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Why is this okay again?

Posted on July 01, 2015 by

Two nights of political debate on the BBC:

scot2015

Six unionists, two nationalists. What’s that all about, then?

Because by pretty much any sort of rational measure, that’s not a fair or proportionate line-up. Those six Unionists are representing parties with just three MPs in Scotland, whereas the two nationalists are representing 56 MPs.

Now of course, that’s an unfair quirk of the First Past The Post electoral system. If we were to instead go by votes cast, the Scottish electorate breaks down almost exactly 50/50 Unionists and nationalists, yet one side gets three times the representation.

“Ah, but Scottish politics isn’t all about the constitution question”, says someone tedious. And indeed it isn’t. But the same thing applies as to the population count – three parties with a total of 50% of the vote are getting three times as much exposure as a single party with the same amount on its own.

And it’s not as if their views are so different they need all three of them to present a wide range of views. Also, if that was the criterion you’d have the Greens on, who are more different from any of them than any of the Unionists are from each other.

One SNP, one Green and any two from Labour, Tory and Lib Dem would always give a broader sample of opinions, and the Greens only have one fewer MP than any of the Unionist parties so it’s not as if they have no case. Are we to expect that if David Mundell had got just 900 fewer votes in May and lost, the Tories wouldn’t be on?

Three-against-one was at least a semi-defensible position when the SNP only got 20% of the Westminster vote. But the political situation in Scotland has changed radically, yet media coverage doesn’t reflect that fact in any way. To the BBC and (to a slightly lesser extent) STV it’s as if the general election simply didn’t happen.

At Holyrood, if you don’t have enough MSPs you get less “airtime”. That’s why Willie Rennie doesn’t get to ask questions at FMQs every week. Why are we still expected to tolerate such a blatant level of bias in our current-affairs shows?

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    226 to “Why is this okay again?”

    1. handclapping says:

      Eat your cereal!

      PS Red Stripe makes good porridge

    2. galamcennalath says:

      “Why are we still expected to tolerate such a blatant level of bias in our current-affairs shows?”

      Their media, their rules.

    3. jimnarlene says:

      Scotland 2015 is mirroring Westminster, gag those pesky nationalists at every turn. Nevermind, they may have some good policies and ideas, gang up and repeat till you’re blue in the face, SNP bad.

      The quicker this union is dissolved, the better.

    4. Eddie says:

      Every time I see Jackie Baillie, my resolve to fight on for independence is topped up.

    5. allan thomson says:

      There is unfortunately only one answer to that and it is the absence of a mechanism to rid the BBC of its bias. If there is a grass roots way of achieving it count me in!

    6. Thepnr says:

      The political programs on the BBC in Scotland are not made to inform the electorate but only to support and encourage those that are against Independence.

      The media presstitutes care not for society only their positions, promotion prospects and serving the lizard people.

      Just as corrupt civilisations have collapsed in the past so too will this house of cards. Time is on our side.

    7. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      Rev Stu,
      It is because it is the BBC.

      I think the SNP and pro Indy parties and their supporters should just boycott the BBC completely.

      It is pointless giving them any airtime. Stop paying the license fee and stop watching them and every day they will become less and less relevant.

      And anyway it is a rubbish program – watched it once last year and never again. Sarah Smith is just hopeless.

    8. wee_monsieur says:

      Dear BBC,

      You are SERIOUSLY pissing people off with this nonsense.

    9. mogabee says:

      It’s not fair, right or equal.

      The “establishment” are pushing my buttons.

      I’m avoiding any unionist/no voter just in case… :O(

    10. Dr Jim says:

      Eh? Didn’t the Greens just vote with the Tories and Labour against the SNP and Scotland ?

      If so, who’s side are the Greens ever really on ?

      Ah! co-operation and trust, it’s a fine thing

      I could be wrong

    11. seanair says:

      Before Stewart Maxwell and Linda Fabiani answer a question they should point out the BBC’s bias and inform the interviewer that the political world has changed in Scotland and the BBC should recognise this. Absolute s……e from Pacific Quay.

    12. Ken500 says:

      Two of them are unelected.

    13. Rock says:

      “Six unionists, two nationalists. What’s that all about, then?”

      Pravda GB’s impartial balance as required by the Pravda GB Trust, that’s what it is all about.

    14. Craig Wilson says:

      The silver lining is that every TV channel did this for 8 months before the election (and indeed for donkey’s years beforehand), and it did absolutely nothing to stop the SNP rising to 50% of the vote. If anything, the explicit bias seems to harden the SNP vote.

    15. Ken500 says:

      Four are unelectable. Next round

    16. R says:

      It’s outrageous!

      I’m with Eddie. Every time I see the Baillie freak I’m refuelled. Who the fuck voted for her, seriously? The blind & deaf?

    17. Craig says:

      Sorry for this O/T post

      What the hell was Patrick Harvie thinking????? He has blown any chance of the Scottish Green Party doing well in next years Scottish GE

      http://swatchoscotland.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/scottish-greens-from-monetary-haivers.html

    18. Sassenach says:

      Until BBC is devolved we haven’t a hope of arguing for independence – the cards are stacked against us.

      There are still loads of (particularly elderly) people who still believe that ‘Auntie’ is un-biassed, and the Sunday post is their main reading matter.

      Until a way is found to counter these things, a new referendum has to be delayed, or they will do it to us all over again (they are laying the groundwork already!).

    19. G H Graham says:

      Has anyone ever seen Boris Johnson & Annabel Goldie in the same room at the same time?

    20. Rock says:

      Dr Jim,

      “Eh? Didn’t the Greens just vote with the Tories and Labour against the SNP and Scotland ?

      If so, who’s side are the Greens ever really on ?”

      The Greens are as much anti-SNP as the unionists.

      That is why SNP supporters must give BOTH their votes to the SNP in the 2016 Scottish election.

      And never forget that the Tory Viceroy of Scotland would have very likely lost his seat if the Greens had not stood a candidate against the SNP.

    21. Ken500 says:

      No mention of EVEL in the Press. How to justify it?

    22. Katrina says:

      What do you suggest we do about it ?

    23. msean says:

      Seem to remember that during the indyref campaign,the panels were all based on the 2010 general election result or some such excuse,I’m sure that was said somewhere when the question of panel makeup was asked.

      If the last general election result is what you wish to reflect, as may have been that answer then, I think,then that the last general election result available is now 56-1-1-1.

    24. Scot-Nat-Al says:

      We just have to deal with it,simple as that.
      I’m actually losing the will to continue the independence fight,56 sent to WM just to be shouted down and bills abstained to.
      the next election is my last.
      FYU,fcuk yer tax man and wee betty tae they wont be getting my money anymore.

    25. Macart says:

      Well…. its okay just because.

      Now pour me another bowl of sugar puffs.

    26. Thepnr says:

      @Dr Jim

      The Greens are not alone in distrusting FFA Westminster style.

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-best-and-worst-of-times/#more-71987

      This site has long portrayed FFA in the form that it would be imposed by Westminster as a trap designed to impoverish Scotland. But as Macwhirter notes, a negotiated FFA would be a very different beast.

      The half-arsed, watered-down, veto-riddled Scotland Bill is a lot closer to the former than the latter. It piles responsibilities on Holyrood but almost no useable powers.

      A truly fiscally autonomous Scotland would have genuine job-creating powers, business taxation powers, real welfare powers, minimum wage powers. What’s being proposed is the worst of all possible worlds, and in the wake of the Smith Commission report the SNP’s 56 MPs were elected expressly and explicitly on the basis of a manifesto commitment to take the reality much closer to what was promised.

      The phenomenal rise in support for Independence and the SNP is to be cherished.
      Cultivating friends rather than foes is always a good idea when looking for further support.

    27. G H Graham says:

      The BBC’s primary role is to protect the Establishment of which it is, itself a key pillar.

      Maintaining a bias of public & political opinion in The Establishment’s favour is key.

      Hence, one may NEVER bear witness to a panel on the BBC in which the majority are provided an opportunity to question the legitimacy of the Union or indeed The Establishment.

      It has always been thus & will remain so until such time, a majority of Scots demand an alternative.

    28. Rock says:

      Craig,

      “What the hell was Patrick Harvie thinking?????”

      I have been pointing out Patrick Harvie’s anti-SNP credentials and the Greens’ spoilsports tactics in standing candidates against the SNP in the Westminster election for a long time.

      Paula Rose, you still there? Serious questions to answer on behalf of the Greens.

      Your usual patronising and fobbing off will not work any more.

    29. Ken500 says:

      The Greens are as daft as the LibDems, who they often masquerade under, along with the Tories. They collude with Unionists and landowners (and are funded by them) against the majority and the public interest.

      To compare Scotland to Greece is just beyond stupid.

    30. Phil Robertson says:

      Sorry did I miss your complaint before the election about Labour being under represented on such panels given that they held most of the Scottish seats.

      It is perfectly reasonable to give each of the major parties a place in these discussions.

    31. CameronB Brodie says:

      I think it is becoming obvious that BBC bias is due to more than ‘management problems’. It appears it’s almost certainly institutional. You wouldn’t really expect the publicly funded backbone of modern British popular culture, to aid and assist insurgents who are bent on wrecking the UK, would you?

      Talking of “lizard people”, kittens give Morbo gas. 🙂

    32. breeks says:

      For true parity, us Nationalists would need a state funded propaganda machine to counterbalance the one the Unionists have.

      Did I say one? Silly me.

    33. test

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    34. @Phil Robertson

      LibDems a major party with a total of 8 MPs I don’t remember the SNP given that status in the not so distant past!

    35. Proud Cybernat says:

      Why are we still expected to tolerate such a blatant level of bias in our current-affairs shows?

      Because we just are. They are the Berlin Broadcasting Corporation and they can do WTF they damn well like.

      S’okay tho–I ain’t listening to their rubbish anyway. Their utter crap is falling on deaf ears as fr as I am concerned. Even when no one is listening to them they will still be pumping out their BritNat keech.

    36. davidb says:

      @ Phil Robertson

      The Libdems are hardly a “major party”. The self confessed liar that they are putting up on one of the programs may even lose their last seat soon if we are lucky.

    37. Graeme James Borthwick says:

      I make a point when downtown in Edinburgh to call in on the BBC and ask them about their dishonest maps they show for the weather and so on. They don’t like it but I remind them that I have been paying their salaries for fifty years…..but not any more thank god. I’m 77 and free of the BBC!

    38. CameronB Brodie says:

      Phil Robertson
      Does having ONE sitting MP each, constitute “major parties” in a modern Scottish political context?

    39. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Rock ( Paula Rose, you still there? Serious questions to answer on behalf of the Greens.

      Your usual patronising and fobbing off will not work any more.)

      And who exactly appointed you as the Grand Inquisitor,to make demands of Paula Rose,you,ve had a few pops at Paula Rose in the past. Draw yer neck in man. Paula is not a spokesperson for the Greens as far as I,m aware.

    40. Two things:

      1) Patrick Harvie and Caroline Lucas voted the way they did for valid reasons. Let’s not start kicking allies for being principled rather than pragmatic… that’s what Greens are for!

      https://commonspace.scot/articles/1775/scottish-greens-back-caroline-lucas-decision-to-vote-against-full-fiscal-autonomy

      2) SOMEBODY has to keep track of Pacific Quay. I’m already on billboards, so not me. Who wants to run Quaywatch? Just take a note of who appears on all BBC Scotland news/current affairs shows every day for a few months: note their political leaning, and level of seniority if they’re a politician. Once we have these stats, we can expose the bias, make proper complaints, and publicise the situation at home and abroad.

    41. One_Scot says:

      Is really is a sad state of affairs, but unless Scotland gets some sort of control over broadcasting, I can’t see things ever changing.

    42. Ken MacColl says:

      It might be encouraging if the ex Governor General was going to be seriously questioned about his dodgy behaviour pre-election but that will certainly not happen in Sarah Smith’s anodyne programme.
      I understood that she, along with Naughtie,were drafted from London to give gravitas to the NO side of the referendum campaign. I stopped watching her programme early on and can only ask why she has been retained.

    43. Marian says:

      Fact is that the Westminster political parties and their propaganda mouthpieces in the MSM and BBC, don’t believe in a separate Scottish political identity, hence why everything they do is from a politically centralist viewpoint.

      This is also why they have no qualms about using the votes of 500+ Unionist MP’s to thwart the efforts of 56 SNP MP’s to secure FFA.

    44. Sinky says:

      Given that three largest minor parties in Scotland get equal treatment in all Scottish political output when will BBC London give equal treatment to the third largest party in House of Commons on BBC TV Question Time, other political and current affairs programmes or on newspaper reviews?

      In Scotland it should be easy enough to find a pro Indy commentator to get some sort of political balance when discussing constitutional matters.

      Britannia waves the rules.

    45. John Young says:

      OT -Two excellent maiden speeches today and once again I followed parliament live this evening, fast forwarding much of it.

