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They are not like us

Posted on June 22, 2014 by

This is from today’s Scottish Sun. (Click to enlarge.)

murdo25

Murdo Fraser actually thinks that houses getting 25% more expensive while wages grow by just 0.7% is a GOOD thing. He really believes that “It’ll cost an extra £23,000 to buy a house if you vote No” is a plus point for staying in the UK.

That’s all we’ve got on that one, folks.

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    1. 22 06 14 09:16

      They are not like us | Scottish Independence News

    161 to “They are not like us”

    1. Taranaich says:

      I’m amazed this wasn’t in the Daily Mail.

      … Is this also in the Daily Mail?

    2. squarego says:

      It might appeal to a certain type of person, we’ve all met them. This fits with what I’m hearing day after day.

      “im voting Yes because it’ll be good for the country/ the kids / the poor / the unemployed / the rest of the UK / the world.”

      “I’m voting No because it’ll be good for me / my pension / my house value / me me me…”

    3. Peter Serman says:

      What a load of rubbish! Who says people would wan or need to buy a new house? Independence will see a boom in the affordable, social housing sector, something that has been missing for years forcing people to either privately rent or stay with parents. If building ourselves out of debt was good enough for Britain after the WW2 to clear debts accrued then it will surely be good enough for a debt free Scotland and provide Councils with a much needed income to improve their own regions.

    4. Bob Sinclair says:

      The Daily Mail headline is much more likely to be ‘Cybernats Suppress Housing Market’

    5. Kyle Mackay says:

      Oh no, not more affordable house prices, how will we cope?

      Next he’ll saying we won’t get the chance to pay tuition fees or prescription charges or to look after their nuclear weapons if we leave dear old UK.

    6. Such imbecility almost makes you wish for the good old days with Scottish Tories like Nicholas Fairbairn: Mad as a box of frogs, but at least there was some intellect there.

    7. Red Squirrel says:

      Vote No so your kids won’t be able to buy a house? Along with Labour’s benefits cuts for young folk a No vote definitely looks like a No future.

    8. Robert Tyler says:

      Please vote YES.
      Best regards,
      From many, many thousands in Wales who can’t for the life of them afford a home in their own communities.

    9. caz-m says:

      This is all based on everything staying exactly as it is at this moment in time.

      Better Together have absolutely NO vision for a future Scotland.

      We need more homes built, more private and social housing.

      This would take the heat out of the market and keep house prices at an affordable price for the average family.

    10. Derek M says:

      way to kiss osborne`s ponzy scheme butt Murdo you halfwit dont you people learn anything you are doing exactly the same thing as those labour idiots creating a housing bubble which is going to go pop and make 2008 look like an economic blip but then all your rich buddies are going to make billions out of it on the backs of the ordinary punter arnt they you thieving reprobates.
      Vote yes Scotland and get rid of these idiots once and for all and save your children’s future.

    11. Cookie says:

      And the Bank of England monetary policycommittee has as good as admitted that interest rates will rise before end 2014. Presumably we may expect their first meet after 18 sept to raise the rate regardless of whether vote is yes/no.
      They are just holding off announcing it for 90 days to let BT be able to scaremonger of higher interest rate in Indy Scotland.
      So if we stay in UK cost of houses go up and cost of mortgage rates go up. A right union double whammy. Like to see BT sell that one to the majority who see a house as being an affordable home to live in rather than as a speculative investment vehicle.

    12. Themadmurph says:

      I’m no expert, but I’d have thought it might be more like this –
      Scotland votes yes, Scotland looks to attract jobs and people. This creates more demand on the housing stock, prices go up. Unless of course we build more houses, but then demand for land goes up, and prices for land goes up. Ergo, house prices go up.

      As I say, I’m no expert, but we all know better together types tell lies. That being the case, I would suggest whatever they are saying, the opposite is true. Qed my theory is right.

    13. Tam Jardine says:

      There’s a guy with his finger on the pulse – he can just sniff the zeitgeist. At the moment a couple working full time with parental money to put down a decent deposit can just about get on the property ladder. We struggled to renew our mortgage last year despite being a safe bet. He might as well be commenting from a different planet.

      For an article to really get the blood flowing this Sunday morning, check out Iain Macwhirter’s awesome conclusion in today’s Sunday Herald. I canny sign in to copy it – maybe someone else could oblige. “Scotland is hitched to a runaway train with UKIP stoking the border….”

    14. Jeannie says:

      O/T Well, gave it a try but can’t listen to another second of the manic, machine-gun delivery of the drivel that is coming out of my radio. Goodbye Crossfire. Yet another BBC failure. Bring back Ken MacDonald for god’s sake!

    15. Themadmurph says:

      Just an addendum to my theory. We could have land reform, which taxes huge estates. They want to sell their land. This floods the market. Land is cheap. Houses are built to meet the demand, but the prices don’t rocket because demand and supply balance.

    16. Gillie says:

      More affordable housing in an independent Scotland.

      Now that is something worth voting for.

    17. Muscleguy says:

      As a homeowner, got on the ladder back when houses were affordable, I don’t care about any further increase in the value of it. It is already worth probably 30% more than when we bought it in ’99. I’m not greedy and I have offspring struggling to afford rents and it’s them I’m far more worried about along with lots of other young people.

      What sort of society are we building with disaffected young people locked out of housing, locked out of jobs, paid low wages on zero hours contracts, demonised by the worshippers of bankers as feckless?

      I’m seeing and hearing programs claiming that the young are becoming ever more individualistic and right wing/libertarian and is it any wonder when society demonises them and takes away support while pulling up ladders available to previous generations? They are being told by the media and by politicians that they cannot rely on society. I just hope we can change iScotland enough to turn this around before it’s too late. You can bet nothing will be done if we vote no.

    18. Grendel says:

      It appeals to the ‘I’m alright union jacks ‘. Not to me though.

    19. gedguy says:

      They are possibly correct in their fears of house prices not rising as much as they would under the UK. Could this be due to the Scottish government making plans to build more council houses therefore there would be less of a strain on the private housing sector ergo the prices stay lower. Stop building homes for people close to the bottom and that will force them onto the market and force up prices.

    20. Jeannie says:

      There’s no point in making Edinburgh houses even more unaffordable than they are at present and no point in making the same mistakes with the property market that London has made in the past and continues to make now – it just makes inequality and the negative effects of inequality worse, which in turn, affects all of us.

      We will need substantially more civil service posts in an independent Scotland – let’s make sure they are spread throughout the country. That way the effect of additional employment causing rising house prices is diluted rather than concentrated in one area and investment in roads and transport access is made a priority.

    21. caz-m says:

      BBC Radio Scotland “Crossfire”, for a start, John Beattie has got to be the biggest bore and biggest pain in the arse who is employed at Pacific Quay.

      Then the guy for the YES side has just admitted that he is,

      “a huge fan of Alistair Darling”.

      I am sticking with it for the sake of it being the first show, but it sounds very much like their “Scotland 2014” TV programme, so I think this will be the last week I listen to Crossfire.

    22. Martin says:

      Vote no, vote for unaffordable housing, vote for growing inequality, vote for a government so controlled by the crooked bankers they’ll go to any means to protect them from the EU and their “dangerous” new commissioner elect who wants to improve the lives of the poor. Vote no.

    23. Murray McCallum says:

      Rapidly escalating house prices are a real problem. Talk about volatile assets. Even the minority that think they personally benefit must surely wonder what happens to their kids.

      I hope an independent Scotland does not fall for the concept of the place where you live being the most important financial investment you make in your lifetime. We don’t want our country’s economic performance being largely determined by how we feel about the market value of our house.

