Anthology Of Interest #2
As all the cool, good-looking people who follow us on Twitter will already know, the results of our second crowd-funded poll are in. The data tables only arrived around teatime, so we won’t be publishing anything until Sunday, because we have to analyse a great big mountain of info, write some posts about it and get those posts cleared by Panelbase, all of which takes a wee while.
But allow us to offer you the odd little teaser snippet.
This time, incidentally, Panelbase asked respondents (and there’s an intriguing twist there, but you’ll have to wait) the referendum question up front, so we get to cross-reference the other questions with it, which makes for some very interesting findings.
But for now:
– Labour voters are the most undecided about the referendum, with Conservative voters the most certain.
(By a very large margin.)
– Turnout is likely to be at least twice as high in percentage terms as last night’s by-election in Dunfermline.
(So drawing conclusions about the referendum from that is silly.)
– The gap in referendum voting intentions between 18-24 voters and those aged 25-34 is mindbogglingly wide.
(Like, really, really wide. You haven’t seen wide until you’ve seen this.)
– Liberal Democrats will sacrifice any principle for a taste of power
(Sorry about that, again.)
Excited yet?
Cannie wait! 🙂
Oh yes – bring it on. I did not stay for for Newsnicht last night, but I’ll sit up for this one.
Nice! I`ll be looking forward to the week-end`s results 🙂
so we won’t be publishing anything until Sunday
Man this is worse than giving up smoking.
I am peeing myself; OK it is Friday night.
How happy will we be with the ref question figures?
Im in the 25-34 group, hope im wrong but i reakon the younger crowd are far more likely to vote no( i know i would back then). Although im fairly sure those young uns are 10 times less likely to vote ( i know i wouldnt)
just a thought.
Power crazy Lib Dems. They should never have cast aside those sandals.
O/T (Well there isn’t much of a topic apart from breathless anticipation)
Anyone wanting to do the hard yards in West lothian tomorrow? (JLT, Pedro, Gray & others?)
There’ll be a YES stall in Fauldhouse, beside the co-op, 11am-12.30/1pm as usual.
If even Fauldhouse votes Yes, it’s in the bag. So let’s persuade them. See you there.
I’m aquiver with excitement. (weebreathlessshinysmiley)
Ps – very strange – my details just disappeared from here and I had to re-enter them, so hope this posts?
wish it was sunday already lol
hellooo Tj
Bisous
BtP, bee still my beating heart?? off to quarantine before.
Looking forward to this… 😀
really looking forward to it
Oooo I like a nice poll
be nice to see a poll to believe for once
By far the majority of the Labour voters I have discussed independence with think that Labour is completely wrong to oppose full fiscal autonomy for Scotland’s parliament even though they continue to support the UK parliamentary union and vote Labour in the meantime. It will be very interesting to see what happens on 18 September when they have to decide whether their support for full fiscal autonomy for Scotland is stronger than their loyalty to Labour.
Let it be positive news though Labour will still insist that none of their party members are wanting to vote for independence.
BtP – no need for Quarantine – I shant tell you to ‘buzz’ off 😉
Looking forward to this…………..
would be good to know poll results tonight, if its good then it will be a much nicer weekend.
get yer coat, yev pooled.
]Do you know Conan, he has my e-mail
Youngsters will vote NO because thars like that an that’s like yeah innit?
SS – ha, thats brilliant..
You’re gonna be a nightmare to be around ’til Sunday ! Condolences to your family for having to put up with an impatient bugger 😉
Speaking of twitter followers, am I imagining a steeper upward sloping curve for Wings followers? Every time I look its up about 15-20 per day.
Thank God I’m already busy and very occupied this weekend or else I’d be tearing my hair out in frustration! I’m at a Dr Who convention. In Hateshead. With 4 Doctors.
Oh god help me … The things you do for your partner …
As a 17/18 years-old student [a long long time ago] I was politically naive and politically lazy.I tended to parrot the views of my favourite teachers,or the most outspokenly confident of my peers.
Looking back I am ashamed of the way I voted in my first couple of opportunities.
I fear today’s youth are as politically naive,if not as lazy,as I was then.I can’t think of any way to inform teenagers of the importance of the referendum other than having politicians of both sides going into schools to openly debate about the issues.The issuing of leaflets and literature to schools is open to misuse and deliberate misinformation.
I hope today’s youth do not fall into the same trap as I did all those years ago.
Cant wait Stu 😉
… ps. on the last thread, I was just getting down over the by-election result. What does a competent Scottish Government need to do to make people realise what they can vote for? Sometimes feel like tearing my greying hair out! This should bring back some cheer though 🙂
Time for ma pit.
Pass the bamboo TJ, or is that for me to?
I am gauche.
The gap in referendum voting intentions between 18-24 voters and those aged 25-34 is mindbogglingly wide.
18-24s are overwhelmingly No, while 25-34s are overwhelmingly Yes – am I right or am I right? Well, it’s certainly my perception anyway: I look forward to this being confirmed, or otherwise, by the poll results!
So us non-twatterati are still hot old luddies?
oops mis-spelling
Why don’t you work full time on this website? It would be great and you could help ensure that we get the right result in a year’s time. I’m sure people would help.
You needed a poll to tell you that last point???
I hope you break it down into easily digestible chunks. I’m bound to be a little bit delicate on Sunday. My younger daughter’s 21st tomorrow night!!
I don’t think my brain will be operating too well by the time you publish the results.
I think there has been a sea change in younger thoughts. I’m 30 now, and although it was over a decade ago when I was 18 – I’d have guessed if we had a ref (although we were without a parli or it was just being built) we would vote for Indy at that age group.
What has happened to see such a huge change or contrasting opinions between those ages? The thrown down our throats of TV programs with Britain in the title. I dinnae ken.
Interesting to see these results though 🙂 Is this the ‘46% yes’ poll that someone mentioned last night on Newsnicht that didn’t have a follow up or a further mention after.
BtP – is that for you to – what? Eat shoots and leaves?
You’re gauche, I’m confused 🙂
I don’t really know Conan although I think he works around where I live.
The young are idealistic. They are not Brit Nats they are World Nats. This idealism is laudable but almost impossible to implement. Open, fair small countries are a closer expression of this ideal than super states. If we can communicate this clearly and factually then the young will be persuaded. If we allow the Nay Sayers to portray small countries as the source of all evil then they will shy away.
Of course the young are also extremely sceptical about politics (with reasonable cause I may add) and may not vote one way or the other.
Could not edit grammar because of subsequent posts.
Eats, shoot and whatever.
Gauche means that I have drunk my fill of Vimto white tonight.
Than and a haunfu of bamboo is more than an ambidextrous Panda can handle.
Better 2gether, have already got their stock answer out from that black box they keep
in some bunker !,bet they jump the gun and issue it just before Rev issues the results!!.
All of a sudden the Cabernet Sauvignon just tasted that little bit sweeter -:)
I’ll drink to that twenty14
O/T – Jack Staw standng down at next GE – and a nice wee safe seat for Tony Blair Jnr to slip into?
