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Blind pig finds truffle

Posted on May 17, 2020 by

In a shock finding that’s sure to provoke soul-searching and recriminations at SNP HQ, it appears that the Scottish Government actually has a new policy that’s backed by a majority of the Scottish public.

Honestly, we were as surprised as you.

In our latest Panelbase poll, respondents supported the idea of giving every citizen a Universal Basic Income during the coronavirus pandemic by a margin of 4:1, and were also in favour of adopting the measure permanently by 2:1.

To absolutely nobody’s amazement, the concept – which has been subject to many successful trials – was most welcomed by SNP, Labour and Yes voters and the less-well-off, and most opposed by Tories, Lib Dems, Unionists and the wealthy.

And just while we’re tidying up the last of the poll findings, alert readers may recall our frequently observing that when conducting opinion polling you can get 5-10% of people to vote for just about anything, up to and probably including “Would you like us to come round to your house right now and shoot you in the face?”

In support of that theory, this:

Almost one-tenth of our respondents – the largest group of them Tories, but at least 5% of every other party’s voters too, including the SNP – were happy to say either that they preferred clapping the NHS to funding it properly, or that they didn’t know which of the two options was the best.

Some of these people live in your street, folks. Think about that.

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    1. 17 05 20 14:58

      Blind pig finds truffle | speymouth

    193 to “Blind pig finds truffle”

    1. Den Cairns says:

      By all means clap the NHS but never forget those Tory fluckers who were on the brink of privatising it – or still will. You hear me County Engerlandshire?

    2. The Isolator says:

      Interesting results….and 3-2-1 it’s the Pete & Joe show.Yayyyyyy.

    3. Bob Mack says:

      There are always oddballs. Very intense research indicates clearly you will always have a percentage of folk who are so disenfranchised by life they will take a destructive view of everything.

      Just like Joe who now posts poison on this forum.

    4. Geordie says:

      Surely the clappers and DKs in the final question are – potentially – expressing a preference for a privatised health care system funded by e.g. insurance? ‘Properly funded’ suggests state funded to me and the question doesn’t allow the privatised option to be expressed.

    5. Heaver says:

      Folk across the street from me get the Daily Heil. But they’re excellent neighbours, we’re often helping each other. I’ve had quite a few debates with him about all sorts of things and I’m beginning to suspect hes a Holocaust denier. But they’ve been so kind, one time especially, no hesitation to help even at considerable cost of time and petrol to them.

      I think the thing is its easy to hate and fear people you’ve never met, if you’re told lies about them all the time. God I despise that rag, but I cant despise its readers.

    6. Republicofscotland says:

      The SNP are attempting appear as a competent government, without the real desire for independence. I and many others voted for them first and foremost to achieve independence, sadly they’ve let us down on that main goal.

      I think they’re trying to appeal to the majority on the UBI, which I think is a good thing. Keep the majority happy and they’ll vote for you again and again, and you’ll remain in government, as long as you make the right noises on independence but don’t actually do anything significant to achieve it.

      This virus has been a boon for Sturgeon, her stock has risen and the Sturgeonites and those who normally wouldn’t praise her have. A few right noises about independence next year and she and her party look set to do well, though hopefully not in the list votes.

      Independence looks further away than ever.

    7. ahundredthidiot says:

      Which is why I don’t stand out there clapping – it achieves absolutely nothing for the NHS, makes neighbours suspicious of those who don’t clap and is a form of pavlovs dogs experiment by the MSM to assess just how gullible people are!

    8. ahundredthidiot says:

      There are always oddballs. Very intense research indicates clearly you will always have a percentage of folk who are so disenfranchised by life they will take a destructive view of everything.

      Just like Bob Mack who now posts poison on this forum.

    9. velofello says:

      A privately funded health care service could be an option Georgie – provided a UBI system is in place – to enable people to pay for their health insurance… Eh? Did I get that correct?

      And to ensure that people pay for their health insurance the subscription is deducted at source from their UBI…Eh?

      Privatisation implies competition, and yet scanning across say, new car prices, prices for a category such as a one litre hatchback are pretty close. There are options, much more expensive luxury models are available, again, prices pretty close. Would “market forces” lead to similar options in a privatised health care system?

    10. Famous15 says:

      They live in my street. Those having hearing difficulty, those with eyesight problems those with the many issues which make it a problem to understand that which is obvious to most of us.

      They are my neighbours and I still respect them.

      Not a good look I reluctantly say Stu.

    11. ahundredthidiot says:

      sorry Bobby – I just couldn’t resist!

    12. dakk says:

      People with private health cover won’t want to pay more to NHS as they are/think they are already paying twice.

      There are I’m alright jacks in all parties.

    13. Mike d says:

      Private health care all good in theory. But when you have pre-existing medical conditions,its goodnight Vienna.

    14. Mike d says:

      Private health cover isn’t about the treatment, its about the profit.

    15. Muscleguy says:

      A UBI would also be cheaper and easier to administer than UC and jobseeker’s allowance thus saving a lot of money on admin and qualification assessment. If it is essentially to be paid as the income tax allowance then it can be administered as part o the tax system. If you are working you get it as the tax allowance if not as a payment.

    16. Scozzie says:

      Oh FFS how about all those peeps get treated for their illnesses in claps – see how long they live!

      And if those who disagree in properly funding the NHS because they’re the ‘am alight jacks’ they’re in for a rude awakening of a privitised system.

      Here in Oz we’re semi public / private. And there is no private health insurance policy that provides total 100 % coverage – mostly there are out-of-pockets fees for hospital / surgical care and it can run into the thousands $$$ depending on the policy and the surgery / illness. That is why people are cancelling or not even bothering to take out private health insurance in their droves and the public system is struggling as a result.

      Keep the NHS it’s not perfect but it’s way better than going private. Look to Cuba – fully funded and world class health service. Yes, their population is small but they invest heavily in their doctors, nurses and healthcare system. Not bad for a country that’s been under a trade embargo by its closest neighbour for decades.

    17. Sarah says:

      Phew – something we can all agree on, even the Blue Tories. I wish those same folk would apply the same thinking/feeling to every other issue. What a pleasant country we would be living in.

      UBI is a no brainer, of course – those on lower incomes will spend it on necessities thus supporting businesses, and those who don’t need it will be paying tax on it.

      A blessed side effect is an end to the denigration of those on benefit, and to the awful cruelty and inefficiency of Universal Credit.

    18. Joe says:

      Im all for permanent UBI. If someone can sit down and do the maths on paper for me.

      Approaches:
      – Are we taxing?
      – Are we printing/summoning the money digitally each period (week/month)?

      Consequences id like explained away:
      – inflation. Why wont prices for everything increase to the point that the UBI isnt actually giving people more purchasing power than they had before?
      – without the effect of inflation being mitigated how does this help anyone who pays any taxes or even their own bills?
      – without the effect of inflation being mitigated how does this help those who no longer receive normal benefit?
      – without the effect of inflation being mitigated how do we stop our currency from constantly losing value compared to others making our import expense ever more expensive?

      How will the effect of inflation be dealt with politically?:
      – more taxes?
      – more money printing?
      – more money for everyone?

      Its at this point I leave Scottish Nationalists to their socialist fantasies. Im quite glad as the Covid-1984 situation was getting on my tits.

      When you get UBI working without continual currency devaluation, loss of business/jobs and general economic hell then im in for a pink Unicorn also. Some people prefer a Pegasus for transport but i still don’t have kids, so its not an issue.

      Look on the bright side – once everything in Scotland is worth pennies in real money (currencies that haven’t been completely devalued) at least anyone who held their savings in an other currency/commodity/stock can come in and get things on the cheap.

    19. Millennium says:

      ROBBO

      Another fully paid up member of Capella’s Scottish Flat Earth Society (Sturgeon apologists)

      You seem to come down quite heavily on contributors who don’t agree with your view of the world.

      I actually believe the World is not flat.

      You should have a look Robbo, it’s always good to have a look at the other side of your opinion.

      Or are you the site’s big bad bully boy?

      Bovver boots on and the sleeves rolled up, ready to stamp on any piece of trash who has the temerity to say a bad word about your Nicola.

      Well I will continue to post my thoughts on Sturgeon’s leadership of the SNP,,,or lack of it, and quietly and politely tell you to,,,,,Fuck Off ya fuckin wanker.

    20. Stuart MacKay says:

      Rev. You left out one question:

      Q: Which of the following describes best the concept of Universal Basic Income?

      A. Don’t Know.

      As far as UBI is concerned I think it’s a good idea but I am not entirely sure a newly independent Scotland would be in a great position to introduce it. Too many other problems that need fixing first before things would be sufficiently stable to make that move.

      Methinks, this is a just another jam tomorrow idea thrown out there either to show how cool they are.

    21. Millennium says:

      Mike d

      Turn “off” the “Location” sender on your phone.

      If that is “on” then they know exactly where you are every minute of the day.

    22. Oneliner says:

      ‘Blind pig finds truffle’ – eh?
      Who’s your headline writer?

    23. robbo says:

      Millennium says:
      17 May, 2020 at 3:38 pm
      ROBBO

      I left you a wee present on other thread now,bye bye.

      Oh feck just scene another squirrel

    24. callmedave says:

      Shock poll result. 🙂 Something to agree on.

      BBC figures today + SUN

      Scotland……….today……09…….Total…..2103…BBC
      Wales………….today……12…….Total…..1203…BBC
      N. Ireland……..today……03…….Total……476…BBC
      England………..today……90…….Total….24617…BBC
      ===========================================================
      UK ……………today (no data)…..Total…*34555..*SUN

    25. Mist001 says:

      It’s all fantasy. An independent Scotland couldn’t have afforded to furlough the people laid off due to Corona recently, let alone afford to pay UBI indefinitely. Where are they getting the money? It won’t be from the sales of oil, that’s for sure and there’s not enough people in Scotland to pay for it through taxation.

      UBI can only be implemented if Scotland remains a part of the UK. It simply doesn’t have the economic income otherwise.

      UBI is a good idea and should have been implemented as soon as possible once the Coronavirus effect had begun to snowball but it’s the very antithesis of Tory ideology, so it’s not likely to happen.

    26. robbo says:

      Mist001 says:
      17 May, 2020 at 3:54 pm

      Aw na Dr Gloom appear with the, too wee,too poor ,too stupid manta again!

      My nap time , bye, bye. Have fun folks.

    27. Pete says:

      Bob Mack
      Just noticed that ms Freeman has acknowledged that, as yet, no contact tracers have been hired.
      Apparently, some NHS staff have been allocated to the project but none of the applicants have been hired.
      Seems Carlaw was correct.

    28. Millennium says:

      ROBBO

      Me thinks you are trying to impress other members of your Flat Earth Society so you can push Capella under a bus and you can become El Presidente

      A bit like Sturgeon, you want to become the all powering, Numero uno

      I personally think you are just a wee insignificant roaster.

    29. Bob Mack says:

      Where does Westminster find the money?

      Oh, that’s right. It will be us who pays what they have borrowed. If only Scotland could have done that themselves eh?

    30. Bob Mack says:

      @Pete

      Better tell the staff of the pilot scheme in Fife this week eh?

    31. dakk says:

      Mike d @

      Private health care
      ‘But when you have pre-existing medical conditions,its goodnight Vienna.’

      Not only that,when things go wrong (from botched hair transplants in Turkey,to botched knee and hip replacements in private hospitals here),they in up requiring NHS emergency or corrective treatment care.

    32. Bob Mack says:

      @Ahundredtheidiot,

      “Sorry folks I couldn’t resist”.

      Can a dog stop eating even when it’s full?

    33. Pete says:

      Bob Mack
      I’m just reading the BBC report on what she said.
      Yes, a pilot is in Fife but are you sure that these folks you know are new recruits and not existing NHS workers?