    24. Grouse Beater says:

      Just another blatant appeal to greed.

    25. chossy says:

      He is correct in as far as the figure is cumulative and it is the current figure anyway. Around 6% each year. So by 2018 I imagine house prices in Scotland will have gone up 25% if they maintain their current momentum. Regardless of indpependece people will not be buying at that rate and it will stifle. A week or two ago a chap from nationwide has said that buyers will naturally level the market as they refuse to buy at the higher price therefore stopping more growth until wages rise to meet costs then there will be more movent in the market.

    26. Krackerman says:

      Relax the whole financial system is nearing collapse anyway – if we are still in the UK when it goes then we go with it along with vapid clowns like this Murdo moron… If we get free and dump the pound quickly then we’ve got a chance of surviving…

      Though that alone breeds additional problems but only of the “needing a large wall” type…

    27. Schrodinger's cat says:

      Themadmurph says:

      demand for land goes up, and prices for land goes up. Ergo, house prices go up

      except the land reform bill will limit land ownership, causing a glut on the market, egro land value will fall

      “Andy Whiteman’s initial thoughts on the report are here, and he concludes:

      Hopefully, this report will serve to shift the baseline – to move the agenda forward and to deliver a consensus that these recommendations provide the minimum necessary to re-frame and modernise Scotland’s stystem of land governance to one which is people-centred and in which the land of Scotland serves the common good of all of its citizens. The report does not cover a range of important topics but if all of its recommendations were to be implemented over the coming 5 years, we would be living in a country with a far more democratic and equitable distribution of land and power.”
      http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/scotland-blog/2014/may/23/scottish-government-land-reform-review-limits-private-land-ownership

      im no expert but if andy wightman supports this, then that is good enough for me

    28. Schrodinger's cat says:

      Themadmurph says:
      22 June, 2014 at 9:23 amJust an addendum to my theory. We could have land reform, which taxes huge estates. They want to sell their land. This floods the market. Land is cheap. Houses are built to meet the demand, but the prices don’t rocket because demand and supply balance.

      bugger, you beat me to it

    29. Cindie says:

      I live in the West Highlands and there are far here more deer than people. A number of folk that I have spoken to are voting no because they are worried that Independence will put the tourists off from visiting. The economy is badly unbalanced (though less than it was before the Scottish Parliament came into being). There is nowhere for young people to live, houses are very expensive and often non-exsistant in some villages. There are far too few good, decently paid, long term jobs. That’s why I’m voting yes, because only in an Independent country will we see land reform, significant, affordable social house building and inward investment.

      If we vote no then the Highlands will continue to be a playground for people who the likes of Murdo Fraser admires and wants to be friend with. Millions of acres of land owned and often badly managed by people who don’t even live here. The Highlands is empty, we need houses that people can afford.

    30. HandandShrimp says:

      Vote for runaway house prices because that worked so damn well for the economy last time…..

      …Have I awoken in an alternative reality where the 2008 housing bubble collapse never happened?

      If you have a house and sell it for more you will need more to buy somewhere else so you are no better off. If you are starting out then houses simply become completely unaffordable…sowing the seeds of a future collapse as no one can sell on a first time buyer’s house.

      Houses and earnings are joined at the hip. Sharks that pretend otherwise are the same sharks that crippled the economy.

    31. Gillie says:

      The whole basis to tourism in Scotland is that Scotland the brand is sold overseas as an independent country.

    32. Grouse Beater says:

      Cindie said: I live in the West Highlands

      Excellent remarks – sad so many can’t see the mountains for the deer. I’ve no idea how to change their mind for the better other than to say, what happens when visitor numbers fall away as they surely will year to year.

      Do they take up basket weaving, or ask the factor for a month’s delay to pay their rent?

    33. Gillie says:

      The UK economy is heading towards another housing boom/crash. Negative equity and a another banking crisis looms large.

    34. ronnie anderson says:

      SoS Rev O/T moment.

      Andrew Marr Bbc 1 Is he trying to tell us something by having

      Nicola Benadettie closeing the programme, playing

      Auld Lang Syne.

      Aye Fair Thee Weil Westminster.

    35. CameronB Brodie says:

      Murdo Fraser
      I don’t think Paul Cheshire would agree. You might want to ask hum, so as not to embarrass yourself.

      http://www.lse.ac.uk/geographyandenvironment/whoswho/profiles/pcheshire [at] lseacuk [dot] aspx

    36. Cindie says:

      @Gillie, that’s true, but a majority of tourists in the Highlands are English. The perception amongst a number of people, who are employed in the tourist industry in one way or another is that these visitors will be put off by a Yes vote, especially as the MSM are insisting that Independence is supposedly anti-English.

      As an Independent country we would be able to put far more resources into supporting businesses and promoting Scotland as well as investing in roads and infastructure. I also don’t believe that people will be put off to any great extent. But that doesn’t mean that people aren’t worried. Events in England can make a huge difference in visitor numbers, the Olympics for example meant a significant drop in visitors here.

    37. Jim Thomson says:

      O/T – #RSCrossfire abomination.

      Ok, I need help with this.

      Let’s assume that the audience figures for week 1 are reasonably close to those of RSHeadlines.
      Let’s further assume that in coming weeks (following today’s debacle) the audience figures plummet.

      Is the programme editor on some form of performance bonus scheme, and will they be rewarded for:
      a) maintaining or increasing audience share;
      or,
      b) making sure that there’s even less material available to promote the Yes cause?

      I can’t see the budget allocation committee being at all happy with plummeting audience share, unless that is the intention.

    38. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      So, we have it now, the Tory No slogan

      Greed is good.

    39. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Jim Thomson

      They are closing the debate down

    40. CameronB Brodie says:

      Have we just crashed the LSE server? 🙂

    41. HandandShrimp says:

      Listened to Crossfire. It was I thought OK. It was civilised and the Yes speaker Andrew Wilson was upbeat. John Beattie was OK too. Pam Duncan Glancy was very much Labour Better Together and ran through a number of their mantras about wanting to end poverty in Manchester and the like. She didn’t have a great command of numbers though and didn’t seem to understand the significance of spending the running costs of Government in Scotland and told an absolute whopper/didn’t know what she was talking about when she said 1 in 5 jobs are UK Public Sector. This is, of course, nonsense. Just over 20% is all Public Sector employment in Scotland including Scottish Government and Local Government. UK Public Sector employment in Scotland is well under 1% and many of those jobs DWP, Tax Office, Passport Office, Customs and Excise etc. will still be required. A Job Centre worker in Inverness is not going to be moved to Milton Keynes.

    42. DocFin says:

      Ah, a Savills report. Your one-stop estate agent. Just off to check for a single-end with a view of the gasworks.

    43. Cindie says:

      @Grouse Beater I so agree. Things are changing, the roads are better than they were a few years ago, there is more investment, renewables, community trusts, social enterprise and investment in training in locally need skills. But tourists do bring a lot of money and there are a significant proportion of people who are employed in tourist businesses or who own such businesses and do not want to see visitor numbers affected. That doesn’t mean that everyone who works in tourism is anti-independence, but it is a reason that so many are.

      The land reform bill is an excellent start, it offers hope that things will continue to change for the better.

    44. Adrian B says:

      The value of selling one house at a 25% increase is offset by spending that extra 25% on your replacement home.

      The housing bubble in London is created by an existing shortage and many foreign buyers buying property to rent out, thus raising rental prices. Its a model that has long been known to be unsustainable and it benefits those with cash to spend.

