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Be the change you want to see

Posted on June 15, 2014 by

The Sunday Mail has an editorial leader today about “cybernats”, in which the Daily Record’s sister paper offers the view that far too much attention is given to these clowns”. It’s a good point – there’s been a surfeit of coverage of the subject lately.

cybermail

From the last four days alone. Why can’t people just stop going on about them, eh?

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    1. 15 06 14 13:26

      Be the change you want to see | Scottish Independence News

    118 to “Be the change you want to see”

    1. maaarghk says:

      Link’s broken, here’s a working one:
      https://archive.today/sZMUn

    2. handclapping says:

      Do what I say, not what I do. … Nah, we’ve grown up since then.

    3. Dan Huil says:

      # I’m a cybernat and I’m okay, I sleep all night and I type all day…

    4. Calgacus says:

      The only trolls I can see are of the unionist msm variety

    5. For those who have not yet seen it there is now a Wizards for Indy facebook page.

      https://www.facebook.com/wizardsforindy

      “Yes speaker derided by No speaker for saying a “Yes vote would work like a disarming charm, except instead of Expelliarmus it would be Expellitories,” but the audience seemed to like it #Hufflepuffindydebate”

    6. bunter says:

      Wish my old dad would not read these vile rags, I actually have to buy them for him aaargh.

      He will still vote YES though.

    7. Kestral says:

      FLYERS ARE BEING DELIVERED TOMORROW

      I HAVE ONLY ORDER 5000 AT THE MOMENT

      GET YOU WINGS OVER SCOTLAND FLYERS HERE

      http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=181438832713

    8. Sinky says:

      This Lallygate story is already yesterday’s chip wrappers and only used to detract from Alistair Darling’s neo nazi comments and narrowing opinion polls.

      From Sunday Times this morning
      THE BBC needs to “sharpen up” its coverage of Scotland, according to one of Britain’s most distinguished foreign correspondents who claims nationalists are being unfairly treated.

      Angus Roxburgh, the broadcaster’s former Moscow correspondent, said Salmond was “spot on” to complain that UKIP’s unexpected European election success in Scotland was partly due to the extent to which Nigel Farage had been “beamed” into the country.

      He said the episode, which highlighted a fundamental problem affecting Scottish television, helped UKIP to win a seat at the expense of the Greens who received scant TV coverage “whereas Farage was rarely off it”.

    9. Richy Duncan says:

      The hypocrites are at it again .

      So business as usual then. Funnily enough they blame Indi supporters for most and ignore the comments on the like of the Guardian and even the Daily retard.

      Msm are the ones who changed from the debate to scares and smears. Now it’s cops out to hunt JK Rowleys trolls. Will they find the MI5 agent behind it all??

    10. Marcia says:

      Dan Huil

      🙂

      I can hear Michael Palin’s voice as I read that.

    11. Matt Seattle says:

      Jim Sillars warned that the British security services are bound to be playing their part to ‘protect’ the perceived interests of the state, in a piece where he also warned Independence supporters against abusing opponents.

      Joining the dots, is it not rather likely that the source of some of the alleged vile abuse (which I have not actually seen) is, shall we speculate, someone other than vile cybernats masquerading as such?

      Just because you’re paranoid it doesn’t mean etc. etc.

    12. BuckieBraes says:

      Given that Wings is being described as the rallying point for all the worst elements of ‘cybernattery’, it would be interesting to go through a sample of BTL comments to find what proportion of them actually do contain any kind of offensive language. I’m not undertaking this myself, mind you, having better things to do with my time; but I’m fairly sure the proportion of comments threatening to execute people, or using gratuitous bad language, or making uncalled-for remarks about our opponents’ appearance, must be very small.

      Free speech can be inspiring; or it can be trite, insulting and puerile. The manufactured outrage we are seeing has less to do with the ill-advised outpourings of a minority, and more to do with the way many in the mainstream media cannot stomach seeing popular debate moving outside the limits of their precious bubble. In a desperate attempt to maintain their own perceived supremacy and legitimacy, they try to smear us.

      But the journalistic closed shop has gone; we are doing it for ourselves, not waiting for some oh-so-wise commentator in the press to tell us what to think. Even Stu can barely keep us under control here, which is a good thing too.

      Deal with it guys; deal with it!

    13. Helena Brown says:

      I note that Wings Twitter page is littered with rude illiterate comments, funnily enough none written by us. Only saying. As for M15, I expect they will be involved. too much money for Westminster to lose.

    14. Ann says:

      As if BetterTogether, NoThanks have the moral high ground on this.

      Are the police chasing up the trolls who had a go at the Weirs? Not a chance.

      Ach! who cares. Three months to go to a hopefully better Scotland for all.

      All their muck raking,lies and name calling is continually being refuted and is doing them no good.

    15. Sinky says:

      Labour’s legacy in Iraq has led to Sunni-led militants tightening their grip on towns in the north and east of Iraq, sparking concerns that their advance south could put the output of the region’s second biggest oil producer at risk.

      Brent crude hit $114.69 on Friday, its highest level since last September, and its biggest weekly gain this year. Analysts say a loss of Iraqi supply could add $30 to the price.

      Spiking oil prices heaped further pressure on airlines, already hurt by a profit warning from Germany’s Lufthansa. British Airways’ parent, International Airlines Group, was down almost 10% on the week, closing at 379p. EasyJet fell 9.1% on a week earlier and Thomas Cook was down 11%.

    16. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

      I am Cybernatacus.

    17. Capella says:

      Always look on the bright side of life! Think of the thousands of curious Daily Mail vistors coming to WOS to read the ghastly comments for themselves! As they scroll thorough acres of posts in the hope of finding venom, they are sure to be getting an education at the same time. They probably never knew that Scotland has always had its own separate NHS since 1948 which will greatly benefit from Independence.

