Unemployment disaster for Scotland
Yesterday saw the release of the latest unemployment figures. They showed Scottish unemployment falling by 11,000 to its lowest level in four years – dropping below the 200,000 barrier for the first time since 2009, after five successive months of falls – with the number of people in work showing its biggest increase for almost 13 years.
The figures came against a backdrop of continuing increases in UK joblessness, leaving the Scottish unemployment rate significantly below that of the rest of the country. The Scottish economy also grew by 0.5% over the most recent measured period, while that of the UK continued to shrink.
We know what you’re thinking – this is GOOD news, right?
Magnus Gardham’s back from his holidays at the Herald, folks!
And there’s the Tories’ Murdo Fraser talking Scotland up in the Scotsman.
Underemployment – people doing part-time and low-paid jobs when they want and need full-time ones – is indeed a real problem hiding behind the unemployment statistics. It’s just that we don’t recall it being pushed to the front of the news agenda when there’s been BAD news with regard to Scottish jobs figures. Only when something might reflect well on the Scottish Government does Scotland’s “quality” press choose to focus on the negative.
(We’re also not sure how this outbreak of concern squares with the determination of Fraser’s party to force the unemployed onto unpaid-labour workfare schemes.)
The return of Gardham from a two-week Easter break has miraculously coincided with all manner of downbeat stories appearing in the Herald’s politics section. But the sudden resurgence of cringe isn’t limited to either the Herald or politics.
Our eyes also fell this morning on a piece in the Scotsman’s football pages about Aberdeen’s plans to close off the top tier of the Richard Donald Stand next season to reduce costs and increase atmosphere. In particular, the following passage made us pause quizzically:
“Pittodrie can seat up to 22,199 spectators – in Scotland, only Celtic Park, Murrayfield, Hampden and Ibrox are larger – but Aberdeen’s average attendance for the 2012/13 season so far stands at a disappointing 10,503“
Hold on a minute. “Disappointing”? Aberdeen have had an unremarkable season, failing for the fourth year in a row to secure a top-six spot at the SPL split. And of course, this year they’ve also had to contend with the absence of the visiting Rangers support. So what was last season’s average attendance at Pittodrie? Um, it was 8,770.
During Scottish football’s “Armageddon” year, in the midst of a crippling economic recession, with some pretty grim football being served up (the first three home games of the season were 0-0 draws, and long-suffering fans have have seen the Dons notch just 14 goals in 17 matches at Pittodrie, including another four 0-0s), the club has nevertheless managed to INCREASE its average gate by a whopping 20%.
Scotland’s media is so used to reflexively painting a picture of doom and gloom whenever the SNP are in power that it’s now contriving tragedy and calamity even out of unequivocal success, even on matters unrelated to politics.
It’s long been the case that the opposition parties could be relied on to react to Alex Salmond personally discovering the cure for cancer by issuing angry press releases about the catastrophic impact on pensions, but with the papers joining in too we can’t help feeling that the Unionist side is now embarking on a last-ditch attempt to “save” Scotland from independence by making everyone in the country kill themselves.
Had a quick look at the ONS (Office of National Statistics) labour market report yesterday, here’s some more figures:
Unemployment rate in London – 8.9%
England: 8%
Wales 8.2%
N.Ireland 8.4%
Scotland 7.3 %
The BBC has shifted this story as quickly as they can off their main news feeder pages but still leave us with a link to a story titled ‘concern over underemployment levels’ (published yesterday at the same time as the ‘good news’ employment figures)
link to bbc.co.uk
But Stu, you’re ignoring the principle of Talking It Down – Gardham’s First Rule. We can’t have good news on our front pages, especially with the funeral brouhaha done and dusted. Let’s have more gloom.
It’s a bit like Labour’s soundbites from their Cuts Commission – of course we’re too stupid to be able to deal with difficult things like corporation tax, or oil duties. So we’re better off being wee and poor as well.
I couldn’t possibly link gloom with matters footie at Pittodrie.
What is a poor quality Job? Is that one were you get shares in the company in exchange for actual employment rights?
What is an insecure job? Is that a jonb at the herald or Scotsman as a journalist?
Just had national collective on my newsfeed, the photograph suggests some sort of press conference…maybe??
I saw this on News night Scotland last night, Murdo Fraser Gurning into the camera lense.
It made me laugh, there’s always a ‘but’ in any positive Scottish news… Last night’s was so obviously contrived it was funny.
I used to think that the Herald, like the rag of the east, was institutionally anti-Scotland, but we have the evidence in front of us that the bias and mudslinging is being generated by just this one individual, Gardham. For the two weeks he was on his hols, the Herald presented views that were welcomed by many on this site, some even restarted their Herald subscription, so pleased they were.
If I were the wee guy at the Herald who had to make the money side work, I’d be asking questions about the turn-off appeal wrought by this guy Gardham. When he ain’t there circulation goes upwards, when he’s back spreading his unsubstantiated and poisonous muck, it dips. It don’t take a professor of all things, like Curtice, to tell you there’s a seasonal event happening that’s spiking yer guns and yer survivability!
Nat coll press conf @ 10.30
Please post re NC as I am abroad
Over these last few days I have been experiencing a new condition within myself. Never had the condition before. I’m was speechless!
I found myself unable to adequately express just how I felt over Thatcher, her career, and her funeral.
I was recovering sufficently to express the view that the £10 million expenditure on her funeral by the British state was serving as a discreet message from the ruling elite that they are in charge and they will behave and spend state wealth as they see fit irrespective of the popular view of the general public. Whether it is £10 million on Thatcher’s funeral, or £100 billion on Trident renewal.
Now for Scotland we have very significant improved employment and economic growth figures, credit to the Scottish government, and it is being portrayed in negative terms by Unionists.
Words fail me.
Not for long I expect. Good discussion topics when out campaigning for Yes Scotland.
link to nationalcollective.com for twitter updates and possibly video feed (?)
Hopefully they’ll upload a video later too.
Talking about talking down, I ran across this yesterday in Holyrood Magazine
“The chief executive of the NHS in Scotland is to stand down from his post in August to take up a new position with the Institute for Healthcare Improvement (IHI) in the United States. Derek Feeley, who is also Director General for Health and Social Care in the Scottish Government, will join the IHI as Executive Vice-President later this year.”
Now this is surely a great news story? After all, NHS Scotland has been working with the IHI on patient safety, and has been recognised by them to have a world leading patient safety programme, one which colleagues south of the border are a bit jealous of. So now, this world leading, international organisation has poached him from us. Wow! Scotland must be recognised internationally, and the work we’re doing on patient safety clearly has caught the attention of some important people.
Maureen Bisognano, IHI President, highlighting Feeley’s “deep experience” of healthcare quality improvement, has this to say: “Under Mr Feeley’s leadership, NHS Scotland has made notable systems-level progress in patient safety and quality – and those key learnings are crucial to the challenges now facing health care around the world” Mr Feeley’s new job is to take responsibility of “IHI’s growing international work and will further drive the organization’s leadership in quality, cost and value, population health, patient engagement, safety science, and improvement capability.”
Yup, I’d say that’s a very good news story for Scotland indeed, and for those working in its NHS who’ve been working incredibly hard to push forward that patient safety agenda.
But wait…no, no…here comes a unionist. “However, Scottish Conservative health spokesman, Jackson Carlaw MSP, accused the outgoing chief executive of leaving unanswered questions about the recent hospital waiting lists scandal, which he said must be answered by his successor.” He then goes on to attack the Scottish government and finishes with ““I hope Mr Feeley’s successor will not only guarantee this disgraceful practice will not be repeated, but also appreciates that the issue needs to be revisited.”
So there we go. Deflated again. Honest to God, not even a congratulations to the individual, or a recognition that NHS Scotland might be doing something vaguely useful enough to be valued by IHI, just tired old negativity. Narrow, small minded, bitter and negative. These people, and our media that never reports a good news story, but continually saps the will to live with negativity must make us a laughing stock abroad.
link to holyrood.com
Well, that’s the run of buying The Herald ceased
Baron – next time you visit the Herald website and read a Gardham article, just click on his name and it will list all his previous articles – it’s astonishing the consistency he delivers – anti-SNP, anti-independence vs. pro anything that is against the SNP/independence.
video feed here for NC news conference
link to vine.co
“Under Mr Feeley’s leadership, NHS Scotland has made notable systems-level progress in patient safety and quality – and those key learnings are crucial to the challenges now facing health care around the world”
Key learnings of NHS Scotland for make benefit glorious nation of America.
National Collective, they have my backing.
Doesn’t anyone see?
They are painting doom and gloom, to get us used to how much worse it is going to be, if we don’t get independence!!
UK unemployment UP to 7.9%
Scots unemployment DOWN to 7.3%
UK Economy CONTRACTS by 0.3%
Scots Economy GROWS by 0.5%
As a wee aside to this I found this information as well.
According to OECD table of GDP per Capita UK is listed at number 16 Iceland, remember them, are listed number 15
According to OECD currency table UK is listed at number 18 Iceland, remember them, are listed at number 15
I have just ONE itsy bitsy LITTLE question.
WHY are we Better Together?
link to en.wikipedia.org
O/T – Here’s the message National Collective have posted on their site –
link to nationalcollective.com
“UK Economy CONTRACTS by 0.3%
Scots Economy GROWS by 0.5%”
Clearly that’s because business is terrified by all the uncertainty.
