A lie won’t fly
Scots voted No, in the end, on a ‘vow’ of greater devolution. Every Scot I have spoken to understands that the promised transfer of power can only take place if the books are balanced and Scots no longer legislate on England-only matters; this is manifestly part of the deal. If the UK government, Tory or Labour, reneges on it then the referendum result will have been fraudulent and founded upon a lie that won’t fly.
The published ‘promise’ was vague and Scots took the words in the context of the language used by the No campaign in the days and hours before the vote, as was intended. The Scottish health system, for example, would in future not be influenced in any way by Westminster to the extent of the devolution of the power to raise the necessary taxes.
Today’s speech by Gordon Brown follows through on this and other issues; “the bedroom tax will be no more (in Scotland)” and there will be new, “wide-ranging powers over the economy, education, health, the environment and other domestic affairs, that in my view adds up to home rule”. There will be “the biggest transfer of power in the history of our islands”.
Everyone in Scotland and England understands that none of this can happen unless, at the same moment England cedes any control over these issues in Scotland, Scotland does the same in respect of England. And it’s a matter of respect, too. A political union simply could not be maintained on any other basis.
Gordon Brown’s speech, however, goes on: “It will be difficult to resolve the question of English devolution in 100 days”. In other words Gordon Brown, who is most certainly leading on this defining issue of the day, is saying that Labour would not balance the books. Instead, in government, it would de-couple the two issues, legislate to transfer power to Scotland and maintain the right of Scots to vote on wholly devolved issues, including Health, for England.
The hope of a Labour government would be that after a bit of technical tinkering with the right of Scots to vote on the middle, detailed elements of legislation, the West Lothian question would go away. But it wouldn’t go away, because that state of affairs would be profoundly unjust.
A new Prime Minister Miliband delivering the anti-privatisation legislation for England’s health system he’d put at the top of his UK election campaign – using Scottish MPs? No right-thinking person, Scots or English, could accept such a monstrously distorted and unfair arrangement as the new status quo. The union would crumble in very short order following explosive pressure from both sides.
David Cameron can’t or won’t legislate to balance the books and honour the vow without Labour’s support. He’d be accused the world over of fixing the system months before an election. Instead, he’ll best UKIP and make it the key election issue in Tory/Labour marginal constituencies across England. Voters will find the notions of guaranteed higher public expenditure and full control over health for Scotland impossible to accept in conjunction with even residual powers of Scots at Westminster on those issues.
Labour will hope it wins all the same, and with a large enough majority to win votes without deploying Scottish MPs. But leaving the issue unresolved – campaigning on a lie – would make any kind of Labour victory less likely.
In the end, David Cameron knows he would be risking the future of the union by creating two tiers of MPs, but he’d be putting it to the people first and would therefore be indemnified. Moreover, he knows that if he wins he’ll have other – EU – fish to fry. Ed Miliband, on the other hand, by pretending he wants to transfer powers now but refusing to balance the books, would be risking going down in history as the man who broke the union on a lie.
I, and others in the No camp with me, believe Scots are best within the union. I am glad that Scots voted No. But if we were lied to and the government of the day reneges on ‘The Vow’, the vote was a fraud and the UK is corrupted beyond repair.
This is shite!
This is quite possibly the case but personally the referendum was lost because older people were scared by the baseless accusation their pensions would suffer, Westminster posturing and intimidation about currency and the biased media upon which they totally depend on for their news.
I think it will be a tactical mistake for YES to expend too much energy on the more devolution debate that will engage the No camp as it will lead us up the garden path to now-where.
Until the next referendum we need to push for financial autonomy – control of all of our revenues.
Open ur eyes it’s been corrupt from day one u and ur let’s stay at home with mum and dad campaign have had the wool pulled over ur eyes again and still can’t admit it . And I would like to see u and ur no campaign with ur deep pockets to start helping people at food banks and the disabled since u where only voting with ur wallet and not ur head and ur heart. And the 1.6 million that voted yes won’t forget who was in the no campaign and will be held accountable for ur action for ur lying during the last two years. We will be waiting and watching but will never forget
Well I am 76yrs old, and my noise tells me that it is shite, and I have waited 60yrs for freedom from Westminster , and I will NEVER give up the fight
Eric Joyce may be correct in his assessment of the situation, but I think that the Westminster parties are hoping the issue will wither with time and as issues such as the European question arise.
We were lied to so the vote was a fraud and the UK is corrupt beyond repair
Power stuff from Eric Joyce.
The point that I simply cannot understand is why, with the insight that Eric (and other Labour politicians) have, they do not seek reform from within of the Labour Party.
It is a corrupt entity which appears to desire power for power’s sake. I do not believe that they desire power in order to apply measures that will deliver social justice or anything remotely meaningful. That would have happened during their last 3 terms in Government. If they wouldn’t do it then, then they will not do it in the future.
So why don’t we hear voices from within Labour clamouring for change. Just to clarify, I’m not talking about Scottish Labour here; they are a complete lost cause. But where are the English MPs on this, or do they not care? (I probably answered my own question there).
All Labour requires to do is take a leaf out of the Yes campaign book and do some hard work at the grass roots level. Engage with the electorate. Get your hands dirty, roll up your sleeves. If you want support in England then go out and work for it. The insistence of clinging onto the Scottish block of MPs is just a sign of laziness and an admission that Labour are as good as finished in England as a viable alternative to Tory rule.
It would be interesting to hear more from Eric, his insight would be invaluable.
I, and others in the No camp with me, believe Scots are best within the union.
Aye, 80 years Labour in Scotland reign, Scots heavy industry gone, generational mass poverty, urban blight and sink estates, lowest EU pensions, lowest EU pay, longest EU working hours, staggering extremes of wealth, endless war, endless hell on earth in the middle east, utterly useless Trident nukes stashed in the Clyde or as far away from London as you could get them and on and on it goes, but UKOK is beyond repair because Westminster Labour backbenchers like Brown walked straight into a very cute Tory boy con.
Welcome back to teamGB Scotland region.
I see comments everywhere saying that 54% of under 65″s voted YES – if true its a monumental time-bomb under the union.
The SNP has seen a massive surge in membership since Thursday see link to snp.org
Greens have also gone up by 1800 new members since Thursday.
45% voted for Scotland to be independent and if Westminster thinks for one minute that they are going to meekly accept a 55% majority thst was only obtained by Westminster and its media lackeys lying and cheating all the way through the campaign, then they had better think again.
YES campaigners should now re-unite to form a political force (a new political party even?) even stronger than it was complete with streaming TV and Radio and online news to rival and even better the British media in every way to reach out with a message of truth to the people of Scotland that makes it the number one choice for viewing and listening to news and current affairs in Scotland.
Then this new political force campaigns like never seen before to make Scotland’s Westminster MP’s unionist free.
We’ve already done it to the Tories, the LibDems just need one last small push, and now the Westminster Labour party in Scotland are ripe for eradication too.
Gordon Brown probably knows this which is why he is trying one last smoke and mirrors con-trick to try and save Labour’s neck.
Once Scotland returns every MP as one who wants full political and fiscal autonomy we have an unstoppable political weapon to get exactly what we want.
Folks, this is positive. This is an indication of where things are going.
Whats bad for westminster right now is good for us.
I cant wait to see what Nichola (Sturgeon) makes of all this.
Eric:
I appreciate your willingness to use Wings to share your views. It would be really useful if you could take your analysis a bit further. It seems to me that your image of ‘balancing the books’ reflects the short-term political situation – Cameron and the rest of them need to find some way to be seen to honour the Daily Record vow to the people of Scotland.
But, unlike any of the rest of us, you are someone who has first-hand experience of how Westminster politics works. Can you conceive of any way that the system could work with two types of MP? Surely it would lead to a massive crisis, sooner or later. For example: a Labour overall majority but not a majority on issues reserved for English MPs only. For example: voters in Scotland realising that there would never again be a Scottish Prime Minister, Chancellor, Home Secretary, Education Minister, etc?
Can you tell us how you think that this could possibly work?
Lets stop all this ballot rigging nonsense. A complete waste of time and energy. No won because the elderly feared the prospect of change and were scared about the pound and pensions. It wasn’t Gordon Brown that won the day it was the Big Banks and threats of job losses.
The Yes campaign made some serious errors at the start months were wasted on airy fairy touchy feely meetings with no sense of leadership or direction.
The Yesmo system was crap and far too time consuming to organise multiple canvass lists, no search facility, the drop down menu did not allow for real issues of concern to voters to be flagged up and responded, no facility to extract and target those who were undecided.
I heard some clown on BBC radio Scotland the other day talking about how all the parties should now work together to deliver on the VOW, and suggesting that the SNP should become involved in the negotiations. The hairs on the back of my neck stood up and my blood ran cold. I thought: “No way! Stay well clear, and keep your hands clean. Let the liars who produced the “vow” bite and devour each other, then stand back and watch the reaction of an insulted and cheated Scottish electorate. The reaction among many who were duped into voting “no” has already begun.
Why is anyone who voted “No” being given a platform here? I’m not ready to listen to any of them.
I’m still puzzled by how a backbench opposition MP could have promised anything in the first place. Surely the media would have exposed his worthless words?
I agree with the principle of “English votes for English laws”.
If England and Scotland were both seperate sovereign countries, that would be a quick and easy way to deliver it, don’t you think?
Labour/Unionists are calculating, scheming liars who have handed Scottish wealth (secretly) to London on a plate for ever. So Scotland lives in poverty and they live in wealth in London. Despicable murdering, thieving, jealous, greedy, useless, fraudsters just like the rest in Westminster.
By the way, Mr Joyce, I also voted “no.”
NO to WMDs on the Clyde.
NO to Scottish involvement in the UK’s illegal wars.
NO to Westminster’s draining of Scotland’s resources to service UK debts created by the likes of Brown and Darling.
NO to the “I’m-alright-Jack” mentality of the Bullingdon boys.
The last six words of your article are the only ones that matter – the UK is corrupted beyond repair.
Are the missing voters people who registered but did not receive a polling card from Unionist controlled council offices? Backlog or fraud? There were reports of people registering but not being on the system. People were complaining in YES shops and were having to re-register.
Of course they have lied to us.
What they are trying to do is figure out how to get away with it without us noticing. It will dawn on them eventually that they won’t be able.
Keeping everyone happy in the Union is a juggling act that just isn’t possible anymore.
How can someone who is apparently on the left of politics be “glad” of a vote that ensures more right wing Tory governments will be imposed on the people of Scotland people. Eric Joyce, fuck right off.
National minimum wage to rise to £8 says David (sorry Ed) Milliband.
Read the small print – by the end of the next Parliament.
That’s 30 pence a year, really ambitious.
Labour might think this will be enough to bring people back to them but it won’t wash and if Devo isn’t to be delivered to there timescale, they will lose every seat in Glasgow if not across Scotland.
Timetable already slipping, tik tok, tik, tok.
Meanwhile Scotland’s top political players are heading off to church, St Giles in Ediburgh presided over by the C of S fella who never tired of talking up mythical wounds and divisions, that’ll do the trick, dearie me, Scottish establishment as usual indeed.
Still claiming the £Million expenses?
link to theguardian.com ‘It’s time for moving on. We don’t need to be bitter in Scotland’
After the referendum: Glasgow and Edinburgh voted differently but the mood now is to get back to normal life”
You voted no, you will vote Labour and you like us loyal proud Scot buts.
link to theguardian.com
O/T it’s time to get sneeky and it might just make us feel good. David Berry suggests inviting Berwick to rejoin Scotland see article here link to northneuk.com
The Ink is not even dry on the front page of the Daily Records “VOW”, and already it has been broken. Yet we will let an non-elected, non-democratic for corporate profit Rag interfere with a Democratic process and we will just allow the Daily Record to Slink away for another day to print more profit for headlines bullshit. The Daily Record and the Labour Quislings must be held accountable!
Labour for indy is thinking about becoming an official party and part of a YES block: link to labourforindy.com
The people of working age in Scotland voted for YES across the country. I couldn’t get my head around the Northern isles voting No and so many disaffected, registering to vote and maybe voting No anyway.
It is now clear that the retired people voted No with a >2:1 en mass ratio. They did it for various reasons:
-Fear of losing their pensions and the pound
-Fear of change
– Intransigence: My own grandmother thinks we ‘are just better united’ without any rationale.
-Some just don’t give a hoot and couldn’t care less for the young. Unfortunately some old people are selfish and while not rich are ok as things are.
The only people that can convince the older generation to support change to a yes is their families who need to reassure them and convince them to think what is best for their families 1st.
I also fully agree with comments that there is a risk that the younger generation may get disillusioned. Unless the bandwagon keeps going they will focus their energy on other things. Then the best and brightest will probably emigrate.
They need to be supported via yes block focusing on the young and getting them to convince and inform their parents and grandparents.
Eg. A dedicated crowd funded media channel is ok but if it is not seen or trusted by the older generation then it is much less effective.
And so it begins, Mr Joyce representative for the people of Falkirk, positioning himself for the next general election, and trying to save his skin.
He will no doubt try and convince his electorate that he wanted nothing to do with the scare tactics and the pressure that was spewed out by our political elite, all Scotland’s Labour MP’s had their chance to call foul during the campaign on these tactics, the time to have publicly made a statement was before the referendum, its akin to lifting the world cup knowing that you played dirty, you fielded more players than the opposition who played within the rules, even then you had to cheat and scored the winning goal with the hand of the three Westminster Gods.
The nation you were representing hang their heads in shame at your dishonesty, you have made a mockery of the democratic process and will suffer your humiliation at the next general election. You have managed to anger EVERY right thinking Scot in this land, Every single Labour candidate will now be hounded at every opportunity during the run in to the general election by countless grass roots activists, you will see what people power can do. You now have the 45 to worry about, we have learned that to play fair can’t work, we also can play dirty, but our foul tactics can be justified. We will be making it our business to investigate each and every Labour MPs expenses, expose your nepotism, monitor your activities, scream from the rooftops to your own electorate, about any impropriety. You and the Labour party in Scotland are FINISHED. The Scottish lion has been woken.
The torch of independence, glowed as a cinder with Winnie Ewing, it ignited into a flame with Margot McDonald (RIP), Alex Salmond held it aloft in the Scottish Parliament with his mandate from the people, that torch will hopefully be passed to Nicola Sturgeon, its flame will be fanned by 1.6 million who held fast despite the UKOK alliance.
“All the Scots I’ve spoken to?”
Are there any Scots in the Parliamentary Expenses office? Or do you mean the Scots working in the Metropolitan Police?
Have you spoken to the Scots involved with the Falkirk foodbank?
Thought not.
It really goes without saying that you believe Scots are best within the union.
Or rather, one Scot.
Just read free Scotland post saying SNP should not take part in talks on Devo.
I disagree and I say that because it allows them to define Devo Max and argue for that, if not we get Devo min by default, assuming of course we get anything.
Currently SNP are quite right to target Broonies timescale, it keeps the pressure on Labour.
This particular Unionist (Joyce) has seen the light relatively quickly.Only three days too late.I predict the rest of them will take up to five years if they don’t die first.
What else is new ?
Of course Labour will push for devolution for Scotland without the same for England. Even Sky News (only a few hours after the result) have pointed out that Labour lose 56 seats on English only issues and Labour members in Westminster will never stand for that. The member for Cowdenbeath wants to rebuild Labour in Scotland while keeping those seats voting in England. The Conservatives will never agree, and neither will those in Scotland who believe in social justice.
so glad that you are still here, Stu, we have lost enough this past few days without losing talent and commitment like yours. There is so much to do so that we win the next battle and gain the prize at last.
It is interesting to hear Joyce’s pov, but I find now that I automatically distrust anything I read or hear from unionists at any level.
Re a previous thread on tv licences, I gave mine up around two years ago, completed the online form saying I had no interest in the rubbish they churn out, and I have never had pestering visits or letters. Give up your propaganda fix, it doesn’t hurt and you will feel much cleaner for it. You can watch what you need to via other sources – and in any case, there is so much work to be done, you wont have time for watching tv until we have our own Scottish broadcaster again.
Achnaben at 8.12
I agree with much of your analysis but we must never be gulled into campaigning for anything less than independence.
I was at a concert last night (Gaberlunzie) in Dunoon. It was sold out. The passion was palpable. The commitment to independence from many of the new friends we have found on the campaign was total. We had a large section of our audience from our Grammar School. We are keeping our Yes shop open because applications for membership to the SNP are flooding in and we are perhaps looking for bigger premises.
If the referendum was held tomorrow we would win.
The best vehicle to carry us forward is now the matter for the most serious consideration.
It is worth noting that in the early days of the Scottish National Party you could be a member of another party at the same time. An organisation in which people could keep their own allegiance but be in an independence coalition seems attractive.
Actually however I think it would be best that everybody who wanted independence just joined the SNP. It is and always has been the broad church that is needed. Its unionist opponent however have been aware of that and have vilified the party incessantly particularly the hierarchy of the imperial British Labour Party in Scotland. It must be destroyed. It has since the 1950s been the biggest impediment to Scottish independence (despite the Home Rule credentials of it early founders)
Nice to hear from Lord Queensberry.
All these proudscotbut trying to show how much they love Scotland, hilarious.
But folks, Nicola will have the nonce to stay clear and will have advice and support
from many, but she is a very astute politician in her own right.
Westminster won’t deliver, it can’t . And if the union was saved through corruption and lies then the game is on again. And in ten years a lot of the over 65 naysayers from Thursday will be at peace.
Read the Daily Mail ( for the purposes of knowing ones enemy). Cut through the anti Scottish anti Salmond bile and you can see how afraid they are. The Union is not cemented, it’s a roll of gaffer tape and some twine affair, more divided than ever.
And they know it.
@ marian I’m assuming the £145 I’ve just saved will go into something such as you suggest.
regarding the WLQ, I agree that Scottish MP’s should not vote on issues that have no impact on Scotland. SNP MP’s do not its only the Tories and Lab who do.
As far as most Scots are concerned it’s a non issue and if that’s what delays delivery of the promises, its purely down to Labour who will rue the day they tried to veto true democracy for the sake of party
Is the ’16 megs of power’ a bonus joke?
I’m all for the West Lothian question being answered providing the North Britain and West Anglia question is also answered.
“For how long will non-English constituencies and non-English Honourable members tolerate… at least 533 Honourable Members from England exercising a colonial, and probably often exploitative, effect on non-English politics?”
Well I haven’t met you, Mr Joyce. But I am a Scot who does not agree with your notion that this is “balancing the books”, as you so quaintly put it.
What it actually is is the downgrading of MP’s for Scottish constituencies to second class. In other words the first consequence of this no vote is a transfer of power away from Scotland: not further devolution of power to Scotland at all.
Given the relative numbers that is not particularly significant in practical terms. The West Lothian question sounds simple, and many of the rUK electorate have been taught to whine about it, as is their wont. They accuse scots of claiming victimhood etc, but are more gulty of that than they know. And this is also down to the labour party, because they have the bulk of the Scottish constituency MP’s who have voted on all legislation within Westminster, without making any effort at all to make the case as to why this is right both constitutionally and practically.
The SNP have not done this. They have implicitly accepted the validity of the West Lothian question. I fundamentally disagree with their position but it is consistent. Yours is not.
We have one sovereign body. Westminster. All MP’s are elected to take a full part in legislating for the UK in that body and very few matters have no funding implications at all.
Do you believe that London MP’s should not vote on issues of transport because London transport is controlled by the local authority there and so decisions which affect Leeds do not affect London? Is there not a need to “balance the books” on that matter too?
What about the Barnett formula? I note that it does not apply to english regions but there is enormous disparity on spending per head between those regions, with London taking the lion’s share. Does that need to be addressed? So far all we hear is complaint about how these things pan out in Scotland: but the centralisation and disparity is not actually particularly related to Scotland: that is not the issue at all.
Once again we see the Labour party supinely accepting all the premises without thought or challenge, and once again we see them (or rather you) rush to give away important powers for Scotland, in the interest of gaining middle english votes
This is contemptible
There is no english parliament. I personally think there should be but that is up to the english. What they must not be allowed to do is make real their fantasy that westminster is the english parliament. But that is what you advocate.
You are a disgrace Mr Joyce.
Need to get away from rigged ballot
SNP areas switched to NO
urban & unionist
They like the idea,keep the Union but SNP scottish parliament
45% is a great result,Westminster very worried
@Wee Alex at 9:21
Okay, Alex, I see your point. It’s just that I can think of nothing more gratifying than watching the no-thanks brigade shooting themselves in the foot. If the SNP climbs on board, they risk being accused of being awkward and holding up Gogsy Broon’s timetable. There is already enough potential for carnage among the three Westminster stooges, and the potential backlash from Scottish voters could be huge.
What the government needs now is a good old fashioned crisis. Nothing like a good old fashioned crisis to push ‘more powers’ off the agenda. Watch this space !
Well, that’s interesting, I just crafted a robust response to the article above and it’s not been published. Not even in moderation.
The hand of external censorship at play?
I’m going to have to start crafting these responses in notepad and cutting and pasting I think.
These devolved powers will never materialise in the form promised. They were a cynical last minute ploy – and Brown, despite his egomaniacal boast can do nothing about it. BTW, I found it really frustrating campaigning among my 65+ generation. Thet don’t give a damn about devolution or independence, the vulnerable, the young – the issues are ‘my pension’, ‘prices will go up’, ‘what kind of money are going to use’, ‘my passport! – can’t go to Grand Canaria!’ I don’t thing YES spent enough time addressing these concerns of this deciding demographic…. it will have to succeed next time … and by G, there bloody will be a next time! Soon! BTW, when I mentioned in Wings comment before the vote that I got this response I mentioned above in this comment here I was called a loiar by some. Attitude not helpful. We need to be aware of what we are dealing with, even it is too ugly to believe….
Just been checking my news feeds. Alex Salmond will be on Sunday Politics show. Devo debacle on the agenda.
I know, It is the BBC but I watch it on freeview….in Ireland.
The way I feel is blacker than black.
Please don’t stop this service. There are things I need to do to lift me away from the belligerent passive aggression I’m feeling now.
I am not paying a licence tax to BBC anymore.
I need a comprehensive list either here or via a link of products and service providers who I can boycott straight away.
I think we all should hurt these people in their pockets.
In the days before the referendum, it was always my belief that if the majority of Scottish MPs at Westminster were SNP or independence supporting, then Independence would naturally follow.
I have now joined the SNP to push that agenda forward and to help in any way I can to end London Labour representation in Scotland.
We all know the vow will either be broken or will be turned into devo minow but david cameron has done the dirty on the labour party on this
although we are all disappointed you need to bounce yourself out off defeat mode and start looking to the future , 2014 will become a sentence in the scottish history books but look how much the country has changed in the last 20 years what do you think it will be like in another 20 , as much as we are annoyed and ashamed of the no voters most of them are still scottish and do not deserve to be punished. Think how our ancestors dealt with a lot worse defeats than this and get off yours knees
english votes for english mps is tantamount to the english declaring independence from the uk lap it up and exploit it for every yes voter its worth
The main problem in the campaign was the total mass (SH laterly excepted) working for the No campaign.
When people say, ‘…but it was on the news and in all the papers.’ There really is little one can say to counter that. No amount of leaflets and print outs from the internet will convince them that the whole of the media are lying to them.
No amount of online anything is going to move people who either do not use the internet or only for email, family chat etc. That is a very large number of people and not just older voters, although they clearly are a large part of the group.
Re Jim T @0943 Jim the post I put up earlier took 14 minutes to show up, maybe Stu needs more va va voom on the server again. this was posted at0951 see how it shows up
I AM heartened by the numbers now joining the SNP, the Greens, the SSP …. let’s have a coalition of interest and cooperation to make the impetus to Independence unstoppable – despite the efforts of Westminster to stop it, crush it, make it illegal. We must use every means to win our hope – if not for ourselves, for those who depend upon the kind of society we envisage, a vision we largely share in YES. YES we will.
