If nobody came
We hope the turnout for the independence rally in Edinburgh tomorrow is good. We encourage you to go if you can – the weather’s going to be quite nice, and it’s always lovely to be in Edinburgh for any reason. But we’re not quite sure what the point of it is or what it hopes to achieve, because as far as we can see the most – indeed, just about the only – likely outcome of it is a big propaganda coup for the No campaign.
The people of Catalonia set a pretty impossibly high bar earlier this month, with a rally that attracted between 1m and 1.5m marchers to Barcelona in support of independence from Spain – a staggering sum close to 20% of the entire population of the region. (We wish no offence to any Catalun readers by that term.) It seems fairly safe to say that in their wildest dreams the organisers of tomorrow’s event won’t be expecting a million Scots to show up (and just as well – if they wanted to there’d be sod-all chance of ScotRail getting them there), so even in a best-case scenario the comparison is going to be an easy shot for the Unionists.
(And who could blame them for taking it? We’ve enjoyed plenty of cheerful mockery of poorly-attended “No” gatherings in our time.)
Clearly, if the attendance is REALLY low – with Celtic playing at home on an SPL Saturday that’s uncommonly full of 3pm kickoffs – it’ll take nationalists until Christmas to live it down. More important than the comic opportunity it’ll give the “Better Together” crowd, though, it’ll also enable the pro-Union media to aggressively promote the public perception of independence as a tiny minority preoccupation. The almost total lack of coverage of the rally in the Scottish mainstream press (and indeed, even in the blogosphere) to date has laid the groundwork for that assault well in advance.
We live in an age when mass public protest is not just ineffective but almost always counter-productive. When students marched against tuition-fee increases and unions protested against cuts, the inevitable excesses in the face of severe provocation from the police gave the right-wing media a gold-plated stick to beat them with. When millions marched against the Iraq war, the government not only ignored them but used it as an excuse to drastically restrict civil liberties with regard to peaceful protest.
We don’t for a second anticipate any such violence tomorrow, not least because this is a rally that’s actually supported by the Scottish Government. But popular politics – particularly in Scotland – happens largely online now, bypassing the distorting one-eyed lens of the traditional media. People quietly gather information, make up their minds and act at the ballot box. No great outdoor rallies propelled the SNP to victory in 2007 or 2011. At best, tomorrow will be a fun day out, offering widely-scattered independence campaigners the chance to meet face-to-face and forge bonds and alliances. At worst it’ll be a major humiliation. In itself it will achieve nothing.
None of this should be taken as an exhortation not to attend. Quite the reverse – we need as many people there as possible to minimise any damage, and a fun day out of bonding and alliance-forming is obviously a good thing. But to our mind, the event creates an unnecessary hostage to fortune. Apart from the dangers to morale if the turnout is less than overwhelming, it’s already been seized on by the anti-independence parties to smear the SNP by association, and we certainly wouldn’t put false-flag operations beyond them on the day.
We hope the rally goes well. But unless it’s an unexpectedly huge success, we also hope nobody arranges another one any time soon.
I’ll be there. My main gripe is the music – not everyone in the country grew up next door to The Broons.
As soon as the Catalans got so many onto the streets it was obvious that, regardless of our turnout, the Unionists would use it as a benchmark. Best not to worry about it and just have a fun day meeting people.
Music is a bit of a weak link in the nationalist alliance. We’ve got authors and actors and comedians aplenty, but I don’t half long for a Mogwai or a Glasvegas to come out for the Yes movement…
Not that it’ll stop the no crowd and MSM, it wouldn’t be fair to compare tomorrows march with what went down in Catalonia, their independence movement is fuelled (among other things) by a pretty severe on-going economic crisis, we don’t really have that here (well, we do but its just not out there in the same way as it is in Iberia.)
I dare say if we had 20% unemployment, 50% youth unemployment, crippling mortgages that are impossible to be rid off and severe austerity being impossed by another country (oh, hold on,) the impetus would be far greater for people to come out and march here too.
Also, Latin temperament versus British reserve… And lets be honest, we’re all a wee bit jealous when it all kicks off in France, they know how to protest properly.
I think tomorrow will be a day of face painting and chit chat with some speeches, I’m looking forward to it. Just be ready with side-by-side shots with what transpires tomorrow and what happened with the no crowd’s roadshows two or three weekends ago for your blog on sunday.
And no, I won’t be getting my face painted.
The drunk guy from The View has come out as YES. Mogwai would be good, or the Phantom Band, or Frightened Rabbit, Mearsault… does anyone even ask these people?
The View have been quoted as pro.
So how many turned up on the Britmarch?
If the independence campaign were constrained by fear of unionist negativity and media bias we’d never do anything. There comes a point where you just have to accept that whatever you say or do is going to be misrepresented or spun into anti-independence propaganda. Trying to ensure that you don’t give British nationalists “ammunition” is a futile exercise that purposelessly limits the options available to independence campaigners while in no way preventing our opponents from peddling whatever lies and distortions they want.
The simple fact is that even if tomorrow’s rally matched or exceeded that in Barcelona, the response from media and Bitter Together would still be derision and insistence that the event had somehow “embarrassed” the SNP. Despite the fact that the SNP has nothing to do with organising the demonstration.
It is for the rest of us to highlight the dishonesty of the reporting and the offensiveness of the sneering contempt for people’s aspirations which will surely be the knee-jerk reaction of the usual suspects among “Scottish” Labour and their Tory allies.
That ‘drunk guy’ is a friend of my son. ;
Stuart Braithwaite of Mogwai is definitely pro independence as well as Bobby Gillespie. Those two could add some glamour to the independence cause
I’m very much looking forward to meeting some of you tomorrow. If nothing else: it’s a nice walk, a statement and a chance to make new friends.
Then again, it *might* just surprise all of us.
“There comes a point where you just have to accept that whatever you say or do is going to be misrepresented or spun into anti-independence propaganda.”
Sure. I just don’t see the merit in making it extra-specially easy for them.
@Juteman
You’ll know what I mean then.
I must admit, it does concern me slightly that this is happening on a day when many people will be going to the football (although I suppose anyone going to see Caley Thistle playing Hibs at Easter Road could feasibly attend the march beforehand, since it finishes at 1pm…). Although it’s also Fresher’s Week, so Edinburgh’s student numbers should be at their peak.
