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Another problem solved

Posted on May 21, 2020 by

When the news isn’t news:

Lots of Scottish newspapers (most notably everything in the Herald And Times Group) had already ducked out of providing ABC figures at all, but this will be a godsend for the rest to save their growing embarrassment.

Wings readers can remember the pitiful state of the last published figures here.

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    454 to “Another problem solved”

    1. Spikethedee says:

      This sets a lovely precedent – “Sorry Boss, I can’t provide you with an update of how much work I did this week, as that would provide you with stimulus to write a negative productivity report.” Genius!!!!

    2. Alasdair Macdonald says:

      Of course, our wonderful media NEVER write “negative narratives”about the SG, Scotland, SNP, any person or group who is not ‘unionist’, when they obtain data under FoI. Do they??????

    3. Muscleguy says:

      i’m reminded of the old saw that we will never be free until the last lawyer is throttled with the entrails of the last priest. Perhaps we should include the last print journalist or editor in there as well.

    4. shug says:

      Looking in my local co=op early morning the numbers of papers available to buy are about a quarter of what they used to be.
      In the past the Record might have had 2/3 piles. Today one, and it was not full. Just a sample!

      At some point you might think the editorial board might think a change of tack would be required. It is astonishing that the Boards of Directors are not driving the management team to provide a paper aligned to reader requirements.

    5. Republicofscotland says:

      So the unionist press has stopped publishing the figures of their ultimate demise. The figures must be really low which I find not surprising. I saw a chart recently that claimed the UK press is the least trusted in Europe.

      An impartial press is important, but this lot can f+ck-off into obscurity for all I care good riddance to the lot of them.

      They moved online fair enough, hopefully the day will come when I no longer catch a glimpse of shitrags such as the Daily Mail or Express in my local shop as I walk in the door.

    6. Newburghgowfer says:

      Haven’t bought 1 newspaper since 2014. I passed this onto various bloggers and the purchase of alcohol to toast the demise of inept journalism in Scotland. Cant see my purchasing choices changing in the near future. Also cancelling my Sky subscription for being a total waste of money and spending it on a Golf holiday every year instead was another bonus.

    7. Bob Mack says:

      Fake news indeed. The Unionist leaning papers are on the slippery slope to oblivion. Had it not been for Westminster grants, some may have already expired..

    8. winifred mccartney says:

      What is astonishing is that they still don’t realise why this is and continue to print utter nonsense and only speak for their very rich and right wing owners or for the green ink brigade.

    9. Jim Thomson says:

      Ok, so, as an advertiser, I’d be expected to either believe the publication’s circulation figures or, I’d be expected to pay for an ABC subscription?

      Yeah, way to inspire confidence.

      Lies, damned lies and ABC circulation figures.

    10. “The most powerful form of lie is the omission”. Orwell

    11. Willie says:

      A free press ready to inform?

      No, absolutely not. A press ready to suppress truth and openness to keep people in the dark. The decision to stop publishing figure says it all.

      The MSM is a disgrace.

    12. Ron Maclean says:

      From @KateForbesMSP

      ‘We have already agreed a £3m package with the Scottish Newspaper Society, on top of the £440,000 package for local papers. That means Scottish papers only ones to get double support from UK & Scot Govs. Many ‘local papers’ already get 100% relief through the Small Business Bonus.’

      Words fail me.

    13. J Galt says:

      Surely these corpses must be kept twitching by some means of subsidy – they can’t be going concerns.

      Where the cash is coming from and the manner of it’s transmission is of course a matter for conjecture.

    14. One_Scot says:

      Well said Willie.

    15. Stoker says:

      “..ABC sales charts have been stopped permanently as they give stimulus to write a negative narrative of circulation decline.”

      LOL! A very strange way of saying:

      We write shite and our enemies are exposing us.

    16. mogabee says:

      Going, going, not too long before they is gone!

      Or, at least so irrelevant and inconsequential that they’ll be just another niche market.

      Oh dear, never mind…moving on

    17. Stoker says:

      Here’s a thought, apologies if someone has beat me to it but should they be allowed to do that given it is our taxes that now prop them up? Makes what the SNP are doing even more out of order.

    18. Millennium says:

      Why don’t these struggling rags join forces and call their new newspaper “The Unionist”

      And their struggling Political Party’s could do likewise and form just one political Party called “The Unionist Party”.

      After all, we need some out of the box thinking in these troubled times.

      And the way the SNP are heading, they could become the largest contributor to this new Unionist Party.

    19. robert graham says:

      This is the latest ploy being used by a whole army of people thats being used to protect and cover up the mistakes of a dictatorial fascist out of touch government.
      The hiding of falling Newspaper sales it is the same as the BBC hiding details of falling revenue from the Licence Tax ,along with the real recorded death rate ,
      Everything this government does is designed to stop ordinary people seeing exactly what they are up too , governments hide things for a reason usually its not for your benefit.
      These few things that are being highlighted are they just a distraction to avoid scrutiny of other stuff that this lot really want hidden , keep the mugs in the dark it makes them easier to manipulate is the plan .

    20. mogabee says:

      Or another way to hide money from large unscrupulous investors perhaps?

    21. Colin Alexander says:

      A big bung of Scotland’s public money to the media, so the media can write stories saying Scotland’s people are subsidy junkies and scroungers.

    22. FiferJP says:

      That’ll give BBC Scotland ideas. Next step for the newspapers is to say that sales are up or starting to go up: no actual figures though, just take their word for it.

    23. Daisy Walker says:

      But, but…. I thought bad news sold newspapers, isn’t that what they used to say?

      They’ve been loss leaders and propaganda pamphlets for their non domicile, tax dodging owners for a long time now.

    24. Davy Smith says:

      Why is the SG subsidising it’s enemies..?

    25. Muscleguy says:

      My No voting wife during Indyref one agreed with me on the media being biased and on the direction of bias. If you are a Unionist the unrelenting bile against your own country must get to you on some level causing you to recoil.

      Even if NO Yes supporters ever bought a paper it would not explain this decline. It’s the lack of trust. Brexit happened because the UK papers delighted in firstly not reporting the EU properly and secondly in traducing it and laughing at it instead. The latter was easier and more fun so shit on properly informing people. It isn’t surprising that many are utterly ignorant about what the EU used to do for us.

      I’ve met folk on the doortstep and elsewhere who think we got NOTHING back from the EU at all. That ignorance is very largely the fault of the press. They failed in terms of lying by omission and lying by caricature. And who was caricaturist in chief? One Boris Johnson.

    26. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Muscleguy @ 10,32am

      I prefer the Tom Nairn quote: “Scotland will be free, when the last minister is strangled with the last copy of the Sunday Post.”

      Tom is nearly 90 now, so, he might still see his prophesy come true.

      Certainly the Sunday Post is but a shadow of what it once was, as are most of the other traditional Scottish Tory papers – be the be blue, red or yellow Tories.

    27. Fireproofjim says:

      Muscleguy
      My memory of the old saw is that Scotland would be free when the last minister was choked with the last copy of the Sunday Post. Might soon be difficult to find a copy of the Post to do it with.
      I can never understand how the tax dodging owners of the rotten rags are so stupid that they ignore or antagonise more than 50% of their potential readership.

    28. Socrates MacSporran says:

      DAisy Walker @ 11.31 am

      Bad news might not sell newspapers, but, as we discovered on one of the Dailies on which I worked, writing bad news is definitely easier.

      Our Editor decided we would print a “Good News Edition” one day. The crime reporter was in the midst of covering a gang war which had made our patch the murder capital of Scotland; the Court Reporter was snowed under with juicy grim stories and I as the Sports Department was covering a local senior team who even struggled to win a corner, far less a game.

      It was really grim trying to find good news stories. Doom and gloom is far easier.

    29. lothianlad says:

      Davy Smith says:

      21 May, 2020 at 11:31 am

      Why is the SG subsidising it’s enemies..?

      The Truth is Davy the SG are mere administrators of Devolution and the SNP ( with some notable exceptions ) Have become a Unionist party!

      Strange times indeed!!

    30. Chic says:

      That surely sends a very bad message to advertisers. Henceforth the reach your ad gets will be what we tell you it gets, you can’t verify that.
      Know what I’d do.

    31. Davie says:

      The Scottish Govt should stop providing FOI’s to journalists.
      Let them see how transparency works then.

    32. Proud Cybernat says:

      They’ll still have to provide the figures to the BBC who fund some of their hacks. The BBC and UKGov will want to see its getting value for its ‘investment’ – which they won’t be getting. Because fewer and fewer read their propaganda sheets. The point of diminishing returns has probably already come and gone and it won’t be too long now when they finally realise the game is up, that there is little point in funding propaganda sheets if very few are actually buying their propaganda. When they lie, twist and distort the truth, you cannot unsee that.

      They brought it on themselves and hell slap it intae them.

    33. lothianlad says:

      Subsidising Unionist rags, asking for extra funding for the BBC, the disgusting, shameful way the have treated one of our greatest leaders, the attempted silencing of Pro independence bloggers and the in action of the largest mandates given to any political party, makes the current SNP SG betrayers!

      Wake up and smell the coffee, The SNP have become the obstacle to Independence. They morphed into new labour once Alex reigned.

    34. Bipod says:

      I see that thousands of people are starting to lose their jobs, and that the furlough scheme is basically just suspended unemployment. Whatever happened to we will easily bounce back and none of the damage was permanent. I also see that they are already starting to shift the goalposts again, apparently the second “wave” will arrive in winter because not enough people have had it this time around. mass house arrest could become a regular response to the winter flu outbreaks because it’s a “public health emergency”.

    35. Proud Cybernat says:

      Nicola Sturgeon requested a Section 30 order from UKGov.

      Johnson refused.

      Yet some “The SNP have become the obstacle to Independence.”

      Aye, very good.

    36. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      We are not publishing our shameful circulation figures because people are laughing at us.

      That’s it basically now if I were an advertiser I would be very wary of spending any money with newspapers.

      Unionist newspapers spouting unionist propaganda at the direction of the very rich men who own the papers, not to make a profit but to gain influence.

      The paper owners mostly don’t live and pay taxes here but they are happy to spout lies and propaganda again half of the population and they are surprised that no one is buying their rubbish.

      Her Royal majesty’s government will ensure the survival of the papers as they need the propaganda to go out to the old and the daft who buy such titles as the Express and the Mail, other rubbish titles are of course available.

      All I can say to the newspaper proprietors is Ha ha ha GIRFUY.

    37. Vestas says:

      Proud Cybernat says:
      21 May, 2020 at 12:05 pm

      “Nicola Sturgeon requested a Section 30 order from UKGov.

      Johnson refused.”

      When exactly did this formal request occur?

      Here’s a clue – IT DIDN’T HAPPEN.

      Nor will it with the current SNP leadership.

    38. Effijy says:

      Again SNP aiming their smoking gun at their feet.

      We have zero number of newspapers in Scotland
      with an unbiased view or one that represents the views
      Of the majority.

      I recall all 37 UK newspapers were against Scottish Independance
      Although the polls at the time had it 50/50.

      Non Dom Non UK tax payer owners.
      Propaganda their main focus
      Phone hackers
      The truth, the hole for truth and nothing like the truth is published.

      Where is the Tory chant of market forces rule and
      People voting with their feet.

      The public don’t want them as they are an embarrassment in the
      Skewed garbage the print.

      All that a reliable source close to who wishes to remain anonymous
      let’s us print this pile of shite for just a few of your pennies.

      I used to buy and read multiple newspapers but haven’t touched one in years.

      There they go giving you transparency on the things that suit them when it suits their own agenda.

      The Scotsman has more pages than readers and only exist thru Dark Money.

    39. Effijy says:

      Proud Cybernat that is a good point.

      If the Press sales Stats have to be for the BBC
      Shouldn’t we be able to insist the National Broadcaster
      that we pay for reveals the figures and how much revenue
      We as tax payers are sending fascists non tax payers?

    40. Ottomanboi says:

      How others see it:
      https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/05/19/nicola-sturgeon-is-turning-into-a-demagogue/
      There is an element of ranting, Knoxian authoritarianism among many devotees of the Big Nannie, sadly so in tune with the febrile spirit of the times.
      If you wish to destroy a cause you infiltrate it with crusading wokistas.
      Scotland on double suppressive lockdown.

    41. Andrew F says:

      The last line of the linked article says:

      “The newspapers opting to take their data private will be named on the ABC website at midday.”

      So I just went and checked. Can’t find it on “abc.org.uk/recent-updates” – unless someone else can decipher the information….?

      Is it there? If so, what’s the bet they ALL decide to hide the data!

    42. Ahundredthidiot says:

      They’re not dead, all you have to do is a google search for anything to see they are alive and well, no alternative news permitted.

    43. Proud Cybernat says:

      “When exactly did this formal request occur? Here’s a clue – IT DIDN’T HAPPEN.”

      I must’ve dreamt this then:

      http://archive.is/TS6AJ

    44. Bob Mack says:

      @Proud Cybernat,

      No doubt you wil! be told you’ve had a “Bobby Ewing” in the Dallas shower moment

    45. Vestas says:

      Where’s the document in the ScotGov online archives?

      Thats a newspaper report from a paper I don’t trust.

    46. Republicofscotland says:

      “Ron Maclean says:
      21 May, 2020 at 11:07 am
      From @KateForbesMSP

      ‘We have already agreed a £3m package with the Scottish Newspaper Society, on top of the £440,000 package for local papers. That means Scottish papers only ones to get double support from UK & Scot Govs. Many ‘local papers’ already get 100% relief through the Small Business Bonus.’

      Words fail me.”

      Yes indeed Ron, just why are the SNP to help fund unionist rags that put down independence at every turn.

      Could it be they need these rags to help maintain the status quo? There’s an abundance of gatekeepers in Holyrood and the SNP.

    47. dramfineday says:

      “But following industry representations”. Forgive my ignorance, but too whom? And did that party really have the authority to agree it?

      I’m with Stoker @11.20 on this. Can you imagine the furor if the SG tried a stunt like that on some of their regular statistic lines? No way.

      Some parties need to have a little rethink. We pay the subsidy, we get to see the stats, nothing else will do in the interests of open government and integrity.

    48. Josef Ó Luain says:

      No one valuing or seeking meaningful analysis ever went near the Brit mass-media to access such a commodity.

    49. Proud Cybernat says:

      “Thats a newspaper report from a paper I don’t trust.”

      That’ll be why Johnson responded to the FM’s formal request by refusing to agree. Maybe this paper is more to your liking:

      http://archive.is/VfUA1

      You are certainly entitled to your own opinion but you’re not entitled to your own facts. Claiming “IT DIDN’T HAPPEN” is a blatant untruth – unless you subscribe to the tinfoil hat fraternity.

    50. Dogbiscuit says:

      SNP are idiots and or scum buckets for financing anti Scottish media propaganda with taxpayers money.They are taking the piss.Bogus Scottish journalists are the lowest form of human life.

    51. Effijy says:

      No criminal action to be taken against Boris fir his
      Criminal and intimate relationship with the American
      Business woman Jennifer Acurie.

      There’s a surprise, Not.

      Never heard about the complaint against Boris for
      Touching up two women sitting at the table with him.

      His guilt in both is pretty obvious with his track record but
      Quite quickly covered up.

      When didn’t the use the Police let’s get Alex Salmond team
      Who would happily spend two years trying to create evidence?

      We are all in it together? Don’t think so.

    52. jfngw says:

      Tories ‘this is not the time to play politics’, ‘we demand the health secretary resign’.

      Ever since the 54% opinion poll and the comparative performance figures between NS and BJ the MSM has gone into hyperdrive. They have even launched their exocet mouth Ruth Davidson, brought out from the parenting bunker for the event.

      So if it’s back to normal politicking it’s time to get independence back on the table, it should never have been removed.

    53. Dogbiscuit says:

      Nicola Sturgeon is pissed in the wee bit of power she thinks she has.

    54. mark says:

      All rather galling, that we, the scottish taxpayer are subsidising failing business,one’s that troll us on a daily basis.

    55. Millennium says:

      Proud Cybernat 1.16pm

      What do you suggest we do???

      Just sit and wait for the man from Del Monte to say Yes???

      Johnson has made it clear, Scotland will NOT be granted a Section 30 order.

      Your move Cybernat.

    56. Millennium says:

      Another one of Sturgeon’s Indy plans was that she would call indyRef2 once the Polls were showing a constant support of over 60% for three months in a row (it something like that)

      That was when the Polls were stuck on 45%.

      She knew that would NEVER happen.

      Especially when she had no intention of Campaigning for it.

      Infact, she had no intention of even mentioning the “I” word.

      We have Scottish elections next year, we are falling out of the EU in six months,,,with no deal,,,and STILL Sturgeon refuses to even discuss Scottish Independence.

      After that their is the real possibility Boris could shut down Holyrood.

      So if now is not the time to at least discuss indyRef2, then I don’t know when is.

      The truth is she isn’t interested in Scottish Independence.

    57. John Thomson says:

      Why oh why, do Scot Gov support these

    58. jfngw says:

      @millenuim

      We are already out of the EU all that is happening now is they are trying to negotiate a trading deal, it is merely a grace period. Not sure the UK gov actually is seeing some of the nonsense in their proposals. We can’t cancel it now, all they could do is ask to rejoin.

      Of course the statement of ‘when we know the consequences of Brexit’ (or words to that effect) is a never-ending timescale as it coukd take years to work out what the consequences are.

    59. Graeme says:

      Pete Wishart tweeted a while ago when a poll put SNP support up to 54% “We must be doing something right” on the surface a reasonable assumption, the problem is they’ve had to abandon their principles to win that extra support shitting on their core supporters in the process, the very people who put them where they are today.So independence is off the table, not because they don’t believe in it anymore, but because they’ve discovered something they like better….Power

      It’s a battle between principle and power and for Pete Wishart and co it’s all about the power, fuck the principles, principles are hard work, they don’t have to keep their word to us they know they can bank on our vote because we have nobody else to vote for, it might be looking good for them now but that wont last.

      Sooner or later the core supporters will look elsewhere and dwindle away and if they can’t find a party to represent them they’ll create one and the SNP will be finished, it wont happen overnight but it will happen

      It’s happened before, Tony Blair did the same thing with the Labour party initially giving them spectacular success it even won them a General Election, but look at them now, power corrupts, and corruption will destroy the SNP just as it did with the Labour Party

    60. CameronB Brodie says:

      Brexit is incompatible with human rights law and British constitutional practice is happy with that. That’s because Westminster is a racist patriarchy that rejects the international rule-of-law (see Brexit). The Scottish government is only allowed to operate with the parameters of this outdated legal order. Scotland needs better from the law.

      Covid-19 hurts the vulnerable most. So does Brexit
      https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2020/03/30/covid-19-hurts-the-vulnerable-most-so-does-brexit/

    61. Stoker says:

      shug wrote on 21 May, 2020 at 10:37 am:

      “At some point you might think the editorial board might think a change of tack would be required. It is astonishing that the Boards of Directors are not driving the management team to provide a paper aligned to reader requirements.”

      They don’t need to, shug, they’re owned by billionaires with strong links to Westminster and for as long as they’re getting sweeteners/favours from their friends in the HoC &/or the HoL they will not give a rats erse if they lose one of their rags.

      EG: Look just how easy it was for its owner to ditch the most popular rag going at the time ‘The News of the World’. He could have pulled in favours and kept it in circulation but no, he dumped it just like that without so much as batting an eyelid.

      These rags are just nasty evil toys for their owners but they wreck a lot of lives. And when the mega-rich owners get fed up with their toys, like the proverbial spoilt brat, they neglect them then discard them without a care in the world. And already rich beyond belief they’re promised more riches & titles galore.

    62. Gary45% says:

      You don’t even need Johnsons “common sense” to work out when you start to hide fact and figures, they are obviously too pathetic and embarrassing.
      Then again, Churnalism is the curse of society.
      Hell mend them, I shed no tears.

    63. PacMan says:

      Newspapers are on display using at the entrance of most shops. People come in and just pick them up to browse through them to kill some time as well as having a read of them but not paying for the privilege. As a result, they are a major source of infection.

      As the current lock down gets gradually lifted and a bit of normality occurs, every one of us is going to have to look at our behaviours to ensure future outbreaks isn’t going to occur. One of these steps may be to temporarily stop the sale of newspapers and other types of publications or have them stored so people can’t go in to browse them.

    64. Capella says:

      Speaks volumes.

    65. robbo says:

      Paper sales fell when they got rid of page 3.

      Talking about boobies, has Jackson Carlaw owned up yet to having the ‘fallin madonna with the big boobies ‘ yet?

    66. Julia Gibb says:

      The BBC is subsidised to blast propaganda into our homes.
      The Newspaper industry is subsidised to blast propaganda headlines ( to be quoted by the BBC)
      Advertising channels have programmes on “British” and product placement Union Flags everywhere.
      You can’t shop in a supermarket without banks of Union Flags facing you.
      Every Charity/ NGO is run by Unionists to promote the Union.
      Every Year we are assaulted by another War event celebration.
      If by any chance a gap opens on the propaganda front the Royal Family is ready to step in.

      Stop buying Newspapers
      Stop paying for the BBC
      Do not remain in organisations like the National Trust for Scotland.
      When shopping ” If it has a Jack, put it back”. Do not by the products of Unionist companies.

      Make them feel the pain.