I had lunch with a few work colleagues today, two of whom usually slag off independence. Regardless of people’s views, they’re all interested in the referendum and seem eager to hear more information. It was the clearest indication I’ve had personally that even those who seem to be resolutely No are open to persuasion, or at the very least would like to hear information about it.
Interestingly enough, our London-born team leader seemed to be the most open to it, saying he would definitely be looking to read the White Paper when it comes out…
The clocks go back an hour this weekend, therefore you *are* actually getting the Poll 1 hour earlier than normal… at’s the gemme innit know ?
Dry boaks
Another good treason?
delib spelling mistook.
Now afftae
Nightall as a opposed to Niteol.
BtP
Rev,
Gonny give us a chance for a decent sweep here – is the ‘straight question’ just for Y/N, or is there a DK option?
If so, I’m sticking the neck out:
39.5% Yes
41% No
19.5% DK
Okay, maybe wishful thinking, but I’d be a very happy wee camper with anything near that…
“Gonny give us a chance for a decent sweep here – is the ‘straight question’ just for Y/N, or is there a DK option?”
There’s a DK option.
A bit of hope the young people in my house are defo Yes, so are a couple of their pals, tho others we know are ‘no’, this group of young folk are the ones who go with the crowd. Lets hope they grow up a bit, and soon! Looking forward to Sunday for the results maybe we will be surprised, anything could happen!
“Why don’t you work full time on this website? It would be great and you could help ensure that we get the right result in a year’s time. I’m sure people would help.”
Um…
TJQuarantine
NOW svp.
themadmurph Ah m in the appointment system fur a Lumbar puncture then a Shunt tae drain the fluid fae mae brain an ah hiv been like this fur six months so Murph you should be able tae cope I ll no be champin tatties waitin on the poll am champin at the bit the noo REV hiv you nae compassion tae a man in ma condition ma spirits needs liftin ESA stopped phone /internet no workin properly lab winnin Dunfermline any good news oot there You hiv ma e mail addy as soon as you finnish SAOR ALBA
Only two sleeps to go.
You know Stu, that Ken Barlow has a lot to answer for 🙂
Stu, you should start a fundraiser to allow you to concentrate on the website full-time.
Aye, you could mibbe’s give out badges or badgers or summit…I’m sure that would be a winner !
Thanks for the tease Stuart. I am assuming that the voter contrast you mention may point to strong Unionism among the very young voter.
If so it is a complete puzzle to me. They have after all most to lose from a dysfunctional Union State. A labour market full of zero hours contracts, low wages and job insecurity cannot be attractive. And a financial apocalypse on the way in 2015 if Max Keiser is to be believed which will devastate their prospects especially.
Can it be that they are just thick? Fed on a diet of X Factor and celebrity chique they think that London is “cool” and Scotland soooo dreadfully parochial and provincial. Life in a tartan backwater would be somehow unbearable. Independence would have them looking outside the window looking in to “where it’s at”.
Any thoughts guys?
Yes- 99.09%
No – 00.00%
D/K- 00.01%
Aye, if Stu would only start a fundraiser to allow him to concentrate on the website full-time, we maybe wouldn’t have to endure this torture.
Could the 18-24s all be dunnos and the 25-35s all be Yes?
@BTP
What’s a Vimto? A Vim and tonic – useful for cleaning out the digestive tract?? Uughh!
I think we have to keep cool regarding polls and don’t beat ourselves up. All polls are skewed in favour of the political bias of the party/organisation appointing them.
The lead (if any) is nowhere near as high for NO as the British establishment want us to believe. A good poll result is not that important for YES at this stage. The important thing is obtaining accurate information as to what it would take for the don’t knows/soft nos to vote YES.
O/T
Theres an interesting link on a post on Batemans blog which has Salmond giving a radio 4 journo a verbal kicking and is sooo entertaining, but I dont know how to link it here, sorry.
I recall that the ‘perfect storm’ for the independence movement was a Tory Government being elected close to the referendum date… we have that now, so how much of a difference to the outcome is this having as opposed to a Labour administration ?
Ooooh Rev.
Your such a tease with your poll dancing.
Can’t wait until Sunday
For some reason, I want to write that my trigger finger is itching, although I have no idea what I mean by that.
Very dole David, thanks..
You have increased my knowledge base manyfold.
See you the morning of the day after?
Your place or mine?
Think how much better this site would be with Stu working on it full time. :/
I think it will be a 5% difference between YES and NO. (No in front but down a bit)
DK’s slightly up from last time.
Bunter.
I thought that the BBC had cut the AS rebuke out of the interview. Tell us where to find it
Rev Stu – this is a an extremely important facility depending, as I understand, on a small team. You might be surprised to see the finance backing available if you were to suggest bulking up that offering. Think in terms of an on-line ‘Real Scotsman’ shadowing that deplorable, once respected, now rag-value, organisation. Most former buyers of the Herald and Scotsman are now sitting with around 350 – 400 GBP in their pockets.
@ronnie anderson
oooft! had one of those babies! Well several actually. Being a, shall we say, well padded chap it took several attempts for them to get it right! If you’ve ever had someone punch you on the kidneys, your getting close to it! You have my empathy! That said, once done it’s weird experience. You are numb, but can still wiggle your toes, and then you can’t! You try really hard but the buggers won’t wiggle 🙂 Anyway, good luck and good health!
Theres an interesting link on a post on Batemans blog which has Salmond giving a radio 4 journo a verbal kicking and is sooo entertaining
Just after 11mins [original post was by cynicalhighlander on Derek’s latest blog]
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03dvn18
I think that is the one being referred to. May be wrong.
I’m sure that somewhere i read that labour would need to have about 10-15 point lead or something about 12 months out from a uk general election, in order to win it.That will be may 2014.If that is true,then i can’t see labour winning said upcoming general election as they show no signs of reaching that kind of lead.Older heads might take this oportunity to get out for various reasons.
@ call me dave and Murray
Yes thats the one, on cynicalhighlanders comment on Batemans blog No2 . Its 11 mins into the link!
As an ex herald and bbc paying customer I wish I had 400-500 swilling about!!!!
The Rev does a great Job, and I like the site the way it is. Its the first thing I look at in the morning/last thing at night and about a dozen or more times in between.
There is plenty of info on the site, it takes me hours per day to plough though all the posts, it would be a full time job for us readers if there was more information on the site!!!!
Ill mention it again the polling info on Newsnicht last night was a poll of polls compilled by Pro Poultice not a new poll showing yes with 46%
The link from Mr Bateman’s blog to Alex Salmond putting another BBC man in his place, but very nicely, (as referred to above)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03dvn18
@ Bugger
Hope you feel OK in the morning, pal. That Vimto…well, I wudnae – just wudnae masel’
@ Barontorc
I think you’ll find the ‘small team’ are just people like you and me who feel inspired to write something and get it put out….. So why not give it your best shot?
@bunter
cynical Highlander posted this on the other thread:
For those wishing to hear the FM on World at One about 11+ mins in.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03dvn18
A politician at his finest yet the punters in Dunfermline vote in another bitter and spiteful British Labour politician. I just don’t get it.
Was that Edward Stirton that got OWNED in a most gentlemanly way?
Oops, sorry, other people have already posted the link.
The gap in referendum voting intentions between 18-24 voters and those aged 25-34 is mindbogglingly wide.