    34. Bob Mack says:

      @Pete,

      What difference ? They are acting and being employed as tracers.

    35. Pete says:

      Bob Mack
      Freeman states that 600 additional NHS staff have been allocated to the project but NO contact tracers have yet been appointed.
      Do you agree?

    36. Republicofscotland says:

      “It’s all fantasy. An independent Scotland couldn’t have afforded to furlough the people laid off due to Corona recently, let alone afford to pay UBI indefinitely. Where are they getting the money? It won’t be from the sales of oil, that’s for sure and there’s not enough people in Scotland to pay for it through taxation.”

      Mist001.

      I thought you would be bright enough to know that borrowing is what makes the world go round, and a independent Scotland would be no different from any other independent nation which borrows.

    37. Confused says:

      hmmm …

      “popular” sounds like “populist”, which according to reddit is a dogs-whistle for “far alt right extremism”

      – obviously we must : shut it down

      tell me more of this “getting shot in the face” policy?

      – are we talking shotgun, or pistol … these are the questions we must ask about getting shot in the face in an indy scotland – do we have enough shotguns, whose shotguns will we use – can we use english shotguns …

      no, clearly an indy scotland would be utterly unprepared to shoot everyone in the face – which is why I say : STAY WITH THE UNION

      GETTING SHOT IN THE FACE TOGETHER, IN UNION

    38. Bob Mack says:

      @Pete,

      The staff are mainly ,I think you will find, experts in the field who for obvious reasons have limited current workload.Ie Health Visitors who are extremely skilled in such an endeavour. They have available time due to school closures etc. There are other NHS specialists in the same position.I suspect full time remit will follow a successful pilot.

    39. Bob Mack says:

      @Confused,

      Yes I am?

    40. Golfnut says:

      @ Pete.

      Is it me your looking for.

      So actually I was right the first time then, the hiring process which only started a couple of weeks back and doesn’t finish until the 22nd May isn’t complete. There are reasons for that of course, applications, interviews, due diligence on criminal records etc.
      However, thankfully the SG didn’t wait for the hiring and training to be completed, instead they launched several trials starting in Fife, tomorrow, reviewing the procedures for tests,tracing,isolation and not forgetting the support structures( thanks for the reminder ahundredthidiot) before full implementation across Scotland.
      You think criticism of the SG is justified because the recruitment process hasn’t yet been completed before the closing date for application has been reached, is that where we are.

    41. Millennium says:

      I take great pleasure in watching english business leaders like the CBI greetin on live TV about how english businesses will go to the wall if we don’t all get back to work (and school) in the very near future.

      It will be primetime viewing watching the “City” slip into the Thames.

      There was an english business leader on this morning telling english parents to get their kids back to school, saying it will be perfectly safe.

      They are getting desperate now, they see their millions of pounds in profits slipping through their slimy fingers.

      The day england is officially declared skint, is the day I will stand at my window and clap, endlessly.

    42. Graeme says:

      Only fools and children criticize a job half done, which one are you Pete ?

    43. Republicofscotland says:

      Ah schadenfreude, I know I shouldn’t but Paul Sweeney is a pr#ck of a man.

      http://archive.is/Ysx2t

    44. ahundredthidiot says:

      Bob Mack @ 4:13

      That’s fighting talk, Bob, which ain’t worth shit from a keyboard tough guy.

      Take a day off from yourself – it’s Sunday.

    45. Mist001 says:

      I suppose Scotland could always borrow the money for UBI from rUK. I never thought of that.

    46. Bob Mack says:

      @ahundredtheidiot,

      Sounds like your down and out for the count pal.

      However I’ll try to stop shaking as I type my rrrreeeepppllly.

      Please Mr Idiot don’t worry me so much. Ha h ha ha.

    47. Graeme says:

      Mist001 says:
      17 May, 2020 at 4:49 pm

      I suppose Scotland could always borrow the money for UBI from rUK. I never thought of that.

      —————————————————————

      Alternatively we could just stop subsiding England

    48. Confused says:

      not falling for my subtle unionist propaganda bob? (oh darn – if it werent for you pesky kids we’d have gotten away with it)

      – its a standard unionist stratagem, argue because of “uncertainty”, that

      anything at all, in an indy scotland will be “impossible”

      – “these are the questions we need to answer” (copyright Willie Rennie)

      even shooting ourselves in the face; I mean, we probably wont have enough shotguns, our share of UK supplies won’t cover it and we will need to import.

      also – who will do the shooting – will we do it ourselves – won’t that overwhelm the NHS; maybe we should “flatten the shooting curve” by shooting ourselves in tranches over a longer period …

      and remembering the whole thing would be derailed unless – TRANS people have the same access to shotgun rights in an indy scotland; they have the genital mutilation rights but must not be denied facial mutilation too

      there’s the general theme of being willingly complicit in your own degradation, stockholm syndrome, masochistic sexuality, the scottish cringe …

      – but anyway, its just not funny when you have to explain it; so, as the advocate said to the judge : you may be none the wiser, but at least you are better informed

    49. Bob Mack says:

      @Confused,

      Have you been at the table wine already?

    50. Republicofscotland says:

      ” I suppose Scotland could always borrow the money for UBI from rUK. I never thought of that.”

      Actually if Scotland stopped serving Westminster debts on its nukes and nuclear subs, and English infrastructure etc we’d have a bit of extra capital.

      Of course dumping this ball and chain of a union once and for all is the only real way forward for Scotland.

    51. Famous15 says:

      This site is infested with Unionist apologists, triumphalists ,troublemakers ,hired indy haters,cheats,loud mouths ,scots denigrators and comic singers.

      And they are doing it deliberately .

    52. Colin Alexander says:

      I have long supported a Universal Basic Income and tax system based on individuals, not couples.

      As the couples system has socially engineered family split ups because stable relationships face lower incomes (or criminalised) if they are poorer on low incomes, but financially rewarded if they are better off.

      Means-testing encourages fraud and discourages poorer people trying to better themselves financially through working.

      However, whenever the SNP take a good idea, a popular idea among the general population, it takes so long, is watered down so much, and done only partially to appease the interest groups (usually the wealthy), it ends up that little is changed. It becomes little more than window dressing.

      Like indy and Scottish sovereignty, the SNP talk the talk but, bend the knee to the Evil Empire.

    53. Pete says:

      Bob Mack and Golfnut
      All I’m saying is that Carlaw was correct.
      I happily offered you an apology in advance but now that I have found the facts, I am withdrawing it.

    54. Pete says:

      Famous 15
      I can almost see the tears coming out of your eyes.
      You’re only upset because you have never been able to look outside your SNP bubble.
      Get a grip, man.

    55. Bob Mack says:

      @Famous15,

      I must admit I do like that word “infested” When Joe and ahundredthe__idiot ( my emphasis) post you do get the imagery of a parasitic body.

      Still it’s understandable they should try to minimise Wings given that others are being taken out one by one. Prioderm won’t kill them, but the truth just might

    56. Bob Mack says:

      PS,

      Add Joe to that list.!!!

    57. Colin Alexander says:

      What happened to the SNP’s near to cost-price electricity tariff we were promised in 2017 ?

    58. Bob Mack says:

      @Colin Alexander,

      You just remembered ?

    59. Graeme says:

      Can an independent Scotland fund UBI? I don’t know I’m not an economist I’m a motor mechanic how the fuck would I know, but if better educated people than me like Shona Robson say it’s possible I’m happy to believe it,

      But when you get some wanker like Mist who instantly dismisses the idea telling us we’re too poor and we’d Englands help what does that tell me ?

      It tells me he’s not only a wanker he’s a unionist wanker because no matter how smart he thinks he is he doesn’t know any better than me or anyone else on this forum if it’s viable or not.

      He might be right he might be wrong but he’s no Scot if he was he’d one of those so called Scots Cunningham Graham described as lacking in imagination and therefor our enemy

    60. Bob Mack says:

      @Colin Alexander,
      Sorry Colin,I was being flippant, but I guess it went the same way in 2017, as the one a certain Mr Salmond promised in 2011 .He remains my hero though.

    61. Andrew Morton says:

      I don’t clap, it scares the hell out of the cat.

    62. Golfnut says:

      It didn’t take long for the ‘explain’ how UBI will work, how we can afford it, what about inflation etc,ad nauseam. Takes me back to 2014, I’m surprised nobody has asked what currency we’ll use.
      What’s more important at this stage are the objectives, these will determine tax, social support( benefits), Pensions, wages. If UBI is high enough, it will probably impact on current work practices,i.e. shared jobs, 3day week etc. Two of the objectives will undoubtedly be 1) lift people out poverty, 2) Social well-being.

      Forget the finance, Scotland can well afford to make this change, in fact we can’t afford not to. If we are serious about change, if we are serious about not going back Westminsters vision of normality, UBI is the way forward.
      Westminster is currently threatening to stop funding for furlough payments if Scotland refuses to end Lockdown in line with England. That’s the normal they want us to go back to.

    63. mogabee says:

      Aye, you can lead a blind pig to the forest but after that you just have to cull the stupidest ones or else they’ll starve!

      UBI being the natural progression of a country which wants to help it’s population in difficult times. More and more being considered by the more progressive countries and despite the financially illiterate on here makes a lot of sense particularly in a pandemic environment.

      Good for them I say…

    64. mogabee says:

      Absolutely spot on Golfnut. 😀

    65. These buisness men women are so greedy they want to risk ordinary people’s life’s to continue making their profits do they not realize that the most important thing in life is people no people no customers no business I say to them that the day the first life was lost the price became to high and I wonder if they still have the cheek to go to church ??? Sorry daft question of course they do

    66. bipod says:

      Is it really still correct to call it the national health service? The NHS in scotland has completely stopped treating patients with cancer, heart disease etc… It has shut down all dentistry, you can’t even get private medical treatment anymore if you were that way inclined. It sent many of the so called bed blockers (many of them having covid) to care homes to make space for a deluge of covid patients that never arrived, arguable causing the outbreaks we have seen in those places. It has made a complete mess of testing with its fully centralised approach, I note that the testing capacity in Scotland was recently doubled with the opening of one lab at Glasgow University, can you imagine how many tests could have been conducted if the big bureaucrats in the NHS hadn’t been insisting for the past month and a half that only they were they ones that had the authority to do tests. Should be renamed the National Covid Service.

      I won’t be clapping.

    67. Mist001 says:

      @ Graeme

      Who the fuck are you???

      Explain to me and everyone else who’s interested how Scotland with a population of 5.5 million can afford UBI.

      No wonder you’re mechanic because you’re no good at fucking sums.

      Have you seen the price of a barrel of oil recently? The suppliers are virtually giving it away so forget any of the old stories about how Scotland would derive its income from the sales of oil.

      You’re fucked with that one right away, as is everyone else who’s pretended to be a fucking economic expert on here.

      Are they going to pay UBI through taxation? Don’t fucking think so because with a population of 5.5 million people, everone’s going to have to be taxed at least 30% in the pound and that’s not counting the high earners who will get the fuck out of Scotland as soon as the higher rate tax goes above 50%.

      Oh yes, Scotland could borrow money. Yeah? What collateral will they use? Oh yes, we’re back to the non starter of oil again.

      So, we seem to be running out of options now to implement UBI so that leaves everyone’s favourite economic answer on here.

      We can just print money, we can just press an extra key on a keyboard, yada, yada, yada.

      Great fucking idea because what an independent Scotland really, REALLY needs is rampant inflation.

      Stick to your mechanics, grease monkey, because thinking about stuff is probably out of your league.

    68. Bob Mack says:

      @Bipod,

      Oh where were you in our hour of need. So much knowledge(with the benefit of hindsight) ,of course.

      Amazingly almost everything you write is inaccurate as well.I

      Incredible consistency.