      The SNP at Westminster knew they had five questions at PMQ’s today.

      In my opinion they did not make the most of this opportunity, by asking the same question on EVEL five times only allowed Cameron to gain confidence with each and every response.

      My thoughts are that this might have made better use of this opportunity.

      1) Yes or No, Mr Cameron did you sign the Vow?
      2) Did the first line of the Vow you now admit to signing, promise that our Parliament in Scotland would be permanent?
      3) Do you advise the party you lead, to vote to uphold the promises you make? Yes or No
      4) Did your party vote to make the Parliament in Scotland permanent?
      5) Do you consider yourself an honest person Mr Cameron? Yes or No

      There would of course be reserve questions for the five if this somehow fell through.

      I do hope the SNP 56 are working to a long term plan rather than working week to week but they really must do better than they did today.

    46. Papadox says:

      Brillo and the daily politics today.

      After PMQs where five SNP Questions were asked Brillo never even mentioned them, and EBC “news” ignored them also. At the end Brillo was grinning like a Cheshire Cat. Wonder why?

      The Eglish broadcasting cabal along with the other MSM are working to the old belief out of sight out of mind. On the suggestion of the establishments agents?

    47. msean says:

      Are these unionists trying to get us to like the house of lords? They have no place in a democracy while unelected.

      If this guy isn’t speaking for the Secretary of State,why is he here?

    48. Robert Peffers says:

      As I’m some way over 75 I wouldn’t have to pay for a TV licence anyway but declined to do so. After threatening letters falling through my letter box like confetti I eventually found an e-mail address to contact them, (I can’t decipher voices over the phone so couldn’t phone).

      I ripped them off a strip and told them I had three TVs, Three computers, a Blu-ray PVR, a dvd player and an xbox360 all on a hard-wired home network but no aerial connection to anything.

      I then informed them I had spoken with my lawyer as their threatening letters amounted to harassment and I refused them access to my property. I also informed them I chose NOT to watch Establishment propaganda.

      They then left me alone but I got a letter telling me they would not bother me again.


      – that is until a week or so back when they sent a letter asking me if I had reconsidered renewing my free licence.

      I’m now waiting to see if they follow up their letter before considering actually complaining to the police about being harassed.

    49. Craig Macinnes says:

      Fucks sake! Just watched that farce of a “debate” on unionist TV. It wasn’t just 3 lying unionists against Stewart Maxwell but that Sarah Smith too! Constant interruption when Maxwell was speaking, no interruption when the unionists were chuntering on and on and constant hostility to anything he was trying to say, easy feeds to the unionists with no hard questioning…seems the unionist side have learned nothing since their crushing defeat in May and seem determined to talk Scotland and its people down at every turn. God save us! What did we do to deserve such haters of their homeland so willing to see Scotland fail as these unionists?

    50. John from Fife says:

      According to the Scotland 2015 “debate” the Scottish black hole is now £17B. It now seems that the black hole is on top of Scotland’s UK debt share. Scotland has the most powerfull devolved parliament in the world…..zzzzz.

    51. The Man in the Jar says:

      We should refer to S.Labour, Lib Dems and the Tories as what they truly are in Scotland. Minority fringe parties. Nothing more!

    52. David McDowell says:

      Dictatorship at Westminster.
      BBC propaganda in Scotland.
      Trying to goad us into holding another referendum which they can win by scaring pensioners.
      Enough is enough.
      Holyrood 2016: “A vote for the SNP is a vote for independence.”
      Unless that is the call I will not be voting for the SNP…for the first time in 40 years.
      They have been warned.

    53. ewen says:

      I had to switch the tv off. 4 against 1. Grrrr

    54. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Scunterbunnet Prof John Robertson has all the bias reports you would want,just ask him.

    55. msean says:

      They think we can’t see the bias because it looks ok to them. Keep it up,your doing a grand job for the the snp.

    56. Big Jock says:

      Craig they know the game is up for them. Wipeout at Holyrood and independence will not be long. This is the equivalent of the spurned spouse taking the huff. It’s very childish and as for Carmichael. Why is he allowed to speak on TV debates after lying so openly.

      Why does Sarah not question him on his integrity whilst he was Scotland office minister. Instead she uses the Labour line that the SNP don’t use the powers they have over income tax and the deficit. UK has billions of defecit year on year but thats fine they are a real country. Scotland,their Scotland would sink into the sea.

      A ("Tractor" - Ed) is someone who has no loyalty to their own nation or has loyalty to another nation that isn’t their own which does their nation harm. I rest my case.

    57. David McCann says:

      As Craig above says, it was actually four against one.
      Sarah Smith was a disgrace, and did not once interfere to let Maxwell speak, when he was shouted down by the unionists.
      The SNP should refuse to come on to this programme, unless balance, which reflects the political reality, is restored.

    58. Dr Jim says:

      @Craig MacInnes

      Me too,
      I’ve seen it all now, it was bad enough when the BBC and Sarah Smith were the propaganda wing of the Labour party

      Now, they’ve turned into Tories

      That was just a shocking performance of Referendum Rhetoric and ganging up stupidity from the three (sorry four) Unionist parties

      Well I suppose we’ve come to expect it from them

      The new Mantra seems to be “SNP Thou shalt not be allowed to speak”

      Just remembered isn’t Carmichael due in court tomorrow on the “Big Fat liar Charge”

    59. Ronnie says:

      O/T

      I see that the BBC intend to continue to describe the terrorist organisation responsible for the Tunisian massacre as ‘Islamic State’, despite world leaders and our own Tasmina Ahmed-Sheik MSP preferring the use of ‘Daesh’ in today’s National.

      They believe Daesh to be ‘pejorative’ and must ‘maintain their impartiality’.

      So what’s the difference?

      I went looking, and found this…

      https://www.freewordcentre.com/blog/2015/02/daesh-isis-media-alice-guthrie/

      Make up your own minds, but I know which term I’ll be using from now on.

    60. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Dr Jim 11.43 Naw Jim it a proceedural thing , Lawyers & Lady Paton.

    61. Robert Peffers says:

      @

      John Young says: 1 July, 2015 at 10:21 pm:

      “The SNP at Westminster knew they had five questions at PMQ’s today.

      In my opinion they did not make the most of this opportunity, by asking the same question on EVEL five times only allowed Cameron to gain confidence with each and every response.”

      Three things about that, John.

      First it is all recorded in Hansard and it gives them the chance to tote up a larger number of such questions and hit Cameron with it later on – and remember, John, these people are very astute. I’d bet that there is something else brewing in the background.

      Second it is bound to raise the question in Cameron’s mind – “what are these people playing at”? That will come after he has reached a quiet time for reflection. He may be stupid enough to just think they are a bunch of idiots but I give him more credit than that.

      The third thing is that the questions are not sprung upon the PM. He gets briefed upon what is to be asked and he has researchers getting the answers. The more the Scots tie up the Tory party guys in such business the added up time involved could prevent then getting enough parliamentary time later on to get things they have planned on through the house.

      There is no finer brain on parliamentary procedures than Salmond and one reason Salmond gave for standing for Westminster was that he felt the younger and less experienced SNP members could be helped to make the most of their parliamentary time.

      As an old politics anorak I used to follow hoe Eck used to operate at Westminster and I can tell you he made himself a right pain in the then government’s rear.

      He it was that forced the then Tory guy, Waldegrove, to admit that Scotland paid more into the Treasury than Scotland got back – and that was in the days the Tories had invented the GERS reports just to prove Scotland too wee, too poor and too bloody stupid to run Scotland.

    62. G H Graham says:

      Only two actions can have any impact.

      1. Don’t pay the TV License Fee

      2. Any MSP or MP from the SNP party should refuse to appear on any BBC radio or TV program.

      While there does not exist a law of trespass in Scotland because it was superseded by the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003, you can exercise certain rights under that Act to prevent agents, officers, contractors or anyone else, acting on behalf of the BBC’s Television Licensing Authority from approaching your property (effectively an absolute withdrawal of access). Thus …

      The Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003, Part 1, Chapter 2, Section 6, Subsection 1, defines where access rights are not exercisable …

      (1) The land in respect of which access rights are not exercisable is land –
      (a) to the extent that there is on it –
      (i) a building or other structure or works, plant or fixed machinery;
      (ii) a caravan, tent or other place affording a person privacy or shelter;

      (b) which –
      (ii) forms a compound or other enclosure containing any such structure, works, plant or fixed machinery as is referred to in paragraph (a)(i) above;
      (iv) comprises, in relation to a house or any of the places mentioned in paragraph (a)(ii) above, sufficient adjacent land to enable persons living there to have reasonable measures of privacy in that house or place and to ensure that their enjoyment of that house or place is not unreasonably disturbed;

      I keep a Withdrawal of Access Notice posted at my door to keep the goons away. So unless subject to a warrant issued by a court, you have an absolute right, under provisions described above, to permit or prevent access. Whether it is implied or express is immaterial. This means that TV Licensing’s right of access to your property is not exercisable & indeed, non-negotiable.

      If you instruct TV Licensing to withdraw from your property, it must do so with all due reasonable care & speed.

      If it fails to do so, the presence of Police Scotland can be called upon to confirm that under the provisions in the Criminal Justice & Licensing (Scotland) Act 2010, part 2, Section 38, that a breach of the peace has been committed; a criminal & arrestable offence in Scotland & which if prosecuted, incurs a financial and/or custodial penalty limited only by the Court’s discretion.

      Any questions?

    63. Ian Brotherhood says:

      The arrangements will be firmed-up nearer the time, but Saturday 19th Sept is the date closest to the anniversary of the referendum, so it’s important.

      It seems that there is a ‘Hope Over Fear’ rally that same day. Presumably, that will be in ‘George’ Square. A lot of folk will want to attend that AND any Pacific Quay protest. But some will only want to attend one or t’other.

      Here’s hoping that organisers – and that includes us – have the good sense to arrange speakers etc, in such a way that both events can have maximum impact. (And that includes making allowances for football fixtures, whether they’re Govan-based or not.) 😉

    64. thedogphilosopher says:

      Yeah, just watched the Sarah Smith Show (otherwise known as I Love Ukay). A total set-up from start to finish. Such an obviously orchestrated bit of Nat-bashing, worst I’ve seen for a while.

      Felt kinda sorry for Stewart Maxwell who was swamped, and at times even mocked, by the three rare pandas to his right. Amazing how those three seats ‘permit’ them this kind of leverage. Should at least be even on either side: pro-Indy v. pro-Union, which might better reflect the political map here in Scotland. They’re still in denial, living in the past.

      Maxwell looked pretty pissed off by the end of it.

    65. heedtracker says:

      “It is perfectly reasonable to give each of the major parties a place in these discussions.”

      As they all pile into the one SNP guy. Yup that’s we’ve all come to expect from the BBC in Scotland Phil. How come Green Party are not given a podium you pack of BBC shills and placemen?

      Still it was lovely to see my Slovenian CiF girlfriend on the telly tonight, piling on the UKOK beef though, too much angry and desperate Cifing to stop Brexit, which really will end this farce union once and for all. Nice touches on “most powerful” parliament ever and other than Canada and the Swiss.

      The unionist tripe like “let’s stop arguing over the constitution and get stuck in the old left versus right” stuff just looked smug and silly.

      I watched Sarah Smith jingle about behind her podium in the boozer and no one had the faintest idea what any of their massive and important THE VOW delivered powers are.

      So Prof T, end of unionist era Murray, Carmichael, BBC and co, result there at least!

    66. Dr Jim says:

      @ThePnr

      I mean no harm to the Greens whatsoever
      But trust them or depend on them No that’s never going to happen
      They are a party with their own agenda and that’s fine and entirely a matter for them but I will never look to them for anything other than civility
      My Interest is in competent governance which includes Green Issues anyway, I have not or ever will see the need for a single issue party who does not interact on other matters

      And if they do they keep it quiet

      As i say, it does no harm to have The Greens reminding and prodding if these things are not going quickly enough but in terms of taking them seriously as politicians they have a very long way to go
      They also might remember the exposure and platform handed to them during the Referendum
      Before that time the Scottish population in the main would have not even given them a second thought
      Just because “We” know who Greens are doesn’t mean Mr and Mrs Average did

    67. Dr Jim says:

      @Ronnie Anderson
      Damn!!!
      Jist anxious the bum gets nailed

    68. Stoker says:

      Absolutely appalling:
      Oil giant Shell fined a paltry £6650 by Sheriff Kenneth Stewart at Aberdeen Sheriff Court for spilling approximately 15 tonnes of diesel into the North Sea from its Brent Bravo platform. Apparently the Sheriff reduced the fine from the maximum due to Shells early guilty plea.

      Some good news:
      Mhairi Black, Westminsters youngest politician, is to sit on the Work and Pensions select committee. SNP MPs will now sit on 26 select committees. There will be 3 members on the Scottish Affairs Committee, which the SNP will also chair.

