A cure for depressing times
Posted on
October 13, 2017 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
We thought, since it’s Friday, you might like a really good laugh.
If you’re wondering if the “anti-establishment” Anas Sarwar is the same one who was privately educated at a £10,000-a-year grammar school, a hereditary millionaire who has also made his children millionaires while one of them is still in nappies, is privately educating the others, who had a Westminster seat handed down to him by his father but then lost it at the first opportunity, and who is now a Holyrood MSP without a single person in Scotland actually voting for him (having previously derided the Parliament as “undemocratic”), we can confirm that yes, it is.
I know I shouldn’t but Anas always sounds far too close to the orifice from which he speaketh.
Brilliant. The guy is a Sknob
Perfect “Jim Murphy 2 – the 2nd coming (with cash)”
The Anti-establishment Millionaire…..that has a bit of a ring to it.
Anyone offering book and film rights.
Anti-establishment?
I know this is a pet hate for the Rev but…. Ahahahahahahahahah (and breathe) hahahahahahaha! 😀 ROFLMAO
“I’m an anti-establishment rebel,” announces Prince Harry.
Is he not confusing ‘anti-establishment’ with UKIP?
Wait a minute …
British nationalists are the establishment. A rancid stinking establishment.
“and who is now a Holyrood MSP without a single person in Scotland actually voting for him (having previously derided the Parliament as “undemocratic”), we can confirm that yes, it is.”
The man is unembarrassable. I look forward with anticipation to him becoming branch office manager.
I must admit, this Labour leadership contest is more difficult to call than the others.
When Johann Lamont pt herself forward, I knew I wanted her.
When Jim Murphy put himself forward, I was desperate for him to win, and genuinely didn’t believe labour would be so stupid..
I believed Kez would be a gift to the SNP, and so it proved.
But this time around, I just don’t know who is the most inept, useless, gaffe-prone, lying, toadying nobody with the most skeletons in the cupboard.
I mean they haven’t even been elected yet and they are already damaging the Labour Party.
In saying all that, if I had to make a decision think I would plump for Anas, because I knew him before this ‘leadership contest’ and know how badly he comes over in debates/interviews, i do believe he will do the most damage to Labour.
Although if Leonard gets the nod, I’m sure he ‘won’t let us down’
From his f/b page…on brexit.
“The Tories are in chaos today over Brexit. As Scottish Labour leader, I will support permanent membership of the European single market”.
Really ?
I thought the official labour line was to support brexit due to being “democrats” ?
Has Anas Sarwar given any examples to show how he’s the anti-establishment candidate, or is he delusional and its simply all just in his mind?
Anas through the Looking Glass.
The bbc loves him of course.
Therefore he stands in opposition to normal social,economic and political conventions?
Possibly he is conventional and anti establishment at the same time ? As a member of Scotlab anything is possible I suppose.
I have seen principle benders in my time ,but this guy is right up there with the best.
For Anas Sarwar, of all people, to say he is anti-establishment shows contempt for the electorate as well as a brass neck – the size of Nelson’s Column.
He is so false and insincere, whenever I hear him I squirm.
Let’s hope the 1300 new Pakistan members of Slab, together with his brainwashed camp following will ensure he replaces Kezia the loudmouth zombie as regional party leader.
But how will he know we’re not being racist when we pour insults on him for his general and vile nastiness. The answer is of course he won’t – he’ll just play the racist victim card and bore us all to death.
Och well, if we must have ‘im, let’s’ ave him.
But will he be embraced by the BBC lot over on Pacific Quay. Somehow, I think not.
Does anyone know if either of the famous Labour seers, Hothersall or McTernan, have expressed support for Sarwar or t’other dude?
@ Ian Brotherhood.
Apparently the Edinburgh constituency that Duncan is Election agent in, has backed Leonard.
It is rumoured that Duncan is not amused.
Hair will fly.
@ Ian Brotherhood – was it not the McTernan Seer who penned the immortal prophecy:
There’ll come a time
However long it be
When a fresh-faced, silk suited dentist
Will rise to lead the proletarian party.
After which, the people of Scotland
Will take peaceful possession of their lands
And prosper for evermore
Under an SNP Government Land Reform policy.
Where do they get all these numpties from?
“Scottish Indy movement always been too conservative” – Simon Pia
@Simon Pia
I’d have thought you might have spotted the ‘radical’ nature of separatism, which aims to remove the historical shackles of British nationalism, which continue to undermine Scotland’s autonomy and free-will. Liberating a nation from colonial domination is the antithesis of conservative, frankly.
Capella,
I get where your coming from, but I prefer the classic,
Forsooth there came at last
A Dentist called Anas
His rebel yell
was utter hell
made Murphy seem a blast
@ Daisy Walker – inspirational! 🙂
Lost for words really. What a disgrace. There are people starving, being made deliberately destitute and homeless, and these establishment troughers are taking the rip out of the people of Scotland.
They are devoid of any conscience. Self seeking, selfish turds, sorry but they are.
Raised up high by the establishment compliant mass media, taking attention away from the fact that they are paid very highly for not being anywhere near effective opposition to the dreadful, cruel Tories. What are they for? Who do they represent? What is the point of them in public life?
Hope this doesn’t come across as dumb but how can anyone have a Westminster seat handed to them or become an MSP without a single vote.
How is that possible ?
I must confess that I thought that other chap would win being both a Corbynite and a useful Kenneth Williams look alike but I read somewhere that that almost all of the 1600 or so new Labour members are pro-Anas supporters from Glasgow. Given how few active members SLab have I am inclined to think he may actually now have the edge.
I can’t decide which would be better for SNP, they each bring their own baggage, but I am leaning towards Anas getting it as I think he would deliver the most laughs if nothing else.
re;CameronB brodie @2.21
Verbal diarrhoea from Simon Pia there.
I think we can avoid any of the spurious accusations of racism by simply pointing out that we ARE prejudiced but against dentists.
We are unapologetic anti-dentites.
Mystic Meg has just proclaimed, “Dentists, millionaires, people on the living wage will be celebrating toooooo.”
@Capella/Patrick Roden/Handandshrimp –
The tears are drippin aff ma seat here, just the thought of the Kenneth Williams dude becoming leader. It would be worth it just for all the ‘What A Carry On!’ headlines.
And then, who would be their Babs Windsor? Sid James? Their Bernard Bresslaw would surely be Neil Findlay…
…canny stop laughing, must take the dog for a walk and calm down a bit…it’s raining big-time, but, hey, I’ll just Carry On Regardless.
😉 😉 🙂
Oh, Anas is doing that Labourite thing, and speaking in code.
On the face of it, his claim is absurd, as Stu can easily point out.
But what he’s actually saying is that his opponent, Leonard, is the establishment candidate, ie. the one who will do the will of the bosses down in London.
Leonard is a longstanding union apparatchik who will enforce Corbyn & Co’s edicts upon the Northern Accounting Office. Can you just imagine the unlikelihood of an Englishman sounding off like Kez did to claim that he’s in charge and “Scottish” Labour will follow its own path, independent of London?
It was always an unlikely proposition at the best of times, but I for one can’t see Leonard, whom I reckon will be the winner, doing anything other than turning NorthBritLab back into a mere front for its London masters.
Sarwar may be a dolt, but he’s our dolt. He isn’t the one we have to worry about, it’s Leonard. His real allegiance lies elsewhere.
The SNP may have sailed a tweedy backwater in the 50s but then a fair bit of Scotland sailed those waters in the 50s, which was the Conservatives last real swansong in here. Prior to then there was little conservative about the founding father Cunninghame Graham and from the 70s onwards the SNP have steered towards ever more progressive aspirations.
I think Pia and others tend to look at the 50s and forget about what went before and what came after, looking to brand a movement with a zeitgeist from an era where a great many of the active members were not even alive never mind active participants.
I thought New Labour were quite conservative though.
Struggling to think who would look good dressed up as Hattie Jacques…
*more hysterical laughter gradually dims as he exits with confused dog*
I’m the urban spaceman, baby; I’ve got speed
I’ve got everything I need
I’m the urban spaceman, baby; I can fly
I’m a supersonic guy
Sorry,—Completely Off-Topic.
Independence Live on Livestream at the SNP Conference on Tuesday the 10th..
They were transmitting for well over four hours!
In this clip Livestream gather four people from the Socialist group within the SNP,for a round table discussion on many issues affecting us all.
Nice atmosphere.
Scroll, starting 23:00,finishing to 1:17:40. 🙂
http://tinyurl.com/yb43axkv
Do you suffer from hemeroids? Need help
Buy the new
Proanas Support Stockings
straight from the deer Green Place.
9 out of 10 dentists recommend them.
Put a smile on your face – Proanas Support – you know it makes sense. For the money, not for you.
Artyhetty
A right pile of havers that suggests a certain arrogance and contempt for the Scottish public, IMHO. 😉
To be honest, I don’t think there is a better candidate for the position of ‘Scottish Labour’ leader in terms of Scotland becoming Independent.
Struggling to think who would look good dressed up as Hattie Jacques…
Neil Findlay again? 🙂
or the keeper of the abacus
anas is the london labour candidate, parachuted in against the wishes of slab,
but it was london who pays for slab so they do are they are told.
notice how anas’s biggest supporters are the most unionist of slab’s supporters
Its funny but Anas has clearly been watching Orange Hitler’s campaign. Orange Hitler was going to drain the swamp for starters but he’s done exact opposite. Be interesting to see if Scots fall for Anas’s bullshit too.
Anas Sarwar claims to be the anti establishment candidate? That’s almost as funny as the Tory government asserting that they know what they’re doing in the Brexit negotiations.
Odious little lying toad. That’s all.
A friend of mine is a Labour activist who went to the dundee hustings and came away intending to vote for Sarwar as he was the least worst! Says it all really.
Excellent: 🙂
Leonard likened to Kenneth Williams is not a bad shout as is the suggestion for she who is ‘keeper of the abacus’
But Sawar must be favoured to win even though he is a bit of an a@s@!
PS:
Brexit poll suggesting public regrets decision
https://archive.is/EaNUA
You would think such an expensive school /education would have taught him the meaning of oxymoron,or is he just the moron??
To paraphrase an old billy connely joke (when he was actually Scottish and funny…)
“The very desire to become leader of the labour party in Scotland, should automatically bar you from ever being so”.
Dunno about anti-establishment but given his families approach to political nepotism he must at least be uncle establishment…
I’ll get ma jaiket…
I am going to have to stop reading your articles Stuart as every time I end up wetting my Y fronts through sheer laughter at the statements these numpties make, but I could always carry on if I send you my cleaning bill????
Imagine when there are two of them. Are any of them elected? No 1 or no 2 Labour are totally useless. Image be the rats in a sack keeping it going until they are not voted in. Most of the wee months voted in in any case. Money for old rope. Get be them enough rope. They can’t count or read a balance sheet. Just a bunch of complete incompetents. How anyone in Scotland can vote for them. After all they have done is just a mystery. Maybe they are paying the ‘actoivists’. They certainly deal it out down south. Using pubic money to fund a Labour Party. That is illegal. How many votes have they signed up from the same e-Mail address and phone number. Electoral fraud. It should be investigated. Buying votes the usual Labour/unionist way.
Simon Pia is an alcoholic who needs counselling. He should go and get help. Things might seem different when he is sober.
Predictive Text jumps – when being posted? It reverts back to other words/spellings. Really annoying. That’s Apple. Sending nonsensical text all around the world. Lost in translation.
Oh well I guess you can sell any old junk with enough promotion – O N C E – It takes a certain skill to keep punting the same piss over and over again before you get rumbled.
These two Clowns have been found out even before the off , which leaves Labour voters with a real dilemma, what one would cause the least damage, I wonder how many will just not bother rather than be associated with these useless bloody candidates .
Well if BLIS___d are choosing between anti-establishment candidates, the entire accounting unit must be deviants. I thought that was our gig. 🙂
https://www.thoughtco.com/psychological-explanations-of-deviant-behavior-3026268
However there is a cohort of Labour voters who think they will be voting for J Corbyn when the vote Labour in Scotland, but haven’t grasped that that also would leave then attached to a Tory Westminster most of the time.
These two labour candidates just highlight the utter dearth of talent in the labour party, especially in Scotland.
As i keep saying, only supporting independence in Scotland, can save them now.
The electorate of Scotland are behind the SNP, even after 10 years.
By attacking the SNP constantly, the unionists are attacking a very large bunch of Scottish voters. That will never get them elected anywhere near power.
The man’s an utter waste of space. A charlatan. If the working classes, the poor and vulnerable think that he’s going to do anything for them they can think again.
‘Anti-Bedroom Tax Protesters visit Anas Sarwar MP.’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM3TdWjud
An admirer of Trump and advocate of building walls between countries, such as India and Pakistan. Say no more.
https://archive.org/index.php#
schrodingers cat says:
“anas is the london labour candidate”
Yes. It must terrify Labour Central Command in London that someday sometime ther Scottish branch might go native and actually put Scotland first!
schrodingers cat @ 15:07
Well, that’s just plain daft. Sarwar has Glasgow roots, and was the obvious local successor to Kez. It’s Leonard who is clearly the Corbyn candidate, though I wouldn’t describe even him as “parachuted in”, since as a serving MSP he has a perfect right to stand.
It is generally true however that people with an immigrant background tend to see themselves as “British”, since they don’t normally have any “Scottish”, “English”, etc. affiliation as most of we natives do. So I wouldn’t be surprised if Sarwar and some of his support were more than usually BritNat.
Corbyn’s interest in Scotland via Leonard is in winning back support for Labour if possible, but plan B is to try to keep the SNP onside in case they’ll be needed to propel him into power at the next UKGE, whenever that is. No more, no less. It’s as cynical as that.
Ooops that didn’t work! Check out the article / video.
https://jenkers.com/en#!t=12191830
Not exactly off topic, as we are discussing BLiS___D. It goes without saying though, that deviance is culturally reflexive of social norms, values and practices. 🙂
Deviance and crime: social construction, labeling, power and function
https://www.slideshare.net/wrigveda/slides-by-dr-rajan-rayamajhi-on-deviance-and-crime-social-construction-labeling-power-and-function
Not a Sarwar (or Leaonard) fan. But having read the piece Sarwar has been dirtily stitched up by the headline.
Anas is anti establishment. Labour establishment is for the working classes and poor. He is neither, ergo, anti establishment.
O/T ALYN SMITH mep’s EU READING LIST:
The UK trade delegations sent to Washington with Liam Fox was only 27 strong versus the 77 US representatives, and had next to no direct experience of trade deals.
unearthed.greenpeace.org/…
In a vindictive move the Tory party have suspended two MEPs who agreed that insufficient progress had been made in the Brexit talks.
uk.reuters.com/…
The European Committee of the Scottish Parliament met with Michel Barnier who confirmed that although his door was open to Scotland and Wales “It was the UK Government’s responsibility as to how it composed its negotiating team.”
parliament.scot/…
The First Minister of Wales Carwyn Jones has said that a ‘no deal’ outcome would be a disaster.
bloomberg.com/…
I met with my German colleague Barbara Lochbihler MEP earlier this month to discuss Scotland and the Brexit negotiations.
youtube.com/…
Farmers’ incomes will be cut in half if a ‘no deal’ occurs, according to a report by the Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board.
ahdb.org.uk/…
A ‘no deal’ Brexit deal will cost $15,000 (£11,000) per person, according to Rabobank.
economics.rabobank.com/…
“Between the three months to May 2017 and the three months to August 2017, total trade in goods exports fell due to decreased exports to non-EU countries, partially offset by increased exports to other EU countries.”
ons.gov.uk/…
The IMF upgraded every advanced nation’s economic growth prospects except the UK in its latest set of forecasts.
thetimes.co.uk/…
The EU and the UK have started to engage WTO members on the UK’s withdrawal.
ec.europa.eu/…
The Scottish Government has released a publication focussing on the point of view of businesses. It focusses on real companies with real people and real examples.
gov.scot/…
The UK released two more position papers but didn’t consult the Scottish Government.
twitter.com/…
The papers are available here:
gov.uk/…
and here:
gov.uk/…
Philip Hammond has conceded that a ‘no deal’ could lead to grounded flights.
politico.eu/…
“My advice to the UK when they leave the EU is: don’t build the border station too small, you need plenty of space,” says Roger Nilsson, a 30-year veteran of Sweden’s border force.
politico.eu/…
The British Airlines and Pilots Association says a Brexit ‘no deal’ would be a “disaster”.
balpa.org/…
A leaked internal report by the Irish Revenue Commissioners has argued that an open customs border between Ireland and the UK will be impossible after Brexit concluding: “Once negotiations are completed … the UK will become a third country for customs purposes and the associated formalities will become unavoidable.”
rte.ie/…
Former Irish Taoiseach John Bruton has said that the EU “cannot rely on UK to stick to Brexit deal” because of division within the Tory party.
theguardian.com/…
Irish Minister for Finance Paschal Donohoe unveiled a €300 million Brexit loan scheme to help small businesses as they deal with Brexit.
irishtimes.com/…
Whitehall departments are fighting over Brexit staff.
ft.com/…
Belgian ports such as Zeebrugge are getting increasingly nervous about Brexit.
theguardian.com/…
The EU has started looking into tightening its euro clearing rules to reduce the dominance of the City of London.
euractiv.com/…
Though insufficient progress has been made to allow negotiations to start, the EU has proposed to start discussing amongst themselves what kind of trade deal the UK could potentially be offered in the future.
politico.eu/…
Finally, if you are in Edinburgh this Saturday then there will be a Rally for Europe, urging the UK Government to think again on Brexit.
euromovescotland.org.uk/…
O/T
Just spoken to someone who is just two minutes off the phone to Malky Mackay and apparently Folk are rallying to have him as permanent manager. Otherwise it looks likes is Moyles. Also hot off the press, don’t tell anyone its a secret, this person has been meeting Hadji and Mackay and is trying to organise a rematch next year for the 20th anniversary of Morocco v Scotland. I said I wouldn’t tell anyone ?
PS its fecking raining in Atlas Mountains.
O/T Just received this e’mail from the derisory scotland in union
Sorry could not copy it. the jist is there is to be a debate in the UK parliament in early Nov because they have came up with 200000 signatures against an indyref 2. they are telling people to lobby their MP’s
You know what to do folks!
OT – totally unbelievably incredibly OT
Yay! Got my server renewed at £500 + VAT for the year, same price as last year and the year before and the year before that. Don’t ask, don’t get, the actual renewal price was, errr, a lot higher 🙂
Patrick Roden @13:24
When Johann Lamont pt herself forward, I knew I wanted her.
Ooerrrr missus
An anti establishment figure would reject the socio- economic politics of the disunited kingdom and look elsewhere for inspiration;
‘the Nordic model is still standing tall. That is even an understatement. It is the only socio-economic model emerging from the ideological conflicts of the last century, which has stood the test of time in the age of globalization…
The global financial mechanism, run for the benefit of „maximizing shareholder value“, continues to usurp the real economy and concentrate wealth and income in the coffers of a tiny elite. This system is inherently corrupt and utterly unsustainable. The massive eradication of jobs due to the ongoing technological revolution of automation will ultimately make this financial rentier-system unworkable. Underneath the surface deep-rooted social discontent is gathering strength, waiting to erupt, although the manifestations of it are still diverse and incoherent. But we are waiting for the gathering storm…
On almost every criterion of socio-economic success, the Nordic countries come out top of the class. This is surprising because the neo-liberal critique of high taxes making those countries uncompetitive and ultimately technological laggards, devoid of the entrepreneurial spirit, had gained much credence. But here we are: Economic growth, hourly productivity, technological innovation, participation in the labour market (specially by women), quality of education, social mobility, quality health care, equality of income, affordable housing for all, access to unspoiled nature – a vibrant democracy; you name it, they´ve got it…
It is a measure of how dismally the British Tories have handled the Brexit affair if they end up with no alternative but EFTA. On the other hand, EFTA membership and access to the single market through the EEA, would make perfect sense for an independent Scotland, were the UK to break up into its constituent parts after Brexit. This is not as far-fetched a possibility as it may seem for the time being. Scotland, after all, voted against leaving the EU, and the Scottish government is insisting on Scotland´s right to maintain access to the single market. This, indeed, could become the interesting outcome of one of the greatest political flops of recent history – namely Brexit’
https://www.socialeurope.eu/core-strength-amidst-sea-change
PhilM @ 2.39
Nice, I liked the obscure Seinfeld reference. If Anas wins then it might become more widely recognised.
Perhaps one for Mr Sarwar would be George’s “Jerry, just remember, it’s not a lie if you believe it”.
The Beard, season 6 episode 15.
@manandboy 4.32pm.
It seems like every day I have to struggle to convince myself that Brexit is actually happening. It is so blindingly obvious that it will be disastrous. This morning I actually heard a journalist on tv say that “It will all work out” and “The people have spoken” when challenged about the complexities of leaving the EU. Because, although a Brexiteer herself, she obviously hadn’t a clue about what we should do next. No one does.
I get the feeling that many of these people who support Brexit know that it will be ruinous for Britain, but for some reason , pride perhaps, just won’t admit it, even to themselves.
As usual, it will be the poor who will suffer most. Those who are barely surviving now will bear the brunt of this folly. Even people who think they are well off now won’t escape.
If only Scotland had said Yes in 2014.
As one of his predecessors once said, ‘Bring it on …’
Any relation to Anas Pooyorick I wonder.
A fellow of infinite jest.
It is reported that Spreadsheet Phil Hammond referred to the EU27 negotiators as ‘the enemy’ in Washington today.
He’s back tracked since of course.
I welcome being categorised as one of Hammond’s enemies. No need to apologise to me, Phil.
