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The Wailing Walls

Posted on February 24, 2024 by
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Andy Ellis

Another belter Chris.

Doubtless the usual suspects BTL will be along directly to monster you for your temerity in criticising the performative emoting of the Hamas fluffers who expressed their disappointment in Rev Stu’s lack of commitment to “the cause” in his post yesterday.

stuart mctavish

As I understand it, the SNP motion contained a logical route to increase pressure for an actual ceasefire via it’s potential to strengthen the enforcement capacity of any judgements in the case before the ICJ.

Given the relative urgency, I’m still wondering why Wednesday’s business was not cancelled and rerun on Thursday, and Thursdays business carried over into Friday, whilst Sir Kier and Mr Hoyle were suspended pending further investigation of what on earth they thought they were doing.

Morgatron

Absolutely brilliant Chris.

Johnlm

It’s not broken it was designed this way.

Thanks Chris.

Effijy

Well Done Chris.

10,000 babies dead and counting while Westminster does want to upset the killers.

Overwhelming public support for Palestine but they couldn’t care less about the public.

500 needless deaths each week because they won’t pay what the medics highlight as fair pay

10,000,000 procedures on health waiting lists.

People pulling out their own teeth as they can’t get a dentist.

6,000,000 living in abject poverty in the U.K.

Innocent Post Office mangers criminalised and bankrupted waiting 25 years and counting to find justice.

Record levels of debt mortgage rates continuing to rise.

Rishi states that we have turned the corner?

Scotland needs to keep its people as far away as possible from the people in Westminster.

dearieme

Parliamentary Convention is part of the mechanisms that tend to have spared us too much of being on the receiving end of shock and awe. To that extent I think the cartoon immature and unreflective.

Mac

The last few months have been a graphic demonstration, in panoramic widescreen technicolor, that virtually every leader of every political party across the ‘West’ is completely servile. It is one thing to suspect but this has proven it.

The second demonstration is that the so called mainstream media are also completely servile.

I honestly suspect the SNP were quite happy to strut out like enraged peacocks but quietly happy it all amounted to nothing.

Isr@el is the ‘third rail’ in UK and UK politics because of the Isr@el Lobby. You touch it, you die. They bought the media and then they bought the political systems. And it is being demonstrated in the most clear way, right now.

Bob Mack

Parliamentary convention was secondary to saving the !abour Party from itself. Preserving the integrity of the basic two party system would have priority.

dearieme

I found this a helpful guide to what happened in Parliament. It seems Mr Speaker simply lost his head.

link to edwest.co.uk

Robert Hughes

Clown Prince Ellis straight in , getting it totally wrong , as usual .

His poisonous little propagandising mindlet and his desperate arse-kissing desire to always be on Stu’s side continually sees him mangle the truth in ever-more convoluted ways .

The * meaning * of Chris’s – superb – work here is pretty fckn obvious , to anyone not obsessed with defending the slaughter of innocent people .

All the vanity posturing , the SNP’s claiming bogus victim status , Greens bleating , Labour craven cowardice , even-by-their-own-standards nauseating Tory hypocrisy ; and I’ll include Stu Campbell’s ludicrously over-the-top reaction to naughty schoolboy Greer risible * militancy * .

All of it is meaningless , attention-seeking pissing in the wind

The comments on yesterday’s post by Breeks , Hatuey , Mac , Confused , Craig Murray , ROS ( excuse me if I’ve missed anyone in this category ) speak the truth .

The rest is just varying degrees of Atrocity condoning sophistry

Mac

I think it also says something that this ethnic cleansing and incremental genocide (that has been going on for decades and has only accelerated post Oct 7th) is of the descendants of the Holy Lands.

Let that sink in…

Ethnically cleansing the Holy Lands.

It does not get much more ‘Evil’ than that does it.

Andy Ellis

@Robert Hughes 9.03am

As predicted, the usual suspects spring in to action with their intellectual hammers, pounding their nails of certainty. You and your wee coterie of tankies don’t represent more than a nutter fringe within a minority of hard of information ideologues.

Nobody in real life would ever take an individual like ROS, who can barely post a contribution without dribbling about the “Great Satan”, remotely seriously. Similarly, though many are happy to misuse the term genocide ad nauseam, most people know it’s not an appropriate term, because they’re no performative, sophomoric, People’s Front extremists who, for reasons best known to themselves fetishise the suffering of the Palestinian people while remaining strangely silent about the plight of many others.

Of course not all of those bloviating about genocide and accusing those who disagree with them of condoning atrocities are anti-semites, but many undoubtedly are or at the very least are happy to condone the extremists promoting anti-semitic aims under cover of opposing Israel.

The positive of Stu’s piece yesterday is that it has raised the rock many of these odious individuals usually slither under and exposed them to the light of reason. Good!

Mia

I must admit I am a bit confused with this cartoon. The art and workmanship is excellent, and the way it displays the level of unnecessary devastation caused by an overly violent and blood-thirsty Israel on Gaza is second to none.

But I do not quite catch the message behind it. I do not know if it was meant to be irony at the charade in Westminster and the fact due procedure would have made little difference to the situation in Gaza, or if it genuinely shows concern for the shocking lack of care displayed by the labour leader and speaker towards genocide and democracy itself. This confusion is obviously the result of my shortsightedness and lack of wit, not the author’s.

Parliamentary convention might not have made much difference to Gaza, but it would have made a big difference to the way Scotland is perceived to be treated in this union, what that parliament is perceived to be and who it is really working for.

Is it still the UK parliament or has it been transformed into a USA and Israel proxy? If the latter, and it is increasingly looking that way, what is the point in it to continue? Why are our representatives legitimising it to continue in its present, aberrant form by continue to sit there?

One wonders what the point of continuing this political union is when representatives of England in the so called UK parliament, and the leaders of England’s political parties are, as shown with their actions, far more concerned about not upsetting Israel than about not upsetting Scotland.

One wonders what the point for Scotland to continue participating in UK general elections is when in the so called UK parliament Israel is granted a bigger voice than Scotland.

What Starmer and Hoyle did was suppressing Scotland’s voice in the UK parliament in a disgusting and disrespectful manner. It was akin to impose absolute rule. So why are our MPs signing a motion of no confidence against Hoyle but not against Starmer and actually the entire parliament itself for allowing Starmer and Hoyle them get away with this abuse of the House?

Wasn’t Starmer the instigator of the change in procedure to suit his, and Israel’s needs at the expense of Scotland’s voice, democracy and due process? So, why is Starmer being allowed to hide like a coward behind Hoyle?

Why is the union still standing after this magnificent display of absolute rule involving the gagging of Scotland?

Why are our MPs turning a blind eye to this by simply seeking a vote of no confidence against Hoyle but not the end of the union after such blatant breach of the Claim of right?

Until when are our MPs going to force Scotland to continue enduring this level of abuse and humiliation?

Who are Scotland’s representatives representing and speaking for if they are not prepared to stand up and act for Scotland every time England’s representatives abuse the treaty of union to put the interests of England, USA or Israel before those of Scotland?

Antoine Bisset

“Islamists are bullying Britain into submission”, says Suella Benjamin.
We have known this for a fair number of years, but it has never been said by a politician, certainly not one seeking the muslim vote. When we natives have voted for a politician we have simply hoped that they would do what they said in their pamphlet, but without any real confidence that it might be so. When muslims used knives and bombs on on our streets and in our public buildings, we provided armed guards for their mosques.
They continued to pour into our country legally and illegally, without let or hindrance.
Now they are demanding that their MPs do as they are told, under threat of violence.
(Interesting that the BBC appears to be ignoring an aspect that should be a major story?). There is still no suggestion that illegal immigration might be curbed.

Antoine Bisset

“Islamists are bullying Britain into submission’, says Suella Benjamin.
We have known this for a number of years. When muslims used knives and bombs on our streets and in our public buildings, we put guards around their mosques.
Not then, and not now, have there been any real intentions to curb the numbers pouring into our country, legally and illegally.
When we natives vote for a politician it is in the fond hope that they might do what they said in their election pamphlet.
Muslims are apparently prepared to use threats and violence to ensure that their elected politicians do as they are told.
Labour are now finding out that “who rides the tiger can never dismount”.

johnlm

Max Headroom is glitching again.

Mac

It is really hard to see how this stops.

No one in Isr@el is going to stop it. The general public strongly support it and even if Bibi went the next PM will be the same or worse.

No one in the US is going to stop it, Biden is not in charge and there is no accountability when you don’t know who is really pulling the strings. Both houses are completely controlled by the Israel Lobby. Pretty much same in the UK and EU.

Trump if he wins is nearly a year away from office and the world has changed since he was last in office. I am not sure he has. He could be a real disaster second time around. Bull in a china shop potential.

V@dP recently said something like he would prefer Biden to Trump as Trump was more ‘unpredictable’. By that I think he also means volatile.

Trump has got a massive ego, it is truly enormous, and I very much doubt that is going to help here, if he wins. And as Doug MacGregor says, Trump has good instincts but has a bad habit of surrounding himself with bad people (neocons). Trump appointed John Bolton remember…

Bottom line, it is bleak. There is no one in the West to stop it. All the real leaders have been eliminated from positions of power.

If a country can go insane then Isr@el has gone insane.

Where will it all end. In defeat. It is an absolute certainty. I see the break-up of NATO and the EU and maybe even the US itself and that is after the collapse of the state of Isr@el.

There is no one left to stop it, put the brakes on and reverse direction.

It is a runaway train and we are all on-board.

Mia

“The positive of Stu’s piece yesterday is that it has raised the rock many of these odious individuals usually slither under and exposed them to the light of reason”

Unfortunately, even when this was never the author’s intention, it might have been perceived by some readers as to have moved that rock over the anti-semites hiding among zionists. Jewish people have not the exclusivity on semitism. Those attacking Palestinians are as anti-semites as those attacking the Jewish people.

Let’s not forget that the Israel of today is a manufactured state which was created out of nothing by a bunch of arrogant and colonially-minded individuals who thought they had the right and could successfully use and re-purposing Palestine as if it was their own land.

To claim that the Jewish people have more right to be in that land than the native Palestinians is ludicrous. To claim that Israel has the right to defend itself, but the native people of Palestine do not, is an appalling distortion of international law and only morally acceptable when you have a colonial mind which dictates the invader deserves preference over the native.

“but many undoubtedly are or at the very least are happy to condone the extremists promoting anti-semitic aims under cover of opposing Israel”

When Israel has, for the last few months, bombed the bejesus of thousands if not tens of thousands of civilian including babies, toddlers and pregnant women, when it has purposely denied the Palestinians of basics like food, electricity of water knowing that this would cause the death of many, when it has disgustingly bombed hospitals when they knew they were medics and nurses there and the majority of the people inside, could not run elsewhere for cover, and when it has committed atrocities that far surpass in number and scale those done by Hamas, frankly, it takes for somebody to have a neck made of the strongest brass to call Hamas and not Israel’s army and government, “extremist”.

Anthem

Mia. Perfectly explained and reasoned. Our (so called) reps are a complete waste of time and money. It’s time to move on from the rotten corpse of Westminster and Holyrood.

Frank Gillougley

Precisely, Chris. Worlds apart.

TURABDIN

There comes a point when «fundamentalist» style preaching to the rocks and mountains becomes pointless and that one must first come to understand what they are and why they are there.
This is not compromise but the beginning of a wisdom that may possibly bring an end to repeat cycles of anguish and wailing.

Den

Many a true word spoken in jest. Sums lasts weeks debacle in parliament succinctly.

Shug

For SNP folk watching the house of commons this week.
The labour and conservative parties worked together to keep the SNP motion away from the floor of the house and the Speakers did what he was telt.
Both UK parties support the killing in Gaza and they will not allow any sharp moves on this subject.
If the SNP ever held the balance of power in the HOC the Conservatives and Labour would work together to manage them. Any expectation of getting a referendum is “on to plumbs!”. It will never happen they will work together to stop it.

Sven

Thankyou Chris, Effijy & Antoine, for your thought provoking contributions.
Even if some merely find them provoking.

Bob Mack

@Mia.

Israel of today is a manufactured State ? It sits exactly where it did in the days of David and Solomon before falling to conquest by the Assyrian Empire.

Does Scotland not exist in reality because of being assimilated into the UK for the past couple of hundred years .A lot of Scots feel it does

Republicofscotland

Sorry but I think this one is in very poor taste.

Geri

Mia

Well said.

As for the cartoon – it may have been seen as pointless in the grand scheme of things happening in Gaza but not here at home. The mother of all parliaments shit the bed lol

England has moved into full dictatorship where there is absolutely no point in electing anyone. Just pass & decline shit without the bother of any pesky consultation or vote.
648 ornaments can just watch on as just two eejits run the entire shit show. Labour & Tory now on the same page of just ushering stuff through without the need for anyone else being there.

That should anger & worry everyone but apparently not.

Mac

Ruskies probably prefer Biden cause he forgets what he did five minutes ago.
Trump has too big a mouth. He just doesn’t know when to shut up – as his defamation cases prove. He just keeps digging. £83 million instead of knowing when to put a sock in it..LOL POTUS isn’t in charge anyway. CIA is. They do as they’re telt or the push up the daisies. Don’t all presidents have to sign something on entering office?

Ellis objects to the use of ‘the great satan’ well who else causes death, destruction, famine, betrayal, corruption, pestilence, war, greed, gluttony, envy, covet their neighbours goods & have the brass neck to sing God Bless them..lol

Doug

The parliamentary pantomime in the Westminster cesspit will continue whether Hoyle is replaced or not. Either way people in Gaza ain’t laughing.

Ruby

OMG people have gone mad!

What on earth has happened the hysteria is even worse than when Diana died.

I’ve been commenting on topic on the previous. Silly me I should have followed the trend and come here to post off topic. Maybe I should try to improve my ego.

It’s all here Ellis with his ‘usual suspects’ and Mia dropping her article into the comments which are supposed to me about a cartoon.

Oneliner

I’m pinning all my hopes on the animals’ rights groups. Ban Halal. Ban Kosher.

Geri

Bob Mack

“It sits exactly where it did in the days of David and Solomon before falling to conquest by the Assyrian Empire.”

They fell to conquest. That doesn’t mean it was theirs forever because some voices in their head say it is. There were Arabs their too.

Ellis will be along in a minute to say they should’ve fought harder.

They were given a land. That wasn’t good enough. They now want to expand. That’s a pretty big deal everyone seems to sidestep.

Scotland never gave an inch of territory. The dunderheids in the SNP should be aware of that cause this is how shit happens. The more they take while Scots reps say nothing, the more they assume it’s theirs.

Ruby

link to wingsoverscotland.com

Republicofscotland

Can you explain why you think this joke is in very poor taste?

I’m not following why people are getting so upset.

Geri

Ruby

Mia commented on the cartoon.

You have not..LOL

Hatuey

What actually matters, in my opinion, and the cartoon above as well as yesterday’s article by Wings only serve to bolster the point, is that the plight of Palestinians is now a mainstream issue. It’s on the front pages and on forefront of people’s minds, and now its front and centre even here on Wings

There are many here and elsewhere who don’t want us talking about the plight of Palestinians and they have had a lot of success over the years. But things have changed.

So, a big thanks to Wings, thanks to Chris, and thanks to everyone who has helped draw attention to the subject. The more attention the subject gets, the more likely it is that people will find out the truth and something will be done.

Ruby

Geri
You being milk monitor now?

I’ll answer you comment about England on the previous thread where it will be more or less on topic.

Bob Mack

@Geri,

Funny. It feels as though Scotland is seen as part of the UK whether we like it or not. We fell to conquest as well, albeit done through chicanery. Have we got it wrong in calling for our Nations return?

sarah

Surely Chris is saying that all the hoo-ha in our media is about parliamentary convention and NOTHING is being done to help the Palestinians? That is not distasteful, imo.

Of course, the SNP members should leave Westminster. The only time this convention has been broken is when it is the SNP’s day for a motion. It hasn’t been done against any other party, ever, so Westminster is laughing at Scotland again, as they have done since 1707.

Breeks

Antoine Bisset
Ignored says:
24 February, 2024 at 9:34 am
“Islamists are bullying Britain into submission’, says Suella Benjamin.
We have known this for a number of years….

But it’s bullshit.

When the UK Government abandons impartiality, justice and International Law and chooses to back one side against the other, do they really expect there should be no fallout from their prejudice, impropriety and bias?

