Unmuddied waters
We’ve had extremely poor internet at Wings HQ since Thursday of last week, which our telecoms company is trying to get to the bottom of. (We’re typing this on an iPhone via very flaky 4G.)
We’ll be back with you ASAP. In the meantime, we’re being baffled by this assertion from the Financial Times that’s been doing the social-media rounds again recently.
Um, that isn’t “difficult” at all. That’s what maritime borders are for. That’s why the UK took the precaution of stealing (or reclaiming, depending on where you’re looking at it from) thousands of square miles of Scottish waters in 1999.
But other than any possible attempts to renegotiate that boundary, there’s nothing to debate. One side of the line is ours. The other side is yours. The end. We’re not at all sure why the FT would ever try to pretend otherwise.
Difficult? I have never seen anything easier than this.
Not the kind of stuff I expect from the FT. But then, I am really gullible.
Unionists have a problem for every solution.
Perhaps the FT expects the Scottish Office these rights along with other Colonial Rights following Brexit
Means the oil price is going up.
Yup! Muddying the waters in advance of a further resource grab
Virgin media down in Airdrie well my area at least
It’s difficult in the same way negotiating the lease on Faslane is difficult – maybe the UK government believes a deal can be made with Scottish assets in return for co-operation in negotiations, but it is a scenario that exists only in the mind of some situation gamers in Whitehall / the Scottish Office.
Ah but it’s quite serious stuff you see. You Scotch folks wouldn’t understand such complexities.
Oil price, field expansion and productivity up and climbing… Huh!
Nope. No mystery. It’ll be a Ukanian bonanza as opposed to a Scottish albatross then. They truly are deplorably predictable.
No, I see what they mean. It’s like the financial sector in London, that’s going to be difficult to carve up. The FT too
Maritime borders are covered by international law, not what two politicians decided, The border set out by Dewar and Blair were by internal agreement, an Independent Scotland would take border back to where it belonged.
Aye, maybe the British nationalists are preparing for the worst – a YES vote in 2019/20, when those lucrative soft maritime borders suddenly become hard!. 🙂
I expect in that happy event, WM will try to “negotiate” a share of the oil reserves and holding on to their stolen bit. No chance – we will fight all the way for every square inch they have stolen.
If it doesn’t belong to them, it doesn’t belong to them. End of.
Does make you wonder just exactly what referendum they are referring too???
Two-faced is not descriptive enough. fork-tongued maybe more apt.
Is this all part of their frictionless order strategy?
Don’t tell me that the “Ruskies” are gunning for you as well Rev?!, or is it there friends in MI 5&6 !.
UNCLOS is your friend and the answer to any spilt of maritime resources.
link to un.org
“Okay, the story about oil and gas running out hasn’t worked. Let’s see if this one about not being sure what belong to Scotland, will scare them,”
There already is contention about Scottish Oil & Gas resources. Westminster keeps on mismanaging and misappropriating them. Illegally and secretly. More lies.
Scottish International exports £30Billion. Exports £40Billion. £10Billion to the rest of the UK? More is exported to the EU £11Billion. Plus £10Billion? In EU Grants and ECB investments, which could increase, without Westminster interference.
Excluding Oil & Gas.
I remember during the indyref campaign Mr Salmond was being interviewed by Jon Snow for Channel 4 news.
The subject of oil came up, of course, and Jon Snow all but jumped out of his seat when Mr Salmond said that 90% of the oil was ours. Clearly Mr Snow had never given the matter much thought and just considered that the North Sea in its entirety was England’s fiefdom to do with as they please.
And that pretty much sums up the attitude within the Westminster bubble.
Remember you borrowed my car in 1970 and forgot to bring it back? Can I have it back please?
No, it’s mine now. I have had to repair it several times and buy new tyres.
That will be the type of argument put forward.
The only unknown I can see for the value of exports would be, in the case of gas, how much rUK would charge for use of their pipeline system to flow Scottish Gas to the continent for export. A high transport charge would suppress the value of exported Scottish Gas. However, I’d expect Scotland to have the whip hand in any negotiations on this (rUK would be quite dependent on Scottish supplies of gas and renewable electricity) so not too hard to make a stab at the split.
As far as I know, Scottish Oil is all loaded onto ships for export, so no issue in working out the revenue there – 100% for Scotland.
To keep it simple. The Norwegians have an oil fund now. The UK should have an equivalent one.
10% of that is Scotland’s.
That is an additional claim by IScotland over ALL ELSE OWED!
Too stupid! I think not.
Talking of “waters” Rev, with the news that Cape Town is going to be the first world major city to ever run out of water, it is appropriate to point out that water will one day be perhaps more valuable than oil or gas.
Scotland has an abundance. Wonder who will try to take it too? Three guesses, though I suspect one will be sufficient.
There should be no negotiation on the subject of returning the 6000sq miles of our Scottish waters stolen by Westminster, to Scottish jurisdiction when we become an independent nation once again.
No if or buts.
We have learnt one fundamental lesson…. never ever underestimate the loyal BritNat media’s capacity to spin, fabricate, fake, or just repeat anti Scottish stories.
Robert Graham used a lovely phrase on the last thread … “the deluded leading the naive” …. which sums up the reality of the British Nationalism we see everyday be it their politicians, media, or voters.
Unless Westminster tries the old divide and rule tactic of trying to split off parts of Scotland e.g. Shetland.
