Wings Over Scotland

Hmm.

So according to numpty Pumpty Martin Sheffield is now, apparently, in S******d. I wonder how this information has gone down in Sheffield. 😀

What a lack of education some people portray on online.
Would these comments be shared face to face in a civil society , I doubt it , come on grow a pair

Godwins Law, or SNP BAAAADDDD

I don’t trust the meeja these days so I went online and Googled ‘hypocrisy’.

I was right.

O/T James Landale, Beeb lead political reporter’s closing gambit on his Westminster coverage of EVEL for BBC News at Ten: quote, “…so England has as stronger voice, the SNP has another grievance”. They ain’t even trying to conceal it anymore – hidden in plain sight minus the hidden bit.

In the case of the BBC, doesn’t it do the work of war criminals? You can actually spell out a case, in detail, for the SNP councillor, that *should* stand up in court. But in any case Goebbels is often used very loosely to describe any propagandist.

However I’m not sure that ‘Nuremberg’ is ever used so flippantly. And does any one know exactly what aspect of the SNP rally is supposed to resemble the Nuremberg rallies? Or are all rallies by their nature sinister?

Maybe Martin is referring to the ridiculous but popular claim that Scotland is a one-party state, a term I thought applied only to countries with a one-party constitution, and not to a region (sorry, but Scotland is just that constitutionally) where a majority support one party. Do we have one-party boroughs too, one-party village councils?

It is getting to the stage that they believe there is no limit to how shit they can treat Scotland, as they’re convinced that no matter what they do to us we don’t have the balls to tell them where to go.

I am, along with many others, waiting on the SNP and the SG reaction to the quite obvious concerted actions of the unionist establishment in the build up to the Scottish elections. If they are not careful in their strategy and tactics, there may be a nasty surprise outcome come May.
People deserve a response to the unionist drive.

Okay, so people like Iain Martin are masterful in the production of keech. But we control the direction of the fan.

A n other right wing nut job. Bloody hell how many of them are there out there. This goes all the way to the head right wing nut job. No not

link to twitter.com

This right wing nut job

link to twitter.com

He’s actually quite scary but even so.

“Bernays had a particular gift for the marketing strategy called the “tie-up” or “tie-in”. In this strategy, one venue, opportunity, or occasion for promoting a consumer product, for example, radio advertising, is linked to another, say, newspaper advertising, and even, at times, to a third, say a department store exhibition salesroom featuring the item, and possibly even a fourth, such as an important holiday, for example Thrift Week.”
link to archive.is

Substitute, for example, a newspaper article, linked to a radio news item, linked to a FMQ and possible also a Daily Politics or Great Debate or Newsnight question. Voila – the “tie in”.

Blow for Sturgeon!

All of which goes to support my contention that we have to raise the bar and start campaigning on our own issues and fighting the battles we can win on grounds we chose ourselves.

These are not the SNP record in Government, no matter how fine that might be because it will not be portrayed as anything other than a disaster, but the fact that Scotland is an ancient nation with a clever population and huge natural resources which can do much better if it is in control of its own future.

If we establish that we are self supporting with a potentially very successful future we win the next referendum. That is all

I find the likes of Iain Martin & Alex Massie to be particularly offensive – their anti-Scottish, pro-British diatribes are despicable peppered as they are with outright untruths and spin. They have nothing positive to say about anything.

They also seem to attempt to disguise their own self-loathing with a pseudo superiority complex and are only ‘satisfied’ whilst talking Scotland and her people down.

As said above, ‘projection’ pretty much nails it.

@Capella,

I had a similar discussion with one of our senior campaigners this evening.

We always thought the better together stuff was coordinated (badly) but we reckoned this has gone to a higher level altogether.

High level coordination between the BBC, Right Wing MSM in England, MSM in Scotland, Labour and Tory Parties in order to Stop the SNP wining a majority in SE16.

This is an all out political attack to discredit the democratically elected Scottish Government and will only ramp up owner the coming months.

However, on the plus side his canvassing results show folk are not buying it – even die hard labour folk are now getting sick of this onslaught and turning SNP.

SNP1.
SNP2.

@galamcennalath says: 22 October, 2015 at 10:25 pm:

” … So to whom exactly is this Iain Martin targeting the shite he writes

I dunnow, galamcennalath, but he sure as hell reminds me of that old comic sea-side postcard. The big fat lady is saying to her big fat lady friend, (as they look at a great big fat elephant), “Just ignore it, Mabelle and it’ll go away”.