If your behaviour is bestial and intolerable, and you’re habitually indifferent to a veritable smorgasbord of war crimes and orchestrated disinformation and political interference which has blighted the Middle East for decades, (such as Iraq’s WMD’s), and at the same time highly “selective” in your faux outrage towards flagrant violations of UN Resolutions, then should you really be surprised that the victims suffering the effects of these lurid injustices reign their outrage upon you?

The UK and US are (again), making a mockery of the UN Security Council, and its roll as peacemakers in chief and global policemen. What a fraud is exposed, when the biggest agents (and profiteers) of destruction in the Middle East are very same bodies which ought to be studiously impartial and equitable in their enforcement of International Law.

If the UK Government want to avoid being “bullied into submission by Islamists”, then perhaps they should be less enthusiastic about being seduced into malevolence by Zionists, and complicit with the warmongering haters who want those very same Islamists, women and children included, not just bullied into submission, but actually bombed into oblivion.

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Britain isn’t being “bullied into submission”. That’s nonsense. It’s being roundly condemned and lambasted for behaving shamefully, like a murderous accomplice and active participant in the atrocities happening in Gaza when it should be demanding and enforcing the cessation of hostilities. But it can’t, because the UK Government has been bought and sold for Israeli gold.…

If your behaviour is outrageous, then outrage is what you provoke. What else should you expect?

Andy Ellis

Sorry but I think this one is in very poor taste.

The fact this is annoying all the usual suspects just shows how on point it is.

The least scrutiny and the ghastly bullshit soufflé baked by RoS and his wee coterie of Russki fluffers and Hamas apologists collapses faster than Sturgeon’s credibility.

More of this please! 🙂

panda paws

“wen representatives of England in the so called UK parliament, and the leaders of England’s political parties are, as shown with their actions, far more concerned about not upsetting Israel than about not upsetting Scotland.”

Yes Mia, this should be the main issue in Scotland! As horrendous as the current carnage is and the horrors before it, if Scottish MPs can see their opposition day debate thrown in the bin, against convention, then wtf are we still doing there?!

Ruby

link to wingsoverscotland.com

Bob Mack

Many similarities between Scotland and Palestine

Balfour Declaration = Treaty of the Union
(Maybe that’s where Balfour got the idea from)

Expansion of Territory = 6,000 square miles of Scottish sea to England in 1999

What about the extra-regio or whatever it’s called.

Hatuey

Did anyone watch the Tucker interview recently with Mike Benz? You can find it on YouTube.

It is truly startling. He talks in detail about the way the pentagon basically instituted a military dictatorship over social media and the news in response to Trump and Brexit.

Everything, from foreign affairs, Russiagate, elections, the truth about Hunter Biden, to Covid, across the whole west, is basically being controlled by the pentagon.

Ruby

link to wingsoverscotland.com

WTF are the usual suspects?

Wot no mention of the franchise to day?

You really do get your rocks off winding up people ‘Andy’ or is it ‘Andrew?’

Maybe it would be easier for you to make a list of the posters who aren’t ‘the usual suspects’

Bob Mack

@Ruby,

Up until the six day war,Gaza was not Palestinian at all.

Israel took it from Egypt who controlled it. Israel conceded to International pressure in 2005 and removed thousands of settlers and it’s military to hand it to the Palestinian authority with Egypts agreement.

This(Gaza) was a part of Egypt.

Anton Decadent

With regard to the mention of the Building Bridges with Israel lobby group in the previous thread and Jamie Greene being a member, he was a vocal supporter of the GRR. When looking into supporters in the Labour Party of trans woo woo what kept coming up was also membership of Labour Friends Of Israel and/or connections to Stonewall.

With regard to ownership of the media, during the Harvey Weinstein trial the Guardian ran a puff piece on his lawyer. On looking her up I found that she had contacted Mia Farrows son who is an investigative journalist and who had amassed evidence against Weinstein, and said that she was a woman looking for justice against him and that they should pool their resources. When he gave her his evidence she gave it all to Weinsteins defence and then announced that she was a member of same and when he said to her “you have given all of my evidence to his people” she replied “he is our people.”

Anyone familiar with Scotlands public sector and in particular the Arts will be aware that there is an over representation of his people there and that they are actively hostile to Scotland as a nation and people, see also the funding for the John Smith Institute.

Anton Decadent

With regard to claims above that the US is controlled by the CIA, every new FBI agent receives training from the ADL and the head of the FBI admitted that they go to the ADL to be given lists of “domestic terrorists” which is basically anyone who has criticised Israel or a jew. The ADL has a stated budget of over one million dollars a week with which to conduct illegal surveillance and smear.

Bob Mack

Gaza is and always has been kept in squalor. The Egyptians who controlled it till the six day war did not allow Palestinians who lived there to enter Egypt. It was tightly controlled and kept in stasis. Subsequent to that the victorious Israelis did the same. The Israelis handed it to the Palestinian Authority in 2005 because of International pressure and since then both Israel and Egypt refuse to allow unsupervised travel across their border.

Why is nobody criticising Egypt?

Hatuey

“The fact this is annoying all the usual suspects just shows how on point it is.”

That’s the sort of thing an annoyed person would say, Andy.

It’s interesting though that “usual subjects” here are willing to take issue with Wings whereas you and a couple of others think you will win his affection or something by sucking up to him at every opportunity, this one included. It’s quite embarrassing to watch.

I think that tells us a lot about you as a person and how you relate to authority. You’re like the guy in the Milgram experiment who was super-keen on electrocuting the fellah with the heart condition in the next room because he got a question wrong…

It’s heartening to know there are so many in here who will not simply bow to authority like that and that the lickspittles are a small and suspicious minority.

If there’s a recurring theme on here that’s it.

Did you really think being a bootlicker would win you friends here on Wings of all places, amongst a community of people who are defined by a principled determination to challenge authority? Because that’s what we (the ones who are left standing) here are all about — challenging assholes and authority, whether it be Westminster or Nicola.

And you, my little flunkey friend, are the very odd one out.

Anton Decadent

To add to the chain of money and influence for the trans lobby, Google and/or employees of gave money to the editor of Pink News, Benjamin Cohen and to the pro trans Womens Equality Party ran by Sandi Toksvig.

Stoker

Mac wrote:
“Biden is not in charge and there is no accountability when you don’t know who is really pulling the strings.”

Did you know that those pulling certain strings in the background, CIA and NSA etc, consider the position of President to be that of a “temporary employee” and they treat it as such. True if you think about it. Members of said organisations can serve 20, 30, 40-years. But i think the maximum a President can serve is 8? So why give a part-timer access to vital information and “secrets”?

Mac also wrote:
“Trump if he wins is nearly a year away from office and the world has changed since he was last in office. I am not sure he has. He could be a real disaster second time around. Bull in a china shop potential.”

If Trump wins, and there looks to be a good chance that he will, i believe he is going to do *exactly* what you say. He is going to settle a few scores, especially against the one he childishly refers to as ‘The Fat Boy’ (North Korean leader).

I’m not sure he will get the full support from certain figures behind the scenes in any destructive acts of revenge/ego. If they can’t stop him being elected i believe he will be the first President assassinated in a very long time. One way or the other i believe he will be stopped. He is as dangerous as they come.

Lorna Campbell

Excellent cartoon, Chris. Says it all. A mob of over-privileged virtue-signallers worrying more about parliamentary conventions than about the on-going killings in Gaza. You do not have to take sides to understand the human suffering which has taken place on both sides. However, the wholesale slaughter has to stop. That is what all our politicians here and in the West should be concentrating on – and especially in the toothless UN.

Geri

Hatuey

No surprises there. The GRR was shut down too across all platforms – Gender critical voices shut down & social contagion took over to stupify the masses into thinking they can change sex. Then blamed Ch*na for TikTok while half of TikTok is American TRAs having a breakdown because someone didn’t get their pronouns right to American surgeons glorifying in *neep the teats* Dr Frankenstein Gallagher.

I watched the Tucker Vs big pharma, reaction by a doctor, horrifying & equally corrupt as fck. Fat pills the new kid on the block. Also drugs that are known for suicide ideation .

Call me old fashioned but I think they’re removing the undesirables from the Western population. No TRAs, No homosexuals, no fatties, no diabetics, no heart disease. No cures or lifestyle changes – just management, rattling around on twenty pills a day for life if yer thoughts don’t take you there faster..

PacMan

Breeks says: 24 February, 2024 at 12:02 pm

Antoine Bisset
Ignored says:
24 February, 2024 at 9:34 am
“Islamists are bullying Britain into submission’, says Suella Benjamin.
We have known this for a number of years….

But it’s bullshit.

Agreed. Other than the pages of the Daily Mail, there is no evidence that all of these actions are being done by ‘Islamists’.

For example, the Rev published the previous article highlighting how Ross Greer was ‘bullying Britain into submission’. Is Greer an ‘Islamist’?

Republicofscotland

“The fact this is annoying all the usual suspects just shows how on point it is.”

Andy Ellis.

The problem for me and I assume others is that although Chris’s quick wit in this pictorial sarcasm piccy which I assume highlight the yawning gap between our need for a convention and the genocide of the oppressed Palestinians, could and surely is lost by many folk.

I say that knowing that social media which many folk search through, will have seen countless images of the one above of poor Palestinian mothers reaching and looking to the sky with tears in their eyes as their young child/children lay dead at their feet or they are buried under the rubble, ruble created by massive Zionist dumb bombs which have indiscriminately killed entire families.

sarah

Off Topic: an interview with Sara Salyers of Salvo/Liberation will [should] be in the Sunday National tomorrow. I hope someone who can access the paper will share the article on here.

It will be very interesting to see what the journalist’s angle will be. Will it be open-minded and encouraging or will it be a hatchet job?

When I wrote a letter to the National just after Salvo’s launch sharing the good news, as I saw it, with other independence supporters, I got some very hostile responses e.g. those old laws are irrelevant; sorry you are wasting your time with such stuff [as the Claim of Right and the Acts and Treaty of Union].

Has the view of the “Yes” movement changed? I hope so.

Republicofscotland

O/T.

James Che.

Have a read of this.

A myth indeed.

“Bringing events up to date when Charles was crowned King last year he swore his oath to be the rightful monarch and the supreme ruler of England and all her dominions. He was anointed with oil as if he was a divine diety. He was not sworn in as King of Scots because of our different history but most of all he had not taken the Scottish coronation oath. Scotland is not a dominion of England as we are in a political Union only. Our land, laws and culture are different. We are still today a sovereign country.

Later last year Charles III came to Scotland to see the Crown Jewels of Scotland (known as the honours). He did not wear the crown, he did not swear allegiance to the people of Scotland and he did not take an oath to comply with our separate laws. He is not our king yet the main stream media built up the myth as if this was a coronation. It was not.

After 1603 the shared monarch had to take both different oaths to stay monarch of each country. It was only after the treaty of political union in 1707 that the Union lie started.

The last monarch to wear the Scottish crown and take the Scottish coronation oath was James V1 who was crowned in 1567. The last Scottish coronation oath actually taken was by Queen Anne in 1702. We have not had a Scottish monarch since her reign. ”

link to yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com

Andy Ellis

@RoS 2.33pm

Doubtless Chris’ work lends itself to many different interpretations, including perhaps some he would disagree with himself, or not even thought of. Such is the life of an artist, and no doubt he can speak for himself. Perhaps he agrees with your take on things. Perhaps not.

I’m sure lots of people as you say have seen and sympathised with the plight of those in Gaza, just as they sympathised with those on the receiving end of the Al-Aqsa Flood, or Uncle Vlad’s Special Military Operation.

Two years to the day since Uncle Vlad started his 3 day war. Odd that none of the usual suspects are calling him out for being a genocidal maniac. Perhaps there are other reasons for that than just their fondness for Muscovite culture.

Given the choice between being in thrall to that or part of the neo-liberal Man”, I know where I’d rather be. Luckily for us it’s where the vast majority of ordinary folk who don’t share your deeply regressive worldview would prefer to be. Cope.

Republicofscotland

So the Zionists are turning their Eye of Sauron towards the West Bank.

“Israel’s finance minister, far-right firebrand Bezalel Smotrich, announced plans to build more than 3300 new homes in settlements late on Thursday”

Of course its illegal (UN) for the Zionists to build settlements in the West Bank which is occupied lands

Meanwhile those clowns at Tammany Hall aka Glasgow City Council have twinned my home town with a town in YouCraine, not in my name I say they can keep their neo-Natzi’s, yes Glasgow is twinned with the Palestinian town of Bethlehem, however I don’t recall a Palestinian flag flying outside my city chambers.

Also our beloved FM Humza Yousaf has pledged his undying support for YouCraine, this will undoubtably please his US State Department handlers Yousaf spent time in the US sponsored by the State Department, in which he learned to put US interests ahead of all others, and its shows.

Johnlm

Ellis calls himself a neo liberal man???

Given the context I suppose he follows the ex-Trotskyites Irving Kristal and Donald Kagan who became the neo conservatives and then the neo liberals but always Zionist Imperialists.

Alternatively, with his head stuck in the 50s maybe neo liberal means something else to him, perhaps a free, open market, kind of thingy. Currently the market run by bankers, big pharma, military, media conglomerates and billionaires.
A bit presumptuous to claim ‘the majority of ordinary folk’ are with him in that case.

The end of the USSR is going to shock him when he hears about it.

Andy Ellis

@Hatuey

There are of course none so blind as those who will not see. you and your band of brothers (and a few sisters) are indeed the last ones standing because for the most part you’ve scunnered the reasonable majority who used to frequent the place with constant a toxic combination of spamming BTL about fringe nutter issues nobody really cares about and which have limited if any relevance to achieving independence, or fluffing for wedge issues which vanishingly few support.

You don’t, and never have, represented the majority whether of readers, the broader movement of the public in general.

The recurring theme in here is of a coterie of nativists, anti-immigrant bigots, Kremlin loving vatniks and fluffers for Hamas if not outright anti-semites, whose sickening worldview has laid this place low in comparison with how it used to be in the old days.

Ordinary people look askance at folk who unselfconsciously use terms like “Great Satan”, or who support Uncle Vlad’s Special Military Operation, or whose sympathy for the Palestinians sends them so far over the edge that they see only one side of the story. You and your compadres are types we all know: the ones we’d move quietly away from in the pub, or stop inviting to social gatherings for their woo-woo views.

you and your ilk have turned what used to be a great resource in to a cesspit for conspiracy theorising wedge issue monomaniacs. Hopefully more and more people are seeing the light. Recent posts, cartoons and criticism of Rev Stu’s pieces seem to suggest so. 🙂

Dan

Hey Andy, would you sit next to your daughter in the pub seeing as she sports the pronouns so is one of those fringe nutters pushing the woo woo with wedge issues you wouldn’t want to be associated with because they are so at odds with your own world views on how things should be.
Mind you, I recall you weren’t big for going out to public spaces seeing as there might be lots of unvaccinated folk knocking about. Still getting the boosters and pushing that woo woo are you?

Ach, maybe it’s time for everyone to get Strutter Bubbles so we can co-exist without the conflict.
3 min vid which contains muchos swearing, which you wouldn’t here from within the confines of your own Strutter Bubble… 😉

link to youtube.com

Ruby

sarah
Ignored
says:
24 February, 2024 at 2:35 pm

Off Topic: an interview with Sara Salyers of Salvo/Liberation will [should] be in the Sunday National tomorrow. I hope someone who can access the paper will share the article on here.

If you remind me tomorrow Sarah I will do that for you. I do not have ‘access’ to ‘The National’ but I can ‘archive’ which I understand is difficult to do on certain devices.
If you can let me know the headline of the article it would make things easier.

Andy Ellis

@Dan

Quand on parle du loup, on en voit la queue…..Covidiots gonna covidiot.

dasBlimp

Andy Ellis
Ignored says:
24 February, 2024 at 4:24 pm
@Hatuey

There are of course none so blind as those who will not see. you and your band of brothers (and a few sisters) are indeed the last ones standing because for the most part you’ve scunnered the reasonable majority who used to frequent the place with constant a toxic combination of spamming BTL about fringe nutter issues nobody really cares about and which have limited if any relevance to achieving independence, or fluffing for wedge issues which vanishingly few support.

Well said Mr Ellis.

The BTL’ers here are mostly nasty bigots, jew-haters and/or certifiably insane. I used to pop along here and post most excellent and witty remarks much (as I am led to believe) to the joy of all that read them. I remember James in particular almost salivating over my missives. But no more. You do not deserve me and so I bid you farewell. Toodle pip my celtic chums toodle pip.

Ruby

link to wingsoverscotland.com

What did you talk about in the ‘old days’?

You haven’t told me yet who the ‘non nutters’ are?

Are you referring to yourself, John Main & Chas?