I see National Collective is fully back online this morning http://nationalcollective.com
Brilliant!
@Arbroth1320
Quite apart from Iceland, have a look at Ireland. So, Arc of prosperity still alive then despite rumours of its demise.
A good day for burying bad news I emailed a friend yesterday morning.
Sure enough the news was bad for England and the usual suspects refuse to acknowledge that the present Holyrood regime had any hand in the Scottish improvement, marginal though it may be.
I was wondering about the Heralds reaction to the lawyers letter it had received, my sister put me right on Tuesday evening by pointing out that Gardham had been on holiday for the past fortnight.
I have just ONE itsy bitsy LITTLE question. WHY are we Better Together?
I’m glad you’ve asked that question and I’d like to answer it in three ways: firstly, by diverting attention to the horrific events in Boston; secondly, by manufacturing some outrageous link between the SNP and those horrific events; and thirdly, by ignoring it completely. I expect the usual howls of outrage from the cybernatz who don’t want to address these issues and who have no answer to these arguments, but they must be silenced rather than let them close down debate.
I just knew that ANY positive about Scotland and particularly where the SG are concerned.Expect more and more and more of this from the BitterTogether buddies,zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
@Arb
Spooky, but true Arb. We’re the only country on the planet who can strike oil, grow its economy in time of recession, drop its unemployment, record expansions in national exports, balance its budgets year on year and yet still somehow be incapable of running our own show.
Its in the papers so it must be true. 😉
O/T Better Together continue the trend of trying to label Scottish Universities against Independence.
The most recent is Edinburgh Napier , covered in The Times , where 70.5% said no to Independence. Only 569 students were polled.
The follow up interview with a current lecturer and former Labour spin doctor is almost too cliched to watch at this point.
“Aberdeen’s average attendance for the 2012/13 season so far stands at a disappointing 10,503“ Hold on a minute. “Disappointing”?”
As someone who has had to endure more than their fair share of Aberdeen matches at Pittodrie in the past, I’d say its actually amazing that anyone goes to watch them!
It certainly isn’t disappointing that 10,500 would put up with dire 0-0 displays, terrible football and terrible players, and driving rain and sleet.
Amanayeman says:
@Arbroth1320
Quite apart from Iceland, have a look at Ireland. So, Arc of prosperity still alive then despite rumours of its demise.
I think this is indeed VERY scary.
With reference to my last post Ireland, another country that some may remember, is currently listed as being number 8 in the OECD table of GDP per Capita table. I think everyone will agree that this position is somewhat HIGHER than the good old UK’s position of 16, even higher than Iceland sitting at number 15.
When you look at the second OECD table, listing countries by currency exchange rates we find this absolutely AMAZING situation, Ireland is listed at number 11. Again I think everyone will agree that this position is HIGHER than UK’s lowly rating of 18 and also that of Iceland who are at number 15.
link to en.wikipedia.org
@Macart.
I think you may be right there!
I don’t do spooky very well so I guess there is only one option left…………”Darkened Room!”
The question of under-employment and low quality jobs is an issue but it is an issue for the whole of the UK and it is one that is discussed in the likes of the Guardian in relation to the overall UK numbers. The upshot is that the issue is a given for both sets of figures and therefore has little or no bearing on the divergence seen. In short it is a red herring or a squirrel (for those not so keen on fish).
I can’t believe a Tory is waving this particular squirrel at us up here when his party is desperate to play down this factor in the UK figures. It is almost as if they don’t think we are capable of holding two pieces of information in our heads at the one time.
The figures are not bad……..but I am sure that for Johann and others they are bloody annoying.
“Quite apart from Iceland, have a look at Ireland. So, Arc of prosperity still alive then despite rumours of its demise”
I wouldn’t be too quick to start using Iceland or Ireland as positive examples for an independent Scottish economy if I were you.
Ireland is still deep in recession and is not expected to exit it this year:
link to irishtimes.com
And whilst Iceland managed to bounce back from recession very quickly, that was largely because its such a tiny country (320,000 people) and the methods it used to escape recession aren’t really feasible in larger countries (its debt stands at almost 100% of GDP for example).
Plus we wouldn’t be able to survive what Iceland experienced in 2008 – its stock market sinking by 90%, its biggest banks failing, and a massive increase in inflation (which is still high) and unemployment.
link to bloomberg.com
O/T New political party in Scotland
link to bbc.co.uk
@Arb
I see the new wing is coming along nicely for recent converts. 😀
Ah, we’re too BIG, too poor and too stupid.
Glad we cleared that up.
@Heraldnomore
“O/T New political party in Scotland”
Mmm… looks like the BBC may give this ‘new party’ a lot of airtime. I smell a strategy?
Having just listened to Alex Salmond tear Lamont apart on youth unemployment on FMQ and tell the country about the 11,000 drop in unemployment in Scotland, nothing the MSM and unionist politians says on this subject should be treated with anything more than contempt.
Did the three unionist (scottish if london says so) party leaders take an added dose of stupidity pills today, it certainly sounded like it, not one of them appears to check their subject questions out very well. Our First Minister just took them apart without breaking sweat.
And its good to see “National Collective” back on the scene with an excellent reply to the Taylor “NO campaign” donator legal threat. I hope their petition to the “NO campaign” brings some interesting answers. (oops theres a flying pig)
My thanks to WOS (Rev) and National Collective for standing up to the attempted bullying by supporters of the “NO campaign, it makes the difference.
Vote YES, Vote for a Scotland honourable in “word and deed”.
“Ah, we’re too BIG, too poor and too stupid. Glad we cleared that up.”
Where in that post did I suggest any of those things, Morag? Your desperation to discredit me simply because I don’t follow the SNP line is cringeworthy. I’m merely suggesting that neither Iceland or Ireland are great examples for an independent Scotland to follow, Norway would be better.
@Blue Tiles,
“The follow up interview with a current lecturer and former Labour spin doctor is almost too clichéd to watch at this point”.
I see your point but IMO this interview is comedy gold and I would say is essential viewing. It reminded me of listening to two party apparatchicks in the former Soviet Union in 1989, as their world was collapsing around them, reassuring the masses that everything was in hand, the party was in control, just before the Berlin Wall was brought down.
I notice BT are running a story about Cameron Stout leading their Orkney campaign.
link to bettertogether.net
“And the Press & Journal’s own poll shows that, in the Northern Isles, 70% of those asked want Scotland to remain part of the United Kingdom, with only 8% wanting Scotland to go it alone.” Is this the same poll that was highlighted yesterday? I’m confused.
Has Cameron stopped bashing gays with his bible yet? I’ve seen him in a few gay clubs and he certainly didn’t appear to be there for evangelical reasons.
“Is this the same poll that was highlighted yesterday? I’m confused.”
No, it’s a different poll.
Well done The Herald. National Collective update on their online edition. The story that just wont go away!!
I wouldn’t get too excited about the employment situation in Scotland. It’s good we seem to be doing better than other parts of the UK but that doesn’t take anything away from issue of underemployment. Go to the Universal Job Match Site (the replacement for the old Job Centre Plus web site), punch in your post code and list the available jobs. Lots of the vacancies are for part time jobs (some as low as 2 or 3 hours a week, self-employment (no min wage, and no NIC for agent), zero hour contracts etc. I have never seen it so bad.
Work Programme agents have also been telling the “clients” they cannot place as slave labour (no pay) with for profit companies that they should switch to self employment, even though they have no realistic business idea, so that the clients can claim tax credits. This allows the Work Programme agent to claim a substantial fee from the government as the client is taken off the unemployment register, but unfortunately they do not tell the client that the tax man at some point realises what is happening and claims back the tax credits.
Because unemployed people are being put through hoops to find non-existent jobs (with the constant threat of sanctions) it isn’t surprising to me that number of so called self-employed has been growing at a great rate in recent years – its much easier to live on tax credits than be subject to the dehumanizing treatment of the DWP and their agents.
One of the first things an indpendent Scotland can and should do is ditch the welfare scams of the Work Programme agents. They are there to serve themselves and the money that is wasted on them is better spent on economic regeneration that creates real jobs and not funding the wastrels who run scam “employment support” schemes such as the Work Programme.
Where in that post did I suggest any of those things,
“And whilst Iceland managed to bounce back from recession very quickly, that was largely because its such a tiny country (320,000 people) and the methods it used to escape recession aren’t really feasible in larger countries”
I would have let that go, but you don’t follow the SNP line, so our orders are to neutralise you.
To be fair an average gate of 10,000 is still a bit rubbish for a team in the SPL who’s fans have ambitions :O) Maybe I’m wrong…….maybe no ambition :O)
However, back onto serious matters. If Magnus Gardham is indeed just back from holiday then the mice have been playing while the cat was away. If today is anything to go by the revival of the Herald will be short lived.
I have also noticed that the comments are being culled and much more tightly censored, I’m now back on moderated comments when I wasn’t before and I’ve seen whole swathes of comments around silly stuff like pensions and currency just chopped completely.
The original article on unemployment dropping fell off the front page with the speed of light…no need to be letting the good news get too much exposure. I mean surely Chris Hoy retirement, Whole Foods buying Arnold Clark building beats dropping unemployment. Even when its ‘The wrong type of employment‘….