Isn’t that quote from an old FT article (i.e. c.2012-14) that was recently doing the rounds on Twitter again? Not that it makes any difference to the logic of the claim, since literally nothing has changed in that regard.
On topic Off topic.
Re the posting from the Rev’s Phone… would it be an enormous surprise if the Internet upload speeds for a particular part of Bath became the worst in the United Kingdom.
Please excuse my tinfoil hat, LOL.
You could argue that most of the Norwegian oil reserves should belong to Scotland also. There is no continuous continental shelf (shallow sea) between Norway and the North Sea oilfields (Norwegian Trench is 700 m deep). Just sayin…. Ach the waters are muddy enough. Interesting history though – how the North Sea was divided up – apparently the British nationalists, in their eagerness to get a deal and claim the oil revenues, ended up ceding quite a bit too much to Norway. 🙁
Just give us back the 600 sq miles the Unionists secretly moved to English jurisdiction before devolution without any debate in the House of Commons.
Meanwhile our broadcasters continue to misinform over University applications. Again taking Labour Press Release at face value without any investigation into the facts of the matter.
The Ucas report clearly stated that”Scottish 18 year olds from the most disadvantaged areas are 67 per cent more likely to apply in 2018 than 12 years ago.”
Also read link to scoop.it
‘In Scotland, there is a substantial component (around one third of young full-time undergraduate study) where admissions are not processed through UCAS (see note at the end of this report). Consequently, for Scotland, this report reflects the trends in applications that are recruited through UCAS and not, as elsewhere in the UK, full-time undergraduate study in general.’
link to ucas.com
Jan 29 2014 is not recent!
Bob Mack says:
Boris Johnstone came up with a way to steal our water some time ago, it went like this.
The water will be taken from Scottish reservoirs by large pipes, laid to the nearest large English reservoir, then piped from these reservoirs in sequence to other of the same, then distributed to local reservoirs in the south of England. Job done.
I just remembered that with your post, but he did suggest that and it is likely still out there somewhere.
This snippet from the Financial Times perfectly illustrates the principal weapon deployed by Better Together/Project Fear during the first independence referendum campaign – doubt.
The rules governing this form of negative propaganda are very simple. Where there is doubt, exaggerate it. Take the normal uncertainties of life and massively overstate them. Hyperbolise them. Use the media to make the commonplace incertitudes that would otherwise pass unnoticed loom huge, dark and ominous in the minds of voters.
Where there is no doubt, create it. There is nothing at all “contentious” about the post-independence division of mineral rights. The land and maritime borders defining Scotland’s sovereign territory already exist. They are governed by international laws and conventions. Disputes are arbitrated by international bodies under well defined procedures. There is almost no scope for contentiousness. There is no meaningful doubt.
So lie about it! Create doubt where none exists. Where truth is inconvenient, manufacture a new truth which better serves the purposes of established power.
This is not to suggest a ‘conspiracy’ of any kind. It is vanishingly unlikely that there was an editorial meeting at which it was decided to purposefully generate doubt about ownership of oil in Scottish waters. It’s actually worse than that. The British media now do this kind of thing instinctively.
The dishonesty of the British media is not necessarily intentional and actively malign. It is just as likely to be unthinking and passively contemptuous.
To be honest isn’t that really what both Gulf wars were about? How to split (steal) oil and gas revenues
It is not the Tories or Westminster that has been exposed by all these sleight of hand, underhand, power grabbing shit, it is Labour, particularly in Scotland.
They left Scotland entirely exposed and worse actively moved against it when it seemed it might make decisions for itself. Witness Ian Davidson trying to put clauses into defence contracts so they would be lost if we became independent. They were lost anyway!
Blair and Dewar redrawing the maritime boundary to take sea waters from Scotland.
Voting against every amendment put forward by the SNP MPs that would have brought real powers to Scotland for the benefit of Scots.
The relentless whinging, cringing Labour suck ups in the Councils. The slimy Alistair Carmichael and Danny Alexander who did whatever they could for the Tories to keep control.
The billin pound contribution to the oil revenues is just a starter.
BP are looking to produce 100,000 barrels per day from new fields in the Moray Firth and west of Shetland, while Shell have just announced that the intend to invest billions in developing their North Sea acreage. Meanwhile Hurican Energy has found what is probably the biggest field for many years. There are riches indeed for an independent Scotland.
Leaving aside the quote is from an article in 2014, the quote isn’t as daft as it first appears. The median line would be the starting point of negotiations for the continental shelf split, however as Kemp points out in his memorandum to the Climate change committee that isn’t always how the final decision is reached. There are numerous examples of where other arrangements are made. The current North Sea Boundaries between Norway, the UK, Denmark, Germany, the Netherlands etc were all done by negotiation and arbitration after all.
So, given current production levels, and using the Kemp-Stephen methodology Scotland would have around 90% of production and 50% of oil and gas. ( not 100% as some claim )
It’s also important to understand that the boundaries would only determine where production is, It is probably safe to say that where the oil and gas is produced would have a direct impact on who’s ‘export’ it was.
Revenue ( i.e taxation ) would be more complicated though and would require some renegotiation and changes to legislation and corporate licenses. Oil, for example, is taxed using PRT, Corporation Tax and the Supplementary Charge. Of these, only PRT is ring-fenced per field. CT and the Supplementary charge are based on the extraction company. Currently, these companies cross what would be the new boundary…and as I am sure we are all aware, taxing multinationals across boundaries is a nightmare!