      Houses are homes, places that people eat and sleep with their families. Reducing the argument to one where those can afford to exploit others is undesirable for the wider good of working people across a widening populous of income earners means that there is less money available to spend in their communities.

      The last thing that we need in Scotland is soaring house values as it requires to be financed by those who have the ability to pay for it.

      We have the chance to go for a different model that encourages property regeneration to get unused housing stock back into regular use while building affordable housing in areas across Scotland to benefit the local communities by creating work while we grow our industrial base in new technologies as well as existing areas of expertise.

    45. Martin says:

      House prices. The only people who actually want house prices to go up are the already wealthy with a “property portfolio” looking to use homes as profit making tools. For most people houses are places to live, not commodities to trade.

      This, dear reader, is what separates us from them.

    46. Stew says:

      Bloody hell thats a quick turn around. Just last week average house prices rose an average 9%, that was 18% in London, 4% in Scotland (only 2% in NI so our Inipendence seems to be hittingTHEM worse??), and their panicing about the housing bubble and how to stop it. The obvious route is to raise interest rates which will affect the less well off ( most of us nowdays) and force droves of people to sell, forcing prices down.
      Sounds strange that Scots prices are now, somehow, going to jump from 4% to 25% after a no vote.
      Maybe after a yes vote when all the rUK refugees come flooding in….

    47. CameronB Brodie says:

      I think high-speed digital communication would help improve prospects on the islands, as well as improved transport links. I’m not sure how they are getting on with those.

      I don’t see the problem as being “how to attract more visitors”, rather “how do we generate indigenous growth and development. Tourism is transient and seasonal, and not something I would base an economy on, important though it is.

      I’m sure there are ways an means, we just need the correct policy frameworks and funding. We’ll never get them staying in the union, dominated by London.

    48. heedtracker says:

      Estate agents make a quick buck and maybe your house goes up in value and all to stick with Westminster power that protects teamGB super rich elites, starts catastrophic war, giant debt, slave wages, generational mass unemployment. Its a toughee.

    49. TheItalianJob says:

      @BtP

      Hey I like your new photo. Suits you well.

    50. themadmurph says:

      @Schrodinger’s cat

      I tried to read Andy’s book, but it was a bit legalese and dry and I’m afraid I gave up on it. However, I’m sure he knows much more about land reform than I do.

      I want independence because it is an opportunity, and there is a will, for change for the better!

    51. Cindie says:

      @Adrian B completely agree. Many of the houses in small villages like the one I live in are holiday homes. There are two types of these. Locally owned ones, which are rented out, bring an income into the community, and help support a family, people who live work and take part in the community.

      There are also houses who are owned by people who do not live here and rarely visit, they are empty for most of the year. Rental property is scarce and whilst a small number of affordable homes have been built recently, thanks to housing trusts and support from the Scottish Government there are a number of issues that prevent more building, included in which is the issue with who owns the land that is needed for building.

    52. Malc says:

      HandandShrimp, have to say I thought it was pretty dire. The BT person just regurgitating NO propaganda was dire and the YES guy being intelligent and giving credit to various points could not cover her crassness.
      For me the programme was dire , a poor shadow of Headlines and destined for the bin. I for one will not rush to hear it again and have already told BBC that.

    53. Nana Smith says:

      O/T

      This makes my blood boil even more than usual. At this rate I’ll be cooked by dinner time….

      http://www.sundaypost.com/news-views/scotland/independence-referendum/uk-government-accused-of-funding-no-campaign-1.435240

    54. Robert Louis says:

      Cindie,

      That’s sad what you report from people in the toruism indistry in the highlands. The very notion that the average person in England will sit and huff and puff, and say ‘I’m NEVER visiting Scotland because they have become independent’, is to my ears pretty childish stuff. Sure there will be some nutters who might react in a daft way, but I honestly don’t think that most English folk will do the same.

      Ireland is independent, people from England visit it, likewise with say, the Netherlands, Germany, France, Spain and so in, in fact many, many English folks have holiday homes in those independent countries. The very idea that English people will boycott coming to Scotland just because we voted for independence is just daft. It’s sad that people fall for such rubbish.

      Sorry to go O/T so early, but I must ask, given recent events, is Mike Dailly of the anti independence campaign ‘losing the plot’? It’s a serious question.

      After playing the role as Scotland’s very own ‘witchfinder general’ with his little list of indy supporters earlier in the week, Mike Dailly seems to have been at it again;

      http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/9354-no-campaign-backer-launches-foul-mouthed-attack-on-salmond

      Seriously offensive stuff from Mike Dailly of the Govan law centre.

      Seems to me, that the anti independence campaign is going off the rails. All we need to do is keep our heads, keep plugging away person by person with our POSITIVE message, and we will win.

    55. seanair says:

      Taranaich/Bob Sinclair
      You can’t out guess the Mail for its headlines.
      In a week when it was revealed that 61% of people in Scotland were satisfied with the Scottish NHS (a huge increase), today’s headlines are “patients are at risk as NHS is hit by crime epidemic”.

    56. macart763m says:

      Yeah, they really, really aren’t like us are they?

      FFS people struggling to get a roof over their head. A desperate need for affordable social housing and this (cough) Tory reckons making the average house £23K more expensive to buy is a good thing.

      Somebody stick a fork in what constitutes Tory priorities, they’re done.

    57. galamcennalath says:

      The headline about rising prices sounds more like another disadvantage to voting No! The reasoned comments above show that most people here can’t see much positive about it.

      Yet, it was clearly intended to sway voters to No. Shows how out of touch MSM is with most Scots’ thinking.

      Those individuals (and it is those with a me me mindset) who perceive it as a good thing, are probably hard line Tories and confirmed No voters anyway.

    58. Brian Mchugh says:

      I wrote a post there and pressed send and it just vanished. 🙁

    59. Kestral says:

      House prices make no difference if your selling one house to buy another (although stamp duty may factor more with higher house prices)

      They make a huge difference if your rich enough to own multiple houses as an investment

      They also make a huge difference if your trying to get on the property ladder for the first time

      So low house prices benefit 90% of the population

    60. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

      @Bugger (the Panda) says:
      Jim Thomson
      They are closing the debate down

      One very powerful way for the YES movement to hit back is to move heaven and earth to get news of the (2nd) demo at the BBC in Glasgow on 29th June to as many people in Scotland as possible (both before and after the event).

      http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/9298-second-bias-protest-earmarked-for-bbc-scotland-hq

      It’s getting a bit late now, but every YES activist putting YES newspapers or other YES material through letterboxes this month should have been including a leaflet inviting people to the demo on the 29th June in Glasgow (and pointing people to the usual good website sources: Wings, Newsnet, Bella, BfS, WGD, Bateman etc.).

      Simply letting people know that this sorts of demo is happening works much better than saying to them “the BBC are biased”.

      On the doorstep yesterday one lady, who started out as an undecided, ended as a definite YES, after I told her that there had already been one demo at the BBC, and another was happening on 29th June.

      I gave her a copy of this flyer: http://i.imgur.com/wKx2UHp.png , and pointed out to her the quote from the STV website about Wings now being the go-to place for information on what was happening in the IndyRef debate, thus giving her an “approved” (by STV) source for what she isn’t getting via the BBC.

    61. Alasdair Stirling says:

      I have always thought that Murdo was a prime candidate for an IndyRef version of Spitting Image’s ‘The President’s Brain is Missing”

    62. Kestral says:

      Anyone seen the scottish sun today

      AS death threats, police investigation

      http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/

    63. Cindie says:

      @Robert Louis, thank you! That’s what I think. Frankly if visitors were that petty and childish I’d rather they didn’t visit. But it is the concern that comes up time and again in conversations about Independence. I will keep trying though.