      Various sources reporting both those snippets.

    69. Sassenach says:

      Sarah Smith is now so blatantly pro Labour, fawning over Murray as if he were leader of a strong party, that I gave up very quickly. It was obviously going to be 4 against 1 from the start.

      I’m not sure it’s any longer a good idea for the SNP to actually take part in these debates – might make more of a point simply to refuse to appear in them. Those people who know about BBC bias would understand, and those who still accept BBC propaganda, at least might then begin to wonder…….?

    70. Les wilson says:

      There is a day coming when we will not have to endure this stuff,
      can’t wait.

      I think it is time for the SNP to wake up the left in England, give Westminster some grief on their own patch. Also note the BBC do not have Nicola on any more, obviously they are not confident of getting their message across when she is on a “panel”

      She is exactly the person to wake up the English left. Maybe she should go UK wide with the proposal of all uk countries become independent? We need some way to break the cabal, so just saying!

    71. David McDowell says:

      G H Graham
      “Any questions?”
      What is the correct wording for a “Withdrawal of Access Notice”?

    72. Ronnie says:

      Sorry, Tasmina – should be ‘MP’ of course.

    73. DerekM says:

      Typical onions back to their usual SNP bad UKOK garbage,really sometimes i wonder why the SNP dont just tell them to sling their hook when asked to go on these shows,we wouldnt be mad at them for it,i think we would maybe be relieved we dont have to watch them get ganged up on by a bunch of liars.

      But i guess even bad PR is still PR and the SNP will be happy to let them do their bile why stop your competitors from continuing to make the same mistake and lets face it as mistakes go its a whopper and its like they are stuck in a referendum time warp and cant get out of it or for some reason want to pull us back into it.

      i guess they dont understand what to be progressive means,its like this westminster no wonder the UK is F***** it takes them for ever to do anything if they actually do anything,a total joke of a parliament definitely not fit for a progressive party or country,devoid of ideas or direction regarding their citizens and is just a free for all at the tax payers trough for family and friends.

      No wonder the economy usually gets better when they all go on holiday

    74. Meindevon says:

      Every time Carmichael opened his mouth tonight, Maxwell should have said ‘Well, I’d like to believe you but…’

    75. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Robert Peffers (11.21) –

      You can’t devote your full attention to this cause (or anything else for that matter), if you’re being hassled.

      Please, please, just ignore the bastards – they are not worth worrying about.

      🙂

    76. G H Graham says:

      NOTICE OF WITHDRAWL OF RIGHT OF ACCESS (Herein ‘Notice’)
      Issued by the Legal Occupier (Herein the ‘Resident’)

      =======================================================

      Address
      Date
      Effective (Date)

      To: TV Licensing, its agents, officers, contractors or anyone else, acting on behalf of the BBC’s Television Licensing Authority (Herein ‘TV Licensing’)…
      —————————————————————————————————
      As the ‘Resident’ of the ‘Property’, I hereby remove, with immediate effect, TV Licensing’s right of access to the ‘Property’.
      —————————————————————————————————

      The Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003, Part 1, Chapter 2, Section 6, Subsection 1, defines where access rights are not exercisable …

      (1) The land in respect of which access rights are not exercisable is land –
      (a) to the extent that there is on it –
      (i) a building or other structure or works, plant or fixed machinery;
      (ii) a caravan, tent or other place affording a person privacy or shelter;
      (b) which –
      (ii) forms a compound or other enclosure containing any such structure, works, plant or fixed machinery as is referred to in paragraph (a)(i) above;
      (iv) comprises, in relation to a house or any of the places mentioned in paragraph (a)(ii) above, sufficient adjacent land to enable persons living there to have reasonable measures of privacy in that house or place and to ensure that their enjoyment of that house or place is not unreasonably disturbed;
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      There exists no legal requirement upon the Resident to provide their name to TV Licensing when exercising their rights to withdraw a right of access. Thus, a response from TV Licensing such as, “… we can’t accept an anonymous withdrawal of a right of access to a property…” is no more valid than writing to or talking to a legal occupier of a property whose name you do not know, in order to seek a contract with them or to gain entry to a legal occupier’s household.

      Unless subject to a warrant issued by a court, the Resident has an absolute right, under provisions described above in the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003, to permit or prevent access. Whether it is implied or express is immaterial. This means that TV Licensing’s right of access to the Property is not exercisable & indeed, non-negotiable.

      If TV Licensing is instructed by the Resident or by representatives or by agents acting on behalf of the Resident, to withdraw from the Property, it must do so with all due reasonable care & speed. If it fails to do so, the presence of Police Scotland will be called upon to confirm that under the provisions in the Criminal Justice & Licensing (Scotland) Act 2010, part 2, Section 38, that a breach of the peace has been committed; a criminal & arrestable offence in Scotland & which if prosecuted, incurs a financial and/or custodial penalty limited only by the Court’s discretion.

      If TV Licensing responds in writing to this Notice, its letters will be placed before the Court as evidence that it has read, understood & accepted the provisions in the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 described above & also agrees that TV Licensing’s right of access to the Property has been legally withdrawn by the Resident.

      ===================================================================================

      Either post it at your property entrance or keep some copies near your door. If a goon shows up, demand their ID & then hand them a copy. Tell them they have enough time to read the notice & leave before you call the police.

      NEVER, EVER, give them your name or indeed any info & NEVER sign anything. And NEVER communicate with them in writing beyond handing an agent this notice. As soon as you start writing to them, you have effectively formed the basis of a contract.

      In summary, hand them the Notice then politely tell them to “fuck off”.

    77. charlie says:

      To be fair, the Labour Party who have ruled Scotlandshire for 70 years got a quarter of the vote and should have a quarter of a person on the panel.No abuse about the size of most of them btw (joke alert) The LibDems meh, the Greens, different point of view.

      I’m more concerned about six of the ‘publicity’ photos, they are bloody awful. You can be sure that the North Korean type government that Scotland has has photshopped them or, possibly, all the politicians that failed to be elected have no concept of how they appear to people who aren’t spin doctors/directorship chasers.
      Cheers

    78. Cadogan Enright says:

      BBC complaint made – night all

    79. John Moss says:

      Stop whining.

      If you really want to stop this nonsense then demand independence now.

      Simple.

      Free by 2016 🙂

    80. James Barr Gardner says:

      I am beginning to think that most PQ is not staffed by liebore scum but Mi5 5th columists.

    81. Ghillie says:

      In answer to your question Rev Stu, because the BBC, like any classroom bully, thinks that they will get away with it.

      Cameron is too desperately dim to actually take a major politician, Nicola Sturgeon, at her word when she warned him that it would not be business as usual at Westminster.

      They will learn, in time, that they have made a dreadful mistake in not recognizing what is right in front of them, a freshly politically invigorated Scotland that is now stepping away from their decrepit corrupt union, the voice of which is dear auld auntie. That defunct establishment hasn’t even had the common sense to hang on to any shred of dignity.

      More to be pitied than scorned. Hmm. Maybe. Maybe not.

    82. Dorothy Devine says:

      I’d be very surprised if many people watched the Sarah Smith show – viewing figures anyone?

      Same goes for the hand wringing Rhona Show on STV – which appears to need help.

      As for the SNP refusing to take part it would be turned against them as in ,” we invited the SNP to respond but they refused the invitation” said with arched eyebrows a la Bird.

      Unless the reason is clearly stated as in ” We are tired of the lies ,spin and drivel promulgated by BBBC Scotland and its Lib/Lab/Con sycophancy .We no longer regard it as fair ,safe and impartial in its coverage and therefore choose not to take part in any trumped up studio debate.”

      Wha Bares a Blade
      for Scotland?

      Wha bares a blade for Scotland? She’s needin’ ye sairly noo,

      What will ye dae for Scotland for a’ She has dane for you?

      Think o’ the auld-time slogans, the thread runnin’ throu’ your plaid,

      The cairns o’ the Covenanters whaur the martyrs’ banes are laid;

      Ay, the faith o’ your godly fathers, is it naething to you the day?

      Wha bares a blade for Scotland? noo is the time to say.

    83. john king says:

      GH Graham @9.20
      Has anyone ever seen Boris Johnson & Annabel Goldie in the same room at the same time?
      Now that you mention it…

      I did see Annabel Goldies Union Jack bloomers (I know I know) while she was on a zip wire and thought there was something familiar there. 🙂
      __________________________________________________________
      Phil Robertson@ 9.39
      “It is perfectly reasonable to give each of the major parties a place in these discussions.

      What?
      You are aware of the general election results Phil?
      There is ONE major party in Scotland!
      _____________________________________________________________
      @Paula Rose @Rogue Coder
      Request fulfilled. 🙂
      __________________________________________________________

    84. Ken500 says:

      Don’t watch it

      Cameron has told the BBC to call it Henman’s Hill. Just as Sony colluded with Cameron not to show ‘Outlander’ in Scotland.

      The cracks at Westminster are starting to show.

    85. The Isolator says:

      The SNP speak for the people of Scotland, always have and always will.All thisTalk of pulling out of these televised charades but it isn’t going to happen.This is the reason we are where we are.4 to 1 is how we like it.They are united and we are the underdog.(albeit in the Media)

      Hold your your nerve folks,hold your nerve.

    86. Clootie says:

      handclapping says:
      1 July, 2015 at 8:52 pm

      Eat your cereal!

      🙂 says it all!

    87. Dorothy Devine says:

      Anyone read the depressing shite in the Spectator?
      Dinna bother , for you can all guess and I would hate the smug wee Spectator to get more hits.

      Suffice it to say , those liars & spinners in the media have a deal to answer for and Westminster is far from democratic.

    88. Alastair Wright says:

      Could someone remind me which parliament that Prof. Tomkins has been ELECTED to?

    89. Luigi says:

      I watched Scotland 2015 last night I wish I hadn’t. I wont get back those 30 wasted minutes of my life. For those sensible enough to give it a wide berth last night, allow me to summarise:

      Stewart Maxwell tried to get some reasonable points across, but was drowned out by the sound of four tractors.

    90. Dorothy Devine says:

      Alastair, the Parliament of Untouchables that is the Parliament of the MSM.
      Nice to see Jezerna doing so well eh?

    91. Luigi says:

      Prof. Tomkins is an odious character. A rather nasty piece of work. Anyone who disagrees with him is considered stupid. His pathetic “Full Fiscal Stupidity” remark that he repeated last night was not very clever (he seems to think it was). With 60% of the population in favour of FFA, he succeeded in offending a large number of people.

    92. Patrick Roden says:

      As far as I’m concerned, we are getting close to the point when it will be the SNP who are responsible for us getting all this crap rammed down our throats, because they refuse to stand up against it.

      We Scots voted by a majority for our Independence but the all inclusive vote meant that the large number of English residents living here were able to stay loyal to Westminster and swing the vote against us.

      If we have another vote and follow the example of the EU referendum franchise and only allow Scots born here who are still resident here to vote, we will be out of this stinking union, it’s as simple as that.

      The fact that both Ruth Davidson and McTernan have also admitted that they knew the figures for postal votes, as well as all the dubious claims about corrupted postal votes, we need to offer this opportunity only for people who can provide medical certificates proving they are disabled enough to make going to the polling booth difficult.

      This ‘moral high ground’ crap has got to stop!

      Are we morally superior as we watch hundreds of thousands of our children being born into poverty while the rich elite in the South of England steal our recourses?

      What’s morally superior about people who live in one of the wealthiest nations on earth queuing up at foodbanks.

      What’s moral about Scotland being the only democratic nation on earth that has a MSM that is hostile to it’s own population and is almost completely owned by people who are not Scottish.

      I will tell you something, the way the Tories are acting, if we want to hold on to our moral superiority we better hold on tight, because it’s the only thing we will have left to hold on to.

      Let’s get out of this stinking cesspit of a Union, let’s fight fire with fire.

      Let’s tell the Tories, the Tory owned MSM &the Tory owned Labour Party, that we will no longer put up with this shit.

      Let’s get this referendum to the centre of the Holyrood election manifesto, with a Scottish born Scots vote as well as genuinely disabled postal vote only franchise.

      Once we have our independence we can be all inclusive and open our arms to our English brothers and sisters, but right now we are in a war and to win a war you need to fight back.

    93. Macart says:

      Paul Kavanagh (WGD) has a powerful full page article in today’s National – ‘Cheers drown last chance of the union.’

      That one is a must read folks and I would suggest also that people who voted no but are now having their doubts should read it too. Your help is going to be needed to right this wrong and we can’t do it without you, but we can make it right.

      We can see an end to block votes barring progress in Scotland. We can see an end to vetos and imposed measures which almost all of Scotland rejected at the ballot. All you need do is direct the Scottish Government to act, or if they ask, grant them permission.