Anyway, totally see what you’re saying. It was plain from Scotland Tonight last night that the unionist and media narratives are going to be about focussing on the numbers, rather than the event itself, and I think we all know unionists are going to try and claim that the numbers that show up somehow “prove” there’s no appetite for independence, as if every single person who is going to vote YES will be there. However, any negative headlines will soon be forgotten, and I think the point of this is just to give a physical showing that there are people who care about independence. It perhaps makes the whole idea seem a bit more real than any opinion poll would do.
The very fact that there are a bunch of people marching for independence is more important than the numbers (unless 100 people show up…) Will it achieve anything? Not in itself, but it’s just another way to get people involved in the campaign – I’m sure I won’t be the only person attending whose contribution has so far gone no further than tapping away at my keyboard, and after this march, I dare say I’ll feel compelled to do more.
But I still understand where you’re coming from. One thing I would say though is that the difference between this and, say, students protesting about tuition fees or people camping outside St Paul’s is that this isn’t intended as a demonstration aimed at politicians – it’s about ordinary people just declaring that they believe in something, and calling on others to join them. Protests are useless because politicians just ignore them, but this isn’t intended to change the minds of any politician, so it sidesteps that issue neatly.
(There are another two booked for next year and the year after, incidentally!)
I’ll be there. I’ve arranged a lift on one of the official buses.
I tend to agree with both RevStu and Peter here. It probably won’t be an overwhelming number, and the media will spin it badly anyway. But sometimes you have to do something anyway. It’ll be a nice day out and a chance to meet folks.
@Cuphook. 🙂
I’ll be off as soon as the bands come on though – Scotland has made some outstanding contributions to music over the years (Cocteau Twins, early Simple Minds, Associates, every single record that John McGeoch played guitar on…) but I’ve no interest in listening to a bunch of shitey local bands. I had enough of sitting through other people’s inferior pish when I was in a band myself…
Interesting you mention Mogwai though Stu – Stuart Braithwaite is very much an independence supporter!
Every great journey begins with one step……..
“Interesting you mention Mogwai though Stu – Stuart Braithwaite is very much an independence supporter!”
I wish someone had asked him (and the others people have mentioned) to sign up at the YesScotland launch, then.
Hear Hear @Peter A Bell
The ‘Scottish’ MSM have long since divested themselves of any notional obligation to report on facts (your piece on the Record yesterday was just one example of that, Stu). Whatever happens tomorrow (and I’ll be there) it will be portrayed negatively in the MSM and on the BBC (if it is reported at all).
However, it is likely that – let’s call them euphemistically ‘Better Together’ campaigners – will be there tomorrow to make mischief, as it appears they did in George Square for the Olympic parade. One suspects members of the ‘Scottish’ MSM are already fully aware of that.. 😉
@Training Day
I’m not the paranoid type but I was watching last night’s Scotland Today and the Better Together spokesperson said a few times that he hoped there’d be no violence etc on the march.
“I wish someone had asked him (and the others people have mentioned) to sign up at the YesScotland launch, then.”
Unfortunately he’s not quite the recognisable face that even Martin Compston is, never mind Alan Cumming or Brian Cox. Still, maybe if this march is a success, we’ll see bigger names at next year’s one?
Or they could maybe replace music with comedy, seeing as how pretty much every comedian to come out of Scotland supports independence (other than Laird Connolly of Strathdon, of course…)
I tend to agree with Peter A.Bell, there has to be a point when you should act without over thinking how the opposition will portray it (a state of mind I find I get sucked into a bit too much in cyber politics). I find I’m really interested in what it’ll feel like, it’s ten years since I’ve been on any kind of a march. I’ll be there with a 70’s radical lefty and a vaguely Blairite centrist, so I hope it bodes well for a broad church crowd – or even a broad crowd!
I agree completely Stu. I’m not sure of the value of this given that we already know how the media will spin it. The Barca rally came at just the wrong time, or just the right time if you’re a unionist hack
I just think it’s too early to expect a proper turnout for this kind of demo. Is it planned to have one in 2013 & 2014 also?
The referendum is barely on the Scots publics radar at the moment. Obviously this will change as we move closer to 2014, but it’s unrealistic to expect big numbers tomorrow. The proper one, if there is one, will be in 2014.
Hey ho, hopefully I’m very wrong, and they’ll be tens of thousands thronging the streets of Edinburgh…
I’m sure the MSM have their stories already written: “Embarrassment for SNP as only (fill in blank) turn out for Independence rally … an indicator that Scots don’t have an appetite for separation.” Cue quotes from the usual Unionist politico suspects. All too predictable!
Traditionally Scots only take to the streets in anger over an injustice, otherwise we are a bit reserved. Take the Devolution vote in ’97, that was a very quiet affair, people went into cast their vote, came out, went home. No fuss or flag waving. Even a week after the Devo vote people were only just beginning to talk about what they voted for.
I’m not sure what the purpose of this event is, maybe to reassure other Scots that you don’t need to be feart. Like other posters I just think this is handing the Unionists a stick to beat the SNP with. I feel the same with the one million signatures campaign (even though I have signed it).
Best wishes to those who are going to Edinburgh tomorrow (I’m in London unfortunately), I do sincerely hope it is an impressive turn out.
It is certain as the sun rising that they will spin it as a “failure” even if it goes really well and as a direct attack against the SNP and Alex. I hope they don’t sink any lower than that and people keep an eye out for any agent provocatuers… it isn’t exactly unheard of these days. Almost standard practice from what I’ve seen.
The difference between Catalonia and Scotland is that there is going to be a referendum in a couple of years here. We´ll get our voice then and I´m sure many will simply “bide their time” by getting on with daily life.
There is no referendum planned, at least not yet, in Catalonia. Catalonians need to be seen to be marching to have their voices heard.
For some young folk, this will be the first time they have taken part in a march/demonstration.
I remember as a young man, taking part in demos in the late ’70, early ’80,s. Although i wasn’t too sure why i was marching, speaking to other folk, and hearing ‘politics’ discussed excited me. My eyes were opened.
Don’t dismiss the importance of this to the young folk who will be our future.
“I’m not sure what the purpose of this event is, maybe to reassure other Scots that you don’t need to be feart.”