    18. ronnie anderson says:

      @BuckieBraes, ( even Stu can barely keep us under control here)

      Are you talking about the all seeing, all hearing, all knowing Rev,dont draw attention to yourself, he can have a twitchy finger sometimes on a ban button lol.

      But yes I would agree with your points,if it werent for the fact that in compileing any abusive posts,the Rev would have more work to do.

      let the sewer Jounalists do their own trolling,they do FA
      but,give us the vile oppinions.

    19. Robert Kerr says:

      But who is Cybernaticus Superbus?

      The Rev?

    20. Onwards says:

      The hypocrisy of the JK Rowling statement gets me.

      She was getting her defense in early by basically calling anyone who disagreed ‘death eaters’ – the racist characters from her books, who wanted a ‘pure blood’ society.

      No mention of the extremists from the unionist side, or the more open approach to immigrants of the SNP government, or the huge UKIP support in England.

      She is entitled to her view, but it was obviously going to offend a lot of people – who aren’t racist, but just want Scotland to get the governments and policies that people here vote for.

      I read her full statement again, and it comes across as fake.
      The appearance of someone appearing to weight both sides equally before cautiously picking a side.
      Someone in a hesitant position is hardly likely to then donate a huge sum of money to one side.

      At least the Weirs made no secret of the fact that they were life long nationalists.

    21. Seasick Dave says:

      Robert

      But who is Cybernaticus Superbus?

      Is that like the Better Together Bus?

    22. Dorothy Devine says:

      I give thanks each day for Wings , Wee ginger Dug ,Derek Bateman, Bella , Lallands and many more and for all those below the line who offer other insights and links.

      Scotlands folk need you all as an antidote to lies ,skulduggery and smears.

      The faux outrage over cybernats enrages me – particularly when the paid ” gentlemen and ladies ” of the press have been busily twisting , manipulating and smearing in their columns .
      Their pretence of innocence has worn thin to the point of transparency.

    23. alexicon says:

      Is this the same daily record?

      http://news.sky.com/story/850269/jo-landlord-sues-newspapers

      Some neck.

    24. Robert Kerr says:

      I am confused.

      Does the Better Together Bus go to No Thanks or Unthank (q.v.)

    25. Tam Jardine says:

      I think that throwing almost 100% of the media against the democratic process and against the perfectly legitimate desire of a large proportion of the electorate has consequences.

      Ordinary people are exasperated. People on the fringes and in the mainstream feel they are up against an all encompassing enemy. Any whirlwind raised is down to the media’s impartiality, pure and simple. The rightious indignation is tactics, pure and simple and is hideous to behold.

      The other consequence of the media’s behaviour is the empowerment and energising of those maniacs on the no side who have absolute impunity to vent bile and abuse the Yes side. Why would any unionist troll feel they need to rein in their attacks when the media is complicit in covering it all up? Why not go further?

      Radicalising is the wrong word with the wrong connotations. Infuriated into action is how I would describe myself. I have supported Scottish Independence for many years. The reason I have engaged with Wings and this quiet, reserved fellow has found himself organising the Wings Edinburgh night out (4th July, Newsroom, 7.30-8pm, all welcome) is due to the imbalance in the media.

      The media’s actions have consequences. They deserve condemnation for their attempts to destroy the debate.

      Who also deserves condemnation are the abusive degenerates calling folk nazis, c**ts, ("Quizmaster" - Ed)s or whatever, whether they be maniacs cloaked in anonymity, journalists, politicians or former chancellors of the exchequer.

      Vote Yes

    26. No no no...Yes says:

      I checked out the link to the “Sunday Mail Opinion: Examples should be made of online trolls on either side of the Independence Polls”
      “There will no doubt be associate professors of Twitterology totting up the pro and anti-loonies online as we speak but, unfortunately for the Nats, it seems that most of these brainless wonders are on their side.”
      Question: Where is the evidence of this, what research have they done?

      “Many Scots thinking about voting Yes will look at the abuse hurled at JK Rowling – a talented, big-hearted Scot in all but birthplace – and wonder if they really want to put their cross in the same box as these dumplings.”

      Many Scots are not stupid and will not be swayed by the ‘dumplings.” More and more Scots are now looking at the bigger picture and thinking about the question, “Should Scotland be an independent country?”

      People are now more aware it is not about the SNP or Alex Salmond.
      People need to be made aware that in 2016 Scotland will have the opportunity to vote for a government of its choosing.

      The “Scotland’s Future” document is the SNP proposal and the others in the Scottish parliament NOW need to start looking at what their proposals will be.
      Good to see the latest polls, how ever not pleased at PRO FEAR SIR Curtice’s usual biased analysis:http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2014/06/more-movement-to-yes-icm-and-panelbase-polls/ Why he use of the question mark?”

    27. WeeGingerDug says:

      Slightly off topic – could someone please tell me the name of the journalist who Gordon Brewer interviewed along with George Kerevan on the Scottish Politics Show today – I didn’t catch her name, but she made the jaw dropping assertion that it was unreasonable to point out that Clare/Claire Lally is a member of the Labour Shadow Cabinet.

    28. Tam Jardine says:

      BuckieBraes

      The MSM, Better Together and the UK government will be spending plenty of time monitoring this site. I have yet to see an abusive comment held up for public scrutiny by the media which makes me feel like the level of discussion is where it needs to be.

      Make no mistake, anything abusive which is not blocked by the Rev will be blown up by the MSM. Of course some of the language is agricultural, and some are offended by this but I have not seen any evidence of Brian Wilson’s allegations.

