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You’d need a heart of stone

Posted on January 27, 2014 by

…not to laugh. The Scottish Daily Mail, unperturbed by the waves of mockery, is still banging away furiously on the “cybernats!” drum today, with another front-page lead and another two-page spread inside.

The paper’s managed to rope gormless Labour MSP Kezia Dugdale into its one-sided witch-hunt, and she pens an article dramatically entitled “TWITTER AND A THREAT TO BAYONET ME” complaining of someone “recently” threatening her, although the offensive tweet in question turns out (not revealed in the piece) to be 15 months old.

sadkezia

The above picture is – really and truly – the story’s illustration.

The article itself, it probably goes without saying, is a pitiful bleat which refuses to acknowledge that any online abuse ever comes from the No side, and which takes the opportunity to sneak in a few unrelated party-political digs at the SNP. (It is of course always deeply delightful to see supposedly left-wing Labour MSPs collaborating with the Daily Mail for party advantage.)

“What does a Yes vote actually mean? The only thing that’s guaranteed is instability and uncertainty – oh, and politicians squabbling for power with voters sidelined once again.”

We’ve attached the piece below so you can judge for yourself. But we do agree with one aspect of it – we don’t like to see political debates using imagery of people being bayonetted. While the tweet directed at Dugdale in 2012 clearly wasn’t serious or phrased as a threat, it was an unwelcome and unwise contribution to the debate.

So we’re sure that Ms Dugdale, still doubtless suffering from trauma after her awful and unprecedented experience of being a politician someone said something unpleasant about on the internet, merely forgot to condemn some rather more recent use of the very same word by one of her Labour colleagues.

davidsonbayonet

We can’t help but notice, though, that when “cybernats” refer to bayonetting people it’s “vile abuse” which demands a police inquiry. When senior Scottish Labour MPs – in no less a personage than the chairman of the Scottish Affairs Committee, indeed – do it, it’s merely harmless, knockabout “robust rhetoric”.

When pondering the double standards of the British press, amusement is the only sane reaction. Anything else and you might go a bit mad and want to stab somebody.

.

———————————————————————————————————

TWITTER AND A THREAT TO BAYONET ME
Comment by Kezia Dugdale, Labour MSP for the Lothians

I HAD the opportunity to fulfil a personal ambition when I was invited on to Question Time last week, a programme which as a young person was an introduction to real political debate and one I still find tests my certainties and assumptions.

Of course, I was a bit worried that I would mess it up. But there was something I was more worried about.

I knew that taking part in a high-profile debate would have consequences – just like writing this article will have consequences.

Sure enough, the diatribe and insults that we have learned to brush off as part of the job have multiplied. Anyone who dares to venture a public opinion that the UK isn’t that bad and that independence might not be that great will know what I mean.

Recently, someone on Twitter decided to inform me that they would like to see what I looked like on the end of their bayonet. If someone had threatened me like that in the street, they’d have been arrested.

I was also asked this weekend how many “blackshirts” I owned – black shirts being the uniform of Mussolini’s murdering fascists.

I love Twitter. I think it’s great, a place to hear the news, different opinions and often some much-needed humour. But we must remember that the internet is a place, not a thing.

THAT was the loud and clear message I took from a conference on child safety I attended last week. It is a virtual playground, a new tool for bullies to do what they’ve always done. Intimidate, harass, spread fear and shout down.

While teachers and youth workers grapple with how to protect young people from online dangers while making the most of technological advances, the national debate about our country’s future faces the same challenges.

The internet is a good thing for democracy. Twitter gives everyone a voice – a place to explore ideas, debate, think what might be. A virtual town hall where you can put your views to those with power without raising your hand and waiting your turn.

When the country is set to take the most significant decision in 300 years, Twitter is the one place where the debate is catching people’s imaginations. It just turns out that those imaginations are running wild and making virtual bogeymen of anyone who dares decry the call for freedom.

There is a serious side to this. Just in the last few days, we have seen considerable light shed on the dark side of Twitter. On Friday, two people were jailed for tweets they’d sent to two leading women’s rights activists, Caroline Criado Perez and London MP Stella Creasy. These were extreme cases – where threats of rape simply could not be ignored.

But there are plenty of others who slip just below the criminality radar but whose actions can be oppressive and bullying. This paper exposed some of the most prolific characters behind online harassment and abuse of leading Better Together politicians and activists.

At least four of those mentioned were known to me. Individuals who’d repeatedly sent offensive, harassing or abusive tweets in my direction.

Some of the online debate we have seen has diminished political discourse to a cartoon level. You are either for me or against me, and if you are against me you must be a bad person.

The ideas of compromise or consensus building are becoming foreign to this debate, and so are the shades of grey in the middle where the truth often lies.

I hope the debate improves between now and September but I won’t hold my breath.

I just hope that come September 19, we can return to a political debate worthy of our nation’s great history. One willing to take on the big challenges we face without writing them off as ‘talking Scotland down’. A debate rooted in hard facts.

Dealing with truths that are uncomfortable instead of brushing them aside as fearmongering. There’s nothing for patriots to fear in big ideas and hard choices.

On Question Time, If ound myself on the opposite side of the referendum question from John Swinney and Jim Sillars. For me, the most significant moment was seeing Jim Sillars and John Swinney – both lifelong nationalists – openly disagreeing with one another. At last – some colour in ever black-and-white debate.

Jim wants rid of the Queen, the pound and the European Union. John wants the monarchy, the Bank of England and open borders.

What does a Yes vote actually mean? The only thing that’s guaranteed is instability and uncertainty – oh, and politicians squabbling for power with voters sidelined once again.

AT least these two men, well versed in the art of politics, were prepared to make their case face to face and be respectful of anyone who disagrees. Political bantering aside, I found both John and Jim fair and frank, and I hope they thought the same of me.

Sadly, I can’t say the same of many of their followers, the ones with computers and anonymity to hide behind. Nationalists say they love everything about Scotland – but it’s clear that for some there is an exception. It is their intolerance of fellow Scots who disagree with them.

But I know they are a noisy minority. I know my views are valid, that many people agree with me, and that others can be persuaded by my arguments. So I am going to keep making them because I believe this debate is too important not to hear every view.

If the intention is to silence the opposition, then maybe they are having some success. That is sad. But they won’t silence me.

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    177 to “You’d need a heart of stone”

    1. Alan Mackintosh says:

      And didnt Davidson tell Eilidh Whiteford she’d get a doing? That was face to face as i recall

    2. sneddon says:

      She’s crackers isn’t she? I havn’t read such a lot of self pitying twaddle since her last article.

    3. HandandShrimp says:

      Fifi is a profoundly dishonest wee troll that is all.

    4. Do the Daily Hate have a coach for that expression she is wearing? It’s exactly the same expression as the regular middle class bint giving it “This recession is so bad I’ve had to give up Chablis for plonk, and may have to take Tarquin and Samantha out of private school” features.

    5. Dinnatouch says:

      Just perusing my workmate’s copy at the moment. There’s a photo of a piece of text on page 4 with the caption Disgraceful: The threatening tweet. The text itself runs to around 400 characters at a rough guess. More accurate reporting from the Fail.

    6. Seasick Dave says:

      Note to self: The internet is a place, not a thing.

    7. Morag says:

      When she was active on the Scotsman boards she was the nastiest wee hate-peddler of the lot.

    8. Morag says:

      Oh but I forgot, David Torrance thought she was “charming”, so that’s OK then.

    9. HulloHulot says:

      “Some of the […] debate we have seen has diminished political discourse to a cartoon level.”

      Said the Labour MSP…

    10. Marcia says:

      The rising Yes vote will no doubt make that newspaper more shrill as the months go by.

    11. G. Campbell says:

      Alternative picture caption:

      Kezia Dugdale reacts to John Barrowman’s Better Together video.

    12. Desimond says:

      This is surely proof that

      “The enemy of my enemy is my friend” no longer applies!

      And come on Wings…surely Fifi has uttered some nonsense in her former typing from the bleachers days…hasnt anyone found any inappropriate patter from her in the internet of yesteryear?

    13. G. Campbell says:

      Does my bayonet proof vest look big in this?

