We might have a day off
Posted on
April 17, 2013 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
We don’t really need to write anything today. If you want to know why you have to vote Yes in 2014, just turn on your TV.
According to Cameron, we’re all thatcherites now.
FW De Klerk is wearing well and how old is Kissinger, wonder what he has for breakfast.
Moss Bros will have supplied the suits for the occasion
link to dailyrecord.co.uk
I’ve reached thatcheration point with this wall to wall coverage
I’ve decided to view the whole thing as an eleborate performance art piece. It makes it much more bareable.
Edinburgh Quine, think you must be right. I walked past Holyrood this morning and had to do a double take, the flags are flying at half mast, this outside an organisation whose existence Thatcher was utterly opposed to. (FWIW, Holyroodhouse is flying the royal standard at half mast too.)
Go to You Tube and watch Spitting Image to avoid all this triumphalist hogwash, it helps today.
The absurdity of it all encapsulated for me in the putting back on of the bearer party hats …. bread and circuses indeed.
I’m at work, putting a magazine together, shielded from it all. Wings will be my only port of call today 🙂
@’horacesaysyes
Agreed. That last section of the performance brought to mind the parade scenes in the Godfather before the murder of the big cheese. Ah booing now.
Ducky Edinburgh seems real smiley today
Dressing up for street circuses to attract attention.
It’s what some folk do.
No production lost in any case.
It s disrespectful of the Scottish Government not to declare a public holiday and issue everyone with union jack onesies.
Why is Johann Lamont not at Maggie’s funeral as like Thatcher she campaigned against devolution in 1979.
Or so I am told has anyone got evidence of this?
Sad to see Salmond attending. Methinks he has been badly advised. I don’t care how dedicated or ‘courageous she was, she did nothing for Scotland, aside from destroying the car, steel, coal and shipbuilding industries and Squandering the Scottish oil wealth on the likes of the M25, the channel Tunnel, and tax cuts for those in South East England.
I regard those who attend her funeral and yet wholly despised everything she did to Scotland, as hypocrites. That includes the First Minister.
Unless, of course, you’re a member of the Scottish Labour Party, in which case, stand to attention in front of your telly and try to hold back the tears when the dulcet tones of ‘I Vow To Thee My Country’ (aka ‘The Two Fatherlands’) stirs your deep sense of national pride. And when the great leader’s coffin is finally laid to rest, drop to your knees and console yourself with the thought that, thank God, your party continued her legacy. No-one can accuse you or your party of not respecting Margaret Thatcher.
Oh the joys of living on the other side of the planet in Australia
The problem with flags flying at half mast in Edinburgh etc, is that at some point The Scottish Government will have to negotiate with the Westminster government, so in certain circumstance, a little bit of playing to the gallery is required. No matter how distasteful we find it. It’s a bit like turning up at the in-laws family event. You’d rather be somewhere else, so just grin, bear it and watch the clock. With a divorce not far down the line, those dinners and other events will soon be a thing of the past.
Robert Louis
I must disagree with you, surely you can see that Salmond is playing the game?
RL – As I understand it Alex Salmond is not attending. The ‘First Minister of Scotland’ is; that’s who was invited. They are two quite different things; just like ‘Former Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher’ and the ‘frail old lady who’s passed away’. If people wish to excuse Scotland’s highest ranking politician from the official need to attend the funerals of future UK ex-PMs they need to vote Yes in 2014.
Pardon me asking Robert, but aren’t you sure Alex is there just to trebble check the coffin is properly buried…….just in case.
Like the Minister private secretary: “Will you have today’s “toad to swallow” with milk, or without?”
From the BBC News website:
“Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson will also be among more than 2,000 guests at St Paul’s Cathedral.
It emerged on Tuesday that she and her deputy, Jackson Carlaw, were among a small number of guests who would have to pick up their invitations in person ahead of the service as they have not received them in the post…..”
Surely they didnae forget to invite her?
Does the BBC think this kind of thing will save their rotten little empire?
I don’t know what you’re all moaning aboot, this is by far the best episode of the series. What do you mean it’s not Doctor Who?
I’m Confused I thought I was watching this
i thought Salmond was going to make sure she was dead, then i realised it doesn’t matter.
Burried will do.
Salmond’s in a lose/lose position over it. Can you imagine the howling and screeching from unionists and the no camp if he had – on Scotland’s behalf – snubbed the funeral?
The Greens debate – long planned for today – was put back and the Scottish parliament finally forced to fly the flag at half mast by the continual bleeting and whinging of such eejits. No idea why; I’d prefer such people were ignored in Scotland entirely. But had Salmond not attended you could guarantee all voices in the MSM, BBC, UK establishment etc would have been raised, because he was invited, and is attending “on Scotland’s bahalf” not his own or the SNP. So probably the best call, politically, to go.
In any case, this whole nasty BritNat right wing charade is a great advert for independence. Lets look forward to the day our FM doesn’t have to attend such things because we’re no longer a part of that state. Can’t bloody wait.
I am one of the lucky ones ‘ as I am working till 10 tonight ‘ I will miss the whole stramash .
When I do eventually get home ‘ I will just ignore the news and catch up with wings ‘ newsnet etc .
RL
I agree with you on a personal level but the post of FM carries the burden of attending ceremonies and dealing with people you may not agree with He is FM of Scotland and as such must represent all the people of this country I do not think there was a choice
Is it not ironic BBC have a headline banner about Unemployment and Thatchers funeral. Are they having a laugh lol
Scottish skier,
I understand the point you make, however, the First Minister of Scotland was not forced at gunpoint to attend, and I hardly think the Tory glitteratti in London would give a flying you know what if he didn’t.
It is how I see matters, but I know others may disagree. As a supporter of both independence AND the SNP, I’m not just trying to make a cheap shot, I am genuinely disappointed. Many other political leaders from across Europe who were invited have not attended.
Anyway, as an aside, I do feel today, is a great way of reminding some Scots just what awaits us if we vote NO.
I will just watch this over and over.
