Where’s north from here?
Posted on
January 06, 2013 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
You might enjoy this line from approximately the Guardian’s 400th hopeful “Come on, Labour, you can do it!” article of the last couple of years. We’ve actually read some pretty interesting analysis on the possible outcomes of the 2015 UK general election recently, but this bit of content-free space-filler from Jackie Ashley wasn’t among it. The second sentence was something to cherish, though:
“2012 was the Olympics; 2014 will be European elections and the run-up to the general election.”
Nothing else of any interest happening in the United Kingdom in 2014, then, Jackie? Such as, y’know, it perhaps ceasing to exist? Still, those European elections eh?
(Should I do soundtrack links for all headlines, d’you think?)
Does this mean that the metropolitan London media have written off Scotland’s place in the UK already? Do they think independence is a fait accompli? Or do they think that it will be a cake-walk for the No campaign? I feel confused…
The good news is Wings, Newsnet, Bella Caledonia, National Collective, Caledonian Mercury and a panoply of others (I even use BBC Scotlandshire for news before checking the BBC Scotland version) are springing up to supply us with news and editorials reflective of the Scottish political and cultural scene.
Lord knows the Scotsman and the Herald can’t, let alone the Guardian.
That’s par for the course with the Guardian and their commentators. There’s a giant elephant in the room that they simply won’t acknowledge. There seems to have been a rash of articles though about the LibDems recently. I wonder if they’re actually thinking of backing some Labour-LD coalition. Or whether they’re trolling their own readers. Certainly, it generates comments as all those who utterly hate the LDs howl with derision below the line. Reading UK articles there is like entering a parallel universe in which Scotland simply does not exist.
Meanwhile at NNS there’s this:
http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-economy/6519-nicola-sturgeon-unveils-plans-for-a-fairer-welfare-system-for-scotland
This is the sort of thing we need to see more of.
Sad fact is that no one really cares down there and believe that we will vote no anyway so it’s just not worth talking about.
Interestingly one of my Northern Irish suppliers was talking to me about the referendum and he said “what’s the point in the referndum because you’ll all vote no anyway”. I immediately told him not to count his chickens!!
It seems that the rest of the UK is turning a blind eye to it as they are told it’s a foregone conclusion that we will stay put.
Johann Lamont is a contestant on Miss World. She’s doing well until she’s judged on her personality. Instead of wishing for world peace, she rants about ending Universal Benefits pish for Scotland.
@Rabb
It seems that the rest of the UK is turning a blind eye to it as they are told it’s a foregone conclusion that we will stay put.
It would be a shame to ignore this issue since if Scotland votes YES, the period of negotiations would be a once-in-a-lifetime chance for people in the remaining parts of the UK to think about the sort of state they want. They could look at PR, the House of Lords, strengthening the powers of the Welsh Assembly, introducing English devolution or an English parliament, etc. But if they assume Scotland will vote no, and we vote yes, then they will not have laid the groundwork for a proper debate about their constitutional arrangements. Then again, I don’t think the British establishment wants the population to ask these questions. The British left needs to wake up.
“Nothing else of any interest happening in the United Kingdom in 2014, then, Jackie?”
I’m not entirely sure why the idea of the UK dissolving back into its original components has generated so little interest in England.
I think a large part of it is because they can’t distinguish the boundaries between England and the rest of Britain. The idea of England breaking up is simply one which doesn’t exist for them. For us it would be similar to a Sutherland independence movement. They’re eccentrics doing it for a joke or for more cash right?
Ysabelle,
You are spot on. rUK is totally oblivious and walking blindly into a constitutional crisis. It’s sad but by the grace of god we’ll have voted Yes and will be well on the way to a fresh start.
I have a lot of family, dear friends and colleagues in England and I’m struggling to wake them up to this. As I said before, they are totally convinced by the MSM down there that Scottish independence is a total non starter and nothing to get bothered about.
In true Wullie Rennie style “What can you do eh?”
They are blissfully ignorant of most things about Scotland. It’s a large/small country scenario. Despite us all being part of the equal UK!
As Pierre Trudeau once said, “It’s like being in bed with an Elephant”, when describing Canada’s relationship with the USA.