@ cearc
I concur. In the period before the vote I spent some time in hospital. That meant I had no access to the internet, but for the first time I did have access to TV. In both cases I had access to the papers, but not to online discussion on places like CiF.
It was really noticeable that my views were not represented at all and that there was no counter to the unionist narrative. It was relentless, and to some extent persuasive, even though I was already committed to vote yes.
This is what life was like for many of our citizens, and in particular the elderly. Unless you were in that situation I think it is hard to imagine, but I experienced it and it was powerful.
Independent and honest media outlets are, to me, our greatest need now. That should be a first priority, though things like boycotts can take place at the same time.
sorry, I’ll get in trouble going off topic so early, but were discussions elsewhere on boycotting some companies. There is a convenient list here link to buzzfeed.com
Would a Facebook page be the best medium for creating a list?
Eric Joyce MP.,
What a load of utter pish.
If you thought any of the Westminster troughers mean one word of what they ‘vowed’ you are seriously deluded. You say you are glad Scotland voted to stay in the union. You are glad you voted NO. Well then,
Enjoy the Tory Government YOU just voted for.
Enjoy the Nuclear missiles and the new version YOU just voted for – apparently to ‘protect’ us from North Korea, FFS.
Enjoy the continued welfare cuts YOU just voted for.
Enjoy the continued foodbanks YOU just voted for.
Enjoy the continued demonisation of our poor elderly and sick, which YOU just voted for.
Enjoy the privatisation of the NHS YOU just voted for
Enjoy Scotland’s oil wealth and taxes going to London to pay for London’s sewer upgrades and crossrail across London, together with the new rail line from London to Birmingham – that’ll help the folks of Falkirk on the way to the foodbank. This is what YOU just voted for.
Enjoy Scotland as the laughing stock of the world – the only country to be offered independence and say NO – or as your LabourTory chums would have it, ‘NAW’. That is what YOU voted for
Enjoy the fact that despite all this talk, within a few weeks, all the ‘solemn vows’ will be long forgotten – as was always the intention.
Most of all enjoy the fact that come the next election, people such as myself will be working harder than ever to literally wipe the treacherous Labour party, and their accolytes such as you from the electoral map of Scotland, forever. Labour has betrayed Scotland, they will never be forgiven.
Unlike you, Eric Joyce, MP, I see Gordon Brown for the lying ("Tractor" - Ed) to Scotland that he really is. A shallow, craven creature of the very worst kind. Cameron’s Tory sockpuppet in Scotland.
In particular, enjoy the FACT that ‘no thanks’ voters like you have literally shattered the hopes and dreams of our younger generation in Scotland. . Something which you have probably not even noticed.
But you’ll be alright Eh, Eric Joyce, MP., with your gold plated London MP pension guaranteed to care for YOU when YOU are old, and better than almost any other pension on planet earth. No foodbanks or austerity for YOU, Eric Joyce, MP., on your 68k salary plus expenses plus free second home in London, plus free flights.
Milliband doesn’t even realise Scotland is a country.
“I, and others in the No camp with me, believe Scots are best within the union. I am glad that Scots voted No. But if we were lied to and the government of the day reneges on ‘The Vow’, the vote was a fraud and the UK is corrupted beyond repair.”
If?
There’s no “if” about it.
SLAB not only lied, they’ve exposed themselves as ("Tractor" - Ed)s.
Eric Joyce wakes up.
Gotta love it.
SBV 45/99%
@Dave McEwan Hill
“the imperial British Labour Party in Scotland. It must be destroyed. It has since the 1950s been the biggest impediment to Scottish independence” Yes 100%.
Does anybody here think the vote would have been lost if Labour were on the YES side? It would have been a landslide for YES.
Instead we had Gordon Brown pushing the BIG LIE on pensions and Alistair Darling pushing the BIG LIE on us not being able to use the pound. The majority of pensioners were scared into voting NO.
The Labour Party have a very effective electoral machine and harvest the postal votes of the older generation. It will not be easy but if any progress is to be made to achieve independence then Labour has to be destroyed at the next election.
This is where all the energy of the YES campaign should be directed. Not by setting up new parties or electoral pacts. Only the SNP can defeat the Labour Party in Scotland and therefore everybody who voted YES and even some who voted NO must vote for the SNP until we achieve an independent Scotland.
Just listened to Ed “the Ned”, F.F.S. What does it take for the numptys in this country to see what’s going on, yes there is a small core of hard NO voters, who would vote NO under any situation , but it’s the soft NOs who have been lied to, intimidated , threatened , and they believed it, makes one sick to realise that there is no back bone in most of the 55%s, and as for reconciliation you can shove it where the monkeys do, and bye the way, I still smell shite!!.
Saporian – I agree – switching my 55 year allegiance to the SNP – and will do whatever I can to share in its growth. I hope there will be real coalescing and cooperation among the elements of the YES campaign…the Greens, SNP, SSP – those involved in the truly wonderful, effective RIC
The BBC and the establishment rub our noses in it. BBC radio Scotland report Prince William attends Mass in Malta to help celebrate 50 years of Maltese independence.
Did you notice that Ed Miiy, when asked about the possibility of G Brown returning to front line politics, he said “no”, so G Brown remains a back bencher, who is not particularly liked, so the harder he pushes, the harder Westminster will push back, (sod Scotland).
O/T there already is a boycott list on Facebook.
link to facebook.com
Use it wisely. 😀
The most brilliant thing to come out of the referendum is that young people have been exposed to the machinations of politics at age sixteen. They have so much time ahead to finally take control of their nation. And I am sure they will never forget how it was stolen away from them this time. They are clever, passionate, and invigorated all the ingredient’s required to reclaim their nation and restore Scotland to her rightful place as a sovereign nation again.
Good luck to the young, Scotland’s future protectors.
According to an Ashcroft poll 25% of No voters voted No because of the promise of more powers:
link to theguardian.com
If those powers are not brought in or are not seen as satisfactory then that is the difference between the Yes and No votes. If Cameron stretches the timetable out to years then it is game on again, broken promises.
The Tories have no real appetite for increasing the devolution settlement and Labour have an even lower one. LibDems are irrelevant, 150 years of bleating for a federal state and what have they got? The joker of course is Farage’s clown party. Who want to abolish our parliament (rebellion time Niggle).
Maybe there was electoral fraud and maybe not.
The procedures within the count were pretty tight but depend upon having as many counting agents as permitted and them being organised not rushing from one place to another.
The electoral system as a whole seems pretty sloppy. I was shocked, some years ago when I returned from working in europe, to find that one could still roll in to a polling station with no polling card and no id and just state a name and address to vote.
That the ballot boxes are collected from the polling stations and delivered to the count by council vans without observation is also pretty sloppy.
We probably can’t do anything to change the former but we really should have had polling agents to be at closure in every station and to follow the van. To do that the keyboard warriors need to actually do something. We had the opportunity to do that but in practice very few people were willing to do anything.
Most of our Ref Agents struggled to fill their counting agent quotas let alone have sufficient polling agents where the numbers are not limited.
Freedom and Serfdom was separated by 383,000 votes and we needed only 200,000 votes to separate us from those Lying bastards like Eric Joyce who milched MP`s Expenses like no other in WM.
Infamously, Joyce clained and was paid 3 or 4 times the Travelling Expenses of his next door New Labour MP.
The guy with the biggest snout in the trough was convicted for flouting Laws that he, as a legislator – enacted.
Joyce was a failed Army major and was a totally untrustworthy MP WHO – long after the TRUTH WAS KNOWN – ATTEMPTED, as Bliars lap-dog, to defend their illegal war in Iraq.
Why was he allowed to post here – on WoS.?
I’d have prefered to hear just what exactly THE VOW means in at least some detail Mr Joyce, or even some info on what exactly an English only matter is in Westminster.
We know they take Scots oil revenues and use it for stuff like balance of payments initially, then big headline stuff like the London Olympics that were so so Scottish, lol.
But we have had FoE’s to find out that just Aberdeen and Dundee alone will each pay over £350 million for just the first phase of HS2 London to Birmingham.
So now I am supposed to give my hard earned taxes to an English only Faragian Westminster parliament that then decides how to best invest my taxes in England.
Its just not happening! Ah but it is because 10% of Scottish voters say Rule Britannia and be part of something bigger.
We’re certainly part of something but its just a giant farce that gets bigger every day. One things for sure, I never ever want to hear anyone in the Highlands complain about the A9 and the A96 again, but they will.
Once gloating unionists get bored, Press and Journal neo fascist unionist freak show will start greeting about just how bad Scottish roads are and isnt that awfull SNP Scots.gov going to do something. Welcome to hell.
Scotspine,
Look up Malta’s fight for Independence, gained after Westminster broke promises to look into their requests for greater freedom, 10 years past with out any movement from Westminster , so the Malta took the situation into their own hands, on their referendum I think the “yes” was about 56%, job done!.
Robert Louis
Well said
Keep Malta’s example in heart,mind and hope.
Don’t know if this has already been mentioned, but just heard through the rumour mill that the Glasgow BT mob tried to set the Sunday Herald building on fire. Any confirmations on that?
Devo Max is a duff, granted. But there is still a section of voters (not as large as the grey vote) but significant enough that think they were getting Devo Max without bothering to find out what exactly it is. We might know it is not being offered but they still have it in their heads. We can’t re-fight a referendum yet but we can fight this. Westminster wants it put to bed like Independence but it is also its big weakness over the next decade. Not allowing Scottish Mps to vote on English matters in my opinion will happen. And in one fell swoop, there will be no more Labour troughers in Scotland. They won’t be able to sit on any cabinet or hold high office. And the next illegal war or financial meltdown ? It will be owned by the English. Hammering on about Westminster reneging on the pathetic ‘vow’ is a vehicle to continue presenting the vision of what Scotland is losing in the union. It allows us to hustle the north of England, Wales and N. Ireland into action and it will goad the English into wanting to personalise Westminster for themselves. We have opened a crack in the union and the great thing about cracks is that pushing will create more.
A Facebook campaign should be started to see how many people registered but did not receive a polling card. The missing voters?
If thousands of people registered but did not receive a polling card. The Referendum should be declared null and void and another one organised. This time with strict purdah rules. The rules were broken on the 18/9/14.
As you well know, Eric, the best way to resolve all issues in Westminster is for Scotland to return to it’s previous independent state.
The current state of affairs only suits Labour troughers, who yet again have shown us they have no morals, no scruples, no shame. What we have witnessed these last months is Labour Party politicians acting the Tory’s agents in Scotland. I hope the electorate make them pay dearly.
The basic problem remains exactly the same and it is far from being obscure. Why then cannot everyone from elected members, councillors to Prime Ministers, and all members of the public throughout the entire United Kingdom identify it as the problem?
That basic problem is that there cannot be a fair and equitable United Kingdom as long as the Westminster Parliament remains the de facto parliament of the country of England in a quadratic system of government split up into countries while also remaining as a bipartite United Kingdom Parliament where the two kingdom are the single country Kingdom of Scotland and the three country Kingdom of England.
The basic problem is without doubt The Westminster Parliament.,
We have three options :-
Continue as a two,( equally sovereign kingdoms), United Kingdom with a Royal Head of State.
Become two separate independent Kingdoms retaining a common head of each state.
Become a four country federal state with Westminster a proper federal parliament and the country of England removed from Westminster to prevent those 533 England Members wearing two hats and always favouring England, (or even just London), over all other countries and kingdoms. With the added option of becoming a full republic.
As far as I am concerned I will never accept rule of Scotland by a de facto parliament of England at Westminster. Nor will I ever accept the rule of a Westminster that has links to the Orange Lodge, BNP and sundry other criminal organs. When the Westminster Establishment, “flees wi the Craws”, we must treat them all as craws and do our best to, (figuratively), shoot them, “aa deid iz craws”.
We are now being ruled by an Establishment of political parties in bed with each other and tucking up in that bed the Loyal Orange Order, The corrupt BBC and MSM, BNP, EDL, P.I.E. Supporters, MI5/6 and other so called security services and just about every other form of greed & depravity known to mankind including the corrupt banking and financial sectors of the City of London.
Stop the Westminster Parliament of England, we Scots want to get off.
A non political website that has put me on permanent moderation ;)) had this post regarding George square.
“A fear of some people i was speaking to including myself is Scotland if we ever get home rule could turn into another Northern Ireland through religion.”
Well. The ugly face of loyalist British Nationalism was out in force this weekend and your no vote unleashed it.
Needless to say my reply is in moderation.
English posters on the same site don’t see why the result of the vote would have mattered as it would have made no difference to them.
Well, the lone yesser matters as the mods have censored me.
Can I give a football analogy.
Ten minutes to go and the team is two one down.
The captain gathers them together and says “A few minutes to go ,lads. Lets go for two nothing”
That’s exactly what we do if we even contemplate seriously considering any of the “enhanced powers” shite now being trundled out to divert us.
We don’t need to even consider it. A majority of our population under 65 voted YES. This majority increases as we go down in age. This majority wants independence – nothing less.
Just to re-iterate
Only independence provides “full fiscal autonomy” so can we stop faffing about apologetically on this .
It is worth pointing out again and again and again if this movement had ever settled for devolution “as a step in the right directio ” or whatever we would have got half of that.
That’s politics
Wanton Wumpun,
‘Why was he allowed to post here – on WoS.?’
Why not? Or do you only want to see your own opinion echoed.
I agree with what others above have said, regarding the forthcoming UK general election. It is on its way, very soon. I admire the notion of new political parties, and so on, and I see a place especially for RIC, SSP, Greens and of course SNP in the Scottish parliament, but for the UK general election, it is really only the SNP that can have an impact. This is for several reasons;
1. Westminster despite its bluster is feart of the SNP, and what it represents.
2. Running UK general election campaigns is expensive – very expensive. Only the SNP have the funds needed to have the necessary clout. Time is too short for other political parties to get started in time.
3. In UK general elections, almost all the airtime is given over to the three London parties, and probably in this case, will also be given (for no good reason, BBC) to UKIP too. Only the SNP in Scotland can even get a small amount of time on air – partly due to their size and partly due to the fact they are the Scottish Government.
4. Only the SNP has the resources to field credible candidates with full financial and campaigning support during the election.
Those are the main reasons, I would ask people to rally around them for the UK general election. They will give voice to Scotland in Westminster. They have the experience, the money, the campaigners, experience, political savvy and clout.
However, I personally want to see something different for the Scottish Parliament elections in 2016. In particular, I would love to see a rainbow of pro indy parties, such that there will always be a majority of MSP’s in the parliament in favour of independence. No space for Labour, Tories or Libdems.
I watched the RIC play a blinder in the YES campaign, and would love to see them represented in some way – not sure how, the green party too, which I think has a fantastic opportunity to gain serious ground from disaffected Labour voters across Scotland for the Scottish elections in 2016, the SSP too I want to have a place.
There is something else, and I know some baulk at the idea. I think Tommy Sheridan is a class act. Now, of course some will quickly point the finger, but I say, if anything he did was wrong, he has surely repaid any debt with his tireless campaigning in the YES campaign. He is a strong committed socialist voice, and I would love to see him stand (he was an MSP before) for the Scottish Parliament – free from any retrograde hubris from the SSP. I know it all hurt you, but really, it’s time to let that one go. Events have moved on – us socialists must think and box clever, together.
So, I would urge people to join the SNP or lend them your support, make no mistake they want independence like you, but need to play the current game of ‘new powers’, in order to show it up for the fraud that it is. Remember the old saying ‘keep your friends close and your enemies closer’. The SNP are canny buggers and are on YOUR side.
As am alternative you could of course join any other pro indy party, but that has less effect for the UKGE2015.
Either way, let’s set out to trash Labour in Scotland.
wow
8102 new @theSNP members. In under 65 hours!!
We need to send a majority of yes coalition mps to Westminster. We need to wipe out all the unionist parties. That is the beginning.
I’d like to see Glasgow and Lanarkshire Labour free in the next GE.
We need to send a majority of yes coalition mps to Westminster. We need to wipe out all the unionist parties. That is the beginning.
I’d like to see Glasgow and Lanarkshire Labour free in the next GE.
Ideally, Scotland Labour free in the next GE.
O/t
I was thinking,
Wouldn’t it be poetic if the people who despise us the most were responsable for giving us what we want, FREEDOM
If only the wee Englanders could be persuaded to demand a referendum on casting Scotland out, not that the the main parties who countenance it for nano second, (and we all know why boys and girls dont we?)
The great lie has been told for so long and so well that 55% of Scots beleived it,
I had a collegue from work respond to my link on facebook to the disgusting Katy Hopkins comments on that equally revolting husband of Judy Finiegan (cant bring myself to type that clowns name) and the response sent ice through my veins,
the response was
“first time in my life I have ever agreed with Katy Hopkins John” UNFRIENDED with maximum predjudice!
The time will come when we get to rub their noses in the shit they did on the carpet, Like the unfortunate Bluenosedog not a very attractive hound 57 varieties and severe halitosis and fleas who have their own fleas,
and explosive flatulence, and anything else I cant think of at the moment that is not an attractive trait for a mutt!
@Dave McEwan Hill I disagree. The duck is dead. We are not getting independence this year. We have to let go. No point endlessly banging on about it – we will only alienate people and make them defensive. We, the 45 have to reach out to the 25 who are open to more powers. It seems the strategy Malta embarked on and it worked. So we can too.
Well said ROBERT LOUIS. I could not agree more. The fight for independence is not over. A flame has been lit that will never be extinguished, but will grow ever brighter and remain so as a glorious beacon to democracy. Exemplary in it’s existence to all who treasure freedom.
We who believe in, and crave a fairer more equal society will fight on. As we do so we will witness the corrupt state of Westminster, like a serpent, begin to devour itself by eating it’s tail…
Stay together, brothers and sisters, a new Scottish dawn beckons. Gird your loins, the battle is not lost.
Mr Joyce, we’re already well aware that the ‘vow’ is undeliverable. We’re also pretty clued up on why and what comes next. Unlike those who voted no and the patronising lady in her kitchen, we took the time to get clued up.
What comes next is on Labour’s hands and we’ll still be waiting. We’ll have to be in order to clean up the mess.
Westminster and ALL those who support it as an institution for governance are lost to the people. After their work in this referendum and their strategy, Labour is a dead thing. What they did, how they strategised and acted was reckless, socially divisive and dangerous in the extreme. Don’t even think to defend them or separate them from the tories in this. What they did, they did willingly and out of pure self interest.
As and when all of Westminster’s promises fail or are fudged even your patronising lady will be kicking in the doors of Holyrood and Westminster looking for answers. I hope your old colleagues are ready for the shit storm that’s coming their way.
If I had bought a train ticket from Glasgow, Queen Street to Edinburgh, Waverley and someone pulled the emergency cord at Haymarket because there was a man on the line, waving a piece of paper. What would i do?
Well I and 44 of my friends would just step onto the platform and stay here. In fact I would organise a party right here.
The train for the union has just left and the man with the piece of paper is on board. He now has to sell something to them.
They will have their parties. British Tory MPs slapping the backs of British Labour MPs. So-called socialists in bed with the OO. So many strange bed fellows.
A politically educated and motivated 45% is a dangerous thing to them. Especially if we continue to fight for all the things that got us here.
Let them continue to sleep together. At every election (council, Scottish, UK and European) if that 45% put one candidate up they will have to continue to work with their ‘new friends’ to defeat us,
One thing is for sure I am not getting on any train that is heading back to Queen Street. Already it looks like they are falling out on it.
Ah Eric, how opportune. I asked on here last night as you are my MP, what mandate does Gordon Brown ( not even of Better Together campaign but United with Labour ) have?
You are my MP, my representative at Westminster , so I’ll ask again , who decided Gordon Brown could offer new powers on my behalf?
O/T – i do voluntary work on a Saturday that requires me to wear a suit. I’ve worn a small YES lapel pin for the past year or so.
A NO ‘colleague’ came up to me yesterday and noted that I wasn’t wearing it.
I said – ‘Yeah i’m not wearing my badge, but I see you’re still wearing your sneer’. That shut him up 🙂
There is a lot of talk of grand schemes, and talk of fighting on, which I agree with, but first things first.
And the first priority is this: The dead hand of Scottish Labour needs to be driven out once and for all. Too long have they held Scotland back. Time to put the final nail in its coffin.
Given that Dundee and Glasgow backed yes, this is a realistic goal.
With the benefit of hindsight, perhaps the referendum was too much too soon. Another 5 years of an SNP administration, pushing for devo-max, would have settled nerves and shown that Scotland could be governed competently, making the leap to independence more palatable. I believe it would have led to the steady drip drip drip towards independence. Maybe we jumped too soon?
Let them dilly dally over the new “powers”. Let them get in a right mess over the West Lothian question and de-ball the Scottish MPs. Then maybe some of the No voters will realise what the consequences of their vote was. People will finally realise that this in effect means we would never be allowed a Scottish PM, Chancellor etc (and we’ve all witnessed the rants on forums about that never being allowed again anyway after Brown & Darling). The SNP should stay well out of the negotiations imo, or they will be painted as being awkward and contributing to the inevitable mess.
The cracks will soon start to show in Westminster, closely followed by the EU referendum. If as predicted, England vote out and Scotland vote to stay in, that is when we get another chance, and hopefully some of the 55 are enlightened by then. 🙂
First task though is killing off Labour at the GE15. It should be easy on paper, but I fear most people who bother to vote have short memories. My MP is Tom Clarke – I can’t think of anything useful he’s ever done for the area, he is regularly derided in the local paper, but I think he has one of the biggest majorities of all the Labour MPs – removing him will be difficult, even if North Lanarkshire voted Yes.
“And so it begins, Mr Joyce representative for the people of Falkirk, positioning himself for the next general election, and trying to save his skin.”
Eric said some time ago that he wouldn’t stand in the 2015 election.
“Why was he allowed to post here – on WoS.?”
Because I decide, not you.
I know of a number of people in their 70s who voted yes and they were not into social media in any shape or form.
Let’s work to get labour out if Scotland.
O/T but I also think the SNP should change its name. It was a good name when it was the only party in Scotland fighting for our country and in favour of Independence. But now there are the greens, socialists, labour for indy etc. We want a day when all parties are for Scotland. It is also a name that allows the press to do a number on them and play with the word Nationalist which like it or not most people fear. I suggest the Scottish Democratic Party. And next referendum? They will be attacking democrats!
This is the Union we are now told to be happy in from the Mirror. Crash invented the bedroom tax, he implemented it and now we have to listen to the old fraudsters come out with this
“Writing ahead of Thursday’s vote, he said: “Gordon Brown emerged as the only genuine statesman in this whole sorry business. He embodies the very qualities that makes the rest of the world admire the Scots: integrity, decency and an unshakeable belief in the ability of public service to bring about a better society.”
link to mirror.co.uk
Follow us: @DailyMirror on Twitter | DailyMirror on Facebook
Eric Joyce telling us the UK is corrupt? Is that not a bit like a bear telling us about the crap it’s just done in the woods?
Jim McIntosh says:
21 September, 2014 at 10:48 am
O/T – i do voluntary work on a Saturday that requires me to wear a suit. I’ve worn a small YES lapel pin for the past year or so.
A NO ‘colleague’ came up to me yesterday and noted that I wasn’t wearing it.
I said – ‘Yeah i’m not wearing my badge, but I see you’re still wearing your sneer’. That shut him up
=========
wear your badge
As well as reach out to the 55% of people living in Scotland who opted for dependency, while wanting to have powers which other people on this island do not have, we also have to seek allies in England, Wales and N.Ireland.
Our search for control over our lives, resources and strategic priorities strikes a chord with others.
The panicked promises made by Cameron, Clegg and Miliband have opened a can of worms that will not be brought under control without a clear move to devolved power from Westminster. This will ultimately prove that independent nations working together is the optimal solution.
Whether it ends up with the notion of a “void”, bought and lied for referendum result or a consistent move to natural devolution I can see positives for an independent Scotland.
In the meantime let’s focus on exposing the broken promises and ensure the liars are not re-elected in 2015 or 2016.