The Woking wonderboy with an OBE no less seems to be taking up where the Bay City Roller has left off, not sure if McKeweon’s absence is personally enforced or by editorial staff. I doubt its the latter as he has previously got away with some amazing posts, I think mainly due to his being ‘onside’ and he also churns up lots of comments due to his trolling capabilities.
That would explain it.
Have you seen the BT STUC Work Together rally? They’re tweeting about having people standing in the packed room. of course, it helps if you only have a room big enough for 16 seats.
link to twitter.com
or take all the chairs out
“I would have let that go, but you don’t follow the SNP line”
Er…..which part of that quote of mine that you’ve provided even slightly suggests that I think Scotland is too ‘big’, ‘poor’ or ‘stupid’ to get independence?!
Clearly I’m saying that the methods Iceland used to get out of recession are not really feasible for a larger country, and that Iceland isn’t a good comparison to use for an independent Scotland, in no possible way does that suggest I think Scotland is too ‘big’ to get independence!
Er…..which part of that quote of mine that you’ve provided even slightly suggests that I think Scotland is too ‘big’, ‘poor’ or ‘stupid’ to get independence?!
Er…which part of Morag’s post said anything about independence?
Eeek!
I don’t follow the SNP line on NATO
errr…
does being neutralised involve massage and those fancy healing stones?
I broadly agree with your article Stu, but at the same time be careful not to gloss over genuine problems with pro-indy rhetoric as that’s a wee bit insulting to those who are affected by them. Like many Scots, I work in the service industries, and at the moment many employers are abusing the system, and only taking on staff for temporary 3 month contracts through recruitment agencies. This means that staff have no job security (meaning I can’t obtain credit as a direct result) and limited employment rights (I can effectively be sacked for no reason, because I’m technically temping, and they can simply say they need one less temp). This is a very common situation in Edinburgh, and I expect it’s the same elsewhere. I recognise that Wings is a blog about Scottish independence, so it’s not really in your remit to comment on the Scottish labour market, but “thousands of Scots are being forced into insecure and poor-quality jobs” is an absolutely correct assessment and should not be dismissed as the usual anti-SNP scaremongering.
I don’t think anyone should be reading anything into Press and Journal ‘Polls’ unless who carried out the poll, the methodology and full tabulated data is available.
It could be a reader survey for all I know.
If anyone has any details I’d appreciate it.
I don’t follow the SNP line on NATO
Your name vill also go on zer list.
Neutred? Jeez that’s a bit harsh.
Ooohhhhhh…….. neutralised. 🙂
@John,
Excellent post and a stunning final paragraph.
This is a problem of capitalism also. Capitalist economies across the world are finding it increasingly difficult to provide anything remotely resembling ‘full’ employment and this is a problem that can only get worse as the world’s population continues to increase. So far, the Tories and Labour have stopped short of advocating compulsory sterilisation for the ‘undeserving poor’ as a condition for benefits, but even that can surely only be a matter of time.
One of the reasons that the Tories and Labour at Westminster have been punishing the ‘undeserving poor’ for the last three decades isn’t just because the Westminster parties are nasty bastards (that goes without saying). It’s also because over 90 per cent of the increase in the UKs population since 1970 is accounted for by the increase in the population in the southern half of England. This is the constituency that determines the outcome of British general elections. It’s no accident that the former BNP, the English Defence League and UKIP enjoy their highest support there. Labour and the Tories, therefore, have to be seen to be ‘doing something’ about the rising population of benefit ‘scroungers’, ‘grasping’ migrants etc in the southern half of England, otherwise they risk losing votes.
In Scotland, on the other hand, this is not a major issue (Scotland’s population, uniquely among even smaller EU countries, has barely increased since 1970). But our membership of the UK means that we have welfare policies that are caused by developments in the southern half of England imposed on us with all their terrible consequences for Scotland’s poor and dispossessed.
On the broader issue, we can either continue with the UK and allow our lives and livelihoods to be determined exclusively by the vagaries of the unmerciful calculus of neo-liberalism, with its increasingly punitive welfare policies. Or we can take up your suggestion, among other things, and embark on a programme of “economic regeneration”. Of course, before we can do this latter, we need to do the most important thing of all, vote Yes in 2014.
“Er…which part of Morag’s post said anything about independence?”
Er…the part where she referred to ‘too poor, too stupid’ etc, which is consistently the reason why unionists claim Scotland can’t become independent.
Don’t embarrass yourself by trying to pretend that she wasn’t attemtping to discredit me by suggesting I thought Scotland couldn’t get independence because its ‘too big, too poor, too stupid’.
Er…the part where she referred to ‘too poor, too stupid’ etc,
The part which didn’t mention independence?
@Norsewarrior: “I’m saying that the methods Iceland used to get out of recession are not really feasible for a larger country”
You are, are you? That’s nice, but why are you saying that?
If I’m not mistaken, John Kay argued that not only should an independent Scotland follow the Icelandic route in such circumstances, but also that the UK, US, Ireland and all the rest should have done so in 2008. But people can read his views here in Narrow Banking and all that and make up their own minds. And let’s be clear, there’s no reason to think it can’t happen again in the UK. Jim Cuthbert has a real scare story, and it concerns the status quo.
“The part which didn’t mention independence?”
Er…..anyone who refers to ‘too poor, too stupid’ etc in relation to Scotland is obviously making a link to independence, there is no need to mention the specific word for that to be clear!
Anyone with even a basic understanding of Scotland would realise ‘too poor, too stupid’ refers explicitly to the commonly suggested reason why unionists think Scotland can’t get independence.
For the second time, don’t embarrass yourself by trying to pretend that she wasn’t attempting to discredit me by suggesting I thought Scotland couldn’t get independence because its ‘too big, too poor, too stupid’, especially on a website such as this where everyone is fully aware of the context and meaning of that phrase.
An excellent article Rev and it is indicative of why the unionists keep trying to stop the message from this wonderful site and National collective etc.
Also explains why the disgusting Duncan Hothersall targeted you in the manner he did.
The Unionists do not want debate ,for if they did attempt to debate in the open they would be utterly destroyed .
The YES votes would be weighed not counted.
That is why they keep up the smears ,sneers and jeers as well as trying to silence WOS etc.
Er…..anyone who refers to ‘too poor, too stupid’ etc in relation to Scotland is obviously making a link to independence, there is no need to mention the specific word for that to be clear!
Er…let me check I’m up to speed: you imagine she referred to independence rather than the subject under discussion, which proves she was referring to independence, which proves that she was attacking you because you don’t support the SNP line on something or other (I’ll assume it’s ‘independence’), because any dissenting voice must be howled down by the demented cybernat fanatics? And by not making your inane assumptions, I’ve embarrassed myself?
“If I’m not mistaken, John Kay argued that not only should an independent Scotland follow the Icelandic route in such circumstances”
From what I can see, you are mistaken. Nowhere in that article by John Kay can I see any evidence of him arguing that an independent Scotland should follow the Icelandic route, quite the opposite in fact.
“the experience of Iceland illustrates the extent to which freedom of action conveys vulnerability”
“The liabilities of the two major Scottish banks amounted to about 30 times Scottish GDP, or almost three-quarters of a million pounds per inhabitant of Scotland. Both these figures are substantially higher than the corresponding figures for Iceland”
Ah! the penny has dropped
There is a Norsewarrior (or similar) on some other site (possibly the Hootsmon) but he is a transparent mentalist and obvious concern troll (being obvious). I wouldn’t equate the posts of the Norsewarrior here to those – certainly not the ones I have seen so far.
Iceland’s remedy was drastic and while effective would be hard to do with a more complex economy. Ireland is doing better than many predicted. However, I wouldn’t compare Scotland to any specific country. It is a typical small Western European state blessed with some good natural resources. Small Western European states tend to be pretty good places to live. Being independent is all about making Scotland a pretty good place to live.
And skimming through Scotland’s Future (or, to give it a proper citation: Goodheart, Charles, “The Scottish Financial Structure” in Andre Goudie (ed.), Scotland’s Future. The economics of constuitutional change. Dundee: Dundee University Press, 2013) there is this fascinating comment on p. 147: “With all the main being headquartered abroad, banking supervision should not be an arduous task. At least Scotland should be spared the kind of banking disaster that befell Iceland and Ireland, since the solvency of RBS, BoS and Clydesdale would remain the responsibility of London, not Edinburgh”.
Somebody else’s problem then. They’re always the best sort of problems to have.
@Norsewarriror
Plus we wouldn’t be able to survive what Iceland experienced in 2008 – its stock market sinking by 90%, its biggest banks failing, and a massive increase in inflation (which is still high) and unemployment.
It is a hypothetical situation though. We were not independence in 2008. Also, are you saying that the UK handed the economic crash better than smaller countries? As far as I can see we are locked into austerity for as long as we remain in the British state.
@Norsewarrior: Resolution is the Icelandic route. Admittedly they could have done a better job of it, but that’s what they aimed for.
Anyway, see the quote from Goodheart above. What Scottish Banks?