Hi Ysabelle
Everything you’ve said so far is so true! I have a son who works in London and he says that if it wasn’t for being in contact with me or coming on to sites like this he would be ignorant about what is going on in Scotland on most matters, never mind the referendum in 2014! He tells me that Scotland is virtually ignored in the London MSM! And, when the 2014 referendum is brought up, it is told in such a negative and disingenuous way that most people there believe that a No outcome is inevitable.
Either the Establishment and its MSM mouthpiece really do believe that Scotland will vote No in 2014 thus there being no point in even bringing it to the populace’s attention or, the Establishment and its MSM are deliberately withholding information and lying to its readership and viewers. I have a strong opinion on which option is the most likely…!
So then, fast-forward to the day after the Scottish independence referendum and the outcome is a very-soon-to-be independent Scotland, and a very-soon-to-be rUK. What will happen in England (and Wales and N. Ireland)? An unanswerable question at the moment, of course. But it has to be uncertain, at least. Will a population which has been kept ignorant, lied to and told ‘There’ll always be a(n) (England) UK’ take it all in their stride, sigh, say, ‘Ah, well..Good luck Scotland!’ and just continue as before or, as is most likely, not? I’m pretty sure it will be a ‘not’, myself. What form that ‘not’ takes is anyone’s guess although I don’t see it being anything other than not good (for the rUK).
There could also be the possibility that Westminster have some kind of legal loophole built into the Edinburgh agreement that will render any Yes vote in 2014 as irelevent? They done it to us in 79 so perhaps that’s the reason for their lax attitude? Do they know something we don’t?
Doug the Dug says “I think a large part of it is because they can’t distinguish the boundaries between England and the rest of Britain.”
Spot on – there was a ‘Simon Harries’ from Cambridge debating on the Herald forums at tiresome length, presume it was his shift to do it, who said yesterday that
“I see [Scotland] it as an integral part of my country. On my frequent visits to Scotland I do not think of myself as being a privileged visitor to a colonial entity but as being totally at home in my own country”
An ‘integral part’ 😉
Dal Riata
After the YES vote there will be a viscous anti-scottish backlash whipped up by the MSM, for having the impertinence to vote to run our own affairs.
Won’t do the bastards any good. Once they realise 90% of the oil is lost and Westminster has to negotiate, it’ll probably topple the government after they realise an Argentinian like invasion isn’t possible.
Indeed, people beyond our borders are convinced that a NO vote is certain. They include those directly to the south and pretty much the rest of the world, and it is galling to know that the empirical evidence supports that consensus view.
We should take care not to believe our own publicity. It IS the case that most polling does indeed show only a third of the electorate favor independence.
Of course that does not mean that the remaining two thirds favor the status quo – they don’t – but that is how it is spun by the Unionists and their running dogs in the press and broadcast media. Nor does it mean that current attitudes are immutable, they are not.
Nevertheless, for now, there’s ample justification for believing that Scots will reject independence. While we can with some justification, infer and divine hidden trends, and postulate on the true meaning of data, the fact must be faced that meta analyses of public opinion show no substantive advance in the number of Scots who say they are of a mind to vote for independence.
And that’s the stone cold truth.
Rev Stuart,
Steady on with the speed of articles,I can barely keep up,
and I defiantly cant if Morag appears in the comments, with the “bit between her teeth ”
can you not go into print, and sell it along with say “The Big Issue”, and call
it the “Scottish Issue”.
Although this is a great site,along with some others, it is getting the message out
to the public at large is where the battle has to be won.
@ Christian Wright
Perhaps. I think there are other things to consider though. Between the yes camp, and the no camp, there are probably a substantial number of people just getting on with life and paying little heed. The kind who put invitations from Mori to answer question in the recycling without reading them. I suspect high majorities of people who passionately believe in either cause will vote, but this middle section is an unknown quantity.
100% guesswork, but just to suggest it as something to think about. You make an excellent point that there is a need to speak to people beyond the converted.
@Christian Wright
I think you have hit the nail on the hammer. Independence has not consistently polled over 35%, let alone 40%. People say the day after we vote Yes, as if it is somehow a given, a certainty. It is far from it. I went on the independence march last September and it was a very good, positive event. However, lets be honest, the attendance would not have beaten a decent sized crowd at an SPL match.