Daily Heil right wing nut job Quentin Letts currently summing up right wing nut job Andrew Neil’s BBC Politics show but somehow they probably wont be all toryboy light hearted over EVEL, or even mention it. Toryboys, if stuff what you do might be a tad dodgy, don’t mention it. China in, tax credits out, steel jobs out, EVEL didnt happen right.

@ Hoss
The antidote seems to be exposing the lies as widely as possible. This site is doing a fantastic job of shining the light on the nefarious methods of the PR merchants. Or “journalists” as they are commonly known. No wonder Stu is so unpopular with the corporate media.

Just noticed a Freudian slip of my own at 10.46. “Pubic Relations” should, of course, have been “Public Relations” Apologies to Ernest Bernays!

Handandshrimp,

Those with the power hold the tower, those with the support rock the Fort!

O/T

Andrew Neil thoroughly debunked (the video):

link to tinyurl.com

Spread it far, spread it wide.

Re Andrew Mclean @12.10

Actually the unionists, at least some, are starting to resemble the far right. The media, and establishment attack on the SNP, our democratically elected government, seems to be stepping up apace. They need to portray the SNP as a rogue regime in order to justify any means they may have to deploy in order to stop an SNP majority in 2016.

Ok I have watched a few episodes of ‘Stargate’, but I am seriously concerned about the anti Scotland thing going on South of the border. We are a serious threat to westmonsters agenda.

Some might even think a takeover of Holyrood would be justified, stranger things have happened!

Ok night all, before I really get carried away. :))

@R-type
“Iain Martin (who?) is a wanker.”

Given his twitter post, that us a pretty amazing presumption that he could find his dick.

The unionists Orange Order rallies are much more like Nuremberg.Silly Billys.

@Graham Harris

“This behaviour is known as “projection”; a habit of accusing others of doing something despite being a product of the person making the accusation.”

If the man said that in front of me, I would tell him he’s being an arse. That’s the behavior, as far as I can see. 🙂

@Macart
EVEL is not the main item on the BBC news, and it’s not the main item of news (online) on the Herald, Scotsman or Record.

Just goes to show how important Parliamentary democracy is to them 🙁

Now we know how the red Indians felt

Good morning my fellow Scots, we are now officially,

“Second Class Citizens”.

Like Peter Wishart’s proposal to introduce a Bill whereby we get Scots Votes For Scots Laws which will return / devolve powers if a majority of Scots MPs vote for any measure in UK Parliament and is then ratified by the Scottish Parliament.

Contrary to English Nationalist complaints, Scottish MPs do not have a vote on devolved matters but the unelected Lady Mone of Mayfair now has more say on English matters that may affect Sotland, such as student tuition fees for Scots students at English Unis, than the 59 elected Scottish MPs.

Evil EVEL was introduced by David Cameron as a response to Scotland voting NO to self determination despite knowing that until then SNP MPs operating a self denying order on purely English Bills, but it also shafts the Tory Better Together allies Labour for good as they can never again govern by unless they win a majority of English seats which is very unlikely particularly when the proposed boundary changes will notionally deprive Labour of 20 plus seats in England.

But here’s what Labour’s main MP on EVEL debate Chris Bryant MP said in Westminster

EVEL could give “Scots another cause for grievance. And God knows they’ve never needed a cause for grievance”

Broad shoulders and all that, Better Together eh? Aye Right.

No wonder most voters think that the Labour Party is now irrelevant in Scotland.

As Tommy Sheppard MP for Edinburgh East says:
The proposals themselves involve an additional consent stage where English MPs will have to meet and give their consent. Effectively this means we get asked to step outside whilst they have a discussion. But crucially, at this stage English MPs could kill a proposal stone dead and we would get no further debate on the matter. When I pointed this out, quoting the proposed clause (84 N (4) if you can be bothered) you could see Tory MPs scouring the order paper to check. I genuinely think many of them did not realise this.

link to tommysheppardmp.scot

Not a word about EVEL on the BBC website this morning. How’s that for Public Service Broadcasting.

The BBC – Scotland’s public enemy No 2.

With the introduction of EVEL, is this an opportune moment to recall the fragrant Rowling’s comment that, with a No vote, we would ensure that we were never in a stronger position to call the shots on the constitution?

Perhaps she’s unavailable for comment as she’s done as was suggested to her earlier in the week.

EVEL being discussed on Radio Scotland at 9 a.m.

Call 0500 92 95 00. Text 80295.

