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Wings Over Scotland


Are we there yet?

Posted on December 11, 2013 by

Now and again, the independence debate gets so dismally stupid that we despair for a few hours and just sit around with our head in our hands trying to understand how professional, apparently-rational people can be so hopelessly, galactically thick.

Today the trigger was The Times, which issued the latest in a flurry of “post-White Paper” polls that have appeared with indecent haste and proclaimed the document’s failure, this time under the ridiculous headline “Poll sinks hope for a ‘yes’ vote”.

pollsinks

Do we even need to write the next bit? Does it really have to be spelled out?

The White Paper came out two weeks ago. It’s 670 pages and 170,000 words long. A great many of the tens of thousands of people who asked the Scottish Government to send them a copy haven’t received it yet, and many more only received theirs yesterday. Those who’ve had one, or who downloaded the electronic versions, have had wall-to-wall media coverage of the Clutha tragedy and the death of Nelson Mandela competing for their attention in the intervening time.

So conducting a poll and expecting to find that the document had significantly altered Scottish opinion is a bit like putting £1 into an Oxfam collecting tin and immediately asking if Third World poverty’s now been eradicated.

Based on the Scottish Government’s traffic figures, at least 80% of Scots haven’t even glimpsed the White Paper, far less read and digested it. Strike out those waiting for their copies and those who just haven’t had the time yet and that figure’s likely in the region of 95%. Of the remaining 5%, a large percentage are likely to be people who were already going to vote Yes and just wanted a copy for posterity.

And there’s been almost nothing in the way of intelligent analysis of the paper in the Scottish press, partly because pages have been crammed with Clutha and Mandela, and partly because, well, it’s the Scottish press. What little coverage has managed to squeeze its way onto pages has largely been terrifyingly idiotic.

So the proportion of the population that might even conceivably have had its mind changed over the course of those few short days is probably around 2%, at best. And in that context, having 40% or so of respondents to any given poll saying that it had affected their view is something approaching a miracle on a Biblical scale.

We shouldn’t need to say any of this. We shouldn’t have to explain to experienced professional journalists and psephologists who’ve apparently taken leave of their senses that OF COURSE millions of people didn’t read a 170,000-word document within days of its release and come to considered, informed opinions on it. We feel bad enough about insulting our readers’ intelligence by writing it here now.

After Clutha and Mandela it’s Christmas and New Year. Some time after that, when we’re actually in the year of the referendum, normal people might start taking a serious interest in a hefty, dry political tome. Anyone conducting a poll any sooner than three MONTHS after the release of the White Paper and expecting it to show a significant effect is an imbecile, and they’re giving us a headache.

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163 to “Are we there yet?”

  1. Jiggsbro
    Ignored
    says:

    If they measured anything meaningful, it was the overwhelmingly negative media response to the White Paper.

  2. The Tree of Liberty
    Ignored
    says:

    “OF COURSE millions of people don’t read a 170,000-page document”  Rev, that’s a big document!

  3. Rev. Stuart Campbell
    Ignored
    says:

    I HAVEN’T THE SLIGHTEST NOTION TO WHAT YOU ARE REFERRING.

  4. cadgers
    Ignored
    says:

    Yon’s a stomper of a headache you must have!

  5. Bertie K
    Ignored
    says:

    Similar headline in the Press & Journal this morning as well as a number of other “negative” articles related to Scottish Independence.

    Truly shameful state of affairs in a so-called democratic country.

    I will not be buying the aforementioned paper ever again.

  6. The Tree of Liberty
    Ignored
    says:

    Your welcome. Hee, hee.

  7. Mary Bruce
    Ignored
    says:

    I wonder what the polls will say following Osborne’s budget speech last week when they start coming in…  He, Cameron and Boris are doing our work for us.
     
    The media have made an absolute disgrace of themselves with their extravagant claims and fearmongering. They don’t seem to realise that they are destroying themselves in the process. I know of no voters who are starting to question it. There was even a no voter on Silenced by Better together on facebook complaining about being banned from BT because she asked why there was no support group in her area. They are idiots.
    I wonder if Salmond and co realised it would be as bad as this when they set out on this journey. It’s a lot worse than I imagined it would be.

  8. drygrangebull
    Ignored
    says:

    I know it is o/t and I am sorry.. But with the food price scare,  I stumbled on this site and I had no idea Wal-mart was gonna  take over the world !! I loved the Scottish govt logo on the right hand side just hiding..lol ! But mainly about japan and how we are FUKUED.
    http://thetruthwins.com/archives/wal-mart-vs-the-morons

  9. Frankie goes to Holyrood
    Ignored
    says:

    …perhaps opinion polls could include a few key questions to check the extent of familiarity with the white paper?  That might be quite revealing…. 
     
    ..especially if we asked some members of the mainstream media the same questions 🙂

  10. scottish_skier
    Ignored
    says:

    If people are wanting a game changer (any white paper effect would take at least a month to start changing things and would only do so gently over the months that follow), I suspect it will come around Dec 20th.
     
    People seem to have forgotten about it.
     
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-24238070
     
    If I was Darling, I’d be nervous about what will be concretely clarified in terms of what happens in the event of a Yes or No. Funny that the knives come out just around the time of the white paper and only a few weeks before this event.

  11. Murray McCallum
    Ignored
    says:

    The Times article: “To make matters worse for Mr. Salmond and the ‘Yes’ Campaign, the YouGov poll shows that Scots are deeply unconvinced of the economic case for Scotland leaving the UK”.
     
    I added the emphasis as I expected to get beaten to a pulp with overwhelming statistics. The Times actually go on to quote the stats that demonstrate that a minority of respondents (48%) think an independent Scotland would be worse off.
     
    Just shows how stats can be put either way to prove a point. Given the barrage of negativity from the MSM better together campaign, it’s quite amazing that 36% of respondents thought Scotland would be no worse or actually better off.

  12. Doug Daniel
    Ignored
    says:

    That Times article says Lindsey McIntosh wrote it, but it reads more like a John McIntyre OBE rant. Alex Salmond, Alex Salmond, Alex Salmond… Anyone reading that article to get an idea of what Scottish politics is like would be forgiven for thinking Alex Salmond performs all the duties of government by himself.
     
    Is she OBE in disguise? Iiiiiiiiiiiiiis she OBE in dis-guise?

  13. scottish_skier
    Ignored
    says:

    Oh, and as for Yougov – historically the biggest outlier of all polls… They’ve been trying to fix their methodology to fix this as folk were starting to giggle at them. Not quite fixed yet; still has problems (newspaper readership weighting).

    Anyway, No -8% and Yes +6% since the all poll peak late last year is not really good for No now is it?

  14. scottish_skier
    Ignored
    says:

    So how come up to 7 in 10 Scots support devo max / full fiscal autonomy, yet a good ~45% have economic worries?
     
    It’s the UK government threatening to cause problems (EU, £ etc) that’s making people worry. Dec 20th may well sort that out though.

  15. G H Graham
    Ignored
    says:

    Actually Rev, you’re wrong.
     
    When Jackie Baillie announced that she was leaving Holyrood at lunchtime for a snack, a member of the public in the gallery texted Greggs planning & logistics department in Newcastle to make sure they had enough pies en route to Scotland.
     
    So you see, cause & effect can be immediate.

  16. Blair
    Ignored
    says:

    It’s not that big a document; I mean Alistair Darling read it in a couple of hours…

  17. Early Ball
    Ignored
    says:

    Bertie K, if you are stopping the P&J make sure you tell them why. Yesterday’s editorial was about the supermarket scare story. This was long after the story fell apart but they just don’t care. No retraction today.

  18. HandandShrimp
    Ignored
    says:

    Meh! The newspapers are against Scottish independence. Even the Guardian has Severin acting as their official Better Together spokespeep.
     
    See if we swing this Yes vote next year, standby for a shit storm from these same papers as they demand to know what Westminster is going to do about it.

  19. alba
    Ignored
    says:

    Well maybe if the powers-that-be had allocated more copies per library more folk could have read this paper.
    For example; Kirkcaldy Central Libraary – 4 copies available to borrow, one copy in the Reference section. That this library serves some 50,000 folk does mean there is now one bloody long waiting list. 

  20. sneddon
    Ignored
    says:

    I’d prefer a graphic book version..with Batwoman…oh! hold on, wrong book 🙂

  21. msean
    Ignored
    says:

    Re the weather,I see Eastern Scotland appears now and then to be ‘the north east quadrant’,so i take it that this will gradually be how it is described.Slowly, so that we don’t notice.

  22. JasonF
    Ignored
    says:

    Hopefully a lot of people will see stories like this one and realise what nonsense the media produces.
     
    Perhaps as the implausible stories cover more and more sectors (research, supermarkets, etc.) people who work in or know a bit about those specific areas will realised just how stupid newspaper reporting of the referendum is.