It is great that almost all of us on this site are motivated Yes supporters. However, as Christian rightly says there is a danger of believing our own publicity. My concerns over the referendum are that fear will win out, people will not want to take the chances and challenges of independence, and will instead believe that we have to suffer in the union. I also believe that a large section of the middle class have brought into Britishness in a big way and it will be extremely hard to win them over. I have read that Blair Jenkins is very confident of getting a Yes vote. I hope he will be able to back this up.
@ronald alexander mcdonald
Re “…anti-Scottish backlash whipped up by the MSM”
Yes, that is a distinct possibility! And yet. When the populace of the rUK, especially those outside the ‘comfortably well-off’, do, at last, find out they’ve been had and they’re ‘stuck’ with what they’ve got governmental-wise it could well mean’finally, the end of empire’. Whether that is by peaceful means or not only time will tell.
@Christian Wright
True enough. It can be easy to forget just how many ‘No’s and ‘undecided’s there are when you come to pro-independence sites and almost(!) all are ‘Yes’. It’s going to be a tough fight to get a majority of voters over the Yes 50%+1-line, especially when faced with the ‘weapons’ at the disposal of the ‘No’ camp, but if, and hopefully, when that positive outcome is achieved it will be one that will have been attained by the PEOPLE of Scotland, people like you, and me, and every other person who is, and will be, doing all they can to bring about Scotland’s independence. How good will that feel!
Anyway, where’s Scottish_Skier for some up-to-date poll and data information? Always cheers me up with some positive and well-argued stuff he does!
@ Derick
“they can’t distinguish the boundaries between England and the rest of Britain”
That is it in a nutshell. I used to work in London, for my sins, and you hear more down there about anywhere else apart from Scotland. That is except for the extreme or the negative.
I am going back some time now, but when the second series of Rab C was broadcast, it had subtitles. I know a lot of English people, and without malice, a lot of them think that they own Scotland, or that we are in some way akin to a colony
Muttley and Christian are spot on. We can’t assume anything and we can’t take our foot of the peddle.
“However, as Christian rightly says there is a danger of believing our own publicity.”
I think anyone who predicts the result with confidence either way at this stage is a complete idiot.
Wow, just read through it and had a quick glance through the comments. That article is the most spectacular display of arrogance I’ve seen from the Guardian in quite some time and that’s saying something.
Good to see you here again Ysabelle.
I’m in Australia, so North is pretty much everywhere from here. I have two younger Glaswegians on a working holiday living here at present (22 and 23 yr old). Both of them when they arrived last May had no idea about what was going on in Scotland. I showed them the McCrone report and pointed out the theft of 900 miles of Scottish water with all the oil within that boundary, I rhetorically asked why Labour was now in a campaign together with the Tories. Within a few days they were on the phone to their respective parents (both sets were labour voters). As a result there are now six more Yes votes that can be counted on.
When I investigated further as to the lack of knowledge of what was going on with the two lodgers – they simply said that there was no real banter between their age group over this issue. As they both ‘live’ on facebook I suggested they commented to their friends about what they had learned down here.
They did this and had no comments back from any of their friends in Scotland. They were not that bothered and said their peer group were just not interested in any of that ‘shit’. It seems they will talk all day about ‘fitba’ and celeb. gossip but are totally cold when it comes to anything political. Perhaps we need some celebs like Rod Stewart to wear a huge ‘Yes’ t-shirt at his next visit to Parkhead to get them to sit up and take notice. Or Biffy Clyro doing the same for a gig in Scotland.
I have managed to ‘turn’ my sister and her husband from ‘Labour died in the wool’ supporters (they live in Pollok and I threatened them with a ‘doin’ if they never) to now being strongly in the Yes camp by sending her constant links and e-mails and haranguing her on the phone.
Who knows how many these eight have changed or at least spoken to since they converted their way of thinking. I may live in Australia and not have the chance to vote – nonetheless I proudly wear my ‘Yes’ sticker on the car, I open my SNP brolly with a huge smile on the days it rains and spend much of my time pointing out the shortfalls of the anti-independence arguments whenever I can with folks back home. It seems the personal contact and the unveiling of the truth gets results. I expect there are many more worldwide who are busy in the same activities. These activities are hugely important to the Yes campaign as if each ex-pat manages to convince even one resident to change it has the double effect of also reducing the no vote at the same time.
