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Wings Over Scotland


Bull Bridge

Posted on January 23, 2013 by

We’re unimaginably thrilled to bring you our very first ever official Wings Over Scotland cartoon, composed and drawn by regular reader and commenter Chris Cairns.

We feel like a proper grown-up newspaper now.

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    83 to “Bull Bridge”

    1. Finlay says:

      That’s awesome. Really nice art and captures the debate really well

    2. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      I just LOVE the wee Scottish lion. Small but standing up straight and proud.

    3. William says:

      Excellent cartoon ūüôā
      Although I must say ¬†it’s ironic that people spend hours on here slagging off the Lib/Lab/Con ( quite rightly) yet are happy for Scotland to join the EU post independence. Who wants to be governed by people like Kinnock, Mandleson, Clegg, Brittan, Cameron (?), Ashton, Von Rumpey etc. All on ¬£350k plus expenses.
      Ashton will be our Foreign Secretary yet has never been elected to anything in her puff. 
      The EU corruption ( no audit for 18 years) makes Glasgow Labour look like a modicum of democracy and fair play.
      Scotland would just be another 6 or so empty suits sitting nodding in the EU ‘parliament’. Majorit voting taking away any power we had to protect our fishing rights and oil rights.
      Best to be like Norway which is in the single market as a member of the EFTA yet maintains it’s independence and can decide it’s own destiny and way in the world. Ignoring EU law that makes life more difficult for them but agreeing with laws that they like.

    4. Geoff Huijer says:

      Proper grown up newspapers would report ‘news’…they vanished
      years ago (but I get what you mean!) ūüôā

    5. Seasick Dave says:

      Its a lion?

      I thought that it was Gordon Strachan.

    6. naebd says:

      Excellent.

    7. Bill Fraser says:

      Brilliant, ¬†love it ūüôā
       

    8. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Its a lion? I thought that it was Gordon Strachan.”

      Gordon Strachan IS a lion.

      #COYR

    9. dadsarmy says:

      Great cartoon, but chronologically inaccurate now …

    10. John Lyons says:

      William you make a good point. The whole EU nonsense should never have been about “Can we be in or not?” It should be “Do we¬†WANT to be in or not?”

      If the SNP are right an independant Scotland would be attractive to the EU¬†with all our oil, gas and tidal power. Surely that gives us some negotiation power? But we seem so desperate to be in, it’ll be on thier terms not ours. We should at least be seen to be courting EFTA and publicly be seen to be keeping our options open. The EU would then have to up thier game and offer us something to stop us going off to EFTA.

      I think this is a big issue that should be given more prominence and should have been debated at the conference in a manner similar to NATO.

    11. Marcia says:

      This made me chuckle:

      AngusBMacNeilMP?@AngusMacNeilMP
      Just passed a glum looking Alasdair Darling .. Hope he feels better ūüôā
        

    12. Lewis says:

      Just to say that this lion is absurdly awesome.

    13. Yesitis says:

      Good stuff! I like it, I like it a lot!
       
      Today has been a good day.

    14. Dcanmore says:

      Yup, brilliant!¬† ūüôā

    15. velofello says:

      Great stuff. Neatly expressed message and nicely crafted artwork.

    16. mogabee says:

       
      ¬†If i see ONE horoscope…I’m off…!

    17. Tris says:

      Brilliant cartoon,  and you are a proper grown up newspaper.

    18. Christian Wright says:

      Stuart Campbell wrote:‚ÄúGordon Strachan IS a lion. ”

      Clearly you haven’t been on the Serengeti Plain and eyed truly vicious creatures of tooth and claw. Oh wait! You’ve been to FMQ so maybe you have.

    19. Laura says:

      Brilliant cartoon, love the wee lion too.

      William,
      Scotland would just be another 6 or so empty suits sitting nodding in the EU ‚Äėparliament‚Äô

      It is my understanding that an independent Scotland would have about 13 MEP’s¬†and more importantly¬†none of them would be Unionist MEP’s (currently 4 of the 6) therefore they would all be working¬†in the best interests of Scotland, not rUK.