It’s not often I agree with George Galloway
but he hit the nail on the head here…
@robertlouis
The SNP has made a post YES commitment to certain trappings of the current UK, not sure why his attendance is a surprise.
And, as an aside, the retaining of the monarch pledge will encourage people like my mother to vote YES.
Stage one get over the line.
RL. If it is any consolation, I imagine Maggie will be looking down (or more likely up) from where she is now and will not be best pleased at who is currently the FM of Scotland and is there waving her off.
RL
And that is the payoff for us We must continue to have these expensive Britfests for the next year to keep minds focussed
Anyhow how would they have managed without the FM singing heartily I somehow don’t think Gordy or Teflon Tony will have the ability to lead the singsong at the Apres Ski party They will be too overcome with grief to get a good knees up going
@Robert Louis -“I regard those who attend her funeral and yet wholly despised everything she did to Scotland, as hypocrites. That includes the First Minister.”
Can’t agree, I am a socialist, republican and Scottish nationalist. I detest the whole British ‘thing’ and Thatcher above all. However, I would make two points: 1. It is ironic and ever so appropriate that Alex Salmond, Scotland’s First Minister, the man who has done more for Scottish independence than any other living being, be at the funeral of Scotland’s greatest enemy of recent times. 2. Alex Salmond is representing not only his country, but the vision of Scotland as an independent nation. He has gone to the heart of the British Establishment and by his presence has declared that Scotland is a nation in its own right. He represents his country as leader of a soon to be independent nation. It is entirely appropriate that he attend the funeral of the woman who would have kept Scotland chained to Westminster.
This shit’s been going for half an hour now. When are the protests going to kick-off?
lol, well done George Galloway above, it’s a pity though that he supports this rotten imperialist British state rather than a prosperous fairer and independent Scotland.
@Albalha
“Stage one get over the line.”
Exactly. A thousand times yes. Above all else. Otherwise we’re Thatched.
Best laugh of the morning for me was the bit where the Queen arrived at St. Paul’s and Dimbleby solemnly announced that one of the St. Paul’s staff was about to “take her up the nave”. I know, I know…..I need to grow up.
Anyone else think Amanda Thatcher is good-looking?
Scottish skier, and Bill c,
I agree there is definitely a degree of irony in having an independence supporting First Minister to attend Thatcher’s funeral – perhaps the red and blue tories cannot see that.
Anyway, the whole shindig is nauseating. I only managed five minutes of it. The horrendous cost is being kept secret until after the event, in the same month as the bedroom tax was introduced, and disability support has been cut. Really we need to ask, just what is so f****** great about Britain anyway???
Get me a sick bag.
@Jeannie
Surely Phil would have them horsewhipped for that? 🙂
You can say what you want about George Galloway, but his ability to put into words what millions of people are feeling is outstanding.
@trainingday
I think BT get this, and on occasion, I worry there are those of us on the YES side who don’t.
It doesn’t make for bonny campaigning however.
‘May angels led you into paradise.’ Oh dear. :D: :D:
telly off, radio off, back turned
smashin’ piece by The Dug over at Newsnet
“if you want to know why you have to vote Yes in 2014, just turn on your TV.”
Pinching that for my Facebook status.
It is not lost on me that today 17th April 1746 has historical significance. Today is the 267th anniversary of the day after the battle of Culloden.
This is the anniversary of what is known as one of the darkest days in the history of the British army.
After the battle unusually William Duke of Cumberland in charge of the government army posted sentries to prevent anyone tending to the dying and wounded highlanders. Jacobite losses are estimated to be between 1,500 and 2,000 dead or seriously wounded. The dying and wounded would have lain in the bitterly cold conditions with nothing but heather for shelter and no aid whatsoever from midday on the 16th till the morning of the 17th they would have lain where they fell. On the morning of the 17th Cumberland issued orders to search the battlefield and to give no quarter to the dying and wounded. The lucky ones were bayoneted the others had their skulls caved in with the but of a brown Bess musket.
This was the start of the brutal and disgusting treatment melted out to the Scottish highlands. Another union “benefit”
Contrast that with the final hours of Margaret Thatcher dyeing in what I must assume complete luxury in the Ritz hotel in London tended by the best medical aid that money could buy.
As one Jacobite slogan said “Prosperity for Scotland and No Union”!
@Horacesaysyes
Surely Phil would have them horsewhipped for that
They can only hope 🙂
“I agree there is definitely a degree of irony in having an independence supporting First Minister to attend Thatcher’s funeral – perhaps the red and blue tories cannot see that.”
Indeed. I imagine, in his head, he’s doing a wee jig and a rude finger gesture towards the coffin. Maybe that’s just me and he’s more mature than that. But there you go Thatch…your funeral is being attended by a Scottish Nationalist FM of Scotland, who is campaigning for a YES to independence next year in a referendum we, the Scottish people, have won by our votes. It’s kind of nice to be there, in what is hopefully our final year subservient to the British state, as a country, represented by the guy who’ll lead us to independence.
Robert Louis – “Anyway, the whole shindig is nauseating. I only managed five minutes of it. The horrendous cost is being kept secret until after the event, in the same month as the bedroom tax was introduced, and disability support has been cut. Really we need to ask, just what is so f****** great about Britain anyway???
Get me a sick bag.”
Couldn’t agree more.
Think some of the nobs look well bored, looking at their watches and looking forward to the steak pie an a hauf.
Some are there to mourn.
Some are there to pay their respects.
Some are there because it’s their job.
Some are there to check she is really gone.
Enjoy your day off Stu.
AlexSalmond was wisely advised. By the end of the day he will not only have enhanced his statesmanship but spoken to many world leaders. He is looking at a bigger picture and that is a free Scotland respected in the world. I admire his vision . I am immature enough to be petty but that would never do as leader of a successful Scotland. My wife and her mother may well vote YES but not by listening to my angry rants. I hate the expression “it is nice to be nice” but they don’t !
link to twitter.com
pinched from twitter.
reasons to vote YES
@Jeannie
Best laugh of the morning for me was the bit where the Queen arrived at St. Paul’s and Dimbleby solemnly announced that one of the St. Paul’s staff was about to “take her up the nave”.