    14. Doug Daniel says:

      Of course, I was a bit worried that I would mess it up. But there was something I was more worried about.

      I knew that taking part in a high-profile debate would have consequences – just like writing this article will have consequences.

      Sure enough, the diatribe and insults that we have learned to brush off as part of the job have multiplied. Anyone who dares to venture a public opinion that the UK i sn’t that bad and that independence might not be that great will know what I mean.

      Seriously? She “worries” about receiving some tweets?

      Here’s a thought, if you’re a politician and you don’t want to have people tweeting at you angrily, don’t speak utter pish on TV.

      That article is every bit as disingenuous as what she comes out with when she’s on TV. There’s nothing wrong with people disagreeing that independence would be better than the union, but if they do so in a manner that is misleading or denigrates those of us wanting independence, then I’m sorry, but you’re going to get a backlash.

    15. cath says:

      Here’s another piece by a young person who appeared on QT. He’s much younger than Kieza – still at school in fact – and was in the audience not on the panel proclaiming on a politician’s salary.

      Perhaps the Labour people involved might like to comment. Sums up all that’s wrong with labour and democracy in the UK. Perhaps the Mail might like to run it?

      thetarge.co.uk/article/current-affairs/0045/a-response-to-my-question-time-critics

    16. Gillie says:

      Has the Daily Mail replaced the New Statesman as Labour’s in house magazine?

      The Daily Mail the rag that likes to hate; be it East Europeans, Germans, French, Asians, Africans, Muslims, Gypsies, Irish ……………… Scots and in particular Scottish nationalists.

    17. david says:

      Kezia is a lia

    18. G. Campbell says:

      It’s a habit. Susan Calman usually shelters under my left arm.

    19. Harry Shanks says:

      I laughed at the claim that “a YES vote means instability and uncertainty”

      In the current Unionist paradise with its stagnant economy, 1.4 trillion pounds of debt, and 7% unemployment rate – I have no idea if I will have a job next year, let alone when (or IF) I will ever receive my state pension. Is it 66/67/68 or even 70 these days – and given the West of Scotland mortality figures, will I even reach any of those ages anyway?

      That’s not to even mention the assault on welfare and much, much more that is on the way courtesy of a Tory Govt voted in by England despite said Party being utterly rejected by my own country, What’s worse – they’re doing it deliberately as someone said – and there’s the overwhelming likelihood that the Tories will return to power in 2015 voted in with English votes, propped up by UKIP, to deal us more of the same!

      All of which the Daily Mail supports of course.

    20. Dinnatouch says:

      which as a young person was an introduction to real political debate

      Wait, what? Hasn’t an MSP in the Scottish parliament experienced political debate before?

    21. McHaggis says:

      A couple from Fifi’s – (and by the way it was Fifi who coined the ‘Cybernat’ term, Foulkes nabbed it as she was his assistant at the time)

      “Somehow I don’t imagine many SNP or BNP nutters will be travelling to China…”

      “Once upon a time, in a humble cottage in Linlithgow, the Greatest Living Scotsman was born. A strange golden light shone out of his nappy…”

    22. Ken500 says:

      Unelected Mad Fifi should go and get a job.

      Anything for publicity. What an irrelevance being used by right wing tax evaders.

      Paul & Fifi abuse public monies.

    23. Grendel says:

      Same old, same old. Ooh, the anonymity! The uncertainty!

      Two people were jailed in another country for offensive tweets in an unrelated incident, nothing to do with Scottish independence, while it’s inferred that those supporting independence are doing the same.

      Here’s a thought. Seeing as how this type of behaviour is against the law, shouldn’t we be advising the police EVERY time a Unionist makes an offensive tweet or facebook post?

      It’s time to turn the tables on these people, and prove just how bitter and twisted some of these people are.

    24. Linda's back says:

      Fifi kezer sore was a 24/7 poster while in employment by George Foulkes and like her boss the tribal hatred of the SNP and Alex Salmond knew no boundaries of honesty or decency.

    25. Gillie says:

      “Then the charming ‘Fifi la Bonbon’ (aka Kezia Dugdale) came to my defence. ‘Mr Torrance is a long established, serious and distinguished writer who has published books on Margaret Thatcher, Harold MacMillan [sic], and the Secretaries of State for Scotland, and this is just the latest of these. He doesn’t write hagiographies.’ Aw, shucks. She then offered a cybernat biography of Salmond: ‘Once upon a time, in a humble cottage in Linlithgow, the Greatest Living Scotsman was born. A strange golden light shone out of his nappy, bathing the faces of his proud parents with a warm glow…’ I fear I might have competition.” – David Torrance, Oct 2010

      http://davidtorrance.com/cybernats-a-scottish-political-phenomenon/

    26. Janine says:

      There are just no words for this. One look at her ‘oh woe is me’ coupon and I felt the bile rising in my gut.

    27. Grendel says:

      Seasick Dave said “Note to self: The internet is a place, not a thing.”

      Where the currency is paypal and apparently we’ll need a passport to go there after independence…

    28. Macart says:

      Oh I think we know who the real victims are in all this and politicians don’t strike me as the victim type.

    29. Jimbo says:

      I see Kezia Dugdale let them into her bedroom to photograph her in front of her flickering screen.

    30. Ken500 says:

      Murphy, ‘We will win be gaining the floating vote’. Another comedian. Nae chance, joker.

      These Labour/Unionists should have an arithmetic and reading test before they get near any public monies.

    31. Swello says:

      that picture must be a nomination for this blog: Angry People in Local Newspapers

    32. Training Day says:

      Eh..apropos ‘Blackshirts’ and Mussolini’s ‘murdering Fascists’, Fifi..

      Blackshirts were also the uniform of choice for Oswald Mosely’s British Union of Fascists. A charming bunch of japesters supported by.. er, the newspaper with which you are currently colluding, Ms Dugdale.

    33. Desimond says:

      This is shocking. When will we stop this disgraceful SNP backed “Money for nothing” society? This is proof we must finally take the brave step and better utilise wasteful monies like the Winter Fuel Allowance being paid to pensioners.

      In this day and age, no Labour MSP should have to type while wearing their winter coat…shame on you Scotland, shame on you!

    34. Illy says:

      Seasick Dave:

      The internet is both a place *and* a thing, and a (set of) language(s).

      And it’s all just Math.

      It’s one of those wonderful things you get out of information theory.

    35. Dave says:

      The Daily Mail is giving free publicity to sites like this so good luck to them. Please keep spreading the word.

      When their Scottish readership wake up to the fact that their house(s) will be worth a lot more when their country jumps from OECD #16 to OECD #7, all the cabernat nonsense will be forgotten.

    36. Gillie says:

      Kezia Dugdale (aka Fifi la Bonbon) was a former Labour researcher who previously worked for ex-MSP Lord George Foulkes (aka FuFu le Hobnob).

    37. Dal Riata says:

      (Scottish) Labour and the Daily Mail colluding in lies, misinformation, FUD, smears, sneers and fears to corruptly influence the referendum vote in September… Well, well, well, who would have thunk it, eh!

      Selling their soul to the devil to keep the Scottish people tied down and repressed.

      So this is what has become of a once proud party, Labour. For shame. And again, for shame.

      I will never trust any utterances from that party ever again, even if it should exist in its present form in an independent Scotland, though unlikely.

    38. Cath says:

      “Seeing as how this type of behaviour is against the law, shouldn’t we be advising the police EVERY time a Unionist makes an offensive tweet or facebook post?”

      Yes. Thing is there is some reality behind all this “crackdown” stuff. There are harsher rules in Scotland now than there were, which is why people have been prosecuted in the Clutha case and the one with the 3 year old boy dying.

      So yes. Why should we ignore and block really nasty trolling and abuse when we’re having this kind of state, media, political campaign against us?

      “Chief Superintendent Mark Williams, Police Scotland’s Edinburgh Divisional Commander, said: “Any reports of racist, offensive or abusive comments made online will be thoroughly investigated and those responsible will be brought to justice. If you commit an offence, we will investigate it and you will be prosecuted.”

      http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/warnings-over-online-abuse-as-mikaeel-mother-is-due-in-court.23214967

    39. Jim Watson says:

      “When the country is set to take the most significant decision in 300 years, Twitter is the one place where the debate is catching people’s imaginations. It just turns out that those imaginations are running wild and making virtual bogeymen of anyone who dares decry the call for freedom.”