      I am still undecided on the EU, but I know with Scotland’s¬†resourses, as an independent nation we would have considerable clout at the EU table. Whereas,¬†sadly at present we have¬†little or none.¬†¬†
        

    20. Seasick Dave says:

      I can see this lion appearing on tee shirts…

    21. Marcia says:

      Interesting what some Americans think of Cameron’s ploy.

      http://politicalwire.com/archives/2013/01/23/britain_pledges_referendum_on_european_union.html

         
        

    22. Bert says:

      Laura..as an independent country outside of the EU we would have total control of our destiny. A lot more clout than as an empty suit sitting in a ‘parliament’ of rubber stamping empty suits who most citizens couldn’t name. We can join the single market like Norway if we wish but best to see how we go for the first few years.¬† Europe won’t stop buying our oil and whisky etc if we’re not part of the EU. The EU has an imbalance of trade in favour of China and the far east and they’re not members of the EU.
      William..the SNP doesn’t do irony. I was reading a story in the Courier the other day where our MEP Alyn Smith was bemoaning the fact that the EU wasn’t banning neonicotinoid insecticides which are thought to harm bumble bees. He went on about how Scotland was a world leader in bee conservation etc and we should be listened to and the ban should be hurried up. Someone should have reminded him than an independent Scotland outwith the EU could ban it immediately. Today. Yet he loves the EU and thinks it gives us a bigger say in matters. LOL.

    23. Just been reading a story on the EBC about how the EU won’t discuss particulars with the SG at the moment.¬† Strange then how all these comments from folk supposedly in the know have been used to batter us mercilessly over the past few months.¬† Never mind that though – am I the last person on the planet to realise wee Nicola has her own blog?¬† http://www.scotreferendum.com/blog/¬†if you haven’t already.¬† One for your list, RevStu?

    24. Luigi says:

      Great cartoon. Not quite realistic though: John Bull should be sitting on the bridge that he is threatening to blow up!
       

    25. MajorBloodnok says:

      Nice one Chris!

    26. velofello says:

      For further amusement look into NewsnetScotland’s article “The strange case of Glasgow’s Civic Leader’s apology”. And a 5* for Bambi’s quip.

    27. Aplinal says:

      Let’s not fall into the mistake of also believing everything we read about the EU.¬† For one example, the reason the EU accounts have not passed audit is because of the mismanagement and obfuscation of the MEMBER STATES and nothing to do with the EU/Commission.
       
      Does it need reform?  Of course it does.  But keep things in perspective.

    28. macdoc says:

      O/T some depressing news support; for independence in another poll sits at only 23%. ¬†We have won the arguments, game ,set and match, the evidence that Scotland would be better off independent is so overwhelming its not really arguable. The fact that the majority of people can’t see this is very worriesome. Fear of change,ignorance and the media that is what will lose us this referendum.¬†

    29. Boorach says:

      Excellent cartoon… but where’s the sudoku?

    30. scottish_skier says:

      @Macdoc.

      That’ll be support for a kind of independence that even north Korea can’t manage. Those are your utterly hardcore nothing but super complete independence from everything no matter what lot. Of course, that’s not being asked in 2014. Instead, we’ll be asked about something that looks like devo max, tastes like devo max, even smells like devo max. In fact it’s very hard to tell that its not devo max until you notice the spot of icing and the cherry which makes it independence.

      Don’t be fooled by spin.

      And watch what happens when the Tories start to go ahead in polls. That’ll be the clincher.¬†

    31. pmcrek says:

      Thinking about this, while I am nominally pro-EU or at least EFTA I would fully support a referendum in the EU, however, I wouldnt support a referendum on the EU in which Scotlands entire future in Europe is decided by folks living in England as a side effect of there being far greater numbers of folks living in England.

      I wonder if it may be good for the SNP to say they support an EU referendum but one in which the result is decided by folks in Scotland and not the far larger English electorate…
       

    32. Jeannie says:

      @chris cairns
      Well done, Chris.  Love the wee  lion.

    33. Tearlach says:

      Insightful comment from an Icelandic pal of mine on Facebook.