With all the cries for the demise of Labour in Scotland, can we not forget the likes of the Liberal Democrats in all this, they also need extinguished.
I take a marxist view on clubs and political parties; Groucho not Karl.
Monday, i will break my rule and join the SNP.
Hell I may even lob a bob at Tommy Sheridan, Jim Sillers, the Greens and the SSP to balance it all off.
We must stick together and beat the scum who need to intimidate us to keep their place in the bottom end of the food chain.
The real target is the ones at the top and their collabos in Labour.
The Tories exist to pillage the Nation’s wealth for the Upper class and business chums.
Labour exists to manage the expectations of unwashed.
Devereux
Rubbish. There are no new powers suggested, only new responsibilities and even they are not properly defined.
Where did I say we are getting independence this year?
@Robert Louis
Ding, ding! Round two. 🙂
Mirror goes on Brown is “He makes Alex Salmond look like what he really is: a cheap, huckstering, deceitful charlatan, a mountebank in it for nothing but himself.”
Ok fine and Scotland voted for Crash and whatever the fcuk THE VOW is but Scotland also voted for austerity teamGB and it is just complete outrageous that same NO vote should continue to pocket all the benefits and “freebies” that this cheap, huckstering, deceitful charlatan mountebank called Alex Salmond worked so hard to get and provide. “I vote NO but I want my free bus travel. I voted NO but do not hike my council tax, I’m skint already etc ”
If you’re in the NO and Salmond made your life better in any way, give it all back you lovely raging proud Scot but hypocrites.
Also, you can see why I’m not in politics. SNP Scots.gov have to keep going if only to get elected next time, which considering the raw savgery of the BBC and all TeamGB media , even winning Holyrood again to try and keep back LabConDem slash and burn is going to be very hard.
Salmond was brilliant on murgnahan
worth watching if can find a clip
@Dave McEwan Hill says:
Merely suggesting we play the long game. Not much else left open…..
As ever, the Labour party’s endemic hatred of the SNP caused them to forget the needs and wishes and hopes of people they represented>
To beat the SNP they conned the people into voting No.
Any interpretation that a No win was a vote for the union is delusional.
Ha ha ha ha No voters!
Andrew Neill on Politics Show interviewing some Tory non entity MP calling for the end of the Barnett Formula. He also says “well, look, things were said in the heat of the referendum” – does that give them a right to renege on the vows?
Empty words from Joyce. Labour are finished. 1.6m vote SNP 2015.Send this party back the fringes. I don’t want any part of this so called United Kingdom.I saw the British in George Square.
I don’t want any sort of crap revokable devolution. I campaigned and voted Yes for independence. Scotland needs to be a completely independent sovereign nation and it needs it now. Nothing else will do.
Regarding a name for the parties and organisations who campaigned for independence, and who are preparing to fight in the next GE against the Unionist parties.. I would like to suggest the Free Scotland Alliance
So, 55% of Scots dont want independence? Although I had been hopeful of a breakthrough, I cant say i”m surprised.
Scots have always had a strange attitude towards their own place of birth and i’m not going to try and analyse their behaviour, suffice to say I believe it is unique, having visited many countries throughout the world. No other country would denigrate their own peoples, nor harbour so many ("Quizmaster" - Ed)s, as the Scots appear to do.
I’m one of the 45% and, like most, believe we are not going anywhere, being shackled to the union corpse.
Heres how I see the only way forward:
The SNP foundation should be built upon, and banish all talk of founding alternate parties, that plays straight into the divide and rule ploys of the unionists.
Get a majority of SNP members into the house of commons in 2015, by which time I suspect “scottish” labour will be dead and buried.
The SNP should then declare the referendum result null and void, on the grounds that the unionist last minute promises were never met.
They should then force a rerun of the referendum, by which time we can hopefully squeeze another 5% to win.
If the unionists think we Scots will be another pushover, as they have in the past, then they will have to think again!
I heard Chuka Umunna MP on radio 5 Live this morning saying it was a fallacy that Labour could not win a majority of MPS from England. He cited the example of past Labour governments won from an English majority. This was in response to the idea that Labour would always naturally oppose the concept of an English Parliament.
We all knew this here of course, but Chuka is saying the exact opposite of all that Labour crap about solidarity and leaving the people of England doomed to perpetual Tory rule. This was Labour’s story right up to 18th September.
Don’t listen to Labour.
John Swinney saying the SNP will argue for real Devo Max, only sharing defence and foreign affairs. This can be achieved with a Yes movement, not a political party, standing in each constituency in the UK elections. We can wipe the Westminster parties off the map and hold the balance of power. Let’s do this.
“I am glad that Scots voted No. But …, the vote was a fraud and the UK is corrupted beyond repair”
What on earth is the attraction of Westminster? Maybe he can exercise his cognitive dissonance by throwing a Nazi salute in George square and punching one of his fellow Brits
I’m not sure the last NO flyer ‘If you don’t know – vote NO’ convinced anyone, but a YES one directed at the over 60s saying ‘If you’re doing it for your kids and grand kids, make sure you ask them first’ might have.
Ah the wonder of 20/20 hindsight.
“But if we were lied to…”
Right you are.
It is also a name that allows the press to do a number on them and play with the word Nationalist which like it or not most people fear.
That implies that they wouldn’t do exactly the same with any other name you cared to come up with. I’m proud to be a nationalist. If anyone tells me that there’s something wrong with nationalism I will simply disagree with them.
link to theguardian.com
Panic on the streets of Westminster. If they are serious, who’s the catalyst behind all of it again?
SNP and oh yes “a cheap, huckstering, deceitful charlatan, a mountebank in it for nothing but himself.” sneers the ghastly Daily Mirror.
There was loads of horrible irony going down last week.
People with a free bus for life were standing in polling booths going Naw Thanks, I’m teamGB me and Naw thanks I’m not paying anymore council tax in Scotland.
Something’s got give. The weirdest part of all was watching teen Scots Naw thanks leaping up and down at their NO win, while the SNP Scots.gov defends free universal education from SlabDonDem fraudsters.
Time for a serious rethink now. There is not going to be another referendum for decades and we are all teamGB now. So start paying your way NO vote Scotland.
And no bloody whining when your free prescription suddenly costs a tenner a pop and you have to start buying health insurance from Richard fcuking Virgin Branson, sorry Sir Richard.
Reap what you sow BetterTogether Scotland.
Robert Louis at 10.31
“Either way, let’s set out to trash Labour in Scotland.”
Agreed
….and agreed also that Tommy is a class act. Or should I say “nearly a class act”.
If Tommy was the complete political class act he would have let the News of the World report that exposed his infidelity go without comment while he dealt personally with those close to him on it.
To be a class act now he has to hold his hands up now to having been a bad and foolish boy but more particularly he should get down on his knees and beg forgiveness from those very decent people he damaged in the party he built and then destroyed.
It wasn’t the shagging, Tommy. It was the self serving destruction of lots of good people that followed when you got caught at it.
The fact of the matter is that there are a lots of far worse people in power at the moment so FFS Tommy bite the bullet because we need your talents.
Back to the topic. There is a huge groundswell now towards independence. Anybody who thinks we should even entertain discussion about more powers is clueless.
Anybody who tries to persuade us to do so on this site or elsewhere should be seriously examined with a very critical eye.
Let our enemies waste their time with it while we sign up for independence up the biggest mass movement this country has ever seen
The Barnett Formula red herring. Higher public spending in Scotland. Higher private spending of public money in the rest if the UK.
Oil taxes 90% Tax revenues evaded through the City of London. 00% HMRC not fit for purpose. Scottish Oil revenues far exceeds any higher public spending in Scotland. UK gov spending on private sector in the rest of the UK is far higher than in Scotland.
Blatant Tories lies.
UK gov have total control over Scottish finances. Raising and spending. The BBC lies.
Ie Total axes raised in Scotland £60Billion Taxes raised in the rest of the UK £540Billion. £100Billion borrowed and spent in the rest of the UK. Scotland gets £45Billion back and has to pay £4Billion on debt repayments on the £100Billion borrowed and spent in the rest of the UK.
Scotland – Holyrood should have borrowing and SPENDING powers. Not spending it’s finances on illegal wars and tax evasion in the City of London and the other disastrous Westminster policies, including sanctioning the vulnerable and having them walking to food banks. Scotland has always balanced the books and been in surplus, which goes to Westminster.
If there’s one consolation out of this defeat, then it’s this: the death of the labour party.
By allying themselves with the conservatives, Labour will suffer in Scotland when further austerity kicks in and we get five more years of Cameron. Nobody will blame the SNP, the finger will be pointed at Labour.
To compound his ineptitude, Milibland has allowed Cameron to steal a march on him with English MPs voting for English laws. If Ed rails against this, he suffers. If he supports this, then England’s natural conservatism will hamstring labour at Westminster.
Rightly or wrongly, the GE will be fought on UKIP’s agenda – EU and immigration. Ed had dithered over an EU referendum and again will suffer.
I cannot believe that labour were so stupid not to see this coming…
Considering Labour’s stronghold, Glasgow, voted Yes, I take it for granted Ms Lamont will resign.
“All Labour requires to do is take a leaf out of the Yes campaign book and do some hard work at the grass roots level. Engage with the electorate. Get your hands dirty, roll up your sleeves”
Seriously?
Labour where in bed with the entire coalition in preventing the democratic process to proceed unhindered in the referendum. They along with the entire british establishment set about on a campaign to lie, obsfucate and frighten the entire populace into voting NO.
From Gordon Brown’s closed meetings under the banner of United Together where the majority of thier audience where pensioners, telling them that they would lose thier pensions, to Alistair Darling telling us we would lose our money and therefore would become a basket case economy as we would run ourselves into debt with no lender of last resort. To the coalition government issuing instructions to our embassies to ‘talk down’ Scottish Independence right through to David Cameron phoning and meetiing with business leaders telling us we would even have difficulty buying our food as they would put our prices up, our oil was running out (only in Scotland though not UK), our banks would desert us…the list goes on.
Oh yeah, Labour rolled thier sleeves right up and fully engaged with thier peeroots movement alright…and in the process got thier hands really really dirty!
Mr Joyce, I don’t know you, and all I can really surmise from your piece above is a sense of a man ‘covering’ his back, I and many are beyond the ‘rhetoric’ and ‘minutiae’ of the navel gazing of the Labour party in trying to figure out thier next move. You should have started your article with your last six words “…the UK is corrupted beyond repair.” That is the truth.
I joined the Scottish Green Party two days ago, and know of at least 6 of my friends who have also joined other pro indy parties within the last 48 hours. I may have joined the Green party but I wll be tactically voting in the GE by voting in the SNP. Labour party (branch members in Scotland)your days are numbered.
This only reaffirms to everyone that devolution is a halfway house where no one is happy. I like most others here voted for it as a step towards independence.
Unionists seem to have problems grasping this.
@Black Douglas
Thanks for the link Black Douglas link to facebook.com
The party of Scotland appealed to the best qualities in our nature, the others exhorting us to vote No appealed to the basest – self-interest.
8000 new SNP members? That is magnificent.
I appreciate Eric Joyce having the courage of his convictions – he has more backbone than the rest of the Labour Party put together. I don’t agree with him but that’s life.
I believe the whole referendum was fraudulant; fraudulant in the sense that to gain ‘victory’ the No campaign relied on lying with the support of media. How many of the over 65s would have voted Yes if the KNEW their pensions were safe?
You should not have to misinform and use sleight of hand to win a case. There is and never was a positive case which is why we never heard about one.
I handed a WBB to a friend for her mum and Auntie, both of whom would not even read it effectively because the News said otherwise.
If I go into a pensioners house and con them into handing over money to me I become a crook, a conman, and I rightly would be sent to jail. Someone, please tell me what the difference is here?
Who was that muppet MP on the Sunday Politics – Dominic something? Andrew Neil finally arguing that Scotland is not subsidised, oil revenues etc, and he comes out with “English taxpayers contribute to the cost of extracting the oil!”
I never thought I would use this phrase but Scots are better together. All this talk of new parties etc is a waste of time and counter productive.Unite in 2015 to beat the Labour party and vote SNP. There should be a yes 2 campaign for 2015 to encourage people to vote SNP. The ticket would be return an SNP majority 2015 and we have a mandate for a referendum on independence. In fact technically we have a mandate for independence full stop. The important thing is a majority at Westminster is not the same as Holyrood its binding!
I belong to Glasgow. Still can’t really grasp how important their YES vote is.
@John Mcleod 8:44am
John,
For me this is the fundamental reason why something like Federalism cannot and will not work in the UK.
The solution to all of this is independence. It would quite literally put everything to bed in one go.
Some SNP MSP’s are calling for a “Yes Alliance” this morning between Greens, SSP & themselves. This is the way to go in my opinion. Surely if we returned a clear majority of “Yes Alliance” MP’s to Westminster we have instant grounds for a snap referendum or even possibly a mandate to simply declare independence?
Westminster will never find a solution for Scotland. They’re simply trying to pin custard to the ceiling.
Let’s keep Wings and the Yes movement going in top gear. We’re closer to our goal than some believe!
Devereux at 11.08
We have always been playing the long game and we have always known that.
But the destination has always been clearly described and has never changed.
Of course we will support any new powers for Scotland. That is very different however from putting aside our objective, even temporarily,to do so
Our constancy without destructive diversion is why we are where we are today – a tiny percentage of votes away from independence with a new generation which supports it coming into the front line.
At this point it is very important not to undermine the clear commitment of the thousands of new young people who have just joined us for INDEPENDENCE
The Labour spin for 2015 will be don’t vote SNP and let the Tories in. Dear God surely our dithering sycophantic no voters won’t fall for that one again.
We must not campaign for devo max. We must use this empty promise as a stick to beat them with.
We must destroy the unionist parties in Scotland and to do so we must remain visible as a movement. We must show that we are not going away. It was not a decisive result for the union. 45% voted yes.
Bombard your unionist mps and msps. Keep a presence on msm comment pages.Boycott the unionist shills. Educate your neighbours. keep up the pressure.
Finally, keep your yes badges on.
Andrew Neil raving on Sunday politics “Why should Scotland get more than Wales or N.Ireland. Raving it is wrong. Is this guy Scottish? Oh he is but….. Shameful.
Can I just say rev, thank you for everything during the campaign. You have been an asset and helped many people like myself and my dad to open our eyes. I hope you get put into team scotland and continue the fight for scotland x
The entire No campaign was conducted in the most heinous, abusive, mendacious, and threatening lines possible, happily aided and abetted by the British press and media.
That corrupted, monstrous process does not constitute democracy.
yeah a YES alliance
owe a lot to those campaigning glasgow
My thoughts on the demographics of the No voters:
A fairly significant proportion of No voters are not elderly or ‘working class’ but ‘middle class’ – homeowners in white collar, salaried positions – I’d guess they’re what you’d call Thatcher’s children. That’s the dream they were sold and they’re living it – or at least aspiring to it.
During the campaign I was struck by the constant references to the ‘working class’. Why? Is independence not for everyone?
To tell them that independence would make social equality a reality, by protecting and even enhancing the welfare state, would send one very clear message to them – we’re going to get clobbered for tax to pay for it. Remember that they’ve also been sold the slogan of the ‘undeserving poor’. If they’re voting New Labour it’s because they think that’s the party that gives them Tory values but with just a hint of social conscience thrown in.
Now whether you are care about their mindset or not, you have to address it. You have to engage these No voters.
So which of the arguments for Yes were targeted particularly at those people?
For example, where was the Fracking issue in the campaign? A great swathe of the Central Belt of Scotland is being earmarked for fracking. Now, this is a disaster environmentally but also, for those middle class homeowners who don’t have the environmental argument at the top of their agenda, there’s the distinct possibility that even the threat of this could cut property values by up to 80%. The reality could mean compulsory purchase orders and leave land unfit to rebuild on.
Don’t you think that if they have that information coupled with a clear, robust and genuine anti-fracking policy commitment (whether SNP, Green or both), then they would have a REASON to cast their votes in that direction, surely.
It would also give more traction to the case for the oil (and, by association, for the removal of Trident to enable extraction) as well as the case for renewable alternatives.
Did anyone canvass them with this info? Any leaflets, perhaps? I suspect not.
For the next campaign, include this group of Labour voters and take the arguments to them.
Forgive me if I’m wrong, but in a “No Scottish (or Welsh, or Irish) votes on English matters” system, would that not mean that a Scottish leader of any of the three main parties would have to leave the chamber for votes on English matters he (or she)might well have proposed as leader of their party?
Would it not also mean that a non-English leader of one of the Westminster parties would not be able to campaign on issues which are English only. What if the Prime Minister, Deputy PM and Chancellor of the Exchequer were non-English?
How exactly would it work in a general election? Would it mean Scottish issues were ignored in favour of English issues. Would English issues be the issues parties ran their General Election campaigns on? Would they expect non-English MPs to sing along with that? Would they expect the people of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to accept that?
Let’s say Westminster decided to try and host a ridiculously expensive event in London, with people from around the world, and which event only really benefits people and businesses in London, but is paid for by the UK government and thus costs each constituent member of the Union money in debt repayments, despite not having anything to do with the event – like, oh, say, the Olympics – who would have the votes on whether to fund it? English MPs only, since it only takes place in England? All MPs, since every country gets saddled with the debt for it? Would non-English MPs be able to campaign for it? If the leader of any of the party in power was not English would they have to abstain?
Plus, there is Scottish oil. Surely under such a system only Scottish MPs should get to vote on how Scottish oil is used,and where the revenues go? After all, if issues on how revenues raised from English sources are a matter for only English MPs, and how money in England is spent is a matter for English MPs, then the same must apply to Scottish resources and revenues, with the exception of non-transferable things like defence.
There is no way to settle the West Lothian question under the present setup which does not leave Labour essentially crippled in Westminster for a good proportion of the time, which is why Miliband is so desperately backpedalling over his “vows” – and which makes Brown spewing this crap so much worse, since, as an ex Labour Prime Minister, he knows this perfectly well, and he also knew that any transfer of further powers to Holyrood (whether real or imagined) was going to lead to an “English votes for English matters” standoff.
With Glasgow voting YES, its going to interesting to see just how hard UKOK unionists keep trying to flog their devo to the cities of Scotland NOT Holyrood scam. Smiley face fascism liked it last week but probably not so much the next.
link to theguardian.com
“The prime minister, vindicated in his decision to stage a yes/no referendum, also revealed he had asked Lord Smith of Kelvin to implement the Scottish devolution reforms set out by the party leaders in the final weeks of the referendum campaign.
He announced that the government would shortly say more about the devolution of further powers to the cities and regions of the UK.”
Sure they will and who on earth is Lord Smith of Kelvin and what kind of farce democracy is this when they can just appoint any old colonial overseer to get their frauds going anyway.
Did anyone anywhere vote for Lord Smith?
Over 8,000 people have joined the SNP since Friday!
link to mobile.twitter.com
“I’m not sure the last NO flyer ‘If you don’t know – vote NO’ convinced anyone, but a YES one directed at the over 60s saying ‘If you’re doing it for your kids and grand kids, make sure you ask them first’ might have.
Ah the wonder of 20/20 hindsight.”
I posted that very suggestion, along with some others, on pensioners for indy facebooks over a year ago.
Also posted Scott Minto’s excellent pension’s article when it became available.
Knew Labour would concentrate on frightening the most vulnerable, the aged, the disabled, the under 18s. It is their MO.
But I’m sure there more than a few of us Cassandras around.
Yes badges and wristbands back on guys and gals. 😀
Wait till you see the response you get now after the DeVOW AXED.
The westminster elite have managed to fuck things up in record time. SNP membership going through the roof right this second. Astonishing stuff! 😮
There is something distinctly repugnant about Gordon Brown electing himself Governor General of Scotland.
The Scot who became Prime Minister of the UK did nothing for his homeland appoints himself champion of it.
If I hear him utter another word I think I will puke.
So fucking angry right now, Salmond was right NO voters were deceived into voting no. Saw a part of a Gordon Brown speech on Sunday Politics, where he stated that he has spoken to the speaker in the House of Commons for a debate on 14th August.
That directly contradicts the no campaign leaflet that a motion would be passed on September the 19th. He knows that they could never have passed a motion since parliament is in recess from 12th September to 13th October.
Gordon Brewer hasn’t mentioned this ONCE to Labour MP Danny Alexander.
Robert Louis @ 10.01 am –
Absolutely brilliant, Robert. Your contribution deserves an article of its own considering they can publish stuff from the likes of Joyce on here.
Hopefully come the 2015 GE the Yes side will have got their act together and only one single pro-indy candidate will be put forward in each constituency. I won’t care which party I’m voting for – SNP, SSP, Green, Fancy Dress – as long as these troughing, parasitical, lying bastards in labour are hoofed into the garbage bin of history where they belong.
@Big Jock
The whole point of the Yes campaign is that it wasn’t all about the SNP. It brought together a whole range of parties and organisations. The No campaign on the other hand were the British establishment, nothing more nothing less.
In my humble opinion the Yes campaign was incredibly energetic and passionate about the cause, they were like tigers, in comparison at times the SNP were like kittens, they let the media and No campaign walk all over them and they failed to enthuse the public.
We need to continue in that way in the Westminster elections, bring the Greens, SSP, Labour for indy and any other party under one umbrella to destroy Labour and get a mandate for real Devo Max, which will lead to independence in a very short space of time.
Leave party politics to Holyrood.
@Grouse Beater
The entire No campaign was conducted in the most heinous, abusive, mendacious, and threatening lines possible, happily aided and abetted by the British press and media.
That corrupted, monstrous process does not constitute democracy.
HEAR HEAR!!!!! All the politicians involved in the Yes campaign should state that clearly each time they have an opportunity especially when they are speaking on the British broadcasting corruption.
The Mail front page to Scots ” DO NOT ASK US AGAIN” says it all really.
Take a long walk of a short pier Mr. Joyce.
You knew they lied, you know now they lied.
Just FO.
Brewer the imbecile, crowing as usual, now that the six figure salary is ensured. Doesn’t give a damn about the food banks in Glasgow,
For the 2015 Westminster election, could the SNP, SSP and Greens agree to select one candidate between them for each constituency? This would have the advantage of showing that independence is not just about the SNP or Alicsammin (or his successor). The parties could divide up the constituencies to maximise their strengths.
For example, in Ayrshire the SNP could continue to target North Ayrshire & Arran, and Kilmarnock & Loudoun, where they are strongest. The SSP could contest Central Ayrshire, where they would do well, and the Green Party could contest Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock. All would fight under the Yes banner. All independence supporters could work together to support each other’s candidates, building on the spirit and friendships developed during the Yes campaign. It would send a powerful message to Westminster that they can’t divide us.
Here we go. Andrew Marr is pushing it and now Andrew Neil is on the same idiotic kick.
HOME RULE FOR ENGLAND
This is absolutely silly and it is going to get a great deal more silly before we are all very much older. The Establishment are still refusing to face the situation and thus they are failing to identify the simple and real problems they have created for themselves. That is, of course, because they do not want to see it.
The Westminster establishment has made itself the de facto Parliament of England by devolving powers to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland but not also devolving powers to a parliament of England. That means the job of making the legally bipartite, “United Kingdom”, which title plainly describes a treaty between the only two Kingdoms whose signatures are on the Treaty of Union paper. However, in 1707, that Kingdom of England contained three countries having annexed the Principality of Wales with, “The Statute of Rhuddlan”, (1284. It had also annexed the whole of Ireland by, “The Crown of Ireland Act”, (1642). It had also had, “The Glorious Revolution”, (1688). This deposed the monarchy of the English Kingdom but could not depose the monarchy of Scotland as the two kingdoms were still independent until 1707. The English crowned the imported King Billy & Mary and removed from them the royal veto over the parliament of England. This made the three country Kingdom of England, <"A Constitutional Monarchy", and began what England wrongly claims even yet as, “The Jacobite Revolution”, but, as you cannot rebel against a monarch not your own, was an uprising agains a foreign monarch being forced upon Scots. Hence they then, (the English), needed a Treaty of Union.