“Er…let me check I’m up to speed: you imagine she referred to independence rather than the subject under discussion”
I don’t ‘imagine’ anything, by using the phrase ‘”ah, we’re too BIG, too poor and too stupid” in relation to my post about Scotland not being comparable to Iceland, she was clearly referring to independence and attempting to discredit me by insinuating that I was suggesting Scotland was too ‘big’, ‘poor’ and ‘stupid’ to get independence, as anyone with even the most basic knowledge of Scotland would be aware.
I’m actually quite astonished that you’re still attempting to argue otherwise.
Anyone on this site will immediately associate the phrase ‘too poor, too stupid’, with independence. So yes, you are embarrassing yourself if you’re attempting to argue that’s not what she was referring to.
OT but latest MORI poll shows a dip for Labour again (Tories up) with 66% of people saying he’s not ready to be PM and only 24% thinking he is.
Likewise only 29% think Labour are ready to form the next UK government with 58% thinking they are not.
Looking increasingly bad for Labour for 2015.
I don’t ‘imagine’ anything
Oh, I understand know. She actually explicitly referred to independence, but in special text only you can see. I feel such a fool.
“Also, are you saying that the UK handed the economic crash better than smaller countries?”
No, I’m not saying or suggesting anything of the sort. My original post was not in any way a defence of the UK’s handling of the economic crash or a suggestion that we’d be better off remaining part of the UK – I made no reference to the UK or its handling of the crash in it, or indeed in any of my subsequent posts.
I was merely suggesting that there are better examples of countries for Scotland to follow post independence than Ireland or Iceland.
“Oh, I understand know. She actually explicitly referred to independence, but in special text only you can see. I feel such a fool.”
You certainly should feel a fool for even attempting to argue once that the phrase ‘too poor, too wee’ doesn’t refer clearly to independence, let alone spending the following half hour desperately attempting to continue that argument.
I will bid you all farewell folks .
I have seen this tactic too many times where a certain party ends up posting 70%+ off all posts and indeed ruins the decent debating that usually ensues on here.
Stand by for posts re Shetland Independence , SNP forcing us into EU ,NATO ,etc lots of topics O?T
You have been warned
Byeeeee
@scottishskier
Interesting that the BT write up of the recent independence poll in the P and J doesn’t attribute it ……only listed as ‘independent’, but they carried out a similar one a year ago.
I’ve always assumed it was customarily done, is it unusual not to name the company or make clear it’s in house?
Though of course I haven’t seen the hard copy of the 15/04/13 P and J, the online version is a mere taster with no mention.
@Rod Mac,
Well said. I’m off too. Life’s too short etc.
@Rod Mac, YesYesYes
If you think he/she is a troll (and some have suspicions), then if you stop posting on WoS, is that not letting him/her win? Why not just ignore what they have posted? After all you are under no obligation to read all the posts?
@Albalha
To a poll to have any meaningful value it should be a random sample (i.e. not of readers of a particular paper) matching the demographics according to region, age, sex, working status, public/private sector etc with weighting to correct as appropriate. Other factors such as voting history are important too for predicting outcomes (e.g. someone who says ‘I’ll vote No’ but has never voted in their lives should be heavily weighted down for example). All data should be made available for scrutiny (to be a registered with the BPC you need to do this). If this is not done, then ignore it as it’s quite possibly – and highly likely – mince.
Also, then you have the question. Lots of polls ask ‘Would you vote for independence tomorrow’. Given that the referendum is not tomorrow, but ~1.5 years away, you will not get people’s intention for the referendum. Quite a few people will assume that is what is being asked, but people normally answer the question asked, not what they think might be being asked. Ergo, a large number may give you there intention for a theoretical referendum being held tomorrow, not what they are thinking about for 1.5 years away.
‘Should Scotland be an independent country’ is also a problematic one. What if you think ideally no it should not (you support devo max) but you think there’s little choice, thus your answer is Yes (to what you’d vote in 2014) but you say ‘No’ to the survey. Such things are not uncommon at all.
I really wish they’d ask:
The Scottish Government plans to hold a referendum on Scottish independence in 2014, do you plan to vote:
Yes to independence
No to independence
DK
And ask people if they are willing to change their minds on that.
That would be a lot easier to work with.
New piece on Bella
link to bellacaledonia.org.uk
“Why not just ignore what they have posted?”
That is exactly what I, and more relevantly, the Rev, have been saying for the past few weeks.
As the Rev correctly states, it is actually the likes of ‘Rod Mac’ who are disrupting the debate and doing this site no favours with their endless unsubstantiated accusations against others being ‘trolls’ here.
I have been having a perfectly acceptable and decent debate about the merits of using Ireland and Iceland as comparisons for an independent Scotland, there is certainly nothing I’ve done or said to warrant the unsubstantiated accusations from ‘Rod Mac’ that I’m a ‘troll’, apart from the fact that my argument doesn’t fit with Salmond’s ‘arc of prosperity’, which is presumably enough in his eyes to make me a ‘troll’ and a ‘unionist’.
Others are happy to engage and debate with me about issues relevant to Scottish independence, if he thinks I’m a ‘troll’, rather than disrupting the site by making up false accusations, or leaving the site, all he has to do is ignore my posts.
HandandShrimp, obvious troll being obvious doesn’t last very long here. Horses for courses and all that.
I don’t think it is Rod Mac who is disrupting debate on here.
You certainly should feel a fool for even attempting to argue once that the phrase ‘too poor, too wee’ doesn’t refer clearly to independence,
Clearly, I’m too stupid.
Hang on, that clearly refers to me being too stupid to be independent. Clearly, I should have added more to that sentence. It was too wee.
No, ‘too wee’ clearly refers to independence as well. You’ll have to forgive me, clearly my language skills are too poor.
Damn, done it again.
Magnus Gardham is like a stuck record, and most heinously for someone who makes a living from writing and unlike say Alan Cochrane, he is not even entertaining at it.
Meanwhile, web stats would suggest interest in Better Together is at record lows while YesScotland are enjoying some of the highest levels of attention since they launched.
Taylorgate relationship? A significant factor I’d venture to suggest.
“I don’t think it is Rod Mac who is disrupting debate on here.”
Well I’m afraid that the Rev does think that anyone who makes up unsubstantiated accusations against others on here of being ‘trolls’ is disrupting debate and is doing this site, and independence in general, no favours – as he said yesterday.
With respect, his views on who is and isn’t disrupting debate on here are of far more relevance than yours. The fact that he also said he has reached the end of his patience with the likes of ‘Rod Mac’ is also of relevance, I’d advise all those who engage in disrupting the thread with unsubstantiated accusations to desist from doing so.
Rod Mac says:
18 April, 2013 at 3:03 pm
I will bid you all farewell folks. I have seen this tactic too many times
Same here. Pretty classic tactic to disrupt a thread. Relentless posting and in the end the thread becomes totally devoted not to the blog post at the top but to the comments from and replies to the disruptor.
In the end everyone execpt for a few die-hards gives up and leaves. It was the same tactic that made the old style Herald threads unreadable in the end.
@Norsewarrior
“Others are happy to engage and debate with me about issues relevant to Scottish independence, if he thinks I’m a ‘troll’, rather than disrupting the site by making up false accusations, or leaving the site, all he has to do is ignore my posts.”
Indeed. It works both ways, though. You may consider ignoring posts you consider trolling too, instead of a stream of replies stating the obvious.
@Norsewarrior
The banking arguments have debunked so many times in the past that what you are saying is nonsense and for your info the Icelandic banks were a far bigger percentage of Icelands GDP than the global banks with Scotland in their names.
“No, ‘too wee’ clearly refers to independence as well. You’ll have to forgive me, clearly my language skills are too poor.”
Are you honestly still attempting to argue that the phrase ‘too poor, too wee’ in relation to Scotland doesn’t refer to independence?!
Ask 100 people on here what that phrase refers to in relation to Scotland, and 100 of them (or 99 if you were one of those asked) would answer ‘independence’!
“You may consider ignoring posts you consider trolling too”
I do ignore posts that I consider trolling.
@Norse et al.
Just ignore those you feel are trolling or making accusations. Getting worked up is silly.
Someone is always wrong on the internet.
link to imgs.xkcd.com
@scottishskier
Thanks for the comprehensive response. The one particular paper not being meaningful in polling terms is interesting. I know the Courier best, which of course has different editions, and a cross section of readers given its place as ‘local’. I wonder what a poll of a thousand of their readers would tell us, of course with age/gender etc selection.
I see your point on the questions, in my BBC R4 work I was involved, a couple of times, with the political research unit carrying out polls for one or other of our news programmes, it always seemed to me to have a certain rigour, attribution was always first or second up.
You seem to be saying, however, there are a fair few non registered polling companies of course. Has that increased?
My most vivid memory of flawed polling was in the weeks before the Major/Kinnock election, most money I’ve ever won at the bookies!
How much does it cost to commission a registered company to carry out a 1000 person telephone survey?
“for your info the Icelandic banks were a far bigger percentage of Icelands GDP than the global banks with Scotland in their names”
Er….yes that’s exactly the point I’m making!! As I said in my original post, Iceland’s economic system isn’t comparable to Scotland and isn’t a good example for an independent Scotland!
New piece on Bella.
Sigh. I thought they’d realised their articles were barely legible and remedied it, but this one is black on dark blue/green. It’s not going to happen. I can’t read that.