    94. Ken500 says:

      Some should ask John Redwood, Thatcher’s right hand man as they secretly and illegally took the equivalent of £Billions out of Scotland. How 3million unemployed and interest rates at 15% and Bank deregulation was fiscally responsible. In 1995, when Secretary of State for Wales. Redwood gave £100,000,000 of the Block Grant back to the Westminster treasury.

    95. Dav says:

      This is why I stopped paying my TV tax. I now watch everything on catchup in HD. Better quality, better choice and I can still legally watch everything on BBC and the commercial channels. Hit them in their pockets where it hurts.
      Stu – I would be happy to write a how-to guide for you.

    96. Ken500 says:

      The Universities have a responsiblity of who they are appointing, and how they take their academic responsibilities. Are they attending to their academic responsibilities, well researched? Or spending their time as puedo unelected politicians or broadcasters, canvassing against the Scottish taxpayers who pay their substantial salaries. How biased are Tompkins lectures? As an unelected Tory mouthpiece. So biased and stupid. Ignorant and arrogant. It’s incredible.

    97. Molly says:

      It’s not just the content of the Sarah Smith show it’s the format.

      It’s doesn’t work at any level

      If EVEL is to be introduced, wouldn’t it be great to have a proper discussion , which heaven above might actually inform the public what the implications are?

      Not a predictable boring BBC version of what ‘ the BBC ‘ thinks we should hear.

      Genuine question, if EVEL is introduced does that mean the ‘ books’ will be clear on the budget for England only or how are the new ‘ England only ‘ laws going to be financed ?

    98. Grouse Beater says:

      Patrick Rodin: the large number of English residents living here were able to stay loyal to Westminster and swing the vote against us.

      ‘British.’

      Cold post-Referendum research and analysis, and that’s how we should all approach this issue, discovered it was those of all sides who voted NO because they felt either British only, or British first and a definite Scottish second, or they are here studying under what they perceived as British generosity and didn’t want to lose their grants.

      Something to consider:
      https://wordpress.com/post/62730813/4315/

    99. Ken500 says:

      It’s like ‘the Emperors new clothes’. Tompkins is so biased he is falling over. Not a great stance for a credible academic.

    100. Grouse Beater says:

      What I don’t understand is, why we have a truly fantastic majority at Holyrood and yet we present a very tame set of policies for land ownership. Do we have forever to assume a one-step-at-a-time attitude?

    101. @Patrick Roden

      GTF the Daily Mail is missing you.

    102. @Patrick Roden

      GTF the Daily Mail is missing you.

    103. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Patrick Roden at 8.23

      There is no reliable evidence to support your assertion that English born residents cost us independence and continuous repetition of this unproved suspicion is dangerous and unhelpful.
      According to the posted figures quite enough of our own people didn’t vote YES to see us defeated whether English born people did or not.
      I know many English people who voted for us and I congratulate them. Now can we concentrate in convincing the hundreds of thousands of Scots who voted NO on the error of their ways

    104. Luigi says:

      Grouse Beater says:
      2 July, 2015 at 8:55 am

      What I don’t understand is, why we have a truly fantastic majority at Holyrood and yet we present a very tame set of policies for land ownership. Do we have forever to assume a one-step-at-a-time attitude?

      Patience, GB! We are getting there, we really are (cast your mind back 10 years to see how far we have come). It was never going to happen overnight, it’s like steering a constitutional supertanker, and we have to take the people with us – absolutely imperative. At the moment, it is 50:50, we need 60:40. IMO the gloves will come off very shortly, but we need to get the timing ight and we need to pick our fights carefully – otherwise we end up like BT and lose 20% of our support in two years. It’s coming.

    105. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Alastair Wright 7.32 When you have Stewart Maxwell asking Tomkins questions on Westminster Gov policies , it gives him credibility, as speaking with Authority of that Gov,another chance missed to put this man in his place.

      FFup of political niceties.

      And who pays, the air fare of the MPs ,to take part in this programme. The Tax Payer or BBC ?.

      Keep your eyes peeled on the expences claimed for the 1/7/15.

    106. Luigi says:

      The thing about constitutional supertankers is that, even though they move painfully slowly, when they finally get going, absolutely nothing can stop them. No MSM propaganda, no dirty tricks, no postal votes, no fear. It’s happening.

      “Steady as she goes, Mate!”

    107. Les wilson says:

      Patrick Roden says:

      Patrick, I largely agree with your comments. However it seems to me that we need good brains working on strategies that will deal with the BT style negatives thrown during Indy1. They will use all these again, and more.

      We need accurate answers to the currency issue, clearly how whatever we choose will work and how we would implement it and explain the benefits. Debunk clearly, the pension issues that people worry about. All the stuff thrown at us, must be shown as untrue propaganda, along with the proof.

      We need to speak very loudly about how we are being treated in Westminster, as you say, we need to fight fire with fire.
      Meticulous plans need made, and we need to use propaganda across all areas of the UK. We need to be well funded to do so, and better organised.

      We have played a fair game against a foe who has no morals, we need to highlight how they work,along with irrefutable proof, details needs to hit every house in Scotland. We need to show we are being insulted, we need to show we are being robbed. We need to get out of this “Union”.

    108. john king says:

      Luigi says
      ” IMO the gloves will come off very shortly,”

      Yep I’ve heard that before somewhere,
      now let me think?
      Oh aye the weeks before the referendud,
      we were going to see “the gloves coming off then” and what happened?
      nothing that’s what happened, we were waiting for the tsunami from the SNP and we got nothing!

    109. JLT says:

      @Patrick Roden

      If we have another vote and follow the example of the EU referendum franchise and only allow Scots born here who are still resident here to vote, we will be out of this stinking union, it’s as simple as that.

      To be honest, mate …I agree. From what I have read in the past, 52.7 per cent of native-born Scots voted Yes, while a massive 72.1 per cent of voters from England, Wales or Northern Ireland backed the Union (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/independence-referendum-figures-revealed-majority-5408163)

      That was where we lost the Referendum in votes. If we were to make the next Referendum a ‘Scots-Only’ then fair-do’s, it will be perceived as very unfair on the non-Scots who live here, but if Cameron and Co are about to set a precedent that only ‘Brits’ should vote in this EU Referendum, then it is a precedent that we can use the next time. Sure people will scream (a lot of Unionist Scots will for sure as they realise what will happen if such a move is allowed). We need to watch and learn from Westminster on how it conducts itself in the EU Referendum, for I now believe that is the only way we are going to win this; using highly-contentious political machinations. Trying to who everyone that we have ‘right’ on our side and ‘playing by the rules’ won’t work. If they are going to ‘cheat’, then we might have to do the same. After all, we have had no prizes or rewards for finishing 2nd in last years Referendum after fighting the ‘good clean fight’.

      So… for the moment, I agree with Patrick’s views, but until we see what is agreed in this EU Referendum. If it gets dirty, then I would be seriously consider in making the next Referendum a ‘Scots-Only’ vote.

    110. Grouse Beater says:

      “we need good brains working on strategies”

      To attain independence with a credible level of a majority in everybody’s eyes, we need to convince at least 10% of the population to stop voting against their interests.

    111. John Young says:

      Robert Peffers says 11.57pm- Thank you for your informative response to my earlier post.

    112. Dr Jim says:

      Evel

      I’ve always favoured the inclusive voting system for the

      Referendum we had here in Scotland
      I thought it was a fair system inasmuch as, live and work here you get to vote, obvious and reasonable

      But here’s the thing If Cameron and his Nasti party get away with this English votes for English laws thing in order to exclude Scots Welsh an Northern Irish MPs from voting

      This is playing into the hands of people in Scotland who only want Scots born to vote in Elections
      Now we know it’s not entirely the same thing when we’re talking about normal elections

      But from one point of view it makes the case for those who, in the next Independence Referendum wish to exclude all non born Scots and the thing is I can’t see the argument against that, I think it would be sad if it were to happen but what is the counter point of view for it

      Those who would argue Cameron’s doing it in England,( Goose and Gander )
      Scotland it is to be hoped would look at it in a more civilised way but when the Unionists constantly bleat on about the SNP employing the politics of grievance when it’s the Unionists themselves who create grievance in the extreme

      So who could blame anybody in Scotland for wanting to do the same thing in reverse

    113. JLT says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:

      There is no reliable evidence to support your assertion that English born residents cost us independence and continuous repetition of this unproved suspicion is dangerous and unhelpful.
      According to the posted figures quite enough of our own people didn’t vote YES to see us defeated whether English born people did or not.

      Understand what you are saying Dave, but according to polls and even the Brit-Nat mouth pieces such as the Daily Record (see my previous entry), it does appear that the ‘Non-Scots’ did vote overwhelmingly to remain with the Union. I know far more ‘Non-Scots’ who voted ‘No than those who voted ‘Yes’ and the reasons were simple; they didn’t want to vote against their own ‘home nation’, nor did they want to cut the ties with their families in other parts of the UK. Completely understandable. I would too if the roles were reversed.

      However, as said, I would wait and see how the rules of the EU Referendum turn out. I’m not denying anyone a vote in the next Scottish Referendum, but if it appears that we would be 70% down immediately from the ‘Non-Scots’ votes then the option to remove them altogether from the vote is an option I would consider. After all, you think Westminster is going to fight fair? It didn’t stop them bussing in people from down south to try and influence the vote up here. How do we know that that tactic didn’t persuade a percentage of people to vote ‘No’?

    114. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Patrick Roden 8.23 Have you ever heard of the English Scots for YES. Stop with the unfounded aspersion,s,you do little to convince people to support Independence.

      Loose LIPS lose votes, TIGHTEN YOURS.

    115. Tackety Beets says:

      @ Patrick Rodden @ 8.23AM

      Sorry Patrick,I usually read your posts & I appreciate your sentiments but its best you let that one rest.

      You keep bringing it up…. BACK UP for your assertion ?

      My experience is defo the opposite EVERYONE I know “not born here” and I’m talking Europeans,Welsh,Irish,English,Aussie , and NZ plus most of the Asian and Chineese folk etc did vote YES ….. we need to keep them ALL on-side.
      I bumped into a Dutch family the other day and the gents Yes badge was upside down and I made a quirky remark in jest and he very quickly put me straight about his YESS NESS !
      Believe me he was passionate !

      Lets not get all “Chewin the fat-esque” Good guy , good guy , W@nk ! etc
      Lets not forget how much $h!t and lies were being pedalled pre sept 18th.

      It is pointless,the blame game & singling out sections of the population.Our strength is in getting the message across to the majority, how they voted last time does not matter a fig !

      I second D M Hill

      Lets concentrate on our +ve message going forward.

    116. Joemcg says:

      Was curious if the Scots that are happy with non-scots deciding our destiny would vote no on say any future Catalonian independence ref. after having moved there and would think that was morally right or correct?

    117. Ken500 says:

      Just convince 5% more to vote for Independence, which Westminster is doing admirably. Demographic changes will take five years.

    118. Fireproofjim says:

      Tacketybeets
      Agreed. My Chinese neighbour told me he thought long and hard and voted Yes for his children’s future. He also said his teenage son was passionate Yes but too young to vote.

    119. MarkAustin says:

      Grouse Beater says:
      2 July, 2015 at 8:55 am

      What I don’t understand is, why we have a truly fantastic majority at Holyrood and yet we present a very tame set of policies for land ownership. Do we have forever to assume a one-step-at-a-time attitude?

      The simple answer is the European Convention on Human Rights, which protects property rights. Anything more than that proposed would almost certainly breach the Convention—which is currently enshrined in UK law.

      Paradoxically, if the Tories succeed in pulling us out, it would give Holyrood the green light for more radical measures.

    120. Nana Smith says:

      During the run up to the indyref, I met an English couple who had moved up to Tain in order to campaign for YES. They were the most vehement voices against a No vote and their loathing for better together was a joy to behold, and wow they were so knowledgable

      Some of the most ardent voices for NO were local people most of whom have quite comfortable lives and did’nt seem to care about the next generation.
      So all this talk of who should and should’nt vote gives me the dry boak.

    121. Joemcg says:

      Nana-sorry for being blunt but your argument gives me the dry boak. “I know blah blah who was the most ardent yes ever” heard it on here loads. I work in a place with over 300 staff and my friends and family included many English welsh and different nationalities and not ONE voting yes. So does that even it out a bit?

    122. Grouse Beater says:

      It is pointless,the blame game

      I know your remark isn’t addressed to me, but …

      ‘We blame’ is not how university researchers titled their careful research and findings – let’s not have one morality for posters, another for university staff? As I said earlier, wiser to avoid knee jerk responses and look at it coldly and analytically.

    123. JLT says:

      Right …I can see this turning into a slanging match if we are not careful.

      Guys …right now, I, Patrick and probably even a couple others are not ‘demanding’ for ‘Non-Scots’ to be removed from the next Referendum vote. What we are stating is that through various factors, many voted ‘No’ not on the basis of what the ‘Yes’ campaign proposed, but through other factors; a sense of loyalty to the UK for letting them work here, especially if they came from outside of the EU; and primarily for remaining closer to their families in the other home nations. Both reasons understandable.