  23. Big Drone
    Ignored
    says:

    Blair, was it not 10 minutes….!

  24. Gfaetheblock
    Ignored
    says:

    Most people will not read the white paper.  I will, I am still waiting for it to arrive (a bit of a momentum killer the wait), but I am a politics geek. The majority of the voters will base their opinion of it on the press and social media reaction and that has happened.  The news media being dominated by bigger stories is unfortunate for Yes, but it does feel more damp squib than game changer.

  25. msean
    Ignored
    says:

    According to this poll,support UP to 33%.So,we’re all now agreed,then(although the exact figures may differ in real life) that support for Independence is rising?

  26. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    Came across this great quote from James Hogg, and it keeps reminding me of Darling:
     
    ‘When a man is astonished at what he knows, it may be a proof that he has stood (merely) on the brink of science; but it is also a proof that he has not discovered it to be boundless and unfathomable. The ignorance of such a person makes him loquacious and opinionative, because he has never known what it was to be beyond his depth.’ (1834)

  27. Bear1630
    Ignored
    says:

    I have read about a third of the “white paper” so far and what it tells me is that Scotland cannot afford to remain under the jurisdiction of a Westminster government.. Scotland’s future can only be assured as an independant country.Let’s put it this way….I’ll make you a deal give me £1 and next week I’ll give you back 86p sound fair? No? Well successive Westminster governments have been giving Scotland that same deal for years….Think on ..

  28. westie7
    Ignored
    says:

    Guys, RE: the P&J
     
    It is the biggest pile of returns when I pop into my local Co-op after 9pm every night.
    Alarmingly the paper always sold out is the Scottish Daily Mail !!

  29. scottish_skier
    Ignored
    says:

    Most people will not read the white paper.
     
    Correct. With ~30% solid No (status quo), the same Yes and 10% who never have a political opinion/would never vote anyway, the majority will not read it.
     
    What is interesting however, is that the remaining minority 30% are as likely to vote as the core of each side. It is them who are most likely to browse the white paper and search for the equivalent ‘Scotland’s future in the union’.
     
    I’ve already been asked by a few people if a pro-union white paper exists (when I sent them links to the indy white paper). I pointed them to the Westminster all party tax group paper which shows the removal of the barnett formula / no more devolution if people vote solid No and something like devo max if things are 50/50 or so.

  30. a supporter
    Ignored
    says:

    Mary Bruce
    I wonder if Salmond and co realised it would be as bad as this when they set out on this journey. It’s a lot worse than I imagined it would be.

    I am pretty sure the SNP knew just how bad the media would be. It has been there, done that, and written the book. But worry not. There is plenty of evidence to suggest Scots are well aware of the views of the local press and take very little notice of it. I mean, after re-hashing the same story twice the eyes involuntarily glaze over. Soon they’ll be attacking the NO campaign more and more vigorously as they run out of anti-Indy stories to publish.

    The English newspapers who comment are irrelevant because they don’t have the circulation in Scotland to be effective, and boy are they frustrated about that. They write just to try to convince themselves they are still important UK newspapers.

    Meanwhile the SNP and YES campaign can sit back and watch these idiots tying themselves up in knots trying to spin non-stories day after day like the Times in Stu’s piece above. But when we actually enter the 16 week pre-vote campaigning period just watch the YES campaign then.

  31. Andy-B
    Ignored
    says:

    Can’t remember the guys name, off hand but during Politics Scotland today, either the editor or sub-editior of the Times, was asked to comment on yesterdays Q&A, with the SG, he (The Times guy) wasn’t very enthusiastic, and at times, put the Q&A answers down as propaganda by the SNP.
     
    After reading your coverage and article about the Times, I now know why, pity as I thought the SNP, Q&A is a landmark in communications between civic Scotland and its government, with more Q&A’s planned, I find the SNP’s openess refreshing.

  32. HandandShrimp
    Ignored
    says:

    msean
     
    Yes the gap is closing and I think the Don’t Knows will be key when it comes to the vote on the 18th. This is far from a done deal 🙂
     
    Of course if we win on the 18th there will no doubt be wails of protest. The biggest challenge will be getting everyone on board for a better Scotland. Many will have so nailed their colours to a bitter and treacherous message as to find it hard to change gear….others will undoubtedly say “what the hell, I am in” Which do which may surprise us 🙂

  33. Murray McCallum
    Ignored
    says:

    I did question my commitment to Scottish independence when food security experts reminded me that we would have to import our Parma ham from a foreign country.
     
    Given the range of “Scotland is sh1t” stories day after day, I am pleasantly surprised that 52% of the poll didn’t think Scotland would be economically worse off. Long way to go yet.

  34. Bertie K
    Ignored
    says:

    @Early Ball
     
    Retraction? P&J?
    Ho, ho very hume.
    As to their comments/letters page, well “no comment”

  35. Andy-B
    Ignored
    says:

    O/T but interesting here’s a wee link to events that happened in Scottish history on this day, the link includes, other event throughout Scottish history.
     
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/history/onthisday/

  36. TheGreatBaldo
    Ignored
    says:

    Had to laugh at Blair McD’s tweet about £800K* spent on the WP, only getting an average 1.5% boost…..Yep Blair and that’s without anyone having read it !!! Imagine what it will be like when they have !!!
     
    So that’s what I don’t get is all this gloating (when ALL polls show the gap shrinking) from the likes of Blair McD and BT’s assorted media cheerleaders….I mean they do actually realise that polls by their very nature change right ? So how on earth are they going to explain it away, if/when between early in the New Year and the Euro Election results the gap closes even more ???
     
    It’s gonna take some incredible intellectual gymnastics to explain to their viewers/readers, quite why the campaign they wrote off as dead a few month previously is the one with momentum going when the official campaign starts in June.
     
    I’ve said it before but it’s a bit like claiming your side is going to win the title based on a satisfying win at home on the opening day of the season.
     
    I assume Rev, you have archived the ‘obituary notices’ for the YES campaign to cause maximum embarrassment to the ‘Professional Journalists’ next summer ? 😉
     
    I suspect with the Tory poll revival continuing into the New Year and the (rarely seen) Nigel Farage and his motley band of Bongo-Bongo Land retired Colonels and racists winning the Euro Elections next June, just as the official campaign starts may have shall we say a significant impact on the poll numbers….
     
    And have most of our best known hacks eating a lot of hubris pie….
     
    *Made up figure as you’d expect from Blair McD…..£800K was the surplus from Scottish Water that The Scotsman claimed might be spent.  Not the actual figure spent which hasn’t been calculated yet not least because they are still mailing out the requested copies of the White Paper

  37. handclapping
    Ignored
    says:

    @Andy-B
    The SNP’s openness is the worst thing ever to have happened to Scottish journalism. You used to be able to make a name for yourself by noting the time and with who the various Labour head-honchos came out of John Smith House. Have a quiet drink and a brown envelope and you had a scoop on your hands. Now its all in the open and they even invite your competitors, of course the SNP sucks. All that time getting a degree in Kremlinology wasted but at least I didn’t have to pay fees. Oops nearly said something in their favour there.

  38. TheGreatBaldo
    Ignored
    says:

    After reading your coverage and article about the Times, I now know why, pity as I thought the SNP, Q&A is a landmark in communications between civic Scotland and its government, with more Q&A’s planned, I find the SNP’s openess refreshing.
     
    I think that’s the key Andy…The SNP have rarely been given a fair crack of the whip and yet have found ways of getting their message across.
     
    There is a dynamic developing that will come into it’s own in the final stages as folk realise the YES side engages and talks to them face to face….whilst the NO side shouts at them from the TV.

  39. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    When will we see the positive case for the union?
     
    How many times do we have to ask?
     
    We’re not asking for a weighty tome. A lot of us would be happy to see it on one side of A4, even if it was in REALLY BIG LETTERS, with triple-spacing.
     
    As and when they produce the thing, everyone can pile in and do the whole compare and contrast routine, but until then? it would be jolly decent of the usual suspects to just STFU.

  40. Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    “Poll sinks hope of a Yes vote”

    The Yes vote is up by 1 percentage point. The No vote static for the past few months. Hopefully we will keep sinking for a while yet.
    Personally, I seldom meet a No supporter in Clydebank and met a new Yes convert just today.

    Fear not good lady. In the 1950’s people that campaigned for independence were quite abused and some even had dog-shit put through through their letterbox. Some were even arrested in the 1940’s.

    They built concentration camps for the independence movement in Kenya etc and shot Irish people etc. We’ve just a really dumb press to deal with! and still we are gaining.

    Get the leaflets and newspapers and get them through the doors. People power is winning this one.

  41. nick heller
    Ignored
    says:

    My daughter received a signed copy within two days of bumping into the First Minister outside Holyrood. But it’s a little impractical for Alex to meet everyone in the nation without help.  