So what is the point of this ramble you may ask?
Well it seems to me that the ‘anoraks’ amongst us are well and truly versed in repudiating the lies and smears of the anti-independence groups and might just think that information like the McCrone report is common knowledge and not worth repeating. I would like to suggest otherwise. It seems evident that there is still a huge number of Scots who are still oblivious to this and many other facts that would persuade them to think seriously about their future. So it may seem mundane and ‘old hat’ but please do not forget to repeat this information as often as possible – it does make a difference.
One last thought – all the negativity in the MSM is not reaching the demographic group that live on facebook. So all their lies are doing is demoralising their own followers, who are now all but completely disillusioned by the sheer insanity of what they are being asked to support and promote. Make no mistake the Yes vote has well and truly started from a base of truth and positive arguments and it is beginning to swell considerably.
As regulars on here will know, I have been accused of being a prophet of doom and gloom with regards to the ‘interest’ of loyalist groups in the referendum debate. In my defence, I think recent developments are proving that I had a point. However, I think a much more interesting viewpoint is the honesty of Christian Wright and mutley79. I think that both have introduced a degree of reality to this forum. At the moment we are losing the debate, we are failing to gather the momentum for a YES vote. Folk are cosy, folk are feart, better the devil you know and all that. Having said that, I am beginning to detect a slight change in opinion, I have spoken to a good number of Labourite unionist types, who are now actually asking themselves “Which way will I vote?”. An unthinkable question for them only a few years ago. I share the realism of Christian and mutley, we have many of our fellow Scots to convince, however I think that we might be a lot closer to a YES vote than we all think. Or is that just wishful thinking on my part?
@Keef – Keef come home. YOUR COUNTRY NEEDS YOU!
Re the current polls on voting intentions, I simply don’t believe them.
I find it hard to believe that a ‘yes’ vote is stuck in the 30% bracket. It doesn’t make sense!
I have canvassed extensively in the West Lothian area during the last three elections for Westminster and Holyrood. We asked four questions of those canvassed. The last question asked how they would vote if given the opportunity to vote in a referendum on independence. Most Labour voters indicated that they would vote ‘yes’.
Our polling results, once collected after the 2011 election, showed West Lothian, and Almond Valley (Livingston) in particular, in the upper 40% bracket for a ‘yes’ vote. with those against trailing in the low 30s. This is significant!
I think Scots want to be persuaded.
The other very important factor will be Labour for Independence. They will be a real thorn in the flesh of the Labour leadership!
The battle is there to be won!
And it is worth remembering that every Westminster election has the potential to be a vote to dissolve the Union, so if the referendum battle is lost, the independence fight will be far from over.
@Richard McHarg
“And it is worth remembering that every Westminster election has the potential to be a vote to dissolve the Union, so if the referendum battle is lost, the independence fight will be far from over. ”
Very true Richard, however, without being too optimistic, I have the feeling our nation is moving towards a YES vote.
@Bill C . Thanks for the sentiments Bill. Unfortunately that won’t be happening real soon. So I spend as much of my free time as possible in the quest of seeing that Yes vote pronounce that Scotland has at last woken up.
Scotland should be feart!
Feart of the backlash they will have to endure if there is a no vote.
I have made a commitment to myself to double my efforts in helping the Yes vote win in next year’s referendum.
That’s right – it’s about time we started acknowledging that it’s only next year and help concentrate the minds of the Yes campaign.
My campaign add would be – Archie Gemmill scoring against Holland. _A huge YES!!!
Andy Murray wining the US Slam- a Huge YES!!!
SNP’s 2011 result announced – a Huge YES!!!
Salmond announcing Uni. Fees will remain free – a student’s bar all shouting YES!!!
Facebook comment by 16 year old kid “how are you all voting in the referendum?” – a Flurry of Yes!!! posts.
The scientist as the breakthrough on dolly the sheep was made clenching a fist – YES!!!
Prescriptions still free – an OAP waving her handbag shouting YES!!!
Fairer welfare services to be implemented- a single parent with kid rejoicing shouting YES!!!
