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Two men dealt amongst the chill

Posted on July 23, 2016 by


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    1. 23 07 16 08:56

      Two men dealt amongst the chill | speymouth

    250 to “Two men dealt amongst the chill”

    1. frogesque says:

      Jonny the Bullshit on a loser with that one!

    2. Effijy says:

      Great again Chris, but could we have John Bull In an Ejector
      Seat! lol

      Just picked up this survey from Business for Scotland.

      The more participants ranking the Whopping Lies that Westminster called a Vow, the better.

      Could be interesting if our Star Contributors, (Especially the Rev) posted their own scoring preferences?

      You know that you want too:

    3. Macandroid says:

      Did survey yesterday and have just signed the petition. It will be interesting if anything comes of it. Actually it’ll be more like a miracle!

      Fun toon Chris

    4. Paula Rose says:

      Fab cartoon Chris – please ensure next week’s is up nice and sharpish as well, because lots of us will be setting out early to get to Glasgow for a wee stroll.

    5. TheItalianJob says:

      The U.K. are in pickle ref the EU and they know it. Scotland won’t be able to remain in the EU and the U.K.

      There is only one solution for Scotland and we know what that is and Westminster for some strange reason don’t like it.

    6. Marie Clark says:

      Effijy, just clicked on your link for survey/monkey, and got the message “you’ve already taken the survey”. Em, naw, I hivnae taken the survey. Weird or whit.

      Great cartoon Chris, I always enjoy seeing Hamish again.

    7. E for English Nationalism, Egalitarianism and Empty promises

    8. Macart says:

      Charade isn’t just a game.

      noun: an absurd pretence intended to create a pleasant or respectable appearance. “talk of unity and concern was nothing more than a charade”

      synonyms:farce, pantomime, travesty, mockery, parody, pretence, act, masquerade, sham, fake, false display, show, front, facade.

      Neatly done Chris. 🙂

    9. Auld Rock says:

      Effijy, I did Business Scot survey in which you’re asked to rank 12 lies, 1 to 12 in importance, I wanted to rank them all ‘1’.

      Auld Rock

    10. Ghillie says:

      Aww, it’s good to see Hamish again = )

    11. call me dave says:

      Hamish…just two fingers will do it!

      Rather agree with Prof J. Peterson on radio shortbread who reckons an independent Scotland is coming. ?

      The leavers have committed political suicide and huge economic problems and ensured the breakup of the UK.

      He was only on for a minute as he was scaring the horses!

      Discussion moves onto hard borders which I thought would be interesting but it was only in reference to the Irish situation…surely missing something important.

      Northern Ireland farmers rely on 87% of their income from EU subsidies who’s going to pay now and United Ireland on the table.

      Morning all.

    12. Capella says:

      Brexit: Cameron considered last-ditch appeal to Merkel –
      BBC article says he tried to reprise “THE VOW” to win the EU ref.

    13. call me dave says:

      I’ve apparently already done survey…No I haven’t ?

    14. Artyhetty says:

      Excellent image there!

      The link for Business for Scotland survey.

      The one posted earlier does say you have done survey already, the link must be wrong.

    15. Grouse Beater says:

      Does anybody know what the difference is between Boris and his gang saying they’ll make England great again, and Trump and his gang saying he’ll make America great again?

    16. Brian McHugh says:

      It’s 14 words.

    17. K1 says:

      Hand Up Grouse! I know, I know…is the answer: none?

      Honestly am running out of words when commenting about your ‘toons Chris…probably cause a’ve ran out of words about this farce that we are currently living through. We’re never done pointing out the absurdities of being part of the UK. When o when will this be over…even charade’s gets tiresome as a game when it goes on for this long.

    18. dramfineday says:

      Grouse Beater: a) 3000 miles or thereby of ocean? b) One has a fleet and the other one has two inshore lifeboats armed with catapults? c) One is a dangerous buffoon, the other is a dangerous fool? I’ll leave it there as I think you were looking for something more in the way of a sensible response.

      PS Did you see Jon Stewart tearing Trump a new one the other day?
      PPS Very nice toon this morning Mr Cairns

    19. Nana says:

      Love your cartoons Chris, charades not so much. Especially when played by cheats who bend the rules.

      I put the link for the survey up yesterday afternoon on the previous thread. It still works

    20. Jimmy the pict says:

      @Brian McHugh

      16 as EU and UK count as two each. I think

    21. Bill says:

      Apparently I’ve also done the survey! I haven’t. What’s going on?

    22. Liz Rannoch says:

      Well done – as usual, it’s his wee bunnet I like.

      You’ve already taken the survey’ apparently I’ve done it too! As for the EBC bias one I KNOW I did this one months ago but I’ve managed to do it again! for me and Mr R!

      ‘Ere, any Expectancy of Ever Exiting this Evil Enemy. It’s Essential we Escape this Empire of Envy and Evel. Enough is Enough.

      Right that’s ma brain frazzled way for ma porage.

    23. Lee Rogers (@LeeRogers1314) says:

      @ Brian McHugh, 9.02

      12 words + (2 x 2 initials) = 16 words


    24. Bill says:

      I’ve asked Survey Monkey for an answer.

    25. Marcia says:

      Call me dave

      BBC Shortbread should issue a statement to the die hard Unionist who listen to people like the Professor, ‘If you have been effected by the comments of the guest our helpline that plays propaganda is availabe on 0141 1690 1707’…..

    26. Richardinho says:

      Tbh, it looks like this is going to happen by the UK government putting off triggering article 50 indefinitely.

    27. Breeks says:

      “It’s unforgivable. I lost my temper. The maddening thing is he’s right. We’re on our own. We’ve been playing for time. And it’s running out”.

      Ralph Richardson in MGM’s Battle of Britain 1969.

    28. galamcennalath says:

      Superb cartoon. Captures this ‘phoney war’ where everyone is pretending there are options where Scotland gets to remain in the EU, more or less, and in the UK.

      There are only two likely outcomes …

      1) Scotland takes the Indy route to full EU membership.

      2) By means uncertain, WM manages to avoid Brexit.

      … plus a Yoon wishful option ….

      3) WM tries to entice Scotland to Brexit with a wondrous Vow offering a commission to explore SuperDevoFederalism after Brexit. (I am not joking, just wait!)

      … and the zero chance one …

      4) Scotland in both EU and UK.

      Why the charade, though?

      My wishful thinking on that is the SG/SNP are exploring all options to give soft NOs and non Tory politicians a simple binary choice at the end of the day.

    29. Breeks says:

      Skids fan Chris? ?

    30. Famous15 says:

      I heard a joke on Good Morning Scotland. “the respected,independent think tank,Reform Scotland”

    31. carjamtic says:

      Nices work Chris 🙂

      Supposing,Supposing two men were frozen and one lied,would the other be Edward Snowden ?

      No….forgot,we’re only supposing….well must be EBC then…

      Time to go,forcoffeeee..

    32. louis.b.argyll says:

      There’s nothing wrong with English nationalism, so long as that is all it is.

      The problem is the lunatic fringes at both ends of England’s social scale, keeping the rest in ignorant bliss.

    33. David McCann says:

      Another great cartoon Chris. Keep them coming.
      Off topic, but an unashamed plug for good indy friends of mine who have gone through very tough times with having to support their wee boy’s cerebral palsy.
      I know Wingers are generous, so have a wee look and try to give something.

    34. The Whitehall Farce will rumble on and on. Westminster hasn’t even begun to analyse what ‘Brexit’ means never mind put a team together to sidle out onto the Continental Shelf and threaten to jump to its EU death if the 27 don’t do as they’re told..
      Besides, they’re all off on 8 weeks holibags. England grinds to a halt.It’s officially ‘summer’.
      While our kids Up Here are being dragged to budget supermarkets and fitted with the cheapest school togs their ‘hard working families’ (q.v. Margaret Curran and the Fucking Useless Failed Forty)can afford out of their below poverty line wages, and will return to school the second week in August, BBC Breakfast will start their School Summer Holidays ‘season’, live from Brighton Beach, with doubtless a Roadshow chronicling young English Schoolkids at summer play ‘throughout the country’.
      WE all know that NS is playing the Long Game.
      Ruth Davidson, Willie and Yankee Doodle Dandy Dugdale say NO, and so do Ian Murray, Liar Carmichael, and the Grand Panjandrum Himself, Nervously Muttering Mundell.
      In fact 594 Unionist MPs say No, so we will have to leave the EU, and there’s an end to it.
      Aye, right.
      The only outcome is another Self Determination Referendum.
      England is waiting for the second Scottish boot to drop. They know it’s coming, and that we are divorcing them.
      Can’t wait for Radio Scotland live from Gullane with their Summer Teen Madness Concert.
      FWIW, I managed to sign the petition without any bother.

    35. Macart says:

      Listening to the metroset discussing Brexit this morning and did you know that people are afraid? Shocking, I know.

      Aye, apparently the government not having a ‘plan’ for such a contingency was an eye opener and as for the brexiteers? Well who knew they had nothing better to offer than empty slogans and misleading statements. Y’know I don’t think England’s electorate were paying much attention when their government put project fear to the Scottish electorate? Well they’re paying attention now they’ve had a taste for themselves. Wonder how all that one nation unity is going down about now, what with the escalation of racially motivated acts of intimidation?

      The returns of any narrative based on otherness and utterly fucking predictable. When you force feed the public a message of difference, suspicion, misdirection, scapegoating and otherness, don’t be fucking surprised when you enable and embolden certain elements and certain attitudes within your society. Don’t be surprised when you swell the ranks of those elements and DO NOT be surprised when those elements and attitudes grow enough to affect the outcomes of economy and society crippling ballots.

      Oh and the capper? Mr Hammond now warning of a ‘fiscal reset’ required in the autumn budget.

      Who knew?

      I wonder if they’ve even spotted the difference yet between the two referendums? The Scottish government were ‘required’ to produce a plan, the white paper Scotland’s future. They put together the group of special economic advisors. They promoted the idea of inclusion and joining in, and whilst unpopular with some, retaining membership of the EU.

      Where were all of these requirements in the EU referendum? Scotland’s conversation took the better part of a parliamentary term and the campaign, the better part of a year. The EU ref? It felt like five minutes and was led by the nose on nothing better than media generated fear and slogans from both sides in the bubble. A pissing contest and power struggle gone wrong.

      That is the cost of fear and uncertainty.

      Well the Scottish government still have a plan and a council of advisors and an EU mandate.

      If they feel the need to ask the electorate one more time ‘Should Scotland be an independent country?’, simply remember the EU referendum and how the UK parliament and its two major parties have acted pre, during and post. Remember what their promises were worth in the 23 months since our own referendum. Remember what they have done to the UKs electorate, its society and ask yourself what ‘kind’ of country do I want to live in?

    36. call me dave says:


      You caught the essence there.

      Kurt Jurgens didn’t stay for tea & scones. Maybe Hamish should do the same.

      Survey done thanks to new link. 🙂

    37. The Isolator says:


      That’s what I’m thinking..nice pick up and great toon as always Chris.

      Hope the link works…enjoy

    38. PS.
      I expect one of the Unionist Dead Tree Scrolls to offer Chris funny money to join their team, and bury him in the basement vaults mixing colours for their resident cartoonist.
      Acerbic and nail on the head as usual, Mr C.

    39. mike cassidy says:

      Callmedave 8.49

      Bill 9.19

      It’s Schroedinger’s Survey.

      You’ve done it – and you haven’t!

    40. Sandra Riddell says:

      Regarding the survey coming up as already completed – I’d imagine that’s because whoever posted the link has already done it. Maybe try to track it down on Business Scotland FB or Twitter feed.

    41. starlaw says:

      Seems to me T May will not move on article 50 until all parts of the UK are in agreement. This will not happen unless Both Scotland’s and N Ireland assemblies are abolished. Both could be replaced by Governor Generals who will accede to Westminster’s wish’s then Brexit can go ahead. What then ?

    42. Ken500 says:

      The Tories have ruined the world conomy and broken up the UK. They are the most useless incompetents ever put on the Planet Cameron is the worst PM ever. He is a malicious liar. The Tories are finished in te UK. Thatcher was bad enough. Interest rates at 15% and unemployment at over 3million (with a lower population). Soon it will be impossible to get in and out of England/Wales, without delays.

    43. Bill says:



    44. Brian McHugh says:

      I was counting the EU as two words Jimmy the Pict… the other pair are dirty words that shouldn’t be counted. 🙂

    45. Grouse Beater says:

      Grouse, Did you see Jon Stewart tearing Trump a new one the other day?

      I did. He’s right, no political party ‘owns’ America.

      Something for the weekend:

    46. geeo says:

      @capella .

      Despite being the BBC, interesting story there.
      Cameron seemingly had limits to what scare stories he would use in the EU ref, yet had no such qualms whatsoever, no matter how ridiculous, in the indyref.
      Seems that there IS a severe financial impact of the vote to leave the uk, despite NO Article 50 yet, and no sign there will ever be one any time soon.