    The solution is obvious. Instead of sending Santa out on Christmas Eve with ephemeral nonsense like toys to distribute get him to give Alex a lift round with a freshly printed copy for every household….if they’ve been good!
     

  42. X_Sticks
    Ignored
    says:

    Ian Brotherhood says:
     
    “When will we see the positive case for the union?”
     
    Maybe you could ask the Secretary of State for Scotland. I’ve asked him some questions, but no answer to my first one, and the second challenge to answer the same questions has been put into ‘moderation’. Questions too awkward for him, but I’m sure he’ll have a positive case for the union if you ask nicely.
     
    https://scotlandoffice.blog.gov.uk/

  43. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    Thinking back to the ‘Politics and Platitudes’ post:
     
    That whole blackboard set-up with the ‘Before I Die I Want To…’ was started by an American art student as part of her degree show, and it took off.
     
    As a show of empathy with our fellow Scots who cannot countenance the inevitable (i.e. independence), perhaps Yes Scotland could arrange a similar public opportunity for beleaguered unionists to come to terms with reality:
     
    ‘What I’ll Miss Most About Being Part of the United Kingdom is…’ 
     
    I’m sure Jackie Baillie would happily volunteer to provide the initial, inspirational response.

  44. Papadocx
    Ignored
    says:

    Don’t hear the government, papers or media questioning any of the obvious lies that are broadcast loud, wide and far with their assistance. 
     
    However when anybody raises the truth, all the above jump on them from a great height denouncing the truth as lies. (The mad hatters tea party). Up is down and black is white bad is good etc. Such is Great Britain.
     
    As I have said many times WE ARE A THREAT TO THE STATE, AND ANYTHING GOES TO PROTECT THE STATE!  We are expendable, there is money and power at stake here and the peasants are (Thinking about) revolting. We will put them down and teach them a lesson. NO quarter given! 
     
    The same rancid press, media and politicians have forgotten to mention the Establishments published plans to visit punishment upon us all after a NO vote. We are going to get flayed alive, because the toffs need money and were going to supply it. 
     
    Unless we waken up and vote YES. BE AFRAID, BE VERY AFRAID!

  45. Dorothy Devine
    Ignored
    says:

    Rev , the Channel 5 response is on the “Doctors’ notes” article.

  46. X_Sticks
    Ignored
    says:

    Oops meant to tell you what I said…

    X_Sticks — 09/12/2013

    Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    “expectations were high that the Scottish Government’s independence white paper would answer some of the crucial questions facing the nation – pensions, the pound and Europe to name but three.”

    I challenge you once again Mr carmichael.

    All three of these questions are questions that the westminster government COULD answer but choose not to.

    None of these questions CAN be answered by the Scottish government until after the referendum.

    Why won’t your westminster government anwer these questions?

    At least the Scottish government are trying to give us answers. The same cannot be said of westminster, they, and you, seem to prefer to continue to spread Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt rather than provide answers. Are you scared of the answers Mr Carmichael?

     

    X_Sticks — 11/12/2013

    Your comment is awaiting moderation.

    I’d like to know why my comment challenging Mr Carmichael to answer some questions has been removed.

    Questions to awkward for you Mr Carmichael?

  47. Ivan McKee
    Ignored
    says:

    @SS (6:27)
     
    That link is so good I’m going to post it again.
     
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-24238070
     
    Really looking forward to the 20th to see what they come out with – hope we’re not disappointed.
     
    Regarding the polls- there will be ups and there will be downs, but the last week has been extremely heartening. Every poll is just nudging along nicely in the right direction.
    If only 20% of the population are engaged, then a 1 point move this far out is significant.
    If its only in 1 poll then it could be margin or error, but when you see it in all of them then its for real.
     
    One % point at a time we are rolling this thing up the hill.
     
    Once we get to a tipping point (somewhere around 55/45 on the non-panelbase polls I think) then ‘normalisation’ takes hold and the momentum will accelerate.

  48. Chickenhawk 2
    Ignored
    says:

    An aside, from a little bird that flew over a shipyard wall.
    Reports from the wee bird are that BAE Scotstoun have cleared an area of land to build ? dig a new, presumably larger drydock. Mibbe for the Type 45’s we’ll  no be gettin in an indie Jockland. Maybe the area where the sheds they built the plastic minesweepers in were. Yep, that is the only area they have although it dos’nt look large enough.

  49. Tamson
    Ignored
    says:

    Regarding Dec 20th, I’ll bet you any money the Labour Party will be pulling out all the stops to try to bury any government announcements. The last thing they want is people believing independence could actually happen.
     
    They’ll no doubt try something truly extraordinary – something no-one in their right minds would ever expect from a Labour Party spokesperson. Like announcing a policy.

  50. muttley79
    Ignored
    says:

    Why does the MSM in Scotland not just come out and officially say they are against independence? 

  51. scottish_skier
    Ignored
    says:

    @Ivan re joint statement
     
    It was given very little coverage and nobody seems to talk about it. Yet it is likely to be the major turning point in the campaign, even more so than the white paper. Of course they were timed to arrive one after the other.
     
    I’ve said before that negotiations have been going on since the SNP won in 2011. It couldn’t be any other way; if it’s a Yes, then Scotland is defacto independent from day 1. The Edinburgh Agreement effectively confirmed this.
     
    I work in oil and gas and the majors are not remotely worried about the EU, the £ etc in the event of a Yes. Why? Well they are privy to information that we are not. Not as yet anyway.
     

  52. call me dave
    Ignored
    says:

    Fred MacAuley radio Scotland this morning. Caught a bit while getting a lift to the docs. 
    Interviewing the Crankies. Heard her mentioning the referendum (out the blue not even being discussed).  No vote for them as they don’t live here but wanted to get her bit in. Had a look for it here it is. 
    at 23mins 30secs in for about 30 secs.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03jykp7

    I see class sizes rising warning for SG cue to Jola from BBC for FMQ’s.
     

  53. Dave McEwan Hill
    Ignored
    says:

    I don’t believe either the Ipsos Mori Poll (which apparently uses weighting on the 2010 UK election which was a huge Labour “stop the Tories” Scottish vote) or the YOUGOV poll which was so far wrong on the 2011 Scottish election that nobody should pay any attention to it  ever again.
    My feeling is that we already have a majority of the informed and politically aware vote and the demonstrable lies now infecting the media has the effect of strengthening our support in this group. I would say are actually looking at a fairly close run thing if the referendum was held next month as we will whip them on the ground whenever the end game starts.
     
    O/T I see Morag’s book is out

  54. HandandShrimp
    Ignored
    says:

    Why does the MSM in Scotland not just come out and officially say they are against independence? .
     
    Oh I kind of assumed they had. The BBC, Scotsman, Record and Herald certainly feel like they have.

  55. beachthistle
    Ignored
    says:

     
    @TheGreatBaldo
    “I’ve said it before but it’s a bit like claiming your side is going to win the title based on a satisfying win at home on the opening day of the season.”
     
    You putting it like that reminds me of a thought I had the other day while listening to BBC Radio 5 Live – that the way that the Independence referendum is being covered so far by the MSM is very much like they cover a big sports story* – in particular a big football or rugby match coming up (an international or a big European club tie) where it is assumed by the media that the vast majority listening/watching/reading their reports will be supporting/naturally in favour of the ‘home’ side, and everything is viewed and/or spun through that team’s lens and their chances incessantly talked-up.
     
    Unfortunately for the citizens of Scotland, the ‘home side’ for the mainstream media in Scotland in this instance is Westminster/the Union/London city-state elites – and Scotland, ironically, is the challenger, the ‘other’/’away’ team…
     
    *partly because quite a few Scottish ‘political’ hacks started off as sports reporters
     
     
     
     

  56. Les Wilson
    Ignored
    says:

    Well, I downloaded a copy of the White Paper, it is not in my view a document you just sit and read, I use it more as a reference book. So I look at it now and then and to the particular points I am interested in. Other times as things come to mind and I do not know much about them. I then seek it out and read about it.
    Given that, it will undoubtedly take time for most folks to get around it, and a bit more time to understand the message of hope that it contains.
    My belief is that most people will use it this way, the difference should start to emerge over the next month or two and by the time of the referendum, most people who are interested at all, will have acquainted themselves with all they need to know. I hope they will see the message, and that will make the difference.
    Aside, I still am convinced we need an International body to safeguard our democracy, in regards to all the media Unionist propaganda which IS being orchestrated against us by Westminster and their proxies. 

  57. Macart
    Ignored
    says:

    What a useless shower of epically talentless, hypocritical prats comprise the UK media. They really do think we button up the back. The effect of the white paper will take months to filter through and I guarantee that the most popular version will be the summarised one for general consumption followed by bite sized portions delivered on the doorstep and street corners by YES campaigners.
     