I expect that, this time, the MSM will be eager to report and discuss this sensational finding?
@john king-
‘Was that Edward Stirton…’
Yes, it was he.
AS is nothing if not polite. Remember how he handled Paxman’s ‘Mugabe’ slurs? Only time I ever noticed a flash of temper from him was at FMQs, responding to Lamont about something or other – at the very end he was glowering at her, and his final words were ‘…the poverty of this opposition.’ The way he said ‘poverty’ was utterly scathing.
Thanks to all for the link:
‘The First Eck’ was not pleased with Auntie, that cheered up a depressing day. #:0)
PS: How do you get wee smiley things ??
@ call me dave – Smiley thing 🙂 is colon,hyphen,close bracket. Unhappy thing 🙁 is colon,hyphen, open bracket. Winky thing 😉 is semicolon,hyphen,close bracket.
Hope that helps.
🙁 🙂 😉
How do you make an angry one?
tell it its a two
Rev,
Come on man – without breaking any rules, upsetting Panelbase or anyone else, couldn’t you post a ‘smiley’ which best sums up your take on it all? (Then you’re not technically ‘writing’, eh?) Or maybe even a Youtube link to a song with a helpful title?
Gowan gowan gowan gowan gowan….GOWAN!
Have you asked the ref question twice as the first and last question? That will shut them up.
I’d be interested to see a poll that doesn’t have a don’t know option.
🙂
O/T while you’re waiting for that poll –
The legal geography of Grangemouth –
http://www.andywightman.com/?p=3261
With excellent old film from 1965 –
http://ssa.nls.uk/film/3887
And from the comments, the man himself, Jim Ratcliffe –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxJoc6v-o-g
from about 3,00 mins on cutting back fixed costs.
@ Ian Brotherhood – Angry smiley thing – Oxymoron? However I am not sure if WordPress has the whole remit of smiley emoticons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_emoticons
Sorry, I’ve come late to the debate and this message is for dan huil.
I have a son, he was 15 at the last General Election when Nick Clegg
was the all the rage, he watched all the debates and came to his own conclusion
that Lib Dems were the way to go. I let him have my vote, it was that or spoil it,
none of the parties had any policies that I, personally, believed were worth voting for.
He voted for Lib Dems and soon learned a very hard lesson, when the Lib Dems went into coalition with the Tories
He is now 18, he has put much thought into the state of politics in the UK. He has vision of a country where there is not opposition, but co-operation and finding the best way forward for everyone. He sees that only happening in an independent Scotland, do not dismiss the youth in Scotland, there are many young people out there, without a voice, the unemployed, the kids from the wrong side of town, the kids that are not academic, the ones who just missed the “Grade” in their exam results. They need hope. if the Independent Movement can convince them, then Independence will be achieved.
Very O/T but on Grangemouth.
I used to work in Camelon and campaigned against Major Joyce in his by election win and have no time for him following his defence of the Iraq War.
An old colleague in the Labour Party told me all about the Stephen Deans Unite Blairite Brownite civil war and this was passed onto Private Eye, as I didn’t trust any of the Scottish media, but as a London centric organisation they were not interested.
So when Eric Joyce spoke out against the cosy Labour media consensus regarding Unite’s activities in Grangemouth on STV Scotland Tonight on Wednesday evening you could touch the venom directed againsty him.
Now Michael Connerty and others are outraged and Joyce is any easy target but it made great television on Wednesday evening.
Nevertheless we should not underestimate the corrisive effect Labour’s civil war has had on one of Scotland’s major industries.. not that the BBC or Scotland’s supine press corp, other than The Sunday Herald, was prepared to report this.
“Rev Stu – this is a an extremely important facility depending, as I understand, on a small team. You might be surprised to see the finance backing available if you were to suggest bulking up that offering. “
I touched on this during February’s fundraiser. The best way people could help that happen is by using the existing subscription facility. If every reader kicked in just £2 a month – the lowest subscription level and less than a McDonalds Happy Meal – we’d have a fighting fund of £2.4 MILLION a year. Imagine what we could do with that.
There’ll be another fundraiser this February either way, but if people want to lob some cash in the meantime it’s all gratefully received and put to good use, either as one-offs or subscriptions.
http://wingsoverscotland.com/donate/
Ach, Rev, you should never have asked them the question right out like that. People will be giving the wrong answer like they did with thinking themselves Scottish before they had a chance to think of themselves as Scottish and British so our poll is NBG before it even got going. I can see the Prof now in his black suit “Alas poor poll; I knew it well. But it didn’t give the answer required so back into the grave it goes, crowd-funded or not.”
I do love the way that the answer got from asking everyone, 4 million or so, in the anonymity of the Census is wrong as it doesn’t agree with his invigilated poll of 1000 for Scottish Social attitudes. 🙂
I can just see the headlines. Independence campaigner and well known omniphobe gleans £2.4 million per annum to fund lavish lifestyle in England.
@Barbara – Thanks for your post and no you are not late for the debate. Everyone is thinking about Wings upcoming poll results.
I can not remember where or when this comment came up on Wings, but it struck a chord at the time and I wonder if your son had thought of this.
A strong incumbent party needs a strong opposition party. It’s ok I am trying to work out the bigger picture with this for myself. It goes against what your son is aspiring to with co-operation ideals but I think that may never happen.
Maybe some others can comment and assist my wooly thinking on this
Just made a wee donation to till the fundraiser in February 😉
@Barbara Watson
“Young people need hope. if the Independent Movement can convince them, then Independence will be achieved.”
For your son:
“If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!’ Kipling
Hope and Truth go hand in hand, and Scotland’s Independence is inspired by them.
Fear and Deception are bedfellows, and the UKplc hopes to ensare many with them.
James D
Really enjoyed the Grangemouth film. Brilliant.
Barbara Watson
Well said!
– Liberal Democrats will sacrifice any principle for a taste of power
In other results from the same poll
-48% think the Pope is a Catholic
-57% think bears contiue their defecatory practices even in a sylvan setting.
Gee Rev, did you have to spend our money to find that out? We all knew it when they stopped wearing sandals. I’d have told you for nothing 😉
Scottish_skier:
Man this is worse than giving up smoking.
Just stick on one of those poll result patches and you’ll be fine.
http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2013-10-24/greatest-most-relevant-speech-ever
How times have changed.
@James D
Thanks, that Grangemouth film is just wonderful.
Incidentally, Andy Wightman stops at nothing to dig out the shit and bring it to light. One of the people I most admire (though I don’t always agree with him)
Oh I forgot there might be another poll. Exciting!!
Sigh. I’m going to Dollar for a recorder-playing weekend with half of the world-renowned Flanders Recorder Quartet (I’ll be the one at the back miming because I haven’t done any homework), and the proofs of my book arrived this afternoon and need proofreading, and now Stu has the next poll coming out.
I need something like that gizmo Dumbledore gave Hermione that allowed her to be doing two things at once.
Angry Smiley X( doesnt work 🙁
“A strong incumbent party needs a strong opposition party. It’s ok I am trying to work out the bigger picture with this for myself. It goes against what your son is aspiring to with co-operation ideals but I think that may never happen.”