Oh man you are a hoot!

Dan

#AskAndy

Is Covid “Vaccine” Critical a legitimate position for individuals to hold.
Bearing in mind that the jags aren’t recommended for people with certain underlying health conditions. And that’s more of an issue now when access to health care has been so compromised for years now that many underlying health conditions haven’t been diagnosed.

What do you make of the excess deaths in certain countries?

John Main

Not one of CC’s best.

It’s not parliamentary convention that’s stopping Hamas crawling out of their holes with their hands up, bringing the hostages with them.

Sure, that would mean going down to defeat, imprisonment, and maybes the victor’s summary justice too, but it would also mean that the killing of the innocents would stop dead.

The only reason this solution is permanently off the table is because Hamas see the killing of the innocents as acceptable collateral damage.

As to why this solution is seldom or ever discussed on here, alert readers will draw their own conclusions.

Takes two to tango, and takes two to fight mercilessly for 4 months. Israel has made its intentions crystal clear, Hamas will be eliminated. Hamas, and some of the regular posters on here, really need to get their heads around this, whether or not they like it.

Whether or not it’s fair, or justice, or all the other nice ideas that need to be binned as irrelevant when the blood is flowing.

Oh, and BTW, it’s not genocide, and the constant lying about that only serves to muddy the waters about the most straightforwards process by which the killing can be stopped, and the humanitarian aid brought in.

John Main

Breeks says

“demanding and enforcing”

I love it when people who have been whining and greetin about the UK’s interference and busy bodying in other country’s affairs for decades suddenly turn around and insist the UK should get “demanding and enforcing” in another country’s affairs when it’s a cause they care about.

Hypocrisy, or cognitive dissonance, or common or garden eejitcy? Doesn’t matter, whatever it is, it’s big enough to be seen from earth orbit.

Ruby

John Main
Ignored
says:

Oh, and BTW, it’s not genocide, and the constant lying about that only serves to muddy the waters about the most straightforwards process by which the killing can be stopped, and the humanitarian aid brought in.

the most straightforwards process by which the killing can be stopped

I missed that could you possibly repost?

Johnlm

Genocide John thinks that aid is arriving unimpeded?
Just one lie after another.

link to twitter.com

Geri

More people are seeing the light.

Poles won’t fight. They’d rather leave than be signed up as fodder despite what their leaders say.

What Andy doesn’t grasp is that our elected politicians go off script. Rather than them reflect the mood of entire nations & the population that elected them – they get it into their silly wee heads they’ll take advice from an unknown, unelected entity & start gobbing off on the world stage completely against what they were elected to do. 404 is a classic example – they were elected on a peace ticket LOL! SNP on an Indy ticket & so on..

So Andy, your views aren’t reflective of *the majority* There are leaders & there are followers & you are definitely a follower. What you despise about btl comments is we’re not as gullible as you are & you can’t handle it. As demonstrated by yer constant name calling, tantrums about moon howlers & nativists & elevating yerself as some sort of all seeing, all knowing mystic meg of what is happening in the world.

Keep reading yer BBC. Everything is going grand..

Alf Baird

Talking of ‘conventions’, the Sewel Convention also proved to be worthless giving another reason for SNP MP’s tae get thair jaikets an bail oot o Westminster for guid. But thay aye fuffle back an allou England tae impone its laws on Scotland. ‘Sic a paircel o rogues in a naition’.

Republicofscotland

Surely its about time this murdering/regime changing anarchy causing terrorist group is proscribed.

“An ongoing inquiry has been confirming a BBC investigation which revealed that an “SAS squadron killed 54 people in suspicious circumstances on one six-month tour,” then falsified evidence to frame them as armed insurgents.

In February 2011, following the British special forces’ killing of eight unarmed Afghan civilians in a raid, one officer privately wrote to another, “whilst murder and the [SAS] have oft been regular bed-fellows, this is beginning to look bone!” His colleague replied: “I find it depressing that is [sic] has come to this…Ultimately a massive failure of leadership…and when the next Wikileaks occurs then we will be dragged down with them.”

Britain’s most senior military figures took part in a concerted attempt to suppress allegations that SAS troops committed war crimes in Afghanistan.

And a government minister who successfully campaigned to protect soldiers from prosecution believed some of the allegations were true.”

link to thegrayzone.com

“This is the remarkable evidence about a “culture of omerta” – a code of silence, originally attributed to the Italian mafia – within Britain’s Special Forces that emerged this week at an independent inquiry in London.

It is examining the conduct of elite SAS troops in Afghanistan between 2010 and 2013, including the killing of 33 people in eleven night raids in 2011.”

link to declassifieduk.org

sarah

@ Ruby at 4.53: Many thanks indeed for offering to archive The National’s interview with Sara Salyers in tomorrow’s paper.

I can see the headlines of articles but can’t read the full article as I no longer subscribe [for obvious reasons!] – so I will let you know what the headline is

Ruby

OK Sarah

I’m out early to-morrow morning. I’ll be back mid morning when I’ll check for your post.

George Ferguson

Well Chris you captured what I was thinking. Dirty politics has no place in the saving of human life. At the beginning I called for an even hand on the Gaza Conflict. By that I meant a political even hand. Humanitarian aid excluded. The SNP have revealed their hand and its gangster politics. It’s going to bring a terrible GE campaign. There is no depths the SNP will sink to retain power.

Hatuey

Ellis (who seems rather upset): “The recurring theme in here is of a coterie of nativists, anti-immigrant bigots, Kremlin loving vatniks and fluffers for Hamas if not outright anti-semites, whose sickening worldview has laid this place low in comparison with how it used to be in the old days.”

Okay, let’s go through all that and see where it leads.

On the last point, “how it used to be”, you don’t specify a date. My recollection is that the place used to be full of people who were stupidly and unquestioningly “with Nicola” and the SNP. I’d bet you were one of them. We all make mistakes, I suppose, but how far back do you want to go?

I’ve never to my knowledge expressed any support for Hamas or the Kremlin. The reason for that is that I don’t support them in any way. My general opinion is that we should keep our hypocritical noses out of the affairs of others — our military interventions have only ever made things worse.

The arguably genocidal attacks on the people of Palestine is a separate issue. I condemn it just as I condemned the decimation of Grozny. For me this is a principled position based on universalism (as enshrined in international law and human rights).

I am generally isolationist and think we should let people in other countries do what they want, except where they violate universal laws and rights and/or are attacking other states. Intervention and military action against other states should only be possible when it is authorised by the UN or a country is under immediate threat. That’s the rules.

And that makes me ultra-conservative since it’s how the international system of laws, the rules of conflict, and intervention are meant to work, with almost everything done through the UN. The wars, policies, and people you support are at odds with all that — they’re criminals — which means you are the radical and lawless nutcase here.

Calling me of all people in here “anti-immigrant” is diabolical. I really doubt if anyone on here is more pro-immigrant than me. Thanks for the laugh.

As for anti-semitism, that’s just a baseless slur. The only time I have referenced Jewish people on here was when I pointed out that some of the most scathing criticism of Israeli policies and Zionism that I have ever read has come from academics who are actually Jewish themselves — Finkelstein and Chomsky being obvious examples.

Where did your rant take us, then? Nowhere.

velofello

The illustration by Chris Cairns is not cartoon, it is a caution – man, know thyself and recognise your situation.

Israel is committing genocide.

The Uk parliament is a farce.

Uk democracy is a farce – in two words to conclude,

Julian Assange

John Main

Hats 8:29

So you’ve never posted on here, in connection with the ongoing imperialist ethnic cleansing celebrating its 2-year anniversary today, that they “had it coming”?

My, my, how recollections differ, eh?

Maybes you should tell us how that’s a “principled position based on universalism”.

Or maybes you’re just taking your pro-immigrant enthusiasm to the next level.

Whatever, for 2 years now you’ve been full of shit.

Ready to add your condemnation of the October 7 attacks to your list of condemnations? Last time we discussed them, you were claiming they were exaggerated, or just made up propaganda for the diversion of the gullible and thick.

Andy Ellis

@Hatuey

I’m not upset, I’m having a whale of a time. Interesting to see the scales fall of more people’e eyes like Turabdin getting Ruby’s number on the other thread.

I didn’t have a specific date in mind: it was undoubtedly a gradual process. Even after the Nicophants largely decamped to pastures new there was still at least some decent BTL interaction.

I was never one of those stupidly and unquestioningly for Nicola, though like the vast majority I was taken in by her for a time when I was in the SNP. I resigned my membership before the trans rights woo-woo took over the party, ironically in defence of Gareth Wardell which only goes to show no good deed goes unpunished given what a regressive, nativist piece of work he showed himself to be.

The rest of your cri de coeur makes it all about you. It isn’t all about you personally, it’s a general comment about the descent of BTL discourse over time. From memory there was a time I thought you were half reasonable, even when I didn’t always or generally agree with you, but you seemed to go off the rails.

You trying to recast my thoroughly mainstream, majority views as those of the minority, whilst you are somehow on the side of the angels is just risible, through the looking glass stuff, but it’s been your MO for some time.

Andy Ellis

I’m not really a rugby fan, but I understand Duhan van der Merwe played a blinder at Murrayfield today in our defeat of the auld enemy.

Wait til he hears the usual suspects would disenfranchise him. 🙂

Geri

Only on constitutional matters, ya dunce.
Same as every other country.

Can you name the posters that are missing that you actually agreed with?

George Ferguson

A wee reminder we are a small country of just over 5.4 million. Enthralled and captured by a political party that wasted every opportunity over the last 10 years to gain Independence. Sucking on the teat of Westminster Politics to secure short money. And the coming Speaker election standby, Pete Wishart or a House of Lords appointment standby,Ian Blackford. I rather liked the response of Kenny at an Alba meeting the other night. He was asked how would he vote in a vote of no confidence in the speaker of the HoC Hoyle. He replied he is not my Speaker.

Alan of Neilston

Hatuely your a total waste of space with your views . Check out Scott Ritter on U Tube and then “Learn” the Truth.!!

Ruby

Andy Ellis
Ignored
says:
24 February, 2024 at 9:02 pm

@Hatuey

I’m not upset, I’m having a whale of a time. Interesting to see the scales fall of more people’e eyes like Turabdin getting Ruby’s number on the other thread.

You are easily pleased Andy. How come you John Main & Chas didn’t managed to get the scales to fall off people’s eyes with regards to me? You certainly tried hard enough.

Do you think ‘Turabdin’s’ post is going to do the trick.

What exactly is ‘my number’? Is it a large number?

I’ve got your number? It’s quite a small number. Want to know what it is?

Weird that you are not able to specify what you mean by the ‘old days’

Are talking before or after 2014?

Were there zero nutters here in them good old days?

I’ve been here for ages I even remember Cameron Brodie who drove you completely nuts. I don’t think you have ever recovered from that experience.

sam

Andy Ellis

“Wait til he hears the usual suspects would disenfranchise him.”

Trolling with an emoji.

In the excitement of the post match interview Duhan said he had played for England

Alf Baird

Andy Ellis @ 9:16 pm

“at Murrayfield today”

The reality is van der Merwe is a South African national and played for South African schools team before playing professionally in France, England and Scotland. He apparently “qualified for Scotland by three years of residency”! That’s a new one on me.

Clearly the limited private school reservoir is no longer sufficient to maintain a half decent Scottish national rugby team hence players from other countries are having to be ‘bought in’ and somehow magically transformed into Scotsmen.

Some might say that’s not quite cricket but I appreciate you ‘civic nationalists’ seem to think you can manufacture the national identity of people even quicker than changing their gender.

Andy Ellis

@John Main 9pm

Yon invasion of Taiwan and Turkish landings in Gaza are both a bit late too aren’t they….?

Andy Ellis

@Alf Baird 9.41pm

Presumably 3 years is enough to qualify to play for the national team? Didn’t folk used to joke you get play for Ireland if you’d flown over it?

We civic nationalists would doubtless be happy that someone might want to come and live here, represent their new country of residence and make a positive contribution rather than reject them for being mud bloods and go out of our way to make sure they weren’t allowed a say in their country’s future.

Perhaps we’re just better people than nativists?

Ruby

Andy Ellis
Ignored
says:
24 February, 2024 at 9:16 pm

I’m not really a rugby fan, but I understand Duhan van der Merwe played a blinder at Murrayfield today in our defeat of the auld enemy.

Wait til he hears the usual suspects would disenfranchise him. ?

Ding! Ding! Ding!

Badger! Badger! Badger!

All this ‘Badgering’ cos someone suggested Andy Ellis’s mail order bride might not be able to vote NO in the next IndyRef cos she hadn’t lived in Scotland long enough.

I am one of the ‘Brilliant Usual Suspects’ and I wouldn’t disenfranchise him even if like your ‘mail order bride’ he’s a NO voter provided they have lived in Scotland long enough to qualify. I expect your ‘mail order bride’ will be OK now unless that last one has got your number and has decided to return to Russia and your planning on getting another one.

Dan

Lolz, guessed correct with that post catching moderation…

George Ferguson

@Alf Baird 9:41pm
I wrote about this some time ago. But no harm in repeating it. The SRU have a State School strategy and are spending a lot of scarce resource on improving State School participation in Rugby. You didn’t mention the numbers of International Rugby players who have a tenuous link to the motherland. Look no further than the Rugby World Cup. One of my grandsons is born out of a Scottish mother (my daughter) and an English father. Should he be good enough who does he play for?. My answer, he was born in Scotland and plays for Scotland but if he wants to play for England then that would be his choice. Let’s not get to hung up on potential franchise. Our case for Independence is better that that.

Hatuey

lol @ Alan

I don’t think I said anything that Scott Ritter would disagree with, so I have no idea what you’re talking about. However, I also have no idea what his views are on the decimation of Grozny, and I don’t really care, although I do agree with about 90% of what he says on other stuff.

Why do we always get bogged down in this sort of “good guy v bad guy” crap when we all know that Governments like people are never entirely one or the other? It’s beneath me even to spell this out but please grow up, Alan of Neilston.

The honest grown-up truth about YouKraine is that the country is divided, with some people wanting to align with the West and others wanting to align with you-know-who.

Western interference has done nothing to help the situation and resulted in untold destruction. Thats a recurring theme when it comes to our interventions. It has also backfired and made every country in Europe if not the world much less safe and secure, and caused huge economic problems.

There’s a serious conversation to be had with regards to issues of “spheres of influence” v “self determination” in the world. The west wants to deny the idea of “spheres of influence” has any relevance when it “baits the bear” and others, whilst at the same time demanding respect for its “spheres of influence” in the Americas and the Middle East. It is from the hypocrisy and lack of clarity on this specific issue that a lot of tension and conflict in the world derives.

Another big factor that is making everything worse is the substandard quality of Western politicians who are generally making total fucking idiots of themselves in the world right now. I suspect I’m preaching to the converted on that point in post-Sturgeon Scotland.

Anyway, I’m naturally inclined to be an anarchist, I don’t see why I am meant to assume any responsibility for the evil that States and governments do. All of them are wicked, to one extent or another, and that’s why I (unlike Ellis) support rules-based systems generally.

Now, time to get back to Call of Duty, where playing by the rules doesn’t spoil the war-fun.

Dan

@ George Ferguson

The case for Indy may well be better than that, but as an engineer you should know we have to factor in that the theoretical case alone is very difficult to make when pretty much all the influencing media is not going to positively promote or support the case for returning Scotland to self-governing status.
Plus without the census information which would show recent changes to population demographics it becomes all the harder to make the case.
Divide and rule 10 , what are we to do, drop the ideal of Scotland’s preferred choice of governance to try and garner the support of Tories moving up here. Little to no need for Tories to vote for Indy when they get that in the Union.
Andy tries to paints an idyllic picture of all those new folk arriving here being a positive for Scotland. But is it really? What if it is just a load of older crumblies from down south buying up properties meaning oor oan bairns can’t get a house, and the older retired folk not working and gaining access to better health services that they didn’t pay into.

link to yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com

Off-Topic Scotland posted this article today re. The Wee Black Book. Note how it makes the point that none of the MSM has ever tried to hold those to account that lied to manipulate the vote outcome in 2014.

link to offtopicscotland.com

George Ferguson

@Dan 10:39pm
Scottish Independence is not a theoretical proposition. Influencing media? I am not on Tik Tok but I could be part of a steering group trying to save Grangemouth with not one politician on it. And there is the answer. Forget the MSM. Forget politicians. They are hopeless. Self Interest rules OK
Except it doesn’t. Holyrood is sleep walking towards a theoretical net zero desert. Depopulation of the Highlands followed by Depopulation of the central belt. The only people making a living are Holyrood politicians their Spads and their spin Doctors. Census? I have the cover up of The NRS but try posting that on any free media.

sarah

@ Dan at 10.39: I was just about to tell the Rev that there is a rave review of the Wee Black Book on Off Topic Scotland today, but you beat me to it – and you provided the link too. Thank you!