    67. Stoker says:

      fngw quoted on 21 May, 2020 at 1:21 pm:

      “Tories ‘this is not the time to play politics’, ‘we demand the health secretary resign’.”

      I take it you are talking about the Scottish branch office? Well, drop in to their office and tell them personally that we demand *all* their London masters resign. For today they have finally admitted that they “chose” not to test in care homes and they now deeply regret making that decision. 😉

    68. BLMac says:

      Has no one wondered why the Establishment newspaper proprietors are not worried about the profitability of their papers in Scotland?

      It’s because they are playing a bigger game. Nothing less than the possession of our country.

      Without Scotland in the Union, the Establishment is screwed. England may survive and thrive, but it will be new blood and commoners making the running in business.

    69. callmedave says:

      Track and trace contact system delays possible unnamed cabinet ministers say.

      Was due last week . Boris said yesterday 1st June now it’s soon.

      Anyhoo!

      Scotland………today…..37…….Total……2221…BBC
      Wales…………today…..09…….Total……1247…BBC
      N. Ireland…….today…..07…….Total…….501…BBC
      England……….today…*187…….Total….*25266…SUN
      =========================================================
      UK……………today….338…….Total…..36042…BBC

    70. Astonished says:

      Obviously WE must be winning.

      Boris escapes an ARCURI investigation. I think, and hope, this will come back to haunt those responsible.

    71. Dogbiscuit says:

      The SNP are fools if they think everyone’s vote is banked. If no other Independence Party to vote for I cannot vote for any party that locks its population up and thinks that’s OK. Our ‘health’ is being used as whitewash by Fascists.Simple.There is no party that did not hand our arses to the British Government without a debate or question in Westminster.Fuck them all. I don’t see the SNP as the way forward and as they were our political equivalent of a Heavy Brigade the Independence movement appears stopped in its tracks.

    72. Proud Cybernat says:

      “Johnson has made it clear, Scotland will NOT be granted a Section 30 order.”

      Scotland’s democratic rights don’t end with Johnson. Just because a husband refuses to agree to his wife’s demand for a divorce doesn’t mean she has lost the right to a divorce or that the divorce won’t happen. It simply means the husband is being a stubborn arse who can’t accept reality. He can refuse to agree to what’s happening around him but, ultimately, he will learn that he cannot hold his wife in a union that she wants no longer wishes to remain a part of. The divorce will happen but just in a slower, more protracted and probably antagonistic manner. But it WILL happen.

      It’ll be the same with Indy and the FM has already hinted at taking matters down the legal route. And just as soon as the decks are cleared with N-CV19 and the full Brexit calamity has descended upon us, she will press the issue.

      Fact is, no one can deny Nicola Sturgeon did not ask UKGov to agree to a 2nd IndyRef via S30 order. She most certainly did. And UKGov refused to agree to her request. So the issue of us not having an IndyRef at the moment is of Johnson’s making, not the FM’s. I personally think though that Johnson unwittingly did us a big favour with his refusing to agree to the FM’s request because had he agreed and the date was set, then it almost certainly would have to have been called off and deferred to another date because of the present circumstances. And UKGov might well have turned round and said “No – there will be no deferral. The date is fixed and we cannot change it. Use it or lose it.”

      Were IndyRef2 to have gone ahead in such circumstances then a certain win for YES would have become a much tighter race.

      My move?

      My move is patience.

    73. ahundredthidiot says:

      Prof Dolores Cahill on COVID19

    74. CameronB Brodie says:

      ahundredthidiot
      Unless you are able to point to an ethical body of law that supports your position re. public health, your contribution can’t be considered helpful. I’d also suggest you’re inner Tory is showing through. 😉

      The precautionary principle: in action for public health
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2092570/

    75. jfngw says:

      @ahundrethidiot

      I listened to the first 30 min with some Irish guy, first 10 seemed to be her telling us how clever she was. Had some issues with most will be immune due to Sars spreading round the world. That seemed a strange statement as I would assume Sars is slightly different from covid but obviously I don’t have the expertise to query this. But if this is true then presumably you are immune from the flu if you have had it once then, even if it is a slightly different strain.

      Anyway it is a bit pointless you believe the scientists you want to believe, you believe her I believe others. Trying to drum your position onto others seems to be relentless, you disagree with what is happening, I understand that. Every thread now contains those who believe this is a conspiracy but I still haven’t worked out what the conspiracy is.

    76. Sinky says:

      Great article in Scotsman by Sir Harry Burns on why the border should have been shut years ago to avoid UK government incompetence over coronavirus. http://archive.is/Ve4Oc

      On newspapers the National is up to 10,500 digital subscribers.

      At only £2 for two months its a bargain and we should make sure that the only independence supporting newspaper survives

      https://www.thenational.scot/

    77. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Joe posted this last night and Tinto Chiel reposted it, so if there is incoming as a result please distribute it fairly!

      😉

      (Has a lot of interesting facts about what the 77th Brigade is up to and its peculiar vetting processes.)

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjAoqx5OOFc&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop

    78. Colin Alexander says:

      Davy Smith said:
      21 May, 2020 at 11:31 am

      “Why is the SG subsidising it’s enemies..?”

      What makes you think they are enemies?

      The Scottish Government are the Empire’s colonial administrators and the media are the Empire’s propaganda machine.

    79. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      Ian, I’ve no doubt there is a lot about covid-19 that those in power are seeking to manipulate for the purpose of accumulating power. That said, we are not going to find an ethical solution if we abandon the “precautionary principle”. That’s largely why we have Brexit, as the Tories feel the precautionary principle simply held British business back from being exceptional.

      It isn’t possible to respect global health law without a legal respect for the precautionary principle, which Scotland will be separated from by Brexit.

      PUBLIC POLICIES GUIDED BY THE
      PRECAUTIONARY PRINCIPLE

      https://www.ncchpp.ca/docs/VBeloinAnC_MEP.pdf

    80. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @CamB –

      Just a reminder, in case you’d forgotten, that I said, quite clearly t’other night, that I wouldn’t be reading or responding to any more of your links.

      I wasn’t saying that for effect, so please ignore my posts and/or refer your links to others. I’m not interested.

      No hard feelings, but that’s the way it is.

      😉

    81. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      Your arse. ;(

    82. frogesque says:

      The Beano’s weekly circulation in April 1950 was 1,974,072;kind of makes you think eh?

    83. Gregor says:

      ROTTEN Fake News doesn’t do public transparency.

    84. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Ian Brotherhood 4.15: you absolute stinker, you! 🙂

      “Absolute shower!” he T-T’d.

    85. jfngw says:

      BBC pushing the advantage of the government spying app. They’ve no chance of me loading this app that is going to keep your data. I would have considered the google one once I was sure of its propriety.

    86. Sandy says:

      Carlaw is an evil barsteward. 2000 tracers trained in a couple of days. Were his mechanics similarly trained? No wonder he went bust *** twice.

    87. Corrado Mella says:

      I’ve investigated thoroughly and apparently there are facilities here in Scotland to work with materials at the most minute, atomic size.

      I’ll ask if they can manufacture the most minute violin to play a lament to mark the demise of the BritNazi press.

    88. Dogbiscuit says:

      To all wingers, is it true that anyone who questions covid orthodoxy will be treated as a terrorist under the law?If so why?Why no debate permissible? To my mind British and Scottish Governments and Media are the true Terrorists who frighten society with a virus that was downgraded before Governments granted themselves 350 pages of Police Emergency powers.350 pages of super quick convenience.Step up the Suckers.

    89. Capella says:

      Just 2 mins into the video and I’d like to point out that these figures are easily manipulated to prove whatever point you want to make.

      Were the excess deaths caused by covid-19 or comorbidities? Almost everyone has a pre-existing condition. But those conditions would not necessarily have killed you if you hadn’t contracted covid-19.

      If it isn’t covid-19 causing all these excess deaths, then what is?

      I know, I should listen to the rest of the video. But I’m already very sceptical.

    90. robert graham says:

      Smith of BBC Scotland on in the background anyone know what the fkr is bumping her gums about now , I notice the botanic gardens in the background with some eh locals being set up to play their part in the Probable Hatchet job , rather than keep their head down the hunts at Pacific Heights as usual are taking the Piss again,
      Maybe someone in the SNP will get off their arse and at least attempt some kind of retaliation .

    91. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Capella: maybe you should watch the whole thing, then.

      It got very interesting for me when 77 Brigade was examined.

      I wonder how many seasonal ‘flu deaths have been put down to Covid-19? We don’t seem to have heard much of SF deaths this spring.

    92. CameronB Brodie says:

      Tinto Chiel
      I’m certainly not looking to stifle debate and I’m certainly not claiming full knowledge of the level of threat there is to public health. Saying that, HMG’s hostility to the precautionary principle magnified a public health threat into a crises. Relaxing lock-down prematurely, simply isn’t rational. Though neither is British constitutional legal practice. Full text.

      Precautionary Principles in Constitutional Law
      https://academic.oup.com/jla/article/4/1/181/837098

    93. cirsium says:

      ‘a negative narrative of circulation decline’ – like the wording. It is good news that people are not buying these papers. What I don’t get is the Scottish government subsidising these pedlars of propaganda.

      @IanBrotherhood,4.15
      Many thanks for reposting this link Ian. It is interesting to see the place of Integrity Initiative in this web. Regarding sharing information, these two articles by Vanessa Beeley provide another slant on the COVID 19 situation https://www.ukcolumn.org/article/who-controls-british-government-response-covid19-part-one
      https://www.ukcolumn.org/article/covid–19-big-pharma-players-behind-uk-government-lockdown

    94. bipod says:

      Interesting interview with Professor Sunetra Gupta, an epidemiologist at Oxford University.

      https://tinyurl.com/y8oxm5kh

      She casts some doubt on the governments lockdown policy, and the notion of a “second wave”. I wonder what advice NS is listening to? She should publish the advice that she is recieving.

    95. Golfnut says:

      @ Sandy.
      It’s amazing, is it not, as soon as criticism arises over some aspect of the UK govs handling of the pandemic it is immediately transformed into an SNP baad accusation.
      Today it was training. Hancock claiming that extensive and meticulous training was given to all testers was refuted by the so called trained, they said that almost no training was given other than being told to watch a few YouTube videos.
      Wonder how Car crash new that was coming.

    96. gus1940 says:

      Re Boris and today’s spectacular volte face over NHS charges for immigrant health workers – what about those who have already paid these obscene charges – will they receive a refund?

    97. Breastplate says:

      Tinto,
      That made me smile. It’s a long time since I’ve seen a Terry Thomas movie.

    98. james mallon Drones Over Scotland says:

      I mind years ago when the papers were the rage for the young contractors (about 1980s).

      In the Mess Room (Longannet CMO team) my big mate took 2 off Daily Records and ripped each one up into neat piles. He cut out Adverts in one paper and news print in the other. He laid them down on the table.

      On both cut up Newspapers, including page one, which had a massive useless fkn misleading headline and photograph, and a 2 inch square of small meaningless news print, the rest of the cuttings were split into adverts and news.
      The news we noticed, was non-factual gossip (shite),the football section was ignored.
      Resultant factors,adverts were about 80% of the paper.There was a-non news bit for crossword and comic strips,and a bit with a lady with a bikini (page 3).

      Wee hung the cuttings in the toilets on top of the roll dispensers. This project took 15 mins.

      Sorry to bore, but who the fk takes newspapers seriously.
      In the 70s,80s the Daily Record was regarded a Labour Party workers rag, the SNP had evolved from the Scottish Tories called the Tartan Tories, no one I knew was interested in any of the fkrs but we despised the Tories.

      Then and now, any walk of life can morph into what it wants to be, manipulating people. The Press is now fkd, what media bstrds are going to take over.

      I used to uread Newspapers to get the information, I would think and act the opposite, I think this is called reading between the lines.
      Mr Trump would say Fake News (Bleach Breath). I call it Fk News.

    99. Capella says:

      @ Tinto Chiel – yes, you’re right. I will listen to the whole thing. I certainly believe that the 77th brigade are creating a great deal of confusion. It’s the Steve Bannon modus operandi.

      Glen Greenwald has an article about the evil CIA causing grief, death and havoc around the world. Why would Scotland be exempt?
      That I do believe.
      https://theintercept.com/2020/05/21/the-cias-murderous-practices-disinformation-campaigns-and-interference-in-other-countries-still-shapes-the-world-order-and-u-s-politics/

    100. Golfnut says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood.

      Hi, I’m about 3/4 through the video.
      Very, very worrying regards 77 Brigade, connections and duties which appear entirely directed at manipulating the public’s perception on behalf of the government, disrupting criticism of government over covid19, they appear to be in partnership with Twitter, Facebook etc. Also interesting comment regarding the Italian government now saying the number of deaths attributed to covid19 was overstated. I wasn’t aware the complaints from Italian MP’s had been taken on board.
      Thanks

    101. Millennium says:

      We have been screaming out for instant rebuttals from the SNP since 2012,,,and still the silence from them continues.

      Do the SNP not hear the same mince we hear?

      Ruth Davidson yesterday running down Scotland, unchallenged.

      Where was Blackford and Co?

      They were probably re counting their bank balances.

      They still can’t get away with the amount of money that is pouring into it for doing fuck all.

      Mugs R Uz.

    102. Millennium says:

      I see the President of the Flat Earth Society has re surfaced.

      Alright there Capella?

      Roll on indyRef2 eh,,,no hurry there,,, well you wouldn’t need to be, with your hero Sturgeon at the wheel.

    103. terence callachan says:

      The Scottish government is not the SNP
      Sure they control most matters
      With a little help

      Business subsidies because of the affect of covid19 on business would bee decided by committee
      Cross party committee

      £3, 400,000 split between 165 newspapers across Scotland works out at about twenty thousand quid each

      I would rather they got zilch
      We very one of them a britnat rag

      But the daily message from NS is that the Scottish governments response to covid19
      is not political

      There lies your answer

      Hey…Cameron. b Brodie … I don’t hate everything English like you say
      I don’t hate my gran or my cousin or Man U or the many places in England where I lived
      Trimley st Martin , Poole , Colchester etc all nice

      I do hate England’s control of Scotland
      Unlike you I say it is england that controls Scotland and works against Scotland
      It’s English voters that vote in MPs that denigrate Scotland
      You like WGD cannot being yourself to say that England is our enemy

      You say it’s british nationalists that are Scotland’s enemy

      People in England don’t consider themselves to be british nationalists
      Only you and a few other Scottish bloggers use that term over and over again

      English people living in Scotland consider themselves English not British nationalists

      Overseas non eu people living in Scotland consider themselves to be the nationality of the country where they were born , even when they get a british passport after living her for five years they only refer to themselves as British when they have to and never reefer to themselves or see themselves as British nationalists

      British nationalists is a fake term used by you and other bloggers in Scotland too faird to say English

      Quite happy to refer to EU people by their nationality but you’re faird to call English people English

      England’s a great country
      I like england
      I like English people

      I don’t like England’s treatment of Scotland
      I don’t like English peoples treatment of Scotland

      It s england that Scotland wants to break free from
      So English people no matter where on earth they live should NOT get a vote on the matter

    104. Breastplate says:

      Capella,
      Just to add to your link about the CIA

      Journalists for Hire: How the CIA Buys the News (Gekaufte Journalisten)
      Book by Udo Ulfkotte
      Dr. Udo Ulfkotte, a former editor for the German main daily newspaper, Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung (FAZ), has first hand knowledge of how the CIA and German Intelligence (BND) bribe journalists to write articles free of truth, facts, and with a decidedly pro-Western, pro-NATO bent or, in other words, propaganda…

      I’m not sure if it’s still the case but it used to be only available in German.

    105. dakk says:

      Watched the YouTube video earlier which Joe posted.

      Beyond Tobias Elwood, the military machinations have been apparent in the skies above us for some time.

      The airbus n400 grizzly endlessly circling glasgow and it environs during ‘training’ exercises recently was more evidence of that.

    106. bipod says:

      I wonder how nicola sturgeon came up with her 4 phase plan, probably written on the back of a fag packet, is there anyone in the Scottish government who cares about the consequences of the lockdown? She plans on allowing shops and other venues to reopen in August with some conditions, but she can’t possible justify waiting that long, especially when the science around the lockdown is still undecided. Its as if she wants to string this out as long as possible.

      A quote from the professor in the link I posted above “We might have done better by doing nothing at all, or at least by doing something different”

      The science on which the lockdown was original based, professor neil ferguson work, has already been widely trashed as it vastly overstated the number of potential deaths.

      But nicola sturgeon and the other lockdown fanatics in the government, media and terrified public still insist that the lockdown is correct and that anyone who questions it must be some sort of conspiracy theorist.

      I’m sure nicola will stick to her ridiculous 4 phase timetable, because deviating from it and lifting the lockdown earlier than she expects would involve admitting that she is wrong and that they did and have wildly overreacted to this “crisis”.

    107. robert graham says:

      Are yah clapping then ?

    108. CameronB Brodie says:

      terence callachan
      I can accept I’m perhaps being a bit critical of how you’ve expressed your political opinions in the past.

    109. robbo says:

      Tinto Chiel says:
      21 May, 2020 at 6:36 pm
      @Capella: maybe you should watch the whole thing, then.

      It got very interesting for me when 77 Brigade was examined.

      I wonder how many seasonal ‘flu deaths have been put down to Covid-19? We don’t seem to have heard much of SF deaths this spring.

      ——————

      That’s cause seasonal flu is Nov-Feb maybe?

      It’s a respiratory disease similar to a cold.

      Not being funny but thought I’d post a link to what flu is just as a wee guide.It’s seems a lot of people on here seem to be over the age of 18 years and considered an adult-tho i hay ma doots about some lol.

      https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/flu/

      Corona virus is not flu and in most cases doesn’t put hundreds of thousands of people on ventilators,has doctors and nurses wearing full protective gear, doctors and nurses dying.

      So what would you rather have?

      1) A dose of the flu,or even pleurisy

      or
      2) A dose of the covid 19

    110. Bob Mack says:

      Yeah I’m clapping for the hundreds of Health care workers who have lost their lives. They deserve that at least.Never known so many (vaccinated against flu) workers to die.

    111. bipod says:

      Flu season is not Nov-Feb it is normally between Dec-Mar but has been known to happen as late as May. Flu seasons do regularly kill thousands of people in this country and I am sure the NHS does try to take precautions during those events to prevent it spreading in hospitals. Its just we normally don’t bat an eyelid and we don’t instigate devasting lockdowns.

      Covid 19 has not put hundreds of thousands of people on ventilators, the NHS didn’t need any of the extra ICU capacity that was made available. NHS Lousia Jordan didn’t treat a single patient.

      According to recent statistics Covid 19 is about as deadly as the the flu, but the risk increases with age. Not unexpected with pneumonia the “the old man’s friend”.

    112. CameronB Brodie says:

      The current drop of Tories certainly appear morally incompetent and supportive of social Darwinism. They also appear happy to lead us into a new age of eugenics, a.k.a. government through FORCE.

      The Idea of Precaution: Ethical Requirements for the Regulation of New Biotechnologies in the Environmental Field
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6308202/

    113. Tinto Chiel says:

      @robbo: seasonal ‘flu is normally calculated up to April, I believe.

      I don’t want to catch anything: I’ve had pneumonia twice and been hospitalised. Covid-19 seems a particular danger to people in their late seventies, however.

      I’ve never had ‘flu but took the vaccine the last two years because of my history. I still haven’t had ‘flu but am not sure of the vaccine’s role in that.

    114. They did the same with A&E waiting time figures,

      Scottish Gov was bashed on the head by having slightly higher waiting times than England,

      Scottish NHS with help from Scottish Gov cut the waiting time figures while the England NHS with no help from UK Gov foung their figures nosedive,

      two ways to fix it,

      better fund the English A&E or stop publishing A&E figures,

      guess what UK Gov done/did.

      And obviously never to be mentioned by our corrupted and hopeless MSM.

    115. CameronB Brodie says:

      If you want to understand the source of this crises, I suggest you look to how the Tories responded to their legal obligation to respect public health and the rights of future generations.

      Remember, civil law protection from maladministration does not apply to Scotland (see Brexit).

      Chapitre 2. Precautionary principle and civil law.
      https://europepmc.org/article/med/29561109

    116. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Breastplate 7.08: indeed. Left something for you on Off Topic.

    117. Dogbiscuit says:

      I watched the U.K. Column News article covering 77 Brigade and some of its mid level officer appointments are interesting.From private to Lieutenant Colonel in three years? They seem to be shaping the emotional, intellectual battlefield. Psychological warfare waged against the public through media and internet. Any serving professional soldier should feel dishonoured to spy on his own people his or her kith and kin. My Grandfather fought in two wars for this country not for us to hand it over to jumped up little tyrants like Sturgeon and Johnson.First Ministers plans regarding lockdown are insane.Is she in the real world at all or in her Feuhrer Bunker?A wee day oot to Portobello would be good for her.

    118. Chris Downie says:

      Until the SNP heirarchy has been gutted, independence is going nowhere, but it’s sad that there are still so many SNP happy clappers who refuse to acknowledge that the movement has stalled since 2015. Despite being no closer to independence – or even a second referendum – since 2015, some are downright abusive, no matter how constructive you try to be in your criticisms of the strategy and/or motivations of “oor Nicola” and co.