The current Labour party really show this up as so true.
I don’t think what any country needs is consensus – we have a neoliberal, right wing consensus in the UK at the moment and look how that’s working out. Most of us feel disengaged with nothing to vote for. But what we really, really do need is an opposition that is strong enough that it can oppose where it needs to oppose and support where it needs to support. And confident and strong enough to do it in a sensible, decent way, not just playing politics.
Labour are so Godawful bad because they can’t do either. They oppose for the sake of opposing but are so busy doing that they can’t provide a decent opposition where it might be needed.
Two things that struck me as different recenty were
1. Reading an article by Ken McIntosh on Better Nation where he thoughtfully, intelligently gave a critique of the legislation about guardians for children. Having only so far read the usual “THEY’RE TURNING INTO THE NAZIS!!! I DON’T WANT THAT SALMOND TAKING MY KIDS!!!! stuff from Better Together sites it was such a breath of fresh air to see a Labour MSP do his job and address possible issues in legislation. All legislation needs that to be good legislation.
2. The wake-up call Grangemouth obviously gave a lot of our politicians where people clearly realised this was a bigger thing than their own squabbles.
So I guess what I’m saying is I don’t think opposition and co-operation are mutually exclusive things at two ends of a spectrum. For something to be the best it can be, it needs both support and positive criticism. And sometimes strong governments need reigned back.
if this poll is an improvement on the last poll then yes must be in the lead, if i remember right there was only a 1% lead for no in first poll.
Anyway that was long and off topic. I only came on to say I’m looking forward to Sunday! 🙂
Jings Rev, forgot all about this poll. I’d thought it was going to be run around the time the white paper was published But cannae wait for results
Ayone feeling worried about the lack of passion among the young for a better Scotland should watch this:
http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/affairs-scotland/8237-we-are-scotland-jenny-edinburgh
18-24 almost 100 percent No is my guess.
I await evidence that the young are idealistic (and I ain’t by any means ancient myself, I’m younger than the Rev ;)) and not simply worried that self-determination might rob them of their ipods and ipads..
Rev. Stu I am not always comfortable when folk suggest what to do with your website but I think that The Wee Ginger Dug (biting the hand of project fear) blog deserves a mention or even a space in your blogroll. He is putting up a fresh, informative and witty article just about every day.
Go on, the Guardian is getting as bad as the rest! 🙂
http://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/
Sounds amazing!!!
My daughter came home from school on Thursday and announced , a boy in the year above her (6th yr) was talking about ” your stuff” today. “My stuff?”- “Wings Over Scotland, he was explaining it to his pals, he’s right into it “.
To that 6th yr boy, welcome and Thank You.
Hmm, wonder what the twist is. It doesn’t lead people to vote yes does it?
@The Man in the Jar
Just had a wee look over on weegingerdug and very glad I did, funny and informative cheers for steering me over there. I’ll be back 🙂
OT
Good article and comments here, going against the Guardian’s editorial policy..
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/25/first-saw-grangemouth-flames-boy
>The Man in the Jar,
Thanks for that link – The post on supermarket VAT is fascinating.
Basically noting how supermarket taxes including VAT are all counted as being generated from the London head offices, making Scotland’s figures look weaker than they actually are.
Obviously this works both ways, but I imagine tesco and other supermarket sales make up a huge proportion of consumer spending.
Only the cool and good-looking ? That’s me fucked, al get ma coat !
Rev. I too was entertained by the wee ginger dug. You definitely have to have a look at this whole VAT issue. Also what about income tax? I worked for an English based company and my tax was collected in Manchester although I worked in Edinburgh.
Ian Brotherhood says
“The way he said ‘poverty’ was utterly scathing.”
Yes, there’s a lot to be said for measured anger, it lifts one above the baying pack
and automatically wins you the higher moral ground.
Does anyone have any sort of contact for the Wee Ginger Dug? I’d ask in a comment on the site, but anywhere that demands my social media account details to post a comment can piss right off.
Did you use YouGov? I filled in a Panelbase survey like this last week….
Bit O/T
Regarding Grangemouth, the workforce have been badly let down by Unite and now is the perfect time for consideration to be given to their relationship with the union.
The problem is this; The Labour Party have been willing architects of the present Neo Liberal ultra right wing economic system within which Ineos has been operating. This system has been exposed as corrupt and incompatible with a socially just society. Yet Unite bankroll the very party that is in large part responsible for this unfair set of circumstances.
There are several possible outcomes from this that I would like to see.
The first is that Unite sever links and remove financial backing to the right wing Labour Party.
If the first doesn’t happen, the second outcome is that the workforce sever links with Unite.
The third outcome that I would like to see, if the first isn’t met, is for reasonable Labour Party members in Scotland to sever links with Unite members within the upper echelons of the Labour Party, e.g. Lamont etc.
Unite’s current position sees them embracing Right Wing economic policies. This is outrageous!
@Craig M;
Isn’t it great that shaving £15 million at the most off operating costs by curbing salaries has negated the £150 million a year losses?
Atypical Scot;
Your point shows up the incompetence of Unite.
@Craig M;
Moreover, the emasculation of solidarity is complete. The only way a union can work, is when it’s members down tools across the country – rather than in an isolated act such as Grangemouth. Colin Fox told me a great historical fact about General Motors – A strike started in one American plant and spread across to Britain. All General Motors’ global business shut down because of workers conditions in one plant. That’s solidarity – that’s what unite is supposed to represent.
Atypical Scot says
“Isn’t it great that shaving £15 million at the most off operating costs by curbing salaries has negated the £150 million a year losses?”
Mony a mickle macs a muckle,
ah’ll get ma coat 🙁
@john king;
Sees yir jaicket. 🙂
Unless you have a link with MSN Stu, they still won’t touch the results this time.
You know what they’re like – unless it supports the Union case it will be ignored or ridiculed out of hand, by you know who.
Some readers on other sites have been saying that the initial reports from the BBC said that the union leaders had singled out Alex Salmond for particular praise because of his role in resolving the dispute but that later BBC reports had this edited out.I wonder of any WoS readers have any hard evidence of this that they can forward to Rev Stu to investigate.I also see that the website Auld Acquaintance and the Daily Mail is reporting in reference to the Grangemouth dispute that “Shadow Business Secretary Alan Duncan said last night: “Gordon Brown’s destruction of employee pensions has put strikes back on the agenda for Britain. This is one of his particularly ugly chickens coming home to roost.””
Aye that Wee Ginger Dug blog is a cracker, just read the lot of it.
Genuinely funny and heartfelt.
“Does anyone have any sort of contact for the Wee Ginger Dug? I’d ask in a comment on the site, but anywhere that demands my social media account details to post a comment can piss right off.”
I have left a comment on Wee Ginger Dug and have not been asked for a social media account. I am afraid of tractors and televisions so I don’t have a Facebook or Twitter account. would “the system” recognise this?
Listened to GMS this morning and there was a lengthy piece on Grangemouth with John Swinney on the programme. I think the general consensus was that the Scottish Government did a lot to bring the two sides together and were active in trying to secure a long term future for the plant. Although it may annoy some on the opposition benches and some of the more bitter of our Better Together chums, the Scottish Government did what you would want a government to do and acted in a very competent way.