    69. robbo says:

      Can someone tell what a flat earth society NS apologist is? .Seems if you don’t agree with obvious yoons on here you’re tagged as one of these.

    70. Bob Mack says:

      @Mist,

      EIA disagree with you. They reckon oil and has prices will climb significantly next year post lockdown, and they ARE experts.

      Maybe you should let them know your info.!!

    71. bipod says:

      UBI sounds like a great idea, but I reckon you need a strong economy to back it up. Considering we are now in the mother of all recessions, where 1 in 3 businesses may never reopen thanks to the disastrous and ineffectual lockdown policy, UBI will remain a pipe dream. The Scottish gov should worry about other things.

    72. robbo says:

      Mist001 says:
      17 May, 2020 at 5:59 pm
      @ Graeme

      Mist goes full out yoon again. He’s livid he was caught out months ago re the voting saga and was for indy but lived in France which gave him special rights or sumit that he could vote in indy 2014.

      Sure Golfnut or jsgw or Famous can remind us or someone else?. That was a trying week for him, so he’ll be wriggling with this one for a while and his only thing will be= ‘look at the price of oil’ my oh my.

    73. Breeks says:

      Once it’s up and running, I don’t see why a UBI scheme should be more of a burden than the complicated benefits system we have now.

      The biggest expense might be the net benefit to the State from people not claiming the benefits they’re due, but that’s the very definition of a fairer system isn’t it? Are we really content to see people screwed out of their proper entitlements?

      I can tell you first hand too, a regular and reliable source of income for the self employed would be an absolute godsend for many… quite literally the difference between eating and not eating, or putting off starting a new job because you don’t have enough fuel to get there. It would make a critical difference to some businesses, literally be a lifesaver.

      In fact, even if a UBI scheme is impractical, (though it absolutely shouldn’t be), it would still be no bad investment to fund a UBI scheme just for the self employed. Some self employed people are totally stressed out by cash flow problems, which stifles production because there’s no working capital, and leaves them at the permanent mercy of the parasitic banks. Suddenly the bank is running the business and setting the priorities, and the business owner becomes a zombie on autopilot because they cannot break free of the poverty trap. A UBI would pay for itself handsomely if it helped businesses negotiate pinch points in their cash flow and allowed some of our most industrious people to avoid being stressed out like piano wire just making ends meet and putting food on the table.

    74. bipod says:

      @Bob Mack

      Do you think the Scottish government has done a good job on testing?

      We are two months into mass house arrest and they are still cobbling together a plan on how to tackle covid.

    75. Julia Gibb says:

      @mist001

      4 Billion a year interest contribution allocated for money spent in England.
      4 Billion a year contribution for Defence. Double what nations our size pay.
      Power Generation subsidised in Outh of England and penalised with high tariffs in Scotland
      Allocated 8.4% of Oil and Gas income instead of 95%. No Oil fund after half a century of production
      Etc etc

      So instead of a Trident replacement, Aircraft Carriers, Astute Class submarines, foreign wars, The Royal Family, CrossRail, HS2. London Sewers, A replacement Thames Barrier, HofLs, The Scottish a Office etc etc

      Without the drag of England we would be able to afford much, much more!

    76. Dan says:

      Mist, step away from the Chardonnay.

      Scotland has way more than oil. We are a net exporter of fuel, water, food, and electricity not to mention many other attributes.
      England’s resource to population stats are far less impressive, and they require to be a net importer of basic life sustaining commodities just to get by.

    77. Republicofscotland says:

      “Explain to me and everyone else who’s interested how Scotland with a population of 5.5 million can afford UBI.”

      Mist001.

      I can’t understand why you’re getting so worked up about how Scotland could fund UBI, none of us in here are privy to just how it could be funded, but that doesn’t mean it can’t be done.

      I think Finland has trialed UBI, of course Finland doesn’t have a foreign country draining its wealth on a daily basis as Scotland has.

      I don’t see France trialing it anytime soon.

      https://countryeconomy.com/national-debt/france

    78. winifred mccartney says:

      On private health care just be aware as soon as their is something seriously wrong with you your private insurance will be voided, or when you get too old, it will be cut off, or if you need long term care it will not provide this. Private health care used to be called haemorrhoids and hernia medicine because you could be in and out quick time. Long term conditions, metal health issues, age related issued are no go areas. And of course if anything goes seriously wrong in private hospital you will immediately be shipped out to NHS facility.

      As for contact tracers, they already exist here and are used all the time to trace various outbreaks. The new ones application don’t close until near end of May – all of these will have to be given clearance in various areas before being employed – or would you rather indiscreet persons or criminals were involved and just lifted up off the streets. It takes time to establish and train new tracers.

    79. Millennium says:

      Scotland could stop contributing to Trident renewal and that other white elephant,,,HS2

      There you go,,billions saved in the writing of one sentence

    80. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Joe says:
      17 May, 2020 at 3:34 pm
      “Im all for permanent UBI. If someone can sit down and do the maths on paper for me.”

      Printing money and the attendant inflation does not come into the equation.

      Just a matter of adding up the cost of all the benefits, tax credits/reliefs and admin costs it replaces.

      Setting the desired rate.

      Adjusting taxes to suit.

      pro’s

      Provides safety net for the short term unemployed, especially from two income households, which has not existed for decades.

      Provides base income for small business start ups and self employed generally.

      Enables people to retire when it suits them rather than when the state dictates.

      Enables people to take up short-term and seasonal employment without sabotaging their status with the social security or criminalizing themselves.

      Disadvantages benefits scroungers because unless they gnaw their own foot off, there won’t be a whole lot of benefits they can claim.

      Cons

      People who spend their entire working or exploiting lives earning big bucks are likely to pay more in taxes than they receive in benefits – unless their accountants can devise a way to circumvent the rules.

    81. Millennium says:

      Watching an english wartime propaganda film on Talking Pictures, and it got me thinking, would you pull on a uniform if Boris made a call to arms if we went to war with Russia or China???

      And my answer was a big emphatic NO!!!

      I would probably head to London and start blowin the place up on behalf of those who england was at war with.

      Changed days indeed, when you were meant to get out there and fight for Queen and Country.

      Aye right!!! So a will Sunshine.

    82. Bob Mack says:

      @Bipod,

      I think the Scottish Government like many others found the tests were hoping to use turned out to be unreliable. Back to square one to find a test which would find and identify Covid
      In the body.

      No simple matter,because tests available would miss lower levels of Covid and were more reliable only when the virus had taken hold.

      Interestingly the nation’s of Eurasia avoided the accepted European model of Public Health and created their own. We became victim to our accepted practise and procedure.

      That’s the only difference.

    83. robbo says:

      UBI

      There already has been some preliminary studies carried out via Think Tank April report produced for Scot gov.

      It would cost approx £20 billion with measures to raise £18.34 billion in revenue to support the scheme.

      Adults would get £5,200 and kids under 16 would get £2,600.

      Other benefits would be scrapped

      NS needs cooperation with uk government to trial scheme in some areas.

      https://www.independent.co.uk

      No stupid trial needed attached to Westmonster!

    84. johnj says:

      I’m quite encouraged, I thought that society was made up of at least 30% aerosols.

    85. Millennium says:

      ROBBO

      Dick Heed

      Get off of my case please

      No wonder indyRef2 is in reverse, with wankers like you and a leader like Sturgeon

    86. FiferJP says:

      The worst thing about hearing ‘You’re shit Scotland, you can’t do anything, afford anything or amount to anything’ is the Scottish accent it’s delivered in.

      For those interested in Universal Basic Credit there is a website by Basic Income Scotland, including information.

      https://basicincome.scot

      Personally I think it’s a good premise but there are problems, some we know about and some that will crop up if it is implemented nation wide permanently.

      My worry is the ‘conquistador’ problem. I once saw a video on youtube about Spanish Conquistadors coming back from South America with their pockets laden with gold nuggets, thinking they were rich. All that happened was that traders put up their prices when they knew their customers were rich. If Scots get a grand or so a month no questions asked you can bet your boots Sky will put up subscription prices, as will BT and utility suppliers, and prices will go up in shops under the pretense of ‘you can afford it with all the extra money you’re getting.’ Pretty soon everyone will be back to square one.

      I mean, look what happened in America with the stimulus cheques to individuals, when some banks just took them to cover prior debts owed.

    87. Rm says:

      Scotland would be one of the richest countries in the world, why do you think england won’t let go, we are one of the countries with vast renewable resources, and don’t think oil not worth anything, every drop of oil in the world will be drained its worth a fortune, another reason the won’t let us go, and we have plenty water, plenty food, good growing land, surrounded by sea with plenty opportunity to manage our fish stocks better, engineering, scientists etc,etc,etc, as one previous person said get rid of nuclear weapons, the royalty and england then Scotland will be one country that could look after itself just like any other country our size, england can’t even look after the north of england, Scotland doesn’t stand a chance if we don’t make a break shortly.

    88. Effijy says:

      It’s good to take part in a constructive debate here but some of your are mindless.

      Scotland could better afford UBI better than most countries and that includes Finland
      Who has it but not our fabulous wealth in Oil, Whisky, Sea Foods, Renewable Energy,
      And tourism but to name a few £Billions worth of income.

      Some of you are talking the same scaremongering pish as Klunker Brown at Indy Ref 1.
      Do you recall the sad bastard suggesting Scotland wouldn’t have an Old Age Pension,
      even when he knew it was guaranteed, he said we would not have a Blood Transfusion
      Service nor a Transplant waiting list.

      If you want to argue tell my why this superior English Nation has the 4th worst pension in the
      28 nation EU. Tell me about any European Nation that doesn’t have a Blood Transfusion Service ?

      The Trolls grow in number and their claims get all the more absurd as we nearer independence.

      Sent from my home from where I’m only allowed out only to sit in my garden, walk the streets, run in my local Park, Drive around to keep my car battery charged up, visit the Supermarket, the Bank,
      The DIY shops, Take Away Food outlets.

      Dear Unionists, I don’t think I’ll go on a civil rights march or dig an escape tunnel under the kitchen.

    89. Millennium says:

      ROBBO

      Are you going to report me to MI5 for saying I would go to war with the English now?

      You come across as a sneaky wee bastard and teacher’s pet rolled into one

    90. Dan says:

      Alternative taxation methods for funding the likes of UBI have been considered.
      EG. Various iterations of Annual Ground Rent have been floated by Graeme McCormick.
      Ground can’t be hidden away offshore so avoiding paying tax on land becomes harder.
      The current UK tax system treats non payment of taxes as a sport.
      In Graeme’s AGR proposals the UBI income is higher than the UK state pension, and annual tweaking of rates can also address the changing societal demographics where birth rates had fallen causing there to be less young workers paying conventional taxes to pay for the healthcare and pensions of a proportionately larger number of older folk.

    91. Colin Alexander says:

      Bob Mack

      I thought your “just remembered?” comment was quite witty.

      I don’t forget all the broken promises from the British Establishment SNP, just like British Establishment Labour before them.

    92. CameronB Brodie says:

      Might worth giving this a once-over, if only the executive summary.

      IPR Policy Brief
      September 2017

      Assessing the Case for a
      Universal Basic Income in the UK

      https://www.bath.ac.uk/publications/assessing-the-case-for-a-universal-basic-income-in-the-uk/attachments/basic_income_policy_brief.pdf

    93. CameronB Brodie says:

      Might be worth….doh!

      Exploring
      Universal Basic Income

      A Guide to Navigating
      Concepts, Evidence, and Practices

      http://documents.worldbank.org/curated/en/993911574784667955/pdf/Exploring-Universal-Basic-Income-A-Guide-to-Navigating-Concepts-Evidence-and-Practices.pdf

    94. bipod says:

      I don’t agree that it was just because the initial tests were bad and that set them back or that this was a Europe wide problem. Countries like Germany have had a far superior level of testing for more than a month now, even places that initially had very poor levels of testing, like the USA, have caught up and completely blown the UK out of the water.