The announcement of the abolishment of a minimum wage and the setup of ‘living wage’ – Groups of families smiling shouting YES!!
Etc …etc..
Finally – Scotland votes to be a Nation again – YES!!!!!!
ONE Commentator said today “we are nearer to the next election ,than we are to the last”.Obviously all Westminster politicians will have an eye to the next election and their ‘legacy’ but who is kidding who ?
We pour scorn on ‘the Scottish media for their spin and bias but it is farcical if not dangerous that people in England,Wales and N Ireland by omission are not being given a heads up to what may or
may not happen,following our Referendum. Instead they appear to be being led down the old familiar road . Vote for party A or vote for party B – How very American ?
The sad thing is ,we have more ‘politics in/on the media now than ever before yet an awful lot of people are less informed and even less interested. “The public gets what the public wants”.
This is going to be a tough two years but I think Keef ,Margo and Blair Jenkins are so right,it is only by all of us here going out (LFI,Greens,NC etc included ) and speaking at ground level can we influence the outcome of Scotlands Referendum because without sounding like I’ve lost the plot I’m not even sure who pulls the UKs strings anymore.
I’ve always felt that the bulk of Scots are waiting to be sold on Independence. I’ve talked extensively to many people, mostly under the age of 40, and I can say that most are very quiet on the subject. I came to the conclusion that we won’t really see much poll differentiation until the last six months of campaigning. I feel this will pan out more like the Devolution campaign of 97. I could barely get anyone to admit what they were going to vote for at that time, and it wasn’t until a couple of weeks AFTER Devolution Day that people around me started to open up. Voting is a very private matter for a lot of people and they take their own time to decide where their vote is going to go. I am a bit heartened by the fact there is a large glut of population that hasn’t decided yet at this stage, because that means they’re waiting, waiting to be convinced either way.
That is where the YES Campaign has the edge. A campaign based on truths and vision. Lay out the facts and figures for an inclusive future for everybody, of social justice, protected services, investment, a written constitution on education, welfare, Rights and fundamental principles. The people will digest this and make their decision against the NO Campaign’s, fear, smear and vague mebbies from unpopular and discredited Unionist career politicians and their bag men. I trust the people to vote for something greater than they have now, but it will take time, and that time will be after the publishing of the White Paper later this year. It will have to be a document which needs to galvanise the people of Scotland and arm the YES Campaign with the convincing argument for an Independent Scotland, a different Scotland and one that is fit for the 21st Century and beyond for all of us.
The NO campaign are inherently fractured, the triumvirate of Unionist parties simply don’t like each other and will do little for each other. Thus their campaign will mostly be continuous scaremongering backed up by, mostly, too poor, too wee and too stupid arguments ad nauseum. They are incapable of providing a positive vision of a future for Scotland because what is coming from Wasteminster is another round of vicious Thatcherism. What public services are left in England will be fully privatised by 2017, and welfare will be reformed out of existence by 2020 and state/government pensions will go in the next decade. All this will be under the guise of ‘modernisation’ and will be agreed upon by all Unionist parties because that is what has been agreed between them to try and save the British State from economic collapse. The people of Scotland are watching and listening.
We feel the MSM is beyond us. But they have to report what is going on from Wasteminster and the effect that it has on the UK as a whole. The privatisation of public services will always be a bigger story than Johann Lamont trying to land a punch on Alex Salmond every Thursday, or Alistair Darling trying to tell us that the Beatles will be foreign music after 2014. There will be Scottish reactions to the bigger UK stories. One thing that is needed from us on social media is to support Labour for Independence and get them to reach as many of the electorate as possible, an alternative Labour which supports the traditional values of Scottish Labour, they may yet get an MSP or two to speak for them. This is an itch that Johann Lamont can’t scratch and could provide the YES campaign with a very important and convincing partner.
I am optimistic, but also realistic. I feel if the Scottish electorate are treated fairly and honestly and are presented with a just argument by the YES Campaign, where they will be offered something much greater than they have now by the White Paper and it’s vision for a future Scotland, then I feel the that Independence is secured.