Jeezy Peeps…ooh Matron! 🙂
Thatcher`s ceremonial funeral cost is something I just can`t imagine a more canny independent Scottish government splashing out the cash for. And quite rightly, too.
Much as Galloway may be right in what he says, I believe his desire to get himself on the telly is stronger than his conviction in his words.
Aah BBC scotlands changed its web page and is now running the headline A.S. at the funeral and some nice photos of him to boot!!
@bunter
But nae Co-op purvey mind !
enjoy
Thanks Southern Scot. Now I’ve got Smokey Robinsons Tears of a clown stuck in my head…
I have to say that since the monster has died, BBC Scotland had kept the coverage relatively low key…..until today.
I Thought it may have been more important to run the jobs figures as top story, as in general, we were not so keen on the old witch but rather preferred jobs and industry.
The odd thing is that with all the flowing praise and cries of greatness have they forgotten she was kicked out of office by her own party???
Are we really cannonising a woman whose record in office covers the destruction of UK manufacturing, the deregulation of the “city”, the creation of a dependency class and who was sacked????
Is this reverse world or something???
I have it on good authority that Salmond has a wooden stake in his inside pocket, just in case. Apparently he smells very strongly of garlic as well.
I have to say that since the monster has died, BBC Scotland had kept the coverage relatively low key…..until today.
Don’t know about that, but it’s really weird that the whole UK has been blocked from have your say…
I see nothing odd in the FM attending Maggie’s funeral to give a sincere silent thank you. She more than anyone – with Blair a close second – helped boost the Independence issue.
@bunter.
Aye, some reasonably good news. Scottish unemployment down to 7.3%.
link to bbc.co.uk
Is she gone yet?
I can’t look. 😮
I watched the procession to make sure that reports of Thatcher’s death had not been exagerated and in the hope of spotting a few Munchkins in the crowd. I am only disapointed in respect to one of these objectives.
I trust that ordinary British people are now suitably reminded of their position and status in life, following this choreographed and highly stylised excersise in rubbing our noses in it.
What a truley obscene spectacle, especially the not-so-subtle Falklnds theme.
Vote Yes in 2014.
My God – horrible flashback! Just saw so many of her old cabinet on the tv -Nigel Lawson, Norman Lamont, Michael Heseltine, Michael Howard, Bernard Ingham, Norman Tebbit, Douglas Hurd, Malcolm Rifkind. I’d actually forgotten how much I detested these characters at the time. It was like a scene from The Godfather. It’s actually brought it all back to me.
What’s worse is the realisation that they’re still calling the shots via the House of Lords. And we’re still paying their way for them with our oil. For God’s sake, vote Yes and stop inflicting this insanity on our kids.
It seems its BBC Scotland thats the real tartan tories with their state sponsored North Korea esqe type coverage of Thatchers’ funeral. Duly turned off again. Too eerie for words but reminds me we need away from this pathetic fawning circus that is UKplc more than ever.
@bunter
“I have to say that since the monster has died, BBC Scotland had kept the coverage relatively low key…..until today.”
This tells you much about the ultimate lack of autonomy at Pacific Quay. Even though they will be well aware of how Thatcher is generally loathed in Scotland, they have no choice, today of all days, but to go along with the London script and the London hagiographical tone, from Gary Robertson’s fawning interview with David Mundell on GMS this morning to the subsequent wall-to-wall coverage.
There will, of course, be many at Pacific Quay who will welcome that lack of autonomy today, not so much due to a liking for Thatcher, but for a chance to showcase the symbols of the British state.
In a previous comment I said Maggie Thatcher reminded me of the goddess of destruction and renewal, Kali. Another Indian parallel has struck me with all the Britfests we’ve been having recently, the Delhi Durbars, where the full splendour of the British state and imperial crown were impressed upon the Indian population. The monarch attended the 1911 Durbar and it was intended that every subsequent monarch would attend future Durbars. The Durbars were the acme of imperial Britishness, yet the effect of the popaganda was minimal, and India gained independence before any more could be held.
I see Thatcher’s funeral as one of the very last displays of the British state.
Stirring words from George Galloway. But let’s not forget that Galloway was also a Scottish Labour MP between 1987 and 2005. Then, too, he made many fine speeches against Thatcher (as well as John Major and Tony Blair). But a silver tongue provides no redemption for Galloway’s betrayal of the Scottish working class.
Let us not forget that in the period 1979-97, Labour won every general election in Scotland and not once did Galloway, or any other Scottish Labour MP, question Thatcher’s or Major’s constitutional right to govern Scotland. In effect, in spite of their impotent protestations, these Scottish Labour MPs effectively colluded with Thatcher’s imperative to the Scottish people that ‘there is no alternative’, just like they’re colluding with the Tories and the imposition of their policies on Scotland today.
I have vague memories of the entire school being gathered in the gym hall, round the old B&W television, watching Churchill process on his not so merry way.
Having been down at the weans’ school an hour ago I was delighted to hear that only one class was gathered in the gym hall, and with not a TV to be seen, for it was the regular Bangra dancing session of this week’s gym class. The infant class was gettng on with their work.
Not only were things different in 1965, but we had a wee bottle of milk to raise in a toast. Or perhaps it was just the gravitas of the occasion.
Craig P says:
17 April, 2013 at 12:32 pm
I see Thatcher’s funeral as one of the very last displays of the British state.
Hopefully an accurate prediction, but we can do more than hope though.
Vote Yes in 2014.
I’m afraid it’s one of the penalties of being an independent nation and playing one’s part on the world stage, that you occasionally have to hold you nose and dissemble. I don’t imagine that Thatcher’s funeral will be the last time that Scotland’s leaders will find themselves having to be polite in dubious company. It’s diplomacy.
Am fortunate enough not to gave a TV so can anyone tell me….. is Eck wearing his ‘YES’ badge?
WILL NOT TURN ON TELE, RADIO, OR ANY NEWS CARRYING DEVICE (apart from WOS 😉 )
And yes, I know I’m shouting :^D
@ southernscot
that bastard gideon with tears running down his cheeks for his mentor in the week his economic policies begin to affect the disabled and poorest in society. Anyone who doesn’t vote ‘yes’ next year requires sectioning!