    Chalk up a couple more undecided now fully decided by the by. A long discussion over the weekend whilst on me travels has borne some fruit and the very subject was the press handling of the white paper. So appalled were these folks with the politicians force feeding of doom on the WP that before they’d even turned a page themselves they, quite rightly, really didn’t appreciate being told the contents were worthless. They had reasoned that the SG had provided detail as requested (agree with it or not) and indeed that it was specifically aimed at those who had requested the detail. Hell I hardly had to make any kind of effort at all. They seemed quite piqued especially with Mr Darling and his amazing speed reading talent.
     
    Anyroads up, what I’m getting at is that perhaps their hard sell method has a better than even chance of backfiring on them? These were older folks in the central belt and lifelong Labour voters. What really upset them and what clearly they had spotted all by themselves was that they were being told what to think and had felt uncomfortable for some time with the press and BT approach. The guff of the past two weeks was the last straw in their view.

  58. Training Day
    Ignored
    says:

    I suspect not one MSM outlet headlined with ‘Poll sinks hope of an SNP victory’ nine months before May 2011, even though we were told by polls that Labour was well ahead.

    The reason is clear. The MSM would have hated an SNP victory, but could have lived with a minority government. Now, with the stakes as they are in the referendum, their only mission is to batter home the message, Goebbels-like, that Yes cannot win. Repeat, repeat, repeat to try and condition the unengaged. No substance, no analysis, just an insane mantra to drool between now and 18 September.

    Honest to God, I don’t know why anyone who can think for themselves far less any supporter of self-determination buys any newspaper. They are, en bloc, irretrievable, and so are the people who work for them.

  59. Ken500
    Ignored
    says:

    Times readership in Scotland 18,000 and falling. A sign of the times.

  60. BuckieBraes
    Ignored
    says:

    With regard to all these flaming opinion polls, I may be wrong but I don’t think they are going to budge between now and (almost) the eve of the referendum.
     
    It’s slightly dispiriting, but doesn’t bother me all that much. Something very interesting is going to happen on the day.

  61. Archie [not Erchie]
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Jim 8:15pm – Funny you should mention Kenya. I am in the fortunate position to be involved in my 2nd Independence campaign. As a teenager at school in Nairobi I was privy to the Independence Day celebrations on December 13th 1963 and yes in 2 days time it will be Kenya’s Golden Anniversary [50 Years]
     
    The days and weeks prior to the Uhuru [Freedom] celebrations were awesome, you have seen a taste of African emotions this week in South Africa. In Kenya, under the wise leadership of Jomo Kenyatta the multi-ethnic population melded into one seamlessly despite Londons scares, doom and gloom predictions. 
     
    I saw first hand the vindictive interference by London, the white hunter mentality, the results of imposed apartheid by Lords from Westminster.
     
    I can only describe the day after the 13th December 1963 as something Tolkeinesque, when the darkness disappeared from the land and light returned.

  62. msean
    Ignored
    says:

    I didn’t think it was that high.

  63. Doug Daniel
    Ignored
    says:

    So we’re getting a joint statement on the 20th to tell us how things would carry on after a Yes vote? Well, I’ll certainly be looking forward to the Sunday Politics that weekend, where I’m sure they’ll be covering it extensively.
     
    What’s that you say? Last week’s was the last of the year? Well, isn’t that terribly convenient…

  64. scottish_skier
    Ignored
    says:

    Les Wilson says
     
    ^+1

  65. TheGreatBaldo
    Ignored
    says:

    Well, I’ll certainly be looking forward to the Sunday Politics that weekend, where I’m sure they’ll be covering it extensively.
     
    Last Sunday Politics of the year was last week Doug min….

  66. Brian Powell
    Ignored
    says:

    There was a military tactic to conquer a country where the invader finds if there is an existing conflict.
     
    The invader then supports the weaker group to defeat the stronger. Once that’s done its easy to defeat the remaining weaker opponent with minimum loss.
     
    The Scottish MSN and BBC support the anti-Independence regime of Labour. But unfortunately for them there is a bigger force waiting in Westminster,; the Conservative Party machine and its supporters.
     
    Their support is not just the obvious of the Money and the right wing press, but a whole infrastructure of those who like the comfort of familiar behaviour: lobbyists, consultants, advisors, BBC reporters who stand outside Number 10, as surrogate politicians, talking to each other. It’s all of these who don’t want their assumptions of the order of things changed.
     
    I say the Conservative Party machine, because Labour can never hold Westminster for long and is struggling now to have a clear chance of getting control, despite the mistakes the Tories have made.
     
    Whatever Labour may gain in Scotland, if the vote is No, will be short lived. But they are wiling to sacrifice the future of their voters even for that.
     
    Now I see the former head of the BBC is accused of lying over the Jimmy Savile disaster. Maybe what we see with BBC news and current affairs is learned from watching those above.
     

  67. Papadocx
    Ignored
    says:

    There is NO positive case for the union hence the totally negative efforts of the no campaign they don’t have anything to offer.
     
    They can only smear, sneer, lie, and frighten the population. Remember the disgust and anger aroused when the underhand, illegal disgusting operating methods of the MSM and their employees were disclosed, remember NOW closed and the sales of the rest of them went into free fall. Criminal trials are still ongoing. What did they do to regain our trust? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! 
     
    HMG needs a way of disseminating information (truth or lies) to the cannon fodder, hence no matter how bad they are, they need and use each other. 
     
    The msm @ media make the direction of travel of the debate at the behest of HMG, hence all the time and effort taken up negating this shit storm, puts yes off its stroke.
     
    Again there is NO positive case for the union hence no information available.
     
    Fear is a very natural and common emotion we all have it. The answer to fear is faith. I don’t necessarily mean religion, I mean faith that all will turn out the way it’s meant to and we will be OK. Scotland and it’s people will be OK of that I have NO DOUBT,

  68. theycan'tbeserious
    Ignored
    says:

    There is no easy walk to freedom anywhere, and many of us will have to pass through the valley of the shadow of death again and again before we reach the mountaintop of our desires.
    Nelson Mandela

    Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/n/nelsonmand131681.html#3hLdosci1DsGvvQr.99

    Have faith sisters and brothers!
     
    http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/n/nelson_mandela.html

  69. Paula Rose
    Ignored
    says:

    I find it all rather sad that after 300 years of a political union, the No campaign have nothing positive to say.

  70. TheGreatBaldo
    Ignored
    says:

    Rev
     
    I realised you’ve probably got a lot planned what with the 2nd Annual ‘Wings-ies’…..
     
    But you know in those awards shows they usually have a black and white montage of those who have died in the previous year…?
     
    Any chances of a similar tribute to all those Better Together/MSM scare stories that came and left us in 2013 ?
     
    Surely ‘The Great Indy Supermarket Price’ scare & ‘Roaming charges’ fiasco are worthy of some form of fitting commemoration? 

  71. Erchie
    Ignored
    says:

    I was talking to someone today who says they were going to vote yes, and had the white paper on their iPad.

    But they were lambasting it for not giving details on their hobbyhorse. They hadn’t read it all, but they were not happy
     
    I whipped out my tablet, did a search for the relevant keywords, and found the detail they had not discovered from dipping in and out.
     
    More complaints followed. It sounded like an Indy friendly set of BT misinformation
    Even to those well disposed to Indy, there seems to be a lot of untrue BT propaganda infesting the debate

  72. caz-m
    Ignored
    says:

    Anyone else see Reporting Scotland tonight. It had a piece about the Sarwars on it. Why is our license fee getting wasted on this family.

    It had an interview with his Pakistani national Dad, his tearful Pakistani Mum, who is missing Scotland. And then Anus the son who took over from dad as the Glasgow MP.

    He reminded us that his Dad has contacts in Pakistan that would be good for Scotland and the UK. It was more like a party political broadcast.

    I think this was filmed when he was meant to be voting in Westminster regarding the Bedroom Tax.

    BBC Scotland and Scottish Labour, a match made in London.

    My complaint is on it’s way.

    Link starts 14.08 mins in.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03ktdtj/Reporting_Scotland_11_12_2013/

  73. msean
    Ignored
    says:

    My favourite was the short lived Faslane fiasco.

  74. I’ll give my considered opinion around about June like I said at the start it will take me that long to read it and digest a little of it.Aye for YES.

  75. RICHARD
    Ignored
    says:

    Shop early! Independence is coming.
     
    You cant expect much from MSM. The articles are probably written for the journalist by project fear. It appears to be to consistent to be original. The british govt hasnt given up a colony easily yet. We can expect worse.

  76. msean
    Ignored
    says:

    watching newsnight.iseem to remember over 30 years ago.21 or 22.8 or whatever,sounds better now,esp with classroom assistants now.No arguement here.

  77. The Rough Bounds
    Ignored
    says:

    Question: What does the letter ‘r’ in r.U.K. stand for?
    Answer: Residue.