Alf Baird

George Ferguson @ 11:23 pm

“Scottish Independence is not a theoretical proposition”

Of course it is, it has to have a theoretical basis:

link to salvo-cor.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com

Alf Baird

Andy Ellis @ 9:55 pm

“make a positive contribution”

Personally I can live without ‘professional’ rugby and manufactured identities. But you obviously think its important for some obscure reason.

Alf Baird

George Ferguson @ 10:18 pm

“You didn’t mention the numbers of International Rugby players who have a tenuous link to the motherland.”

I suppose that for enough money some people may be willing to change their national allegiance. The question is if this is a good basis for national loyalty. Personally A hae ma doubts.

Dan

@ George Ferguson

Broadcasting is a power reserved to Westminster. Ergo anything that gets broadcast on TV or radio in the UK is predominantly unionist in outlook and influence.
As a reader of Wings you’ll be all too aware of the huge archive of detailed articles published on here which rarely if ever make it into the mainstream media, and if they do it is often years after the story broke on here.
This may be the most read site on Scottish politics, but unfortunately the wealth of information is the least acted on. 🙁

I get endless streams of inane low brow shite sent to me by folk that should really know a great deal more than they do.
Adults sharing Facebook memes and TicTok vids need to give themselves a good fucking shake and actually apply themselves to learn and begin to understand just how much they are being played.
I’m sick of furnishing them with basic simple to understand education on a range of subjects only to have to repeat the same thing again a few months later.
Their ignorance on a wide range of subjects is utterly staggering and it’s no wonder Scotland gets shafted all the time. They don’t know the voting systems, and don’t know where various powers reside, and it’s the same for so many other aspects.

I made this post about a week back summing up the situation. The main things that concern folk are things that can’t be addressed within the union, as it is the same union that caused the problems they are concerned about. How fucking stupid can folk be to fail to understand that they are going to continue to be utterly shafted unless a significant change occurs.

link to wingsoverscotland.com

I’m an engineer so can see where problems in systems exist, and what fixes are required to rectify issues, and when things are broken to the point fixing them is not viable, but it seems I am surrounded by folk that can’t even work out what recycle bin to put their waste in…
My car broke a front suspension spring on the way to the shops on Friday mid-afternoon. I reckon it was down to that pesky John Main character with voodoo pins after I called out his “get a life” pish on Friday morning!
But I know all too well the state of the roads and have foresight and resilience planning in place so keep spare suspension parts to hand, and I fitted a complete replacement front strut assembly so the car was sorted and back up and running again before 5pm.
Thankfully the broken spring didn’t take out a new tyre like it did on my neighbour’s car. The lower spring seat on their front strut corroded to the point it completely failed and collapsed and the car was sitting on the bumpstop with the front bumper valence scuffing the ground on undulations.
That didn’t stop them driving for a week and one trip of over a hundred miles to Glasgow and back with the spring rubbing on the tyre to the point it wrecked the tyre sidewall and was lucky not to have a blow out on the motorway with all that entails.
Makes you wonder how someone could not have noticed the car had a serious issue…

Breeks

Alf Baird
Ignored says:
24 February, 2024 at 9:41 pm
Andy Ellis @ 9:16 pm

Clearly the limited private school reservoir is no longer sufficient to maintain a half decent Scottish national rugby team…

Indeed…

2023 figures…

France : 4 “ringers”, or foreign born players in squads.
England : 5
Italy : 6
Wales : 7

Scotland : 21

link to ruck.co.uk

Maybe want to hand back that Calcutta Cup eh? Or maybe start playing in black and white as the Barbarians.

I witnessed how the “professional” game cocked its leg on the “amateur” Borders Teams who had kept Scotland, and I mean Scotland, relatively competitive for generations. Ok, ok, occasionally competitive. That’s not the point.

The last straw for me was PE teacher Frank Hadden embracing defeat before kick-off and putting out a “B” side to play the All Blacks in the Rugby World Cup. What disgraceful cowardice. I don’t believe any Borderer would have done that in a million years.

The wee Border toons had built a prestigious reputation for decades on achieving victories against all odds with the barest minimum of resources… Jed Forest, Selkirk, Kelso, Hawick, Gala, …. Langholm, Duns, Peebles, Melrose, Boswells…. skinny wee lads with wiry limbs half frozen in the sleet, but each with the heart of a tiger. How could it come to this? No defeat or humiliation, even losing the terraces to posh knobs in debentured seating had ever been as painful to endure as surrender against the All Blacks. What brought this disgrace down upon us? Oh aye, …professionalism.

What’s the point of it all when the sacrifices you’re prepared to make for “victories” include trashing your whole domestic network and generations of tradition? Reap what you sow, imbeciles.

Don’t misunderstand me, I don’t blame or seek to discredit any Van der Merwe. The man’s a prestigious athlete, and I enjoy the spectacle of Scotland winning at sport, but it’s just a spectacle, mere commercial entertainment, because greed and professionalism destroyed it’s capacity to be anything more.

Would I rather see a rag-tag hotchpotch of amateur Scottish players being fkd off the park by a team full of professionals and ringers? No…. Well yes actually. Because supposing there were decades passing between victories, and maybe there’d be zero chance of any Grand Slam, it would just be all the sweeter when it did happen, and so much greater credit upon Scotland and all those skinny wee warriors serving their Scottish apprenticeships in the horizontal pissing rain.

Nobody likes mercenaries.

Being Scottish either means something or it doesn’t. It’s not a thing you can casually throw off and on like a jacket. There’s a responsibility that goes along with ” … for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule.” It would seem the Scottish Rugby Team needs help to raise it’s hundred these days.

Oh, you can play mind tricks in your head; “they’re not ringers, it’s Scotland’s diaspora coming home to defend our Nation… Aye, whatever. But in ma hoose, I go with gut instinct, and Frank Hadden will always be to Scottish Rugby what Nicola Sturgeon is to Scottish Independence. These are not fondly remembered as the good times.

Good times? I remember once being lifted off my feet as a wave of euphoria swept the packed Murrayfield Terraces when poor old Dusty Hare missed his third penalty kick. What a time to be alive…. and Scottish.

So Scotland won the rugby today did they? Beat England too did they? Oh good, that’s nice.

Young Lochinvar

Breeks
Dispensing nostalgia?
Merely a case of wiping it down, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it’s worth..
(B Luhrmann).
I played forwards rugby back in the day (engine room or no. 8) and still carry the scars and damage to attest to it. The game is much more professional now, if in my opinion, over refereed into a stop start game.

My granddaughter has played rugby since primary school and is now in the young ladies team of the club I played for all those years ago.
I’m very proud of her.
It all appears much more welcoming and professional than I remember which seemed little more then a working man’s way of letting off the steam of a steel town at the weekend, and what the heck if people got hurt.

Personally I don’t care about convoluted associations with country, long overdue! What’s good for other countries and all that.

I find it maddening that we start winning which becomes a winning streak and our own supporters start bleating..

Sigh..

Johnlm

Talking about parliamentary convention.

From 2018
‘The Knesset has no limitation which prevents it from legislating extra-territorially anywhere in the world,…’

link to mondoweiss.net

America agrees. So that’s ok then.

Andy Ellis

@Alf Baird 9.55pm

Personally I can live without ‘professional’ rugby and manufactured identities. But you obviously think its important for some obscure reason.

As I already said, I’m not that bothered about rugby, although like most I’m always glad to see Scotland beat England at anything. Perhaps that’s the test of being a real Scot? 🙂

Anyhoo…I’ve long thought that if more Scots were as passionate about Scottish independence as they were about something as unimportant as their football or rugby team, we’d have been independent decades ago.

It would seem somewhat odd for any people to welcome a newcomer with open arms so he can help them to success in international rugby and simultaneously boast about Scotland being for the Scots, which only includes native born ones, or those who have lived here for more years than is necessary for them to play for the national team.

Perhaps you can’t see the hypocrisy in it, but most reasonable people can.

Breeks

Young Lochinvar
Ignored says:
25 February, 2024 at 3:56 am

I find it maddening that we start winning which becomes a winning streak and our own supporters start bleating..

Sigh

I find it maddening and demeaning when the SRU appoints the likes of Field Marshal Ruth Davidson to its Board. Maybe she’s there to stop those pesky Scots stealing stuff. Giggle, giggle, chortle, chortle,… laughs in British.

I like to think the SRU is out of touch, but truth be known, I suspect it’s well connected with those it wants to be; and riddled with gatekeepers who couldn’t give a shit about Scottish rugby and nurturing home grown talent. Still, it’s not the means but the ends eh?

Maybe one day we’ll even beat the All Blacks if we stuff our team full of enough Kiwis and Springboks… and don’t put out the “B” team to meet them of course.

Andy Ellis

@Dan 10.39pm

The case for Indy may well be better than that, but as an engineer you should know we have to factor in that the theoretical case alone is very difficult to make when pretty much all the influencing media is not going to positively promote or support the case for returning Scotland to self-governing status.

So how is the situation now any worse than that operative in 2012-14 when the % in favour of independence rose from the high 20’s to 45%? Was the MSM less biased then? Less organised? Recent polls now suggest independence support is > 50%, irrespective of the MSM being overwhelmingly unionist aligned.

We can’t forever blame the media for the collective inability of Scots to return themselves to self governing status.

Plus without the census information which would show recent changes to population demographics it becomes all the harder to make the case.

Does it? In what way? We keep hearing this “we’re being swamped” narrative, and confident predictions that demographic changes will deny us independence, but it all sounds like assertion because we don’t know the figures (and probably can’t rely on them anyway).

It also seem to me like defeatism: it accepts that native born Scots (who still constitute the overwhelming majority of the population) lack the balls to vote for their own self determination, that they haven’t been convinced – even despite the bin fire of British nationalist politics in recent years – that independence is a better bet than unionism, or that it isn’t even worth voting as turnout (whilst pretty good at >80%) was still several points lower than in the referendums in e.g. Quebec.

Of course many people oppose immigration on principle, or want it curtailed, but in a country with a declining population who is going to pay the taxes and do the jobs necessary to ensure our economic and social wellbeing in future? If you want people to come and do a job, irrespective of whether its working as a care assistant in a home, working in education, being a highly skilled engineer or even helping our rugby team win the Calcutta Cup, don’t they deserve to have a say in Scotland’s future too?

sam

@Andy Ellis

“and simultaneously boast about Scotland being for the Scots,”

I haven’t seen such a thing on this site – maybe I’ve missed it.Evidence?

I do see quite a lot about the voting franchise being limited to Scots. Whether or not that might apply to “foreign” rugby players is unknowable. They may all have left, retired or died.

People are never, ever, anywhere 100% rational. That includes you. Your own hypocrisy is on view blaming others for inconsistency (and hypocrisy) when your own inconsistency is present in your post.

David Cobby

To Alf and Breeks

Maybe you should read up on DVDM and how he ended up in Scotland rather than giving glib soundbytes.

You do realise that one of the English team has Scottish parents or that a Welshman scored one of their tries?

Dan

@ Andy Ellis

The situation is the same because the power of broadcasting is still reserved to London Rule, and the MSM “newspapers” are still owned by the same entities that are pro-Union.
Project Fear won the day because it could use elements of the wide franchise as levers to influence the vote outcome.
EG. EU citizens voting no. Most EU folk I knew from 10 years back have fucked off back to their mainland Europe homes as they had a get out card unlike Scots.
Immigration is a power reserved to London Rule too so Scotland has no way of controlling current immigration to ensure it is a positive and not a negative in the short and long term.
Why can a country not view its census data…
The Healthy Demographics article I linked to gives some indication into internal UK immigration. Also 200 newborn children in my area yet only 20 bairns with both parents Scottish kind of stands out as well.
I fully understand Scotland needs a degree of immigration, but we have no effective way to manage that at the moment and it is utterly naive to think UK state interests aren’t aware of this and it’s influencing what they are doing.

Polling may well be around 50 / 50 for Indy / Union but it’s controllable to a great extent, plus there isn’t a campaign on or even the democratic mechanism in place to actually deliver a vote on that matter.
And I don’t believe for a minute you actually think that all manner of influencing factors haven’t already been gamed out and will be initiated should the countdown to a date re-asking the question on whether Scotland should return to self-governance with all that would mean for The Kingdom of England.
The State protects itself, have you forgot what happened to Corbyn?
Closer to home have you forgotten what happened to Salmond and how the electorate can be so easily manipulated.

link to wingsoverscotland.com

Dorothy Devine

OT has anyone watched Breathtaking on STV? I would recommend it to all.
I clapped but once for the NHS – I thought it a futile gesture and didn’t like the company I was keeping.

I did not appreciate what the doctors and nurses endured at the hands of the political leaders and the English Health board. It appeared that the doctors pleas were ignored and health workers at every level were treated with utter disregard to the point of death.

It made me hope that the profiteers , Mones/ Hancocks of this world, would end up behind bars , though that would not alter the appalling death toll.

Neither did I know that there had been folk , who had listened / watched daft lies ,picketing hospitals and shouting abuse at staff trying to do their work.

They dealt with an overload of death when normally they would have been healing those in need.
They were at a point of physical and emotional exhaustion – I may not have applauded them before but I’d like them to know I appreciate them even more now having watched Breathtaking.

I have to say a packet of tissues and a punchbag are required while watching.

John Main

Dan

Sorry to hear about your bust spring.

I can sympathise, sick of replacing springs myself, still growing out a black thumbnail from the knock I took a few months back when the compressors slipped. Could have been a lot worse I guess.

Looking on the bright side, I find the growth in potholes is matched by the deterioration in road and lane markings, so I no longer feel bad about weaving all over the road to avoid the holes. “In the wrong lane for turning left officer? I’m sorry, I couldn’t see any lane markings – they’ve all worn away”.

And dinna fash about the voodoo. I leave that to the “New Scots” (and yes, I know from first hand experience that’s a thing with some of them).

John Main

@Andy Ellis 9:46

Behave yersel!

I’m confident the Turkish boots on the ground aren’t due before March.

5 days to go …

Geri

If England held an indyref do you think they’d give Ellis a vote?

No.

Because they impose restrictions on the franchise.

I don’t know why that thicko thinks Scotland *MUST plat the game differently & why he continually lies that Scots didn’t vote for independence the last time.

Also, London Calling gave a pretty damning view of the BBC, Better Together, the Yoons & the tricks they played. From running fake *no borders* bullshit to running hatchet jobs.

BTW, wasn’t that fake No Borders bullshit traced to I*_real donations & the Hot Cup of warm Cocoa eejit now in the Lords?

Alf Baird

Breeks @ 2:52 am

“Indeed…2023 figures…
France : 4 “ringers”, or foreign born players in squads.
England : 5
Italy : 6
Wales : 7

Scotland : 21”

Yes indeed Breeks, and we are heading towards the same position as in Scottish ‘elite’ universities where up to 9 in 10 academics employed come from other countries. Many other areas of our society appear to be heading in the same direction, in schools, NHS, government etc.

This is what happens when a colonial power does not nurture or provide opportunities for the indigenous people, rather it marginalises and displaces them and their culture, in addition to stealing their resources and sovereignty.

Jings, Andy, even the colonial MSM has noticed: link to heraldscotland.com

Ruby

What do we gain from winning the Calcutta Cup?

What has this South African being doing for the last three years?

Do you actually get a work permit or whatever it is you need to live & work in the UK if you say you are coming to play rugby?

That seems a bit strange. Rugby players aren’t what you would call key workers.

This looks a bit like cheating on the part of ‘Scottish Rugby’

I bet they checked if he was a NO voter. Probably had that written into his contract.

Still what the hell it could be worse they could have imported him to play in the women’s team.

Scottish-South African???? Yeah OK Whatever!

Never mind all that what about the paedo from the ‘Robert Burns World Federation’ & the Cat Killer.

Andy Ellis

@Sam 9.23am

Because you’ve not seen the evidence of it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist Sam. I don’t know how long you’ve been posting or reading, but it can’t have been long if you aren’t aware of those arguing in here for the franchise to be restricted to various degrees, from full on blood and soil nativism insisting only those born here be enfranchised, to various shades of residency requirements ranging from 2 to 20 years.

You seem to be furiously straw manning Sam: it’s not a good look. I’ve never said, nor do I believe, that everyone is 100% rational. Calls for “Evidence?” work both ways.