I would say that’s EXACTLY what it’s about, actually. I just had a pub lunch with my work colleagues and admitted that I was going to the march, and was met with a wall of bemusement that I want Scotland to be independent. Sometimes it can be easy to feel like you’re in a minority, so a visual display like this can be a god way of reminding people that independence is not just for shortbread-eating, kilt-wearing, Braveheart-watching, anti-English nutters. It’s for all us normal(?) folks.
I hope a good crowd turns up though and there’s a good time had by all. It would help the morale and networking of the Yes crowd to meet up in person and have fun. Juteman is probably right in that many things may be learned and perhaps even a few who are not fully decided may be tipped over into the Yes crowd from what they learn.
Aye, Doug. There is still a taboo about talking politics and an even bigger one about admitting to wanting independence or voting SNP, despite it clearly having significant support. Heck, we see more open admissions and displays of people in the old fringe groups who like to play songs about starving people.
I think this strange taboo needs to be broken down. How we managed to get this far with it in place, I’ll never know, but finally being able to discuss it without whispers and caution would help.
I’m a manual worker, and there is absolutely no taboo about discussing independence amongst my friends and workmates. What you are describing seems very strange. Stop worrying about what other folk may think, and open up. You may be surprised.
Maybe the reason that the MSM don’t back independence, is that nobody owns up to being a Nationalist at ‘dinner parties’ that these folk attend, so they actually believe their group think?
Get down the pub, and you’ll find a different conversation.
I’ve never been on a march or rally for anything in my life but I’ll be there tomorrow.
There comes a time when you just have to come out of the independence closet and declare to the world that you’re no longer embarrassed by your desire for independence for your country.
It probably will be portrayed by MSM and unionists as a let down on the numbers irrespective of how many turn up, but on the other hand, it could just show the rest of the country that it’s not just those few derided individuals characterised as Cybernats that hide behind avatars and keyboards who want Scotland to be independent.
Dcanmore said – ‘Take the Devolution vote in ’97, that was a very quiet affair, people went into cast their vote, came out, went home. No fuss or flag waving.’
Good point. Maybe we’ll never see mass demos in Scotland for indy.
Also, I think once people are alone in that little voting booth in 2014, I’m confident that a Yes vote will be returned. After all, surely Scotland isn’t going to wilfully give away control of their own affairs? Surely?
I was struck by a comment from James Kelman – How many other countries do we know, how many cultures in the world do we know where there’s a debate about ‘should we determine our own existence or not?’
If Scotland votes No, it calls into question what Scotland actually is.
But a real distinct country? I don’t think so.
I think it really depends where you live. Here in Newton Mearns supporting the SNP and independence often feels like a minority pursuit, but then this area is not typical for Scotland at all — after all, the Tories didn’t lose their seat here till 1997.
My 15-y.o. stepson is quite positive when it comes to independence, but he says all his friends are against it, so he’d feel like a freak if it supported it openly. I think the Yes campaign needs to think hard about how to engage Yes supporters in areas dominated by the No side.
Juteman – unfortunately things are different when you’re in an office full of middle-class software developers who have gone straight from university into a pretty well-paid job – especially in Aberdeen! A lot of people are content to just leave things as they are, ignoring the possibility that they could one day be the ones needing to rely on public services and welfare which have been decimated by neo-liberal demagogues in Westminster.
Well, the assembly point is less than 200 yards from my flat, so I don’t really have any excuse…
Will be interesting to see how many folk turn up.
“we also hope nobody arranges another one any time soon.”
There will be a further two March + Rally events in 2013 and 2014.
The experience in terms of chat about independence will be different for everyone, I work in a well heeled office environment and folk are engaged with it, to a surprising extent.
Couple if things, some commentors are asking, whats the point, people will quietly vote yes anyway. If this is true as was the case in the original devo vote and again in 2011, then it’ll make no difference whether we do it or not.
And, those who say people aren’t engaged with the debate, how else can they encouraged to get engaged if not by things like this? I mean, its not like the BBC are going to get people engaged is it? Since we’ve been doing this online, the whole cybernat thing has grown, it makes no difference what we do, it’ll be criticized by the no mob.
On balance, doing something is better than doing nothing.
I think part of the problem is people are afraid to come (so to speak) as being independence supporters, there’s still a taboo about it. If people see even a couple of thousand marching between the meadows and PSG’s then I think it will be meaningful.
Some of the comments smack ever so slightly of the three ‘too’ arguments, not in a financial sense but in an aspirational sense and I find that a wee bit sad.
We should start a sweep stake. Say units of 100 people turning out (50 either side of the guess.) My pound coin goes on: 3000 (no idea whos figures we’d take as fact right enough. 😉
I understand what you are saying Doug. My daughter is at Uni with a broad mix of folk. Some of them are minor Aristos, and their viewpoint is ‘why fix something that isn’t broke’.
They are totally oblivious to what is happening amongs ‘ordinary’ folk.
Don’t worry, us ordinary ‘plebes’ will come good at the vote when the gate is opened. 🙂
Leaving aside all the other political parties involved, if only 50% of the SNP membership come out and support this march tomorrow then we have a starting point of 10,000 people
If they bring someone along with them……
See where I am going here?
I for one will be making the journey there with my wee lassie (2 and a half) from Ayrshire, and one day in the future she might be able to tell the story to her grandweans about how she went on a march for her country, and it’s future, with her auld dad….
“But popular politics – particularly in Scotland – happens largely online now”
I’m really not at all sure that this is actually the case. Get out from behind the computer as start asking people in any high street in the country which political blogs they read, and I’ll bet 99% of them will look at you like you’ve just sprouted an extra head.
We don’t do street parties, we don’t do street rallies. We just undemonstratively get on with things. Good luck to the folk on the march though. I don’t intend to march, but want to see some of the speeches.
But Mogwai?? I’d rather have Sandi Thom…
The Scots are not a demonstrative race. We don’t ‘do’ emotion.
Nemo me impune lacessit.
It was always gonna be a double edged event… I reckon any number of people north of 10,000 will be remarkable.
even if 1,000,000 folks turned up, the unionist press and the usual suspects would have something negative to report so like some have said, don’t let that inevitability worry you.
Professionally, I am up against it at work but I know for a fact in my personal life with family and friends I have persuaded at least 3 life long labour supporters, 1 – to vote SNP at the last elections, and 2 – to vote Yes in 2014.