    64. John devine says:

      When you buy a new car you can be quite certain that in five years time its resale value will be half what you paid initially. It’s logical…. wear and tear shortens its life… Thus reducing what it’s worth to the next owner
      But turn to buying a house and all logic flies right oot the windy. If you buy a new house… live in it for five years you can sell it for double what you paid… It makes no sense… until you work out that during those five years the value of the bricks and mortar didn’t go up… what went up was the crazy market value of that Wee bit hill and
      glen your house is sitting on. Vote Yes…

    65. caz-m says:

      Malc

      I have to agree with your comments regarding Crossfire.

      It made me cringe all the way through it. It was worse than dire, and John Beattie, how did he ever get into broadcasting. Then you have the creepy, deep voice of news reader Nina Spence, what a horrible voice for radio news reader.

      I think we can safely say that BBC Scotland have nothing to offer the people of Scotland from now until we vote on 18th of September.

      One by one, they are reducing the number of programmes that I listen to or watch on BBC Scotland.

      No more teatime Reporting Scotland, no more Scotland 2014, probably no more Crossfire. All that’s left for me is a limited amount of listening time given to GMS.

      Do I get a reduction on my license fee for all my cut backs.

      IF it’s a NO vote (SPIT), my BBC License is the first thing to hit the bin.

    66. caz-m says:

      A Labour Party spokesman on Sky News this morning telling Murnaghan that Muslims shouldn’t feel isolated,

      “You can be Muslim and British”.

      Where have we heard something similar before.

    67. caz-m says:

      Rachel Reeves of the Labour Party getting slaughtered on the Politics Show by Andrew Neil.

      A must for IPlayer and re-posted back on here.

      So many points she has made contradict what Scottish Labour are telling Scots.

    68. Stitchintime says:

      It sounds to me like you need to start your on Radio Station that is everything that you want to listen too, is local and informative to the nation.

      Someone is bound to be able to take up the challenge to begin one.

    69. Grouse Beater says:

      Cindie on relying on tourism

      There’s an argument – and a ton of evidence to back it – relying solely on tourism is death my numbers. Perhaps you can ask the No’s what they plan to do in the event Westminster turns into Tory-Ukip haven, which it seems likely to do. (Folk can ignore opinion but are forced to think if asked a question.)

      There has to be much, much more to the Highlands than tourism if we are to regenerate this land and make it dynamic again. Crafts aside, there’s serious farming, experimental crop growing, industry, self-generating community villages, harnessing hydro power, local radio, local tv, aforestation, paper making – hand-made paper too, lots of things that will add more to a local economy and for a greater length of time than fickle tourism.

      Tourism ought to be the icing on the cake not the core economy.

      Community villages that produce their own economy:
      If the Amish can do it, we Scots can do it!

    70. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

      @Cindie says:
      @Robert Louis
      Frankly if visitors were that petty and childish I’d rather they didn’t visit. But it is the concern that comes up time and again in conversations about Independence.

      After independence three examples of factors that will boost tourist visitors to Scotland are:-

      1) From the viewpoint of rUK Scotland will have become ‘foreign’ and will therefore be more (not less) interesting for holiday visits.

      2) For up to five years there will be a Braveheart-style effect (as recorded in the nineties with soaring visitor numbers to the Wallace Monument in Stirling), where the Scots diaspora will, in large numbers, make visits back to the now-independent old country, to see the new situation for themselves.

      3) At present many visitors to UK from overseas would like to visit Scotland as part of their trip, but finish up flying into London, and don’t make it to Scotland. After independence a proportion of these tourists will make definite arrangements to visit Scotland, simply because they will then see it as a country in its own right to be visited.

    71. gerry parker says:

      @ caz-m.
      Suspend your payment to BBC until after the referendum, just like they suspended their membership of the CBI.

    72. Schrodinger's cat says:

      themadmurph says:
      @Schrodinger’s cat

      I tried to read Andy’s book, but it was a bit legalese and dry and I’m afraid I gave up on it. However, I’m sure he knows much more about land reform than I do.

      probably the most sensible comment about land reform i read.
      there is nothing simple about land reform, the devil is always in the detail, its like writing a book, quadratic equations for dummies, not really possible. The thing that I took from andy;s book was a few of the statistics, eg 1923 people own 9.5 million acres of scotland. that cannot be right in anyones book

    73. Helena Brown says:

      I am no capitalist but can I put something straight here, whilst nobody wants to see house prices soar because as has already been said all that happens is that you can never catch up. The majority of people who bought a house to live in will eventually want to move, many because the first house they buy and could afford will not be big enough. Therefore they need a profit on that purchase to finance the bigger house. They do not need it to be a huge jump but they do need something. In the preceding years I have heard nothing but condemnation regarding people who made a purchase in 2007 and who to this day cannot even recoup the money they expended. These were just ordinary people who had no choice in the matter, that was the price being asked and that was what they had to pay.
      I have noticed that since the new Help to Buy scheme introduction, that because there are insufficient second hand houses for sale that the prices are increasing. I have no idea how people are buying but they are, there is hardly a house in my area of Dunfermline which has not sold.
      The Council have apparently helped Barratt out by purchasing a block of flats for Social Housing, whilst the Social Housing site at Halbeath continues to grow. We need both sorts of housing but we should remember there is still a wish, an aspiration if you like to have bought your house. Stupid it might be because you are paying rent to the Bank?building Society till you pay it off.

    74. Edmund says:

      House prices are at the root of what is rotten in the UK.

      Everyone seems to want money for nothing – a nice ‘portfolio’ of serfs toiling away to fund a middle-class lifestyle.

      Prices tripled under Labour. In my preferred city in Scotland the cost of a flat went from 30k or so to over 100k – more for a decent one. Fresh from University, with my 16k of student loan debt and my 18k graduates wage, there was no way I could buy immediately. Older colleagues told me of the ‘windfalls’ that had come their way from selling or renting out their first time buyer homes. Windfalls funded by new entrants like me, far poorer than those lucky enough to be born ten years earlier.

      By the time I was established in my career and had paid down a chunk of my student debt, houses had become completely unaffordable. In a volatile job market, I had been made redundant three times, and could not justify the risk that a massive mortgage would represent.

      Since the banking crisis Westminster has done everything possible to ‘lock in’ those insane 2007 prices, while ensuring that wages stay low.

      After the final redundancy I had no option but to move away from my friends and head south to London, due to the extreme centralisation of the UK economy. Here, I have a very good job and pay higher rate tax, but the average house price is nearing half a million pounds, so I am no better off.

      ‘Investors’ go to seminars which teach them how to exploit others by monopolising living space. Flats are built not as homes but as commodities, marketed to overseas investors. ‘Affordable housing’ means shared ownership – and anyone who can’t see that that’s a massive scam is deluded. The same amount of money that once bought you a house now buys you the right to a lifetime of paying rent on a tiny cardboard flat.

      The UK is a neo-feudal state. I even know people who live in shared houses and can’t afford to buy for themselves, wanting to ‘invest’ in buy-to-let. People don’t sell houses any more, but rent them out, ensuring that the young are forced to pay other people’s mortgages.

      In the UK inequality is now inherited. Everyone my age I know who has bought a house has had a large wedge from their parents to fund it. So much for adults standing on their own two feet.

      I pity anyone starting out today. An English graduate will have a 45k loan they will never pay off. That’s like being born with a mortgage but no house. Where are these children going to find the spare money for rent, never mind the quarter-million required to buy?