In what way am I being inconsistent or hypocritical?

John Main

Vladimir Kara-Murza.

There’s an innarestin article about him on BBC Online right now.

So let’s admit the often repeated trope on here that everything the BBC publishes is lies.

Still, Mr Kara-Murza will likely be dead quite soon.

Our side is far from being perfect, and we even have some deaths and imprisonments of our own (Epstein, Assange, etc).

But we’re not yet at the point where everybody “awkward” winds up dead, locked up, or exiled (soon to be dead too).

Makes you think, eh? Makes me think that if parts of the world regard what’s going on as so important that anybody in the way must be topped, maybe it’s time for us in the west to start taking it all very seriously indeed.

Johnlm

@Dotothy Devine
I hope that the ITV drama Breathtaking remembers to include;
the staff sent on furlough;
the staff practicing dance routines in empty wards;
unused Knightingale pop up hospitals;
doctors incentivised at £15 per jab;
the shipping out of the sick into care or back home;
the faulty PCR lab testing;
and Neil Ferguson’s fear mongering mathematical models.

The number one cure for c*vid is to switch off the TV.

Geri

Poland will be in trouble.

404 Refugees want to vote in Polish elections.
404 wants to merge with Poland in a union LMAO!
404 is corrupt & skint. Poland is richer.
404 wants Poland (who has invested in weapons) to hand them over.
404 wants this no borders pish – but obviously not with Ruskies. Just between them.
Poland is dead against it, bad history, but Polish government thinks it’s a brilliant idea.
Germany & France not so keen either but not publicly just yet.

I wonder who gave 404 this crazy notion of establishing a Union & just stealing the neighbours resources? Hmmm..
It’s a great gig eh? Just fck up the franchise & yer country isn’t your country anymore.

See how stupid it is? People are not stupid tho. It’s devious & isn’t in the slightest full of good intentions but for malicious intent.

Ruby

I had to archive it to read it.

link to archive.is

I thought it would be nice to share it with my fellow ‘Usual Suspects’

What makes someone Scottish? Whatever it is, the rules need tightened

Andy Ellis

@Dan 9.46am

The situation is the same because the power of broadcasting is still reserved to London Rule, and the MSM “newspapers” are still owned by the same entities that are pro-Union.
Project Fear won the day because it could use elements of the wide franchise as levers to influence the vote outcome. ,/b>

The point just whizzed past you didn’t it? If the situation is the same, we’re no worse off in terms of the MSM then are we? You still can’t explain why,in spite of this much vaunted, all-powerful MSM agenda, in spite of the bin fire of British nationalist politics and governance AND the implosion of the SNP, support for independence has RISEN from the 2014 level.

Yes, of course Project Fear could rely on new Scots to be mainly vote against independence. Many did so because they profoundly believe in the union (as of course did and do many native born Scots), many did so not because they loved the union but they believed the scare stories and worried about pensions, EU membership and the imaginary fiscal black hole.

The point still remains however that even by the figures in the Edinburgh University study, only 52% of native born Scots voted Yes, and a Quebec style turnout could have added another 7% to the total vote.

Any new campaign, whether referendum or plebiscitary election based, will still face more or less the same MSM situation, but it WILL face a substantially different political, economic and social environment from 2014.

If Scotland wants to be in control of its own immigration policy within the UK, then its got to make the case to have that devolved as part of a revised devolutionary settlement. Good luck with that! The way to control that policy and all the others is just to bite the bullet and persuade enough Scots – native and new – to support independence at the ballot box.

Conjuring the bogey of an all powerful MSM, and the British nationalist dark state, MI5 and the 77th Brigade are all just cop outs. there are no short cuts to indy, and in the final analysis nobody else is to blame if we can’t persuade a majority of Scots – all Scots – to support it.

John Main

Scotland is hoaching with ex-South Africans.

It’s to do with the ongoing clusterfuck the crims and killers of the ANC are making of what was once a prosperous and moderately successful country. In other words, white flight of the educated, law-abiding, decent, rational, hard-working middle classes.

For all I know, most of the ex-South Africans may be descended from colonising Scots. That’s great if so, because they will still have the genetic imperatives to get on in life, improve things, and generally turn a backwards dump into an aspirational first-world country.

If we’re going to chuck them out as lacking in some kind of “ideological purity”, let’s at least wait until they’ve played their part in turning this backwards dump around, eh?

Maybes if they do improve things, and we do chuck them out, we will be smart enough not to let our home-grown equivalents of the ANC gangsters and grifters take over afterwards, although recent experiences at HR have not been hopeful in that regard.

I’m happy to nail my colours to the mast. If we have to be flooded with New Scots, then not all New Scots are equally welcome in my eyes. Some will integrate well and contribute massively, punching above their weight, others will never be anything but a drain and a divisive, trouble-making thorn in our sides.

As for which group might support Indy, it’s always been bleedin obvious to me – immigrants who want to work and get on will respond positively to a positive economic case for Indy. Just show them the money and watch them vote Yes.

The benefits grifters? They will want to continue sucking at the teat producing the largest flow of milk and honey. Maybes WM will always shade it in that regard.

Show us the benefits!

Johnlm

“So let’s admit the often repeated trope on here that everything the BBC publishes is lies.”

By Jove, I think Genocide John is finally getting it !

Andy Ellis

@Alf Baird 10.12am

I can’t read the article as it’s paywalled and I wouldn’t give a rag like the Herald any money, but presumably the rules used by Scotland are the same as those used elsewhere, otherwise the international governing bodies of the sport would invalidate them.

Why should Scotland be different to anywhere else WRT the regulation it uses? If 3 years residence is enough to qualify, then so be it. I don’t know, or particularly care, whether the individual concerned is a UK or SA citizen, whether he’s a proud “New Scot” planning to make the place his forever home, or just someone making a judgement call that since he qualifies under the rules, he’s got a better chance of getting international caps playing for Scotland than for SA or England.

It’s hardly a new phenomenon for elite athletes with little if any connection to the “mother country” to opt to play for one of the smaller nations because they’ve got a lot more chance of playing for them than they ever would of being selected for another country they could qualify to play for with a population 10 times as big and a far larger pool of players.

Ruby

Andy Ellis
Ignored
says:
25 February, 2024 at 10:21 am

@Sam 9.23am

Because you’ve not seen the evidence of it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist Sam. I don’t know how long you’ve been posting or reading, but it can’t have been long if you aren’t aware of those arguing in here for the franchise to be restricted to various degrees, from full on blood and soil nativism insisting only those born here be enfranchised, to various shades of residency requirements ranging from 2 to 20 years.

It was a discussion that took place ages ago.

The discussion is over.

Different people had different ideas at the time.

The only person arguing was you. Maybe arguing isn’t the correct word maybe ‘dictating’ would be more appropriate.

Everyone else was just putting forward their ideas.

You hate ideas don’t you Andy?

You made me think of this story.

link to archive.is

60 years after the war ends, two soldiers emerge from the jungle

sam

@Andy Ellis 10.21

You didn’t mention the franchise in your post to which I referred.

You said “and simultaneously boast about Scotland being for the Scots,” In connection with selection for Scottish rugby.

I’ve seen some say they would prefer not to have professional players from other countries. But this is not boasting about Scotland being for the Scots. And I have not seen any evidence that people would welcome players from other countries playing here while also saying that Scotland should be for the Scots.

You’re making stuff up.

sarah

Ruby – I have looked everywhere on the National’s site today and cannot find the Sara Salyers interview. That is a great pity. I have emailed the person who alerted me to the interview happening to see if they know what has happened.

Ruby

Andy Ellis
Ignored
says:
25 February, 2024 at 10:49 am

I can’t read the article as it’s paywalled

I’m a total mentalist but even I can read the article.

Have you not got a great grandson or someone who can help you out.

I’m glad you were aware that the archived link I posted wasn’t for you it was just for us ‘Brilliant Usual Suspects’.

We Usual Suspects have the best ideas and the brightest team.

Sure a couple of us are mental but mental is good.

I highly recommend it!

Ruby

If we’re going to chuck them out as lacking in some kind of “ideological purity”, let’s at least wait until they’ve played their part in turning this backwards dump around, eh?

I didn’t think East Kilbride was that bad. Maybe John Main lives in a particularly bad part.

Not quite sure how a South African rugby player is going to help with that. Maybe time for John Main to take some action himself. Like joining ‘Neighbourhood Watch’ or it none exists forming one. He could even go out & pick up some litter. Nothing is going to happen if you just sit there 24/7 in front of your computer Johnny. The is probably out there as we speak doing burpees, squats, and lots of bending & stretching. You should do likewise every time you squat you could pick up some litter and put in your back pack.

Just out of interest why does a smart guy like you live in a ‘backwards dump’?

‘Scottish South African’ rugby player’

that’s very weird.

I think it would be more accurate to say

Scottish Rugby Team player who is South African.

What does being ‘South African’ mean? His name sounds Dutch.

Alf Baird

Andy Ellis @ 10:49 am

“It’s hardly a new phenomenon”

You are right, imperialism and colonialism in all its forms is hardly new. As Alasdair Gray said, this is what happens when a people ‘have no confidence’ in thair ain fowk an cultur.

Eventually all aspects of their life, their lands and their institutions are run by ither fowk wi ither culturs an comin fae somewhair else.

And you call for more, more and more of this, as a never ending process? Hence a nation and people lacking sovereignty ultimately perish. Ye dinnae see this, tho, dae ye? Which means ye want it, crave it.

In a colonial society even imperial statues look down on the native and consider them inferior, which is why a leeberated fowk aye pulls thaim aw doun:

link to yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com

Ruby

Sarah

I did have a wee look myself but found nothing.
I did however come across this

link to archive.is

Why does ex-colony the Falkland Islands have rights Scotland doesn’t?

and this:

link to archive.is

Scottish Nationalists plot ‘rebellion’ in bizarre plan to see Scotland recognised internationally as a ‘colony’

The reaction from the BritNats would suggest this plan is a bloody good idea.

Ruby

Correction to earlier advice to John Main who lives in a backward dump.

The ‘Scottish South African’ rugby player’ is probably out there as we speak doing burpees, squats, and lots of bending & stretching. You should do likewise every time you squat you could pick up some litter and put it in your back pack.

Squat! Pick! Back! Get a wee rhythm going. Squat! Pick! Back!
Get it?

Also see Dan’s advice on how to ‘Get a Life’

Dorothy Devine

Johnlm, watch it and see what you think and whether you change your mind over anything you mentioned.

P.S I hope that DOTOTHY was a fat fingered misprint!

Hatuey

One of the central assumptions of those who want to restrict the franchise (for political reasons) is the assumption that people who come here from other countries will tend to vote against independence. Research suggests that indeed was the case in 2014, but from memory the split was something like 70/30 at the extremes, which isn’t that bad from a “yes” standpoint.

Again from memory, I think roughly the same sort of percentages voting “no” could be found in older age groups which for obvious reasons are composed of mostly native born “pure” Scots.

There’s good reasons to assume that Brexit will help promote “Yes” amongst those we are calling “New Scots”, though. The prospect of citizenship in a country that is likely to be part of the EU, is likely to have free and friendly relations with immediate neighbours, is likely to be prosperous, and is demonstrably open and welcoming to newcomers, is a package that would make a pretty easy “sell”.

The delicate issue of English people living in Scotland and their predispositions towards independence is one that I see people dancing around. Of course, here you will find a bias in favour of the Union but that shouldn’t be confused with anti-Scottishness.

An English person enjoying life in Scotland will be acutely aware of the fact that it was the Union that gave them the freedom to live and work here, just as it gave many Scots the freedom to live elsewhere in the UK, but we shouldn’t be cynical about that. And we should remember that most people came here for noble reasons; affection for the people, affection for the country, the social culture, good work and pay, etc.

I’m not saying we should “love bomb” anyone, but there is a political case for reassuring those who live here, no matter where they came from or why, that they can count on us staying reasonable.

The world as I see it is being torn apart by irrational populism and brands of politics that put far too much emphasis on differences. Everybody seems to be really angry these days. If the next referendum on independence ever happens, we should set ourselves apart from all that — not just because it’s shit but because it will help us win.

Andy Ellis

@Alf Baird 11.39am

You still haven’t made the case that Scotland is a colonised country though Alf. It certainly isn’t accepted as such by the UN. You asserting it and hiding behind quotes from writers on post colonial theory doesn’t render your assertions more factual.

The vast majority of Scotland’s population is Scots born. New Scots and their sons and daughters are no less Scottish just because they don’t speak Scots, which most native born Scots either don’t speak or have a very limited understanding of.

Most rational people will see your florid talk of our nation and people perishing as the hyperbolic nonsense it is. If we can’t persuade a majority of Scots to have the balls to put an X on a scrap of paper, we deserve whatever is coming to us.

As for me not seeing this asserting imminent death of our nation or people, or actually craving it, you couldn’t be more wrong. I don’t see it because I don’t believe its remotely true.

Stoker

Breeks says on 25 February 2024 at 2:52 am:

“Clearly the limited private school reservoir is no longer sufficient to maintain a half decent Scottish national rugby team… Indeed… 2023 figures…
France : 4 “ringers”, or foreign born players in squads.
England : 5
Italy : 6
Wales : 7
Scotland : 21”

It’s a sign of the times. You would be hard pushed to find an international squad of players, in all the most popular sports, with a 100% genetic link to the country they have chosen to play for in western society.

Just look at the England international football squad, there are a few names in there not exactly of anglo-saxon origin or whatever 100% English is?

Even the mighty All Blacks have extended their search pool beyond the usual native Maori selection. They’ve now got a paley-walley-skinned, red-headed, Celtic-esq Scotsman playing for them. He was born in the Borders. And the couple of times i’ve seen him play he’s one of their better players. Probably due to having more to prove.

Aye! Like it or not, it’s the way of things now as everyone pursues success at whatever cost. I don’t think there’s a full international squad of sportsmen/women with 100% genetic connection to the country they play for, whatever the sport. I could be wrong, but as i said, you’d be hard pushed to come up with one in the western world.

sam

@Andy Ellis

“You still haven’t made the case that Scotland is a colonised country though Alf. It certainly isn’t accepted as such by the UN.”

Has anyone or group put a case to the UN that Scotland is colonised? If not what is the point of your claim?

Have you read the research by Iain MacKinnon of Coventry Uni into the internal colonisation of Scotland, done with the approval of England?

The research and other research identifies the long lasting effects of colonisation in Scotland (colonisation everywhere has long lasting consequences).

In Scotland, the effect includes the attempts to extinguish Gaelic culture as well as the Scottish cringe.

Hatuey

Hahahahahaa @ “60 years after the war ends, two soldiers emerge from the jungle”

“Have you not got a great grandson or someone who can help you out.”

Ruby playing a blinder today. Hilarious.

Andy Ellis

@sam

I don’t know if anyone has put the case to the UN that Scotland is a colony. Perhaps Alf and his mates should try? Generally to present things formally to international organisations like the UN you have to have standing to do so, so if you’re not an independent nation, another independent nation would have to do in on your behalf.

The point is I’m not the one asserting ad nauseam that Scotland is a colony or subject to imperialism. Take it up with Alf and those who pander to his fantastical worldview.

No, I haven’t read the research by MacKinnon you reference.

sam

@Andy Ellis

So why mention that no one had taken the case of Scottish colonialism to the UN? It’s a non-sequitur, innit?

If you haven’t read MacKinnon you can’t really object to my belief that Scotland has been internally colonised over centuries, with the approval of the English elite.

What’s your view of the Scottish Cringe and its origin?

link to bellacaledonia.org.uk

Geri

Is Scotland in charge of its own resources? No.
Is Scotland in charge of its own immigration? No.
Is Scotland in possession of a military & foreign policy? No.
Can Scotland hold a referendum to leave? No.
Can Scotland stop inwards migration? No.
Does Scotland have a parliament? No.

It’s not fcking rocket science we are a colony.

Dictionary:

1. A country or area under the full or partial political control of another country and occupied by settlers from that country.

You going to argue with a dictionary now, ya eejit.

Geri

Is Scotland in charge of its own resources? No.
Is Scotland in charge of its own immigration? No.
Is Scotland in possession of a military & a foreign policy? No.
Can Scotland hold a referendum to leave? No.
Can Scotland stop inwards migration? No.
Does Scotland have a parliament? No.

It’s not fcking rocket science we are a colony.

Dictionary:

1. A country or area under the full or partial political control of another country and occupied by s*ttlers from that country.

You going to argue with a dictionary now, ya eejit.