““O/T New political party in Scotland””
What’s the betting Donald trump is behind it with funding? Yup, imagine the MSM will give it an amazing amount of space and time for a new party.
@ Morag,
Sigh. I thought they’d realised their articles were barely legible and remedied it, but this one is black on dark blue/green. It’s not going to happen. I can’t read that.
Page is black on white – try reloading page again, if problem persists try later. Its loading fine for me.
Is this a microcosm of what I’m now calling the Great Scottish But?
Here we have a successful independence supporting website, the articles are as erudite as they are informed and page views are constantly rising with viewing stats being broken from one month to the next.
But… The comment section doesn’t work properly, we have claims a smear campaign is being conducted by SNP acti- Hold on a minute… This is getting a bit to weird.
Will this be Newsnight Scotland’s next example of the Great Scottish But?
Rod Mac says:
18 April, 2013 at 3:03 pm
I will bid you all farewell folks .
Ditto. It’s a nuisance having to scroll past it. Off to saw up firewood now
“Just ignore those you feel are trolling or making accusations”
Its a good idea in principle but its very difficult to ignore posts in which someone is making up unsubstantiated accusations against you of being a ‘troll’ and a ‘unionist’ and, as happened to me on here a couple of weeks ago, a ‘holocaust denier’.
Intelligent independence supporters such as you and I fully recognise that it is a great advantage to the cause that independence supporters are a diverse bunch from across the spectrum, many of whom (such as myself) don’t support the SNP and don’t share their views on an independent Scotland and the best way to achieve it.
But unfortunately there appears to be a minority of SNP supporters, some of whom lurk on sites such as this, who automatically regard anyone whose views on independence differ from the officially sanctioned SNP version, as ‘trolls’ and ‘unionists’ and immediately attack, abuse and attempt to discredit such people, regardless of the damage such behaviour does to our chances of getting independence.
Considering how an independent Scotland would have faired in the banking crisis is as redundant as considering how Switzerland would have coped with the Japanese Tsunami. We were not independent, there were no Scottish banks, there was no independent Scottish financial regulation, there was no Scottish Parliamentary oversight and the crash has already happened.
Now that we have the benefits of hindsight we need not ever get into such a situation that the UK got us into.
Bingo!
Page is black on white – try reloading page again, if problem persists try later. Its loading fine for me.
No joy. It may be this out-of-date IE on my office computer, but there’s nothing I can do about that. Most sites are fine, but Bella seem to like to go with arty-farty formatting that screws up unless you have the browser they’re using to check it.
pmcrek
Quite! It has been said that armies practise to fight yesterday’s war. We need to look forwards. There will be challenges in the future. As an independent country we will need a responsive Government and an aversion to naked greed. It won’t protect against all eventualities but it will be a good start.
@Norse.
regardless of the damage such behaviour does to our chances of getting independence.
Which is negligible to nothing at all so I’d not worry about it. This is the internet. Events [in the wider world] change attitudes, not the voices of a few (political anoraks) people commenting on articles on the internet.
If supporters of independence disagreeing with each other on certain points on the internet was a major factor the same would apply for unionists. Tories and Labour voters tear chunks out of each other all the time on politics stories. Hardly a united front there.
Trolls make no difference.
Throwing accusations around makes no difference.
Dirty money from Tories makes a huge difference
Bedroom tax makes a big difference
Tories up for a win in 2015 would make a massive difference
Events/news is what matters and most people discovering WoS will read Rev’s articles and that’s it. Job done. Very few will trawl though the comments and even fewer will post. Those that do will not be shocked to discover some people disagreeing with each other and getting a bit heated. It’s well, normal.
Hence folk should not worry about this nor get into arguments over it.
‘Well I’m not voting for independence because there was some unknown guy on the internet accusing this other unknown guy of saying he was implying something other than what he was saying’.
Aye.
“Considering how an independent Scotland would have faired in the banking crisis is as redundant”
I’m not sure anyone is considering that are they? What I for one am saying is that there are better examples for an independent Scotland to follow economically than the way Ireland or Iceland do and/or did things. Such as Norway.
Some days this site’s blogs entries read like a script from a school playground.
Today is one of them.
Is that all the independence blogs back on line now? The Better Together/Taylor lawyer thing is incredibly over the top considering all this detail is already on the Guardian and other MSM sites. It smacks of Robert Maxwell style silencing of criticism.
It is good to see the youngsters at NC standing up to the Tory BT funder.
I now wish we had the internet in the late 1960’s and 70’s. It brings me back to the time I used to leaflet in tenements that were still gas lit. 🙂
HandandShrimp
Good to see you here I remember your great comments on the Guardian when I used to visit! On the benefits of hindsight:
link to nytimes.com
The only pertinent question I see surrounding the financial crisis in terms of independence is, what are the UK Government doing to protect the Scottish economy and prevent against such a calamity happening again in future? The answer is of course, nothing and making it more likely to happen again, respectively.
pmcrek
Yes, George is eyeing a housing bubble boom rather too desperately for my liking. We had one in the late 80s and crashed in the early 90s and the toxic debt crisis caused by the US housing bubble burst in 2008 has been nearly fatal and yet still they contemplate that road again.
Truly insanity is doing the same thing again and again expecting different results.
Ta for the welcome 🙂 I still plough my slightly wobbly furrow on the Guardian.
STV have picked up on the National Collective / BT / Donorgate story:
link to news.stv.tv
The “We won’t be bullied” post of National Collective today is a wonderful piece of writing. As a tribute to the young lad Gray and to Rev Stu for facing down the bullies –
link to youtube.com
Well done, guys.
NW: Even if there’s only a very slight chance that such comments
I don’t see any chance at all. Honestly, I wouldn’t worry about it.
If everyone was screaming at each other on every site supporting independence with independence supporting parties/important figures constantly at each others throats it might put people off a fair bit, but as you say it is a tiny minority of people on the web having occasional disagreements so no. Completely negligible.
Nobody makes decisions about their voting intention based on what a few folk are arguing about on a website. Ok maybe one or two, but then they’d be balanced out by an equal number of numpties who did this on the other side of the argument.
Seriously, just ignore people if they attack you personally and let the Rev decide who needs a slapped wrist. It’s his place after all.
Ultimately, if comments do make a difference, far more people are likely to be persuaded by people who just ignore the ubiquitous (to the internet) trolls or those making personal accusations/insults and just remain calm, giving reasoned opinions on the matter in hand.
My advice anyway.
Adrian
Good – there is something unseemly about big business and expensive lawyers trying to close down small blogs. I’m glad it is percolating to the surface.
Anyway this argument is pointless, you think the ‘too poor, too stupid’ comment wasn’t referring to independence and I disagree. Let’s leave it at that.
Have just come back in after delivering hundreds of YES leaflets. The talk on the street is very positive and many are praising the healthy discussions on this and other such web sites. A number have asked me whether Norsewarrior is really Tavish Scott in disguise but I reassured them that he was a different dissembler. So ALL GOOD on the doorstep!
Norsewarrior
We all support independence (well apart from Grahamski obviously) and the SNP are providing use with the vehicle to do so. In that they have my full support and gratitude as I am sure they have yours.
On the EU and NATO I diverge from the SNP and I am not actually affiliated to any party. The SNP do tick boxes on health and education so I am not anti as such. Nevertheless, we will, as an independent nation, hold elections and make decisions for many years to come. There will undoubtedly be changes of Government. I just can’t see any point in trying to scry that particular crystal ball. Yet despite all this I can’t say I have ever felt under any pressure from cast iron SNP members. In fact they have generally been very kind to me and my off beat ramblings.
In the context of the comment we are discussing it most certainly did refer to independence,
I would have thought that in the context of the discussion it was referring to the context of the discussion, which wasn’t independence.
‘Morag’, has previously attempted to discredit me as a ‘troll’ and ‘unionist’ on several occasions purely because I don’t support the SNP,
Again, it’s your assumption that it’s because you don’t support the SNP. An assumption that you came to the site with and that you have no evidence to support, but to which you cling like a drowning man to a brick.
If you’re genuinely worried that undecided readers will be swayed to ‘No’ because you’re attacked for not supporting the SNP, then there’s a very simple solution. Stop pretending you’re attacked for not supporting the SNP. In fact, stop pretending that disagreeing with you is attacking you. Stop pretending that you know the political affiliations of anonymous internet posters. Just stop pretending altogether and debate honestly.
For those discussing the in’s and out’s of Iceland/Ireland/GDP etc – I find the United Nations HDR’s (Human Development Reports) very useful.
They are available to view online here:
link to hdr.undp.org
The reports take into account the following factors:
Health,Education,Income,Inequality,Poverty,Gender,Sustainability, Trade, Economy, Income, Innovation & Technology.
Currently some interesting rankings:
Ireland: 7
Iceland: 13
Norway: 1
Denmark: 15
UK: 26
It’s a site worth bookmarking.
To say I am dismayed at the tone of some of the posts here over the last few days is putting it mildly . If I have one suggestion it would be ‘ Leave the infighting to the NO campaign.
If you think someone is a troll ‘ ignore them and certainly dont bait them as that is what they are wanting . We are now so close to making history that it would be stupid if we were to throw it away due to infighting amongst ourselves .
The S.N.P cannot win this by themselves ‘ that is why the YES campaign was created .