Thus the bipartite Treaty of Union was legally broken by splitting the United Kingdom up as four countries while not also ending its status of being a bipartite Kingdom. Worse still Westminster, by not instigating a separate Parliament of the country of England, they made the Westminster Parliament double as the United Kingdom Parliament AND The Parliament of the Country of England. So we now have the really daft situation of 533 English United Kingdom MPs instantly becoming also The un-devolved members of a Country of England MPs. With only a total of 117 other members in The House of Commons, (59 Scots, 40 Welsh and 18 N. Ireland), those 533 English MPs dominate both the Parliament of the United Kingdom and the de facto Parliament of the Country of England. So can anyone see any real justification for the people of England being up in arms to claim even more powers for those, already two hatted, English Members?
The governance of the former United Kingdom can only be solved two ways. Each former two independent KINGDOMS returning to independence or Westminster becoming ONLY a federal parliament of the former United Kingdom’s four COUNTRIES and England having its own country Parliament. As long as Westminster remains the de facto parliament of England devolving English powers to the other countries the problem cannot be solved. over 7,000 former Labour Party members have have joined the SNP & a further couple of thousand have gone to the Greens.
There will be a reduced Tory, LibDem and Labour presence at both Holyrood & Westminster and all of them finished in the next Scotland.
Les, and there is the problem….We have to ask them.
In these politics programs, why does the likes of J.Swinney do not point out the vote rigging that went on, the proof is out there. I have heard NO ONE on our side take this up on TV or air.
I see many people are saying that a good chunk of those who voted no are regretting it. I do not think that is true. I think it will be true at some point in the future but not yet.
I do not agree that we could win a referendum held tomorrow, as someone upthread claimed.
We lost. Get used to it.
Those who voted no went through the whole campaign just as we did. Whatever their reasons fro voting no, nothing has changed much overnight: they did not reach their conclusions in a few days and they won’t change in a few days either
Time to get real, people
Grouse Beater,
‘I take it for granted Ms Lamont will resign.’
I do hope not, from my point of view I think she is an excellent ‘leader’!
I resent seeing a No voter have a platform to promote his views. I’m sure I’m not alone.
scotspine says:
They are rolling with glee that they screwed us, and they certainly did that. The MSM are shameful, Labour is shameful, this was a conspiracy of big proportions, evidence if we need it is everywhere. No, after we lick our wounds we will return.
Westminster will be tying them in knots over the powers promised, they will not get delivered, we will be offerred some kind of fudge. Then things restart!
My wife just sent this to the Express and Sunday Express regarding, among others, the foul sneering at the Rev
link to uk-mg-bt.mail.yahoo.com?.partner=bt-1&.rand=ccb3uicil1t8k
Think I’ve messed that up. How do I get an email from my sentbox to here regarding Express comment about Rev?
Independence for Scotland will be achieved in our lifetimes. This is no longer a matter of “if” but merely one of “when”.
I say this as someone who cannot vote because I live in the south of England. As someone whose entire family north of the border voted “no”. As someone who has supported Labour all of my life, at least until now.
The demographics do not lie. 1.6 million people voted for independence. Younger voters were more likely to say “yes” than older voters. 50,000 new sixteen year-olds will be added to the potential referendum electorate every year. Approximately the same number of deaths will occur every year, mostly amongst the older generation, the majority of whom voted “no”. Assuming that “yes” voters do not switch to the “no” side in any significant numbers, the mathematics makes it merely a waiting game.
We seem to hold our referendums on the 700th anniversary of glorious moments from the 13th and 14th century wars of independence, ie, the parliamentary referendum in 1997 (the 700th anniversary of Wallace’s victory at Stirling) and the independence referendum in 2014 (the 700th anniversary of Bruce’s victory at Bannockburn). Applying this same logic, the next independence referendum could be as early as 2020 (700th anniversary of the Declaration of Arbroath) or as late as 2028 (700th anniversary of the Treaty of Edinburgh-Northampton, which recognised Scottish independence). That may seem like a very long wait for many here, but we’ve already waited 307 years…
@Fairliered
For the 2015 Westminster election, could the SNP, SSP and Greens agree to select one candidate between them for each constituency?
This is what I believe should and will happen. They will all come together as a movement rather than a political party to defeat Labour and get the best Devo agreement possible.
Just copy the text and paste?
We’re on plan b folks, chill, Andrew Neil asked Alex Salmond whether he was going back to Westminster and then let him dodge the question with an answer only about the House of Lords. What could the SNP achieve holding the balance of power in Westminster? Politics is getting really interesting.
I at 75 also been for independence before a lot here were born. do not blame older people living minimum state pension being the target from the start. the Westminster virus (fu jack I am alright)from the effluent. sorry affluent akashite.
I do not get why people seem to think the SNP could hold the balance of power at Westminster, as a likely outcome
So far as I can see UKIP will do that: they have the unswerving support of the BBC and the rest of the media: and we know what that means
Today, Sunday, politicians who fought so viciously against the people of their own country congregate in the Kirk of Hypocrisy to pay homage to the notion of ‘unity.’
They are singing their hymn now:
‘Let us forget how we did cheat to beat you. Come together as friends so we may repeat again, the defeat that broke you.’
Surmising that a lot of families will be dropping in on the grandparents today, being Sunday. Wonder how many teenagers will ask, “Grandpa, why did you vote No?”.
Peter Hitchens piece in The Dail Mail online (I won’t link to it) is very pragmatic. ‘England beware: The Scots will punish us terribly if they think we’ve conned them.’
Hitchens was in Scotland during the vote and spoke to some at polling stations in Fife. The gist of the piece is, as you’ve probably guessed, if Westminster renages on further devolution then Scotland will rise up again with a more powerful YES vote. He also noted the importance of OAPs in securing the NO vote and said give it 10 years and the country will have a natural YES majority ss the older NO vote dies off.
Let’s fight for a devolved media and a dissolved Labour party.
This campaign has inspired all of us to continue this fight, and when we eliminate the poison that has held this country back for years, we will be an unstoppable force able to stand up and tip the corrupted establishment. 45 % seen through the lies, we have a large part of the population more engaged than ever before. If the ignorant parties of WM think this will blow away, they are totally wrong.
The dream will never die.
An SNP surge in Scotland has as much chance of holding balance of power as UKIP, especially if Alex stands with all his knowledge and experience of Westminster politicking and mischief making. Scotland has a track record of successful tactical voting, England on the whole less so
O/T and don’t know if mentioned previously, but you can register with DotScot to book a .scot email address. I believe they should come soon.
Was told last week that slab were at post offices scaring the elderly with their lies re pensions and cross border NHS services.
They need calling out on that as soon as.
According to my sons friend there are reports on social media saying there were thousands of postal votes missing.
English taxpayers contributed NOTHING to extracting the Oil. Just secretly took the revenues and spent it in London. Scotland has never seen one penny of it. £200Billion down the swanney. Thatcher cancelled a pipe line wasting the equivalent of £Billions of Gas. Would not pay one penny if it, despite taking the equivalent of £Billions of tax. One of her Ministers resigned. The papers released recently had her signature on it. ‘This must be kept secret’. Forsyth and Lang were her henchmen.
Thatcher tried to get the pipe line to Newcastle. Paid for by the Oil companies. It got to Edinburgh – Grangemouth. It should have been at Peterhead, the nearest land mass.
Thatcher devastated the whole Scottish manufacture sector. Closed down everything. ‘Unemployment in the North was a price worth paying for jobs and prosperity in London S/E’
Official Tory policy.
Osbourne/Akexander increased Oil tax 11% (£2Billion) a year in the 2011Budget. Lost Scotland £4Billion a year. Sold off Royal Mail and lost £Billions but made £Millions for Osbourne’s best man and brother in law.
As far as the people of Glasgow and Dundee are concerned, Labour shafted its own loyal supporters.
Let the poor and the disenfranchised rise up and demand justice.
@Now’s the Hour
Well I know of one young fellow who can’t look at grannie. Apparently she took great delight in telling the family she voted NO because she liked queenie.
The point I was trying to make is that a majority SNP at Westminster = legal mandate for independence! I am sure that this was always the case before Holyrood came along.
Sheesh!
Today we have two Labour Party back-bench MPs, one of whom is a self confessed former MP who seldom bothers to attend Westminster sittings, making promises they personally cannot fulfil nor can their out of power party hope to fulfil and they and their party may never again regain power.
The fact that both these failed back-bench members are also failed Chancellors and one was the most inept and unpopular failed Prime Minister ever, only makes their promises even more empty. This daft political farce has become even more farcical than a Brian Rix Farce. (Oh! Dear! That really shows my age).
I’ll get my trousers, (a la Brian Rix).
Scotland, Going, Going, Gone – Grouse Beater
It was simple, vote NO get nothing. I’m not surprised, why are you ?
Albert Herring has gone off on another bender so I’m taking over now.
However we thought it might be worth reposting this from the other day as it seems relevant.
“Forget about referendums. We need to use elections.
I would like to see Yes Scotland re-brand itself as “Scottish Independence” and fight each seat in future elections with a single agreed candidate, drawn from the member parties, and standing where each party is strong.
For example, Patrick Harvie could stand as “Scottish Independence” in Glasgow’s West End, while Colin Fox stands as “Scottish Independence” in Pollok. SNP candidates would stand as “Scottish Independence” in the SNP heartlands. There would be nothing to stop the individual parties having their own manifestos, as long as they stood on the fundamental principle of Scottish independence.
“Scottish Independence” would have a non-politician leader (I would nominate Lesley Riddoch) which would confuse the media no end 😉
Winning any Westminster or Scottish election to be taken as a mandate for a declaration of independence, as the electorate would literally have voted for Scottish independence.
The rUK would be forced to the negotiating table by this democratic mandate, so we can avoid the difficulties of declaring UDI, whilst retaining that as the ultimate option.”
I’d add that referendums are very difficult to achieve and even harder to win. A referendum gives the British State the opportunity to bring its full power to bear against us. We need to go back to the old idea of gaining a mandate for independence through the ballot box at a General Election, whilst Westminster is otherwise occupied.
“Labour spin doctors are angry are angry about the way the media, and particularly the BBC, are presenting David Cameron’s “English votes English laws”…”
Ed Miliband interviewed on Marr – live
maybe labour supporters will join us at bbc
walofs
Having a chat about pensioners being told that they’d loose their pension was told that senior officers in Scot’s regiments in Germany were telling them they’d loose their jobs after a yes vote.
I was at a small polling station in a wealthy part of Edinburgh on Thursday night. I was acting as teller for the Yes votes.
At one point I was looking at 14 No voters (they all had NO or Naw stickers on) standing at the entrance to the station. I knew there was little chance of most of the voter visiting the station would be yes voters but I was taken aback by the bile, hostility to yes voters and leaders of the Yes campaign and the level of smugness of the group.
Several made it known that their children went to a local private school. There was no lack of expensive cars (4×4’s, Audi’s and the occasional Volvo seemed to dominate) pulling up saying hello to the group and ignoring me as if I was S…e under their foot.
Although hard to describe the atmosphere reeked of the privately educated, again the local private school seemed to dominate, well heeled, with jobs in the city (Edinburgh). I do not think any of this group are interested in more powers to Scotland as they seemed perfectly happy with the way thing are.
This may seem like a bit of a rant (or chippy as some say) but I am only trying to reflect my observations of the 2 hours I stood outside the polling station. I live in a nice part of Edinburgh with good state schools but I think this group suggests that the networks they enjoy have little room for most of the population which lives nearby. or as one said out loud “you mean the poor folk who live over there”
Just watched BBC in Scotland politics show punch home THE VOW is not a fraud and is really is coming lie. Paid shills never quit but neither will YES Scotland.
Interesting watching Brewer chat to dressed all in black Record politics ligger that gave us the Pray for your Union headline Wednesday, all in black but no dog collar? Northern Irish and very much a triumphant unionist fraudster in action. Still he is my countrymen for another few decades and naturally desperate to import and exploit as much sectariian fun and games as he can because it sells his garbage rag and saves the Union for the supper rich too.
Does anyone here think that if OIL was off the English and Welsh coasts only – Westminster would have had no problem with Scotland seeking Independence. We are perfectly able to be economically viable – and successful – even without oil but how does Westminster continue to borrow without these/our collateral reserves? The day after the vote it’s ability to borrow remained intact – so having the greatest debt per head in the developed world Westminster continues its self-serving personal wealth and selfish spending while too many others trudge to the foodbanks and remain in need.
I would translate the “pooling and sharing” more like the ‘draining and spending’ of Scotland’s oil. What have the Middle East ‘wars’ been about – theft …. oil theft. They killed hundreds of thousands – they are still dying – they used real bombs on those poor people at least ours were only ‘love-bombs’ – how much easier and less messy to tell lies.
Up until the vote it was places like this that cut down the deception that people like us who either have always known or those that came to learn to vote Yes. I cannot bring myself to believe this disingenuous love-bombing trash and the other contrived ‘marriage’ language of “vow” is equally foul – a ‘forced marriage’ of convenience if ever there was.
Sorry to repeat myself – but when Mr Salmond referred to “deferred yessers” as being a considerable proportion of the no voters – he must have known that although there would be a reasonable chance of winning when the fraudulent last minute promises/vows appeared, as he perhaps suspected knowing the blind panic associated with losing the Treasury’s only collateral when that poll showed a small lead for Yes, he probably knew what was coming.
So in his words it’s the “deferred yessers” we need – and ASAP – to regain Independence that so many of them appear to be regretting and which has virtually all of us ‘eyes wiped’ and on our front foot to implement Independence in our generation for our next generation.
The reason John Swinney doesn’t say the election was rigged is probably because he would have to have proof. Otherwise he would sound like an idiot conspiracy theorist.
Membership of the SNP is soaring in the last two days. It must be around 35,000 now. Meanwhile, membership of Labour was around 13,000 at the end of 2013 and will be plummeting now. Lib Dems even less, around 4,000 I think. Working to rid Scotland of these mendacious and nasty creeps is a noble aim. I agree with everyone above who advocates a YES coalition to work co-operatively to achieve this.
If you believe that the Liberals are less mendacious than Labour because of their “Home Rule” aims, please read a WoS post by Andrew Page in 2012 whch will shock you out of that delusion.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
@Big Jock. You and me on the same wavelength.
I want an overwhelming majority of Yes mps at Westminster. I also want a Yes Holyrood and then I want this to be shown as the will of the Scottish people for UDI.
Eric, its too bad you cannot clear the Westminster poison out of your system and arrive at the truth.
It was obvious when ‘The Vow’* was printed what the sequence of events would be… and we all know we have a corrupt UK political system. Why then would you cast a NO vote under these circumstances, unless you really believe what you infer in your article, that it might still happen.
*Deliberately capitalised because it will be as infamous as the McCrone report going forward.
Did I imagine it, or did Johann Lamont say on TV last week that if Westminster did not keep to their promise of more powers she would join the campaign against Westminster?
Whilst I think the main reason for our loss was OAP selfishness, Eric does make a point. Of course Westminster would only agree to powers coming north if the West Lothian question was resolved. Frankly, 17y after we voted for a Scottish Parliament, that it has yet to be resolved is a disgrace. Nobody in Scotland can justifiably argue for the WLQ. It’s obscene.
Arguably the content of “the vow” was utter pish, but if it comes across that the reason for its failure was the WLQ, that is the final betrayal.
Not mine but by a now ex Labour supporter.
‘Oh Cowards of Scotland
Hope to never see your like again
They came and they lied to ye
Don’t say that ye didnae ken
We stood against them (45)
Dave, Nick and Ed’s army
But they went homeward
Tae laugh again’
We must get rid of Flower of Scotland ASAP as our ‘national anthem’
Most NOs I herd advocating rejection of independence had one comon line “we don’t like Alicsamin”
So what is their excuse now?
@JillP
Yes she did say that,just add it to her many lies.
Lying is a requirement to be a labour politician.
Tried to register and post quite a few times..no luck yet.
SNP tweeted, they have now just over 9000 new members between Thursday and Midday today bringing membership to 34705 currently.
Just to say, my brothr-in-law (a YES voter) has said that he went to work on Friday and before the day was out most of the NO voters in his workplace were regretting the decision. Now multiply that with workplaces all over Scotland.
I don’t know why people would be too concerned about whether majority Labour or Tory MPs at Westminster. Is there a difference? I concede that neither do what they promise. Both end up behaving pretty much the same way.
Don’t vote for any of the liars.
We seem to be entering a widespread constitutional mess in the UK. The more that English people buy into the idea of devolved powers, the weaker Westminster’s grip becomes. More and more will ask why it exists.
“the UK is corrupted beyond repair”
Its always been that!.
I am old, I know what goes on in the corrupt world of power. All the political parties are the same, corrupted to the point of being not fit for purpose.
Let me explain just a little of what goes on in this sad world, many think the SNP are a great party, well no, their not. In truth there is no difference between many in the SNP and many in new Labour.
Let me explain what would have happened if Scotland had gained its (so-called) independence, many think that Trident would have left scottish shores, there was at no point any chance that Trident was going to leave Scotland, the SNP had years ago come to an agreement to keep Trident in Scotland. How you are asking?, they couldn’t get away with that, well, yes they could, during (so-called) bitter protracted negotiations, the scottish people would have been presented with a fait accompli, keep Trident and get full currency union with England, there may also have been a few more goodies throwing in for good measure.
Keep this in mind about what I have wrote, the SNP voted to become a member of NATO, only a far-right party would want to join NATO.
@Geoff
“If I go into a pensioners house and con them into handing over money to me I become a crook, a conman, and I rightly would be sent to jail. Someone, please tell me what the difference is here?”
This is the thing I will never forget and I am already repeating it and spreading it.
Andrew Haddow,
I think that is an excellent idea and needs to be sent to the parties.
link to theguardian.com
Incredible Scottish democracy in action last week, becomes masive political weapon for Tory party or all “UK parties” shock,
Cameron now wants give devo to everyone which will wipe out Labour in Westminster, his own extremists Tory nutters and above all UKIP.
Be carful what you lie about Crash. So hope Crash is screwed by his own Vote NO fraud. No voters don’t give a shit about anyone but themselves. They are no different from the I’m alright Jack middle class English, so why Crash went for this radical change devo just shows how much of buffoon he really is.
I almost feel bad for clueless Ed:D
Some people are in for a shock when they discover the SNP’s pragmatic response to this referendum result.
For years, the SNP was wary about beating the independence drum too loudly, attracting criticism from fundamentalists in its own ranks and elsewhere. I now believe that caution will return, and the SNP will position itself as a party for Scottish constitutional reform with the ‘i’-word rarely being uttered.
We must not kid ourselves. I don’t believe most people who voted No were all that fussed about ‘more powers’; they had other reasons. I still think a large number of people who wanted enhanced devolution, but not independence, actually ended up voting Yes, and that is why the opinion polls narrowed in the final weeks.
What this implies is that the 45% does not represent a solid bloc in favour of independence; change, yes. Whether firm support for independence catches up with the 45%, and ever exceeds it, depends on what happens at Westminster in the coming years.
I’m disappointed to see Eric Joyce MP given a platform here. I don’t think Wings is an appropriate place for expenses troughers to be mouthing off in self-justification unless they preface their words with a sincere apology. On the subject of boycotts, buy local unless the local producers voted against democracy; shop at Lidl or Asda, bank with Airdrie Savings Bank and/or Scottish Building Society; don’t buy newspapers; don’t pay TV licence; keep Yes groups thriving.
There is a difference between ‘playing politics’ and ‘lies and threats’
There is a difference between ‘media bias’ and ‘balanced or honest reporting’
There is a difference between ‘Democracy’ and‘Hegemony’
There is a difference between ‘win-win behaviour’ and ‘naked self interest’
There is difference between ‘defending your position’ and ‘hurting the vulnerable’ to claim your votes
In everyone one of these, Westminster and particularly Labour crossed the line
All in aid of big business and the establishment to beat the people.
The ‘movement’ needs an umbrella big enough for everyone to stand under.
I would agree that there IS something in a name. BUT…
A name that would not exclude people of differing political views – so no political words e.g. Socialist.
A name that would encourage support from all the disaffected throughout these islands, so no direct reference to Scotland (shock horror!)
A name that says we’re really going for it – putting the Move into Movement.
A name that is as positive as Yes.
I humbly suggest
FORWARD
And a slogan? Well, the word is it’s own slogan, though this had me chuckling:
pic.twitter.com/mftuc54cFA
Any thoughts?
and so it begins
Conservative backbench MPs drew up plans to force a vote in the Commons on the new Scottish devolution deal. Some predicted a rebellion that would “dwarf” the Tory uprisings over Europe if ministers did not scrap the Barnett formula, which gives Scotland proportionately more state funding than England.
christ – thought I was going to have to wait a wee while for this to start happening
BBC 1 is showing the patriotic war movie, In Which We Serve.
There’s nothing like ramming it down your viewer’s throat – eh?
What is everyone doing with the money saved from their TV licence?
Could we set up an Independence War Chest? A type of trust, run by an elected committee?
Imagine if we had 100,000+ paying this annually…
So Crash Gordon is now trying to convince himself that he is the Viceroy of Scotland.
He was an unelected, head of the London Labour Party, an unelected Prime Minister and now wants to be a unelected Viceroy.
Totally a deluded sociopath.
Scotland First
Scotland United.
It would be very easy to just blame the elderly for the NO winning the referendum but there is far more to it than that,I am knockin on in years but I never could have voted NO in a million years and there were many like me,I think the comfortably off were as much to blame selfishly not wanting to upset their complacent life style with not a consideration for the less well off,food banks,threat to the NHS and the rest truly Thatchers unholy offspring in Scotland of F.U. i’m allright Union Jack and the demographics of the vote backs that up.
As an east coaster it was truly heartening to see Glasgow,North Lanarkshire and West Dunbartonshire come good,I just hope all that great momentum is not lost in these areas and is kept up to flush labour down the lavvy at future elections after their treacherous alliance with the tories.
Can we please stop demonising sections of society? I’m sick of this Granny bashing. We could easily have a go on an area basis instead of an age basis. Let’s have a go at people from Edinburgh – don’t go there again they’re all fearties, etc.. If we’re sticking with an age basis I saw one analysis that suggested 18-24’s voted No, doesn’t fit in with the easy “old folk are scared” narrative. By all means analyse how we can change people’s minds but let’s look at it on a more rational basis. For a start let’s look at the assumption that the over 65 majority voted No because they were scared. How about the fact that the majority have consistently voted for Unionist parties for over 40 years? Classing them as scared doesn’t help us develop strategies to make them change their minds, it’s more likely to alienate them and reinforce their opposition. Finally when my granddaughter asked me today how I voted I was proud to say Yes. Rant over.
@Buckiebraes 12.54
“I don’t believe most people who voted No were all that fussed about ‘more powers’; ”
Actually, 25% of NO voters believed that they would get more powers as promised. That means 500,000 votes. If these powers are not forthcoming they should sue for breach of contract.
Please look and share – Thank you
link to indiegogo.com
@Big Jock
“The Labour spin for 2015 will be don’t vote SNP and let the Tories in. Dear God surely our dithering sycophantic no voters won’t fall for that one again.”
I fear that a lot of them will. It will be wall to wall UK media coverage and the SNP will be sidelined. Debates between Cameron, Milliband and Clegg (and maybe even Farage).
Their message will be repeated OVER and OVER and the sheeple will believe it. Some people think that it will be easy to unseat the Labour troughers. Nothing is further from the truth. Most of them have massive majorities which will be almost impossible to overturn.
How many times have the SNP won by-elections, Motherwell, Hamilton, Glasgow Govan,Glasgow East, only to see them return to Labour at the next General Election.
The only way to make any headway is to expose the Labour Party for all the LIES told during the Referendum Campaign and to keep on and on and on until it eventually sinks in. The Labour Party are the enemy of the Scottish people.