      The day Article 50 actually IS invoked should be an interesting one, but not as much as when the indyref is announced soon after.

      Popcorn shares continue to soar in value…..?

    47. Ian Mackay says:

      “Two men dealt amongst the chill”

      So from ‘Charade’ by The Skids then. Here is the song on youtube, neatly introduced by that pillar of the BBC establishment Jimmy Saville:

      The band still played
      Through the interval
      Candle lit but the room was still
      While two men dealt amongst the chill
      The stakes were high but the danger low
      Without a friend these risks would grow
      This the night their eyes would glow
      The band played on like a dazzling flame
      Another card for the burning game
      Selling solitude to ease the blame
      Then the time came to run or choose
      Either way one would fail and lose
      Gamble a partner and dim the fuse

    48. Cag-does-thinking says:

      You know I sometimes almost admire the BBC for their desperate attempts to polish a turd.

      So on BBC news channel the travel show

      “People ask us how Brexit will affect their holidays. We can’t see any changes to be likely in the short term (I paraphrase but you ge the gist)

      Meanwhile on BBC news ten minutes earlier.

      People have spent all night in Dover after the French processing desk for incoming travellers was reduced to one person overnight on the first day of the English school holidays.

      Of course it was accidental/co-incidental…..

    49. scottieDog says:

      I’m thinking there might be a kind of ‘vow2’ where ‘assurances’ are given to a ‘billigerent’ sturgeon. The media will make out that although the uk gov ‘are bending over backwards’ to cater for scotland nicola is being deliberately obstinate in order to fashion an indyref2.

    50. heedtracker says:

      Grouse Beater says:
      23 July, 2016 at 8:53 am
      Does anybody know what the difference is between Boris and his gang saying they’ll make England great again, and Trump and his gang saying he’ll make America great again?

      The massive difference is the whole of the US media does not fawn, worship, venerate, grovel to Trump.

      Whereas here in toryboy teamGB, royals, Thatcher 2, tory stuffed shirts like Ruth Davidson etc are all treated like goddesses by all UKOK media and the the BBC in particular.

      Trump would kill for a UKOK toryboy media like ours. Who knows, maybe he will.

    51. Edward says:

      Saw an interesting tweet from Paul Kavanagh regarding comments made by the Spanish Foreign minister re Gibraltar and Scotland.

      Paul also wrote up about it on his blog (despite suffering from manful – hope your feeling better by the way)

      Paul also had a link to the Spanish tv station’s website, for the video, but mentioned that it might not be on the website for much time.

      However I think I found the same video on youtube, which is the whole programme and in Spanish

      The point of all this is I was wondering if any techy geniuses could work with someone who knew Spanish and isolate the bit of interest from the programme and put English subtitles on the clip?

      If that could be done then could be pushed out there as obviously its not getting any coverage any time soon from the main stream media

      (I removed the https bit in front of the links as I wasn’t sure it would pass protocols)

    52. starlaw says:

      My thoughts exactly, would end up with a lot of bad feeling against Scots, specially those living in England.
      Council elections in May could be crucial, to set Scotland up for Indie 2

    53. Luigi says:

      Johnny Bull’s feet-dragging over Article 50 serves Hamish well. More time for support for independence to grow. 🙂

      It’s not endless, however: I think the EU will allow a period of grace up to the end of the year. If Johnny cannot get his act together by then, I think the EU will push its own nuclear button (whatever that is) and the UK will be ejected. No doubt, the yoons will scream: “They cannae dae that!”. No? Just watch them.

      My only concern is for the proud scot baby boomers who would rather go down with the union than contemplate a different, brighter future. They will turn out in huge numbers to vote NO again. Less than two years have passed – most of them are still around, still spitting at the SNP – yes some buyers remorse already, but demography will win the day in the end. It’s not stupidity, it’s just a stubborn belief system: very difficult to deal with. The more time to increase support for independence, the better. e are not quite there yet IMO.

    54. Heather McLean says:

      I can’t pretend to know anything about computers and posting links but I believe it’s something to do with cookies? After you’ve taken the survey and try to post the link, the survey remembers that you’ve already taken it?
      I’ve coped this link from my iPhone from which I haven’t already done the survey so hopefully it will work, otherwise, I haven’t a clue!

    55. yesindyref2 says:

      Re the 14 words of 16 words, John Bull being a Unionist and prone to grossly exaggerate and totally make up figures, it should probably have been “… 125 million words …”, and include the words “subsidy, black hole and (my favourite) fiscal transfer”.

    56. yesindyref2 says:

      @Macart “Mr Hammond now warning of a ‘fiscal reset’”

      Oh don’t make me laugh, that’s another nice sounding term average will be abusing soon. I’m surprised he hasn’t invented “fiscal punishment” for iScotland, but you saw it here first!

    57. Swami Backverandah says:

      Hah! Tory supporting ‘pal’ of Ruth Davidson FEDeans gets a comprehensive thrashing on twitter for a comment suggesting the ‘oddness’ of a person born in a different country becoming an MP in the country they were raised, and then tries to play it down by suggesting it was ‘just a quip’.

      That “Ye can’t be a migrant and hold office can ye” type-comment is really nauseatingly stomach-churning, bordering on the xenophobic.

      Perhaps FEDeans is doing a FE 101 course in Spannerisms.

      Just completed the witty quip module, can’t wait to see the evidence of the next module on bantz.

    58. Dan Huil says:

      Speaking abour charades:

      “And who could forget Theresa May’s expression of amazement when Boris Johnson was given A Town Like Alice and she saw Neville Shute in his face”.

      “Imagine Johnson’s frustration when he wasn’t allowed to use his mouth to finish off Two Gentlemen of Verona.”

      “Who could forget that famous occasion on which Liam Fox, vigorously moving his hands back and forth in a steady rhythmic action, pulled off One Man and His Dog in under two minutes.”

    59. heedtracker says:

      My only concern is for the proud scot baby boomers who would rather go down with the union than contemplate a different, brighter future.

      56 out 59 Westminster MP’s SNP, SNP Holyrood, Scots EU citizenship ripped up in front of us, just the latest in a really miserable line up of BetterTogether lies, from EVEL to Trident 2, Clyde navy shipping gone, Labour self destruction, Thatcher 2 for decades, unionist controlled councils like Aberdeen destroying Scottish cities with more garbage white elephants, corrupt tory BBC Scotland belching out relentless UKOK tory propaganda, did I mention EVEL…

      Can beat a good rant of Saturday morning:D

      Next and last will YES 62% or,

      tory BBC Scotland 5 year plan, Brexit a brilliant tory Westminster triumph, SNP Westminster down to half by 2020, they’ve already managed to block SNP Holyrood majority, relentless attack on our perceptions of Scottish government ability to actually run Scotland, your NHS is shite, your schools are worse, cant build a Forth Bridge, cops are incompetent, Ruth Davidson is a genius not a stuffed shirt and massive teamGB Brazil Olympics nationalism rammed down Scots throats this year, all amounts to quite a battle for the britnats of Scotland.

    60. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Nana et al.

      As somebody posted above, the DIRECT link (without having to go to Twitter) to the BfS survey is:-

      When posting a link to a survey, you have to copy/paste the url on the front page, BEFORE you take the survey, not the url AFTER you’ve done the survey. That’s why people are being told that they’ve already taken part..

    61. Macart says:


      Ayup, they can call it whatever they like, but its pretty much odds on it means more belt tightening.

      You’d have thought they’d be running out of twisty terminology by this point, but apparently not.

    62. Smallaxe says:

      Good Toon Chris, reminded me of T222 Deracha (Charade) who trolled here at the end of last month!

      PS. I have left a post on off topic for all who showed such
      kindness when I was hospitalised.

    63. Stoker says:

      K1 (9:02am) pretty much sums up my feelings at this moment in time. Nothing much more to add other than thanks to Chris for raising another smile in these extremely frustrating times. If we don’t get our independence after all that has gone on, and lots more to come i bet, then we need to go into permanent hibernation.

    64. galamcennalath says:

      starlaw says:

      “Council elections in May could be crucial, to set Scotland up for Indie 2”

      Little will change. Especially when the Unionist councillors work together. The STV voting system and multi seat constituencies make it very hard to sweep the board.

      Countries which use STV for everything have voters who understand the system, and how to make it work. Few here will get it.

      Typically there are three seat constituencies. The problem is, with more than three parties, if you put up more than one candidate, you with split your 1st and 2nd votes. You risk no seats. The way to work the system is to have all your voters put candidate A 1st, and candidate B 2nd. That way A will definitely get one of the three seats, B might get another if you are popular enough.

    65. Greannach says:

      According to the BBC, today is the first day of the summer holidays. So much for the past month.

    66. bobajock says:

      I sense a weakness in the dark side. A weakness in their message. A weakness that is failing.

      I sense a strength in the argument.

    67. galamcennalath says:

      scottieDog says:

      “I’m thinking there might be a kind of ‘vow2’ where ‘assurances’ are given to a ‘billigerent’ sturgeon.”

      Yes. Which I have no doubt why both sides are playing the charade of sounding accommodating in the pursuit of a middle option for Scotland. Playing for time before one side or other starts playing tough.

      When that breaks down, there will be an exciting new Vow offered by WM to eventually give Scotland all the cakes, and sweeties, and pop, we ever wanted …. if we let Brexit proceed and shut up. It will (as you say) be sold as a reasonable and fair counter to the pro Indy solution.

      That’s why initiatives like the BfS Poll (and WeeBlackBook) are useful. They will make a mockery of WM’s past promises so we have a sound case to simply reject all the same tired promises being made all over again!

    68. louis.b.argyll says:

      Many lib dems regret voting tory.
      The council elections will be interesting.

    69. msean says:

      I took the survey yesterday and had a bit of trouble ranking the vows. Most of them deserved to be ranked as worst. 🙂

    70. Nana says:

      Thanks Brian, good to know.

    71. Marie Clark says:

      Smallaxe, good to see you posting again. I’ve everything crossed for your lab results. You’ve got to keep hingin in, as we seem to be well on our road to independence.

    72. Luigi says:

      heedtracker says:

      23 July, 2016 at 11:51 am

      I hear you, HT, I hear you loud and clear. Sadly many don’t hear, many won’t hear because they don’t want to hear. The stubborn wee yoon monkeys with their eyes closed and their fingers in their ears.

      Stubborn belief systems are difficult to deal with. We just have to keep chipping away in the hope that one day the penny will drop.:)

    73. Mcboxheid says:

      All the eu nationals living in Scotland for the first Indyref were telt that the only way to guarantee remaining in the eu was to vote no. Folks were feart for their uni places/ jobs / residence permits etc so they voted no. Mo impotantly, are the Scots living in other eu countries/ rUK going to get a vote this time? I know it pissed of alot of folk last time that people from other countries got to vote and some scots didnae

    74. Grouse Beater says:

      We will make England great again – so stay with us, you useless, fathead, bare-arsed sweaties!”

    75. Clootie says:

      Charade – Labour MPs leadership challenge.

      The effort that has gone in from sequenced resignations to identical press statements on issues such as Brexit through to the latest ploy of 40 female MPs issuing a statement about living under abusers that Corbyn CONTROLS.

      Such a great pity that the same MPs cannot organise an effective opposition.

    76. Stoker says:

      Beware, they walk amongst us – No1:

      “My daughter and i went through the McDonald’s take-away window and i gave the girl a £5 note. Our total was £4.20, so i also handed her a twenty-pence piece.
      She said, “You gave me too much money.”
      I said, “Yes, i know, but this way you can just give me £1 back.”
      She sighed and went to get her manager who asked me to repeat my request. I did so, and he handed me back the 20-pence and said
      “We’re sorry but we can’t do that kind of thing.”
      The girl then proceeded to give me back 80-pence in change.
      True story!

    77. call me dave says:

      Been away to the sea side just back.

      I saw that number you gave but never phoned…yet! 🙂


      Prof J.Peterkin gives his view on the EU fiasco when asked on radio shortbread ‘GMS’ this morning.

      At 15mins 20secs in : Worth a listen for a four minutes. 🙂

      Other options:
      But goes on to Ask Prof bell (20mins)how an Independent Scotland looks within the EU (lots of hurdles interjected by the presenter and 5 years bad) … Oh and the oil! Good old auntie.

      More options from the Nordic countries…. free movement people.
      etc etc.

      Best option independent Scotland in the EU: The EU will be flexible.

      Followed on directly by hard borders (no way say Republicans and Unionists) in Ireland and mention of United Ireland and farm subsidies 87% of income for farmers in N. Ireland who will now pay?

    78. Stoker says:

      Beware, they walk amongst us – No2

      We had to have the garage door repaired. The Garador repairman told us that one of our problems was that we did not have a ‘large’ enough motor on the opener. I thought for a minute, and said that we had the largest one Garador made at that time, a half-horsepower. He shook his head and said, “Lady, you need a quarter-horsepower.” I responded that half was larger than quarter and he said, “NOOO, it’s not. Four is larger than two.”
      They haven’t used Garador repair since.
      True story!

