Just checking
So this sort of thing’s fine now, is it?
After all, there are plenty of well-documented links between the UK royal family and the Nazis. So presumably something as crass and offensive as the above image would be regarded as an acceptable illustration in a broadsheet Scottish newspaper, were it for some reason to be running a thinly-disguised smear against British nationalists.
We’re not going to dignify the article with which Scotland on Sunday has attempted to justify a despicable and transparent piece of grotesque mudslinging today with a link. We will, however, quote from the last paragraph to give you a flavour:
“Today, the ruling party of Scotland has nationalism as its creed and is suspiciously coy about its own history. Elsewhere in the nationalist family, the BNP, before it plunged into fratricidal warfare, trounced the Far Left in recent Scottish elections and, in 2010, received a respectable 1,000 votes in Alex Salmond’s stamping ground of Banff and Buchan.
To this should be added growing sympathy for the agenda of Ukip. The Scottish electorate now appears more receptive to radical nationalism than Mosley’s blackshirts could ever dream of.”
Much like the Radio Times’ recent traducing of the reputation of Dr Fiona Watson in order to sneakily label the SNP anti-English bigots by implication (more on that story to come, incidentally), there’s nothing in the words of the SoS article which actually directly accuses the Scottish independence movement of being xenophobic racists. Instead, they’re simply mentioned in the same sentences as the BNP and UKIP, Alex Salmond’s name dropped in carefully close proximity to that of Oswald Mosley as a fellow “radical nationalist”.
The SNP – both the party and individual figures – are mentioned by name repeatedly in the piece, but when it comes to the only British MP interned for fascist sympathies during the war, Captain Archibald Maule Ramsay, the author strangely omits to note his party loyalties. You’ll have to Google to find out that Ramsay was a Scottish Unionist, the forerunner of the Scottish Conservatives.
Today’s edition of SoS contains a whole raft of objectionable articles, but the “uncomfortable truths in Fascist Scotland” will distract attention from all of them. It is by itself the lowest, rankest depth plumbed by any Scottish newspaper this year, if not for several years.
There is legitimate scope for reporting and analysis of fascism in Scotland in the 1930s – it’s too easy to forget that before the horrors of the Nazi extermination camps, fascism was a widely-accepted alternative political ideology – but the nature of today’s piece and the image accompanying it (a Photoshopped version of one that’s been popular among Scottish nationalists for years) makes its agenda crystal-clear.
This site has repeatedly said that it doesn’t wish to see the death of Scottish newspapers, merely their improvement. Perhaps it’s time to reconsider that view.
this too
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=prince+harry+in+nazi+uniform&hl=en&rlz=1T4ASUM_enGB498GB498&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=_DRhUb61NcXT0QWfvYCwBg&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAQ&biw=1043&bih=464
I am all for freedom of speech but surely the SoS article has crossed the line?
I understand you are only making a very good point, Rev and that you would never advocate stooping to their level. However, please be careful the royal pic is not taken out of context and used against you. “Look what the nats are doing to our royal family!”.
I think this is the Scotsman stable morphing into the Mail (Scotland) market segement.
At least five outrages per day to keep up sales and feed the swivel eyed whatevers.
The Scotsman is going down and the water has just reached the boiler room.
Boom!
Goodbye
The reason for this type of ‘journalism’, is this sort of statesmanship by Salmond . .
link to tinyurl.com
Better Together and Westminster are simply terrified of this level of articulate and intellectual states
manship. They fear this man, and anything which they think may smear him and his party (and the broader Yes movement) is grist to their mill. Frankly, judging by this latest propaganda effort they are getting really desperate.
Odd formatting in previous message. Typing and pasting nti text field n iPad is invisible. Anyone else had this problem? It’s been fine before, andI’ve made no updates. Changes to WoS WordPress?
Please note that SoS have now replaced this disgraceful image with a photo of Sir Oswald Mosley (Getty photos) – but not before insulting hundreds of the Scots who’ve seen it. Does SoS have a death wish?
Socio-economically, New Labour are the closest mainstream UK party to the German National Socialists of the WWII era. This from the political compass:
link to politicalcompass.org
link to politicalcompass.org
Lie roughly half way between the BNP / Nazis and the Conservatives / UKIP. Recent moves to the ‘One Nation’ approach, including a stronger stance on immigration, should firm up this position. Will be interesting to see how 2015 manifesto places them anyway.
Many people will see (are seeing) The Scotsman for what it is. Unfortunately many still believe what they read. Fortunately there are so few readers of the Scotsman, it gets lesrelevant every week.
When I started my retail business 11 years ago, I dreamed of being able to afford adverts in The Scotsman. Now I can get a half page advert for £300 But even at that it isn’t worth it anymore. The freebie publications are more effective than The Scotman and that is down to quality of readership.
They have a massive focus on their website advertising. Given their recent fiddling of their google figures and downgrading on google, I wouldn’t touch it.
Re Colin Dunn
I find the way a text box works on an iPad varies and it seems to be to do with how strong your wifi or 3g signal is. Although I have noticed that the return button now jumps down 2 lines, this is new. Also my iPad is ‘rremebering’ (see) every typo I have ever made and not noticed. Surely an iPad issue though?
I’d imagine that if we all voted to stay in the Union then all of these ‘problems’ would disappear.
There would be no racial intolerance in our cities, jobs wouldn’t just be for ‘British workers’, and there wouldn’t be any nationalistic flag waving.
Vote NO for a racially harmonious future.
Adam Davidson,
Go to Settings/ General/ Reset
there you can reset the keyboard board dictionary.
I quite like how mine knows to capitalise Klingon.
No one seems to be mentioning that the flag most closely associated with fascism in Scotland and the UK is without a doubt the Union Flag. Think of any EDL, National Front rally in recent memory and what do they wave? What features prominently on the BNP logo?