      But lets be honest. The vast majority of ‘Non-Scots’ did vote No. If they had voted overwhelmingly ‘Yes’, we would not be having this discussion. I’m not blaming them for I understand fully the reasons why they voted ‘No’.

      Can that view be changed? Yes, of course it can. I do believe if the EU Referendum turns very nasty, then many would swap over to a ‘Yes’ vote …but it would need the right circumstances and the right reasons to do so.

      I’m not denying anyone a vote in the next referendum, but I do agree with Patrick that if we fought ‘dirty’ (for Westminster surely will), then yes, I think we would get the result that we want. But, you go with the majority, and if we decide to retain full voting rights for everyone in Scotland then so be it. That’s democracy.

    124. Fiona says:

      wiser to avoid knee jerk responses and look at it coldly and analytically.

      Unless I misunderstand your point this is not a good idea

      The franchise was right as a matter of principle. If you abandon principle for electoral advantage you end up being the labour party

    125. Grouse Beater says:

      Just convince 5% more to vote for Independence

      I disagree. At least 10%.

      It is not only a matter of arithmetic – it’s those who say okay now but lose confidence on the day and vote No, and those who don’t vote at all of whom a good many were the poor and the unemployed Scot.

      On top of which, a mere 51% for independence leaves a nation divided.

      It has to be over 60% – almost all Scots and a good many English residents, to make continued antagonism to full autonomy futile and against the wishes of the majority.

    126. thomaspotter2014 says:

      No change there then apart from the fact there was usually zero SNP representation.

      We’re gonna have to do things from the bottom up-the only way and it’s worked great in the very recent past.

      There will be no change from any of the MSN to align with the new status quo because in their worldview there is no change.

      That in itself is a complete scandal but BTUKOK Team expect it’ll all blow over and be back to normal in no time at all.

      UN and EU laws for nation states should be clarified, questioned and applied.

      What’s going on here in good old Britain is certainly NOT legal.

      We cannot and should not put up with this mockery of democracy.

      Time to take the gloves off Nicola and the 56.

      Scotland is watching this farce.

    127. Haggis Hunter says:

      Its all about the LabServativeDem and BBC STV Unionist media party

    128. Joemcg says:

      JLT-I totally agree with you but in my opinion an emotive subject like the independence of a nation should not be decided by different nationalities to that nation. Nothing I say is going to alter the rules so pointless me arguing about it!

    129. Valerie says:

      Patrick Harvies getting a good kicking, as folks on Indy pages share his status. I’ve had a lot of respect for him but very disappointed in his choice of words saying ‘SNP types’ annoyed at Greens voting against FFA in HoC, thereby siding with Tories in WM.

      Patrick and Greens entitled to hold whatever view they like, but describing those querying their stance as SNP types has lost him a lot is support.

      Secondly, whilst folk were annoyed, they also mentioned there is a Green in Highland who is pro fracking!??? Figure that one out.

    130. Grouse Beater says:

      Boris: ‘Scotland in crisis’

      For over 300 years that has always been the standard colonial text:

      ‘Scotland is bankrupt’, Daniel Defoe, 1706.
      ‘Scotland was bankrupt’, Ian Hislop, 2014.
      And all enemies of democracy in between.

    131. Listening to Good Morning Scotland BBC Radio,

      Haley Miller talking to a couple of Greeks living in Scotland,

      Both Greeks defiant against the EU pressure/blackmail/scare stories,they both blame the current problems on `The Triangle of Sin`

      Ruling political parties,all hues,
      The Mass Media,
      Banks/ Big business,

      Greek Big business and Banks that control Politics and Media have been syphoning Billions out of the country for 40 years.

      The Bankers,Big business will get to keep the money while to pay for it the poor and working class will have to endure years of debilitating Austerity.

      Sound familiar.

    132. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      JLT at 9.33

      Unless virtually every English born person voted NO the 400,000 NO majority was because not enough Scots voted YES.

      My own experience (and this is a generalisation only) was that Tory inclined English folk in Scotland tended to NO and Labour inclined ones tended towards YES. A bit like the rest of Scotland actually.

    133. Valerie says:

      Well, it is related to the article.

      £150m shortfall in licence income, means BBC have to axe 1000 jobs.

      I’m sure we all have our suggestions about cutting out dead wood!

    134. galamcennalath says:

      Ken500 says:
      “Just convince 5% more to vote for Independence, which Westminster is doing admirably. Demographic changes will take five years.”

      Demographic changes may be more effective than you suggest. Each year, approximately 1.5% of the electorate disappear off the top of the age spectrum to be be replaced by approx 1.5% at the youthful end. Three quarters of old people voted No, three quarters of the young voted Yes. That’s about ~ 1% reduction in Nos and ~ 1% increase in Yes. 2% swing per annum.

      So you are right is saying five years should change 45:55 into 55:45 on demographics alone.

      However polls have consistently said we are already at 50:50.

      Education of No voters is the biggy. As you also say, “convince 5% more”. Once a person has seen beyond the MSM, the BBC and Unionist spin they will never put their brain back in the sealed box.

      Demographics + WM behaviour + education/conversion = Indyref2 & 60:40 in 2-3 years

    135. Dr Jim says:

      Sorry for coming on again about another subject
      But I’m a bit chuffed having received an email this morning from the Scottish Government saying they have accepted my proposals for UK-EU Referendum reform on Fishing and Agriculture in Scotland and are using my Contribution as part of their own proposals

      I just had to blab to somebody, a small thing but made me feel useful, and that’s the measure of the SNP when a nobody like me can be part of the process

      If you’ve got an Idea write to them, if I can, everybody can and I’m no Constitutional Expert or genius clever clogs

    136. Grouse Beater says:

      Fiona: The franchise was right as a matter of principle.

      You miss the point; university researchers did not say, we can’t and won’t look into the referendum result because it’s too ethnic an issue. Had they done that we would not know which Scots voted No and why, as well as all the others.

      If, as it appears, a majority of English voted No we need to know that and how best to convince them to see justice, the percentage of them, that is, who can be swayed next time around, (many will never vote Yes because it’s not in their interests to do so) plus we need to convince Scots who voted No, otherwise forget another Referendum, the result will be the same.

      https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2015/04/06/scottish-english-and-neo-democracy/

    137. It’s not only us who are subject to B.B.C bias. Whilst changing channel yesterday evening, I chanced upon the programme, “Hard Talk”, hosted by one Stephen Sackur, who was giving a Greek Government Minister the treatment usually reserved for supporters of Scottish independence. Interuptions, talking over, shouting him down, it was all there, and generally acting as a spokesperson for the E.U, the E.C.B, and the I.M.F. I’m the first to admit that I don’t understand all the ins and outs of the situation in Greece, but if that interview is typical of the B.B.C attitude towards the present Greek Government, then they must be doing something right, and hopefully, trying to help their ain folk.

    138. ronnie anderson says:

      @ joemcg Enough with the Negatives as in previous threads,your are on devicive issues NOT on INCLUSION.

      People take note, we dont need Devicive Trolls.

    139. Jim Mitchell says:

      Auld habits die hard, especially bad ones!

    140. Hamish100 says:

      More BBC cuts on the way.

      Am I upset? No not really. Let’s scrap Call Kaye for starters. This morning we had several callers on from a right wing protest group attacking the Scots Government. One caller a foster carer constantly interrupted by Adams because he was trying to say something that was against the presumed wisdom of Pacific Quay.

    141. Ken500 says:

      The ACC Green who colluded with the Unionists refuses a Gift of £80Million to pedestrianise the City. (Pedestrianisation a Green policy), spending £33Million vandalising an Art Gallery. Wasting £Millions building a carbuncle in the City centre. (against ‘Green’ policies). People are protesting on the streets. A Green, masquerading as a LibDem stopped the AWPR for ten years causing traffic chaos and adding 2hrs on to people’s working day. Colluding and, secretly, financed by landowners. Blocked the expansion of the airport for more regional flights. Campaigned against the Trump Develop wasting £Million of taxpayers money. The Greens are worse than LibDem liars.

    142. heedtracker says:

      Our imperial masters are banning over million people from voting on Brexit. This is all merely UKOK politicking by exact same rule Britannia shitheads that pumped Project Fear into their Scotland region.

      Did it work in the long view? A parochial, insular and widely greedy UKOK elite are clinging on but their days are numbered in Scotland. Look at that absurd BBC debate last night, a Tory academic UKOK henchman tub thumping his shyste and propping up 2 dim pot bellied unionist con men, all held together by the giant BBC propaganda machine in Pacific Quay. It’s not English voters that are stopping Indy.

      What a mess

    143. Grouse Beater says:

      Professor Adam Tomkins ‘adviser’ to the Tory party in Scotland, (all one of him) proxy MP for media interviews?

      Next meeting I have I’ll send my local taxi driver to speak on my behalf. He knows a lot about the world, and has some strong views on Scottish politics.

    144. Proud Cybernat says:

      The BBC/Unionists need a 4 to 1 line-up on these programmes against the SNP. Let’s face it, any unionist one-o-one with any SNP speaker will be handed their erse on a plate. (Remember “Help me, Rhona”?) A 4 to 1 line-up is the only way the Unionists feel they have any chance to get the better of the single Indy speaker and it is usually done by resorting to the shouty, shouty, shouty but nae substance tactic.

      Pathetic really.

    145. ronnie anderson says:

      As to my post at 10.23am Alex Salmond ( & the breaching of Purdah Rules by Cameron / McPherson ect ect).

      Why O Why didnt the SNP make a Legal Challenge in the High Court ( Scottish)?.

    146. Grouse Beater says:

      Alex: I chanced upon the [BBC] programme, “Hard Talk”, hosted by one Stephen Sackur, who was giving a Greek Government Minister the treatment usually reserved for supporters of Scottish independence.

      Precisely. How dare the masses rebel!

      Okay, Wingers – finished morning’s many admin letters – off to hard physical graft rest of day.

    147. Clootie says:

      Patrick Roden says:
      2 July, 2015 at 8:23 am

      Strange logic?

      It is long established that in a negative versus negative campaign then the most negative wins AND it pisses of the vast majority of the general public who don’t follow politics to the same extent as us.

      Trying to spin unionist lies as the fault of the SNP is doing their work for them.

    148. Mealer says:

      Gala mcennalath 10.41,
      Aye.Remember,too,that when Mr Cameron said he would fight with every fibre of his being to save the union they had a massive lead in the polls.I personally think that if we ever reach 60:40 in the polls,English politicians will accept the games up and support an orderly and amicable end to the treaty of union,thus saving face and avoiding being the losers in a no hope campaign.The media will follow a similair stance.We are a long way from that position at the moment,though.”Its going to happen anyway so we might as well crack on with it now” is a solid,powerful line for us to use.

    149. yerkitbreeks says:

      Haven’t checked the site for a bit and caught up on some of Scotland 2015 – your piece, as many previous ones, sums up exactly how many of us feel about the BBC.

      They seemed to have learnt nothing. It’s time we had an update on the proportion of Scots paying the licence fee, since I suspect it would be salutary.

    150. Mealer says:

      Ronnie Anderson 10.57
      Because we didn’t want to be seen as greetin’ faced losers.We wanted to keep positive moving forward.

    151. heedtracker says:

      Look at how great British neo fascism goes after bally foreigner types.

      https://archive.is/7PGPm

    152. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Hamish100 Awe didums, if everybody in Scotland stopped paying the Licence Fee, they would shutup shop a lot quiker.

    153. bugsbunny says:

      To Ken McColl@10.20pm,

      Sarah Smith is there because her Daddy, St. John of Iona, was the late great darling leader of the Labour Party, pre Blair.

      The very fact he hated the SNP and the very idea of Scottish Independence doesn’t stop some, including Nationalists, bleating on about “The best Prime Minister we never had”, hmmph. He was as Anti Scottish as Donald Dewar, another establishment mouthpiece. And therein lies the answer to your question. Sarah Smith, Establishment mouthpiece, Unionist mouthpiece, Labour mouthpiece.
      And what a mouthy mouthpiece she is. SNPBAD, LABOURGOOD.

      Stephen.

    154. Fred says:

      I do wish folk would stop harping on endlessly about the referendum and returning to the subject like dogs to their vomit. The referendum is history, if this, if that & if the next thing. If yer auntie had baws she’d be yer uncle.

      We have a future to look forward to & time is on our side. As for Sarah Smith, what’s she doing on the box, obviously it’s due to the influence of that father who was a second division politician who just never lived to prove it.

    155. Graeme Doig says:

      Dr Jim

      Good for you mister. Always enjoy your posts and do actually consider you smarter than the average (me) 😉

    156. mogabee says:

      Dear Dr Jim…go to the top of the class at once! 😀

    157. Joemcg says:

      Fair enough Ronnie. If your opinion differs from mine that automatically makes me a troll. So be it.