Some interesting ideas here: but first – join a pro-independence party and work hard for it: encourage cooperation with other pro-independence parties form within: encourage united support for whichever pro-independence candidate has best chance of winning in whatever constituency in whatever election. But join a viable party: talk of a new “Yes’ party will simply fragment energy and play into the hands of Labour which must be destroyed.
“give it 10 years and the country will have a natural YES majority ss the older NO vote dies off.”
In ten years time I will be a pensioner, `the older NO vote` will just re-cycle.
@saporian
Agreed. The lies told by BT must be exposed. It is imperative we get our own media up and running to do just that.
Greannach, sorry for some reason you endorse ASDA, eh no thanks for that!
Sorry,but I don’t think we are going to be diverted by putting attention on Westminster and whys and whataboutery,thats what the union naysayers want. Eventually,they will twist things their way to get you to vote Labour again,they really must think we are stupid.
No amount of subject changing or squirrel chasing will ever change my mind. Even if it cost me,I will NEVER vote Labour in the Union. Ever. As for the Cameron/Tory trick,you fell for it,you campaigned for it,betrayed the people for it,enjoy your decades of opposition.
@Saporian
Some people think that it will be easy to unseat the Labour troughers. Nothing is further from the truth. Most of them have massive majorities which will be almost impossible to overturn.
The Tories held 21 seats in in 1983, in the next election they lost more than half. BLAB are the new Tories and they will pay a heavy price next year.
Labour have 41 seats at the moment, if we can cut that by half or more it will signal the beginning of the end for them. The bastards will not be forgiven for what they did.
I’m not one for conspiracy theories – but
I have always felt that the so called school mini referendums that took place in the north east of Scotland
that returned overly large no votes (I think one was in the mid 70 percents) that this was test runs for fiddling the actual referendum.
The numbers of votes in the School mini referendums were quite large as it involved several schools voting.
My perception is that it would have provided an opportunity for certain organisations to try out and see if they can fiddle a vote without being detected.
May sound stupid or bizarre but these days I would not be surprised.
Take the idea for what it is , just a conspiracy theory and take it for a walk and see if it can run 🙂
kendomacaroonbar
nice idea but you need to wait until yesers get together and decide how they want to go forward
groups like WOS, bella, WGD, newsnet
if we all run off and fund separate wee groups then we are doomed
Join in with these big group – one call from rev and we can all raise a fortune
ps – bringing in scotland car flags and 45er tshirts folks
kinda like the “it wasna me”
and other ideas for slogans on t-shirts?
Caught a bit of an interview with Paddy Ashdown on Sky News this morning.
It would appear that the penny has dropped with old Paddy, though too little too late.
@Shuggy
I like it. But why not simply
‘YES’
Alternatively
‘Progress’
‘Future Scotland’
‘Fairness & Equality’
‘Envision Scotland’
‘Stand’
‘Change’
‘Global Scotland’
‘Tomorrow’s Scotland’
‘Re-generation Scotland’
link to informationclearinghouse.info
Looking forward into 2015 and 2016 poll from Survation tables:
link to survation.com
Join the SNP, every by election, every council election,don’t splinter apart into little tree hugging parties in the back of pubs singing Kum By Ya and bemoaning the expected treachery of the Anti-Scottish parties.Do’nt be fooled by delaying tactics,i’ve seen all this before
Scare them shitless, back our Government to the hilt give them the mandate and power to use for us
Our Guv did an extraordinary job considering the forces of darkness used against them
Do we trust NC, with Alex behind her ABSOBLOODYLUTELY
@shuggy
What about YES AGAIN
Edward
please please believe the vote was not rigged – you will kill our chances of keeping this alive if you smear it which allegations of fraud which then turn out to be false
this is not the 1970’s there were 2 many yes supporter in the police and the counters for any fraud to happen
please people – stop these rumours dead in the water where you see them on twitter/facebook etc
Despite the result on Friday I believed then, and may have said so once or twice 😉 , that our fight for independence was NOT over. The Westminster *ahem* elite may sitting down in London sipping champers and back slapping each other on a “hob well done” but rest assured they are in for one hell of a rude awakening!
I have said in the last few days that I believe that we have the grounds for moving forward already set up, YES Scotland. What I mean by this is that for the last 18 months or so we have had people from the Greens, SSP, Jim Sillars, Tommy Sherridan, Labour for Indy, Women for Independence and a whole host of other excellent groups working hand in hand and shoulder to shoulder for a common goal. What we need to do now is to move out from under the YES Scotland banner and under a new banner, YES party for example, where all these magnificent groups can continue to work together for a common goal … the utter DESTRUCTION of Labour in Scotland.
In fact I have just heard about rumours that something akin to what I have been suggesting may be on the cards … watch this space as they say. 😉
What we need for next May is something like a YES party to put up a candidate in every seat in Scotland to stand against Labour and the other ("Quizmaster" - Ed) parties. By doing this we remove all the usual fighting for votes between the various parties and all work together to promote ONE candidate who will beat the unionist candidate. I would suggest something along the lines of an Independence Convention where ALL the independence groups and parties can gather and thrash out which party or group will put up a candidate in which seat.
This is doable people we just need the groups and parties to agree to do it. As I said I have heard rumours that something is afoot. When it becomes reality let’s all give it our full backing and send one very clear and unmistakable message to London … WE are still here. INDEPENDENCE is still here. NEITHER of us is ever going away!
Best deal YES can get today? Cameron sticks to his word, Scots income tax devo, Scots Wesminster MP’s barred from English affairs.
They keep the oil, Embro bankers spivs keep tax dodging, fascisfs like daily Mail owner keep their hunting estates, Trident 2 bobs up the Clyde, English incomers get to fly Union jack over Scotland and cringers get that creepy UKOK part of something bigger goodness like, British fascist thugs battering kids in George Square while BBC smooths it all over. A decade later, Scots vote YES for good.
Live long and prosper oor Eck.
Trying to join the SNP just now.
Website appears to be down though.
Speaking as an English supporter (yes, we do exist), I thought I should at least give you some ideas to consider.
But let me start with a warning. Right now there are a lot of conspiracy theories doing the rounds – for goodness sake, don’t fall for them or disseminate them. This will simply help discredit the 45. Be on the Left by all means, but don’t neglect the centre ground.
Secondly, you’ll need to do the following to get another referendum:
– Target Scottish Labour MPs and replace them with pro-Indy politicians.
– Maintain and develop the grassroots organisation you’ve built up.
– Nurture and support the 16-17 year olds who’ve discovered politics through the referendum. Even if they’re unionists, they should be encouraged as political engagement of any kind is a good start, and this will also help bridge the gap.
– Don’t get suckered with divide and rule. That’s exactly what they’re hoping you’ll do.
The next step is to learn from the debacle last week:
– Draw up a fool-proof, watertight, Russell Group/Ivy League-standard economic plan. Make damn sure it answers all questions and leaves no doubt.
– Emphasise that it’s not just the SNP who are in favour of independence. Don’t make it a referendum on how popular Nicola Sturgeon is.
– If you must have a figurehead, make it one with a broad appeal.
– Ask NO voters why they didn’t support YES. Learn why your message didn’t get through to them.
– Try to develop links with business and media. (Yes, I know this is hard to swallow, but as long as you don’t prostrate yourself, Tony Blair-style, it’s still a good idea.)
– Work out a strategy to deal with potential pitfalls and PR disasters. This means learning from what went wrong last week, as well as what went right.
– Start developing links with like-minded people in Northern England. You’re allies by default; time to work on that alliance.
– Whenever possible, triangulate.
It’s worth remembering that 45% in a referendum where you were under constant attack and almost no one in the media would give you any support is still an amazing achievement, perhaps one of the greatest moments in recent political history. But while passion is essential, it’s not enough on its own. You’ve got to maintain the movement you’ve created but also create a consensus. That means more hard work, but that’s something you’ve never been afraid of.
Personally, I’d go for Devo Max rather than full independence at this point. In part, this would be a much easier sell to the Doubting Thomases and Thomasinas, but it also means an Independent Scotland will be built on strong foundations. Salmond was a gambler. You have to be much more than that.
And yes, you will win and sooner than you think.
Sorry, typing error. Don’t go near Asda. Use Lidl or Aldi!
well said, Robert Louis at 10.01
Mr Joyce writes But if we were lied to and the government of the day reneges on ‘The Vow’, the vote was a fraud and the UK is corrupted beyond repair.
if, IF? I guess this is an example of Upton Sinclair’s observation It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.
Lesley-Anne – a great idea. Should a fund be set up to fund such a convention? Through the YES website? I would contribute. Thanks, BTW, for all your really helpful posting – and Nana too
wingman 2020 says:
What is everyone doing with the money saved from their TV licence?
Could we set up an Independence War Chest? A type of trust, run by an elected committee?
Imagine if we had 100,000+ paying this annually…
That is an interesting idea wingman. Perhaps once a new party alliance is set up, as I believe it will we could send our saved TV TAX money to the new alliance.
Please sign this petition to demand a public inquiry into the
Bias, Corruption and Exclusion of pro independence reports.
Only 100,000 signatures required in total,
Approximately 80,000 already in. Go for it!
link to you.38degrees.org.uk
Just to cheer you all up, if you put the SNP in at 45% on Scotland Votes, they end up with 52 seats to Labour’s 4 and the LibDem’s 3.
As Eric isn’t standing he won’t have to worry; the only pity is that one of Labour’s 4 will be mine even though he is already an ex-politician!
Thanks for your thanks goulashman. Doffs hat. 😉
Sorry Rev off topic I know, but I thought this was interesting – link to facebook.com
First we must not go away, secondly we must unite to achieve visible successes.
We are all from different spectrum of the political rainbow, but we all want a better Scotland. Yes/45 must continue in the short term, the demo at parliament should be a statement of our continuing struggle and our dissatisfaction at the conduct of the MSM and the parties and oligarchs they represent. But to go forward needs planing and commitment, the commitment i do not doubt but the planning requires goals that are achievable.
I think we as a group must act as if we are living in the first days of a better nation.
As such we should turn our movement into a force for good. Create the beginnings of an alternative MSM… it wasn’t devolved for a good reason, but we have the power and the seeds right here, we don’t have to accept that it is theirs and theirs alone.
By creating the organs of a state we head towards a state.
we have no control over macroeconomic policy, well make a bank, if Dave one man can do it then we can too. A bank that is local honest and gives payday loans at reasonable rates, force out the commercial loan sharks, support small business and pay interest not bonuses, a peoples bank.
Show what is possible with the will of the people and that sovereignty rests with us even if we are not “given” it take it anyway.
The old and scared help them volunteer in the food banks and wear your badges with pride, deliver food too the poor visit you older Rellies and help, create a better nation now.
We have to reclaim the organs of state even.. no especially because they don’t belong to us.
This fight has got harder but it will if we stp up to the plate grow stronger as a people and a nation.
@Lesley-Anne
Agree with everything you say. The Yes movement is pretty much already in place and although I’m a great admirer of Alex Salmond I also recognise that he divided people greatly, I don’t believe that will be the case with Nicola.
We can do this poeple
Scotland proportional representation, intended never to deliver power verses England’s first past the post which delivers power must surely be addressed. I am not that political but perhaps if the Cabinet comprised of proportional electrol results would deliver the transparency much abscent.
A Cabinet where department Heads, (Minsters) were called before rather than sat in would be more representative. Don’t get me wrong I can’t stress enough how much I want independence but in the meantime it could keep Wasteminster honest.
I do not believe that Mr Brown the vainglorious, informal Governor General of Scotland, did what he did except to perpetuate his legacy as saviour of the Union. He may well have shafted the SLabs in consequence. Whatever -only time will prove the extent to which we have been lied. We had independence for 15 hours and gave it back – mostly because of Project Fear. Fear campaigns work and we must not blame the victims. But I have no problem with the Labour Party, for whom Mr Joyce is an unusual cheer leader, commiting electoral suicide.
On a positive note it is worth reading Iain MacWhirter in the Sunday Herald about what we have won – consolidating that has to be our next battle.
Fair dos to Mr Joyce for posting here – at least it opens a dialogue
@John McLeod says: 21 September, 2014 at 8:44 am:
John, You ask Mr Joyce, MP the question, “Can you conceive of any way that the system could work with two types of MP?”, Then you state, “Surely it would lead to a massive crisis, sooner or later.”
Yet you fail to notice that we already have a,“Massive Crisis” and for exactly that very reason.
Westminsted has taken the former bipartite, “Parliament of the United Kingdom”, (that even by its title declares it is a union of Kingdoms), that has only two signatory kingdoms on the treaty document and, for Westminster’s own interests, turned that parliament into a four country parliament but instead of a four devolved country parliament set-up with Westminster becoming a federal administration it retained Westminster in a dual roll as a United Kingdom Parliament and the Parliament of only the country of England.
That makes the 533 United Kingdom members from English constituencies also to now be Parliament of the Country of England members. They thus wear two hats while at Westminster and they look upon the Scottish, Welsh and N . Ireland Members of the United Kingdom Parliament as interlopers in their de facto parliament of the Country of England. To the extent they have long been grumbling about banning the interlopers from daring to vote on what they designate as, “English Only”, matters. But, as we say in Scotland, “Hing oan a wee, Jimmy”.
As there is no actual Parliament of the Country of England it means that only England is financed by the UK Treasury as, “The United Kingdom”, for those things the devolved parliaments must finance from their, “Westminster”, decided, Block Grants then every English domestic matter is a matter for the real United Kingdom Parliamentary members.
The point being that we already have two classes of MPs at Westminster. English Members who wear two hats and all others who wear one. In effect Westminster has become the de facto Parliament of the Country of England which has created for itself three subservient devolved Country Parliaments with Westminster the Master Race parliament devolving England’s powers to the other countries and about to take away the votes of the subservient country members to interfere in how the master race conducts its very own Master Parliament.
I’ve been warning of this since devolution began but been like a voice crying in the wilderness. The present problem is Westminster also being the Parliament of the Country of England and, by now voting to remain in, “The Fake United Kingdom”, the majority of No voting Scots have just walked blindly into the perfidious Albion’s Passant Lion cunning trap.
For Scotland’s sake please open your eyes and minds? We are about to see our country and kingdom of Scotland finally beaten by England.
I am trying to join the SNP from Friday, can’t get on. I might have to try phoning or writing a letter. I am happy of the difficulty knowing why I’m having difficulty.
Some good posts, particularly from Robert Louis, sadly Alex is standing down, the Lords will surely be out of the question? and I trust he would refuse any gongs!
A new leader, who-ever she is? means a fresh start, how about a fresh start with the name, how much would it cost to re-tweak it to “Scotland First.” A re-branding exercise could draw even more support from folk, and there were many thousand of Yessers who are not party members or supporters, who are a wee bit uncomfortable with the nationalist bit.
Meantime, from a Glasgow point of view, we need to rid the city of Labour’s dead wood. The poor & the youngsters are bearing the brunt of the betrayal. Sterrheid & Co are toast, if there’s any justice in this world.
“Courage brothers do not stumble”, as the Moderator never said today!
@Wingman 2020 and
@ewen.
Many thanks for your responses
My reason for choosing FORWARD was because it’s endlessly progressive.
I caught myself thinking, in twenty years time, living in an independent Scotland, with the struggle a fading memory, at peace with our neighbours and trading with the world as an equal, what one word would still describe the movement, the country and the people.
Sorry, sounds mushy – or as my mother would say:
“It gets ye right in the wet hankie, so it does”.
Still can’t get on to the SNP site for membership.
Mr Salmond said in his speech and press QAs on Friday morning that the “Independence base-camp” had advanced within touching distance of the summit.
James 123 – I don’t know if Mr Salmond really “divided people greatly” so much as fearful voters grabbed this as a poor excuse what else could they use?
Two things need to happen in Scotland to achieve independence. Firstly breaking the back of unionism and secondly purging Westminster from Scotland. The battle now needs to be covert, under the radar, no expensive shouty campaigning involved. This is a movement of people, we know the size of the pro-independence army we have and we know the stats of the NO vote, also we know that the power of a vote can bring about real results
In this new campaign there will be casualties and institutions targetted, non-violent of course, we are on the side of the angels. Following a strict strategic plan Scottish independence could be achieved in three years or five at the most. People have already put forward ideas and they need to be put into a coherent strategy.
Breaking Unionism
• all independence supporters to stop buying The Daily Record and other associated pro-union daily newspapers, even if you only buy it for the football pages or the crossword. If you do need to read an article then do it online as it is less profit making for the papers than an outright sale. This will lead to job losses but so what, the papers have made their beds.
• all independence supporters to stop paying the BBC licence fee. If you have a favourite BBC programme then record it and watch it later. The £145 per annum you save can be put to better uses. this won’t get rid of the BBC but it would diminish their resources in Scotland.
Purging Westminster from Scotland
• YES Scotland becomes an umbrella group ‘YES Alliance’ encompassing all pro-independence parties, groups and individuals that already exist and welcoming more. YES Alliance can then hold meetings across the country bringing people together in debate and conversation in the spirit of what YES Scotland has achieved over the past three years.
• Mass tactical voting. Using the the SNP as a fulcrum for change with pro-independence parties and individuals voting SNP in the GE2015 to create the third biggest party in Westminster by returning 40+ SNP MPs. Continuing mass tactical voting by returning an SNP majority (with two Greens) to Holyrood in SE2016. And to complete the hattrick, the last mass tactical vote to control local authorities in SLE2017. This will mean that pro-independence forces will control all of Scotland from Westminster and Holyrood to local authorites all by democratic means.
• This will then allow the Scottish government to declare UDI (Unilateral Declaration of Independence), or the option of full fiscal autonomy with terms set by Scotland, FFA could be achieved by a snap referendum to the people which will be guaranteed (UDI is not certain), and full independnce will be achieved in only a few years after that.
The bitter pill to swallow is Green, Labour, SSP etc supporters to temporarily suspend their party affiliations and use the SNP exclusively as the driving force to achieve independence in a relatively short time. It continues a coming together for a common cause but this time it is winning three big elections in three years. There will never be a turnout like the referendum again, Scottish elections will probably revert back to 40-65% turnouts, however the trick is making sure the majority of a 65% turnout is comprised of the 1.6million army that we know we already have.
kendomacaroonbar says:
Please look and share – Thank you
link to indiegogo.com
Is Derek Bateman involved with this project? I see on his blog he has a similar objective in mind going forward.
@Juan P
SNP site has taken down the info re: new members joining but see twitter link.
Over 9000 at midday today Sunday.
link to twitter.com
I, and others in the No camp with me, believe Scots are best within the union. I am glad that Scots voted No. But if we were lied to and the government of the day reneges on ‘The Vow’, the vote was a fraud and the UK is corrupted beyond repair.
WHAT??? The vote was a fraud and the UK IS CORRUPT beyond repair. When you have members of the Bilderberg group and the bloody capitalist elite sticking their oar in and making threats, no matter how disguised as concern, of course it’s corrupt. Anyone who thinks the Westminster elite are governing in any way for the people must have their heads inside a polythene bag. We are the oil for the capitalist machine. Our sweat, blood and taxes grease the wheels of international greed and corruption and the accumulation of obscene wealth. The trouble is that most people are too busy working to keep a roof over their heads to raise their eyes above the trench walls to see what is being done to them.
SNP is not a problem, so far as the name goes: it is an asset. Everyone knows what it stands for, despite the smearing and discomfort with the term “national”. We in Scotland are beyond that and those who say otherwise are never going to vote for independence anyway for they are die hard labour supporters, for the most part
changing a name never changes anything unless it follows a change in mindset: it cannot create such a change.
The SNP (and I am not a member) has successfully delivered the referendum; has secured a majority at Holyrood; remains a popular party of government even after two terms. The MSM pretends that is not the case but the facts give them the lie.
Do not get distracted by issues of name: the yes campaign was not harmed by association with the SNP: they were and are an asset
Set your own agenda: it is not about “branding” in that sense. Nor is it about individual personalities, though that is what the media prefer since it is where they have most power
Does anyone know if the lies by better together, labour, tory alliance was mentioned in the Kirk today.
Probably a stupid question really as the kirk kind of likes the status quo.
link to theguardian.com
Also in ten years Scots oil will have run out so not only will England no longer be able to argue how selfish YES is, it’ll be one massive reason for England to let a scrounger region go.
Sir Ian Wood said he was neutral so he must be honest. A few months ago he was advising youngsters to pile into the oil and gas sector and a great job for life but maybe Sir Ian really just meant just for the rest of his life.
As we say in Aberdeen, there’s no pockets in your shroud Sir Ian and your another liar that Scottish history will mark down forever in that british parcel of rogues.
“But if we were lied to and the government of the day reneges on ‘The Vow’, the vote was a fraud and the UK is corrupted beyond repair.”…….AND? ….Oh dear never mind, is that it Eric?
Hopefully Labour will be held to account and if they don’t deliver, well, Hell mend them, they deserve everything that is coming their way…
I really hope Mr Joyce will do everyone on here the courtesy of reading the responses, if nothing else, than to get a dose of reality. The system IS corrupt, and anyone who doubts that needs to educate themselves, or perhaps take on board the resulting circus we have to stomach now, arising from the Vow. We listened to it, and filed it under bull, because we are aware. This is bad news for you Mr Joyce. These actions were foretold by those politically aware, so you need to ask yourself, why didn’t you know this? This will play out exactly as foretold, and we are expected to bend over and smile for the privilege.
@ heedtracker
But..but…rUK does not oppose Scottish independence because of the oil revenue. How can you be so cynical?
It will make no difference when the oil runs out, as Mr Straw’s contribution shows. They want to keep us because they luuurve us. Much like the central character in “the Collector” loved his victims,really
Nana@ 1.56
What would Jenny Geddes have done?
Lets set our priorites:
Ensure we create/keep our own media, and not contribute to the westminster controlled outlets.
Keep our YES campaign parties together in some type of coalition to maximise our voting power.
Concentrate all our voting power as one voice on the general election next May, and remove the current unionist parties from Scotland.
(on a personel note, to see Anas Sawar, Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling etc, loose their seats, would make my year)
Then we can look at our own general election 2016, but lets concentrate on the first three points to start with.
Any other ideas welcome.
I have a question, is it possible for our government to decriminalise none payment of the lience fee ???
If so lets do it, we have the votes.
Wonder how many of the 900,000 new voters opted for a postal vote?
Piss off, Joyce. Even when there was no offer of more powers on the table, you were still devoted to your beloved Union. Your lot spent two years saying our plans weren’t certain enough, and then a couple of days before the referendum you come out with an offer of more powers, the contents of which are unknown even to the proposers! And let us be clear, nothing was mentioned to the Scottish people about further devolution being dependent on English devolution until after the polling stations were closed. Why is it Scotland has to produce a covenant and hold two referenda to achieve any level of self-government, yet it is handed to England on a plate without any obvious grassroots desire? In your heart of hearts, I’m sure you knew that the yes voters were the keepers of true radical change, but then as a product of British institutions like the British Army and the House of Commons, it was always unlikely you would be able to countenance the thought. Go back to your own side and let us lick our wounds in peace.
Alex Salmond I also recognise that he divided people greatly
There’s a fallacy in that statement and some degree of defeatism-
Those who despised the SNP, blindly, saw Salmond as the devil incarnate; Labour voters were taught to hate him by their representatives.
Salmond is an amazing politician, clever, knowledgeable, able to run rings around anybody, so much better than any English politician and a good many Scots too.
In time, women who thought him ‘cocky’ and SNP realised he was fighting for the empowerment of all persuasions in Scotland.
Grouse Beater – my feelings exactly!
I am glad that Scots voted No
Not all of them!
You go on to say the UK is corrupt – did you not realise that when you voted?
Well, Mr Joyce. It appears you may be beginning to come to the same conclusion that many of us have already arrived at – the union is broken.
It has had its time, served its purpose and it is time for all parties to move on. It may have been more balanced given democracy at the time 300 years ago but it is far from being fit for purpose as benefits a modern democracy.