James

An English friend of mine who has lived in France for 25+ years and has been a French citizen for 10+ years informs me that while he gets to vote in local elections etc he would be excluded (and always will be) in any constitutional type referendum such as the dodgy one that Scotland was ‘allowed’ in 2014. He has no problem with that. Just saying, like.

Maybe our resident expert should get in touch and inform my friend that this is an outrage, and those French nativists should be forced to allow any and all incomers a say in the future of France, even if they’re there temporarily, have just arrived or just own a holiday home there?

sam

Here is the Abstract to one of MacKinnon’s published research.

“This article employs a new approach to studying internal colonialism in northern Scotland during the 18th and 19th centuries. A common approach to examining internal colonial situations within modern state territories is to compare characteristics of the internal colonial situation with attested attributes of external colonial relations. Although this article does not reject the comparative approach, it seeks to avoid criticisms that this approach can be misleading by demonstrating that promoters and managers of projects involving land use change, territorial dispossession and industrial development in the late modern Gàidhealtachd consistently conceived of their work as projects of colonization. It further argues that the new social, cultural and political structures these projects imposed on the area’s indigenous population correspond to those found in other colonial situations, and that racist and racialist attitudes towards Gaels of the time are typical of those in colonial situations during the period. The article concludes that the late modern Gàidhealtachd has been a site of internal colonization where the relationship of domination between colonizer and colonized is complex, longstanding and occurring within the imperial state. In doing so it demonstrates that the history and present of the Gaels of Scotland belongs within the ambit of an emerging indigenous research paradigm.”

link to pure.coventry.ac.uk

Southernbystander

I agree with Ruby. The hysteria over the goings on in the Commons the other day is off the scale. I have to hand it to the SNP though, they have weaponised a terrible conflict in the middle east in order to orientate sympathy and focus on to themselves and terribly hard done to Scotland. Other parties played their supporting roles very well too, their focus equally on themselves and their motivations, venal. All deserve Oscar nominations.

Meanwhile the horror in Gaza continues and most of the population in the UK have zero interest in the goings on the HoC on the matter (yes really, the frothing about it in certain incestuous circles is not replicated outside those very small bubbles), and rightly so: what happened there was nothing to do with Gaza which people *do* actually care about. The cartoon is very apt.

Johnlm

@DoRothyDevine
Sorry for the typo Dorothy (and also Hatuey several days ago)

I don’t have a TV but watched a trailer. So other than that I can’t comment other than to say it seems to be a drama re-enactment.
Three days before lockdown the HCID were saying that this was not a serious event.
link to gov.uk
They seem to be writing this into the narrative now as some sort of ‘mistake’.

There were numerous numerous examples of Tic Tok nurses dancing and of people walking round empty hospitals, now largely censored on YouTube.
Some people filming empty hospitals were actually visited by the cops!

Was there something other than a mistreated flu? I cannot say; some, apparently reliable, doctors were talking of something which looked like altitude sickness.
They were told by the ONS to record all flu like symptoms as C*vid as there were no tests for C*vid at the time. ( or since?)
There were no excess deaths in 2020, other than the months when they shut the hospitals and when they started jabbing people.
When flu season arrived, furlough, decreased numbers of beds, and bed blocking all created a crisis.
link to nrscotland.gov.uk

Rachel Clarke may have a political axe to grind regarding a bigger salary regarding the junior doctors new contract campaign.
More importantly she is a palliative care doctor who maybe has questions to answer regarding the treatment of patients in care homes.

Now, can we please get get back to Ellis telling about how he is not bothered with following the rugby team.

Geri

As for the franchise..no reason it should be different from the UK.

15 years+

If people have lived here that long then they are obviously staying.

If they haven’t then there is absolutely no control over them being bussed in especially, a short let, & then piss off home once the vote is over.

Same with EU citizens. They have their own independent country to return to should they have a craven wish to start amending constitutions & Sovereignty. Nothing stopping them from starting on their own.

I dunno what kind of person you have to be to take part in another countries referendums. It’s not normal & is wide open to abuse. Hence why there are rules on residency.

Ruby

Mornin James

Ah the French what are they like?

They might eat frogs, snails & horses but they certainly know how to protest.

I wonder if what we need is a good old Revolution.

link to archive.is

Protesters were kept well away from the president, but their chants and whistles were audible when he visited Oreillette, a cow from Normandy, who was chosen as the star of the show’s 60th edition.

Mia

“from full on blood and soil nativism insisting only those born here be enfranchised, to various shades of residency requirements ranging from 2 to 20 years”

Please explain exactly in what way any of those requirements you are poo pooing over depart from those of any other independent state in the world (that is not overtly or covertly subjugated to the UK, that is), when it comes to constitutional matters.

Please explain exactly how those requirements depart from those stipulated by the UK government itself during the EU referendum.

Please explain in what way those requirements depart from those of constitutional referendums for Gibraltar with regards to the Spanish people, that can vote in those referendums.

Please explain in what way those requirements depart from those of constitutional referendums for “Las Malvinas” with regards to the Argentinian people who can vote in those referendums.

You appear to be a fervent supporter of Israel and USA. Well then, please explain how any of the requirements above depart from the requirement in Israel or USA for somebody to become a citizen and being able to cast a vote in constitutional matters.

Let me help you:

In Israel:
“The right to vote in the Israeli elections is reserved for Israeli citizens who are 18 years or older and whose name is registered in the voters’ registry. People whose legal status at the time of the elections is only that of a permanent resident do not have the right to vote. Likewise, Israeli citizens staying abroad will not be able to vote, aside from the exceptional cases of civil servants and their families, who can vote in Israeli embassies and consulates abroad”
(From Decker, M (2022) “Who has the right to vote in the Israeli elections? (Legal Guide)”

In the case of USA:
Non-citizens, including permanent legal residents, cannot vote in federal, state, and most local elections.
U.S. citizens residing in U.S. territories cannot vote for president in the general election.
(From USA gov (2024), “Who can and cannot vote”)

You can leave out the example of the Quebec referendum. We all know it was as big a stitch up as it was Scotland’s indy referendum from 2014, both with an exceptionally open franchise designed to frustrate the right to self-determination of the natives.

To confirm this, both, in Scotland and Quebec, the pro-independence vote of the natives was frustrated by the vote from the incomers. You appear determined to force us to close our eyes to that rather crucial piece of evidence.

You have been told this many, many, many times in these threads by many different contributors. I distinctly remember writing about this several times now in response to your obstinate determination to dishing indiscriminate insults to others who hold a different opinion to yours.

All this, of course, while those with a different opinion to yours kept providing credible arguments and evidence to sustain their stance, whereas you, time and time again, simply refused, like now, to provide a single credible argument or supporting evidence to defend your position, other than resourcing to faux arrogance and appealing to emotional blackmailing through insults.

“In what way am I being inconsistent or hypocritical?”

Goodness, in what way you are not?
You are ignoring the default rule for constitutional referendums in the ENTIRE WORLD, including the UK itself, its dominions, even your beloved Israel and USA.

This can only be either because of your own ignorance or because you wish the Scottish natives to remain ignorant so their right to self-determination can continue to be frustrated. It is obvious this suit your particular needs, whatever those may be, rather than those of Scotland or the Scottish people.

I distinctly remember how in many occasions you have attempted to sell here that you are a pro-independence supporter. Yet, at the minimum hint that a franchise for indyref should follow the default guidelines of every independent state in the world, even UK dominions, you immediately throw the toys out of the pram and switch on the emotional blackmail mode, even on occasion going as far as claiming that you would stop supporting independence if the franchise changed.

That does not present you as a credible pro-independence supporter at all, and rather suggests you are not one but instead you have an agenda linked to the imposition of a demonstrably rigged franchise, which has now seen both Scotland’s and Quebec’s natives denied their right to self-determination despite a majority of them voting for independence.

You NEVER provide a sound or credible argument to support your stance. The only thing you do is to dish out blanket insults to either deflect from the real reasons you are so keen on the imposition of a knowingly rigged franchise, to deflect from the real reasons behind your unfair and self-serving demands to impose a knowingly rigged franchise on the Scottish people or to silence those who hold a diametrically opposite opinion to yours and who, by the way, and differently to you, have provided multiple times arguments and evidence to support their position.

By the way, only somebody rather slow and with rather poor peripheral vision and critical thinking skills could ever suggest that not knowing the actual demographic distribution of the population, in particular how high a proportion of the total population the non-natives represent, is irrelevant for something as constitutionally crucial as an independence referendum.

If somebody attempts to impose a rigged franchise while at the same time seeks to pull the wool over the natives’ eyes by hiding the importance of how the number of non-natives that rigged franchise would be inviting to vote could frustrate the native’s vote, it becomes obvious even to a child that they are pursuing a parallel agenda which does not include granting the natives their right to self-determination.

P.S.You have often complained about the length of my comments. If you find difficult to read this comment because it is too long for your attention span to keep up or for your grey cells to process in one go without going into melt down, just shout for help. I can divide it up in baby bite-sizes for you, so you can digest it a wee bit better.

Alf Baird

sam @ 1:25 pm

“internal colonialism in northern Scotland during the 18th and 19th centuries”

Hechter’s work demonstrated the ‘Celtic Periphery’ nations as a whole to be subject to internal colonialism procedures. Which helps explain why all three nations today have independence movements that depend on “the solidarity of the oppressed ethnic group” – i.e. Scots, Welsh and Irish.

Indigenous language deprivation is a feature in all instances. In Scotland both the Scots and Gaelic languages were/are important factors, these being two main indigenous groups/peoples of this land at the time of colonisation.

Republicofscotland

So the English PM gave a speech condemning anti-Semitism, whilst a Tory MP Lee Anderson, clearly expressed his Islamophobia.

Sunak even had the chutzpah to say:

“Our democracy cannot and must not bend to the threat of violence and intimidation or fall into polarised camps who hate each other.”

The UK a democracy don’t make me laugh.

Chas

If it is not already, ‘Wings’ is turning into a platform for torn, greetin faced old men and women to air their warped views. Apart from our Arab friend, I wonder how many posting here are younger than 50?

Breeks is suggesting that only the ethnically pure, with tartan blood coursing through their veins, should represent Scotland.
I seem to recall an Austrian painter and decorator who had similar views. Whatever happened to him?

Scotland, the UK, indeed the World has changed and will continue to so so. You could always try and embrace it-you won’t be able to change it. Of course, you could always come on here and moan constantly about something, anything.
Stop living in the past. I know it is difficult for most on here.
Look to the future.

Ruby

Oreillette La Vache Qui Rit?

She’s not looking too happy about being surrounded by riot police.

Cameron Robson

Does anybody study the First World War and the Near East? When Allenby entered Jerusalem in December 1917 his occupation of Jerusalem prevented the Ottoman Turks from putting into operation a plan to inflict genocide on all the Jews living in Jerusalem and the Holy Land. (The German advisor to the Turks, General Erich Ludendorff, had appealed to the Ottoman Turks to desist from their planned genocidal anti-semitic intentions – although it did not help the Syrians and Armenians. The hard pressed Jews regarded Allenby’s entry into Jerusalem as one of their greatest deliverances. Allenby had also saved that vital Allied artery, the Suez Canal, from Turko-Germanic conquest.

Geri

Mia

Excellent!

sam

@Chas

“Stop living in the past. I know it is difficult for most on here.
Look to the future.”

Self awareness? Zero.

“I seem to recall an Austrian painter and decorator who had similar views. Whatever happened to him?”

Stop living in the past.

“Breeks is suggesting that only the ethnically pure, with tartan blood coursing through their veins, should represent Scotland.”

Breeks can and will speak for himself. If he wants a Scottish team to be made up of Scots it is not racist.

You have neither self awareness nor logic

Geri

Chas

As ever missing the point entirely.

Scotland should be training & funding it’s own home grown talent. Starting with excellent sporting facilities you know, like the ones we built/funded for English.

How much tea & jam sales did those cost?

Johnlm

Laurens of Arabia remembered WW1.
It’s a pity that his manuscript went missing in Reading Station.

The rest is history.

Scot Finlayson

Norway , considered the most democratic country in the world,
only lets citizens vote in national elections,

Generally speaking, you will need to have had legal residency in Norway for at least seven years to be able to apply. You’ll also need to be at least partially fluent in the Norwegian language.

Blood and soil nativists ?

Chas

Sam

You have cut me to the bone. I do take some comfort in the fact that, at least, I am not thick. Unfortunately I am unable to say the same concerning your goodself but, of course, you are stapped foo of self awareness and logic.
Keep going with the colonialism pish. Baird will love you for it.

Ruby

James

The big difference between ourselves and the French is that there is such a thing as French nationality. Because Scotland is just a colony there is no such thing as Scottish nationality. As a matter of fact it would appear that there isn’t even a Scottish ethnicity any more.

Anybody can be Scottish just in the same way as anybody can be a woman.

I’m not going along with any of it.

Duhan van der Merwe is South African and transwomen are men.

There is no such thing as Scottish South African, Scottish Asian, Scottish English, Scottish African.

All these folk for the most part who call themselves Scottish Asian, Scottish English etc are British and their ethnicity is Asian, English, Chinese, South African or whatever.

In the event of Scotland becoming independent they will be Scottish (probably) but their ethnicity will stay the same.

That’s fine I don’t have a problem with that but I do have a problem with folk trying to erase my sexuality and my ethnicity.

To say I don’t have a problem with that isn’t exactly accurate in that I don’t think multi-culturalism works. I think it was forced on people whether they liked it or not. Any peep out of them they would be branded racist just in the same way a people are being called bigots & transphobes. As a result people just pretend. Anything for a quiet life.

If the multi-culturalism worked you would not have our British Asian first minister and his mate the British Asian Labour leader greetin’ continually about racism and screaming WHITE! WHITE! WHITE!

They think they’ve got problems with identity try being a British Scottish Woman.

Ruby

Chas
Ignored
says:
25 February, 2024 at 2:03 pm

If it is not already, ‘Wings’ is turning into a platform for torn, greetin faced old men and women to air their warped views. Apart from our Arab friend,

Which Arab friend are you talking about Chas?

Hatuey

Mia makes a forceful and compelling argument for looking at the franchise, but I disagree with making it.

I don’t see it happening. If we have a referendum, it’s likely to be on the very same terms as the last one.

Assuming it doesn’t happen, are the arguments for disenfranchising certain voters likely to help us win votes? Id say they are likely to cost us votes and in a zero sum game that’s a bad starting point.

If you absolutely knew the franchise wasn’t going to be changed, would you still make an argument for changing it?

Thats the overarching argument.

Johnlm

L4urens of OrabiA actually remembered WWI.

It’s a pity that his manooscript went missing in Reading Station in 1919.

The rest is history.

This comment went into moderation (twice) ???

Ruby

Chas
Ignored
says:
25 February, 2024 at 2:03 pm

If it is not already, ‘Wings’ is turning into a platform for torn, greetin faced old men and women to air their warped views. Apart from our Arab friend,

Be Warned Chas I am not going to let you get away with not answering this question.

Which Arab friend are you talking about Chas?

sam

@Chas

“I do take some comfort in the fact that, at least, I am not thick.”

If you’re thick enough how would you Know?

sam

“The Scottish Cringe as described by Beveridge and Turnbull (1989) refers to the Scots lacking personal and political confidence in their ability to govern themselves. Beveridge and Turnbull (1989) argue the Scots suffer from a sense of psychological inferiority in which Scots have come to see themselves and they are seen by England i.e. as being inferior to and dependent upon the largesse of England.”

Ruby

link to wingsoverscotland.com

Johnlm

It would be due to man*uscript.

Same would apply to the planet Urbumhole. 🙂

and every other word containing an*us

eg tetan*us etc etc

All due with the mis-spelling of the Christian name of Labour leader in Scotland.

Ruby

Which Arab friend are you talking about Chas?

The great thing about the internet is you can be any age you want.

I’m 21 years old today.

never mind that

Which Arab friend are you talking about Chas?

Mia

“Keep going with the colonialism pish”

You claim you are not thick. I have no reason whatsoever to question such assertion. But if you are not thick, then you are expected to understand this is a forum where most readers do not know who you are and, more importantly, do not know how much they can trust, if at all, what you write.

This isn’t the 18th century, where most of the population were illiterate and would take the word of the military, the wealthy, the aristocracy and politicians as gospel.

Now, it takes people under a minute to check if the evidence provided in a comment is trustworthy or not, and it takes them little more to find evidence of a counterargument if that exists.

This means that the only way you can make yourself trustworthy is by providing or directing those you wish to convince towards the evidence that supports your point.