      For all the finger pointing at Sturgeon and Murrell however, they are only part of the problem, as they have surrounded themselves with like-minded chancers and careerists. The likes of Smith and Blackford should be consigned to being snake oil salesmen, with Wishart going back to peddling third-rate teuchter emo pop and Black reverting to being a potty-mouthed NED screaming abuse at “TERFs” on street corners.

    119. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      For those with an interest in the newspaper circulations…

      Newspaper accounts, where the owners are limited, plc or llp require to be filed at Companies House.

      https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/companies-house

      Reading balance sheets and profit/loss accounts can be a bit like water divining with a limp twig over a wet Ouija board whilst blindfolded and hoping a ghost gives you the real numbers.

      Especially when the newspaper company employs a “creative” accountant.

      However, there comes a point where the fig leaf of going ex-directory at ABC circulation will be akin to having a microscopic four leaf clover cover the 8 inch scholng of one of these trans men-to-women perverts who enjoy sharing changing rooms with young girls at the local swimming pool. In both situations a dangerous predator is doing evil things whilst being protected by those in power.

      Is it okay to laugh out loud when these poisonous gossip rags go bankrupt and the shittty little creeps such as Hutcheon, Leask and their ilk end up on Universal Credit.

    120. Graeme says:

      Well said Chris spot on
      The reason they get abusive and angry is because their consumed with guilt and they know your right

    121. robbo says:

      bipod says:
      21 May, 2020 at 8:18 pm

      You didn’t answer . Just gave a different view.

      Would you rather have flu than covid?

      NHS Louisa Jordan didn’t treat a single patient.

      Yes and thank goodness for that.Louisa Jordan was built as a precious protection if NHS became overwhelmed .Any sensible government would do the same again. If they didn’t build one you would have complained about that.

      According to what fecking statistics that covid is same as flu.Does that make it right that in the year 2020 we just say

      Acht disnae matter it’ll only kill same number as flu, let them die . Away back wae REES-MOOG to the 1700’s ffs.

    122. Mist001 says:

      By her own admission, Mrs. Murrell has publicly said that the Scottish governement have been in lockstep with the UK government in dealing with this Coronavirus.

      It’s become quite clear to almost everyone apart from the Tory party that the UK government has mishandled the situation extremely badly.

      Mrs. Murrell and the Scottish government have been doing almost exactly the same as the UK government except maybe a week or two later.

      So if the UK government has fucked up the handling of the Coronavirus outbreak then quite obviously, the Scottish government has too, since they’ve been in lockstep.

      So, why the fuck is everyone going on about how great a job Mrs. Murrell has been doing?

    123. Bob Mack says:

      @Mist,

      Whose advice do we take to deal with a pandemic then? Nicola Sturgeon or the doctors ?

      It’s a bit like asking a joiner to rebuild your Mercedes engine.

    124. Capella says:

      @ Tinto Chiel (IanB) So I watched all of it.
      The information about the 77th Brigade is interesting. Since Carol Cadwalladr revealed a great deal through the whistleblowers on VOTE LEAVE and BREXIT it’s been obvious that a lot of dark manipulation is going on an has been for years. The effects in Scotland have still to be investigated but for sure they have been busy from their derelict mill in Fife.

      But we did know about that already.

      RE the University of Cambridge going online. That has been talked about for over 20 years. At the end of the digital day, University is a BRAND. Do you want to get your degree from Oxford, Harvard, Edinburgh, Princeton etc etc. The Library, research facilities, lectures, tutorials have all been available online for over 20 years. Face to face student/tutor exchange can be done through summer schools and evening classes. The Open University started off on TV in the 70s. There’s nothing necessarily sinister about that. It could be argued that it is more egalitarian and accessible.

      Are we at war with China? Yes. Also Russia and Iran and Venezuela. It’s about oil. See John Pilger’s videos on the subject.

      What’s it all got to do with covid-19? I don’t think they made that clear apart from some vague notion that the death rates are from something else, unspecified.

      I’m convinced that there is a conspiracy. It’s to allow herd immunity aka survival of the fittest aka social darwinism, to carry off the bulk of the old, the sick, the disabled the poor and the homeless misfits who are economically irrelevant to private capital. In fact they are a drain. It’s called Tory Party policy.

      Captain Burridge’s pal who researches well being as an alternative policy goal to the profit motive may well be the sanest person in the video! You may recall both Nicola Sturgeon’s TED talk on well being and Jacinda Ardern’s policy direction centred on well being. What is wrong with that?

      I think they are doing important work digging up all the facts. Their narrative is a bit unclear.

    125. robbo says:

      Tinto Chiel says:
      21 May, 2020 at 8:27 pm
      @robbo: seasonal ‘flu is normally calculated up to April, I believe.

      Neither do I want to catch it. I have lupus and APS , and partial COPD , so a dose of covid would most likely put me out of my misery 50-50 at best.

      Does ma box in people just brushing this aside like a skint knee.
      We not enough of this beastie yet, so preventative lockdown over herd mentality for ME any day.

    126. robbo says:

      Mist001 says:
      21 May, 2020 at 8:55 pm

      Acht

      Away you go and get a haircut! (smiley thing)

    127. Tinto Chiel says:

      @jfngw: thanks for those reports. Still reading through them.

      My question was, “I wonder how many seasonal ‘flu deaths have been put down to Covid-19?”

      You do hear of doctors claiming pressure is put on them to register certain aged deaths in particular as Covid-19 deaths. Is testing being carried out to ascertain the actual cause of death?

    128. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Does ma box in people just brushing this aside like a skint knee.
      We not enough of this beastie yet, so preventative lockdown over herd mentality for ME any day.”

      I’m hardly doing that, robbo. I’m asking about ‘flu statistics and to what extent doctors are distinguishing between deaths from the former with deaths from Covid.

      @Capella: well, as someone not as well-versed in these 77 Brigade matters as you, is it ok to say I enjoyed it, and was rather alarmed by bits of it?

    129. Joe says:

      https://www.centerforhealthsecurity.org/event201/scenario.html

      Event 201. In Oct 2019 a hypothetical scenario was played out regarding a pandemic caused by the transmission of a coronavirus from bat to pig to people. Involved parties included World Economic Forum and the Bill&Melinda gates foundation.

    130. bipod says:

      Considering that 4 out of 5 people who catch it are asymptomatic I may have already had it.

      I am more than happy to go back to my normal life with the risk that I might catch it. Anyone who isn’t prepared to take that risk should self isolate themselves so that they don’t catch it, we shouldn’t place every body under house arrest.

      Do you think that we should have a lockdown every flu season? Do you know conquences of lockdown, its not as simple as lifes vs the economy.

      Another interesting quote from Professor Sunetra “Different countries have had different lockdown policies, and yet what we’ve observed is almost a uniform pattern of behaviour”, suggesting that the lockdown might not have been preventative in any way.

    131. jfngw says:

      @Tinto Cheil

      How could anyone answer that, but it’s quite clear the flu peak was in Dec 2019, but if some don’t believe the graphs then it is irrelevant.

      What you can see from the graphs that cover the last few years is that there is a massive death spike from March 2020, much larger than any other year.

      Someone told me to watch a youtube video on an earlier thread, I watched part of it, this expert says ‘if we had locked away those susceptible to the virus then nobody would have died’. That’s the equivalent of me saying if I knew the Sat lottery numbers I would be a millionaire.

    132. Tinto Chiel says:

      jfngw @ 9.28: “How could anyone answer that?”

      Well, that was the question I was asking.So we don’t really know if or how many ‘flu deaths have been lumped in with Covid deaths?

      It wasn’t a trick question.

    133. jfngw says:

      @bipod

      Superdrug are selling a testing kit if you really want to know if you’ve had it. Only £69.

      No country has really had a lockdown policy, the UK one still allows you to go out. If it was possible to truly have a complete lockdown the spread should have stopped within a couple of weeks. Unfortunately people need to eat and some work. Unless you are disputing the virus is person to person spread.

      If the lockdown had no effect your really going to have to explain the difference in death rates between Norway an Sweden, one had basically a voluntary lockdown.

    134. Mist001 says:

      @ Bob Mack

      No. Health was, we were told, a devolved matter to Scotland. It’s since transpired that that’s not actually the case.

      The advice and experience was pouring in from Europe but instead of taking control of health and listening to what was coming in from Europe and being guided by that, Mrs. Murrell allowed Westminster to dictate health policy to Scotland by following them in lockstep.

      The Westminster policies have since been seriously discredited and the UK government has come under severe and fully deserved criticism. It follows therefore that Mrs. Murrell and the Scottish governments handling of the crisis should also face the same criticisms.

    135. Joe says:

      Ive come accross PR company/intel guys before. Jfngw – your contributions to comments on covid-19 are of a very similar style. Just saying.

    136. jfngw says:

      @Joe

      Your contributions look like a troll, just saying.

      Sadly for you I’ve been commenting on here for a number of years, I can’t believe we can say the same about you. Maybe I’m a sleeper, that’s the normal conspiracy theorist conclusion I think.

      Sorry but I was an engineer before I retired.

    137. Pete says:

      Professor Giesecke of Sweden reckons that all lockdown does is postpone what’s going to happen anyway. You could argue, and this was the initial reason given,that it would give the NHS time to prepare.
      That happened and we now have massive over-capacity.
      Surely, the right policy now is to get back to normal, tell folks to be vigilant and let’s just start to enjoy life.
      I am becoming very worried by the number of people who seem to be totally controlled by this virus and are living like robots.
      You see it at the orderly queues outside supermarkets, the wearing of masks, the sidestepping away from other humans and, worryingly, the desire of parents to keep their children off school.
      What kind of people are we?
      I always thought Scots were an independent race but the ease by which the majority of us are being controlled is very scary.

    138. CameronB Brodie says:

      Bottom line to the cause of this UKOKplc. health crises, is the Tories are ideologically opposed to the principles of universality, equality in law, public health ethics and the precautionary principle. Now they think they can inflict Brexit in Scotland. That’s how far up itself right-wing English culture has become.

    139. Bob Mack says:

      @Mist,

      The problem with Covid was the rapid onset, and yes weeks is a rapid onset. To initiate testing takes several major steps. Do you have a reliable test?
      Do you have the labs and staff to perform those tests?
      Do you have the means in terms of samplers and venues to mass test?

      Evidently the answer to these questions was No. What then ?

      You lock down the population best you can can till you have these things in place. That’s exactly what happened in the UK.

      Scotland’s public health infrastructure was no better prepared than England to deal with an urgent pandemic

      Other European countries ‘ran the same scenario in exercises and acted on the outcomes. The UK did not. Scotland with only benefits of consequential could never outlay the cash to prepare for a pandemic on its own

    140. Bob Mack says:

      @Pete,

      There are guys in Northern Territory of Australia who tell you it’s safe to swim with saltwater crocodiles provided you are careful and quiet. Possibly they are like you, correct.

    141. jfngw says:

      @Pete

      I don’t believe there was any other claim than it would reduce the peaks, it was never punted as a cure, not even by the incompetents at Westminster.

      You either need to hope for a vaccine or it not being as virulent as is claimed.

      No politician is going to go for the free for all (well maybe Johnson and Trump could) because if they are wrong and the death rate is massive they will be culpable.

    142. Dogbiscuit says:

      ‘Lockdown’ is ‘herd mentality’.

    143. CameronB Brodie says:

      Once this is all over, you’ll probably find the highest death rates occurred under the most right-wing and authoritarian of governments. Just saying. 😉

      COVID-19 in Brazil: “So what?”
      https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31095-3/fulltext

    144. Dogbiscuit says:

      Bob Mack, all flus have a ‘rapid onset’ phase surely? And don’t ‘rapid onset ‘ make effective political buzz words designed to grip the emotions like much of the insanely emotive arguments for house arrest.

    145. Dogbiscuit says:

      So Capella,we keep voting SNP and we’ll find Nicola Sturgeon has a plan up her Merkel sleeve and everything will be alright and we’ll carry on voting and Nicola will carry on promising and and and?

    146. Dogbiscuit says:

      jfngw, waiting for a vaccine?Are you out of your mind?How long will that bloody well take?Jesus fucking Christ man.

    147. Dogbiscuit says:

      Nicola Sturgeon and her supporters are a cult like shower of fanatical SJWs and climate alarmists.Their agenda will impoverish the West. It will lead to lower standards of living.The list of school girl demands presented to us by Greta Thunderbox is a propaganda ‘work’.She’s a distraction from the fact that there is much more dubiety and contention in Climate Science than is presented in the media .Its another example of the media being fully on board with and push a political narrative on Climate that I think is thoroughly dishonest and in fact a tax gathering racket. Also the girl does not have an argument only self righteous indignation and a certain Jack Elam look which scares the weans.

    148. Sinky says:

      Can Scottish government not find someone with a Scottish accent to do the audio on their video outlining the 4 stage voming out of lockdown process

    149. Capella says:

      @ Tinto Chiel – of course we should all enjoy the search for truth. It’s good that people are asking the questions.

      RE flu deaths – Covid-19 isn’t flu. It’s a different virus and it’s more infectious than flu. It also appears to have 10 times the death rate.

      Are GPs told to register deaths as Covid-19? I’ve actually read the opposite i.e. to keep numbers in England down they are told to register anything but Covid-19. However, the number of excess deaths are evidence that there is an infection that is killing large numbers of people. It isn’t flu. The lockdown is suppressing all infections, including flu.

      See Euromono graphs and maps. Scroll down to see that England has a very high z number for excess deaths. The z score is explained in the text.
      https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps/

    150. Ian Brotherhood says:

      By way of an informative ‘intermission’:

      🙂

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yfEglM3nek

    151. bipod says:

      Covid 19 is not 10 times deadlier than the flu. That was the scare story trotted out at the start of this, and was the assumption used in professor neil fergusons model which is now discredited. The risk of the virus increases with age, those past their 80s have do a high chance of dying (as you would also expect with also with the flu and pneumonia), but children under the age of 14 have about as much chance of being hit and killed by lighning as they do of dying from the coronavirus.

      As for the the registration of covid deaths section 1 of this article has a nice summary.

      https://architectsforsocialhousing.co.uk/2020/05/12/the-state-of-emergency-as-paradigm-of-government-coronavirus-legislation-implementation-and-enforcement/

      No test is required, simply a suspicion. As for the excess deaths you shouldn’t discount the deaths that are being caused by the lockdown. The ONS reckon that up to 30% of the excess deaths are non covid related.

    152. Colin Alexander says:

      Craig Murray has posted a new article regarding the charges he faces.

      He also wants people to sign up to virtual public viewing of the case.

      See here: http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/

    153. Capella says:

      RE deaths caused by the lockdown. How? Are you saying that staying in your house for 5 weeks, apart from daily exercise and food/medicine shopping, is fatal? How?

    154. McDuff says:

      Sinky.
      Yeh that`s what is happening to our country.
      Television, radio, insurance companies, phone companies, credit card companies the voice at self service check out at supermarkets, in-store radio, etc ,etc,,etc etc, all English accents.
      Its all about Anglifying Scotland, brainwashing us into thinking our accent is course and backward, and this and more is happening while the proud Scots are fast asleep.

    155. CameronB Brodie says:

      Talking about how we develop an understanding of science, like flyping, I might have mentioned “epistemology” is a good Scottish invention.

      COVID-19: on the epistemic condition

      Indigenous cosmologies have always argued that we must treat the world as an interconnected, living organism with supreme complexity, fragile resilience and indeed mystique.

      https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/can-europe-make-it/covid-19-epistemic-condition/

    156. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      Pete = Dominic Cummings.

      Johan Giesecke = Angel of Death.

      What utter dangerous pish some trolls spout.

      Does PishyPete even read this WoS website?

      Probably the best answer to the 77th Brigade Commander In Pish is the the haunting work by Chris Cairns…

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/img446.jpg

      The Josephe Mengele wannabe is as batshit crazy as the Covid infested bats for sale in Wuhan last December.

      Would anyone support the sacrificing of their mother, father or disabled family members because there are not enough ventilators? Just because the NHS DID manage to cope is no guarantee this won’t happen again, but 100 times worse. PishyPete using hindsight to say: unlock all the doors, infect everyone and to hell with the collateral damage is a STUPID reckless point of view.

      As for PishyPete and the urine he spouts, we are not out of this by a long shot. The idiot orangutan in the White House may yet kill a million of his citizens.

      ———————

      Meanwhile in Sweden and the mad professor..
      https://unherd.com/2020/04/which-epidemiologist-do-you-believe/

    157. Chic McGregor says:

      On QT, I just heard probably the worst piece of journalistic crap, well, ever, from Camilla Tominey.

      In response to the accusation that the UK(England) locked down too late, which to my mind is simply an observation rather than conjecture, she actually came out with “Well to be fair we did lock down before the peak.”

      There are only two dreadful conclusions which may be drawn from that.

      First, that a so called journalist could be so very ignorant about how a pandemic works. The modest peak we have seen, and its timing, is entirely a consequence of the lock down. It only represents approximately a 15th of the peak we would have seen without lock down and several weeks earlier.

      Second, and worse, is if she knew that but thought enough of the audience would be too stupid to understand that.

    158. robbo says:

      bipod says:
      21 May, 2020 at 11:19 pm

      Every day/week NS or JF give you updates on the people that test +pos for the virus that have died and those suspected of having died with covid being suspected as a possible contributing factor in their death-two distinct figures.

      Am i wrong or right,or do you never listen to briefing but rather parrot theories by conspiracy charlatans?

      If the died from flu related death then they wouldn’t test for +pos covid and would be on the other columns in ONS figures that along with other illnesses. Or is the ONS wrong now too?

      What you’re trying to say is in a sneaky way -nothing to see here,covid doesn’t exist,it’s a conspiracy !

      Where’s Mel Gibson when you need him-maybe he could find the answer.

    159. bipod says:

      @Capella

      Depression, other mental health issues?

      Cancer patients not being treated https://www.itv.com/news/2020-04-22/60-000-cancer-patients-could-die-because-of-lack-of-treatment-or-diagnosis-oncologist-on-coronavirus-dilemma/, heart disease, people not turning up to A&E becasue they are afraid of the virus. The list goes on.

    160. bipod says:

      @robbo

      I am not questioning the existence of covid 19. I am pointing out that covid 19 is not as deadly as originally thought, so it doesn’t make sense to place the entire population under house arrest. I am also questioning the effectiveness of the lockdown, many nations have taken different approaches with the severity of their lockdowns and there have been different results. The UK has had a lockdown and has performed very badly, Japan which has an elderly population hasn’t had a lockdown and they have performed much better.

      3rd world countries, which many people thought the virus would rip through, haven’t had really ahd any trouble and their healthcare systems have not collapsed and thats not because of a lockdown.

      I’m sure you accept that the government has made mistakes during this, couldn’t it also be the case that the government and media narrative on this is also wrong?

    161. jfngw says:

      @bipod

      So lockdown happened on 25th March, this resulted in a spike of cancer deaths three weeks later, you know nothing about cancer I’m afraid.

      The oncologists are referring to cases in the future that could have been caught earlier and received treatment, these people will not be dead yet.

      Maybe it was a brain sucking spaceship, just about as plausible.

    162. CameronB Brodie says:

      bipod
      Your moral compass appears to be functioning sub-optimally.

      ———–

      Here’s one for everyone else, apart from the other obvious fannies. Fill your boots.

      Multi?Case Review of the Application of the Precautionary Principle in European Union Law and Case Law
      https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/risa.12633

    163. Beaker says:

      Why are some people still moaning about the lockdown?

      For the record, I’ve been in lockdown working from home since 24th March, and could be doing so for several months.

      I’ve not gone mental wibble wibble squeeeeee Nigel Farage for Prez…

      Never feed me after midnight…

    164. Capella says:

      The CMO, Health Minister and Nicola Sturgeon made it clear weeks ago that
      1 covid patients should go to the specialist hubs for treatment
      2 all other patients should attend their GP as normal.

      If people don’t attend because of fear of the virus that is obviously not because of the lockdown.

    165. cynicalHighlander says:

      @bipod

      You are becoming more of a dangerous joke than anything else as is Ian Brotherhood I have COPD and need a breath test to assertain whether one of the inhalers I am on is working but I am not as selfish as you appear to be in putting health workers lives on the line to satisfy my particular needs. So wind your neck in. Some of us care about others wellbeing and if I end up as casualty that’s life.

    166. Capella says:

      Arguably, without the lockdown the level of fear of the virus would be even higher.

    167. Joe says:

      @jnfgw

      Yes. It is a ridiculous sounding statement. You can take it more as a criticism of your gate keeping, never-meet-a-difficult-question-head-on-and-never-say-i-dont-know, always-add-a-put-down, slippery, always established narrative defending style and not an accusation.

    168. Joe says:

      @Cynical highlander

      Its lucky you dont play football for a living. Playing the man instead of the ball constantly would make you a managers nightmare.

    169. CameronB Brodie says:

      Joe
      The reason I don’t argue with you in a manner that suites you, is I’m not looking to help sell your twisted imagination.

      Science in inaction – The shifting priorities of the UK government’s response to COVID-19 highlights the need for publicly accountable expert advice.
      https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/impactofsocialsciences/2020/04/27/science-in-inaction-the-shifting-priorities-of-the-uk-governments-response-to-covid-19-highlights-the-need-for-publicly-accountable-expert-advice/

    170. jfngw says:

      @Joe

      I think it’s called opinion, that’s what a BTL area is. You are not required to read my comments, it’s not obligatory, if you don’t like them just scroll on by because I don’t really care what you think.