      High house prices have blighted my life. Having a stable family life would have been nearly impossible for me – always in shared houses or private rentals under the threat of the AST. And I am not that young any more.

      So go ahead and vote No for higher house prices. See how your children thank you when they are forced to move far away and live in flop houses to fund it. See how your country looks when a generation with no pension but with rent to pay comes to try to retire.

      I don’t know how anyone can want to stay governed by the current system, given the last twenty years of mismanagement.

    75. Cindie says:

      @Grouse Beater, @Calgacus MacAndrews. I completely agree with both of you. I think that the Highlands has so much potential. Lesley Riddock and Andy Whiteman are excellent on some of the opportunities and possibilities that Independence might bring, but they are perhaps a little cerebral? It would be great to have a Wings article on rural Highland issues that I could hand to people. Unless there is already such an article and I have missed it? Perhaps one of you could be persuaded to write it, as you’ve already given me a couple of points that I will raise next time I have the conversation.

    76. Kestral says:

      If we abolish air passenger duty does that not make it cheaper to fly into Scotland?

      I believe it’s chargeable both in and out of the country, but not on any onward journey stop over of less than 24 hours

    77. Stitchintime says:

      People will always want to visit Scotland, its people are friendly and work very hard to make visitors welcome. So when Scotland gets its Independence they will still want to visit you.

    78. Grouse Beater says:

      When the Inane for Domination insist on telling us the SNP and all Nationalists are degenerates, when they use wild description to defame and demean, we should take note.

      If those in power teach us bad history, and contempt for our own kith and kin, we’re in trouble.

      Unreliable politicians and dishonest spinners such as Darling and McTernan simultaneously preaching to us and also condemning us should be rejected.

      You cannot be Hannibal the Cannibal and Svengali at the same time.

    79. Nana Smith says:

      Travelling to Aberdeen on Friday I attempted to count how many yes stickers, posters I could see on vehicles and property. The traffic was pretty heavy especially approaching the city. I spotted 3 yes stickers on cars, one poster on a lorry window and 1 yes sticker on a house window in Nairn. On the way home yesterday I didn’t bother looking.

      To top it all we were at dinner last evening with English friends who told us they are all voting no as are their extended family who are living in Scotland. They have swallowed all the bt lies, passport border controls etc etc. We tried to give them the facts and gave them links to websites regarding the issues and I stressed the media bias and the upcoming protests. For all that they seemed fairly determined. The main worry for them is that England will suffer greatly.
      Disappointed to say the least.

      The Yes campaign really need to get some control as the Sunday herald is not enough.

    80. Kestral says:

      typical family will pay more than £120 in APD each year

      It is only payable on the exit journey from UK, however considering the most used band is a £26.00 fee, for a family of 4 that’s an instant £100 off the price of a holiday in Scotland

      I would suspect our tourism industry will flourish when it’s 100 quid cheaper to come here

    81. Schrodinger's cat says:

      Cindie says:
      . Lesley Riddock and Andy Whiteman are excellent on some of the opportunities and possibilities that Independence might bring, but they are perhaps a little cerebral? It would be great to have a Wings article on rural Highland issues that I could hand to people.

      thats a good idea, I wonder if the rev could get andy to do an article and maybe answer some questions for us

    82. Krackerman says:

      Jesus – BBC doing another hatchet job on Sunday Politics… Curran out talking nonsense as always…

    83. Krackerman says:

      Curran geese me the heebee jeebies….

    84. steveasaneilean says:

      @Edmund – spot on mate. The housing market is the rotten core of capitalism in the UK. We have gone from the situation where the average house price was 3x average earnings to a situation where the difference is now 10x. The fact that our politicians want house prices to go even higher and see that as a positive thing is proof (if ever that were needed) that they live on a different planet to us ordinary punters.

    85. Adrian B says:

      A successful society requires a number of intertwined tangible core services to work well.
      Here are some quick thoughts:

      1.) Good quality wide ranging local employment.
      2.) Good quality affordable rental and buyers housing stock with local amenities and good transport links.
      3.) Affordable goods and services
      4.) Affordable private pensions (at present these work best for those that work in the financial sector) hence why we have investors in housing stock.

      We need government at local and national level that will bring this to wide areas of the country in a sustainable manner. We need control over all areas of policy to create this.

    86. CameronB Brodie says:

      How about some Paul Cheshire, of the London School of Economics?

      http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/greenbelt-myth-is-the-driving-force-behind-housing-crisis/

      http://www.lse.ac.uk/geographyAndEnvironment/research/Clusters/EG/home.aspx

      Turning houses into gold: the failure of British planning – Paul Cheshire

      http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/cp421.pdf

    87. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      O/T

      The betting odds concoction continues with a seriously uninformed (or deliberately ill informed ) article in today’s Sun.

      Firstly let me state a truth. It is peanuts for the UK Gov
      / Better Together/ Vote No Borders to fund a £400,000 bet on a NO Vote. That was exactly what happened a couple of weeks ago and that was to deliberately manipulate the odds which were reflecting a stream of bets on YES which was shortening the odds on a YES victory all the time.

      The whole thing is fishy. The betting company involved (William Hills)I’m sure is complicit in the plot as it was in the previous dubious £200,000 bet which got reported twice in the media (but strangely did not effect any change in the odds offered).

      Just as fishy is the tale that only William Hills is getting these volume of bets even though they are offering lower odds.

      To cut a long story short this has allowed a story in the Sun to say that most of the bets are going on NO. This is not the case (as evidenced by Odds Checker online showing twice as much on YES as NO in bets)). The vast majority of individual bets are on YES. I would bet there are very few individual bets on NO.

      To get to the point. All the bookies have slid the YES odds out a bit on this plot.

      You can now get 7/2 a YES vote. Really good odds (though not as good as the 11/2 or even 6/1 that was available last year)

      Better bet is 5/1 50% – 55% of the vote (Hills) or, better still, 7/1 over 55%.
      Get on

    88. CameronB Brodie says:

      P.S. I don’t do eco-hate and I like trees. 🙂

    89. themadmurph says:

      @Schrodinger’s cat

      I did like the little story at the start about fighting the land owner for their land! It sort of puts it in perspective. Sort of – my ancestors fought for and took land and then enshrined their right to it in law!!

    90. Bob Sinclair says:

      Don’t know if any of you have been listening to Desert Island Discs on R4 – Interview with Judie Murray. Given that the Fail on Sunday ran with ‘Judie Murray Slams Alex Salmond’ I thought I just better have a listen. Guess what, the Fail on Sunday once again avoided any context when quoting her, she commented on the incident but really did not sound like it annoyed her.

      The impression I got was of a woman very much in the public eye who is studiously avoiding or trying to avoid being stitched up by the Media. Probably a wise choice by her.

      There were a few interesting song choices and comments on the programme as well which lead me to think that whilst not willing to speak out in public she may well be on our side.

    91. Brian Mchugh says:

      Helena, if you are upsizing your house, house price rises are bad. Say you have a £100,000 home and want to upsize to a £200,000 home (for easy arithmetic numbers), then a 10% increase in house prices mean you will get an extra £10,000 for the home you sell, but will have to pay an extra £20,000 for the home you want.

      Downsizing is the opposite of course. The only real profit in property is to buy a home that requires some renevation and buy cheap and do the work on it to improve its value.

    92. K1 says:

      @Dave McEwen Hll, yes I realised this a couple of weeks ago when Stu broke the story:

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/against-all-odds/

      I immediately placed money on the 7/1 over 55% Yes at Ladbrokes.
      They are at it!

    93. msean says:

      Where do they get these commentators?