Agree with Doug above – there’s no chance of a ‘grass roots’ movement if we all cower in our houses afraid of bad PR.
I remember going to Scotland United events and (a?) march and it was great for exposing the normality (and existence) of nationalists. They turned out to not be all tweed-encrusted beardies.
In summary: FFS, independence is a huge deal and if people aren’t up to a walk now and again then forget about a majority voting for it when the time comes.
It’s true, better to light a candle than curse the darkness. Unless it goes very wrong indeed then it should help things along. Perhaps closer to the big day there will be repeat and bigger or more varied events too. We’re still in the “powder dry” stage.
Oh come on, let’s go for it: “For as long as but a hundred of us remain…………….”. This is not about showing off to the unionist MSM. This is all about ordinary scots finally learning to stand up and be counted for what they believe in. Its about removing the taboo of independence. It may well start small (and they will laugh at us), but it will not end small (and they will laugh no more). I am a member of no political party, and I have before never traveled to a march in my life. I would not miss this for the world. We are living out history. Even if there is only two of us, I would be there. Coming down from Aberdeen. Here’s to a great day out.
“Get out from behind the computer as start asking people in any high street in the country which political blogs they read, and I’ll bet 99% of them will look at you like you’ve just sprouted an extra head.”
Quite true. But then half of them couldn’t tell you Willie Rennie from Jimmy Johnstone either, and half of them don’t even vote. “Popular politics” was probably the wrong term to use, though – “political activism” would have been a better choice.
Hi
I agree with many of the comments for and against the march. I’m hardly the hot bed of political knowledge however since David Cameron started his whinge earlier this year, I decided I had better do something about independence. So I started reading wider and joined twitter then I found other people who will vote yes and know their stuff politically. This made me feel better, I was not alone and for me going to the march tomorrow is simply that, meaning I’m not alone.
I have never marched for anything so if I’m gonna then it should be independence.
My mother and daughter will be there too. I’m looking forward to it as the opportunity to meet others is too good to miss.
Hail alba
Well said Luigi.
What’s with the Armani new header Stu?
“Popular politics” was probably the wrong term to use, though – “political activism” would have been a better choice.
Well, I’d have to disagree with you there again… There’s no such thing as internet activism. Activism involves being active. Now, don’t get me wrong, it’s all good clean fun for those involved and that’s a good thing in itself, but in the grand scheme of things it doesn’t actually matter a damn, because the only people reading are already involved and have already made their minds up on most of the issues. Be honest – have you ever seen anything on the internet that’s actually convinced anybody to change their minds about anything in any significant way? You’re either preaching to the choir, or providing target practice for trolls. Like I say, all good clean fun and nothing I’d want to discourage, but not exactly meaningful. We’re not activists in here – we’re anoraks, sitting in a locked cupboard which nobody on the outside even knows exists, never mind cares about, talking about issues hardly anybody is interested in, in a language nobody else understands. The My Little Pony fandom probably has more impact on the real world.
I think a decent showing in Edinburgh tomorrow is likely to be worth more than every pro-Independence blog post ever written. If it can make just one person seriously reconsider their support for the status quo, or cause just one disaffected, apolitical Saturday shopper to pay attention to the issue for five minutes, then something will have been achieved.
Seriously, political blogging is like masturbation – it’s great fun, but it’s not going to change anything.
I have never ever gone on a march for anything before. I’ve always believed in the political process of elections, not marching up and down. However, this cause is just too important. Especially now my eyes have been opened to the poor, if not openly biased, reporting of the media about my country and it’s future. This I can no longer put up with. The media can ignore a few hundred people, but thousands, tens of thousands, especially through the streets of our capital city. They can’t ignore that!
Scotland can count on me to be there.
O/T.
Ill say it again. Why are the likes of ‘sm’, ‘excel’, etc, allowed to post freely on NNS? The comments section is almost dead, as so many folk are banned,
Something stinks at NNS, and folk should beware.
The header seems to be changing more often than the weather and that’s saying something. Obviously trying to pick from a few ideas. Go for it, Stu. It’ll be interesting to see what you settle on.
@Dunc
I disagree that all internet blogging, etc. has no effect. Opinions of others do have an impact on other people, online or otherwise, just as people all have their own opinions online or offline. Your mistake is probably one of expecting people to have a “Eureka!” moment and instant conversion in a thread, perhaps suddenly humbly begging forgiveness, etc. That doesn’t happen with people face to face either. It can take months or years to slowly change opinions, but they do with time. My own on various issues have not been set in stone and I’ve seen others change too. What is important is to voice the Independence support, opinions, reasons and facts backing it. If you don’t air those opinions at all then they’ll never find new homes or have a chance to take root elsewhere. But probably best to do it as Stu suggested, without the swivel-eyed element and as if someone undecided was watching. We don’t want to become negative and full of bitterness like the Better Together lot.
With the heavy political-topic taboos in the culture the online element becomes all the more important as people suddenly feel more free than they did before to share their thoughts and concerns.
According to the MSM, independence is supported by Alex Salmon and a few matters hiding behind their keyboards. I think the march will show the support to be much wider, and will inspire many of us to get out there into the community and get our message across with confidence.
No matter how many people turn out tomorrow, it will make no difference at all to what happens in 2014; Scottish MPs will be leaving the HoC and I remain confident they won’t be standing for the 2015 UKGE.
The Catalan analogy is poor. They are being essentailly denied the opportunity to have a referedum. In Scotland, independence is ours to take if we so wish; there is no real need to march/protest for it.
Enjoy tomorrow. I will be there with clan in tow if my new fridge is delivered early enough. New fridge over a free Scotland I hear you say… I apologise, but see above reasoning. 😉
Sorry about typos: Salmond, nutters. Blasted predictive text!
“Be honest – have you ever seen anything on the internet that’s actually convinced anybody to change their minds about anything in any significant way?”
Yes. Happens to me all the time. It’s not that anyone reads a single article and goes “Eureka!”, but the internet can provide sourced, detailed facts to counter the lies and misinformation of the mainstream media in a way that bumping into a random activist at a march can’t. You just can’t convey the sort of information found in blogs in person, and that information changes just as many minds as more emotional stimuli do. Both are valuable in reaching different kinds of people.