We need everyone who wants independence to work together ‘ no matter what their views are of each other right up until the close of polls on the 18/09/2014 .
Once we have secured our YES vote ‘ it will then be time for all the political parties to outline their vision for an Independent Scotland .
For those discussing the in’s and out’s of Iceland/Ireland/GDP etc – I find the United Nations HDR’s (Human Development Reports) very useful.
The quasi-sociopathic Westminster establishment have no interest in Human Development, only in Human Resources. I’ve no doubt that an independent Scotland would have its share of similar politicians – just as it has now – but I’m optimistic that they wouldn’t take control in the way they have in the UK since Thatcher.
Hi Scottish Skier,
The print version of the P&J on Monday 15/04/13 carried their poll results and on page 2 they named the company carrying out the poll as “Ideas in Partnership’. They state that “Responses from 500 people were collected about 10 days ago.” It goes on to say that a company spokesman said “With the exception of some postcodes in Aberdeen,the majority of interviews were carried out by telephone”. Followed by “……..Responses came from a cross section of ages, genders and postcodes across the area”.
You may want to “google” Ideas in Partnership!
HandandShrimp
Just to support your statement, I’m for the most part now a Green voter, I diverge with the SNP on a number of issues, notably NATO, economic growth and carbon capture, while debate can get heated over such topics the SNP have some very good policies, a decent record in Government and great supporters and activists who have put in a load of hard graft to help provide all of us with this one great opportunity.
“The S.N.P cannot win this by themselves ‘ that is why the YES campaign was created . We need everyone who wants independence to work together ‘ no matter what their views are of each other right up until the close of polls”
Exactly. I agree with everything you’ve said.
At last, the BBC mention the dodgy donations
link to bbc.co.uk
“Labour MSP Elaine Smith said that while she had not studied details of the donation it should be “closely looked at”.
“I think if there’s anything suspicious in any way at all about donations then of course they should be handed back,” she added.”
Dear Rev, was just looking at the Collyer Bristow website, they advertise Risk and Reputation Management services. Given that the first rule of Reputation Management would be, “Don’t draw attention to your Client’s bad reputation”, I was wondering whether Mr Taylor should sue them?
Keep up the brilliant work.
OT but Alex Salmond has asked that “Better Together” hand back the donation made by Ian Taylor according to BBC in Scotland. Breathe easy all you bloggers out there!
OT: Could this be Mr Taylors motive for investing in donating to Better Together? link to newswire.ca
There’s a Norsewarrior posts in the Telegraph and joins in with Unionists attacking supporters of independence as being SNP members. I would never have assumed he was for indy if, occasionally, he didn’t mention it. Never seems to attack the Unionists.
Welcome back National Collective but still no coverage in Scotsman of the dirty money and Better Together’s attempts to silence criticism of their major donor.
Yet Scotsman have given Michael Kelly a platform to-day to rubbish Scottish football and independence claiming that the SFA / SPL show that we couldn’t run anything on our own. I would be very surprised to learn that Messrs Regan, Doncaster, Or Rangers orr Celtic board are supporters of independence and I am told that when Mr Kelly was involved with Celtic they were within weeks of closing down.
Alex Salmond has now called for the £500,000 to be returned.
“The Scottish economy also grew by 0.5% over the most recent measured period, while that of the UK continued to shrink.”
It makes me shudder to think of what kind of state Scotland would be in right now if the SNP weren’t the party in power… I don’t agree with all of their policies but they have certainly shown that they are capable of running a country well.
You know I wasn’t going to but this ‘thread’ has provoked me, reading Norsewarrior’s comments, (tho’ on this particular thread I did stop reading their’s and other’s replies to their’s) because I seriously believe that Norsewarrior has problems with social interactions and poor social skills and I make that comment as in no way to be taken as some sort of insult, merely that I recognise the obsessiveness with detail that often accompanies such issues. I think we ought to cut them some slack, I found Morag’s comment witty and not directed at anyone in particular. While I agree that the debates in the comments will not change the course of the debate in the real world, they often contain useful links and new pieces of information, that people will not see, if after reading the fine articles the Rev posts here they don’t bother with the comments because it all boring nit-picky semantics, and that will be a loss to the popular campaign.
Kilty said:
It makes me shudder to think of what kind of state Scotland would be in right now if the SNP weren’t the party in power.
That’s the scary part. By doing that, they have encouraged some to believe that we don’t need independence because the SNP will always protect them from Westminster – or even more naively, that we don’t need independence because Holyrood will always protect us from Westminster whoever is in power there.
Well, first of all, the SNP cannot go on winning Holyrood elections forever, and may not be in a position to do that if independence is defeated. And then who is going to protect us? A Labour/LibDem coalition? Really? And second, even if the SNP is in power. the constaints of the devolution settlement mean that they simply can’t keep this up forever.
People need to know that, I think.
Bitter Together’s response parroted by every unionist is that Ian Taylor “saved the Harris Tweed industry” so just ignore Vitol’s global activities.
However read this blog on Harris Tweed industry
link to angusnicolson.blogspot.co.uk
Caroline Corfield said:
I found Morag’s comment witty and not directed at anyone in particular.
It was intended as a jocular aside, as you said, and not directed at anyone in particular. Quite interesting what it provoked, though.
BBC Scotland Newsdrive has just ‘covered’ the VITOL story. A Salmond saying they should hand it back, J Baillie saying it’s all fine and why don’t the SNP say I Taylor should disinvest in HTH, likewise Willie B taking the HTH line, R Davidson ‘too legally hot to comment’, or some such, all pulled together by G Campbell.
No challenge from GC re the HTH claim to JB or WB, didn’t hear him ask AS to respond to that accusation ……can the YES campaign pleae put togther a clear why the HTH is not relevant rebuttal, so tiresome.
Of course waiting for an MSM article on the HTH red herring could take time, if it ever appears, even if a robust analysis is put out. It looks like the blogosphere will need to lead the way on it.
The narrative is changing on this.
@mchaggis
come oan pal , i know you are annoyed but surely you shouldnt be asking the rev for a donation back that you freely gave.
No way should the rev ban this character.
if he is a unionist troll , and i dont disbelieve what you are saying pal , he will either be annihalated on this board or people will stop feeding him and ignore him.
dont let him get you all worked up. Nothin better to keep a forum buzzin than a few pet unionist trolls.
aw ra best mchaggis
i mean it could be worse.
my wifes been missin fur two weeks and the polis have told me to prepare fur the worst………
so i have just been doon the charity shop tae get her clothes back…
A friend said that he’d heard this song today and it expressed everything he felt about the campaign for independence.
There’s been a wee bit of expessing differing views on this thread today but I’m guessing that irrespective of our different perspectives and opinions on various political parties and their particular policies, it might just be that what unites us all in our drive for independence is best expressed by Labi Siffre – it says it all for me at any rate and it’s why we should all be sticking together IMHO.
link to youtube.com
I see someone much earlier on in this Norsewarrior-themed thread mentioned that there’s a new Energy Party being formed. I’m dead against that you know and thought I’d counter it by forming a Lethargy Party but I …. oh what’s the point.
I don’t understand Unionists equating investing in Harris Tweed with a political donation. People invest in businesses as they want to buy an asset which gives them a return on their capital. Does that mean that Ian Taylor’s donation to BT is an investment? Has he bought a share of their business?
@Rev Stu
One of my posts has disappeared?
A whole bunch of posts have been moved to where they belong. Read this:
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Here’s a quiz.
Ian Taylor and/or Vitol have invested in the following:
> Oil and gas exploitation in the Congo
> Iraqi officials in the Saddam era
> Arkan the war criminal and tiger fancier in Serbia
> Better Together in denial
> Harris Tweed
Which is the odd one out?
I generally find
“I said” +/ “You said” == next comment
works a treat.
I think what LeemacD said is an excellent response to the Harris Tweed diversion.
Does that mean that Ian Taylor’s donation to BT is an investment?
Is there anyone that seriously thinks it isn’t? He’s investing in a Westminster future. I’d hazard a guess that he does so because he thinks a Holyrood future will be less prosperous for him. Guessing any more than that risks straying into defamation territory.
Absolutely gobsmacked to see BBC Scotland reporting on the Taylor donation and mentioning shady dealings!
I wonder if the Reporting Scotland coverage means we’ll actually see someone properly quizzed about it on Newsnicht?
Also, hats off to NC for media management. I told Mr Taylor’s lawyers to piss off a week ago without shutting my site down first, and nobody put ME on the news 😀
“I wonder if the Reporting Scotland coverage means we’ll actually see someone properly quizzed about it on Newsnicht?”
Answering Your Own Question Department: no it doesn’t. Over to you, STV.
“#newsnicht Labour’s ideas for devolving more tax powers. Oxford academic analysis of indy. And Scotparly debates Thatcher legacy.”
I think that the No campaign have been really caught out on this donation. I have no idea why Darling thought this was a good idea to accept this donation, given that Labour MPs had so recently been critical of this person? The attempt to silence National Collective was stupid and clumsy. Jackie Bailie has just said she has no concerns over accepting the donation on Reporting Scotland. She really is horrid…
If a political donation and the acquisition of a business are to be comparable, then that would mean that Ian Taylor owns 50% of BT. The only thing that BT trades in is the future of Scotland. Does that mean that, in the event of a No vote, Ian Taylor owns Scotland on alternate days? We should be told the answer to this important question.