Dunfermline got but a 1 minute slot, with the comment that the photo op hug between Johann and Cara had to be the most wooden and posed since first night hugs on Strictly Come Dancing.
@ Marian
The live BBC interview of Len McCluskey when he arrived on the scene comes to mind where he praised the FMs stance of closure being unacceptable. He went on to say he was in accord with this. He made no mention of any Westminster politician that I recall. A shortened version of the interview was used by the BBC in subsequent broadcasts, but all appeared to have cut out any reference to the FM.
@HandandShrimp;
Judgement reserved until the nature of the new gas terminal is disclosed. Natural gas was apparently running at less than 60% capacity, Ineos were promoting the site as a future fracking ethane site.
Based on the amazing turnaround in prospects for Grangemouth – something I cannot believe was hung on salaries – I fear a deal was desired by Ineos for fracking, and the closure was a double bluff about the ethane contract.
The BBC always cut a story to the minimum as it gets older, I think most of the media outlets have given credit where it is due though…even Euan McColm and that doesn’t happen often. No idea what Cochers has said though….he is probably so happy that Unite came a cropper that he has suspended his ire on Salmond for a few moments….he will probably make up for it later 🙂
Re HandandShrimply
According to Eric Joyce, Johann Lamont is a member of Unite.
I think it’s about time that she was put under some scrutiny regarding this, as Unite are bankrolling Labour, the architects of the disasterous economic system that has so nearly resulted in the Grangemouth debacle and the loss of hundreds of jobs.
When are people going to wake up to the stark facts; Unite and Labour are responsible for economic criminality on a grand scale. Johann, as a member and shaker of both organisations is culpable.
Atypical
Yes, in the midst of all this Swinney said a deal had been cut with BP on ethane for the plant too. So I do think that fracked gas is going into Grangemouth…although I don’t think that is tied to fracking in the central belt but rather gas from elsewhere. No doubt at some point fracking in Scotland will come to the fore and if we vote No Taylor might come looking for his pound of flesh for bank-rolling the No campaign.
@ handandshrimp.
Aye – did you see lamont, curran and wotsername together.
“Hubble Bubble Toil and trouble” went through my head right away.
@HandandShrimp;
UK gov invests in Scotland for cheaper US fracked gas before independence referendum bypassing closer rUK refineries in the process? 🙂
Re fracking –
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-24554472
The British Geological Survey (BGS) is to begin work next year on estimating the size of shale gas deposits between Edinburgh and Glasgow
@mr thms
Another BBC “dumbing down” of tech stuff. For north of England they state “BGS has already completed a study on a large part of the north of England, estimating the area contained 1,300 trillion cubic feet of deposits.”
Is this the volume of the shale or the volume of the gas contained in that shale? Further, let’s not specify the third and most useful figure, the volume of recoverable gas in the shale.
If these volumes are for gas they should be specified at Standardised or Normalised conditions.
I despair of the BBC. For many reasons.
Billionaire investor T. Boone Pickens talks on Bloomberg about the U.S. oil and natural-gas industries, the lack of a US energy policy and the outlook for oil prices.
While I do not agree about the safety of fracking, he does talk about the future of natural gas and its importance to the USA (also export potential – Grangemouth?)
Some quotes:
– US uses 18m oil, they produce 9m themselves (up from 5m). Half of the (8-9m) imports come from Canada/Mexico and the other half from OPEC (4-4.5m).
– 70% of oil consumption is driven by transport which he wants to convert Nat Gas.
– Nat Gas comes out of the ground at 130 octane and does not need complex refinement (only simple). Is 30% cleaner and half the price of diesel.
– Only 10%of OPEC’s 17m Persian Gulf production comes to the US. Contrast that to the military presence in the region.
– $80 is the floor for oil prices to ensure US rigs do not need to be shut down.
@thms;
Gulp.
Just what exactly was agreed to make Grangemouth transform from a £150 million a year loss maker to a business venture with a very bright future?
Coal is one of the cheaper form of energy. Black Gold. It is plentiful all over the UK. Hulne refused permission for a CC Project at Longannet in Fife, even through the funds were available. The ConDems/Clegg made funding (£Billions) available for two coal fired energy plants to be built in the NE of England (Clegg’s constituency). Scotland could not apply for £Billion EU Grant
for Renewables because of Westminster indecision .
Gas is being imported from Norway. Statoil. A Gas pipe line has been built from Russia to Germany through the Baltic? Sea, to supply Europe with Gas.
A tidal barrage scheme planned for the Humber? £10Billion, was cancelled because it was too costly? Now a Nuclear Plant £19 Billion++ (without de-commissioning costs) is planned near the
sea. Where will the waste be stored?
Nuclear Plants built in Finland and France are years late and £Billions over budget. Shares in French nuclear fuel companies have halved, since the Japanese disaster.
A tidal estuary barrage scheme was buillt at Dinard, France in 1960.
@Ron Burgandy – a few thoughts – a large percentage of the young have been apolitical for years.
Most of them grew up in the boom years and were used to getting all the material things they desired- new iphone/ipad etc.
Times have changed now and I don’t think they are fully aware of all the implications yet – as a lot of them will be at school/uni/college/apprenticeships.
In a way I think the SG has almost been too successful in protecting them from reality and BTW very few have ANY idea of reality at school – the guidance system sees to that.
When I grew up most of us were very political.
We had Bob Dylan, the civil rights marches, the black power movement, the upper clyde ship yards, Jimmy Reid etc.
I think when the youth do start to engage and have access to the facts – difficult I know – then we might see a change.
Regarding Grangemouth. I wonder how it would have worked out if Labour were in power in Holyrood and J. Lamont (unison) was first minister?
Man in the jar,
I think the wee ginger dug is by Paul Kavanagh, who writes also for NewsnetScotland on occasions. He is an exceptionally witty writer – an example being this pithy piece;
http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-opinion/1430-scotland-westminster
Marvellous!
“I have left a comment on Wee Ginger Dug and have not been asked for a social media account. I am afraid of tractors and televisions so I don’t have a Facebook or Twitter account. would “the system” recognise this?”
Actually it turns out it sort of does. The reason I was having problems is the default email address I use for comments is linked to an old WordPress account somewhere, so on certain sites when I try to comment WordPress sticks its big fat nose in unasked and demands that I log out of my normal account (the one I edit Wings with) and log in to that one, the irritating tossbubble. If I just type in any old address instead it butts out. Crisis over!
Think the ginger dug needs to be sure that the VAT estimate is fair – most basic food items are zero-VAT, although alcohol, sweets, hot food, snacks and crisps, sports drinks and non-food items would all generate tax. Still a hearty sum for Scotland’s GERS calculation though.
INEOS is investing £300Million to upgrade Plant and cut losses. Scottish Gov is investing £9million and Westminster gov giving a loan of £150Million = £1/2Billion to upgrade plant – cover the losses and go into surplus. The company will probably have loans (bank debt) accumulated from covering the losses since the Recession – 2008 – five years. Five years of losses. The bottom fell out of their Market – less customers/markets.
The Refinery will make profit, the Chemical plant will have been making a loss – declining customers. The prolonged recession with no upturn.