EDIT: As Appleby seems to have already said while I was typing all that…
Dunc “We’re not activists in here – we’re anoraks, sitting in a locked cupboard which nobody on the outside even knows exists, never mind cares about, talking about issues hardly anybody is interested in, in a language nobody else understands”.
No. For every person that comments, probably at least 10-100, maybe more, just read. Once they make up their minds from reading, you might find they start posting here and there.
That’s why Rev Stu always says post in the understanding that people (meaning those who may not have made up their minds) will read your post.
I will be attending the event tomorrow and am looking forward to it.
@Dunc
I was NOT an independence supporter until I was reading the papers online and couldnt believe the vitriol pointed to Scotland after the SNP won their landslide. It made me search out information on the accusations that were being made.
Many posters were debunking these accusations really effectively and it convinced me there was more to the story… so I started digging.
Blogs may not have been the direct catalyst but the information that people posted online to counter misinformation came from those blogs and once your eyes are open they are great to find out more.
Blogs like this will be essential in providing the information people need in the run up to the referendum. As it draws closer eventually people will begin to want to know more,
“For every person that comments, probably at least 10-100, maybe more, just read”
Indeed. There’s probably a “hardcore” of 20 or so who ever post comments, but the blog has thousands of unique readers every day.
“Ill say it again. Why are the likes of ‘sm’, ‘excel’, etc, allowed to post freely on NNS? The comments section is almost dead, as so many folk are banned,
Something stinks at NNS, and folk should beware.”
Because NutNet is run by my colleagues across the hall, here at Thames House.
Didn’t you know?
@sm753
Because NutNet is run by my colleagues across the hall, here at Thames House.
Yes, that would fit with my ‘Tories want Scottish independence’ theory.
“scottish_skier says:
No matter how many people turn out tomorrow, it will make no difference at all to what happens in 2014; Scottish MPs will be leaving the HoC and I remain confident they won’t be standing for the 2015 UKGE.”
OF COURSE!
No point in holding this referendum folks. It’s all being sorted out behind the scenes, isn’t it? Don’t stop believin’.
“Yes, that would fit with my ‘Tories want Scottish independence’ theory. ”
I have this new concept for you. It’s called “irony”, and has nothing to do with pressing clothes.
sm753. I have a new concept for you. It’s called sarcasm. It’s different from irony you know.
I hope you realise I am but a mere mortal commenting on blogs. If I was running the Yes campaign, I might use that 80’s hit though.
George and IDS performed well in Glasgow BTW, that last Labour bastion still needing a bit of an SNP nudge. Scottish Goverment responded perfectly. Loved it.
No matter how many can make tomorrow’s march I think that how or if the Beeb report it could be a game changer. I believe Sky is covering it and STV were discusing it last night so have a good day to all who can make it. Ignore the troll as feeding it is wasted energy.
@ Juteman, agreed about NNS there’s some weird shit going on over on that site, most of the news items are lucky if they get a dozen comments now, and always the same commenters, I’m avoiding it now most of the time.
CynicalHighlander.
The occasional troll is a good sign. It’s when you find yourself as the troll/part of a small minority in your views that you need to be concerned.
favourable weather report, day oot in auld reekie; i’ll be there with a few faithfuls.
Getting back to the topic in hand, is there any way for us “hard-core 20” to know each other tomorrow? Red rose in the buttonhole or something like that? (Not serious, I don’t do buttonholes.)
If only I hadn’t left it till today to come up with a snazzy logo I could have printed on badges and t-shirts…
We could cunningly wear or hold something with the saltire on it. That should do it. 😉
“It’s when you find yourself as the troll/part of a small minority in your views that you need to be concerned. ”
Yes you do. Don’t you?
It’s even worse when you only ever contribute to blogs which agree with your pre-formed viewpoint. “I think this”. Oh, look at the replies: “I agree.” “I agree.” “I agree too, and you are so clever.” Enjoy for the next two years. Pity about afterwards.
@ Rev. Stu
There’s always next time. I’m sure there will be events closer to the big day.
“It’s even worse when you only ever contribute to blogs which agree with your pre-formed viewpoint.”
The problem, of course, is that it’s extremely and increasingly hard to be allowed to contribute to blogs that don’t.
http://wingsland.podgamer.com/courage-and-convictions-the-state-of-the-scottish-online-media-and-blogosphere/
I can think of very few Unionist blogs now that don’t pre-moderate comments, and very aggressively so. The official Better Together site red-pens just about everything from nationalists.
Tomorrow is going to be great. Two of the most die hard hibees I know are going on the March, foregoing their pre match libation( I know they usually need it before most Hibs games:)) to express their support for Scotland. This is a pleasant surprise for me as my buddies will be marching alongside me but in a wider sense I feel their participation is a good barometer of the strength of feeling among non anoraks like them.
Pity you didnt ask Peter Wishart MSP to get his Runrig bandmates(Dont know if former bandmates lol) and the old singer former parliamentary candidate Donnie Munro (Labour )who was lead singer for a while
The difference is that you can post on Stu’s blog, sm.
Look for indepentistas posts on unionist blogs.
Fuckin twat!
I’ll be the guy with the poly bag of tennents superlager.
The last march I was on was in support of ninewells hospital .
I am gutted that I am out of the country and not going to be able to go on the march tomorrow .
I am sure that my wife booked the weekend away deliberately you know .
If there is one next year I will do my best to make sure I am at it .
Good luck and best wishes to everyone going on tomorrow’s march .
Well for all of you going to the march tomorrow, my gratitude, I am so jealous of you.
At least in the future when your grandkids are discussing at school how independence came back to Scotland, they can say my (dad & mum, grannie & granda, uncle & auntie) my family marched to support independence.
You are not just doing this for yourselves, you are doing it for all of us that cant be there, you are marching for our childrens future.
Forget the parties, forget the beliefs, forget the negativity, go and show Scotland Independence is here and its bideing.
Enjoy yerselfs.
RSC
“I can think of very few Unionist blogs now that don’t pre-moderate comments, and very aggressively so.”
Well, I don’t. Of course I have little time these days to post stuff, so that’s a problem.
“Juteman says:
Fuckin twat!”
Ah, abuse.
This is the difference between us – and you.