      I’m not the gatekeeper, it’s not my site.

    171. Joe says:

      Lol there is a real number of people here who simply cannot seem to discus the China Virus without adding insults or put downs. With some its just put downs and no argument. For the honest and scared folk – try not lashing out, its just honest concerns/questions, get a grip. For the pro’s – you are a waste of money and space. I could do a better job pissed.

    172. Joe says:

      @CameronB Brodie

      I’ll repeat something I said before – i will not do you the courtesy of engaging with you until you honestly engage with others without evasion, without ad-hominems and without copying amd pasting paragraph after paragraph of post modernist neo marxist critical theory garbage 🙂

    173. CameronB Brodie says:

      Joe
      Btw, that one from the LSE highlights why we need more than science to guide us, we need moral reason than is coherent with existing public and administrative law. Preferably law that is not divorced from the Natural Law (see British constitutional law).

      Bringing New Law to Ocean Waters, 357-79.
      The Evolution and International Acceptance of
      the Precautionary Principle

      https://www.mmc.gov/wp-content/uploads/vandyke.pdf

    174. Hackalumpoff says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood at 11:17 pm
      By way of an informative ‘intermission. ~ IVOR CUTLER LIVES !

    175. CameronB Brodie says:

      Joe
      If the stakes weren’t so high, I think I’d enjoy sparring with you, but you’re just not someone I take seriously.

      RESCUING THE STRONG
      PRECAUTIONARY PRINCIPLE
      FROM ITS CRITICS

      https://illinoislawreview.org/wp-content/ilr-content/articles/2011/4/Sachs.pdf

    176. Joe says:

      This psychologist also has a Phd in epidemiology.

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=YZ939QBQjBw

    177. CameronB Brodie says:

      Joe
      You appear desperate to cherry picking scientific evidence to suite your right-wing agenda (see “the China Virus”). If Trump wasn’t such an unhinged psycho, your nation might have responded more promptly and competently to WHO advice. Do you not think I see you trying to subvert public health, by virtue signalling your concern for public health?

      Uncharted territory: Legal experts weigh in on the COVID-19 outbreak
      The spread of the new coronavirus has affected people all over the world, and state and local governments are taking sweeping actions to halt the spread of the disease and mitigate the public health and economic impact of the outbreak.

      HLS scholars and legal experts consider the important legal and policy concerns and challenges that have emerged—including those involving civil liberties, privacy, historical precedent, and economic impact—as cities, states and countries respond to the epidemic.

      The following selection of their articles and op-eds will be updated regularly.

      https://today.law.harvard.edu/roundup/uncharted-territory-legal-experts-weigh-in-on-the-covid-19-outbreak/

    178. Joe says:

      https://aspe.hhs.gov/cdc-—-influenza-deaths-request-correction-rfc

      Flu deaths v flu associated deaths. Similar to covid-1984 reporting? Most interesting part is the 4th section where it talks about amplifying flu severity to sell vaccines

    179. Joe says:

      ‘Glen Nowak, associate director for communications at the NIP, spoke on using the media to boost demand for the vaccine. One step of a “Seven-Step `Recipe’ for Generating Interest in, and Demand for, Flu (or any other) Vaccination” occurs when “medical experts and public health authorities publicly…state concern and alarm’

    180. CameronB Brodie says:

      Joe
      If you don’t already work for Breitbart…. 😉

      A Preliminary Human Rights Assessment of Legislative and Regulatory Responses to the COVID-19 Pandemic across 11 Jurisdictions
      https://www.law.ox.ac.uk/sites/files/oxlaw/v3_bonavero_reports_series_human_rights_and_covid_19_20203.pdf

    181. Joe says:

      Its goodnight from me and its goodnight from the President of the United States who has a message relevant to you, our government and especially the media

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XSzLty1qAv4

    182. CameronB Brodie says:

      Joe
      I was reading Carroll Quigley when I was in my twenties, but I’ve also learned a lot of stuff about how to dismantle nepotistic government. And how to spot political identities. 😉

      Marc-William Palen. The “Conspiracy” of Free Trade: The Anglo-American Struggle over Empire and Economic Globalization, 1846–1896.
      https://academic.oup.com/ahr/article-abstract/124/2/658/5426295

    183. CameronB Brodie says:

      Brexit insists foundational legal knowledge of Scotland has no place in British constitutionalism. That’s simply not compatible with social democracy, as it erases foundational knowledge of Scotland’s legal identity from British legal culture. That’s the legal practice of Nazism.

      Pragmatism and Epistemic Democracy
      Chapter for The Routledge Handbook of Social Epistemolog

      https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308794722_Pragmatism_and_Epistemic_Democracy

    184. CameronB Brodie says:

      y, doh!

    185. robbo says:

      What a great story.Every one should.Just shows what can be done when you’ve not a selfish bastard.

      All it cost Mongolia was a good neighbour that told them and some 30,000 sheep

      Scozzie says:
      22 May, 2020 at 2:41 am
      Why not write a letter asking him to outline in detail what exactly the Justice Minister is responsible for….cough, cough if not justice and the judicial system which surely must include the conduct of COPFS!

      Here’s an interesting read – how Mongolia got it right on COVID19 – seems timing is everything!
      https://medium.com/@indica/covid-underdogs-mongolia-3b0c162427c2

      robbo says:
      22 May, 2020 at 6:00 am
      That’s an amazing story scozzie!

      Thanks

      Just shows what you can do when applying the 7 P’s principal. Well done Mongolia

    186. admiral says:

      Joe says:
      22 May, 2020 at 12:34 am
      Lol there is a real number of people here who simply cannot seem to discus the China Virus without adding insults or put downs.

      Ooh – irony alert!

    187. Oneliner says:

      So a £3 million package has been agreed with the Scottish (Daily?) Newspaper Society. That ought to have been contingent upon them agreeing to publish their members’ circulation figures.

      Evidently a SG negotiation on par with the Ferguson Shipyard debacle.

    188. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Capella 11.05: the “ten times the death rate of ‘flu” claim was an early one and has been seriously questioned by many other scientists, like the ones quoted on the Swiss Propaganda Research site and linked to on Wings several times. This belief may have been why the Nightingale/Jordan hospitals were hastily built but they seem to have been barely needed.

      You can perhaps find scientists to say the opposite; that is the problem non-specialists have when trying to discuss this issue. The same goes for how deaths are described on a death certificate: there are conflicting claims. Which group of scientific experts does the lay person believe?

      Yes, England’s z number is high on those graphs and other countries have much lower ones, so I don’t see what that has to do with my original question about whether seasonal ‘flu deaths were being put down as Covid ones. It seems we will have to wait much longer to get a clear picture.

    189. Golfnut says:

      I think there are a lot of questions to be asked regarding Covid 19, not least the numbers of deaths attributed to it. We really need to stick to what we do know for certain, which is the numbers in excess of the norm.
      In February Scotland’s total deaths were 6.7% below the previous 5 yr average, the March figure had a spike showing an excess of around 900 deaths, April spiked to over 3,000 in excess of the 2019 figure. Covid is the most likely of culprits at this stage.

    190. jfngw says:

      Joe does some nice deflection, does the 77th Brigade have a Euthanasia Section?

    191. jfngw says:

      @Tinto Chiel

      People with underlying health conditions may well die of something else, the criteria I use is would they have lived if they had not caught the virus. If the virus has put an extra strain on them which exacerbated the condition should this be counted as a covid death, some don’t believe it should unless it directly killed them.

    192. Capella says:

      @ Tinto Chiel – IIRC the initial fear was that the Covid 19 death rate was 3 to 4% of people infected. That was revised down to 1%. But that’s 10 times more than flu at 0.1%.

      The lack of Covid 19 on death certificates in England caused alarm in staff who record deaths. They were seeing a big rise in deaths but few with covid on the death certificate. It’s up to the GP but PHE was said to have pressured them to only record covid if a test had been carried out. Very few tests were available in the community.

      Sorry I don’t have links atm. Will search them out. But I agree that experts will differ. We just have to make the best assessment we can with the info available.

    193. Golfnut says:

      @ Scot Finlayson.

      Quite an impressive document despite the media already implying that the public might not comply. Nor is it helpful that the opposition demand clarity when the FM had already announced that each stage would be rolled out and explained as it happened.

    194. ahundredthidiot says:

      Prof Michael Levitt on COVID19 – see YT for interview with Unherd

    195. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Another day in the UKOK!

      http://archive.is/dJzX7

      “ A Liberal Democrat peer criticised for furloughing himself to get a government subsidy while continuing to claim a daily allowance from the House of Lords has apologised and promised to pay the money back.”

    196. ahundredthidiot says:

      Prof Johan Giesecke on COVID 19

    197. ahundredthidiot says:

      Prof Sucharit Bhakdi on COVID19

    198. Dogbiscuit says:

      It’s hilarious the Governments usefull idiots on here insulting people who disagree with Sturgeon.U can only assume this site infested with Government Trolls trying to shape the public’s thinking.Im hitting the target because no cunt has an argument that doesn’t come from Governments playbook. You betray our democracy.You ensure your fellow mans rights are removed .None of Government Trolls -Robbo- believe in democracy.

    199. Dogbiscuit says:

      SNPTrolls not interested in truth.

    200. Cuilean says:

      So with so little influence and clearly rejected by the ‘Great British Public’ why does the ‘Great British’ BBC still give them and their tax exile owners free advertising, every night?

    201. ahundredthidiot says:

      Lockdown TV (Unherd) on YouTube is by far the best source of interviews I have found so far. The man has both sides of the argument on and lets them speak (even Neil Ferguson) – so I would suggest that if you want to listen to ‘expert opinion’ in the absence of ANY scientific evidence either way for lockdown, go there.

      Do your own research, make up your own mind.

    202. jfngw says:

      As the MSM and the Britnat parties in Scotland try to leave the impression that the Covid-19 outbreak in the UK was launched in Edinburgh and a failure of the Scotgov I found this thread.

      https://twitter.com/INDYCAMP261115/status/1263371805328314368

      There seems to have been no track and trace here, is this a Tory failure, should the English Health Secretary resign? The Tories are clear this sort of thing is a resigning matter, why are they not calling for it. Also why are Labour and the LibDem’s quite on the matter, perplexing, …maybe not!

    203. Dogbiscuit says:

      So the Great Sturgeon drip feeding freedom in case it’s all too much for us at once. I will never vote for that Fascist. Capella must be on psychotropics.

    204. @Golfnut,

      ` the haters gonna hate`

      T. Swift

    205. ahundredthidiot says:

      jfngw (last night o’clock) you said;

      ‘I listened to the first 30 min with some Irish guy…..’

      what does him being Irish have to do with anything?

      …..and into the light you come……not very attractive.

    206. jfngw says:

      @Golfnut

      I posted this link earlier, it has a graph showing a massive spike of deaths this year starting in March, way above the flu spikes of previous years. No pronounced spike in Dec 19, but still we will have people claiming a many of these deaths are probably the flu being hidden. Of course not everyone that died with Covid will have died directly of it, the important thing is would they have lived had they not caught it (sorry repeating myself there from an earlier comment but I think it’s worth repeating).

      https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/weekly-national-flu-reports-2019-to-2020-season

    207. Tinto Chiel says:

      @jfngw, Capella: we’re going around in circles here and I’d just be repeating myself saying much more. When scientific experts are in such disagreement it’s difficult for ordinary mortals to get a clear picture and I’m sure we could trade scientific opinions all day with links to all kinds of studies. There’s a large number on the SPR site anyone can consult if they want to but I have sensed a reluctance from some contributors to have a look at them.

      I’ve just noticed in today’s National that Professor Whitty, England’s CMO, said yesterday that “the total number of deaths from all causes has now reached the rate seen in an average winter” so make of that what you will. Do we believe him or not?

      Ironically, what I found interesting on the clip Ian B referred to wasn’t the reference to Covid but the 77 Brigade stuff and, lo and behold, I hear Tobias Ellwood made an appearance on Newsnight when all the government spokespersons had run for cover.

    208. Golfnut says:

      @ Scot Finlayson.

      Aye, very true, but some of them are funny.

      ” SNP trolls not interested truth”

      I really did laugh at that.

    209. Bob Mack says:

      @Ahndredtheidiot,

      Find out for yourselves he says.

      As Homer Simpson of Wings you have excelled yourself with that little gem.

      If only we had brains like you eh?

    210. ahundredthidiot says:

      Bob Mack

      sorry, once again I missed your argument, but caught the insult.

      wha’s like us, eh.

    211. ahundredthidiot says:

      Not usually a fan of Jim Sillars, but found this article to be right on the money;

      https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/beware-scotland-s-hate-crime-bill

    212. jfngw says:

      @Tinto Chiel

      I agree, we won’t know the full facts for years, in fact it may not even be in my lifetime. I’m going to try to stop commenting on this as it is fruitless, people believe what they want to believe, you cannot browbeat a belief into people, either way.

      The trouble with Mr Whitty’s statement is it is not winter so the excess deaths are still above normal, nice bit of covering by him though to try and deceive people with false comparisons (drat commented again).

    213. Bob Mack says:

      @Ahundredtheidiot,

      You don’t argue. You impose.

    214. ahundredthidiot says:

      Bob Mack

      I’m sorry you feel that way, but I suppose that’s better than;

      You don’t argue. You insult.

    215. callmedave says:

      O/T a wee bit.

      Hmmm! While we were sleeping.

      https://archive.is/OenOx

      My good looking auntie, when adjusting my tie, prior to me going out to the ballroom in the 60’s always said with a smile.

      “David, hang onto your holiday money ” 🙂

    216. Bob Mack says:

      @Ahundredtheidiot,

      Only when deserved!! You are deserving Homer.

    217. Capella says:

      A Lancet article on covid-19 fatality rate published on 30th March. Gives 1.38% rate for covid 19 and 0.96% for flu.
      The Lancet is quite reputable medical journal IMO.
      https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30257-7/fulltext

    218. CameronB Brodie says:

      I like how a bit of science and law get the haters frothing. SCIENCE is not the be-all and end-all though, ETHICS enable us to make use of science. HMG had a legal duty of care that they appear to have simply ignored. And now everyone and their dog feels their a public health experts, and qualified to insist we ignore global health law. There really are some cracking egos on this site. 😉

    219. Clapper57 says:

      Tens of thousands of coronavirus tests have been double-counted, officials admit. Saliva & nasopharyngeal swabs from the same person counted twice

      This helps fill the 1million gap between “person tested” and tests. 350k double counted.

      Two samples taken from same patient are being recorded as two separate tests in the UK governments official figures……

    220. dakk says:

      Sky News just running the fact that Sweden has just overtaken the UK as the country with the highest Covid19 deaths per capita in THE WORLD.

      I’m shocked.

      That Sky News actually admitted the UK had been the world’s worst, that is.

      They just kind of slipped that in when they got the chance.

      Good ol’ Sweden.

    221. Bob Mack says:

      @Dakk,

      But, but, but. Ahundredtheidiot and guys like Pete tell us Sweden is ok. I need to stop listening to our in house experts. They may be flawed doh?

    222. ahundredthidiot says:

      dakk

      on a rolling average over a given 7 day period. in terms of deaths per million overall, they are still well below the UK (542 v 380).

      in either case, it’s a bit early to be counting the dead, don’t you think?

      snapshots and headlines……and fkn sky news – seriously!

    223. ahundredthidiot says:

      Bob Mack

      At no point have I ever said Sweden was ‘ok’ while people are dying and take offence Sir.

      I will ignore you from now on.

    224. robbo says:

      Meanwhile in Aberdeen-shire the gifts that just giving.

      Seriously, fecking crochet.What is wrong with people who vote for these idiots!

      https://twitter.com/JaneyGodley/status/1263463546509287427

    225. CameronB Brodie says:

      ahundredthidiot
      Can you try not to be such a fanny? TA.

      At the intersection of public and private morality: an ethical framework for aggressive COVID-19 policies
      http://www.voicesinbioethics.net/voices-in-bioethics/2020/4/12/at-the-intersection-of-public-and-private-morality-an-ethical-framework-for-aggressive-covid-19-policies-1

    226. Bob Mack says:

      @Ahundredtheidiot,

      As Homer your alter ego said “The ability to weasel out of any situation is what distinguishes us from the animals__except weasels of course”

    227. Bob Mack says:

      I can accept some of the contributors to Wings have become impervious to reason(especially lately), but I draw the line when they become impervious to intelligence.

      You know who you are.

    228. jfngw says:

      Ruth Davidson claims the Scotgov routemap makes no sense, I can only presume she was looking for something like Stay Alert, Control The Virus for clarity or the UK Gov Nando’s chart for how hot the virus is.

    229. Ron Maclean says:

      @robbo 11:19am

      As Professor Tom Nairn nearly said –

      Scotland will never be reborn if we keep voting for twats.

    230. galamcennalath says:

      Does anyone think it is coincidence that the three states in the world suffering the most from Covid19 – USA, UK, Brazil – are all ‘led’ by far right total numbskulls!?

    231. dakk says:

      @ hundredthidiot

      ‘and fkn Sky News seriously’

      Of course I don’t take anything the british propagandists say seriously.

      The fact they finally sneakily admitted the UK was the world’s worst was worth noting.

      The fact they used Sweden now, rather than Italy, or Spain, or any other poor foreign souls to deflect the truth about their own britain was my main point.

    232. Golfnut says:

      Apparently, I say apparently because this is anecdotal, Lorraine Kelly interviewed the FM, and by all accounts it was a very good interview. However, so I’m told, she went on to say that the FM was just like Ruth Davidson, twice. Eh! What planet is Kelly.

    233. Bob Mack says:

      @Golfnut,

      Nicola Sturgeon as excellent. So much so that Dr Hilary and Lorraine described her as being “very human”.Of course they had a perplexed look on their faces whilst saying it.

      Ruth is Ruth. A comfortable hail fellow well met liar that we al! know.

    234. robbo says:

      Thing is Ron, seems we will do.They keep voting Murder Fraser in and now we have the likes of Elma from scooby doo.
      The same pattern always emerges they come from the orange variety . They get votes based on hate.

    235. Capella says:

      @ Tinto Chiel – the 77th Brigade activities are certainly very interesting. Here’s a Guardian article on the Snowden revelations from August 2015:

      Amid disclosures of mass surveillance and government hacking, the Snowden revelations have exposed a hitherto unknown branch of the British intelligence services dedicated to influencing human behaviour with psychological science. Reporting has focused on the political implications of the revelation, but the leaked files also give a fascinating insight into new methods deployed by the secret services. The Joint Threat Research Intelligence Group, or JTRIG, specialises in attempting to “discredit, disrupt, delay, deny, degrade, and deter” opponents and has been branded by the press as GCHQ’s “deception unit”.

      Explains, perhaps, why the SAGE group had behavioural scientists trying to “nudge” us into doing what Dominic Cummings wants.

      http://archive.fo/85yGn

    236. Pete says:

      Sweden has admitted that it is getting deaths earlier than other countries but over the long haul they don’t expect it to be much different.
      On the plus side they haven’t ruined their economy and life is carrying on with much less disruption.
      Let’s be clear – the vast majority of deaths are with old people (myself), and of those, mostly in care homes where it is mostly dementia patients who are just parked with no quality of life.
      A slightly earlier demise is probably a blessing.
      Sorry about sounding uncaring but both Mrs Pete and myself are in agreement
      The other big group are those with diabetes (mostly obese) whose survival is down to themselves.
      There are very, very few deaths amongst the young, middle aged, fit group.
      I just feel that the downsides of lockdown are now outweighing any perceived benefits.
      This latest policy of keeping the schools shut till August is just madness.
      Why produce a batch of feral pupils when it is just not necessary with kids having next to zero chance of death and teachers something like 0.01%.
      Oh well, Nicola is just so wonderful!!
      Myself and my wife are losing months of quality life for what?

    237. Bob Mack says:

      @Pete,

      Remaining alive I suppose at a guess.

    238. Tinto Chiel says:

      @jfngw 10.19 and Capella 10.54: having read those contributions, I really can’t add anything to what I said @10.04, particularly my first paragraph, so I’m not going to do so.

    239. dan macaulay says:

      Prof Richard Murphy this morning says –

      “May 22 2020 at 7:21 am
      The SNP is heading for the most almighty bust up

      Watch Cherry v Robertson to see where it will be going….”

    240. robbo says:

      Pete says:
      22 May, 2020 at 11:57 am

      Tell me what is so bad about the kids going back after our summer recess when things will hopefully be in place for safe return?
      You do realise we go into school holidays here a month earlier aye? 2-3 weeks is hardly end of the world, and parents,schools,and unions are fine with it.

      Meanwhile, in Englandshire seems half the schools are rebelling ! What’s you’re thoughts there?

    241. Bipod says:

      Neither the UK govs plan or the Scottish govs plan (virtually the same just a 3 week lag) make much sense because they are completely out of proportion to the danger actually posed by the virus. NS has only got 1 stage of her 4 stage plan figured out and she still has not decided on the timing. Can you imagine if boris Johnson came out with that? He would have been crucified.

      If you are going to insist on a lockdown for a further 2 months then you better start producing some good evidence to show that the lockdown has made a difference, and if it did does it outweigh the consequences of the lockdown. The lockdown is driven by panic and hysterical fear, which is well shown here.