INEOS was already negotiating over the final salary pension fund running at a loss because of the economy- low interest rates – plus the the Recession. The Union and the Company were already in negotiations. The allegedly criminal activities of a Union official caused the Plant to shut.
The Scottish Gov had already announced a five year plan to invest £Millions creating jobs in the area. Two months ago.
The Yacht will be leased from the Bank, the Banks will own it. The £Million salary will be borrowed from collateral, worldwide going down.
Scotchwoman
You are absolutely right – and not just basic food items are zero rated. I have left the following comment on that site which is awaiting moderation-
‘While I agree with the sentiment of your article – and there will be VAT remitted by the supermarkets – food in the UK is zero rated for VAT. You cannot therefore extrapolate directly from turnover. There will be VAT payable on non-food sales and items such as certain prepared foods, confectionery, etc. The info. can be seen at http://tinyurl.com/o42mnj6‘
To be fair to the author of that blog, if his/her experience is mainly Spanish, VAT (IVA) is levied in Spain on all foods, albeit at varying rates.
Re the forthcoming poll analysis by Rev Stu, for one of the very few times ever I actually took part in this Panelbase survey. It was quite wide ranging in its questions, and not only gave me the opportunity to state my political preferences (SNP and Scottish independence in my case) but also the chance to comment on the performance – or lack of same – of the other mainly unionist parties, and their leaders.
So I hope my tiny individual contribution will have helped put a more positive result on the pro-independence figures. Folk like me may be wee acorns in the political sense, but together with lots of other similar acorns, we can eventually grow into a big independence forest of oaktrees!
BT and the Unions have acting illegally, e-mailing voters as interest groups trying to influence the Election results and breaking Election finance campaign rules, putting the budget over the limit. The Unions have been e-mailing members telling them to vote for Labour and BT have been e-mailing voters telling them to vote Unionist. It is electoral fraud on Parliamentry Election rules, trying to influencing the outcome. They have been breaking the Law. They can be sanctioned and fined. Any individual concerned can be sent to jail. Breaking the Laws they make. They think they are above the Law. The Elections should have been declared null and void and a new election should be declared. The winner should be banned from holding Office and standing for election again.
Many people think 16 year olds should not be allowed to vote. Too young and inexperienced.
18 is more reasonable.
There should be no sectarian Laws. Scotland is a secular country. Laws should be for all. There are akresdyb Laws covering Offence.
Damn I-board
There are/were already Laws covering offence.
Ken500 – A stated before Ineos long trem strategy is to relocate operations to cheaper sector e.g. USA. This year’s deal will be ok until next time Ineos want to sell/hold country to blackmail. Also who gives a fuck about Ratcliffes yacht. Ineos are getting rid of final salary pension , that was part of deal. As mentioned above the scale of losses or if indeed there are losses are open to debate. How does 15o million loan = 1/2 billion investment? I don’t know where you get your figures from but the oil by-product market in UK is incresing every year so why would the chemical plant lose money as far as I understand the refinery loses money due to the high cost of north sea oil and the chemical plant (which was not under threat but stayed open) makes money for Ineos and Chinese joint owners.
As for bank loans Ineos is funded world wide by bank loans due to the nature of its takeover and ownership structure and normal corporate practice. The company has made profits overall. Remember the scottish part of Ineos is a small part of its total world wide operations so I can’t get where your coming from in relation to your post or where you got your figures. Could you supply a link to them if possible, thanks.
Ken500
I don’t think is correct to say that the UK government has given Ineos any loan. The UK government has “given its prequalification approval for a £125m loan guarantee facility.”
The gamble therefore is on the future profitability of Ineos and maybe the commercial success of the Gragemouth plant in particular. Given Ineos are globally profitable, the potential of shale gas (whether “local” or imported) and that it is the UK government that would award licenses, you have to think this loan guarantee was an “educated” bet.
Just speculating.
Rergarding the younger members of our society and how they will vote in the referendum I can only say that I am not overly optimistic.
Something is happening in our schools that looks dodgy. It may be that the kids are intending to vote NO just out of bravado, as it has become the ‘In’ thing to do: like picking on the red haired kid.
But it may also be that they are being spoon fed lies. I saw this happening during the Kosovo crisis. I used to drive one of those mini buses that picks up children who live in outlying areas and transport them to their school. I was pretty much appalled at hearing the kids uninformed opinions about that carry on. It was obvious that their teacher was ‘at it’.
My grandson (seven years old) asked me on Thursday if I thought that North Korea would really fire a nuclear missile at Scotland. (Remember that baloney about Scotland not being able to defend itself?) His wee face showed that he was concerned. I burst out laughing and reassured the wee lad that there was nothing to worry about and that it was all nonsense. It turns out that he heard it from his class mates in school. Where did they hear it from?
Just who is putting out this stuff?
http://youtu.be/Sm4mX_-hbEE
Please share with as many people as possible and direct them to Wings.
Many Wings Make Flight Work ! 🙂
@Scotchwomanand Alan 28
You are correct and saved me some typing.
Although cumulatively we are still looking at a lot of money not allocated in Scotland.
Alex
kendomacaroonbar, all I want is a Wings car sticker wie the web address on it, is that too much tae ask fur?
@Tree of Liberty
Let me have a word with some magic pixies and let’s see what could be possible.
I see a rather disturbing pattern developing as regards Trade Unions.
Have just read another expose article on Newsnet Scotland, http://tinyurl.com/p48r84o in which it highlights that the GMB union sent letters to members in Dunfermline telling them to vote Labour.
The letters were sent on behalf of Harry Donaldson, the GMB Scotland Regional Secretary, the letters told the member: “Please make sure you use your vote in this by-election and please cast it for Labour’s candidate Cara Hilton.”
The article states that there has been, understandably, anger among GMB members, that union funds have been used in this way. The article shows a copy of the letter, which apparently has also been shown on Facebook.
This follows hot on the heels of the revelation that the CWU have been sending a so called briefing note http://tinyurl.com/nr69y9p to members that basically was straight from Better Together. Telling, was when Newsnet asked Andy Kerr, Deputy General Secretary of CWU, to comment, Kerr dismissively stated “I do not know who you are or what your organisation is and therefore we will not be explaining anything regarding this document.”
CWU held a series of meetings this week in various Scottish cities to discuss and debate the forthcoming referendum. According to one contributor on WOS, who attended the Edinburgh meeting, when a show of hands was requested at the end of the meeting, the move was dismissed by Andy Kerr.
The USDAW leadership have also shown a less than balanced view towards independence
What is clearly apparent is the leadership in those and possibly other trade unions are, to use an American Football parlance, ‘running interference’ for Better Together and Labour
Any Trade union members should start to be more vocal and come out and attack its leadership in these situations. Branches, such as CWU Scotland Number 2 have shown the way, when they voted in March 2013 to support independence after having a balanced debate
Ah Roughbonds…I was a kid during the Thatcher years and about 8 during the Falklands crisis. I remember none of us would eat corned beef because it was “Argie” and might be poisoned. At one point our A-team like gang followed some poor old chap home spying on him because he’d bought corned beef so we though he was an Argie spy. Quite where we got that I have not the faintest, foggiest idea. I imagine a tabloid had something about the UK no longer importing Argentinian corned beef and in some kid’s imagination it got blown out of all proportion and became the school meme.