@ Colin Dunn
Odd formatting in previous message. Typing and pasting nti text field n iPad is invisible. Anyone else had this problem? It’s been fine before, andI’ve made no updates. Changes to WoS WordPress?
Seems ok on mine
My God, three Swastikas! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
link to youtu.be
Tattie-boggle: Excellent point, edited in 😀
I’ve just read the paragraph you’ve quoted, Stu, and not the whole article. If the BNP were standing in Banff, they were presumably opposing the SNP candidate, Alec Salmond, as were UKIP if they were there too (though that’s not explicit in the paragraph). The logical conclusion I come to is that both the BNP and UKIP don’t like the SNP – is that because it is not fascist, xenophobic and repellant enough?
I don’t know who’s feeding the so called journalists who are prepared to trot out this stuff, but it’s on the same level as Cameron’s crass comments about North Korea threatening us, or Davidson claiming we’ll be losing every defence job in Scotland if we vote Yes. It’s not just inaccurate and untruthful, but it’s also inept and badly thought out because as more and more reasonable citizens become aware of how disdainfully their opinions are being manipulated they will react with justifiable disgust and anger.
It would be pleasing to imagine that the editors were prompted to change the picture accompanying this article out of some sense of professional pride. It would be better still if we might imagine they were moved to do so out of respect for their few remaining readers and that vastly larger part of the people of Scotland who shun such vile “journalism”. But the article itself remains. And it is every bit as offensive as the image that has now been removed in a pathetic and futile nod towards common decency.
I’ve never heard of this Gavin Bowd. I don’t know if he lays claim to any kind of academic authority or journalistic rigour. But I do know that he has forfeited any such claim with this article. This is neither historical account nor journalistic analysis. It is no more than crude political propaganda of the basest and most dishonest kind.
No honest person would seek to deny that there were people from Scotland who flirted with Facism. And even a few who took their involvement beyond mere flirtation. But neither would an honest person who is to any degree acquainted with Scotland’s politics in the 21st century seek to associate the modern Scottish National Party with the far-right nationalist movements of the last century. Nor would any informed commentator so much as mention the SNP and the BNP in the same breath, far less claim that they are part of some “nationalist family”.
In writing about and understanding history context is crucial. Among the most heinous offences against fundamental academic standards the writer of an alleged historical work can commit are the fallacy of judging the past by the social mores of the present, and failure to acknowledge the changes that are wrought by time. Others include departure from objective analysis aggravated by the intrusion of personal prejudice.
By his own testimony, Gavin Bowd stands convicted on all counts.
You would hope (with SoS- mm… no) that to give balance the author might have mentioned the number of Scots who fought (many died) on the Republican side during the Spanish Civil War before WW2.
Just noticed Tom Harris calling you names on Twitter and facebook 😀 He is a silly billy isn’t he.
Not so long ago, at the height of the stushie over Alasdair Gray`s “settler or colonist” comments, Kenny Farquharson , an individual with whom I’ve amicably engaged on various issues for many years, was on twitter trying vainly to defend the lead his paper had taken in what seemed like a determined attempt to blacken the name of an inspirational figure on the Yes side of the constitutional debate.
When it became clear that rational, impartial analysis was simply not on his agenda, I likened him to Dr. Goebbels. Not very pleasant, I agree, but his, and his paper`s propagandised character assassination of Alasdair Gray would, in my view, amply qualify such a comparison.
Now I’d have thought an editor of a “quality” newspaper would have been troubled to say the least that any reader could equate the paper’s output with the kind of deliberate misinformation associated with Herr Goebbels, but oddly, or perhaps predictably, Mr. Farquharson didn`t object at all to the propaganda analogy, but he did consider the Nazi reference so despicable that he blocked me. It’s a funny old thing, irony.
@Colin Dunn
No, the WordPress text box on Wings and the iPad hate each other. Try correcting text and you can see some bloody strange things happening
Sir Oswald Ernald Mosley, 6th Baronet (16 November 1896 – 3 December 1980) was an English politician, known principally as the founder of the British Union of Fascists. He was a Member of Parliament for Harrow from 1918 to 1924, for Smethwick from 1926 to 1931 and Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster in the Labour Government of 1929–1931, a position he resigned due to his disagreement with the Labour Government’s unemployment policies. He then formed the New Party which merged with the British Union of Fascists (which included the Blackshirts) in 1932. Although relatively well funded, Mosley often overemphasized intellectual fine points that appealed to few voters, opposed free trade and associated closely with Nazi Germany.
And from the SOS editorial today ……..
Migration Nation
Scotland has always prided itself on being a welcoming destination for immigrants and, as our report on page six details today, that continues to be the case. The racial tensions that have in the past plagued other parts of the UK have largely been avoided north of the Border due to a tolerant acceptance that immigrant workers play their part in boosting the economy.
link to guardian.co.uk
It doesn’t explain the Northbritonman and SOS death wish, though.
link to libdemvoice.org
Since today is Holocaust Remembrance Day, the timing of this SoS article is most unfortunate.
@PeterABell
Gavin P Dowd is a senior lecturer in French at St Andrews University and I reckon former head of their debating society.
Came across this link for a paper he delivered on this subject ….rather more clear in its objectives
Fortify the Cheviots; The Nazis and The Nats
link to risweb.st-andrews.ac.uk
Gavin P Dowd is also noted for not being the author of this article.
“Gavin P Dowd is also noted for not being the author of this article.”
An understandable confusion, as the byline on the SoS piece is “Gavin Dowd”, NOT Gavin Bowd.
It’s Scotsman/SoS. We can’t be certain of anything.
I note that in the image from the paper. above, their is an image of a Mercedes Benz, linking to a feature article. I do wonder if Mercedes Benz would feel comfortable having their images on the same page or even in the same newspaper as the Nazi imagery, created by Scotsman publications.
Mixing my Dowds with my Bowds, scrub debating society reference, rest accurate!