I always despaired at the inevitable voice in the crowd during debates these last few months who wailed, “but if it’s broken we need to fix it!”
No. No, we don’t. You don’t fix an abusive relationship by agreeing terms to be abused on a less frequent basis, you fix it by ending the relationship. For having the temerity of speaking up for ourselves but ultimately agreeing that maybe our partner can change, the people of Scotland are in for a massive shock.
What Scottish MP’S will that be? Eric you won’t have any your shower of ("Tractor" - Ed)s will be wiped out.
Eric Joyce, I don’t think we should take eric as some sort of fool here. remenber Eric got the top of the troughers list two years in a trot ( pardon the pun).£230,000 approx in expenses per year for two years. He certainly knows how to budget, possibly gave the second year a last blast to get to the same figure as the previous year. What a constituancy he supposedly represents. Labour shafted the best rep they had with Dennis Canavan. Dennis then goes Indy and gets 90% of the votes, fantastic. We then get Eric (square go) Joyce followed with Unite trying to massage A dodgy candidate in. Now the new selected pet has alledged affiliations to the OO, she should go down a treat with the flute players from the Braes in Fawkirk. Don’t know why I haven’t told them to shove it by now but this is the change. Had enough with ("Tractor" - Ed)s liars and bigotry.
@Dcanmore
Yes, all the way!
There are certain things I never want to hear again like “polling and sharing”.
But, as I see Eric Joyce did not do, can we please, please keep referring to the state as rUK?
I felt on the day we were winning. I was right in respect that on the day those who voted did vote Yes. However 70% of the postal votes were no. 3/4 of those votes were already in by the time of the wastemonster panic weekend. Even if every postal vote after then was a Yes, we would have needed well over 55% yes on the day to carry the motion.
So the notion that this political guff we heard in the two weeks about devo anything was why people voted no is only a fig leaf to cover the embarrassment of people who sold out the hopes of their children for presumably personal gain.
Analysis of voting patterns is beginning to emerge. There are curiosities showing already. People voted no in SNP heartlands. Conservative voters overwhelmingly voted no. Im not sure that poster campaigns highlighting that Tories alone would be a thing of the past were really that positive. 2/3 of Labour voters went to no. Every effort was put in to woo them yet they put their party first. We must look carefully at what exactly happened and why if this campaign is to continue. I and 70% apparently, of Yes voters did so primarily because they believed in the fundamental right of our people to fuck our own lives up on our own. Scots should decide for Scots. That has to transcend political sides. We should tolerate all views and fight for that single principle. That notion, like the old all men are equal under god thing, is the vote winning killer argument.
I have now got one single aim in my life. I want my country to be free. I am no longer going to accept that it is for others to do all the hard work. I must actively engage in the movement which I really hope will continue here to achieve that aim. If I have to sell my soul to the Earl Of Hell himself to achieve that, then so be it. It is an aim above politics.
I joined the SNP yesterday. I didn’t do it for a few days of outrage.
We were rookies in this game. Labour, once it saw what it was in danger of losing, went into survival mode. We need to harden up. They are an institutionalised maffia in our society. But they cosied up to the O O which is not some happy wee anachronism, but in fact a nasty wee extension of the dark side of the old empire. Then we have the Ministry of Truth. Their charter is worth jack shit when the establishment which controls them sees the prospect of preserving its grip challenged. Its a lazy champagne socialist gravy train which pumps out pap to the people and pretends it is so neutral. Fortunately I can do something about that. I’ll starve the beast and never trust a word it tells me again.
We need to calm down. Reflect. And beat them sooner than later.
What MP’s will that be Eric? Your shower of ("Tractor" - Ed)s will be wiped out as soon as it’s possible.
I don’t think Labour will be wiped out easily, not at all.
What about the oil finds in the West coast and Inverclyde finds now that is in the public domain, maybe Tridents days are numbered in time.
hand clapping, the scots mps have already been reduced to 52 for 2015
@shuggy
What about YES AGAIN
what about
HOLD
I know no 5 people that have joined SNP. Probably best bet medium term and at least you know what their overall aim is and it is also the best way to get the establishment British Labour out of Scotland
Q. What is the definition of stupidity?
A. Dermit Murnaghan 😛
link to facebook.com
I have an SNP MP, so don’t need to bother, but could people with Labour MPs write to them with three questions?
1. What happened to the 19 September Vow?
2. What have they done to earn their wages and expenses since their election?
3. How have they improved their constituents’ lives?
Some of the MPs like Flipper, Krash, Curran, Alexander and Sincerity Jim are fairly well known, but there’s a fair chance that people have never heard of the political giants who represent them, so here’s a list:
Willie Bain, Glasgow NE; Gordon Banks, Ochil & S Perthshire; Anne Begg, Aberdeen S; Russell Brown, D&G; Iain MacKenzie, Inverclyde; Katy Clarke, N Ayrshire; Tom Clarke, Coatbridge etc; Michael Connarty, Linlithgow; Ian Davidson, Glasgow SW; Thomas Docherty, Dunfermline; Brian Donohoe, Cent Ayrshire; Frank Doran, Aberdeen N; Gemma Doyle, W Dunbarton; Sheila Gilmore, Edinburgh E; Tom Greatrex, Rutherglen; David Hamilton, Midlothian; Tom Harris, Glasgow S; James Hood, Lanark; Cathy Jamieson, Kilmarnock; Mark Lazarowicz, Edinburgh N; Michael McCann, EK; Gregg McClymont, Cumbernauld; Jim McGovern, Dundee W; Anne McGuire, Stirling; Ann McKechin, Glasgow N; Graeme Morrice, Livingston; Ian Murray, Edinburgh S; Pamela Nash, Airdrie; Fiona O’Donnell, East Lothian; Sandra Osborne, Ayr; John Robertson, Glasgow NW; Frank Roy, Motherwell; Lindsay Roy, Glenrothes; Anas Sarwar,Glasgow C; James Sheridan, Paisley;
I hadn’t heard of most of them till they voted for a cap on benefits spending in April.
They probably won’t reply, but it might make them uneasy to know people are watching.
Thanks
Eric
they have already started backsliding
if they fail to live up to their promises
will you join us here asking for another referendum in 2016?
Alex Salmond may have divided some but any division was well stirred by the MSM all through the campaign, creating the biggest divide of all. I have no doubt it will continue with the hope of eradicating or minimising at least the support for independence.
What they don’t seem to grasp is the fact that there is a huge portion of the country that has became politically engaged with all kinds of views on the way forward, but all with a vision of a transformed Scotland.
One free of widespread corruption and manipulation of the press on a daily basis.
Unelected officials and governments out of touch and out of time.
You know the score!
I’m happy to see we are all trying to move forward, such a quick recovery for many and shows the strength of hope over fear. Keep it up everyone!
Let’s shake it to the core!
In next Scottish parliament election need to vote SNP SPP and greens.
UK election be more tricky but will be able to get some of the BLP out.
Think the SNP need to be very clear on cuts or changes they will make in their manifesto. Public sector finances are teetering on the brink and I think clarity and honesty will go a long way with electorate after year of lies
Eric Joyce misses the crucial point that has bedevilled the SNP’s self-imposed convention of not voting on England-only legislation. So long as Scotland remains in the union and Westminster controls our budget there are many areas of superficially England-only legislation which can have profound implications for Scotland’s finances.
There surely comes a point at which ever more desperately contrived constitutional tinkering with sole purpose of preserving the old order and the old ways regardless of the consequences for democracy becomes so complex and problematic that even people like Eric Joyce have to recognise that the union is broken beyond repair.
@Grouse Beater
First of all please don’t accuse me of defeatism, I have barely left this site in the last few days trying to encourage people to fight on.
I didn’t say that AS was divisive for any valid reason, its a narrative that has been developed and encouraged for over two decades by his opponents and the media. The reason the media tried to personalise the Yes campaign to him was precisely because of that, they knew many people wouldn’t vote for independence simply because the didn’t like AS.
They cannot do this with NS it simply wouldn’t work.
Anyone who has an account with RBS. Lloyds etc and wants to hit back at them might want to consider the only TRUE independent SCOTTISH bank, the Airdie Savings Bank. 😉
link to airdriesavingsbank.com
Just to clarify on an earlier post i said get behind NC,it should have read of course NS Nicola Sturgeon
Remember, the SNP are the reason, and the only reason we got this far KEEP THE FAITH do not drift into Knitting Groups and Rafia Weavers use political power,that’s what they fear the most,not warm and fuzzy sentiment
@Lesley-Anne
Aye they judge others by their own low standards, they don’t recognise, or understand a decent person’s values.
Well said Mr Salmond.
Dermit Murnaghan you Plonker! .
@call me dave
Thanks for the info.
I’ll leave it for now and join later tonight when the servers can cope.
Yeah I think we need to concentrate memebership and votes to the SNP, unless you really can’t support them for whatever reason, otherwise we’re going to end up with a quagmire of indy supporting bodies when ideally we just need one, it’s not memberships that are the issue anyway it’s the bloody media…
@ Fiona, you’re far to cynical of my cynical cynicismness, cynically. Im not saying Sir Ian Wood is just one super rich old fraud, forever known as a rogue in Scotland’s parcels of UKOK rogues, he is
link to telegraph.co.uk
but only in Feb Sir Ian sez get a job in oil teenies
link to pressandjournal.co.uk
and then a few months later
link to forargyll.com
“Worse than the deficit in anticipated revenues, Sir Ian’s analysis is that there is only 15 years of significant output left, before the decline makes a serious negative impression on the Scottish economy”
So the curse of Scots oil will be over very soon and don’t get a job in that dying industry little children.
Uncle Ian is a very creepy old liar, so dont speak to strange unionists either.
What makes everyone think that the only solution is an “English” parliament with Scots not voting on English issues? With the power of the UK media behind it and the submissive 55% we are only a step away from hearing a proposal being made to integrate Scotland more fully into the UK and to do away with our separate legal system.
Steps have already been made in that direction and it isn’t unrealistic to think that the idea won’t be mooted within a federal system.
John Melrose: Get up, Yes people! Why so
despondent? You have learned that your enemy is the Westminster Establishment, its press and a BBC which, in spite of a joint two-year assault on Scottish aspiration, failed to brainwash nearly 50% of the independence vote. Let’ s remember Bruce, who learned persistence from a spider and realised his dream of independence after many setbacks. We have had but one hitch and should simply get organised through social media, refuse to get back into apathy’s box, turn despair into even more passionate involvement, so that next time, or the next, or the next again, or…………….we can sweep the boards. We must – for the prizes of independent nationhood, democracy and vast oil wealth are infinitely preferable (except to the hopelessly brainwashed) to apathy and passive acceptance of a morally bankrupt Westminster Establishment propped up by a bent BBC and a prostitute press. First step? Let’s get Alex the Bruce back as our Spiderman for Move 2.
Like
Salmond never divided the nation, the nation is divided, the poor, the sick the young with no stake in this sociely against those with their pensions, bank accounts & funeral plans. Their brains addled by decades of reading the Daily Tripe. Half of the NO voters, sadly, will no longer be with us in ten years, this campaign brought the iniquities of this divided nation into public focus.
Anent a name change to “Scotland First”, I am a party member, and joined despite the name but am still uncomfortable describing myself as a nationalist as such, I’m nothing of the kind.
The logo has changed over the years, SNP is a bit auld-farrand, time for a wee re-think. I know it worked for New Labour but we don’t have to throw out the baby along with the bathwater. Maybe Fiona would even join up?
[…] the No vote was built on a lie as is pointed out here at Wings of Scotland from Eric Joyce MP who feels distraught about the lies spun, and being spun by David Cameron, Ed […]
Hi folks
Forgive me for going off topic, but I posted the message below on the thread about cancelling your TV Licence (enough is enough) and I haven’t had any response; presumably people have now moved on from that. So I’m posting it again here, in hopes of a reply. As for Eric Joyce – get your head out of the sand, mate and start getting your information from reliable sources. No one here is fooled by your arguments.
@Schrodingers Cat
Thanks for the text of the letter to TV Licensing and the address. The Acts to which you referred in the letter – do they apply to both England and Scotland?
By the way, does anyone have a link to the full video of the First Minister’s resignation speech? I don’t want to watch it on i-player because I don’t trust the BBC not to have edited it.
Cheers, folks; keep fighting, we’ll get there.
I’m not in a position to know whether his figures are correct – you experienced commenters would be able to tell – but I like this graphic from Ryan Alexander Dewar showing the regional counts as proportional rather than FPPT.
Would appreciate any feedback as to the likely validity of this being the case, before I share it further
Thanks
link to facebook.com
@Peter A Bell
There surely comes a point at which ever more desperately contrived constitutional tinkering with sole purpose of preserving the old order and the old ways regardless of the consequences for democracy becomes so complex and problematic that even people like Eric Joyce have to recognise that the union is broken beyond repair.
No Peter… Westminster MPs will not allow themselves to take a step back in order to take a step forward, such is the nature of our FPTP two party in/out unitary system at Westminster.
They will hang onto until the death rattle is louder than the noise of social unrest.
Eric couldn’t even bring himself to vote YES and write an honest article reflecting the duplicity, corruption, manipulation and self interest that is Westminster politics.
He knows as well as the rest of us that the letter of these promises will never be kept… forget about the spirit.
I don’t know if anyone here listened to Ally Bally ‘Scotland’s Talk In’ but the FM was on being very open and frank about the media. It hasn’t come up on the archive list yet but when it does listen as this fight is far from lost yet.
#45 reminds me of “The Gun That Won the West” now can it win for ‘North Britain’?
Excuse ME CMD, but us plonkers have something called standards you know. For the record can I just say, as Secretary General of Plonkers Annonymous, that under NO circumstances does this fellow Murnaghan come up to scratch in terms of meeting our MINIMUM standards of membership! 😛
Takes you back eh. The glory days of hard core BBC projectfear propagnada
link to bbc.co.uk
So now we have the broad shoulders of the UK and you want a career in demolition. Good old lying bastard Douglas Alexander still to drop the reserve total completely as YES grew and “15 to 24 billion barrels of oil or the gas equivalent still remaining to be developed, ‘Volatile commodity’ will soon be gone and ‘Sleep-walking’ is over now too and all backed up by this Graun fraud.
link to theguardian.com
No wonder they were all laughing so hard at their after poll party.
I think not matter who gains power on 2015,after the UK GE the whole topic will be kicked into the long grass, do you honestly think Westminster wants to devolve more powers to any of the Home Nations,including England,I think not.
Sent this to the Daily R reporters site last night, had it with these guys. …….Please pass on to your editor (don’t suppose he will bother however please do, maybe you can run a story on it). For as long as I can remember my parents had a Daily record and Sunday Mail in the house. I myself have been buying them for 40 years. This was even done daily when I visited England, Spain, Italy and wherever I was, on business or holiday. I always tried to find one to buy. Now even after you wrote the tripe about false accusations regarding Celtic players as thieves and thugs and cost one of your top men their job, I still purchased it.
You hid during the Rangers first situation rather than tell the truth for fear of upsetting David Murray, still I bought it.
However, your paper leading up to the Referendem has been shocking. You have wriiten so many untruths and been biased in your reports I find it incredible that you can call yourself a newspaper. You were in cahoots with the three unionist Leaders in changing peoples minds with their printed vow and hoodwinked people into thinking it was a devo max situation. Now Milliband has renaged and the rest will probably be diluted to appease the English masses. Scotlands Champion . I think not. You played your part in losing our Country to Westminster , big business and your own Management group.
You did not Report accurately the stories about George Square with EDL, Unionist, Rangers Fans and every other fascist they could find to join them. Your report says it was opposing sides even though you knew it was orchestrated by Loyalist thugs. Even now The same Thugs are reported in Facebook etc they are ready to attack people again tonight in the same place. I wonder if the children and women of the yes side will be blamed for attacking the skinheads tonight.
You will have gathered by now, then again maybe you will have difficulty understsnding facts again – but Thursday was the last Daily Record I will ever buy. My friends and family will be the same. Good luck, good riddence and lets hope your demise is as quick as the vow you helped dupe a people out of their Country with. I will leave the Dailys, read them online (not yours of course) and get a suscription for the Sunday Herald. We may have lost through you cheating but you are the true losers as you have been found out by the population. Therfore alienating half the country and probably half of your previous buyers. YES YES YES
Alex is quoting this on two national news programmes and no-one is asking him what he means? Lol! I’m looking forward to his return to the Commons 🙂
“So tremble, false Whigs, in the midst o’ your glee,
For ye’ve naw seen the last o’ my bonnets and me!”
As we all know, according to the most intelligent man in the universe, if we had voted YES on Thursday then Scotland was going to be invaded by aliens. We friends, I can still call you friends can’t I 😉 , I think I have a wee update. 😛
link to facebook.com
The panic and chaos is coming entirely from the three out of touch westminster parties so why anyone would be defeatist or divisive right now totally escapes me.
I’ll say it again, try putting on a Yes wristband or badge, go out and see what happens. The 45% are not only still there and extremely keen to speak to you but they are justly angry and determined to do this again as soon as possible.
And so we shall. Soon enough my friends, soon enough. 🙂
Wife and I both joined SNP last night. This fight goes on.
Scotspine says:
Eric Joyce may be correct in his assessment of the situation, but I think that the Westminster parties are hoping the issue will wither with time and as issues such as the European question arise.
____
The issue will not wither with time, not as long as the SNP are in Government and 1.6M yes voters and probably a lot of no voters will not forget or let it wither and die without a fight.
BBC in Scotland 21 August 2013
“With 15 to 24 billion barrels of oil or the gas equivalent still remaining to be developed, the UKCS possesses great potential for contributing to economic growth for decades to come”.
BBC in Scotland 20 August 2014
Sir Ian claimed there are about 15bn to 16.5bn barrels of recoverable oil left, and that the figure from the White Paper is 45% to 60% too high
“What’s more, the rundown impact will begin to be felt by 2030, which is only 15 years from now.”
Sir Ian added: “I have no allegiance to any party or campaign. I am proud to be both Scottish and British.”
link to pressandjournal.co.uk
“He added that he was “struck” by Sir Ian Wood’s recent warning that North Sea oil was running out”
Wonder when the sheer scale of their giant fraud will stop being awesome.
As a memeber of the SNP can I welcome everyone on here who has taken the plunge, some I know after some great inner wrangling, to the SNP. 😉
Here is a link folks to the full 12 minute stint on Murnaghan with Alex Salmond.
link to facebook.com
Felt the need to just post the first thing I found:-
link to dailyrecord.co.uk
£13 for “gourmet bacon baps” – expensive tastes indeed Mr Joyce, and think you will find not to our taste. So many like you forget who it is you work for, and who’s money you are spending, and we have access to the internet, so get with it. I won’t be pulling any punches from now on, when it comes to reminding people just what their elected members are up to, whilst the rest of us are comparing prices, and saving coupons for food.
@Kendo macaroon @kestral @Lesley Anne
Back again to funding and pulling everyone together… Why not a ‘Trust’ at the top…. It can have a mix of people on the committee.
It would have only one objective, to focus the monies, in order to focus the efforts.
So instead of eight or ten different groups setting up video, radio stations, newspapers, web pages etc… and diluting the effort and the efficient use of cash
We’d have a ‘Scotland Trust’ that advanced monies to the top proposals or presentations.
Included in its remit would be to break up after independence was achieved.
I don’t know about anyone else but I see a variety of donations as much less efficient
Wings
Yes Scotland
Business for Scotland
Common Weal
Bella
Date Line News
and so the list goes on…
Not that any of them are not worth it… but how can we have an efficient fighting force or funding, with bits and pieces being requested ad hoc and often the same people responding with what they can afford to more than one…
in other words, inefficient and complete chaos compared to a much larger group of people prepared to pool their TV licence money and groups could apply for funding..
If we want to do this, we have to find the lowest common denominator – it has to be non partisan and unaffiliated. (And above any accusations of being affiliated)
It would be a residents of Scotland’s trust for a better Scotland. Weirdly, it would almost have to ‘soar above the politics’ 🙂
£13 for “gourmet bacon baps” in a world of soup kitchens, food banks, queens giving grandson’s £10 million helicopters for their birthday, Sir Ian Wood stating “I have no allegiance to any party or campaign. I am proud to be both Scottish and British.” and it on goes in teamGB…
Hi rev more evidence that the Unionists deliberately lied. As we all know Better Together’s facebook page contains a leaflet which states:
“The day after a NO vote the timetable for further powers will be published as a motion before the UK Parliament. All UK Parties will support the motion”.
link to theguardian.com
In today’s Guardian [see link above] it is reported:”Yes campaigners also accused the UK parties of reneging on their pledge to introduce a motion on greater devolution on Friday, promising a draft bill on extra powers by late January 2015. The text of that motion was published by the pro-UK campaign Better Together to the Press Association on late Friday evening, and circulated in full to the media on Saturday morning.
It was not published in Westminster because the House of Commons was not sitting on Friday. Better Together sources said it would appear on the Commons order paper as soon as it resumes after the party conference season.”
It is impossible for the Unionists to not have known that Westminster was in recess for the conference season. This means therefore that the NO Campaign wilfully and deliberately mislead voters by stating a motion would be published on September the 19th.
Imagine for a second that a group wanted a grant to do an academic study into Oil or a poll or a economic analysis or report… they could apply to the trust.
A trust, funded by the people (TV lic), belonging to the people, working for the people
Something recuperative about this.. 🙂
Still cant get the SNP website to work properly. Crashes at payment page.
Just spoke to my local councillor (who stood against Malcolm Bruce last time out) who said its struggling due to 10,000+ since Friday and counting
I’m a patient man
Wingman 2020 reflects my own strong views – I am trying to join the SNP, because they have the apparatus for elections in place, but I would also like to see such a “Trust” established, with terms for receiving monies and dispersal of such. Aims and goals set out, would also help the various groups to work towards various things, and spread the word – e.g. on broadcasting or work in elections
@Lesley-Anne
For some reason I have always prided myself on not being a member of any political party. I guess it makes me feel more of an individual, an independent, a believer that you have more perspective looking from the outside than in. But I am putting that to one side and I am joining the SNP.
My goal with many others is too see BLAB humiliated at the next election and hasten our journey to independence probably via the route of Devo Max, real Devo Max.
Better Together
link to i.telegraph.co.uk
Don’t fear folks, the Union is unraveling before your eyes.
There’s a lot of complaining right now, but we need to direct it in a coherent way. Jack Straw has already said he wants to stop another referendum happening. Now is the time we have to take people like Sillars seriously and adopt his “independence mandate” proposal. He outlined it on Twitter today – the SNP stands on an independence platform in 2016 and if it wins a majority then we declare independence. No referendums, no capacity for Westminster to stop it, simple straightforward democracy in action.
The people we need to convince to make this happen aren’t the electorate, but ourselves. The SNP has already surged ahead in the polls for 2016. Sturgeon is well-meaning but she’s too moderate to go down this route. We need someone who subscribes to Sillars’ ideas (if not Sillars himself as he carries baggage) as leader of the party. This is the only way to make it happen – they won’t let us have another referendum and pinning our hopes on that happening in 10-15 years is just allowing the anti-democratic elements in Westminster to regroup and derail the independence movement with drawn out reform processes, legal changes and whatever else.
We have to back the independence mandate proposal and we have to back it now. After the 2016 election it will be too late.
@Dave McEwan Hill
Just to re-iterate
Only independence provides “full fiscal autonomy” so can we stop faffing about apologetically on this .
It is worth pointing out again and again and again if this movement had ever settled for devolution “as a step in the right directio ” or whatever we would have got half of that.
That’s politics.
Dave, I know you and everyone else is hurting badly at the result, but this is really suicidal politics you are advocating. We lost the independence referendum. We have to concentrate on the immediate future. The truth is that the SNP did settle for devolution in the 1990s under Salmond’s wise and pragmatic leadership. They did this because it would increase Scottish political power, self confidence, and identity. It achieved this. The SNP gained more elected representatives in the first Holyrood election than they achieved in decades of Westminster elections. The party has become much more professional and electorally dangerous since devolution. It also has taken us to within just over 5 per cent of winning independence. The progress since the 1990s has been remarkable.