      If you are so afraid of the virus then self isolate so you don’t catch it, don’t try to disgracefully invoke the life’s of health care workers to force sceptics into compiling with your hysterical narrative.

    242. Golfnut says:

      @ Pete

      Being in or out of lockdown wont matter if the world economy collapses. All economies are interconnected, even Norway’s oil fund will take a serious hit. The economic argument is bogus.

    243. Gary45% says:

      Pete@11.57
      Nobody is stopping you going out and ignoring the medical advice,
      Just you and your other half go for it.
      I’ll raise a glass in your memory.
      Personally, the mask and gloves will be worn all through the summer when shopping and maybe into the autumn/winter, that’s my choice, what you do is up to you, after all Fuckwit Johnson says we all have “common sense”.

    244. Dogbiscuit says:

      jfngw a’massive spike’ in March would suggest its over by now .No?

    245. bipod says:

      complying*

    246. jfngw says:

      @Tinto Chiel

      I’m not sure what the point of watching lots of different experts disagreeing is, how would I decide which one to believe with no qualifications in the subject. Some science is absolute like areas of physics, you can experiment and prove the answers. Pandemics don’t fit in that category, there are too many variables which are disputed even amongst experts who produce models to prove their theories.

    247. robbo says:

      Boris already is crucified .Will be close between him and Dr Death himself Brown for title of worst Pm’s in living memory .

      One sold awe the gold and wan is a fecking idiot

    248. Dogbiscuit says:

      Too many orthodox thinkers defending a poor position with emotive arguments.Emotion is not a rational argument. All the angry little frightened prisoners need to believe they are not fools for falling for a full on media campaign of fear propaganda.How quickly and conveniently many have forgotten ‘project Fear. Nice to see Capella coming to.

    249. Bob Mack says:

      Let us all agree the doubters of Covid19 should be a!lowed to roam free as they wish. Humanity has always had to deal with such free spirits. “Spirits” may turn out to be the optimum destination but hey ho.

      Teaching a mule to be compliant is a difficult task. I had two.

    250. CameronB Brodie says:

      “Sorry about sounding uncaring but both Mrs Pete and myself are in agreement”

      That’s alright then, eh?

      Full text.

      Journal of Risk Research
      Published online: 23 Apr 2020

      Managing the Covid-19 pandemic through individual responsibility: the consequences of a world risk society and enhanced ethopolitics

      Abstract

      At the end of March 2020, international media present Swedish management of the ongoing Covid-19 pandemic as soft and irresponsible. Thus, Sweden, which is usually regarded as exceptionally risk averse and cautious, has chosen an unexpected risk management approach.

      The aim of this article is to reflect on how the Swedish government has managed the Covid-19 pandemic until early April 2020 from two theoretical perspectives, the risk society thesis and governmentality theory. We make a brief review of how previous pandemics have been managed compared to Covid-19 and try to understand the consequences of the Swedish handling of present pandemic with a particular focus on the governance of the pandemic and the exercise of power rather than definite risk management strategies during the pandemic.

      Keywords:
      Covid-19, risk society, inequality, governing of conduct, individual responsibilisation

      https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13669877.2020.1756382

    251. Bob Mack says:

      @Dogbiscuit.

      Interesting you describe those who oppose your view as angry and frightened. I think of them as rational.

      Perhaps a little transference going on there?

    252. Pete says:

      Robbo 12.09
      School holidays!
      Are you having a laugh?
      They should be cancelled and work starts now.
      Think about a break in the Autumn.

    253. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      “The Scottish Parliament debated its second Coronavirus Bill yesterday.”

      “The acrimony of the day, which saw the SNP and Tories aligning on most measures”

      https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2020/05/21/the-snp-voted-with-scottish-tories-against-country-by-country-reporting-yesterday-it-was-not-their-finest-hour/

      “It was not the SNP’s finest hour, not least because they voted directly against their own tax policy”

    254. jfngw says:

      @Dogbiscuit

      Reduced yes, over no. You need to decide if it was due to lockdown or not, it’s your choice, believe what you want.

    255. Ottomanboi says:

      Make of this what you will.
      https://www.globalresearch.ca/nicola-sturgeon-scotland-out-lockdown-out-uk/5713639
      Is Scotland turning into a giant, over-managed geriatric carehome?
      I can’t see many young Scots wanting to stay in such an environment Soon as lockdown is lifted many will be joining the exodus to get out as the economy slumps, that economy which pays for the vaunted social welfare.
      Given Scotland’s ageing demography independence, may like the economy, simply tank.
      Unless……

      Once upon a time there was an old country, wrapped up in habit and caution. We have to transform our old country into a new country and marry it to its time.
      (Charles de Gaulle)

    256. Dogbiscuit says:

      Golf nut and Bob Mack a pair of self satisfied radges sitting in judgement of anyone they disagree with.You make arguments to justify falling for Government propaganda. Lockdown no longer about flattening the curve.Now we are told by Government agents on here that lockdown is about a cure.None if you willing to bet on how long this madness will go on for? You’re an idiot Golfnut.

    257. Confused says:

      are you gay? – I bet you wish you were.

      https://www.unz.com/jthompson/little-uruguay-not-many-dead/

      a little tale about a little country, making its own decisions, acting pragmatically, unified nationally

      – but, but pooling and sharing the virus all better together … and sweden … and thu’conomy … SCOTLAND IS SHITE

      BRITONS NEVER SHALL BE SLAVES
      as least we are not backward shit eating countries like vietnam and mongolia …

      – the story also confirms the “it only takes ONE ARSEHOLE”-theory of cascade systems failure; one woman who liked to party …

      The ‘gayans also, stable geniuses to a person – found that LOCKING DOWN THE AIRPORT – was a good idea; who knew? Who could have worked that one out? Calling HEATHROW?!

      I doubt they will ever bother tracing back the origins of the disease in the UK – too embarrassing; the decision to allow the cheltenham festival to go ahead looks criminal, but that would annoy rich people who own racehorses – then there was the mad partying in the ski resorts which carried on … ?ischgl

      One thing this crisis has shown is the general callous disregard for the lives and safety of old people, unless its a close relative (and even then …) – something for us all to remember; its coming for everyone.

      I can see a lot of wills being changed, the dogs and cats homes making out well.

    258. Dogbiscuit says:

      Jfngw the flu virus runs its own course.Lockdown unnecessary Anyone arguing from your position is losing.Can you not see the advantage your Government’s hold over you?

    259. Bob Mack says:

      @Dog biscuit,

      At least I was spared the idiot part. Would you have been in the lynch job wanting to hang Galileo when he said the earth was an orb rather than flat?

      Such courage and determination in the face of danger as your own I have seen on numerous occasions. Inevitably it occurs in those who have very little quality of life to lose in any event.

    260. Dogbiscuit says:

      Fuck off with your main stream media fearporn Take a fucking look at yourselves.

    261. Sensibledave says:

      Robbo 12.10

      I understand where you are coming from, he’s an easy target. I would say though that he became Major of London, twice. Became the leader of the Conservative party and Prime Minister. Won a General Election taking out Labour’s Red Wall and got Brexit done. That isn’t me praising him, I am merely stating facts. Like him or not, he is a formidable operator and I wouldn’t write him quite yet.

    262. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Some of the mud-slinging on here lately has been disgraceful. The culprits know who they are – objective WOS regulars and/or lurkers can see for themselves where the anger and ignorance is emanating from.

      It’s a sad day when people who, just months ago, were perfectly civil, nay friendly to one another, are reduced to incoherent accusations and foulmouthed monosyllabic condemnation in lieu of cogent argument.

      No need to name anyone – they know who they are and will confirm as much in the responses to this.

    263. Dogbiscuit says:

      Bob Mack you misjudge me and heap upon me your pet prejudices.Its you the orthodox majority that tends toward lynch mob mentality in the way you jump on top of political heretics you fool.

    264. jfngw says:

      @Dogbiscuit

      If only I had your insight, I prostrate myself in the presence of such an intellect.

    265. Dogbiscuit says:

      Galileo said the Earth went round the Sun.That was his heresy.nothing to do with flat earth.

    266. Dogbiscuit says:

      jfngw leave sarcasm to the intelligent.

    267. Julia Gibb says:

      Reading the debate/arguement on lockdown I struggle to understand the logic of those who argue “It should never have been in place, it should be fully lifted right away”
      No matter my view on any policy I would never undermine a position that was intended to make people safer.The anti-lockdown brigade are akin to the anti 70MPH speed limit on Motorways or those who argued against seat belts and crash helmets.

      What if you are wrong? You will have been part of the cause of more deaths. Do what you want to do but respect the fact that you could be wrong.

      So drive without a seat belt and show them you are a free thinker.

    268. Bob Mack says:

      @Doggybikky,

      No I don’t minute you at all. Minorities tend to be more trouble then the majority in most scenarios in any event.

      No, you show the bravado of one who intrinsically has nothing to lose. The courage of the disenfranchised onlooker. Raging to be heard in the storm.

      Forget it. The majority know the score here.

    269. Republicofscotland says:

      Angus MacNeil, warns SNP colleagues not to stand in the way of pushing for independence. MacNeils comment comes of the back of the likes SNP MP James Down and Pete Wishart trumpeting that we shouldn’t push for indy anytime soon.

      MacNeil pointed out the likes of Jackson Carlaw is already pushing this pandemic as a reason to stay in the union.

      Oh how I wish MacNeil was the FM, instead of Sturgeon.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/18467342.angus-brendan-warns-party-only-tories-campaign-yes/

    270. Pete says:

      Ian brotherhood
      The other day you were recounting a story about your local hospital being very quiet and, if I recall, you were pilloried for telling it.
      Anyway, my daughter was in this morning and told me how she had to take her daughter to our local A&E last evening after a horse riding accident.
      To confirm your story, the hospital in toto was almost deserted and, in fact, eerily so.
      I think you may be due an apology.

    271. Bob Mack says:

      @Pete,

      You mean your grandaughter?. Otherwise you might sound a bit contrived.

    272. Dogbiscuit says:

      Bob Mack you bet I’m angry and frightened of the suspension of civil liberties democratic freedoms.Covid being used to whitewash fascism.

    273. ahundredthidiot says:

      Ian B

      I fear it will get worse. I am also not without sin regarding the point you make.

      My elderly parents live in abject terror. While I was on a 7 day response for several weeks the MSM had done it’s job on them – I didn’t have time, nor the inclination, to tune in.

      They know what I do for a living. I tell them (what I can) about the data I see and what is actually happening from the ground all the way to SG – they nod, are reassured for a a few hours, then slip back under their terror blanket. They chose MSM over me and that is unbelievably frustrating.

      He will likely die before summer – and not from COVID of that I am sure. They make themselves prisoners in their own house. It is a sad site and not a lesson in how to live out your last days.

      Indyrdf1 and Brexit combined, is no patch on the damage COVID will do to our society – reflected here on these pages.

    274. Dogbiscuit says:

      Ha no one gets an apology on this site

    275. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      I trust my judgement, as I’ve been trained to deal with this sort of situation.

      The (virtue) epistemology of political ignorance
      https://www.brandonu.ca/research-connection/rc-article/the-virtue-epistemology-of-political-ignorance/

    276. jfngw says:

      @ahundrethidiot

      what does him being Irish have to do with anything?

      …..and into the light you come……not very attractive.

      There was a number of interviews with the same prof available, The one that I watched was hosted by an Irish guy, it was a description of the one I watched, I didn’t log his name. But nice try to paint those that disagree with you as bigots, you are a nasty piece of work aren’t you.

    277. Dogbiscuit says:

      Julia Gibb another argument loaded with preconceived ideas about maniacs without seatbelts.What??

    278. Bob Mack says:

      @jfngw,

      Indeed he is. Like a lonely old man who has found a site to vent his anger.Nothing more dangerous than that.

    279. Dogbiscuit says:

      CBB trust me I’m an expert.Haaaaaaas!

    280. Bob Mack says:

      @Doggybikky,

      You don’t do comparative thinking do you?

    281. Bob Mack says:

      Ahundredtheidiot sees all the data all the way to the Scottish Government yet still can’t grasp how it is translated.

      Monkeys keyboard Shakespeare all come to mind.

    282. Dogbiscuit says:

      See how Bob looks down on someone he believes is down on his luck.Bob if there is one sure thing in my life it’s that I’m a survivor.So far at least.You don’t address any of the arguments you go for personal attacks like your colleague jfngw. You’re not keen on addressing issues.You do realise that lockdown is no longer about ‘flattening the curve’ but is now about eradicating the disease.A change of the rules making it up as the Government goes along. Funny how you had a problem with Gordon Brown doing that in 2014. And Golfnut someone has to say this but Golf is really the most pointless game.

    283. Dogbiscuit says:

      BobMack you don’t do intelligent argument don’t you?

    284. jfngw says:

      @sensibledave

      Just proves you can fool all of the people all of the time.

      Although I suspect he is now wished he had delayed his leadership challenge, this was supposed to be his great Brexit moment, it’s all gone a bit sour for him.

    285. Bob Mack says:

      @Dog biscuit,

      Oh I do INTELLIGENT argument no problem. That however is not what you are after. You try to force your opinion on others regardless of any validity their side may have.

      You and You Alone are the creator of the replies you get.

      Remember that.

    286. Republicofscotland says:

      Unionist Colonel “I love the rape clause” Ruth Davidson complaining about lockdown lifting measures in Scotland and highlighting and pushing the care home deaths in Scotland are higher than in England even though the English (LSE) London School of Economics says that care home deaths in England are more than likely double the offered up figure.

      What other countries politicians actively work for a foreign countries interests and against their own people’s interests. Make sure you give your list vote to the new indy party at Holyrood next year and in the process remove as many Ruth Davidson’s as possible.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/18468711.gmb-anger-ruth-davidsons-lockdown-easing-complaints/

    287. jfngw says:

      @Bob Mack

      Just ignore the dog, obviously just trolling for reaction. He will just keep on replying with no point.

    288. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m not claiming to be an expert in public health, I only have a rudimentary, professional, appreciation of this stuff. That does give me a slight advantage though. And at least I’m not a paranoid and self-centered science denier. 😉

      Historical Accountability and the Virtue of Civic
      Integrity

      http://epublications.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1558&context=phil_fac

    289. Ian Brotherhood says:

      So let me get this straight…

      I will be allowed to go and visit a friend in his garden. But I can’t go inside his house to use the toilet.

      If I go to see the friend, weather permitting, we will have tea or, more likely, beer, wine, cider and perhaps some whisky. But as soon as nature ‘calls’ I will have to leave.

      Am I allowed to bring a big sealable bottle I can pish into if I promise to take it home with me?

      Can any of the lockdown fans in here please defend this latest development? (If so, many of us would appreciate it if you show your workings.)

      And be honest – did any of you anticipate it as a logical next-step in the alleviation of restrictions? You view this as ‘reasonable’? Seriously?

      If Spike Milligan or Flann O’Brien had suggested stories featuring such nonsense they would’ve been advised by their publishers to take a sabbatical.

    290. Bob Mack says:

      @Ian Brotherhood,

      There are people who pick up and dance with rattlesnakes thinking God will protect them.

      I think the key point is you are going to see people. Not drink,eat,or anything else. You do as you wish.

      I have not seen my daughters of grandchildren for many weeks ( Skype excepted), but I do so to protect them, not myself.

      Under no circumstances would I put them at any risk.I am in more danger than ghem, but that is secondary.

      In any event, you can do what you wish. Break every conceivable guideline if you want, as long as you are prepared for your hosts having a different viewpoint.

      Happy visiting.

    291. Colin Alexander says:

      If the Herald / Evening Times report is correct:

      Glasgow Health Board (NHSGGC) took Coronavirus (tested negative) elderly patients (so particularly vulnerable to Covid-19) from Queen Bettys (QEUH) where there were empty single rooms, and put them into Gartnavel, which has geriatric open wards.

      The Health Board already knew Gartnavel was already hoaching with Coronavirus. Patients at Gartnavel were also being moved around from ward to ward.

      Story found here: http://archive.is/Fbixq

      Result: lots of dead patients from Covid-19.

      Is it any wonder patients are avoiding hospitals, if they can?
      ——————————–

      See also: The Sun story: “GUILTY AS DISCHARGED Nearly 1000 hospital patients sent to Scots care homes before mandatory testing started amid fears it fuelled death rate”.

      Found here: http://archive.is/CbNiY

      In my opinion the the Scottish Govt’s lack of preparation for an epidemic such as Coronavirus, has been abysmal, just like the UK Govt’s.

      The Scot Govt’s handling of events has been abysmal, just like the UK’s.

      And that’s largely because the Scot Govt have acted as a colony, copying the UK, despite health and social care being devolved.

      Nicola Sturgeon’s far more competent performance at press conferences, compared to the UK’s political spokesmen, does not change the abysmal organisation of the health / social care system which has apparently led to thousands of unnecessary deaths from Covid-19 in Scotland.

    292. jfngw says:

      @Ian brotherhood

      I think the toilet thing is more relevant if you are female (real ones), it’s about touching things and transferring the virus. If you are careful about washing your hands and wiping anything you touch with one of those toilet wipe things I think it would more than likely be safe, not so easy for women.

      Pishing in a bottle is probably fine but I would limit it to that unless the bottle has a particularly large orifice (this is supposed to be humour not sarcasm, although you may not find it funny).

    293. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      RE: quiet hospitals.

      Following advice from NHS24, I went to A&E at Ninewells during the afternoon of Sunday, 3rd May, to have an accidental cut looked at. It was around 1.5cm long by 5mm deep, between my forefinger and index finger.

      Gave my details at reception at approx 3:20pm and then was told to have a seat in the waiting area. Within 5 minutes, I was seen by two nurses, then taken to a bay to await a doctor.

      He turned up within 10 minutes, inspected my hand and then said he was going to get a second opinion. The second doctor arrived within 10 minutes.

      Outcome was that the wound had become infected so I was prescribed a week’s course of Flucloxacillin. It was agreed that it would be too awkward to stitch the cut so I was given a box of compresses and a roll of micropore and told to keep the two fingers strapped together until the wound healed. (It still has a few days to go.)

      I walked out of A&E at 4:10pm. 50 minutes total time. So much for the 4 hour target…

    294. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      I hope we’re still speaking. 😉

      I’d suggest four decades of a neo-liberal approach to government, has seriously undermined the potential for joined-up-policy and service delivery. This has been mirrored by an institutional rejection of the precautionary principle (see Brexit).

      How to do the right thing in a pandemic
      The precautionary principle can save lives

      https://iai.tv/articles/pandemic-precaution-and-moral-obligation-auid-1383

    295. lothianlad says:

      Republicofscotland says:

      22 May, 2020 at 12:58 pm

      Angus MacNeil, warns SNP colleagues not to stand in the way of pushing for independence. MacNeils comment comes of the back of the likes SNP MP James Down and Pete Wishart trumpeting that we shouldn’t push for indy anytime soon.

      MacNeil pointed out the likes of Jackson Carlaw is already pushing this pandemic as a reason to stay in the union.

      Oh how I wish MacNeil was the FM, instead of Sturgeon.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/18467342.angus-brendan-warns-party-only-tories-campaign-yes/

      Agree with you 100% !!

    296. robbo says:

      Ian Brotherhood says:
      22 May, 2020 at 1:42 pm
      So let me get this straight…

      You’ll jist need to piss in the garden or up the nearest close. Why change habits of a lifetime noo.

      Seriously it’s to do with going into houses and leaving the beastie on surfaces ,then your pal comes in and touches it, and vice versa. Heard this b4 ,not new. A nurse now retired I know said all to do with preventative spread or sumit. The basics in hospitals if there’s someone carrying a nasty bug only they would use toilet bud.

    297. Bob Mack says:

      @Colin Alexander,

      Yes the Scottish Government was unprepared for a pandemic, even though the UK held just such an exercise in 2016

      The bottom line though is this.Pandemic preparation costs a lot of money. Buying equipment of all types etc. We just didn’t have the finances under the current system to prepare in isolation for such an eventuality.

      Besides, can you name me who represented Scotland during that exercise? Bet you cant, because we were not invited.

    298. robert graham says:

      Oh dear a bit of of a disorderly establishment today Chaps ,

      This is usually the time when the management steps in and invites the perpetrators to take their fkn arguments outside and give the rest a fkn break ,

      All this in the best possible taste and thanks for your attention .

    299. Millennium says:

      English media and establishment can’t see the link between Hong Kong getting eaten up by larger neighbour and Scotland’s fight for Independence from our own larger neighbour.

      In the english media they call the people of Hong Kong,”Pro Democracy Freedom Fighters”

      But the same english media call us Scots fighting for our own freedom something completely different.

      Yes, two similar objectives from Scotland and Hong Kong

      One is known as a Freedom Fighter,,, the other is known as a dirty, illiterate,scrounging subsidy junkie.

      Guess which one is the Scot.

    300. Bob Mack says:

      @Briandoonthetoon,

      My daughter had people coming into her A and E prior to Covid and waiting for two hours because they had blisters from tight shoes!!

    301. Bob Mack says:

      @Robert Graham,

      You give me an idea. How about boxing matches for charity (Wings) post Covid or when allowed. We could make a few bob and get rid of our anger at the same time. Also give the guys with issues a chance to settle them under Marquis of Queensbury rules of course

      I know a few gyms.

      I’m up for it. That is taking it outside.