If anyone can bear to go to the SoS Facebook page, there is an ever-lengthening comment thread of protest about this article/image, and many declarations from readers vowing never to buy the paper again. Whoever made this editorial decision must surely now be sorely regretting it.
Albalha
The link doesn’t really lead anywhere but you can see where the joker is coming from 🙂
Paper given to Fighting for Britain? conference, University of Edinburgh
The deputy editor of SoS is quite relaxed – publicly so – about equating the views of contemporary SNP politicians with 1930s fascism
link to twitter.com
Well worth Rev Campbell Googling the activities of Vitol Plc a sanctions busting tax avoiding company whose CEO donated £500,000 to the Bitter Together and is also a major donor to David Cameron and the Tories in London.
Ian Taylor was born, educated and lives in England and doesn’t have a vote in the referendum.
@PeterABell
Yes corrected Bowd/Dowd higher up, apart from the debating society link, he is as described.
@revstu
I was compelled to buy the paper. In the hard copy it is bylined Gavin Bowd, and in the article he uses the first person, para5, when talking about writing the book.
The paper he deliverd last year was at Edinburgh University, here the entry from the conference programme.
Perspectives from Scotland – Chair: Ewen Cameron
Gavin Bowd, ‘Fortify the Cheviots!’: the Nazis and the Nats
Trevor Griffiths, Scottish Cinema-goers at War: The Popular Reception of British and Scottish Films during the Second World War
The nazis learned a lot from the British …
link to en.wikipedia.org
British concentration camps in South Africa.
Petition launched at…
http://destiny.yes2014.net/scotsman-petition/
I’m going on now I know, stuck in bed with lurgy, anyway the reason I had him down as a St Andrews former debating president is there was, according to wikipedia, a Gavin P Dowd in the 80’s. Now on his St Andrews page under French his e mail starts gpb ….maybe a coincidence or wikipedia like the SOS are confused.
He does seems rather fascinted by the debating society and its links to 1930’s Germany.
“Fortify the Cheviots!” can be read in full here:
link to media.wix.com
The by-line on the online article has now been changed to Bowd, so I assume that it is written by the book’s author himself, thus providing SoS/JP with their get-out – namely that it is in fact an advert rather than a book review and that the views expressed are not reflective of those of the management but do represent their commitment to freedom of speech.
If they do go down that line, it will be weasel words that will fool nobody.
The SoS story is as relevant as saying Oswald Mosley was a member of the Labour Party which is now moving right towards a Uber Alles one nation state to attract BNP and Ukip supporters.
Imagine the outrage if that link was postulated in the National press.
Rev, I tend to agree with just about everything you and others have said on the site, but I really think the Swastika-Union Flag is a terrible way to illustrate your point: you have to know that this is going to be taken out of context, and engaging in exactly the sort of flag desecration you’re criticising here was unnecessary. The superimposition of the swastika onto the saltire is so inherently offensive to many that it didn’t need a Union counterpart.
I don’t have any personal opinion or stake on flag desecration, or any similar sort of iconoclasm, but it’s clear that many others do, and the intentions of the Scotsman to wilfully undermine and attack the independence movement with such a graphic was sure to offend. By the same rule, I don’t care what you do with the Union flag, but this sort of graphic doesn’t just hurt bigots and xenophobes, but well-meaning people with no such inclinations.
I guess what I’m trying to say is you didn’t need to provide a defiled Union flag to show how unacceptable it is to do the same to the saltire, because it’s implicit by its very existence, and stooping to the Scotsmans’ level even for the purposes of illustration is still giving them too much dignity. This is one of my favourite political sites, and I don’t want it to be tarred by association because certain parties would undoubtedly use this image out of context.
“Rev, I tend to agree with just about everything you and others have said on the site, but I really think the Swastika-Union Flag is a terrible way to illustrate your point: you have to know that this is going to be taken out of context, and engaging in exactly the sort of flag desecration you’re criticising here was unnecessary. The superimposition of the swastika onto the saltire is so inherently offensive to many that it didn’t need a Union counterpart.”
Um, I haven’t done anything to a Union Jack.
Just astonished. Really thought last night this was a very poor taste smear from someone pro-yes being a total dick. To find out it isn’t is… I don’t even have appropriate words.
One grandfather drove ambulances, another manned artillery against the Nazis. I can’t say either were of an independence persuasion but it just sickens me their effort and sacrifice is trivialised like this. They would be aghast.
I wonder if the rest of the MSM will have a go at the SOS, the same way they chewed up prince harry , sigh I wait with bated breath !
Paul Martin
That’s really quite a despicable Twitter and well below what I would normally expect from Mr Farquharson.
I doubt that he will apologise though.
Hmm.. the only surprising thing about this article is its timing. I expected the Nazi smears to come much, much nearer the referendum.
Is the Unionists private polling indicating the fragility of the No vote? If so we may well move to the terrorist smears and – what will be the last resort of the MSM – the vile smears of prominent individual nationalists – much more quickly than anticipated.
Until two weeks ago I was unaware that the largest branch of the British Union of Fascists in 1934 was the Galloway constituency branch based at 40 High Street Dalbeattie. There were only 1000 BUF member sin Scotland, but the Galloway branch had 400. (The Dumfries branch had 120). The local BUF leader was James McLaurin Little 1901-1967 who was Dalbeattie town clerk. At the same time the Unionist MP for Galloway was John Mackie. Mackie was a member of Archibald Ramsay’s Right Club and was in favour of appeasing Hitler. Mackie was MP 1931-1958. Chair of the Galloway Unionist party was the 12th earl of Galloway- who was also a member of Ramsay’s Right Club.