      So Ms Dugdale accepts that Independence is a movement for freedom. Why is she still opposed to it then? Is it a unionist addiction that makes them all pavlovianly just say no? I was going to tweet that point but I would hate to be accused of anything…

    40. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Kezia Dugdale (aka Fifi la Bonbon)”

      I’ve asked this before, but can people PLEASE stop repeating that without some sort of evidence for it? I’m just going to delete it from now on, and I hate having to delete things.

    41. Seasick Dave says:

      On seeing the picture of Kezia I was immediately reminded of
      Roald Dahl’s tale of George’s (Foulkes) Marvellous Medicine…

      George’s Grandma is a grizzly, grumpy, selfish old woman with pale brown teeth and a small puckered up mouth like a dog’s bottom. Four times a day she takes a large spoonful of medicine, but it doesn’t seem to do her any good. She’s always just as poisonous after she’s taken it as she was before.

    42. Flower of Scotland says:

      I think Kezia has something missing in her life . She’s awfully angry poor wee scone ! She has to be pitied !

    43. Desimond says:

      Ahem….Kezia seems to have mixed Alastair Darling and an adorable robot mixed up here!

      http://www.keziadugdale.com/2007/04/10/johnny-5-is-alive-and-posting-on-the-bbc-forum/

      ‘It’s also hilarious to see people posting comments at 4.04pm when the manifesto was only available online from 4pm! Johnny 5 could read 100 pages in 30 secs but I doubt ConcernedfaeFalkirk can’

    44. How Labour have sold out, My old Labour voting Granda in 1980 ranted and raved, slammed his newspaper onto the floor and stomped on it a few times, turns out it was Mollie Weir coming out in support of the Tories that caused his fit of anger.

      How would he react today at the Labour party selling out to the Tories the way they have? Sarwar last week trying to say Labour are still the same party is total BS.

      I have no doubt if he was alive today he would ditch Labour and move to LFI, The only place for people with real Labour values to be.

    45. HandandShrimp says:

      Stu as a matter of interest is all this free publicity increasing traffic or is the Mail a dead zone?

      I’m not entirely convinced the average Mail reader gets past the daily pictures of celebrities butts and the homily to Farage.

    46. SquareHaggis says:

      Och! sticks and steanes.

    47. Kev says:

      O/T but mind wee Ruthie boasting on QT last Thurs on how the Tories had created nearky a million new private sector jobs, well guess where 80% of those went?

      http://archive.is/BF9cc

    48. Luigi says:

      Awww, poor wee lassie! I am so moved that I have now decided to start buying the Daily Mail regularly, and vote NO in September.

    49. Paul says:

      If you want to be in politics woman you have to have a thicker skin. As much as I despised Thatcher she never moaned about the abuse she used to get she just got on with destroying the country. I can understand wee kids getting scared but a grown woman have a word with yourself and the fake face you have put on it’s ridiculous. Some of the actions from the unionists posters and the thing they have called Alex and the yes campaign have been down right nasty and do you see or hear them greeting to the Right wing press. Just get on with the job you were elected to do.I bet if the people of the Lothians Knew you were such good bed fellows with the right wing press and the Tories they wouldn’t have voted you in.

    50. StevenM says:

      Do these people have no concept of irony?

      “Some of the online debate we have seen has diminished political discourse to a cartoon level. You are either for me or against me, and if you are against me you must be a bad person.”

      She says in an article in the Daily Mail, vilifying those who are against her. Make no mistake, these articles are just attempts at intimidation of Yes activists, nothing more. The hilarious part is that they are happening because they know they are losing and we are winning.

    51. Dal Riata says:

      Kezia Dugdale? The *alleged* Labour troll Fifi La Bonbon?

      Quite possibly. It has been alleged many times that they are one and the same, though no ultimate proof has been received.

      So we have an *alleged* Labour troll whimpering in the far-right Daily Mail about what *she* says are pro-Scottish independence trolls, *allegedly*?

      That’s right.

      Gosh! Oh, and ROFLMAO!

    52. Arbroath 1320 says:

      Of course, I was a bit worried that I would mess it up. But there was something I was more worried about. <

      No need to worry girl, I can confirm without a shadow of doubt, that you did indeed screw it up on Question Time BIG time. Rest assured though, all fully paid up members of the Cybernat Army were not let down by this failing. In fact we very much enjoyed it, particularly your very own little cat fight segment that you participated in along side your compatriot Ruth Davidson. 🙂

      I have a query.

      If a tweet that is 13 month's old is described by Kezia Dugdale as being recent does this mean that in 13 month's time she will finally waken up and move over to join those fighting for Scottish independence?

      Oh wait a minute in 13 month's time we'll have already won the referendum and be on the verge of officially becoming the latest independent country in the world 🙂

    53. Jimbo says:

      @ Desimond

      Will the SCOTTISH Labour party get a .scot website?

      Afraid not. That particular URL has been pre- ordered.

    54. HandandShrimp says:
      Stu as a matter of interest is all this free publicity increasing traffic or is the Mail a dead zone?

      I’m not entirely convinced the average Mail reader gets past the daily pictures of celebrities butts and the homily to Farage.

      You may be right, H&S. My dad gets the Daily Hate every day and hadn’t noticed his own son vilified for the ‘Proud Cybernat’ badges last week.

      That said, my blog stats haven’t been this mental since I blogged about the Ibrox (Not the) Armed Forces Day debacle.

    55. DougtheDug says:

      Kezia said, “Sure enough, the diatribe and insults that we have learned to brush off as part of the job have multiplied.”

      But I’ve searched @kdugdalemsp on twitter all the way back to the Question Time program she mentions and there plenty of people who disagree with her but I can’t find any abuse.

      Does she have another twitter account which is the one where she receives the insults she mentions?

    56. Ken Mac says:

      I have to admit to never having read any of David Torrance’s books but I have read all his articles in The Herald. Is it just me or is this man not an intellectual lightweight with little grasp of the matters he writes about.

    57. joe kane says:

      The Daily Mail mounts a vicious attack on the memory and reputation of Ed Miliband’s war hero dad, and we all sympathised with Ed and gave him our wholehearted support.

      The Daily Mail mounts exactly the same campaign of vilification and smears against ordinary members of the public and the Labour Party jump on the same Mosley bandwagon and join in.

      It’s not one of the Labour Party’s finest moments in Scotland.

    58. Bubbles says:

      To Kezia

      I’m sorry pet. I must have missed my invitation to sit on the QT panel with the grown-ups.

      P.S. Don’t tell you mate Big Jim but I did manage to make it into the audience. Shh, mum’s the word.

    59. Murray McCallum says:

      This is depressingly predictable. We all deplore violence.

      Anyone who falls for this angle of narrative (basically trying to diminish social media) is probably still writing notes on pieces of slate.

      I think this will backfire big time in Scotland. The majority of folks know exactly what is going on here.

    60. Shiehallion! Shiehallion! says:

      AT least these two men, well versed in the art of politics, were prepared to make their case face to face and be respectful of anyone who disagrees.

      One on the nose for David Cameron!

    61. Papadocx says:

      Is this one of SLABS rising stars

    62. G. Campbell says:

      scottishlabour.london for certain.

    63. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Stu as a matter of interest is all this free publicity increasing traffic or is the Mail a dead zone?”

      I think Saturday was our biggest Saturday ever. It’s usually the quietest day of the week, but we had over 80,000 views.

    64. Conan_the_Librarian says:

      One more thing, then I’ll haud ma wheesht about Kezia.

      When you debate with a person for years online, you get to know their idioms, turns of phrase and their taste in online Christmas cards.

      She who shall not be named deleted her accounts, May 2011.

      Pure coincidence of course.

    65. Juteman says:

      Have Slab finally given up on the working class vote, and have started a recruitment drive to attract Scottish Tories?

    66. Arbroath 1320 says:

      DougtheDug

      But I’ve searched @kdugdalemsp on twitter all the way back to the Question Time program she mentions and there plenty of people who disagree with her but I can’t find any abuse.