BBC Scotland continuing with its propanda today.
Just compared the headlines describing those in attendance at funeral and only the Scottish pages mention the persons name in the headline. Wales & Northern Ireland have “Welsh Guards…” & “NI Guests…” as well as “Last Respects …” from the English pages.
The objective is very clear; associate the name Salmond with Thatcher/Conservatism by printing them together as often as possible to give the fact free reader the impression that Salmond is a supporter of Conservatism, approves of Conservatism & most absurd of all, his party assisted Thatcher’s rise to head of British government.
Nice try but the BBC in Scotland is wrong if it thinks it can peddle peurile propaganda without it being recognized as such.
I too have had tears running down my cheek,unfortunately I have a blocked tear duct maybe Geordie boy is suffering the same affliction so don’t be too quick to jump to conclusions
My tuppence worth is that there probably should be a funeral in St Paul’s for former PMs and the various political leaders should attend if available. The pomp and pagentry for this one is over the top and given she was such a divisive figure ill advised. The polls seem to reflect that too, both in relation to Thatcher and any hoped for bounce for the Tories.
I was around when she was in power and was delighted when she was toppled. However, I have no feelings either way regarding her passing. She became history over 20 years and has had no political relevance for years. Tomorrow it is back to old clothes and porridge for all of them.
Just heard cameron on TWAO, his passage contained ‘in my house are many mansions’. Just how bloody ironic can the torys get without realising it!
OT: Just to put Tavish Scott’s Orkney/Shetland pish to bed. link to pressandjournal.co.uk
Why is the graph illustrated with a Union Jack when the question was explicitly about leaving SCOTLAND?
@Boorach Absolutely. Been living in England for 27 years hoping to be back next year. What many scots unionist fail to understand how little Scotland registers in the msm in England. What there is, is mainly very negative and I can see the upset the supposed “freebies” which the scots are ungrateful for coming to a head if we don’t vote YES. Scotland will again be decimated. I hate the Americanisation of UK politics. and the demonisation of the poor just look to America to see what will happen to the NHS in Britain.
The wrong caption is on the video -it should be ‘Unionist crying over the death of their……’
@ southernscot, I believe it’s happening already to the NHS down there. Becoming something of a postcode lottery whether you have to pay for varicose treatment, hip replacement and a number of other procedures
@southernscot
southernscot says:
17 April, 2013 at 12:00 pm
link to twitter.com
pinched from twitter.
reasons to vote YES
Do you think he’s just been handed the bill for the funeral?
scottish_skier @ 12:33pm said:
” Aye, some reasonably good news. Scottish unemployment down to 7.3%.”
link to bbc.co.uk
Yes that is indeed good news given the headlined UK total of 2.5million unemployed of which 900,000 have been out of work for more than a year.
@Jeannie
Lol, Nah it was the crematorium gas bill, shite disny burn, had to bury her instead.
@southernscot
Ma gas is at a peep 🙂
@Boorach Well its started.
A.S. had a nice smile on his face in St Pauls.
No black tie. Might have been Saltires on the one he was wearing and was that the bulge of a box of swan vestas in his pocket.
I think its right AS should attend, imagine Thatcher’s reaction to this, she’d be horrified.
I would imagine Alex is there sporting a pretty huge (steady!) internal grin.
She may not have turned while alive, but she’ll be spinning in her grave with an SNP FM attending her pantomime of a funeral and that gives me a small degree of pleasure.
Did I hear Mags Curran say today on Radio ‘Scotland’ that the best way to protest against Thatcher was not to dance in the street but to oppose her policies?
If that is the case, why are Labour adopting her policies and asking us to vote No in the Referendum?
We get the charade and nonsense down in Londinium – ‘She was a wonderful prime minister who brought the country together and will be sorely missed.’
Meanwhile, wreaths are being laid in communities where she destroyed livelihoods and lives, and in others effigies of Thatcher are being burned – ‘The people here will never forget what that evil woman did to us; she took away our livelihoods, tore our communities apart and destroyed families; we’re only too glad she’s gone.’
Are we living in some kind of parallel universe maybe, or, are we really ‘all in it together’, but we haven’t quite got it yet?
Is the present-UK what France was like before they had their revolution?
@seasickdave
They’d 13 years to do something about Thatcherite policies, all too bloody late now, even if they did mean it. These people have no shame.
@DalRiata
Pre revolution the absolute monarchs in France were up to their necks in debt due to a couple of costly wars, ……., you may have a point.
creag an tuirc says:
17 April, 2013 at 1:18 pm
OT: Just to put Tavish Scott’s Orkney/Shetland pish to bed. link to pressandjournal.co.uk
I wonder why the P&J uses Union Flags to represent those who want to remain Scottish in their graphics?
Oops… the Rev beat me to it!
Forgetting A.S. for a minute. Was I the only one who had a problem with some of the attending guests? In particular, Henry Kissenger.
link to zpub.com
@Dal Riata
I really don’t want to go down this rabbit hole unduly (as I am in a dangerous minority of one here and already doubtless on a very short leash), but seriously – do you imagine that the immediate pre-Thatcher UK was anything other than already a *supremely* divided and divisive place, without any help from her?
I’m very much the working class son of an immigrant factory worker; I was born in the same year as Stu – 1967. I well remember everyone having candles etc. in the mid to late 70s, as the striking miners on pain of 33% demanded payrises held the country to ransom; black outs were commonplace, inflation was rampant. Strike after strike, the Winter of Discontent (of 1978…) – these things happened. I’m a Tory “wet” and very much regret the failure of Thatcherism to counter the terrible effects of (inevitable) unemployment arising from hugely loss-making public sector industries – owned and bankrolled by the public – being shut down or privatised. *I* worked in a factory in 1984-5 and *I* lose MY factory job (and livelihood) as a direct result. But, notwithstanding the fact that much more could and should have been done to cushion the blow, does anyone seriously thinks that these things should not have been done? That the socially irresponsible, all-powerful unions bringing the country to its knees should NOT have been confronted? That the working man or woman should not have access to mortgages, and that stockbrokers and the like could only get on the bandwagon if their dad was a member of the right club/old boy network and went to the right school?