There would also have to be some sort of arrangement made on exploration and extraction licensing.
-Rab.
[…] snippet from the Financial Times, brought to our attention by Wings Over Scotland, perfectly illustrates the principal weapon deployed by Better Together/Project Fear during the […]
Les Wilson says:
Within their Union, yes they would simply ‘steal it’.
However, I can see water being a big export from iScotland in the future. Just like oil, gas, and electricity. Then, of course they would be paying for it with hard currency and it would appear in the ‘books’ as a genuine money earning export.
Brian Powell says:
5 February, 2018 at 11:29 am
It is not the Tories or Westminster that has been exposed by all these sleight of hand, underhand, power grabbing shit, it is Labour, particularly in Scotland.
Indeed, it is the British Nationalist Labour Party that has been, and remains, the biggest obstacle to Scottish independence. They are very clever at pretending to represent the people (a strategy which includes having useful idiots from the lower classes (Uncle Toms/ house scots) as Labour politicians). The real power lies with the English middle class). The Labour Party in Scotland has served the British Nationalist cause very well in the past 80 years. With a tuned-in electorate, however, it is becoming increasingly difficult for them to play this game and bamboozle the public continuously. They are down, but (as 2017 showed) not out and the pressure must be maintained to show them up for what they are (useful BritNat idiots for the Tories) until the penny drops with more and more people, finally reaching the tipping point.
It would help if SNP/SG spokespeople started calling them out – refer to them as “British Labour”. It may seem childish but it resonates big time with the less informed. Be relentless – it works. 🙂
Robert Kerr says:
5 February, 2018 at 11:01 am
To keep it simple. The Norwegians have an oil fund now. The UK should have an equivalent one.
They do, kind of, it’s called BP.
If there’s a perfect example of how tory UK and not tory Norway took very different oil and gas revenue choices, its how our chums in the south sold not Scots oil and gas companies and revenue to the City, that have become some of the worlds biggest corps ever.
Forbes 500 has BP at no.12 biggest in the world corps,
link to fortune.com
If you’re a BP shareholder, UK gov selling off BP was an incredible triumph, if you’re not, too bad.
Its the UKOK way.
BP, be part of it,
wiki says,
1979 to 1997
The British government sold 80 million shares of BP at $7.58 in 1979 as part of Thatcher-era privatisation.
This sale represented slightly more than 5% of BP’s total shares and reduced the government’s ownership of the company to 46%.
After the worldwide stock market crash on 19 October 1987, Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher initiated the sale of an additional GBP7.5 billion ($12.2 billion) of BP shares at 333 pence, representing the government’s remaining 31% stake in the company.”
Good old Snatcher Thatcher.
Norway gov still owns Statoil, the core of their various state oil pension funds.
link to statoil.com
BP North Sea are also horrific to work for, deadly basically.
But this how tory UKOK zone works.
Contrary to popular belief these little -bas- eh beavers in whitehall are not spending their day playing scrabble , they have an alloted task , this story will be glossed over as just someone’s thoughts and nothing to be concerned about .
These trusted civil servants are in place to protect the union , and this little piece is just laying the groundwork , testing the waters to gauge reaction .
Of course this work will be done in secret unlike any work done on behalf of the scottish government , everything they do is on a desk in london even before the SNP government get round to digesting it .
On this point i agree with rees mogg regarding the civil service , they are a tool to be manipulated and used by government , just not our scottish government where they are westminsters watchdog , if as a lot of tories believe any assessments or predictions are usually wrong , why keep doing them if they are so f/n useless is it just to give them something to do ? .
Every single institution in scotland including the civil service answers to london , it’s a wonder the SNP have managed to make any progress working under this microscope , the unionists are not as stupid as people believe they have this country trussed up and exactly where they want it they control almost everything .
I see the BBC are in full fake news mode over the UCAS report…again.
Aye heedtracker but earlier the tories sold Britoil, based in Glasgow, to BP.
Don’t waste time looking for details in Wiki, I tried but most has been expunged.
I posted some years ago that proper engineering for North Sea design could have taken off in Glasgow with Britoil HQ, and the two design houses, Humphries and Glasgow and Foster Wheeler all within walking distance of each other.
No chance!!!!.
Surely anyone can see that labour have been holding back the people in Scotland for years just look at what the SNP have delivered to the people in the short tome they have been in power compared to the so called people’s party who were in power for years and managed to send money back to Westminster while people were going to food banks and children were living in poverty well done Lord MACONNELL of the people’s party and to think when you here them do not have the decency to feel ashamed and as for the clowns who vote for them as they say there is no fool like an old fool
Sinky: ‘In Scotland, there is a substantial component (around one third of young full-time undergraduate study) where admissions are not processed through UCAS (see note at the end of this report). Consequently, for Scotland, this report reflects the trends in applications that are recruited through UCAS and not, as elsewhere in the UK, full-time undergraduate study in general.’
link to ucas.com
Remember, too, that a substantial proportion of higher education in Scotland is delivered by FE colleges (HNC/HND programmes), which is not UCAS-counted. In addition, there are many existing articulation agreements between colleges and universities that allow HNC/HND students to move straight into the second or third year of undergraduate degree courses. Again, not UCAS counted.
The people who start in FE colleges are more likely to be from lower income backgrounds.
Incidentally, the HE delivered through this route is not part of the figures when comparisons are made between Scotland and rUK.