    302. Millennium says:

      Robert Graham has just appointed himself as the new Wings policeman

      He will decide when any poster has over stepped the mark, and will issue a stern warning before taking any further action.

      You have been warned

      “Watch out, Roberts about”

      He was in the middle of watching Series 3 episode 6 of Paton Place when all of a sudden he heard this thunderous argument breaking out on Wings

      But peace has been restored thanks to Robert’s intervention.

      Quite please!!!

    303. Golfnut says:

      @ Ottomanboi.

      So which thriving economy do you think our young will run to.

    304. Millennium says:

      Or better still…

      Quiet please Robert!!!

    305. terence callachan says:

      Lockdown is necessary
      Not for everyone but for a large number of people
      Older , infirm , disabled all are at risk of death from covid19

      Younger healthier people are being told to lockdown not because they are at risk of death but
      because they could give it to one or more of our older infirm or disabled people
      We are asking younger healthy people to stay at home so they don’t get covid19 and pass it on to other people who will die from it

      NS and SNP have not given up on Scottish independence they have not turned britnat

      What we are seeing is NS and SNP giving covid19 priority – quite rightly

      NS didn’t try and have AS convicted
      But others working in the SNP organisation did
      What we need to find out and will find out in time is who was backing the ten accusers
      I’m sure it wasn’t NS or SNP

      Infiltrated ? Of course , all political party’s are
      Just look at what happened to Labour when it was infiltrated by right wingers during Blair’s time

      There are infiltrators here on WOS
      There are weak people convinced by heresay and lies that SNP no longer want or fight for Scottish independence because they are too comfy in government

      That is just such a lot of tosh

      NS is doing a great job dealing with covid19 organisation
      By doing a great job she is a one person campaign for Scottish independence

      Brexit took longer than everyone expected , is taking longer than expected

      Scottish independence is a strong will of the majority of Scottish people and
      Now it looks as if it is also the will of the majority of people living in Scotland

      The half a million or more English people living in Scotland will never ever vote for Scottish independence
      A few half a dozen or so folk standing behind an English Scots for yes banner is a smokescreen that hides thee 99% who vote against Scottish independence who will never votes SNP who vote Tory Labour or Lib Dem tactically to keep SNP out.

      I understand their colonial thinking they love their country and will always vote for what s best for England

      But Scottish independence is what is best for Scottish people and more and more Scottish people are seeing it now

    306. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @BDTT –

      We have a mutual friend who told me about your accident (last night on the old dog & bone). Glad to hear you got it sorted.

      But what of the elderly and the alone, many of whom have been terrified to such an extent that they daren’t go over their own doorstep let alone into a hospital?

    307. terence callachan says:

      Millennium…..but Hong Kong is part of China !!
      It always was
      Britain stole it , you know like they stole Northern Ireland and Kenya and other countries around the world

      Hong Kong has always been Chinese

      Scotland was never part of England

    308. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m trained to respect the relational autonomy of others, but that means I need to stamp on those who seek to undermine the relational autonomy of all. That’s anyone who considers themselves uncountable and above the needs of civic integrity.

      Full text.

      Ethics and Scientific Integrity in Public Health, Epidemiological and Clinical Research
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3921690/

    309. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Hackalumpoff —

      Ivor Cutler!

      🙂

      You’ve prompted me to get on YT and look out some of his stuff. Proper tonic.

      Cheers!

    310. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Pete (1.01) –

      Sorry for slowness, just saw your comment there.

      I note what you say, with thanks, but won’t be holding my breath despite BDTT’s earlier confirmation.

      😉

    311. Colin Alexander says:

      Bob Mack

      Scotland held its comparible exercise called Silver Swan in 2016 as this Sunday Post report explains:

      “Warning ignored: Secret report exposed gaps in flu pandemic plans and demanded urgent action”.

      See the story here: http://archive.is/4P2R1

      The report recommended: “Should review plans for the distribution of PPE including identification of key staff and groups and ensure fit testing procedures are in place.”

      ————————–

      I fully accept lack of funding of the Scottish NHS plays a part in this and lack of UK Govt funds results in lack of funds for the SNP colonial govt of Scotland.

      Just another reason why Scotland should be independent and have a proper govt that serves the people of Scotland, instead of Westminster’s SNP puppet govts at Holyrood administering the colonial begging bowl.

    312. ronnie anderson says:

      Ian Brotherhood I would recommend a Lenor bottle lol

    313. CameronB Brodie says:

      Right now is not the time for an indyref but I’m not sure how James Dornan justifies his position. Bending to Brexit is incompatible with supporting the rule-of-law.

      Full text.

      Public Health Ethics: Cases Spanning the Globe pp 3-35
      Public Health Ethics: Global Cases, Practice, and Context

      https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-23847-0_1

    314. Mist001 says:

      Stay home!!

      Get to work!!

      The same confusion as the UK government has been heavily criticised for. Why anyone thinks Mrs. Murrell has handled this well, beats me.

      Check the financial figure too. If anyone thinks an independent Scotland could have afforded to furlough staff and businesses, then they’re living in cloud cuckoo land.

      http://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/nicola-sturgeon-announces-33m-fund-18275657

    315. jfngw says:

      @romnnie anderson

      Surely Comfort would be a better choice?

    316. callmedave says:

      BBC confirming the numbers in the MSM.

      Scotland……today…..24……Total…..2245…BBC
      Wales………today…..07……Total…..1254…BBC
      N. Ireland….today…..03……Total……504…BBC
      England…….today…*123……Total…*25388..*SUN
      =====================================================
      UK…………today….351……Total….36393…BBC

      BBC don’t do an England figure much anymore.

    317. Effijy says:

      Can we make it clear Holyrood never got and access to the
      Tories Cygnus report which apparently showed the UK to
      Be incapable of handling an epidemic properly.

      The Tories made a secret of the damning report as they were refusing
      To fork out to support emergency procedures.

      You do know Westminster cut Scotland’s budget by £2 Billion
      and as England continued selling off some of their NHS and
      That follows to further cuts to our budget.

    318. ronnie anderson says:

      jfngw Well if its comfort yer efftr ah recommend ah wide necked bottle an wan that huds volume lol

      Ah keep a bottle of Lenor in the car for emergencies cause ah hiv ah few of them
      pmsl

      Talkin pish oan here is a relief from the usual pish being posted lol

    319. Republicofscotland says:

      “Scotland was never part of England”

      Terrance.

      The National newspaper carried some historical evidence a while back which I read, that as far as countries go, Scotland is actually by twenty odd years, if I recall correctly, the elder of the two countries in this so called union.

    320. Ron Maclean says:

      @Republicofscotland 12:58pm/lothianlad 2:00pm

      Nicola Sturgeon will want to put a stop to that sort of heresy.

    321. Kevin Kennedy says:

      Like many I wont mourn their demise, ScotGov however seems to think it a good idea to give them a handout.

    322. Golfnut says:

      @ Colin Alexander.

      Not one single opposition MSP, or newspaper for that matter argued against the decision to transfer elderly patients to care homes when the SG implemented this policy to make beds available for Coronavirus victims, including the three Muppets featured in those articles.
      It wasn’t actually a secret at the time, was it.

    323. Effijy says:

      What shit mistake001 is talking.

      An independent Scotland could afford to support this
      Crisis as anyone.

      Are you dumb enough not to realist Westminster is just racking up debts
      To pay for it all.

      I’ve met many people hopeless at budgeting and who just keep treating
      Themselves paying out more than they pay in.
      Eventually they get it sorted out.

      So you are saying Scots are too stupid that the couldn’t borrow money
      Like the rest of the world.

      I should exclude Norway who found oil in the same sea and st the same
      Time as Scotland. They are debt free as Westminster didn’t steal their funds.

      How could Westminster survive without Scotland’s money and resources?

    324. ahundredthidiot says:

      I watched a parent bury their child the other day. She is deeply religious and instead of sitting separated from Family in her Church, chose instead to watch it, huddled with family in her front room, watching on youtube. Youtube.

      They then met up with the rest of us at the cemetery, unkempt, grass overgrown, bushes and shrub breaking borders – all due to COVID – apparently a single person with a machine now deemed not important in how we treat our dead. Graveside we were subject to lecture and instruction from a stranger working for a private company fronting as a funeral director.

      This is how we now treat our dead. Our loved ones in their final days, terrified of Death get to go without visitors, loved ones saying their final farewells deemed far too dangerous in the fight against the virus – it breaks my heart.

      The Shame we have brought upon our House is unforgivable.

      Those who carry that Shame in support of these measures know who they are.

      I hope there is a God – and I hope He is watching.

    325. Bob Mack says:

      I think the dead may well be appreciating the fact that their loved ones will not catch the virus that killed them.

      It’s all relative.

    326. hackalumpoff says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood, my all time favourite Ivor Cutler tune.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNHP4Z1MgNA

      Rather appropriate for some of the “discussions” here today dontchathink.

    327. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @ahundredthidiot –

      The personal stories are heartbreaking enough in themselves.

      But what we will have to contend with, sooner or later, is the stark evidence that mass brainwashing and deliberate creation of fear and hysteria is much more dangerous than any ‘bug’ – it removes from us the ability to exercise our own judgement based on the evidence of our own senses.

      This is the country that sparked the Age of Reason, and here we are, awaiting permission to touch our own relatives.

      Anyone still supporting this idiocy has a lot to answer for, and the usual circular reasoning adopted by the most strident lockdown fans here is no more of an excuse than ‘I was only following orders’.

    328. kapelmeister says:

      James Dornan thinks we should refrain from actively questing for Scottish freedom. He gives no indication of what he reckons should be the duration of this proposed hiatus. Nor does he, or others, put forward any detailed and reasoned argument about why independence campaigning should not soon resume.

      If you think that Scotland, England and the rest of the world having a shared experience over a pandemic is a sound reason for Scots to knuckle under to London diktat then I’m sorry, but you have the mindset of the colonised.

    329. Golfnut says:

      @Effijy.

      Nor at this time are we able to say when exactly the FM was briefed by the UK on the Pandemic. We do however know that Westminster instructed the company tasked with testing in Scotland not to share the results with the SG.

    330. Millennium says:

      terence callachan

      In case you have been living up your arse for the past 300 years,, Scotland has been an English Colony since 1707

    331. Bob Mack says:

      @Ian Brotherhood,

      It’s only you and idiots like Joe, Pete ,and ahundredtheidiot that are immune from this propaganda brainwashing then?

      What is your secret? The rest of us (baa,baa) sheep would follow if only we had your foresight.

      This is really sad,but I’m sitting laughing at some of you.
      Insightless would be a step up on your current position. I have seldom read such lunacy on one site.

    332. jfngw says:

      I wonder what the odds are that Ruth Davidson will be contending a constituency seat in England in 2024, if not earlier if there is a safe seat by-election after 2021.

      Don’t imagine that ambition to be someone has suddenly disappeared, some on here might think I’m gullible, but I’m not that gullible.

    333. Colin Alexander says:

      Golfnut

      It’s no just opposition MSPs that should be holding the Scot Govt to account, when they fail to oversee the NHS; SNP MSPs should too.

      Instead, we get nodding donkeys in ALL parties playing political games and failing to do their job properly.

      Newspapers and MSPs are not infection control experts. Health Boards are supposed to be. They have repeatedly failed to do that and it costs lives and suffering.

      I repeatedly tried to warn of Shona Robison’s hands-off approach had led to Health Boards failing in their duties of care.

      But, what do I know, eh? I was just a 77th Brigade officer, MI5 agent, Unionist troll and heretic etc according to Sturgeon’s faithful believers.

    334. jfngw says:

      @ian brotherhood

      So much for you wind down the rhetoric and language you posted earlier, now if we don’t agree with you we are all brainwashed.

      The bad news for you is you are aligned with those who have stated that just letting the old die is the best answer, after all for many of them it would be relief. I’m not going to draw any parallels but I think I could, so using ‘I was only following orders’ is getting in the gutter.

    335. CameronB Brodie says:

      This is the biggest nail I could find. 😉

      Documents Reveal Government and NERVTAG
      Breached Own Scientific Risk Assessment Guidance
      in COVID-19 Failure

      An official Government document published in January 2020 confirms that, by delaying action in response to the Coronavirus, officials breached their own internal cross-government standards concerning risks to “human, animal or plant health”.

      In the wake of an investigation by the Sunday Times, followed by an unprecedented Government response, the release of this document raises a number of urgent new questions about the Government’s COVID-19 strategy.

      “The Government followed scientific advice at all times”, according to its written response to the Sunday Times, which added that “claiming that there was scientific consensus on [the threat] is just wrong”.

      However, according to the Government’s own internal guidance on assessing risks to health, the demand for scientific consensus or certainty sets the bar too high. In a situation where there is a potentially severe threat, the ‘precautionary principle’ indicates the need for a determination to act rapidly in taking far-reaching precautions against a threat….

      https://bylinetimes.com/2020/04/23/the-coronavirus-crisis-documents-reveal-government-and-nervtag-breached-own-scientific-risk-assessment-guidance/

    336. Dan says:

      Paul Masson vino is a beverage option for any aspiring garden pishers.

      That said, if drinking more than one bottle it’s probably best to go with red wine rather than run the risk of mixing up half-filled white wine or pish bottles… Awaits wine aficionados claiming there’s no discernible difference…

    337. jfngw says:

      @Dan

      After the second bottle I can’t detect any difference, but I can’t walk in a straight line either and there’s a good chance that I’ve missed the opportunity to use the empty bottle as well.

    338. jfngw says:

      £126,000, is that the most expensive screw in UK history, paid for by the taxpayer.

    339. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Bob Mack & jfngw –

      I don’t remember addressing either of you directly with the ‘brainwashing’ comment so I don’t know why you’re taking it personally.

      Maintain the hostility for as long as you like – it won’t deter me and many others from stating our take on what’s happening. Bullying will not work.

    340. CameronB Brodie says:

      Anyone siding with Covid Davidians, needs to admit they place magical thinking over science..

      On Earth Day, Grim Lessons for the COVID-19 Crisis

      The administration’s preference for economic interests over environmental interests is reflected in its attitude toward both climate change and COVID-19
      https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/on-earth-day-grim-lessons-for-the-covid-19-crisis/

    341. Capella says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood – FYI – the virus exists in poo, not sure about pee. Modern flushing toilets act as aerosols launching clouds of vapour into the air. The virus can last up to 4 hrs in aerosol form. So anyone walking into a toilet just flushed by a carrier could breathe it in. I imagine extractor fans would help.

      Can’t really be bothered searching out all the links for above atm. It sounds as though you’re not interested anyway and I’ve posted all of them before. Common sense only takes you so far. Research into viruses and transmission is more useful.

      Good info here:
      https://covid19-insights.squarespace.com/blog/covid19-insights-4

    342. Golfnut says:

      @ Colin Alexander.

      No argument regarding oversight Colin, nor am I in reality defending the Scottish Government, I can’t find the Silver swan report, so I can neither argue for or against.
      There is much talk of 17 recommendations, recommendations normally purport to suggestions on improvement, failures are a completely different matter. The one recommendation I can find regards the reporting of deaths during a pandemic( influenza ) where its implementation has so obviously been used to report Covid 19 deaths and related deaths recorded by NRS.
      I’ll keep looking and see what I can find.
      However, the articles you posted, where three shadow health spokes persons lambasted the SG for actions taken that they were fully aware of at the time, but said nothing. Every lawmaker has an incumbent duty of oversight, which they failed to exercise. If what the government did was wrong, they had a duty to speak out, but didn’t, that was my point.

    343. Millennium says:

      I know Hong Kong is not a country in it’s own right

      The point I was making was that they are gradually being swallowed up by her larger neighbour.

      Something that is happening to Scotland

      The english establishment and their media call protesters in Hong Kong, Pro Democracy protesters.

      But when it comes to Scotland, we are labelled dirty separatist scumbags.

      And what are the english going to do even if China decided to send a million troop into Hong Kong???

      I’ll tell you what the english will do,,SFA.

      The english only go to war with nations who fight back with stones and spears.

      Or when America has their back

      It’s what is known as being a coward

    344. dakk says:

      Dan says:
      22 May, 2020 at 3:56 pm
      Paul Masson vino is a beverage option for any aspiring garden pishers.

      Good shout.

      I think it may have been your good self who also put us onto the utility of moss for garden/alfresco toiletting.

      Would have been helpful if NS, JL or the cop could have offered that up at todays briefing.

    345. jfngw says:

      @ian brotherhood

      So your wind down the language was just meaningless rhetoric, I’m not interested in changing your mind, I don’t believe I’ve ever posted links to ‘prove’ my science is the real science.

      You really don’t like people disagreeing with you, do you. Disagreeing with you is not bullying you. Pointing out what people have posted regarding old people is not bullying you.

      When you post on an open forum ‘Anyone still supporting’ is addressing all on the forum directly or indirectly.

    346. Millennium says:

      The bathrooms are open to the public in stores like ASDA, Morrison’s, BnQ, all garden centres and any large store open to the public by the Scottish government

      So why are these toilets open to thousands of complete strangers, who will have all sorts of deseases???

      Just stating a very relevant fact in this loo debate

    347. Millennium says:

      Had a wee giggle at the actions of the French border patrols in the english channel.

      The english are going crazy because they accuse their french counterparts of not stopping any migrants wishing to make their way to England.

      Gaun yer sel France

      In fact the French are actually encouraging migrants to head for engerland

      I would have done the same

      Pass the problem onto Dover,,,it helps keep Calais empty.

      LOL Viv la France!!!

      Up da englanders

    348. CameronB Brodie says:

      If your policy framework lacks coherence, you’re unlikely to achieve sustainability of economic and social development. The SNP is currently signed up to the global sustainability agenda, but appear unconcerned that Scots are denied access to their “Right to Development”, which Brexit rejects absolutely.

      Implementing policy coherence: A challenge inherent to the 2030 Agenda
      https://ecdpm.org/talking-points/implementing-policy-coherence-challenge-2030-agenda/

    349. jfngw says:

      @Millenium

      Agreed they should be closed, they are more of a risk than anyone’s homes. Presumably this is the stores decision, not sure what the recommendations are here. Why they need them as the cafes are presumably shut I don’t know. Mind you after waiting for 40 minutes one week in a supermarket queue I would definitely recommend going before leaving home.

      I remember a turd sitting in the middle of the toilet floor in ASDA once (The Forge), not relevant just an old reminiscence.

    350. Bipod says:

      @jfngw

      I can’t see anyone in this thread stating that the answer is “just letting the old die”. I see a lot of people refusing to even contemplate the suggestion that lockdown may not be the answer, and the science on it is still undecided, and some are taking it very personally. Backtracking on lockdown means admitting it was a mistake, too many politicians and people in the media are unwilling to do that unfortunately.

      The people who are not vulnerable should be allowed to go on with their normal life’s, and that means lifting the lockdown. Those who are vulnerable or are just not willing to take the risk for whatever reason should self isolate so they don’t catch it.

    351. CameronB Brodie says:

      If the SNP want to support equality, diversity, and sustainability, let alone self-determination for Scotland, they’ll need to codify a legal respect for biology in their constitution.

      Policy Coherence for Sustainable
      Development 2019

      Empowering People and Insuring
      Inclusive Equality

      HIGHLIGHTS
      https://www.oecd.org/gov/pcsd/policy-coherence-for-sustainable-development-highlights-2019.pdf

    352. Millennium says:

      I am sure the toilet Mr Brotherhood was going to use was a lot more hygenic than any of these open toilets in these huge stores.

      And supermarket toilets don’t get cleaned until the next morning

      So they will officially be minging, desease ridden virus spreaders.

      Infact, I would bet anyone who uses a supermarket toilet will catch a virus far quicker than anyone using Mr Brotherhood’s mates house

      Just stating facts here.

      I would go further, I would advise that if you are going shopping to ASDA to take your own empty bottle with you for all your toilet needs ,,,

      Beat that Nicola!!!

    353. Dan says:

      Friday nicht conundrums:
      Outside Composting Toilets with luxury eco friendly moss asswipes.
      Covid friendly socialising garden conveniences or deadly viral disease harbouring abominations?

    354. liz says:

      @IanBrotherhood my thoughts exactly. If I had a child to bury, I’d be there and the polis could arrest me if they wished.

      I despair that any politician is seen as infallible, the NS thank you thing, does remind me of a cult. People seem to have lost the ability to think for themselves.

      When you suggest if people don’t have any symptoms, have self isolated for probably 2 months now, that they should be safe, the response is – what if they’re asymptomatic, it’s crazy.

      The biggest death rate has been in care homes. Those poor people shut off from all contact with friends and family and dying alone, it’s barbaric.

      I have believed for sometime that NS is a control freak, this 12 week loosening of restrictions is typical of her.

    355. jfngw says:

      @bipod

      Let’s be clear – the vast majority of deaths are with old people (myself), and of those, mostly in care homes where it is mostly dementia patients who are just parked with no quality of life.
      A slightly earlier demise is probably a blessing

      Pete made this comment 11:57am, so no it’s not directly lets let the old die, it’s more lets let the old and costly to look after die, we are doing it in their best interest

    356. Col.Blimp IV says:

      jfngw

      It is a well trodden path – Taylor, Rifkind, Ancrum. But I can’t think of any Labour victims of the Great Unionist Cull taking it

      Patriotic Scots? – Or did the English just not want them?