Email morningcallscotland@bbc.co.uk

EVEL, statements from ..

Federal Brown, Flipper Darling, Curran, the Alexander non twins, JKR …. and dozens of others. Nothing.

They had plenty to say 18 months ago. Silence now. Are they proud of their contributions?

O/T links

link to linkis.com

link to mediameditations.wordpress.com

link to m.help.talktalk.co.uk

link to thecanary.co

Artist taxi driver…

link to youtube.com

John King at 6:30

Just a point they are native americans, or first peoples.

when we have a national anthem that once contained and in some minds still do the lines “and rebellious Scots to crush” they have to quote “Our music teacher makes us sing patriotic songs with lyrics like, ‘pilgrims’ pride; land where my fathers died; let freedom ring.’ This is offensive to me,” said Lakota Dimond (Hunkpapa Lakota).
For a rather interesting similarity to Scotland today, and the so called extinguishing lie, look at this link in the FAQ section on sovereignty! link to niea.org

Finally for propaganda and the american dream?, the word Squaw, is a pejorative term for the female genitalia, the british nationalist press BNP, like to insult us but have not yet sunk to calling our women folk, cunts!

To be honest, I think this style of attack from the media and certain ‘key figures’ on the Union side will continue for the foreseeable future. No one is going to admonish them. No one is going to be sacked. We can name and shame as many of these people as we want, but at the end of the day, they will still be around. The likes of Blair McDougall, Ian Smart and Euan McColm as examples are basically going nowhere.

These folk can mock, deride and curse the SNP as well as all Yes Supporters as much as they want. No one is going to rein them in. Kezia made that clear when it came to Smart.

However, there is just one flaw for them all. They shouldn’t be shouting and finger pointing at the SNP or the Yes supporters about the real possible ending of the Union; they should be worried about the folk pulling the strings in their own camp.

Because after yesterday’s vote over EVEL, there is no way these guys can stop the growing anger and the shake of the heads when people in Scotland realise what is really going on down at Westminster.

On one hand, the Scottish people are told that they are part of a ‘family of nations’ and that Scotland is an equal partner with England thanks to the Act of Union.

Then they realise the true reality of it all when it comes to ‘the Union’.

They get told that ‘the vow has been delivered’ nonsense. They will soon cotton on as to what EVEL really means. They are about to get 4 nuclear submarines dumped in their back yard (it’ll happen …no matter what …it’ll happen). They have the threat of being taken out of the EU even though they were told only remaining in the UK would protect their EU status. They watch as London continues to spend vast sums of money on itself while food banks remain, the NHS in both countries are in crisis, child tax credits are cut and industries collapse leading to redundancies.

All of this matters to the Scottish people. And slowly, they are realising that this is not equality; that this is not fairness, and that Scotland only matters to London when it needs something from that nation. Day by day, a very small trickle of people in Scotland shake their heads and think ‘enough is enough’. Each day, a small portion of people become aware of the real state on the Union. They are sick of it. They want something else …and yes, they are moving more to the thought of independence.

And for the likes of McDougall, McColm and Smart …there is nothing they can do about that but point fingers, foam at the mouth and whine about SNP perceived failings. They can’t stop the trickle of people wanting something better. And while they stick daft comments on Twitter, it seems that they have not comprehended that it is their own side that is damaging their beloved Union.

They go on about ‘Separatists’. Well, to them, I’ll happily point out that the biggest set of separatists can be found in one section within Westminster halls that contain all the Unionist parties …and there they will find the biggest set of separatists of them all known as the Conservative Party, whom yesterday, turned a percentage of the peoples of the UK into second-class citizens when it comes to sitting in those hallowed halls.

I believe it is very unlikely that the people whom Mr Cameron obeys, have not thought through their current strategy to the end. EVEL is only a part of that strategy.
It will include a willingness to use military force without hesitation, should Scotland adopt a policy of
non-co-operation.
There’s simply too much money at stake just to let Scotland walk away with it all and become another Norway.
England has too much to lose.

You know it makes sense.

EVEL is another divisive ploy by this appalling government.

Re EVEL,some of these 59 Scottish MPs are not even 2nd class MPs

If any of them are Roman Catholic,then the Act of Settlement makes them 3rd Class.Same goes for the rest of the Scottish people.

What a lovely inclusive, melting pot is Great Britain.

Thing is they had EVEL anyway due numbers. What a silly silly law.
Wonder if any SLAB (excuses for) politicians will now come out for indy.