In other words, you cannot simply make claims like “colonialism pish” in relation to Scotland and expect contributors to take your word for it unless you have provided enough evidence to support that point. You haven’t.

You mention Prof Baird. Well, you have a very long way to go until you reach the level of research and evidence Prof Baird has provided here to demonstrate Scotland is subjected to the toxic force of colonialism.

When you reach the point where you have been able to enrich the knowledge of visitors of this blog to a comparative level to the research and evidence Prof Baird has provided here and elsewhere, then you will be in a position to claim that “colonialism of Scotland is pish” without being laughed at. But until then, independently of how important you consider your word alone to be, you cannot.

Andy Ellis

@sam 1.03pm

I mentioned it because it has been discussed before, including with Alf Baird, that one of the reasons most people don’t accept the “Scotland as colony” schtick is that the UN does not have Scotland on it’s list of Non Selg-governing territories.

You need to disabuse yourself of the frankly rather weird view that just because you haven’t seen or heard of something being discussed here, you’re the first person to think about it, or continually greet about people bringing things up you don’t know about. You seem like the kind of person who could have an argument in an empty room.

If you haven’t read MacKinnon you can’t really object to my belief that Scotland has been internally colonised over centuries, with the approval of the English elite.

What’s your view of the Scottish Cringe and its origin?

That’s not how this works you utter roaster. You don’t get to insist people read some random link you’ve posted for some piece of evidence, book, or paper, then crow about the fact that because we haven’t read it our views are therefore objectively worth less than yours. What an odd way to conduct yourself.

I think the Scottish cringe is a bad thing. It’s origins are, I’m sure many and various, but I’m not sure you can make a direct correlation between the existence of such a cringe and an insistence that Scotland is therefore colonised.

Ruby

Which Arab friend are you talking about Chas?

Geri

Why on earth would a constitutnal vote upset incomers?

Ever wonder why Alba is going nowhere?

A repeat of the exact same franchise as 2014 is a mugs game & frankly people who wish Scotland to lose by immediately giving it a handicap before it even takes place.

Salmond is always banging on about Scots Sovereignty. That’s the people of Scotland. Not anyone else.
The Union is between Scotland & England.
A ref is on Scots constitution.
Not between Scotland, Welsh, Irish, I*saeli, Yankie, EU & everyone else who thinks they’ll have a meltdown cause they can’t vote.

If anyone outside needs a vote it should surely be Scots living abroad.

Ruby

I’m envisaging Mia as a special needs teacher trying hard to help Chas. 🙂

You need a lot of patience to be a special needs teacher

Which Arab friend are you talking about Chas?

Andy Ellis

@Geri 1.08

All of those things could be said about Bavaria: I’ve never heard any Bavarian – or indeed anyone else – make the case that Bavaria is a colony of Germany.

Also, you answered some of your own questions incorrectly.

Scotland can hold referendums, as 2014 demonstrates. It just can’t hold independence referendums unilaterally. If the British nationalist establishment won’t honour the Edinburgh Agreement precedent in future, it means we either have to accept that fact, change the devolutionary settlement such that the UK “repatriates” the right about when and how often we hold such referendums (which seems unlikely), or abandon the referendum route altogether and switch to plebiscitary elections. Pick one.

Also, Scotland does have a parliament. the fact it isn’t the parliament you like, and/or doesn’t have the powers you want it to have, or contain representatives with balls enough to force the pace on independence, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. A devolutionary parliament is still a parliament.

By your simplistic dictionary definition, England could claim to be a colony of Scotland.

You’re just not very good at this are you?

sam

@Andy Ellis

I still don’t see why you mention the UN when it is at the moment irrelevant to a debate as to scotland’s colonisation.

I wasn’t insisting that you read the MacKinnon research. I was saying that if you haven’t read the research you have no grounds to object to my views (based on that research) that Scotland has been internally colonised.

Why do you make stuff up?

Johnlm

Thanks Ruby. I think you are right.

I wonder if I can say that Andy Ellis, John Main and Chas are all ani?

Ani, being brown, Main has probably bleached his.

Geri

Don’t be stupid.

Scotland has an administration under direct rule via the Scotland Act. A “Scottish parliament” would have no such restrictions.

How could England claim it is a colony? They are in charge of everything.

You’re not very bright are you?

Mia

“If we have a referendum, it’s likely to be on the very same terms as the last one”

And the result is likely to be in the very same terms as the last one was: incomers who see Scotland as an extension of England will seek to frustrate the pro-independence vote of the natives.

At this moment in time, being it by incompetence or by design, we do not know the real proportion of non-natives, with no allegiance to Scotland whatsoever, that have been included in Scotland’s electoral census. In such circumstance, you can never claim credibly the referendum is an exercise in self-determination for Scotland. It is more likely to be an exercise to prevent self-determination of Scotland.

“If you absolutely knew the franchise wasn’t going to be changed, would you still make an argument for changing it?”

Of course. Silence is consent. If you do not make the argument for the change, then you are as much as accepting the situation as it is. I am not and never will. I am convinced the franchise of 2014 was a stitch up which prevented self-determination of the people of Scotland. It is an incredibly arrogant position to claim only those who chose this flawed franchise are right, while the rest of the world countries, which use for constitutional matters a different franchise than the one they use for local elections, are wrong.

If you absolutely knew (as we already know) that the current crop of MP gravy train raiders will never seriously pursue Scotland’s independence, never mind ending the union, would you still make an argument to change that situation by, for example, voting the useless self-serving wankers out, or would you just leave them to forever enjoy the comforts and perks of the green seats so they can continue laughing at us?

Change in politics, when having the benefit of the people rather than the ruling classes in mind, never comes spontaneously. You have to force it to happen. To me, that is the overarching argument.

Republicofscotland

As the likes of Niger, Burkina Faso and Mali decide to withdraw from the western controlled ECOWAS, ECOWAS has decided to drop all sanctions against Niger for ousting its colonial masters the French.

The Nigeriens began kicking out their colonial master on July 26th 2023, and they now have two oil refineries and fuel is cheaper than it was under colonial rule.

Andy Ellis

@Dan

An English friend of mine who has lived in France for 25+ years and has been a French citizen for 10+ years informs me that while he gets to vote in local elections etc he would be excluded (and always will be) in any constitutional type referendum such as the dodgy one that Scotland was ‘allowed’ in 2014. He has no problem with that. Just saying, like.

Maybe our resident expert should get in touch and inform my friend that this is an outrage, and those French nativists should be forced to allow any and all incomers a say in the future of France, even if they’re there temporarily, have just arrived or just own a holiday home there?

I’m typing this slowly in the probably forlorn hope that you and other hard of understanding nativists finally get it. France is an independent country. Scotland is not. France has citizens. Scotland does not. When Scotland becomes independent, it will be able to enforce citizenship criteria like all other independent nation states.

A self determination referendum held by some of the people of a larger state is not the same thing as e.g. a vote to change the constitution of France. Virtually every self determination referendum since 1945 has used broadly based residence criteria, often wider than than that used here in 2014.

I don’t know why your French friend is denied a vote if he has been granted citizenship: it seems odd that a full citizen would be denied the vote, unless there is some specific French law imposing an additional residence criteria (though if he’s been there 10+ years that also seems unlikely. I’m not an expert on the French franchise or electoral law however.

What you and other nativists here have to explain is why Scotland should uniquely amongst all the other peoples who have held self determination referendums, should use a non-standard franchise. None of you ever HAVE answered satisfactorily of course, because you have no other response but bigotry, woo-woo claims of Scottish exceptionalism, and afterwards abuse.

Same old. same old really.

Anthem

Andy Ellis. How long do you practice daily to compose such utter garbage?

Geri

Is Bavaria a country? Or a federal state?

Do they have their own economy or do they get pocket money from Germany?

You are always grasping. Trying desperately to compare Apples with Oranges & ending up with tatties.

Ruby

I’ll have to resort to asking Andy.

#Ask Andy

1. Which Arab friend is Chas talking about?
2. If Scotland isn’t a colony what is it?
3. Are there a lot of similarities between Scotland and Palestine?

I’m thinking about the treaty of the Union & the Balfour Agrement

Also the transfer of 6,000 square miles of Scottish sea to England in 1999

Confused

gary stevenson is a smart asa whip ex trader, who has worked on the inside, understands the markets and the economy; a cockney max keiser – worth a long listen

link to youtube.com

I see our minister for energy net zero and fluffy bunnies is going to have a baby, which is nice; looks about 19, is 31. A lawyer, worked at the battered wives home, political adviser, and yet – she would be the person to enter the room with people from JP Morgan and BlackRock, when an indy Scotland has to start cutting deals and laying down its laws, e.g. BlackRock owns our fucking ports and airports, and we need them back under our control – how you handle that needs skill. We also need our refinery back.

– gender balance and diversity hiring. Great. A pal of Nikki. At least Scotland won’t be defending its economic interests with a fucking white white white man, who is systemically racist.

I say we hire gary, this cockney boy, find him a scots granny or whatever and put him in charge. If you are going to bring in outsiders, bring in talent FFS, like south african rugby players, but not a mass migration of mediocrity and random trash. Gary probably wouldn’t give a shit about a vote, just pay him what he is worth.

anyway, give him a like and subscribe to his channel as it helps with the algorithm; seriously, it’s 90 minutes of quality, of “real things that matter” and its a guy from a poor background, who understands it all from the inside, telling you what is going on, in terms you understand …

Andy Ellis

@Geri 1.30pm

I dunno what kind of person you have to be to take part in another countries referendums. It’s not normal & is wide open to abuse. Hence why there are rules on residency.

The kind of person that has voted in dozens of self determination referendums around the world since 1945 Geri. It’s quite normal. There’s no evidence I’ve seen of any abuse. What nativists in here are really exercised about is non Scottish born people being allowed to participate, because they think on the basis of one study by Edinburgh University that non-native born voters were instrumental in delivering a No vote in 2014.

The problem, as pointed out before, is that using a different franchise is hugely problematic for a number of reasons. It’s not the norm for self determination referendums, it would turn a lot of supporters of by betraying civic nationalist values, and it would adversely impact on the chances of a vote for independence – particularly one which was close or contested – being recognised by other independent states and international organisations.

We’d end up like Northern Cyprus, Somaliland or Transnistria.

You not knowing these things is no excuse for not educating your self about the facts. you’re entitled to your own opinions, but not your own class of facts.

Republicofscotland

Re my 3.57pm comment.

There’s a lesson to be learned here, as we’re about to lose our only refinery the only way for Scotland to really prosper is for Scots to dump this union (colonial masters) for serious progression cannot be made without all the levers of government that a country needs.

What a power house African nations could be if they shook off their colonial masters, the west does well off the backs of African nations, England does pretty well off the backs of Scottish assets.

lets shake them off for good, down with the union.

Republicofscotland

What the hell is wrong with these people, is it mass cognitive dissonance, due to being brainwashed by their media and government, it has a 1930’s Germany feel about it.

“This is a shocking data point. The Israeli Democracy Institute released a survey this week showing that over 2/3 of Jewish Israelis – 68% that is – opposed “the transfer of humanitarian aid to Gaza residents at this time.”

It gets even worse – the survey lowered the bar to exclude any possible opposition to either UNRWA (which Israel has been inciting against) or the Hamas authorities (which Israel considers terrorists). To no avail. Over two-thirds still oppose humanitarian help “via international bodies that are not linked to Hamas or to UNRWA… A majority of Jewish respondents (68%) oppose the transfer of humanitarian aid even under these conditions,” the survey notes.”

link to mondoweiss.net

Johnlm

Please folks, don’t be rough to Chas.

Chas is special, he can smell independence marchers.
It’s probably a form of synesthesia.

A bit like Greta Thunberg can see CO2.
link to ananova.news

James Jones

James at 1:22 pm
“An English friend of mine…”

You’ve changed. Get out!

Elsewhere folk seem to be assessing how Scottish you have to be to qualify as Scottish. Not fully decked out in tartan? Incomer!

The ‘colonialism’ nonsense is entirely down to a selected interpretation rather than fact. Self-declared ‘academics’ telling us that this or that is such an example, always bad. I reject it as nonsense.

Geri

Ellis

“The kind of person that has voted in dozens of self determination referendums around the world since 1945 Geri. It’s quite normal. ”

Name them.

Mia

“England could claim to be a colony of Scotland”

In a parallel dimension, perhaps. Certainly not in this one.

One of the most obvious signs of active colonialism is the suppression of the natives’ language and imposition of the colonial one.

Take a look at England’s parliament: when has the English language ever been suppressed by Scottish Gaelic or Scots? Never.

Now take a look at Scotland’s parliament. How often do you hear Scotland’s own MPs speaking Gaelic or Scots?

Was there a single time when Scottish Gaelic or Scots was ever used as a recognised language in the parliament of the United Kingdom? Nope. In fact, some arrogant England MPs heavily criticised SNP MPs when they had the audacity to use their MOTHER LANGUAGE, in that cesspit.

Let’s look now at universities. How much Scottish Gaelic or Scots do you hear being used in England’s universities? Now look at Scotland. How much? Actually, what is the proportion of people with Scottish accent among positions of power in Scotland? And in England? What about the proportion of people with English accent?

Let’s now look at public services like the NHS. What is the proportion of Scottish natives in positions of power in the NHS in Scotland? And in England? How about England’s natives? How do the percentages compare?

Let’s now look at schools. In how many schools in Scotland, never mind the UK, is Scottish Gaelic or Scots being taught as main language? How many classes are being taught in other language that is not English?

Now take a look at the positions of power in the UK government, Scotland’s government and England’s government. What is the proportion of Scotland’s natives in the positions of power? What is the proportion of England’s natives in those positions? What is the proportion of MPs elected by the people of Scotland holding a ministry with portfolio?

Now let’s take a look at the resources. Who is the main beneficiary of the revenues generated by Scotland’s resources? Whose territorial waters were stolen so the other country could claim the other’s oil and gas fields as its own?
How much of the revenues obtained from the fire-sale of Scotland’s assets are kept in Scotland and how much of those are going down to England?

The suggestion that England could ever credibly claim it is a Scottish colony is laughable.

Geri

*It’s not the norm for self determination referendums, it would turn a lot of supporters of by betraying civic nationalist values, and it would adversely impact on the chances of a vote for independence – particularly one which was close or contested – being recognised by other independent states and international organisations. *

What a crock of horseshit.

Scotland is a country. Not a *region* wishing to leave the mother ship.

It’s a trading union, ya dullard. & Countries leave those any time they like. They don’t need permission. They don’t need imaginary new rules & they don’t particularly need the international community either.

You are not an independence supporter.
You don’t recognise Scotland as a sovereign nation.
You don’t seem to even know what Sovereignty means. It means a country can do what the fck it likes without constant*outside* harpies telling them where they’re going wrong in the world.

Get yerself back to England.

Hatuey

Mia, you didn’t answer. If you absolutely knew the franchise was going be the same as it was in 2014, would you still make the argument for changing it and run the risk of further alienating even more people?

I’m inclined to think it would be rational to drop the issue once you knew that the franchise would be the same, and instead argue for independence.

You could just as easily argue that women and older people cost us in 2014, not “new Scots”.

Andy Ellis

@Mia 1.55pm

You appear to be arguing, as is your wont, not only in bad faith but at agonising length.

I’ve explained over and over again that the franchises used by already independent states to allow existing citizens to vote in constitutional referendums are NOT THE SAME thing as the franchises used for self determination referendums. The constant repetition that no other country would allow the same franchise as we used in 2014 is a simple category error. In the case of many of the usual suspects here, it’s a simple lie, because it’s been explained over and over again.

From what I can see, any British citizen in Gibraltar who has been resident for 6 months can vote in their elections.

I’m not a fervent supporter of either Israel or the USA: that just the kind of thing hard of thinking people say when they have no real counter arguments. Neither Israel or the USA are valid comparators, because you’re not discussing self determination votes, so the franchises there are irrelevant. Pure distraction on your part.

You try to marshal Quebec in support of you flawed analysis, but present no evidence. Show us the evidence that either or both referendums were skewed.

This can only be either because of your own ignorance or because you wish the Scottish natives to remain ignorant so their right to self-determination can continue to be frustrated. It is obvious this suit your particular needs, whatever those may be, rather than those of Scotland or the Scottish people.

The ignorance here is yours, not mine. Worse in fact, it’s not ignorance it’s just bare faced lying, because you know full well that you’re not comparing like with like. Self determination votes use different franchises from constitutional votes in already independent countries. You being ignorant of that, or refusing to recognise it, doesn’t change the fact. Your analysis is either flawed, or just dishonest – as well as excruciatingly over long as per usual.