      I think you’re not quite understanding the meaning of the word ‘abuse’ here Doug. The definition of ‘abuse’ as taken from the dictionary according to Better Together states, and I quote:

      “abuse is something that happens when an individual or group of individuals holds a different point of view from a person or persons.

      e.g someone calls a kettle black another calls it white. This is an extreme form of abuse and should be reported at the earliest opportunity.” 🙂

    67. Robert Louis says:

      Poor wee Kezia! Some rotter wrote something mildly distasteful (but really pretty tame for the internet) in a tweet 15 months ago. Truly appalling. I bet Labour’s Iain ‘Bayonetting’ Davidson is furious at being upstaged.

      Many online have suggested, although it has never been confirmed, that prior to being elected as a ‘list MSP’, Kezia posted almost continuously over many years on the laughingly titled ‘Scotsman’ message boards as the infamous fifi le bonbon. Fifi le bon bon disappeared from the message boards in the run up to the 2011 Scottish parliamentary election.

      However, that is really of little consequence, since what is important here, is the cosying up of the Labour party in Scotland to the Daily Mail, an uber right wing publication. Not content with working hand in hand with David Cameron’s Tory anti Scottish independence campaign, we now have Labour in an effective ‘love-in’ with a Labour hating, right wing rag.

      As somebody who is a bit left leaning, and who in the past voted Labour, I cannot easily accept the depths to which the Labour party have descended. Why any socialist or left thinking person would want to vote for the current Labour party, is truly beyond me. They have betrayed almost ever single principle upon which they were founded – the most important of which was Scottish self rule.

      Labour are now effectively ‘suppin with the devil’, such is their desperation, and yet despite all this and the entire mainstream media on their side, the NO vote just keeps on slipping. In reality, project Fear is now feart, and are indulging in petty nonsense in the Dail Mail, whilst hysterically running around the media with the same old untrue scare stories, over and over again.

      Truth is, Labour backed the wrong horse in this race.

      Maybe this week, instead of unionist bleating, we might finally get to hear the positive case for the union. I’ll not hold my breath.

    68. Mealer says:

      Kezia Dugdale has been given a platform by a right wing unionist Newspaper to express a very one sided view of what’s happening on the internet.The media is the NO campaign and we shouldn’t be surprised at her for using it to best advantage.Lets face it,with grass roots Labour activists shifting steadily to YES it’s all they can do.Kezia is correct when she says that post referendum we will need to have debate on Scotland’s future.Whether Scotland votes YES or NO,Kezia will have a right to participate in that debate,the same as everyone else living here.But she has made it quite clear she doesn’t believe in an independent Scotland.She has made it quite clear she thinks the big decisions are better to be made in London.In the event of a YES vote,how much of a role can she expect to have in taking forward an independent Scotland? Something she doesn’t believe in and which her heart won’t really be in. That will be for the voters to decide,but if she doesn’t have confidence in an independent Scotland,she can hardly expect people to have confidence in her to help govern it.

    69. Gillie says:

      The pressure is now on Fifi to produce evidence that she was subject to abuse after appearing on QT.

      Otherwise she will be nominated for this year’s Susan Calman “Shitstorm” award, given to the person who makes false claims of online abuse to gain self-serving publicity.

    70. Robert Louis says:

      Kev @1025am.

      Yes the story you highlight shows just how current UK economic strategy is working to benefit London and the south East, above all others. The fact that 80% of new private sector jobs were in London shocked me.

    71. Taranaich says:

      Regardless of whether Ms Dugdale & the mysterious Madame La Bonbon are one and the same, I’m pretty sure the former’s made enough comments which wouldn’t exactly be considered fruitful to the Independence debate.

      Anyone who dares to venture a public opinion that the UK isn’t that bad and that independence might not be that great will know what I mean.

      I love how the best she can muster is “the UK isn’t that bad.” Evidently saying the UK was “great” or “wonderful” was just a wee bit strong.

      I simply cannot fathom how politicians expect us to believe that they can call their opposite numbers anything and everything under the sun & apparently deal with “robust debate” from them, but criticism from members of the public is just too much to bear. I mean jings, some of the things Smart & Davidson have come up with are borderline abusive as it is.

      So how come it’s ok for politicians to let fly with the insults against one another, but not for the public? That might fly in Westminster, but we’re in Scotland: the people are sovereign here. Come September, we’ll make that official.

    72. joe kane says:

      Kezia Dugdale seems to forget that ordinary members of the public, such as the six people recently featured in the Daily Mail whose only crime is that they support Scottish independence, have been drive to suicide by such Daily Mail tabloid harassment and bullying.

      I’m sure none of the victims of the Daily Mail’s current hate campaign will do anything daft to themselves. They know the Daily Mail and the likes of Dugdale aren’t worth it.

      ps
      The last suicide victim of a Daily Mail campaign of vicious bullying and harassment, some of which took place on Dugdale’s beloved internet –
      Lucy Meadows, and the tabloids that harassed her
      21 Mar 2013
      http://liberalconspiracy.org/2013/03/21/lucy-meadows-and-the-tabloids-that-harassed-her/

    73. Doug Daniel says:

      DougtheDug –

      But I’ve searched @kdugdalemsp on twitter all the way back to the Question Time program she mentions and there plenty of people who disagree with her but I can’t find any abuse.

      Don’t you know? Disagreeing with someone is now classed as “abuse”.

      Which, curiously enough, means anyone voting No in the referendum is being abusive. Better vote Yes then!

    74. Robert Louis says:

      (Re, I just spotted your message re fifi. This is a re-post sans said content, so you can delete the other.)

      Poor wee Kezia! Some rotter wrote something mildly distasteful (but really pretty tame for the internet) in a tweet 15 months ago. Truly appalling. I bet Labour’s Iain ‘Bayonetting’ Davidson is furious at being upstaged.

      However, that is really of little consequence, since what is important here, is the cosying up of the Labour party in Scotland to the Daily Mail, an uber right wing publication. Not content with working hand in hand with David Cameron’s Tory anti Scottish independence campaign, we now have Labour in an effective ‘love-in’ with a Labour hating, right wing rag.

      As somebody who is a bit left leaning, and who in the past voted Labour, I cannot easily accept the depths to which the Labour party have descended. Why any socialist or left thinking person would want to vote for the current Labour party, is truly beyond me. They have betrayed almost ever single principle upon which they were founded – the most important of which was Scottish self rule.

      Labour are now effectively ‘suppin with the devil’, such is their desperation, and yet despite all this and the entire mainstream media on their side, the NO vote just keeps on slipping. In reality, project Fear is now feart, and are indulging in petty nonsense in the Dail Mail, whilst hysterically running around the media with the same old untrue scare stories, over and over again.

      Truth is, Labour backed the wrong horse in this race.

      Maybe this week, instead of unionist bleating, we might finally get to hear the positive case for the union. I’ll not hold my breath.

    75. HandandShrimp says:

      The Mail comment thing didn’t come to much did it? 24 allowed comments most critical of the article and by and large the criticism being met with approval by the readers.

    76. Cath says:

      The Daily Mail mounts a vicious attack on the memory and reputation of Ed Miliband’s war hero dad, and we all sympathised with Ed and gave him our wholehearted support.

      Yup. And after September, regardless of the referendum result, the Mail will again be ripping Labour to shreds. And frankly I don’t care how low the propaganda is, they won’t be getting an ounce of sympathy from me this time around.

    77. Dick Gaughan says:

      Merely another piece of self-promotion by a complete nonentity hoping to get the London Labour hierarchy to move from “Who?” to “Ah, I remember her – that’s that lass from somewhere in the hinterlands who did a piece in the Daily Mail. Not very bright, opportunist and very ambitious, promising as lobby fodder, keep her in mind for a safe seat in Hampshire.”

    78. Conan_the_Librarian says:

      @HandandShrimp

      Another evil, concerted attack by those pesky Cybernats.

    79. crisiscult says:

      I don’t know about everyone else but I’m starting to feel like some kind of revolutionary. Supporting Scottish independence didn’t strike me as very rebellious or radical but with the increasingly orchestrated and unified efforts by those in authority, from Government to the Media, and just generally ‘the system’, I’m wondering if this is getting across to the 16-24 group and making them rebel.