      We are still struggling. Scotland still doesn’t have any ability to track and trace, and it has been 2 months since mass house arrest was imposed and nearly 6 months since we knew about the virus. There is something wrong with the centralised NHS approach.

    95. To many Mists in France for it to work.

    96. Golfnut says:

      @bipod,
      Where to start,

      Nobody destined for a care home from Hospital leaves hospital before they have completed 3 consecutive tests, all of which must be covid free, even so on arrival at the care home they are put into isolation for 14 days.

      Dentistry is one of those high risk area’s, only emergency requirements are dealt with.

      Absolutely shocked at your statement re cancer treatment. A fiend of mine is currently under going treatment, diagnosed in March.

    97. CameronB Brodie says:

      bipod
      “There is something wrong with the centralised NHS approach.”

      Were you not urging for a relaxation of lock-down a while back? So I think this sentence points to your ideological position, which I don’t think can be described as being supportive of the precautionary principle and public health ethics. Any particular reason for the sudden change of hart?

    98. Graeme says:

      “Who the fuck are you???”
      ———————————————————-

      I’m the man whose clearly rattled your cage wanker

      “Explain to me and everyone else who’s interested how Scotland with a population of 5.5 million can afford UBI.
      No wonder you’re mechanic because you’re no good at fucking sums.”
      —————————————————————

      I haven’t done any sums. I wouldn’t know where to start, calm down Mist FFS take a breath, I already said I’m not an
      economist and I couldn’t explain how Scotland can afford UBI, read what I said it’s not difficult basic reading skills is all that’s required, what makes you such a fucking expert ?

      “You’re fucked with that one right away, as is everyone else who’s pretended to be a fucking economic expert on here.”

      —————————————————————

      I never said I was an expert Mist in fact I went out way to explain that I wasn’t, can’t you read, I assume you’re better at sums than you are at reading because if not you’re as fucked as I am

      —————————————————————-

      “Stick to your mechanics, grease monkey, because thinking about stuff is probably out of your league.”
      ———————————————————–

      you crack me up 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

    99. Milo says:

      WRT Twitter. The easiest way to set up a new Twitter account,quickly and simply, is to use a mobile phone number. You can buy cheap disposable sim cards for that sort of purpose for a quid. This means that virtually nobody can stop you setting up any number of new fresh accounts as and when required, so that if one gets banned you just activate a new one. You can use 5 minute email services alongside, if required.
      The difficult thing is letting people know it’s you without doing anything that Twitter would construe as a violation of terms. Best way to do that, as I see it, would be to update the Twitter link on your website.

    100. Effijy says:

      Whooops there goes another prisoner in a home with all the windows and doors open.

      What about building a glider in the attic space like Colditz?

    101. Golfnut says:

      @Robbo.

      I know where your coming from regarding westminster help, but this exploring UBI in an Independent Scotland.

    102. CameronB Brodie says:

      Graeme
      I somehow get the impression Mist is simply here to spew negativity and FUD. 😉

      Don’t believe in a universal basic income? This is why it would work, and how we can pay for it
      https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/05/how-we-make-basic-income-reality-Rutger-Bregman/

    103. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @CamB –

      On the previous thread you posted five links between 4.01 and 4.54. in response to my earlier comment.

      I’ve just finished going through them and not one addresses the questions I raised. So, to save you going back, I copy my comment in full and respectfully ask that you have another go.

      ‘Prior to all this I had no idea just how pejorative a term ‘anti-vaxer’ is.

      So many discussions about the whole thing seem to be predicated on the notion that a vaccine, as and when it does become available for ‘the masses’, will be greeted with universal enthusiasm.

      It won’t be.

      It wouldn’t matter if every single one of us here was in agreement that it’s welcome, although that plainly isn’t the case. The unavoidable fact is that many people who were perfectly happy to receive, or have their children receive, all sorts of vaccinations over the years, will not accept one for this bug.

      If vaccination is rolled-out as a voluntary arrangement, it won’t work. We’ve already seen that, in Ireland for example, people who arrived at airports and were instructed to self-isolate and keep in touch with authorities to inform them of their whereabouts etc simply didn’t comply – whether they were making a political statement or simply couldn’t be arsed is an unknown. Add to that the widespread awareness of/unease about the vested interests involved. Voluntary take-up won’t work.

      So what then? Mandatory vaccination? Seriously?

      What are the ethics involved here, CamB? You have access to all the thinking on this subject and it would surely be morally/ethically remiss of your experts to ignore such an eventuality, so please tell us – what’s the sketch when very large numbers of people refuse to have themselves and their children vaccinated? Do we wear something to warn others that we are potentially ‘unclean’? Should we be gathered in temporary camps for our own safety? Can we have an option to euthanise ourselves? Would the State help us do that if necessary?

      ???’

    104. Dan says:

      bipod says: at 7:24 pm

      Countries like Germany have had a far superior level of testing for more than a month now…

      Woah stop right there! That’ll be those pesky Germans with their vorsprung durch technik way of doing things producing the likes of their high quality Audi, Mercedes, Porsche, and Volkswagens.
      “Britain” however is shite, and I’m still waiting on delivery of my limited edition “‘Brexit’ – Taking Back Control” Leyland Allegro Mk2…
      I rather naively pre-ordered whilst inebriated but goodness only knows what it will be made of seeing as we no longer have a steel industry or folk capable of wielding a bastardin spanner to bolt the fuckin thing together.

      Test and trace wise there must be something going on as I was speaking to someone who along with their family was ill with covid like symptoms in early January. They had been contacted by local health authority and asked if they would come in for testing to see if there were antibodies that would show it was covid.
      It sounded from what they said that if confirmed it was covid it might lead to them giving blood either for plasma treatments or vaccine development.

    105. mr thms says:

      Effijy @ 6:57 pm

      I agree Scotland can afford UBI and it does not need to be an independent country. When Harold Wilson set up his Royal Commission on the constitution of the UK in 1969, they rejected borh Home Rule and independence in favour of devolution. Yet fifty years on it is both of those options that look most likely to be achieved. Coming out of the EU makes me think independence is more likely because Scotland has too many laws that diverge from the rest of the UK that the Treaty of Union prevent its assimilation with the rest of the UK. I can envisage Home Rule, but only for an interim period while devolved powers are returned from the EU, and more powers from Westminster, such as VAT not possible under EU rules, are devolved. The Faroes have a form of Home Rule described here that could come to Scotland

      https://www.government.fo/en/foreign-relations/the-faroe-islands-in-the-international-community/

    106. Sinky says:

      As BBC/ MSM won’t tell us, everyone should remind Scots that on 22 April, Labour List reported that the new Labour leadership has rejected the idea of introducing a universal basic income during the Covid-19 crisis, Keir Starmer’s spokesperson confirmed today.

      Also SIR Keir Starmer refused to sign opposition leaders’ letter calling on EU to extend the Brexit negotiating period.

      What a hypocrite Branch Manager Richard Leonard is when attacking SNP on care home covid testing.

      The Welsh Government came under fire last week for their decision not to carry out testing with the Labour First Minister, Mark Drakeford, saying there would be “no value” to providing coronavirus tests to everybody in care homes.

    107. Golfnut says:

      @ Fifer JP

      Good point re what I would term profiteering.
      This isn’t about giving people loads of cash to burn, it should be about lifting people out poverty, and changing the way we work and live. Being able to heat the house, feed and cloth the kids, remove zero hour contracts and burn bad emloyers, families spending more time together because parents won’t working every spare minute to keep a roof over their heads. Shared employment and a shorter working week. The new normal.

    108. There seems to be a great many studies on UBI from small to large countries,Finland/France,

      and almost all seem to be positive,

      Alaska guarantee basic income through an oil fund,

      Scotland could do the same with the hypothecation of oil tax for UBI.

    109. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      You appear to be opposed in principle to vaccines, so I’m unlikely to be able to answer you in a manner that will satisfy your objection.

      Full text.

      Medicine, Health Care and Philosophy volume 21, pages 547–560 (2018)

      The moral obligation to be vaccinated: utilitarianism, contractualism, and collective easy rescue

      Abstract
      We argue that individuals who have access to vaccines and for whom vaccination is not medically contraindicated have a moral obligation to contribute to the realisation of herd immunity by being vaccinated. Contrary to what some have claimed, we argue that this individual moral obligation exists in spite of the fact that each individual vaccination does not significantly affect vaccination coverage rates and therefore does not significantly contribute to herd immunity.

      Establishing the existence of a moral obligation to be vaccinated (both for adults and for children) despite the negligible contribution each vaccination can make to the realisation of herd immunity is important because such moral obligation would strengthen the justification for coercive vaccination policies.

      We show that two types of arguments – namely a utilitarian argument based on Parfit’s Principle of Group Beneficence and a contractualist argument – can ground an individual moral obligation to be vaccinated, in spite of the imperceptible contribution that any single vaccination makes to vaccine coverage rates.

      We add a further argument for a moral obligation to be vaccinated that does not require embracing problematic comprehensive moral theories such as utilitarianism or contractualism. The argument is based on a “duty of easy rescue” applied to collectives, which grounds a collective moral obligation to realise herd immunity, and on a principle of fairness in the distribution of the burdens that must be borne to realise herd immunity.

      https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11019-018-9829-y

    110. Joe says:

      A ramble.

      OK. With the best will in the world permanent UBI is problematic. I have seen nothing on here that satisfies me 1 iota.

      Firstly – ill need numbers. Not wishes and ‘should be’. The UK numbers are easily had from ONS, BOE, OECD etc. Not so much Scotland. So that’s for a start – economics is done by numbers not words. But we could use rough estimates if we really wanted to.

      Then lets understand that currency is NOT real wealth. Currency is a tool for exchange. The wealth of a country is its natural resources, people and the value of goods it produces. So with that understood the balance is about money supply v productivity. If money supply increases relative to productivity then the value of the currency drops. If productivity increases relative to money supply then the opposite is true.

      Firstly UBI would be a boon to the economy. It would give a kickstart to pretty much everything and help out the worst off.

      But what would be the net effect of everyone in the country having X amount of extra spending power, every month, over a longer period of time? Price increases. Especially if the economy is not expanding at the rate of the amount of money in circulation. Which is an issue when people have less incentive to be productive with UBI.

      Eventually the market would balance out so that all that extra cash people are getting is nullified by inflation.

      Then you’d need more UBI. And so it goes. It doesn’t matter the wealth of the country

      This is a panacea sold by nice appearing well-off socialists to get your vote.

      What you actually need to do is:

      1 – make sure the productivity of the country is efficient and competitive. If something can be made in Scotland it is so. That keeps jobs here and prices relative to the Scottish economy. People need to be taught skills and the ability to manage themselves without debt.

      2 – allow the government to operate as the peoples provider of credit and provide its own bank notes and loans interest free. That WILL piss of the global banking cartel as it did when people like Gadaffi and A.Hitler tried to do it in their countries. But theoretically that’s the way to go. Offer interest free loans to people and control the issuance of currency. If people dont understand what I mean – most of the money you use has been loaned into existence. It is debt and doesnt have to be

      3 – stop allowing these arsehole politicians to squeeze the wee guy by introducing accounting requirements, minimum wage and thousands of regulations that only big corporations have the ability to ride over easily – all in the name of making the big corporations ‘pay their fair share’.

      I dont see why a government can’t set up systems of food production using volunteers and automation etc that would be freely available to everyone. I don’t see why government cant build cheap rentable housing (apart from the fact that it messes with the banking sectors key stable income – mortgages).

      But honestly, messing with currency, especially the debt based money system, is absolutely not the way an independent Scotland should go. OR any country that wishes to be successful. Its playing with fire.