      We have Stuart to thank for keeping the site clear of anyone crossing the line, and weeding out agent provocateurs I am sure. He wades through some detritous on our behalf.

      There is also a healthy dose of self policing. What we are seeing is a desperate attempt to attack this vehicle for truth by some very scared elements of the establishment.

    29. Anne says:

      Off topic, forgive me, but I am concerned to see the Iraq crisis being featured so prominently in the press. And Tony Blair’s call to arms – will he never learn – is sure to keep it there. My sense is that the coalition, now getting nervous that the unequivocal no vote they were confidently predicting is beginning to fall apart, will be looking out for excuses to suspend the referendum.

    30. Papadox says:

      Tony Bliar. EBC PROPAGANDA CHANNEL13:00

      We will need to kill a few more ARABS. That man and his master Bush created this shambles and the BRITISH ESTABLISHMENT stick him on the EBC NEWS to justify it and beat the war drums again.

      That man should be behind bars not in front of the TV cameras trying to save his own skin, and trying to justify the killing of more poor Arabs for oil.

      We will be getting him and Hilary doing a duo on why Scotland should be kept by the ESTABLISHMENT as a sign of British power and control of the “world” GOD SAVE US.

    31. Mary Bruce says:

      How come media outlets like Wings have to register with the electoral commission but the Daily Record doesn’t?

    32. Nana Smith says:

      @Weeginger dug

      I think it was Jackie Bailie?

    33. Sinky says:

      Peter says

      Calling people ("Quizmaster" - Ed)s won’t win any referendum. Please desist.

    34. Kestral says:

      Only ten left out of the 50 I put up

      I am now going to order 15000 leaflets as you have nearly finish my stock already.

      Yeah ha

      love every one of you for your enthusiasm and belief in your people

      Will get the order away today

    35. Proud Cybernat says:

      Trolls lurk on the internet? Who knew?

    36. Cindie says:

      Eddi Reader just tweeted this: ‘A non on-line lady was at my coffee afternoon for discussion.. She says she came because she never sees the ‘yes’ argument in the paper’

      I think the reason that the MSM is shouter ever louder is that fewer and fewer people are listening. People are not stupid, what they are being told is completely contrary to their own experience so they are seeking out the truth for themselves.

      My son just popped along to the Yes Aberdeen event, which included a preview of the Aye Inspired art exhibition, he said it was a fantastic atmosphere. Loads of people there, he came away with a flag a badge and a big smile. He’s been campaigning for quite a while, but today he said he felt really encouraged and inspired. He said he could hardly get near because of all the people crowded around wanting to find out more

    37. TheItalianJob says:

      @Anne says:

      “Off topic, forgive me, but I am concerned to see the Iraq crisis being featured so prominently in the press. And Tony Blair’s call to arms – will he never learn – is sure to keep it there. My sense is that the coalition, now getting nervous that the unequivocal no vote they were confidently predicting is beginning to fall apart, will be looking out for excuses to suspend the referendum.”

      Funningly enough this also crossed my mind.

      Unlikely, however we live in interesting times.

    38. WeeGingerDug says:

      @Nana Smith

      No it wasn’t Jacquie Baillie. I’d recognise her! Towards the end of the programme Gordon Brewer interviewed George Kerevan and a female journalist whose name I didn’t catch. Cathy something? I think.

    39. Liz Quinn says:

      @weegingerdug
      Her name is Kirsty Scott.Has had pieces in the Herald I think.
      Myjaw,too,dropped.

    40. bookie from hell says:

      Thought England played well,unlucky not to draw to Italy

      Im lumping on England to beat Uruguay

      still voting Yes thou

    41. Les Wilson says:

      Nana Smith says:

      And there was me thinking it was a portly understudy!
      However, but I am relatively sure that she licked her lips when A, Neil mentioned hot dogs, that made me think that she was the real thing after all!

    42. kendomacaroonbar says:

      @Wee Ginger Dug

      The name is Kirsty Scott, journalist and author.

    43. muttley79 says:

      @WeeGingerDug

      Slightly off topic – could someone please tell me the name of the journalist who Gordon Brewer interviewed along with George Kerevan on the Scottish Politics Show today – I didn’t catch her name, but she made the jaw dropping assertion that it was unreasonable to point out that Clare/Claire Lally is a member of the Labour Shadow Cabinet.

      Kirsty Scott is her name. I watched Sunday Politics. I could not believe it when she started off by saying Clare Lally was an ordinary mother, but then admitted she was in the shadow cabinet (is it SLAB’s or as part of British Labour’s?). Apparently this Pravda style journalist also teaches journalism. So there we have it, Gunn was wrong to mention Claire Lally’s SLAB connections! Apparently it is not relevant at all in Kirsty Scott’s world… 😀 😀 You just cannot make up what these characters are coming out with. 😀 It really is the twilight zone of political journalism.

    44. fairiefromtheearth says:

      Oh and i know i come out with a lot of negative shit, i dont want to join the EU NATO and a currency union but their all negative to me so not joining would be positive for Scotland.

    45. Tam Jardine says:

      Peter

      Was my criticism of AD not explicit enough in my comment above? You’ve jumped on my attempt to be even handed as if that’s the wrong approach – I just don’t see anyone from Yes descending to the level of the press or no camp turning anyone from DK to Yes.

      Whatever we feel, I don’t think calling anyone a ("Quizmaster" - Ed) will gain a single vote for Yes. AD’s abuse won’t turn anyone to No either.

    46. muttley79 says:

      @Peter

      You are doing the MSM’s job for them. Can you please think about the consequences of your posts?

    47. orri says:

      Gringot’s, we’re Nazis, No?