Forget about the oil folks it belongs to China now
That’s Theresas new deal, she’s just sold Britain to China rather than make a deal with the EU, so you’ll have had yer Brexit to be replaced by selling chicken with noodles from your own personal street stall because the only folk who are going to benefit from this deal are the already billionaires like Theresas husband and his chums the richie rich folk
No deal with the EU because China wants to put the EU out of business along with every other country in favour of the new shiny Chinese Golden Wonder state
Watch as America starts lifting weights and talking in a deep voice and Russian faces become iron jawed as the fight for who’s got the biggest D..k ensues
Scotland? who are they? the Chinese will say
None of this is good
Robert Kerr says:
5 February, 2018 at 12:19 pm
Aye heedtracker but earlier the tories sold Britoil, based in Glasgow, to BP.
Its all been a perfect British storm of tory loot and pillage, all of it. British Gas also sold off, for peanuts ofcourse,
“The Conservative Government led by Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher introduced the Gas Act 1986, in which led to the privatisation of the company, and on 8 December 1986, its shares floated on the London stock market as British Gas plc.”
Don’t tell Sid, tell Sid? can’t remember.
All of it the greatest tory loot and pillage of what we all once owned and all of it sold as great British triumph by the great BBC gimp network brainwashing, hopefully.
Otherwise we really are as stupid as Rock says and we do fully deserve to live in rich get richer, poor get poorer toryboy teamGB.
Its interesting watching BBC Scotland gimp network today, still taking a long hard piss all over the giant new BP western Shetland basin fields coming on stream now.
If only because the Norwegians tell their oil and gas industry news rather differently, from massed ranks of beeb gimps in Pacific Quay.
A BBC UKOK propaganda coincidence, I’m sure.
link to statoil.com
The real question is whether Achmelvich lies on our side of the contended border or theirs?
O/T
Hi All,
I haven’t dropped in for a while as there hasn’t been much going on.
Just wanted to say bad luck with respect to the rugby.
The sell off of Britoil to BP was a disgrace. I visited the office several times when I was working for an Aberdeen service company. It was a proper oil company HQ with hundreds of staff operating five oil and gas fields. When BP got Britoil they promised to keep the Glasgow office operating. Within two years it was closed. No objection was raised by the Tory government.
As for boundaries between English and Scottish waters, this is utterly simple. The International Maritime Law is quite clear. Each maritime state has an economic zone extending 200 miles from its shore. Where this collides with another state’s boundary then the mid point between them is the boundary. There may be small adjustments for various reasons but these will be sorted out by arbitration. Under any circumstances Scotland will benefit from 90% of the oil revenues.
O/T
According to the BBC,Celtic Connections attendances are up,with one of the highlights being the Bothy Culture Show featuring Danny McCaskill (nice wee photo of Danny there).
FFS they don’t even know what he looks like and put up the photo of the other cyclist….yes that’s right…one of the most recognised Scots on the planet…..taking the urine or incompetent fools,you decide.
@Albaman says: 5 February, 2018 at 10:43 am:
“Don’t tell me that the “Ruskies” are gunning for you as well Rev?!, or is it there friends in MI 5&6 !.”
Nope: The entire Net was in trouble. Everything went down. Eventually connection to the net came back but Xbox Live announced you could now play a game on-line but the game would not record your progress but that would catch up when things got sorted out and back to normal.
I was off-line most of the day here in Fife.
Clicked on the image from the FT and to my surprise at the top of their page was this:
“Scots exports would be worth almost £100bn after independence.”
So there!
sensibledave says:
5 February, 2018 at 12:42 pm
O/T
Hi All,
Hi Sensible! good to see you back to crush the vile seps of your Scotland region.
Thanks again for Brexit, you tory zoomer:D
Hey sensible O/T kind of, petrol’s jumping up to the most expensive in the world now, here in the teamGB zone, YES, we’re no.1.
But anyhoo sensible d, you’re a good example of toryboy imperial master er, stuff, in Scotland, so do you know when I will have the EU fleg rubbed of my UKOK driving licence?
Its a huge EU flag next a even huger union jack, on my great Brit credit card sized licence sensible.
I only ask you sensible D because you’re a toryboy and youre in charge up here, in your Scotland region.
Flegs and the UK, a very hot combo, everywhere Britnat rule Britannia wise sensible.
Dr Jim @ 12.31
You are closer to the truth than you may realise when you say China owns the North Sea oil
link to uk.businessinsider.com
Hi Dave,
Don’t think luck played much of a part. The team didn’t gel and played like puddings.
I think you miss their dilemma,
Will Westminster just claim all of it,
And advise that a conquered Colony
Doesn’t deserve a mention alongside
Any Tory Cash Cow.
That quote is from the FT dated 29th Jan 2014, I guess that was a time when the whole UK establishment was behind the times and institutionally biased. I think the FT did some very good articles after that once it had woken up and done some actual research, it was one of the msot accurate of the MSM.
link to ft.com
You are closer to the truth than you may realise when you say China owns the North Sea oil
Never mind China, George Osborne made a lot of Scots oil companies jump out of their UKOK skins, when he raided them for the 2012 London Olympics, that needed some hard cash, for their London 2012 London Olympic bills.
“UK Chancellor George Osborne made a £2 billion tax raid back in 2011, which meant that the North Sea’s marginal tax rates were raised to up to 81%.”