    158. Mealer says:

      Further to my post at 11.09 I’d like to add that this holds true,I think,for English born people living in Scotland.For many,upto the referendum the idea of independence seemed preposterous.If it increasingly seems inevitable they’re more likely to decide to embrace it rather than shun it.Its their country.Their future.
      In Indyref 1,when Mr Cameron summoned Mr ASDA to Downing Street Mr ASDA obliged.If most of his customers in Scotland support a YES vote next time round and Westminster is at best lukewarm to continuing union,he isn’t going to trot along to the Orange Order for instructions.The whole game has changed.

    159. G H Graham says:

      The BBC is to cut up to 1,000 jobs, including many managerial roles, because of a £150 million shortfall in its licence fee income.

      Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-33363225

      ==================================================================

      Interestingly, BBC director general Tony Hall explains that the cost cutting is in response to various operational & decision making complexities. But offers not a single comment on why more than 1 million people have chosen to stop paying the TV License Fee.

      Meanwhile, the BBC Trust continues to puff fine sounding rhetoric such as …

      * Make the most creative and distinctive output
      * Innovate online to create a more personal BBC
      * Serve all audiences
      * Improve value for money through a simpler, more efficient, and more open BBC

      Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctrust/

      Top Tip, Tony Hall; the clue to some of the loss of license fee income is in the third bullet point above.

      The Trust will no doubt whine at Westminster about how it needs to raise the TV tax to maintain the BBC’s income, but if that were to happen, it will likely cause even more people to cancel their TV License.

      So, it does look like the decision by some of us to stop funding this corrupt institution is starting to have an economic impact.

      Perhaps some of those who will be, no longer employed by the State Broadcaster for British Propaganda, can find temporary work at The Daily Record? Apparently there is the matter of a Vow that remains to be implemented.

    160. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Dr Jim Congratulations it must be a Listening Gov.

    161. DerekM says:

      quite a divisive subject who gets to vote in the next indyref,i would go with the same as before but that might be impossible if England goes down the route of EVEL,as far as i am concerned if they remove us from participation from their parliament through unjust legislation then i can see no way we can allow English people to participate in a vote on a constitutional Scottish referendum like last time regardless if they are yes or no.

      as for everybody else living and working in Scotland (the rest of the world)they should get a vote,so sorry English people but dont blame us blame westminster they are the ones removing your right to participate in our indyrefs but i do hope you all still come to the party its going to be even better than last time 🙂

      We did not set the precedence they have and two can play at that game.

    162. Ken500 says:

      English Votes on English Laws

      The cracks start to appear. Tories in disarray. Major described them as ‘Bastards’.

    163. X_Sticks says:

      @Ronnie (the Aberdeen one 🙂 )

      Thanks for the Decoding Daesh article – very enlightening.

      I wish folk would stop trying to analyse the indyref. We lost. End of. No point in trying to apportion blame for why we lost. Leave it and move on. We can’t change the past but we CAN change the future. Holyrood 2016 should be our first point of focus. Let’s get out there and wipe out the unionists at Holyrood. Much more productive.

    164. heedtracker says:

      Grouse Beater says:
      2 July, 2015 at 10:53 am
      Professor Adam Tomkins ‘adviser’ to the Tory party in Scotland.

      Prof T’s a unionist henchman, nothing more, nothing less. Henchman are a necessary requirement in a culture that dominates socio-economically the way England dominates Scotland. Their problems really begin when domination is challenged.

      Testing times ahead for UKOK henchman like Prof T in Scotland.

    165. Graeme Doig says:

      Amazing how many English folk actually voted Yes really.

      We must be onto something here. Lets just keep focused on what we’ve been doing. It seems to be working.

    166. Ok, ok, can we stop even talking about whether English born voters in Scotland should vote in indyref2? Of course they should, as should French born, Swiss, Aussie, Lithuanian, American, Martian… – anyone who is registered to vote in an election should be eligible to vote in indyref2.

      I’m English, lived here for over 30 years and I think Scotland should be independent? Why? My reasons are laid out at the link under my name. That I am English is completely and utterly irrelevant.

      At one point in the ‘Yes” campaign I found myself knocking on the doors with a Tory voting Irishman (I’m more Green inclined); and arguments of Scottish Nationalism were easily demolished as soon as we opened our mouths.

      The arguments for ‘Yes’ are not based on where the voter was born: they are what are best for Scotland and the people who live here – just keep working away at the positive reasons.

    167. Bugger; no edit. I did read it again, but even so. The sentence should read:

      I think Scotland should be independent. Full stop. No question mark.

    168. scott says:

      Alistair Carmichael: Court of Session to hear legal challenge

      Why is this man who is under investigation and we know he lied allowed on BBC political program to spout his rubbish.
      I hope the people of Orkney and Shetland win their case and get him booted out.

    169. Black Joan says:

      More than one million fewer households with TV than the BBC predicted in 2011. And how many of those households are in Scotland? Can BBC blah-blah tell us? Can all those highly-paid managers and bosses detect some reason for all the cancellations? Apparently not.

    170. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Mealer 11.15 We need to attack at every oppotunity offorded to us, to Show Westminster for what it is (Undemocratic / Unchanging / Unaffordable).

      I dont think thats greetin.

      Remember People of Orkney/Shetland & US didnt except LIES during Purdah,it must be because WE dont observe Political Niceties, we,re just People who expect a fair crack of the whip (sheesh ah hope Paula Rose isnae oan line the noo).

    171. Macnakamura says:

      Valerie says:
      2 July, 2015 at 10:39 am
      Well, it is related to the article.

      £150m shortfall in licence income, means BBC have to axe 1000 jobs.

      I’m sure we all have our suggestions about cutting out dead wood!

      ;;;;;;;;,,,

      Employment and Equal Opps legislation would prevent a personalised approach.
      Non discriminatory Criteria have to be set and adhered to.

      For example, any employee who has a superfluous vowel in his her name.

    172. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

      For those who haven’t done so yet, here’s how to stop funding westminsters TV Tax and save hundreds of pounds every year by watching online. 🙂

      http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/tv-licence

    173. David McDowell says:

      GH Graham @ 12:42am – thanks for that.

      BBC: “The BBC is to cut 1,000 jobs because of a £150m budget gap in its licence fee income.”

      Those who argued the only way to damage the BBC is to hit them in the pocket were right all along.
      We must stop the endless political manipulation of public perceptions as highlighted by this Wings article.
      People need follow GH Graham’s advice (see post at 12:42am above):
      Never write to the TV Licensing Authority.
      Never give them your name.
      Simply stop paying.
      If they pursue you, issue a Withdrawal of Access Notice as outlined by GH Graham.

      No public burning of TV licences.
      No public protests.
      No crowdfunding campaigns.

      JUST OLD-FASHIONED PEACEFUL NON-COMPLIANCE!

      ALL TRUE DEMOCRATS MUST OPPOSE THIS FASCIST LICENCE FEE SYSTEM THAT USES A MANDATORY TAX TO FUND POLITICAL PROPAGANDA.

      THIS IS THE ONLY WAY FORWARD.

      If enough of us do this it will hit BBC Scotland hard and they will not be able to go on ignoring our requests for truly impartial political coverage.

    174. Iain More says:

      Well the Tory/Brit Nat Alliance shenanigans over the Scotland Bill though fairly well covered in the National went totally unreported on last evening on STV Aberdeen. The bias extends just as much to STV, BBC isn’t alone in its passion and undying love for our Brit Nat criminal and sleazy rulers.

    175. A MacRitchie says:

      Porki Murray

      I see the new hero of SLAB is taking part. Wee Porki is full of self importance (crap) because he’s still got a job. He makes Smurphy look as if he was on a low trough diet. So no doubt the little glob of tuberculosis sputum we be given the chance to repeat his catch phrase on the SlabBC. We want to pool and share our resources, pool and share our resources, pool and share our resources, pool and share our resources pool and share our resources………. Porki your a cruddy little scum ball with all the innate love ability of an itchy verruca.

    176. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Anent BBC Scotland’s treatment of the SNP and pro-Independence parties.

      Yesterday, Nicola Sturgeon was announced as winner of BBC Woman’s Hour’s Power List: ie, the most-powerful woman in the UK.

      Given this award was given by an important BBC programme, I would have expected BBC Scotland to have given it some prominence. I might have missed it, but, I didn’t catch a mention of it on Reporting Scotland last night, for instance.

      This morning I had a look on the BBC Scotland/news page on the BBC website: nothing. Eventually, by using the site search function I found the story, very prominently displayed, on the Woman’s Hour website. There is no link from BBC Scotland to the Woman’s Hour site.

      If BBC Glasgow can manage to ignore a prestigious award, sponsored by BBC London, and won by our First Minister, it tells us all we need to know as to BBC impartiality and balance, as practiced at Pacific Quay.

    177. Karmanaut says:

      I voted Yes. I knocked the doors and delivered flyers and postered towns and all that. I want independence more than anything.

      However, if we had another indyref that excluded people who were born in England (or anywhere else for that matter) from voting, I’d vote No.

      That’s not the Scotland I want to live in.

      If you choose to live in Scotland, then you are a Scot, and you should have the same rights as me. Where you happen to have been born is irrelevant.

    178. Phil Robertson says:

      “You are aware of the general election results Phil?
      There is ONE major party in Scotland!”

      Indeed I am. The parties were the four that polled the highest number of votes in that election. (That the outcome was distorted by 50% of the votes gaining 90+% of the seats is another matter.) And if there were to be a fifth seat at the table, the bad news is that UKIP outpolled the Greens.

      You’d like a one party state, I assume.

    179. Chic McGregor says:

      Pretendy broadcasters with pretendy jobs in a pretendy democracy.

      Reality? They can’t cop with reality.

    180. Petra says:

      @ Tackety Beets says at 9:43 am ”My experience is defo the opposite EVERYONE I know “not born here” and I’m talking Europeans, Welsh, Irish, English, Aussie and NZ plus most of the Asian and Chinese folk etc did vote YES ….. we need to keep them ALL on-side.”

      In the main you’re right Tackety Beets. People who were born outside of the UK but had chosen to relocate to Scotland were more inclined to vote YES. However nearly 75% of individuals who had relocated to Scotland from other parts of the UK, (over 400,000 based on the 2011 census) voted NO. This figure of at least 300,000 NO voters (as many more rUK people moved here over the 3 years to 2014) shifted the vote from YES to NO. Research findings bear that out.

      Gordon MacIntyre – Kemp, Business for Scotland, in discussing the EU Referendum has also pointed out that ‘had non Scots-born residents been excluded in the same way (voting in the Referendum) YES would have won.

      As to older No voting residents passing away well that’s sadly correct but as they do so more and more elderly rUK residents are choosing to relocate to Scotland.

      Like others on here I know many English, Welsh and N Irish people (and folks from abroad) who voted YES but they account for a handful of the over 300,000 who voted NO.

      I’m sure the Scottish Government wont change their views on who should vote or not. However addressing this issue and analysing the statistics isn’t about being divisive. It’s about being sensible, garnering facts and establishing a baseline to work from. Research findings highlighted that the better off voted NO (no doubt Scots born and rUK) whereas the less well off voted YES and I would imagine that in relation to the latter this will not change due to forthcoming further austerity cuts.

      Many of the individuals from rUK that voted NO are in the main better off. They’ll not be too bothered about benefits being slashed and so on …generalising. That would tell me that our focus re. billboards, canvassing and so on should zero in on particular areas and address the issues that I found seemed to concern them most such as Defence and the economy. It will be a challenge however as it’s very difficult to change someones mindset. As I see it if I moved to Wales, England or N Ireland my allegiance would always be to Scotland.

      And of course an at least 2 year, better still a 5 year residency limit, would help as would a ban on holiday home owners being allowed to vote. The Scottish Government may take these points into consideration next time round.

    181. handclapping says:

      As an English can I just point out how disappointing it is that those calling for the English born to be outlawed are using the English legal concept of nationality by place, who’s serf are you, instead of the Scottish concept of nationality by parentage and choice.

    182. JLT says:

      Joe / Ronnie / Patrick / Others

      Look …no one here is a troll. I’ve met some of you, and to be honest, you ‘re all down-to-earth guys and gals. At the end of the day, we are all aiming for the same thing, and that is independence.

      When we all take a step back from each other, differences will appear. I agree with Patrick and Joe on one train of thought, but will also disagree with them on others. That’s human nature.

      A lot of people may not like the thought of a ‘Scots-Only’ vote (I don’t plan for it, but I do understand the theory if it makes us win. Politics is dirty after all), but we need to be careful of name-calling each other or taking a possible moral high ground here on who is right or wrong over a ‘perception’ or ‘idea’.