We now have to expose the duplicitous nature of these vows and promises to the people of Scotland, particularly No voters. The SNP have to press the Unionist parties on this. Lashing out in disappointment is only going to make us seem bitter. No voters have to be shown the consequences of giving support to Westminster and the British state. We have to show that the British establishment has no legitimacy to hold power over Scotland. You do this by being constructive and acting in good faith, and the British state will soon show and demonstrate that it cannot be trusted.
link to heraldscotland.com I don’t get God. Massed ranks of liars all singing hymns and praying for BetterTogetherness but isn’t telling lies a sin. Our country is a region governed by a pack of rich war mongering fraudsters and now they sit before God. You can’t make any of this up.
Ah Clarinda, quite possibly chucked something.
If I went to church I would probably be throwing a hissy fit or two myself.
Thankfully I saw through ministerial[both church & political] shite many years ago.
Just a suggestion to the Rev. Why not start a Lies Chart on here.
I don’t mean the lies which won the day for the Naysayers – these are history now, I mean the lies told since. The solemn promises of change made on Friday and since, which have been quickly forgotten.
We can then “celebrate” and highlight10 lies; 25 lies, 50 lies, 100 lies and so on. It is not as if they will not give us plenty of ammunition.
Also, while I know, from personal experience, the Monday to Saturday Herald, did not cover itself in glory during the referendum campaign. I KNOW, from personal experience, one or two of its key staff are Unionists, and not even of the closet variety.
However, The Herald, in stating its preference for Scotland remaining in the Union, did mitigate this by insisting the promises made by Better Together must be honoured, and by saying they would hold the Unionists to account if they failed to do this.
Their Anglo-Welsh Editor is an honorable man, who I am sure will hold his paper to this.
We now, therefore, have one Scottish-published newspaper committed to independence, Sunday Herald Editor Richard Walker has said this morning: “The fight goes on”.
We also have a newspaper, The Herald, which is hugely sceptical of the three Westminster parties’ good faith in the aftermath of the No vote.
This is a huge advance on the position which the Yes camp faced at the start of the long referendum campaign.
We MUST keep-up the pressure on The Herald to scrutinise the Unionists and hold them to account when they deviate from further powers, or go back on promises.
That way, we can eat into those in the 55% who were duped by the forked tongues of the Unionists, and, as we are short-changed by the Unionists, as we know we will be, 45% will become 48%, then 50% then 51% – then we have won.
They have always treated us with disdain, they will continue to do this and this will, in the long run, be their undoing.
Jim: The [false] Union is unravelling before your eyes.
Democracy – Westminster Style grousebeater.wordpress
Looking through the Herald I came upon this beauty
After the results were announce, the crowd melted away and their place was taken by a burly fellow who could have done with a spray of Brut. It was none other than Scottish Secretary Alistair Carmichael
The smell emanating from him proves what we have known for some time that he talks keich
Oh the shame of having the country being told in a national newspaper that you smell (the last 2 sentences are mine not the reporters)
Why can’t the Scottish people have a referendum on keeping Trident in Scotland, this 1707 Act of Union looks like a 1707 Act of Takeover.
I don’t like being made the number one target in the event of a nuclear war!.
link to paulcraigroberts.org
@James123 – same here, never joined a party, preferred to do my own thinking without being fettered or closed off to anything else. I have changed – only in the last 6 months, and I’m in my 50’s!!
Go to Bella Caledonia and read the latest there, which I think reflects the same for a lot of us, and awakening, following by a simmering outrage. I’ve always been a staunch leftie, but now I’m more energised and hopefully more purposeful, and one of the things I want to really push for is some type of psychometric testing for honesty for those seeking election, and 1 strike and you’re out policy. I watched Clegg in the HoC defending the right of politicians to remain if “their sentence was less than 12 months” FFS!!!!
Listening to Classicfm news at 3 0’clock they broadcast that a Survation poll conducted sinces the referendum has shown over 50% of the electorate will vote for the SNP at the next Scottish Elections.Also that over 8,000 people have joined the SNP since the result.
I can find no other mention of this elsewhere which is surprising as prior to the poll the BBC amongst others were ramming polls down our throats right left and centre.Perhaps this one doesn’t suit their agenda.
In the Herald;
“The SNP could be on track to win a third term at Holyrood, party leaders have claimed after a poll showed almost half of Scots are planning on backing the nationalists in the next Scottish Parliament elections.
The poll, which was carried out after last week’s historic referendum, also found the majority of people believe there should not be another such ballot for at least 15 years.
The debate over Scotland’s future sparked a renewed interest in politics north of the border, with the referendum having the highest electoral turnout on record in the UK.”
Well, this is good and bad. Good in that it doesn’t seem to have caused a run on the SNP, Nicola could be a fresh more popular leader, although the 15 years on another referendum while understandable could also be overturned if and when these promises of more devolution get bogged down in UK-English politics.
It’s been a horrible weekend, but we can move on from this.
About 132,000 Scots still chose NOT to register their name on the electoral roll.
And nearly 660,000 who did register, couldn’t be bothered to actually vote.
So we have almost 800,000, 1 in 5 or 18% of all those eligable to vote who couldn’t care less about the referendum.
The actual ratio of YES voters as a proportion of all eligible voters was only 37%.
The actual ratio of NO voters as a proportion of all eligible voters was only 45%.
So while just over a 1/3rd of those able to vote, chose independence, less than 1/2 voted to retain the union.
I know it’s a majority vote that counts so no matter which way it’s calculated, NO won.
But consider why, that even after the most engaged political process in modern times, a significant minority of our fellow citizens still didn’t care enough, one way or the other to vote.
We ought to stop pretending that this was a wholesale engagement of our electorate. While it was significant, there remains much to do to reach out to those 1 in 5 people who perhaps believe that only the impending impact of an asteroid, might cause them to take notice.
O/T, Does anyone know what happens to the Declaration for Yes signatures that had over 1Million signed declared?
Could that be a way forward, or is that documentation null and void now?
2017
EU referendum
if UK votes No
Sunday times is interesting this week because they are clearly scared that it’s not over or it’s neverendum. They have a regular Yes and No diary of foot soldiers and the NO still BT is “one of the worst campaigns I have ever been involved in” He/she also says that Beckham last week and they got boosted mid week by “high profile endorsements from several newspapers”
So you can see pretty clearly that BetterTogether activists are also spectacular liars just like their leaders, either that or they never read a newspaper or watch TV. Ghastly.
When and if the so-called “consultations” arrive we must be ready to go. The windows will be short. Most consultations are exercises in phony democracy having few respondents, but the chance for TPTB to say you had your chance. Even contentious issues like HS2 for example receives about 20,000 consultations per call. If they receive 250,000 the system will breakdown. Perhaps a website (WOS?) could have pro-forma submissions ready to go.
This appeared on SNP Twitter feed about 1 hour ago.
Due to a unprecedented demand for new party memberships; http://SNP.org has crashed. More server power is being added. Downtime 2hrs
trending
#kirk/confessional
Just to add to some of the previous posts.
Totally agree with the individual campaigns merging for one common goal. The SNP, SSP, Greens etc could pool resources rather than battle each other for individual seats. It would save money and the best candidate would have full support rather than splitting costs for the aim of the same outcome.
These next point is harder to put into words without coming across as a cnut 😉
Someone also mentioned that the Yes campaign had too much fixation on the Tories. I agree. I’m not sure what the overall Tory vote is in Scotland (I know they only have one MP) but to alienate all their supporters seems foolhardy. We tried to coax Labour supporters over to Yes, and it worked to some extent so why not try the same with the Tory fanclub. Harder definitely but surely not impossible for some of them. They cant all be paid up members and maybe just need a bit of persuasion. Some voters probably vote Tory for the actual candidate rather than the party.The idea of Independence needs to be made more attractive to all.
As for a name for the whole thing to go forward with, what about Liberty – as per the definition below
lib·er·ty
?lib?rt?/Submit
noun
1.
the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one’s way of life, behavior, or political views.
“compulsory retirement would interfere with individual liberty”
synonyms: independence, freedom, autonomy, sovereignty, self-government, self-rule, self-determination; More
Just my thoughts like……
Cameron’s played a blinder here (if you’re a Tory). Labour won’t want the West Lothian question solved in this way as it weakens them in Westminister. If they vote against it they’ll have to fight a General Election where, in Scotland they’ll be the party who prevented independence AND further devolution. In England meanwhile, they’ll be the party who will preserve an undemocratic anachronism in order to save their own skins. Vote losers in both nations. If they bite the bullet and accept Cameron’s changes they’ll struggle to get a meaningful majority anyway. They’re in big trouble it would seem. Imagine a House of Commons where Labour were the UK government but the Tories are a de facto English government – how on earth would that work? It would make the whole political system look like a farce.
O/T OFCOM might be responsive to complaints about the BBC.
Kaspar says:
Listening to Classicfm news at 3 0’clock they broadcast that a Survation poll conducted sinces the referendum has shown over 50% of the electorate will vote for the SNP at the next Scottish Elections.Also that over 8,000 people have joined the SNP since the result.
I can find no other mention of this elsewhere which is surprising as prior to the poll the BBC amongst others were ramming polls down our throats right left and centre.Perhaps this one doesn’t suit their agenda.
If you some fun Kaspar, try going onto the site below and play around with predicted results for Westminster and Holyrood. 😉
I have just done WM with a 50% SNP 25% Labour 15% Tory and 10%Lib Dem which worked out at 55 SNP M.P.’s 3 Labour M.P.’s and 1 solitary Lib Dem. 😛
For those trying to sign up to the SNP, but not getting through. I just seen this on Facebook.
Due to a unprecedented demand for new party memberships; SNP.org has crashed. More server power is being added. Downtime 2hrs
Terrible its gone down, but for a fantastic reason.
link to facebook.com
ST have great story about Orkney and Shetland demanding devo from Salmond before he leaves and that’s all being led by Alistair Carmichael because he told the islanders to vote No for more devo which is clearly what they did although it’s a bit counter intuitive really.
Carmicheal says if they want to have a “convention or even a referendum we are entitled to do that and Alex Salmond can’t stop us” So there.
If they want devo and a lying LibDem bloater in charge, have at it Orkney and Shetland. It’s certainly going to free up some bed space etc at ARI for starters. Project fear is fun:-)
having connection problems so my posts will reflect this.
well where has george galloway slinked off to?
your plan to keep the tories out forever worked well!
@Futureproof
People in Britain think that because they have a vote they live in a democracy apathetic in other words. Democracy scares the shit out of Westminster which is why independence or devo-max in Scotland is their nightmare.
Lots of common sense spoken by these guys.
Why is it that pre negotiations, denied Scotland, is being delivered with out any difficulty to out neighbour’s. Had pre negotiation been delivered to Scotland the result whatever it would have been would have received a greater validation that does not truely exit at the moment.
Peter A Bell/reply to jack straw
link to scottishindy2014.wordpress.com
Dashwood: BP boss Bob Dudley raises a glass to another 50 years in the North Sea
link to telegraph.co.uk
O.K. folks who wants to be the first to tell one of the 55% that thanks to their believing the LIES of Brown that they are now responsible for this.
link to facebook.com
Oh and don’t forget to congratulate them of helping those poor underpaid over worked bonkers bankers out of the wee financial crisis they are currently in either.
link to telegraph.co.uk
OT:A handy picture.
reconciliation with a bunch of politicians who lied, is not possible.
reconciliation with the duped is however joyful.
“The sun will melt the rocks, before I set foot in the House of Lords” Alex Salmond. We have lost a great front man, but I’m hoping he can do just as much damage and tactics from behind the chair, sometimes that is actually the more powerful place to be.
And Mr. Joyce still sod the invasion of Iraq. He is a war criminal. Why are you continuing to allow his contribution. The man should be in front of the Hague.
Not happy.
Sorry Lesley-Anne,
I repeated your earlier post about the SNP server crashing. My posts are taking a while to go through and had missed your post in the ‘refresh page’ process.
I blame this damn African wi-fi – its not great.
Despite the fact the SNP had a mandate and were elected with a majority to Holyrood, to hold an Independece Referendum, the BBC continues to only allow critics of Alex Salmond. Moaning that he should accept democracy, when Westminster changed their definition of what a NO vote would mean.
T222Deracha
so now the bbc agree that WM, broke purdah!
I’m lifted again!
Went to a routine CA meeting in New Deer with my MSP(Alex Salmond). Hundreds turned up with their YES flags 😀
Meeting effectively became a rousing speech by Alex.
I’m sure it will appear on Facebook.
I’m ready to go again.
Dear Ed, Dave and Nicky boy,
Now that the referendum is over I’m thinking you all are sitting back sipping your champagne and wondering what you can do now to teach those pesky Scots a lesson they will never forget. Well. Before you do anything guys I’d suggest you ponder these wee videos. The monster on Scottish independence has not been killed off as you all had hoped. In fact guys the exact OPPOSITE has happened. Congratulations on achieving the impossible, galvanising the people of Scotland more than ever together to FIGHT you.
link to facebook.com
link to facebook.com
Why give the state broadcaster aka the BBC money.
link to bbctvlicence.com
Mackies ice cream like to trade on the ‘Scotland’ brand, yet didn’t want Scots to vote YES for our country.
Will Mackies now start labelling their ice cream ‘Mackies of Britain’, instead of their current ‘Mackies of Scotand’? Maybe they could try ‘Mackies of Scotlandshire’, or ‘Mackies of Northern England’.
Just like Baxters, they are oh so Scottish apart from when it really matters.
Maybe they are just hypocrites, devoid of reason and filled to the brim with the Scottish cringe.
Well, lady next door, whom I hardly ever see but dropped a WBB through letterbox just in case it did some good, is having a wee garden soiree.
Thought I heard mention of the 45s???
Darted outside and saw 7 ladies (29s to 50s ish) and 2 guys, 20s, asked and confirmed they are all Yes voters, to which I let out a yelp of YES, and they said there’s a 45s rally in Nov. Didn’t ask more as they were getting ready to leave, But, heartening, I find. 🙂
Anyone else heard about this rally? In November? Hope its indoors and with music. 😉
If we all agree that boris is gonna rise thru the Tory ranks and become pm then that’s a good thing for us – he thinks the same way as Cameron but doesn’t have the ability of Cameron to keep a lid on his thoughts – boris will just say what he thinks and everyone will see there disgust towards scotland – we stick together, fight to avoid any negative change to scotland, keep trying to help those in trouble thru cuts and just let boris/UKIP and westminster do the rest for us.
fred blogger says:
T222Deracha
so now the bbc agree that WM, broke purdah!
That would be with their very own assistance but of course BBC are full of too many COWARDS to admit that FACT!
I was wondering how long it would be before we started hearing from this bampot!
link to standard.co.uk
In regards to co-operation between pro-independence parties, the SNP, Greens and SSP. The SNP usually like to contest all seats in the general election. However, with the amount of money spent on the referendum campaign, the SNP must be strapped for cash at the moment (irrespective of new members in the last few days). Ideally, Labour for Independence and RIC would join SSP. However, I do not know if this is possible.
In terms of the pro-independence parties: SLAB MPs in particular have to be targeted next year; Curran, Murphy, Davidson, Harris, Alexander, and the rest. They support austerity and want to be even tougher on welfare than the Tories (see Rachel Reeves). Therefore, they have no desire in trying to prevent more children being plunged into poverty, and more people having to use food banks. We have to try and defeat as many of these SLAB MPs as possible. Then try and break up their local authority power bases.
Folks, why are we still sticking up links to enemy newspaper sites so they get the benefit of any clicks???
Much better if one person visits it, archives it, sticks the archive link up and then thousands of folk visit that instead. No way should any of these bastards be profiting.
Oops, I forgot to add this wee snippet into my last post.
Who’d have thunk it BP celebrating a NO vote!
link to telegraph.co.uk
I am with you on the Baxters etc. I can’t stand Disneyland Scotland. Proud people don’t run away from their own country when asked to free it. Not an ounce of backbone. Incidently I am going to the 45 demo. Its on Facebook. Also campaign for a revote on their. I understand an MSp is going to look into this, as there is substantial evidence of potential wide scale vote rigging.
Sign this petition and let Scotland control its own broadcasting.
link to thepetitionsite.com
Here is a slogan for the next two campaigns:
Not sure about Labour, Don’t Vote!
It will bring in those, (the noers), who even have a smizing of doubt, and annoy the troughers too boot.
@muttley79
If I was Labour for indy I would want to get rid of any mention of the word ‘Labour’ as that is becoming as toxic as Tory in Scotland.
Hello, is anyone out there? Any links to the First Minister’s resignation speech? And we need to join forces in the most effective way possible, which is to ensure that the Labour party in Scotland is destroyed and as many pro-Independence MPs as possible are returned to Westminster in 2015. Join a political party, because they already have the necessary machinery in place to win seats, and help to work within the system to break the system.
800,000 postal votes were sent to England to be scanned before releast back to Scotland, who owns royal mail ?
Noticed Michelle Mone was heading dan saff as well, that’s uplifting then:). I was looking for her, Brian Wilson, Jim Murphy, John Reid etc with their new pals at George Square Loyalist gathering and terror meet on Friday. Unfortunately didn’t see them on pics. Of course good chance of seeing Joanne Lamont there amongst the Rule Brit Brigade. Tossers one and all.
NO Red Tories formerly know as Labour.
From this
link to theguardian.com
bookie from hell
that’s shocking,wow!!
labour party conference
link to twitter.com
Natasha at 4:44 pm
Hello, is anyone out there? Any links to the First Minister’s resignation speech?
Speech is here:
link to youtube.com
Scottish Government YouTube channel:
link to youtube.com
To this
link to theguardian.com
She’s been a good girl and saved the union and she’s clutching a scroll saying devo max too, because she’s been so good. I want to vomit but thats neo fascism for you, bare faced fear mongering with lashings of grotesque maudlin sentiment.
England clearly thinks we have all been given devo max.
Text of speech is here:
link to news.scotland.gov.uk
Cameron’s cynical latest promise – which his party will never deliver ….. but it seems to me none of the Westminster lot, including the mendacious Brown, has any idea what the nature or extent or freedom of the ‘devolved powers’ will be. Scotland is now captive in the hands of an hostile politic of a vicious rightest ideology to which the devolvement of power historically has been and is now viscerally repugnant….as voiced by that creep Straw.
Lesley-Anne
the super state city of london WM hub is born, to reign over the 5 counties of of the former UK.
As soon as they can, family joining SNP……
Big Jock – could you put the link to the FB Demo page please, as been on FB and can’t see any demo info
Kenneth Roy not happy with wingers in Scottish Review. Our intimidation of journalists outside the BBC contributed to the YES failure to win a majority as did Jim Sillars “day of reckoning”.
I struggle to find an analogy and perhaps the ones that come to mind are too painful. The victim blamed for being the victim. I once admired Kenneth Roy.
@EricJoyce
As a near 40 year Independence supporter, I appreciate your views and writing an article in WoS. It doesn’t mean, of cousre, I agree with them.
Labour signed their own death warrant in Scotland, hell mend them. Devo max was off the ballot paper for a reason, now, because they were shitting themselves in case they lost Scotland’s resources they guaranteed to put more powers on the table in this so called cross party pledge. I think they have shot themselves in the nut sack. As I opine, the union is unraveling and I paraphrase what Alex Salmond said, “There is more than one way to skin a cat” and Independence will come one way or another!
Big Jock – could you put the link to the FB Demo page please, as been on and can;t see any demo info
Please look…
link to twitter.com
There is nothing of either the UK state of the Labour Party worth saving, both are built on nothing but lies and corruption.
We need all the pro-independence parties to put up joint candidates so we can purge every single Unionist MP, all of them.
Ed Miliband, on the other hand, by pretending he wants to transfer powers now but refusing to balance the books, would be risking going down in history as the man who broke the union on a lie.
Hmmmm. I suppose that is preferable to being the man who dashed the hopes of a fairer society by supporting the lie in the first place?
Been reading comments with interest I have a lot of catching up to do.
Loving the comments re SLAB being called imperial British Labour Party.
I think of them as NoLabour. NuLabour – but worse 🙂
Could this turn out to be one of THE iconic photographs of the year if not the decade? 😉
Is this the ULTIMATE visual example of HOPE over FEAR?
link to facebook.com
Gordon Brown and the Scottish Labour Party put their support behind a Vow they knew could not be delivered. Much of the article is true, but this was all know before the Referendum. The refendum was indeed held on a lie, and was therefore fraudulent. If the Vow is not kept and all powers delivered in full, according to Gordon Brown’s timetable, the Labour party in Scotland have three options:
1. Resign en masse
2. Throw their full support behind an immediate repeat of the fraudulent referendum and tell the truth for a change
3. Pretend it didn’t all happen and stand for election with dishonour and no integrity
“If the referendum was held tomorrow we would win.”
Don’t be daft dave, no-one has changed their mind. we lost and until we both understand and re-assure those who voted no, there will be no way forward.
UDI will be enacted before another referendum is in place, mark my words!!
Message to all SLABS:
WE DON’T NEED TO OUT RUN WESTMINSTER. WE JUST NEED TO OUT RUN YOU!
I joined the SNP at 5am this morning. Yippee!
Be assured that we are not alone in feeling very angry about the result, which was brought about by a NO campaign of lies, misinformation and deceit.
However, in just 3 days, the energy of the YES campaign has bounced back even more strongly than ever, with the SNP reporting over 8000 new members, the Scottish Green party is reporting over 2000 new members and the SSP over 1200 new members! A very large number of these new recruits have come from the Westminster Labour party. The political landscape is reviving and people are even more fired up ready to make Independence happen.
Many YES groups are reconvening and there are talks going on about what the next steps will be; if Westminster do not deliver on their ‘vow’ then there will be repercussions.
For starters we should use our collective strength to rid Scotland of every single Westminster unionist MP at the May 2015 UK General election. The Tories are almost gone anyway, the LibDems’s are lined up already to go, and the Westminster Labour party are ripe for extinction after their betrayal of Scotland in the referendum campaign.
Thereafter we should campaign at every opportunity at local and Holyrood elections to get rid of every single unionist there too.
Then there is the European referendum where we should campaign to keep Scotland in Europe even if the rest of the UK votes to leave the EU.
We can turn Scotland into a unionist free zone if we apply ourselves properly to the task.
If we do these things Scotland will become ungovernable by Westminster and they will eventually have to give in.
imv the people of these islands will no longer accept neo-liberalism.
“and then you win.”
i see a resurgence of true socialism spreading like wildfire.
we have opened up a gap, a powerful dialogue, shown others what can be peacefully democratically achieved.
that social justice can and will prevail.
So much for devo max or THE VOW. It’s only been three days in the union we democratically voted for, for ever.
link to heraldscotland.com
No supprise that WM broke Purdah, and are trying to back track on who said what to SWAY THE VOTE!!! The 19th has passed and the first part of the Vow broken and so it will continue.
I think they said the details would be out in time for St Andrews day.
If not WE the citizens of Scotland WILL demand a Re-Election.
We cannot let this mockery go unchallenged.
Keep up the pressure.
Gary
Fiona ,
I have long thought, as another poster has pointed out, if the S.M.P. ‘s name was= T.N.P.O.S.,
ie ” The National Party Of Scotland.”, hopefully avoiding the attempts to compare them with a certain German party, and others of that type!.
mutley79 at 3.26
Suicidal politics is to get dragged into interminable and basically dishonest discussions about Devo max, devo plus, fiscal autonomy etc which is exactly what our opponents want us to do.
We have huge range of new and young voices who fought for independence last week and we nearly got there and you want us to step back and play silly buggers with our enemies. I saw young people who had voted for the first time crying on Friday morning as the result came in.
Devo max is devo nowt and nothing offered provides any more powers. Why give this offer the veneer of respectability?
It’s a trap for the naive
I will say it again and again and again. The minute we play games and step back from a complete dedication to complete independence we lose .