I’m unashamedly working class; Thatcher and her ilk finally gave the likes of me – having gone to some shitty third rate comprehensive and having left school (and home) at the age of 16, but having the raw desire to try to get on despite such social handicaps – the ‘tools’ (belief) to do better. ‘Self-employed’ was a dirty word until 1979.
As unpopular as it will undoubtedly be, I say RIP Maggie.
Captain
You are now in the warren 🙂
Thatcher wiped out failing industries with not a thought for the human wreckage that was left behind.
She was utterly devoid of compassion and is thus deserving of the criticism that we still hear today.
She was a strong leader but there are many leaders around the world that we could say that about.
I shall not miss her.
The Glasgow evening paper not really in tune with the mourning throngs.
link to twitpic.com
@ Captain Caveman
But did you agree with her privatisation of the utilities, which essentially sold our democratic control over them, our common wealth? Did you agree with her objection to the principle of collective barganing? Did you agree with her de-regulating the City? Or to put it another way, did you agree with the de-crimnalisation of City practices previously considered criminal? Did you agree with the Poll Tax, which had been strongly recommended against by the Royal Commision charged with looking in to the ratings problem? Did you agree with her extremely ditermanistic approach, i.e. THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE? Do you also have similarly facsistic tendancies?
Snatcher gave you the right to buy your council house only to have to sell it again to pay for your keep in your old age. Sell it back to the bank and spend the lot.
“Do you also have similarly facsistic tendancies?”
Oh come on, man. This is what I mean and it’s why I’m not going to say owt else in the matter. I’ll convince no-one; all it will do is generate a shedload of ill feeling which is not what I particularly want. I’ve said what I wanted to say; agree to differ etc.
does anyone seriously thinks that these things should not have been done?
That’s a strawman. Opponents either object to a whole lot of other things being done, or to the manner in which she did those things (or both). That things needed done is undeniable, as is the fact that all the major problems facing the UK and its people currently are as a result of Thatcher’s ‘solutions’. Medicine was needed, but what we got were leeches, bloodletting and a patient in terminal decline.
Capt Caveman- are you saying without Thatcher you’d never have got on with being self employed and/or buying your own home? I was born the same year as you and I believe I got all my success in education and employment without the help of anyone, let alone tories or labour politicans. I left school at 15 (my choice) and I don’t begrudge a single tax penny I’ve paid since. Slash and burn economics are short term gain for long term pain. The UK could have used the wealth from oil and privatisation sales for rebalancing the economy such as along the German model but no, the model preferred by the tories was the rabid monetarism of the Chicago School type. we can all see how that worked out eh?
Captain Caveman
The way I see it, we are where we are.
Fortunately for Scotland, in 2014 we have the opportunity to decide if we would like our future to take a different route; vote NO and lose some of our hard won benefits as we regress to the Westminster model of austerity and cuts or vote Yes to choose a path tailored to the people of Scotland and taking advantage of its enormous resources.
To me its a very simple choice, to others they prefer to wrap themselves in a Union Jack and head back into the storm.
Salmond: “”It is important we [the Scottish government] attend the funeral, I do on behalf of the people of Scotland and do so properly because that is the right thing to do in terms of the funeral – but I can well understand why many, many people would see that sort of cost as disproportionate.”
Has he asked the people of Scotland whether we want to be represented at Thatcher’s funeral? I’d imagine the answer would be a resounding no.
I think this is a case of, oh look your wrist is broken. So I’ll fix it by lopping your arm off at the shoulder and handing you a sticking plaster.
Labour were beyond useless in the 1970s. I remember. I was mildly pleased when Thatcher got in, because I realised something different needed to be done. (And I wasn’t a child then, I was working on my PhD.) However, just saying, something different needed to be done and she did something different, is not enough. What she did was pure evil.
The thing I hate her for most of all is that she pissed away our oil revenues on unemployment benefits for the people she’d thrown out of work and vanity projects for the south east of England. She sold off Britoil and sold off the oil exploration rights for a knock-down price just to make a quick killing, then squandered the proceeds.
The lottery win of the oil discovery should have been husbanded to provide a better life and a better future for all of Britain. If she’d done that, and if Scotland had benefited along with everyone else, she’d have bound Britain together.
She didn’t do that. Vote Yes to have a say in how we deal with the next 40 years of oil revenues.
Vote NO and consign Scotland to a grim future of malevolent Westminster governance.
Norsewarrior, think about the idea of Salmond, nationalist firebrand of the Commons in the latter part of Thatcher’s reign, showing up at her funeral as FM of Scotland.
Ultimate in revenge, I think.
“Norsewarrior, think about the idea of Salmond, nationalist firebrand of the Commons in the latter part of Thatcher’s reign, showing up at her funeral as FM of Scotland.”
But as others have said already earlier, it isn’t ‘Salmond’ the man who is at the funeral, its Salmond the ‘First Minister of Scotland’.
Apart from the obvious fact that Thatcher no longer lives and so won’t be aware of ‘Salmond’s revenge’, Salmond isn’t there as ‘Salmond’, he is there on behalf of the Scottish people, as he himself said.
However I doubt the vast majority of the Scottish people want him, or anyone else, there on our behalf.
FFS
“I do on behalf of the people of Scotland and do so properly because that is the right thing to do in terms of the funeral”
I genuinely don’t understand this thing about it being ‘respectful’ and the ‘right thing’ to attend Thatcher’s funeral even if you disagree with what she did and the damage she caused, as well as the cost of the funeral.
Surely if you disagree with what someone did or said, it would be the right thing to not attend their funeral or any commemoration of them?
You wouldn’t attend the funeral of a neighbour who’d spent years making your life a misery with divisive attacks on you and your family, so why on earth should it be any different with Thatcher purely because she was the first female PM and a granny and the other reasons those who disagreed with her have trotted out for attending?