      ” Rakst √° √ĺetta √° kommentakerfi FT: “The British government seems to think that it can force others to do something by holding a gun to its own head.”¬†

    34. thomas says:

      heres another belter i have just been hit with on a politic forum

      “Support for Scottish independence has fallen dramatically over the last 3 years. Devolution has played a major part of this with two thirds of the population now supporting Devo-Max compared to twenty three percent for independence. However the main reason is money and the failure of the SNP to explain how things will work, indeed they have actively avoided answering any questions about specifics labeling sceptics as anti-Scottish and ("Tractor" - Ed)s. This is understandable because the big strategic questions are as far I can see almost insurmountable, the practicalities and the realities of what an independent Scotland would face are incredibly frightening prospects.¬†

      The biggest economic issue facing any independent Scotland (and indeed the rest of the UK) can be summed up in one word, London. London is the linch pin of the Entire UK economy, every single penny made is entirely dependent upon the profits in the city. There is no such thing as a Scottish economy because none of the money flowing can be separated from the city. It is the city and and its contribution of one third of the UK economy that controls every single penny made everywhere. From the selling of North Sea Oil to weapons manufacturing all is totally reliant on London. Companies from all over the world make their way to that city and it is the home of world finance. Claims of a functioning Scottish economy separate from this behemoth are a nonsense and the idea that companies could be lured away from the LSE to an untried Scottish Exchange are fanciful. There is no way BP and the like will de-list from the LSE, leaving one of the worlds three triple A rated cities to re-list on an untried exchange. If they are going to go through all the expense of leaving London why not re-list on the NY or Hong Kong exchanges? It is unfortunately the activities of the city which underpin all industry in the UK, Scotland is no exception and leaving the UK will not change that as the pension funds and investments both public and private will still all rely on the city. In the face of London any attempt at independence would be nothing but a wax mask. Underneath everything would still rely on England and English wealth. 

      London also represents a geographical problem facing Scotland closely linked with the issue of population. We are a hell of a long way from Europe and our ports and major cities are on the Atlantic coast with much of the country being incredibly sparsely populated. This may seem trivial but it has huge potential consequences. The attraction of supplying goods and services to a country with indirect access to ports and a diffuse population is not very great, due in large part to the massive increase in transport costs associated with shipping through the north sea. At present this is not an issue being part of the UK ensures our attractiveness as a market is based on the entire 60 million not just our few. But in the future as an independent country the majority of our goods would still be shipped first to England and then across an international boarder. We would be an adjunct to any corporate strategy. In the offices of CEO’s the conversation would go “OK now we need to shift 50,000 new bmw’s to England over he next six months. Oh and better throw in a couple for Scotland too”. Right now Scotland is treated as part of the UK, the worlds 5th largest Economy, but post independence because of tax etc we would become to be seen as a small market of a few million people which is bloody hard to get to. We would not have control of our own lines of communication, all our goods would still most likely pass through England and that will drive up he price. Again it comes down to separation of the economies and it still remains to my mind entirely impossible.

      As I have said many times before, I love my nation and proud of where I come from but I just cannot see how an independent Scotland could ever hope to break way financially and economically from England. Without financial independence then political independence is just a mask and I fear would terminally weaken Scotland.

      Convince me I’m wrong…”

      http://www.politicspoliticalforum.com/united-kingdom-politics-political-forum/24080-convince.html

      hope you dont mind me posting a link rev.
      just be intersting hearing various answers to my unionist friend here. 

       
       

    35. Laura says:

      Thank you Bert.

      I know the SDA fully¬†support EFTA, but¬†there must be¬†benefits of full EU membership. I think there is a lot of misinformation surrounding the EU and¬†I should educate myself more on the subject. EFTA sounds good, but there must be some drawbacks too, otherwise it would be more popular. ie wouldn’t the UK government have opted for this years ago if it were to serve us better (by ‘us’ I mean the whole UK as what benefits Scotland is not and never has been¬†in their interest)

    36. thomas says:

      forgot to say great cartoon and enjoying the articles on the site rev.

    37. Bill C says:

      @macdoc – Is that the poll being revealed on Scotland Tonight at 10.30 tonight?

    38. Iain says:

      Good cartoon, very nice drawing.
      Shouldn’t there be a hairy, wee Grahamski lurking under the bridge?

    39. Holebender says:

      Thomas, that post is utterly barking! One simple geography lesson would suffice… all our ports and cities face the Atlantic??? wtf? So Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Dundee have all been moved to the west coast? Leith? Rosyth? Words fail me.