BBC got hand picked texters and callers today. It is rather obvious.

Is EVEL contrary to The Treaty of Union ?

If so, can we crowd fund a legal challenge to repeal the Treaty of Union?

Will Podmore 9:21 am

Wrote: “EVEL is another divisive ploy by this appalling government.”

Well this is new!

Let me guess Will, you are not one of the 55% of English voters in the GE that voted right of centre? You don’t want any additional democracy in England because you don’t like what the democratic majority want in England?

sensible Dave,

Ok I get your point, actually I would go further, I don’t want any Scots voting at all in westminster. It’s long past time that england looked after its own affairs, we have been helping you out for far too long! Time to grow up and make your own way in life! Don’t be afraid, getting us to hold your hand at every turn hasn’t worked out!

probable that I am out of kilter with some here but I want EVEL MAX.

Like many regular Wingers, I have, on occasions, wished serious harm on sensibledave.

However, his post at 9.40am is, if I may say so, a very sensible and clear setting-out of the position on EVEL.

Prior to the re-establishment of the Scottish Parliament, and the establishment of the Belfast and Cardiff Assemblies, there were frequent occasions in the Commons, whereby the Scottish MPs or Welsh or Northern Irish members, sat as a Northern Irish, Scottish or Welsh Grand Committee, to discuss matters purely within their bailiewick.

English members could, as I understand it, attend these Grand Committee meetings, could speak, but could not vote. Assuming this will be the case with the English Grand Committee stage of “English Only” bills, I don’t have a problem with EVEL.

It is not as if Scottish MPs, even if unanimously against proposed legislation, could ever overturn an English majority in favour – that’s democracy, Westminster style.

What does stink, is the way this Tory government is trying to sneak it through via changing standing orders.

It will pass, but, one would hope, when the incumbent Speaker stands down, that a non-English MP might be elected in succession, if only as a check and balance. However, I do not see the Tories allowing this to happen.

An English parliament, separate from the House of Commons, and elected by some form of PR is still the ideal, but, don’t hold your breath for this happening.

The English Parliament will come, however, within a decade – once we have Independence.

The question nobody is asking is – Why Sheffield?

Camy -see my post at 9.44

No TD. You are missing the point. The whole of the House of Commons has to pass the bill. All MPs. All Parties.

Life for English foxes just got a whole lot more dangerous sensible.

Scotland’s on its way. Tally ho sensibledave.

Its why it’s all been buried as deep as insanely possible by English media in their Scotland region.

Helena Brown 9:59 am

Normally Helena, I would understand whatever point you are trying to make and then, if I disagreed with it, I would make my argument. On this occasion though, I have no idea what your comment has to do with the rights or wrongs of EVEL – so I can’t.

sensibledave at 10:05

I chose my words very carefully. Scottish MPs would be excluded from the Grand Committee which would make a decision to veto the bill or not. I am not missing the point at all.

But you are clearly missing the point about this shambolic arrangement creating two classes of MP. You are clearly missing the point about the arrogance of the UK government. You are clearly missing the point about the further alienation of the Scottish people.

Of course, those of us who support independence for Scotland have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand we are outraged at this latest example of colonial rule of our country from London. On the other, this act is so blatant that it will win a few more No voters over to our side. We don’t need too many people to change to get to our target 60%.

“When a bill is introduced in the Commons, the Speaker will be required to ‘certify’ whether the bill, or parts of it, relates exclusively to England, or England and Wales.”

Which is preposterous. It took many MPs and a lot of time to determine which issues should be devolved to Scotland. And now one individual MP (who happens to sit in an English contituency) can decide at their whim whether something is an English-only issue?

Funny how the Scotland Act is an English only issue, huh.

Seriously, you’re an imbecile.

So Scottish MP`sAs the Americans clapping in parliament is headline news throughout the sewer that is the Scottish MSM but when at the same parliament the English vote to make the representatives of the citizens of Scotland second class and impotent we hear/read absolutely nothing.

`No representation` was the catalyst that lost England the American colonies.

JLT 10.11

“What does it mean?
– Scottish MPs will become second-class citizens in the House of Commons. These EVEL plans exclude MPs from Scotland, and from other areas outside England, from voting on legislation that could have consequentials and effects on other parts of the UK.”

… only if the Bill is passed by The House of Commons – including Scottish MPs

“– There are also financial implications – as decisions taken for England only can lead to changes to Scotland’s budget from the UK Government.”