      What this is designed to do is shore up the SNP’s votes by promising something they never intend on being in the position to have to successfully deliver.

    111. CameronB Brodie says:

      Joe
      Again, that sounded impressive but you’ve already indicated you’re a bit of a diddy on a number of occasions.

      Universal Basic Income
      https://www.economicsandethics.org/2016/06/universal-basic-income.html

    112. Willie Anderson says:

      Home Farm care home in Portree is owned by HC-One. HC-One is owned by Libra Intermediate, based in the tax haven of Jersey, and which in turn is owned by FC Skyfall LP, based in the tax haven of the Cayman Islands.HC-One’s highest paid director earns £808,000 per year.It paid 45 million in dividends to shareholders last year.Its chairman, Sir David Behan, was formerly chief executive of the Care Quality Commission until 2018.Tax havens, debt-fuelled entities, ludicrous salaries for top executives, revolving doors between regulators and private providers – none of this is what the provision of care for elderly people should be about.

    113. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @CamB –

      Thanks.

      That’s much closer to what I asked for but is still skirting the question. It does, however allude to it here:

      There has recently been considerable discussion (Pierik 2016; Flanigan 2014; Dawson 2011; Luyten et al. 2011; Verweij and Dawson 2004) regarding whether the state should enforce compulsory or mandatoty vaccination in order to realise herd immunity.

      …which makes me wonder why you didn’t you just provide a link to any of them?

      Anyway, that article concerns the personal responsibility, moral duty of individuals. That’s not what my question was about – I’m asking you to accept that universal acceptance of a covid vaccine is not on the cards. So, issues of moral responsibility etc have to be set aside whether you like it or not. We’re discussing the role of the State. That’s what I’m asking you to address and I’m curious as to why, after six links, you’re not much closer. Is it because such scenarios are not openly discussed in academic papers? These are more for the COBRA rooms?

      Mind you, the authors do acknowledge that this whole business of individual responsibility could be ‘useful’:

      ‘Establishing the existence of a moral obligation to be vaccinated (both for adults and for children) despite the negligible contribution each vaccination can make to the realisation of herd immunity is important because such moral obligation would strengthen the justification for coercive vaccination policies.’

      Dunno if it’s just me but that sounds a tad cynical, does it not?
      They go into a wee bit more detail in the conclusion:

      ‘Such moral obligation, in turn, strengthens the ethical justification for the imposition of coercive vaccination policies. Examples of such policies include mandatory vaccination, such as making vaccination a requirement for enrolling children in school or daycare; withholding of financial benefits for those who are not vaccinated or do not vaccinate their children; and outright compulsory vaccination. Determining which of these policies would be preferable, both from a pragmatic and from an ethical perspective, would require a separate discussion.’

      (My emphasis)

      Ah, right…a separate discussion. So they’re certainly aware of the issue and those bigger thorny questions but ‘this is not the place’. Fair enough.

      But we’re here, and we *can* have that discussion, and that’s why I’m asking you, again, to share what you know about the ethics when it comes to State coercion.

    114. Col says:

      Ok, so ubi is a brill idea. Now all we need to do is talk Boris into it. Zzzzzzzz.

    115. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      After my teatime snooze, I came to WOS to catch up with the btl comments from around 3pm, at around 7pm.

      “I think too many peeps have too much time on their hands”, he typed, looking through misty specs, then elected to delete that opinion.

      Instead, I will profess that there are, and have been, a bunch of peeps posting absolute garbage btl on here. To what purpose? I think we can guess.

      So I explored WOS archives, from May 2012 and 2013. Interesting…

      How about this quote, directed, now, to all the “too wee, too poor, too stoopid” commenters on here?

      “It’s fairly well established by impartial analysts now that an independent Scotland would run a substantial budget surplus compared to the rest of the UK, and that’s based on a direct like-for-like division of current resources and expenditure. In reality Scotland would be even better off than these figures suggest, because (for example) our actual spending on defence would very likely amount to MUCH less than the current 10% share of what the UK spends. Scotland needs no aircraft carriers, nuclear weapons or standing armies. We have no desire to wave our dicks around at the UN, and who’s going to invade us?

      Invest a large part of that surplus wisely in infrastructure for renewable energy (as is the SNP’s policy) in order to take advantage of Scotland’s ridiculously abundant wave and wind potential and you’re looking at a future bonanza that’ll frankly leave North Sea oil looking like finding 20p down the back of the sofa.

      Despite the UK and Scottish media’s endless highly-selective sneers at Salmond’s ill-advised “arc of prosperity” line, Scotland is far more like Norway (which turned roughly the same amount of oil into a £300bn reserve fund for its Scotland-sized population) than Iceland or the hopelessly bankrupt Ireland, which based its boom not on a solid foundation of prudently-managed natural resources and industry but on a crazy property bubble, and then made about as big a mess of the inevitable crash as could possibly be imagined.

      Don’t panic, though, English chums – you’ll be fine. Scotland’s surplus will be a few billion quid a year, which goes a long way in a country of 5m people but wouldn’t build you a single PFI hospital. New UK will be capable of standing on its own two economic feet too – or at least, no less so than it currently is.”

      That’s from 2012 (only 13 btl comments),
      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-new-flag-of-the-united-kingdom/

      How about a year later, from 17th May, 2013?

      “While UKIP is certainly growing in England, “mainstream” seems a bit of a stretch at this point for a party with precisely 0 MPs out of 650 in Westminster, 0 MSPs out of 130 in Scotland, and 0 AMs out of 60 in the Welsh Assembly. But it’s the idea that Farage is being somehow silenced that defies all reason.

      Here’s the coverage the minor incident got on the BBC website alone this morning:

      Hostile demonstration greets Farage

      Farage swarmed by angry protesters in Edinburgh

      Farage: Scottish nationalism ‘pretty ugly’

      UKIP’s Nigel Farage explains why he hung up on BBC Scotland

      Nigel Farage blasts ‘fascist’ protesters after Edinburgh confrontation

      Nigel Farage: ‘I’ve been in worse places than that’

      Alex Salmond: Nigel Farage protest ‘needs to be put into context’

      If we were to start listing all the other newspaper articles and blogs on the subject, we’d be here all day. For a man without a single Parliamentarian anywhere on the British mainland, Farage must be the most over-exposed politician in the country by a galactic distance. The notion that he’s being “suppressed” is somewhere on a par with complaining that Dara O’Briain is being kept off the TV.

      (We love Dara O’Briain, by the way.)”

      That’s from (where the links are active),
      https://wingsoverscotland.com/ukip-media-blackout-continues/

      But…
      Look at the quality of the btl comments, compared to this page…
      Virtual tin helmet in position…

    116. Golfnut says:

      @ Joe.

      That’s a pretty thin veneer of micro economic s knowledge your wearing there Joe.

      A bit arrogant demanding an explanation on how this works when as yet when don’t what’s planned. I will say though that UBI has to come first, income stabilisation within the population is the priority.
      To be honest I’m notsure that will make sense to some who believes that American corporations buying access to the public purse is inward investment.

    117. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      It’s very satisfying to my ego, but I think you might be under the false impression I ken it all, and have worked at the highest levels. I don’t and I’ve not. I’ve not even looked at this stuff in roughly three decades. Gonnae give us a break? 🙂

      The way I see things is, universal vaccination is a pro-social moral obligation. I appreciate not everyone holds this opinion, for a host of reasons. Some object for religious obligation and others due to a more general lack of trust in science. So it’s really a failure in public education that needs to be overcome, if we want to improve the universality of vaccination.

      Vaccine research bioethics: does the COVID-19 pandemic argue for special considerations for testing?
      https://network.febs.org/channels/728-viewpoints/posts/vaccine-research-bioethics-does-the-covid-19-pandemic-argue-for-special-considerations-for-testing

    118. Joe says:

      @Golfnut

      If you dont get why someone would want some ballpark figures on a massive government proposal then you are a fucking fool my friend. Just the kind the SNP need.

    119. Famous15 says:

      Pete

      I am not in an SNP bubble. I am not in the SNP because after 50 years membership they sold their soul for a few Green votes and returned East Sutherland to the Clearance mentality of valuing birds and animals over the indigenous people.

      GRA and criminalising thought are future worries too.

      I support women’s’ rights and detest racism and sectarianism but think there are confused policies in the pipeline.

      Independence is normal for a nation.

    120. Robert Louis says:

      Brian doonthetoon at 839pm,

      I think partially it is borne of frustration, given that the YES moevment held together despite 2014, and yet the SNP leadership have done nothing to advance independence one iota.

      Electoral mandate, after electoral mandate, simply squandered. But, certainly from my perspective, it is even worse. The old mantra says ‘if you are not attacking, then you are defending’, and that sadly is what the Scotgov have done for six years. Rather than assert Scotland’s consitutional rights, during brexit, they have piddled away the time, trying to stop England having the brexit, that England voted for. Fighting somebody else’s battle, for no reward. Even now, they still do not take action. Their is no fight in them.

      They should have been fighting for independence. The whole world was waiting. They all see London for the utter sh*t hole that it has become. They would understand Scotland not wanting to be forcibly removed from the EU by England. But the SNP whined a lot, promised a lot, then did nothing.

      As regards the btl comments, many good people stopped posting, but in my honest opinion, it was partly their own fault. They fought long and hard with what are clearly paid trolls, arguing the toss about this and that, over and over again. It was pointless, and I guess they eventually found it all too much. The trolls on the other hand, got what they were paid to do.

      I and others many time suggested folk should not engage trolls, but some folk just could not seem to help themselves. Trolls only succeed when people indulge them and argue with them. And here’s what is really stupid about it, when trolls make inflammatory silly false statements, you can produce every single freaking reference in the world to no effect. Trolls are not here for facts or debate, they are here to distract and sew division.

      I over the last few years have been extremely critical of the SNP leadership, but take a look back to just a few years ago (since around 2011), and you will find I was a literal cheerleader for the SNP. They let me down, and they let many down, and folk are now arguing amongst themselves. Their is no leadership, and no direction. I lay the blame firmly at the door of NS and her assorted spads. Instead of using Mr. Salmond’s political skills, they tried to destroy him.

      So many opportunities wasted by them, thrown away. Taking their voters for granted. It’s an absolute disgrace that they have allowed brexit to happen to Scotland, a total f***ing travesty. And, yes, I am still freaking furious about it, and will be till the day I die – it’s just a pity the SNP aren’t.

    121. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Robert Louis at 9:12 pm.

      I can’t disagree with what you type.

    122. Golfnut says:

      @ Joe.

      Robbo gave you a ball park figure based on an annual figure of £5,200 per adult, but we have as yet no idea what the SG’s plan are for UBI in an Independent Scotland, whether it will include pensioners etc, so at this stage speculation on cost is irrelevant.
      Don’t flatter yourself, your not my friend.

    123. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Robert Louis

      And here was me still thinking that The Redcoats would have to prize the EU flag from Ian Blackford’s cold dead hands.

    124. Dan says:

      @Joe

      Did you bother to take a look at the AGR proposition I mentioned?
      Pete was considering taking a look at it a month or so ago off the back of a conversation on education, but not sure he ever got round to it as he may have been too busy defying lockdown and traveling to visit his relations…

      The last evolution of the concept I was aware of aimed to raise 100 billion annually to ensure there was funding to pay for public services and investments free from the constraints of an austerity program.
      “Ooh, it’s too radical” some say. Well if the current UK system is so radically bad and unable to address rampant tax evasion and properly fund our health services and decent pensions, then it goes without saying it would need a radical shift to improve it.
      If we’re not prepared to make significant changes we’ll be stuck in a perpetual shitfest and whinging at the same old issues.
      Politicians in fancy suits talk a lot, engineers actually get busy designing and fixing things.
      The sooner this current crop of conniving, hot air spouting, highly paid, cretinous, charlatan politicians actually do what they say or move the fuck aside the better.
      Anybody see where my EU Citizenship mysteriously went? Scotland’s future in Scotland’s hands n’ aw that…

    125. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @CamB –

      Okay, so there hasn’t been any discussion of what will happen when people refuse to take this vaccine. (Not in front of the children at any rate.) And you know as well as I do that that is exactly what’s going to happen.