    80. velofello says:

      @ Ken Mac: intellectuals wear heavy-rimmed spectacles.Didn’t you know?

      Mr Murphy, now wee whimpering Ms Dugdale seeking publicity via the ultra Tory Daily Mail really does finalise the circling of their wagons.

      Scottish Labour campaigning in collaboration with Scottish Tories for a No to independence vote are funded by English Tories and afforded publicity by the Tory press. That is the astonishing reality.

    81. Arbroath 1320 says:

      Looks like the hatred of the Daily Mail by Labour lasted a long time then. Here’s Kezai Dugdale writing in the Daily Mail today yet only this happened three month’s ago.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-GMTxycAXY

      How times change, or in Labour’s minds disappear completely!

    82. Robert Louis says:

      I think the only outcome from this current anti independence campaign in the Daily Mail, will be to boost the number of Scots reading Wings over Scotland. Maybe that thought hasn’t occurred to Labour yet.

    83. Edmund says:

      This smear campaign against ‘cybernats’ is blantant propaganda. The tone of the articles is disgusting. The ‘name and shame’ framing is deliberately evocative of the News of the World’s anti-paedophile articles. They’re deliberately trying to present being a Yes voter with a twitter account as something subversive and abnormal.

      I only hope the people ‘named and shamed’ in the earlier article and targeted for establishment bullying have thicker skins than Kezia Dugdale.

      Someone is saying something on the internet! How dare they!

      As a wider point, I find the creeping criminalisation of internet speech extremely disturbing. It was ridiculous when they convicted the guy joking about bombing the airport. Now apparently we all have to be protected from ‘trolls’, to the tune of five years in prison. And the Daily Mail and the Labour party are poised to widen the net to silence citizen journalism and political dissent.

      Free speech should be sacred. Yes, even if that means jokes about dead babies or vitriol aimed at feminist campaigners. You can disagree with a statement while still defending the right to say it. Sticks and stones – on the internet, there is the ‘block’ button.

      I hope that an independent Scotland enshrines the right to free speech in its consitution, and disbands the thought police.

    84. pa_broon74 says:

      I said on twitter just after the QT debate (and I may have said elsewhere independently) that I didn’t like Kezia Dugdale – no idea if that could be construed as abuse.

      Conflating the two ‘trolls’ who made actual threats to the women arguing for historical female figures on bank notes with people who are only disagreeing or correcting something you’ve said is a very cynical move to try and make and one I think a lot of folk will see through.

      What annoys me about Kezia though is that she thinks she’s qualified to sit on a QT panel and lecture people. I work with young folk and totally encourage the sharing of opinions, however far fetched they might be. But to be lectured by someone with so little actual experience?

      I don’t think so.

      On the other hand, in this issue with the DM, I think there is an element of them taking advantage of her. However, I have no sympathy.

    85. Andrew Morton says:

      Presumably Kezia will not be standing for election to an independent Scottish parliament as it is plainly against her principles. However, if she has other principles, doubtless in a few years time we’ll be reading her manifesto in which she will claim that she fought tirelessly for Scottish self determination.

    86. HandandShrimp says:

      Yet the Mail will scream blue murder about censorship if you so much as say Leveson.

      Hypocrites of the first water.

    87. Robert Louis says:

      Edmund,

      I wholly agree. All abuse online is a bad thing, but like you I can also see a creeping totalitarian approach, whereby legitimate dissent and free speech will become the victim.

      As you rightly point out, nobody is forced to be on twitter, facebook and so on, and truly abusive people on twitter can be blocked.

    88. Paul says:

      I hate British values like bombing innocent Iraqi civilians, The House of Lords, the Monarchy,Paying billions for weapons of mass destruction While huge numbers have to go to food banks and The British Banking system.The list could go on and on can I expect a visit from the Daily Mail.

    89. Annibale says:

      Cybernat? Not me – I prefer the term used by Mike Small in the “Bella Caledonia” article “Tina Lives” – I’m a proud Digital Republican!

    90. msean says:

      Glad to hear wings over scotland is doing so well.I came upon it my self a few months back around the time of the Edinburgh gathering.Seems that i am not the only one.

    91. Ken500 says:

      What % of the ‘private’ sector jobs will be funded with public monies, as the ConDems privatise Public services.

    92. David McCann says:

      Hang on a minute.

      The only person to have been sent to gaol for on-line harassment, was a UNIONIST! David Limond was sent away for six months for subjecting a female journalist to a lenghty period of on-line abuse.

      His podcast gave the journalist’s social media details and encouraged them to abuse and harass her on Twitter, prompting a stream of abusive tweets. “Hit her with everything you’ve got,” Mr Limond said on the programme. “She’s got to get bang bang bang.”

      As far as I am aware, this was only reported by ONE so called national newspaper. It was not the Mail.

    93. HandandShrimp says:

      It would be somewhat delicious irony if all the Mail has succeeded in doing is adding to the readership of WoS and Bella and the all the rest.

    94. Ken500 says:

      When are the Leveson recommendations going to be enforced in Scotland?

      When is the Chilcott verdict being made public?

    95. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Rev if you please,”

      What am I looking at?

    96. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Opened my Herald with an expectation of an interested coverage of the poll announced at the weekend to find out that they seem to have more or less missed it.

      Instead we have an article from David Torrance which is so densely stupid in its basic premise that it merely confirmed a suspicion I was beginning to entertain that Torrance suffers from a juvenile inability to understand politics and has nothing sensible to say on it.

    97. Mary Bruce says:

      @Robert Louis – yes, I agree, the big story here is the SLab / Daily Mail collaboration. It is a very positive development for the yes campaign.

      Slab have got it so wrong and their support is crumbling. Undecided labour voters want to see a positive devo option put on the table, not their representatives making fannies of themselves in far-right rags.

      As for Kezia, yes, I get the feeling too, from this article, that she is very ambitious for fame and celebrity.

    98. gavin lessells says:

      The demand for Aye Right leaflets leading the unsuspecting public to the land of the Cybernats has gone up!

    99. HandandShrimp says:

      What am I looking at?

      I couldn’t open that reshuffle thing not having a google mail account (I possibly do but I am damned if I can remember what it is called)

    100. Robert Roddick says:

      There’s something deeply distasteful about people involved
      in an official capacity with the Labour Party aligning themselves with the disgusting, extreme right wing rag that is that newspaper (?). I can’t bring myself to type the name.

    101. Greannach says:

      She was great on QT – barely a cliche left untouched. I don’t understand why people are surprised at the likes of her or Sincerity Jim running to the right-wing Daily Mail – what on earth is left-wing about Labour these past few decades?

    102. Iain Ross says:

      It is a tactic to attempt to discredit the web a place where normal folk can access an alternative viewpoint (i.e. Not the Unionist line available in the mainstream). Just another cynical attack on free speech, it wouldn’t be so bad if they acknowledged that the issue appears on both sides to some degree but that just confirms my point.

    103. patronsaintofcats says:

      @Conan – account deleted, yes that is a mystery. And after that FIfi was never heard from again, strange that. I was perusing the Scotsman boards pre 2011; of course all evidence is now gone, but it is a charge she hasn’t denied. David Torrence seems to believe it. I remember being shocked rigid when I heard she was elected, remembering all those nasty witterings from the Scotsman boards. Whoever it was really really hates Alex Salmond and the SNP. I wonder whatever became of her (the troll). Surely the Scotsman wouldn’t erase somebody’s entire comment history, would they?

    104. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Re “what am i looking at” Couldnt get it to open either, but to hazard a guess… does the link lead to a post from fifi given that the date of the post is 2009? Or somewhere there is a post by fifi that discusses the reshuffle. Interested Wossers wish to know…

      Would you care to enlighten us Vincent?

    105. Breastplate says:

      I’m sure her labour colleagues won’t be happy with her and whoever sanctioned her talking to that rag. Strategically foolish and does seem very desperate.

      She brings to mind a particular Kenny Everett character though.

    106. Wayne says:

      Not the most flattering picture, all those nasty cybernats have clearly aged her about 10 years at least!

    107. Conan_the_Librarian says:

      @patronsaintofcats

      If you deleted your account, your comments history went with it.
      When AM2, The Spook in Leith and Ayrshire Scot deleted their accounts there were more than a few threads with me just talking to myself!