So it’s WW III is it?
Yeah, but he’s not actually ROYAL is he? Bleedin’ commoner like the rest of us proles inne?
Like f*** he is. What a tosser.
As the SNP is the now the unofficial establishment party in Scotland and offering things like a publicly owned electricity company offering cheap electricity, doubling funding on childcare and paying the fees on European nationals in the public sector then maybe Mr Sarwar is the true Anti-establishment figure by being against these?
@Pac Man,
I like the way you think.
@Jack Collatin
RE: Hammond diplomatic gaff
He surely did. Posted a link over on WGD. Unfortunately its a site that doesn’t archive well and it’s O/T, so I’ve avoided posting here.
I have said it before and I say it again, go Sanwar go Sanwar.
For it is he. Will Ian Murray never get the red tory leader he wants? I know, who is Ian Murray?
EXCLUSIVE
18 hrs ago
Scottish Labour leadership contest is being “rigged”, says party MP Ian Murray
Exclusive by Paul Hutcheon
Investigations Editor
Good Heavens! Talking about the Western Isles, and having said “we’re now at the far end of these Isles”, later Neil Oliver actually managed to use the word Scotland, though he probably needed a colonic irrigation afterwards. Or maybe had one before.
Its a crying shame he’s ruined in any real chance of becoming the branch office leader in Scotland. Having another Dugdale or Murphy would have been really nice for the election campaigns to come.
Hammond made the point that we are ‘united at home ‘.home obviously being england,because we sure as f**k aren’t united with them.
Sarwar anti-establishment?
Does that make him a rebel?
Without a clue?
With lots of cash.
O/T Great display of UKOK toryboy media right now c4 teatime news, C4 ligger smearing Harvey Weinstein all over Hillary Clinton. They’re a crazy breed tory UK hackdom.
Regional list: Anas Sarwar, Johann Lamont, James Kelly. Pauline McNeill: Seats 4, Votes 59,151.
You don’t vote for the candidate, but the party, in the Regional list.
heedtracker 17 03
As for vote being rigged, I read on one of these sites, that SLAB had hundreds of member applications, all from the same e-mail address.
Hammond “united at home”, I think when he was talking about aliens invading, it was the invasion of the bodysnatchers and they’d already got him.
“united”: Scotland voted 62% Remain and is now up to 65% (or more), NI voted 57% Remain, Wales and Scotland are not going to accept the EU withdrawal Bill, and it’s increasingly likely there’ll be enough Conservative rebels to drown it, if NI and the Good Friday agreement aren’t sorted there’s troubles ahead, the UK as a whole is now up to 47% Remain but 42% Leave according to Yougov, the Brexit secret service team haave a report showing Scotland is screwed rotten leaving the EU but refuse to release it, Hammond and Johnson are on their final final warning again and May herself is likely on her final morning every day as PM, support for Indy is at least 46% probably more by now,
and Hammond says the UK is “United”.
If Anas wins the labour leadership he’ll be demanding a tilting seat in the chamber ( gimme that mouthwash )
starlaw says:
13 October, 2017 at 7:22 pm
heedtracker 17 03
As for vote being rigged, I read on one of these sites, that SLAB had hundreds of member applications, all from the same e-mail address.
Yes, its yoon culture pooling and sharing resources. Live the dream, Crash Gordo style.
Wonder why Crash has kept out of this farce.
@manandboy says:13 October, 2017 at 1:56 pm:
“But will he be embraced by the BBC lot over on Pacific Quay. Somehow, I think not.”
If London Labour in Scotland chose Auld Clootie himself as the accounting unit leader the BBC would embrace him.
Hammond is a member of one of the most disunited Westminster cabinets ever seen. No wonder he can’t see that the so-called united kingdom is disintegrating. Like the rest of these British nationalists he prefers the past to the uncomfortable present. No wonder the britnat Tv media shows so many WWII films.
This latest labour leadership contest stinks of the ‘Falkirk Fiasco’ to replace Joyce the MP where labour were covering up the cover up that covered up a cover up that covered up the original cover up where all the cover ups started – I think!
Labour in Scotland are like the Adams family, or is that too unkind – to the Adams family?
Or the Keystone Cops, but not so silent.
@Ronnie Anderson –
If Sarwar ever gets Leonard as a patient, it could end up a lot like this…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0cZK1c0wpE
@Ian Brotherhood says: 13 October, 2017 at 2:47 pm:
“Struggling to think who would look good dressed up as Hattie Jacques…”
There is, without doubt, an absolute cert to fill the roll of Hattie Jacques and we all know who that is.
Or the Keystone Cops, but not so silent.
Well olde JC voted Remain but wants Brexit. JC’s veep of CND but wants to buy Trident 2, just never fire it, well maybe, it all depends really.
This beeb tory bootboy’s interview with Jezza explains how, by voting Remain, JC thinks Brexit is going to be fine.
https://twitter.com/BBCNormanS
Hi Ken500 at 3:47 pm.
You typed,
“Predictive Text jumps – when being posted? It reverts back to other words/spellings. Really annoying. That’s Apple. Sending nonsensical text all around the world. Lost in translation.”
I’ve been using Macs since 1997 and don’t have that problem. When I’m typing, if the Mac (or Firefox) thinks a spelling is suspect, a red underline appears under the suspect word.
I right-click on it and am offered a list of substitutes or “add to dictionary”. “Add to dictionary” is handy for words like “MacGonnagall”. If it’s a simple word like “deceit”, the list WILL include the correct spelling, which I click on to select.
It’s up to you to choose whether or not you choose “auto-correct”. You, obviously, have that as your choice. In Firefox, you go to Preferences > Advanced, then tick the box beside “Check my spelling as I type”.
Outside of Firefox, I would disable any “auto-correct” – you only want to be told, not pre-empted.
For younger readers who haven’t had the “luck” to watch the Keystone Kops, here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8jphxpi1ro
@Robert Peffers –
Yes indeed, I think I know who you think I’m referring to, and I daresay you’re ‘probably’ correct, but I really wouldn’t want to finger anyone like that.
😉
Wonder why Crash has kept out of this farce.
From what I’ve heard, old ‘Crash’ or should that be ‘Cash Gordon’ is still the organ grinder here in Scotland (Think, Alex Rowley at FMQ’s when he landed Sarwar in it and gave Nicola an open goal.)
Interesting question on Any question just now…
Is Nicola Sturgeon a wiser or a luckier leader than the leader of the Catalans?
talking rubbish apparently only one of the 8 key factors is being met in the SNHS?
Ian Blackford on the panel…
Lord Forsyth says it is very worrying that the EU couldn’t bring itself to condemn the violence we saw recently.
Catalonia is the richest part of Spain, Scotland is not the richest part of the uK and that’s why we need to keep the Union.
Ian Blackford doing sterling work putting across the view from where we sit.
Chap from the Times is getting into deep water accusing the SNP of going to Catalonia to cause trouble!
Joanna Cherry was invited by the Catalans…
Audience groaning at Forsyth who says Nicola is lucky because she has several million pounds of shale oil under Glasgow and she is very stupid because she has banned it – went on to say that if the SNP had been in power 40 years ago, they would never have allowed N. Sea oil to be extracted.
Programme coming from Wellington church Glasgow. R4 BBC
Programme repeated tomorrow at 1.10 until 2pm.
I prefer David Dimbleby’s chairmanship of Any Questions… any time panellists try to go off topic and rant about the SNP being incapable or wasting money, he STOPS them and moves on to another speaker, or else reprimands them for going O/T…
What a difference from his big brother…
Much better programme as a result.
Programme ends with Ian Blackford singing!!!!! Don’t miss it tomorrow.
went on to say that if the SNP had been in power 40 years ago, they would never have allowed N. Sea oil to be extracted.
Cannot believe he said that.
They really are getting desperate.
Just thought I would do one more post … in case it’s like Brain of Britian and you get a bonus point for making 5 in a row.
Forsyth pointed out that there a lot of trees being chopped down in scotland just now – have you noticed?
He has a lot of rich friends and it would seem that they are all cashing in on turning their trees into wood chip for energy and picking up a subsidy for their troubles… and who’s paying for this – we all are in our electricity bills apparently.
@Meg merrilees
I kind of like Forsyth, ever since he got annoyed with Foulkes and came out with this:
“In 1707, we had the union of the Parliaments. The kingdom of Scotland and the kingdom of England ceased to exist in 1707 because the United Kingdom was created. Therefore, it is illiterate as well as misleading to suggest that there would still be a United Kingdom. If Scotland were to leave the United Kingdom, the United Kingdom would cease to exist.” (my bold!)
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201212/ldhansrd/text/120228-0001.htm
yesindyref2 says:
All things are relative. Tories were never good, but Tories of the past were nothing like as bad the present lot.
Even setting aside opinions, attitudes and policies, are there any current HoC/Holyrood Tories who clearly have triple figure IQs? None come to mind,
Forsyth is dead right about the trees by the way, timber lorries everywhere and if you’re in one place long enough you can see a few lorries going up the road full and down empty, 2, 3, 4 times a day. Scotland is being deforested rapidly. More asset-stripping I guess, before we get Indy.
@galamcennalath
Indeed. Mundell is like a goldfish in a shark tank.
Sarwar is an out and out yoon-yonist,
he is red,white and blue Westminster rules ya bas,
would rather see Scotland a burning wasteland under Tory control forever than have Scotland separate from his British Empire nightmare.
anyhoo,
sein as Sarwar is a toof doctor, does anyone know if they still put mercury in fillings and what happens to the mercury when people get cremated?
” Theresa May to call for Brexit transition talks next week “ – Financial Times
How can you consider what a transition arrangement would be when you don’t know what the final situation will be?
If common sense (and pressure from manufacturing, finance, agriculture, and academia) prevails and the UK aims to have single market access, then what is a transition period for?
Otherwise, the transition will be some sort of part way between where they are now, and where they plan to be. And where do they plan to be? Does May have any clue?
Carts and horses, again, I think.
This kind of reminds me of the Heydrich thing, and with Nana skiving this weekend, I’ll risk this:
https://www.opencanada.org/features/erasure-indigenous-thought-foreign-policy/
“The erasure of Indigenous thought in foreign policy”
Oh don’t fudge the issue, we all know she’s full of chocolatey goodness and very fat indeed. 😉
Another ripoff from Nana’s closely guarded hoard of links she shares with us
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ireland/2017-06-08/lessons-little-states
she’ll marbelise me when she gets back 🙁
Deforestation of the crap the Forestry Commission previously planted is a good thing. They are now replanting with better mix of native/broad leaf trees which does not leave the forest floor dead and stagnant. Future generations will benefit as will the environment.
Wood chip heating IMHO is a big scam but will not last long. Expensive to install (for average homeowner) but huge rewards selling excess to the grid. Businesses are running their boilers at full pelt during warmer weather with windows and doors open – (just to get their input to the grid) complete waste of energy.
Once our forests are clear of the crap wait and see the price of wood pellets escalate it will no longer be viable even with the grid subsidies (which are unfortunately guaranteed for X years)
@Shinty
I hope they are, that’s what I tell myself, we’ll get some mixed hardwood which is healthier and longerlasting.
OT
from my dedicated server webmin control panel: “System uptime 572 days, 2 hours, 24 minutes”. Shocking, simply shocking.
The most stupid people on the planet live in Scotland.
There will be many who will believe him.
I honestly hope he wins, I really do, he will be an absolute gift to independence. Even my SLab voting friends I speak to cant stand him. He’s seen to them as a slimly opportunist, but then again who isn’t in Scottish Labour?
He is as anti-establishment as the likes of JK Rowling, Alistair Darling and Richard Branson.
Rock says:
13 October, 2017 at 10:09 pm
He is as anti-establishment as the likes of JK Rowling, Alistair Darling and Richard Branson and you too Rock.
Saw this and thought of you Rock. So much for free speech in teamGB.
Northern Ireland
Woman could face hate crime prosecution over anti-DUP banner
DUP politician says swearing on banner Ellie Evans waved at Belfast Pride parade constitutes incitement to hatred
Ellie Evans said two PSNI detectives questioned her under caution. Photograph: Paul McErlane for the Guardian
Henry McDonald Ireland correspondent
Heedtracker @ 7.03 pm You spotted this = )
Adding to this well deserved laugh (Thank you Rev Stu) 🙂
Our very own wee Ian Murphy is busy throwing all his toys out his pram cos the Union ‘rigged the vote’ and his pal Anas didn’t get a look in.
Left Morningside’s darling with a red face I rather think.
Unite are not amused. Accuse Mr Red-Morninside of a smear campaign!
Dear Unite, that IS Ian Murray’s forte. Smearing.
Murray’s run out of stickers and candidates to smear so all that’s left is to attack his own. Oh dear oh dear.
He’s seen to them as a slimly opportunist, but then again who isn’t in Scottish Labour?
Uhm, er, erm, eh, well, eh…
The very worst has to be Flipper Darling and Bliar MacFastpiearm.
That pair have got to be in all Scottish history books in 2317, as our worst and contemporary Scottish rogues.
Flipper got a mention on BBC r4 terrible satire News Quiz show tonight, usual stuff, Scots are ranting thugs, haha.
But Sturgeon’s Strepsils gag really got up the noses of those tory beeb gimps. Its worth a listen if you want to hear angry beeb tories trying to not sound angry, on a comedy show too.
“The most stupid people on the planet live in Scotland.”
Well your the proof!
Conservatives hold Inverurie by-election by 500 votes on a 31% turnout.
GOTV
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-41607782
The most stupid people on the planet live in Scotland.
Clearly you need to travel more.
@ Heedtracker – I listened to the News Quiz. London fannies jeer at SNP conference and Nicola Sturgeon. What’s new?
Mark Steel was at least funny in his take-off of Paisley residents distancing themselves from Glasgow. But the rest of the panel, and the presenter, were the usual 10 a penny rent-a-jeer numpties we have come to expect.
There is something deeply dysfunctional about Oxbridge yoons.
” Jeremy Corbyn is to warn in a major speech as he claims the pro-Brexit wing of the Conservative party is actively seeking a no-deal outcome to turn the UK into a “deregulated tax haven”. “ – The Independent
Doh? Where has he been? Not exactly a revelation!
FFS, Of course that is their objective. Always has been.
‘The most stupid people on the planet live in Scotland.’
Rock posted that at 10.04.
It’s a remarkable statement, and worth noting – its the moment, the actual *instant* when a long-term WOS contributor expired.
Alas, and alack! ‘Rock’ is no more…
🙁 🙁 🙁
Aye, Robot
Alex Clark,
“Well your the proof!”
Except that unlike you I have never voted for Scottish Labour or been fooled by them.
Conservatives hold Inverurie by-election by 500 votes on a 31% turnout.
Oh to be an Inverurie tory and Brit with that result. Inverurie’s tory creeps might ask themselves why they think their tory Britain is worth anything at all really. At the very least the new by pass will make dodging them a lot easier.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/13/britain-cuts-children-austerity-families-in-care
There’s something anasty in the Scottish Labour woodshed.
(Cold Comfort Farm, I apologise)
Alex Clark (aka Thepnr) (21st July 2014 – Return of the living dead)
“I truly believe more than 50% of Labour voters will eventually vote Yes on the day. That will win the referendum for the Yes side.”
Well, they must have been pretty clever to vote No by your logic.
Ian Brotherhood,
“its the moment, the actual *instant* when a long-term WOS contributor expired.”
You do believe in coming back from the dead don’t you when you don’t succeed in blackmailing:
Ian Brotherhood,
11 February, 2017 at 12:59 am
“Rock and his supporters are – successfully – choking the life out of creative, informative discourse on this site.
No more appealing to Rev, or anyone else – I’m out.”
It’s still Friday 13th!
We’re getting messages from the grave!!
Rock (19th May – “Becoming the squirrel”):
“Unfortunately, more than 20% of the voting public in Scotland remains stupid enough to vote for Labour.”
Thepnr (aka Alex Clark),
“Just thought I should mention I think Labour in Scotland will be lucky if they get 15% of the vote in this GE. Hopefully less.”
schrodingers cat,
“full scot poll
SNP 42% (+1)
Conservatives 29% (+1)
Labour 19% (+1)
Liberal Democrats 6% (-1)”
Rock,
“I hope Thepnr is right and the poll is wrong.”
Mark Steel was at least funny in his take-off of Paisley residents distancing themselves from Glasgow. But the rest of the panel, and the presenter, were the usual 10 a penny rent-a-jeer numpties we have come to expect.
I really love satire, who doesn’t but that’s the point about BBC satire, there is none at all. They’ve either run out of Oxbridge talent completely or there never was any Oxbridge talent to start with.
Steel wasn’t funny tonight but he can be and he’s not Oxbridge. News Quiz used to be really funny too.
It just goes to show, three and half thousand million quid a year only buys you progs about cakes, total rip offs of US tv, and mountains and mountains of vote tory britnat propaganda.
It makes me long for a Scottish broadcaster all the more and when this does happen, its got have NO progs about cakes, or tattoos, or how to buy a run down house and do it up and then sell it for much more than you bought if for…
The Strepsil gag was really funny though. Bravo to whoever came up with it!
Wow…he actually has a file on yous that he can handpick comments from any period, place them in a current thread out of the context and time era that they were said. No one in Rock’s tiny brained universe can have a change of heart, he utilises posters’ past comments to somehow insinuate that because their position may have altered on any given subject that that will somehow undermine’s their credibility.
What he fails to realise is that we see it for what it is. A raving nutjob copying and pasting comments and using them as ammo to bully and intimidate posters on this site.
And that is the reality Rock. Snide, rotten to the core, and a guy with a big chip on his shoulder and who holds a grudge and feeds that grudge, clearly ‘daily’ by copying comments that he can attack said poster with in the future.
There is something seriously not right about this conduct on this site Rev. I wish to fuck you would address this stalking behaviour from him once and for all. It’s awful to have this weird guy stalking posters and willy nilly attacking them in this manner on a daily basis.
End.
Anyone who would like to know the pseudonyms of WOS-botherers should ask ‘Rock’ now, to give us the details, before he finally clocks-out from his duties here – he has files on all of us!
Seriously – he’s very particular about such stuff!
Intchya, Rock?
heedtracker @ 23:10,
Personally, I have long found those supposed “humourous” BBC panel shows lacking in anything except lame cynical whinging. Evidence of the deeply etiolated state of both humour and social consciousness in the members of the English Establishment.
Was it not Iannucci who said that satire is dead because politics in the UK is already beyond satire?
But still, as someone recently said, we really, really could use Spitting Image right now.
Tom
Pride has Sussex out the “Plan”
https://tompride.wordpress.com/2017/10/13/how-theresa-may-is-being-shepherded-to-a-hard-brexit-by-a-multibillionaire-dubai-based-new-zealand-fund-manager/
Sussex = Sussed bloody predictive text 🙁
The opposite of evolution:
Keir Hardie, Ramsay MacDonald (warning alarms ringing), John Smith (Lord Snooty), Donald Dewar (dreary ditto!), Henry McLeish (forgot him), Jack McConnell (what exactly do you do?), Wendy Alexander (drain off M8. tinkle), Johann Lamont (Comedy Curran’s pal), James Murphy (manly costumes model), Kezia Dugdale (doing a Jackie Bailey as we speak), Anas Sarwar/The Other Guy (QED).
galamcennalath says:
13 October, 2017 at 10:51 pm
” Jeremy Corbyn is to warn in a major speech as he claims the pro-Brexit wing of the Conservative party is actively seeking a no-deal outcome to turn the UK into a “deregulated tax haven”. “ – The Independent
Doh? Where has he been? Not exactly a revelation!
FFS, Of course that is their objective. Always has been.
……………………..
If the report on CH4 news tonight is correct then the process of deregulation has already started. According to the report rules relating to stock market listings are to be ‘relaxed’ to allow the Saudi Oil Company to be listed, or part of it anyway. Worth a lot of money – naturally.
Mike Cassidy at 1057 pm:
Scary to think that Dick Hawk-Monitor is alowed to visit Michel Barnier unsupervised.
Legerwood at 11.37 pm:
Give Corbyn a break! He’s been occupied trying to get the Shah of Iran extradited to Tehran.
heedtracker @ 10.33
But Sturgeon’s Strepsils gag really got up the noses of those tory beeb gimps. Its worth a listen if you want to hear angry beeb tories trying to not sound angry, on a comedy show too.
…………
Wonder what the reaction would have been if she had held up a packet of “Fisherman’s Friends Extra Strong Lozenges”?
Greannach says:
13 October, 2017 at 11:35 pm
The opposite of evolution
Pity James Kelly wasn’t standing for leadership or we might have found ‘the missing link’.
Hello Darlings – whats the topic for tonight cos lots of lovely new folk might well be around.
In ‘Leonard’s bid hit by local party backing opponent Sarwar’ in the National, take note of the following.
‘Sarwar got off to a poor start last month ….. but allies say he’s making progress due to policies announced this week, including a commitment to support permanent membership of the European single market and his pro-Union constitutional stance (as does Leonard).
A spokesman for Sarwar said, “Anas is the only candidate who has put forward radical new policies including a Scottish Child Tax Credit to lift 50,000 children out of poverty, using Holyrood’s powers to reverse Tory cuts to the sick and disabled and a guaranteed job, training place or education for every school leaver. He has also set out a clear position on permanent UK membership, which is a clear dividing line in this contest.”
This is what seemingly accounts for his anti-establishment stance. Sarwar is conning Labour supporters into thinking that he’s going to do something about Scotland being dragged out of the single market whilst his boss et al in London are committed to doing so.
Then he’s going to do something to help lift 50,000 children out of poverty whilst his family’s company has been making millions in profits, which includes Sarwar of course, by ripping their workers off (some with kids no doubt) and as his party at Westminster have supported Tory austerity cuts.