    40. thomas says:

      @ holebender

      i know pal.  He`s a hardcore new labour supporter who is having an apoplectic fit after cameron has just destroyed them  over  europe in the next rump uk election.

      meanwhile its folk like this who continue to try and muddy the minds of the scots people as new labour are sitting on the side lines in both referendum debates .

      i cant help it arguing with these people .

       

    41. Laura says:

      Thomas

         But in the future as an independent country the majority of our goods would still be shipped first to England and then across an international boarder.

      I won’t be the one to answer¬†your questions, but I would hope an independent Scotland would eventually have her own trade routes (ports etc. as we did before the Union only this time without their hindrance) As for our¬†Airports, I doubt we would ever be able to avoid¬†Heathrow entirely, but Scottish Airports would also grow and support demand.¬†

      I would also imagine an oil rich nation like Scotland would not levy the same¬†VAT & Duty on fuel (currently around¬†136% combined) therefore the cost of transportation within Scotland would be greatly reduced, which in turn benefits it’s consumers etc.¬†¬†

    42. Yesitis says:

      I expect to see polls showing lower and lower levels of support for independence as 2013 progresses.
      By Autumn 2013, I expect we will see polls revealing support for independence has slumped to just four people (all unemployed and ex-drug addicts) in Dundee, three people (including a foreigner) in Greenock, a gay couple in Inverness and a Jack Russell in Inverbervie.
      I also expect the BBC to be impartial, and sales of the Scotsman and Herald to increase…

    43. Scott Minto (Aka Sneekyboy) says:

      @Thomas

      FIRSTLY – STOCK EXCHANGES

      No one would ever accept a new stock exchange… ever…

      Just ask the Croations about their CORBEX…

      Besides the fact that companies can choose to list their stocks on any exchanges they want.

      It is the profits on their physical activities within country (that arent being siphoned off through loopholes in tax laws), the income tax and national insurance of their employees and the indirect taxation paid on goods and services they and their employees purchase that make up the economy.

      Suggesting that an independent Scotland would be penniless as companies are listed on stock exchanges elsewhere underscores a VERY poor understanding of the finances of governance.

      Coca Cola is listed in America, does this person believe that they only pay taxation there?

      SECONDLY –¬†THE ECONOMY

      Every single penny “made” in the UK¬†comes from the economic activities of Goods and services companies, manufacturing and anything else that¬†actually makes something.

      Every single penny that the ‘City of London’ makes is merely skimmed from the effort and transactions of other peoples money.¬†Dont get me wrong, this can be good for the UK when the clients are foreign based, but otherwise its just our own money being recycled a different way.

      Scotland is not relient on the city of London, it never has been. We have a diverse economy that includes not only Oil and Gas, but life sciences, videogames, manufacturing, renewable energy, food and drink exports.

      Scotland generates more for the balance of payments deficit than any other part of the UK.

      THIRDLY – PENSIONS

      Pension funds invest money globally. They invest in the currency of those exchanges. They either make money on a transaction, or they dont. In the end they pay back the pension pot converted to the currency of the purchaser. It happens now, it will happen after independence. If Scotland is either using the Pound or tied to the pound it will make bugger all of a difference to private pensions unless they change the rules on taxation and fees.

      FOURTHLY РSHIPPING         

      Scotland has harbours at Edinburgh, Dundee, Aberdeen and Peterhead (to name but a few)that could all see an expansion of their operations.

      Alternatively,  things may just work EXACTLY like they do now with goods transferred by road and rail to ports in England. As long as they remain within the EEA with Scotland then there would be NO IMPORT RESTRICTIONS, CHECKS, TOLLS OR IMPEDIMENTS. In other words, it will make bugger all difference.

      Its not a case of going “oh were in a¬†free trade¬†zone so I must sell stuff to england¬†so they can add a mark up and then sell it to scotland”. Err no… they just¬†drive it through the country, same as an italian selling in belgium.

      Give me a day and I could reference all the articles and treaties that would rip the arse out that¬†‘article’.

      The only real scare story is if the UK leaves the EEA, and not even farage is that stupid. They want out of the political institutions, they still want access to the free market.   