      The Ministry of Magic already looked like something out of Brazil/1984 at the start of the series.

      No Thanks does look a bit familiar.

      http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=magic+8+ball+app&rlz=1C1CHMO_en-GBGB542GB542&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=tpOdU9PPLO-X0AXw84GoBw&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg&biw=1280&bih=713

      I assume it only gives one answer though.

      Let’s call it the less Tragic Niet Ball.

    48. WeeGingerDug says:

      Ah Kirsty Scott – thanks.

    49. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Peter

      Fick that

      I really don’t think you are wanted here if that is the sum total of your opinion.

    50. eezy says:

      My Dad and all of his three pals still buy the Record.
      That’s just what they do.
      It’s habitual and I get that.
      All of them are voting YES.
      Auld Guys Rule!

    51. MoJo says:

      an attempt here by Alex Massie to get things back in proportion http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/06/the-shocking-secret-truth-about-scotlands-independence-debate-it-is-civilised/
      Time to move on from picking over last weeks No-sense and channel collective energy into getting the positive message out to growing WoS readership

    52. MD says:

      They’re trying to silence us or provoke an extreme reaction.

      We will win by doing neither. Keep Calm and Carry On as they themselves might say.

    53. Jon D says:

      @Wee Ginger Dug

      It was Kirsty Scott, Journalist

      This may interest you

      http://careintheuk.wordpress.com/tag/kirsty-scott/

    54. Macart says:

      Its true.

      They do think we’re morons. They seem absolutely convinced that the public, even after the enormous stooshie that was the Leveson inquiry, believe in the moral authority and unapproachable objectivity of the press.

      Naw, we really, really don’t. 😀

    55. HandandShrimp says:

      I think it is probably unfair and vindictive to link Kirsty Scott to journalism. You are just being mean, nasty cybergnats

      😉

    56. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Macart

      What Leveson Report?

    57. joe kane says:

      Find, lift and convict 20 of the worst and most poisonous. Let the others know that what they write on Twitter and Facebook has consequences not just for their wounded, intimidated targets but for themselves and their families.
      – Can you imagine the howls of Unionist outrage if Alex Salmond and the SNP had run a campaign of lies and smears in order to demonise and dehumanise their political opponents in order to silence them and at the end of it all called on the police to make an example of the 20 worst offenders?

    58. Brotyboy says:

      @sinky, Tam Jardine, muttley79

      +1

    59. Kestral says:

      @peter

      People are entitled to their views, that is there right

      whether you agree with those views is your right

      Calling them names will never change those views

      Debating with them might, point out mistakes in their logic might

      Calling them names lowers the tone and that affects every one of us yes or no because it serves no purpose

      And at the moment is actually incredibly detriment to us

      So please stop the name calling

    60. bookie from hell says:

      anybody?has David Hasselhoff declared NO yet?

    61. Macart says:

      @BTP

      Yeah, although published back in November 2012 those wags at the press seem to have lifted the corner of the rug and swept the whole thing, inquiry and all, underneath. Planted an ACME anvil on top and then buried it under a ton of celebrity news and Alicsammin bashing ever since.

      A week’s a long time in either politics or meejaland seems to be their motto. 😉

    62. Jim Marshall says:

      I am in general agreement that name calling is counter productive and should stop even though in moments of anger I have indulged in it. Swearing and the use of sexual expletives are also degrading to the user.

      Another form of name calling is attaching the prefix Scottish where it is not justified as in SLab,Slibdem etc. There is nothing Scottish whatsoever about these organisations and we should not be giving them credibility by describing them as such. These organisations are UK wide parties who have some members in Scotland.

    63. TD says:

      Imagine if from this point forward, not a single offensive tweet or comment was made by Yes supporters and No just carried on as they are. How powerful would that be? We, individually, can decide to do this. We don’t need to call people names – like ("Quizmaster" - Ed) (@Peter). We can win on the basis of rational, logical argument. Why spoil it by surrendering the moral high ground?

    64. Robert Peffers says:

      Correct me if I’m wrong but did not Ms Rowling compare YES supporters to the most evil fictional character her own fevered brain has dreamed up?

      Not to mention that Ms Rowling is the acknowledged greatest expert on fiction writing in Scottish history. Perhaps, being such an expert, she has trouble distinguishing between truth and fiction.

      As to the other offended lady. Perhaps she might explain for us what she finds so insulting about being mistaken for a relative of a well respected former leading member of the political party to which she has pledged her alliance and is in truth a leading member herself?

      She may indeed be an ordinary mother but is also an extraordinary member of the Labour Party in Scotland’s shadow cabinet.

      Is she perhaps ashamed to be known as a leading member of the Labour Party in Scotland? Strange she seems ashamed to be thought related to a well respected former Labour leading light and to admit to being in their shadow cabinet.

    65. Onwards says:

      @bookie from hell
      has David Hasselhoff declared NO yet?

      One good thing is that just about every big name celebrity has now said their piece.

      Obama & Clinton – No to the UK ‘losing’ Scotland.
      Harry Potter is concerned about the Deatheaters
      Andy Murray is keeping out of it.
      The Pope is in the middle: “a case by case basis”
      Billy Connolly was previously a NO, but seems a bit undecided now.
      He does “not have a great belief in the Union of England and Scotland”
      Big Sean is obviously a YES.
      “The opportunity of independence is too good to miss”

      Now we can get on with the actual debate.

    66. WeeGingerDug says:

      @John D

      Ah thank you – I’m writing a blog post on how the original issue of carers’ rights has been lost amidst the crap about mythical cybernats. And there was something bugging me about Ms Scott and carers’ issues that was lurking at the back of my brain but I couldn’t drag it up from the recesses of my addled mind. That story is it.