Are you sure you wouldn’t like to make a few threats of violence while you’re at it?
sm
Oh, really?
http://wingsland.podgamer.com/tag/cyberbrits/
There will be others ho want to be there, but whose conditions of employment forbid the. Not saying some of those won’t be tHere anyway, but that shouldn’t.
Good luck, it’s a he’ll of a risk. You can already see Kenny Farq ontwitter salivating, ready lab keel any number that turns up as a failure
I matters not one jot how many turn out. The fact that people have the guts to turn out at all is in my opinion great and shows us what courage they have. Even if 2 million turned out it would be panned in the MSM and by the Conservative Unionists No To Scotland Squad. Their weekend blitz was a total humiliation but not one journalist made anything of it on the MSM. I am confident that we will get a fair turn out. The unionists are running scared, their every lie and scaremongering belch proves it. It is actually quite hilarious listening to the like of Rennie and the lugubrious Ken Macintosh spouting their lies unchallenged in the MSM. Swinney ripped Macintosh to shreds in Holyrood. The Labour love in with the Tory’s will see them finished in Scotland for a long long time. I will be there with my camera looking for the agents of the Brit state. They will be there.
sm753
You will be feeling very smug now that you have achieved what you came here for. Have a nice night under your rock. This blog has the kind of status that you could only dream of in the lie infested joke that is yours.
Well (sm775533), you should try something like the “labour hame” site they would love your type of guff, you would fit right in there, I’m no use there myself because as soon as I make them uncomfortable by challageing their twisted half-truth tripe they moderate me straight off, and therefore start believing they have won the arguement. And as you do have a habit of disappearing when things get a little uncomfortable and you do quote quite a bit of tripe I believe you may find a “hame” there.
BYE BYE.
I apologise for calling you a twat, sm.
May your thoughts of violence keep you warm through the long and dark nights.
Either that or your scented candles.
“And as you do have a habit of disappearing when things get a little uncomfortable ”
…no, I simply have other and better things to do…
“and you do quote quite a bit of tripe”
Quelle “tripe”? References please.
sm753.
Out of interest. What is your prediction for the political future of Scotland?
I assume you believe in a no vote in 2014, but I’d be keen to hear what you think would happen then, namely how Scots will vote in the 2015 UKGE, and the same for the 2016 SGE? Also, what do you think the reasoning was for Scots to vote for their own parliament in 1979 and 1997, likewise for electing independence supporting parties first in minorty in 2007, then in majority in 2011? I’d be interested in your thoughts on Tory successes in particular, given you seem to be that way inclinded (please correct me if you are more left wing).
A tripe quote “…no, I simply have other and better things to do…” as just quoted when said (sm753) was informed he has a habit of disappearing when things get a little uncomfortable. simples eck.
scottish_skier says:
September 21, 2012 at 8:14 pm
CynicalHighlander.
The occasional troll is a good sign. It’s when you find yourself as the troll/part of a small minority in your views that you need to be concerned
I look at it like a little baby crying for attention who if left undisturbed will go to sleep allowing the grownups to carry on an intelligent discussion.
CH
If it wisnae for the fact that he makes mair sense, I would say my cat’s like that too.
I’ll be getting on the bus leaving from Oban at about 7.15am after an hour plus drive to get there. Will need to get up at the back of 5 to prepare the porridge for the day’s sustenance ! Yes, it’ ll be a long day, but it’s one I’m looking forward to.
Oh yes, and fuck the lying, misinforming, unfit for purpose MSM; they’re on a scaremongering agenda against Scotland’s right to self-determination – the No and Bitter Thegither’s mouthpiece. There’s a propaganda war on right now, with the MSM winning. Anything that can be done by those who wish for Scottish independence has to be backed, and that’s why the march and rally in Edinburgh on Saturday is something that I am happy to attend.
Amazing how many people claim to have such “busy” schedules yet use up that precious free time by being obnoxious to strangers on some small corner of the internet. Deluded or liars? One or the other, but it adds up to trolling either way. Such people are a waste of time.
Dal Riata wins thread.
(I’ll be having a lie in till maybe nine. The bus coming up from Dumfries is going to stop to pick me up maybe 10.20. It should take me perhaps five minutes to cycle to the bus stop on the main road. Poor me!)
I cant get (I’m in Serbia working right now) but will be thinking of you. I will search the net for some unbiased reporting – RT looks like a likely starting point. Please post videos as soon as you can
Hail Alba
I suggest everyone keeps the mobile phone handy or camera for video and pictures of the day. It’ll let you tell the story too, rather than just the MSM.
Morag
I was going to say it’s a close thing with Mitt Romney, but http://www.bbc-scotlandshire.webridean.com/ seems to have been taken down. SHAME.
@sm753
Rest assured that if Juteman or any of the other thugs on this site ever threatened you with violence, I would stand between youz and protect you with my life.
You’re still a fuckin twat though. Best that you just fuck off.
SM753
No point in holding this referendum folks. It’s all being sorted out behind the scenes, isn’t it?
Yes, the ‘there is not going to be a referendum’ pediction has featured prominently in the MSM recently. Mainly from the right-wing/Tory favouring media.
Oh good it’s back up at http://www.bbc.scotlandshire.co.uk/
If people tweet pics tomorrow, I’ll add all the good ones to a blog post as the day goes on. Stick an “@WingsScotland” on the tweet if you want to make sure I see it.
Meanwhile, we’ve now got a settled new header/logo. What do we think? The slogan’s up for grabs if anyone can think of a better one.
IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY YOU ARE MARCHING TOMORROW I SUGGEST TO HAVE A LOOK AT “IAN SMARTS” LATEST CREATION ON LABOUR HAME.
As I know my reply to him will be moderated off, please excuse me for repeating it here.
(Regarding Ian Smart’s miscalling of the SNP regarding welfare cuts on labour hame site.)
“All this from the party that is in bed with the very people who are cutting the welfare benefits of the most disadvantaged in our socity, while giving tax-cuts to those who need it least. Shame on you and shame on labour.
Go on mod that truth off.”
Thanks for your indulgence, a very angry Davy.
Vote YES.
“The slogan’s up for grabs if anyone can think of a better one”
Wings over Scotland – Soaring above the Scottish Media
Ooh, I like that.
Im gutted wont be there but after waiting for over an hour for the RAC on the A9 it looks like our trip is over.