        
         
                   

    44. Marcia says:

      Re the Scottish Social Attitudes Survey. On the Guardian site is says ‘Since the poll was conducted from July to November last year’

      That seems quite a rather long time span for a poll, I expect the Survey as it really is rather than a voting intention poll will give rather contradictory results as before. Devo Max will be get the highest response no doubt but that is now off the table. There has been at least one poll since this survey that had the Yes at 32% and the No at 48%.  So shall we claim a 9% increase in the Yes vote? 

    45. ianbrotherhood says:

      It seems everyone wants to leave everyone else.
      The logical terminus is that the City of London declare itself an independent state and fess-up for what it is – a haven for money-launderers, sociopaths and despots in need of private medical treatment.
      Cameron may feel his ‘no-one likes us, we don’t care’ stance makes him look tough – it does, in the same way that rolling around on a karate mat with Seb Coe, or wearing a baseball cap, made William The Hague look well-‘ard.
      ‘You’re avin’ a giraffe mate, intcha?’¬†

    46. pmcrek says:

      @thomas
      The SNP, Yes Scotland, Greens et al.. have all been outlining in detail there picture of an independent Scotland from the big picture right down to the detail, for example the SNP produced a detailed draft of suggested defence spending recently. You could ask your unionist commentor if he has any particular questions for example that you could help find the answer too.
      On the London example, yes London’s GDP is enormous and many businesses are headquartered there however to compare it to the gravity of a supermassive blackhole is erroneous,¬† its only just over half as rich in GDP as New York is for example, yet Toronto, Montreal and Ottowa more than happily exist in an independent Canada some 340 odd miles away (like Glasgow London) and some might say in a far happier manner than many New Yorkers e.g.
      Inequality adjusted HDI:
       
      8th Canada 0.812
      12th United States 0.799
      23rd United Kingdom 0.766
       
      To further the comparison, the U.S. is of course also Canada’s largest trade partner (50%) as England is Scotland’s, however unlike Canada and contrary to the assertion in the persons comment, Scotland has very easy, free access to a far larger trading block than England is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Community. Remember, unlike in Canada, one of the largest continental trade hubs, Amsterdam, is only 1h 30 mins away by plane, an hour or so closer than London.
      Yet, UK trade and industry policy is focused currently on London being the only hub. In other words our lack of “political” independence from London endangers our economy and potential growth in many ways more than independence would.
      To conclude I would say, of course economically we will always be tied to our largest neighbour in some fashion, however this does not necessarilly mean we have to be tied politically also, we should ask ourselves, do you think Canada would rather become politically a state(s) of the USA or maintain its independence?
      The last poll that asked this question in Canada returned a 92% No:
      http://www.annexation.ca/reports/2004%20Leger%20Marketing%20-%20Canada%20US%20Relations.pdf
      Further, despite this hostility to union with the US, the same survey shows not surprisingly the Free Trade Association in Canada with the US is very popular with Canadian citizens. I dont see why our relationship with England needs be any different, we have far less control over our economy today than we would post independence what matters more, at least to me, is how we actually distribute our vast the wealth, the UK is now the fourth most unequal OECD country in the world. More modest Canada however is coping far better with inequality than either the UK or the USA.
      https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:shW_fqexa8IJ:www.oecd.org/els/socialpoliciesanddata/47723414.pdf+&hl=en&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjWSx3JlIDQwbtOksc3ybAhnENunJh7EScjISLf8-4vhll-qCnPcAdk219ddezUZAAPxJiyjulqhskU1QtFYsYcx_ZnxyIp2pTBWh8Eu3gbwoBsHQ_i6IxEj9Qfpo0EoboP45kz&sig=AHIEtbSSo9cJzi_38a_vPJxXfuVyZEuuVQ
       
      (PS sorry if this ends up double post :S)

    47. thomas says:

      @ laura @scott and @pmcrek

      many thanks for your great replies .

    48. pmcrek says:

      @thomas
      Please let us know how you get on, it sounds like they may be willing to at least listen ūüôā

    49. Marcia says:

      from twitter: Pete Wishart
      Hearing of all sorts of fall outs and disagreements in “better together” on Europe tonight. Not a happy “No” camp.

    50. pmcrek says:

      @Marcia


      I bet the 23% result is from a 4 or possibly 5 question poll in the SAS i.e.