… only if the Bill is passed by The House of Commons – including Scottish MPs

“– These plans also put the Speaker in a position where he needs to make political decisions, with no clear procedure about how he will make decisions on ‘certifying’ a bill as England only.”

…. But if The House of Commons (including Scottish MPs) thinks the Speaker is wrong, they wont pass the Bill!

“What could it affect?
– Many issues which may appear to be ‘England-only’ can often have knock-on consequences in terms of Scotland’s public finances – for example decisions on NHS spending. The SNP would look to vote against any privatisation of the NHS to protect Scotland’s budget as well as retaining the NHS as a proper public service in England.”

… only if the Bill is passed by The House of Commons – including Scottish MPs

– Any plans and subsequent legislation to build a third runway at Heathrow would also appear only to relate to England, but will have a huge knock-on effect in Scotland.

… but the whole of the House of Commons have to vote for the knock on affect. The Grand Committee can only agree to it.

“So …don’t start. You know fine well that a breach of the Union has taken place here. If you want an ‘English Parliament’, then build a separate building, fill it with English MP’s and do what the rest of the UK has done instead of abusing the systems at Westminster.”

…. Poppycock!

And if you’re going to quote the facts, then quote them in their entirety. Don’t play us for fools or believe us to be idiots. If you have no interest in independence then go and scuttle off somewhere and join one of the Tory, Labour or UKIP forums. I’m sure you’ll be warmly welcomed there with your points of view!

… and you JLT, need to read and understand what the SNP web site is telling you – in essence:

1. English Only laws will only be passed if the duly elected representatives of the people of the whole of the UK (including Scottish MPs) want to pass them.

2. English Only laws can only be vetoed by a majority of duly elected English MPs

If you don’t think that is fair – then there is nothing more I can say to you.

sensibledave says:
23 October, 2015 at 10:05 am

Are you not forgetting that the English MP’s can overule Scotland right now,at any time. I will assume you can count.

Our MP’s effect a miniscule number of bills,being outvoted at every turn.In light of that,English MP.s already have the power.
What EVEL does is exclude our MP’s from protesting, but wait, is that not what democracy is meant to be. There is little doubt these changes to the UK parliament will badly effect Scotland, as the Tories want it to do.

This will denegrate Scotland,that has to be the reason.
Democracy,if it ever existed in the UK is firmly nailed down now.
It is not allowed and we are to be punished and robbed for daring to try and apply it. Tick Tock!

Scot Finlayson says:at 10:28 am
`No representation` was the catalyst that lost England the American colonies.”

Excellent point, so my tax will pay, in part, for english only items, that I have no democratic representation for. this is not just a moot point, Englands MPs could vote in policies that would have a dramatic effect of the financial stability of the UK. ‘True Sons of Liberty’ the end is near for this bastard union

Scottish MP`s ridiculed for clapping in parliament is headline news throughout the sewer that is the Scottish MSM but when at the same parliament the English vote to make the representatives of the citizens of Scotland second class and impotent we hear/read absolutely nothing.

`No representation` was the catalyst that lost England the American colonies.

If you don’t think that is fair – then there is nothing more I can say to you.

If only. sensible, EVEL, tax credit slashed, Smith Commision PAYE tax hikes, all designed to completely fcuk Scotland and ofcourse SNP Scots.gov, get their SLabour goon show back in power again, for ever and ever amen.

And that’s just what its obviously going on in broad daylight.

Here’s future Lord Adam Tomkins, Ljubljana West on what EVEL really means for the future of England in Scotland

link to notesfromnorthbritain.wordpress.com

EVEL is not a mere tidying-up measure. It is, on the contrary, likely to have profound constitutional consequences. Whilst the Government’s proposals are confined to law-making, if the principle of EVEL takes root, it could in due course lead to a desire for other aspects of parliamentary business with a separate and distinct effect in England becoming subject to the need for explicit English consent.

There are Departments of State, for example, whose business directly affects only or mainly England (or England and Wales) (the Departments of Education, Communities and Local Government, and Health are examples).

Should the Secretary of State (and Ministers of State?) of these departments be required to represent English constituencies? Or, as a lesser measure, should their appointments be subject to the consent of a majority of MPs representing seats in England? Should the select committees that scrutinise these departments be composed only of MPs representing constituencies in England (or England and Wales)?

Is the great Professor Smirky wrong sensible?

Wonder how every unionist politician will answer the question about how the campaigned, lied, threatened to secure a NO vote last year, and how they now feel about that vote meaning that Scotland, her people and elected representatives are now second class.