      One thing to remember. We need the Tories to cut loose here. We need them to be vicious. We need it to happen. And it will. 100,000’s of people if not a million will be badly affected over these next 5 years. We hope that these cuts will push people towards ‘Yes’. Let’s not lie here; we want this to happen if we wish to achieve our goal. Pointing out ‘the vow’ or the vote about not making Holyrood permanent is not going to make folk vote ‘Yes’. Only the Tories with their vicious ideology, their anti-EU stance and the money being pumped into London is going to make people vote ‘Yes’.

      Now …I said ‘We need it to happen’. Now …does that make me a bad person for thinking that? Because simply put, that is the only way you are going to get independence. If the Tories became all nice and cuddly and decided to really care for us, then the idea of independence is dead. The Union will prevail.

      This ties in with an imagined argument by the philosopher, Plato which he discusses the moral conundrum of ‘courage’ in his book ‘Laches’. Before I state the idea of his argument (or conundrum), I point out immediately that I take no sides, nor point fingers. This is just a philosophical argument in which we ask ourselves, ‘what is the correct answer?’

      And here it is…

      For Scottish Independence, we have 2 choices.

      1. We gain Independence by willing the Tories to be so vicious that people suffer badly under their austerity. Their pain under these cuts is immense. The people move to the ‘Yes’ camp but only after great suffering.

      2. We avoid the worst of these cuts by deciding to have a quick Referendum with a ‘Scots-Only’ vote. This brings victory to ‘Yes’ without people suffering?

      So… as you can see, two situations with 2 moral questions. Let the people suffer (which is likely to happen in reality at the moment) or we cut a portion of the population out from the vote but avoid great hardship in the process.

      The point is, there is no winner in matters such as this. Politics is a dirty game. We all know this. If someone states an ‘idea’, we need to be careful in our condemnation of them. Taking a possible moral high ground while we condemn the Tories and their policies, and yet, quietly smile when these policies are implemented is a tricky moral argument. Personally, we need the Tories to cut loose and therefore people will suffer. Does that make me a bad person. Well, Patrick stated an idea this morning. He’s neither right nor wrong, but we need to be careful in criticising …simply put; there are no easy arguments, or paths to independence.

    183. Desimond says:

      They dont know how to do anything different. Doomed to repeat the same cycle of self destruction. the Media and Scottish Unionist parties.

      Laughed when out for a drink yesterday. Talking about changing politicla landscape and I asked my mate “Do you even know a Labour voter these days?” and there was a very long pause before the conversation moved onto something else. 10 mins later my mate suddenly shouts “MY COUSIN!” and then shakes his head in shame.

    184. David McDowell says:

      C’mon folks.
      It’s time to do something about this BBC Scotland propaganda problem.
      What is the point of constantly complaining when we know they will just ignore us?
      We have seen that all we can look forward to is five or maybe ten years of being sidelined and attacked by a Tory government.
      All we have left is peaceful non-compliance.

    185. Blair paterson says:

      Ihave said it before the Scottish government is not using its power the way it should it should be taking the bbc to court for fraud and lies bit as usual they they take what is thrown at them I no longer blame the bbc they are doing what they do to the S.N.P.with impuity I now blame the,S.N.P.for this state of affairs they allow the truth to buried in an unmarked grave

    186. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “This is why I stopped paying my TV tax. I now watch everything on catchup in HD. Better quality, better choice and I can still legally watch everything on BBC and the commercial channels. Hit them in their pockets where it hurts.
      Stu – I would be happy to write a how-to guide for you.”

      We pretty much already did that:

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/enough-is-enough/

    187. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

      Apologies to Stu as I should have remembered to repost a link to his guide too.

      Glad he has done so himself. 🙂

      No harm in having multiple sources showing people how to save money and stop paying westminster’s TV Tax.

    188. Robert Peffers says:

      @Sassenach says: 2 July, 2015 at 12:14 am:

      “Sarah Smith is now so blatantly pro Labour, fawning over Murray as if he were leader of a strong party, that I gave up very quickly. It was obviously going to be 4 against 1 from the start.”

      We mostly all knew that would be the case when they told us she had been shipped in to front the show, Sassenach.

      “I’m not sure it’s any longer a good idea for the SNP to actually take part in these debates …”

      We mostly all know that, hard as it is to bear, they must go on appearing.
      Every time such abuse is carried out by the media they take a hit as people get turned off and then turn off for good. I’m just reading that the BBC are to cut another 1,000 jobs because of a £150 million gap in the licence fee income with ever more households stopping paying the licence fee. Tony Hall also says there will be another £50m of cuts to come,

      This is the same effects as has seen the Labour and LibDem vote share slipping away from them. The Scots voters have latched onto the media and Unionist constant attacks and are deserting both the unionist parties and their media attack dogs – both electronic and dead tree.

      To paraphrase – just grit your teeth, lie back and enjoy it, and think of Scotland’s independence.

    189. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ian Brotherhood says: 2 July, 2015 at 12:27 am:

      “You can’t devote your full attention to this cause (or anything else for that matter), if you’re being hassled.

      Please, please, just ignore the bastards – they are not worth worrying about.”

      Och! Ian, I’m neither worried nor hassled. I’ve been taking this flack since I was a wee schoolboy, way back in 1946. Back then when you mentioned either SNP or Scottish independence you mostly got blank looks and either of the two expressions, “Whit”? or “Wha?”

      I stopped being bothered about it long before a
      I was able to actually vote. Taking the insults, slights and deliberate distortions and, just occasionally, taking a swipe back at them has been a big part of the never ending fight. Often the swipes are by way of exposing either undercover agents of the Union or at least at a misled switherer.

    190. MolliBlum says:

      @Patrick Roden (08:23)

      I appreciate your passion, but I disagree with your call for “a Scottish born Scots vote”.

      The franchise was the right one: all those who live and work here should get the vote. It shouldn’t be about ethnicity. And that isn’t about “the moral high ground crap” as you put it. It’s about being able to vote to determine how things are in the place you have made your home.

      I campaigned side by side with some wonderful people from the “English Scots for Yes” group.

      Admittedly, I did also meet quite a few English people who were committed to a No vote – but they were, for the most part, people who had moved here only recently and didn’t really have a full grasp of the situation beyond what they had been fed by the msm.

      I’m also very sorry to say that some of my neighbours and friends from other EU countries who were otherwise very supportive of independence, chose not to vote because they felt it was morally wrong and that it should be up to the Scots themselves to decide.

      Just think of all the groups: Polish for Yes, EU Citizens for an Independent Scotland, Asian Scots for Yes, Oui Ecosse… and many, many more who supported us all the way.

      On the other hand, I can think of quite a few family members and neighbours, Scots through and through, who swallowed the BetterTogether bait hook line and sinker.

      So, I’d definitely want to stay with the same franchise in any future referendum. I’ve promised myself I’ll just have to try even harder next time to explain what’s at stake and why those who have chosen to make their lives here should vote Yes.

    191. Petra says:

      The BBCs Union Propaganda Machine in action. Long term objective maintain the Union at any cost. Daily short term aim undermine the SNP and Independence cause at every turn.

      The BBC for obvious reasons cant keep using presenters like Andrew Neil to demolish the SNP. That would be seen to be far too blatant, so they have radio call-ins where they can cut you off or decide who to put on a television panel to get the greatest effect: promote their Union agenda: Three against one or four against one if you count their politically biased presenters.

      SNP MPs are now in a more powerful position so they should start calling the shots and turn the tables on the BBC by picking and choosing which programmes to appear on, for example Dimblebys Question Time (yes) and Sarah Smiths show (no). This way they can’t be accused of running scared of the BBC and publicly outed as not being able to face the general public. People like Sarah Smith may also get the message especially if she’s left with a bunch of bores spouting the same old guff.

      It’s also high time that some of our SNP MPs actually came out and mentioned the word ‘bias’ when on air, such as Tasmina on last weeks Daily Politics show ”aren’t you showing real bias towards the SNP Andrew”, backed up with some statistics / facts.

      Youtube is chock full of videos of the BBC showing bias towards individuals and groups of people. So much so you’d think they’d be embarrassed, better still have sorted themselves out long before now. It’s days are numbered, like the archaic Union and House of Lords, and not contributing financially to propping up an establishment that’s dragging us down seems to be fairly logical … some advice on this site.

      I know that many people, like myself and Cadogan last night, continue to complain to them but we need hundreds if not thousands of people to do this on a regular basis. We have over 100,000 SNP members and hundreds of thousands of supporters. If a fraction of this number would complain constantly we might just get somewhere. As an example I, and a number of others, have been complaining constantly to STV and there seems to have been a shift in relation to their reporting of Scottish affairs (might have nothing to do with us at all of course).

      Anyway whatever the case we should think of having a rally at PQ if they don’t devolve broadcasting to Scotland (or if it’s clear that they wont before the process has been finalised). It would also be an opportunity for us to get our message / s across if we each carried a statement placard to the effect e.g. ‘Do you know or What they’re not telling you’ …. our Parliament is not permanent, McCrone, Stolen Seas, list of our resources, Westminster blocked broadcasting being devolved to Scotland, One Tory is running Scotland and so on.

      Tommy Sheridan Sticks it to BBC over Bias Coverage

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekWWfUAtcMY

      BBC Bias against Scottish independence on Russia Today news channel

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS6NPj5r__E

      Scottish Referendum – BBC Media Bias and Lies

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzfSsd8hKtY

      BBC Bias Against Scottish Independence

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TZpu51A_GU

    192. McBoxheid says:

      Lets look at the credibility of the Westminster 3.

      Murray:
      The guy only just got elected after a very late in the day smear campaign against the SNP candidate concerning something he said, taken out of contest and allowed to go unsatisfactorily resolved at FMQT. Dugdale was way out of order and never came back to reject the behaviour of her own party members.

      Carmichael:
      A man who admits lying and leaking a memo only after it was obviously coming to light and STILL did’nt step down.

      Mundell:
      A man that doesn’t recognise the sovereignty of Scotland.
      Just how deep does the Frenchgate leak go? Does he seriously believe that anyone in Scotland thinks he new nothing? Is his reelection just as fraudulent as Carmichael’s?

      All 3 also had the full backing of the BBC and MSM right up to the election. Where were the investegative journalists looking into possible electoral fraud/dirty tricks? Right behind the Union!

      The problem is, all three Unionist parties are represented whether we like it or not. We (the people of Scotland) have not yet been successful in getting any of them kicked out of office. Therein lies the problem. They still have legitimacy, no matter how tenuous.

      With the farce that is democracy in Westminster, soon to have EVEL to make sure we have even less of a say, Labour backing the Tories, Unionist MPs not bothering to turn up for key constitutional debates, but turning out in full to oppose anything put forward by the almost unanimously elected Scottish SNP representatives and then mocking us with laughter, surely the SNP manifesto for next year’s election must include Indyref 2, unless of course they walk out of Westminster and declare UDI before hand.

      Can the Scottish Government reject Westminster’s laws as undemocratic? Do we have to wait until every MSP and MP are SNP or pro indy to be able to actually make changes?
      Even if that did happen, which it won’t because of PR, the Tories would just say, you’ve had your say, now we’ll ask all members of parliament to vote.

      We can’t ever win, except through independence.

    193. G H Graham says:

      In 2012, a private contractor called “Capita” was appointed by the BBC’s TV Licensing brand, to collect the License Fee for eight years. In return it paid TV Licensing £560 million.

      Capita employs people on the basis that each enforcement of a payment of the fee from a “Legal Occupier” rewards the agent with a bonus of £10, allegedly. However, you cannot be imprisoned for non payment of the License Fee but you can go to prison if you don’t pay a fine issued by a court.

      Despite TV Licensing’s threatening letters including the warning of a £1,000 fine, it is only a court that can determined how much a fine is. Typically it is around £100 because it is means tested. Thus, someone on benefits, struggling to even pay the rent, gets a very low fine compared to say an abrasive toff, living in a castle he inherited as part of daddy’s tax dodging, property investment trust.

      The most important action anyone can take with regard to the License Fee is to abide by the law described in The Communications (Television Licensing) Regulations 2004

      Source: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2004/692/contents/made

      & have a Notice of Withdrawal of Access at hand if you are one of those people who do not watch live TV broadcasts AND don’t wish to engage with TV Licensing or Capita.

      Remember, neither of them have any authority to enter your property unless they already have a warrant issued by a court. And for that to happen, they would already need sufficient evidence of law breaking in order to convince a judge to issue the warrant.

      In summary then, follow the law & NEVER, EVER write, sign, talk or communicate with ANYONE from TV Licensing or Capita. When you communicate with them using your own name & address, you are initiating a contract.

    194. scunner says:

      @ A MacRitchie
      We shouldn’t stoop to insulting Murray for his obvious love of seconds at tea-time. We’ll get called Superficial Cybernats next. But it is OK behaviour for the many potty-mouthed Unionists who tended to ignore Salmond’s message in preference to insulting his extra pounds.

      Despite the round sneering coupon he was born with, it was the droning stream of guff which had me turn off the goggle-box after a few minutes and fire up the old sound system.