    94. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

      Dutifully purchased my one-and-only newspaper of the week today (Sunday Herald).

      Highlight was reading that BBC (Alba) have commissioned a second series of Katie Morag.

    95. Schrodinger's cat says:

      @themadmurph

      yeah, it was witty, but scotland would be pariahs if we simply took back all of the land into state ownership
      But we dont need to
      replacing council tax with a ltv will achieve the same thing
      what wightman, the snp and the greens dont really explain is the effect that a LVT or maximum acreage limit on ownership would do
      For most people, this would entail a change in the amount of council tax you pay, some would win, some would lose, by about £200 either way per year. Point is, this LVT isnt really aimed at the folk who live in cities, it is aimed at the 1923 who own 9.5million acres of scotland. even a modest £100/acre will mean these 1923 folk will need to find nearly a billion quid.
      1. a large amount of land will go on the open market
      2. the price of land will fall
      3. if 400, 000 people aquire a couple of acres of land each, expect the number of applications to build to rocket
      4. What will that do to the price of land and houses in the rest of scotland????

    96. Truth says:

      I don’t own a house. I would like to.

      Even if I did own a house, I would not consider this good news, as I know it would be harder for my son and others in the future to own a house.

      Murdo is appealing to the base desire of greed.

      We are better than this people, we prefer to think of others as well as ourselves.

      Murdo, I prefer a society where everyone can afford a nice house, long before it makes me an extra £23k.

      On a side note, we are building about a quarter of the houses we should. We’ve been doing this for years. Someone please build 100,000 houses per year for the next 5 years and our housing affordability crisis is solved. Not only that, our economy will boom.

    97. Grouse Beater says:

      Dave said: The vast majority of individual bets are on YES

      I can only speak for my local: when I asked if the No bets were still outnumbering the Yes’s, the assistant at the window scoffed.

      “Yer kiddin’. In here Yes bets outnumber No’s 3 to 1.”

      And I was truly surprised.

    98. Tom Platt says:

      From earlier in the thread:-

      “I’m voting No because it’ll be good for me / my pension / my house value / me me me…”

      Some poor soul has swallowed all the mince offered up in the defence of the Westminster regime without realising that it had been accidentally left in the back of the car and cooked by people who are obsessed with “No”‘s but have no nose!

      The only effect on the pension will be a possibly positive one. House prices, outside Aberdeen and Edinburgh, have always followed and under-performed those from South of the border. It helps to provide a flow of immigrants from England. The effect on “me. me , me” will be nothing but positive as we learn to look after ourselves…we can look after ourselves better than others can look after us.

      Tom

    99. Peter A Bell says:

      “Murdo Fraser actually thinks…”

      Are you absolutely certain about that?

      Murdo is a decent sort of chap, in that superficially likeable way that some professional politicians affect. But I don’t think he will ever be mistaken for one of the great thinkers of our age.

      I attended a Better Together event some weeks ago at which Murdo was one of the panellists. I listened with as much amazement as amusement as he recounted how he had originally been dead set against devolution, but now thought the Scottish Parliament was a great thing.

      He then told us that he had also been fervently opposed to the independence referendum, but now accepted that it too was a good thing.

      What was astounding was the fact he actually seemed to believe this catalogue of errors on constitutional matters made his opposition to independence more credible rather than less.

      More astounding still was the fact that none the No voters present seemed prepared to question his credibility despite him having admitted to having a perfect record of being wrong.

    100. Grouse Beater says:

      Stuart

      As a journalist I’m sure this will have entered your thoughts: when all this is over you have a fine book, a collection of your best and most relevant Referendum topics, recounting lies and propaganda, a compendium of perfidious crap. It will make a good guide for scholars and historians of how one nation holds tight to power.

      You have a talent for titles: I’ll leave that to you.

      I’d certainly buy a copy for reference.

    101. TheItalianJob says:

      @Grouse Beater

      Good idea. I’m for buying a few copies. I’ll hand a few to those I know voted No.

    102. scaredy cat says:

      Whatever happened to buying a house to make a home in?

      O/T has anybody got any information about what was actually said by the Chinese premier? I heard via Facebook that the words were translated incorrectly. Apparently a foreign channel showed different subtitles.

    103. Neil Craig says:

      It is clear that the estate agents are talking about “high value” homes. What they mean is that if Scotland separates and there is the likelihood of a socialist state folks with money are not going to be keen on staying. I assume most in the Yes campaign will see that as a good thing.

      The rest of the article is rubbish. 3/4 of housing cost is state parasitism, nothing to do with the market. The Labnatcondems are united in wanting higher house prices (even my own party, UKIP, is less progressive here than I would like).

    104. Bob Sinclair says:

      Will someone PLEASE shut that door, a blast of hot air has just hit us again.

    105. Adrian B says:

      UKIP is nothing more than a neoliberal Tory party on Acid and speed with policies to accelerate a neoliberal agenda of privatisation / weakened social safety net and a return to the workhouse conditions of the late 19th century.

      In essence a world that is made for the betterment of those in power and the expense of society and everyone else.

    106. galamcennalath says:

      Interesting that the Sun is running with Alex Salmond being the target of online abuse. That makes a change for the MSM.

    107. Jim Thomson says:

      @Adrian B – UKIP have “policies”?

    108. Andy smith says:

      Interesting story in today’s Sunday herald,..a poll conducted by Scotland’s leading Asian radio station,Awaz FM, shows a 20% lead for yes ! .

    109. Adrian B says:

      UKIP have “policies”?

      ideas that appear prior to a public vote, then slip away back into the darkness after the polls close.

    110. Neil Craig says:

      I see nobody disputes that 3/4 of housing costs are indeed state parasitism and that no “socialist” here cares in the slightest about people having affordable housing.

      Not unexpected.

    111. Black Douglas says:

      Neil go and have a kip, you’re shift must be finished by now!

    112. Robert Peffers says:

      @ Stitchintime says: “It sounds to me like you need to start your on Radio Station that is everything that you want to listen too, is local and informative to the nation.

      Someone is bound to be able to take up the challenge to begin one”

      Someone already has – Derek Bateman on-line

      http://batemanbroadcasting.com/episode-3-referendum-left

    113. Adrian B says:

      I see nobody disputes that 3/4 of housing costs are indeed state parasitism and that no “socialist” here cares in the slightest about people having affordable housing.

      Not unexpected.

      Quotes from the first ten comments on this thread would suggest that people do think that the existing housing situation is indeed a problem. If any of these people consider them selves to be “socialists” I am not able to confirm.

      “Independence will see a boom in the affordable, social housing sector, something that has been missing for years forcing people to either privately rent or stay with parents.”

      “Oh no, not more affordable house prices, how will we cope?”

      “Vote No so your kids won’t be able to buy a house?”

      “Please vote YES.
      Best regards,
      From many, many thousands in Wales who can’t for the life of them afford a home in their own communities.”

      “We need more homes built, more private and social housing.
      This would take the heat out of the market and keep house prices at an affordable price for the average family.”

      “way to kiss osborne`s ponzy scheme butt Murdo you halfwit dont you people learn anything you are doing exactly the same thing as those labour idiots creating a housing bubble which is going to go pop and make 2008 look like an economic blip but then all your rich buddies are going to make billions out of it on the backs of the ordinary punter arnt they you thieving reprobates.”

      I would say that does indicate that people do wish to have affordable housing. This does not seem to be a goal shared with many in the Westminster arena and is why many wish to have a far wider range of proper government powers at our disposal in Scotland to help counterbalance our economy with that of the South East.

    114. Neil Craig says:

      Adrian “socialists” saying they care but being absolutely opposed to allowing things that would fix the problem is not really caring.