Oh, and Jackie Baillie is happy to accept this donation as well. Better Together indeed!
@Cybor-nat. Thanks.
Ideas in Partnership = market research company
Not pollster and not a member of the British Polling Council so no requirements to meet standards/disclose methods.
Would give little if any credence to such an organisation in terms of political polling. Jeez, even some of the major pollsters have flaws in their methodologies and are constantly researching as to why they don’t agree with each other all the time.
I imagine they were cheap; a survey by e.g. ICM will cost you a lot of money. But then you get what you pay for.
Vitol is trying to get a foothold in North Sea Oil via Canadian oil company “Sterling Resources” link to reuters.com The earlier link I posted is the current status of the venture.
Anyone tried to take the story to the Balkans for a response? There are a number of English online newspapers in Croatia and BiH who might appreciate an article on the subject.
O/T Reporting Scotland had the latest SLAB report into more powers. They have deigned to suggest we can have control over income tax. However, they believe Scotland should not control corporation tax, oil revenues and welfare. Sturgeon’s reply was very good.
I had to laugh at the reason they gave for not giving the Scottish Parliament control over its own oil revenues. Yes, you have guessed right ‘it is to volatile!’ Confirmation, if any was needed, that Unionists do not see Scotland’s oil revenues as a positive, rather they are something to cringe about. What a surprise….
@muttley79,
Labour abstained on Air Passenger Duty in Westminster earlier today. I kidd you not – see Pete Wishart’s tweet
Pete Wishart ?@PeteWishart2h
Excellent speech by @AngusMacNeilMP on air passenger duty. Lab abstain but yet they’re commission recommend its devolution!
link to twitter.com
Adrian, thanks for the link – thats just absolutely crazy from Labour – but yet again, they’re safe in the knowledge that it won’t get reported on the BBC news, especially in Scotland.
On the subject of the BBC, next up for the online chat is Prof Kemp and they are looking for questions on oil and energy – though SS and a few others in the energy sector might put forward some interesting posers. Link here:
link to bbc.co.uk
Ian Taylor is in an interesting position now.
If he continues then the YES campaign, unless they blow it, have a McLibel level case to drum home the point of the Tory funding with links some may consider abhorrent
If he backs down, then the association continues
scottish skier, Still enough for the unionist leaning P&J to have a headline” Set back for independence”.
Rev Stu – Also, hats off to NC for media management. I told Mr Taylor’s lawyers to piss off a week ago without shutting my site down first, and nobody put ME on the news
You need to get yourself an Aamer Anwar. 🙂
@creag an turic – bingo! Wondering when this would come up. I think this is the endgame, for Vitol (the world’s largest oil company? I have seen it referred to as such) to gain a controlling interest in Scotland’s oil. I think there is a lot more digging to be done regarding this company…and I hope there is some way to block this project. Who knows what the Tories in Westminster have promised him for his party political donations?
@erchie
As I said higher up for YES to do that they need to drown out the Harris Tweed canard.
If Ian Taylor gives the Tories £2 or £3 million next GE will Darling ,Baillie et al remain quiet?
Albaha
Sorry, missed that, probably still smarting from having my erase skelped by the Rev.
You have a point. Ridiculous as it is it is a perfect Chewbacca Defence
@Rev Stu … “Also, hats off to NC for media management. I told Mr Taylor’s lawyers to piss off a week ago without shutting my site down first, and nobody put ME on the news”.
Ah Rev, I think you had your time in the sun back in the 90s, I remember those days too before the interwebby thing, when print was king! Sniff. 😉
Anyhoo, Better Together want to keep the cash because their funds gathered from within Scotland are poor, they need outside cash to operate and more pressure from highlighting criticism, from Labour sources on Taylor in the past (Messrs Mann and wee Dougie), will make them out to be the unbelievable hypocrites they are. Maybe someone should inform Jackie Bailey down at Greggs that she’s doing herself nae favours at all as she rails against her own party’s criticism of Taylor donations. As for Willie Rennie, who cares!
Macart says:
18 April, 2013 at 1:12 pm
@Arb
I see the new wing is coming along nicely for recent converts.
Plans are now well advanced for phase THREE to start! 😆
LeeMacD says:
18 April, 2013 at 2:04 pm
That would explain it.
Have you seen the BT STUC Work Together rally? They’re tweeting about having people standing in the packed room. of course, it helps if you only have a room big enough for 16 seats.
link to twitter.com
WOW! looking at that picture I’d say they were on the verge of getting into double figures if they are not careful! 😆
Adrian B says:
18 April, 2013 at 4:33 pm
STV have picked up on the National Collective / BT / Donorgate story:
link to news.stv.tv
I wonder if there is a lawyer’s letter now winging its way towards STV now as well?
Rev Stu.
It seems that I have inadvertantly started a mild version of WWIII on here this afternoon for which I unreservedly apologise!
By way of explanation I was only trying to draw comparisons between Iceland (and later Ireland) with the UK based on the fact that Brown and others seem to regularly use them as ways of putting down Scotland. I am no expert on much of anything but my reading of the tables I referred to would suggest to me that they might find it a good idea to stop such comparisons based on the fact that both countries leave UK dead in the water when you look at these tables. Thanks to Tartanfever for his link which gives an even more drastic view on the standing of UK.
tartanfever says:
18 April, 2013 at 5:04 pm
For those discussing the in’s and out’s of Iceland/Ireland/GDP etc – I find the United Nations HDR’s (Human Development Reports) very useful.
They are available to view online here:
link to hdr.undp.org
Again I can only apologise to you Rev and everyone else for starting something akin to a world war, I’ll now refrain from further posts for a short period of time to give everyone time to cool down and let normal service resume.
scottish skier, Still enough for the unionist leaning P&J to have a headline” Set back for independence”.
Two points on a graph do not a trend make. I believe they concluded that support for No was up and for yes down compared to a year ago in the NE. Well, lets say the values are not utter rubbish and fit the country-wide trend…
They polled early 2012 when Y was still quite high before falling back while No climbed to peak October 2012.
If they’d polled in late 2012 to add a 3rd point (which really is the basic minimum for any trend) they’d in all probability be concluding from the latest survey that No was now falling and Yes was rising.
Schoolboy error stuff.
RevStu said: Also, hats off to NC for media management. I told Mr Taylor’s lawyers to piss off a week ago without shutting my site down first, and nobody put ME on the news
I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT YOUR TIME WILL COME!
@erchie
It’s the realisation, yet again, that the MSM word count ticker will fall on the BT side. This is the type of story that matters.
I’ve said it before, the BT lot are well versed in the dark arts of spin.
muttley79 says:
18 April, 2013 at 6:54 pm
I had to laugh at the reason they gave for not giving the Scottish Parliament control over its own oil revenues. Yes, you have guessed right ‘it is to volatile!’ Confirmation, if any was needed, that Unionists do not see Scotland’s oil revenues as a positive, rather they are something to cringe about. What a surprise….
I read that as meaning that despite pushing the idea that the bottom is going to fall out of the world oil market the day after a Yes vote, they know its just going to go up in price, and there’s no way they are going to let go of it.
Ian Taylor has invested money in HTH and is a shareholder. If the company is profitable he makes a profit. That is business and he is a businessman. That is not the same as a political donation. Rather disturbing that Baillie doesn’t know there is a difference. Not knowing there is a difference could lead to all sorts of problems….oh wait
“Schoolboy error stuff.”
I think this would be a bad assumption to make, making out as if it is an error. Not to say that people shouldn’t be given the benefit of the doubt, but there are only so many times that this can be done before it becomes detrimental to all.
Albaha
It doesn’t need any dark art. Art implies effort and skill. Little of either is required, as the main sources of news default to the Unionist/Anti-SNP side. No spin needed.
That’s why I, amongst others, donated to the site holder to dissect the news and give a more even-handed analysis.
Something I miss from the old Scotsmam
@HandandShrimp
As you know it’s not about that it’s simply about what message will lodge in the average voter’s thinking/pondering/how will I vote cerveau area.
@erchie
Yes that, to be fair, goes without saying, however those of us willing to support WOS will not decide the ultimate outcome.
Ruth Davidson seemed to be in full “No comment!” mode on the BBC item. Odd as I think that she is about the only one with a slightly defendable position. Meantime the rest of the BT baboons chattered away as you would have expected.
Is this a new tactic for the BBC. “That’s it we have covered it. Move along nothing more to see here!” Would not surprise me.
Re – Horace’s post on ‘oil revenues not being devolved because they are too volatile’
Does anyone know what the UK’s reliance on the finance industry was/is ? I would have thought it may be a similar proportion to oil on an independent Scotland’s GDP, if so, thats a nice wee argument to throw back to them.
I think this would be a bad assumption to make, making out as if it is an error.
I said if you only have two points and make an assumption that the relationship between them is a straight line then that’s a Schoolboy error.
The article as I understood it did this to an extent by implying their data showed No was climbing and yes was falling. If they had a third point in between the two they had, they’d most likely be concluding the opposite as all the other polls are showing.
Two points either side of a peak….
Support for something can be higher than you measured last time but actually falling. If you missed the peak that is.
Albans which is why we must be portrayed as ranting lunatic CyberNats, so that our word carries no weight.