       
      Independence 23%

      Devo Max 43%

      Status Quo 15%

      No Devolution 5%
      Dont Know 14%
       
      The Guardian have previous for misleading S.A.S. headlines 
      http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/dec/05/scottish-back-independence-price-survey
      Current Headline:
      Nearly two-thirds of Scots in favour of independence but support dependent on whether it would improve prosperity
      Quote:
      This article was amended on 14 December 2011. The original sub-heading said: Nearly a third of Scots in favour of increasing Scotland’s powers but support dependent on whether it would improve prosperity.

    51. Cameron says:

      I’m with William, John Lyons and Bert on this one. I do not see the point in fighting so hard for the chance to create a New Jerusalem here in Scotland, just so that we can be dictated to by the wholly undemocratic EU Commission. Then there is the elephant in the room, that is the European Stability Mechanism. That is even less transparent and unaccountable than the Commission, and is above legal objection or sanction by member nations (i.e. Eurozone countries).
       
      It is a pity that UKIP seem to have claimed opposition to the EU as their own stomping ground, as I do not think they are concerned with the “common good”. Instead, I think their objection comes from their fear that the EU will present a barrier to more laissez faire economics and more voodoo banking. Then again, I doubt the Germans wouldn’t stand for their economy being inflated out of existence again.
       
      As others have asserted, there is a lot of disinformation surrounding the EU, which deserves a far less partisan investigation. I have begun my own, but this video might get your own going. I didn’t think Rodney was trying to compete with his brother on the comedy stage, so I checked his allegations myself. Part of me wishes I hadn’t now. Remember, fascism isn’t a particular set of political policies, it is a philosophical outlook. One that centralizes power and de-humanises society. I would suggest that the current orthodoxy of Atlanticism best expresses this philosophy in the modern context. This philosophy is embodied in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO).
       

      Sorry for being a pedant, but the lion doesn’t represent Scotland, it represents the monarchy. Still a good cartoon and message though.

    52. Marcia says:

      pmcrek

      What I find encouraging in the Guardian article that has been pulled is:

      The study found that support for greater powers for the Scottish parliament within the UK, including control over welfare and taxation, appears to have grown as the most popular option. It said 56% wanted to run taxation and 64% the welfare system. Two-thirds want Holyrood to control nearly all Scotland’s affairs.

           

    53. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Sorry for being a pedant, but the lion doesn‚Äôt represent Scotland, it represents the monarchy.”

      In a cartoon it represents whatever the heck the cartoonist wants it to represent.

    54. Cameron says:

      @ Rev. Stu
       
      Sorry for posting the video, I meant to post the link.
       
      Please remove it if you like and I can try posting the link again

    55. Cameron says:

       
      I did say it was a good cartoon, I’m just not a monarchist.

    56. pmcrek says:

      @Marcia,
      I believe Scottish Skier has outlined a few times in the past that what the SNP are aiming for is that the referendum is essentially going to look like Independence in a Devo Max suit (or vice versa). This would be a very attrative proposition to the electorate, as I remember from previous S.A.S surveys, the only sticking point to a probable 60+% yes vote is Defence and Foreign Affairs.
      With this in mind, TAofMoridura uploaded an interesting video recently to youtube of the esteemed David Schaffer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Scheffer) a diplomat if ever there was one. Some of his comments regarding the UN Security Council seat are very interesting. With Scottish Skiers predictions in mind I wonder if there may be a possible deal rwith the UK on Defence & Foreign Affairs that takes the edge off the skepticism.

    57. Cameron says:

      @pmcrek
       
      There is nothing I want more than independence, but not at any cost.

    58. pmcrek says:

      @Cameron
      I understand, for me Scotland being in charge of her own Defence & Foreign Affairs is one of the main reasons I support independence. However I am also willing to compromise with the¬† gradualist approach. In all seriousness, if the referendum offered us Independence with a suggested cooperation agreement of some form on some matters of defence and foreign affairs with the rUK, for example NATO membership, strategic bases, continued maneuveurs etc.. I’ll still vote yes. I’ll still vote yes because it means we are moving in the right direction, even if I personally dont think it is quick enough.