    357. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Just realised that ‘you can go and see yer pal in the garden’ isn’t applicable until next Thursday.

      Huh?

      What is that all about?

      It’s a Bank Holiday weekend. What do the SG’s scientific advisors know about what’s happening between now and next Thursday that makes it impossible to allow that ‘easing of restrictions’ to happen tomorrow?

      This isn’t about public health – it’s about governmental face-saving.

      Here’s an article which will be too much for some because it raises an obvious and disturbing parallel with SG behaviour generally. ‘Alert readers’ will note that the author uses almost the same quotes from Big Brother highlighted in a WOS post very recently.

      https://network23.org/paulcudenec/2020/05/21/money-lies-and-power/

    358. Dogbiscuit says:

      Bob Mack,I’m trying to get you to think about the dangers of fascistic, Government overreach into every private area of our lives but more importantly,I want the lurkers to think also.By the way ,good day to all lurkers.

    359. dakk says:

      Covid friendly socialising garden conveniences or deadly viral disease harbouring abominations?

      So long as well battened down for the gales, maybe a goer.

      Otherwise it’s an aerosolised abomination of a superspreader.

    360. Dogbiscuit says:

      Capella,closing the toilet lid before flushing keeps the spray in the bowl.

    361. Joe says:

      To clarify for honest readers, the single biggest problem with the narrative we are being given in my opinion comes when we compare infection rates (not death rates) for countries v government policy.

      Using statistics from:

      https://www.statista.com/statistics/1043366/novel-coronavirus-2019ncov-cases-worldwide-by-country/

      and:

      https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/population-by-country/

      We can calculate the following infection rates as of 22nd May 2020:

      Sweden: 0.32% (no lockdown)
      Turkey: 0.18% (partial lockdown)
      China: 0.006% (country of origin. Ignored outbreak for days including massive new year celebrations and CCP lied about the outbreak while allowing international flights out of Wuhan)

      USA: 0.49% (lockdown)
      UK: 0.37 (lockdown)

      This by itself is surely curious. It warrants some explanation. We simply cannot say ‘its because the government was inefficient with lockdown’ because we are comparing with countries who did far less as a matter of policy.

      But you have to couple these statistics with the controversies regarding the categorizing of symptoms before testing was widely available.

      You could say – well maybe those countries aren’t testing so that’s why the numbers are low. But then if this virus is what we have been led to believe then surely these countries should be suffering from a health crisis?

      https://www.statista.com/statistics/1105914/coronavirus-death-rates-worldwide/

      Well, clearly their death rates have not been too adversely affected either.

      For me this is a glaring problem. If we look at the change of our society from an open one with health sovereignty, individual liberties and rights to privacy to what we are facing, coupled with the economic damage done i cannot see why anyone wouldn’t be at least somewhat troubled.

      Further: given what we have learned about the British Army’s activities (outright, proper, literal fascism btw) via units such as 77th Brigade and their intention to close down open and honest conversation regarding Coronavirus do we believe that the premier Scottish Independence blog wouldn’t be in line for some attention? If it would then can we see any signs of this in the comments sections?

      No doubt they will have something to say about this very post. Its in their job description.

    362. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m not happy about lock-down, as the initial response was tardy and inadequate. Covid-19 is a real public health threat and it is our moral obligation to adhere to reasonable requests to moderate our behaviour. It is unreasonable to call for a relaxation until there is adequate preparation and evidence that the level of risk is acceptible.

      SDG Watch Europe Steering Group Statement on Covid-19 April 7, 2020
      SDG Watch Europe is an EU-level, cross-sectoral CSO alliance of NGOs from development, environment, social, human rights and other sectors. The mission of SDG Watch Europe is to work to ensure that the EU and its member states fully implement the SDGs by 2030.

      Pandemics do not respect national boundaries. As COVID-19 continues to create unprecedented impact across the globe, emergency measures are being introduced – the consequences of which will have a long-term impact upon our societies. As policymakers introduce measures to ensure emergency relief and long-term resilience, SDG Watch Europe calls for all EU institutions to manage the crisis with unity and solidarity, putting people and planet at the centre of all policies: ….

      https://www.sdgwatcheurope.org/documents/2020/04/sdg-watch-europe-steering-group-statement-on-covid-19.pdf/

    363. jfngw says:

      Spot the unlikely word in this sentence “Boris Johnson, thought for a long time about”. This was regarding EU health workers.

      Then he “thought for a long time about” again and reversed his decision.

      A man of principal if ever I’ve seen one, worrying about spaffing money up the wall.

    364. jfngw says:

      Some journalist thinks he has found a scoop in a SAGE document:

      “Contract tracing is not practical once there are large numbers of cases”

      I think most of us worked that out a couple of months ago, it stating the bleeding obvious.

    365. Richard James Robertson says:

      I thought that a while back but there are 2 SAGE`s. One is the official one that hasn`t met for about a month and seems to agree with the WM Govt line (probably due to being appointed for that purpose) and an Independent SAGE which has produced a report which takes apart the official advice. This is the one that is critical of the WM Govt approach.

    366. terence callachan says:

      Millennium……..hong Kong has always been part of China
      U.K. only had a hundred year lease

      China don’t need to invade Hong Kong they already own it

      Your comparison of Hong Kong and China and Scotland and England is not logical but I get your drift about bigger neighbour

      The other thing about Scotland being a colony of England is again factually wrong but again I get your drift

      England treat Scotland like a colony but Scotland is factually not a colony f England documents are important across the world and documentation shows Scotland and England in union

      Like it or not we have to accept that union was agreed and is legal

      We feel as if we in Scotland are a colony England treats us like a colony
      But we are not a colony

      Chin up stand your ground we are Scottish and will determine our own future
      And the declaration of Arbroath said

      As lng as there be but one hundred of us we shall never submit ourselves or our country to the dominion of the English

      That still stands

    367. ahundredthidiot says:

      Care Home Staff.

      A fella I know is a Unionist (but we’ll leave that to one side) and his mother died in a care home last week of natural causes – of course, he hadn’t been permitted to see her for a while, but I would like to share what the care staff did;

      Knowing that the funeral directors will not embalm any body and instead whap them straight into a body bag as they collect (and then straight into a coffin) told my friend – on the phone as she was actually telling him about the death – to quickly get her best frock and bring it straight to the care home.

      This care worker then undressed, cleaned and re-dressed his mum before the funeral directors came to collect – she stayed on past the end of her shift to do it. She even made an effort to make up her face.

      A hero, yes, ticket to heaven, very probably, but how did it come to this…..

    368. Millennium says:

      terence callachan

      Did you read my post about comparing Hong Kong and Scotland

      And then you post a reply that has nothing to do with what I actually wrote

      I know of one comparison that there is no doubts about what so ever,,, and that is the one between you and a wanker

      Like two peas in a pod.

      Now fuck off and annoy some other poor bastard

      Another one of those pesky Flat Earthers no doubt

      Away and Facebook Capella

    369. Sensibledave says:

      Millenium 4.24

      … what a load of codswallop!

      The slight difference that you seem to have ignored .. is that the majority of Scottish voters voted to Remain part of the UK!

      As many of here have been doing for years, if not generations, you fail to see that which is directly in front of you. People in England didn’t vote for Scotland to stay part of the UK, not did the Welsh, the people of NI. Westminster, non Scottish liberals, labour or Tories… none of them.

      Just Scots.

      It is them that you have to convince. What is it Millenium, that so many Scots find so unattractive about the thought of Independence. Maybe it’s people like you?

    370. liz says:

      You can’t visit your pal in their garden till next Thursday. HaaHaHaHa

      At the risk of people reporting someone I know to the statsi, she’s been inviting people into her garden for at least a month on nice days.

      We’re not stupid.

    371. Millennium says:

      Sensible Dave

      It is here we are in complete agreement,,, Sturgeon has to go

      It’s only by doing that that we will see a true fight for Scottish Independence

    372. Colin Alexander says:

      Golfnut @4.22pm

      said: “However, the articles you posted, where three shadow health spokes persons lambasted the SG for actions taken that they were fully aware of at the time, but said nothing. Every lawmaker has an incumbent duty of oversight, which they failed to exercise. If what the government did was wrong, they had a duty to speak out, but didn’t, that was my point”.

      It’s a good point and well put. So, well said, Golfnut.

    373. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Further to other reports about quiet hospitals, here’s one I was sent directly by someone who used to be a regular in this place. (Redactions are mine)

      I’m attending (name of hospital redacted) as usual for (redacted) treatment and the place is half empty every time I attend, a nurse told me that they only have about 5 Covid19 patients none of whom are critical.

    374. robbo says:

      I would agree with you there on that one Mr dave! So there you have it.

      Omg am a sturgonista, a flat earther an Snp baddie,the list goes on.

      Time to call it a day me thinks now.

      ahunfrethidiot and joe, and the rest of the frauds ,Dug,Millenium, Mist001,just as my parting shot.What about Mongolia?

      I did post this earlier today- posted by scozzie late last night
      on the previous thread and re-posted by me earlier today here.

      https://medium.com/@indica/covid-underdogs-mongolia-3b0c162427c2

      Not a peep from anyone.

      Seems that’s just not how to do it it seems.Too much bother that, caring for another human being and keeping as many people alive as possible,it’s the economy rules.

      GIFRU-

    375. CameronB Brodie says:

      Not so sensible dave is determined to value the result of a dodgy advisory referendum in 2014, over anotther dodgy advisory referendum in 2016. In the first one, Scots voted marginally to remain in the UK, on the promise of significant democratic gains for Scotland. In the second one, Scotland resoundingly rejected English ethnic nationalism, and voted to remain in the EU. English Torydum has decided differently though, and now seeks to remove Scotland from the EU.

      So not so sensible dave is either terminally thick, congenitally obtuse, or is simply trying to troll us.

      Covid-19 hurts the vulnerable most. So does Brexit
      https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2020/03/30/covid-19-hurts-the-vulnerable-most-so-does-brexit/

    376. Ottomanboi says:

      As June is the beginning of the annual LGBTQI + parading season, will there be an indult, a good Scots word, from Bute House to permit the theys to indulge in community propinquity?

    377. Pete says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      It’s exactly the same in the Forth Valley Hospital.
      A complete scandal.

    378. Graeme says:

      Millennium says:
      22 May, 2020 at 3:32 pm

      terence callachan

      In case you have been living up your arse for the past 300 years,, Scotland has been an English Colony since 1707

      —————————————————————–

      Scotland is not colony and has never been a colony we just allow ourselves to be treated as one

    379. robbo says:

      Oh feck a forgot the Pete lol

      Aye the Englishman,living in Scotland collecting plenty of freebies,votes Tory and Hope’s Scotland never gets independence because that would be inconvienant to his & hers life style.

      Now bye

    380. jfngw says:

      Poor old Jackson Carlaw, thought he was the Lamborghini of the Tory Party just to find out the MSM see him as a Robin Reliant. They choose the Sherman over him to appear on their shows.

    381. ahundredthidiot says:

      Ian B @ 6:54

      Supported by the sole pharma distribution centre in Scotland standing down nightshifts and introducing ‘footfall’ – a practice whereby day staff are given paid days off, not affecting their holiday entitlement.

      If this was the US, there would be lay offs. Meds are simply not moving anywhere close to normal levels. people with cancers and organ issues might ask what this means for them as we are slow to re-open hospitals.

      I do not say this lightly, but we are now in the process whereby we are literally murdering our own citizens. I have said it before, but worth repeating, I look after an elderly gentleman who survived, through quick action, throat cancer and therefore subject to regular check ups – the NHS called to cancel his appointments and provided MacMillan phone numbers instead.

      In other words, stay home and die, COVID is more important than you.

    382. ahundredthidiot says:

      robbo at 7pm

      I wouldn’t even take the effort to stand on your throat for 5 minutes. You can join the rest of them on the scroll by list.

    383. ahundredthidiot says:

      Robbo/Rev

      Apologies for the rash comment.

    384. CameronB Brodie says:

      Chemist deliver prescriptions to your door.

    385. CameronB Brodie says:

      This is somewhat tiresome but not unexpected, so here’s some international law.

      Part I: Due Diligence and COVID-19: States’ Duties to Prevent and Halt the Coronavirus Outbreak
      https://www.ejiltalk.org/part-i-due-diligence-and-covid-19-states-duties-to-prevent-and-halt-the-coronavirus-outbreak/

    386. Golfnut says:

      The real problem isnt Coronavirus, its what this guy says.

      https://www.facebook.com/958477034169215/posts/3531774950172731/

      How to fix it though might be harder than getting

    387. Sensibledave says:

      Cammy:

      You reproduce your s**t and your Boring, s**t links so often, you have completely revised history!

      Your personal interpretations of two very simple questions are “ In the first one, Scots voted marginally to remain in the UK, on the promise of significant democratic gains for Scotland. In the second one, Scotland resoundingly rejected English ethnic nationalism, and voted to remain in the EU. English Torydum has decided differently though, and now seeks to remove Scotland from the EU.”

      No.

      Q1 … which you grudgingly accepted and then glossed over was … do you (Scots) want to be Independent or not? Nothing else.

      Q2 … do you want the UK to remain in the Eu or Leave. Nothing else. In this Uk referendum 17m People voted to Leave and the good folk of South Oxfordshire and many other Tory “shires” (and Scotland) were democratically outvoted.

      If the people of Scotland wanted Independence they would have voted for it. Why didn’t they? Your argument seems to be something to do with “English Torydum“!!!

      You are a very confused, pseudo intellectual bigot (have I mentioned that before?).

    388. Dan says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      Genuine btl commenters are part of a spectrum of autonomous individuals. Some will be very knowledgeable in their specific fields, but they may lack comprehension in other areas because they have been focused on the narrow remits they specialise in.
      Whilst others may have the ability to see an array of more general interacting aspects playing out in a wider context.

      As individuals we are free to state our views here, but when a group in power with the responsibility that goes with that position has to form an agreed response that best serves a society made up of millions of people, things become far more difficult.
      So many factors and influences come in to play. There’s not enough hours in the day for each individual, and also collectively as a group, to fully comprehend all the relevant subject matter required to be 100% correct on a policy. Especially so when dealing with a new event or circumstances which have unknown aspects.
      Erring on the cautionary side affords us the time to live and learn rather than crash and burn.
      It is a difficult balance, and it may well be you and others are correct that lockdown could have been eased by now because you’ve had the time and freedom to work it out. Contrast that with a multitude of magnolia, party whip constrained, careerist politicians, all calculating their own angles through the filtered matrix of information from their own sources and SPADs, and it’s easier to see why the wheels turn slowly.

    389. CameronB Brodie says:

      Not so sensible dave wants folk to ignore this link, which suggests HMG is culpable of breaching international law. That’s no great event in Brexitanian legal practice though, this is Westminster’s default position.

      Sensibledave
      You are sneering at international law you dickhead,

      Part I: Due Diligence and COVID-19: States’ Duties to Prevent and Halt the Coronavirus Outbreak
      https://www.ejiltalk.org/part-i-due-diligence-and-covid-19-states-duties-to-prevent-and-halt-the-coronavirus-outbreak/

    390. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Ian B 5.13: thanks for the link to the Paul Cudenec article. Sums up many people’s fears about the direction we could well be heading in: a longish read but worth it.

      But they wouldn’t, would they? Would they?

    391. Sensibledave says:

      CBB

      … you just keep demonstrating to everyone how confused and dumb you are.

      You wrote a comment. I replied to it . Then you completely change the subject whilst attempting to link the two!

      Honestly Cammykins, I think this is all too much for you. See if you can find a learned paper on “pseudo intellectuals, and why they don’t know their a””e from their elbow”. Maybe you were a case study?

    392. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sensibledave
      You’re argument is grounded in cultural prejudiced that is impervious to reason, so it requires no serious consideration. You could always argue against any of my valid legal concerns though, if you are capable that is.

    393. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry for the typos, but that’s what happens when you post and head-bang at the same time. And the band played on.

      A democratic outrage: Scotland’s constitutional position and Brexit
      https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/scotlands-constitutional-position-and-brexit/

    394. twathater says:

      There are a few updates on the Forward as One court case I would ask people to get behind Martin as he at least is doing SOMETHING to try getting us out of this shite union

      //r.mail.crowdjustice.co.uk/mk/mr/tR61fc0lZ3xTy18K3Kh_MNwK8ZIYXDItzsxv_9u-2BxsEzPD8DRFsQ79ZquzouDLxbmQdJ2ec3NKGi6RV2cAZgqz6qvQ-b1yjL1qfHcIIgljYiFXpxML

      //r.mail.crowdjustice.co.uk/mk/mr/hHH_oWs4lcjPFfbwKZxdBEh67h0QdCSsJFMANmF9B0dpi78fyugET6bCLz2vVWtO8yfeGhQrU2fRKvIEs9FTgI_JoBwu9tXf0-Zh7PW6KSfpy7uhYUTJ

      //r.mail.crowdjustice.co.uk/mk/mr/2Z9yPH332bxLFGSQuul1GBtTBQlNzi4L8l5Oox4zz51kqEj3myfH_Z8OKvJag13qjtCajE_G-3aRbs1iUCxxvyOxLBLdTLUXHuvk5YxV-shC8nwuTMza

    395. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Hackalumpoff and Ian Brotherhood.

      IMOHO…
      I surmise that there are a gaggle of BTL commenters who did not wake up in the early hours, their brain having detected a nuance.
      Rather, they have been up, well after their bedtime, and all the nuances flying around, flew right over their heads.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4Oz4Cihhss

    396. Millennium says:

      Greame FFS

      I know Scotland is not a Colony of engerland,,, it’s a figure of speech that has been used on this site since it was set up

      Jesus fuckin hell

      Not another Flat Earther???

    397. Millennium says:

      The Flat Earthers are falling fast.

      They won’t be missed

      Let’s hope Sturgeon and her inner circle fall just as fast

    398. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Dan (8.11) –

      Cheers.

      I appreciate what you write because it should remind all of us that none of us have perfect knowledge of what’s happening. That extends to the politicians, the civil servants, the medical people. Everyone. I haven’t listened to every one of the FM’s updates but in those I did hear she always seems to make a point of underlining – repeatedly – how uncertain everything is and expresses her own frustration at not being expert on specific aspects.

      That’s why it’s all so frustrating for everyone. Even here, where discussion tends, for the most part, to be civil, it’s become really fractious over the past few weeks. Everything seems so polarised, extreme – I don’t hear voices reflecting the uncertainty Nicola Sturgeon references so frequently. It seems that we’re all cast as belonging to one camp or t’other depending on whether or not we follow ‘the rules’ and that’s where some of us take issue with the FM and her advisers.

      To be blunt about it, the rules don’t make sense, never have, and cannot ever make sense in terms of effective ‘lockdown’ because the proverbial bolted months ago. No political leader should expect citizens to follow rules which are blatantly flouted by a select few. Catherine Calderwood’s forced resignation now seems a tad cruel given that everyone knows folk who have regularly ignored the same rules she transgressed. The overriding impression, to many folk who may well be interested in current affairs but have a healthy suspicion of ‘authority’, is that the current regime is more about style than substance.

      If I may copy your final paragraph:

      ‘…a multitude of magnolia, party whip constrained, careerist politicians, all calculating their own angles through the filtered matrix of information from their own sources and SPADs…’

      That description, right there, encapsulates the nature of the characters who have disgusted so many indy supporters and brought the SNP into disrepute. The same characters who would have been celebrating had Alex Salmond been sent to spend the rest of his life inside prison for ‘crimes’ he didn’t commit and, one suspects, would *still* see him condemned and ruined, even post-judgement. These are not noble people, pursuing a vocation to serve ‘the public’. They serve only themselves and their pals and will do anything – anything – to make that happen. To such people, who would destroy an innocent man’s life and reputation forever, mere compliance with a highly suspect narrative is hardly likely to cause sleepless nights, not least because they know, from long experience, that the vast majority of citizens simply don’t give enough of a fuck to scrutinise their behaviour in any way.

    399. callmedave says:

      Hmm!

      Cummings not goings!

      Coronavirus:

      Dominic Cummings visited parents’ home while he had symptoms

      https://archive.is/jSb5G

    400. Graeme says:

      Millennium says:
      22 May, 2020 at 9:37 pm

      Greame FFS

      I know Scotland is not a Colony of engerland,,, it’s a figure of speech that has been used on this site since it was set up

      Jesus fuckin hell

      Not another Flat Earther???

      ———————————————————

      I was making the point it’s our own fault we’re treated like a colony, I wasn’t contradicting you get over yourself you fucking prick

    401. ahundredthidiot says:

      Dan @ 8:11

      All valid.

      But if you go high enough you get to one man. One.

      Trouble is, she’s loving this.

    402. CameronB Brodie says:

      The art of law is the rational path out of lock-down. This is a time of crises when the Scottish government must confirm its’ legal respect for the human genome and international human rights. Not pretend British nationalist human rights.

      Law and ethics in the time of COVID-19
      https://blogs.bmj.com/medical-ethics/2020/04/29/law-and-ethics-in-the-time-of-covid-19/

    403. Tinto Chiel says:

      @BDTT 9.02: thanks for that absolute classic: so long since I heard it and yet strangely relevant today.

    404. Beaker says:

      @callmedave says:
      22 May, 2020 at 9:45 pm
      Hmm!
      Cummings not goings!