I despair of politicians of the YES camp accepting ths idea, because no matter how rational or mild, we are all cybernats
tartanfever says:
18 April, 2013 at 7:45 pm
Re – Horace’s post on ‘oil revenues not being devolved because they are too volatile’
Does anyone know what the UK’s reliance on the finance industry was/is ? I would have thought it may be a similar proportion to oil on an independent Scotland’s GDP, if so, thats a nice wee argument to throw back to them.
This article is suggesting it was 9.6% in 2011.
link to cityam.com
@erchie
Well that’s the point to an extent. If you don’t play ball, or at least a variation of the ball deemed acceptable, with the people inside the tent, then you’re out.
It’s worth reading the NC article today, they give lots of thanks to those on the inside. It’s a different way to play, I suppose.
I’m wittering now, getting over the line that’s the point.
Does anyone know what the UK’s reliance on the finance industry was/is ?
Our reliance on it, as a percentage of the economy, was less important than the potential liability it created. The financial industry didn’t need to be a huge part of the economy to wreak havoc, it only needed to be able to lose huge sums of money. The price of oil may well fluctuate, but it’s never going to go into the negative in the spectacular way the financial industry did.
To be fair to the Beeb (radio at least) they covered the Food for Oil fine in the States and the Arkan link so the listeners can easily deduce that there are real issues and also that BT are desperate to keep the cash and aren’t interested in said issues. Can you imagine what would have been said by Grahamski and co if Taylor had donated to Yes? Then there would have been no hesitation in trotting out Mann’s comments (Ruth would most likely be consistent and say no comment).
I am old enough to remember when gay meant happy ,so all this talk of spin annoys me.
It is LYING pure and simple , Unionist lies ,not unionist spin ,or are we going to have “Parliamentary speech?”
If Bailie does not have any concerns about this donation from Taylor, would she have any concerns over anything at all? Does Bailie posses any principles? Does she have any morals? Has she any self-awareness at all?
muttley79 says:
18 April, 2013 at 8:12 pm
If Bailie does not have any concerns about this donation from Taylor, would she have any concerns over anything at all? Does Bailie posses any principles? Does she have any morals? Has she any self-awareness at all?
No , No, No and NO
John says: 18 April, 2013 at 1:57 pm
Because unemployed people are being put through hoops to find non-existent jobs (with the constant threat of sanctions) it isn’t surprising to me that number of so called self-employed has been growing at a great rate in recent years – its much easier to live on tax credits than be subject to the dehumanizing treatment of the DWP and their agents.
Mark says: 18 April, 2013 at 2:29 pm
Like many Scots, I work in the service industries, and at the moment many employers are abusing the system, and only taking on staff for temporary 3 month contracts through recruitment agencies. This means that staff have no job security (meaning I can’t obtain credit as a direct result) and limited employment rights (I can effectively be sacked for no reason, because I’m technically temping, and they can simply say they need one less temp). This is a very common situation in Edinburgh, and I expect it’s the same elsewhere.
Roughly accounting for inflation, I hope my 1.94p worth might strike a cord. I came across an obscure document that suggested that “recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world”. Possibly a bit hippy drippy for some and perhaps not relevant to Scotland’s independence. Well, the document did go on to suggest we should strive to ensure that everyone was able to “enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want”. Without this, the document suggested that we might “be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression”.
The document I refer to is the UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS, as mandated by the THE UN GENERAL ASSEMBLY (link to un.org). For all those busy readers, here are a couple of its Articles that I think are particularly relevant.
I challenge anyone to convince me that we will come within a million miles of achieving these ambitions, without rejecting whatever flavour of austerity has been promised by the red, yellow and blue Westminster party. Even if they use every drop of oil and whiskey they can drain out off us.
Article 21
(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.
Article 22
Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.
Article 23
(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.
Article 25
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.
P.S. Good to see you HandandShrimp. Re. the next housing bubble. This is exactly how the planning consultants LeighFisher are suggesting that HS2 will be paid for. Of course, HS2 can be expected to further exacerbate the north/south divide.
“The project’s affordability could be dramatically improved by taking advantage of gains in land values. These could be very large, with land prices for residential development in the South East fetching millions of pounds per acre against just a few thousand for arable land. In London of course the gains would be order of magnitudes greater (but there is no arable land left to take), while further north the gains will be less than the South East but still very significant”.
(http://www.leighfisher-globaloutlook.com/feature/Surface-Transport/Europe/1600/High-Speed-2–Let39s-have-some-joined-up-thinking).
Vote Yes in 2014.
Anyhow, theres a nice dark cloud hovering over Labours conference called donorgate and together with Lamonts laughable ”extra powers” that sees them prefer welfare to be under the control of the tories and westminster and that oil revenue is too volatile for Scotland to handle, should see it all fall apart even under moderate questioning.
Over to you BBC..lol
As Alex Salmond pointed out today ,he knew he would get no questions from Unionist cabal today on unemployment.
They will only mention when the figures are bad, and then blame SNP.
When good ,or should I say better like Wee Willie Rennie he accuses us of their trait ,it is a classical Unionist distortion and blaming us for their faults
Scottish_Skier, I apologise, I wasn’t trying to argue against the conclusion you came to and would actually agree with it. I was merely suggesting that given past evidence of the articles in the P&J, I would think that rather than an error being made concerning the lack of a third point it would seem to be intentional.
I always enjoy reading your analyses of such things, so thank you for that.
can the YES campaign pleae put togther a clear why the HTH is not relevant rebuttal, so tiresome.
I think that by pointing repeatedly to the Labour Party describing it as ‘dirty money’ (for the exact same reasons as the YES campaign) when he gives it to Tories
and perfectly fine when it’s for Better Together….you really don’t need any counter rebuttal….folk are perfectly capable of spotting hypocracy themselves…..
Most importantly Labour party members and voters will be fully aware of the hypocracy…..there is already a growing disconnect between the SLAB leadership and it’s members and supporters…..this sort of thing can only increase that tension….which is good news for the YES campaign.
And let’s be honest the whole stushie has probably made many more well connected millionaires think twice about writing BT a cheque……(more good news for the Yes campaign).
Anyway (and I’m willing to be corrected) as far as I’m aware the £500K was just the FIRST installment from Taylor he has made a pledge for another £500K……so Taylor/Vitol really is the gift that keeps on giving for the Yes campaign
‘
‘We accepted it in good faith’ is at best a semi credible excuse this time……accepting the 2nd payment well that just won’t wash…..and as it is closer to the Referendum more people will notice……another boost for the Yes campaign
So even if BT scramble a proverbial late consolation goal with the HRH line they are still down by 2 away goals and there’s the away leg in the Camp Nou still to come.
@Kilty.
Nae bother. I should have been more clear that while I don’t know much about how the poll was conducted (although have my doubts about quality), the clear schoolboy error I saw was the connecting of two points to make a trend…
As for intentionally promoting polls favouring ‘No’ and hiding ones that look good for ‘Yes’; that can only harm No IMO. I’ve never seen any evidence that people change their minds due to what polls say. The only possible influence is apathy, i.e. if it looks like X is going to romp home according to the news, then more apathetic X voters don’t bother voting. In that sense, the pro-union campaign should take great care in shouting that ‘Nobody want’s independence’ from the rooftops.
Kilty
As an Aberdonian…The Peenj and Evening are hardly bastions of great journalism and do have a thing for rich men and mindlessly supporting their developments (see Trump/Sir Ian Wood)
…..but one of the reasons the Peenj in particular is Scotland biggest selling ‘broadsheet’ is that it has in large part understood that it’s readership is made up of all the shades of the political spectrum…..in fact like the area it represents it’s generally apolitical….
I’m willing to be corrected but I’ve never known it to endorse any political party
Generally in the North East, yer politics like yer religon are considered a private matter and not for public discussion……
There maybe a touch on Unionist bias there…..but a paper that serves the SNP heartland is unlikely to ever descend into the lunacy we’ve seen for the Scotsman…..and to be honest its probably more incompetance and cock up than conspiracy when it does come thru.
thomas says:
18 April, 2013 at 6:09 pm
i mean it could be worse.
my wifes been missin fur two weeks and the polis have told me to prepare fur the worst………
so i have just been doon the charity shop tae get her clothes back…
HAHAHAHA Post of the year Thomas!
Going back to growth of 0.5%, this shows once again that our ‘friends’ at Fraser of Allander are completely inept (I think their forecast for the same period was that Scotland’s economy would contract, or a very, very (0.1% expansion?).
On Mr Taylor, it’s been noted above that he made an ‘investment’ in HTH and one may wonder if he’s making a similar ‘investment’ in BT. There may be far more to come out on Mr T’s investments as, so far, commentary has in the main been around Vitol, but not on the dealings of it’s many and varied associated companies, or on the other 16 or so directorships held in the UK including dormant companies, or on the many and varied non Vitol related directorships and share holdings held overseas (e.g. Sarparea Resort and Spa, an Italian resort company so exclusive you need a password to view it’s website). I haven’t even done any research at all yet on Shell pre 1985.
Unfortunately I do not have the time, or resource rot carry out the extensive research I’d like to but, if there are any investigative journalists out there, I suspect there’s some low hanging fruit.
Sorry, should be ‘to carry out …’. The spillchucker’s forked.