  78. msean
    Ignored
    says:

    Sorry,didn’t get to edit that last post. Seem to remember  classes of over 30 when i went to school 30 years ago,21 or 22.8 or whatever the average is now still seems better than that.Throw in an assistant or so and it’s even better.No news here.

  79. Doug Daniel
    Ignored
    says:

    TheGreatBaldo – probably should have read the second half of my comment there 😉

  80. HandandShrimp
    Ignored
    says:

    I can understand the Government’s desire to reduce classroom sizes. More one on one teacher time does make a difference. However a 0.6 of a student rise over  3 years is hardly a catastrophe. I was a bit gob smacked when I saw the rise. I expected it to have gone up to 26 or 27 or something equally significant given the column space this is getting. Given the huge budget cuts over the last few years just standing still is an achievement. Didn’t bother watching Newsnight though, I have long since given up on Brewer and Paxman and the like.

  81. caz-m
    Ignored
    says:

    Looks like the questions for FMQs from wee Johann is going to be primary 1/3 class sizes.

    Newsnight Scotland and Gordon Brewer trying to make a scandal out of it and it ran right up a dead-end. What a waste of a serious political debate.

    Nothing positive in it, just trying to dig up shit on SNP aided by the neutral EIS teachers union leader.

    The paperwork is on it’s way to the Scottish Labour Party bunker for overnight rehearsals. With highlighted paragraphs that will be BBC Scotland’s sound bites in tomorrows news bulletins.

  82. Frances
    Ignored
    says:

    re classroom sizes – apart from the huge budget cuts that have taken place since this decision was taken I believe a lot of the unions were against this decision and initially tried to thwart any moves to implement it. I remember their arguments that a class size of 18 (as was initially proposed) was too small! Labour and their henchmen – always striving to keep everyone down. 

  83. msean
    Ignored
    says:

    I hate it when a question is asked but no answers are allowed uninterrupted on newsnight style programmes.

  84. Bill C
    Ignored
    says:

    @caz-m As an ex-member of the EIS for 35 years (active member) I can testify to the fact that there is nothing “neutral” about the EIS. I have lost count of the number of ex-colleagues in the EIS who went on to carve a nice little career for themselves in the Labour Party. It is an organisation which operates like a training academy for Labour hopefuls. Nice to see Brewer meeting his match in Mike Russell though!

  85. HandandShrimp
    Ignored
    says:

    msean
     
    It is why I have given up on TV news. I prefer to read what people have to say and make up my own mind. Brewer and Co kill discussion and illumination. One is left darker and less knowledgeable after hearing an interview than one was before it took place.

  86. Andrew Morton
    Ignored
    says:

    I was in Primary school from 1957 to 1964 and was frequently in classes of more than 40 children. This was in Edinburgh and no classroom assistants.

  87. HandandShrimp
    Ignored
    says:

    My class was the biggest in the school…there were 7 of us..Baby boomers what can you do? Mind you primary 7 plus 1st, 2nd and 3rd year of secondary were all in the same room together.

  88. Hetty
    Ignored
    says:

    Erchie says
     
    “Even to those well disposed to Indy, there seems to be a lot of untrue BT propaganda infesting the debate”. 
    Subliminal messaging?  Just a thought. 

  89. JnrTick
    Ignored
    says:

    They who write the articles such as the one in the Times of course aren’t that daft, they will know fine and well what the script is but their line  very obviously suits their agenda.
    Even a respected paper such as the Times are in on this anti-YES crusade, plant doubt, scare, misinform, push negativity etc.
    You have spelled out why what the Times have published above is imbecilic and in doing so providing many of us visiting this site with more reasoned countering of the crap parroted by those swallowing the stupidity of the MSM arguments.
    Your times is not wasted.

  90. caz-m
    Ignored
    says:

    @Bill C

    Bill I thought you would have picked up on the sarcasm.

    Larry Flanagan EIS union leader is so against independence, he makes Alastair Darling look like a Yes voter.

    He is the one pushing his members to hold Better Together debates in schools.

  91. TJenny
    Ignored
    says:

    Andrew Morton – I too went to an Edinburgh Primary School from 1957 to 1964 and my class size varied from 36 to 42 during that time.
     
    No classroom assistants as such but we did get an external Art teacher who came in once a week, and when decimals were introduced into the curriculum, a lovely Kenyan man who taught us about the decimal point! (He pronounced it deeec – mal point, and was enthusiastic and exuberant, and smiling – we were enthralled at the exoticness of it all, which was saying something as we’d previously been both intrigued by and sniggering at the term ‘vulgar fraction.’
     
    We also had our own swimming pool in the basement – in a Council school – do they still build swimming pools in new schools nowadays? 

  92. Bill C
    Ignored
    says:

    @caz-m No surprise, but from a professional teaching point of view, quite disgusting. I never made a secret of my pro-independence views in the staffroom, but left them there. I can honestly say that I tried at all times to put both sides of the argument in any political discussion I had with my pupils. Then again I believe in democracy. Labour and their political allies have no such principles. We live in interesting but equally frightening times. I really do fear for the future if we lose our chance of self determination.

  93. Marcia
    Ignored
    says:

    A video produced by Newsnet. I think we should all listen to this, especially the canvasser for Yes Scotland.



  94. caz-m
    Ignored
    says:

    Bill, if we get a No vote next year then funding will be cut even further, which will lead to larger class sizes and funding cuts to all schools.

    So all you teachers out there that are thinking of voting No, be careful what you wish for. We are only going to get one shot at this.

  95. Mary Bruce
    Ignored
    says:

    Secondary school in Thornhill, Dumfriesshire had a vote last week with the senior students, 76% no. The day before one of the teachers made the pupils watch the QT debate where they had a totally unbalanced panel including Farage and Galloway…
     
    I don’t understand why are all these teachers are siding with Labour. Don’t they realise that once Barnett is abolished and we get £4b chopped from the block grant it will be their jobs on the line?

  96. Edward
    Ignored
    says:

    So by the amount of coverage given to class room sizes with the so called ‘in depth analysis’ by BBC Scotland last night and Newsnight Scotland doing their ‘thing’ and unsurprisingly, having Larry ‘Labour’ Flannigan of the EIS on . Its has to be a racing certainty that Lamentable Lamont will be spewing forth an attack on the Scottish Government about class sizes, at FMQ’s

  97. Molly
    Ignored
    says:

    Have stopped watching Newsnight but can I ask (as a parent) did Brewer get the chance to ask the EIS spokesperson , has it really taken 10 years to implement Curriculum for Excellence?

  98. Harry Shanks
    Ignored
    says:

    The MSM is a lost cause in general and in the print media they no longer even bother to put up the pretence of impartiality loudly protested by the BBC.
     
    Example – yesterday’s Daily Record carried a story about the First Minister promising a summit on “dangerous dogs”. Now, bearing in mind the DR trumpeted this as a triumph for “the Daily Record campaign” you might expect the story to be somewhat positive towards the FM – but no – instead readers were treated to subliminal propaganda instead of the usual outright stuff.
     
    SEVEN TIMES the FM was disrespectfully referred to simply as “Salmond”. Paul Martin, of course, received a full name check.
     
    I took a quick look back over another story (MPs proposed pay rise) by a different “journalist” – and found the same pattern, “Salmond” this and “Salmond” that. Other politicians received a full name check. In the case of Tricia Marwick, when her first name was not used, “Mrs Marwick” was used.
     
    OK, this is not the overt and downright lying that we see daily – it’s an insidious and subliminal message which many will not even identify for what it is.
     
    In response I posted polite comments along the lines above – naturally they were removed in short order!

    Am I surprised – no, not in the slightest, but it worries me greatly that the YES side seem as yet to have no strategy to combat this. Giving up on the MSM and allowing them to run riot is not an option.

  99. Fergus
    Ignored
    says:

    Archie [not Erchie],

    12th December 1963 actually. Kenya celebrating 50 years of independence today.

    The white settlers wanted to make Kenya another apartheid country but failed.

    No clamour for becoming a ‘British Protectorate’ again.

  100. redcliffe62
    Ignored
    says:

    I have always assumed that between 33 and 35% of voters will turn out and vote YES.

    The issue has always been convincing women of the bottom line advantages to get that closer to 40%.

    That is why Project Fear will question pensions, tax rates and lots of other nasties as we head towards Sep 2014.

    The MSM will never admit that Scotland subsidises England and not other way around as that would mean certain defeat. It needs to be hammered home, even stating BBC staff are afraid to tell even that simple truth as they will be out of a job at Pacific Quay if they do.

    Assuming the figure is 35%, then that means on a 71& turnout NO would win on 36%.

    The aim has to be to continue to soften NO vote so that some stay at home and settle for whatever decision voters make. Many do not care, all the same, which explains a 17.5% by election vote at Shettleston.

    Many YES are more passionate, prepared to march, and support for Union in the 300 year celebrations in 2007 was cancelled due to lack of interest. 