Sensible dave

… only if the Bill is passed by The House of Commons – including Scottish MPs”

Ok you may not know, but we Scots are a small minority in Westminster, even if all our MPs were to vote, it would matter not a jot, we are sick of the Tyranny of the majority who don’t have our interests at heart.
We wish for a better future, and sorry that does not include you! Not that we wish you ill, we just don’t want to be shackled to you anymore, it is not healthy for either of us.
The bedrock of democracy in westminster is that all mps are equal, even the position Prime minister is a fallacy, there is no such man, he is not real, all he is is a PM. And that is the nub of the argument, either all in or all out! My vote is all out!

Ian Murray confirms Scottish,Welsh,N Irish MPs are 2nd class

Commenting on last night’s Commons vote, Shadow Scotland Secretary Ian Murray MP said:

“Today, the Government have put a wrecking ball through the constitution with a measure that will only serve to weaken our democracy. For the first time there will now be two tiers of MPs, and unelected members of the House of Lords will have more power than some elected MPs. Today is yet more evidence that David Cameron is governing in the interests of his rebel backbenchers and not the country as a whole.

EVEL:

Suppose God forbid Ian Murray were to be elevated to leader of the Labour Party and then Labour swept the board in a great victory in the next GE

Poor old Ian as new Prime Minister couldn’t vote on purely English matters but here’s the thing neither could his 59 Scottish Labour MPs thereby diluting any power the Labour party might have in the future, exactly how the Tories planned

So if the Labour party in Scotland has any brains and wants to survive it had better start supporting Independence or it has no future North and South of the border

Baroness Moan of Bra’sburgh now has more say over what goes on in Scotland than Kezia

Funnier by the minute Kezia with a YES banner and a Saltire

Read Prof T’s thing sensible? Its a great essay isnt it.

“If the Government want their “relatively modest proposal” to stand the test of time, they would be well advised to proceed with less haste and more care. I welcome the idea of English votes for English laws. I would welcome it more enthusiastically if I thought that its consequences and constitutional importance had been fully thought through.”

Toryboy world ignored Prof T on NOT rushing eh.

Also sensible

“In short, the Scottish block grant is calculated by reference to certain departmental spending in England. If such spending is cut in England, so too is the block grant. Now, legislation itself does not change departments’ budget provision.”

So sensible, toryboy England slash and burn continues, Scotland now has NO vote.

sensible dave,
Typo not PM, not real! Ment to type MP 🙂

The votes of Scottish MPs made a difference to the outcome of divisions 0.65% of the time since 2001, according to the House of Commons Library’s research.

English MPs have 99.35% success rate in getting their own way and they want more?

What kind of ‘union’ was that?

Labour research found that
“Labour, voters north of the Border no longer feel angry about the party “taking Scotland for granted”. But this is only because they think the party is “simply an irrelevance”.

I pretty much have to same feelings towards ‘journalist’ like Iain Martin.

Can you help?

Did Ian Murray take part in the EVEL debate?

link to peter-arnott.blogspot.co.uk

Sunniva 10:59 am

You wrote “Couldn’t MPs just defy EVEL and turn up at ‘English only’ debates and attempt to be heard (one way or another….) and attempt to vote? It would make great political theatre if they did. That was what Parnell and the Irish National Party attempted to do in the 19th century by philibustering”

… I think that comment just about sums up the whole debate.

Sunniva hasn’t got a clue what EVEL is about – and yet he is against it!

The NHS budget in England is the yardstick for determining the SNHS budget via Barnett. Prior to yesterday Scots MPs could vote on the ENHS. And rightly so because if, for example, the Tories proposed cutting the ENHS budget that cut will have a knock-on (adverse) effect to Scotland’s Block Grant.

Where Scots MPs prior to E-Day had at least some influence on this, they now have no say at all on how the Scottih Block Grant is calculated. In this regard, Scots MPs now have no voice in Westminster on matters that will impact upon their constituents.

We need to be yelling this from the rooftops all across Scotland. The UK is heading towards tyranny if this situation is not resolved and allowed to continue.

sensibledave says:

Well democracy has just been screwed over by Westminster.
English MP’s already have the power. It is Scotland they want to harm, however they try and spin it.

JLT 11.13

You wrote: “Understand one thing …everyone here wants England to have its own Parliament.”

I do. And I recognise that it colours your view on every issue because you think an English Parliament will help your cause for Scottish Independence – which is why you are unable assess EVEL in any sensible way.