You see, this is why its not UK oil and gas, its there to pay for lots of UK stuff, including their little treats, like the London 2012 Olympic Games, which were a load of shite too, excluding the mass doping of “top” Olympiads:D
@Wingers
If the Rev’s internet is unusable at the moment, it means he’ll be unable to do the depth of research he normally does.
Could I suggest for those who follow his Twitter, that if people see a topic he’s interested in, they post something here, others of us do some research, post it here, and whoever tweets on Twitter puts a Tweet up there for the Rev?
Probably a good thing to do anyway, spread the load – I’ve seen one or two doing that on Rev’s feed anyway.
And another thing. We could use below the line on Wings for a “masterclass”. Tips and methods of finding information. Someone put me straight on advance search for date ranges which is very useful, and there are other tips for using google (or whatever search engine).
Information is our asset, misinfomation and disinfomation is what the Unionists use, and the better and more accurate we are, the better for Indy. The Truth Shall Set Us Free.
Wings Tip: I found that FT link just by putting part of that quote into google, and the FT link came up top of the list of results.
BBC Reporting Scotland still headlining their misleading report on Ucas applications.
Disappointed that the BBC or even The National doesn’t report that
The Ucas report clearly stated that”Scottish 18 year olds from the most disadvantaged areas are 67 per cent more likely to apply in 2018 than 12 years ago.”
Or that
In Scotland, there is a substantial component (around one third of young full-time undergraduate study) where admissions are not processed through UCAS (see note at the end of this report).
Consequently, for Scotland, this report reflects the trends in applications that are recruited through UCAS and not, as elsewhere in the UK, full-time undergraduate study in general.’
@Legerwood says: 5 February, 2018 at 10:50 am:
“Clearly Mr Snow had never given the matter much thought and just considered that the North Sea in its entirety was England’s fiefdom to do with as they please.”
From day one Westminster claimed that all off-shore oil & gas revenues came from, “Extraregio Territory”.
If you seek out a definition of what comprises, “Extratregio Territory”, you will find it defined thus:-
“The extraregio territory is made up of parts of the economic territory of a country which cannot be attached directly to a single region.
The extraregio territory consists of, among others, national air-space, territorial waters and the continental shelf lying in international waters over which the country enjoys exclusive rights; territorial enclaves, embassies, consulates, military and scientific bases; deposits of energy and natural resources outside the continental shelf of the country, worked by resident units”.
Note these two words in that definition:- “national”, and, “country”. The point being that the Westminster Establishment has wrongly claimed, from long before the Treaty of Union, that the Scottish monarchy had to swear allegiance to the monarchy of the Kingdom of England.
Check-out the, “Ragman Rolls”:-
link to bbc.co.uk
What followed was the wars of independence and the eventual rise of King Robert Bruce – first as King of Scotland but then, after the Declaration of Arbroath, as King of Scots.
Remember these historic events all took place under what was then, “Christendom”, and that was headed by the Holy Roman Se. Thus, when the Pope accepted the Declaration of Arbroath all Christendom had to accept that as God’s Will and it included what was then, in 1320, the very radical concept of the sovereignty of the people of Scotland.
The Kingdom of England has never accepted this as a legal concept and even in 1688, when the Kingdom of England became, “A Constitutional Monarchy”, they only changed the English Rule of Law slightly from the previous, “Divine Right of Kings”. That is the Monarch of the Kingdom of England remains, (even today), as legally Sovereign. Note that, in Westminster’s views, everything belongs to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth of England. For examples it is The Royal Navy, Royal Air Force and The Soldiers of the Queen. It is Her Majesty’s Treasury, Her Majesty’s Government and the people of the Kingdom of England remain, legally, Her Majesty’s subjects. Note that if you are hauled before the Courts in The Kingdom of England the case is recorded as, “Her Majesty Vs Joe or Josephine Bloggs”.
There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that Scots Law and English Law can thus ever be compatible but The Westminster solution to that fact, (well established fact in the Treaty of Union that declares that both Rules of Law must remain totally independent of each other). Westminster, from day one of the Union has just ignored the truth that the United Kingdom is a bipartite union of two equally sovereign kingdoms and is thus NOT a country but a two partner Kingdom of Equals that contains four distinct countries.
That FT comment is accepting that there will be a YES vote. Has the penny finally dropped in the financial world?
Handandshrimp 1.12pm
…i think it is too early to get too despondent yet. We don’t’ know whether Scotland were bad – or Wales were just awesome. Lets see how the next few matches go and then we will have a better picture.
heedtracker says:
… you wrote … “But anyhoo sensible d, you’re a good example of toryboy imperial master er, stuff, in Scotland, so do you know when I will have the EU fleg rubbed of my UKOK driving licence? Its a huge EU flag next a even huger union jack, on my great Brit credit card sized licence sensible.
Errr, all I did was mention the rugby Heedy!
However, since you raised the subject, I, like you, and like 65% of my fellow constituents (in Toryshire) voted Remain in Referendum.
I, you, and 65% of my fellow constituents (in Toryshire) were outvoted in a democratic referendum – as a result of the vote of over 1m Scots and 5m Labour voters voting Leave. Democracy sucks eh.
@SandyW says: 5 February, 2018 at 10:59 am
“As far as I know, Scottish Oil is all loaded onto ships for export, so no issue in working out the revenue there – 100% for Scotland.”
Perhaps so, SandyW, but an empty pipeline is of little use and gas can, and is shipped around in Tankers. Not to mention that National Electricity Grids with, “Grid Connection Charges”, that not only pay subsides to generators close to London while simultaneously charging increasingly more for generators that are increasingly further from London can be ended with the flick of a switch.