    67. heedtracker says:

      Ordinary vote no mumlabour shadow cabinet member in concocted peril got massive puff from politics show Andrew Neil today but on balance it’s a very easy attack strategy. Fake up Gunn/BetterTogether outrage, throw a few cybernat insults on twitter and that’s your BBC/Itv vote no or there’ll be trouble for a week at least.

      It looks like it’s all been for nowt but what next from MI5 and BBC Pacifc Quay?

    68. Onwards says:

      Perhaps we should have Plus/Minus/Complain buttons on posts.

      Then we can see the overall opinion when there is the occasional moronic comment.

      Whether it is from a genuine independence supporter or otherwise.

    69. JGedd says:

      I agree entirely that straightforward personal abuse against opponents is uncalled for and I have never indulged in that kind of thing. However, I’m getting a little bit concerned that one of the aims of all the demonizing of “cybernat” attacks was to make people on the Yes side jittery and over-cautious.

      In all the brouhaha about Ms Lally and JK Rowling certain important points were lost. Personal attacks are definitely wrong and I’m sure most sensible people know exactly where legitimate criticism of someone’s views ends and personal vilification and insults begin.

      Both Ms Rowling and Ms Lally made political points which deserved to be challenged but because of the shindig caused by some stupid and repugnant comments made to Ms Rowling these points were lost in the general mayhem and these ladies became virtually untouchable by normal standards of debate.

      I tend to agree with Iain MacWhirter that a little righteous anger would not go amiss. There is well-documented abuse from Britnats which should be released and it’s time that we stopped being on the back foot all the time. For instance what about the abuse directed at the Weirs, who to my knowledge did not treat us to any political opinions?

      We are at risk of becoming witch-hunters of our own supporters. Abuse is wrong, but let us not close down robust debate. From what I’ve learned, Twitter is ablaze anyway with scurrilous abuse and it’s not just mysogynism which is a blight on what should be normal discourse. It is not the fault of cybernata and is by no means one-sided.

      (Sorry about the length. Can’t do word-bites.)

    70. JGedd says:

      @ Wee Ginger Dug

      Very timely, Wee Ginger Dug. Look forward to your blog on this subject. Time to bite back.

    71. heedtracker says:

      On Andrew Neil politics show this morn, Jakie Baillie got very excited from the off but she used the word violence in her response to Neil’s list of phoney attacks from yes voters on Lally and Rowling.

      Cod psychology shows that words like violence from Ballie to Andrew Neil are at the forefront of her thought processes and so she blurts them out under say TV studio stress. It’s more than likely that the next stage for BetterTogether is to try and really deter people from Scottish independence and it’s quite likely the reason why Baillie blurted out the next BBC/MI5 phase in their ever more desperate vote no campaign. Bailie’s been preparing to go back on TV soon with more bad yes vote stuff, really bad. Or not.

    72. AndyB says:

      Its to be expected from the Trinity Mirror Group, of which the Daily Record and Sunday mail are part of, and their main goal is to push the unionist agenda, fairness and equality with regards to the referendum just doesn’t come in to it.

      Meanwhile Canada’s Liberal Senator Dennis Dawson has been advising the no camp, on how to be more subtle, in the run up to the vote,Mr Dawson helped draw up the “Non Merci” or No Thanks to independence of Quebec in 1995.

      It appears the no camp are receiving advise from Canada now, on how to conduct a successful campaign for a no vote.

      http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jun/15/scottish-independence-yes-campaign-john-reid

    73. Dick Gaughan says:

      JGedd says:
      We are at risk of becoming witch-hunters of our own supporters.

      Point well-made, excellent post.

      There are way too many people whose sole contribution here seems to be to pop up every so often with demands that others post in a certain way – “stop swearing”, “don’t make personal insults” etc etc.

      We’re Scots, people – the fastest way to make us do something is to preach “gaunnae no dae that?” Reeks strongly of classrooms and pulpits and makes the perpetrators look like a bunch of hectoring control-freaks.

      I’m not going to start speculating as to why they do this, or why they think it will have any success, but it is tedious and counter-productive. What people have to say is much more important than the words with which they say it.

      As well as demanding that we show tolerance towards our opponents, let’s try demonstrating a wee bit towards our own.

    74. AndyB says:

      O/T.

      Alex Salmond on Clyde 2 Radio today confirmed, that there is indeed a gigantic oilfield west of Shetland just waiting to be tapped in to, Mr Salmond also confirmed that Westminster stopped any extraction of potential oil gas, fields in the Firth of Clyde, because of the nuclear submarines, and WMD’s.

    75. TJenny says:

      Re the current nasty cybernat slurs, especially liking the lyrics to this boppy Brenda Lee song ‘Speak to me Pretty’ – should be the ethos of all us cybernats. 🙂

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xq5BvDFUpnA

    76. Kestral says:

      @TD – well said

      We can win on the basis of rational, logical argument. Why spoil it by surrendering the moral high ground?

      @JGedd Yes side jittery and over-cautious

      Didn’t stop me finding the CL twitter account was for friends only and her statements that she was bombarded was impossible on twitter – caveat I can’t find facebook evidence where she may have received posts, however all the evidence used in the press was twitter

      Didn’t stop me finding that the press association edited thier article to remove all reference to what Clair said and that the only reason I could locate part of the statement was due to google having indexed the original news item

      Not once have I called her a name, but I have done what this site has taught me to do, investigate and report what I found in a non abusive manner

      we have the right to ask questions, to refute statements such as this

      “she has complained that she has been bombarded with online abuse as a consequence”

      when in fact she actually had to go hunt down the tweets

      Don’t think any of the newspapers stories will stop us from doing what 99.9% of us do

      Asking how we have got to a situation where journalism has become a slavery to the rich and not a source of pride, balance, consideration to those who’s life they affect, ours

      these people are whom we look to to make and form our opinions (before the internet has taken hold)

      I have slowly realised that winning an independent Scotland is only the beginning of my journey

      Making my country a better place is a life long task

    77. muttley79 says:

      @Dick Gaughan

      If you cannot see how posters describing unionists as “("Quizmaster" - Ed) and ("Tractor" - Ed)s” is not damaging to the Yes campaign, then there really is not much left to say.