You wrote: “Hoping that the Speaker ‘may’ keep non-English MP’s in the room isn’t democracy. It’s political Russian Roulette. We just don’t know when we get up that day, and see if we will be allowed in the chamber to debate on a sensitive ‘English’ issue.

…. I will try and keep my patience. THE UK PARLIAMENT (INCLUDING SCOTTISH MPS) WILL DEBATE, THROUGH THREE READINGS, TO PASS ANY BILL ON “ENGLISH ONLY” LAWS.

sensibledave says:
23 October, 2015 at 11:09 am
TD 10.56

I think, slowly, one by one, you are beginning to understand the truth.

In fairness dave you are correct in what you say.

What you don’t say however is that there are 59 Scottish MPs and 533 English MPs with currently an absolute Tory majority.

Therefore English MPs can overrule Scottish MPs any time they like (or are Whipped) as happened during the passage of the Scotland Bill.

As things now stand no Scottish MP of whatever Party could effectively be a Prime Minter, Chancellor or Cabinet Minister, neither could they become Shadow equivalents.

So there you have it, Scots MPs have been reduced to second class MPs on a nod.

The interesting bit is how can Fluffy Mundell (not Mun-dell) keep his Viceroy’s post. I wait with anticipation on that one.

link to en.wikipedia.org

Proud Cybernat said at 1:12 am:-
“O/T
Andrew Neil thoroughly debunked (the video):
link to tinyurl.com
Spread it far, spread it wide.”

Well worth a Second Hearing/Viewing.
Easy to understand graphics and commentary. 🙂
Excellent.
The Movers and Shakers at the BBC in Scotland could even make sense of this.

link to tinyurl.com

This has an amazing counterpart in American history, The stamp act was a pretty innocuous piece of law, Westminster put it through without much debate, after all it was in their eyes an administrative tidying up!
But it caused so much consternation in the colony , that the scraped the act one year later, that could happen with EVEL, But by that time the die had been cast!

In this EVEL the pretence of a united parliamentary system has ended, we scots never voted for Thatcher but we got her! we never voted for trident but we got them, we never voted for austerity but we have got it!

We did vote to remain in this basterd union, God help us, we did! Now we will pay, did we really believe a writer of children’s stories, that we would be in a strong position?, or the liar Gordon Brown, and his Vow, FFS he was a back bencher, his ego and big fat lying mouth smothered truth in the last days of the referendum debate. where was EVEL, oh yes, liar Brown, did David Cameron mention that to you, because the first thin out of his mouth after the no vote was EVEL, therefore he was planning this for a long time, vote no Scotts, cos I got a big surprise for you!

Hi all,

Correct me if I am wrong but surely the changing of the rules in Westminster yesterday, will when it becomes law, take away the universality of all MPs.

It may make it much easier for the exclusion of other groups of MPs because they are trying to vote on areas outside of their concern.

Could this not be used to limit who could vote on the Scotland Bill for example. Can it be said to set a precedent in any way?

Only asking.

“Devolution will kill nationalism stone dead”. Aye, that worked in the past didn’t it! Tee hee. Unionists are killing the so-called united kingdom. More please.

I tried to get through on the phone in this morning as I couldn’t believe the utter claptrap from the supporters of EVEL. It was nothing more that an attack on the SNP.

No mention of the fact that Labour voted against.

I wanted to make the point that the vote was nothing to do with Scotland but to stop Labour ever getting enough votes to control Westminster. Without 50 or so Scottish seats, a future Labour government has a snowballs chance In hell of passing Engish only laws. The Tories have stitched them up a treat.

Never got through of course and I missed the last 10 mins of the phone in as a result.

‘Dave McEwan Hill says:
The fact that English MPs can’t vote in the Scottish Parliament being used as some sort of justification for this is bogus.
Scots MPS can’t vote in the Scottish Parliament either.’

Ruby replies
Being that the Unionist parties at Holyrood are just branch offices being told what to do by English MPs then it is not true to say that English MPs can’t vote in the Scottish Parliament. Sure they can’t be there pysically to vote they just tell their branch office assistants how to they want them to vote.

sensibledave at 11.41

Rubbish. What would be the point of “English only laws” then if they are not English only laws

@sensibledave,

If what you say is true, why has the Speaker to decide what is only English ? Should it not be obvious ?
The Speaker as we know is” impartial”

C’mon Dave, open your eyes.It is a stitch up from beginning to end in favour of the English master race.
The reason you cannot or will not see it is that you are part of the problem.