      As normal on Wings threads I note that no nationalist/socialist is remotely interested in discussing issues and merely engages in rudeness. Such behaviour may be typical of the Yes campaign but it is not in any way honest.

    115. Black Douglas says:

      Dont feed the troll

    116. heedtracker says:

      As normal on Wings threads I note that no nationalist/socialist is remotely interested in discussing issues and merely engages in rudeness.

      Fuck off

    117. Adrian B says:

      Answering questions and giving quotes elevates “socialist” to nationalist/socialist”. Discussing the very topic asked for is now not being honest.

    118. Andy smith says:

      Heedtracker,I’ll be sending you laundry bill for clean shirt after that last comment. Cup of tea and laughing don’t mix.

    119. Neil Craig says:

      “Fuck off”

      Well I guess that shows me.

      Not sure if Stuart has a commenting policy on those who use obscenity because they know the facts are against them?

      I cannot imagine that any Yes supporter with any personal decency would fail to be disgusted by heedtracker’s obscenity, or fail to say so.

      On the other hand no “nationalist” has, yet, said so.

      Is this what the Yes campaign actually depends on?

    120. Black Douglas says:

      Neil Says:

      “I cannot imagine that any Yes supporter with any personal decency would fail to be disgusted by heedtracker’s obscenity, or fail to say so”

      I agree with heedtracker

      Now don’t feed the troll

    121. Adrian B says:

      Here is your comment at 3.25 this afternoon:
      “Bur mein Fuhrer, you told us not to mention the problems in invading Russia till after it was over”

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/keir-hardies-grave/comment-page-1/#comment-1648607

      I cannot imagine that any Yes supporter with any personal decency would fail to be disgusted by heedtracker’s obscenity, or fail to say so.

      On the other hand no “nationalist” has, yet, said so.

      I think that expecting an apology for you trolling is therefor a little odd. Whether someone regards themselves as a “nationalist or not is up to them. What I do think is that people using “Fuhrer” references are only here to cause trouble.

    122. Ken500 says:

      You can’t take it with you.

    123. Ken500 says:

      The Chinese Premier said, ‘The Referendum vote should be respected’.

    124. Ken500 says:

      A bit rich from the unelected Chinese Premier. They buy a lot of salmon and whisky.

    125. Adrian B says:

      Oh look another post from the esteemed one on another thread:

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/keir-hardies-grave/comment-page-1/#comment-1648830

      Again following the same theme of using the word nationalist in “brackets”

    126. Ken500 says:

      Oops

    127. Ken500 says:

      Unionists have bankrupt the UK. Scotland has been in surplus for years but has to pay debt repayments for monies borrowed, spent and squandered in the rest of the UK. On illegal wars and (foreign) tax evaders like Fradge, defrauding £Millions public monies, illegally.

    128. Neil Craig says:

      The point about the invading Russia bit is that the saying that risking everything on one throw, as separation clearly is & invading Russia was, should be done before even considering the odds. Considering the odds only after you have lost (or won) is a bit silly.

      I did not compare our Fat Controller or Hitler or even mention either’s name so nobody has any legitimate reason to pretend offence.

      Though as a member of UKIP, all honest here will confirm that I would have such a legitimate reason, were I looking for an excuse. (As indeed I would have if I were a member of the Royal Family)

    129. Paula Rose says:

      Boys, boys just regard the comments from a certain kipper as longer than usual gaps between those of others.

    130. Black Douglas says:

      @Neil Craig says:

      “I did not compare our Fat Controller or Hitler or even mention either’s name so nobody has any legitimate reason to pretend offence.”

      Haha you don’t half talk mince.

    131. Paula Rose says:

      Although if you do enjoy his witty repartee I would suggest clicking on his name which will lead you to his email address, and you can communicate directly.

    132. Ken500 says:

      Where’s Stu the referee. Someone’s slipped through the net. Too many threads, no enough time?

      Unelected Cameron and unelected Premier discussing Scotland’s overwhelming elected FM and democratically voted for Referendum.

    133. Brian Mchugh says:

      How should we f*** off o’ Heedtracker?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krb2OdQksMc&list=PL4A119B37EDE10A15

    134. heedtracker says:

      @ Brian Mchugh, so funny BUT in the case of our chum Neil Craig up there, he’ll be like “but how shall I fuck off, what currency will I use when I do fuck and will I still be in NATO and the EU, simple questions no nats can possibly answer, without telling me to fuck off”

    135. Rock says:

      Along with food and clothing, decent housing is a basic human need, not a luxury.

      By turning houses into speculative commodities, we get regular cycles of boom and bust.

      What gave rise to the current austerity? Speculating on property, that is what.

      Ordinary people, that is the vast majority of people in Scotland, don’t benefit from out of control house price increases.

    136. Churm Rincewind says:

      @Rock – “Ordinary people, that is the vast majority of people in Scotland, don’t benefit from out of control house price increases.”

      Er, that’s not quite right, is it? According to the Scottish Government, some 65% or so of the population of Scotland are owner occupiers. So the majority of people in Scotland would indeed benefit from house price increases, whether “out of control” or not.

      I’m not taking a view here on the future of the Scottish housing market, but I do think we should get our facts straight.

    137. Paula Rose says:

      So how does that work Churm?

    138. Alan McHarg says:

      I work in the tourist industry. I and most of my colleges are voting yes. I talk to thousands of tourists annually, its my job, they love Scotland and wish us well for September 18th. To them its a “no brainer” of course Scotland should be independent! The removal of APD will make it easier and more affordable for people to visit Scotland, but to suggest that the people of England will somehow boycott Scotland is frankly absurd. People visit Scotland because our country is beautiful, we have history, the people are friendly and we produce some of the best food and drink in the world. What attracts people to Scotland will not change with independence, but only enhance it.

    139. Churm Rincewind says:

      @Paula Rose – I’m not sure if I fully understand your question, but if house values in Scotland increase by (let’s say) 10% then the owners of those houses are 10% wealthier than they were before.

      And given that the majority of people in Scotland own their own homes, according to the Scottish Government, then any increase in the value of their homes makes them correspondingly wealthier.

      So an increase in the value of houses in Scotland would benefit the majority of people in Scotland.

      That seems to me straightforward, but it may be that I’m missing your point.

    140. Free Scotland says:

      BT previously told us we would be better off to the tune of £1400 a year if we voted to stay in this abominable union. What’s so fantastic about £1400 if buying a house is going to cost an arm and a leg. Personally, I would rather live on bread and cheese for the rest of my life than do the bidding of someone like Flipper Darling, whose record on financial jiggery-pokery should have disqualified him from any future involvement in politics.

    141. Paula Rose says:

      But Churm – I need a home, I’m not wealthier.

    142. Churm Rincewind says:

      Well yes you are wealthier, though I take your point that your increased wealth may not be readily accessible in all circumstances.

      But here’s an example. I have elderly parents who sadly now need twenty four hour medical care. So they’ve recently moved into a home for the elderly. The home they favoured is quite costly, but they’ve been able to afford it by selling their home for considerably more than they originally paid.

      So they’ve clearly benefited from increased house prices.

      That’s just an example, but I would guess that the same situation applies across the board.

    143. Paula Rose says:

      In the future my “wealth” as in my home may have to be used in such a way – but in the day to day run of things it is not an asset I can sell as needs must is it?

    144. CameronB Brodie says:

      ‘Trickle down’ – society is not a Stalactite.

    145. CameronB Brodie says:

      The housing market is diverse and interacts with the physical and economic environment in countless ways. I understand enough about the economics of the housing sector, to know I don’t know enough to be prescriptive.