    78. K1 says:

      TD, Im quite taken with the idea that you have put forward:
      “Imagine if from this point forward, not a single offensive tweet or comment was made by Yes supporters and No just carried on as they are. How powerful would that be?”

      I’d extend it into a pre organised mass response from Yes. I don’t know if this is just a whimsical idea or whether it is even possible?

      If a day could be designated in the not too distant future, as a ‘#downday’ or ‘#OnlyYesDay’ social media event. Where not a single tweet is sent regarding any negative aspect of the referendum and all blogs and commenters focused for this day on disseminating positive information, which could include what events/debates are being held all over Scotland on that day etc. And not a tweet was sent in ‘reaction’ to any MSM news for that one day.

      Not only would this be a powerful display of self control, but it would give a snapshot of the true level of engagement and I think in itself would send a message to the MSM; You are irrelevant, we will not be defined by your narative.

      Maybe it’s too idealistic…but it is a wonderful idea!

    79. Schrodinger's Cat says:

      at the rev
      i fully expect to see the faeriefromtheearth and Peters comments
      thrown back in your face the next time someone interviews you, as proof of the depraved nature of the “cybernats”

      thats the 2nd time in 2 days you’ve done that peter

      we are not unaware of agent provocateurs, either desist or wing your way over to the daily mail.

    80. Kestral says:

      Schrodinger’s Cats

      been following your great post on news websites

      frustration, or lack of knowing the counter argument is the reason a lot of people have a need to express themselves in the only manner they know how

      I do think we have to understand how frustrating it is for all of us to not be heard

      I for one know that I have had to spend hours online learning because I am ignorant, not stupid, just didn’t have the time in life to find all these things

      Another Angry Voice has been a revelation to me

      so what do we do, do we spend the time on the 10-20 people in the WHOLE of Scotland who need some help to be able to articulate their feelings better

      I say yes

    81. Dick Gaughan says:

      muttley79 says:
      @Dick Gaughan
      If you cannot see how posters describing unionists as “("Quizmaster" - Ed) and ("Tractor" - Ed)s” is not damaging to the Yes campaign, then there really is not much left to say.

      I must have missed the bit where I said something about “("Quizmaster" - Ed) and ("Tractor" - Ed)s”. Perhaps you could quote it for me and I’ll withdraw it. Otherwise I’ll be forced to draw my own conclusions as to why you’re setting up strawmen.

    82. heedtracker says:

      Hi Schrodinger’s Cat, faeriefromtheearth etc are probably plants but what’s so wrong with britnat teamGB media thinking Scotland’s populated with Monty Python style mad jailers?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpicfnfcEiM&list=RDTpicfnfcEiM#t=165

    83. heedtracker says:

      This is the one SC, sorry!

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpicfnfcEiM

    84. Paula Rose says:

      Dick dear – Muttley was referring to silly little Peter who seems to be a bit lacking in verbal dexterity.

    85. Grouse Beater says:

      If working and making a living in Scotland still has an individual relate only to Westminster, all things British, it usually means they have no politics at all.

      If an individual recognises and acknowledges Scotland is a separate country in a Treaty with its bigger neighbour, then that individual will ask political questions and come to a political opinion. That should be respected.

      Those who live in Scotland, know it has a 1,000 years of history, praise it as a country, yet deny it lacks genuine democracy, should ask themselves what they’re here for?

      The scenery?

    86. scottish_skier says:

      As far as I’m aware, the Rev is the only mod on the site. Push it too far and bye-bye.

      As for dodgy comments, well I doubt there’s a single person in Scotland who’d think e.g. “Hmm, as a long term Labour voter of more centre-left leanings, I was thinking about voting for independence but then I came across a couple of angry comments from this anonymous poster on a blog site I found on the internet and, well, now I’m a full on unionist and shall be voting for UKIP.”

      That’s just not how the world works.

    87. muttley79 says:

      @Dick Gaughan

      You clearly think everyone has the right to say what they want on here, irrespective of the consequences for the wider cause.

    88. Dick Gaughan says:

      Paula Rose says:
      Dick dear – Muttley was referring to silly little Peter who seems to be a bit lacking in verbal dexterity.

      Thank you, m’dear, point noted 🙂

      But unwarranted rattling of cages can be a bit reckless – especially when said cage is occupied by a Leither with a quite short fuse and a strong aversion to people trying to control debate to suit their own prejudices.

    89. muttley79 says:

      @S_S

      I don’t think anyone is suggesting that any voters will change their minds over reading posts on here. The point was that it plays completely into the hands of the agenda of the No campaign/MSM.

    90. Paula Rose says:

      I do think calling someone a duckling or toaster is a bit silly, it doesn’t do anything for the debate.

    91. muttley79 says:

      @Dick Gaughlan

      I don’t really care if you are a Leither with a short fuse. The hard man act is pathetic.

    92. Paula Rose says:

      Boys, put those handbags down!

    93. Dick Gaughan says:

      muttley79 says:
      @Dick Gaughlan
      I don’t really care if you are a Leither with a short fuse. The hard man act is pathetic.