Holyrood’s powers? The powers that his party ensured would be critically limited. A guaranteed job? No mention of rate of pay? As to job, training and / or education for every school leaver well the SNP have that well in hand already as statistics show.
Instead of Sarwar, herald of the working classes, bequeathing 4 million to his kids he could have donated some of that money to charity, foodbanks or whatever. In fact he could probably lift 50,000 children out of poverty overnight by having a whip-round amongst his billionaire / millionaire friends, including his crony that has been defrauding HMRC, big time, as reported in the Herald.
Well I hope he does win and we go on to see Nicola make mincemeat out of him.
@Petra
I think he will win and I wish him the best of British 🙂
@ Lenny at 11:32pm …”Theresa May being sheparded to a hard Brexit….”
Interesting Lenny, especially in light of what we’ve heard about ‘dark money’, used to promote Brexit, being donated to the DUP in NIreland.
You can see why such people want to destroy the EU. MEGA BUCKS, trillions, to be made at our expense.
K1 Amen to that !! = )
Paula Rose 🙂 Hello Darling! Things that make us laugh. Mr Sarwar wins today =)
Petra @ 12.25 am
‘Well I hope he does win and we go on to see Nicola making mincemeat out of him.’ 🙂 Now THAT will be entertaining =)
I still believe in Karma, these rich barstewards that steal from the poor will get whats for them, If they would only feel the hurt they are doing. IF only; our world were ruled by the poor and not the rich, what a wonderful world it would be…..cue a song Cactus. 😉
Kezia to jump ship if Leonard wins
Ooohoohoo!
Worth reading.
http://thenational.scot/news/15596208.Wee_Ginger_Dug__Don_t_wait_for_permission_____here___s_what_we_must_do_NOW_to_fight_for_indy/
Having forked out £xx on on Apple device. Not going to fork out £xx amount on another, just to avoid their goolgegook. Only got a limited amount to spend keeping up there tax evaded profits. In fact as little as possible. That is their cunning plan manufacture rubbish. Then it goes obsolete far too quick. Everyone has to fork out for another. They make sure the older one does not work. Upgrading some systems but leaving others behind. The only choice to fork out again. These multibillionaires need their fix screwing others. While their devices are temporary attractions. Pay your taxes. You bunch of maniacs.
@Big Phil 1:51
“There’s enough money in the world for all the poor people, but there’s not enough money in the world for all the rich people”
To be fair it matters not a jot. Whichever wins the other will fade to obscurity, well maybe not Anas, he is the proverbial bad penny. They will last 1-2 years tops and the race for a new (leader) donkey will start again
#AnAss4Leader
http://www.theeuropean-magazine.com/jean-claude-juncker–2/12771-state-of-the-union-jean-claude-junckers-address
“I also believe that, over the months to come, we should involve national Parliaments and civil society at national, regional and local level more in the work on the future of Europe. Over the last three years, Members of the Commission have visited national Parliaments more than 650 times. They also debated in more than 300 interactive Citizens’ Dialogues in more than 80 cities and towns across 27 Member States. But we can still do more. This is why I support President Macron’s idea of organising democratic conventions across Europe in 2018”…
I too support President Macron’s idea of democratic conventions across Europe. What are the chances of getting one of such conventions set up in Scotland? Let’s go for it. A massive convention. Something along the lines of the Festival of Journalism I have mentioned repeatedly, which brings the EU debate, EU leaders and personalities, and European news media to Scotland so we have a chance to circumvent the rancid UK media and control our own narrative in the months before our Nation’s fate is decided…
J C Juncker makes a long and wide ranging speech full of aspirations for progress. He barely mentions Brexit at all. It is only the UK who is vexed by Brexit. Europe already has its eyes on other things. Brexit is just some unpleasantness to be navigated. I hope with all my heart that Scotland remains on board and engaged with the great European project, because otherwise we are part of the UK project for isolation and economic divergence.
It’s not about the economic issues, although they are very important, it’s the sense I have that the EU is only just getting started. In terms of our collective internationalism, this family of European nations has only just begun. I am sick and tired of our cynical poor excuse for media which sees every facet of European success as a threat.
It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we seek European citizenship. We are kindred, and Scotland belongs there.
If we commit ourselves to Europe, they will help us to grow and be wealthy in all things, not just money, but culture, language, diet, welfare, humanity and wellbeing. The Brexit reasons for leaving the EU are toxic, narrow minded, insular and xenophobic.
Scotland will flourish and thrive once free and sovereign in Europe, or we shall suffocate and stagnate, imprisoned in a joyless, colourless, United Kingdom, doped to eyeballs on BBC miasma and 19th Century values.
“Nae Rubens ee day?”
In the words of the Rev
“Slacker Cairns on hols again”. Smiley thing
No doubt next week will be another beaut.
Enjoy yer hols Chris.
Ken500 says:
14 October, 2017 at 7:25 am
“Having forked out £xx on on Apple device. Not going to fork out £xx amount on another, just to avoid their goolgegook. Only got a limited amount to spend keeping up there tax evaded profits. In fact as little as possible. That is their cunning plan manufacture rubbish. Then it goes obsolete far too quick. Everyone has to fork out for another. They make sure the older one does not work. Upgrading some systems but leaving others behind. The only choice to fork out again. These multibillionaires need their fix screwing others. While their devices are temporary attractions. Pay your taxes. You bunch of maniacs.”
I find it odd that people who are independence and freedom minded such as posters on here choose to to be manipulated and incarcerated inside the jail that is Apples ecosystem
free yourselves
Petra says:
13 October, 2017 at 4:18 pm
Ooops that didn’t work! Check out the article / video.
https://jenkers.com/en#!t=12191830
———————————————————-
Can a man who has clearly divided loyalties, his heart is in Pakistan (or so it appears from the link) and his loyalties lie with self, then Labour, then Westminster, ever do justice to serving Scotland and its people with 100% of his focus and efforts?
Probably not. It all depends on how serious he is about doing his best for the people of Scotland and not Self, Party, Westminster (England) and Lahore (Pakistan) above Scotland and its people. He refered to those in Pakistan as his brothers, not brothers and sisters, so maybe a wee bit of misogyny? It might be a cultural thing in the expat Pakistani community to only refer to men, I don’t know.
More news from perfidious Albion.
“James Chapman, a former aide to David Davis, the Brexit Secretary, claimed the department had undertaken such analysis, which showed Scotland and the North-East of England would be worst hit by leaving the EU”.
@Mark Poster
Apparently there are 50 reports being kept secret regarding the impact of Brexaster.
http://archive.is/m6RBJ
Hope Davis is forced to release, especially the Scotland one,
@ Lenny Hartley. 11.32pm
Thanks for that link.
I have been reading the name Legatum for weeks on Twitter, so had a rough idea but that link provides the ties and motivation.
Absolutely disgusting. Just so sickened at the way things are going.
Even if we get our independence, it’s not in our interests to Border some kind of 3rd world country, apart from the human misery.
“…analysis, which showed Scotland and the North-East of England would be worst hit by leaving the EU”.
Another Mad Tory reason for Treeza going for her flounce out.
Deeply concerned about Ian Brotherhood’s equation of Richard Leonard with Kenneth Williams. Stick a pair on National Healths on Tricky Dicky and I reckon he could be the new Charles Hawtrey.
In any case, what larks when either Anas or TD gets gralloched weekly at FMQs by Nicola, and all air-brushed out by BBC Shortbread.
Tackety Beets: groovy gravatar. New? The Lord Lyon will be impressed!
I wonder if the ’50 secret reports’ have the name McCrone anywhere about them, and will it be another thirty year wait for release??
Truly perfidious albion, imho!
Valerie says:
Yes, just read that link from Lenny Hartley.
That is what Brexit has always been all about. It’s why UKIP was created and promoted. It’s why UKIP has now been swallowed into the Tory party.
“… get more lucrative UK government contracts unhindered by those pesky EU regulations on environmental protection and workplace rights such as rules relating to hazardous waste and pollution and statutory rights such as maternity and sickness leave, minimum wages etc etc “
To get the notion of Brexit into popular thinking, it has been promoted as being about “taking back control” and “controlling immigration” and millions of sad suckers have fallen for it.
IF, by some unlikely chance, the UK ends up with a soft Brexit, Norway style for instance, then this is completely at odds with what the Brexiteers actually want. The pressure will continue on May et al to make sure they get the hard Brexit they dream of.
And as you say, even after Indy, we will have a madhouse on our border!
To get the News in Scotland, I use the following rule.
From the headlines I read the complete opposite, that way it will be more correct than not.
Try this out with my made up headlines, clue only one is correct. Can I now work in the media in Scotland.
Scotland does not want independence, Scotland is running out of oil, Scotland heath care bad, Vote YES.
@Breeks 08.17
Superb commentary on Europe.
Once the Britnats are out Europe shall thrive. They have been totally uncooperative in all things European…. the nature of the beast.
@Ian Brotherhood says: 13 October, 2017 at 8:06 pm:
“but I really wouldn’t want to finger anyone like that.”
Me neither – not even with someone else’s finger.
What is interesting about the 50 secret reports on the effects of Brexit, and the new ‘suggestion’ that Scotland and the NE England would be worst hit is the complete silence from the Civil Service who compile these reports.
If someone don’t leak them then they are all complicit in the result. Ministers don’t do all this themselves.
SNP MPs in Westminster and Holyrood MSPs must keep hammering away at Westminster’s refusal to publish these findings about the detrimental effect Westminster’s brexit will have on Scotland.
Then again what’s to stop britnat Westminster from deliberately falsifying these figures to make brexit look less bad? It’s not as if they’ve never done that before.
Either way it’s more proof of britnat scumdumbery.
Lenny Hartley, Valerie…the deregulation has already begun. Channel 4 news last night reporting how FCA have bent the rules to allow Saudi oil company Aramco onto the London stock exchange. The company has *assets* of £1.5Trillion. Sorry I can’t provide a link, you can watch the article on CH4 website.
O/T.
AUOB.
I’m looking forward to Scotland’s Independence movement bringing Glasgow’s George square and surrounding streets to a standstill after Marching for Independence in our Tens or even Hundreds of Thousands on the 5th May next year…
Get that date in your diaries, the Rally will go ahead with or without GCC permissions .
@Ronnie Anderson –
Noted!
😉
Every one of us has been stomped on by London all of our lives and they’re still doing it, but Scotland has gotten so used to complaining then shrugging it’s shoulders and blaming the nearest politician for the problem then voting in another one of exactly the same ilk as the last one
The SNP are now at the stage where they almost have to spread gold on the streets to get folks attention and even then the apathy (a force which is strong in Scotland) continues until the point where time, being the friend of Westminster might see a return to Scotlands old habit of voting in the next guy who was the original cause of the original misery
And round we go again
Nicola Sturgeon and her team can’t run the country for everybody and protest against the half who don’t vote for her at the same time
I’ll do the old Scottish mantra *Sumdys goaty dae sumthin*
We need a Yes movement leader and coordinator and we need that person yesterday, a media savvy strong willed known person willing to step in and lead the campaign because left to it’s own devices the movement will be in too many little pieces instead of one big driving force impossible to ignore
I’m going to be old fashioned and say that person must be a respected surprise to the opposition and as non political as possible with just one focus, to wake and shake the people of Scotland up and drive home the importance and
The reason and imperative of Independence
” David Davis’s department has refused to say whether it has analysed the impact of Brexit on Britain’s regions because doing so could provoke a “reactionary” response that could damage the economy. “
That, to me, suggests the analysis looks bad if simply a reaction/response to it could precipitate damage.
http://archive.is/ZjL2T
All sorts of Brexit information and reports dribbling out now, or in some cases being kept secret.
Should all of this not been collated and released BEFORE EURef so voters could have made an informed decision!?
John Dickson @ 07:58,
Yes, I wonder about that too. It’s not as though they’ve got a huge number of MSPs to get through anyway. Eventually they’ll end up with James Kelly and by then everyone and their dog will know that it’s all over for NorthBritLab.
Their problem isn’t in their leader, really, it’s in their blind dogmatic opposition to independence. (Well, even to any significant degree of autonomy.) And the Tories do that thing better.
Agree with Dr Jim. The person to lead the Yes campaign must also be a real orator(not just a good speaker), have leadership qualities and show unwavering belief in independence. A sort of Billy Graham type without the religion or dare I say it a Tony Blair type without the baggage.
Unfortunately I cannot think of anyone on the current scene who has these qualities and would be listened to by all sides.
Surely that roaster Dr Fox is going to make everything alright?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-no-deal-sir-martin-donnelly-eu-theresa-may-government-economy-single-market-bad-deal-a8000186.html
Oh no, another terrible Scottish burden of natural resources being worth rather a lot. Pool and share, as the yoons like to say.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-12/groundhog-day-in-london-as-oil-stock-soars-on-north-sea-reserves
“The person leading a Yes campaign must be a real orator not just a good speaker.”
Not necessarily so.
I half-agree. What the good speaker needs (see my essay here on Sturgeon) is a good speech doctor who can compose memorable phrases that hold meaning for us all and insert them into the speaker’s text. Although someone who has the ability to do both is the ideal. But we have had decades of our best going south.
Your weekend Reading:
Sturgeon hits the ground running: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-l8F
Car buyers cheated again: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-lbL
Footsoldier @ 11:37,
Actually, I believe the very person you want is Jeane Freeman.
Her only disadvantage is that she is now a politician, and currently a government minister piloting through a major welfare reform. (But that presumably won’t last for ever.)
Brian Cox? World-famous actor. Dundonian. Former Labour supporter. Powerful presence.
I don’t know about his tax situation though. Don’t know if he’s still on voters’ roll. [These could be fixed.]
The only country in the entire world claiming Brexit is good is England and yet in Scotland where we have the option NOT to do it folk are saying *Eh well mibbees eh it’ll be awright let’s wait and see eh*
Re sentence 1: The only country in the entire world
Am I facing the right way when I say this stuff, is Scotland too busy looking at their phones while they’re driving, do we have to put it on dominoes pizzas as a topping so’s NO voters’ll notice
Here’s an idea we’ve got some football clubs who aren’t bampots gonnae just put up some advertising banners or print it on yer tickets *Brexit is nuts yer bein conned* *AGAIN*
Bus companies, get it on the side of yer buses
SNP councils pit it on bus shelters
Even though we know Unionist parties have said they’re against Brexit too they’ll do nuthin to help Scotland because their allegiances lie elsewhere, along with their careers
This can’t be against the law surely because it’s supposed to be a constitutional issue not a party political one
Print posters and stick them in yer windae *Brexit is nuts*
NO voters, stop blaming Nicola Sturgeon for stuff your own party leaders campaigned along side her for and voted against just like her
The FM didnae cause and disnae want Brexit and some of you should remember that you didnae want it either, so she’s trying to do what you people voted for for pity’s sake
Ach!
…………
“David Davis’s department has refused to say whether it has analysed the impact of Brexit on Britain’s regions because doing so could provoke a “reactionary” response that could CAUSE INDEPENDENCE FOR SCOTLAND.
………..
There, fixed it…!
More info from Molly Scott Cato, Green MEP, on the secret reports and how they plan to force their release …
(Independent doesn’t archive well. Some of the text near the top, most near bottom. All text is there. )
http://archive.is/IlSIG
geeo says:
This is the Brexit elephant in the room.
Crap Brexit -> IndyRef2 -> NO UK
Everyone knows it, even if the Yoonery won’t openly admit it.
What it comes down to is …. Are they feeling lucky? Just how much risk with their beloved UKOK are they willing to take with Brexit? The chances of the UK surviving a hard/no-deal Brexit seem poor.
@Footsoldier says: 14 October, 2017 at 11:37 am:
“Agree with Dr Jim. The person to lead the Yes campaign must also be”
A real orator(not just a good speaker): Check and ticked.
Have leadership qualities and show unwavering belief in independence: Check and ticked.
A sort of Billy Graham type without the religion or dare I say it a Tony Blair type without the baggage:Check and ticked.
Unfortunately I cannot think of anyone on the current scene who has these qualities:
Now correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t there one of those already?
Isn’t she a weel kent person?
Has she not just delivered a really inspirational speech to a very large live audience and to an even larger one on-line?
Has she not also made a great many such inspirational speeches?
I believe they call her the First Minister and I believe her name is Nicola Sturgeon.
That suggests to me that the only reason we are not already an independent nation is NOT because of her inspirational qualities but in spite of them.
Let us not put the cairt afore the cuddy.
The problem of not gaining independence is obviously not due to the actual message nor to its quality of delivery.
It lies in the many artificial restrictions deliberately placed upon the messages being propagation by a bought and paid for corrupt Westminster media that Westminster has the temerity to actually charge a licence fee for. Thus they make unaware and ignorant Scottish tax payers pay to have such vile propaganda piped directly into their homes where it is absorbed, by an often all too willing unionist minded, low mentality, section of the electorate.
Is there another country in the World, besides North Korea, that would put up with such treatment?
Even in the case of North Korea the people have a ready excuse as there is much openly applied force by the North Korean dictatorship and very large military.
What then is Scotland’s excuse?
“Where ignorance is bliss, ‘Tis folly to be wise.”
Thomas Grey – English Poet, (Born December 26, 1716 – died June 30, 1771).
Grouse beater
Tried to leave a comment on your article, ‘Sturgeon hits the ground running’, but for some reason it wouldn’t post, although I used my Facebook account.
The comment was:
Mhairi Black was correct in her assessment of Corbyn. It should be remembered that a politician doesn’t survive in the main parties in Westminster by being radical.
And I don’t want to stay joined to a country that would produce Brexit, no matter what ‘deal’ is produced.
And I don’t want to be a ‘second hand country’ run by somebody else as an afterthought, and a resource of looted revenue and people.
@galamcennalath
I just can’t get my head around what is going on in May, Johnson, Fox and Davis’s minds. They KNOW what the effect of Brexit will be to the UK economy. The studies they refuse to release will show this and it cannot be good.
I can only draw the conclusion that they’re all mental cases.
galamcennalath @ 12:52,
That’s a great initiative. I can’t say how likely it is to get anywhere, but at least it brings the issue right up there into the public’s attention.
I just wish the SG was more proactive along such lines. Getting onto the front foot far more.
http://www.sociologyguide.com/social-change/factors-of-change.php
the times
mr. £2.75 taxi , miles briggs – rent a quote today
Several SNP ministers were picked up from the party’s manifesto launch in Perth on May 30 in a publicly funded motorcade. The ministerial code states that “ministers must not use public resources for party political purposes”.
Critics said the use of the fleet, which costs the taxpayer £1 million a year, was a breach of the rules. Scottish Labour is calling for an investigation.
Miles Briggs, Conservative MSP, said: “The public will be deeply uncomfortable at the idea of eight ministers swanning out of a party political event and into a taxpayer-funded car.” A government spokeswoman said: “[They] travelled to a variety of ministerial engagements.”
Would Angus Robertson not make a good leader of Yes campaign,
well respected even by yoons,
calm under yoon media interrogation,
we need someone to persuade 6% soft No`s someone with gravitas,
out of a job,
perfect fit.
Brain Powel: “The comment was…”
Sorry you couldn’t manage to get your comments to go through. I hope you’re not the general rule – I enjoy replies. Try again. I’d like to find out the problem.
With what you post here, yes, I agree wholeheartedly. And the English I meet these days, two Geordie police officers and one AA car relay driver yesterday, also agree.
Actually, Brian, it has been published.
Alex Clark says:
Fox would be elated by a very hard Brexit. So he’s a mental case for sure.
The other three? What is it they actually want from Brexit, it’s hard to make out?
If they do want no deal or controlled hard exit, then they must be mental!
Every indication is that full single market and customs union are out for this group of Tories. The EU say the five aspects of the single market cannot be cherry picked – I believe they will stick with that line. The EU cannot allow the UK to leave under favourable circumstances. However, it is possible some members of the Tory government don’t believe this and hold out hope that they will be free market access with few obligations. IMO that makes them incompetently naive rather than mental!
Alex Clark says @ 14 October, 2017 at 1:23 pm
Yes they have got themselves in a situation where they are completely out of their depth but I’m not sure describing them as mental cases is correct.
There may be the reason that they are desperately clinging onto the only career available to them and will do anything to keep that, not to mention exiting with enough credibility for their next one i.e. House of Lords, private sector directorships as well as the usual speech circuit.
There is also the possibility, although can never be confirmed, that they or their partners have investments that benefits from a hard Brexit?
@Pacman
Maybe “mental cases” was a bit harsh. Not as harsh though as how the Tories treat ordinary mortals.
Lizard people from another planet, no compassion, no thoughts on the damage they do with their policies that result in suicide by those told they are fit to work or disabled being evicted because they have an empty bedroom and can’t afford the rent.
This government is the most despicable I’ve ever known and deserve all the pelters they get.
Yes, I agree. We need a formal civil leadership for the YES movement at this point. A board of well known and respected faces as leadership to provide direction and at its head not just a good speaker. Not just a good orator, but a thinker. Someone respected in both public and political life, not just for their words and presence, but for their actions and intelligence. They’re going to have to stand toe to toe with the UK’s media and politicians and that’s no small task, but that is why a board and not just an individual.
They’ll need serious weight back up from all walks of public life to do the job justice.
A big ask for a big job.