    79. Stoker says:

      Beware, they walk amongst us – No3:

      I live in a semi-rural area. We recently had a new neighbour call the Highways Department to request the removal of the DEER CROSSING sign on our road. The reason: “Too many dear are being hit by cars out here! I don’t think this is a good place for them to be crossing anymore.”
      True story!

    80. Stoker says:

      Beware, they walk amongst us – No4:

      My daughter went to our local KFC establishment and ordered a Mexican Taco. She asked the person behind the counter for “minimum lettuce.” He said he was sorry, but they only had Iceberg lettuce.
      True story!

    81. call me dave says:

      Geez! If it’s not Sillars it’s Wilson in the Herald and then of course there’s this diversion tactic from Magnus Gardham:

      Would a “soft Brexit plus” deal for Scotland satisfy Nicola Sturgeon?

      PS: 🙂

      The butterfly effect: did Eric Joyce’s Glasgow kiss unleash a political whirlwind?

    82. Stoker says:

      Beware, they walk amongst us – No5:

      A guy was at the airport, checking in at the gate when the Irish airport employee asked, “Has anyone put anything in your baggage without your knowledge?” To which he replied, “If it was without my knowledge, how would i know?” The airport worker smiled knowingly and nodded, “That’s why we ask.”
      True story!

    83. Stoker says:

      Beware, they walk amongst us – No6:

      The stop light on the corner buzzes when it’s safe to cross the street. I was crossing with an intellectually challenged co-worker. She asked if i knew what the buzzer was for. I explained that it signals to blind people when the light is red. Appalled, she responded, “What on earth are blind people doing driving?!” She’s a Local County Council employee in Dartford.
      True story!

    84. Breeks says:


      I didn’t realise your comments in the previous about people wandering off topic and obscuring the theme of a thread with waffle that belonged in the OT section only applied to the rest of us, and not your good self.

      I’ll take it on board for future reference and do my level best to ignore every word.

    85. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Re-posting this from previous thread – relevant, and highly entertaining.

      From the days when QT was a Dimbleby-free zone and the Big Beasts clashed regularly.

      This is a quarter-century old pearler in which the arguments are so familiar it makes ye wonder how on earth we were fooled for so long.

      Alan Beith, Michael Heseltine, John Smith and Alex Salmond, in London, 1992. Hosted by Peter Sissons.

    86. Stoker says:

      Beware, they walk amongst us – No7:

      A man and wife arrived at their local Ford dealer to pick up their car and were told that the keys had been locked in it. They went to the service department and found a mechanic working feverishly to unlock the driver’s side door. As the wife watched from the passenger side, she instinctively tried the door handle and discovered that it was unlocked. “HEY,” she announced to the mechanic, “it’s open!” “I know,” he replied, “I already did that side.” This happened at a Ford dealership in St.Albans.
      True story!

      Have a great and safe weekend folks but whatever you do, stay alert because they walk among us and the scariest part is that they have the right to vote and reproduce.

    87. yesindyref2 says:

      The Empire has cast us all into a colossal cave, where we are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike. What they don’t realise is we programmed in a back-door, and instead of the magic word “xyzzy”, we made it simple, the word is “YES”.

    88. Clootie says:

      @Breeks 2:46…the first few were OK…but we have worse cases! 🙂

    89. yesindyref2 says:

      Beware, they walk amongst us – No8:
      You’re off-topic, and it’s OK for us, but not for you.
      True story!

    90. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ Stoker

      “…they walk among us and the scariest part is that they have the right to vote and reproduce.”

      Whit? They have they same human rights as you and I. Keep in mind that, for the most part, there is little that can be done about a person’s stupidity. Their ignorance, however, is entirely curable with a little bit of patience and undersanding.

    91. Auld Snody says:

      They walk among us.
      In London I went into a bank to change some Royal Bank of Scotland twenties into English notes. The cashier behind the counter said I am sorry we cannot accept Scottish notes. It was a branch of the Royal Bank of Scotland

    92. Vambomarbeleye says:

      Re McDonalds
      Some weeks ago I was recovered from the border to Dunbartonshire. Walked into McD to be told that the tills were closed. Said well but it through the drive in till. Couldn’t do that. You have to drive through. Explained that the recovery wagon was to big to fit through the drive way. Also said that the driver had to drive straight back to Carlisle. No flexibility no using a bit of common sense. So I am not surprised about the twenty pence coin.

    93. Stoker says:

      Breeks (2:46 pm)
      Yours and IanB’ posts (above) now just becoming visible to me.
      All i can say to you is – Bolt ya rocket! Have a good weekend!

    94. K1 says:

      Very astute yesIndyref2… 😉

    95. Smallaxe says:

      @ Marie Clark,
      Thanks Marie,i’m doing fine and staying positive and I will take Independence in out or sideways.Indie.ref2 should have one question and 2 answers 1.Do you want Scotland to be Independent, Aye or Yes!

      Gonny no dae that! A’m gonny burst ma stitches 🙂

    96. DerekM says:

      Nice one Chris though sometimes i wish Hamish would just twat that numpty 🙂

      I have to say i am astonished that the main talking about brexit and article 50 is if it is some kind of trade deal.

      Aricle 50 is the removal process of an EU membership from parliamentary status and in doing so removes all and any parliamentary privilages of the membership.

      There is no negotiations about the single market or about freedom of movement these are parliamentary privilages and if the UK thinks it can use Scotland,NI and Gib as a bargaining tool they are sadly mistaken.

      Get to the back of the EU queue UK or should i say England and Wales,well that is what you told us in 2014.

      You will do as the EU wants that is the limits of your negotiations or they will fling sterling to the wolves,though watch out for the EU possibly using sterling as leverage to end the UK and free us NI and Gib with a little deal that keeps sterling protected under the ERM.

      Only a fool would not grab that offer after allowing themselves to get into this stupid position in the first place,but then we are talking about westminster which has a majority of fools in it.

    97. yesindyref2 says:

      It is also of course a cartoon thread which means humour isn’t off-topic anyway!

    98. Greannach says:

      Sign in Potters Bar optician, “Eyes tested while-u-wait”.

    99. yesindyref2 says:

      Yup. Presumably at the appropriate time Sturgeon will point out the other benefits of EU membership, to show indeed, that it isn’t just a trade deal / freedom of movement.

    100. galamcennalath says:

      yesindyref2 says:

      “Presumably at the appropriate time Sturgeon will point out the other benefits of EU membership, to show indeed, that it isn’t just a trade deal / freedom of movement.”

      Yes. The EU offers protection of rights WM say they want to roll back. That, and other things, must be pushed.

      We gain absolutely bu99er all from Brexit! We would lose a lot.

    101. heedtracker says:

      Another day of red tory monstering poor old JC. It starts funny haha, the it gets less funny the more you see of it all.

      In reply to A-StrawBre
      Duncan Hothersall ?@dhothersall 23h23 hours ago
      .@_StrawBre @RoryWatson1 How exactly have I failed the party? Building Scotland’s biggest CLP? Winning in 2015 and 2016 against the tide?
      0 retweets 9 likes
      Reply Retweet

      Duncan Hothersall ?@dhothersall 23h23 hours ago
      Duncan Hothersall Retweeted david bush
      By building strong local teams and winning elections? My god I’m a monster.Duncan Hothersall added,
      david bush @Davidbush
      @dhothersall It’s people like you who damage the party . So why so smug?
      1 retweet 6 likes

      Other news, cant think why Most boring English game ever invented gets a lovely big boost from BBC vote NO Again Scotland, shock. Its probably not a coincidence that the BBC Britnats have realised that crickets not just spectacularly boring, but that its only ex English colonies that like it.

      Its a BetterTogether thing. Andy Murray’s ghosted by exact same BBC Scotland crew now UKOK boostering cricket.

    102. heedtracker says:

      Examples of Hootsman’s SNPbad stuff today-

      “Has anyone looked at the state of the Scottish economy, has anyone considered the state of our schooling? Has anyone read about what has been happening to our police force? I could go on with a longer list of the appalling state of modern Scotland – all of which is in whole or part the responsibility of the Scottish government – but should I expect our ruling SNP government to focus on its real job rather than the one it would like?”

      Examples of BBC Scotland’s SNPbad today-

      A think tank has called for a greater role for councils in Scottish policing in a bid to increase local accountability.
      Reform Scotland put together a briefing paper based on its response to a government consultation on strategies for the country’s police force.”

      Who are Reform Scotland, why do BBC think yoon councils should get control of the cops? Nice display of ghosted SNP debate though, debate between BBC gimps and yoon councils only.

    103. heedtracker says:

      BBC Scotland gimps left out

      Reform Scotland
      From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
      Reform Scotland, established in 2008, is an Edinburgh-based think tank, a sister organisation to the London-based right-wing, free market think tank Reform.

    104. heedtracker says:

      Why Pacfic Quay con artists think what Reform Scotland want is news? explained below. All Bettertogether, the whole shebang are totally unelectable but they’re red and blue tories in their Scotland region, and they own the BBC

      Key members of staff[edit]

      Geoff Mawdsley, Director (Scottish Conservative candidate for Stirling in the 2001 General election and was the party’s chief political adviser for 8 years).[6]
      Alison Payne (née Miller), research director (Scottish Conservative candidate for the 2007 City Council election in Edinburgh, former political adviser to Annabel Goldie).[7]
      Advisory Board[edit]
      Ben Thomson, Chairman
      Wendy Alexander, the former leader of the Scottish Labour Party
      Jim Mather, former Scottish National Party MSP and Scottish Government Minister for Enterprise, Energy and Tourism;
      Derek Brownlee, former Scottish Conservative finance spokesman;
      Jeremy Purvis, former Scottish Liberal Democrats economy and finance spokesman

    105. Proud Cybernat says:

      “…an Edinburgh-based think tank…”

      Ruth the Mooth – the only one I know from Edinburgh who likes to think tank (in her role as Nat slayer don’tcha know).

    106. Giving Goose says:

      Heedtracker re Reform Scotland – you can also throw in Siobhan Mathers; would-be and sometime wannabe LibDum MSP/MP, professional wannabe LibDum nobody and nobodies friend when a lass at Alness academy.

      A Tory if ever there was one!

    107. galamcennalath says:

      heedtracker says:

      ” a sister organisation to the London-based right-wing, free market think tank Reform.”

      So, in BBCspeak, a neutral Scotland focused source of independent opinion.

      And, in Wingspeak, another bunch of foreign sponsored subversives trying to undermine Scottish democracy.

    108. brian lucey says:

      Scotland and Ireland are not that different, economically speaking. If Ireland can survive and thrive…..

    109. Seeing that it is all getting a bit silly in our bought and paid for Unionist MSM, and the thread has become somewhat Saturday afternoon lightheaded:-

      Many years ago a friend cautioned his five year old not to eat sweets between meals.
      Sound advice? We’ve all uttered it.
      The child, genuinely perplexed, asked:- ‘When may I eat sweets then, dad?’
      Perhaps we should give five year olds the vote, and disenfranchise us adults.

    110. Grouse Beater says:

      Heedtracker: BBC Board: Jim Mather, former Scottish National Party.

      Ah, the token ‘ethnic’.

    111. Iain More says:

      Totally OT

      Today I was in my local PO when I happened to over hear a conversation mostly on way from a Daily Mail Buying settler as he lambasted immigrants for everything under the sun that was until the 14/15 year old laddie behind the counter pointed out to the Daily Heil reader and to the hilarity of myself and others that the said Daily Heil reader was an immigrant himself. IPPON!

      The Daily Heil buyer left the PO with steam coming out of his ears. I am now for giving 14 and 15 year olds the vote.

    112. heedtracker says:

      galamcennalath says:
      23 July, 2016 at 4:49 pm
      heedtracker says:

      And, in Wingspeak, another bunch of foreign sponsored subversives trying to undermine Scottish democracy.

      You might think that, but I couldn’t possibly etc. Fact is we voted NO 2014 to continue to be reined on by English tory’s. So on balance, massed ranks of red and blue tory britnats in Pacific Quay currently blasting this kind of sneaky creepy “news” as news, are working under the 2014 verdict.

      It is hard to create a more perfect Gordian knot, with Scots voting perpetually against planet toryboy in GE’s but then agreeing to toryboy rein in the 2014 referendum, having been monumentally lied to and terrorised by exact same tory BBC led media freak out that’s fighting to keep English blue tory control of their scotland region.