Ill be watching your updates on the pics though REv and after spending the last couple of weeks being kicked off the union pages and banned the positivity which I am sure will shine through and help to keep me cheerful through the next wee while.
Scott Minto (Aka Sneekyboy) says:
September 21, 2012 at 10:18 pm
“The slogan’s up for grabs if anyone can think of a better one”
Wings over Scotland – Soaring above the Scottish Media
Much better!
Sorry if I’m being picky but the lion looks a bit odd facing to the right.
@ Richie
now youve pointed it out yes it does
I put it that way for a reason – to signify change from the status quo, and because walking to the right is the “forward” movement in a country where we read left to right.
Andrew, that is absolutely hilarious! I hope whoever is doing that keeps it up.
@Morag
Thanks for that Morag, but I believe there’s a bus leaving Wick at 5.00am, so there’ll be a few people up a good while earlier than me!! … Which reminds me .. got to get some sleep! Goodnight all – and here’s to a good day tomorrow!
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
September 21, 2012 at 10:38 pm
I put it that way for a reason – to signify change from the status quo, and because walking to the right is the “forward” movement in a country where we read left to right.
Ok.
It’s your website.
Re the new bheader : Looks clunky. Preferred the old one.
Re the new header : Looks clunky. Preferred the old one.
Rev. Stuart Campbell:
September 21, 2012 at 5:35 pm
”half of them couldn’t tell you Willie Rennie from Jimmy Johnstone either”
Easy, Willie Rennie dribbles more.
But Jimmy dribbled tae greater purpose.
What about something like this?
http://imageshack.us/a/img33/8230/eaglen.jpg
(something like)
Anyway. Bed. I’ve got to go on a march the morn.
Can’t be there as am out of the Country but will be back home next week-end.
I am lousy at planning.
Been reading this from a good ways away from Scotland. Appreciate the writing and the subject matter. Not sure that I agree, though, with the following from your recent post (copied below):
“We live in an age when mass public protest is not just ineffective but almost always counter-productive. When students marched against tuition-fee increases and unions protested against cuts, the inevitable excesses in the face of severe provocation from the police gave the right-wing media a gold-plated stick to beat them with. When millions marched against the Iraq war, the government not only ignored them but used it as an excuse to drastically restrict civil liberties with regard to peaceful protest.“
The newly elected government in Quebec just repealed the tuition hikes enacted by the recently defeated “neo-con” Liberal Party. The new government’s Premier, (Quebec’s first woman Premier), and her party also repealed Bill 78, which had implemented draconian restrictions on basic civil rights and established outlandish penalties for anyone demonstrating publicly against the previous government’s policies. Bill 78 had also established horrendous fines for students supporting their student unions in almost any way.
The change in government was a direct effect of the student strike and subsequent public demonstrations by people from all walks of life in Quebec. A stunning victory for good sense and civility. Perhaps a harbinger of things to come. I hope so.
“Wings over Scotland – crapping on the Scottish MSM from a great height” ?
Ok, well maybe not.
Richie says:
@sm753
“You’re still a fuckin twat though. Best that you just fuck off. ”
Ah, the positive case for separation.
Oh, DO shush, you baby. The briefest glance at your blog reveals a place more than happy to throw around abusive jibes (a particularly ugly and sustained assault on Christine Grahame’s personal appearance leaps out), so either put your own house in order or spare us the fake outrage. Such blatant hypocrisy borders on trolling.
If I could say just one thing it would be this – Don’t bother with Labour Hame or indeed Ian Smart and the likes except for entertainment purposes. There is absolutely no use as these are people who piss in the well they drink from. You can’t debate anything with these people whatsoever. I mean look at Sm753 – he avoided the whole ATOS story, but then turns up on this thread, basically trying to piss in. When he is confronted with an uncomfortable truth, he switches to another topic in the same manner Slab keep trying to land one on AS during FMQs – no matter how dumb it makes them look.
Ian Smart and his ilk are banal unionists. They have never had to defend it, they have never bothered to extol it’s virtues, and they sat by and did nothing while the tories and their own party dismantled it. Now it is being challanged in a way that it never has experienced since the great disruption of 1843. They are being challanged to defend the Union and its value to Scotland. They suddenly find they don’t actually have any reasons for it to continue – not really – not anymore. So whats left is a bizarre attempt to to enthuse about the status quo, which changing everyday in England, making Scotland look like a different country every day. They have went for negativity, but that argument doesn’t fair well when it bumps into reality. They can’t see Scotland straight anymore or the SNP for that matter. They indulged in the creation of a petty and narrow narrative fallacy. They attempted imho, to wrap it around Scotland, but all they succeeded in doing was wrap themselves up in it.
Even now they are convinced they have played a blinder by denying a second question. If they had had any belief in their Union rather than a banal acceptance of it simply existing…they should have let the indyref happen in 2007 and if they had any doubts they should have allowed a second question.
As the calendar moves on slowly towards the big day…the damage being inflicted upon the english by this coalition government will undermine the status quo. It will grapically demonstrate how untrue “better together” actually is. When I vote yes, it’s not because I am some fiery nationalist…I am voting yes because I fear the insanity unfolding down south will eventually creep up here if we stay in Union.
Back in the day Unionists with conviction were also unashamed nationalists. They believed in Union because they believed it served Scotland and protected Scotland from their aggressive neighbour. I don’t think anyone but Ian Smart and his kind believe that anymore. I certainly don’t
I’ll leave off here, otherwise this post is going to ramble on
Morning. Beautiful sunny day here in Marchmont with clear blue skies. A very short walk for me down to the Meadows but I hope to see as many as possible of you down there this morning. I think it’s going to be great – and if I manage to identify any of you there (or you me) I’ll buy the first round afterwards (or tea if you prefer).
(By the way, for anyone out of town, the scary residents’ parking restrictions do not apply at weekends so you can park anywhere in Marchmont if you like. Mind the yellow lines though…they’re still armed).
Just about to head for the bus stop. Sun splitting the sky here in the Pentlands. I won’t know any of you from Adam, but I’m sure we’ll all have a great day.
@James Morton.
Back in the day Unionists with conviction were also unashamed nationalists. They believed in Union because they believed it served Scotland.
The classic quote:
“I believe every Scotsman should be a Scottish nationalist.”