I made a point of not watching the funeral, or any of the news today, because I feared the worst. But this made me feel better:
“I have decided to deal with every item of news about the arrangements for Thatcher’s funeral by mentally appending the phrase ‘lest she rise again’ in a tone of dark foreboding. For example:
“Big Ben to be stopped from striking during Thatcher’s funeral – lest she rise again!”
“Thatcher’s body moved to the chapel of the Palace of Westminster – lest she rise again!””
Good quote from Patrick Harvie:
“There is an obvious irony in the state picking up the tab for the funeral of such a committed market evangelist. Mrs Thatcher was a deeply divisive figure, and the pseudo-state funeral which she is to receive will understandably strike many as highly inappropriate. The disparity between the small sums made available to mark the passing of the very poorest in society, and the millions to be spent on the funeral of one rich individual is itself a testament to the worst of Thatcher’s legacy.”
He is someone who most certainly would not have attended the funeral even if he were the First Minister.
You wouldn’t attend the funeral of a neighbour who’d spent years making your life a misery with divisive attacks on you and your family, so why on earth should it be any different with Thatcher purely because she was a PM and a granny?
Alex Salmond, as the FM of Scotland has a duty to attend funerals of prior members of State. Whether or not he liked or respected them for their actions in office. If he had given an excuse as to not attending it would need to have been a bl**dy good one, as he would have been roundly criticised for not attending.
As a head of Government, you have some responsibilities that you are expected to undertake. Most families would not have the burden of expectation placed upon them if they did not appear at a funeral. I understand from earlier comments possibly on a different thread that AS was not wearing a black tie, but was present.
No point being seen as taking a political stance, just because he didn’t like her policies or the way they were carried out. He has been dignified in his response and actions surrounding her death.
@captain caveman
but having the raw desire to try to get on despite such social handicaps – the ‘tools’ (belief) to do better
We’re not that different, Captain Caveman. Those of us who want to live in an independent Scotland are also thinking…”Give us the tools and we’ll do better”. It sounds to me that when you were given more control, you made the best of it for yourself and your family. We just want the chance to do the same for ours.
In the extremely unlikely event of Patrick Harvie ever being FM, if he had then boycotted Thatcher’s funeral he would have been subject to extreme criticism. Any potential gain would not be worth it.
This is the sort of event where someone in Salmond’s position just has to hold his nose and go.
@Captain Caveman
Have a look at this article especially the last paragraph.
” The New Economics Foundation’s Measure of Domestic Progress, MDP, which takes into account, in addition to per capita GDP, 20 additional economic, social and environmental factors, finds that the UK’s quality of life reached its highest post war level in 1976, fell throughout the 1980s,(the Thatcher years), rose again in the late 90s, but ” has yet to regain its 1976 peak.”
or here.
being born in 1965 I too lived through those times and in my opinion most of the problems were down to incredible bad management and poor investment, sure the unions aren’t blameless and didn’t help the situation but I watched as many industries around Glasgow were decimated and unemployment went up to over 30% in my area, in the space of a few years. It was not a happy place to be and left in ’85.
He is someone who most certainly would not have attended the funeral even if he were the First Minister.
Patrick Harvey might have got away with not attending the funeral, Certainly as Alex Salmond has been a major figure in Scottish Politics since the mid / late 1970’s both at Westminster and at Hollyrood. Patrick Harvey has only been on the scene for 5 minutes by comparison.
He is indeed lucky to be able to say what he likes on the subject and not have an invitation to attend. AS on the other hand has worked in the same Parliament as Thatcher for quite a number of years.
@Captain Caveman
I can’t be bothered to go into the myriad of reasons why I disagree with your views on Thatcher, sorry. All I will say is, that the hatred the majority of the people of Scotland still feel toward Thatcher and the governments she led is there for a reason. Let’s just agree to disagree.
And in other news relevant to WoS….
Oh no, he’s/she’s/it’s baaaaaaaaaaaaack!!
@Jeannie
I have never had any problem with those who want an independent Scotland. It’s an entirely legitimate and perfectly reasonable aim. For me though, the primary issue is that actually, I believe an independent Scotland could ironically find herself a good deal less ‘independent’ than her current (devolved within the UK) state – EU status as a newly formed small nation and so on. I also think that the benefits of being part of a larger, more powerful collective that is the UK have been demonstrable in terms of weathering the banking crisis and such like.
But these are only my opinions in the matter. As per previous, I just wish more meat could be put on the bare bones in terms of what an independent Scotland would look like, how it would operate within the world, what its status within (or out of) the EU would be and so on? I think the onus is on the SNP to deliver this detailed manifesto well in advance of the referendum, since it is they who are principally proposing the break from the current status quo. But in all honesty, I think we’re a long way from such a position now, which might go some way to explain the tit-for-tat media ‘Phoney War’, there’s not actually that much else to discuss right now, is there?
These are merely my half-formed thoughts on the matter. Others (most) here will know vastly more about the issue of Scots independence than me; I am merely an interested observer.
first thing this morning I put on the telly and I am faced with Sally Magnusson dressed in mourning black ,I stood the fawning and rewriting of history for all of 1 minute and 17 seconds before I could take no more and put the telly off again, this evening managed about 3 minutes before it became unbearable and put the news onto al jazeera at least I can trust them
@Captain Caveman
Do you mind if I ask…is EU membership a concern for you generally, whether Scotland is within the UK or independent?
I think I need to wash my hair this evening.
@Jeannie
No problem at all. 🙂
Yes, EU membership is indeed a concern – I believe Scotland (and the UK) should very much remain within it, broadly for the same reasons that I personally think Scotland (as a DevoMax devolved entity) should nominally remain within the UK.
That’s not to say, though, that the EU is not in dire need of reform – which I think will be coming soon. The Germans are making ever more sympathetic noises towards the UK’s position as regards all that.
@Morag
Sadly I no longer have that option. 😀
@Captain Caveman says
I also think that the benefits of being part of a larger, more powerful collective that is the UK have been demonstrable in terms of weathering the banking crisis and such like.
Don’t get that one, how much would Scotland as an independent state been liable for ?