Rabb, I read the Edinburgh Agreement in full and didn’t see anything. It’s also been reviewed by Aileen McHarg Professor of Public Law at the University of Strathclyde and I think she’d have spotted anything untoward:
http://www.scottishconstitutionalfutures.org/OpinionandAnalysis/ViewBlogPost/tabid/1767/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/468/Aileen-McHarg-The-Legal-Effects-of-the-Edinburgh-Agreement–Again.aspx
Derick, Simon Harries is from Wales, and sees the UK as his country, not England. So he sees Scotland as an integral part of the UK, not England.
Mmm, to get through to the youngsters, perhaps the slogan should be: “YUSS“.
I do see uncertainty and doubt amongst Indy supporters about winning, and maybe this isn’t surprising in some ways. We too are being bombarded with negatives from the NO campaign.
Well, look at it this way, perhaps the biggest foe of independence is apathy and ignorance, and the more the NO campaign – campaign – the more people think about the referendum itself and independence as a possibility.
It isn’t just the YES campaign campaigning for Independence, it’s the NO as well. Everything they do raises awareness and interest.
I live in Glasgow,its very hard trying to expain even the basics to the Disengaged.The people/friends im taking to,do not vote.Some have never voted,this is where i think we can gain the votes needed.The West Of Scotland is a minefield,one side says its a Catholic conspiricy the other a Protestant conspiricy.When i ask would you vote for UNITED IRELAND, all catholics say they would.The Protestants would lay thier life down for the Queen.This is a classic British tactic,Divide & Conquer.My way to counter this is to be Positive,explain if anyone has a Question that needs answered then ask me.If i do not know the answer,i will find out to the best of my ability.The most important thing is TRUST,do the people im speaking to trust me.The answer is always an emphatic YES,now i get calls about passports/driving licences etc.In 2014 when we Win,i will sit down knowing that my efforts will have been for the good of my Country and all her People.
O/T (slightly): Magaret Curran appeared on Radio Scotland this morning, with the intention of attacking the changes to child benefit announced this morning. However, she spent most of her time defending Joan Lamont’s attack on universal benefits. Hilarious.
Labour for Independence want to gauge the number of people who could assist them in leafleting in 2013. If you’re interested you can go over to their Facebook page below and vote in the relevant locale category.
https://www.facebook.com/labourforindependence?ref=stream
And they’ve linked to a Daily Telegraph article there which outlines the Tories lovely plans for the UK:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/9782816/Tory-manifesto-blueprint-lower-benefits-for-Northerners-and-longer-school-days.html
I see British unionist terrorists are apparently behind the increasing violence we are witnessing on the UK’s streets.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20929658
My impression is that the London media discussed Scottish independence seriously for a couple of weeks after it became clear the referendum would indeed take place.
They then took a show of hands amongst their friends in London and concluded there wasn’t any possibility that Scotland would ever vote Yes.
Because of this, they’re now never writing about the referendum in a serious manner.
I think it’ll take at least one opinion poll that shows the Yes side in the lead before the reassess their position.
I keep hearing this 30% ratio being banded about (the ‘Yes’ voters). I honestly believe that it sits much higher than that …much higher. I think we are looking it at around 42% to 45%. The media will NEVER admit to such a figure, and I think they would freak out if they did.
One thing is for sure, the Yes vote percentage has most certainly NOT gone down in the year of Britishness (2012), and I doubt that the ‘No’ percentage really rose in the same year.
As the turth emerges, and people like ourselves tell people to come to sites like this, I can only see the ‘Yes’ vote going up. It really is up to the ‘No’ camp to get their house in order, and tell us what teh benefits are to being in the Union. If Labour actually said Devo-Max was on the table, then it would be a shoo-in for them. Instead, they have taken this literally blind view, and absolute hatred of Nationalists to blunt their own ‘superior’ weaponry in this battle.
History may tell future Scots how Independence was won because of sheer blind ignorance and sheer spite by the ‘No’ camp.
scottish_skier says:
I see British unionist terrorists are apparently behind the increasing violence we are witnessing on the UK’s streets.
I just can’t see it happening on our streets, mate. I mean, if they started their nonsense here, I could honestly see Scotland going absolutely crazy – and I mean …full on red -rage Hornet’s Nest style – I do not see the normal people of Scotland living in fear all because of the actions of a small group of extreme Unionists taking matters into their own hands. The fury that would sound off from all over the land would probably give the extremists a helluva fright. The people of Scotland would demand that such a thing nipped in the bud straight away.