The most obvious problem with contemporary British nationalism, apart from the democratic deficit that Scotland experiences as a result the Acts of Union, is the paradigm of neo-liberal political economy adopted by Westminster and Whitehall.
http://www.futurelens.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Changing-Cultural-Values.pdf
re yes leader
I’m not sure why we need a leader or how he/she could be chosen.
see the latest attempt (sic) floundering due to lack of support.
the idea that the various yes/indy groups will all join hands and sing kumbaya is for the birds
I reckon the attitude we are seeing re. Brexit, has a lot to do with “post-colonial melancholia” and the ethnocentric sense of exceptionalism embedded in British culture.
https://politicsandculture.org/2009/10/02/theresa-enright-postcolonial-melancholia/
Macart says:
… and others
In order to back foot the Yoon media, IMO YES2 should be disconnected from the SNP, be a ‘board’ as you suggest, and not rely on one figure head.
It is crucial to move the debate away from past Scottish Government / SNP performance.
A board of six men and six women, with one or two from the SNP and one from the Greens. And perhaps a joint chair with one man, one woman. Maybe even rotate the chair. Everyone savvy with the media. Everyone articulate, calm, and presentable. Several members from the online community. Business, academia, medicine – a wide civic cross section.
Trying to avoid same-old would be good. It shouldn’t be a rerun of IndyRef1.
Angus Robertson good. Lesley Riddoch good. Jean Freeman good. Paul Kavanagh good.
Alex Clark @ 14 October, 2017 at 2:17 pm
‘Mental case’ to me is those individuals down the local boozer, the only thing in their lives is booze, causing mayhem and not caring of the implications of their actions. It’s caused mostly by lack of opportunities, to a point not afforded to them due to circumstances but mostly caused by their own shall she say volatile personalities.
That doesn’t apply to Tories, especially to the ones you described. They got to the positions they in because they are intelligent, driven, ruthless, and fully aware of what they are doing. Of course it does help for them to be brought up and continue to live in a world that never experiences recession, the insecurity and lack of control over your future where you could be one step from the street.
As the saying goes, Cui bono? or Who benefits? There is no way that it can be proved until a future date but there is no doubt they know fully what they are doing and stand to benefit from it, even though it is disastrous for the rest of us.
“Great orator required”. Further to the responses to my earlier suggestion for heading up the independence campaign, various names were suggested including the First Minister but she has baggage, she leads the SNP. Sure I heard her speech at conference earlier this week but no doubt how good she and other speakers are, they remain good speakers not great orators. At the 2014 referendum, Blair Jenkins was quite a good speaker but not at all forceful in his delivery and certainly not a great orator.
Jeane Freeman had great potential but she too now has baggage being an SNP minister.
Looking at the great orators of history, they all had one thing in common; their vision and self-belief. Once this “great orator” is found, he or she can sell the message and the SNP can be the vehicle to deliver it.
There is however one problem about great orators, their single-mindedness tends to make them a pain in the neck.
schrodingers cat says:
14 October, 2017 at 2:46 pm
re yes leader
“I’m not sure why we need a leader or how he/she could be chosen.
see the latest attempt (sic) floundering due to lack of support.
the idea that the various yes/indy groups will all join hands and sing kumbaya is for the birds”
Ok let’s see if I’ve got this right. You appear to be suggesting that there’s no chance of the Yes movement ever being able to unify sufficiently in order to use its not inconsiderable but currently dormant clout to focus on and spread the facts about Scotland’s true plight in the union to the wider public.
Ok maybe I’ll follow your advice and just give up.
clipper
no, once indyref2 is announced, these groups will organise themselves, same as last time and now.
no one is giving up, i merely asked what such a leader is for?
why do we need one and how would we go about choosing one?
clipper
“there’s no chance of the Yes movement ever being able to unify sufficiently in order to use its not inconsiderable but currently dormant clout to focus on and spread the facts about Scotland’s true plight in the union to the wider public.”
the yes movement already does spread the issue to the wider public, why would electing a leader change that? why do we need a leader to do what we already do?
i seem to remember blair jenkins saying in 2013 that he had lost control of the yes movement, it had a power of its own.
thats because it is a true grass roots movement
Re. singing kumbaya around the Yes campfires.
http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=kt8t1nd07c&chunk.id=ss1.09&toc.id=ch02&brand=ucpress
Re YES spokes persons.
Mahri Black, Alex Salmond and Johanna Cherry.
Passion experience and intellect, with a bit of humour thrown in. What a force?!
And there’s the difference between England and Scotland
In England they could put up a plate of soup as a leader and the whole of England would get behind that plate of soup and go to war for it
In Scotland we argue about the process of what flavour of person we might like and by then the English plate of soup wins
There’s definitely some benefit in being stupid look how well England does
The keep beating us don’t they and we’re supposed to be smarter than them
Check what England’s got as leaders, A refugee woman from a Macbeth play and a verging on senility Che Guevara Prosecco drinker, and both on record as gigantic obvious proven incompetent liars that the rest of the world laughs at
and yet we can’t wipe the floor with this garbage?
Something smells fishy in the state of Scotland
Quick question, why wasn’t Angus Robertson made a Privy councillor when he was in charge and why and when did we adopt the policy of accepting this dubious honour anyway that was only previously forced upon our First Ministers in post and not group leaders
CameronB Brodie
there is a difference in what i believe scotland could do once independent and the tactics i believe we should use to win indyref2. eg, i am a big eu supporter but believe we should tie efta membership to indyref2, not eu membership
also, it is said that humans only use a ninth of their brain’s capacity…….i wonder what we do with the other third? 🙂
Footsoldier says:
Jeane Freeman had great potential but she too now has baggage being an SNP minister.
—————-
jeanne gave brillo a real roasting on the daily politics, the best performance during indyref1. she wasnt part of yes scotland, she was representing WFI
with or without a yes2 leader/group, people will come forward to promote yes during indyref2, indeed, they already do
What frogesque says!
@Dr Jim
Angus Robertson was made a privy councillor in Sep 2015.
schrodingers cat
That would be telling. 😉
Seriously though, differential consciousness is a powerful and healthy disposition that’s kind of suited to our cause.
Humans use 10% of brain capacity at any one time not a fixed portion of the brain with the rest dormant
Strangely enough dolphins us as near as can be assessed 11% and the only animal which exceeds us
Maybe we should have a dolphin in charge of the Yes movement
they’re friendly streamlined efficient and very focussed and the most excellent communicators on the planet
And you never see them disagree in public
Robert Peffers @1.09 and others – not aimed at anyone just setting out my views on the idea
Re person to lead the Indy 2 campaign.
I totally agree that we have someone – i.e. Nicola Sturgeon who ticks all the boxes to lead us into the next referendum but she herself has told us- the people – to get on with the cause; effectively while she gets on with government and with building the foundations of our future independent nation i.e. the investment bank, the new power company.
I think that the time has come where there has to be a two-pronged attack – if for no other reason than to confuse ‘ the enemy’.
Just now, if it is all led by the SNP then there is only one body responsible for events and they have to take ALL the flack. Net result is that for even a small matter, Unionists can quickly escalate their grievance into a full on chastisement of the Scottish Government and effectively double their effect.
If we have more than one target, our Government can get on with governing, whilst the separate ‘Independence Committee’ can also get on with their agenda but Unionist will have to think about which of us they mean to attack, effectively weakening their blows.
E.g.If a business or company was hesitating to invest, out of fear for Indy, they can blame the Indy movement for causing the uncertainty but they can’t then turn round and trash the Scottish Government for creating that situation without it seeming like they have an obvious agenda. ( which we know they have! ). If the Scottish Government concentrates on promoting Indy that will unleash a ferocious attack from the MSM and Unionists and they will be accused of ignoring all else before the altar of independence.
We would effectively be providing a decoy but at the same time building momentum within the people so that when the FM thinks the time is right, she can discuss the referendum with WM and show that it is also the clear will of the people – despite what tRuthless whispers in Treesa’s ear. Let’s not forget, there are people out there who want Indy but are put off by the SNP so it could be productive to build the Indy movement as cross party- after all , post Indy will be a completely new scene.
Consider the way the SNP dealt with the fracking issue. Initially they chose a moratorium since to legislate against fracking would have left them open to a challenge in the courts and possible defeat, paving the way for all-out fracking.
Likewise with Indy- following on from the GE in June, Nicola and her team have been quietly going about the business of running Scotland and shoring things up against the Brexit cock-up which is careering towards us. The ‘opposition’ is confused because the SNP seems to have cooled down over indy leaving them to have to think about how they can bash Scotland since they can’t just jump into ‘Project Fear 2’ without it seeming too obvious.
I posted on this website shortly after the GE that a possible way forward now was to use the talent of all the SNP MP’s who had lost their seats, Angus, Tasmina, Patrick Grady , Alex Salmond and others (who might have time on their hands) to come together and lead a separate flank into the battle or Indy and was roundly chased for undermining the SNP.
I really don’t see this as undermining the SNP, and I speak as a member. I think the time is now to build the momentum within the people. We will not have much time to campaign when the actual call comes and we need to be spreading the truth now to counteract the mass of lies being spouted through all the media.
Apologies for such a long post but I really think this is the way forward.
@yesindyref2
I stand most humbly corrected and consider myself thick for not knowing that
I thank you
So is Ian Blackford a privy counsellor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Privy_Counsellors_(1952%E2%80%93present)
Dr Jim says:
Maybe we should have a dolphin in charge of the Yes movement
——————–
that gets my vote, how about a new slogan?
“so long and thanks for all the fish” 🙂
I see (in the National) that Ben MacPherson SNP has challenged (one of many people to do so over the years) Hammond to scrap the discriminatory Scottish VAT charges of £35 million a year, backdated of course to around £140 million. This comes after Westminster changed the rules to allow Highways England and Academy schools to reclaim their VAT bills. Removing the charge would allow Police Scotland to cover its entire £21.1m deficit – and leave some cash to spare.
The decision made by the Tories leaves our emergency services at a real disadvantage. Strange don’t you think that while T May bleats on about the security of the country she’s happy to see us out on a limb, no doubt raging that as she’s cut 20,000 + jobs in England Nicola has managed to maintain numbers. Just another example of them not giving a sh*t about the Scots.
Seemingly the 13 Tory MPS have also just written to Hammond. Will we find that this will be resolved now, in the near future, with Davidson taking the credit? See what the Mooth can do versus the SNP?
@Dr Jim
I used to think it was a privileged position but then they appointed Ruth Davidson as one 🙂
Alas mr Sarwar, you are so establishment, the old, decaying, corrupt, Scotland betraying one.
Alex Clark says:
14 October, 2017 at 1:23 pm
@galamcennalath
‘I just can’t get my head around what is going on in May, Johnson, Fox and Davis’s minds. They KNOW what the effect of Brexit will be to the UK economy. The studies they refuse to release will show this and it cannot be good.’
They are what I would call neo con Anglo Nationalists.
When Mrs May said ‘Britain has never felt part of the EU’ in Florence she was talking about they and their ilk.
Euro and Xenophobic,they can still get even richer by deregulating UK and allowing US companies free access(Liam Fox/Atlantic Bridge etc).
Just some corrupt politicians who can get rich while their country burns.
Fraid I don’t agree on Sturgeon as heid bummer for Indyref2. If she wasn’t the FM or a politician then she would be excellent. Gramsci said that for revolution to succeed it had to be driven from the grassroutes not the top of the pyramid down. Make no mistake if we are to win Indyref2 it has to be a peacefull revolution. Somebody what Sillars was 30 years ok would be ideal, pity Sheridan has picked up so much baggage or maybe that is why he has picked up so much baggage.
I think that The Wee Ginger Dug can inspire and is a good public speaker , but for sure it needs to be driven from the Grass Routes.
With news of Scotland been worst hit via Brexit suddenly Ms Davidson’s RECENT very very very late intervention on her concerns re Brexit now makes such political sense as to why she chose to break ranks with HQ on this.
Seems to me she knew fine well that this Brexit shit was going to hit the fan harder in the direction of Scotland and she was trying to ensure she would be protected by coming out very very very late to err on caution.
Shut…stable..door..after…horse…bolted…springs to mind.
However she is very much tarnished as tis her party running the Brexit circus , she supported Brexit after result last June and she actively prevented Scotland from achieving an escape route from the disaster that is Brexit by siding with her party in seemingly DENYING Scotland another Indy vote….in other words ensuring we suffer the consequences of her party’s poor political decisions, planning and negotiation skills…which has resulted in Scotland sharing the burden of Brexit thanks to her allegiance to the Union.
It would seem that the Tories, with Brexit, have unleashed a beast in some citizens darn sarf and that beast is now seemingly uncontrollable . It is very very territorial and insatiable in it’s quest for total control in getting it’s country back??? …ironically the Tories just cannot seem to quell the beasts rage and impatience for immediate action. Well the Tories are certainly reaping what they have sown are they not…hell mend them.
Confucius said ” Ask an idiot a question and get an idiotic answer”………….. seems apt under the circumstances.I now laugh whenever I hear certain Brexiteers state they KNEW what they were voting for when they voted leave….best to laugh as one cannot argue or reason with an idiot.
I say let them have their Brexit because once they are truly out then that leaves the Tory party exposed to the reality of not having the EU scapegoat to blame..and for the the true realities, post Brexit, of BritNats NOT being protected by EU laws and investment, other countries potentially taking advantage of BritNat land via shit trade deals, the reality of an unleashed Tory government and thus Brexit junkies then having to just suck it up and deal with it.
Perhaps then eventually the penny MAY drop and ‘Leavers’ will learn…the hard way…that ..if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it….sure that penny has now dropped for many a Tory Lol Lol.
Sick I am of all this shit…..same arguments over and over …like being in a feckin time machine with this never feckin ending constitutional argument that we should have won long long ago ….and if Brexit don’t convince some Indy doubters then feck knows what will.
Lead…Horse…water…can’t….make….drink….now that most definitely springs to mind for proud Scots Buts !
Independence or Brexit…..seems a feckin easy choice to me !!!
@ Meg at 4:53pm …..
Spot on Meg. Excellent post however I don’t know about prior SNP politicians fronting the movement. Basically back to SNP again which many wouldn’t be happy about and could compromise the party.
I reckon we need an umbrella group like the Scottish Independence Convention (SIC) to lead the way with all Yes groups, key individuals such as our online bloggers, supporters of independence and former politicians of all parties being members. It would seem that that’s what they’re attempting to do right now. The leader, IMO, should not be a former politician, rather someone like Craig Murray or Alan Bissett.
A Tommy Sheridan type would have been ideal but the Establishment has made sure he’s been sent into ‘exile.’ I don’t know all of the ins and outs of that case other than someone made sure he was ‘shut up.’ His fault? No idea but just using him as an example.
Meanwhile we should all be targeting, bombarding, the BBC (and STV) even although we know they are inclined not to listen, lol. Send them copies of links such as from Talking up Scotland and ask why they’re not informing the Scots. Ask why we’re having to find true data online. Who knows it might make a ‘dent.’
We also need Yes premises in every City, town and village in Scotland with at the very least informative data stuck in the windows. I say that because I was talking to a couple of Tories recently who didn’t have a clue. Said they love Scotland (were genuine) and are trying to save it from people like me who don’t have a clue, lol. After half an hour or so it looked as though they were having a wee rethink and went off with a list of sites / videos to check out.
Alex Clark says:
14 October, 2017 at 1:23 pm
@galamcennalath
I just can’t get my head around what is going on in May, Johnson, Fox and Davis’s minds. They KNOW what the effect of Brexit will be to the UK economy. The studies they refuse to release will show this and it cannot be good.
If I had to venture an opinion, I would suggest May and her whole cabinet know exactly what a clusterfeck Brexit is going to be, but they are playing for time, and trying to hold their world together or lose it big time in a dangerous whirlpool of panic and acrimony.
I see real fear in their words and actions that in Britain, they have a tiger by the tail. Holding on is a very dangerous place to be, but letting go is even worse.
Whatever happens on Brexit Day +1, there is going to be a frightened and angry population looking for somebody to blame, rubbing shoulders in the same streets as the knuckle dragging bigots and idiot Brexiteers looking for somebody to blame and turn on for not managing Brexit properly with enough vigour and BritNat gumption. (That could be us getting the blame by the way. Not for causing Brexit but for spoiling it)…
The UK is on the brink of crisis, and has nothing in the kitty to pay for any containment. Army recruitment is difficult, police numbers are down and so is their moral. If public confidence collapses, and it easily could, the £ will bomb, inflation and tariffs will threaten food, fuel, and energy prices. The public will become hungry, cold and immobilised in increasing numbers, and the only mechanism to counter inflationary pressures is a rise in interest rates. A rise in interest rates however means the cost of borrowing increases, with both the population and economy is already mired in debts it can hardly manage with unprecedented low interest rates. Anarchy is such an immotive word but…
I expect the Government is already preparing a major realignment of the UK’s global standing, and its not a positive realignment. House prices will collapse. Notional wealth on paper will become relative. The rich will still be rich, but only while they stay in the UK. Their money might travel but a lot of their wealth won’t. The poor and needy however are often on the breadline already, and there isn’t any fat to trim from their lifestyle.
The UK will be staring down the barrel of 20 years of economic collapse, recession, stagnation, and minuscule economic growth just like Japan in the 1980’s. However even in its dark days, Japan’s GDP in crisis was relative, but still outperforming GDP in the West. The UK has no comparable manufacturing basis to weather a similar storm like the Japanese Corporations.
The “money” will mostly leave the UK, but only after an initial readjustment as the maggots and parasites of economic depression make hay for the short Summer of bankruptcies, repossessions and falling prices of virtually everything.
The turmoil will stop eventually, and real collapse has the dubious salvation of hitting the bottom fast. But afterwards, it will be a little like the movie, The Day After Tomorrow. Not covered in snowdrifts or tsunamis, but everything will be very different.
Only then perhaps, when merchandise has its value no longer set by some bean counter in a skyscraper but people’s actual need and capacity to pay for it, does the UK turn a corner and begin its glacial process of painful recovery.
Too bleak a picture to be painting? Well, where do you find any positives? The “Empire 2” economic philosophy is a busted flush, because it was the post war collapse of the Empire 1 philosophy which found the UK desperate to join the EEC in the first place, and that was despite having a European Free Trade Agreement, the very thing which at this moment in time looks “optimistic”. The UK in the 70’s had Steel, Shipbuilding, a Car Industry, mining, fishing, manufacturing, avionics. True, it all needed massive investment and modernisation, and didn’t get it, but hence we see the consequences in the UK’s shocking balance of trade.
I dare say there are positives; petrochem…. err. Whisk… em. Food and dri… shipbuil… touris… electron… fishin… farmi… shit.
Yeah. Tea and biscuits to Japan, and clusterbombs to the Saudi’s. Sorted.
@ Meg merrilees 3.53pm
Agreed. We could keep the ‘big guns who lost’ in reserve for TV, big speeches or arguing, ie Angus Robertson v Andrew Neil. There’s a danger of yoons coming oot with ‘but you lost your seat na na neh na na’.
Plus we would need to make sure that the interviewee would be capable of answering all the questions that get fired at them!
Isn’t this what the National Registry was supposed to be for?
I think some kind of agreement between different groups that anything said, say in interview, or for press questions/releases should be FOR Scotland and not for their party/group. Aye ok, that probably sounds a bit N Korean but we need a United front, not the Greens saying one thing and Common Weal saying the opposite and Rise saying something completely different!
What about Richard Murphy and maybe one of the No to Yes people from Phantom Power? They would make great ambassadors for their particular reason, ah mean you couldnae get a more diverse lot.
We ALL need to get ‘Independence, first last and always’ out there. No compromise, no deviation just straight YES!
Liz Rannoch says:
Isn’t this what the National Registry was supposed to be for?
———————-
i dont think so, it is a means for disparate groups to organise across the whole of scotland. it imposes no top down political ideology, just a means for us to communicate with each other.
Tough one nominating a leader. Different groups have their captains. I’ve always personally admired robin mcalpine’s energy as head of commonweal. Not saying he should front the yes2 campaign infact I actually think YES’ strength is its diversity. Not having a solitary leader could be a good thing.
Anyway for me someone young, ambitious and vibrant would be my preference.
First though, and since the start gun hasn’t been fired, we have to be chipping away at the economic myths surrounding indy scot. I’d say we need more richard murphy’s – professionals who are happy to call out the neoliberal rubbish that gets poured out about our ability to self-govern.
I would say Mahri Black, other than SNP supporters, most other people will not have heard of her as the media don’t like the truth.
She has more time, and they cant say “get on with the day job”
Yes, definitely not Sturgeon, leader of the SNP and FM. And also not anyone who has strong political view which is mostly of the left. Makes it very hard, it has to be someone basically not in politics.
yesindyref2 says:
14 October, 2017 at 4:57 pm
Yes, definitely not Sturgeon, leader of the SNP and FM. And also not anyone who has strong political view which is mostly of the left. Makes it very hard, it has to be someone basically not in politics.
Judy Murray, before she gets made a Dame of realm or whatever gong Brenda hands out to reward loyal brits etc
Daily Heil fascists hate her.
Fury as Scottish Government APPROVES Judy Murray’s plans for a £37.5m sports academy despite public inquiry ruling there was no need for the complex
Minister have granted ‘in principle’ permission for Judy Murray’s sports academy
It would include 12 tennis courts and a Murray museum in Dunblane, their home
But locals have opposed plans from day one and say they won all other battles, securing opposition from the inquiry Reporter and the community council
The group is considering its next steps for the plot of green field land
Re Privy Counsellors.
I have no problem with the leader of the SNP or Scottish Parliament bein a member of the Privy Council – it kinda goes with the job.
What I do have a problem is that Ruth the Mooth’s was sworn in July of last year. I see no reason for this unless there was some scheme or plan being drummed up that required top secrecy.
re leader
frankie boyle?
RE secret Brexit reports.
What I want to know is..
Has Ruth (open invitation to the UK cabinet) Davison seen these reports?
If not why not?