I am still researching the subject, but the background to this regional flirtation with fascism was not support for Scottish nationalism, but the region’s strong Unionist culture and British Empire loyalism. The SNP have never won an election in Dumfriesshire and only twice in Galloway (Oct 1974 and 1997).If Bowd’s theory of a connection between fascism and Scottish nationalism was correct, then Dumfries and Galloway would be an SNP heartland -which is not. Rather it is home to Scotland’s last Conservative and Unionist MP.
Give the ‘author’ a chance to comment further. The Scotsman newspapers have a bit of a track record in distorting what people actually said in order to attack Scottish nationalism.
Linda,
I saw this on NNS:
link to frack-off.org.uk
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again.
If you want this sort of stuff to stop then STOP buying the Scotsman newspaper.
That paper simply HAS to go down the tube if we are to start any reasonable sort of debate on independence.
And when we’ve got rid of THAT rag then we’re turning our sights on the Herald.
All you employees at those newspapers take note, you had better start looking for other jobs. You have been warned time after time.
And if you are lucky enough to get work stacking shelves in your local supermarket always remember this, you will have nobody to blame but yourselves because you aided and abetted in that whole disgusting charade that you laughingly called journalism.
@TrainingDay
Re timing it’s Birlinn that have put the book out now, fair enough SOS chose to review but they’re not responsible for the timing, second book Birlinn have published recently on the subject, WOS did article on how the last one was covered. Nazis always a good subject for coverage and presumably sales it seems.
http://wingsoverscotland.com/whats-all-this-we-paleface/
I though the roundels fitted the drapes quite nicely. Almost as if they were made that way. 🙂
It really is the end for Johnston Press. And the heir apparent; press tycoon Sir Ray Tindle , who’s already got a raft of titles in England, looks even less likely to change things, so bye, bye Scotsman. By all reports he seems a kamikazi business entrepreneur with his other ventures bleeding him dry. Still I suppose the ‘Sir’ title’s worth it all!
“Um, I haven’t done anything to a Union Jack.”
… No, you haven’t. Great. My first comment and I make a complete idiot of myself. I’m now going to find a nice little hole to crawl into. First, though, let me try again:
“I really think the juxtaposition of the swastika to the royal family is a terrible way to illustrate your point… I guess what I’m trying to say is you didn’t need to provide an image of the royal family bearing the swastika to show how unacceptable it is to defile the saltire”
I guess my mental equation of the royal family to the union flag caused an override in my brain. Dammit.
@Linda’s Back
Also worth noting the dirty money behind Vitol, Ian Taylors company: Grand larceny and Serbian warlords: link to frack-off.org.uk
tempted to turn the ‘Scot Nats are anti-English’ on it’s head – perhaps ‘Brits are anti-Scottish’!
Off topic, and perhaps petty, but is anyone else irritated by the Herald’s almost daily use of the photograph of a small Saltire on a small flagpole with a larger Union flag above and beyond it, being the illustration of choice for much of Magnus Gardham’s output?
Not so much subliminal as in yer face…
I do think gratuitous usage of the swastika, in a Nazi connotation, is a little tastes shall we say. I am talking about the SoS’s smear and fear, not the Rev’s graphic. The Rev, has employed the same technique as the SoS, to highlight a cynical and distasteful act. The SoS manipulated the image to commit a cynical and distasteful act. Anyone spot the subtle difference? This view would appear to be supported by body of the article.
Sorry RT Cox, but International Holocaust Remembrance Day is on 27 January. However, I think we should all do our best to remember the Nazi horror, for more than one day in the year. Perhaps the SoS could publish a full page apology to all remaining survivors of the Holocaust and their families, not just those supporting the Yes campaign.
@ Taranaich
You should have seen what happened after my first post. At least I think it was my first. Anyway, welcome and keep voicing your opinion.
No, I agree, CameronB: I just think it’s unnecessary to highlight such a cynical and distasteful act, because it’s so blatantly obvious as a cynical and distasteful act that it doesn’t need an illustration to show it. I’m not accusing Rev of actively engaging in the same sort of mud-slinging the Scotsman is going for, just that the image itself could so easily be misconstrued when taken out of context of the article.
I chose this point to speak on the site because I’m acutely aware that things are going to get very ugly over the next year, and I foresee a lot of horrible things being said and done: I guess that makes me more anxious about the referendum. If they’re already equating Independence with fascism at this point, how much worse will it get?
When I looked at the SoS’s Facebook site 15 minutes ago, there were almost 500 comments, all complaining in the strongest terms. And now the article and thread have just now been removed altogether from the page!
Guess what day it is at sunset?
link to en.wikipedia.org
It is a tricky one Taranaich. Perhaps alternative media needs to employ a bit more shock though, in order to highlight the lack of balance in the MSM, in a way that the Yes campaign won’t or can’t?
I see the MSM are back to the old smears about the Scottish “Nazi” Party. The fact that many nationalists from Scotland gave honourable service to the British state in both World Wars, and indeed after that, has not prevented the UK establishment, through their MSM puppets, from propagating these disgraceful smears again. What can be said about this? The obvious answer is that there is no positive case for the Union, and that they have now reached the sewer of political black arts. These are not people who are confident of their case, this is obnoxious stuff. Training Day is correct, expect the terrorist smears to follow from the British state, pedalled by their cringing pet journalists.
The Scotsman is clearly seeing sales nosedive further and faster, now that they are classeed as a regional paper.
They must be receiving more unsold copies bundled up and being returned from newsagents as well.
Oh well – clearly not producing journalism in the manner that Scots wish to buy.
With reference to the image used by SoS – An outline of the symbols history is available here:
link to en.wikipedia.org
@ Malcom
Please don’t get me wrong Malcom, but I think there were more non-Jews murdered during the Holocaust, than Jews. I do get your point though. The reason I make this point, is that if the Holocaust is remembered as a crime against the Jews, it is only to easy for some to write it off as having no relevance to them. Not that I am suggesting that you are claiming the Jews were the Nazis’ only victims.