The Establishment know the score only too well and that includes the way they calculate exports- whereby they count as English exports goods grown and manufactured in Scotland as being English exports when they leave the United Kingdom via English ports and airports.
It is a fact that even such things as Scottish Salmon, Aberdeen Angus beef and, “Scotch”, Whisky, (and that is almost all of it), is accounted by Westminster as being English Exports. They see the prospect of these, <i<"nice little English earners", promptly becoming Scottish Exports quicker than Theresa May can change her dictatorial mind in mid sentence.
Democracy sucks eh.
UK sucks sensible d.
Its all about you lot sensible d. England’s the boss of us Scots, its what we voted for 2014, well…
The Vow, devo-max, federal UK zone, keep your Scottish EU passports, and so on, all of it giant fraud on Scotland, by you lot basically. You can do this all day on the Better Together frauds, Clyde navy ship building? bullshit, stronger, safer faster change, complete and utter UK bullshit, unless Brexit is somehow safer, faster, stronger change, Fluffie Mundell and his Scots office UKOK civil service creeps up to god knows what, sensible dave.
Why is this shithead union stitched BetterTogether with such profound lies, and the bare faced professional BBC liars too ofcourse.
Gloat all you like sensible d about Scottish rugby, if only you were England running Brexit England only now too.
What have they been smoking?
@H&S
The team looked like 15 players who met up before the match. No precision whereas Wales were all precision.
@sensibledave
England were given a run for their money by Italy. Remember 3 years or so ago when people were talking about Italy being a waste of space and should get someone else in the 6 Nations. Not any more!
This will be another opportunity for the Scottish government to tell Westminster British nationalists to get stuffed. More opportunities will come along and they must be taken.
I am sure you all know, there is a vast ocean of oil under the clyde, get rid of their underwater killing machines, then we can get it out, and its all ours, they cannot say that the clyde is not in scotland lol
@Richard Hunter says: 5 February, 2018 at 11:08 am:
“Unless Westminster tries the old divide and rule tactic of trying to split off parts of Scotland e.g. Shetland.”
What do you mean, “If”, Richard?
They have been doing that all my life and I’m an octogenarian.
Thing is it is never going to happen.
If they tried to do so it would come to light that the Northern Isles would come under the International Law of the Seas and the islands would become foreign enclaves in Scottish Waters.
In which case they would have no mineral rights on the continental shelf and only very narrow shipping and air corridors/lanes as access to international waters.
They would also cut themselves off from all mainland services such as gas, electricity grid and supply lines of all kinds, including mail and ferry links.
There really is no stomach for such a political move except for the likes of the LibDem liars party.
@donnywho says: 5 February, 2018 at 11:15 am:
“Please excuse my tinfoil hat, LOL.”
Ye can tak yon hat aff, donnywho, the problem affected much of the country, (and much of the other three countries in the United Kingdom too).
Which is the kind of way things would have to be explained when the truth hits the country of England that the United Kingdom is just that – a united kingdom and that united kingdom contains two kingdoms and, between them, four countries – and three of those four countries, including the country of England, are parts of the Kingdom of England.
Thanks for the article Stuart, and against the odds! 🙂
Re; Dr.Jim@12.31
Aye, it was all part of the big fat British nationalist plan and it started years ago, but was speedily stepped up as soon as alex Salmond said we were having an independence referendum. That’s why the UKGov started to tax it to the hilt, and decommission still viable oil fields. They must have had to spend a lot to appease the prospectors. No company spends their big fat bucks on prospecting, unless they know the oil will be on tap and big time at that.
Scotland’s oil has been stolen and will continue to be stolen. May just sold Scotland to China, and the Chinese gov don’t give anything unless they get something very lucrative back.
Scotland, you have been had and not only that, kept poor and begging for a long time. Poor wee, stupid drunken druggies, jakies, good for nowt look at what untRuth said about the people of Scotland.
It’s been a great heist, the great oil robbery right in front of Scotland’s nose. It’s why they kept the idea going that ‘Scotland’s s***e’ as well. I don’t know anyone in England that says their country is s***e, and that takes the rip out of their own people, laughing ha ha!
I can’t read stuff about how much oil there is, it’s too depressing. As a soft yes, Labour voting pal said in 2014, ‘aye, it’s dirty though isn’t it’. Very dirty in the hands of the Britnats indeed pet, very bloody dirty.
You can watch lots films about Scotland’s industries at image archive at NLS, going back 100 years, including the shipping of gas from the west coast via a pipeline to the east coast and out of Scotland.
Wee Scotland has been keeping rUK lights on for a long time, but anyone remember the big power cuts just prior to the 2014 independence referendum? Never any explanation for that, only thing was it was aliens that did it gov! They said it could only happen if had big storms, there were none.
O/T
Had a discussion other day about how Scotland’s council ‘estate’s, ie schemes were so dreadful but friends reckon not the worst as England had pockets of dreadful schemes. Maybe but, perhaps the difference is, Scotland’s schemes were never upgraded to be actually habitable by humans, under a Labour gov and while being run by Labour councils. Just a thought.
All Ireland energy Market.
Questions about the security of Northern Ireland’s electricity supply have been raised with the announcement that the owners of Kilroot power station plan to close most of it in April 2018 and begin closing parts of Ballylumford power station at the end of the year.