      Such is the power and the glory of the Scotch cringer. What’s just as WTF UKOK freaky, is watching red tory Scotland monstering JC, as we get to watch the exact same SLab crew bomb out of Scottish politics for good, hopefully:D

    113. Proud Cybernat says:

      Funny, isn’t it, the terminolgy used by BBC Pravada and the BritNat Colonial Media here in Scotland. It’s always the “EU” or the “European Union”. When did we stop being the “European Community”? For that is what Brexit will mean to us here in Scotland–leaving behind a COMMUNITY that has helped shape who we are today, and, of course, vice versa. Our friends live in this COMMUNITY and Brexit forces us to leave them behind.

      It is not just a “Union”. Europe is a COMMUNITY. And I, for one, do not wish to lose that community spirit. But I suppose the term “European Union” so used by the corrupt media is much more banal and perfunctory than “European Community”.

      Few like to leave a “community”. It is OUR “European Community”. Use the term. Use it often. People need to understand that it is not simply a Union but a community.

    114. brian lucey says:

      Proud Cybernat
      It stopped being the EC and became teh EU post Maastricht treaty.

    115. heedtracker says:

      Grouse Beater says:
      23 July, 2016 at 4:55 pm
      Heedtracker: BBC Board: Jim Mather, former Scottish National Party.

      Ah, the token ‘ethnic’.

      Funny, funny because its true.

      Politics does seem to be the world of WTF sometimes, like George Kerevan’s vote YES 2 for five years of cuts this week or Jim Sillars promising a day of reckoning revenge on big oil and big finance 2014.

      I love conspiracies and these guys, especially Sillars didn’t and don’t blurt out day of reckoning stuff like that and at the last moment for nothing. Look at how our pet torboy yoon Kevrage, hit the graphs of UKOK greatness when he scoped Kerevan peering into his crystal ball, and seeing doom, doom, we’re all doomed.

      But people be crazy. I am, but don’t vote for me:D

    116. galamcennalath says:

      heedtracker says:

      “Fact is we voted NO 2014 to continue to be reined on by English tory’s.”

      This is very true.

      The paradox is, though, that many of those who voted YES knew that this was the inevitable outcome. Tories win WM more often than not. And, when the blue ones don’t the Blairy Red ones do.

      And with equal paradox, many of those who voted NO didn’t see the connection between UKOK and Tory rule. They seemed to have listened to the Labour bigwigs chanting better together and somehow associated the Union with Labour. Add to this the gullible DevoMax believers and the Tory victory of 2014 was complete.

      I live in hope that gullibility can go into remission.

    117. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Stocker 1.45 Snap nearly tesco Airdrie £10.50 handed the guy £20.50 , ah blame they calculators,its certainly no Menthol arithmatic lol. (menthol clears the sinus)

    118. Macbeda says:

      @ Robert Peffers

      O/T but relevant to the site as a whole

      Wikipedia entry for Scotland includes this paragraph.

      “The Kingdom of Scotland emerged as an independent sovereign state in the Early Middle Ages and continued to exist until 1707”

      I don’t think this is wholly true but could it foster some of the misunderstanding going round about UK.

    119. Nana says:

      Father of EU divorce clause demands tough stance on British exit

    120. heedtracker says:

      galamcennalath says:
      23 July, 2016 at 5:40 pm
      heedtracker says:

      People that voted NO, that I know, divided their vote NO along several different lines, they didn’t want to be Scots, they wanted to keep being British, they didn’t want the risk, they believed every single UKOK whopper BetterTogether and the BBC told them, like Clyde ship builders, Prject Fear really got to them and they’re also impressively ignorant about stuff. Stuff like why oil poor Norway has a giant heavy industry, what and why? doesn’t matter, we’re fine.

      And then finally in slammed the Daily Record with their coup de grace The Vow devo-max, federal UK shyste, possibly the greatest act of gerrymandering ever dared by a shitty rag, Crash Gordon, Milliband, Clegg and the whole of the English establishment, Brenda included.

      We could do this all day but there is a massive change now in Scotland over last 22 months. Watch in awe as tory BBC led media airbrush all of the last 22 months out of our collective conscience, they hope.

    121. K1 says:

      Aye yesindyref2…ergo you’re ‘astute’ (as well as turning it on it’s head)…irony bypass from sensitive souls, this is indeed a ‘humour’ topic atl. 🙂

    122. One_Scot says:

      If Scotland does not win Independence, it will not be because we did not want it, it will be because they would not give us it.

    123. DerekM says:

      @ Nana

      Thanks for that great link Nana 🙂

      “I wrote Article 50, so I know it well,” Amato told a conference in Rome, saying he had inserted it specifically to prevent the British from complaining that there was no clear cut, official way for them to bail out of the Union.

      “Don’t give Britain the possibility of thinking that Brexit is a better way of doing what they have always done, grabbing what suits them (in the EU) and opting out of what they don’t like. Brexit is a total opting out. They know this very well.

      This is what the UK would not like you to know.

    124. HandandShrimp says:

      I see the Observer Opinium poll tomorrow has the SNP on 6% – that is a hefty poll number on a UK wide poll.

      It was a biggish sample at 2,200 so the sub-group sample should be a reasonable size. A comfortable 50% plus I would guess to go along with the record membership of 120,200 reported yesterday.

      The Yoons will be nervous 🙂

    125. volta3211 says:

      Uk Oh Dear!

    126. call me dave says:


      Good spot Nana. 🙂

    127. Here im says:

      If Scotland does not win Independence, it will not be because we did not want it, it will be because they would not give us it.

    128. DerekM says:

      @ HandandShrimp

      So let me get this right we are about 8.4% of the UK population and 6% say okay to the SNP, man thats nearly 50% on a yoon abacus,for those with some grey matter and not inflicted by YPPMD (yoon piss poor maths disease)its actually more lol

    129. mike cassidy says:

      Headtracker 4.07

      I referenced this last night on the bbc bias thread for a bit of Friday night fun – given the source and the author –

      but as one insight into the obsession with Corbyn it is genuinely interesting.

    130. Grouse Beater says:

      Corruption is corruption:

    131. Vambomarbeley says:

      RT news
      Talking about bretex.
      Scotland poor with oil running out. Not a good prospect for the EU.
      Reunification of Ireland not a problem with Ireland a good place for company’s to locate too.
      The more I see of so called news the more I realise that they are staffed by liars and idiots.

    132. Grouse Beater says:

      A new Scotland – some ideas on how do we deal with corporate corruption?:

    133. David says:

      @ mike cassidy,

      This to me was the most interesting quote from the article you linked to:

      “It could be a decade before the Tories lose a (UK) election, if then. The billionaires are all on the Tory side and likely to stay there.”

      Very relevant to people in Scotland, since only at most 20-25% vote Tory. The quickest/best/only way for the other 75 to 80% of Scots to get a centre-left or left-wing government is to vote for independence.

      Once we have Indy, then we can win over the right-leaning 20-25% by increasing their and everyone’s wealth – done by following sensible non-WM economic policies.

    134. Nana says:

      Not a long article but interesting

      Schaeuble says it is not up to the rest of the EU to cushion Brexit

    135. heedtracker says:

      mike cassidy says:
      23 July, 2016 at 6:39 pm
      Headtracker 4.07

      Hitch is good and he’s got charisma, not at WoS levels but its there.

      That whole thing from Hitch oozes toryboy power and glory wishful thinking. If old JC’s so shit at everything and anything, how come he’s getting the BBC mega monstering?

      It also feeds into red tory SLab. Sure that crew rage at us SNP for not being progressive, liberal lefties but look at the election stats? If I was SLabour and not insane, I’d go even leftier. Instead, we get red tory Kez and co slip sliding ever more right but losing even harder, year after year.

      The other side of the ongoing tory BBC monstering, is the complete JC bad silence from the Pacific Quay spivs and shysters. They’ve clearly been told to leave the ongoing BBC England destruction of Corbyn to the big boys, “keep boosting Kez and Ruth BBC Scotland, we’ll take out JC.”

      “Labour have also been cut off at the knees by the destruction of their party in Scotland, which was all their own fault, as they thought that devolution would defuse the Nationalists, when in fact it was the making of them. This loss, combined with a general weakening of Labour in the South of England, means Labour has little prospect of wining a majority ever again.”

      Planet toryboy wishes.

      It all says a great deal about UKOK democracy when the state broadcaster’s either considers itself a vital and important political powerhouse, or its overrun with toryboys just like Nic Robinson. Either way, all political powers make enemies that want to get shot of them, eventually.

    136. Gerry says:

      I don’t see anything to stop Scotland declaring UDI on the condition of a straight EU Vs UK referendum, if faced with the prospect of a Westminster refusal of an independence referendum.
      To be clear, I am not saying that this will happen, but rather that the possibility illustrates why WM will not refuse such a request. The further they allow Holyrood to go down that road, the less control they have. The veiled threat of it is enough.

    137. Mike d says:

      Agree heedtracker.liebour will never win a majority again down here in deepest little England. Not in my lifetime anyhow. And i was spot on with the Brexit vote as well.

    138. heedtracker says:

      Mike d says:
      23 July, 2016 at 7:51 pm
      Agree heedtracker.liebour will never win a majority again down here in deepest little England. Not in my lifetime anyhow.

      They probably never have. Although they did like Bomber Blair, Crash Gordon not so much. Deepest little England’s the target that the we hate JC red tory PLP is trying to win but its unlikely planet toryboy are ever going to give up that slice of UKOK electorate now. They shown how to get shot of one of the greatest ever toryboy PM’s ever! in the blink of an eye and the tory BBC led media aren’t ever going to be horrid to Thatcher2

      So that just leaves the English progressive liberal left doesn’t it Mike d? It looks like the SNP have got us in Scotland. Can JC wake up to that potential in England? Probably.

      Scotland’s red and blue tory BBC Scotland freak out shrieks, the SNP are only winning on evil and horrid nationalism. Well that may be partly true but Corbyn cant be totally blind to why red tory SLab have never stopped losing for over a decade in Scotland.

    139. Rock says:

      Iain More,

      “a conversation mostly on way from a Daily Mail Buying settler as he lambasted immigrants for everything under the sun”

      These type of settlers, led by the world famous JK Rowling, are a major obstacle to Scottish independence.

    140. Thepnr says:


      I don’t think that all of the 55% who voted No in the referendum will shrug their shoulders and say “Oh that’s it then, SG declares UDI that’ll be us finished then”.

      You can’t govern the people of a country without the support of the people. If those that support Independence are in the majority then why would you need to declare UDI?

      FFS If more than 50% of Scots support Independence then we don’t need UDI a simple democratic referendum will make us Independent.

      If any politician tried to declare UDI with less than 50% support, they are doomed and so too is any dream of Independence. You don’t need much brains to see that as FACT.

    141. Gerry says:

      Te 63% who voted to stay in the EU will not shrug their shoulders and walk away either, and neither should they. If you read my comment, I am not suggesting UDI will happen, but rather that it is the endgame position ultimately, and so the game won’t go that far.

    142. Thepnr says:

      The only possible way you could declare UDI is if the UK government refused you a referendum despite majority demand for one.

      If you want to declare UDI then make sure you have at least 60% of support of your country because even then a great many of the other 40% are unlikely to just accept it.

      We’re all Scots and will sort out our differences over a pint or a cup of tea, only persuasion will win not force. Any potential government that took the UDI route without the support of the majority in Scotland I would immediately oppose.

      We don’t need a government to tell us when we are Independent!

      We need ALL that live here to tell us when we are Independent!

    143. Joemcg says:

      Simon Heffer article in The Telegraph sorry don’t know how to archive it about Nicola/Brexit bordering on racism. Will definitely get the hackles up. Classic uppity jocks stuff. Grrrr…

    144. Just noticed the `Steel City` Sheffield has just signed up for a £1,000,000,000 investment from China,

      Sheffield`s citizens and its media see this as a good thing,

      and yet in Scotland,Nicola has a meeting about `future` investment from China and it is seen by our media as a massive negative,

      just a thought on the time after we get our Independence,

      what happens to those Scottish citizens that actively lied and worked against their own country,

      could we have a `Truth and Reconciliation Commission` like they have in South Africa after the abolition of apartheid,

      where perpetrators could give testimony of their lies and corruption and request amnesty from both civil and criminal prosecution,

    145. Nana says:

      @Joemcg here you go

      Simon Heffer is a bigoted blustering buffoon

    146. Calum McKay says:

      Scotland being given top seat at uk talks on be it is a trap.

      1. Fait a complis that we accept we have to leave

      2. Do yes us to status of Wales and Northern Ireland who wish to remain in uk above EU

      3. Sends wrong sgnal to potential EU friends

      The tories are pushing for Scotland to play this role, that alone should be sending shock waves through the Scottish government.

      Never ever trust a unionist bearing gifts!

    147. Gerry says:

      @PNR Yes, which is why the qualifier of a WM refusal of an independence referendum was included in my original comment.

    148. Tinto Chiel says:

      Why would anyone want UDI at the moment? It’s the last card to play when all else has been denied democratically.