And let us not forget that it was the British who invented concentration camps in South Africa during the Boor wars where thousands of people died.
link to whale.to
would it be possible to send the offending photograph, the Scottish flag one, to any German company who advertises in any of the Johnston press publications
The SoS would be prosecuted if they published the image in Germany. The Germans, naturally, don’t like to be reminded of their mistakes.
Terrible Scotland on Sunday headline. It seems long ago now the days with SoS was a lively organ to keep the Scottish debate going. Their days are surely numbered. And when Mercedes find out about the juxtaposition you can be sure they will note be very pleased.
It is Holocaust memorial day but in Israel.
That all said I think bringing in the royal family in this photoshopping however ironic gives others the stick to beat the argument.
For a less sensationalist account of the period please read The Fasces and the Saltire: The Failure of the British Union of Fascists in Scotland, 1932 -1940 by Stephen Culllen published in the Scottish Historical Review 2008.
It is online here
link to scribd.com
Another more reasoned and reasonable analysis – Blackshirts in Red Scotland: an analysis of fascism and its opponents in inter-war Scotland http://bit.ly/10KahgY
@AlistairLivingston
That looks interesting though can’t get the details other than via facebook, and I don’t do that. If you have a handy other link that’d be great, no worries if not.
Taranaich is correct; one doesn’t counter an offensive image by posting another. There’s no need because the offensiveness has already been published.
The best course of action is to denounce this disgraceful editorial & avoid if at all possible buying or reading on line the Scotsman.
The Scotsman & SOS are not newspapers written by critical journalists. They are comics written by immature, blinkered bigots & deserve to be liquidated.
That they continue to be published is actually your own fault.
So stop reading now!
BBC’s Glen Campbell did not get the No he was hoping for.
link to bbc.co.uk
Plenty of saltires in the New York crowd.
@CameronB
Was more highlighting the egregious timing of the publication.
@ Malcolm
That was the point I took from your post, and apparently missed with regard to RT Cox. Apologies RT. I just thought I should add my 2p worth.
@Alistair Livingstone
There has been a bit of interest in this period thanks to Solway Craft and miniature’s war game setting “A Very British Civil War”, whicposts forward that Edward 8th didn’t abdicate, the Gov’t resigned and the country split, a cross between the English Civil War/Bishop’s Warband the Spansh Civil War.
If you google the title of the project, it may lead you to more information about the period, the factual as well as the fictional
Taranaich is correct; one doesn’t counter an offensive image by posting another
One does if the publisher of the first image does not recognise its offensiveness. Producing an analogous image which may offend that publisher helps them to recognise the offensiveness of their image. Or they simply deny the analogy and just get outraged by your picture. I’m guessing the latter option will be most popular with Unionists.
@Marcia
Kevin McKidd – what a guy!
@CameronB
The reason I make this point, is that if the Holocaust is remembered as a crime against the Jews, it is only to easy for some to write it off as having no relevance to them.
Even if it were only a crime against Jews, it would still be of relevance to everyone. Any group could have been Hitler’s scapegoat. Any one of us could have been in his hate group, just as any one of us could be on some future despot’s shit list. Pastor Niemöller had it right.
@ Jiggsbro
“Any group could have been Hitler’s scapegoat.”
That was the point I was trying to make. I think we need to make a conscious effort to remember the Holocaust correctly, as there are some below a certain age who are completely unaware of it ever happening.
Remember that the Unionists in Perthshire deselected their sitting MP, the Duchess of Atholl, in 1938 for the temerity of translating fully Mein Kampf and warning about the true intentions of the Nazis – they thought she was obsessing over foreign affairs, Spanish Civil War refugees etc. She had public letters of condemnation signed by about 50/60 Tory no-marks, and one letter of support from one person – Winston Churchill. Within nine months, World War Two began. The unionists have a long history of inaction against fascism – they wouldn’t know a true fascist if one sat on their knee and tickled their chin.
I just tweeted that I served in HM forces and now being tagged as a nazi because I support independence.
I actually feel quite violated by SoS and Better Together’s Blair McDougall who failed to denounce it last night when I gave him the chance to on Twitter.
Stu,
As others have stated above, I feel that the Royal Family image is only lowering us to their disgusting level. I would asppreciate it being removed. It will only be cast up at a later stage.
Personaly I have gone from a no last year to a Yes (only if we retained monarchy) to a full blown republican now. I do know a lot of people who are royalist yes voters who will find this extremely insulting.
Jiggsbro says:
7 April, 2013 at 3:43 pm
@CameronB
The true numbers of human being killed by Hitler is still not known but a quick research give me a starting point
Jews
Slavs
Poles
Soviet Slavs and POWS
Romany (Gypsies)
Handicapped (not perfect human examples)
Non Europeans (Chinese, Indians and those of mixed race)
Homosexuals
Polititical Prisoners
Leftists
Freemasons
Esperantists (those who spoke Esperanto)
Enemy nationals, including Italians after the fall of Italy
I have counted up to about 15 millions before giving up but, this also includes Soviet citizens whom Stalin had allowed allowed to die.
Any group which was out of his favour was a target.
No surprise to see it’s Birlinn behind the Bowd book. Hugh Andrew, the main man there, is a staunch NO man – expect to see more books like this and hear more from him in the coming months.
“I chose this point to speak on the site because I’m acutely aware that things are going to get very ugly over the next year, and I foresee a lot of horrible things being said and done: I guess that makes me more anxious about the referendum. If they’re already equating Independence with fascism at this point, how much worse will it get?”
I agree totally with Taranaich on that. One consistent and constant tactic from the British nationalists, and the unionist media seems to have been to try and provoke people in Scotland into a response. They are becoming ever more insulting and abusive with, for example things like the Steve Bell cartoon, anti-English accusations, the tweets from people like Foulkes.