As for the older kids, the ones who can vote, I’d be careful about treating them as daft or apathetic or too caught up with electronics. If anything those things relate far more to my generation of 30-40 year olds. For teenages, a year is a very long time, and their minds are very open. Better Together didn’t want them to have the vote because they believe they’re easily manipulated. Once they did get the vote it’s very clear Better Together got right in there and started targetting them. That, plus the media derision towards independence is paying off with that age group (I think anyway, unless I’m going to be very shocked tomorrow).
Kids at school are hugely driven by peers and peer pressue (you have to be very strong not to conform at school and get away with it). The No side are the ones with all the media, able to relentlessly deride the yes supporters and feed their propaganda in there. Most people that age will not be interested or engaged enough to be looking any further. But I also suspect those of that age group who do vote will be among the least likely to vote uninformed. They will want to find out the facts before next year, and their young brains are far quicker to take in information, they’re more capable of changing their minds to fit new information than oldies. Once they see some of their peers beginning to get passionate about independence, they’ll want to know what it’s all about. And most dangerous for Better Together, I think, is that kids that age will really, really not like being lied to and taken for idiots.
kendomacaroonbar, yir a guid man, (or Wummin, no offence meant)!
Man In the Jar, weil done read the Paul Kavanah letter is a Dolly Pairtin letter D.I.V.O.R.C.E. next step oota office jialed fur spousel abuse
@Edward
Political Role within the CWU
THE RELATIONSHIP
The relationship between the Labour Party and the CWU operates at three levels: national, regional and local.
National: The CWU is represented on the Labour Party’s National Executive Committee in the Trades Union section by Andy Kerr, CWU Deputy general Secretary (Telecoms and FInancial Services). The union is represented on the National Policy Forum by General Secretary Billy Hayes.
The CWU also has representation on the Trade Union Liaison Committee with the General Secretary, which brings trade unions together in order to organise support during election campaigns.
Regional: There are eleven Labour Party Regions and the CWU is represented on most of the Regional Executive Committees. These act as administrative units to co ordinate the work of the Party.
Local: Each Branch of the CWU can affiliate to Constituency Labour Parties within their boundaries. The CWU Branch can then send a nominated delegate to CLP meetings to support the work of the Party in that Parliamentary Constituency.
POLICIES
The CWU is able to send delegations of its members to both the national Labour Party Annual Conference and Regional Labour Party Conferences. At these conferences, the union is given voting rights in accordance with its affiliated membership, weighted by a 50:50 percentage division between trade union and CLP voting strengths. The CWU has a direct input into debates by being able to submit motions and amendments and through contributions by its delegates.
PARLIAMENTARY SELECTIONS
The CWU has nomination rights for candidates involved in standing for Parliament in individual Parliamentary Constituencies. Up until 1993, trade unions had voting rights in Parliamentary selections, but the move to a One Member, One Vote (OMOV) procedure limited trade union involvement to nominations.
PARLIAMENTARY REPRESENTATION
The following are CWU constituency supported MPs:
Joe Benton (Bootle) former Girobank Clerical Officer
Michael Connarty (Linlithgow & East Falkirk)
Jon Cruddas (Dagenham and Rainham)
Peter Hain (Neath) former UCW Head of Research
Kate Hoey (Vauxhall)
Bob Laxton (Derby North) former BT Engineer
Constituency Development Plan Agreements have been established with the Constituencies of the following MPs:
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North)
Sadiq Khan (Tooting)
Malcolm Wicks (Croydon North)
The CWU also has a special relationship with two members of the House of Lords who are former UCW/CWU officers:
Lord Clarke of Hampstead and
Lord Young of Norwood Green
All these politicians are from the Labour Party.
POLITICAL FUND MANAGEMENT COMMITTEE
Internally the CWU has the above committee to manage the Political Fund of the union. By law, the union is required to ballot its members on retaining a Political Fund every 10 years. The last ballot was held in 2004 and 73% voted in favour of retaining the Fund. The PFMC deals with all political matters except policy issues which are handled by the Policy, Education& Training Committee.
LABOUR PARTY MEMBERSHIP
Under the rules of membership agreed by the Labour Party in 1993, trade union members belonging to a union affiliated to the Labour Party can join the Labour Party as full members for only £12 a year. The CWU has run many recruitment initiatives to maximise recruitment to the Labour Party from its own ranks.
In other words the CWU are politically joined at the hip with Labour, so don’t be to surprised if they come out and recommend to their Scottish CWU membership to support better together. I say well done to the Scotland No.2 Branch.
Inbhir Anainn6.04pm
That is just so sickening on so many levels in today’s world!
I can understand why this joined-at-the-hip relationship first developed. It was when Labour was the “third party” in UK politics (in which the antiquated FPTP voting system encourages a duopoly) and it really was necessary to get all the working man’s (and it was men only voting back then) vote behind the only left-wing party that had a real chance of breaking the mould of UK right-wing politics of priviledge and patronage.
Boy, has the Labour party come a long way since! They’re now more right-wing than the major right-wing party in Finland! The trade unions (or their top men) got and still get their slice of political power through Labour.
The ordinary working person has been left by the wayside long ago. I don’t understand how Labour or the trade unions have the audacity to grandstand and pretend to represent the common working man. The trade union movement, with their continual support to Labour (and power-sharing within Labour) are working in direct opposition to the interests of the ordinary wage-earner.
Many leftist/centre-leftist parties in Finland, especially the Social Democrat Party (one of the big four – we have a different political system (PR) and culture and there are usually 3-4 major parties, 3-4 minor parties and 2 to 4 small parties in parliament, and all governments are coalitions with 2-6 parties) have strong links with the trade union movement and trade union activists. Still, it’s not quite as entrenched as with UK Labour/unions. As far as I know, trade unions have an advisory capacity, not actual voting rights at party conferences or leader elections etc!
And what about the British worker who sincerely supports old trade union goals and ideals of worker’s rights and collective bargaining etc. and therefore is a member of a union, but politically wanted to vote, say, Green? Only to find that his/her trade union fee was used to prop up an opposing political campaign! As if the Labour party was the only one that supported worker’s rights (which it actually doesn’t, not anymore.)
In Finland many trade unions offer the opportunity to opt in for a political levy for one of the lefty parties but it’s not automatic. Whereas in Britain, the bloated, priviledged, power-hungry, out-of-touch Labout party sees it as their entitlement to siphon off all those lovely union fees. Several unions have now warned Labour that they’re going to slash their funding of the Labour party – perhaps a reflection of the numbers of union members opting out of the Labour political levy, now that they can?
But the UK Labour party carries on regardless, they only want power at Westminster at any cost, they want to win Tory Middle-England and count on “any-donkey-with-a-red-rosette” voters to help them. But do they not see that the old core vote is seeping away? Or maybe they do but just don’t care, because who else would that voting fodder vote for? The Tories? No way! The LibDems? Well, we saw how that ended up! UKIP? Now, there’s a threat, and also a constituency to be won if we make our policies even more right-wing…
The only place in the UK where people really have an alternative is Scotland. Don’t like CON/LIB/LAB? Vote SNP. You might not agree with the independence bit but they seem competent, and there’s going to be a referendum, anyway.