You NEVER provide a sound or credible argument to support your stance.

Another flagrant untruth. You just can’t help yourself can you? I’ve provided the evidence over many months, ever since the initial twitter fisking of what a rubbish idea franchise restriction was by Rev Stu ages ago. I still have that twitter thread copied and roll it out regularly because I know how much it enrages nativists to see their dearly held belief being so utterly destroyed by someone they otherwise can’t get enough of. Apparently this time he’s wrong. Yeah, right.

I’m not the only one who has an issue with your verbal diarrhoea: using 10 words where 1 will do, and over lengthy posts don’t help what passes for your analysis when its already laughably weak, ill argued or simply flat out untruth.

Geri

“What the hell is wrong with these people”

Indoctrination since birth.
Military indoctrination compulsory.

= Ingrained hatred.

Republicofscotland

Well the month is up tomorrow.

“In a historic interim judgment, the UN court in The Hague told Israel it must “take all measures within its power” to desist from killing Palestinians in contravention of the genocide convention, and to prevent and punish the incitement of genocide and facilitate the provision of “urgent basic services”. But the ruling stopped short of ordering a ceasefire to the war in Gaza.

After Friday’s ruling, attention turned to whether Israel would comply with the order – given that the court has no enforcement powers – and what pressure its diplomatic and military backers would bring to bear on it to do so.”

Has Israel did everything in its power to prevent civilian deaths? Has it f*ck, the ICJ MUST call for an immediate ceasefire and begin a case against those that have perpetrated and helped perpetrate genocide against the oppressed Palestinians.

Mia

“It’s quite normal”

No, it isn’t. Scotland’s aberrant franchise of 2014 is the exception, not the rule.

If you look at the rules of world countries, to vote in constitutional referendums you have to be a citizen of the country. This means that, to vote in “many” self-determination referendums around the world as you claim, you need to hold “many” citizenships simultaneously or take new citizenships and ditching old ones continuously. That is not “quite normal”. That is totally abnormal.

Many countries do not allow you to have dual or multiple citizenship. Other countries do not allow you to become an MP if you have multiple citizenship. Other countries make you ditch the other citizenship if you are to become an MP or diplomatic representing the country.

So the situation of a single person taking part in “dozens” of self-determination referendums around the world since 1945 is not quite normal at all. It is in fact most abnormal.

Andy Ellis

@Scot Finlayson 2.46pm

Norway , considered the most democratic country in the world,
only lets citizens vote in national elections,

Generally speaking, you will need to have had legal residency in Norway for at least seven years to be able to apply. You’ll also need to be at least partially fluent in the Norwegian language.

Blood and soil nativists ?

No, just an already independent state who had the balls to vote for their independence by a margin of 99.95% in favour to 0.05% opposed.

The franchise used for constitutional votes or other elections in already independent countries is based on established citizenship criteria.

Peoples seeking self determination don’t have citizens, because they aren’t independent states. The overwhelming number of self determination referendums since 1945 have used open, residence based criteria, often broader than those used here in 2014.

Which part of this apples versus oranges situation are you finding hard to understand?

Andy Ellis

@sam 3.51 pm

I still don’t see why you mention the UN when it is at the moment irrelevant to a debate as to scotland’s colonisation.

I wasn’t insisting that you read the MacKinnon research. I was saying that if you haven’t read the research you have no grounds to object to my views (based on that research) that Scotland has been internally colonised.

Why do you make stuff up?

I mention the UN because it is pertinent to do so. If Scotland were a bona fide colony and accepted as such by the international community, it would be on their list of non self governing territories, which have to be reported on to the General Assembly at regular intervals. The Falklands and Gibraltar are both on the list. Scotland is not.

If Scotland WERE on the list, and accepted as qualifying for colonial status, it would in some ways make our path to independence easier, as we’d be able to get support from others for being treated as a special case.

Many in the international community (particularly states with ethnic issues and separatist movements of their own) simply refuse to accept that peoples like Scotland, Catalonia or Quebec are even entitled to self determination, because the “old school” view in international relations and international law was that the right to self determination applied SOLELY to colonies, not places like Scotland.

I’m not making things up. You’re just being ridiculous. I’m perfectly at liberty to take exception to anyone’s views that Scotland is a colony. I think the argument is entirely without merit. The fact I haven’t read one random piece of research allows you to infer nothing at all.

Mia

“The franchise used for constitutional votes or other elections in already independent countries is based on established citizenship criteria”

There is nothing, nothing stopping Scotland to establish its own citizenship criteria. Las Malvinas and Gibraltar have their own citizenship criteria and they are not independent territories, nor they are united to England with an international treaty like Scotland is.

In fact, one wonders what on earth the SNP has been waiting for during the last almost 20 years when they have been in power to establish Scotland’s citizenship criteria.

Scotland is not a region. The only legal document that preserves its union with England is the treaty of union, a treaty that Scotland can lawfully and unilaterally revoke at any time of its choosing.

Geri

Scotland was voting to return to being fully independent.

Not voting for a brand new idea. A breakaway *region*

England has zero control over Scotland in law. Your problem is you think Scotland is subordinate & needs permission. It doesn’t. It doesn’t even need to hold a referendum or even a vote at all. After all, none was ever held to even entertain it eh?

It’s a trading union. That’s all it is.

Ruby

Confused
Ignored
says:
25 February, 2024 at 4:05 pm

I see our minister for energy net zero and fluffy bunnies is going to have a baby, which is nice; looks about 19, is 31. A lawyer, worked at the battered wives home, political adviser, and yet – she would be the person to enter the room with people from JP Morgan and BlackRock, when an indy Scotland has to start cutting deals and laying down its laws, e.g. BlackRock owns our fucking ports and airports, and we need them back under our control – how you handle that needs skill. We also need our refinery back.

I don’t know if you meant that to be funny but it cracked me up.

Yes it cracked me up but at the same time it made me cry.

Is that maybe what you would call a tragicomedy?

I worked for a short time in a merchant bank in the City. (City of London) It was great.
I met a fair number of traders. These guys were so sharp and so funny I would be happy to employ any one of them. I don’t think the lady with the baby & fluffy bunny would stand a chance against these guys.

I will definitely watch the video later although just from your description I would say it’s a very good idea to replace the lady with the baby & fluffy bunny. 🙂

Andy Ellis

@Geri 4.24 pm

1. Quebec 1980: All Canadian citizens residing in Quebec.

2. Quebec 1995: All Canadian citizens residing in Quebec.

3. Slovenia 1990: All Slovenian citizens (deemed to be all holders of Yugoslav internal citizenship cards resident in Slovenia, irrespective of birthplace or nationality).

4. Lithuania 1991: Nationals of Lithuania, including those resident before the USSR invasion of 1940 & their descendants, plus any Soviet citizens resident in Lithuania who renounced Soviet nationality. Soviet soldiers in Lithuania were excluded.

5. Estonia 1991: All residents with a permanent Soviet resident card in Estonia in 1991. (i.e. including all USSR citizens planted there since 1945).

6. Latvia 1991: All residents with a permanent Soviet resident card in Estonia in 1991. (i.e. including all USSR citizens planted there since 1945).

7. Macedonia 1991: All Macedonian citizens (deemed to be all holders of Yugoslav internal citizenship cards resident in Macedonia, irrespective of birthplace or nationality). Qualifying citizens abroad could vote.

8. Ukraine 1991: All residents of Ukraine. Soviet soldiers stationed in Ukraine were allowed to vote.

9. Bosnia & Hercegovina 1992: Yugoslav citizens who had established permanent residency in B&H.

10. East Timor 1999: those born in East Timor. Anyone not born there but with a parent who was born there. Individuals whose spouse was born in East Timor or whose parent-in-law was born in East Timor.

11. Montenegro 2006: Individuals with a minimum 24-month residency and nationality of the Serb-Montenegrin state.

12. South Sudan 2011: All permanent residents of South Sudan or those whose parents or grandparents were permanent residents since 1956.

13. Scotland 2014: Residents in Scotland with British nationality, or Commonwealth or EU nationality.

14. Catalonia 2014: Residents in Catalonia with Spanish nationality, EU nationality, EEA nationality or Swiss nationality.

Happy to help. 🙂

Johnlm

Ellis is a member of ALBA apparently.

Main was.a teacher apparently.

Hahahahaha! They crack me up!

Geri

Mia

“So the situation of a single person taking part in “dozens” of self-determination referendums around the world since 1945 is not quite normal at all. It is in fact most abnormal.”

Sounds fraudulent to me. Must be one of those Britnats tricks where you move military around the world to interfere in elections.

Andy Ellis

@Geri 4.24 pm

1. Quebec 1980: All Canadian citizens residing in Quebec.

2. Quebec 1995: All Canadian citizens residing in Quebec.

3. Slovenia 1990: All Slovenian citizens (deemed to be all holders of Yugoslav internal citizenship cards resident in Slovenia, irrespective of birthplace or nationality).

4. Lithuania 1991: Nationals of Lithuania, including those resident before the USSR invasion of 1940 & their descendants, plus any Soviet citizens resident in Lithuania who renounced Soviet nationality. Soviet soldiers in Lithuania were excluded.

5. Estonia 1991: All residents with a permanent Soviet resident card in Estonia in 1991. (i.e. including all USSR citizens planted there since 1945).

6. Latvia 1991: All residents with a permanent Soviet resident card in Estonia in 1991. (i.e. including all USSR citizens planted there since 1945).

7. Macedonia 1991: All Macedonian citizens (deemed to be all holders of Yugoslav internal citizenship cards resident in Macedonia, irrespective of birthplace or nationality). Qualifying citizens abroad could vote.

8. Country 404 1991: All residents of Country 404. Soviet soldiers stationed in Country 404 were allowed to vote.

9. Bosnia & Hercegovina 1992: Yugoslav citizens who had established permanent residency in B&H.

10. East Timor 1999: those born in East Timor. Anyone not born there but with a parent who was born there. Individuals whose spouse was born in East Timor or whose parent-in-law was born in East Timor.

11. Montenegro 2006: Individuals with a minimum 24-month residency and nationality of the Serb-Montenegrin state.

12. South Sudan 2011: All permanent residents of South Sudan or those whose parents or grandparents were permanent residents since 1956.

13. Scotland 2014: Residents in Scotland with British nationality, or Commonwealth or EU nationality.

14. Catalonia 2014: Residents in Catalonia with Spanish nationality, EU nationality, EEA nationality or Swiss nationality.

Geri

Ellis

Scotland is already an independent state.

It’s in a trading union.

It’s territory & Sovereignty were never extinguished. Ever.

What part are you struggling with?

Andy Ellis

@Mia 4.56pm

There is nothing, nothing stopping Scotland to establish its own citizenship criteria. Las Malvinas and Gibraltar have their own citizenship criteria and they are not independent territories, nor they are united to England with an international treaty like Scotland is.

So persuade one of the pro independence parties to make it so. The Catalans put together specific voter registration lists for their referendum. Mind you, they also allowed the facility for Catalans abroad to vote, which would probably horrify a’ the nativist carpet biters here, because it’s not that likely that most of the roughly 800,000 Scots living in the rest of the UK are rampant nationalists.

Nowt to stop the Scottish government pushing the boundaries of the devolutioary settlement a lot more than it has, whether on putative citizenship criteria, drugs policy, a tax & NI register just for Scotland, or anything else they can dream up.

Oneliner

The genocide of the Jewish people resulted in a highly proactive Anti-Semitism lobby. The genocide of the Scottish Highlanders and Gaels resulted in the Scottish Cringe. The difference (apart from the scale of deaths and totalitarianism) is that Scotland is colonised, Israel is not.

Indeed, so proactive is the propaganda machine of the former, that the genocide of Gazans is ‘Israel’s right to defend itself.

Ruby

link to wingsoverscotland.com

Anthem

It’s all copy and paste.

Colloquially know as SSDD.

Check back to the ‘old days’ if you don’t believe me.

Old days? #Ask Andy?

Dan

For those wondering about the origin and mysterious appearance of Badger on wings…

link to wingsoverscotland.com

#AskAndy

Do these often used lines hold any merit?

“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

What’s the frequency, Andy? Is your Benzedrine uh-huh…

Geri

Confused

I’m already a subscriber but I stopped watching Novara Media over the trans bullshit.

I’ve seen that interview. “We don’t give change around here” lol. He is a class act.

Johnlm

Pity that the Canadians refused to check the 86 000 rejected votes in the Quebec 1995 referendum, which was won by 54 000 votes.
The ballots were destroyed in 2007.

Johnlm

Close polls are actually good for those in power.
It allows them to shave votes for themselves, swinging results without arousing too much suspicion.

Easier in electronic and postal systems; more workers needed for paper ballots, obvs.

Anthem

Andy Ellis @3.59pm. Scotland will always be a nation. In fact, it was a nation before England even existed. So away wi ye!

Alf Baird

Geri @ 4:03 pm

“Is Bavaria a country? Or a federal state?”

Interesting thing about the German Federation is that individual states have some treaty making powers. Each state is also responsible for media regulation in that state, and much else too.

So much for Gordon Broon’s ‘Holyrood is the most powerful devolved parliament in the world’ nonsense, another colonial myth.

John Main

Chas

Adolf was never a painter and decorator.

He dabbled in architecture and liked to paint studies of buildings of architectural merit. From memory, he used watercolours.

It’s a trivial point, but heck, every fact helps to counter the sense that Scotland has slipped a long way from our nation’s enlightenment ideals that the casual reader of Wings BTL will develop when reading the average comment.

Andy Ellis

@Geri 5.06pm

Independent states have seats at the UN, representation in international agencies, armed forces, diplomatic services, their own currencies and central banks and their own heads of state. The sovereignty of the independent state ended with the Treaties of Union. Its territories are part of that union.

We can end that union. All we need to do is arrange a majority to put an X on a ballot paper. Nothing less will do.

Mia

“So persuade one of the pro independence parties to make it so”

For this to be successful, the entity to be approached has to be committed to deliver independence, committed to Scotland’s popular sovereignty and committed to end the union. At this moment in time, I am not 100% convinced any of the current political parties are the three things simultaneously, to be honest. I have much more hopes for entities like SALVO or the Scottish Liberation Movement.

“The Catalans put together….. Mind you, they also allowed the facility for Catalans abroad to vote”

Which is not uncommon. The UK limited the residence out of the UK to 15 years for the EU referendum. I have no problem with that whatsoever.

By the way, your beloved Israel does not indiscriminately allow the vote to those living out of Israel either, only in some limited exceptions, particularly due to work reasons. Examples are civil servants (including IDF soldiers), Jewish National Fund (JNF) employees, World Zionist Organization employees and Jewish Agency employees.

In Australia, if you are living overseas, you can only vote in Australian elections if you have been abroad for less than 6 years. It is 3 years for New Zealand. So, would you consider those in Israel, Australia and New Zealand also “nativist carpet biters!” too for refusing the vote to citizens living abroad beyond those rather small time limits, or your insult exclusively applies to the people in Scotland?

“Nowt to stop the Scottish government pushing the boundaries of the devolutioary settlement a lot more than it has”

Absolutely. Totally agree with you on that. There has been nothing, other than their own self-interest in preserving the union and their salaries, preventing MSPs and MPs not only from pushing the boundaries of devolution outwards, but actually getting rid of those boundaries altogether by ditching the Scotland Act and ending the treaty of union.

It is beyond appalling that after 3 consecutive absolute majorities of anti-union MPs since 2015 and 2 anti-union majorities of MSPs since 2016, these incompetents have not been able/have refused to bring back home a single additional Scottish power. In fact, they lost us quite a few. This is a symptom that none of the political parties currently in Holyrood recognise Scotland’s popular sovereignty, are committed to independence or to end the union.

Andy Ellis

@Johnlm 5.02pm

Ellis is a member of ALBA apparently.

Nothing apparent about it John: got the membership card, Founder Member badge an’ everything. Facts, eh?

John Main

Oneliner says

“genocide of Gazans”

I guess if people are going to insist that what is happening is genocide, it can at least be pointed out that it’s the slowest and least efficient genocide in the history of genocide.

March 10 is when the next phase of the war kicks off. Sporting of Israel to have given Hamas plenty of notice to come out with their hands up, bringing the 101 still living hostages with them. I wonder if Hamas have any friends? Friendly advice would be to get it over sooner rather than later.

Maybes Hamas intend to fight to the last Palestinian?

That’s another aspect of this genocide that makes it different from all other genocides in previous history. It can be stopped at any time by some clearly defined and well