    So how to get less than 35% to turn out and vote NO requires careful analysis. I suggest a handover to Sturgeon with Salmond stating on medical advice has to slow down in April 2014. That way the EU results would skyrocket and that would carry through until September.

    Targetting Salmond directly has been the main MSM approach, targeting a woman in same way would get many women offside.

    Anyway people far cleverer than me are working on this.

  101. Harry Shanks
    Ignored
    says:

    @redcliffe62
     
    Were it not for AS, there would be no SNP Govt, and no referendum.
     
    That’s all.

  102. Ken500
    Ignored
    says:

    Approx – UK raises £600Billion Spends £700Billion (£100borrowed and spent in the rest of the UK)

    Scotland raises and spends £60Billion. £10Billion goes to Westminster:-

    £4Billion loan repayments (Scotland doesn’t borrow or spend)

    £2Billion+ Oil tax revenues a year lost in Scotland because of extra 11% (£2Billion)
    By Osbourne/Alexander in the 2010 Budget. Oil Producers cut investment.
    £10Billion over 5 years

    £1.5Billion Cost of Trident

    £1.5Billion could be saved on Healthcare/social costs by tax on cheap ‘loss leading’ drink

    £1Billion loss of CAP Farming payments intended for Scotland from the EU.

    = £10Billion a year

    Teacher in Scotland are more highly qualified and receive 10% more than the rest of the UK.

    The Referendum is different from other elections. More people will turn out who never vote in GE.
    The Polls are being manipulated by being compared to other election results.

  103. john king
    Ignored
    says:

    Ian Brotherhood says
    “We’re not asking for a weighty tome. A lot of us would be happy to see it on one side of A4, even if it was in REALLY BIG LETTERS, with triple-spacing.”
     
    what, and get binned by the rev?

    ARE YOU SERIOUS? gulp

  104. Ken500
    Ignored
    says:

    Every time the Teachers Union ‘leadership’ tries to get the teachers out on strike, they have refused. A low turnout in the Ballot.

  105. john king
    Ignored
    says:

    caz-m says
    “It had an interview with his Pakistani national Dad, his tearful Pakistani Mum, who is missing Scotland”
     
    I know I felt sorry for her, come hame hen we’ll look after ye,
    send the idiot son oot tae look efter es da 

  106. Training Day
    Ignored
    says:

    Education has been Labour’s unchallenged fiefdom for decades – and still is. Mike Russell has had the chance to address the brown envelope culture, the robbing of the public purse to fund nest egg pensions for loyal Labour apparatchiks, and the deliberate lack of teaching about Scottish culture and history at anything other than the most twee level.

    He’s done nothing on the first two points, and Labour-lackey run Education Scotland have succeeded in bogging down attempts to raise the standard regarding the last point.

    Labour local authorities also have free rein to run skewed ballots in schools, and deny the Yes campaign access to schools.

    Go figure.

  107. Linda's Back
    Ignored
    says:

    Ian Davidson on GMS complaining about “knee jerk” reaction to MPs 11% pay increase.
    Of course BBC won’t ask:   If Scotland was to vote for independence we would save £40 million a year as the annual cost of running Westminster / House of Lords is £480 million.

  108. Geoff Huijer
    Ignored
    says:

    I’d love to be involved in one of these YouGov polls.
     
    I get one or two a week from them (the last one being
    about how I rate the current 3 ‘main’ party leaders & how
    I would vote in the next GE)
     
    Perhaps saying I voted SNP the last time negates me
    from any polls from YouGov on the Scottish Independence
    Referendum?  🙁

  109. scottish_skier
    Ignored
    says:

    RE Yougov.
     
    In their UK-wide polls, they currently have the SNP on 36%, sometimes 48% (based on share of the national total); slightly lower than the other pollsters. This is after considerably down-weighting of SNP respondents; currently about 0.7x / 30%. Still the SNP share continues to rise and Labour share falls (after the SNP fell back in 2012 and Labour recovered a little).
     
    In terms of Holyrood, there is some evidence that SNP share is dropping. However, it’s not going to Labour, the Libs or the Tories who remain largely static or falling, but to the Greens, SSP, Margo etc. Early doors on this one; interesting if it is the case.

  110. Vronsky
    Ignored
    says:

    I doubt if the SNP designed the WP as a tool to convert people to Yes. I think it is a comprehensive attempt to spike the “but you haven’t told us anything about xxx” type of attack from the Unionists. Looked at in that light I think it covers all the bases. The real campaign to build support for Yes will look a lot differentfrom the WP.

  111. CameronB
    Ignored
    says:

    Where is the No Campaign’s vision for Scotland?

    http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/where-is-the-no-campaigns-vision-for-scotland/

    I was going to leave the comment that you will hear the tumbleweed long before you will hear the positive case for the Union, because unicorn hooves make no noise.

    I wasn’t sure if that is the caliber of comment BfS are looking for though, so thought it safer to express myself hear. Hope nobody minds. 🙂

  112. CameronB
    Ignored
    says:

    Here here 🙂

  113. Robert Kerr
    Ignored
    says:

    Yes, Unicorn hooves indeed. The symbolism is important. 
     
    We won’t let them geld the unicorn!

  114. Brian Mark
    Ignored
    says:

    Showing my age now but remember sitting in a class of 40 plus pupils in primary 1 and 2 when I started primary in a galaxy far far away under a Labour dominated council in the 1960’s. Real progressive education not!!!!!!!!!

  115. Colin Dunn
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Gfaetheblock:
    “Most people will not read the white paper.”
     
    True. It’s far too big and dry for most people to wade through.
     
    However, good news there is a 1.1mb PDF summary available for download, and this could be a very handy document to print out and pass along to undecideds.
     
    I’d hoped that when the White Paper came out that there would be a 30-40 pocket-book version for busy people. But of course if that had been released at the same time the MSM would have ignored the full document and attacked the summary. Instead, they had to scramble embarrassingly to pretend they’d read the big one in a single hour.
     
    http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2013/11/8021/0

  116. HandandShrimp
    Ignored
    says:

    caz-m
     
    The issue with EIS and Labour in Scotland is one of political hegemony. Labour through the 70s, 80s and 90s (and the Thatcher onslaught on those things held dear in Scotland) were on the side of the angels. It was received wisdom in the universities and colleges that Labour were the vehicle to challenge that onslaught. Labour became the unassailable political orthodoxy in Scotland and supporters and activists pretty much became entrenched throughout all walks of life. So much so that the SNP winning in 2007 was like a religious heresy. The palpable shock of the majority won in 2011 made this even more stark. The hegemony was crumbling and those still part of this informal network of political orthodoxy went through shock, fear and anger. This includes the BBC, the EIS and various other bodies. They have to fight because if they do not then, in their view all they strived against from their student years in 70s and 80s onwards will turn to dust.
     
    I personally think this is a massive over-reaction and that the political orthodoxy of the SNP/Greens/SSP is damned near identical to that of Labour in the 70s and 80s and that Labour activists of 40 years ago would not believe the things done in their party’s name in the 21st century. However, Labour has moved on and those in positions of power and privilege are more concerned about that power and privilege than the fire in their belly when they raged against Thatcher’s very destruction of the strands that held us together as a society. It isn’t just independence the EIS is fighting against they are desperately trying to stem the haemmorhage from Labour to the SNP generally and are using the independence issue to wedge politics into the schools generally. 
     
    I have said this before but we need through bodies like Radical Independence and the many writers, musicians, artists, comedians and actors that support independence to reach out to the young directly and bypass the stuffy corridors of Modern Studies in schools. These people are the true communicators of our children’s generation and we need them to show the young how political hegemony works and how ideas and opinion can be manipulated by mis-representation and leading questions and arguments.    

  117. TheGreatBaldo
    Ignored
    says:

    Ian Davidson on GMS complaining about “knee jerk” reaction to MPs 11% pay increase.
     
    Far be it for me to defend Ra Chairchoob….but it was SLAB’s Brian ‘Scottish Executive’ Donohoe I heard after 8 o’clock trying to defend it along the lines of ‘the overall package being value for money for taxpayers’….
     
    and then even more ironically, then having a go at folk for having ‘not read the details’ 🙂

  118. caz-m
    Ignored
    says:

    You go to bed with the news that BBC Scotland are predicting the end of primary school education as we know it.

    You wake up to the news, again from BBC Scotland, that NHS Scotland is about to collapse under the pressure of meeting it’s hospital waiting times.

    A bit of a pattern developing. They are trying to end the year by booting the shit out of the Scottish Government and the YES Campaign to negate the rise in the Yes vote and the fall of the No vote.

    O/T Gordon Brewer has got to have told the biggest lie that has ever been told on television. Last night on Newsnight Scotland he called himself a “journalist”.

    I’ll tell the jokes Gordon.