      Perhaps someone, somewhere has these digitally stored for future blackmail most foul…

    108. Kenny Campbell says:

      Maybe a straightforward question to Ms Dugdale on Twitter if she was Fifi…

    109. Conan_the_Librarian says:

      @Kenny Campbell

      Asking a politician for a straight answer is always fun…

    110. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “does the link lead to a post from fifi given that the date of the post is 2009”

      It links to a Kezia Dugdale blog site that’s invitation-only.

    111. ronnie anderson says:

      Pay attention KEZIA, J Swinney / J Siller,s ( both life long Nat,s ) read Jim,s wee Blue book. He came tae the party late in life, he WIZ A LABOUR MP, he did,nt leave the Labour Party / The Labour Party left HIM. GOAT IT

    112. Defo says:

      This is only feeding her out of control ego.
      BTW FiFi did a lazarus, and now posts at the hootsmon as Rear Admiral Sturgeon. She was happily defending Barrowmans fatist abuse on Saturday evening, when any normal girl her age would be up the town trying to locate a good rodgering.

      She was supposed to be showing my oldest girls P7 class round the parly a while back, but stood them up at the last minute, left standing in the lobby, as she was “too busy”.
      Their teacher spotted her later on the stairs, giggling with a couple of acolytes.

      Lovely girl kezia, and an inspiration to all young girls in how to get ahead. Suck up to a rancid old lord, and bobs your auntie, your representing the plebs.

    113. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Rev, yes i got that far, it was the self congratultory note to self that she had predicted the reshuffle from a year before. I wondered whether that had been done under a certain nom de plume. No matter, the coincidence of one disappearing in 2011 whlist another stepped forward is perhaps all that is required. It is of no great import after all.

    114. westie7 says:

      Now that photie just screams to me..

      “Stuck in this wee shop, day after day, wi ma individual trifle”

    115. Fergie 35 says:

      Susan Calman all over again, she seems to be doing well at the BBC these days!
      This is the way the Brit establishment works, ridicule and bullying.

    116. Alan says:

      “Jim wants rid of the Queen, the pound and the European Union. John wants the monarchy, the Bank of England and open borders. What does a Yes vote actually mean?”

      It means the people of Scotland get to choose Kezia. Dont be afraid of differing opinions just be glad that in 2016 we finally get to choose!

    117. ronnie anderson says:

      When you clok oot at work go Hame.

      When ah wiz wee , n time,s were hard,ah wiz pushed up

      chimmney,s,at the end of the day,an I gie hame,I dinna

      Twitter aboot chimmney,s,

      Ah,ve noo grawed up,i,ve grew to big an canna git push up

      chimmney,s,

      Am noo unergrunn,howkin coal,tae fire they feking

      chimmney,s.

      And the message KEZIA is, Why should YOU be engageing with

      member,s of the public,on what is a Social media site

      emphasis on the word SOCIAL.

      Whit,s wrang no gitting Your Message OOT, naebody want,s

      tae hear the steady stream of Pishin.

    118. Jim says:

      I’m glad Kezia fulfilled her “personal” ambition to appear on QT. Says it all really.

    119. patronsaintofcats says:

      Their teacher spotted her later on the stairs, giggling with a couple of acolytes.

      Comrades, surely? *winky thingie*

    120. patronsaintofcats says:

      Ok, I suck at HTML, that is all.

    121. Defo says:

      @patronsaintofcats
      Comrades implies equality, and I don’t think that’s in the NewLabour manifesto, or mindset.
      Whatevs,my guess is her downfall will be swift, and self inflicted. Not the brightest obvs, greeting to the Mail !

    122. ronnie anderson says:

      And that folk,s is such the Devistation that Lord John

      Foulkes, left behind , when he left Holyrood,fur the

      Ermine n Green benches.

      Kezia Dugdale,

      ah dont think Lord Foulk,s liked the Scottish people,

      A plauge on you,s all sort of goodbye gift.

    123. Grendel says:

      Edmund said:
      “Free speech should be sacred. Yes, even if that means jokes about dead babies or vitriol aimed at feminist campaigners. You can disagree with a statement while still defending the right to say it. Sticks and stones – on the internet, there is the ‘block’ button.

      I hope that an independent Scotland enshrines the right to free speech in its consitution, and disbands the thought police.”
      Where’s the block button? There isn’t one. So, as long as people are going to be prosecuted for posting genuinely offensive and distasteful comments online, let’s make sure it’s the Unionists in the dock, shall we?

      Westie7, brilliant comment about the trifle sketch. However, on reading the Daily Racist (Mail) Karen Dunbar’s other sketch comes to mind. “I smell shite…”.

    124. kenny says:

      I love the blackshirt comment – it took me back to when I used to work for UNISON Scotland and during the first couple of weeks I was introduced to the senior management team. In a nice friendly chat with Mr Jim Devine (whatever happened to him) one of his first questions was what was I doing as a blackshirt – he had suddenly become aware of my SNP leanings! THis was not uncommon for him to say that and he was notorious in the office for a variety of ill spoken comments and actions – no wonder UNISON put so much time, efffort and money to get him out when they had a chance.

    125. Craig Munro says:

      “Gormless”? Ye’ve really done it noo …..

    126. Hetty says:

      There is something deeply disturbing too about the demonising and hounding of anyone who dares to speak out against this rabble of a tabloid and their masters, and Labour have totally sold their souls to the devil, and been assimilated into the tory party. Thank goodness for this site and others who counter that madness.

    127. Iain says:

      Contrary to what Ms Dugdale writes, Jim Sillars is not a life-long nationalist. He was the co-author of a book published by the Ayr Labour party in 1968: ‘Don’t Butcher Scotland’s Future: The Case Against the SNP’.

      Fair enough, a few years later Jim saw that the British Labour Party could offer no progress. But before then he was as much of an unquestioning Labour loyalist as Dugdale is now.

    128. Edmund says:

      Where’s the block button? There isn’t one. So, as long as people are going to be prosecuted for posting genuinely offensive and distasteful comments online, let’s make sure it’s the Unionists in the dock, shall we?

      Seems quite simple to me:

      https://support.twitter.com/articles/117063-blocking-users-on-twitter

      And on moderated forums offensive posts are deleted and trolls banned. This idea that dialling 999 is a resonable response to an online message is a very recent one.

      If people can be prosecuted for something they say we no longer live in a free society. Tweeters arrested and dragged through the justice system is the stuff of a police state. What next? Banning political parties? These ‘trolls’ may as well be political prisoners – victimised for holding an opinion.

      Who decides what is ‘offensive and distasteful’? Because at the moment it looks like it’s the tabloid press, the government, and the police, all of whom have an agenda. I don’t want to live in a country where I have to double-check what I say and what I type in case I fall foul of the censors.

      I don’t care who is saying what. Didn’t we learn how to deal with bullies in school? Ignore them and they’ll get bored. Change hearts and minds with reasoned argument and a positive example.

      Censorship is a great evil.

    129. Will Podmore says:

      Well, it’s good to read that so many people are against abuse in debates. At the Clydebank Trades Council meeting on 3 October, Anas Sarwar and a fellow speaker against separatism (Richard Leonard from ‘Red Paper on Scotland’), were shouted down by non-stop screeching from extreme nationalists and ‘Scottish Socialist Party’ members.

      Anas was told to go back and fight for Pakistan independence – he had to explain he was born here. One English female member of the audience who said she supported a no vote told to “shut up and go home you b****”. Anyone who disagreed with their position wasn’t given the chance to make their point. Is this the kind of tolerant progressive Scotland the yes campaign wants to promote?

    130. Patrick Roden says:

      Has Kesia ever denied that she was ‘Fifi laBobbon’ that disgusting troll who wrote on the Scotsman comments page?

      If one of you twitterers could ask her, it might be interesting to see if she replies.

      If anyone comments on that rags page, it may be worth asking if they are aware she was herself a repeat abuser and troll on the Scotsman comments page.

    131. joe kane says:

      Somebody on twitter has pointed out Dugdale has had her article published in the Hitler-supporting Daily Mail on Holocaust Remembrance Day of all days.