@Cameron
Do you have similarly facistic tendencies?
That was unnecessary.
Captain Caveman has a point. The Callaghan govt was powerless and useless. Heath was worse. Remember ‘Crisis? What crisis?’ Remember the schedules of power cuts printed in the papers? Remember the 3 day week?
When you blame Thatcher ( and I do, for many things), it’s worth remembering the idiocy of Scargill in taking his members into a strike which a second’s rational thought would have shown him he couldn’t win. Remember Brenda Dean of SOGAT, who later became a baroness – no surprise there – ‘defending’ her members against a technology which would replace hot metal as surely as the canals were doomed by the railways….?
The Thatcher era was defined as much by the sheer pig-headed arrogance of the Union leaders as by Thatcher’s personal crusade to break them. It was a contest of elephants in which the grass got trampled – (read people suffering from the effects of blind loyalty). In my take, one lot were as bad as the other, and I (metaphorically) spit on both sides for putting personal power-grabbing above thinking of what was right, and what should be done for the benefit of the people.
An independent Scotland won’t be perfect, but with luck, the confrontations of 1974-1984 just won’t be possible.
“When you blame Thatcher ( and I do, for many things), it’s worth remembering the idiocy of Scargill in taking his members into a strike which a second’s rational thought would have shown him he couldn’t win.”
Huge +1 to that, especially as he did it in such a moronic way. I’m from a former mining/steel town, and even there in the 1980s a lot of working-class people were saying “Why didn’t he have a ballot, the clown?”
@Captain Caveman
Yes, I think we’re better within Europe myself. I’m wondering what your concerns are with respect to Scotland being a newly-independent country within the European Union. Could you maybe say a wee bit more about that in case I’ve missed something?
Re Scargill I agree he made mistakes but on the ballot, they held regional ballots, fearing they’d lose at a national level and not all branches bought the secret pit closure lists, which in the end was proven to be true.
I don’t remember it as straightforward.
“Re Scargill I agree he made mistakes but on the ballot, they held regional ballots, fearing they’d lose at a national level”
Thinking you might lose is not justification for not having a vote. If you lose a vote, you didn’t make your case well enough and that’s democracy. If you win, you have right on your side and can’t be easily divided, which the miners were.
@ Captain Caveman
“I just wish more meat could be put on the bare bones in terms of what an independent Scotland would look like, how it would operate within the world…”
The future is unknown, but if you read around, I think you’ll find both the SNP and Yes Scotland have tried to put as much flesh on the bones as they can.
FWIW, these are the (main) reasons why I work for an independent Scotland:
1) The belief that small democratic polities are more successful than large ones
2) A vision of a Europe composed of such polities within the EU – a quasi-federal structure where the outdated 19th century nation-state model loses relevance
3) The knowledge that Scotland was once a perfectly successful (and often highly constructive) player on the European stage, and could be so again.
4) The freedom to make our own mistakes, and hold ourselves accountable for them.
5) The knowledge that Scottish interests (economic, political, cultural) are not always those of the UK, and that, where they are not, they are ignored
6) Loyalty to an ‘idea’ of Scotland. It hasn’t always been perfect. In fact, sometimes it has been bonkers. But it has endured through centuries, and I’d like to revive it.
7) The thought – and I do believe this, although it is sometimes exaggerated, that we, as a people, have an understanding of fairness in our treatment of others, which is – at best – ‘variable’ in the UK
HTH!
Fair enough though wouldn’t describe it as moronic. They were between a rock and a hard place by then.
Something that does not seem to be mentioned much about Thatcher is that she was lucky in facing some tactical balloons as opponents. I am thinking about Scargill and Hatton in particular. They were drawn into a confrontation with her, and she destroyed them by using the superior power she held over them. She also fully exploited the divisions within the Miners. Foot and Kinnock were not up to much either. Unfortunately Thatcher never came up against someone like Jimmy Reid.
Ah, Derek Hatton; I’d forgotten him
Derek Hatton (born 17 January 1948 in Liverpool) is a former politician, broadcaster, property developer, businessman and after-dinner speaker. (my bold) (Wiki)
Says it all, really.
How few, how very few, retain their integrity.
The day Dennis Skinner capitulates, I’ll know that all is lost. Luckily, there’s more chance of hell freezing over.
@Kininvie
@captain caveman
The belief that small democratic polities are more successful than large ones
I’m told that a good reference for this point of view is the work of David Skilling, a respected economist whose work shows that small countries have weathered the recession better than large countries and can be more agile and adaptable in the face of volatile economic circumstances. I think you can find some of his papers on the website of the David Hume Institute.
@albaha
They were between a rock and a hard place by then.
They were. But there was still a lot to play for. If they had had a leader who was as subtle as Thatcher was not, there was good compromise available. She was far from certain of her power at the time. The problem (I think) was that Scargill (& others) had been seduced by ideology. And ideology is – usually – fatal to good politics (and to good government)
@kininvie
I wonder how much really was left to play for. The Tories had their closure lists, the police were well on their way to being agents of the state, it was the second time she’d come up against the miners and of course it dated back really to the 1970’s.
But maybe with a more astute leader, maybe.
O/T Vitol etc. Herald prints Vitol’s responses to its allegations (an ‘error’ to ommit them in first place) link to heraldscotland.com
Another possible angle for Stu if it comes to plea-bargaining?
Unfortunately :-), Vitol’s responses are written in the leaden prose typical of the misbegotten offspring of a lawyer and a PR professional (apologies if there are any such here)
So no one will read them. Or believe them if they do.
“O/T Vitol etc. Herald prints Vitol’s responses to its allegations”
It’s an odd business. I can see no legal requirement to give a company a right of reply to allegations that weren’t actually made. I don’t recall the Herald saying their dealings with Arkan were illegal, or that tax avoidance was.
Staying O/T, what news of National Collective, wasn’t the news meant to be relayed early this week?
“This is the sort of event where someone in Salmond’s position just has to hold his nose and go.”
Agreed Morag.