If not yet then when?
And if she has seen them,then she can tell us if we do or don’t have anything to worry about.
Give the Country and the Parliament that she represents and answers to……….
An absolute commitment that there is no truth to the rummors that these documents show that Scotland will be particularly badly affected by Brexit…….she could swear on her privy councilor honour!!!
Couldn’t she….
Someone is sure to ask her soon, I’m sure…… aren’t they?
Mibbi she is receiving Emails about it as we speak!
Oookay last post just disappeared cos I’d ‘already said that’. Totally different post. ? Try again.
@ schrodingers cat 4.50
Thanks, not saying they could put up a leader, just that they could be used more. A march here, a talk there. The where and when of what’s happening. Kinda like what the National does – just more – groups and folks would know about – everything! A la Catalonia.
Note to self – explain – don’t just type what pops into yer heid!
Anybody going to the ‘Independence Rocks’ gig in Dunfermline Thursday 26th 7.30 till Cactus hour!?
Indyref2
Not someone from the left? Why not. The right wing Tories will never vote for independence. Only a few on the right may vote pro independence such as indyref2!!
Interesting comments on potential leaders here. Alex Salmond, Mhari Black, Tommy Shepherd, Jean Freeman, Lesley Riddoch, The Wee Ginger Dug, etc, etc
And I think we’re missing our strength.
All of the above are on side, up to speed and will be there. They know the subjects inside out, as do most of all the people on this site, as do most of the people attending WFI, SNP local groups, The Common Weil and all the others.
If you have but one leader, they can cut the head off quite easily.
If you have all of us, well, as the saying goes, you can stamp on the flowers, but you can’t stop spring.
We could do with a road map, not a detailed one, but a rough sketch. We had that with Indy1, keeping it positive, positive, positive. While the other side had project fear.
I see an establishment desperately battering down the hatches on any info on Brexit… and the other side of the coin is…. is there ANY good news about Brexit, anything at all?
I see and hear nothing. And for those who voted for Brexit due to fears over immigration, please get them telt. T May’s first trip was to India, desperate for a trade deal, any trade deal and visas for Indian people was absolutely on the table. Brexit means more immigration, not less, with fewer workers rights to protect us.
When the terms of Brexit become clearer, we (here) will likely research and find out its full horrors. The media will down play it big time.
When we then call for an Indy Ref – England will insist on a new Brexit Ref (UK Wide, of course) at the same time. How could they not. AND IT WILL SPLIT THE SCOTTISH INDY VOTE.
What flavour of EU membership would you like, along with your new coloured vow and your new Devo max /federalism? Hmmmm. In, out, shake it all about.
So, I suggest when it comes to bad news Brexit, we keep it simple, we keep it local, we keep it about threats to local jobs, we keep it about food prices going up (they can feel that one already). We keep it about chlorinated chicken and mad trump stealing our health service.
We must get the message across that WE are the people our pensioners can trust, with their heating allowance, with their bus fairs, with their homes and their NHS. And that for now, a vote for Indy will be the safest option and the one with the least amount of upheaval, the least amount of damage to the economy. Nice, reassuring, friendly, responsible, businesslike, international, safe yessers. The path of least resistance.
We must get across to our professionals – a privatised NHS will bankrupt any family as soon as serious illness hits, but in any event, cost an average family of 4 about 11,000 a year (I think dollars, but I can’t remember the source), and is a private contract that they can tear up whenever they feel like it.
And we cannot allow any new Referendum – on indy or brexit – to be carried out without the presence of the UN. I’m sure they need practice areas, for training purposes, if the Scottish Government is reading this… invite them over, get them free accommodation, let them see our BBC and Papers in their full glory now. Its called boxing clever. And given the Tory scandals during elections, they are in no position to cry about it. Get the study in now and the report in now with regards Postal Vote security, and fire alarms activating in counting halls.
And folks, most of all, as the Wee Ginger Dug said today in the National, lets stop waiting for someone to come along and start the firing pistol. It really is up to us – and lets be honest, we’re doing it anyway.
It would take months, and thousands of pounds for Billboards. But in the mean time, every car is a billboard. Lets get on.
I can think of no one better to lead Indy Ref2 than Nicola Sturgeon.
A lot of people don’t appear to understand that if some other person is chosen to lead IndyRef2 he or she will be demonised exactly the way Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon have been and they wont survive that.
It is only because these two are so good that we have held up. I can see absolutely no person in the same league and those who are thrashing about looking for somebody else are doing our enemies’ work for them
We can have a leader with all the charisma in the world but if we don’t have a proper brief for them the bbc and their ‘experts’ will pour on the ridicule.
Example in the previous campaign the msm loved to mention the fact that BOE would continue to be our LOLR (lender of last resort. So the likes of willie rennie with the help of aunty could paint this picture of English people bailing out scotland. These things tended to go broadly unanswered.
The proper reply would have been..
“Willie, do you actually understand what LOLR involves?
OK I’ll tell you. It involves the BOE using its computer to mark up the accounts of commercial banks on it’s books. It is zero cost to the tax payer and happens on a daily basis”
For me a 2 v 2 on scotland’s finances would be a YES spokesperson with a neutral progressive economist. Not one who has any interest in us becoming independent but has more of an interest in calling out bullshit economics.
There should be a team of speakers for YES.
A photogenic charmer for TV. Martin Compston?
A Tommy Sheridan type figure or Tommy Sheridan himself for the working class areas, public meetings, rallies etc.
Angus Robertson for 1-2-1 for pundit interviews and appeal to wealthier areas.
An essential quality of any new Yes grouping is charisma.
The previous leader of ‘Yes’ was a dry stick. I don’t recall a single moment of spontaneity or smart humour. Though articulate he had a tendency to sound like a BBC spokesperson reading from a preapproved text.
That is only my personal observation. I don’t expect anybody to agree.
I noticed few looking for enlightenment took much regard of what he had to say – a serious failing in ale, especially about the BBC not a biased organisation. That statement alone categorised him as a poor on homework and without analysis.
The other quality surely has to be dedication. You don’t swan in and then out again as the mood takes you.
maybe we are getting too technical
re the snp/sg, they will be big big players in indyref2, no question about it, as will ric, wfi BfS
perhaps the creation and the launch of yesscotland2(SIC) is a rallying cry, the starting pistol etc and who leads it is less relevant than we think. Lets face it, when it comes to good speakers we have an embaressment of riches cf bt2
perhaps we should just bite the bullet and choose someone, it we cant please everyone, so why try. perhaps we can put forward a list of names then ask wings to run a poll on here,
frankly, I would abide by the majority decision of wingers, I dont think we can prevaricate about the bush much longer.
my choice
Gordon Macintyre-Kemp
it’s the economy stupid
As far as I’m concerned, England has been searching for a way to replace it’s empire for quite some time, and Brexit was sold to the public as a panacea to their woes by a bunch of far-right, authoritarian, economic thugs. The BBC was a willing accomplice.
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0103-40142008000100010&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en
The Empire Strikes Back
Race and racism in 70s Britain
http://eprints.mdx.ac.uk/17671/1/EmpireStrikesBack%201982.pdf
It’s not about security, it’s about racism: counter-terror strategies, civilizing processes and the post-race fiction
https://www.nature.com/articles/palcomms201731
And another thing…
Have sent this to Alyn Smith.
Dear Mr Smith,
I read today that Westminster is refusing FOI disclosure with regards the existence of and the contents of studies done with regards the Economic Consequences for Britain following Brexit.
Apparently to reply might provoke ‘reactionary’ behaviour from unruly Northeners.
I suspect it highly unlikely that Westminster managed to pull together any form of report without using many of the statistic gathered by and published by the EU.
Can a freedom of information request be done with the EU to confirm if specific reports were requested by Westminster. I’m sure The SNP MPs there will be able to supply the Department names, etc.
Can the Scottish Government then request copies of the same reports.
Or is it more likely the information was freely available and already published.
If so, and in any event, can we get it please.
Yours sincerely – a Reactionary Scot
An essential quality of any new Yes campaign is charisma.
The previous leader of ‘Yes’ was a dry stick. I don’t recall a single moment of spontaneity or smart humour.
Though articulate he had a tendency to sound like a BBC spokesperson reading from a preapproved text. As a former BBC employee himself he made plain the BBC is impartial! That statement categorised him as an unreliable ‘expert’.
That’s my personal observation, probably not a shared one.
Mind you, I noticed few looking for enlightenment took much regard of what he had to say – a serious failing.
The other quality surely has to be dedication. You don’t swan in and then out again as the mood takes you.
@ Dave McEwan Hill. Dave I received a F/Book friends request from DMcH , on checking the profile there’s not much to go by can you confirm , or do you have a doppelganger .
@schrodingers cat
GMK would definitely be on my shortlist
@ Daisy Walker 5.59
‘every car is a billboard’. I always thought our car was until a saw the Freedom Convoy in Dunfermline.
My darling mum passed last December and her house has just been sold, so me and my sister are now heiresses !lol. Just hoping there will be enough left after paying for her excellent care to buy a new ‘billboard’. Don’t imagine the current stickers will come off too easily so will probably have fun buying a new lot. Have already seen a number plate that I fancy – tho’ Mr R says ‘why would you spend £1000 on a number plate’?! But it’s my money… we’ll see.
@ Hamish100 says: “Only a few on the right may vote pro independence such as indyref2!!”
I’m not on the right, nor am I on the left – or centre. I think I’m a “societist” 🙂
In case this hasn’t been posted before .
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/pat-leahy-what-is-happening-to-great-britain-1.3255498?mode=amp
i think Alan Bissett would be an excellent leader of yes2. he has appeal at many levels due to his straight talking approach. don’t know too much about his other commitments / availability tho 😉
” Support for a second independence referendum in Scotland could surge in the event of a no-deal Brexit, an expert on Scotland’s relationship with the EU has said. “
…. who could have guessed!? 😉
http://archive.is/gWkDY (Text only)
@ Grouse Beater { As a former BBC employee himself he made plain the BBC is impartial! That statement categorised him as an unreliable ‘expert’. }
Blair Jenking’s card was marked as soon as he said the Bbc were impartial . Now as a party to SIC he wont inspire confidence within the Yes movement, if they had any sense they would dispense with his input he should have been sacked the 1st time running the Yes site .
Kevin Bridges mebbes?
Petra,
“A Tommy Sheridan type would have been ideal but the Establishment has made sure he’s been sent into ‘exile.’”
Don’t blame the Establishment, he was betrayed by his ‘socialist’ colleagues.
Many in the independence movement had also distanced themselves from him in his time of need.
Yet he did much better than the likes of Harvey and Sillars who attacked Alex Salmond and the SNP at every opportunity.
You were not around here at that time and would not know, but the official Yes movement had also distanced itself from the Rev. Stuart Campbell after he had exposed the hypocrisy of a Tory scum MP.
The Yes movement itself was led by an Establishment BBC figure who said that the BBC was not biased.
We need someone who can openly say it to their face that the BBC are lying biased hypocrites.
Independence will not happen until the BBC has been completely discredited and destroyed in Scotland.
I was thinking of not a politician or even a past politician or maybe a business person but someone with an instantly recognisable identity and someone who can’t be hammered by the press as having political ambitions or monetary gain to be had, someone trusted in Scotland like for example
David Hayman maybe? I think he’s for Independence he’s not politically connected and everyone knows him
I might be way out of turn on this but if he was up for it he can certainly speak with a calm but powerful passion and the press and TV would love having him on and wouldn’t try to force him to answer finance stuff just point to the politicians and economists because Independence isn’t only about money
I also think if we could get someone like that other names would follow in support
I hope to goodness he’s for Independence or I’m getting a row for opening my big gub
GMK
Alan Bissit
WGD
any others?
i would add another caveat to the creation of a short list, if there are sufficient numbers who specifically dont like a name then s/he doesnt make the list.
eg, i like tommy sheridan but i know many dont and so he would be too divisive, so he is out.
actually, i cant think of any reason why wingers cant chose someone to lead the yes campaign, he/she may not be the yes scotland leader but would be A yesscotland leader
i would also second GB’s suggestion, someone with character and humour would be a good idea too. B jenkins was a tad dull
“Every car is a billboard”. True, but I felt obliged to remove the stickers from my wee car after indyref 1. It looked like the script for a porn film. Yes….yes….yes…..YES…YES……Oh god YES!!!!!
Fred says:
Kevin Bridges mebbes?
good idea, i would add, that for the mo, whether people would do or be available shouldnt be a concern.
@Ronnie Anderson –
I was just about to make exactly the same point about Jenkins. Far too ‘polished’, no trace of passion about him at all, and he properly blew it with that spineless comment about the BBC being ‘unbiased’. Did he give a thought to how that might affect folk like John Robertson who’d put their baws and professions on the line proving the opposite?
I want to see a woman leading the campaign, and if it was my shout it would be Elaine C Smith – passion, humour, and aggression when required. She’s the real deal – the likes of McTernan, McDougall and Hothersall wouldn’t last five minutes with her.
David Hayman
Gordon Mackintyre Kemp
Alan Bissit
WGD
Kevin Bridges
Richard Murphy
i could be convinced otherwise but i think mainstream politicians should be excluded from this list, the snp and the greens will mount their own campaigns and will be afforded a media platform because they are big parties, alex salmond will create his own platform, john nicolson will continue on this week etc.
It needs passion. Say what we like about Darling, but he had anger, he had passion. Jenkins had all the passion of a hibernating amoeba, and that’s being unkind to the poor amoeba. If Jenkins gets anywhere near public debate we might as well emigrate and give up, the rest of Scotland will be asleep, he was so boring.
Passion, that’s what’s needed. I like the idea of David Hayman – if he’s a YES! I’d say he could show some interest. Or Frankie Boyle! Other suggestions fine too.
Say what we like about Darling, but he had anger, he had passion
Apart from when he went missing for 3 fucking months!!
So Jeanne Freeman or Elaine C Smith, maybe Lesley Riddoch, but really a working class straight talking to the point character, so Lesley though she’s nice doesn’t have that ‘bite’ that both Jeanne and Elaine have.
I agree it needs to be a woman this time around, to engage the female vote and those two strike me as the most articulate and fiercely fiesty and know their facts and figures too…if Margo was still around I would’ve had her top of my list.
From Revs twitter:
No-deal Brexit ‘to trigger a new vote on Union’, says Scotland’s leading EU expert
https://archive.is/GPaZw
Let’s take a different approach to leadership of the YES2. First of all it is essential that local groups well resources are the bedrock of the campaign. Starting now they need to educate people to think Independence and act as if we are independent.
A grass roots matrix such as YES register linking groups and nationally. Providing information without any political preference will be a boom.
Nationally we don’t need a leader. We should refuse to put up a debater to the BBC or STV at all and concentrate on social media and building up support house by house. To win the mediaYES has to disrupt the state media. BBC. Staff lost the last referendum for us. If BBC staff in Scotland reflected the national vote then 45% of them votedYES. They knew what was going on in the BBC during the Campaign. They could have exposed that. National determination requires those who can do so to put national interest before their own. Sadly they were found wanting.
No chance of Sean Connery heading home in our hour of need?
Thinking about debates, Sturgeon has to go head to head, I’d love to see her destroy Mundell. Remember Carmichael “Help me Rona”? But she also knows when to go a bit easier, she won with Moore, but since the two had clearly had a lot of private debates over the dignified Edinburgh Agreement, he managed to get off with integrity and decency intact which was correct. Canavan is a decent guy, not fiery enough I think, but can do the serious stuff.
Perhaps whoever is chosen, of there is a head of YES, should be picked to counter the BT2 head, which is difficult as we don’t know who that’ll be. Possibly Davidson this time? In which case Mhairi Black would be a good choice, even though an SNP MP.
Shame there are no BBC whistle blowers gathering evidence at the moment…. nice job secured in the future perhaps 🙂
@ whoever said “We need a formal civil leadership for the YES movement at this point. A board of well known and respected faces as leadership to provide direction”
A coming together of all Indy forces outside of the SNP government seems essential if indyref2 is to be successful-
In my opinion the Board should reflect different professions, jobs and trade unions, cultural associations (Scottish song and dance, history etc), sporting and other clubs, pensioners, students etc, etc.
I visited an exhibition in Dublin last year about the build-up to the 1916 Rising.
I was amazed by how the idea of Irish Independence permeated through so many different categories of people from intellectuals, to postal and civil service workers and urban, port and farm labourers
Frankie Boyle – love him but could be a bit much for certain people to accept!
Elaine C Smith – was going to mention her myself, for exactly the same reasons as above.
Don’t forget the SNP Youth team, could be some up coming future MPs/MSPs among them. Don’t know enough about them to mention any in particular.
Anybody from English for Independence?
@ Bill Hume 7.37
Tea – meet screen!!!
this is the long list, many on here wont be available for one reason or another but it should be noted that it seems to be writing itself. the scotlist will probably be only 4-5 names
Elaine C Smith
Lesley Riddoch,
David Hayman
Gordon Mackintyre Kemp
Alan Bissit
WGD
Kevin Bridges
Richard Murphy
Stu campbell
craig murray
Robin Macalpine
I like Jeanne too, but i think she and others would be earmarked for the snp campaign and as I have said, John and alex already have high public profiles on tv.
but since she was mentioned, i will add to list
snp
Jeanne Freeman
alex salmond
angus robertson
john nicolson
@ K1 says 8:05 pm …. ”So Jeanne Freeman or Elaine C Smith, maybe Lesley Riddoch, but really a working class straight talking to the point character, so Lesley though she’s nice doesn’t have that ‘bite’ that both Jeanne and Elaine have. I agree it needs to be a woman this time around, to engage the female vote and those two strike me as the most articulate and fiercely fiesty and know their facts and figures too…if Margo was still around I would’ve had her top of my list.”
It looks as though some of the names that you’ve mentioned are involved with the Scottish Independence Convention, K1. I see that they’re already referrring to themselves as the ‘umbrella body for the Scottish Independence Movement.’
Whatever the case it would make sense to get the brains and talent, and there’s a wealth of it in Scotland, ALL under one roof.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Independence_Convention
independenceconvention.scotCached
The Scottish Independence Convention, the umbrella body for the Scottish independence movement, today said it is well into preparations to fight and win a new ..
http://www.scottishindependenceconvention.org/
http://independenceconvention.scot/about-us
Tinto Chiel @ 9.39 AM
Cheers , sadly I nicked the avatar circa 2013 when I first came to Wings.
I saw it online & saved it , then when folk were getting avatars on here I found it in my Pics. I have not a clue from where I nicked it.
I have posted here and elsewhere asking for the originator to come forward as they deserve a massive thank you from me , it’s got everything “Scottish” about it.
I did recently see someone else has now added “Still YES” either Twitter or FB , can’t recall.
‘Well scraped a win today , so yer a “Happy Chappie” tonight.
Back on topic.
I had the pleasure in meeting GMK in 2014 , he admitted to me that the Indy Q was not in his radar until a new position opened up & he had to do some research ( economics) & his eyes opened and he really realised how “wrong” everything was.
IMHO , GMK could be seen as a neutral / No who very quickly moved to YES
All TV work GMK has done has been exemplary & impressive plus he doesn’t get flustered, would knock the socks off Blair Jenkins.
Equally important is a YES movement that is up to speed and conveys “facts” as they come to light and briefs everyone before they appear on TV or Radio.
We all enjoy those moments when some one bites back/ debunking with a fact we had discussed here that afternoon.
The converse is ALL our frustration when a well known fact we all know here is missed & we are all shouting out at the TV !
Let’s not forget we have many “Yessers” weel Kent folk from the commercial world Jim McColl, Mr MacDonald ( MacDonald Hotels) , Sandy Adam (Springfield Homes) and there are many more.
We need to remember that the other side see us as a “Cult” and are a bunch o knuckle draggers.
This image is also what BT use to put soft nos off.
Liz Rannoch says:
14 October, 2017 at 8:25 pm
Frankie Boyle – love him but could be a bit much for certain people to accept!
———–
lol, yeah, i gotta agree liz
matt from ES4Y, good idea, i’ll add him to the list
I dont know how well he would perform on tv etc, but it should be pointed out that cometh the hour, cometh the man, indyref2 threw up loads of people i’d never heard off who blew me away, jeanne freedman etc,
while we are at it, what about some of our own wingers? grouse beater, heedtracker,dadsarmy, rock, colin, ken500 etc
cat amongst pidgeons, lights touch paper and stands weel back 🙂
I’m not going to add to the discussion on who should lead the next campaign but I would like to see everyone who intends to vote YES in Indyref2 and who enjoys a public profile of any kind – in media, the arts, business, academia etc. – to make their intentions clear in the public domain and in a timely fashion.
Next time will really, really matter – last chance for very long time perhaps.
After all, we know from experience in 2014 that our opponents (including Dan Snow and his celebrity friends) will get every public figure they can to come out to support the British Nationalist cause. If we have ‘silent’ Yessers with a public profile, it will soon be time to nail their colours publicly to the mast. If not now, when?
re ‘Leader’ for Indyref2 –
Does anyone remember a big set-piece BBC production to ‘celebrate’ the 200th anniversary of the Union? Paxman was there, and Kirsty Wark, big-name guests etc. I’ve tried to find it on YT, with no success.
Anyway, Elaine C Smith was on a ‘panel’ discussing Scottish cultural stuff along with Ian Rankin. The latter looked appeared to have had a wee refreshment and made an uncalled-for snidey remark about River City. Well! E C Smith tore him a new one in ten seconds flat and he said little thereafter. She can do that – she’s feisty and sassy and does *brilliant* stand-up. She’s also the right side of fifty and would appeal to the mature female electorate we’ve found so difficult to reach.
Question is, would she want to do it?