      International Holocaust Remembrance Day
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Holocaust_Remembrance_Day

    132. desimond says:

      @Will Podmore

      Or folks, looks like we have a visitor? Fix the cushions.

      I think Anas’ performance at the Clydebank gig was very well covered and there’s no doubting where the root cause for that reception lay.

      Just to be clear, this is the same Anas Sarwar who was away lecturing in Pakistan on “Entrepreneurship” when the Bedroom Tax vote was taking place, yes?

    133. patronsaintofcats says:

      @Will Podmore, I believe that was largely disgruntled Labour folk who have grown weary of being lectured by the millionaire MP Sarwar and his ilk. STUC meetings are you know, Labour (by and large, with exceptions I’m sure). On display again on recent Question Time and elsewhere. Hardly hardcore nationalists. If I were them I’d be angry too, their party has let them down badly.

    134. Grendel says:

      Edmund, there is no Block button for the internet in general.
      There may be one for twitter (I don’t use it) but try getting offensive comment removed from forums such as the Daily Mail or Youtube. You are reliant on third party (in)action.

      Report offensive Unionists to the Police and let the courts decide.

    135. John Ogilvie says:

      Ha ha Keiza FudDale …. on no I must be a nasty CyberNat … in fact I am a Labour Party member who just happens to think one of our own talks mince …

    136. Grendel says:

      Will Podmore:
      No, they sound like a pretty distasteful bunch. I could point you in the direction of a few Unionist nutters if you would like to comment.
      Do you work for the Daily Mail by any chance?

    137. Patrick Roden says:

      Have you taken your concerns up with the Clydebank Trades Council Will?

      We are people who support self determination and independence from London rule here on Wings, so if your looking for people who shouted down the two who you claim were speaking against separatism, look somewhere else please.

      If you can’t even ask a question without being stupid and insulting, you are perhaps yourself another Kesia wanabe?

    138. Dramfineday says:

      Gillie @ 10.10am

      “ex-MSP Lord George Foulkes (aka FuFu le Hobnob)”

      AKA FuFu Puncheepolis.

    139. ThereWasACoo says:

      Yes, the ‘bayonet’ tweet was mine.

      It was a moment of extreme weakness, and very ill-judged. At the time, full of ire, it seemed like the best (if somewhat knee jerk) response I could give to her “dancing on the head of a pin” tweet… which, curiously, she seems to have deleted leaving only what’s available via the link provided by WoS.

      If I remember correctly, Kezia was being particularly vitriolic about both the Scottish Government and the YES campaign, while at the same time trying to take credit for an SNP flagship policy (sound familiar?). I remember it was SO blatant that I actually thought her neck was truly made of solid brass!

      From around 28,000 tweets, there’s 2 or 3 times I’ve posted something rather hastily; I am human and make mistakes, sue me. However (and this is not making any excuses for myself), I think I have a better batting average than your everyday BritNat… Euan McColm and Kenny Farqhurson immediately spring to mind.

      Still, it was not my proudest moment.

    140. Grendel says:

      Will Podmore, you said this on Socialism First:
      “Our unions have always defended national pay bargaining and opposed regional pay, so to be consistent we must oppose proposals that would cause even more divisions within Britain. A Scottish breakaway, the break-up of Britain, would destroy national pay bargaining, to the benefit of the employing class.

      The break-up of Britain would also destroy our united, national, trade unions. It would split the British working class on national, sectarian lines. We should be breaking down national barriers, not creating them.

      So the whole British working class should do all it can to work for a ‘No’ vote in the referendum in Scotland.”

      Bob Crow sent a message to RMT workers here in Scotland, that independence will have no effect on their membership of their union. They represent workers across national boundaries and will continue to do so. At the meeting I attended long term trades unionists, dyed in the wool Labour men, were saying how they had lost faith with Labour and that independence offered a new start.

      I think you are misguided if you attempt to say that staying together will prevent the break up of the unions. If Mr Crow doesn’t believe it will, why should we believe you?

    141. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “At the Clydebank Trades Council meeting on 3 October, Anas Sarwar and a fellow speaker against separatism (Richard Leonard from ‘Red Paper on Scotland’), were shouted down by non-stop screeching from extreme nationalists and ‘Scottish Socialist Party’ members…”

      Allegations like that would be a lot easier to make stick if the video of the entire event wasn’t available for people to see for themselves.

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-voices-of-the-people/

      PS Phrases like “speaker against separatism” are only likely to make people here think you’re a dick and provoke responses in similar tone. If that’s your goal, fine. If you were hoping for a more grown-up discussion, maybe think on.

    142. Robert Louis says:

      Will Podmore,

      Since you are clearly very level headed and would clearly want to encourage sensible debate, perhaps it was just a slip on you part, that you chose to use the rather divisive term ‘separatism’, when what you really meant, surely, was ‘independence’.

      The vote in September will have one question: Should Scotland be an independent country.? There is no question on separatism – whatever that might be.

      As for those shouting down Mr. Sarwar, I think that in this democracy, there is a long established freedom to express our dislike of politicians of any party. It is in point of fact, one of the pillars of most western democracies. Churchill was regularly heckled in the streets and in meetings, as was Thatcher and Blair and many, many others. This does not mean personal abuse is necessarily acceptable, but most politicians accept that from time to time, there may be dissenting voices who express their disapproval in a strong vocal manner. It goes with the territory, you might say. I do not doubt Mr. Sarwar already knows this.

      So, by all means let’s have a reasoned debate, but perhaps better together might like to stop insinuating that either Alex Salmond or the pro independence YES campaign are behind any and all abuse, as it is simply untrue. There are nutters in all walks of life, and on all sides of the argument – to automatically imply they are controlled by Alex Salmond or the YES campaign is just disingenuous.

      Unionists and those opposing independence, however, have let themselves down repeatedly in the way in which they have talked on record of our twice democratically elected First Minister of Scotland. He has been described in the most appalling way by BBC presenters, members of the house of Lords and members of the Labour and Tory parties (link: http://wingsoverscotland.com/alex-salmond-dictator-comparison-bingo/), yet he is probably the strongest advocate of true democracy and reasoned debate within the UK political class.

    143. Gillie says:

      Kezia Dugdale, a Labour MSP is now in league with the Daily Mail devil.

      I think we should just leave it there.

    144. joe kane says:

      Another example of Labour politicians being abused and shouted down at a public meeting took place under the auspices of the nearby Clydebank Trade Union Council. Hardly a forum that would tolerate separatist disruption. Strange that Labour-Daily Mail supporters don’t mention this other example from Clydebank in support of their claims of public abuse directed at the sensitive wallflowers of the Scottish Labour Party –
      Jackie Baillie is a liar
      http://wingsoverscotland.com/jackie-baillie-is-a-liar/

    145. Andy-B says:

      Well pointed out Rev,that when abuse arises from a higher up source, in the union camp, no mention is made of it in Scottish newspapers, which are owned, from south of the border. As for Miss Dugdale no one should be threatened for airing their views, but I can’t help thinking, there’s a good bit of politicking going here by Miss Dugdale.

    146. Andy-B says:

      @Will Podmore.

      The good people of Clydebank are angry with the Labour Party who’ve abandoned them, and basically sided with the Tories, Mr Sarwar didn’t even bother to vote against the hated bedroom tax, how much destitution and despair do you want to see before people finally snap.

      Of course, I’m against abuse of the audience and the debaters, and as I recall the lady who was told to shut up, kept butting in and shouting out to questions not aimed at her. whether or not she was a deliberate agitator is open to question, but, there’s no excuse from both sides, for abuse.

    147. Albert Herring says:

      This Cybernat stuff’s getting boring. When can we get back to “Salmond’s a fat nazi”?

    148. Croompenstein says:

      It surely wasn’t a beef bayonet!

    149. Defo says:

      Nobody seems to have noticed, so once again….
      Kezia is still posting on the hootsmon. ‘Rear Admiral Sturgeon’ is the moniker.
      FiFi disappeared because she got put on the naughty step one time too many by the mods.

    150. Mary Bruce says:

      Defo: Rear Admiral Sturgeon on the Scotsman is a really vile and offensive troll, one of the more unpleasant on there. If true then the hypocrisy is utterly staggering.