  119. Ken500
    Ignored
    says:

    Until recently Scottish History/Literature could only be studied at University. People in Scotland aren’t taught their own history. A history to be proud. Introducing a Scottish element would help the teachers to engage the pupils and hold their interest. Shakespeare etc could be further taught at University where there is an element of choice in topics.

    There has to be teachers recruited with the necessary knowledge/qualifications, teachers have a heavy work load so the changes will be introduced graduduallly.

  120. CameronB
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Robert Ker
    Don’t you mean ‘gild’ the unicorn?
     
    To me, the unicorn symbolises the mythical power of a ‘caring and compassionate’ British state. I think that is why there is a unicorn in the Crown’s coat of arms. To represent God’s kingdom on earth.
     
    Perhaps not. 🙂

  121. HandandShrimp
    Ignored
    says:

    I wish the BBC would more stories about how corrupt, useless and poor value for money the BBC are. When any controversy hits them they close ranks and pretend nothing happened. If they opened their own closet the tumbling skeletons would keep them in headlines for months.  

  122. Edward
    Ignored
    says:

    I see the ‘experiment’ of having Jim Naughtie on GMS for Thursdays and Fridays each week, seems to have the novelty factor worn out as he has done a ‘Kaye Adams’ and was not on this morning
    So one of the 2 ladies given the task of holding the fort had to tackle Brian Donohoe , who was being interviewed to justify why MP’s are getting a 11% pay rise. Frankly he was pathetic and very cringing as he swatted away the questions with excuse after excuse, such as ‘it wasn’t up to him to justify the increase, they should be asking the PSA’

  123. desimond
    Ignored
    says:

    john king, caz-m

    Mrs Sarwar….I was in airport the night before Sarwars debate with Nicola and I had the pleasure of hearing him joke to his friends on how his dad was “having to put up with only a 65 acre estate” and that his mum was fine, she was just gonna fly back and forth…such a tough gig…she is in economy isnt she….isnt she?

    The best bit of eavesdropping that night was his slabbering friend telling him to “go for her” talking about the Nicola debate after he had said Moore had been too soft on Sturgeon. Every time he and his friends referenced the opponents surnames…class acts.

  124. Robert Kerr
    Ignored
    says:

    Cameron B.
    I actually used the phrase “geld the unicorn”
     
    The unicorn on the Royal coat of arms of the United Kingdom represents Scotland. One of the two kingdoms united.
     
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_coat_of_arms_of_the_United_Kingdom

  125. HandandShrimp
    Ignored
    says:

    desimond
     
    Nicola has done well, she won all three of her debates even if the the panel deemed Anas’s waving around fake papers and pens enough to earn him a draw…a very generous gift that he gave away when he failed to turn up for his own motion’s hearing in Parliament. I think poor Anas’s stock is somewhere around -25% at the moment.  

  126. David Martin
    Ignored
    says:

    What concerns me greatly, it that the general feeling on this site that there would be more obvious support for YES by Summer 2013, then September 2013, then the release of the WP/End of the year, now 3 months after the release of the WP, now into the last 16 weeks of campaigning. I am getting worried!

    On a more positive note, in December 2012, a straw poll of my closest friends had 1/3 Y, 1/3 N, 1/3 What referendum? Last weekend, pretty much all Yes apart from one (lives in London, still TWTPTS).

  127. CameronB
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Robert Kerr
    That’s me telt then. 🙂
    Hope you saw where I was coming from though.

  128. HandandShrimp
    Ignored
    says:

    David
     
    Yup from the people I know it is much close to 1/3 split three ways. When we did our own poll here it was also much closer to that soert of break down and when the SNP did a poll a while back it was neck and neck. Polls are a weapon as well as a gauge. We must not underestimate the challenge in taking on the big beasts of politics and media. However, they are vunerable and the population has never been more sceptical of all our institutions, be it Westminster, BBC, Banks and Newspapers. We need to use that scepticism in our campaign.  

  129. Ken500
    Ignored
    says:

    The DK’s will not vote No. They will either vote Yes or not vote. The Poll results are being manipulated.

  130. WND
    Ignored
    says:

    The 16-week bit of the campaign, when the media is at least SUPPOSED to be neutral, is the time for YES really to go on the attack.  It’s also the point at which having a proper rebuttal unit set up to answer the smears won’t be just a waste of effort  –  before that rebuttals will just be ignored, drowned out or made to look like whining.
     
    Before that it needs to be slow, patient groundwork.  Look at the number of stories on this site about friends and acquaintances coming over to YES.  Keep that ticking over in 1% increments for 5 months and things will start to look a bit interesting.

  131. seoc
    Ignored
    says:

    Westminster wallows in their claim to be the ‘mother of parliaments’ and by definition to be a bedrock of the democratic process.

    Why then do they lie, cheat, manipulate ad nauseam to thwart the genuine and sincere efforts of Scotland to rid herself of foreign interference in all her affairs?

    Something not adding up here.

    Could they explain their thinking in this?

  132. Fergie 35
    Ignored
    says:

    Fred Macauly and some phsycologist from London, had a theme on BBC radio Scotland, about how your choice of xmas cards says a lot about your character, ofcourse it was just a way of taking 10 minutes to character assasinate Alex Salmond, he is a narcassist (spelling?), he loves himself, he is a dark character etc etc. Oh and David Camerons card? Well he is wearing a nice suit and is pictured with his wife Samantha.

    They British establishment is using its media control to queitly assasinate the leaders of the Independence movement in Scotland.

    They have so much to lose if Scotland is a country not a region.

  133. caz-m
    Ignored
    says:

    @HandandShrimp

    Brilliant summary of how pro union parties are so unwilling to accept the present situation. They simply don’t recognise that they are now the minority.

    As for artists, singers, poets and all non political bodies. I think it is right that they stay quite at the moment. It’s far to early for them to make a move. They will have a plan on when to start getting the message out.

    After spring time the nation will start to get the Saltire syndrome, with the Commonwealth Games and many more events that are planned, just watch the change in the peoples mood and this will build throughout the summer.

    Also the Scottish Government never rebut a wayward poll, they simply agree with the reporter. Because they know everything will change from springtime onwards.

  134. HandandShrimp
    Ignored
    says:

    The last three months with political broadcasts and free rein to address the public, and take out newspaper adverts etc., all free from malign interuptions from  ill disposed hacks will make a difference as will the full weight of the vast number of foot soldiers the Yes campaign has. The gap will narrow. By next summer Labour and the Tories will be at war over the 2015 election and their joint campiagn will become increasingly uncomfortable for Labour activists.
     
    I saw some chap on a No Facebook site say that the SNP do not own the rights to social concern. Clearly a Labour chap he has problems because so many of the No contributors on his Facebook site are right wing Tory/UKIP wing nuts. He posts a thing about overseas aid and half of them gripe about aid and say that is not a selling point of the Union, he posts a tribute to Mandela and then has to delete a huge swathe of his No supporter comments because they are well off beam from where he was going with that thread. It can’t be easy trying to herd those particular cats. What is remarkable though is that he seems to prefer them to the people in the SNP/Green/SSP/Indy Labour camp. Each to their own.   

  135. roberto
    Ignored
    says:

    The day after the Edinburgh agreement the Scottish Daily Mail declared that it would do every thing that it could to oppose independence.They have been true to their word.The only casualty has beenTHE TRUTH.

  136. MochaChoca
    Ignored
    says:

    With regard to class sizes, the nominal increase from 23 (22.7) to 23 (23.3) seems to have massively overshadowed what are on balance a fairly good set of overall statistics, despite what must be significant pressure to make savings.

    With three sons, one in S4 (1st lot to go fully through Curriculum for Excellence), one in S1 and one in P1, I have as much reason as anyone to keep an eye on the way our eduction system is performing and I’ve been more than impressed with what I’ve seen happening over the last few years.

  137. HandandShrimp
    Ignored
    says:

    Fergie
     
    I don’t understand, how did they get that analysis from Howson’s Artaban painting? Salmond’s Christmas cards always feature work by Scottish artists and raise money for charity. They are not some sort of self advertising feature.
     
    Sounds like a spectacularly ill informed analysis by a culturally illiterate quack.

  138. Dave Robb
    Ignored
    says:

    @Bill C – I would sgree with you. I also was an active EIS member for over 30 years. I took part in several strikes in support of various left-wing causes. I finally felt that I was being conned when asked to lose another day’s pay to carry on with a strike after the issue had been settled, purely to demonstrate that, having lost on the issue, the EIS was a still force to be reckoned with. Eventually it became obvious that the EIS was essentially a career opportunity for budding Labour apparatchiks, rather than a teachers’ union – I admit to being a slow learner, due to my idealism.

    I managed to conceal my desire for indendence so well as a Modern Studies teacher that one of my ex-colleagues exclaimed in shock ” I thought you were on our side -but we stood shoulder to shoulder in two world wars – how can you want to break us up? ” when I mildly rebuked him for his “Salmond accused” diatribe at a post-retirement meeting.