      The FM must be seen to be dragged to the altar of Indyref2 when she has exhausted all avenues to remaining in the EU. UDI is what The Establishment wants: we throw away all our slow, legal advance towards freedom for a throw-the-toys-out-the-pram gesture which will weaponise all the extreme Nawbags à la September 19, only you ain’t seen nothing yet.

      NS says she is the FM for all of Scotland and she will wait until she sees the polls rise to a winnable position before she fires the gun.

      Even if we do it all by the book, I still doubt the good faith of WM. Look out for attempts to rig the vote (60% perhaps?) and other nasties. However, we have a powerful ally in the EU now and I am sure that we will feel that support once Brexit has been declared.

      I look forward to seeing their electoral observers on Indyref Day.

      Well said, Thepnr.

    149. Thepnr says:


      Yes we are in agreement there, there could be no UDI though in my opinion without a referendum despite UK denial and one that resulted in a majority for leaving the UK.

      I agree we can declare UDI but only with the support of the majority of the population of Scotland.

    150. velofello says:

      My fear/prediction is that May will seek a way to wriggle out of Brexit, certainly by firstly delaying and delaying Article 50. The USA will have input too.

      “Your leaving the EU, we’re not, so UDI”? The mandate of 62% to remain is surely adequate.

      Ah cricket. Best suited to be played in warm climates as there is much idly standing around by nine of the players in a team. At school I always had a permanent cold during the cricket season and couldn’t play. The sportscaster accepted this as I was a fairly useful footballer, and was able to avoid colds in the football season.

    151. galamcennalath says:

      Calum McKay says:

      “Scotland being given top seat at uk talks on be it is a trap.”

      Agreed. The SG should not agree to be part of the process of leaving the EU. There is a strong mandate to stay, the only issue is how is that achieved? Remain should mean Remain.

      NS has used language like ‘protect our interests’. Does that mean something potentially less than full EU membership? Or, is it just woolly speak so as not to dig in heels too early?

      WM were totally unprepared and have absolutely no plans. We do need to wait until we know what they are thinking and plan to do.

      In their dreams they no doubt want Scotland to fall in line and let WM do an exit deal for the whole UK. That most never be allowed.

    152. galamcennalath says:

      Cameron admits it was The Vow which swung IndyRef1.

      The Vow was so effective, he considered a repeat performance for EURef …

      “David Cameron made a late appeal to Germany’s Angela Merkel for limits on free movement of people if the UK voted Remain…The appeal by Mr Cameron to Mrs Merkel followed a discussion among senior Downing Street aides who said that the prime minister should reprise the success of “the Vow” in the Scottish independence referendum.

    153. liz g says:

      I think the Scottish Government has to be in on the talks,to make sure that Scotland and her resources are not used as a bargaining chip between our fishing industry was

    154. Joemcg says:

      Thanks Nana although I’m not reading it again I will throw this phone across the room! Press and journal live poll just now has 54% for the FM to call another vote NOW.

    155. TheItalianJob says:

      IB @ 2.51

      Great QT from 1992. Watched it in its entirety.

      Very interesting and what a difference Peter Sissons is as the presenter vs Dimbelby.

      Thanks for posting that.

    156. Cherry says:

      Last night I was doing a bit of searching for what the legal professionals opinion is regarding Sovereignty. When I came upon this piece from Adam Tomkins which you can find here.

      I liked this bit…

      “Tomkins welcomes the First Minister’s commitment to look at all the options, of which this presumably is one, while making the obvious point about Scotland’s very different situation, geographically and as one of the smaller units within the UK.”

      Someone said he teaches constitutional law…he really needs to go back and learn that Scotland is NOT A SMALL UNIT of the UK, but an EQUAL PARTNER of the UNITED KINGDOM of Great Britain.

      I’m so sick of this utter crap!

    157. One_Scot says:

      When you think about where we are in terms of Scotland becoming Independent, It is difficult to imagine that at some point in the future that the people of Scotland will suddenly think, you know what, being ruled by Westminster is actually the best thing for Scotland.

      So with that thought in mind, is it reasonable to assume that from this point onwards Scotland will always be on the brink of Independence for the rest of time.

      This being the case, there must be a point where the negative energy being used in preventing Scotland from becoming Independent becomes a wasted energy that could be put to better and more productive use.

      That said, as much as I believe the British State will be difficult to overcome, I believe it is only a matter of time.

    158. Croompenstein says:

      Visited Culloden today and it still hits you in the stomach. But would victory for the clans have meant we would be independent today ?

      I overheard a woman in the shop moaning about Spaniards in the queue and how Brexit will change things!! WTF are these people on..

      The character assassination of Corbyn goes on unabated they are off their heads, he is personally responsible for twitter zoomerati much like oor Alex was..

    159. ScottishPsyche says:

      What is the general feeling that people are getting with regard to people changing sides? My personal experience is of a number of quite vocal No to Yes based on the EU result. These are academics whose funding and ease of information exchange are dependant on being in the EU.

      However, I have seen social media reports of soft No swithering again and soft Yes changing their mind based on the economic argument. Also previously Yes but who do not want to be in the EU.So these groups have to be persuaded even though the magnification effect of social media has to be taken with a pinch of salt. I also have a couple of relatives who are scunnered by politics in general.

      The EU nationals and 16-18 year olds who were not allowed to vote in the EU ref, do we have any info on them and their possible voting intentions? Would that be worth a poll at some time?

      Also on constitutional matters, is there any other democratic way Indy could be achieved without a referendum? I am loathe to go the UDI route but their must be other ways based on a mandate. Another Holyrood election?

    160. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @TheItalianJob (9.42) –

      You are very welcome, and thanks for watching it.

      Maybe it’s just a cruel trick of time, but I can remember watching these things when they were originally broadcast, and now see myself, retrospectively, not giving a fuck what any of them were saying.

      There must be many of our family, friends and neighbours who view current debates in the same way I viewed that debate.

      How to get through to them?

      A massive turnout next Saturday may help some wake up.

      Earlier today I was helping an older relative shift some stuff for one of her friends. Turns out that the friend (who I’ve known for years) is going to the Glasgow rally. She’s in her mid-sixties. Until we discussed it this afternoon I had no idea she was even interested in politics at all.

      Here’s hoping all the chat about ‘relaunching’ the Yes movement becomes visible next week.

    161. Breeks says:

      Just to be clear, I don’t want a UDI, but I think the realistic prospect of having one is a very potent threat which could hopefully reign in the histrionics of the media: If you compromise the referendum debate like 2014, then we’re not going to waste everybody’s time with a forlorn and corrupt debate. We’ll just suspend the campaign, declare our Independence, and address the subsequent ramifications once we have replaced the corrupt media with an altogether more diligent broadcaster and can actually have a proper and thorough debate about the issues which matter to Scotland, not those which matter to the BBC.

      Furthermore, it seems a prudent fallback position to have the Scottish public conversant with a UDI so they know what it is, know it is credible option, and have time to get used to the idea. Events beyond our control, with Europe and the U.K. respectively, could move very quickly, and put the Scottish Government in the position of having to move quickly too. There simply may not be time for a referendum. If the public is unfamiliar with what a UDI actually is, there is a real prospect of it being seen as a panic measure come last resort.

      Which is less democratic? A sham referendum campaign steamrollered by a corrupt and manipulative media monopoly with a bogus result? We’ve all seen how that turns out. Or a UDI which recognises that democracy is being confounded by a meddling and manipulative media, and seizes control by UDI, followed fast by unfettered media discussion and debate, and then a constitutional plebiscite to ratify the UDI, and a written constitution?

      Perhaps there is even a third option. Just like Europe has mooted a “holding pen” arrangement to facilitate Scotland’s continued EU membership, then why couldn’t Scotland have a similar notion; an interim status, like a conditional UDI, which doesn’t become ratified until backed by public referendum? To me, that’s risky, because you’ll be up shit creek if ratification was not forthcoming. But hey, if we can all pretend that Brexit is going to end amicably with smiles all round, then what is wrong with a soft and cuddly UDI for the faint of heart?

      I repeat, I do not advocate UDI, it is fraught with problems and difficulties, however if the prospect is stressed as a credible option, then it greatly empowers Scotland’s hand in negotiations.

      By contrast, if we all rule out the possibility of UDI, then by doing so we gain nothing, but greatly empower Westminster’s hand, by essentially prostrating ourselves before the wisdom of our sovereign lords like dutiful British subjects, not a sovereign people trying to extricate it’s sovereign existence from the almighty fudge-up that Westminster has been getting away with for 300 years.

      I’ve provoked anger in some by my withering criticism of the SNP, and how Westminster will take them apart like schoolboys pulling the wings off a butterfly. Know why I said it? Because why is it we are knocking on the door of Independence for the second time in 2-3 years, but yet have no difinitive legal benchmark about where Scotland’s sovereignty explicitly lies? Why is our own Government being so cagey about how our Independence can be secured when to many, we stand rooted in our own prison with the door before us flung wide open? Just step into the light and you are free!

      If the narrative about Scotland’s popular sovereignty is so cast iron and robust, then why does it shadow the democratic campaign when it should be spearheading it? Please? Someone explain it to me.

      We know the Parliament of the U.K. Is a fudge, and that there a multiple irreconcile differences and incompatibilities with Scottish sovereignty and English sovereignty. So why, when the Act of Union lacks such practical competence, do these incompatibilities not lie at the heart of our campaign?

      When our government asks permission or sanction from Westminster to do ANYTHING, hold a referendum, set up a devolved parliament, it is us, the sovereign people of Scotland that it should be asking. Not Westminster.

      We are acting like mice asking the cat for our liberty, when we are already a cat of equal status and stature. Why the deference? We are not only a cat of equal status, we are a rampant red lion and not entirely happy about the deal we’ve been getting these past 300 years… So what is it with the “Please Sir, can we have some more independence?”

      I shake my head. I don’t get it. I want to get it, but the bits in my head just don’t join up.

    162. sinky says:

      How low can the uk right wing press go?

    163. heedtracker says:

      “Tomkins welcomes the First Minister’s commitment to look at all the options, of which this presumably is one, while making the obvious point about Scotland’s very different situation, geographically and as one of the smaller units within the UK.”

      Don’t underestimate how important Brexit really is for Scotland. As my Slovene girlfriend explains to rancid The Graun tonight. Prof T is a ferocious tory Britnat and he knows exactly why Brexit is the end of the UK as Britnats know it. Patience friends, patience.

      Erasmus scheme may exclude British students after Brexit
      23 Jul 2016 22:48
      1 Recommend In response to Ortho
      I understand how you feel, but at the same time, do remember that many millions of us voted to stay in. Sadly we were outvoted by those who are too stupid to understand your points.

      I am really totally fed up with such whinging. You made a COLLECTIVE decision (this is what a referendum is all about) and you better learn to live with the consequences.

      Nobody outside of the UK is even remotely interested in this. You demanded the referendum (over 50% of votes in the 2015 general elections went to the parties SUPPORTING this idiotic referendum), you decided about the rules of the referendum (which are totally against the international democratic standards in similar cases, but hey, your choice), you voted, and here is the result.

      The time to question the referendum procedures is BEFORE the voting and before the result is known. After the result is known, one can only question the validity of the voting procedures themselves.

      You just let your politicians lie to you big time over such an important issue. Democracy resides in active, critical, well-organised and well-informed people.

      Where were you all in the weeks, months and years in the run-up to the Brexit referendum?

      Why did you not ask the Venice Commission to evaluate the fairness of the referendum procedures BEFORE the referendum?

      Why did you not organise a people’s referendum campaign? You have had YEARS available to do it.

      Why did you not write a letter to the European Parliament, the European Council and the EU leaders explaining you concerns?

      Why did you not serially protest because you were lied to BEFORE the referendum result was known?

      By being so inactive and silent while this huge Brexit blunder unravelled, you abandoned you democratic responsibilities.

      Too late now. You better learn to live with your new reality.

      And may I suggest you stop whinging about 52% vs 48%, try to unite your nation and force your politicians to stop their petty in-fighting and start resolving this major national CRISIS.

      View discussion

    164. Sassenach says:

      An interesting, and inspiring, post. Yes there are many questions I also have as to why the constitutional situation is not being clarified.

    165. Sassenach says:

      Sorry, my post was in reference to Breeks at 10-30pm.

    166. Ken500 says:

      Without the SNP Scotland would not have a Referendum on Independence and will not have another one. It is the SNP who have increased the support for Independence and have show how Scotland could be a successful Independent country. They are governing Scotland more successfully in the face of adversity.

      Thank goodness for the SNP Gov, Nicola, Alex and Co, When they make a promise they stick to it and deliver in the best way they can unlike the rest of them. The ‘little red hens’ sniping at the edges but expecting all the benefits. They don’t want to join or get stuck in but they like to criticise. 50% of voters. A majority can’t go wrong.

      Social care, more NHS funding, no students fees but full loans, more apprenticeships, college places, bus passes for the elderly, no ‘bedroom tax’, £100Million benefit cuts mitigated, more nursery places, more women/people in work. Less child poverty. Investment in infrastructure, roads, railways etc and renewables.