    151. Defo says:

      As far as I know Mary, she is. Same ‘style’, other commenters there seem to think so, and as I’ve addressed her as “kezia” and FiFi dozens, if not hundreds of times, without any denial ever…. Best i can do you is 98% sure.

    152. EdinScot says:

      Lets hear it for that poor wee shrinking violet Kezia one two three awww. I mean look at the tragic looking face and ask yourselves does that face and body language look like one who is on the winning side. How pathetic the Unionists have become that theyre reduced to this, I mean theyre meant to be there to help their constituents but with her sad wee look she couldnt help herself! Totally bereft of ideas or a vision for the people of Scotland. Theyre sinking lower until theyre under the waterline. Wouldnt want to be them.

    153. Defo says:

      I could suggest however, that if the Rear Admiral was to suddenly retire, that might give the game away. I’m off to do a number on her.

    154. cath says:

      Is “Rear Admiral Sturgeon” the same person who posts as “Nicola Sturgeon” on the Better Together Facebook page? Again similar kind of style.

    155. Alan Mackintosh says:

      I glanced at the daily heil in the shop earlier, and noticed the article. On the preceding page there was a bit about Alex Salmond having made a statement about the twitter trolls etc. He at least made the point that there was vitriol on both sides of the debate.

    156. Mary Bruce says:

      @Cath, do you mean Nicola Surgeon?

      https://www.facebook.com/nicola.surgeon.3?fref=ts

    157. HandandShrimp says:

      It occurs to me that the face Kezia has is because someone has just said, “you do know that it was the Mail that did the outrageous hatchet job on Ed’s Dad?”

    158. Stephen McKenzie says:

      Is it just me or does Kesia’s left arm seem to emerge from her body at a considerably lower level than the right arm.
      Now far be it from me to suggest that this is a mock up and her left arm sleeve actually is as bad fitting as it looks.

    159. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Oh aye and regarding the blackshirts. Interesting reading of the names of british blackshirt supporters. Rothermere and Brocket(Knoydart Estate) of course but several Labour MPs in there too, as well. And our very own Duke of Buccleugh, Earl of Mar, Duke of Hamilton,Perhaps she feels at home after hobnobbing with Lord Fu Fu

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Union_of_Fascists

    160. Defo says:

      Jobs a good one.
      I don’t think we will hear from the Rear Admiral for much longer.

    161. Albert Herring says:

      Why’s Kezia tweeting in her overcoat? Can she no afford tae heat her hoose?

    162. Appleby says:

      I saw on the front page of a newspaper that it said that Alex Salmond had intervened with the cyber bullies to ask them to stop and so on. I hope he was not so foolish as to make a comment on it as if he was it is now a front page stick to beat people with. It is nothing to do with him in the first place.

    163. RICHARD says:

      @will podmore

      I watched the whole clydebank video and I have watched most of the debates. I believe that the Labour Party (and the union unions) are only getting what they deserve. I dont condone misbehaviour but, daily on twitter and in the press I see british nationalist abuse. Furthermore, do you condone cameron approaching Putin?
      How much are you encouraging the british government to provide clarity of the matters that fall within its power. As for abuse, i have watched a video of Douglas Alexander abusing Nicola Sturgeon live on TV constantly talking over her. This from one of the leading lights of a labouf party that I have given my vote to for 40 years. If the politicians set the bar, the public will try to jump over it. As a trade unionist from the days of COHSE, I find the lack of democracy in some unions deplorable.

    164. RICHARD says:

      Appleby

      I read that he deplored abuse on both sides.

      O/T the other day I wondered what they were hiding. This is all designed to mask Yes progress in the polls.

      on twitter, there is a britnat abuse bot running. If you retweet some of the more Unionist tweets – you know the stuff about salmond and fascism etc, the bot helpfully sends it to a wider audience

    165. Defo says:

      I seem to have flushed her out. My reply to her unbelievable rant on todays Hootsmon. The 50% tax story.

      Kezia Dugdale, aka Fifi la bonbon, aka Rear Admiral Sturgeon, aka Jezerna from Slovenia , aka Dawn, ect ect whines below,

      “I have been repeatedly collectively attacked by the Scottish yes supporters on all sites where I post (e.g. also in Guardian as Abiesalba and in Herald as Jezerna Roza). I find these gang-attacks, including collective spreading of lies about me, very sinister.”

      Maybe if you stopped spewing bile & lies, and just debated ?
      You could just use your real name.

      ” In our part of the world, we have lived through several dictatorial regimes in fairly recent history (Nazi Germany, fascist Italy..”

      That will be those self same regimes that your new friends the Daily Mail supported then? The Mail! Your lot are using the Mail to try and suppress free speech, trying to swat down those pesky cybernats, because you can’t control the dissemination of information across the internet. Not happy enough having the entire MSM spouting your rancid propaganda love?

      “According to our (and also my personal) experience, dictatorial governments do not always directly attack their opponents. They often use their faithful supporters, who go and personally denigrate political opponents in the communities where these opponents live, work and express their opinions. These faithful supporters collectively spread lies about the ‘dissident’ and collectively denigrate him/her, trying to persuade the whole community to ‘expel’ the opponent as an ‘unwanted’ person. In this way, the autocratic government or political party is not ‘directly’ involved in silencing the opponents, but rather stays in the background and lets its faithful supporters do the dirty work.”

      Dear oh dear. You could be writing an autobiographical here. Doing Lord Fu’s dirty work as Fifi was only the start of your Unitrolling career. You should have let it go at that point, when you were still ahead. The Mails pogrom isn’t about “silencing the opponents”?

      “I would like the readers of these threads to note that an individual cannot protect his/her freedom of speech. FREEDOM OF SPEECH CAN ONLY BE PROTECTED BY THE WHOLE COMMUNITY, if other people stand up and protest when anybody tries to suppress the freedom of speech of an individual.”

      Some individuals can however go whimpering to the Daily Heil, like your mucca Murph & yourself, and have reasonable, fair minded commenters & bloggers like Rev C at Wings over Scotland hounded by their stormtroopers, and slandered in public.

      You are a disgrace, unfit to clean the loo’s at Holyrood, never mind stand as a representative of the Scottish people.
      Happily however, you have played a bum note by appearing in the Daily Heil, and it’s all downhill from here.

    166. Bob says:

      I do hope Kezia wasn’t sending abusive personal tweets when she worked for Foulkes at the Scottish Parliament using parliamentary equipment.

    167. Mary Bruce says:

      It seems like Kezia Dugdaleymail has done herself a lot of damage by cosying up to the same right wing rag that continually attacks the Labour party. I can’t see Kezia’s career surviving in indy Scotland.

    168. Martin Donnelly says:

      Two Labour politicians entering into a Faustian pact, playing a zero sum game, conducting a scorched earth policy. It is cant and cynicism of the highest order. The Mail of all papers, a qintessentialy English right wing paper being used by Scots to attack fellow Scots. It’s just wrong. Where is their honour and decency? What does it mean to them to be a labour politician? Do they know the history of their own party – it’s the mail for gods sake – what were you thinking!? Do you think we’ll forget?
      Anyway – rant over!

    169. Will Podmore says:

      Grendel asked, “Do you work for the Daily Mail by any chance?” No.
      Grendel then asked if I was the author of ‘The EU: bad for Britain – a trade union view’. Yes.
      Will you print my reply this time? Or am I not allowed to answer questions put to me here?

    170. Jim says:

      On Question Time, Kezia came across as not very clever. It may be that she has talents that merit her pay packet but she failed to exhibit any during the broadcast.

    171. Defo says:

      Keziawatch.
      Now that the outed Rear Admiral is fading into the sunset, Kezia has done a lazarus, and upbraided herself. Now she slavers pish as ‘General Zog’. Also spouting bile as’Jezerna from Slovenia’ & possibly ‘John Barrowman’, all at the Hootsmon.

    172. Jim gibson says:

      Do her Labour Party colleagues know she’s as nutty as she appears to be?

    173. Stevie says:

      Andrew Skinner’s ugly contribution to the twitter debate (a picture is in record on cyberbrits):

      https://www.facebook.com/groups/393824353964422/



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