He is the FM of Scotland and at this point in time a Scotland which is still part of the UK. Whether he likes it or not his job was to wear his diplomats hat, as you say, hold his nose and at least make a show of paying respects.
Not everything about the job is necessarily a pleasure.
Not everything about the job is necessarily a pleasure.
No, but this may not have been such a terrible chore. Just saying….
@ Rev Stu
Odd, as you say. But editorial depts increasingly in thrall to lawyers. I had 3 ‘allegedly’s stuck into an article of mine last week when the facts were fully and publicly attested. Anything to avoid trouble….
“Odd, as you say. But editorial depts increasingly in thrall to lawyers. I had 3 ‘allegedly’s stuck into an article of mine last week when the facts were fully and publicly attested. Anything to avoid trouble….”
Aye, been there many a time in my career. The advantages of a one-man dictatorship 😀
@Morag
LOL 😀
I was thinking more along the lines of having to turn up at all, but I think your take is better.
In response to many comments weighing the bad and good memories of lived experience, I look forward to the day we vote to put behind us the UK’s failed political leanings and economies since WW Part II in favour of a modern social democracy with a mixed market economy based on long-term productive reinvestment in our own and ample potential talents and the natural resources of and our surroundings on land and at sea.
Indeed, I for one among many relish the opportunity to be responsible fully for getting out from under to overcome the chronic political short term legacy of mal-investment for societies, first under the spend to save centre left governments of the public corporate state and then – since 1979 – the save to spend centre right governments of the private corporate state that followed in principle and/or boom to bust practice.
Neither nurtured sustainable growth for the Welfare State envisaged by Beveridge, let alone to pay our trading way courtesy of the cash-back for voteRus political benefit culture of the competitive but closed-shop of ConLabLibselfservative hegemony.
Turn and turn about, each sought to impose their visions of our societies on us only to divide and rule instead of being a true reflection of our visions for our societies in harmonious communities of families, friends and fellow folk of all ages and occupations, whether ageing to be renewed or emergent to be grown to their full potential at maturity.
Hollowed out by over-centralisation, the Uk’s over-leveraged FPTP and thus false majorities of so called ‘strong’ governments – run by and for an increasingly remote, factional and fractional preserve of the minority that was some of us in wannabe only them – never really broke free of the short term business as usual boom to bust cycle.
Despite the generous aid and loans paid off but recently then – and the manna of oil from the North Sea that came on stream in 1975, it was all squandered at great human cost for short-term political gain. ‘In Place of Strife’ we got the IMF bail out to fuel a battlefield between conflicting convictions – only for the good, beforehand and then gained, to be buried too by the bad all over again.
Relative public spending had increased in both eras of political leaning and economy. Lacking real savings from the first led to privatisation in the second. Where governments in the hand’s on former failed to control the market place, as Black Wedneday’s sham shadowing did too, the hand’s-off by the laissez-faire latter let loose the incompetent and finagling financier’s induced Big Bang > Big Boom > Big Bust > Big Bail-out > Big Downturn > Big Depression and back to basic Big Bankruptcy for the third but too big to be bailed out again this time.
‘If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it’, so the saying goes. But it wasn’t too big too fail, and it ain’t too big to fix by breaking-up. So Yes, let’s pull the plug on the UK’s asset stripping political bathwater and save our social union too this time, baby.
The combination of sovereign independence and confederal union sharing optimal autonomy all round in our isles is the win-win outcome of our Referendum for all but the increasingly isolated unitarists – and their UKIP separatists too.
We can begin by recognising our personal and plural sovereignty is our unique individual and shared being that makes up our society at home. And – by signing the YES Declaration – acknowledge that now as preface to doing so again when making our mark in favour of YES in our Referendum.
It is only in that way that our personal and plural sovereignty in consequence can be enacted as: a) the foundation of our own unique/sovereign state, and b) extended and shared in mutual interest with our neighbours.
I’ll be signing-up shortly when I get home for the good of making my mark in being part of the means and ways to the open end of it 🙂
@Morag
I would have loved it if when the cameras at Thatchers funeral paned across Wee Eck he had a huge grin on his face and gave a double thumbs-up. 😉
@kininvie
‘The Thatcher era was defined as much by the sheer pig-headed arrogance of the Union leaders as by Thatcher’s personal crusade to break them. It was a contest of elephants in which the grass got trampled – (read people suffering from the effects of blind loyalty). In my take, one lot were as bad as the other, and I (metaphorically) spit on both sides for putting personal power-grabbing above thinking of what was right, and what should be done for the benefit of the people.’
Thanks for your comments Kininvie. Somewhat uncomfortable reading for the likes of me I must say, but in my heart of hearts I realise there is some (considerable) truth in what you say and it is fair comment. I guess for me, the analogy I would use is that 1979 UK was a man riddled with cancer. The ‘cancer’ were the unions (as well as the useless ‘them and us’ management of British companies also). Thatcher was the chemotherapy which saved the patient’s life – but unfortunately it was grossly over-administered and thus terrible and unnecessary (and lasting) side-effects resulted. Had the life-saving chemo been given at the lower correct dose, a cure would still have been effected.
As I said in my first post, I am highly critical of Thatcher for not softening the inevitable blow resulting from the essential step-changes which simply *had* to be made, but a cure is still a cure. I shudder to think what would’ve happened had Labour won in ’79 and/or Michael Foot was PM through the early 80s.
Good post Indion.
Like the post indion. 🙂
@ kininvie
I am sorry, but I disagree that my comment regarding fascist tendencies was unnecessary. What else do you call the centralisation of political power, the decimation of collective barganing rights, mobilisation of nationalistic patriotism, the idealization of private ownership, and the political and material support of fascist dictatorships? Or to quote F. D. Roosevelt;
The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism — ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power.
Franklin D. Roosevelt, April 29, 1938. Message to congress.
However, I do broadly agree with your description of the suicidal unions.
@ Captain Cavemen
I am sorry if you felt my last question to you was a personal attack, made by some raving cybernat. I actually appreciate your presence and counter-point, and do not want to discourage you from further comment here. I did notice, however, that you took the easy way out of not answering my other questions.