To the credit of people in Scotland, and those on the Yes side, we have – in the main – not been rising to it. And that must infuriate them. So we now have the spectacle of Lord Foulkes becoming an ever more deranged troll, and this kind of thing from the SOS.
I don’t find the image on this page particularly offensive – though some might. And I think it works well to highlight the SOS offense. But I also think we need to be very mindful that these are as much (possibly more) attempts to provoke reaction than anything else. And any such reaction will be used against us, either now or later on in the campaign.
It feels stupidly unfair that they get away with any level of abuse, antagonism, trolling and mindless stupidity while we have to sit on our hands and bite our tongues and try not to rise to the bait. But we probably do have to. With the entire media as it is, any ammo can be used effectively against us. Meanwhile, if we refuse to rise to it and take the high ground, all they can do is become ever more deranged and keep shooting themselves repeatedly in both feet. As they have with this.
“This site has repeatedly said that it doesn’t wish to see the death of Scottish newspapers, merely their improvement. Perhaps it’s time to reconsider that view.”
That’s creepy Rev, I’ve just posted something very similar over on NNS on this self same story. I’m done trying to defend even press and production staff.
No surprise to see it’s Birlinn behind the Bowd book. Hugh Andrew, the main man there, is a staunch NO man – expect to see more books like this and hear more from him in the coming months.
Thank you for that, Jamie.
Over the Easter weekend I started to write the book about Lockerbie that’s been gestating for a couple of years. I’m already up to nearly 10,000 words and it’s coming along fast. December this year is the 25th anniversary of the disaster, and I hope to get it out somehow in time to capitalise on the interest that will generate.
I’m not out for money; the previous books I’ve written have generated enough for a nice holiday, that’s all. I want the material out there as part of the case for an independent inquiry into the biggest police foul-up of the second millennium. However, I think having an actual publisher, if possible, is preferable to self-publishing, because an editor nearly always improves a text and publishers do publicity.
Purely on the basis of Birlinn having brought out a seminal book on the subject just over a year ago, I had been intending to approach them. Having seen this lot today, not a chance. If the alternative is self-publishing, that’s what I’ll do.
Birlinn publish Aonghas MacNeacaill’s books, and he is very much not a unionist, so I’d not be too aggressive to them.
@Malcolm
No worries, I’m not advocating anything of the sort. They are a good publisher – one of the few we have – and a good supporter of our culture. I’m just indicating the political leaning of their MD.
The picture is is there to grab interest by being controversial – a bit too much so.
The article itself is unobjectionable, and well-researched. It shows that Arthur Donaldson’s unpleasant wartime leafleting activities were not isolated.
@Cath
Agree with what you have said. I think we should try and be positive in the face of provocation. National Collective are trying to raise funds, as are Yes Scotand etc. We are better getting behind those efforts, and going to the anti-Trident rally next week in Glasgow, (as well as the Indy rally in September) than getting too angry over the MSM and the No campaign’s smears.
@Hermione
The article itself is unobjectionable, and well-researched. It shows that Arthur Donaldson’s unpleasant wartime leafleting activities were not isolated.
Care to elaborate?
Birlinn publish Aonghas MacNeacaill’s books, and he is very much not a unionist, so I’d not be too aggressive to them.
Ah, Malcolm, damn. Just when I thought my way was clear.
Aonghas MacNeacail, besides being a neighbour and acquaintance of mine, is a signatory member of Justice for Megrahi.
And as you say, very much not a unionist.
I don’t see the article in question linked to on Better Together.
I assume they didn’t think it would be helpful.
This is simply desperate spiteful stuff from SOS, ( and the group ) a thoughtless kick back against a widely held assumption that being anti SNP has lead to a dramatic additional negative to their sales.
It is a paper in it’s death throws, a rat will bite if cornered, just before it is stomped on.
I’ve been trying unsuccessfully for most of the day to sign the online petition protesting to against the disgraceful image on Scotland on Sunday but to no avail!!
Apparently ” The servers are getting absolutely hammered – for every 1 person that signs – 30 are viewing the site to see what is going on – twitter is going absolutely insane about the site” was the reply I got on Facebook from Scotland’s Date with Destiny!
It would seem that people all over Scotland are incensed and are indicating their displeasure in no uncertain terms!!
What the MSM are doing though are creating a bitterness that was not really there, they are making a hardening of bad attitudes, something that I do not think was really an issue before.
What they are doing is shoving Scotland’s peoples to have little option but to vote yes. There is the old saying ” badness begats badness”, they can hardly squeal when they get some back.
Here is a different link to Stephen Cullen’s paper in the Scottish Historical Review on the failure of fascism in Scotland 1932 -40.
link to wrap.warwick.ac.uk
What I find particularly hilarious is that the NO campaign go round handing out Union Jacks – they’ve done that a few times in Glasgow, including last week when the Royal couple visited – then brag about it and show photos on their site. They plaster their pages and campaign with Union Jacks. They deface the Saltire in this kind of way, and seem keen it’s not displayed or flown.
Then every so often some of them pop up to shriek and wail that “the nationalists seem to think they own the saltire!”
Erm, no. The saltire has never been particularly connected with independence, and no one has claimed “ownership”. For many of us the debate has very little to do with flags, or indeed Braveheart or “nationalism” or emotion. It’s about where power lies, and Holyrood being able to take decisions on things that affect us day-to-day, rather than such decisions being left with Westminster, especially with Westminster becoming ever more removed from our own values and aspirations.
The No campaign, however, are making a very good job of ensuring everyone knows they don’t want to be in any way associated with the Saltire, or to any positivity about Scotland at all. And make it very clear they prefer the UJ (they have truly hijacked that).
BBCScotlandshires take on it :
link to bbc.scotlandshire.co.uk
The only way to hit back at this hateful propaganda is for ALL of a progressive and nationalist outlook to decide collectively in a sustained and organised way NEVER to touch or smell far less buy the Scotsman or Scotland on Sunday EVER AGAIN.