      I’m afraid I am quite unable to match such incisive and devastating wit as that, so I’ll bow out now.

      IAFWAFIAWPWWA

      An old Usenet acronym. Check it out.

    94. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      TD at 2.15

      And you think our enemy wouldn’t just invent them?

    95. muttley79 says:

      @Dick Gaughlan

      I will pass on looking it up thanks. Given your responses I have a fair idea what it will be.

    96. Schrodinger's Cat says:

      @heedtracker
      lol, we’ve got lumps of it round the back
      🙂

    97. scottish_skier says:

      Boys, put those handbags down!

      LOL. Another run of excellent polls for Yes and the handbags are out? I’d hate to imagine what a run of bad polls would do 😉

      Muttley – people base their views on the Yes side largely based on the people they know that support Yes, not from comments on the internet.

      That’s why cybernatgate is doomed to failure / is more likely to generate Yes votes than No votes. Everyone knows Yes people. They are partners, children, mates, colleagues. If the unionist press tells an undecided/soft No that Yes people are horrible and nasty yet the UN/SN knows that’s not the case from personal experience, then they’ll tend to shift to Yes. Nobody likes being lied to and having their friends attacked.

      Demonisation only has a chance of working if most people don’t know anyone from the group being demonised, i.e. it’s a small minority group. Otherwise, the opposite normally is the outcome.

      I totally agree people should keep it civil, but the occasional angry comment is of no real significance. If anything, there’s a fair chance it may be put there just to get people arguing amongst themselves. It’s hardly as if this site is restricted to Yes people only.

      I imagine readers are clever enough to make up there own minds about the motives of posters should they trawl through all the comments.

      I, unlike many unionists, don’t think the electorate are stupid. They keep proving me correct in this respect.

      As for people’s opinion on the Yes campaign vs the No, then look at this:

      http://image.slidesharecdn.com/publicspom19campaignscharts090614-140609085000-phpapp02/95/slide-2-638.jpg

      From BT’s favourite pollster too. Holy shit.

      All is not what it seems in Y/N polls. Rather, the above gives a better indication of what is really going on.

      You see that’s the other effect of demonisation; it creates a shy vote…

    98. Schrodinger's Cat says:

      @Kestral
      thanks for the thumbs up
      i have been out canvasing all last week and do spend time trying to convince a small number of people

      im just concerned about the wave of crap about to be visited on this site

      bt are already dredging through past articles trying to dredge up smears to hit wings with

      the btl comments in national newspapers allow me the ability to correct and critisise the journalist and post links to sites such as wings where a truer version of reality is discussed
      without sites such as wings………the yes campaign would already be dead in the water.
      keep the faith my friends, we are winning and are almost there

    99. muttley79 says:

      @S_S

      Fair points.

    100. manandboy says:

      On Landward on BBC 2 today, still on,
      Dougie Vipond spoke of Scotland’s major exports
      as whisky, salmon & farming produce.

      So according to the BBC, the UK Gov’s propaganda mouthpiece,
      those are the only natural produce of value in Scotland.

      Get it?

    101. manandboy says:

      Advice

      Never underestimate the canny Scot.

      Yes is waiting.

    102. Paula Rose says:

      Whiskey, salmon and farming produce are sustainable and will not be running out by Tuesday.

    103. Cactus says:

      Good evening Scotland, this is your six o’clock news:

      Dunno if this has been mentioned, but, regarding the authoress Ms JK Rowling allegedly donating the figure of £1,000,000 to the no campaign.. is there actual proof that she did, rather than just say she did and the money magically appears from somewhere else?

      Here’s Sean with the weather.

    104. gerry parker says:

      @Paula Rose.

      The ducklings and toasters I can put up with.

      It’s the spatula’s I can’t stand.

      Where’s that recipe for Waldrof salad?

      I believe the first ones have just been harvested.

      🙂

    105. Paula Rose says:

      (can one of you remind me how to do those winky things, and sorrey about that ‘e’ in the whisky)

    106. orri says:

      UKIP really didn’t suffer too badly from being over exposed. Even though the negative press they got was proven to be accurate by the actions of some of their candidates. The essential difference here is that for the main part people coming here will find mostly passionate people who genuinely want the best for their country amongst a few who are a bit nuts.

      Say what you like about Sillars, his statement about not taking anything said by someone who doesn’t use their own name at face value is bang on. They don’t need to be false flags nor MI5 but I’ve seen reports that China employs people specifically to post on these kind of fora.

      I fully expect though that if allowed to get away with it the next thing that might happen is we’ll have a twisting of any law suit for defamation against the press being touted as them being held to account and advocating some form of licensing for online blogs and discussion groups in order that they may more easily be taken to task.

    107. scottish_skier says:

      @Paula

      ; – )

      with no spaces.

    108. Paula Rose says:

      @ scottish_skier thanks dear.

    109. scottish_skier says:

      and sorrey about that ‘e’ in the whisky

      Hmmpf.. In Scotland, we spell sorry with no e…

      😉

    110. Tam Jardine says:

      Dick Gaughan

      There are way too many people whose sole contribution here seems to be to pop up every so often with demands that others post in a certain way – “stop swearing”, “don’t make personal insults” etc etc.

      Not sure who you were addressing but to avoid any doubt, I am all in favour of going in hard where it is legitimate – Robert Peffer way further up the thread reminded us of J K Rowling Death Eater slur which I categorise with Alistair Darling’s agreement that all SNP members and voters are at heart blood and soil nationalists. This is shameful, a thousand times worse than Campbell Gunn’s error, and needs challenged.