God help the Orange Order or the extreme Unionists if they really did stir the people of Scotland with the threat of violence. We, as a people, have never tolerated being dictated too, or put up with the fear of violence.
And because of that, I don’t see this happening here. I think even the most extreme Unionist persons know this fact also. Scotland is too small, too closely knitted, and the divisions that it would cause in actual families would be tragic. I have no doubt that anyone participating in extreme violence will be quickly arrested, named and shamed, and locked up indefinitely till their court case. Then it would be something like a 2 year sentence once they are judged. I think Kenny MacAskill and Co. will not allow something like this to build. They will hit such a movement hard and quick, and make those who do participate in it, really suffer.
My experience of living south of the border is that the moment many folks hear the word “Scotland” (or “Wales”, or “Norn Irn” for that matter) in any media context they instinctively file it under “regional programming/ local interest: not for me” and stop listening or change the channel. It doesn’t matter whether the item is genuinely only of local interest like the Scottish football manager’s job; an issue with consequences for the rest of the UK such as Scottish independence; or an item where the location is completely irrelevant such as a child abduction or road accident – the second they hear the magic words “in Scotland” the shutters drop and they don’t take in any more.
I’m sure it’s not intentional, they just react in the same way viewers of Border Television in say, Peebles, react when the Border News mentions what happened “in Penrith today…”
I think we would be silly to read much into the opinion polls, one way or the other, so far from the actual polling day. Polls taken days before a vote have turned out to be wildly wrong – remember Major’s astonishing victory. What is clear is that a lot of work remains to be done and it will be an uphill struggle against the might of the Unionist propaganda machine.
Like dcanmore I find that Scots are very quiet on the subject, and usually don’t want to discuss it. It seems too embarassing, like discussing their sex lives. It’s got to the point that I never raise the topic in conversation outside my family, only commenting if someone else starts the ball rolling. It may surprise you, but I am regarded by colleagues at work as a very quiet and calm person, and they always appear very shocked to discover that I fully intend to vote Yes in 2014. There’s a silence, followed by a giggle, then a pause, then a ‘Seriously?’. It’s as if I’d confessed to being an axe murderer. This, by the way, is in a rough old manufacturing company, not some Anglophone outpost in Edinburgh’s financial sector.
Yes, lots of work to do.
@JLT
Just can’t see it happening on our streets, mate
Oh yes, I agree. I was more playing with words with my post. The IRA were always referred to as ‘terrorists’ (and rightly so), yet not the UVF etc even though that’s what they are, i.e. paramilitary British terrorists. Those in NI who support the union and vote for parties which take the Conservative and Unionist party whip are called ‘loyalists’, not ‘unionists’ which is what they actually are. These same people are also ‘separatists’ as they wish a part of Ireland to be ‘separate’ from the rest of Ireland, but the British press never call them that. The riots in N. Ireland are British, yet they’re not called ‘British Riots’.
Yes, Britain has its separatist terrorists and its own version of the IRA, but they wave union jacks. They are also imperialistic, in contrast to the IRA.
Heard the news in the van as I headed back to my main site. David Cameron once more spouting about how Scotland must remain in the Union, because we are much stronger to together, and we help each other out in times of crisis.
In other words …they still have nothing to tell us. They still can’t give us one example as to what the REAL benefits are, to being in the Union.
A bit off topic but important nonetheless. A short time ago I received a glowing series of ‘must read’ items from the Herald on line editor. (presumably because I regularly comment).
At the end of the page was the following:
“If you’ve got any suggestions about what else we should add, email me at hs@heraldandtimes.co.uk.
And in the meantime, keep reading,”
Well I replied in no uncertain terms, and suggest you all do the same!
Quoting Rabb:
It seems that the rest of the UK is turning a blind eye to it as they are told it’s a foregone conclusion that we will stay put.
‘Of course this whole referendum idea is that dastardly fat Eck’s and his alone, anyone who wants Scottish independence is a racist, and why would those subsidy junkie deep fried mars bar jocks want to stop sucking on the teat of mother England anyway?’
To paraphrase the thought process of the average Guardian reader.