These Johnston Press organs must already be a pariah news outlet among many Scots disgusted at their warped Unionism. As many others have already noted their ciculation is collapsing and both face extinction soon.
Crazy really that in an environment where print media is failing across the board, Johnston Press are lemming like rushing for the cliff edge and oblivion by actively antagonising what must be a majority of Scottish opinion. An epic act of commercial self harm. Each edition almost seems part of the longest suicide note in history.
However I do still think that Johnston Press must be until its death identified clearly as as a toxic NO GO AREA – warn your friends DO NOT BUY
Just stop buying it and stop giving them the oxygen of publicity.
After being at friends for a meal last night, have been spending today taking in these articles re SOS disgracefully disfiguring of the saltire with the author’s warped bile laden writings on Scotland plus all the comments here and in all honesty i feel i have been struggling to put into words how i feel. I truly feel sick to my stomach at the whole Scotsman/SOS stable aka Johnston Press. I can only suggest to leave them crawling in the gutter where they belong. Lets keep the moral high ground and not sully our name like they have theirs. Lets help finish them off and dont buy their garbage. They are now making massive mistakes. it would seem they themselves believe they are beaten. It sure looks like it.
Rev, do you not think there’s a bit of the ‘putting out the fire with gasoline’ in adding the swastika’s to the balcony image?
Perhaps better to list and then call for a boycott of the SoS advertisers! This weeks advertisers will no doubt be felling a bit pissed!!
Then there is always the law! There must be an angle of complaint/ redress in there somewhere? These guys are not smart they are knuckle dragging blunt – but not smart! So lets think smart what’s the legal route to humiliate them? Think Rosa Parks, all she did was refused to obey a bus driver – and look what happened next! There’s plenty Unionist lies and provocation coming so – how do we galvanise the next provocation and turn it into a citizens campaign with a legal basis for change! Crowd Fund the Legals – and we go after JP/ SoS – whoever and get even!
Rev, do you not think there’s a bit of the ‘putting out the fire with gasoline’ in adding the swastika’s to the balcony image?
Perhaps better to list and then call for a boycott of the SoS advertisers! This weeks advertisers will no doubt be felling a bit pissed!!
Then there is always the law! There must be an angle of complaint/ redress in there somewhere? These guys are not smart they are knuckle dragging blunt – but not smart! So lets think smart. What’s the legal route to humiliate them? Think Rosa Parks, all she did was refused to obey a bus driver – and look what happened next! There’s plenty Unionist lies and provocation coming so – how do we galvanise the next provocation and turn it into a citizens campaign with a simple legal basis for change! Crowd Fund the Legals – and we go after JP/ SoS – whoever and get even!
Klan Alba – very clever, not only an implied KKK smear but, closer to home, Clann Albann (C.M. Grieve/MacDiarmid’s militaristic / fascistic creation of 1930)…
@Albalha couldn’t stomach buying it – just nipped round to my local Scotmid to read it though and was pleased to see a large pile of SoSs unsold…
Hermione – you do know there was a British brigade in the Nazi army don’t you? You do know Edward POW and many others in the London elite admired the Nazis? Or are these truths warped unionism would rather forget. Grow up or go away!
I haven’t bought a Scotsman newspaper for years; it stinks.
Ian Taylor can’t vote in the referendum but as CEO of Vitol plc has been involved in some very shady dealings. Just google Vitol plc. or go to
link to nationalcollective.com
Also the second largest donor to Bitter together some author called CJ Sansom also lives in England so it seems that two thirds of their funding so far has come from those outside Scotland trying to influence voters in this country.
Did they not listen to David Cameron’s excuse for not debating with Alex Salmond …. it should be up to the people IN Scotland to influence the debate.
If you’ve eight quid spare you could let this guy know, in person, how you feel about his screed:
link to list.co.uk
xposted to Cheviot post – sorry if you’ve seen already
Bill McLean says:
7 April, 2013 at 8:50 pm
Hermione – you do know there was a British brigade in the Nazi army don’t you?
A “brigade”?
A “BRIGADE”???
You do know that a “brigade” is a unit with a strength of 3-5,000.
The British “Free Corps” of Nazi sympathisers appears to have had a peak strength of, er, less than 30.
How many of those were Scots?
Just finished watching Foyle’s War and getting mad all over again – signed the petition earlier.
@Bill McLean
If you are talking about “The Legion of St George”, the attempt to have a SS unit composed of British troops, it was a failure and a joke.
It had about 32 members, the most senior of whom was a fantasist from Ireland. It never saw action and, so committed were the deserters and jailbirds who made up “The Legion” put on their British uniforms and get back to the Allied lines when the writing was on the wall
Hermione, don’t be too hard on Bill. I’ve seen articles placed in respectable periodicals that give a misleading image of the “Legion” as if it was a crack unit. Perhaps Bill had read one of those
warn your friends DO NOT BUY
I discovered on Thursday that an SNP member who lives in the next street to me still buys it. I came on real strong to his wife about the evils of “Salmond accused” and “If you vote Yes it’ll be the plagues of Egypt the very next day”. Then this afternoon she said she’d passed on the message, and he’d bought the Sun instead. She was again horrified for different reasons, and chucked it on the fire.
But she had heard about the Saltire defacement, and the couple have decided that’s it at least until after independence.
I don’t think we should be freaking out about the actions of a handful of Scots who shared extreme political views, over half a century ago. Least of all the unionists, as at least one of these individuals appear to have been a prominent Tory. What I think we should be asking though, is who was backing them financially and are they still in business?
I’d would quite like to know if I a am helping to support them, in turn.