      I don’t know. The political pressure on Boris is going to be massive, and hopefully it just might be enough to get rid of him.

      At every briefing from Downing Street from now on, let the first question be “has Cummings resigned yet?”.

    405. Joe says:

      @ Tinto Chiel

      Since we are on the topic of power, control and Orwell i have to add that there are very many clues in the early 20th century as to what would come next. While Orwell was definitely a smart and knowledgeable man who did us all a service it didn’t actually require a genius to work out that power was concentrating into the hands of people who had a very particular world view.

      What is most interesting is how these warning signs have been sanitized from history lessons and common culture. The trouble is, once you start looking into it you find yourself on dangerous ground.

      I am making an effort here to not give any trouble to WOS so if it seems im a little too vague then I apologise.

      If we take a step back from our own personal biases and look at the last few decades and the political/cultural issues – from mass immigration, political correctness, hate speech, censorship and all the stuff you can’t speak about honestly without mainstream culture calling you a fascist. The destruction of the family unit through lopsided divorce courts. From radical feminists and man hatred to trans rights which essentially amounts to woman hatred. The pushing of ‘diversity’ of race and sex but never the diversity of thought. Think of the similarity of unpopular and authoritarian Scottish government policies to places like Canada, New Zealand, Australia and Europe.

      Now here is an abridged quote from a book written in 1915 called ‘The Spirit of Militarism’:

      ‘The historical mission of our world revolution is to rearrange a new culture of humanity to replace the previous social system. This conversion and re-organisation of global society requires two essential steps: firstly, the destruction of the old established order, secondly, design and imposition of the new order. The first stage requires elimination of all frontier borders, nationhood and culture, public policy, ethical barriers and social definitions, only then can the destroyed old system elements be replaced by the imposed system elements of our new order.
      The first task of our world revolution is Destruction. All social strata and social formations created by traditional society must be annihilated, individual men and women must be uprooted from their ancestral environment, torn out of their native environments, no tradition of any type shall be permitted to remain as sacred, traditional social norms must only be viewed as a disease to be eradicated, the ruling dictum of the new order is; nothing is good so everything must be criticized and abolished, everything that was, must be gone.
      After destruction of the old order, construction of the new order is a larger and more difficult task. We will have torn out the old limbs from their ancient roots in deep layers, social norms will be lying disorganized and anarchic so they must be blocked against new cultural forms and social categories naturally re-emerging. The general masses will have been first persuaded to join as equals in the first task of destroying their own traditional society and economic culture, but then the new order must be forcibly established through people again being divided and differentiated only in accordance with the new pyramidal hierarchical system of our imposed global monolithic new world order’

      Now read that in context of Orwell and the kind of laws and actions of governments today.

      Interestingly people look at the Nazi’s for this kind of thing. Which isn’t too misguided given that Nazi Germany was a very sophisticated dictatorship with ties to American and British money. However its much more enlightening to look into the depths of the Bolshevik revolution and the early USSR for the ugly truth. This isn’t all that easy for which becomes clear once some things are revealed. Winston Churchill can be of help here (for all the war mongering liar he actually was).

    406. Ian Brotherhood says:

      An excellent read here, helps explain why so many of us are wary of authority and the real motives underlying most forms of control.

      (Includes frequent references to the Highland Clearances, as originally documented/cited by Prebble.)

      https://network23.org/paulcudenec/2016/06/07/the-dispossessed/#comment-90

    407. Millennium says:

      Cummings should have been charged

    408. Golfnut says:

      Boris not following ‘sage’ advice. Wonder how often that has happened.

      https://www.facebook.com/groups/1081934212006008/permalink/1312183652314395/

      Contrary to Ruth Davidson’s claims, Scotland’s First Minister isn’t just following the Prime Minister of England.

    409. Mike d says:

      Sensibledave 6.46pm. Yeah your right,people in England didn’t vote for Scotland to stay part of the UK.but English people in Scotland did.now f**k off you dickhead.

    410. CameronB Brodie says:

      I appreciate that most folk are struggling to come to terms with having to give up their liberty, but I not punting bad intelligence. Lock-sown is the most ethical thing to do right now, though we must remain vigilant as Westminster does not respect the rule-of-law. Full text.

      Cancer, COVID-19 and the precautionary principle: prioritizing treatment during a global pandemic
      During the COVID-19 global pandemic, the cancer community faces many difficult questions. We will first discuss safety considerations for patients with cancer requiring treatment in SARS-CoV-2 endemic areas. We will then discuss a general framework for prioritizing cancer care, emphasizing the precautionary principle in decision making….

      https://www.nature.com/articles/s41571-020-0362-6

    411. Millennium says:

      And the Police tell Boris that he has no charges to answer, after being let off the hook yesterday for giving many thousands of pounds to some American business woman out of the London Budget.

      She dropped her pants

      He gives her money out of public funds

      Police say “Nothing to see here ladies and gentlemen, move along please”.

      One rule for Boris and his gang and another rule for the less fortunate.

      This is the guy engerland voted into office less than six months ago.

      Starting to unravel very very quickly.

    412. Millennium says:

      Cummings is meant to be one of the architects of the “Stay Alert” message that the Tories came up with in favour of the old “Stay Home” message.

      Cummings ignoring his own advice

    413. Millennium says:

      These clowns that are running Downing St have the utter cheek to deny Scotland a referendum on choosing where our future lies.

      Sturgeon better capitalize on this,,, it’s the least she could do.

    414. bipod says:

      I see that another government advisor, and architect of the lockdown policy and fear campaign has been caught ignoring the rules he helped setup. Why is it that so many government advisors and officials don’t seem to believe fear propaganda that they put out?

    415. Sensibledave says:

      Mike 10.47

      Ah! Bigotry and profanity.

      Maybe you could share your definition of someone that should. be allowed the privilege of having a vote in Scotland. Does it include phrases like “pure bred”? I think it’s been tried before. It didn’t end well.

      Congratulations! You are neck and neck with Cammy for “dickhead comment of the month” award

    416. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Joe 10.37: if you’re warning generally of the dangers of authoritarianism, then I would agree. If you were on the receiving end of either Nazism or Stalinism, I think your experience would be similarly grim. The Russian revolution at least began with laudable motives, whereas Nazism was irredeemably evil in both its conceptions and results.

      I haven’t heard of the text you quote but prima facie it looks like the kind of thing one associates with Deep State fruit loops whom we hope do not actually exist but worry that they might. I remember a quotation from George Bush senior who said that, if the people of America knew what their poltical elite had got up to, he and others would be hanging from lamp posts. Whether this was a reference to the JFK assassination or other outrages is not clear.

      Unfortunately, as a Winger pointed out recently, ex-POUM George Orwell, scourge of the Communist Party, was in his declining years, not averse to list-making and clyping himself, which is disappointing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orwell%27s_list

    417. hackalumpoff says:

      Brian Doonthetoon 9:02 pm
      My Yoda was he.
      Saw me through.
      Hard times.

    418. CameronB Brodie says:

      There appears to some strange meeting of minds going on in here.

      Smells Like Trump Spirit
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJDqfVC7aoA

    419. Dan says:

      @Ian Brotherhood at 9:41 pm

      Aye, I’d noticed the tone change btl over past few weeks. Presumably this is borne out of all the differing frustrations we are all dealing with at this time.
      The mounting stresses being endured across our society were also confirmed in other conversations I’ve had with folk working in health services, as they were saying they are unfortunately seeing an upturn in folk requiring assistance for mental health and self harm issues.

      I’m stuck in a bit of a quandary myself as pre lockdown “normal” life was far from perfect for a multitude of reasons with ongoing inequality along with rampant consumption of resources and to hang with cleaning up the mess we create.
      I was hoping this virus situation would act as a catalyst for folk to finally wake from their comatose states and notice the trajectory they were allowing themselves to be taken down. Yet I see folk seemingly itching to go back to that previous normal life…

      I’ve wound down posting much as busy cracking on with life in my own local community. There is loads to do from assisting neighbours with tasks, tending my own garden, assisting at local farm, building a savonius wind turbine, making an irrigation pump from scrap and powering it off a VW engine I’ve converted to run on gas because it is cheaper to run and has cleaner emissions than burning petrol or diesel.

      I’m pretty near the point where I don’t consent to any of the shit we see playing out in our politics or our courts. What specific mandate did we give the Scottish Government Administration to bung the struggling “news”papers a wad of our cash. What specific mandates did we hand them to go with this Hate Speech Bill, or GRA. Whilst the numerous mandates we did actually hand them are being ignored.
      How the fuck can I or anyone with any integrity or moral judgement still be a member of a political party that sat on serious allegations rather than reporting them so they could be used for leverage at some point in the future.

      If the twats had actually stopped Scotland getting taken out of the EU against our will like we were told then I wouldn’t be giving them such are hard time, coz I’d most likely be fucking off away from Scotland that the weirdos in charge seem to want to turn in to the bar from Star Wars.
      It looks like they can’t even be bothered to put a stick in the spokes of England’s “Brexit” to at least put down a marker that Scotland’s resources aren’t Westminster’s to negotiate trade deals with.

    420. hackalumpoff says:

      @ Dan 23 May, 2020 at 12:15 am

      Missed you,
      So right,
      You are.

    421. ahundredthidiot says:

      Dan @12:15

      Superb post. Couldn’t agree more.

    422. ahundredthidiot says:

      Meanwhile over in the States, Trump is threatening to over-rule the Governors.

      And not before time. Our freedom, once again, is reliant on Americans.

      In anyones books, like him or hate him, he is without doubt, the best US President since WW2.

    423. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Dan –

      I echo previous thanks for that post. Nice note to end the night on, for me anyway, as the scratcher beckons.

      Hope to see much more from you sah!

      😉

    424. Colin Alexander says:

      Craig Murray is asking people to apply to view his case management hearing online on 10 June 2020, which I believe will be live streamed.

      This is the email address to apply to register:

      judicialcomms [at] scotcourts [dot] gov [dot] uk

      I believe Craig Murray’s case reference number is: HCA/2020-06/XM
      so it’s a good idea to include that in your application email and the date of the hearing: 10 June 2020 .

      He also asks that you put your own messages out on Twitter, Facebook etc with a link to his blog (not retweets):

      https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/

      Let’s do this for Craig Murray, when he’s done so much for Scotland’s freedom and for human rights.

    425. Iain More says:

      “ahundredthidiot says:
      23 May, 2020 at 12:36 am

      Meanwhile over in the States, Trump is threatening to over-rule the Governors.

      And not before time. Our freedom, once again, is reliant on Americans.

      In anyones books, like him or hate him, he is without doubt, the best US President since WW2.”

      Can I have what you are smoking? He is close to feckin having murdered 100,000 Americans so far. Hate to think what the death toll would be if you thought he was the worst.

    426. ahundredthidiot says:

      me @ 12:36

      gotta feed the lefty liberal fuckwits…….it’s good sport if anything!

    427. ahundredthidiot says:

      Iain More

      Well, JFK for starters – Vietnam War.

      Or do you think Trump has done worse??

    428. ahundredthidiot says:

      and Iain

      you were probably one of the dimwits calling him a racist prick for shutting out flights from China….how is that with hindsight – good or bad?

    429. ahundredthidiot says:

      I am happy bashing Trump

      Just not happy mindlessly bashing Trump

      Particularly at the say so of MSM

    430. ahundredthidiot says:

      Iain More

      ‘Hate to think what the death toll would be if you thought he was the worst.’

      oh, jeez, where to start, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, South America, Korea ffs!….

      ….you people are so fucking deluded it is unbelievable.

      Trump says no more Troops in the middle east, brings them home and war fools cry foul (the ones who have never seen the result of a gun shot or a bombing btw!), there literally is no helping you.

      Unless you apologise quickly shut the fuck up.

    431. CameronB Brodie says:

      As if I pay attention to the MSM. Want to understand Trump’s mind?

      The Cognitive Neuroscience of Narcissism
      https://www.imedpub.com/articles/the-cognitive-neuroscience-of-narcissism.php?aid=22149

    432. Iain More says:

      ahundredthidiot says:

      You really are a right wing nutjob arent you. You have a particularly blinkered Yoon outlook on interpreting history.

      JFK isn’t to blame for Vietnam. Johnson.Nixon are the ones to blame for that. Ronnie helped bring down the Berlin Wall. I think it was Eisenhower’s blunders that gave you Yoons Nuke weapons that you couldn’t use and got you to pay for them. You Yoons make him look like great genius.

      Oh and I have never called Trump a Racist.

      Trump is a long way from finished. Give him a chance to start a war as he is clearly looking to do so. Oh and I have cousin whose youngest son is Iraq right now. Yank troops brought home = Aye fuckin Right!!!

      You are happy bashing Trump – Aye Right! Arse licking Trump mare like by the sounds of it! I do like bashing right wing nut job cunt faces! It gives me something to do whilst I observe the lock down and respect the lives of my fellow Scots. I don’t number you in that league. I think the death toll in USA is closer to 200,000 and rising. That means go fuck yourself cunt face.

    433. Bruce Wallace says:

      Around 3 or 4 years ago the BBC News anounced that Porton Down had relaxed the rules on something to do with viruses, does anyone remember this or seen it aswell, any links or info would be appreciated.

    434. ahundredthidiot says:

      oh Iain, I do feel sorry for you.

      you are in for the shock I received a few years ago, JFK is absolutely responsible for Vietnam.

      Do your research mate. Might want to start with Noam Chomsky on US Presidents who should’ve been impeached (spoiler alert, all of them up to about 2000).

      and btw, your language is just terrible muiral!

    435. ahundredthidiot says:

      Iain More

      another keyboard tough guy talking pish across the spineless void of the internet – real big man talk that is……

    436. ahundredthidiot says:

      Bruce Wallace

      No, I am afraid not, however, I can say this with absolute certainty, Porton Down paid well. (many years ago) I was tempted myself just on daily rate alone – now, imagine those with a gambling problem.

      The lads who went, never came back – and I am not being all daft like they disappeared – all I mean is, once they were in that mix, it is difficult to get out.

      Terrible to say, but it’s true, they preyed on boys who came from the institutions (like orphanges/homes).

    437. CameronB Brodie says:

      Let’s see who’s going to pan this and claim their own private liberty more important than global public health and civic integrity.

      COVID?19 STRATEGY UPDATE
      FOREWORD
      Overcoming COVID?19

      It has now been more than 100 days since WHO was notified of the first cases of what we now call COVID?19, and much has changed since we launched the first Strategic Preparedness and Response Plan two months ago.

      As of 13 April, more than 1.7 million people have been infected, and almost 85 000 people have lost their lives. WHO grieves with all families who have lost a loved one, and salutes health workers all over the world who have put themselves in harm’s way every day to save lives.

      The global spread of the virus has overwhelmed health systems, and caused widespread social and economic disruption. By putting societies and economies on hold, we have curtailed the ability of the virus to spread through our communities. These defensive measures have helped to limit some of the short-term impacts of the virus, and bought us time to translate what we have learned about the virus into solutions so that we can get back to a more normal way of living: a new normal.

      We have learned so much about this virus, and we’re still learning. This strategy update is based on the evidence the world has accumulated in the past three months about how COVID?19 spreads, the severity of disease it causes, how to treat it, and how to stop it.

      One of the main things we’ve learned is that the faster all cases are found, tested and isolated, the harder we make it for this virus to spread. This principle will save lives and mitigate the economic impact of the pandemic. This document guides the public health response to COVID?19 at national
      and subnational levels, including practical guidance for strategic action, tailored to the local context.

      This pandemic is much more than a health crisis. It requires a whole-of-government and whole-of-society response. The resolve and sacrifice of frontline health workers must be matched by every individual and every political leader to put in place the measures to end the pandemic. We’re all in this together, and we will only succeed together. There is no time to waste. WHO’s singular focus is on working to serve all people to save lives and stop the pandemic.

      https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/covid-strategy-update-14april2020.pdf?sfvrsn=29da3ba0_19

    438. Joe says:

      @ahundredthidiot

      I understand the frustration. But this blog and its readership do mainly subscribe to a certain worldview. Right now I don’t really care so much. If I can add something factual or that provokes critical thinking then im helping. If i get pissed off (which happens) then im not. We need each other now.

    439. A. Bruce says:

      Iain More: try reading a history book if you can. Kennedy started sending in military aid and military advisors. There were no combat troops sent in but the air force were authorized to use Agent Orange and we know the consequences of that. Did you think that his only legacy was setting up the Peace Corps?

    440. Sinky says:

      Scientists for Labour (?) says Scottish and UK Gov failures over Covid with quote from rent a gob Ian Murray.

      The Labour Welsh government followed the same flawed policies in the early days when UK Sage predicted hundreds of thousands of deaths which resulted in hospitals clearing out elderly patients and testing stopped as there was insufficent capacity and shortage of PPE throughout the whole UK.

      Labour are now playing cheap politics over this.

    441. Golfnut says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood.

      Thanks for the link, great read.
      The state, law, violence, theft, lies and deceit. So relevant today.

    442. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Ian B 10.41: re-read that Dispossessed article and it struck me it would never be published in any MSM form today, which clearly shows the state we’re in. Craig Murray is finding out what unaccountable authority can try to do to those who don’t submit.

      Re the notion of possession of land, some linguists of a romantic outlook have noted Gaelic has no simple verb “to have” (you have to say something is “at you”) and this may stem from the more communitarian culture of the people pre-Clearances.

      The effects in England of the “enclosures” as they are euphemistically called (in effect a massive land-grab with menaces, like the whole British Empire project) usually meant huge changes to the landscape once the people were excluded. Ancient woods could be felled, streams re-routed and buildings demolished by the new proprietor at will.

      The English peasant poet John Clare’s chronic problems with depression and anxiety are often put down to the destruction of the landscape of his boyhood and much of the natural world he studied and loved. Literally and metaphorically he simply lost his bearings.

    443. crazycat says:

      @ Tinto Chiel at 9.51

      Re the notion of possession of land, some linguists of a romantic outlook have noted Gaelic has no simple verb “to have” (you have to say something is “at you”) and this may stem from the more communitarian culture of the people pre-Clearances.

      It’s a feature of Celtic languages in general. In the case of Gaelic it will have been inherited from Irish.

    444. Tinto Chiel says:

      @crazycat: “In the case of Gaelic it will have been inherited from Irish.” You think?

      http://www.electricscotland.com/history/articles/scotsirish.htm

      Since 1974, an interest of mine has been Gaelic place-names Where I Live. I’ve studied aspects of Celtic languages generally since then too so am familiar with the features you mention.

      I contacted the good doctor quite recently to see if he had changed his position on the topic since 2000 and he said, “No.”

      The assertion that Gaelic was brought to Scotland from Ireland and is therefore non-native, is finally losing traction. It was always a claim made by Ulster mediaeval sources, probably for dynastic reasons, which was accepted by “Scottish” historians because there were surviving documents to that effect. One can speculate endlessly about why this should have been so readily accepted.

      Of course, one of the main problems in Scottish historiography is the colossal loss of Scottish documents, charters and other records (owing to repeatedly destructive English invasions) which could have given us a better picture of our history.

    445. Tinto Chiel says:

      I forgot to add, although you said “at me” for possession was a general feature of Celtic languages and (I presume) thus not specific to Gaelic as some “romantic lingusits” had mentioned, it may well be that this communitarian attitude regarding “owning/having” may have been a common attitude among the various Celtic peoples.

    446. crazycat says:

      @ Tinto Chiel

      Sorry for taking so long to get back to you – I was diverted.
      Yes, I think the communitarian ideals were more general. I had drafted a sentence to that effect for my first post, but then it tied itself in knots so I just deleted it.

      In Gaelic, “where are you from?” translates literally is “who are you from?”, putting ancestry ahead of place. That cuts both ways for the communitarian argument, perhaps, since place is usually considered important, magnifying the impact of the Clearances, for instance.

      I’ve come across that article by Ewan Campbell before; I’ve skim-(re)read it (because it’s late). I have no issues with the idea that there was no large-scale movement of people from Ireland to Scotland in the period to which that is sometimes attributed.

      Nevertheless, I am going to hold out on the language evolution theory. The Goidelic language currently referred to as Scottish Gaelic (I can’t do the right accents here, otherwise I’d give it its own name) evolved from a language (referred to as Irish, though it is not the modern version) which was spoken across Ireland, parts of Scotland, and the Isle of Man until its dialects diverged sufficiently for them to be considered 3 languages.

      That is not inconsistent with EC’s contention about the language. He cannot possibly be asserting that Gaelic hasn’t changed since the Iron Age. So it can have begun in Ireland and spread. Or vice versa, though he doesn’t provide any evidence for that.

    447. Tinto Chiel says:

      @crazycat: I wouldn’t disagree much with what you say there because you can look at this issue from either way, as you say in your final paragraph.

      One point which may be a telling one in support of his theory is that there seems no sign of a previous language stratum in Argyll (if Gaelic were not native). This language would have to have been either Welsh or Pictish but it doesn’t appear to have left any of its place-names behind.

      It would be nice to have more straw with which to make The Bricks of Certainty but at the moment at least we don’t.

    448. Camz says:

      Prediction:

      The print media will get supported evermore from TV licenses, while not printing their circulation.

      Another arm of the state media, with no intention of reporting on whether it’s value for money to the average punter (but to the Union, probably slightly).

    449. Is any body else having problems accessing the Chris Cairns thread?

    450. cynicalHighlander says:

      Yep



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