John Buchan, Scottish Unionist MP.
Aye, back in the first half of the 20th Century, the world was one of great empires, Britain’s included. The UK Union was created for the purpose of empire building. Scottish Unionists were ‘nationalists’ but felt Scotland benefited more by being in the union/empire than being out of it.
Of course as the British Empire started to collapse, so the Scottish Unionist vote declined. Dropped from a high of 50% in 1955 to 25-31% 1974-79. Tories/Unionists were on the way out well before Thatcher even appeared on the scene, as the purpose for the union was coming to an end.
Rev Stu. You needn’t have worried. There are THOUSANDS here!
I hope today’s rally is a great success. There is little doubt that the Unionist establishment and their supine pet Jocks in the MSM will loudly trumpet it as a failure if the turnout is anything less that Catalan in scale, but that is only to be expected.
The problem for Unionists is that whatever the turnout, it signifies nothing with respect to the outcome of the 2014 vote. Whatever the similarities between Catalonia and Scotland, there are also many divergencies. Let us not forget that our Catalan friends have, in relatively recent times, been subjected to rule by a vile fascist dictatorship which banned their language, suppressed their culture, and was responsible for a huge number of deaths during and after the Spanish Civil War.
Scotland’s path towards independence has (mercifully) been much less traumatic than that of our Catalan cousins, and given the attitude of the Spanish state towards separatist movements, is much more likely to result in success in the short to medium term.
There is still everything to play for over the next 24 months. If the turnout is disappointing, then there is a target to do better; if the turnout is good it will be a real fillip for the YES campaign.
The only turnout that really matters however is on the day of the referendum, particularly the ability to get more younger and working class voters out, as they are likely to be the key to achieving a majority.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-19685144
http://local.stv.tv/edinburgh/191345-organisers-hope-for-big-turn-out-at-independence-rally-in-edinburgh/
Appropos comments above about not being allowed to post unhindered on Unionist Blogs. The Daily Telegraph and the Guardian for all their faults do not moderate Independence supporting comments unless they are of the vilest type on those sites on which they allow comments and they do allow comments on most Scottish items. The Scotsman does so as well although it is fairly stringent on swearing and the nastiest type of insulting comment.
‘Oh, DO shush, you baby. The briefest glance at your blog reveals a place more than happy to throw around abusive jibes (a particularly ugly and sustained assault on Christine Grahame’s personal appearance leaps out), so either put your own house in order or spare us the fake outrage. Such blatant hypocrisy borders on trolling.’
Heh. It’ll be interesting to see how long this post lasts before being censored, given that you’ve made it clear I’m not welcome around here (I think, for telling you a few home truths, albeit you’ve not had the courtesy to clarify precisely and specifically the offending comment(s) on my part, despite my queries). Let’s hope he gets to see it before deletion, albeit I understand the man does have a job to do and thereby does not, presumably, spend all of his time gazing at a computer screen on the internet.
Clearly however, the rank hypocrisy of your blatent double-standards as regards “trolling” and blatent abuse moves on apace. Leaving aside that you yourself have quite the worst record of being offensive and rude to people on the internet, spanning some 10 years or more, that I’ve personally ever witnessed, it is ludicrous to ban people for “trolling” because they don’t agree with your (in the main ridiculous) worldview, yet on the other effectively endorsing blatent abuse such as that routinely suffered by sm753 here – again and again – is laughable.
I continue to read this blog primarily because of his inputs; effortlessly exploding one ludicrous myth after another, to be met only with the aforestated abuse – because that’s all you lot *can* do in the face of well-reasoned arguments and facts. I admire his persistence and gumption in the face of such idiocy, though I know from long experience that he’s utterly wasting his breath.
Thank God most people who actually *live* in Scotland are not humourless, bitter, narrow-minded, mean-spirited, two dimensional thinking misanthropes, is all I can say.
“I’m not welcome around here (I think, for telling you a few home truths”
Not for that reason, no. It remains the case, and yet even you aren’t actually banned.
@ Captain Caveman
I’m certainly not an SNP member, although I do support Scottish independence. I think your criticism is misplaced, and although I don’t know all the backstory as I haven’t been reading or posting here until the past few months, I can certainly affirm that sm753 brings a lot of the abuse heaped on him upon himself. I’m not condoning abuse, name-calling etc, but sometimes you do need to develop more of a thick skin, particularly if you are being purposely obscurantist as it often seems he is.
The tactic is hardly novel, either here or elsewhere in cyberia, but sm753 rarely if ever actually engages in reasoned debate; trust me I’ve tried to do so with him on a number of occasions on different topics. His preferred modus operandi seems to be lobbing rhetorical grenades, totally lacking in any back up or evidence, then retreating to the wings in silence before popping up again on some other thread or topic claiming victory. Very odd.
To be fair, one only has to look at his own blog to see how peculiar his world view is. He is the very epitome of the kind of Unionist who loudly declaims the positive case for the Union, and the fact that it is unanswerable…. whilst being absolutely unable to tell you what the details of the case are, and what the evidence is. In that respect it is like arguing with a person of faith…. it isn’t going to go anywhere, because he isn’t making a rational case, and if challenged simply insists on the rightness of his faith based position.
RevStu, people came. Rather a lot of people came. According to the platform announcement, ten thousand people came.
I have lots of pics, including of the saltire that appeared in the sky as we all proceeded down the Mound.
Rolfe.
@Morag
If you also got a saltire balloon into that shot of the saltire in the Sky then I was stood next to you taking the same photo.
No, I didn’t get the balloon. I managed to get a saltire flag into a couple of shots with it though.
I wish I’d seen some of you. Well, I might have done and didn’t realise. I travelled up with the Dumfries bunch because their route went more or less past my house. In the Meadows I met the guy who was Convener of London Branch during my time down south, and we reminisced for a bit. When the march started I set off on my own, but soon spotted a banner from my own constituency and sure enough when I moved that way I encountered a bunch of local friends. Stayed with that banner more or less for the rest of the afternoon.
There has to be some way to recognise net-friends, really!
Whether it was 5,000 or 10,000 I wouldn’t know, but it was a pretty big crowd. If there had been significantly more, it would have been a safety risk for that venue.
“There has to be some way to recognise net-friends, really!”
Watch this space tomorrow 😉