Scotland’s position in the Union was always a bit of a fudge and it retained a certain amount of separate identity. The reason why these historical anomalies still exist is due to the lack of any democratic or political clarification in the last 300 years. This will also change on 18/09/14. Should a No vote be returned, this will give the tories a mandate to integrate Scotland completely
The people of Scotland will no longer be sovereign citizens. They will become subjects along with the rest of Britain. Westminster will rule and the option of being Scottish and British will disappear. Only Britain will remain and British will be the nationality and the name of the country going forward, the notion that Britain is only union will disappear
Westminster will have the mandate, from the Scottish people, to abolish all Scottish institutions, Scottish law, Scottish education and indeed any institution in Scotland which exists as a separate institution from the rest of Britain, eg the SSPCA,
Holyrood was a Westminster creation, designed to ensure that no party could gain a majority. This flaw will be rectified immediately. The opportunity to reverse the divisive policies in Scotland wrt the rest of Britain will be reviewed. Devolution will be rolled back. Tuition fees will be introduced by Christmas 2014. Free prescriptions, health care for the elderly and bus passes will be revoked. A no vote is a vote in favour of Westminster policy over Holyrood policy, which has proven(proved) devisive. Westminster will have a democratic mandate to close down Holyrood, given to them by the people of Scotland
It is not just the future of Britain which is up for review in 2014. The very existence of Scotland as an entity will also be tested. A no vote will be a very clear expression by the people of Scotland for a preference for Britain rather than Scotland. The differences between Scotland and the rest of Britain will be deemed to have no democratic mandate.
It is not just the future of Britain at stake. The very existence of Scotland will be in the hands of the tory’s. Scaremongering? Moi?. Be afraid, be very afraid. The stakes are very high for everyone.
Very good Hermione and Erchie – there were 59 members of the British Free Corps. My mistake a corps (bigger than a brigade technically – of course I did not suggest they were of brigade or even Corps size!) Diversion will not work Hermione – your game is and has been up for some time! So they were a joke Erchie and were the royals who sympathized with the Nazis and the toffs who also sympathized also a joke. You should read a bit about Edward before you attack my point of view. Anyway in the end you both admitted that there were Britons who supported the Nazis – tough!
Serious question. Is what Scotland on Sunday did serious enough to merit police action? I mean, if any individual tried to smear another individual by suggesting they are a fascist or have nazi sympathies then I could see, in today’s climate, that person being arrested at least and potentially prosecuted for grossly offensive communications (SoS did post this on Facebook after all). People have been prosecuted for a lot less recently.
At the very least it would seem that there are civil legal remedies that could be pursued.
all I can say rev,
is while those bastards hold sway over the msm photos like that just play right into their hands, no matter the justification they WILL make a meal of that
until wingsover has critical mass and the general public come here for the truth then they are subject to the lies of the establishment
I would take that picture down my freind
It would be interesting to know what our ‘friends’ in America, and in particular, the ‘New Yourk Times’ think about the SOS image. The Scottish Saltire image is based on the famous image of American marines, hoisting the ‘Stars and Stripes’ on top of a hill they had taken In the war against Japan.
In America this image and the Stars and Stripes, are very important and any hint that anyone in the British media would superimpose a swastika over it !!! hmmm it might get very interesting.
I have seen people who have never spoken out on matters relating to the indyref up in arms about this today. The hardcore unionists are having to do extraordinary mental gymnastics to defend it. How can they think this is anything but an own goal?
“Serious question. Is what Scotland on Sunday did serious enough to merit police action? I mean, if any individual tried to smear another individual by suggesting they are a fascist or have nazi sympathies”
Well the article doesn’t specifically suggest that the SNP or Salmond are fascists or nazi sympathisers, so there probably isn’t a case.
@Bill McLean
Not trying yo get at you, though Hermione probably was. 59 people passedthrough the BFC’s hands, but they never had a strength higher than 32.
Though a couple of the BFC members fought for the Nazis, the unit never did. They were a joke in the “Levein, a manager, that’s a joke” sense, not that they were a prank.
The real fascist threat to the UK from its subjects came from the establishment, as you point out
Thanks Erchie – just blowing some anger out about our flag being used to imply that we were racist fascists. I’m sure there were some Scots who were pro-Nazi in the upper classes – there certainly were many in England. I’m afraid Hermone’s rabid anti-scottishness colours everything she writes – i’m anti no-one but certainly want the best for our little country! Thanks again!
“Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
7 April, 2013 at 12:54 pm
“Rev, I tend to agree with just about everything you and others have said on the site, but I really think the Swastika-Union Flag is a terrible way to illustrate your point: you have to know that this is going to be taken out of context, and engaging in exactly the sort of flag desecration you’re criticising here was unnecessary. The superimposition of the swastika onto the saltire is so inherently offensive to many that it didn’t need a Union counterpart.”
Um, I haven’t done anything to a Union Jack.”
Don’t take anything down. If they attack you they will be giving you and Wngs very good free publicity.
Just got a response to my complaint to the Press Complaints Commission – no surprises really. So your Nazi picture above is just fine and dandy too then Rev…
Further to our previous correspondence, the Commission has now made its assessment of your complaint under the Editors’ Code of Practice.
The Commission members have asked me to thank you for giving them the opportunity to consider the points you raised. However, their decision is that there has been no breach of the Code in this case. A full explanation of the Commission’s decision is below.
Although the Commissioners have come to this view, they have asked me to send a copy of your correspondence to the editor to draw your concerns to the publication’s attention.
If you are dissatisfied with the way in which your complaint has been handled – as opposed to the Commission’s decision itself – you should write within one month to the Independent Reviewer, whose details can be found in our How to Complain leaflet or on the PCC website at the following link:
link to pcc.org.uk
[…] all very pejorative and derogatory. The history of fallaciously linking the SNP to the Nazis is long and tiresome, mostly because Labour and the Conservatives are in no position to make any […]
[…] movement by association with the above organisations and individuals (not that such unfairness ever stopped No supporters from doing just that to Scottish independence supporters, of course): after all, […]