      So, what next? How do we find out? Or do we, as Bob Mack suggests upthread, just wait to see how things unfold?

      I appreciate that you believe you’ve been providing a service of sorts with these links, but I hope you’ll likewise appreciate that many (dare I say ‘most) of us don’t read them because we’re much more concerned about what’s happening from day to day in the real world. And in that real world, where people like Johnson and Cummings make decisions that affect us all, even the most cutting-edge academia butters no parsnips. That’s why it’s particularly unhelpful to respond to genuine questions with links to articles which contain little or no relevant material.

      I’m not a right-winger Cameron. You know that. And I won’t pretend that it didn’t sting to see you write that. I’m the same as most other folk – just a bit stuck right now, worried, trying to make sense of shit generally and it really doesn’t help when people you’ve been in touch with for years start depicting you as an ‘enemy’ – that’s what you’ve been doing lately, and not only to me.

      These conversations mean fuck-all in the scheme of things but they’re important in their own way. BDTT was bemoaning the overall quality of comment earlier, and that’s understandable, but we’re in a period when it’s hard to be positive, to make arrangements, to be ‘active’. And this place has always been about activism in all sorts of ways. It’s no wonder we’ve mibbe turned on one another a bit but that doesn’t mean we can’t recognise it happening and make efforts to limit the damage.

    126. Millennium says:

      Listening to englands news headlines, and they are going to save the world again with their very own english vaccine.

      While the rest of us cower in a corner.

      We really aren’t worthy,,,we really aren’t england, we really aren’t.

    127. Liz g says:

      Joe 9.05
      Well…..we could × the population by …say….£250 per week and what ever that adds up to…..will be the Rent for Faslane and and Colport!
      for which, apparently, Westminster will pay almost anything…and they print their own…

      Seriously though…..
      It is a concept worth exploring going forward, and not a million miles away from the old social security concept of, there being “a floor” which no citizen could fall below. With which the Home Secretary was legally charged to ensure was deliverable.

      Scotland has income streams and wealth,this we know !
      A general agreement on how the wealth is distributed has to come first…then an examination of the mechanics of it…

      Then we start looking at putting figures on it ….

      Not only to see if it’s doable,but also because ( as in 2014 ) Westminster won’t share with Holyrood the true wealth of Scotland.

      It’s disingenuous to demand anything other than very rough figures when we don’t have a full account of our assets and liabilities.
      The best that can be done is a comparison with similar Countries….and it will stay that way at Westminster’s pleasure because it lends itself to people like you Joe….and why you can’t or won’t see that is beyond me!

    128. Ron Maclean says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon 8:39pm

      ‘Look at the quality of the btl comments, compared to this page…’

      We lost the referendum.

    129. Sinky says:

      On the so called Nike cover up, it turns out that Public Health England were kept fully informed but didn’t tell the public in the country that had the most delegates also SAGE continued to advice it was safe to go to mass gatherings

    130. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      I’ve done my best to advise from the perspectives of ethical rationalism, critical realism, and a respect for ethical jurisprudence and natural law. You can’t get much more supportive of universality than that. I do appreciate most won’t have the time for, or interest in that sort of stuff, but this is what I’m trained to do. So I have a moral obligation to share this knowledge, which can help change perspectives, though it’s obviously not going to reach everyone.

      You suggest that it’s “particularly unhelpful to respond to genuine questions with links to articles which contain little or no relevant material”. Well I’d suggest you’ve not understood what I’ve been trying to do. Technically, I’m a social nobody, with zero social capital. So I could outline the most most powerful of theories to no great effect. So I’m linking to academia as a source of social capital and authority. Some of the links are more specific and comprehensive than others, some merely point to a practical concern. I am trying to be as relevant as possible.

      No, I appreciate you’re not right wing, but your support for those who most certainly appear to be, couldn’t go without mention. These feckers are bio-neurologically impoverished in terms of their capacity for moral conduct, and need no help in bring about catastrophe and calamity.

      The COVID-19 Vaccine: Usual Ethical Questions in Unusual Times
      https://www.reliasmedia.com/articles/146109-the-covid-19-vaccine-usual-ethical-questions-in-unusual-times

    131. Sarah says:

      @ BDTT at 8.39: perhaps the 77th Brigade weren’t active until after the narrow squeak on 18.9.2014?

      Also the Rev is so generous and genuine in allowing free speech that he won’t block the people that lower the quality btl.

    132. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @CamB –

      Fair enough.

      Seems that we’ve reached the end of this particular wee cul-de-sac.

      You’ve told me, several times now, that I am not qualified to converse with you, so I’ll bow out now in the hope that someone comes along who is suitably equipped and prepared to take on that mighty task.

      You’ve also confirmed, albeit it in a rather mealy-mouthed way, that you regard me as a ‘right-winger’. And that, for me, is the clincher. You might as well call me a Tory. In any event, you can call me whatever you like now because I won’t be reading or responding to anything else you post here.

      🙁

    133. Millennium says:

      Re: Brexit

      As far as I can remember, england was meant to have come to some kind of agreement with the EU by June.

      And if no agreement can be reached by June, then we leave the EU without a deal.

      I think this was so any fine details on a deal could be thrashed out in the remaining 6 months of 2020

      But as far as I know, trade talks have broken down, and it is looking more likely we leave at the end of the year with no deal.

      Add in a global pandemic and a global recession and record borrowing, it surely is time for Sturgeon to resurect the “I” word.

    134. CameronB Brodie says:

      “You’ve told me, several times now, that I am not qualified to converse with you”

      I’m sorry if that’s the impression I’ve given you, it certainly was not my intention. I was simply pointing out you lack sufficient scientific and philosophical training to make the sort of claims you were making. That’s all. So you appear to be taking the huff for no good reason. Suite yourself.

    135. Colin Alexander says:

      http://www.wired.com/story/free-money-the-surprising-effects-of-a-basic-income-supplied-by-government/

      A study on the effects of a basic universal income on a Native American reservation in USA.

      “This translates to fewer kids in jail, fewer kids in in-patient care,” Costello says. “Then there are the other costs you can’t calculate. The cost of people not killing themselves? That’s a hard one.”

    136. Ruglonian says:

      Play nice boys!!!

      Here’s something positive for you all to share, and discuss, if you want.

      I think it shows that there is still space for ‘homework’ to be done whilst we’re stuck not able to be as politically active in the more physically present ways we’re used to!

      threadreaderapp.com/thread/1262114028417138688.html
      (apologies if this doesn’t come up as a hyperlink – I’ve never got my head around the rules properly, knowing that youtube links shouldn’t have the http – I’m too fearful of the hammers to try it any other way.)

    137. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      Honestly mate, I wouldn’t be posting this stuff if I didn’t think it relevant, or if I thought it beyond reason that some folk might be interested. I’m sorry if you thought I was being a snobbish prick, you set cross-words, ffs. That’s black magic as far as I’m concerned. 😉

      Anti-Oppression Through a Postmodern Lens: Dismantling the Master’s Conceptual Tools in Discursive Social Work Practice
      https://ojs.uwindsor.ca/index.php/csw/article/view/5848/4820

    138. Colin Alexander says:

      http://www.wired.co.uk/article/universal-basic-income-policy-universal-credit

      Finland UBI study: “Broadly, people who were on basic income said that their levels of stress went down too”.

    139. dakk says:

      Sky News running a spook story on Covid19 impact on Yemen.

      Ffs, they got Mark Stone’s arse over to Yemen to try tell a story of a country worse effected by Covid than britin.

      The laugh is they aren’t.

      Not yet at least.

    140. Joe says:

      Well, ive said too much and still not enough on the subject. Heres my prediction though – you arent going to get hard numbers from the SNP. It will be more vague than that. They want to win elections, not have their proposals torn to shreds if they were foolish enough to put down a black and white plan for which has not yet been adopted permanently by any single country on earth

    141. Joe says:

      Its not been adopted for very good reasons. Its not about differential advantage of rich v poor (the debt based money we use sees ably to that) its basic economic mechanics. You will be led to an embaressing cul-de-sac on this and if its actually enabled it will fail. Of course it wont, because you wont be getting indy umder this SNP anyway.

    142. Golfnut says:

      @Joe.

      Up to now all you done is demand answers to questions nobody can answer, but we’ve been here before in 2014 and I for one don’t intend to pander that kind of arrogance. Bit sneaky coming back in after midnight though.

    143. CameronB Brodie says:

      Thank’s for your advice there Joe, I’ll be sure to take it under advisement. 😉

      Universal Basic Income: A Psychological Impact Assessment
      What if…

      …Just to make ends meet, Rachel did not need to do a late-night shift in Tesco, after giving her children their tea and working all day as a lowpaid carer for a home care agency? She could do this with a Universal Basic Income….

      http://www.psychchange.org/uploads/9/7/9/7/97971280/ubi_for_web_updated.pdf

    144. dakk says:

      Joe, like Pete isjust worried about the coming asset tax to pay for the economic dislocation.

    145. Still Positive says:

      It was voted at the SNP conference in 2017 that meaningful land reform would enable the SG to introduce UBI.

    146. Iain More says:

      ” Still Positive says:
      18 May, 2020 at 1:49 am

      It was voted at the SNP conference in 2017 that meaningful land reform would enable the SG to introduce UBI.”

      Two things I would like to see happen in my lifetime but neither will happen this side of Indy.

      No wonder the Tory Lairdies hate the idea of Indy. Getting them to pay their fair share of taxes might get some of the cash needed for UBI. Stopping the tax dodging landed Brit Tory leeches using Estates as tax write offs might also save the Indy Scots Treasury some cash as well.

    147. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      Julia Gibb at 6:20 pm you saved my sanity. Thankyou.

      Le Mist001 tube has lost the plot enfin. Vraiment.

      Having to scroll past these BTL people is irritating. Especially when those such as Mist001 and his restricted vocabulary start effing and blinding as he/she/it lacks the brainpower to articulate a coherent narrative without swearing. He/she/it wastes the precious time of those on here who want Independence for Scotland.

      I was about to break a cardinal rule and debate with the Troll: point out to the cranially challenged that UBI IS affordable in Scotland for many reasons.

      Fortunately Julia, you put the work in for just a few of these reasons and it is well worth repeating as Mist-the-point can do with all the help available…

      Quote from Julia Gibb…

      4 Billion a year interest contribution allocated for money spent in England.
      4 Billion a year contribution for Defence. Double what nations our size pay.
      Power Generation subsidised in south of England and penalised with high tariffs in Scotland
      Allocated 8.4% of Oil and Gas income instead of 95%. No Oil fund after half a century of production
      Etc etc

      So instead of a Trident replacement, Aircraft Carriers, Astute Class submarines, foreign wars, The Royal Family, CrossRail, HS2. London Sewers, A replacement Thames Barrier, HofLs, The Scottish a Office etc etc

      Without the drag of England we would be able to afford much, much more!

      In other words, Scotland COULD afford Universal Basic Income.

    148. Camz says:

      One constant in all these polls. The Lib Dems are broadly ‘soft’ Tories when push comes to shove. Capitalists with a conscience, they may be, but not when it’s their tax avoidance at risk.

    149. Patrick Roden says:

      Famous15 says:

      They live in my street. Those having hearing difficulty, those with eyesight problems those with the many issues which make it a problem to understand that which is obvious to most of us.

      I can’t agree with this, mate.