The decision is as a direct result of the introduction of a new all-Ireland electricity market from May. AES, the American owners of the two power stations which supply the bulk of Northern Ireland’s electricity, made the announcement.
The decision has been due to the fact that Kilroot lost out in the first auction of the new all-island market. That auction was run by the System Operator Northern Ireland (SONI), which is owned by Eirgrid – a company wholly-owned by the Irish Government
The development raises major questions about the security of Northern Ireland’s electricity supply, potentially removing 36% of installed capacity by the end of this year.
Now Northern Ireland will be dependent on imported gas for the two major remaining power plants. Both of those plants are fuelled using the Scotland-Northern Ireland gas pipeline. However, NI has access to the Republic of Ireland’s gas network.
AES are now understood to be making a formal request not to keep the plants operational.
Just a little view of what happens when you have a voice.
Wonder if the DUP know that their energy will be from over that Closed Border, now that Mother Theresa has pronounced that there will be no Customs Union
Most council housing schemes look fine to me. I live in one and have no wish to leave it, also seem to have missed the power cuts before the 2014 referendum. And can only think the West coast to East coast Pipeline was actually the Finart Grangemouth oil pipe line to allow big Tankers to offload Crude oil as the Forth was to shallow for them.
sensibledave @ 13:59,
Hi incorrigible, it’s been a while.
So how do you feel about the wee DUP tail wagging your (pseudo-)democratic dog, eh…?
‘..a ‘conquered’ Colony..’
The British Nationalists wish it was as simple as that.
Like the unregulated British Empire, you know the relatively modern slave/social-entrapment system that still exists today.
Some ‘Scots’ feel so conquered they voted NO to Independence.
@handclapping says: 5 February, 2018 at 11:19 am:
“Jan 29 2014 is not recent!”
“Recent”, is like everything to do with time, “relative”, to other things as Albert Einstein stated. Now without really trying to be funny this can be summed up as:-
Einstein’s theory of special relativity, states that the laws of physics are the same for all non-accelerating observers. That the speed of light within a vacuum is the same no matter the speed at which an observer is travelling.
Thus he found that space and time were interwoven into a single continuum known as “space-time.” Events that occur at the same time for one observer could occur at different times for another. So, there you go, both space and time are relative to the observer.
For example a person waiting for a bus finds that five minutes is a relatively long time. Another person who has just stepped through a lift door and discovered the lift had not yet arrived thinks a few split seconds is a relatively short time.
As the man said – it just depends on how you look at things.
Source for BoJo and his Scottish Water wheeze (Welsh also from 2011).
link to archive.is
@Jockanese Wind Talker
I have no problems at all with England buying our water.
Ah, here we go, Southern Water household charge:
Water supply standing charge £33.89 £1.251 per cubic metre.
link to southernwater.co.uk
Well, leave them costgs of transport and some profit, and we charge them £10 standing charge per consumer, plus £0.25 per cubic metre.
Total water usage in England perhaps 18 billion tonnes – cubic metres. Say we provide 25% of their water, that’s £1.125 billion a year. A nice little earner – plus the standing charge of course.
link to gov.uk
Corrections welcomed, only spent a couple of minutes, that’s the figure for sources in England whatever that means, not imported water.
yesindyref2 2:30 pm
You wrote “England were given a run for their money by Italy. Remember 3 years or so ago when people were talking about Italy being a waste of space and should get someone else in the 6 Nations. Not any more!”
They certainly appear to be a force now. They appear to have developed an attacking threat amongst the backs – to go with their traditional obdurateness up front. As with Scotland’s performance though, we fon’t know yet whether the Italians played really well – or the English team played below par.
So far though, lots of tries and exciting rugby which bodes well for the rest of the competition. We will wait and watch with interest.
.. and Heedy … isn’t it about time you grew up? If it wasn’t for your victim-hood you would have nothing to say – on anything.
Its all about perspective Heedy. From my perspective, if all Scots had voted to Remain – then Remain would have won the referendum. It is therefore totally logical for me to argue that the only reason that I was outvoted was because of bloody Scots Leave voters.
Come back to me when you have worked than one out. I won’t hold my breath.
The FT are trying to soften peoples’ brains.
Shame on the FT.
They’re away down the drain with the rest of them.
Another maloderous addition to the binbag o’ bawbags.
Robert Peffers @ 12:50p.m.
Here in Dunfermline, or the area I’m currently in, is so slow for weeks, a relative who lives on Tyree tells me today , that the Internet is “down” there, so yes Robert, it does seem somewhat nation wide, eh I blame them “Ruskies”, it’s either that or Wullie Rennie!!!!!! ?
Robert J. Sutherland 3:11 pm
You wrote “So how do you feel about the wee DUP tail wagging your (pseudo-)democratic dog, eh…?”
…. Similar to how I feel in the comment I made to Heedy at 4.13 above.
Democracy sucks sometimes. But, given that Scots voted to stay in the UK in that referendum and therefore they had the right to vote in the EU referendum – I have to put up up with the fact that it is Scottish Leave voters that got their way and we are now leaving the EU against my wishes.
The difference between me and many here on Wings is that I take the slings and arrows thrown – and accept the democratic outcome – because I am a democrat first and foremost. Anything else is anarchy.
@Luigi says:5 February, 2018 at 11:55 am:
“Indeed, it is the British Nationalist Labour Party that has been, and remains, the biggest obstacle to Scottish independence.”
Wait for it! Wait for it!