      Unionist – Trident/illegal wars, causing migration into Europe. Public spending on grotesque projects the majority do not want wasting £Billions. Then claims there is no money for essential public services. Vulnerable people are being sanctioned and starved. Bombing the Middle East to bits for years, taking their resources and lying to the people. Reneging on promises of universal suffrage. Breaking International Law. Supporting absolute despot monarchies and apartheid States. Westminster corruption, lies and criminal behaviour. Child molesters, fraudsters and electoral fraud. Criminal behaviour hidden under the Official Secrets Act. Banking fraud and tax evasion. Lies to take the UK out of the EU against the majority wishes, against the public interest, 17Million out of 63Million.

      The worst Tory Gov there has ever been destroying the world economy. Cameron was the worst PM ever in Britain. The rest of the cabel is not any better. They committed electoral fraud for electoral gain so they could destroy the world economy. In order that they could embezzle public money and tax evade.

    167. louis.b.argyll says:

      Breeks, you ‘don’t get it’..? Yes you do..

      We, those of independent minds ,do flag up constitutional misnomers and the like.

      But we can’t shout the slogans from previous failed rebellions any more.

      We can’t be bogged down by simplifying democracy into ‘which side of the previous rules do you most agree with’.

      Look ahead only, to a brand new, thought through, future.

      Disregard drawn out legalities, written in stone which now crumbles.

      People here, like R.Peffers, and a great many across the land, have been arguing till they’re blue in the face, about ‘the truth’.

      We know what it is..and it doesn’t flatter the democratic system.

      We leave some untruths buried lest we never find our way back from such depths of deceit.

    168. heedtracker says:

      Rancid the Graun goes to defcon britnat and they mean viagra.

      Nukes are nice because

      “Then there are the jobs. Apart from the unknowable future, jobs were the most popular reason at Monday’s debate for building more submarines. Defence was one of the few industries “reliably and consistently creating sustainable, highly skilled and well-paid jobs outside London,” said the pro-Trident Labour MP Stephen Kinnock, and sadly this is true.”

    169. Ken500 says:

      The fishermen overfished the seas. They were throwing more dead fish back then they were catching for years. What industry does that? They have stopped it now after SNP Rep got involved, They are using larger conservation nets and the Quotas have been increased.

      The Norwegians never did it they thought it was disgusting. Any Gov would have had to use conservation to ensure the stocks. Last year a fishing family bought the most expensive house ever in Aberdeen. Worth £Millions.

      Many of the fishing (families) diverted into the Oil business to make more money. It was more lucrative, The Woods, the Craig’s etc. They are multimillionaires with world wide contracts. It is difficult to get youngsters into fishing because of the dangers and poor working conditions, although modern boats are changing, It is still very challenging. Especially when there are alternative jobs in the Oil sector and renewables etc.

    170. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Breeks (10.30) –

      You voice what many feel.

      The constitutional niceties will follow as and when enough of us get off our arses and demonstrate that we are, already, ‘independent’.

      But if we don’t honestly feel that we are already ‘free’ where it matters (i.e. emotionally/mentally) and act accordingly, we’ll remain where we are.

      No-one will ever give us ‘permission’ to be free of subjugation, and we shouldn’t expect a political party to do it for us.

      Next Saturday, Glasgow, will be a crucial test of how genuine our movement really is.

    171. Lee MacDonald says:


      I think many of us have experienced, since the eu ref, a number of nawbag acquaintances sheepishly admitting to now being yessers, thats all great, what I find interesting is that the most vociferous UKOKers I know are now not so vociferous & would prefer not to talk about anything to do with politics.

      I don’t believe anyone on social media who claim that they were Yes before but not Yes now, there really is only one route of travel & that’s to Glasgow next Saturday.

    172. Breastplate says:

      Well said Breeks,
      too many looking to see a way forward for Scotland without upsetting Westminster when there isn’t one
      Was it not the case that Westminster were eager to retain the power to shut down Holyrood for when the Jocks get uppity. I would say UDI in this scenario would be welcomed by many.

    173. tartanarse says:

      Macart at 10am.

      That post is precisely why(barring another rigfest)Scotland will vote Yes.(again).

    174. Effijy says:


      “A massive turnout next Saturday may help some wake up”.

      I have noticed comments like the one above, but never any real details about the Glasgow Rally.

      Is it a WoS meeting?
      Where exactly is it?
      What time of day does it start and when does it finish?
      Are there any guest speakers such as the Rev?

      If you want a good turn out, you need to keep posting this information, especially for infrequent visitors.

      Many Thanks!

    175. Vambomarbeleye says:

      As soon as the exit vote came in. I got my large SNP sign in the top windo with a yes sticker in the middle.
      It good to see all the tourists looking up at it. It is also visible to every train going between Kyle and Inverness.
      The flame still burns.

    176. yesindyref2 says:

      In 1997 74.6% of People in Scotland voted for Devolution, i.e our own Parliament, i.e. Holyrood. Latest social attitudes surveys showed between 5% and 10% who would like to abolish Holyrood, i.e. 90% or more support its existence in one form or another.

      If Westminster decided for some odd reason to abolish Holyrood I’d certainly support UDI, and I’d say many of that 90% would as well. But again the Independence would need to be verified, and the first act of Independent Scotland after a UDI would be to hold a Referendum on Independence.

      What would happen if THAT returned a NO I have absolutely no idea!

    177. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Effijy –

      Hope you can make it.

      You’ll see the WOS posse at some point, nae doots, but basic details here:

    178. K1 says:

      Effigy here is a tweet from PR including the route of the march too…

    179. yesindyref2 says:

      Ah so, the Sunday Herald: “The Sunday Herald view We want a cleaner, greener Scotland – not one in thrall to fossil fuels

      So, ummm, I guess that means the SH has finally come out for the Green Party?

    180. Effijy says:

      Thanks for the Links everyone.

      I will be there!

      I hope this helps many others who don’t use Twitter or Facebook.

      If we could get 10,000 people, the EBC might cover it and give credit for over 100 people turning up. lol

    181. Robert J. Sutherland says:


      I don’t see that your (tongue-in-cheek?) conclusion follows. The SNP may not be so “right-on” about green issues, but it’s not unfriendly to them either. (With one or two notable exceptions among posters here! =grin=)

      The main difference seems to be that the SNP are willing to continue to exploit fossil resources in order to smooth the transition to a non-fossil economy, whereas the Greens prefer to take the “hairshirt” route, cut fossil fuels out virtually overnight, and hang the economic consequences!

    182. Mungo says:

      What’s happening to this website ? Such a valuable resource and now lucky to get one article per day !

    183. Gary45% says:

      What’s the point of a Tick?
      Just dug one of the little bastards out, still can’t see the point of them, a bit like the Lib Dems, or any of the Yoons I suppose.(Oh aye they suck the blood out you)
      Indy Ref 2 It’s Coming.

    184. Gary45% says:

      Woo saa,
      The Rev has to get the ying and yang on the mellow.
      Long campaign coming.
      Woo saa

    185. bjsalba says:

      So Reform Scotland think a centralized force was a mistake.
      They want more local control.

      Now where in the world has a system that is like that?

      Ah yes, the good ol’ US of A where you elect your local police chief, and racism and corruption are rife.

      No thank you.

    186. Tam Jardine says:

      Breeks 10.30pm

      I enjoy your posts but I think you may be over-complicating this business. It is natural and understandable – we are all going stir-crazy waiting for progress after the great leap forward for the national movement.

      Christ- I posted a piece the other night on anomalies in Regional Trade Statistics. I finished it in the early hours of the night then got up the next morning to do mundane works stuff. Man, I work in a shop!

      What seems clear to me is that while we discuss tactics the SNP high command is keeping its own council and we only know what they want us to know. I am struggling to see anything wrong with their tactics so far – you will not see anyone talk of anything like UDI- for your average punter that is so far from reality it is almost surreal. I think they are just coming round to the idea of another referendum (a massive leap for many).

      I am sure all Holyrood would have to do would be pass a simple motion repealing the act of union and that would be all that was required and there is no question that any larger grandiose gesture is needed. The people, however need the indyref win to move on otherwise the anti-Scotland element will be like a festering wound amongst us forever.

      Appointing her council of experts (and some jolly respected names in their midst) was a masterstroke as was coming out of the blocks so quick with the FM’s statement the morning after. The letter to EU residents also (and it was not simply a tactically excellent move but it was also the right, the decent thing to do).

      Nicola has been immense, as has Angus Robertson down the road. Alex is performing his role perfectly- he has the freedom to say what Nicola can’t and float ideas that can be taken up or not. I take on board you have issues with the SNP…. I don’t really have anything to say about it except I think the addition of those extra 50 MPs is huge. We never had them before ’14.

      I watch Joanna Cherry, Mhairi Black, Tommy Shepherd, Brendan O’Hara, Chris Law, Diedre Brock and many more and they blow me away that finally we have intelligent people in Westminster representing us.

      What happens next is unknowable.

      Will Nicola appear to soften slightly in order to draw the tories into pushing the button?

      Will the divisions in the cabinet over brexit remain cracks or develop into yawning chasms?

      What will the leave brigade do when it sinks in article 50 could be delayed endlessly?

      It is all very cagey and all this brinkmanship is boring- what may bring things to a head is serious economic damage which should bring Nicola Sturgeon to say enough is enough and start really kicking arse.

      Anyway- Breeks enjoy your weekend and keep the faith

    187. bjsalba says:

      Many say that because the EU sells more to the UK than the UK sells to the EU, they will make a deal to retain those sales.

      I wonder what percentage of what the UK sells to the EU is Scottish and what percentage of what the EU sells to the UK actually comes to Scotland.

      I should imagine that those figures are very hard to find.

    188. Breeks says:

      @ Indyref2 12:01

      That’s why I suggest any referendum to ratify our status shouldn’t be a referendum, (one question), but a plebiscite with multi options. It seems an ideal stage in proceedings to gauge public opinion on constitutional issues and ratify independence by indirect default.

      I am still not advocating UDI, but nor am I party faithful to the SNP. When you folks see the SNP keeping mum or holding their cards very close to their chest, all I see is jaded by my own local experience of a dysfuntional SNP wholly uncooperative, perplexed by simple questions and wearing silence like a shield. It is sullen and unwelcoming to new members, a fact related to me quite randomly and to my surprise. Have faith in that??? Oh dear. We may have a problem Houston.

      I do recognise the emerging star quality of some SNP faces, and I do have faith in Nicola, though I worry about the caliber and backbone of the council she keeps. But the big wide brushstrokes which says eveything is fine just doesn’t help.

      The very last thing I would ever want to do is jeapordise our Independence, but blind faith does not empower us if our elected SNP is not as switched on and cunning as many seem to accept on face value. Westminster is the opposite; it looks like a parade of dimwits, troughers and lunacy, but there is something exceedingly shrewd and darkly manipulative at its core. It understands power and guards it like Smaug guards his gold.

      It’s not that I am hostile to the SNP, to coin the expression, there’s a good party in there trying to get out, but it has a lot of work to do on that particular exercise and lose some of the dead weight it carries.

      What all of that means is that I can only judge a particular issue on the merits as I see them. Right now, we don’t seem to be playing to our strengths; first with our compelling legal arguments lying idle in the library, but second, YES was a grassroots campaign. Green shoots require regular nourishment and exposure to sunlight. Kept in the dark for too long and you risk growth being irratic, anaemic and spindley.
      And third, I kinda see the BBC as a bellwether which will mark when the phoney war is over and indicate we are ready for Westminster after putting their champion propagandists to the pen.

    189. Nana says:

      brexit mess

      ‘Mission Impossible’ – Tight Brexit timeline unsettles Germans


      Diplomats working on deal to give Theresa May greater concessions than those won by David Cameron

      What else are they doing behind our backs?

    190. Nana says:



      David Cameron and his cronies could be set for £350,000 taypayer funded payoff

    191. Bill says:


      Check out my link

      Brexit may push the German banks over the edge.

    192. galamcennalath says:

      Nana says:

      Certainly agree with the first 8. Very well summarised.

      “10 reasons Scots are talking about independence again”

      Lists like this, and the Business for Scotland ranked lies poll, have the basis of a leaflet to go through every door …”What has changed, and why we now need independence”.

    193. Bill says:

      Loyalists were incandescent with rage over Nominated Person yet this is ok:

      Why aren’t they outraged at Westminster?

      Let the gloat fest begin!

    194. Bill says:

      Jakey can GTF

      I’ve burnt all her books and hope a plane load of dirty needles falls on her house.

      9. JK Rowling

      The Harry Potter author was an enthusiastic Better Together backer and took part in many online debates – and a few outright battles – with Yes supporters. Since Brexit, she’s suggested that everything has now changed and that independence might just be the best option for Scotland.