The UK political system is so undemocratic, so corrupt, so dead that the only hope of any kind of improvement is Scottish independence. It’ll be good for the people of Scotland, but it’ll also be good for the people of rUK. A shock to the system that might see the real rUK left get their finger out and DO something!
Sorry for the rant. 🙁
@luumilumi-
Hear hear.
You shouldn’t apologise – it’s not a ‘rant’.
It’s a perfectly rational explanation of the reality we’re in. I guess, in a way, it’s what Russell Brand was on about to Paxman t’other night, but you’ve put a Scottish slant on it and, if I may say so, outlined the problems better than he did.
Perhaps it’s because you’re an ‘outsider’ of sorts (you know what I mean) that you can see it so clearly. I wish I had someone like you with me when we’re on the street-stall – I get very tongue-tied, don’t know where to start. And when it comes to the Labour councillors who’ve had it so good for so long hereabouts, and they give us the big dirty looks, as if they have some Divine Right to decide our futures and we’re somehow ‘inconveniencing’ them? Oh lordy…it goes beyond language then…
@Ian Brotherhood
LOL, I wouldn’t be much good at a street stall or canvassing at the doorstep. I’m actually quite a shy person except among friends, and I wouldn’t presume to tell people F2F how to vote in the referendum because I don’t live in Scotland at the moment. And my English is a strange mixture of American/English posh/Australian/Scottish accent and idiom. Long story. (My mongrel accent is actually quite useful professionally because I can’t be pidgeonholed, like the English usually do.)
So what am I doing on a site like this, spouting my opinions, since I don’t have a vote in the referendum?
I lived in Scotland and loved the country. The people were so welcoming (we shared some jokes about shitty big neighbours…) and Scotland is one of the most beautiful countries in the world. OK, so the weather isn’t all sunshine but they’ve invented goretex!
My life and experiences in Scotland have led me to wish all the best for the people of Scotland and their country, and I firmy believe it can be best achieved through independence. When Scottish people, not Westmister parties, decide on their own matters, and Scotland has a real presence on the international stage.
I try to excuse my rants and essays here at WoS by giving perspectives from a “small” independent country (pop 5.2 m, area about four times that of Scotland, 1.5 that of Great Britain) and give insights of how it’s done elsewhere. That the Westminster way is not the only way.
@lumilumi-
More power to ye.
I hope you’ll make it over here for the party next year!
We’ll have the same wallpaper tables out on the streets, but there won’t be any room (or need) for leaflets and petitions – instead, they’ll be covered with the best food and drink we can muster for a once-in-a-lifetime knees-up.
@ian brotherhood
It’s my dream to arrange my finances/holidays so that I could be in Scotland for two-three weeks before/after 18.9.2014. To experience history first hand. And if it’s a NO vote (which I don’t believe it will be), I can still run to the Scottish hills and get away from all the unionist gloating, wild camping with Scottish friends.
@lumilumi-
Glad to hear it.
I’ve a few friends living abroad who are certainly planning to be back thenabouts. I keep telling them, ignore the bloody polls – you really want to take a chance on missing such an historic event in the company of your loved ones? It’s madness to even contemplate – the regret would be crippling.
It’s something that’s barely been discussed, come to think of it – Scotland has no problem mustering thousands to follow our football team, but what sort of numbers should be expected to come here next Sept, especially if a Yes vote is looking likely?
I couldn’t even hazard a guess at what the number might be, but I daresay we probably don’t have enough hotel/B&B rooms to make much of a dent in it.
@lumilumi-
PS
It’s hard to imagine BT organising firework displays and street-parties for next September. These things take time to organise (especially those big firework displays) so I guess we should get wee hints in the not too-distant future about what the respective camps are planning.
When we say ‘Yes’, Scotland’s major cities had better be prepared – the world will be watching.
Ian@10.47
I couldn’t even hazard a guess at what the number might be, but I daresay we probably don’t have enough hotel/B&B rooms to make much of a dent in it.
So that’d be my wild camping option, then 😀 Are you allowed to pitch a tent discreetly out of sight in Holyrood Park? Or even in Prices Street Gardens close to the big screens where the festival is going to be? 😀
ian@10.51
Not sure about the fireworks, either way…
I was (by a happy accident) in Estonia when Moscow finally acknowledged Estonian independence in the early 1990s. Estonia had already been recognised by all western democracies and most other countries but the Estonians were holding their breath until Moscow said “Da”. And even when the news came through about the Moscow recognition, they didn’t dare to let it out. It was very strange. We Finns in our party wanted to order (Soviet) champagne and congratulate and celebrate, the Estonians very subdued and deeply emotional, didn’t dare to believe the dream had finally come true. No street parties, no fireworks, but a deep sense of awe, disbelief, hope, and more than anything, happiness. They’d done it against all odds.
Maybe the Estonian’s reaction was tempered by decades of propaganda, brainwashing, conditioning. How dare you think you could be independent? You’re just too small, too insignificant, too stupid, you need Mother Russia to guide you!
A terrible regime, something that would never happen in the western world… Oh…
Never mind the fireworks boys – just make sure someone agrees to do the washing up.
@lumilumi-
That’s brilliant first-hand testimony – it should be an article right here.
and Paula?
Hey, no sweat, I’ll happily get on a new pair of Extra-Large Marigolds….but not before we’ve partied, day and night, like we never have before, or ever will again in our lifetimes. Cause, let’s be honest – it never has happened, nor can again.
It will be truly fucking awesome.
Paula @11.43
Can’t the parties all use biodegradable, recycleable crockery?
And maybe the biggest wash-up is after independence day in 2016 when all the lies and propaganda will be exposed?
@ Ian
I wittered on about this in the Latvia thread a couple of days ago. But I’ve got my old passport to prove it. I went into CCCP and came out of Eesti Vabariik. The Estonian government/officials had obviously been planning for the event (it takes more than two days to have dozens, even hundreds, of stamps made). Moscow obviously didn’t “prenegotiate” but the Estonians got on with it on the quiet, and I don’t mean little details like stamps for border controls.
How could Estonia do all that oh, so difficult, stuff? Didn’t they know it’s too difficult and expensive and just not worth the bother? All thon international treaties and organisations and what about all the government stationary! It’s going to cost a bomb to change the letterheads!
That’s what the No Scotland campaign are, in effect, saying to Scotland, to all the people in Scotland. What a vision for a country’s future.
The relief and the release when Scotland votes for Independence, for Democracy to finally be established in Scotland, since 1928. The best day of their lives. To finally get the dead hand of Westminster away. Many people will die happy.
The relief that the SNP Scottish Gov was in power in with a landslide victorory, with the approaching likelihood of a right wing cabel ConDem at Westminster.
The final return of complete Democracy to Scotland, where every vote counts, is day worth waiting for and is finally in the grasp.
Ken500, “Many people will die happy.” I’m wan o’ them. I bought a bottle of Tobermory 15 year old on Thursday, that we when get the yes yote, it and me are goin to party.