The unwritten law
This piece just appeared in a little corner of the Scottish Sun:
Kudos to the paper for raising the issue of the No camp’s incredible, almost Stalinist levels of censorship, known well to those inside the debate but only measured thanks to the diligent work of the Facebook group “Silenced by Better Together”.
We know the accusations are true because we’ve experienced it first-hand. Without ever posting anything abusive or offensive, we got ourselves deleted and blocked by BT within hours of first posting there, and we’ve seen countless examples of completely innocuous posts being removed and their authors blocked.
We do have one quick question, though.
As you can see, the No camp’s unnamed spokesman responded to the allegations by asserting that people are only subjected to such sanctions “if they break rules”. Does anyone know where we can find these rules?
We’ve scoured the site. There’s nothing on the About page laying out acceptable and unacceptable behaviour. The only Note attached to the page is solely concerned with the activities of “Better Together” supporters when out canvassing the public, nothing about non-activists commenting on the Facebook page. There’s nothing to be found on the main BT website either.
We know Blair McDougall reads this site regularly, so maybe he can tell us. Where are the “rules”, Blair? How can people follow them if they don’t know what they are?
Rule 1. Just say no.
Rule 2. Don’t’ check facts.
Rule 3. Gie us y’money.
The rules are in their heads along with various other beings.
I have never been able to comment on their page but get their emails begging for money on a regular basis
There will hardly be an online Yes campaigner who has not experienced at first hand the quite blatant censorship on the official Better Together Facebook page and other anti-independence sites. We all have our stories to tell.
Like most online independence activists of my acquaintance I have been blocked by Better Together. They will doubtless claim that this was because I broke some rule. But, as Stu points out, I have no way of knowing what these rules are and was never advised of having breached them.
While I am perfectly capable of engaging in robust debate, I was always careful when commenting on the Better Together Facebook page not to give the slightest excuse for objecting to my comments on any of the usual grounds. If their admins claim that I was abusive or used offensive language then they are lying. Why would I present them with such a gift?
As far as I can determine the incident which occasioned my being blocked was also a good example of the censorship referred to. Someone had posted an image – they called it an infographic, but I pointed out that it did not qualify as such because it contained no information – which featured a claim about SNP defence policy which was completely false.
Using quotes from official sources and links to various documents I demonstrated beyond any possible doubt that the claim was untrue. I invited those defending the claim to provide evidence of their own. They declined to do so. After a fairly lengthy exchange, the entire discussion suddenly disappeared. A few moments later, the image with the blatant lie reappeared, minus all the comments challenging its veracity.
That is how Better Together operates. The entire organisation is corrupt and dishonest.
I got banned over a year ago also – shocking!
Free speech in the UK – My Arse!
Government ministers that won’t take questions???
I was barred for including a link to published article about Ian Taylor and suggesting caution regarding donors. BT was suffering paranoia on Taylor’s donation.
Alistair Darling reportedly met with Taylor, but the agenda and content of the discussion has never been revealed.
I think most of us have banned from Better Together. I made about half a dozen posts before I was ejected. They really struggle with any form of coherent argument against their position.
I was banned 4 (or 5?) times with different Facebook accounts last year. I was always courteous and never included links or anything that might justify deletion. The only rule I broke was the one that says “any posts containing opinions different to Better Together will be deleted and the culprit banned for life.”
Anyone who doesn’t believe this should have a go themselves and see what happens. Which is what the Sun reporter should have done: it doesn’t take long, usually 24 hours. There is usually a big cull on Monday mornings as they don’t seem to delete over the weekend.
I gave up eventually. It is a horrible place, really soul destroying and populated by some very unpleasant people. I’m sure some are on the BT payroll, they are there 24/7 yet claim to be employed. How does that work? I expect a few are from SLab HQ. (Fifi/Admiral Sturgeon?)
When Blair McDougall thinks about rules for his No to Scotland facebook page, does he hear an echo in his head?
Just seen Darling on the Sunday Politics program. Practically foaming at the mouth. At one point, I thought he was going to start snarling.
Still bloody annoyed though. Not one question to him about extra powers, UK pulling out of EU, Scotland CAN and WILL use Sterling if it wants…
…it’s just the same nonsense of ‘let’s discuss the SNP’s (rather than Yes’s) proposals.
What a surprise. And which other giant vote NO Scotland campaign outfit also blocks all YES vote opinion online? The BBC in Scotland.
Peter A. Bell
You’re right there, Pete. Any discussing on that site, and the minute you questioning anything …anything! Then your comments start to disappear or it’s case of ‘gang up on the ‘Nationalist / Braveheart / Fantasist / Terrorist’ (you choose)’
Personally …does anyone really go there apart form hardcore ‘No’ers’?
i did.nt realise bliar mcdougal was a wingman
Morning all
All debate will be stifled.
All dissent will be crushed.
Any disagreement with the above will be deleted.
Simple.