It is the conceit of people who don’t know how politics work to imagine that they can cleverly seek compromise with an enemy (on the back foot) and this is the wise and acceptable thing to do.
If we settle for or give any credibility to the crock of shit we are offered we go backwards – and we don’t even end up with the complete crock of shit.
That’s how politics work.
Has the fact that 10,000 people have just joined the SNP (the independence party) escaped your notice?
As a matter of interest the membership of the Labour party is nowhere near the 13,000 it claims. Gerry Hassan believes that once you strip out social club and trade union memberships it is around 6,000 and the complete destruction of it as a functioning organisation on the ground in Scotland is entirely possible
Yo Cameron and the rest of you millionaire flunkies. Read THIS and tremble!
link to facebook.com
@Natasha
And we need to join forces in the most effective way possible, which is to ensure that the Labour party in Scotland is destroyed and as many pro-Independence MPs as possible are returned to Westminster in 2015. Join a political party, because they already have the necessary machinery in place to win seats, and help to work within the system to break the system.
Agreed. This is really important imo. We now have 1.6 million voters who support independence. That is a very large constituency in terms of Scottish politics. There are already 3 functioning pro-independence parties in Scotland; the SNP, the SSP, and the Greens. If we can get as many people as possible to join them then that would help improve their capabilities and resources significantly.
@a2
I wouldn’t say no one has changed their mind; but what you are saying is probably broadly true.
‘No’ voters will consider the old order to be restored now, and many of them have forgotten about the referendum already as they get on with their lives.
We are still bewildered and hurting, because – to us – the case for an independent Scotland has been as clear as day; but we are a minority. That is an inescapable fact.
How to turn a minority into the majority? That is our challenge. Somehow, the case for independence needs to be fed into the consciousness of our fellow citizens. Keep providing the information; keep having the conversations.
Sorry for a wee bit O/T:
It’s great that Glasgow and Dundee are now acknowledged as ‘YES’ Cities, but here in deepest darkest, Orangest Ayrshire we too can hold our head high.
According to one of the counting agents the tiny village of Rankiston voted for Independence by a stonking 2 to 1!
Go Rankiston!
Stuart Muir says:
UDI will be enacted before another referendum is in place, mark my words!!
Not sure if I’d call it UDI Stuart but there are rumours of *ahem* things going on or at least starting to go on in the *cough* background that may very well lead to something like UDI 😉
The SNP should disband in time and all those who supported Independence, unilateral/multilateral disarmament, wherever their political allegiances originally lay, etc, etc, should come together with the ultimate goal of taking Scotland forward to it’s rightful status as an Independent country with the interests of all it’s citizens as it’s main agenda not those of the morally bankrupt denizens of the corrupt banks and big corporations.
Tam Dalyell did not raise the West Lothian question out of mischief. As an arch Unionist it was his contention that it would destroy the Union.
The one and only logical conclusion to it is Scottish independence.
It is a corrosive acid that is/was and will eat away at the union from within.
Any attempts to address it with an “English Grand Committee” is doomed to lead back to conclusion one, ie independence.
Any other attempts no matter what form they may take are merely sticking plaster attempts to cover the acid burns which will continue to eat away at the constitution from within.
Always, the conclusion leads back to the only possible solution, Scottish independence!
Joyce is merely re-iterating the West Lothian question in terms of the unionist parties.
They ALL (each of the unionist parties)face their own internal corrosive “West Lothian Question”.
Whatever ‘solution’ they can find both at Westminster and for their own parties is NOT a solution, because the WLQ does not go away.They merely shift from one barbed hook to another.
I had this conversation with Tam Dalyell 17 years ago. If there EVER was an answer to the WLQ that would save the union, he would have given it 17 years ago.
There IS only one outcome, only one solution, only one logical conclusion. The end of the Union!
Kenneth Roy not happy with wingers
He also thinks Scotland cleaved in two because of Salmond’s ‘hubris,’ which is rich coming from Roy, a forgotten newsreader that publishes a book glorifying the Scottish elite – Who’s Who in Scotland.
I still think we should demand a re-vote due to the vote rigging, the ‘vow’ being a lie and purdah also broken. Also postal votes allegedly sent to be scanned in England.
At least 1.6 million votes (I reckon many more) plus I’ve read countless articles with people saying they voted No then realised they made a big mistake (including postal votes).
Someone must be able to take this higher.. it’s just wrong!
We have been conned big time here.
Ian Gray’s Subway Lament
“Yes badges and wristbands back on guys and gals. :-D”
We had taken down our window YES stickers but today we put up the modified version:
link to wingsoverscotland.com
with wishes for England.
link to theguardian.com
At the very least the BBC, Graun etc are going to have their work cut out trying to keep Labour’s control of Glasgow and Strathclyde.
Is there a map showing all the towns and villages and how they voted?
John Bell
the sales of YES/45 dual logo t shirts will boom, i am very sure.
🙂
Does ANYONE actually believe that Dundee only delivered a 57% Yes vote?
No way.. the 2 fire alarms seen to that.
Come on, you couldn’t make that up. At first they reckoned Dundee was about 71% Yes then after the alarms debacle it dropped to 57%.. and no-one thought it strange?!?!?!?!?
Another joke of the count!
@Dave McEwan Hill
I know you are hurt and angry, but independence is off the agenda for the foreseeable future. We got beat, and everyone is going to have to accept that fact. We have to hold the Unionist parties to account for their promises. Lets be constructive and push for as much change as possible. If they fail to deliver we can tell the No voters that they simply cannot trust the British state to deliver for Scotland. We then give all the examples down the years. We got to this point because many people campaigned for devolution when they wanted independence. You have not really addressed this. Turning into raging fundamentalists again will get us absolutely nowhere.
Nicola Surgeon tweeted an hour ago that 10,000 new members have now joined the SNP in the past 3 days!
Peter Murrel also tweeted to apologise for the SNP membership portal is under severe strain under the pressure and assured that they are doing everything they can to get it back up to speed again.
If we were to get about 40+ SNP MPs elected at the GE next year could we then go for independence again?
“And now, a documentary on the world’s largest, poisonous lizard,’ says the BBC television announcer, but too my surprise we cut to Sumatra not Westminster.
Stevie boy
no, i don’t.
but, the other 31 region’s predictions will also have to be looked @ to see if there are similar correlations.
@dadsarmy
If the Vow is not kept and all powers delivered in full, according to Gordon Brown’s timetable, the Labour party in Scotland have three options:
1. Resign en masse
2. Throw their full support behind an immediate repeat of the fraudulent referendum and tell the truth for a change
3. Pretend it didn’t all happen and stand for election with dishonour and no integrity
Given the antics of Alexander, Davidson, Sarwar, Lamont, Curran, Baillie, Dugdale, Murphy etc I think we have to assume it will be the third option for these shysters and crooks.
@James Caithness
I just posted something in the previous article “number 1” about that
Things are arranging in a way that, if we play it right, we will get another chance in 2017.
Of course, we need to get it right this time because that could really be the last chance, ever.
Drum roll.
I’d add that referendums are very difficult to achieve and even harder to win. A referendum gives the British State the opportunity to bring its full power to bear against us. We need to go back to the old idea of gaining a mandate for independence through the ballot box at a General Election, whilst Westminster is otherwise occupied.
If there is a lesson to be learned from Crimea, its that snap referendums tend to produce the desired result. 🙂
@ John Bell
Rankinston is also where Alexander Sloan (one of the first Labour MPs and great-great-grand-father of Katy Clark) came from; I have no idea what he would have thought about independence, but he was very radical in other ways, and would, I suspect, struggle to recognize the current Labour Party.
I have just seen the sickening sight of John Swinney shaking hands with Douglas Alexander. I am afraid that speaking for myself there can be no reconciliation with those who betrayed Scotland
I had a conversation with Tam Dalyell all of 17 years ago.
The West Lothian Question was not mischief making on his part. The Scottish Parliament and the WLQ have one inevitable logical and inexorable conclusion. And that is… the end of the union.
The WLQ has not gone away.This generation of unionist politicians are just waking up to it. But there is only one answer to it and that is Scottish independence.
Any attempt to answer it with an “English Grand Committee” federalism or any other tweaked change of status for Scots, Welsh or Irish MPs at Westminster still leads to that only possible single solution.
Anything else is merely a ‘sticking plaster’ not a solution.
As Joyce is pointing out, all of the unionist parties have themselves, to face their own WLQ in terms of their own party structures.(Hell mend them that is their own worry!)
The WLQ is deeply corrosive within Westminster and the Union itself.It only has that one singular conclusion that all other attempted remedies inevitably lead back to.If there EVER was any solution to it other than the end of the Union, then Tam Dalyell would have already given it all those years ago.
@ Albaman
You can’t avoid such comparisons because they are not inevitable: they are a choice made by a media with an agenda. The agenda does not change. Unless the mindset alter there is no point in dancing to their tune for they have given you red shoes
Haha. Westminster won the battle with their lickspittle stooges in Labour, but it would seem, we Scots will win the war – and sooner than people think.
The SNP might just double their membership over the next week, with 10000 new members this weekend alone. I personally bumped into two Labour people today, who astonished me by telling me, they were signing up to the SNP on Monday (as the SNP servers were down today due to overload).
Pay attention Westminster, up here in Scotland, a sleeping giant has awakened, it is organised and it is angry. Be afraid Westminster, be very afraid.
Why were the postal votes sent to London? Where are the missing votes?
Going to retire from posting for a while- dog tired – but watching unfolding hopes with interest – I believe a strengthened SNP is the first of these……Alex and Nicola – quality people who put other leading politicians in the shade. Another hope RIP Labour – my former ‘home’. Cheers all
On reflection, maybe we should look on the referendum as a rehearsal. We must have learned loads of what works where and why and which areas/demographics to concentrate on and improved. Now we start going into the final dress rehearsal stage for the ultimate performance, indy. 🙂
Can you imagine what could be done if the 800k households that voted yes stopped their tv licence and put that money towards a crowd fund?
With £100m plus we could buy STV, the Scotsman and further strengthen our online hold.
We would be the media.
For anyone who is still narked by all the rumours, counter rumours etc about the count on Friday then this is maybe one of the sites for you to visit. 😉
link to change.org
I am afraid that speaking for myself there can be no reconciliation with those who betrayed Scotland.
It’ll pass. Its the stages, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance.
Im in all of it but its not like it wasn’t going to happen.
NO voters, Scottish ones, seem really angry. Two NO pensioners I know told me to fuck off when I said they will no doubt be giving back their free bus passes.
Its a nasty old Tory world. They own it, they write the news, pay fuck all, trouser all the cash and then they leggit.
Countries like Norway have shaken off Tory crap for good but they didn’t do it overnight and at least we, proud Scots, still have a great chance of doing it one day.
Lesley-Anne says:
21 September, 2014 at 5:06 pm
Could this turn out to be one of THE iconic photographs of the year if not the decade?
Is this the ULTIMATE visual example of HOPE over FEAR?
link to facebook.com
GOOD BRAVE LASSIES surrounded by the BAD, the UGLY, the FOUL and the STAGNANT.
Great post Lesley-Anne
I will be rejoining the snp as soon as I get paid. Haven’t been a member for about 20 years and it doesn’t sit that easy but needs must.
@Piggy
They look to me to be trying to tear the saltire. Does anyone know for sure which side they were on.
The best thing is to refer to SLAB as “The British Labour Party In Scotland”
i tried it today. Got quite a reaction.
There are lots of reasons why people might not have voted.
There is no evidence that those who did not vote were those who registered at the last minute; as has been said, it is much more likely they were habitual non-voters who could not be enthused even by this.
The turnout was a record; it is never 100%, even in places like Australia where voting is compulsory.
I attempted to help people after the deadlines, who had failed to apply for a postal vote/proxy, but there were several who just had to accept that they would not be able to vote. A very few did not understand that registering to vote was not enough; they still had to attend a polling station on Thursday.
We can’t add those votes now; what we can do is carry on and try to get the vote out in May next year.
Because the under 65 demographic voted YES by a huge majority and those joining the SNP are mostly under 40 i can see a very dynamic group emerging . Unintended consequences?
It seems to be very difficult to re-join the SNP if, like me, you are a former member who no longer has any record of your membership number login and password for their site. E-mailed them but understandably haven’t had a response yet. I expect I’ll get it sorted so you can add another to their membership. I’ll try to persuade my very angry friend to join a political party for the first time in her life. Let’s try to get 20,000 new members. For the next GE, it has to be SNP!
Well I think I have just joined the SNP. Me and technology just do not get on. I went through the form and agreed to pay.
This leads me to the first queerie. There was a number of figure to click with the check mark in the £5 box, I chose to go with £8.
Then it went to another form asking me to either choose from £12 or £760 (Approx) for life membership. I clicked £12 had to put a credit card number in then it timed out and said SAFARI couldn’t open the site.
I think I shall phone tomorrow to see if I have actually joined.
@calgacus
But maybe Mr Swinney, like myself, has one of those little bottles of antiseptic handwipe in his pocket.
Yo Cameron.
Thanks to all the underhanded dirty lying tricks you and millionaire best buddies, Clegg and Milliband, ran in Scotland we still have THIS going on in Scotland. The people of Scotland will NEVER forget!
link to facebook.com
Nana Smith says:
@Piggy
They look to me to be trying to tear the saltire. Does anyone know for sure which side they were on.
I believe they are FOR indy Nana. I’m certain they are the same two lassies that I saw in a video being confronted by one of those ever so brave fascists/Orangemen.
Why is John Swinney shaking hands with Alexander and standing with Lamont, Davidson and Carmichael? The liars who have stolen Scotland’s Independence. There is nothing Christian about them. They are sinners.
How many of the 45 are now going to ban their kids from reading Harry Potter.lol
link to newsnetscotland.com this has very likely already been posted but.
@ nana smith 6.22
The lassie on the left (in black) was the same one who appeared on a video clip (posted on Wings last night I think)where a unionist thug pulled it from her hand while she was kneeling on the ground.
I can’t find the clip but it was on one of the threads here.
can anyone help?
@Lesley-Anne I’m pleased that is the case.
Lesley-Anne,
So here we are three days on and I for one can’t dry my tears. Each time I manage to distract myself something niggles at my brain and off I go again.
We must stop blaming the elderly for voting NO through fear, the blame lies totally with better together. These venal corrupt creatures have destroyed a beautiful peaceful awakening and I feel bereft.
How can this union possibly survive while its citizens are feeling so betrayed.
I am sure there are many feeling the same.
@Dunx Thanks for clarifying. It’s good to be sure.
Correct I have seen only sorrow.
Statement: How We Won And How We Will Win
link to nationalcollective.com
Nana –
link to vine.co
The ‘brave’ unionist thug will never be as brave as that wee girl
Thank you so much ChrisB for the links to the First Minister’s speech, both video and text.
Thanks muttley79 for your response to my comment.
Nana Smith, one of those girls was shown on a video on the ground in tears as unionist thugs tore the Saltire out of her hands; I sent that link to my parents in England who so far have steadfastly refused to believe that the BBC could ever lie. That young woman could easily have been my daughter, who started at Glasgow Uni last week.
Chic McGregor – brilliant image. We have kept one Yes sticker on each of our cars and I wore a t-shirt to work on Friday saying “Proud to have voted Yes” – created with the aid of a permanent ink pen. I got told to cover it up by my headteacher, who was afraid of parental complaints. Even the stupid no voters in the staffroom thought she was being vindictive.
I will keep wearing my Yes wristband and look forward to being able to buy 45/Yet merchandise in the near future. As soon as the server is back up and running, our whole family will be joining the SNP. My two teenage sons and I will be volunteering at our local food bank.
The fight is back on and we will win.
@Dunx
Here’s the link to the clip of the girl having the Saltire pulled from her hands:
link to vine.co
Hail Alba.
SLAB are going to get annihilated.
@Croompenstein
Thanks Croomp…feeling rather low again today so that is good to see.
Yes dears we are going to win-
But I am going to get very annoyed with anyone who is disrespectful to our senior citizens, did you do everything you could to reassure them when they were subject to the full force of Project Fear?
I am a 67 year old pensioner I voted YES because I have wanted Scottish independence for over 50 years.
I know many pensioners in my social circles who were adamant yes until the Sunday before the vote.
The Andrew Marr Show on a Sunday morning attracts a middle aged, middle class, audience. They watch the programme while getting ready for church.
Tommy Sheridan on that programme, the Sunday before the vote, talking to “brothers and sisters” and telling us about the proletariat and revolution. Lost a lot of YES votes.
The YES campaign needed someone else for that crucial programme at that crucial time.
Whoever thought that Tommy was the best person to convince the type of person watching that show made a grave error.
@davidb, I hope his fingers were crossed behind his back!
@stewart bc
Read the first line on the Wikipedia page…
link to en.wikipedia.org
Lie, cheat, threaten and intimidate for years then light a couple of candles and all is forgiven. Are we that stupid?
ScotsBob – Tommy is a great speaker, but the ‘brother sans sisters’ line moved by brother from SSP to SNP. As my brother pithily said, ‘The Berlin Wall fell 20 years ago, thank fxxk’. That line doesn’t work on me either. I have two brothers and that’s enough for me.
scotsbob
i’m a pensioner and surely @ this age they would know enough to know, that voting yes, was much much bigger than anyone person!
esp such a large and diverse campaign movement.
i don’t buy your explanation.
@Nana – I have never been so low but coming back to WoS and finding everyone still here helps keep the spirits up. Dishface called the result the settled will but by God it is not we are the 45. Settled will would have been at least 60-40 which was the least they expected so we have rattled them.
I would just like to say that Eric Joyce put his party before his country and his countrymen so I nominate him for #Everybodycanstillfucckrightoffday
I agree with you Nana about stopping the blame game. However I think there are a lot of people out there who are still in *mourning* and it will take some time for them to reach a position where they stop blaming the older voter and revert to blaming Brown, Darling etc.
I know it is difficult to do but given time I’m sure most of us will be able to acknowledge that the older voter was down right lied to and they believed the lies. I have no reason to doubt the fact that there are a great deal of older voters out there who are themselves feeling ashamed with themselves. They thought, as did we, that they were doing the right thing for Scotland. Unfortunately with all the lies beginning to fall apart within 24 hours they can now see the error of their ways and will no doubt be more accepting of arguments FOR independence in future.
PS. If we lived in a decent country, the girl who got beaten up by the Better Together supporters, the two girls who held on to their saltire and the three young lads sitting dejected on a bench would already be household names. We don’t live in a decent country, but if they were my children, I think I would burst with pride. I don’t know you, but I am so proud of you. Maybe Kirsty Work might interview them. Yeah, right.
Thank you Lesley-Anne, I have just become a petitioner at the court of session on the grounds that the 800,000 postal votes left Scottish legal supervision when they were sent to London.
Lesley-Anne
many pensioners were duped.
we have some info by what, in the #btpatronisingleaflets, youtube and MSM.
but what else, went on there is a big hole in my understanding.
it is the what else occurred that needs to be known imo.
🙂
Read on twitter that Standard Life removed posters of Andy Murray from walls in offices so thought I would be equally petty and cancel my insurance policy, now with LV. (Hope they are not connected).
@Lesley-Anne, aye the picture of the two young lasses with the saltire is iconic. Spirit of Caledonia indeed
@Croompenstein
Well your last comment made me smile!
@Lesley-Anne
These same oldies were around last time we were lied to, so I can’t imagine why they thought this would be any different especially seeing those involved in the ‘con’
I guess having the media constantly beat you with negatives does have an effect.
Hopefully there eyes are now wide open.
Guys I hate to say it but the vote was a total fix. The entire campaign WM didn’t give a toss, for 2 years they ignored us. Are we to believe that 2 weeks before the vote the No camp panicked like headless chickens as they realised they were losing and threw the kitchen sink at us.
Personally, the constant downplaying of the size of the Yes support in the media along with marginal polling left the door open to fixing and the calm that appeared across the entire BTNoUKOK camp 5 days before the vote is clearly evident for all to see.
On the night the voting process was severely flawed and reports of ballots placed on tables, fire alarms and the massively telling low turnouts for Dundee and Glasgow utterly stinks.
Did we really think the establishment would let us go with a vote?
link to twitter.com
This is just the beginning, they want us to quit, to roll over, to be all together. No way.
The Yes stickers and badges are staying on display until the last foodbank is no longer needed.
Paula Rose
I have several retired neighbours who were either no or even though they didnt say, undecided. I emailed them many times with info on what we would gain by a yes, and what we would lose by a no. I sent links feom business for Scotland, nns, wos, bella, etc etc.Even sent them the McCrone report, one had the wee blue book, she said we couldn’t do it no money and as they had been told, we would defo get more powers. I spent an hour last week end, trying to convince her to vote yes giving all arguments and facts as much as poss, they all voted no. They have all taken their proud to british and something about being Scottish at the same time posters off their windows, so with their no thks stickers, the retired couple upstairs had the wee poster liking A Salmond to hitler, the old guy once said he though maybe hitler had the right idea when we were all having xmas neighbourly drinks! I do not think he was joking I am now unable to speak to them. All well off by the way, had free degrees good jobs etc, but pulled a v big ladder up behind them. They had the facts but voted no.
I did not expect to feel such animosity, I can forgive the old ladies I met last week who had been obviously duped by the lies, but not the ones who knew exactly what the consequences would be for the poor and vulnerable. Shame on them.
Look at the history – salmond is Wallace – he’s taken us this far – next will come the Bruce to finish the job.
scotsbob says:
21 September, 2014 at 7:02 pm
“I know many pensioners in my social circles who were adamant yes until the Sunday before the vote.
The Andrew Marr Show on a Sunday morning attracts a middle aged, middle class, audience. They watch the programme while getting ready for church.
Tommy Sheridan on that programme, the Sunday before the vote, talking to “brothers and sisters” and telling us about the proletariat and revolution. Lost a lot of YES votes.
The YES campaign needed someone else for that crucial programme at that crucial time.
Whoever thought that Tommy was the best person to convince the type of person watching that show made a grave error.”
I think scotsbob makes an interesting point here. We need to be as cunning as foxes and ready to adapt. The YES movement is diverse, but maybe a greater level of coordination for media purposes would be helpful. Everyone has ability and purpose, but sometimes we need a driver who can see the road ahead.
Wings must go on until we win! I first joined th SNP when I was 17. When I woke up Friday I was disappointed but I was also angry. Where I work the staff were furious. That is in North Lanarkshire. People are talking about a day of retribution. I realise that all that is talk but folks are angry. Obviously a lot of people are energised and up for the next step. I don’t believe anything meaningful will ever come out of Westminster. I’m 57 and I’ve seen it all before. I agree the focus should now be with the SNP. We know who we are aiming at and the Tories have set them up. There is now really only one party keeping Scotland in the Union and they have been exposed for the liars and charlatans they are. Get Labour out! Next referendum and there will be one and I don’t believe it will be that far from now, we will win. That’s what were working towards. Keep the goal in sight.
Westminster have so far broke their promise of a motion in Westminster. If they shatter their promise completely for example no bill in January as promised are we not entitled to unilaterally declare independence?
I know Hetty – many of us did our best, but many were not supported – I’m taking aim at those who did not do what we did.
@nana smith
LMFAO No Red Tories …..Brilliant.
@Donald
Before a Bill in January they have to produce a command paper by 31st October (ooooh Halloween!)then intensive consultation with the Scottish people by end November (St Andrews Night oooooh symbolic)
Then something else happens on Burns Night.
What about Christmas and Hogmonay?
Just though all you conspiracy theorists out there might enjoy this. 😉
link to facebook.com
Apologies if this has been posted before, I suspect it has, if not WHY NOT! 😛
link to heraldscotland.com
Is it me or is this a powerful reason FOR independence?
link to facebook.com
All those postal votes should be retained & addresses checked against the Electorial Roll & Council Tax Register.
The Electorial Commission are placed men & women & should be see as such,time to weed those people out Top down.
This Electorial Fraud should go to Law in the High Court.