       
      Note, one addendum, I may reconsider if it meant Trident remaining on the Clyde indefinetly however, but I see no possible outcome in which the SNP would betray the electorate over Trident, they just wouldnt do it over those bombs and if it adds any gravitas to my statement, I say that as a Green voter.

    59. Cameron says:

      @ pmcrek
       
      I’m afraid a gradualist approach is almost certainly the most appropriate and probable approach. There has to be a clearly defined time-limit though, with absolutely no wriggle room.
       
      I think we also need Public Inquiries in to EU and NATO membership. They are the terrible twins and can not be considered separately, IMO. Non-aligned reluctant voter.

    60. pmcrek says:

      @Cameron
      I would certainly support referenda on the EU and NATO post independence, I would consider myself pro-EU however. Recently I have been considering that my stance on the EU is predicated on the fact that some of what the EU has done has benifited Scotland greatly  as simply without them those decision would be being made (badly) by Westminster instead.
      However, I do also feel we owe our European brethren somewhat because of this, as such I am happy to give the EU an honest go if out of nothing else then out of graditude. The beauty of Independence is we can always pull out later if its not working out for Scotland.

    61. Cameron says:

      @ pmcrek
       
      I do not want to come over all “conspiracy theory”, but I strongly urge you to research the origins of the EU.¬† As to a share of the costs and benefits, I am sure we have enough accountants and lawyers to take care of that. Some arrangements are more permanent than others. I would hate a newly independent Scotland to bind itself in unbreakable bondage.

    62. Keith B says:

      @thomas
       
      Got as far as the bit about BP. I don’t know what this individual thinks is the link between Scottish independence and BP (as they were cited) leaving the LSE for a Scottish exchange. Why would they, it would merely be another intance of what is normal day to day life for BP – being an international oil company.
       
      BP, as well as being listed on the London Stock Exchange, is also listed on the New York and Frankfurt exchanges.

      http://www.bp.com/extendedsectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9026517&contentId=7048504

    63. pmcrek says:

      FYI for anybody who hasnt found it, here is the SAS independence question being referred to:
      http://www.natcen.ac.uk/media/1021490/ssa12briefing.pdf
      Its a 4 option question however it omits devo max and status quo for just “Devolution”, results are:
      Independence 23%
      Devolution 61%
      No Devolution 11%
      Dont Know 5%
      The main question wrt the referendum this raises imo is? What exactly is the breakdown of the 61% when asked only the question if they agree Scotland should be an independent country? If under half of those 61% devolutionist say yes in 2014, we’ve won.
       

    64. Cameron says:

      @ Keith B
       
      Sounds like you are an oil man?

    65. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Its a 4 option question however it omits devo max and status quo for just ‚ÄúDevolution‚ÄĚ, results are:
      Independence 23%
      Devolution 61%
      No Devolution 11%
      Dont Know 5%”

      That’s mad. “Devolution” could be interpreted as meaning almost anything. Counting everyone who voted for that as a No in the referendum is just bonkers. I had no idea it was quite such a vague question.

    66. pmcrek says:

      @Rev
      Yeah it is a bit barmy, wait! I’ve just looked at the figures again, this is hilarious… I was looking to compare to the 2011 results, and thats odd, the 2011 results were as follows apparently:
      Independence 32%
      Devolution 58%
      No devolution 6%
      Dont Know 5%

      Thats 101% am I missing something?

       

    67. Angus McLellan says:

      @thomas: It’s always worth remembering that Scotland won’t be the first part of the UK to leave. The Irish did it first and in much less auspicious circumstances in every sense. And lots has been written about Ireland.
      When the Irish Free State came into existence, 98% (!) of its exports went to the UK. Even as late as 1950 that was over 90%. It wasn’t until the days of low corporation tax and lots of exports in the form of “transfer pricing” (i.e. electronic money trade, not physical goods) that the US overtook the UK to become Ireland’s largest trading partner. So at a first look, it seems as if Scotland today trades as much with the rUK as Ireland did maybe 30-40 years ago. I think that means that our economy is quite well integrated into the world economy, which makes us quite unlike poor (in every sense) Ireland in 1923.
      More numbers and some formulas, if you like that kind of thing, here (Thom & Walsh, The Effect of a common currency on trade: Ireland before and after the sterling link): http://irserver.ucd.ie/bitstream/handle/10197/712/thomr_workpap_002.pdf?sequence=1