      Scotland will seek independence now. Cameron’s legacy will be breaking up two unions. Neither needed to happen.
      — J.K. Rowling (@jk_rowling) June 24, 2016

    195. Tam Jardine says:


      OK- I took a little time to put forward some brief reasons as to why I am confident with the SNP’s approach. If you choose to then dismiss my approach as “blind faith” that is up to you.

    196. Bill says:


      In fairness to Breeks I too found local SNP types in Kirkcaldy not very knowledgable on key subjects during #indyref which left voters perplexed when they asked questions.

      Yes, there was always going to be an element of faith that we can do this. That is the case now, we may end up with a Scottish Pound which I’d prefer as it’d create certaintity before #indyref2 and prevent Loyalists sneering “what’s the currency going to be?”.

    197. Ken500 says:

      Cameron the worst PM in history and his cronies have wasted £Billions in public money, Yet claim their is no money for essential public services. The Tories/Unionsts are funded by the bankers and associates so they can tax evade. They donate money to the Party so they can tax evade. That is why they wanted out of the EU. The EU is clamping down on tax evasion within the member States.

      Trident – Tory/Unionists politicians/Party getting backhanders from the US to defraud UK taxpayers. A total waste of public money. Breaking International Law, bombing other countries and taking their resources. Oil. The Tories committed electoral fraud to ruin the world economy. Cameron lied about his income in the HoC. Left out his £Millions of property assets. Cameron is a tax evaded multimillionaire. He bought an Oxford 1st class degree with tax evaded money and ruined the world economy.

      HS2 wasting £Billions – Cameron and his cronies are getting their cut. Banks etc

      Hinkley Power Station will be years over time and budget. Wasting £Billions. The Tory/Unionists will be getting their cut. Banks/Corps etc. Wasting £Billions of public money. Unionists politicians all over the UK have their hands in the till, with grotesque projects the majority do not want against the public wishes. Then claiming there is it enough for essential public services services. Sanctioning and starving the vulnerable. Selling off RBS and taking the Royal Mail pension fund (£30 Billion) made the Tory politicians and their associate £Billions and put it on the National debt. Most of them should be in jail.

    198. Ghillie says:

      Tam Jardine @12.58

      Excellent comments and very much how I interpret the actions of some of the best political minds at work that I have seen in my lifetime.

      Not ‘blind faith’ but trust that has been earned.

      Bill @ 8.41am I am not fond of the behaviour of JK Rowling myself but have to call you out on unacceptable comment you made.

    199. Nana says:

      Re the 10 reasons list for independence archived at 8am I remembered a gov list of ‘how great we are’ prior to indy so went looking for it. Think this is it

    200. Golfnut says:

      @ Tam Jardine.

      I agree, Scotland is not a colony, nor was it absorbed into greater England. As a partner, the only partner, in the Treaty of Union with England and as such has equal rights in the dissolution of the Union.

      I doubt that anyone could deny that the terms of that treaty have been breached on countless occasions and a mandated SG and Scots parliament will dissolve the union, legally.

    201. Grouse Beater says:

      Your Sunday reading:

      Deadly serious, no jokes:
      Supposed to be funny, few jokes:

      Bill: “She’s suggests everything has changed; independence might be the best option.”

      The operative word is ‘might’. Will JK offer a new example to her followers, and explain a nation’s liberty should be sacrosanct?

      Does she care?:

    202. Famous15 says:


      Thse posts are read by lurkers looking to destroy Scotland. Do not provide ammunition by intemperate or even loony language. You know who you are and I do not need to prick your memory.

    203. Breeks says:

      You misunderstand me Tam, you have faith. That is different from the blind faith I refer to; shutting my eyes to the shortcomings I know to be there and pretending everything is hunky dory.

      If brazen corruption and nepotism in a poxy little Council can inexplicably flummox the SNP, then I rather suspect Westminster will chew them up and spit them out.

      But hey, it’s politically incorrect to say so, so I’ll just shut my gob get ready to applaud the arseholes who destroyed my business as the heroes who rescued my country, and be glad that my shutting the fuck up made such a noble contribution to the cause.

    204. cearc says:

      Nana, 9.31,

      The standout comment for me that list was, ‘ And thanks to our global reputation the UK is the second largest defence exporter in the world after the US.’

      It sums up british foreign policy. Oooh, look there’s a country where we could start another war, whoops, I meant investment opportunity.

      Apart from the grammatical error of starting a sentence with a conjunction, of course!

    205. Famous15 says:

      Breeks and Tam.

      Your discussion reveals real problems. Can you get together and write an article on this. Personally I skipped going to SNP branch meetings because I felt down. That was wrong as we need to strive for the best even with very local issues. Good healthy discussion is naver out of place in a democracy.

    206. Edward says:

      So we have the blairite Labour making up stories to attack Corbyn with.

      We had the ‘Angela Eagle brick through her window’ story, except her constituency windows are intact and it was a stairwell window in the office block, which is shared by other offices, so could have been an attempted break in or vandalism.

      Next up we have the so called break in to an MP’s office, except it was broken into and as of a month ago was not her office, as she resigned, she lost the use of the iffice and was in the process of moving out.

      Don’t rely on the media any time soon for providing the facts

    207. Tam Jardine says:


      No- you misunderstand me. I have not once told you to shut the fuck up about your issues with the SNP. What you are actually doing is closing down discussion by suggesting I am blindly following like a zealot (and thus discrediting my views) at the same time as suggesting you are being silenced when you are not.

      I can’t discuss circumstances I know nothing about. You have free reign to air your views on here and I object to the very thing you accuse me of- swatting me aside as deluded

    208. aranciaca says:

      Interesting discussion – even with Gordon Brewer asking the questions

    209. call me dave says:

      OH! Fiery cross stuff from Kevin McKenna in the Guardian.
      The SNP must get a grip and get it sorted Nicola, rapid.

      She’s twiddling while home burns!

      He’s obviously on the skinny gruel diet while I’m on full cream porridge.

      I’ll post link when I’m Back in my but & ben

      Persisting down in central Fife. 🙁

    210. Thepnr says:

      I think it’s becoming obvious that there will be no Brexit, I mean at least of the type Farage, Gove and Johnson were advocating.

      What we’ll get is Brexit light or a mini Brexit where trade and free movement of people remain pretty much as they are now.

      This might look like a problem for those that support Independence but there are of course other issues siuch as human rights and employment law. This is where the battle between Westminster and Scotland will be fought.

      As I see things right now the SG are doing everything right, I expect them to continue to do so no matter how things progress.

      Get prepared for the next referendum for it is surely coming.

    211. Nana says:

      cearc the global standing they spoke of has been crushed under the brexit steamroller

      and [haha] Apparently Cameron is writing his memoirs, a homage to piggery pokery lies and criminality. Perhaps we could provide him with a title?

    212. Bob Mack says:

      Ultimately England will depend on Scotlands resources in any Brexit discussions.
      No doubt our fishing grounds ,oil and gas and strategic position will all be bartered for a better deal for England. They will not welcome Scotland being involved in Brexit talks for that very reason.

      Scotlands fishermen had better think again if they even thought Brexit would bring exclusivity of fishing rights. Farmers had better start looking down their sofas for loose change ,because there is no doubt subsidies will be slashed to the bone.

      England will have no qualms whatsoever about putting Scotland on the block to ensure their own trade and survival.

      We better act before those talks get too far advanced

    213. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Nana @ 11.04pm

      Nana, you asked for suggestions for a title for Cameron’s memoirs. I think, since he stole every other idea or notion he ever had, he should “borrow” the title of a book which the late Willie Rushton wrote some 40 to 50 years ago.

      The title, as my failing memory recalls was something like: “Pig Sticking – A Joy For Life”.

    214. Betty Boop says:


      Apologies if someone else has mentioned this; afraid I haven’t had time to read the comments and in a rush as usual 🙂

      This is flagging a wee bit, if you will pardon the pun!

    215. The schemes, plotting, intrigues, conspiracies of the Labour party,

      Corbynites and the Blairites are two cheeks of the same arse,

      John McDonnell forcing back the tears, as usual, hamming it up good style on Unionist Marr show,

      Blairite woman has her sanctuary invaded by Corbynite,

      Corbynite accuses Blairite woman of personal attack on widow and her children.

    216. Andrew McLean says:

      Edward 10.05

      Didn’t know that about eagle,s window, wish I heard that yesterday, was at friends and got the usual anti SNP rant, but gave it back turbo charged, conservative mate giving me his revival speech, the no veto smear, GERS, all blow away by the power of Wings!
      Airdrie 2:05 yesterday freelander in front stops at light, me late for taxi, oh ffs I said, then spied wings sticker on back window, suddenly my opinion of the driver changed, excellent safe driving to be commended! 🙂

    217. alba says:

      Hmm Im not surprised the Yes2 flags are flagging. For £100 I can get 6 Yes flags, ten car stickers, a 10K Flags badge, and “a special donor certificate delivered to your door”.

      Haud me back!

      2 years ago £120 got me 120 flags. Damn sure I wont be fastening any of these new ones onto bridges/walls/monuments etc.

    218. heedtracker says:

      Farmers had better start looking down their sofas for loose change ,because there is no doubt subsidies will be slashed to the bone. cant guarantee Welsh farming EU dosh. They voted Leave but still want their free money.

      Lovely BBC Wales puffery for Owen. BBC really loves Owen.

      More BBC Wales Corbyn bad stuff, he’ll break up Lab in Wales because

      “Labour’s lost Scotland, it’s down to one MP up there, England is a different set of circumstances, but I do think these times are very serious indeed,” he said.

      Labour’s lost Scotland’s more than enough to be getting on with in BBC vote Owen Smith Wales. Still, its sad to see they’re just as creepy as BBC vote Kez Dugdale/Ruthie Babes Davidson Scotland.

    219. Macart says:

      Just clocked the lead story in the SH and dang, but they do love to have at least one SNP bad line in there. Yeah, apparently the SNP are delaying somehow over Brexit.

      Y’know I get it, sometimes there is a danger of putting heroes on pedestals, giving them super powers they don’t actually have (sarc). It needs to be remembered that above all else the SNP are a party of GOVERNMENT and bound by the rules and remit of government. The difference between them and other political parties, as far as I can determine, is that they serve. Its not a party before people credo. Its not power for powers sake or systemic career before service that we see in Labour or the Conservatives.

      Every statement I’ve heard them issue on the subject of Scotland’s sovereignty has been to reaffirm the sovereignty of the people, that the parliament and government of Scotland exist to serve the will of the Scottish electorate, whatever that may be, or wherever it may take them.

      The frustrating lack of knowledge and process we face in many isn’t all that surprising. Look at what has been missing from basic historical education for decades, the blanket orthodox narrative media coverage. The information has always been there, but quite deliberately never taught or referred to. Look over here, not over there. That’s a helluva mountain to climb on its own.

      I don’t expect a party of government to serve independence on a plate for Scotland’s electorate. That is NOT their job. It’s not for them to grant. As a government, as our public servants, their job of delivery starts when WE tell them its what WE want. When it comes to expectations? I only expect one thing above all else from the SNP government. That they hold the gate open for the Scottish electorate and leave the decision in our hands. If they can do that, then act on our wishes that’ll be heroic service enough for me.

      Right now they have done everything required of them by remit and by law. The Scottish electorate expressed and delivered a mandate on the EU. As our government and party to the treaty of union they have served notice to the UK parliament of the Scottish electorates wish as a partner. They have set up a commission and advisory board to explore methods and routes to retain partnership of both unions. They have set about drawing up legislation for a new referendum bill in event no such route is possible and they have sought the council of relevant parties in the EU and UK governments as required by office.

      Now, near as I understand it, until such times as Article 50 is triggered the Scottish government can take no further action on any conclusions reached by their advisers. Why? Because until Article 50 is triggered we have NOT been taken out of the EU against our wishes. All the preparatory work the Scottish government can and are required to do, they have done.

      As the SNP however, they can initiate the new summer campaign for independence and the various non affiliated YES groups can start getting the band back together. There is a delay right enough, but its not one the Scottish Government has any control over. At this point there’s only ONE place to look for folk desperately and deliberately playing for time and its not Holyrood.

    220. yesindyref2 says:

      The SNP now has 120,000 members yet last election there were complaints not enough were engaged and helping with leaflets. Well, I’ve attended 2 or 3 meetings at most, and the agenda is about as interesting as watching dust gather on 50 year old legal documents. At mine there isn’t one single entry for “Open discussion”, nor does Indy appear on the agenda. All you get is one or two old guard members waffling for 10 minutes on their pet project, the colour of something or other.

      Instead it has welcome and apologies, previous minutes, local councillor’s report (hello, I can read it in the wee paper), office bearer reports, organiser’s report, events and fundraising, resolutions for conference (none of which seem that interesting), update on a local community project (see wee paper), AOCB (presumably the “C” stands for constituency), and then the big, hugely exciting, slavering thing of the night, the raffle.