    There will be a massive effort by pro-unionist teachers to  portray the “facts” as “neutrally” as possible, using the “neutral” BBC  (especially Reporting Scotland) as balance to the selective print media. I doubt if any of them will use Wings or NNS.  The neutrals won’t risk these sites either for fear of offending someone somewhere. Pro-independence teachers will be careful. as I was, to try not to influence pupils opinions directly, while giving a broader view to form considered opinions, risking flak for using “cybernat” sites.   The reults from schools do not surprise me. The pupils will be trying to approach this as maturely as possible, and will usually pick up on what appears to them to be the accepted majority view. Thus, the BBC will swing it for them.

    This process is why Primary teachers have made enviromentalism the only way to be for younger kids. It’s not that what they end up believing is wrong, but the process is not as intellectually objective as it could be.

    I would not worry too much about school pupil ballots, nor about the slaverings of the right-wing press. The real problem is selective editing and presentation of BBC and ITV news and current affairs. Getting the lie out gives the “No” side a big advantage if no rebuttal is ever given air time.

  139. desimond
    Ignored
    says:

    Fergie 35

    If thats the approach the biased media are using, well hell mend them. Given wee Ecks popularity and the advances of his party in the last 7 years or so, their pick on personnel approach appears to be disastrous.

  140. Ken500
    Ignored
    says:

    The class sizes equation do not include the classroom assistants in P1 to 3. When the SNP Scottish gov allocated the extra funding, many local authorities employed classroom assistants. The of the logistics of re – arranging classrooms etc created difficulties. When the classroom assistants are taken in to account the ratio of teachers to pupils is 18 – 1.

  141. Ken500
    Ignored
    says:

    Stop listening to programmes which are not to your liking. No listeners – no programmes. Watching or listening endorses the programme.

  142. Bill C
    Ignored
    says:

    Re the First Minister’s Christmas card and the Fred somebody show. The ideas is to deliver a subliminal negative message on the First Minister. It happens every evening on Reporting Scotland and permeates every aspect of media reporting in Scotland. It is sinister and undermines democracy, but it is what we have to overcome if we are to achieve a YES vote.

  143. Robert Bruce
    Ignored
    says:

    Meanwhile, William Hill’s have dropped their odds from 5/1 to 7/2 in the space of about a week

    http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/scottish-independence/referendum-outcome

  144. Morag
    Ignored
    says:

    I wish I understood that.

  145. Tony Little
    Ignored
    says:

    OT.  The PO is very scathing about the time the three ‘leaders’ take to ask questions.  AS in combative mode, and the usual speach not question by JoLa.  About f***ing time, IMHO.

  146. Ann
    Ignored
    says:

    I ordered by copy of the White Paper when it was released.  I’ve only just received an e-mail response and will have to wait a further 28 days to get a copy.

    Anyway latest YouGov has YES up 1% at 33%.  No stagnant at 52%, but ask the question “If you were going to be better off after Independance” the poll went to 41% yes 44% no and of course reversed when the question was put the other way.

    So the gap has dropped from 31% to 19%. So things are definately on the up and I think the gap will continue to close when people find out more and more for them selves.

  147. Jingly Jangly
    Ignored
    says:

    Ken500
    We should all stop buying unionist newspapers and not pay our licence fee.
    If the newspapers circulation goes down 1/3rd or more, they will be hit very hard in loss of sales and advertising revenue. Some may even see the light rather than go out of business.

  148. ronnie anderson
    Ignored
    says:

    Anybody got links to Mps exspences, on Anus , who payed for his trip to Pakistan to visit his family, & suposed visit to that university

  149. Marker Post
    Ignored
    says:

    I downloaded the White Paper the day after it was launched, haven’t had time to even read it yet. I reckon sometime around the middle of January would be the ideal time to start going through it.
    Beggars belief that the MSM publish such crap, and even more that they think people believe it.
     

  150. theycan'tbeserious
    Ignored
    says:

    Organisation by their very existence preach to their members that they are the best of the best, that they are better than the rest and brighter than the rest for being a part of their organisation. They tell you that you are privileged to be a part of such a professional, respected and trusted organisation. You buy into that ethos,, that belief and promote your beliefs believing you are the superior being and ultimately right. 

    There are some teachers, more so the new generation, out there who probably think they are superior not just to their pupils but to the parents as well i.e. more academic, more intellectual just better and therefore right. They are forgetting that we are in the 21st century and not the 18th or 19th century. The parents, many probably better educated and with a lot more experience of life, are now able to question how and what teachers teach and hold them to account.

    However the political leaning of a teacher being preached to a class adding a political bias, with the view to swaying opinion is unethical. Especially when children generally look up to these professionals, these mentors expecting what comes out their mouths to be “gospel” to be fact, to be the truth and therefore making their decision on what they believe to be fact and truth!

    What is more cynical is that this is done with the teacher knowing that what they are doing is to the detriment of the student, democracy, the education system, the country and the prospect of a better future. All this is acceptable collateral damage to the teacher for their ethos and their personal gain.

    In what democracy is this acceptable?   In what education system is fact and truth, which should be fundamental, now not as important as opinion and spin? What democratic country would condone this unethical behaviour by it’s educators? What political party would stoup so low as to pray on the minds of our most cherished and vulnerable?

    Better together?

  151. Edward
    Ignored
    says:

    Just going through Gordon Brown’s expenses. Any idea why Brown went to Brussels in May 2012 to have ‘MEETINGS WITH INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT COMMISSIONER AND UK AMBASSADOR TO THE EU’ travelling business class from Edinburgh costing the tax payer £ 886.00 ?
    Is the EU something in his remit as a back bench MP?

  152. X_Sticks
    Ignored
    says:

    theycan’tbeserious says
     
    “this is done with the teacher knowing that what they are doing is to the detriment of the student, democracy, the education system, the country and the prospect of a better future”
     
    Is it not true though theycan’tbeserious that they don’t see it (or know it) as detrimental. To their way of thinking WE are the ones that are doing something detrimental.
     
    Just because we ARE right, doesn’t mean that the opposition see it that way.

  153. Robert Kerr
    Ignored
    says:

    @Cameron B
     
    Had to go out but I’ll buy you a pint at the Albanach one day.

  154. Tony
    Ignored
    says:

    Met up with my mate in Edinburgh today and we visited the Scottish Parliament and heard FMQ. 6 months ago he was a don’t know but now firmly in the Yes camp! He mentioned that there is still far too many people inclined to vote No as they don’t want a SNP govt all the time. Perhaps once more people read the White Paper that message will spread.

  155. Captain Caveman
    Ignored
    says:

    In my opinion Stu, I think you can only hide behind the (surely undue, ridiculous, self-defeating?) length of this document for only so long; surely it’s been out there for long enough now to have reasonably had an effect, for the MSM to have sufficiently analysed and distilled a reasonable executive summary of bullet points.
     
    To my mind, it seems fairly clear that it hasn’t had the effect that the SNP would’ve wanted; in fact it’s had barely any discernible effect at all. If you’re somehow expecting something to happen in a month, or two months from now – at least directly as a result of this document – you’re mistaken? Voter apathy is also a key factor; surely the Scots electorate has has more than its fill of all this already, one way or another – not helped by the SNP’s protracted timescale for the Referendum itself, I might add.

  156. Rev. Stuart Campbell
    Ignored
    says:

    “surely it’s been out there for long enough now to have reasonably had an effect, for the MSM to have sufficiently analysed and distilled a reasonable executive summary of bullet points.”

    Indeed it has. So why haven’t they?

  157. Captain Caveman
    Ignored
    says:

    … Because they’re a bit rubbish and/or blatantly biased against Indy? I suspect we agree here!
     
    However, to be *equally fair* about this, it’s not the sole preserve, or duty, of the MSM media to interpret, distill, rationalise and summarise this info, in a competent and fair way (not that I’m making excuses for them, mind). The Indy movement has surely known for a long time that they cannot rely on the MSM for stuff like this, they’ve got to do the heavy lifting themselves on this one, as have the Scots electorate. And yet, we get a 700-page report that hardly anyone is going to read – schoolboy error.

  158. Rev. Stuart Campbell
    Ignored
    says:

    “And yet, we get a 700-page report that hardly anyone is going to read – schoolboy error.”

    They released a short version too.

  159. Captain Caveman
    Ignored
    says:

    Did they? Oops.
     
    Shows what I know, then. Do you know if there’s an online version of it please mate?

  160. Rev. Stuart Campbell
    Ignored
    says:

    “Shows what I know, then. Do you know if there’s an online version of it please mate?”

    Yes, I linked to it at the same time as the full one:

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/scotlands-future/

  161. Captain Caveman
    Ignored
    says:

    Cheers Stu, sorry.



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