    68. ianbrotherhood says:

      Call Kaye ‘doing’ the SAS later this morning…the trailer pretty much gives the game away – support for independence is the lowest in ten years…more people are worried about independence than ever before…

    69. Macart says:

      Nice work Chris. ūüôā¬†

    70. Steve says:

      A weakened rUK having to re-negotiate as a successor state in two years could clearly be brought to heal easily by other EU member states.   In which case Cameron, and even Labour, are crazy not to renegotiate asap whilst the polls for independence still give the impression the UK will continue to exist in its current form in 2015.   This move by Cameron may well smooth the path for Scotland as other EU member states seek to cement their upper hand over Westminster.   The rUK will actually need support from Scotland during any negotiations Рnot only with the EU but also to retain a permanent seat on the Security council etc etc.

      Wee Scotland holds the lions-share of the cards!

    71. Barontorc says:

      Call Kay(e)’s SAS discussion was put properly to bed by Blair Jenkin’s who said it was an old survey done between April and November last year and that has seen other fresher surveys show much more significant pro- independence support since it was done. And as can be seen in comments here it didn’t even ask the devolution question correctly. In fact what’s the point of including any opinion on devolution, when the option question has been excluded by the UK government? Stuff and nonsense and typical of Kaye Adams anti-fare.

      If the 61% was offered YES or NO, would the outcome be for NO.? Ooops!

      BTW – loved the cartoon and if that wee lion ain’t Gordon Strachan – I’ll eat my hat!

    72. Elizabeth says:

      Re Call Kaye – Blair Jenkins was great but so was Dorothy Grace Elder when she talked about what a ‘No’ vote would mean – ‘Scotland would get ‘hammered” she said.
      Love the cartoon and that intrepid perky lion:) Well done Craig.

    73. Elizabeth says:

      Oops wrong name! I meant Chris

    74. CEMarshall says:

      LOVE the comic. BTW, Chris, what’s the lion’s name? He’s definitely got potential. And Rev., for Wings to really seem like a grown-up paper, you need a crossword.¬†

    75. Angus McLellan says:

      I should correct my previous comment on trade, According to this – http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0041/00412570.pdf and some fiddling with Excel – Scotland-rUK trade is probably as important today (66% of volume) as Ireland-UK trade was circa 1972. So that would be around 40 years ago and not 30-40-ish. Close, yes, but no banana.
       

    76. Seasick Dave says:

      The lion has got to be called Hamish because we’re erm, not home yet ūüėČ

    77. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “The lion has got to be called Hamish because we‚Äôre erm, not home yet ;)”

      I endorse this event or product.

    78. CEMarshall says:

      Looks like it’s settled. More Hamish the Lion, please.

    79. FreddieThreepwood says:

      Ahem …

      One had intended to remain all artistically aloof from this – not to mention intriguingly ¬†anonymous – but since everyone seems determined to force this bleedin’ lion on me – AND call him Hamish – I feel obliged to break cover.
      ‘Hamish’ was intended mostly as an affectionate nod to the ‘Feart Lion’ of the late Jim Turnbull’s cartoons in the Herald in the 1970s – though I was determined to make him more confident than that!

      I can see now I’m going to have to think up more scenarios for the wee fella … and find out¬†what a lion looks like from the front.¬†

      Anyway – thank you all for your kind words. Anybody want to pay me for this shit?
       

    80. CEMarshall says:

      Hey, if Hamish’s (or whatever you want to call him) front is as cute as his back, you’ll have started something big, maybe even Oor Wullie big. I could definitely see him in either a hang glider or strap-on angel’s wings being towed above Holyrood as a occasional Wings banner and/or a poster. And couldn’t you just picture him in Tartan Army gear (with an “AYE” and a 14 on the back of his jersey)?¬†
      As for getting paid, check with the Rev. about selling posters and Ts at the Wings Megastore.  

    81. Seasick Dave says:

      CE

      I could definitely see him in either a hang glider or strap-on…

      For a moment I wasn’t sure where that was going.¬†

      Anyway, lets hope we see more of him. 



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