    146. Adrian B says:

      @Churm,

      Its not working out so well in large parts of America or Spain. As a model of economic growth the housing market in London is is going crazy again, fuelled largely by foreign investment from China, Russia and other parts of the world.

      Getting on the property ladder is something that is becoming very difficult for first time buyers. There will be another housing crash as these growing prices are not economically sustainable. Even for couples earning in excess of £100,000 per year London is a hard market to get into these days even with government assistance via a tax payers funded scheme.

    147. Rock says:

      Churm Rincewind,

      “@Rock – “Ordinary people, that is the vast majority of people in Scotland, don’t benefit from out of control house price increases.”

      Er, that’s not quite right, is it? According to the Scottish Government, some 65% or so of the population of Scotland are owner occupiers. So the majority of people in Scotland would indeed benefit from house price increases, whether “out of control” or not.”

      Firstly, are you saying that because someone is an owner occupier, he/she is not an ordinary person?

      Ordinary people as opposed to the rich landowners, property speculators etc.

      Secondly, the vast majority of the people in Scotland are not in the business of selling and buying a new house every few years.

      Even if they were, how would it benefit THEM as it is highly unlikely that the new house they were buying would cost them less than what they got from their old house?

      It does benefit the banks, estate agents and buy-to-let landlords. It certainly doesn’t benefit ordinary people in Scotland.

      Have you PERSONALLY benefited from increasing house prices? Perhaps you can explain how.

    148. Neil Craig says:

      You can indeed. I’m not one of those fearsome nats who hide behind fake names.

    149. Adrian B says:

      Churm isn’t a fearsome nat 😀

    150. thoughtsofascot says:

      Neil Craig

      The point about the invading Russia bit is that the saying that risking everything on one throw, as separation clearly is & invading Russia was, should be done before even considering the odds. Considering the odds only after you have lost (or won) is a bit silly.

      I did not compare our Fat Controller or Hitler or even mention either’s name so nobody has any legitimate reason to pretend offence.

      Oh really?

      Bur mein Fuhrer, you told us not to mention the problems in invading Russia till after it was over”

      Lets repeat!

      Bur mein Fuhrer, you told us not to mention the problems in invading Russia till after it was over”

      Again!

      Bur mein Fuhrer, you told us not to mention the problems in invading Russia till after it was over”

      One more time!

      Bur mein Fuhrer, you told us not to mention the problems in invading Russia till after it was over”

      You lose. You’re on damage control pills here.

    151. Churm Rincewind says:

      @Rock – You ask two questions of me.

      “Firstly, are you saying that because someone is an owner occupier, he/she is not an ordinary person?”

      No I’m not.

      “Have you PERSONALLY benefited from increasing house prices? Perhaps you can explain how.”

      No I haven’t. But my parents have. See my post above.

    152. CameronB Brodie says:

      Churm Rincewind
      Hi, have you had a look at http://wingsoverscotland.com/they-are-not-like-us/comment-page-1/#comment-1649585?

      You might also want to check out other analysis from Paul Cheshire, at the London School of Economics. And before you start on that the LSE is nothing but a nest of lefty Fabians, here is what the ‘libertarian’ Institute of Economic Affairs had to say on the matter.(Table 8 on page 14 is my favourite).

      Planning: the evidence

      The anti-development lobby has a two-pronged strategy of arguing. The main track is to deny that there are any problems in the British housing market. Housing is portrayed to be plentiful, inexpensive and of high quality (CPRE, 2006, pp. 11-15). But since virtually every measure shows the opposite, this position can only be maintained by using figures in anextremely selective way (e. g. ‘Of 18 nations surveyed recently, the UK had among the lowest [house] price increases in 2005’ (ibid., p. 14)). The second strand of reasoning is to acknowledge that there are shortages, but to claim that there is no evidence that the planning system had anything to do with this. The Planning Officers’ Society (2011) comments: ‘This is their [the government’s] perception of the impact that planning has, which we do not believe is supported by any serious body of evidence’. The CPRE (2006, p. 17) asserts: ‘The principal factor in the decline in housebuilding […] was the dramatic falling off in the building of state subsidised council and housing association homes […] This fall had nothing to do with the planning system and much to do with Government spending decisions’ (emphasis in the original).

      http://www.iea.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/files/Abundance%20of%20Land%20Shortage%20of%20Housing.pdf

    153. Neil Craig says:

      OK thoughtsofafascist

      Being an honest sort not a lying hypocrite and genuinely believing I have offended against Godwin you must be on record as having spent several hundred times longer criticising Stuart for his hundreds of times more unarguable comparison of the Royals with Nazis.

      As must any other remotely honest person endorsing that line.

      Otherwise you and they would just be wholly corrupt
      hypocritical Fascists, who know you have no factual case.

      Again?

      Otherwise you and they would just be wholly corrupt hypocritical Fascists, who know you have no factual case.

      And Again

      Otherwise you and they would just be wholly corrupt hypocritical Fascists, who know you have no factual case.

      And Again

      Otherwise you and they would just be wholly corrupt hypocritical Fascists, who know you have no factual case.

      OK?

    154. Thoughtsofascot says:

      Rofl

      You deny comparing Salmond to hitler when there is a clear quote of you doing so. You invoked godwins law. You lost the plot. You are a liar AND a hypocrite to boot. A truly typical kipper.

    155. Ross says:

      So independence would piss off estate agents? Another reason to vote yes!

    156. Colin Hunter says:

      My house has risen in “Value” by over £100,000 in the 16 years I have been in it. It is of little importance to me personally because it is now debt free, but if I want to sell it and move, downsize, whatever, it will cost me the same or similar to purchase another house and the only people who will truly benefit from that are the estate agents and solicitors who do the conveyancing.
      What concerns me the most is that, despite attending University and obtaining an Honours Degree in Biomedical Science, my 26 year old son has been unable to find employment in that field. Therefore he is still living at home and although he is working, his job isn’t that well paid. If house values continue to rise, will he ever be able to afford a place of his own?

    157. Bill says:

      We could almost believe that they are trying to drive us to Independence by every action they take and every statement they make. Why don’t they just give up now and hand us our Independence because nothing they have promised is giving us anything we don’t have already or won’t have with Indy! Roll on September 18th!!

    158. Churm Rincewind says:

      @ CameronB Brodie – Yes, I did read the link you provided, though as it specifically refers to the housing market in England I couldn’t quite see its relevance to the Scottish debate. I prefer to rely on the statistics published by the Scottish Government.

      Obviously, a country’s wealth is partly determined by the value of its land and buildings and although I don’t for a moment deny the possible day-to-day impact of rising property prices on individuals, the overall impact by any normal metric has been to increase Scotland’s wealth.

      So I’ve been quite surprised by commenters on this board who seem either to suggest that property prices are irrelevant to Scotland’s economic situation, or to argue that lower property prices would be desirable.

      Or to put it another way, they seem to suggest that either Scotland is a much poorer nation than the official figures would suggest, or that they would prefer to see Scotland’s wealth diminished.

      These are arguments against independence, and I don’t accept them. Which was the point of my original post.

    159. Rock says:

      Churm Rincewind,

      You are simply distorting the picture.

      1. “Ordinary people, that is the vast majority of people in Scotland, don’t benefit from out of control house price increases.”

      Several posters, starting with AdrianB, have pointed out why this is the case.

      By claiming that 65% are owners does in no way prove that they benefit from out of control house price rises.

      2. I am talking of the vast majority. Your parents are a small minority in Scotland.

    160. Rock says:

      test



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