Ooops something didn’t work but here’s another outlining their plans etc.
http://independenceconvention.scot/new-indyref
…………………………………
Great front page on the National today.
‘RELEASE THE SECRET FILE ON BREXIT DAMAGE TO SCOTLAND.’
Photograph of Davis with ‘Call made after Davis refuses to release report which is said to show Scotland will be worst hit.’
some are in SIC, but if wingers chose one of them then that would only increase their credibility and mandate to speak on behalf of all yessers.
btw, you cant please everyone etc, and we shouldnt even try, but that doesnt mean wingers cant have a say?
this list isnt as long as i thought it would be.
matt from ES4Y
Elaine C Smith
Lesley Riddoch,
David Hayman
Gordon Mackintyre Kemp
Alan Bissit
WGD
Kevin Bridges
Richard Murphy
Stu campbell
craig murray
Robin Macalpine
snp
Jeanne Freeman
alex salmond
angus robertson
john nicolson
I’m very wary of SIC, it has too much left tendency, but could be balanced by the likes of Michael Fry, and with GMK on board would have some business interest.
Elaine C Smith could appeal to the older gang, her Burdz Eye View, not my cup of tea but, but quite popular.
Irish border issue going to really hurt brexit.
Fianna Fail leader, Micheal Martin pulls no punches.
http://archive.is/hOoP5
Ian Brotherhood says:
Anyway, Elaine C Smith
Question is, would she want to do it?
———————-
i think 4 the mo we should concentrate on creating a long list. but yes, many on this list wont be able or willing to it ian, so they wont make the short list anyway. as i said, i think that only 4/5 will make the short list and be put to the vote
Just a thought – if we’re really trying to nail one name, it might help to imagine that person doing all the same gigs that Blair Jenkins did. Seems reasonable to assume that the broad MSM landscape isn’t going to change *that* much before IR2 is upon us, so the new person would likely end up on a lot of the same shows with the same hosts.
😉
Yes Indy @ 8.01
In the absence of discussion on here I’m gonna fly with Lard Reid & its ilk, or whatever it calls its-self, being responsible for the green brigade banner at Dundee (which, incidentally I dont disagree with) but I draw the line at anyone stepping in to defend Brown or Darling: if and when truth and reconciliation happens they are the two that must fight to confirm who was the ultimate Scottish bastard of recent history.
@Ian B
Jenkins was at least able to make a point and stick to the point, Smith isn’t great at the debates, she comes across as a bit muddle-headed. Mmm, it ain’t easy.
yesindyref2 says:
I’m very wary of SIC, it has too much left tendency
——————
agree with that, some balance would be good, but i maintain, there is no reason why stu couldnt put this to a poll, there is no reason why he cant ask his readers who they would like as next leader of yes2? with the following WOS has, the results could run into the 10s of thousands. it would give the winner more of a mandate than anyone else. once again, i ask, why shouldnt wingers get a say in this issue?
Michael Fry
matt from ES4Y
Elaine C Smith
Lesley Riddoch,
David Hayman
Gordon Mackintyre Kemp
Alan Bissit
WGD
Kevin Bridges
Richard Murphy
Stu campbell
craig murray
Robin Macalpine
snp
Jeanne Freeman
alex salmond
angus robertson
john nicolson
@Stuart McTavish
In “war” you always study the opposing general, look at the tactics and steal them if any good, but at least have a counter ready. Remembering the two debates with Salmond Aug 2014, the ICM poll put Darling as the winner of the first one by by 56% to 44%, but Salmond the second by by 71% to 29%.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salmond_%26_Darling:_The_Debate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland_Decides:_Salmond_versus_Darling
being responsible for the green brigade banner at Dundee (which, incidentally I dont disagree with)
Stuart, the green brigade can get tae fuck…
Why couldn’t there be dual leadership Elaine C & Hardeep Singh Kohli both have the passion & wit to go against any on the Unionist side .
What about Bernard Ponsonby?
He’s comfortable with the media and has close links with lots of ‘sources’ plus he’s not shy about speaking up for the truth ???
In “war” you always study the opposing general
We couldn’t study him as he went missing for 3 fucking months and then reappeared in the guise of inspector Dreyfuus, can you not remember this. Please do not in any way try and justify the Flipper on here….
Had they had anything worth stealing they would have been openly pro independence.
They weren’t
Could we add someone re: Health issues.
Dr Philippa Whitford MP
@cat
Michael Fry on the list. Not sure how he’d fare in debates. I put a criticism in a comment on an article some months ago, and the next article he took the huff and mentioned me by name in the article 🙂 Not an appropriate thing to do – btl is btl.
But his point of view is a needed balance, he could be a part of SIC but not Mr, Mrs, Miss or Ms YES.
@Croompenstein
Whoever is head of BT2 will need to be picked apart anatomically like a chicken bone, to properly counter them, and you can’t do that if you just go “bad bad bad bad bad”.
Michael fry is an absolute liability. His pish is so easy to unpick.
Hardeep Singh Kohl is a great shout btw.
Remember the msm will have an army of finance/economic ‘experts’. As I’ve said before YES needs a council of economic advisors
Croompenstein @ 9.09,
I”m sure they’ll be delighted to; the point being whether or not they are purveyors and/or apologists for hatred they – and the rest of Scottish football – are certainly not sole purveyors and/or apologists for hatred in the country.
I humbly suggest politicians first, churnos second
Its less the leader’s and more the campaign itself.
We need to get Scotland to ask itself why a small wealthy class with money and private school education, easily vault over and away from everyone else, to get the top teamGB jobs and the highest pay ofcourse?
Its not for nothing that Flipper Darling ran Project Fear, ex
https://www.loretto.com/
now a Lord with a seat on the board of Morgan Stanley
https://www.morganstanley.com/press-releases/alistair-darling-elected-to-morgan-stanley-board-of-directors
barely 3 months after winning the Scottish referendum, all the charisma of limp lettuce.
“Does anyone remember a big set-piece BBC production to ‘celebrate’ the 200th anniversary of the Union?”
Not sure if many of us were around in 1907!
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/liz-truss-universal-credit_uk_59de3067e4b04fc4e1ea75de
Not often Brillo ask’s pertinent questions of the Tories .
Flipper was a liabilty for BT, the cunt went in to meltdown after the secret poll in March 2014 and went missing for 3 months getting his training, am I the only one who remembers this!!
Do not rewrite history and imply that that fucker Darling was an able general..
Stuart the green brigade can still get tae fuck along with the billy boys and their fenian blood shite..
Just to add to the list:
Sir Harry Burns
Duncan Hamilton
Alan Cummings
At the end of the day it is up to us all to do more than we did last time.
As for indy marches/rallys – every city, town & village should have one all on the same day (easier for folk to attend than centralising on Glasgow or Edinburgh only)
Car rallys/Bikers & cyclists too – (you can buy neat little car window clips for Saltires) Mobilise everyone on the same day all across Scotland will have a better impact, IMHO
‘What about Bernard Ponsonby?’
Is he a Yes?
@Albert Herring –
😉
You can probably feel me blushing, wherever ye are!
Seriously though, does anyone remember that encounter between E. C. Smith and Rankin? It was, as far as these things go, quite ‘heated’.
Worth reading.
https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2017/10/14/the-fantasies-of-a-trailer-park-government/
@One_Scot
Shhhh 🙂
Croompen?tein @ 9.09
chill dude, its mostly banter.
If ever we need generals we’ll rather be shootin’ the dotards in the back
@ScottieDog
He had a great website though during Indy Ref 1, Wealthy Nation, it now redirects to Wealthy Nation Institute, but the old website can be found via archive.org, here’s a snapshot from 21st Sep 2014, and the links work. Currency had/has some interesting articles on it. They were useful in IR1 to refute a whole load of BT nonsense.
https://web.archive.org/web/20140921062028/http://www.wealthynation.org:80/
Yeah, ah remember Croomp, we all do. Darling was a first class mumbling wanksocket…he got his rewards though eh…Lord Wanksocket has a guid ring tae it.
Do not rewrite history and imply that that fucker Darling was an able general..
He didnt need to be. Did Flipper ever sit in a billion quid BBC studio and actually get interviewed, by massed ranks of private school/Oxbridge educated beeb gimps?
No.
Its all about the many reasons for change in Scotland.
Why should one class, one minority class, dominate and rule Scotland, like they do today?
What will change if this minority class gets stripped of its power and privilege?
And cue big swinging fear mongers like Blair MacHungryHippo, currently watching his JK Trolling dosh dwindle away.
i take on board the critisms about michael fry thats 3 strikes he is off list. btw, we are only creating the long list at the moment. the next stage would be to see if they are willing to do it. it is then that a short list can be created and we could discuss the merits or otherwise of the actual candidates
Hardeep Singh Kohli (great call)
Sir Harry Burns
Duncan Hamilton
Alan Cummings (unlikely, he lives in usa)
Bernard Ponsonby (londoncalling)
matt from ES4Y
Elaine C Smith
Lesley Riddoch,
David Hayman
Gordon Mackintyre Kemp
Alan Bissit
WGD
Kevin Bridges
Richard Murphy
Stu campbell
craig murray
Robin Macalpine
snp
Jeanne Freeman
alex salmond
angus robertson
john nicolson
ronnie anderson at 6.42
Yep.This was me. My computer has crashed completely and I’m trying to build up contacts on another’s computer
I mean this is tory UK, 1917:D
£100 million for a new yacht for the Queen. Prince Charles has a private train though, so its only fair.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-ministers-royal-yacht-plans-eu-uk-negotiations-talks-deadlock-queen-a7998021.html
Macart, from commenter btl on the Dug’s latest…worth reposting here…
‘SECRET BREXIT DOCUMENTS
The Government has commissioned studies into what Brexit means for the country but is refusing to release those studies to the public.
Solicitors acting for the Good Law Project and Molly Scott Cato, MEP have written [1] to the Department for Exiting the European Union and HM Treasury asking for their release. Unless the studies are provided within 14 days the Good Law Project and Ms Scott Cato will issue judicial review proceedings to attempt to force the Government to publish them.’
https://goodlawproject.org/brexit/secret-brexit-documents/
Don’t know if what they are seeking is the same information that has come to light today or if these are seperate studies…
Heedtracker,
re Darling, ‘barely 3 months after winning the Scottish referendum, all the charisma of limp lettuce.’
If you add some nice salad dressing to limp lettuce you can revive it… not sure that would work with Darling.
For your info.
Daisy, Alyn will be in a position to contact Molly Scott Cato MEP and perhaps they can work together to include the latest one that they are denying may or may not exist? Maybe you could send this off to him too.
@cat
That should e GA Ponsonby, though who knows about Bernard?
@cat
Another entry – Brian Cox, don’t know where he lives though these days.
heedtracker says:
You could get a new hospital somewhere, anywhere, for that money …
https://www.england.nhs.uk/2015/02/cramlington-hospital/
In fact there’s a wee challenge for Betty Windsor … she should tell the eijits to get a grip and she wants a hospital instead!
For your info.
Flipper’s retired now at 66, so he’s not coming back. He’ll do cameo’s of BetterTogether glory days across the beeb gimp network but as usual, its his wife who’s got real britnat tory punch, in the nuts:D
Posho Tories are usual pretty trashy right enough, when threatened. Online, like facebook, if your cheeking about Teresa at all, you get told to leave the UK, if you hate “it” or “us” so much.
It is a big mindset to change, shaking off planet toryboy.
eg
This weeks Hammer of the Scots Severin Carrell’s latest dispatch from his Scotland region, the glories of shooting deer with high velocity rifles, in the not S____h Highlands. Its like standing in a field and shooting skinny cows and ofcourse an environmental holocaust but not for The Graun britnat tories.
http://archive.is/ikc1E
@ Dave McEwan Hill. Ok thanks send again cat find your request .
Yes indy ref 2
thank you for that correction – I meant G A Ponsonby but for some reason – senility?- my brain could only think of Bernard!!!
In fact there’s a wee challenge for Betty Windsor … she should tell the eijits to get a grip and she wants a hospital instead!
Brenda’s not immortal. She’ll be floating up to royals enclosure in heaven sooner rather than later. She’ll probably do it on ref2 day, any sacrifice for this precious precious union.
Maybe the tory creep show can give her a Viking send orf, with their £100 million luxury yacht, all narrated by a Dimbleby too:D
Oink oink, pull me back by the tail so that I trot forward into the red darkness.
@Meg merrilees
Bernard would be a great catch! Remember when Osborne walked straight past him and off for his jet after telling us Scots we couldn’t use our pound? Bernard was not amused 🙂
Yesindyref2 and shrodingers cat
Hang on a minute… just done a quick online check via pictures!!!
I did mean Bernard when I suggested him earlier, but I realise that G A Ponsonby was responsible for ‘London Calling’ – a copy of which arrived with this month’s i-Scot magazine.
So I’m now proposing both!!!
However, as Bernard Ponsonby works for STV he may not want to put his neck on the line.
Off to have a cup of tea and stick my head out in the cool night air to achieve some clarity!!!
@heedtracker (11.00) –
I don’t say this often enough brother, but ah pure luvs you, so ah do…
🙂
@meg merrilees
As far as I know he never said which way he was voting, but I did guess.
yesindyref2 @ 23:07,
And likewise his sandbagging of Fallon and his empty rhetoric at the shipyard until Minderwpman had to step in to defend the Defence Sec’y.
He’s one of the few TV journos whose current politics is genuinely impossible to fathom from his work. Which says something these days.
Some great names listed above. Most of these folk aren’t affiliated to political parties as far as I know. We need them all!
We need an element of labour on board. Obviously labour for independence are an asset but We really need high profile transfers across to Indy. Don’t knock the prospect of KD coming over (if she does). Hoping Malcolm Chisholm will finally take a step forward. Popular local figure in leith that would be a great asset IMO.
Would Mhairi Black be a possibility ?
Great speaker and huge appeal for the younger crowd
I also like Jeanne Freeman
my outsider would be
David Tennant (Dr Who)
@RJS
Yes, there was some program about him and with him a few weeks / months back, very interesting. Still impossible to say for sure. I think he just likes the truth.
Ah ScottieDog, couldn’t agree more. There’s also David Martin. I was sore disappointed in IR1 that none made the move, a trickle could have become a flood.
Just wonder if tommy Shepard as ex-labour Edinburgh man has some influence on the less ‘dyed in the wool’ labour types. Perhaps there’s lots going on behind the scenes.
O/T Long but good read.
Mark Frankland an Englishman living in Dumfries and running the local food-bank has written this moving piece — makes me so proud to be Scottish too! Welcome Mark — you are a true Scot! ?????? (kettle on and coffee time read)
All of my life I have always felt kind of bemused when watching people talking about how much love they have for their country. I get what they are saying of course. What I have never understood is how and why people feel that way. It has always been completely alien to me. It’s a bit bit like trying to get my head around why on earth anyone in their right mind could possibly want to support Man United.
Time and again I have been left feeling apart and bemused at the sight of Brits draping themselves in Union flags to celebrate a Royal wedding or the sinking of an Argentinian battleship.
I have always felt ill at ease at the idea of being British. In my younger days I backpacked my way round Africa and India and the locked down lands on the other side of the Iron Curtain. Whenever I was asked the ‘where are you from’ question I would answer with a lie. My preferred options were either Scotland or Australia. Either of these assumed nationalities were pretty well guaranteed to lead to a convivial night in some two bit bar in yet another two bit town.
I soon learned it was a bad idea to own up to my Englishness: my Britishness. To do so meant suspicion and dark looks. So I lied.
I have often wondered why I never came close to feeling any pride in Britain. I can’t say it came from my mum and dad. They were hardly flag wavers, but they never had the kind of problems with Britain I had. In hindsight, there were a number of factors which conspired to make me a person who was the very opposite of proud of the country of my birth.
Being a Liverpool fan at a time when the rest of England either laughed at us or hated us. Chasing around the towns of the north in my old VW Beetle watching the Clash. Sitting with the West Indians in the long hot summer of 76 as Viv Richards marmalised the England bowlers under a baking sun. ‘Rock against Racism’. ‘Free Mandela’. Driving the seething streets of Belfast with a Brit soldier on every corner. Driving to eastern Turkey and back and seeing posters of Bobby Sands on every wall.
And travelling through country after country where the British had stolen everything which wasn’t bolted down. Nigeria, Kenya, Uganda, India, Nepal….
Ireland…
Scotland….
And watching as the towns of the north were dismantled and destroyed by the hurricane of Thatcherism. Watching the North become a police state during the Miners Strike.
At an early age I could see clearly enough where the wealth of Britain had come from. Violence and conquest. Slaves and opium. And well covered up genocide.
And then all of sudden I became father to two sons who carry Africa in their blood. Two sons whose ancestors were once upon a time dragged from their villages and marched to the coast in chains and shipped across the Altantic to the killing fields of the Barbados sugar plantations. Sold in the market. Thrown into an utter hell.
The life expectancy of a slave sold in the Bridgetown market in the 17th Century was less than the life expectancy of a Jew stepping off the train at Auschwitz Birkenau in 1942. Yeah. Seriously.
Proud? I don’t think so.
I have thought a bit about this over the last few weeks whilst watching the astonishingly supurb BBC 4 documentary about the Vietnam War. If you haven’t seen it, you really should check it out though it is a hard, hard watch.
The programme gives time to many of the vets who volunteered to go and fight in South East Asia out of a profound patriotism. We tend to forget just how strong the dream of America was back in the early Sixties. Those were the days when the United States was still the shining city on the hill not just to its own citizens, but also to millions around the world. Of course much of this reputation was hardly deserved. Holywood had done a hell of a job of re-writing history in a way guaranteed to keep the city shining. The near genocide the new Americans committed as they stole the country from the original Americans was turned into epic movies of goody cowboys and baddy Injuns.
Yet despite being an a place of so much dog eat dog violence and racism, America still managed to be a beacon. For a hundred years Europe had been gripped by a murderous madness which resulted in tens of millions of dead people. In the midst of pograms and secret police raids and the savagery of Czars and Nazis and Bolsheviks, millions clung to the dream of escaping to America. The sanctuary. The Land of the Free. Countless millions yearned for the first sight of the Statue of Liberty and the towers of Manhattan Island.
Plenty of Scots crossed the ocean having been driven from their homes during the Clearances.
And then the dream died as the evening news started to show children whose flesh had been burned from the bone by napalm.
After Vietnam, there would be no more shining city on the hill. Only a bully in the playground. A miserable fifty year slide into the disgrace of Trump.
No wonder the young idealists who signed on the dotted line were so broken and bitter. They put their lives on the line to be on the side of the angels and instead found themselves a part of crimes against humanity.
In the midst of the Tet Offensive in January 1968 the Viet Cong got a firm grip on a town in the Mekong Delta. The only way the Americans were able to dislodge them was with wave after wave of airstrikes coupled with a massive artillery bombardment. When interviewed after the town had been cleared of the communist threat, the American officer in charge came out with a pretty epic statement.
“Unfortunately in order to save the town we had to destroy the town.”
The rain clouds swept in from the sea and the city on the hill lost its ability to shine.
Which all brings me to my own moment of surprising patriotism – the thing I never expected to feel. A moment when I could absolutely understand where the young Americans who signed up to fight for the dream of their country were coming from.
On Monday night a hard hitting Panorama shone a pretty unforgiving light on the growing racism which is sweeping through England.
They did the statistics. The spike in hate crime which followed the |Brexit vote. And in a small aside they dropped a throwaway stat which yanked at my attention.
‘In the wake of the Brexit vote, incidents of hate crime in Scotland and Northern Ireland fell’.
Fell.
Bloody brilliant.
And a small glow of patriotic pride found its way into my chest.
They told the story of Martha and her kids. A nice Polish family on the increasingly mean streets of Dudley. She is a teacher who came to find a better life for her family only to be threatened and called a ‘fucking Polish cunt’ in the playground a few weeks after the vote.
Things were worse for her two sons. Much worse. As Kamil (18) and Matteus (14) were walking home from school with their English girlfriends, they were attacked by 20 frothing at the mouth racists.
“Fucking Polish cunts … fuck off back to your own fucking country…”
They were chased and caught and beaten. Matteus was forced to the ground. He had a rock smashed into his face which splintered his teeth.
Not surprisingly Martha has had enough. It is time to go. Time to escape all the hate. Time to get away from streets where her son had a rock smashed into his face.
And then she said it. After 28 minutes of the programme she said it.
“We will move, maybe to Scotland, maybe back to Poland, but definitely from here.”
And there it was.
“Maybe to Scotland”
Because we are the new shining city on the hill. We are the place where the oppressed of the world are starting to dream of finding a sanctuary. We are becoming what America used to be.
And there it was. An emotion I had never felt before. A glow of pride in my country. And for the very first time in my life, the idea of flying a flag on my lawn didn’t seem so ridiculous after all. Not that I will actually do it! But all of a sudden the idea isn’t completely absurd.
I feel lucky to be a part of a country which is striving to be progressive and enlightened. A country which aspires to the decency of Scandanavia rather than the brutality of Trump’s America.
A country where people like Martha dream of running to.
What’s there not to be proud of?
Like
Show More Reactions
Comment
Share
15 15
2 shares
Comments
View 1 more comment
Ronnie Anderson @ 11.32
Saw this earlier on FB.
Agree totally.
@Ronnie Anderson –
Powerful.
When do we get the Friends of WOS Roadshow going?
😉
@ Ian Brotherhood We need to get the crew together & discuss things more fully , no use going at something half arsed .
@
ronnie anderson
Makes me greet. Maybe Scotland…..Maybe. ?