      Why would the people you describe above sign up to a polling company if they had those difficulties?

    150. Patrick Roden says:

      RE ahundredthidiot:

      Most of you won’t remember, but early on in the lockdown in one of the comments sections, I began to put 2 + 2 together and wondered about the Tories sending known covid19 patients into old folks homes, and if this wouldn’t cause a pandemic within the very group that was known to be the most vulnerable to the virus.

      In a bizarre sequence of events, while replying to a CBB comment about the resident wings troll ‘sensibledave’, ‘ahundredthidiot’ jumped in and accused me of backing CBB up against him!

      Do we have one of those multiple identity cases when someone forgets what name they are signed up in?

      Anyway, ahundredthidiot, in his rage that I dared back CBB up, mentioned that I was that person who had been spouting some disgraceful stuff on wings and scaring all the pensioners off.
      He then mentioned something about how Scotland would be better off without me?

      My response was to wonder if he would be man to come on here and apologise if he was wrong but didn’t think he would be.

      My reason for this was simple:

      If you are a genuine commenter and you fall out with another genuine commenter you would want to make amends if lost your rag about them, especially of it later transpired that you were wrong about the disagreement.
      We are all (supposed to be supporters of independence) and therefore will be at the same marches/meetings/ etc, so would be always wanting unity.

      If you are a fraud pretending to be a supporter of independence, however, you know you won’t be meeting up with people and the last thing you will be concerned about is unity on wings.

      Just sying like!

    151. Sensibledave says:

      …. more tinfoil for Patrick!!!

    152. Sarah says:

      O/T re ayeMail’s emergency appeal on donorbox.org – target £6,500 and £5,916 received so far.

      ayeMail sent merchandise to all the Yes groups at rock bottom prices – my Yes group got flags, posters, stickers, leaflets for £25 and raised funds from selling the flags and stickers. I spread the word of their appeal to my group and one member is also a member of an Edinburgh Yes group so donations jumped up by over £1000 in 24 hours.

      Can all Yes group members on here please tell their group of the appeal? AyeMail have been brilliant for us and it would be good to return the favour in a small way.

    153. Effijy says:

      We already mentioned an Independent Scotland retaining
      All it’s Oil and Gas Revenue, Renewables income, £Billions
      From the Whisky Industry, the Fishing Industry, but for what
      Price would this UK equal partner sell its share of 230 foreign
      Offices that are owned, do we sell our stake in all the UK Colonies
      Now masked with the title Overseas Territories, note the word Tories within,
      Or should we just take some of them like that favourite money laundering location the
      Cayman Islands?
      Our share of the Falkland Island oil fields should also have a very significant value.

      Of course all the government owned buildings and land across the UK would need to be valued
      and from our share we can buy the Scottish ones we want and keep the extra Billions as our share of London properties will far outweigh those up here.
      Houses of Commons and Lords alone must bring in quite a bit.
      Artefacts in the London Museums must be priceless but let’s give them a price.

      Dependencies include areas like the base in Akrotiri in Cyprus and the Ascension Islands etc.

      I believe the Crown Jewell’s belong to the nation so they will bring in quite a bit.
      Only fair that Betty gets first refusal but no doubt they will end up in Trumpland.

      All the Navy, Army and RAF property and equipment must very lucrative.
      But I’d feel bad selling them nuclear weapons so they can have them with
      Next day delivery!

      I really don’t see how England could afford or survive all this?
      The would be no pensions, NHS, Blood Transfusion Service or Transplant lists.
      What currency would they use if we retain the UK equal partner’s bank.

      How would Klunker Brown earn money without his BBC scare story specials?

    154. Alex Montrose says:

      “Blind Pig” along side a picture of Nicola’s pal Shona Robinson, what are you trying to say Rev?

    155. Bill McLean says:

      Effijy – well said! We, who are concerned with Scotland’s future, know all that but it needs to be repeated regularly. Frankly, for me, England can keep all that stuff – it’s crucial to their “standing in the world” – oh my aching sides! They can keep Klunker Brown too!

    156. Willie says:

      Couldn’t agree more with someone earlier comment about the cost of Trident replacement, aircraft carriers, Astute class submarines, soaking up money that could otherwise be spent on socially good projects like UBI.

      But if one then factors in the huge off shore tax avoidance set up that plays a part in just about every aspect of our life to suck out money from the general population.

      Money sucked out from the recently topical care homes where many have died. Companies like HC-One who own the Home Farm care home in Portree on Skye. And a company who is then immediately owned by Libra Intermediate based in Jersey, to be then owned by FC Skyfall based in the Cayman Islands. With a corporate structure involving 50 companies, six of which are registered off shore in Jersey or the Cayman Islands and a further five in the UK as foreign entities, Wikipedia reports that the company paid out £6.2 million in dividends in 2017.

      I don’t know about most folk but I find it incredible that a care homes delivering essential care to our elderly and paid for by a combination of Scottish taxpayer grant and individual’s personal funds, gets channelled through an international corporate labyrinth like this. It certainly not structured like this for nothing and one cannot help but think it is structured like that to specifically siphon off cash and profit to avoid taxes.

      With something like 357 homes or just over 25% of all of the care homes in the UK HC One’s turnover for these homes must run into multiple billions. But it’s not just care homes that have these offshore corporate structures. Power utilities, water utilities, railways, PFI infrastructure providers, they are all at. Hundreds if not thousands of billions all sloshing through offshore companies whilst the little people pay.

      The little people who pay for their essential utilities like electricity, or for their elderly care, or take their holidays or travel on the trains on one of tax exile Sir Richard Branson’s equally complicated. companies.

      Us suckers, like drinking our Starbucks coffee, just keep sucking up the creaming off of corporate profits without demur. We are in fact the 90% that are happy to get kicked in the face.

      Yes it all sounds good a Universal Basic Income. But does anyone think it’ll ever be introduced, and more so under a subservient pretend Scottish parliament. Course not, it’s just hot air from Shona and the GRA girls.

    157. Millennium says:

      Talking of that english wummin Shona Robinson, when she split up with Stewart Hosie, bi sexual Sturgeon was the first to offer her some “comfort”

      Sturgeon and Robinson became REALLY close friends after that.

      Nudge nudge. Wink wink!!!

      Say no more!!!

      Robinson even got the seat next to Sturgeon in the Scottish Parliament.

      As I said,,,,they became “very close”.

    158. J Galt says:

      Willie @9.09am

      Yes you’re right about the Nexus of money that controls us.

      As for UBI, is it going to be introduced because this Nexus has repented of it’s ways and wants to be nice to the little people?

      Or will it be introduced because our elected representatives have gained the upper hand over the Nexus – that’s a laugh!

      So if UBI is introduced under anything like the present system, even under independence, you can be sure it’s being done against the interests of ordinary folk for reasons we’ll no doubt discover in due course.

    159. Willie says:

      Yes, and whilst the GRA brigade is banging on about a thoroughly good, indeed great idea that will frankly never happen under an SNP Government, maybe someone should ask about the offshore companies who own absolutely huge tracts of Scotland.

      Where have the pioneering gender rights SNP gone on that one. No where. Just no where. And all so different from the Alex Salmond days when there was a real vigour about making changes firmly rooted in the social democratic good.

      Indeed, at a time when our country heads towards a monstrous recession do you hear any proposal, or even thoughts about proposals for the Scottish government to seek to negotiate better terms for the hugely expensive PFI debt that we the taxpayer have to keep funding.

      With interest rates at effectively zero is no one in government asking the question. Or do us hapless little folks just have to keep sucking that up too.

      Ah well, more important fish to fry, trials without jury, restricted freedom of information, hate crime speech eradication, gender assignment rights………………..or is it time to change the leadership

    160. Ian Brotherhood says:

      For those who still haven’t checked the new place out, here’s a review of what @FOWings covered in its first week, accumulating over 2,800 followers in the process:

      https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1262114028417138688.html

    161. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Alex Montrose

      On the subject of Shona Robison, did she have a heid transplant at some point in the 15 or so years that I absented myself from SNP watching?

      Or has she and ALL the other women at the SNP’s Hollyrood hub been replaced by automatons created in the basement laboratory of Scotland’s latter day Rasputin, the fiendish and deranged Professor Murrell…?

      …It would explain a lot.

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7360345.stm

    162. Latest count of confirmed #COVID19 cases worldwide at 0000 GMT, May 18: Johns Hopkins University
      World: 4,710,614
      U.S.: 1,486,376
      Russia: 281,752
      Britain: 244,995
      Brazil: 241,080
      Spain: 230,698
      Italy: 225,435
      France: 179,693
      Germany: 176,369
      Turkey: 149,435
      China: 84,487

    163. Andy Ellis says:

      @Ian Brotherhood 9.37am

      It’s a good interim step if @FOWings can act as a forum to promote the website, but in the end it’s not a long term solution to twitter suspending accounts, as there is little or no recourse and those instigating such bans appear to be untouchable.

      Only an unmoderated platform like Gab, Scuttlebutt/Manyverse or Mastodon ensures that can’t happen. Hopefully more twitter exiles, or more of those concerned about freedom of expression will join up and use these?

      As Kevin McKenna observed in his recent piece:

      “The problem, of course, is that some who seek to be the sentinels of free expression sometimes get choosy about applying it, depending on who’s doing the expressing.”

    164. Golfnut says:

      @Ian Brotherhood.
      Thanks for the link, looks Brill. I’ve never been a Twitter fan, but I’ll have a think about joining.

    165. Dorothy Devine says:

      So Pete and Millennium are interchangeable – spreading the same rumour and hoping someone will spread it further.

      I doubt anyone is overly interested .

    166. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Andy Ellis –

      Aye, you’re right.

      That’s a good few of us on Gab now but a lot have declined to join because they see it as an alt-right platform. We got a tweet from a communications/media dude in Gab, refuting those ‘allegations’ and pointing out that they’re open to everyone, no matter what their politics are. Others pointed out that Twitter isn’t exactly as pure as the driven snow either when it comes to matters ‘political’ and we know that more keenly than most.

      There’s no getting away from it though – Twitter’s behaviour has been atrocious. It’s great that Graham Linehan has had his account ‘unfrozen’, but that makes their banning of Wings all the more inexplicable. And even if they did reinstate the Wings/RevStu and Sealand accounts, will they have been wiped clean? The original Wings twitter account, in particular, was valuable archive material.

      In any event, it feels like there’s bound to be some kind of a ‘showdown’ with Twitter over the Wings ban, and if they start banning us then we need a shelter to congregate in, even if it’s just temporary. Gab can satisfy that need, for now.

    167. Mike d says:

      Millennium. 6.51 PM yesterday. I often say that to my wife,can you imagine any western government now trying to bring in conscription, trying to get the ‘bodies’ for the ‘bags’ to go to whatever country they were bombing the shit out of. They would be told in no uncertain terms to go forth and multiply. You would obviously get a small portion of the zombies signing up.

    168. Andy Ellis says:

      @Ian Brotherhood 10.13am

      Exactly right. Given twatter’s behaviour I don’t see sticking with it and hoping it changes as a solution. The woke Stasi obviously have carte blanche to de-platform accounts for wrong think. There are doubtless lots of alt-right crazies on Gab, but unless and until there’s a viable alternative it’s worth persevering I think?

      From previous experience Mastodon isn’t much better unless you’re prepared to establish your own instance. I think an open platform like Gab which allows individual users to establish their own moderated groups is probably the way to go. It costs about £50 for a year to open a group which might be an option: I’ll see how it goes after I’ve used it for a while and how many indy twitter exiles join up. If nothing else it could provide a good forum in the run up to #HR2021 for list-only party discussions without the prospect of being randomly terminated by the Woko Haram types who did for Stu & others.