      I’d prefer to watch two snails having a race up a wall.

    221. Ken500 says:

      A taxi in Glasgow had ‘no thanks’ stickers on the window. The driver was advised there would be no tip. Claimed they were put there by the night shift driver. Laugh or cry?

      Five months delay on the new Forth road bridge? What’s five months after waiting 30 years.

    222. Thepnr says:


      2 years ago 10,000 quid got 10,000 Yes flags onto the streets in Scotland. We all saw them.

      This time the target is 15,000 quid. Costs must have gone up!

      Seriously though if you can do better get your fundraiser started.

    223. Effijy says:

      I’m in the process of e-mailing a No Voter who won’t visit this site.

      Can anyone add some other useful reason to make him swap to Yes?

      1, Vow to deliver Scottish Home Rule, as close to a Federal State as you can get!
      *LIE Not Delivered.

      2, The Only way for Scotland to remain in the EU is a No Vote
      *No Vote delivered and now against a 62% Vote to Remain, Scotland is to be Brexited by those who promised Remain. LIE.

      3, Pensions sake in the UK, and threat that there would be no pensions in an Independent Scotland.
      *LIE. Pensions where guaranteed in the event of Independence and now pensions are being attacked by Westminster.

      4, £3 Billion investment for on-going development of Renewable Fuels in Scotland only guaranteed by a No Vote.
      * LIE. All investment removed by Westminster after No Vote

      5, 13 New Ships promised for the Clyde Shipyards, id a No Vote Delivered.
      * LIE. Initially cut to 8, and now cut to ZERO Ships.

      6, 3,000 HMRC Jobs only safe with a No Vote.
      *LIE, All 3,000 jobs transferred to Croydon, England, with Boris quoting that a £1 is better spent in England than Scotland.

      7, £1 Billion In vestment in a Carbon Capture Facility in Peterhead, if No vote delivered.
      * LIE. Zero Investment now given for this project.

      8, No Transplant Lists or Blood Transfusion Services would
      be available in an Independent Scotland.( Gordon Brown).
      *LIE, These Service are guaranteed as they have absolutely no connection with politics of any kind.

      9,New High Speed Rail Links between London and Scotland promised.
      *LIE. New High Speed Rail Link to London to Stop in Northern England but partially paid for by Scotland.

      10. Scottish Parliament to be guaranteed for perpetuity in the Statute Books, if a No vote is delivered.
      *LIE. Never been discussed or established.

      11. Only way for Banks and or Financial Institutions to
      keep HQs in Scotland.
      * LIE. All parties now looking to relocate outside of a the UK due to the Brexit Vote.

      12. English Tourists would stop visiting Scotland due to having a breakaway referendum.
      *LIE. Record numbers visited Scotland before and after!

      13, Scotland to put Labour government into Westminster, so the despair of never having voted for a Tory, but continually getting one, would be over.
      *LIE. Labour Lost, Labour are Tory, Labour Liars, Labour Dead, Labour awaiting to be buried.

      14, Westminster to negotiate some minimal new powers to Scotland and adjust current Budgets.
      *TRUE. They did this but they made a concerted and prolonged effort to Con Scotland out of £7 Billion.

      15. Threat that Scotland could not use the UK Pound if Independent?
      *LIE. Former B of E Governor admits that we could, and no one could stop us.

    224. Andrew McLean says:

      No delay on bridge still on target to finish as per contract, only in SNP bad world can a contact not finishing ahead of schedule be twisted into blow for Sturgeon.

    225. heedtracker says:

      Alba46 says:
      24 July, 2016 at 12:21 pm
      For those that voted to leave the EU, food for thought from the SAGA magazine

      So just like that, planet toryboy’s cost everyone a lot just to get away from them for a couple of weeks.

      . In July 2015, travellers were receiving 1.41 euros to the pound, this has fallen to 1.17 euros at the time of writing, so buying E100 now costs around £14 more. Your holiday spending money won’t go so far in America either – buying US$100 now costs £12 more than it did this time a year ago. What will happen over the coming months and years, predications vary, so it’s a case of waiting to see.

      As for the price of a holiday itself, again, until negotiations start between the UK and the EU, everyone is in the dark about whether costs will increase.

    226. Thepnr says:


      Great post as usual, I think we expect no less from you.

      Great posts on this thread also from Tam Jardine and Breeks.

      We on Wings actually have debate and it’s great to see.

    227. call me dave says:

      SNP accuses Westminster of 12 betrayals of Scotland in last 12 months

      K. McKenna 🙁

    228. Stoker says:

      Smallaxe (@ 3:25 pm)
      Glad to have helped put a smile on your face and good to see that you’re, hopefully, on the mend.

      yesindyref2 (@ 3:06 pm)
      Funny chunt!
      You must be one of those ‘alert readers’, eh!

      Proud Cybernat (@ 3:10 pm)
      Indeed, very much so! Noted, absorbed and agreed!

      ronnie anderson (@ 5:43 pm), Auld Snody (@ 3:11pm) and
      Greannach (@ 3:38 pm)
      🙂 🙂 🙂

      Essential contribution to the ‘UDI’ discussion:
      UDI is the answer

      Important info alert:

    229. Tinto Chiel says:

      Nana @ 11.04:

      Cameron’s memoirs..”a homage to piggery pokery”.


    230. Orri says:

      Some things that might need cleaning up.


      Holyrood have every right to hold a referendum on any subject. What they don’t officially have is the right to implement the result. The only way UDI would fly is after a referendum and the refusal of Westminster to then agree to its outcome should that be for independence.

      The obvious tactics to be used by the unionists should there be a chance of losing would be an attempt to organise mass abstention, ban the BBC and other media from covering it and in extremis physically preventing the ballot taking place. The abstention tactic might be combined with a stuffing of the voters roll with bogus entries in order to play down the level of support for independence.

      In short the only way I see UDI being declared is after Westminster refuses to acknowledge an independence result.


      The post Article 50 negotiations don’t have to take two years. All that is certain is that if nothing is agreed by then the (r)UK will be out on its ear with no ties to the EU at all. If, on the other hand, an agreement can be reached in advance then talks end early as does the membership.


      The UK is not part of ERM2 so doesn’t benefit from any so called protection.

    231. Just a wee bit music for a wet Sunday,

      seen Davy Holt in Aviemore recently,

      well worth a listen.

    232. Nana says:

      @Socrates 11.17am Thanks for the memories, strayed off down wiki way to read Willie’s page. I remember him mostly for his dead pan look and dry wit.

    233. Nana says:

      @Tinto Chiel

      Finger must have slipped, should of course have been jiggery but you knew that Yeah?

      How do I get one of those tongue in cheek smiley thingies?

    234. Thepnr says:


      That UDI article by the Rev is a stonker, thanks for reminding me of it.

    235. yesindyref2 says:


      Yes, UDI is indeed the best thing going since Kosovo. The key thing though is “democracy, and a 55% NO vote being the last vote on it. If the SNP had a mad spasm and went for UDI, I’d join the Unionists in the marches and demonstrations against it – majority rule.

      In 1991 Slovenia held a referendum on Independence, and 88.5% of all electors (94.8% of those participating) voted in favour of independence. But the Yugoslavs sent in tanks, and there was a 10 day war before the Yugoslave army withdrew and Indy was recognised. That’s the only case where violence is a neccessary last resort, to force the will of the People on anyone who gets in its way.

    236. Macbeda says:

      A foretaste of the post Brexit era

      Oh joy.

    237. Ken500 says:

      Aye. A couple of hours a month is too much for some ‘wee red hens’ to take from their ‘busy’ schedules. They would rather pontificate like stuffed up peacocks on some websites. Trying to do the opposition’s work for them. They certainly do not understand the electoral rules, but they like all the benefits.

    238. alba says:

      Fundraiser star? I didnt buy a box last year to raise funds; I bought one distribute in much the same way “Scottish not British” stickers were; those not ‘displayed’ were donated to a couple of Yes groups.

      My growl isnt that the price has went from 10k – 15k, but the unit cost has went from £1 to £10 (or £25 if you also want an exclusive admiral badge). At that price theyre not for display; theyre for sticking away in your loft an investment/heirloom for the grandkids.

    239. crazycat says:

      @ yesindyref2

      The C in AOCB stands for “competent” – ie something the meeting has the power to discuss/implement. (= “not off topic”, I suppose)

    240. yesindyref2 says:

      Thanks! Meetings I was at that lasted about 5 minutes tops. Ah well.

    241. RogueCoder says:

      Alba says
      Hmm Im not surprised the Yes2 flags are flagging. For £100 I can get 6 Yes flags, ten car stickers, a 10K Flags badge, and “a special donor certificate delivered to your door”.

      Haud me back!

      2 years ago £120 got me 120 flags. Damn sure I wont be fastening any of these new ones onto bridges/walls/monuments etc.

      Hi Alba,

      This was explained in the fundraiser text. The model this time is not you “buying” the flags, you get a few as donation perks, and the bulk of the flags are distributed free to Yes groups across the country. The Yes groups can then decide whether to give them away or to sell them at a modest sum to help fund their own activities. This “virtuous circle” means that we benefit the whole pro-indy movement.

      But if you want to get hold of a few hundred flags, all you have to do is register with the National Yes Registry. It’s their distribution list – vetted by pro-indy folks – which we will be using to distribute the 10,000 flags to when they arrive in October.

      As to why the target is £15,000 this time, there are a number of reasons;

      1. The first 1,000 flags are on express production and are being air-freighted to Scotland next week. Because the number is relatively “low”, and the expensive air freight, these flags are rather expensive (about £2.20 each). We did it this way because we need to get EU-saltires onto the streets as quickly as possible to show our support for the EU which we’re being dragged out of (but we recognise that not every Yesser does support the EU, so the quantity is split between EU-saltires and Yes-saltires). The other reason for doing this was to get your perks out to you as quickly as possible. Last time there were complaints because folks didn’t understand that the bulk flags were being sent by sea which takes 6-8 weeks ON TOP OF the crowdfunding period 🙂

      Some other reasons why the target is higher;

      2. The unit costs from the manufacturer have gone up. Ink and material costs have risen, so we have to pay a bit more.
      3. The original 10K Flags fundraiser made no allowance for actually posting the flags out to people. This is going to cost about £1,200.
      4. As a pro-indy non-profit, we have to be squeaky clean on our taxes. So we’re paying the import duty and VAT on the flags. There’s also a strong moral dimension to this; we can hardly criticise rich Tories for dodging their taxes if we’re trying to get out of paying them ourselves 🙂
      5. The crowdfunder is also paying for several thousand car window stickers, some of which go out as perks, and the remainder go to the Yes groups along with the flags.
      6. If, by a small miracle, there is any money left at the end of this, we’ll also buy a shed-load of bamboo canes to distribute with the flags so that folk have an inexpensive and lightweight “flag pole” to wave them around with 🙂

      So there we go. I hope that explains why we’ve asked for a bit more this year.


      Lindsay Bruce
      ayeMail founder (and flag fundraiser)

    242. RogueCoder says:

      Sorry, I forgot to also mention:

      7. PayPal have increased their fees since Indyref 1.0 (ask Stu, he’s equally unhappy about that!)
      8. Brexit caused the value of the pound to plummet against the US dollar, so we need more pounds just to get the same value in dollars as before. (All Chinese manufacturers use the US dollar as it’s a stable currency and widely used in many countries – it’s the go-to currency for all international trade).

    243. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Breeks @ 07:39, 24.Jul.2016:

      That’s why I suggest any referendum to ratify our status shouldn’t be a referendum, (one question), but a plebiscite with multi options.

      Ah, the old “Peoples’ Front of Judaea” gambit. Duh. NO!

      When will you diversionists learn? Every option offered gives more niggle room for pointless unproductive argument about stuff that has nothing to do with the (hopefully) desired result. It just gives dedicated yoons more cracks into which to ram their crowbars. For them, the more FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) the better.

      Learn something from the EUref, pleeease. Keep it simple. Keep it focussed.

      One goal, one message: a sovereign nation again.

    244. Betty Boop says:

      @ RogueCoder, 11.34pm

      Thanks for that; saved me trying to explain at least some of it 🙂

    245. Breeks says:

      @Robert J Sutherland 12:54

      That comment was in the context of a reluctant UDI requiring to be ratified after the event and not being left hostage to fortune by a declined ratification. Please forgive me. I obviously didn’t keep it simple enough for some folks to keep up.

      Since you are unimpressed by using the threat of a UDI being used as a check against the media screwing up the independence narrative like it did in the first referendum, perhaps you would be good enough to proffer your own suggestion for handling the deluge of propaganda?

      No, didn’t think so. Keep it simple, head in the sand, just like 2014…

      And by the way, the EU ref was Westminster’s idea, and I’m not entirely sure they’d agree keeping it simple was their wisest council.

    246. alba says:


    247. Betty Boop says:

      @ Alba, 5.06pm


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