“The real power lies with the English middle class). The Labour Party in Scotland has served the British Nationalist cause very well in the past 80 years.”
Wait for it! Wait for it!
“It would help if SNP/SG spokespeople started calling them out – refer to them as “British Labour”. It may seem childish but it resonates big time with the less informed.”
Wai… Ah! Yes! Thoughtv so – there it is – It’s really all just been the SNP/SG wot dun it … SNP BAAAAAD!
If you bothered to watch the real goings on at Westminster the reality is that the SNP contingent do indeed hit them at every opportunity:-
link to youtube.com
link to youtube.com
link to youtube.com
link to youtube.com
Well said Robert P.
We will not stoop so low,
.. as those who lie.
Yous want a reason, why the SNP don’t fling dirty tricks back or insults back?
It is because the language used (and therefore required as a fitting reply) masks a mixture of intimidation, suppression of ideas, direct insults, institutional racism and is fit only for the the Daily Mail and it’s readers.
O/T
Update, the Celtic Connections earlier post on BBC moved from Scotland to Entertainment Section and the photo of “Danny” removed.
WoS keeping it real,keeping them honest.
Well surprise surprise.
When it comes to resources WM likes the old ‘what’s yours is mine and what’s mine’s my own’ mantra. It has served them well for centuries so why wouldn’t they try it again.
I tend to agree with Peter Bell (11.22am) that it’s the sowing of doubt that is key here.
If the Establishment really think there should be any ‘ negotiating’ to be done then we’ll negotiate our stolen waters back thank you.
Starlaw (10.36am) is correct. The so-called ‘change of boundary’ is meaningless in the international law of the sea conventions. There is, in fact, no internal demarcation in UK waters, according to international law. That’s notional. However if Scotland were an independent country, then international laws would apply not any bullying stance by Westminster.
Here’s an article someone could point out to Rev, it appears moneywoman didn’t believe in GERS back in May 2014:
link to ft.com
@Robert Peffers
I wonder if you, or anyone else, can help me. I seem to remember you posting some information on the Treaty of Union. It said that the Treaty could be dissolved by either party, without the need for the consent of the other.
I seem to have lost the reference for this. I thought it was in the Treaty itself but I cannot find it. Can you help please?
1: I fully agree on the justice of the situation.
But…
2: Given the tendency of the British State to meddle in the affairs of other countries and ultimately use war f it suits them, a pragmatic approach may be for the Scottish government to agree to rUK having a certain amount of oil for a set period of time after independence in return for the WM not meddling in the referendum.
Of course this is rather like asking a vulture to clean your teeth at one level, but I’m pretty sure that the reason WM is so anti independence is the natural resources Scotland has, so it may be that Holyrood has to make a deal. I think WM would probably drop the toffs and their big estates if it was expedient, but they won’t let go of the oil, and that will be the cause of the dirtiest tricks they can come up with in Indref2.
I’m not saying it is right, you understand, or just, that Scotland give more resources away as the price of freedom, but it may be the more pragmatic solution, as ultimately the power (as in, armed forces) are controlled by WM.
Rab Boyce,
“Leaving aside the quote is from an article in 2014,”
Rev. Stuart Campbell,
“we’re being baffled by this assertion from the Financial Times that’s been doing the social-media rounds again recently.”
heedtracker,
“sensibledave says:”
Sensible Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex-)girlfriend, you are living proof that not all people in Scotland are stupid.
Run diagnostics . . .
Runaway process . . .
Ctrl-Alt-Del
Windows Task Manager
Select Rock
End Process
[…] snippet from the Financial Times, brought to our attention by Wings Over Scotland, perfectly illustrates the principal weapon deployed by Better Together/Project Fear during the […]
Gosh I do hope someone or something comes along to fix this issue to all our satisfaction.
I mean, it’s a tricky one and no mistake… 😀 ;D
You are not a democrat, ‘nonsensicle’dave.
You, like your chums rock and coco, are an arsehole.
The difference between me and many here on Wings is that I take the slings and arrows thrown – and accept the democratic outcome – because I am a democrat first and foremost. Anything else is anarchy.
You’re not a democrat though sensible d. You’re a unionist in Scotland trying to block Scottish democracy developing, yes, you sensible d, specifically.
What was democratic about Project Fear 1, which among other things, threatened Scots like me with losing our EU citizenship, unless we Remained under England’s control?
I know, “silence vile seps of greater England’s fractious Scotland region, its democracy, we gave the Scots and the EU referendum, you lost them both. Deal with it.” sensible dave.
For how much longer will Scots tolerate you though, toryboy’s of merry old UK sensible?
You’re correct Stu.
But ffs don’t winge about poor 4G when you’re talking to rural Scotland. We’re not a WM priority as you know, so many of us dream of the potential of a 3G future.
I suspect even that will require independence first
Your internet woes remind me of the run up to the independence referendum. I started to publish online detailed maps of nuclear fallout following Faslane ‘mishaps’. I would draft my post and then my broadband would disconnect for several minutes. Happened every time. Some GCHQ spook was obviously getting clearance to reconnect my broadband so I could post.
Albaman
so they are deliberately slowing down the internet now so that we don’t believe that the scottish government is actually ahead on the broadband roll out- pretty obvious really.
I have several friends and a few business connections who all have a .scot address… funny that their e-mails keep getting bounced back to me or have problems being delivered… too much of a coincidence. GCHQ is up to tricks .