Quite a thoughtful piece from the Economist which is certainly not a separatist rag

“It is wrong that Scottish MPs get to rule on bills concerning, say, only English hospitals. But banning them from participating in such votes would create the risk of two separate governments; one English, one British (in the event of a Labour government reliant on its Scottish MPs, for example). So EVEL rightly gives English MPs a veto, but also requires all bills to pass the House of Commons as a whole. As compromises go, it could be worse.

Still, the risk of a “two-tier” Commons is real. In a chamber where all are notionally equal Scottish MPs will be less powerful than English ones. EVEL greatly inflates the role of the speaker, whose job it will be to decide whether a bill is English-only—and thus whether the English majority should wield a veto. In practice, he will generally rule on the side of Britishness. This, and the fact that further fiscal powers will soon travel north to Edinburgh (meaning that even budget votes could generate expectations of an English veto), will eventually render EVEL insufficient. It seems to me that this movie has two possible endings.

The first, happier one is federalisation. Giving England power over things that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland already control would clear the way to a Parliament and government in Downing Street responsible only for matters affecting all British citizens equally: foreign affairs, defence, monetary policy and so forth. An English Parliament risks exacerbating the problem that for centuries has been smothered in the mushy blur of Englishness and Britishness: the unworkable rivalry between any English government and a British one. But English devolution could yet take different forms. Sub-national authorities in England are already assuming powers unthinkable a few short years ago: Greater Manchester will soon run its own health service, for example. The long-term solution to Britain’s constitutional quandaries is probably a federal system in which Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds, Newcastle, Bristol, Cardiff, Southampton, Edinburgh and Belfast meet together, on equal terms, in London.

The second and more likely possible outcome is separation. English self-denial has long been the glue holding the union together. It is melting. Both EVEL and the broader rise in an English sense of identity (comprehensively outlined in a 2012 paper by the IPPR, a think-tank) suggest that the United Kingdom is experiencing a great normalisation. Its constutitional imbalance is finally asserting itself. A ship that has sailed forth for many years despite a strong tilt is finally listing towards the waves. Last year’s Scottish referendum—and the strong appetite for a rerun evinced at the recent Scottish National Party conference—suggests that it is already taking on water. EVEL may prove the point at which it tips too far; at which England’s reemergence accelerates and at which the ship capsizes”

“How English laws are passed is indeed a matter for the English”

No, it’s not, it’s a matter for the UK Parliament, involving all UK MPs.

If England wants the same kind of exclusivity their MPs claim the Scottish Parliament has, then an English devolved parliament based on a similar model to the Scottish one is what is needed. If that solution was and is deemed by Westminster to be good enough for Scotland, then it’s bloody well good enough for England.

And that English Parliament better not have more powers than Scotland’s, because that would be yet another obviously unfair settlement, and such unrelenting unfairness is what has driven Scottish independence to where it is today.

Sensible Dave

To a point you are right looking askew at this, as in effect it’s just a bit of tinkering with the constitutional arrangements, and yes as the SNP demonstrate, best keep out of the internal affairs of another nation, as they do with their self imposed exile when purely english matters are discussed.
But in only concentrating on the actual structure of EVEL you are missing the bigger picture in this you are unable, seemingly, to discriminate between a bicycle accident and the collapse of civilisation.

Ahh the trouble EVEL is going to cause in Westminster and beyond. And here’s the really stupid part, Scottish MP’s only make up 9% of the total at Westminster. England has an inbuilt and absolute majority no matter if the government is Labour or Tory.

Considering the problems it will cause for the Tories and Labour, the fact it will speed up Scottish independence and the fact that the legislative outcome will be no different, it truly must be one of the stupidest moves ever made by ANY Government anywhere, ever.

TD 11.47

You wrote “I think you are being disingenuous and you do actually get the point that Scottish MPs will be excluded from the English Grand Committee. This committee will have the power to veto legislation. It cannot initiate legislation, but the power to veto is considerable. If EVEL did not give power to English MPs, what would be the point?”

… to stop “English Only” laws being passed that the majority of English MPs don’t want passed.

Awful isn’t it!

Does EVEL mean that English MPs can pass bills that involve the spending of UK money on English projects?

Surely if this is the case then they would need to have their own parliament with their own budget?

All UK MPs no matter where their constituency is would have to have a say on where UK money is allocated.

I asked the wife for a twenty to but a few beers, she said no, then went out and bout herself a nice dress costing £70.

She’s my office for budget responsibility.