I’ll say it again. The boundaries of thought within colonised cultures become homogenised/structurated to fit the values of the colonising culture. Hence the BBC.
https://chisineu.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/biblioteca_postcolonial-spaces.pdf
Postcolonial art
http://www.tate.org.uk/art/art-terms/p/postcolonial-art
Postcolonial Imaginings
Fictions of a New World Order
https://rowman.com/ISBN/9780742510869/Postcolonial-Imaginings-Fictions-of-a-New-World-Order
Brilliant Ronnie, thanks for sharing.
“Great speaker and huge appeal for the younger crowd”
Eh? The weakness in the squad is 65+,70+. Establishment have been bolstering this area for a while and they already had depth, now they’ve gone all-in with Vince and Menzies brought in from the reserves.
Not jim “shouty” sillars – he needs benched and gagged after giving away a shocking last minute penalty in the first leg.
We need a safe pair of hands between the zimmers. Ideas?
Am oota here Goodnite all , cactus will be on the nightshift to keep yous entertained .
@ Yesindyref2 says at 8:42 pm …”I’m very wary of SIC, it has too much left tendency, but could be balanced by the likes of Michael Fry, and with GMK on board would have some business interest.”
You’re very WARY of SIC? Michael Fry is VERY Tory leaning don’t forget. Do you read his blogs on the National?
And have you actually checked out who has signed up to SIC already? Right, left and centre?
I don’t care who does it but we need an umbrella association prepared to co-ordinate right across the country akin to Catalonia to get EVERYONE with any brains, motivation and talent on board and get this moving, ASAP. If not SIC who or what do you recommend? More than anything take into account that time is running out for us.
If not SIC WHO Indyref2?
Ian Brotherhood says:
14 October, 2017 at 11:11 pm
@heedtracker (11.00) –
You too Ian and all WoS readers!
@ ronnie anderson says at 12:36 am …. ”Am oota here Goodnite all, cactus will be on the nightshift to keep yous entertained.”
Yous? Entertained? Like my relatives and friends who have been checking in here as we sleep, at my advice, from abroad?
@Petra
You mean like this?
http://independenceconvention.scot/about-us
But … where are these in the list under the umbrella (BfS is already there):
https://twitter.com/yestories?lang=en
Are they perhaps not feeling welcome by sich comments as “Michael Fry is VERY Tory leaning don’t forget. Do you read his blogs on the National? ”
As it says elsewhere:
“The Scottish Independence Convention is a Cross-Party/no party group whose purpose is to promote Scottish Independence and create a space of co-operation outside the party boundaries.
It is both an individual membership organisation and has party affiliates. The affiliated parties are the SNP, the Scottish Green Party, the Scottish Socialist Party and Solidarity. ”
But – where are the Conservatives, and the LibDems? Only 4% of Conservatives voted YES, but around 30% of LibDems voted YES, last time. The more the merrier!
Would you NOT want Michael Fry on board to give some “right of center” balance?
thanks for the corrections dads,
i will try not to disrupt threads in the coming daysa, but will post this list on future articles
pls point out any posts/names i have missed, hopefully in a week or so, we should have a long list that we can then work with
brian cox
Hardeep Singh Kohli (great call)
Sir Harry Burns
Duncan Hamilton
Alan Cummings (unlikely, he lives in usa)
GA Ponsonby (londoncalling)
matt from ES4Y
Elaine C Smith
Lesley Riddoch,
David Hayman
Gordon Mackintyre Kemp
Alan Bissit
WGD
Kevin Bridges
Richard Murphy
Stu campbell
craig murray
Robin Macalpine
snp
Jeanne Freeman
alex salmond
angus robertson
john nicolson
All these names mentioned here who could lead the grass roots yes movement, and hardly a mention of a certain man in Bath…!!
Imagine oor Rev up against those he destroys on here on an almost daily basis…Hmmm…!
geeo
dont be a prick all of yer life
read the fucking list
Petra
many of those on this list are in SIC
if one of them wins, perhaps it will be the shot in the arm SIC needs??
geeo
if you want to add someone else name to the list, just say and it will be done
as i said, dont be a twat all of your life 🙂
That’s not how I would set about building cohesion Cat. Just saying.
perhaps not cameron
but i was building cohesion
i was just fighting back against those who are going out of their way to destroy it
im very suspicious of some of the commentators on wings
perhaps we could all ask why geeo is intent on destroying the cohesion on this thread?
surely it is s/he who is doing this cameron?
i just told s/him to f off, nothing more
It does get to the stage at times when you wonder why the fuck you bother, it’s easier arguing with unionists. And more polite and more humorous, mostly.
schrodingers cat
I think you’re right to be suspicious of some blt but I wouldn’t put money on geeo being malicious. I’ve been known to be wrong though.
You’re your own boss mate. 😉
geeo made critisism about why the rev wasnt on the list….
he was, he is, ???
wtf
@ yesindyref2 says at 12:56 am .. ”As it says elsewhere: “The Scottish Independence Convention is a Cross-Party / no party group whose purpose is to promote Scottish Independence and create a space of co-operation outside the party boundaries. It is both an individual membership organisation and has party affiliates. The affiliated parties are the SNP, the Scottish Green Party, the Scottish Socialist Party and Solidarity. But – where are the Conservatives, and the LibDems? Only 4% of Conservatives voted YES, but around 30% of LibDems voted YES, last time. The more the merrier!”
You don’t seem to be too keen on SIC and I wonder why?
Yes the more the merrier right enough Yesindyref2, NO doubt about that, and you’ve omitted to mention Labour supporters who also support independence, but the bottom line is that it’s down to them at the end of the day to align and join SIC or not. Just as Wee Ginger Dug, John Robertson, English for Independence, InformScotland and MANY others could do so too (if they haven’t already). We can’t force them. The decision is theirs.
I can see the strength of getting the brains / talent / motivators of independence under one umbrella group to co-ordinate the grass roots in Scotland. Pooling and sharing. Better Together.
Catalonia has the Assemblea Nacional Catalana (ANC) co-ordinating absolutely EVERYTHING from top to bottom. They’ve got their act together which involves left, middle and right wing political parties. If they CAN do it we CAN do it. Or are we too small, poor and stupid in comparison to them to deal with this, LOL?
But hey you still haven’t answered my question. If not SIC? Who? More than anything who is going to co-ordinate the show in Scotland taking into account that we are running out of time now?
maybe i am guilty of not puting stu campbells name on the ist twice?
i’ll just awa’ an kill masel’
schrodingers cat
There are degrees of exasperation mate, conviviality goes a long way. 😉
@cat
That wasn’t directed at you by the way, nor anyone specific, it’s just one of those generalised wtf’s.
Thanks for taking the trouble to put together a list.
Now I’m off back to watch more DC’s Legends of Tomorrow which curiously has an advert:
“SHAZAM to explore new Citroen C3″.
Funny coincidence, frankly.
“NO doubt about that, and you’ve omitted to mention Labour supporters who also support independence,”
No I haven’t, they’re on the list – “labforindy”. Read the page I linked to! I read it weeks ago, and keep an eye on it, frankly. Does that answer your question?
ok, i take it all back geeo,
i promise to be more convivial in future
i canny win, im tired, and im going to bed
l8rz
Nite nite cat, don’t let the bed mice bite!
Oh wow..!!
My post was posted in a humerous manner, it PRAISED the destructive powers of the Rev’s pen/keyboard.
Shroedingers cats list was not up while i was writing and posting my post.
I completely fail to see what part of my post was me being a “prick” or “intent on destroying the cohesion on this thread”.
Only one person being a prick here, and it aint me.
Cat will simply be getting ignored by me from now on, if others think i am not 100% behind independence just tell me and i am done contributing on here.
@ schrodingers cat says at 1:11 am … ”Petra many of those on this list are in SIC. If one of them wins, perhaps it will be the shot in the arm SIC needs??”
Thanks SC for taking the time to compile a list on here. Remembering of course, as you will, that some would be totally adverse to becoming a leader at all.
Your list (with many exempt for one reason or another) reminds us that we have MANY ABSOLUTELY brilliant Scots who could lead us out of the mire and they’re not on the list YET.
We also have many brilliant Scots on here, and elsewhere, who are working their butts off in their own way but are just waiting for that Clarion Call. And that’s what puts the wind right up Westminster’s drawers. Their time is well and truly UP and don’t they know it.
I just wish more than anything Sean Connery was leading this fight. He could have done it for us, imo.
@ yesindyref2 says at 2:08 am … “Petra says … NO doubt about that, and you’ve omitted to mention Labour supporters who also support independence.”
”No I haven’t, they’re on the list – “labforindy”. Read the page I linked to! I read it weeks ago, and keep an eye on it, frankly. Does that answer your question?”
NO! You haven’t answered my question at ALL, yesindyref2. You don’t seem to be too keen on SIC, FAR from it, so once again I ask you who do you suggest co-ordinates the Yesser movement if not SIC?
geeo
Just for clarity, no I don’t doubt your intentions. I have been wrong though. 😉
I’ve looked into Anas’ cold dead yaks, and saw fear.
Might be me turning to stare at the soft lad as we passed as he drove his swanky Range Rover down John Lewis Carpark spiral as I was going up, and loudly exclaiming to eldest daughter in passenger seat, “that’s yon f*(£!N& B Sarwar”.
He didn’t need to be an expert lipreader to get the drift. !
Daughter not impressed. 🙂
Is this Pakistani mass sign up/block vote thing real ?
Not a good look if.
What puzzles me is why?
What kind of twisted narcissist pays for the privilege of being shown to be a fully inflated balloon every week at FMQ’s?
‘Do you love me now Daddy ?’ *
Maybe Leonard could counter with a white settler crowdfunder.
He’s stumped for a touche to the famous curry night’s though.
Mushy peas ?
What a choice!
List vote.
Eck. Who else ?, and now he’s off the leash…
Add to list. Frankie Boyle. *
@defo
I second Frankie Boyle. Wouldn’t surprise me if he won.
YES had humour and fun and happiness and enthusiasm and laughter, and I think that was one of its biggest assets. Five even.
Aye Right!
Suddenly we need leaders iy?
Get a fkin grip 🙂
@Cat
This isn’t a dig at you mate. Btw, I like lists though I wouldn’t want to be on one. 🙂
http://enculturation.net/6.1/intro
Eh’ll dae it then 🙂
Indeed. Good morning, night. Hey, I agree ronnie anderson ~
Could go for a Dynamic Duo.. Elaine C. Smith with..
..Gregor’s oot, SO howsabout Limmy!
They would be familiar faces for us People of Glasgow.
(Our largest City of 603,000+ people… and beyond).
Cheers for compiling the list Cat, was a good idea 🙂
‘Pours everyone a wee hauf cup of Yogi-Yogi Tchai’
And now, a song… there’s a wind a riding in..:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZTYjTc2Buc
nae bather Cactus
eh’ll dae it 😉
Fair enough, ye have ma vote William of Wallace.
Aye.
@ Cactus
Who am I to lead a man like you eh?
@ Cactus
Who am I to lead a man like you Cactus eh?
Fair doos William, then I offer ye ma hand of equal being.
@ Cactus
Eh am not worthy o yir hand. You lead the dance my friend.
Lead the dance Cactus 🙂 And I will follow you 🙂
I didn’t get any takers either William. 😉
BESIDES CONVIVIALITY:
Paradoxes in being ‘at ease’ with diversity in a Copenhagen district
https://www.degruyter.com/downloadpdf/j/njmr.2016.6.issue-1/njmr-2016-0002/njmr-2016-0002.pdf
Communities of Resistance: Resistance is not futile
https://www.tni.org/en/briefing/communities-resistance-resistance-not-futile
Community Development: Traditions of Practice and Contemporary Contexts
https://research-repository.griffith.edu.au/bitstream/handle/10072/36596/67368_1.pdf?sequence=1
Equal People of Scotland to the dancefloor…
YOUR ayesong.
Here’s one narrated by Richard Leonard:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onqYNO9WQkU
(there’s a bit of Rik Mayall in him too)
Ain’t it all a cure for depressing times.
The times passes… 🙂
Morning Cameron, hope ye can make it for the 11th Nov 🙂
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmb7TU0OrOI
Ah ha ah ha ha splurgle
Good splurgle!
A dedication to anti-establishment-Anas…
Wot wot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4hTi-v_ry8
Genius series.
Back to the real world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOtMizMQ6oM
Never trust a dentist!
Yes indeed. Well, I have managed to infiltrate the ranks and smuggle out this startling footage of both candidates making their pitch to Scottish Labour (Scotland) Branch. I’m not sure which is which, but then I don’t give a hoot. Nor do they it seems!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgK95V5iWJE
I guess voting Yes to independence could be promoted a bit like the ‘new status-quo’. After all, Scotland would be the one with ALL the options / choices. So to say holding an even ground. Might even help persuade more of the soft nos and undecideds to Vote Yes too.
But by voting the other way… there are no choices, no options. no nothin’
South of the border and perimeter, they’re heading for lockdown:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZY11GZH-Vc
iScotland… the safe option.
No fracking domes.
Hey to all of the people reading Wings in different time zones.
Going’s good.. it’s William Wallace wae Elaine C Smith.
Good night, morning.
@ronnie anderson
Thanks for sharing fella. That’s a powerful piece.
That Scotland is well worth the effort. 🙂
Cactus @ 5.51 am
Its breezy o’clock here and later to become windy o’clock! Think this here East is still in your West time zone =) And to all our outer time zone readers good morning or night night depending on where you are! Thank you for dropping in =)
I’ll dance with you guys if you’re still up for it!
Like your take Cactus, that Indy Scotland is the ‘New Status Quo’ with all possibilities and choices ahead 🙂 THAT is worth promoting. Good thinking 🙂
Folks go back and read this : ronnie anderson @ 11.41 pm
Thank you Ronnie for giving us Mark Frankland’s thoughts =)
Goosebumps and tears 🙂
I do hope Martha and her sons choose to come to Scotland, they will be so welcome =)
Ronnie, you and Mark make me proud to be Scottish x
@ Ghillie 7.28am and @ ronnie Anderson 11.41pm
What a fantastic piece from Mark Frankland, so moving. Yep ‘goosebumps and tears’ I had to read it twice. Worthy of Phantom Power’s attention? Worthy of our ‘list’?
Why isn’t Tasmina Ahmed-Sheik on there? She’s ‘on tour’ with Alex Salmond’s ‘Salmond Unleashed’ show by the looks of her twitter. Not an MP at the moment, female, Asian and can be a bit feisty!
Another day of great British unity and leadership.
Imagine our britnat BBC led tory roaster UK media, confronting an SNP gov churning out this level of staggering bullshit everyday.
Brexit
The Observer
MPs move to block May from signing ‘no deal’ Brexit
Cross-party group draws up plans to make it impossible for PM to allow Britain to crash out of the EU without a deal
usual Graun waffle ending with,
“Meanwhile, ministers are rushing through a vote on treatment of nuclear material in a move that will allow them to begin spending on the new IT systems and inspectors needed should Britain remain outside Euratom, the EU-wide nuclear regulatory body.”
UK’s the world’s nuke dump now too. Makes you proud.
Its interesting watching britnat culture aka Lord Foulkes, a kind of virtual house of yoon horror ride, through neo fascist teamGB. But he doesnt like Mhairi Black at all, maybe just because she’s in Westminster via elections, unlike Lord Foulkes. Must be such a pain in a huge parliament like that one, having to endlessly deal with 800+ unelected tory roasters down the corridor.
From,
George Foulkes? @GeorgeFoulkes Oct 10
I may have missed something but what are @MhairiBlack ‘s real achievements?
to,
George Foulkes Retweeted
Scotland in Union?Verified account @scotlandinunion Oct 11
You can make the SNP Government listen and stop a second referendum by giving us your support – sign up here:
The apathetic folk in the North East who can’t even bother to go out and vote and let the Tories in. 30% turnout. They don’t give a damn about their community. They would rather sit back while the Tories destroy the NE economy. Ruined the Oil sector with 40% tax since Jan 2016. Now ruining the Whisky industry doing the same thing. Deliberately ruining the Scottish economy. Scotland is losing £Billions to Tory high taxes. Over £49Billion. Since 2010. That is just from £4Billion oil tax revenues and £3Billion a year tax evasion. £7Billion a year. Plus the rest. Some whisky companies make vast profits and tax evade. Pay no tax at all yet use up all Scottish resources. HMRC not fit for purpose.
The SNP has done so much for the NE invested £Billions after the unionists neglected the infrastructure for over thirty years. They have nearly completed the AWPR which will not only help the NE but the whole Scottish economy. Expanded the airport for international direct flights. Cheaper, easier and quicker. More cost and environmental effective. Got the wind turbine in the bay initiated producing more cheap energy with environmental spin offs. Expanded the harbour. They are now getting the CCS programme on stream at Peterhead. Bringing even more jobs. After the unionists at Westminster reneged on the proposals.The SNP has invested £Billions into the NE after years of neglect by unionists.
Yet the uninitiated still go out and vote for the Tories who have ruined the NE economy. The MSP is a total hypocrite. A multimillionaire who gets massive subsidies, Opens a new Doctor’s surgery at Crimond. Pouncing about promoting himself little hypocrite. He thinks sick folk getting their prescription and unaffordable freebies. Screwed up little bastard. Tries to hide his vast subsidies. Greedy little bastard. Con man. Liar.
Techters conservative brainwashed by the P&J/EE. That unionist bastard Thomson ruining the NE economy. Publishing lie after lie with impunity. That bastard has ruined the NE economy. Done more to help the Tories unionist than any other freak. Left the NE economy being ruined by crooked corrupt unionists. Thomson couldn’t even run a football club. A disaster. Yet uses the profits gleaned from trying to ruin the NE economy to prop up an ill managed Dundee Football Club
Thomson the unionist scourge of the NE. Dundee has been totally renovated by a SNP council. A successful transformation. That is the envy of others. While unionists in Aberdeen destroy the local economy. Waste £1.2Billion getting the City in debt. Spending unavailable non mandated money on grotesque projects of no value. Ruining the City Centre totally against people’s wishes. They have ruined the City. A total and utter disgrace. Rumours are the P&J organisation is to move into the hideous non mandated grotesque monstrosity. At what rates. For supporting the crooked unionists. Graft and corruption. Total corruption. They should be put in jail.
What is it
Scotland was not united with England to form the United Kingdom it was appropriated. The many synonyms for this verb are revelatory of how we as a nation were ‘liberated’ of our identity and our self-respect and our culture re-formed to suit. It was a colonialising, imperialist scam. Mr Sarwar, you are part of that scam. Shame on you!
What is it with folk and lists. Why does their have to be a leader. It should be the SNP leading it at any rate. Their members put up most of the money. Instead of letting an ineffectual numptie in the top spot.
Why would anyone suggest a green. They are the most unpopular Party with the lest votes. People do not like them. They are a small minority pressure group with no power. The SNP are greener than the Greens who renege in all green policies. Waste public money like their is no tomorrow. Try to steal support from the SNP in any devious way they can. They could cost Scotland Independence. They are so unpopular. They have so little support for most of their nonsensical policies. They even try to play off the SNP against the unionists to try and make political gain. Collude with the unionists and their dumb figures they can’t even analyse. They can’t count or read a balance sheet. They talk the talk but do not walk the walk. Do not practice what they preach. Collude with unionists and renege on green policies. Total hypocrites. There are more holes in their policies than a sieve. They lie and claim every green policies the SNP introduces as their own. They are a load of pompous little gits.
You just need to see the 6 white middle class males sitting there in Holyrood to know they renege on all their policies. All talk and no action. Why would you have any of them lead an Independence Campaign unless you wanted to lose. It did no favours for the last IndyRef organisation to have immature, naive Ron Greer at the centre of the organisation. He was working against the SNP at every avaiable opportunity on a big overrated SNP funded salary. A total amateur he could not organise anything. Deciding who could help or not? What the hell does d it have to do with him. They even dissed the Rev who has done more to promote Independence than any other person.
How to run a dysfunctional strategy letting the greens in. Promoted above their station and their abilities. Why anyone should promote them to lead the next Independence Ref is a mystery unless they want to lose. They would renege on Independence as well. Only using it to promote themselves.
limmy
brian cox
Hardeep Singh Kohli (great call)
Sir Harry Burns
Duncan Hamilton
Alan Cummings (unlikely, he lives in usa)
GA Ponsonby (londoncalling)
math Campbell (EngScots4Yes)
Elaine C Smith
Lesley Riddoch,
David Hayman
Gordon Mackintyre Kemp
Alan Bissit
WGD
Kevin Bridges
Richard Murphy
Stu campbell
craig murray
Robin Macalpine
snp
Jeanne Freeman
alex salmond
angus robertson
john nicolson
It’s not leaders who win victories, it’s foot soldiers.
https://www.euractiv.com/section/future-eu/news/in-athens-macron-outlines-roadmap-for-european-democratic-revival/
Think it would be worthwhile petitioning the SNP to try to have some of these Democratic Conventions in Scotland? Or at least make the attempt.
The aim is to reform the EU and correct the perception it is undemocratic, but given Scotland’s pro-European democracy is being ignored and our constitution brazenly flouted, perhaps Scotland would have something more to gain from such a convention happening here.
Since the UK might be described as at the sharp end of European “disintegration”, my instincts are that Europe might be persuaded to throw some of its considerable weight and resource into protecting Scotland’s democracy and wider European goals. Perhaps money, influence, focus, exposure, constructive and enlightening progressive debate, international exposure… the potential seems limitless, and can be whatever we make it.
Organised with some sophistication and diligence, such a Convention might be a tremendous opportunity to educate those Scots outside the bubble all about Scotland’s existing constitution, our sovereignty denied, and the routine and commonplace abuse of our rights.