      Four fifths of what I witnessed were the same message: Smith (Vow) more than delivered, You (nats) agreed to it, lying condescending waffle filling up the bulk of the airtime – and a wee ineffectual-looking Nat bearing the brunt.

      Last night’s gang-up is just an example of all I expect from the British Broadcasting Corporation.

    195. McBoxheid says:

      handclapping says:
      2 July, 2015 at 12:45 pm

      As an English can I just point out how disappointing it is that those calling for the English born to be outlawed are using the English legal concept of nationality by place, who’s serf are you, instead of the Scottish concept of nationality by parentage and choice.

      I fully agree. I was born in Germany because both my parents joined the army. During the Thatcher years the work dried up and many left, they had no choice. Their childen were born outside Scotland. It doesn’t make them less Scottish, unless they want to be.

      People in temporary residence, ie foriegn students including rUK ones, short term contracted foriegn workers, etc should not get a say IMHO.

      Scots that have returned to Scotland, no matter where they were born and the incomers who have chosen Scotland as a permanent place of residence, if they are rUK nationals, should have a say, otherwise the whole question of independence looses all credibility.

    196. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dorothy Devine says: 2 July, 2015 at 6:30 am:
      Thank you for that verse, Dorothy – simply beautiful.


      Wha Bares a Blade for Scotland?

      Wha bares a blade for Scotland? She’s needin’ ye sairly noo,

      What will ye dae for Scotland for a’ She has dane for you?

      Think o’ the auld-time slogans, the thread runnin’ throu’ your plaid,

      The cairns o’ the Covenanters whaur the martyrs’ banes are laid;

      Ay, the faith o’ your godly fathers, is it naething to you the day?

      Wha bares a blade for Scotland? noo is the time to say.

      Just a wee note on the history of, “The Covenanters”.

      They were those people in Scotland who signed, “The National Covenant”, in 1638. They signed The Covenant to oppose the Stuart kings interfering in the Presbyterian Church of Scotland.
      The Stuart kings still believed in the, “Divine Right of Kings”, that had been legally abandoned in Scotland by, “The Declaration of Arbroath”, (in 1320 during the reign of King Robert Bruce).

      It was however still accepted as the law throughout Europe and that includes in the three country Kingdom of England where it only legally changed in 1688/9 during, “The Glorious Revolution”, when that Kingdom became a, “Constitutional Monarchy”.

      Not only did the Stuart Kings believe that God wished them to be the infallible rulers of their kingdom but they also believed they were the spiritual heads of the Church of Scotland. The Covenanters could not accept any man, not even a king, could be spiritual head of their church as only Jesus Christ could be spiritual head of a Christian church.

      Which is why the Treaty of Union agreed that Scottish law remained independent and why the UK Monarch still cannot head any Scottish Christian Church. It’s also why we, the people of Scotland are still legally sovereign. It is the basis of what we are disputing today and that boils down to, “The Establishment”, claiming they are sovereign over Scotland.

      As the sovereign people of Scotland elect representatives to Westminster the people are delegating their sovereignty to their representatives but in the rest of the bipartite Union the sovereignty is held by the parliament and is legally that of the Monarchy who gave up their veto over Parliament in 1688/9 when the English Kingdom imported King Billy & Queen Mary of Orange.

    197. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ken500 says: 2 July, 2015 at 8:47 am:

      “It’s like ‘the Emperors new clothes’. Tompkins is so biased he is falling over. Not a great stance for a credible academic.”

      When was Tomkins ever a, “credible academic”?

    198. CameronB Brodie says:

      Re. the BBC Women’s Hour “power list” whitewash.

      If I had control of the National, I might have come up with something like…

      One of these two leaders is top of a list of influential women…the other is a Bilderberger! Are folk habituated to fixate over lists?

      Remember when even suggesting the Bilderberg Group existed, would get you dogs abuse for being a ‘NWO conspiracy loony’?

      http://www.businessinsider.com/this-chart-shows-the-bilderberg-groups-connection-to-everything-in-the-world-2012-6?IR=T

    199. Paula Rose says:

      So according to some commenters they would be overjoyed if I was a top clas footballer and due to the rules (presume they are the same for both sexes) chose to play for Scotland – but wouldn’t want me to vote in any future referendum?

    200. John king says:

      Ain’t fptp a bich Phil? ????

    201. CameronB Brodie says:

      JLT
      Hi, I don’t think you are comparing equivalents there. Option one brings independence through inaction. Option two also delivers independence, but follows the deliberate/rash exclusion of a minority. If I was to describe good and bad on a sliding scale from 5 to -5, I’d score those choices 0 and -3.

      I’d prefer to give evolution a little more time. 😉

      P. S. Something does have to be worked out about uni students though, IMO. Most of those I spoke to during indyref had no intention of staying in Scotland and no understanding of the politics, other than what the BBC said. Why would they?

    202. Petra says:

      @ scunner says at 2:07 pm ”Despite the round sneering coupon he (Murray) was born with, it was the droning stream of guff which had me turn off the goggle-box after a few minutes and fire up the old sound system …. Four fifths of what I witnessed were the same message: Smith (Vow) more than delivered, You (nats) agreed to it, lying condescending waffle filling up the bulk of the airtime – and a wee ineffectual-looking Nat bearing the brunt.”

      It’s amazing how they can twist things scunner. The Labour Party who presented next to nothing to Smith (Tories did more), the SNP who had no option but to sign up to the ‘best that they could get out of it (Smith) with the Union parties outnumbering them’ and now amendments that even Labour has put forward being knocked back at Westminster. Mr Murray should remember that many eyes are on him and that we are all listening to what he is saying. He’s Labours one and only in Scotland and it’s amazing how circumstances can change overnight: how the mighty can fall. Lying aint going to revive his party either, far from it, or maybe he doesn’t care … I’m alright Jack.

      @ McBoxheid says at 2:19 pm ”I was born in Germany because both my parents joined the army. During the Thatcher years the work dried up and many left, they had no choice. Their children were born outside Scotland. It doesn’t make them less Scottish, unless they want to be. Scots that have returned to Scotland, no matter where they were born and the incomers who have chosen Scotland as a permanent place of residence, if they are rUK nationals, should have a say, otherwise the whole question of independence looses all credibility.”

      McBoxheid (and others) I wouldn’t take offense at this discussion. I’m in the same position as you due to a quirk of fate. People who advocate one thing or another often do so following a great deal of reflection and at the end of the day can find themselves between a rock and a hard place.

      I’ve taken into consideration all available data / statistics and considered the facts such as those who were disenfranchised or not which included Scottish servicemen and women who have been relocated abroad versus rUK soldiers who have been stationed in Scotland, 800,000 Scots living in rUK versus 400,000 plus rUK individuals living here but more than anything have considered the hundreds of thousands of children who are suffering miserably in Scotland, with another 100,000 expected to join them over the next five years. The damage that is being done to MANY of them will be irreparable. The rock and the hard place for me therefore relates to the abject misery of hundreds of thousands of children versus the hurt feelings of hundreds of thousands of adults and this is what has helped me to form my (unpopular it would seem) opinion.

      I’m telling you this hoping that you’ll see that this isn’t personal or ‘anti’ anyone at all. It goes way beyond that.

    203. john king says:

      Phil Robertson says @ 12.41
      “You are aware of the general election results Phil?
      There is ONE major party in Scotland!”

      Indeed I am. The parties were the four that polled the highest number of votes in that election. (That the outcome was distorted by 50% of the votes gaining 90+% of the seats is another matter.) And if there were to be a fifth seat at the table, the bad news is that UKIP outpolled the Greens.

      You’d like a one party state, I assume.”

      This has to rank as one of ironic statements ever uttered on Wings,

      For.. like …oh I dont know, EVER
      we have suffered under the fptp system while minority supported governments ruled Scotland,
      We currently have ONE Tory who bizarrely seems to be able to overrule 56 SNP mp’s and you have the gaul to ask me if I would prefer a one party state?

      Im not aware of any concern from unionists when the SNP with a large proportion of the Scottish vote could only muster a few MP’s but the minute fptp favours us its somehow undemocratic,
      CRY ME A RIVER PHIL!

    204. ronnie anderson says:

      @ JLT I like yourself have met many Wingers & People from Other Groupings .I do respect people for their honest opinions. But I will defend the rights of English Scots to vote,(those that live in Scotland ).

      I dont often let loose, but having this matter raised constantly,is direspectful to the many English & other nationalty,s who contribute to this site & many of whom I have canvassed with & still do,

      Paula Rose being but one such person (traveling long distances & expence) to Demonstrate & Promote our cause for Independence & this very Site, & there,s more like Paula (English/Polish) for YES,not forgetting the Catalans who campained for a YES vote.

      Think on People,you dont win Friends by alianating their Family’s & Friends.

    205. Paula Rose says:

      Anyone got an idea as to how to categorise me as English rather than Scottish yet?

    206. Gavin says:

      I see that the BBC have decided not to refer to “Islamic State” as “Daesh”. The reason given by the BBC ? They want to be seen to be fair to Islamic State.

      I wonder, when will the BBC be fair to the pro-independence movement and the SNP ?

    207. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      OOH! Paula Rose! You want to be ‘categorised’?

      Well, I’ve never tried it but I’m willing to give it a go. Will I have to wear your famous crotchless balaclava?

      I’m all a-tingling…

      8=)

    208. I agree with you fully patrick roden

    209. Grouse Beater says:

      I now watch everything on catchup in HD. Better quality, better choice and I can still legally watch everything on BBC and the commercial channels. Hit them in their pockets where it hurts.

      The BBC are lobbying hard for legislation to be brought in to make that loophole illegal. They want everybody to pay the license fee. And they have garnered some support.

    210. Paula Rose says:

      Lovely to see all these Scotland for the Scottish orcs clambering out of their caves – a very edifying sight to behold. Away back to your pits and leave the future to those who care about the world.

    211. Grouse Beater says:

      I wonder how Eddie Izzard is getting along without his comedy partner, Jim Murphy.

      I always thought they had promise but their patter and timing needed a lot of work. Sadly, I can’t see either succeeding in their new separate careers, Jim as a stand up comedian, and Eddie as a politician.

    212. A MacRitchie says:

      SCUNNER 14.07

      I didn’t realise I was speaking on behalf of all the pro indy fraternity. I don’t think unionist will be too concerned over my comment but it seems to have irritated you?

      If it irritates Porki enough to get me into slab dossier who cares. If Porki doesn’t like it let him contact me himself.

      So just to make it clear so scunner doesn’t worry its my comment and my opinion and in no way should unionist’s perceive that this is the opinion of all pro indy peeps. Porki will be able to sleep well tonight knowing this.

      Porki hasn’t said anything to bring the level of conversation to a higher level.

      Take the post anyway you like its supposed to be a democracy.

    213. Patrick Roden says:

      I appreciate the comments of all respondents top my post both for and against, but just to clear up my point about Scots only vote, I was not suggesting any anti English sentiments at all and anyone who knew my background would know that wasn’t the case, but my main point is I want us out of this stinking union and if this means fighting dirty and having a Scots only vote we need to do this or at least let Westminster know we intend doing this as they will then know that Scotland will have its independence.

      I think Grouse Beater made a very good point in that I should have said British rather than English, and I accept that point.

    214. Paula Rose says:

      Oh good grief!

      Would you dis-enfranchise all those born in England to Scottish parents, grandparents etc who now live in Scotland?

      What about those born in Scotland to English parents etc?

    215. Patrick Roden says:

      Given the choice of upsetting some people (the majority of whom voted No) and protecting the children and poverty stricken (obviously not you Paula) then yes I will happily disenfranchise all those who were not born in Scotland to get us out of this stinking union.

      Oh and it’s good to see you ‘care about the world’ paula, Duncan Hothersal uses the same nonsense to justify his support of Westminster, but perhaps it’s time you included ‘Scotland’ in this world of yours.

      PS if you are so thick that you are unable to comprehend the difference between someone saying that the SNP should fight dirty and use the same electoral franchise as Westminster intend using to ensure they win their EU election, than someone who is saying they want non Scots to not vote because they are Racist (or Orcs) then please stop responding to my posts until you have first spoken to an adult with a brain.

    216. Paula Rose says:

      I wonder if there is something strange in the air or water in the West Midlands of England.

    217. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Patrick Roden @ Paula Rose –

      If the great constitutional crisis of our time was The City Of London demanding the right to become a State Unto Itself, we might find common cause.

      As things stand, London already has that status, but declines to claim it for obvious reasons.

      That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t insist upon their taking custody of it all the same.

      Then we’d all be ‘happy’. ?

    218. Paula Rose says:

      I would love it if our contributor from the West Midlands would explain how we create an a electoral roll based on birth in Scotland.

    219. Paula Rose says:

      patrickroden
      West Midlands, England.

    220. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Perchance our woodwork is open to intervention?



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