    169. Millennium says:

      Sorry lads and lassies,

      But since the Rev gently highlighted it last week, all I can see when I look at the @FOWings logo is:-

      FUCK OFF WINGS!!!

      Trying to think of a different acronym just as a bit of fun.

    170. Millennium says:

      Mike d 10.24

      I would be first to sign up for war, FOR the country england was fighting against.

      And am no jokin’

    171. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Millennium 9.24 am

      Uncalled for inappropriate not needed.

    172. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Ian Brotherhood

      I had a look at Wikipedia’s Gab page … The authors conspire to make it sound like the kind of place you would go if you wanted to eavesdrop on a conversation between Martin Bormann, Adolph Eichmann and Klaus Barbie.

      Howevermany alt-right American nut-jobs post on Gab, it was obvious that the blurb was compiled by the same brand of reality-bending, shape-shifting, fascists that are out to get the Rev.

    173. Millennium says:

      Jason

      And a good morning to you

      You must be another member of the Scottish Flat Earth Society (Sturgeon apologist)

      I don’t see anything wrong with two concenting adults doing something they both feel comfortable with,,,but you obviously do.

      How would you like it if Nicola started tell you how to run your life?

      No, I don’t think you would,,but you think it’s alright for you to tell Nicola how to run her life?

    174. Breeks says:

      From ITV News…

      “ Europe’s chief Brexit negotiator has been told there is “significant opposition” to the UK Government’s refusal to consider extending the timetable for talks.

      Both the SNP leader at Westminster Ian Blackford and the acting Liberal Democrat leader Sir Ed Davey have signed a letter to Michel Barnier, supporting an extension to the transition period….”

      Aye. And here was me thinking there’d be heavyweight ultimatums threatening a constitutional collapse of the Union if the colonial injustice of Brexit went ahead…

      But no, let’s write a stern letter, written in cahoots with the illustrious Lib Dem’s, to the school headmistress Michel Barnier, which everybody and his dog knows that Michel Barnier is contractually obliged to ignore, because neither the SNP nor Lib Dem’s are party to UK Brexit negotiations with the Brexit Negotiator. What’s the fkg point of that Mr Blackford? I know it’s a forlorn stunt, and so does Michel Barnier, so who is it you are actually trying to impress?

      Hey! We’re the SNP! Let’s just ignore all the democratic mandates we do have, and start lobbying Michel Barnier with aimless, anodyne pipe dreams that we’ve made upon the spot.

      I am so desperately sick of this spineless cowardice of Scotland’s “Government”, when Scotland could so readily bring the UK Union to the point of constitutional collapse and in so doing, lawfully protect Scotland’s place in Europe.

      Rather than ask the biting and profound Constitutional questions which the Westminster Government could not answer, the SNP just pretends to be relevant by asking lame and impotent alternative questions which the Westminster Government can simply ignore and ridicule without any consequence at all.

      The Scottish Government’s handing of Scotland’s Brexit is a thoroughly embarrassing capitulation and scandal, and an unforgivable betrayal of the Scottish people that is well worthy of the impeachment and sacking of all of those involved. Yet these toothless poodles will be shrugging their shoulders, claiming “they tried”, and lobbying for our votes and another fresh mandate to keep their snouts in the Holyrood trough next year. What a fking con!

      Scotland, dear Scotland, Independence is DEAD and buried until these SNP frauds are drummed out of their seats and got out of the way. Every day is a January 31st Groundhog Day under the SNP’s “leadership”. You hope, and you hope, and you hope, and they spit in your eye.

      Scotland deserves nothing less than it’s unconstitutional, undemocratic, unlawful and corrupt colonial subjugation by Brexit to be set out before the UN, and at the very minimum, some form of arbitration sought, whereby the Constitutional Sovereignty of Scotland is properly respected.

      Why don’t you write that letter Mr Blackford? Formally dispute a UK Sovereignty which subjugates the will of one nation by another?

      What’s wrong? Have the Wokes got your tongue? Or were you just lip syncing for the cameras when you talked about the Sovereign will of the Scottish people? All you really wanted was a nice wee video to pin on your Twitter feed eh? Job done.

    175. cirsium says:

      Ian Brotherhood – regarding an alternative to Twitter, is there any mileage in VKontakte?

    176. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @cirsium –

      Cheers.

      Anyone else know anything about using that?

    177. cirsium says:

      @breeks, 11.03am
      Yet these toothless poodles will be shrugging their shoulders, claiming “they tried”, and lobbying for our votes and another fresh mandate to keep their snouts in the Holyrood trough next year.

      Is this not what the interest in Universal Basic Income is, one of the new carrots to keep people voting for the SNP? It’s a safer option than land reform since land reform could be started now but UBI would have to wait until Scotland was independent. It could even be the SNP’s equivalent to the Labour Party’s House of Lords policy. The subject of UBI will have to be researched in depth as it could be hijacked by the proponents of ID2020.

    178. Andy Ellis says:

      @cirsium 11.17am

      I dunno about Ian and others, but I think I’d be more concerned at a Russian owned/operated site than by Gab, Minds, Manyverse/Scuttlebutt?

      I know Stu Campbell said previously that he doubted the usefulness of having a “Wings only” Mastodon instance (risk of it being an echo chamber etc) and also thought it might cost too much & be too much admin?

      To be honest I think there is a case to be made for having an online forum for Wings & list-only party supporters which is immune to the prospect of being banned, which points toward an unmoderated platform. Any of those are going to require a certain amount of “nose holding” but not sure we should be making the perfect the enemy of the good.

    179. robertknight says:

      Breeks…

      A wee reminder of past performances on the part of one Ian Blackford MP…

      “We cannot, and we will not, allow Scotland to follow Theresa May or Boris Johnson off the cliff-edge.”

      “Scotland’s voice must be heard and it must be respected. Scotland will not be dragged out of the EU against our will.”

      “Scotland did not vote to leave the EU, and we must not be dragged out against our will.”

      “We are simply not prepared to sit back and allow Boris Johnson and the Vote Leave campaign that have been running the government in London to take us out of the union against our will! We will not allow Boris Johnson to rip us away from Europe and deny the rights that EU citizens have here in Scotland.”

      “Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain and we will not allow our country to be dragged out…”

      “‘We will not allow Scotland to be dragged out of the single market and…”

      I could go on. Hollow words from a hollow man…

      Dear Mr Blackford, we, the electorate, will not allow ourselves to be hoodwinked again by your bombastic bluster and empty rhetoric, nor by similar performances on the part of the other 46 paper tigers who surround you.

      The SNP Westminster Group under your stewardship have collectively demonstrated all the qualities of a busted flush.

    180. cirsium says:

      @Andy Ellis, 11.17am
      Yes, the drawbacks to using vK would be the prevailing Russophobia as you have just indicated. There is also the question of reach.

      I came across Vkontakte because I read Pepe Escobar. His articles plus his comments on vK give a good haul of information. His use of vKontakte is a recommendation for me.

    181. robbo says:

      Millennium says:
      18 May, 2020 at 10:42 am
      Mike d 10.24

      I would be first to sign up for war, FOR the country england was fighting against.

      And am no jokin’

      ————

      Wid yie, aye?

    182. Republicofscotland says:

      Highland councillor wants army deployed on border to stop people coming into Scotland during the lockdown.

      Doesn’t this councillor realise that Scotland pays its share for the upkeep of the army which is controlled by a foreign nations government, that more often than not just simply ignores any Scottish request.

      Oh there’s Scots personnel serving in the army, but that doesn’t make a blind bit of difference. We in Scotland are left at the hand of fate as to what Westminster decides where and when the army should be deployed or not. We are a colony, and we’ll continue to be treated as one until we become independent.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/18456390.highland-councillor-deploy-army-border-stop-lockdown-trips/

    183. CameronB Brodie says:

      The SNP clearly don’t understand or respect constitutional law, and are ignorant of how human rights work. Their legal parochialism poses as much a threat to Scotland as English Torydum. Scotland needs more effective defense against BritNat totalitarianism.

    184. Joe says:

      @Golfnut

      Im happy to debate you any time. No avoidance here. Of course I WILL be dismissed as a troll the minute someone finds they might have to rethink something they have held to be true. Thats how an echo chamber works. See?

      @Everyone

      You don’t have to use Gab. Find something else. Bit of advice though – you either have a free speech platform or you don’t. You don’t get a free speech platform that also definitely doesn’t contain people with views you find abhorrent.

      If you want that then wrap yourselves in cotton wool, slip that giant condom over yourselves and stick to twitter. The trouble is you will be censored by people who find your own views abhorrent. So better not say anything important.

      There is a reason most of these platforms are right wing – we are the ones who have been censored for years while many of you cheered it on.

      ‘First they came for right wing, and I did nothing…’

      Welcome to the club of deplorables.

    185. Andy Ellis says:

      @cirsium 11.17am

      I’m not sure it’s Russophobia as much as being concerned about ownership and direction. I have my doubts about RT/Sputnik, Al Jazeera and Press TV but it doesn’t follow that I’m a Russophobe, Qatariphobe or Iranophobe as a result. The fact Escobar uses it may be recommendation enough for you, but not sure it’s conclusive proof it’s A-OK, anymore than the fact Salmond uses RT allows us to say we can’t still think RT’s output generally needs to be treated with caution, even if we don’t write it off.

      It’s legitimate to be concerned about the ownership and direction of Gab, Minds and other alternative forums, just as it is to question the ownerhip, policies and procedures of “traditional” media and more established social media platforms like Facebook, Twitter etc.

      When I was researching virus protection SW many people advised against using Kaspersky for example, but I and many others – including many companies – use them with no particular qualms.

    186. Andy Ellis says:

      @ Joe 12.23pm

      I agree with much of what you say, tho’ I think you may be being a tad unfair to many of those who are not “of the right” who are now looking for alternatives to twitter. Ever since my student days back in the 1980’s I’ve felt uncomfortable about the propensity of too many on the political left of centre to seek to no-platform political opponents.

      There is obviously a debate to be had about where you draw the line with respect to support for groups which are accused of supporting e.g. terrorism, racism, hate speech etc. I suppose over the years I’ve probably moved more towards a position of supporting a US Constitutional 1st Amendment style right to free speech, because I see greater danger in the curtailment of liberties attendant on deciding who to ban than in allowing the most wide ranging rights “we the people” feel are appropriate.

      Absent any more attractive alternative, I’m actually quite drawn to the prospect of using a platform like Gab, partly because most Mastodon instances are little better than twitter when it comes to stifling any criticism of the woke Stasi, and partly because it will give all the right people an aneurism – both the alt-right nutters who tend to dominate the platform and the twitler Youth and their useful idiots within the SNP and broader Yes movement.

    187. CameronB Brodie says:

      Although pluralism of thought is essential to sustainability, I’ve no time for those on the right of politics, as the right-wing tends to have no regard for human rights. English Torydum is a perfect example of this (see austerity and Brexit).

      Universal basic income policies and their potential for
      addressing health inequities
      Transformative approaches to a healthy, prosperous life for all

      http://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/404387/20190606-h1015-ubi-policies-en.pdf?ua=1

    188. Col.Blimp 1V at 9.47

      If you have nothing constructive to say then please do not write such absolute rubbish.
      As a woman I actually find your post quite offensive.

      I think the phrase is ‘play the ball not the man’ and whilst not exactly the most apt phrase for this post the sentiment is valid.

    189. Black Rab says:

      Mist001

      For as long as I can remember, the London financial times and the Wall St Journal have had Scotland placed 14th richest country in the world minus the gas and oil, and England placed 18th minus the gas and oil………..but we know that England doubles as the UK so, with England taking 85% population share of the oil and the drillers getting a bigger chunk than Scotland, Scotland is still wealthier per capita than England. The UK has a magic money tree, it’s called The Bank of England. It prints money, mostly to bail out bankers and corporations. The Bailout classes in other words.



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