I would encourage people to contact your SNP MP and MSP’s and lobby them to secure at least one EU Democratic Convention in Scotland, and really push the boat out when it happens.
schrodingers convivial cat says to ken501
no idea what yer havering about ken, but i’ve added Patrick Harvey to the list as requested 🙂
Limmy
brian cox
Hardeep Singh Kohli (great call)
Sir Harry Burns
Duncan Hamilton
Alan Cummings (unlikely, he lives in usa)
GA Ponsonby (londoncalling)
math Campbell (engscot4Yes)
Elaine C Smith
Lesley Riddoch,
David Hayman
Gordon Mackintyre Kemp
Alan Bissit
WGD
Kevin Bridges
Richard Murphy
Stu campbell
craig murray
Robin Macalpine
snp
Jeanne Freeman
alex salmond
angus robertson
john nicolson
greens
patrick harvey
Hey schrodingers cat you might as well take the Rev off that list for two main reasons, firstly he won’t fly for a large part of the Yes movement and secondly he already has a vital role to play.
Sorry to be O/T
But have just watched Grayling being interviewed on the Andrew Marr Show
I found that Grayling lied his head of on practically every question about brexit
Stuart should fact check the interview
Grayling played down and claimed that lorry parks wouldn’t have to be built as, quote there is already ‘operation stack’ when there are problems at Dover. @operation Stack’ is a temporary measure for parking trucks on the M2 (to Dover/Folkestone) in events such as ferry strikes or French strikes at Calais. It is most definitely not a permanent large truck parks at Hull, Harwich, Dover, Folkestone and Poole. Grayling claimed that ONLY Dover would be affected which was a lie.
Grayling claimed that the ‘hard border’ between Norway and Sweden, did not affect trade as trucks did not stop at the border. That was a lie, as trucks do stop for customs check, however passenger cars travel freely
Grayling claimed that air travel would not be affected as the UK is part of Open Skies agreement, that was also a lie as the Open Skies agreement is an EU agreement which the UK is currently covered with, but the UK on leaving the EU will leave and not be party to the Open Skies agreement.
Grayling claimed that supermarkets like Sainsbury’s would be sourcing more food produce from UK farmers, which is half baked as Uk farmers do not produce enough of anything, which is why the UK has to import food.
Perhaps Grayling is expecting the War time measure of digging up every park an open land to produce more potatoes? Think production of Oranges, Lemons, Peaches could be a problem, never mind the additional labour required.
Marr of course hadn’t a clue that Grayling was lying his head off
Paula Rose says:
Hey schrodingers cat you might as well take the Rev off that list
————————
I’d agree with that paula, however,this is the long list of all possible candidates.
once complete we will indeed review it and ask the possible candidates if they wish to be put forward to the short list.
i think at that point the rev will agree with you and ask not to be put forward.
Peter Bell?
Just spotted a headline on an opinion piece in the Independent.
” The Brexit negotiations are a game of chicken between a juggernaut and a mini – and Britain is the mini “
I find it amusing that they feel the need to point out which side is the Mini !
Mind you, there are probably some folks who are so immersed in the exceptionalism and entitlement of UKOK that they need that pointed out to them!
It highlights how useless Marr is that he didn’t correct Grayling”s lies. Either he doesn’t know or is petrified seeing his cosy world crumbling and doesn’t know how to deal with it.
The other possibilities are he is well past dealing with difficult political situations or he thinks the BBC isn’t part of the UK.
But in a way it doesn’t matter now, they are all tied together and equally culpable for Brexit.
galamcennalath
On the subject of Minis: BMW is in discussions with China to build it’s Minis there and moving from Oxford.
Ronnie@11.41am
What a great piece Ronnie! Have copied and I’ll share everywhere.
Its got to be Scotland’s First Minister Nicola Sturgeon. This kind of talk will never be seen on any beeb gimp network but at least at ref2, Scots will be offered the chance to see a future of Scottish self government, still very much contributing to the rUK.
Radio shortbread Brewer has ditched the usual ‘anything in the world but not Scottish stuff’ agenda this morning for K. McAskill and J. Sillars interviews and in addition M. Curran telling us what the papers say.
Jings! SNP very bad and Indi2 receding into the horizon 🙂
@ronnie anderson says: 14 October, 2017 at 11:41 pm:
“Mark Frankland an Englishman living in Dumfries and running the local food-bank has written this moving piece — makes me so proud to be Scottish too! Welcome Mark — you are a true Scot! ?????? (kettle on and coffee time read).”
Great read Ronnie – and thanks for sheering.
Strangely, although I was born before WWII, but I was never fooled by the Hollywood propaganda.
Even as a wee laddie I knew the truth of how the World, including all three Americas, (North, South and Central), had been enslaved by Europeans. Not only that but I had never bought into the idea that the USA had come to, “Save our bacon”, in WWII.
So here’s a wee true story from post WWII that involved a wee me and my mother’s Scottish Bbrn Aunt who had, pre-WWII, emigrated to the USA and married a USAsian. The couple were visiting their relatives in Scotland. This happened in the very early 1950s.
Mum & Dad were driving them around Scotland showing them the sights. We had a Bedford, “Workobus”, (a mini-bus version of the better known, “Dormobile”) :-
https://farm8.static.flickr.com/7474/15851122011_dfa1e8dc37_b.jpg
I had become thoroughly fed-up with this USAsian Great-Uncle guy always, without exception, disparaging everything and anything Scottish.
You all know the kind of thing, “Call that a Castle? We have holiday bungalows bigger than that in the US of A.” This at Edinburgh Castle.
“Huh! Call that a waterfall – you should see Niagara”, at the Falls of Glomach:-
https://www.nts.org.uk/Visit/Falls-Of-Glomach
And so it went on. In those days I was travelling every working day to Rosyth Dockyard across the old Rail bridge as I was a Dockyard Apprentice living in Esinburgh.
On this day we were on our way to the Highlands and that meant crossing the Forth by the old Queensferry ferry next to the Forth Rail Bridge and, as Usual, Great Uncle was on his best form disparaging everything Scottish. His latest line was how quickly the great American workers built things like, “Skyscrapers”, bridges and the, “Great Grande Coulee Dam”:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HckmcNP19Sk
As we came over the rise in the road and the rail bridge came into view Great Uncle said, “Gee! What’s that little thing? We have bigger footbridges than that in the States”.
I piped up with, “I dunnow, Great Uncle – it wasn’t there when I came home from the Dockyard yesterday”
Needless to say I was met with complete silence by both the Yanks and my own family. Mum & Dad were, (not to put too fine a point to it), best pleased with what they saw as disrespect for our guests.
OT FOR A SUNDAY. Independence Live. Archived from the SNP Autumn Conference on Tuesday.
In the Foyer for almost five hours chatting to members,and lots of coffee. 🙂
Livestream.
Scrolling to 23:00 I found this group, SNP Socialists speaking to Independence Live. Very interesting.
Lots of other people stopping by and chatting. 🙂
http://tinyurl.com/ycbuhnyh
PS. Independence Live are doing a CrowdFunder:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/autumn-livestreams-2017#/
I first noticed this grassroots tiny band of Streamers two or three years ago.
Doing a great job on a shoestring.
O/T
Sillars takes the Beebs thirty pieces of silver and appears on Sunday Politics Scotland to attack the SNP.
Would you vote Labour no I’m a member of the SNP Jim Sillars.
Going by that interview I don’t think so.
during indyref1, alex salmond chose blair jenkins to lead and launch yes scotland, a cross/non party group to lead and organise the yes movement.
the raison d’etre for yesscotland was to highlight the fact that a yes vote was not a vote for the snp, or snp policy, it was a vote to empower scots to decide their future.
this was a demonstrable truth and why the unionist media spent the entire campaign trying to conflate the YES/SNP
The snp reacted to this by removing the snp logo and branding from all yes literature, (even alex stopped using SNP in his title !) and The SNP became the voldemort of indyref1 campaign.
It should be pointed out tho, SNP members made up the vast majority of yes activists.
Recently, peter bell wrote an article puting forward the idea that the SNP should run the yes movement in indyref2. I have some sympathy with this view, but it does assume that alex salmond didnt run yes scotland. Also, the final decision about which tactic will be used in indyref2 rests with Nicola and I would point out that Alex Salmond, Jeane Freeman and Tommy Shephard(added to list) are part of and members of SIC. I think this highlights the direction of travel and nicol’s thinking on this issue.
whether they would want alex or any snp big beast to lead it is unknown. thats why i have included them on tthe long list. I’ll seek clarification on this issue when creating the short list
the unionisat
BBC on full attack mode this morning. Very creepy.
Col says:
15 October, 2017 at 11:57 am
BBC on full attack mode this morning. Very creepy.
Creepy I would say its a bloody disgrace
Shinty says:
Peter Bell?
done
Peter Bell
Limmy
Brian Cox
Hardeep Singh Kohli
Sir Harry Burns
Duncan Hamilton
Alan Cummings (unlikely, he lives in usa)
GA Ponsonby (londoncalling)
math Campbell (engscot4Yes)
Elaine C Smith
Lesley Riddoch,
David Hayman
Gordon Mackintyre Kemp
Alan Bissit
WGD
Kevin Bridges
Richard Murphy
Stu Campbell
Craig Murray
Robin Macalpine
snp
Jeanne Freeman
Alex Salmond
Angus Robertson
John Nicolson
Tommy Shephard
greens
Patrick Harvey
@ heedtracker Thankee for much of muchness , ive shared that Video on scot2.scot & no doubt it will travel further through the Yes sites & I hope the Wingers share it beyond our shores .
The msm is full of plans by MPs to propose amendments which will make ‘no deal’ mean no Brexit, enshrine the transition period of two years with EU laws in place, or even force an EURef2 on the outcome.
This will be a big test of true Tory intentions.
If such amendments are voted against by the vast majority of Tory MPs and a majority achieved to defeat them, then leaving the door open to a shitty Brexit implies they are comfortable or even happy with such an outcome.
In particular, how our ‘Scottish’ Tory MPs vote will be revealing. A WoS article there, I would think.
Col says:
Probably not coincidence that an IndyRef2 within this parliament was effectively confirmed at the SNP conference.
Shite Brexit -> IndyRef2 -> possibility of no more UK -> no more BBC
@Meg merrilees says: 14 October, 2017 at 3:53 pm:
“I totally agree that we have someone – i.e. Nicola Sturgeon who ticks all the boxes to lead us into the next referendum but she herself has told us- the people – to get on with the cause; effectively while she gets on with government and with building the foundations of our future independent nation i.e. the investment bank, the new power company.”
Indeed Nicola has said that – and she is right to do so. However, there is another, but linked, view expressed by people in the YES movement. It amounts to, “Don’t just stand there – do something.”
I have to agree with that – and for good reason. The greatest strength of the YES movement was that it WAS NOT an SNP, or indeed any particular political party. It was a spontaneous and unsynchronised movement that was actually a nationwide movement with no overall national leadership. Yessers, from all parties and none just got together and got on with the job in hand. There were no, or at least few, interparty backstabbing to be seen.
“I think that the time has come where there has to be a two-pronged attack – if for no other reason than to confuse ‘ the enemy’.”
No one needs, “confuse the enemy”, they are busily employed confusing themselves. We just need to not allow them to confuse us too.
“Just now, if it is all led by the SNP then there is only one body responsible for events and they have to take ALL the flack. Net result is that for even a small matter, Unionists can quickly escalate their grievance into a full on chastisement of the Scottish Government and effectively double their effect.”
Exactly the result that the spontaneous non-party movement of YES had that we saw in the Indy 1. As long as it remained a spontaneous movement with the same aim and no central leadership the movement remained ahead of the game. It left the Yoons with far too many targets to aim at. I believe, perhaps wrongly, it should have remained that way.
After the YES movement attempted to organise as a Scotland wide movement the game changed.
“If we have more than one target, our Government can get on with governing, whilst the separate ‘Independence Committee’ can also get on with their agenda but Unionist will have to think about which of us they mean to attack, effectively weakening their blows.”
Perhaps even an organised committee is in itself a wrong move. A looser arrangement with YES groups setting their own agendas according to local conditions and local issues is the way to go.
ronnie anderson says:
Its interesting to watch, from the north of the planet not from London. That tory renege on carbon capture at Peterhead is an appalling example of how yoon culture really is out the fcuk Scotland up at best. The loss of huge prior Scots research investment, a huge number of skilled jobs… and then they go and vote for a tory sock puppet too.
But then again, look at the beeb gimp propaganda used to sell to the suckas, fleeced sheep doesn’t even come close really.
This one is probably one of the worst examples of corrupt beeb gimps actually are.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-34357804
UK government carbon capture £1bn grant dropped
25 November 2015
From the section Scotland business
The BBC don’t need to go on full attack mode because the SNP lot have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to taxes and government spending.
Liz Rannoch says:
Why isn’t Tasmina Ahmed-Sheik on there?
—————
she is now liz
————
I disagree with much sillars says, espectially fracking, but like the idea of a scottish statoil.
Why did we lose indyref1? apart from the deluge of britnat propaganda, what did we do wrong?
we offered a future that wasnt ours to give, eg the EU and a currency union.
the bbc simply found some greasy eu politician (barrossa) to veto scottish membership and all 3 unionist parties vetoed the suggestion of any currency union.
all bollox of course but this allowed brillo to rubbish the indy scotland vision and then ask about plan B.
we all need to learn to separate our vision of an indy scotland from the real politik of winning indyref2
dont give the unionists anymore open doors, indyref2 is EFTA and a pound scots
Hilary Clinton on Marr this morning made a big issue of the lies told by the Leave campaign.
(Incidentally, Marr mumbled “by both sides” and the Express reported this as a SLAP DOWN. Masters of fake news themselves, the Express.)
Both IndyRef1 and EURef have that in common. The winning side won by lying and making false promises.
In a democracy how do you deal with situations like that?
Firstly, politicians/campaign groups shouldn’t be allowed to undermine the process in that way. How? Well as Clinton said, a free press should highlight dodgy claims. UKOK has little in the way of free press. She blamed a lot of fake news on online sources. Wrong. If anything online UK politics probably represents all sides … it’s newspapers which don’t. Also, of course, the broadcast media isn’t much better.
Secondly … you need a rerun of the referendum after the extent of deceit becomes clear!
http://archive.is/eNSHT
Meanwhile the leader of Ukip Bolton is chasing badgers across dartmoor & strangling them with his bare hands , four hours waiting time at EA in england Badger 1 Idiot 0 .
Derek Henry says:
15 October, 2017 at 12:15 pm
The BBC don’t need to go on full attack mode because the SNP lot have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to taxes and government spending.
Thank you for making my point about yoons and yoon culture in Scotland Derek.
RP
Perhaps even an organised committee is in itself a wrong move. A looser arrangement with YES groups setting their own agendas according to local conditions and local issues is the way to go.
—————————-
I think we already have that, with the natyesreg and the autonomous grass roots nature of the actual yes groups.
indeed, the idea of having a leader of yes2 is less important. apart from the technical difficulty of electing someone, I doubt it will make a big difference to my local yes group.
it really only serves as a starting gun for yes2,
Inspired indeed. The video’s great. A-Ö OF ICELAND
http://www.inspiredbyiceland.com/a-o
Meanwhile the leader of Ukip Bolton is chasing badgers across dartmoor & strangling them with his bare hands , four hours waiting time at EA in england Badger 1 Idiot 0
Poor wee badgers. PETA have a long list of murderous psychopaths that also enjoyed killing small furry animals, like the latest mass murderer in Vegas for example.
If you’re visiting Liverpool, you might get stopped and…
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/hundreds-british-people-stopped-liverpool-13758282
TeamGB, 2017.
“…. indyref2 is EFTA and a pound scots”, …..and a Scottish Government throwing away a sovereign constitutional mandate to assume sovereign powers does not have and overrule the sovereign voice of the people to adopt a position where it cites Brexit as the prime motivation to adopt a policy not only consistent with Brexit, but which actually requires Brexit to happen.
Do you hear that Scotland? Your imminent removal Europe and the loss of your European citizenship will not even be contested.
However, if the SNP policy is now to support Scotland’s exit from Europe, then that is a material change of policy from supporting Scotland’s place in Europe, and they require a democratic mandate that they do not have. I voted for Scotland to remain in Europe, and our government is bound by that sovereign mandate. I voted to give a Scottish Government the mandate to stay in Europe, and thus contest and oppose our removal.
It is a disgrace that the SNP can throw away Scotland’s Sovereign voice, and sweep that breach of our constitutional rights under the carpet, and promote the narrative that the SNP was anti Brexit when it had its own EFTA agenda requiring Brexit to happen.
The issue of EU membership, or the inferior compromise of EFTA, is a stupid and divisive way to headline a defence of Scotland’s interests, when it is the constitutional subjugation of Scotland which is seminal issue of importance when we have the UK Government overruling and ignoring the sovereign voice of the Scottish Electorate.
The SNP is meant to defend us from the worst excesses and unconstitutional improprieties of an out of touch, despotic and undemocratic Westminster, not roll over in subjugation, capitulate over issues of sovereign significance, and excuse that abandonment of constitutional principle by an apologists agenda of “well we just have to make the best of it”.
You now cite Jim Sillars as a turncoat who uses his profile to criticise the SNP and advocate Scotland properly SHOULD leave the EU. If that is considered a betrayal, then it sets an uncomfortable precedent for the SNP who are ostensibly trying to pull off the same manoeuvre, but still hope to capitalise on the votes of EU citizens, foreign nationals and Remainers.
I am a Scot, a nationalist, and a European citizen. You tell me the sovereign independence of my country will be conditional upon a sacred democratic majority, but refer me to a sovereign democracy for which you have shown a selective contempt whenever it suits you. You then have the bloody nerve to berate my comments about the correct and binding legal principles of Scottish sovereignty under Scots law, which are exempt from democratic inconstancy, and infinitely more resolute in defending the sovereign constitution of my country. You just don’t want to be bound by them.
Oh that YES was still an active player in the Constitutional debate, with its good sense and wisdom that YES supporters were a broad Kirk, united as one in their primary objective for Scotland’s Independence, forsaking all other issues as secondary. Divisive issues would not split us, personal aspirations could be held in abeyance for the greater good of our common purpose in Independence, and all could be decided by referendum at a later date. But no. The EFTA Boy Scouts know what’s best.
Fast forward to 2017, and we now have faltering referendum campaign hijacked by pro-leave Eurosceptics who have given primacy to Scotland’s future outside the EU over and above the constitutional sovereignty of the people routinely subjugated by Westminster diktats, and the proper emancipation and restoration of Scottish National Sovereignty.
You disgust me with your chintzy shortlist of preferred leaders for a YES campaign which you have cleft in two, dividing YES Remainers from YES Brexiteers just to suit your own narrow agenda outside the EU. You have committed the great division of policy before the Scottish people have crossed the rubicon of Independence because you could not hold your personal aspirations in abeyance.
You now find yourselves trying to kick start a campaign to deliver the emancipation of Scotland’s constitutional sovereignty having transformed it into democratic referendum on Europe where the only party which supports Scotland’s place in the EU are the Greens. A Yes or No vote now will be determined by a voters disposition towards Europe, and sovereignty as a principle has already been holed below the water line.
Well done you self serving fucking arseholes. You wouldn’t recognise an issue of principle if it fucking bit you. You are no different from the Parcel of Rogues who also found Scotland’s all conquering sovereignty a difficult principle to be bound by, and sold the rest of us out for narrow self interests and personal advancement. May you crawl under the same stone they did.
Alas poor Scotland. Piggy in the middle between the selfish sovereign wannabes of Westminster and Holyrood, and Scotland’s ancient and unique constitutional genius sold out for another generation.
I am inconsolably sad.
“It is a disgrace that the SNP can throw away Scotland’s Sovereign voice.”
Yer breeks are on fire!
That has to be one of the worst instances of grandstanding bullshit I’ve read on Wings.
Well, someone got out of bed on the wrong side today !
@cat
Don’t forget to put Frankie Boyle on the list!
breeks
yer haverin’
awa’ wi’ ye
Petra,
“Michael Fry is VERY Tory leaning don’t forget. Do you read his blogs on the National?”
“Tory leaning” writers being given space in the “independence supporting” The National?
If it is doing it for “balance” can one of its lobbyists here remind it that there are more than enough Tory rags circulating in Scotland.
The belief in the right of Scotland to be an independent nation is the exclusive right of NOBODY. Not the SNP, not Rise, not SSP, not Solidarity, not RIC, not Greens, not YES Tories, not Labour for Indy, not the left, not the right, not the centre.
Some people should wind their necks in and accept that political affiliation and policy preference is secondary to the primary belief of independence for Scotland.
https://twitter.com/YesTories
http://www.commonspace.scot/articles/10535/labour-indy-doubles-membership-and-will-take-yes-case-every-branch-scotland#
Brian Doonthetoon @ 21:09,
That CommonSpace article about Labour for Indy is well out of date these days. I’m not so sure those self-declared Corbyn supporters for indy are so very keen now they believe they’re within sniffing distance of power in London.
That’s the trouble with Labour, you can never trust where the leadership – any leadership – will go once they get in charge. And their faithful woolly flock will follow regardless.
It would be great if an ever-larger number of Labour supporters continued to move over to “yes” and caused their leadership in Scotland to do a U-turn, but fat chance on both counts, I reckon. If it was a wild hope chez CommonSpace back at the beginning of the year, it’s a complete fantasy now in the autumn.
Instead we have to endure hoary old tosser Foulkes criticising Mhairi Black and re-tweeting Tory fat cat operation Scotland in Union. It’s that stupid.
Hi Robert.
The point of my post was that it is not ONLY SNP supporters who believe that Scotland should be independent, as certain posters seem to suggest.