      (AD’s outburst was stupidity but J K Rowlings statement has been mulled over. I wonder if the donation and statement were held off until the timing was optimal?)

      As for telling people to stop swearing/post a certain way – I have no problem with colourful language and employ it myself in the odd comment that I pop up every so often to make. If I think someone has posted something that can be used against the site or Yes I will ask them not to.

      Anyway, take care. We’re all on the same team.

    111. BuckieBraes says:

      @manandboy

      ‘Dougie Vipond spoke of Scotland’s major exports as whisky, salmon & farming produce.

      ‘So according to the BBC, the UK Gov’s propaganda mouthpiece, those are the only natural produce of value in Scotland.’

      Ach, even that sounds pretty good to me. In the words of one Stuart Campbell, just wait till we really get started!

    112. Rock says:

      muttley79,

      “The point was that it plays completely into the hands of the agenda of the No campaign/MSM.”

      Anything and everything we say plays completely into the hands of the agenda of the No campaign/MSM because they spin it that way.

      See what happened when Stuart pointed out that Claire Lally was not an “ordinary person.” It played completely into their hands didn’t it? Does that mean Stuart should not have written that article?

      Our opponents can and do say the worst possible things but why does that not play completely into our hands?

      The OFFICIAL LEADER of the No campaign publicly accused us of being ‘Blood and Soil’ nationalists.

      A few online posters calling the likes of Brian Wilson, John Reid and Ian Davidson ‘("Quizmaster" - Ed)s’ and ‘("Tractor" - Ed)s’ is quite mild in comparison.

      We are being provoked well beyond our breaking points yet have mostly managed to stay calm and reasonable.

      Apart from condemning anyone making physically violent comments, as Stuart rightly does, there is no point in criticising each other for the words used.

      Stuart’s articles and the comments on them are the best example of free speech in Scotland. Let us keep it that way.

      (Don’t take this badly!)

    113. Al Stuart says:

      The really big issue here is the battle for the 5th Estate (the internet).
      BT already have the support of the British Ruling Classes and the Establishment who comprise the first four Estates of The Lords Spiritual, the Lords Temporal the Commons and the Press but they know that we have the Internet, or specifically the social media.
      The Main Stream Media are in cahoots with them as they fear the new medium as much as the message.

    114. Taranaich says:

      @Rock: Our opponents can and do say the worst possible things but why does that not play completely into our hands?

      The OFFICIAL LEADER of the No campaign publicly accused us of being ‘Blood and Soil’ nationalists.

      A few online posters calling the likes of Brian Wilson, John Reid and Ian Davidson ‘("Quizmaster" - Ed)s’ and ‘("Tractor" - Ed)s’ is quite mild in comparison.

      We are being provoked well beyond our breaking points yet have mostly managed to stay calm and reasonable.

      Apart from condemning anyone making physically violent comments, as Stuart rightly does, there is no point in criticising each other for the words used.

      Absolutely. There is a vast, vast difference between anonymous or even known twitter trolls using abusive, defamatory language, and politicians, journalists, commentators and public figures using abusive, defamatory language.

      Some random chap calling Nigel Farage a twerp is very, very different from the leader of the No campaign agreeing with the accusation that the SNP – and by proxy its supporters – are “blood and soil nationalists.” Some ordinary member of the public saying mean things about Jackie Baillie on Facebook is very different from the leader of the Labour Party in Scotland describing nationalism – in specific regards to Scottish nationalism – as “a virus that has affected so many nations and done so much harm.”

      And yet, the media only focuses on one type of abuse. Is abuse worse when it comes from some random nobody you’ll never meet, or a person who commands great power and influence? Who do you think would do the most harm, some internet troll, or a politician? Who would cause the most public outcry, an idiot on Facebook, or a journalist?

      I have no time for this “all Yes supporters should condemn vile comments from their fellows” – the mere implication that failing to outright condemn them is tantamount to support (or at least lack of concern) says a lot about what they think of us. The fact that they resolutely fail to practise what they preach in regards to their official representatives, never mind unknown websters, should tell you something.

      Davidson, Reid, Wilson, Darling et al should be dragged across the coals for their despicable statements.

    115. Ken500 says:

      The point about Sillars is that he, like the MSM, tries to blame any malicious cyber posts on the SNP without any proof. It is just as likely the relatively low number of malicious posts could come from anyone, so why keep in blaming Alex & Co,and the SNP. This is acting as fifth columnists for the Anti Independence groups because of personal prejudice. Some people do take kindly to beig lectured by Mr Sillars, whatever the MSM says without any proof.

      SNP members are just as convicted and responsible as anyone else. Being an SNP member does not equate to being a Natz or a weirdo, but to someone who wants a better run country. Who is prepared, perhaps more than other people, to put their money and their energies to campaigning for a better society. Not sitting on their hands, accepting the crap and doing nothing.

      Bit like Alex & Co, not just accepting the lies but trying to find the way to the truth and build a better society, protecting the vulnerable. What’s wrong with that? Alex Salmond would have been one of the first people in Scotland knowing of Thatcher’s deceit about the Oil figures etc, as an Oil economist for RBS.

    116. Ken500 says:

      @ 12.27 am (That the time? Rankin to sleep)

      # Some people do not take kindly to being lectured by Mr Sillars.

      # ‘sorted it all out, and it still came out wrong’. Twisted pre dict text. Damn.

    117. yabadabadoo says:

      “Argentine Congressmen Tell U.S. Counterparts: Sovereignty Comes Before Speculators ”

      This is what the YES vote is all about: people before the bankers.

      I hope the SNP take note.

      http://www.larouchepac.com/node/31053#.U54tGd81lkQ.twitter

    118. Max Solanis says:

      my comment got cut. 🙁



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