Clarinda post a link to a website that has a video of evidence to the Scottish Parliament by a EU expect who was involved in the enlargement of the EU.
It is available on Youtube:
Re comments not appearing on articles commenting seems to have worked for me refreshing not working any longer. These DOS attacks are getting really tiresome, it doesn’t stop me avidly reading Wings though – even if it might stop me ‘lurking’ :D. Still my first stop most days.
…
Better Together Forum Rules:
Rule 1: If you disagree with anything we write, you’re banned.
Rule 2: See rule 1.
Stuart they cannot have open and free debate as their lies are duly exposed. It’s a bit like when some of them comment on WOS and are roundly put right by yourself they slope off in the huff
It’s true that challenging anything on BT facebook page is tantamount to challenging the “State”. The “State” is always right, no dissent, no “yesnp” as they are called!
But you’re wrong about the rules…
…they’re currently located in among the fluff in Blair McDougall’s trouser pocket.
FGS don’t go looking in there, just take my word for it. 😉
I was going to be positive there and tell you that BT Inverclyde must be better than their HQ site since they welcome the oppossing arguments and want to engage in debate. However, just checked their facebook page and it appears as if ALL non bt comments have been removed and I have in fact been booted…
I was also removed from their Academics Together LinkedIn page after my first question…
It now seems as if its not so much about winning or losing debate, just being able to have one is an achievement. I suppose they are just taking their lead from the Tory PM David Feartie…
@ mogabee
One might ask how you would know such a thing mogabee.
sorry typos on my post at 12.34!
Clarinda posted a link to a website that has a video of evidence to the Scottish Parliament by a EU expert who was involved in the enlargement of the EU.
Talking of banning…
The first rule of britnat club is we’re not allowed to talk about britnat club.
Let’s help Blair McDougall out & save him the bother of ordering one of his junior staff to draft a rule book.
BT FACEBOOK ETIQUETTE RULES
Rule 1. Anyone posting anything that even hints of pro-union criticism will be instantly punished by having their posts removed & their account blocked forever.
Rule 2. Anyone posting anything that even hints at supporting Scottish independence will have their posts removed & their account blocked forever.
Rule 3. Before posting anything, assume that we’re right & you’re wrong.
Rule 4. Better Together is committed to fairness & impartiality. We hate lying but when our arguments don’t stack up, we really have no alternative.
BT facebook thingy, just closing down all opposition comments. I am sure PUTIN used such tactics to prevent opposition. Do not know if facebook was involved but online discussion groups were.
BT following the lead, as they are pretty brainless on their own.
Better Together’s entire approach seems to be to not engage in discussion.
Just took a look at BT facebook page. If it is typical of the level of intellectual ability of your average BT supporter then we’ve at least already won the moral high ground. Been a while since I read so much xenophobic hate filled nonsense, a lot of which im sure could be reported to Facebook for being in breach of Facebook Rules.
I was blocked for asking if the Ofgem tax take was classed as a London tax take or was the 2bn taken from Scotland accredited to our revenues to the exchequer .
Andrew Wilson’s article in a Sunday paper – Keep smiling and let the No side rant;
link to archive.is
You can be banned from their facebook page just for asking a question they don’t want to answer.
TBH, I direct anyone swithering to look at that page. When I used to look it was usually full of semi-fascistic catholic haters and sneery English folk calling us subsidy junkies.
It was an excellent advert for why we should vote Yes!
First rule of Facebook Fright Club: Don’t talk about Fright Club rules.
Second rule of Facebook Fright Club: Don’t talk about Fright Club rules.
As Alistair Darling wouldn’t debate with John Swinney on Politics Show in case his assertions are challenged why should anyone expect him to engage with mere bloggers.
Ed Balls was quoted over currency union as saying Scotland would be burden on the UK. How come? Can Labour explain their backing for George Osborne?
cmon rev you dont need to know the rules and remember ignorance is no defence.
halftracknat says:
I have never been able to comment on their page but get their emails begging for money on a regular basis
I wonder if you e-mailed them back stating that you were banned from their Facebook page and would therefore not feel it was right that you donated your money to them because you do not agree with North Korean styled oppression in the social media.
Two things are likely to happen, in my view.
1) You will suddenly find yourself being invited onto their Facebook page, along with continued e-mails begging you for money.
2) You will not be invited onto their Facebook page but you will no longer be receiving their begging e-mails. 🙂
I got banned from
Better Together
George Galloway
Mr Kelly
and a few others…
No idea why
Maybe they thought I had bird flu?
@Cindy and any others experiencing delays in posting… I am using Mac (Safari) and there are absolutely no problems. Could it be to with cache or firewall settings?
There are a few reasonable commentators from the NO side facebook page prepared to debate quite reasonably (although I’ve yet to see them won a single argument with any reasonably well informed Indy supporter).
I’ve often wondered how they feel when they see the admins deleting / banning posters who they know are only involved in a fair debate.
I’ve been banned by BT on numerous facebook accounts without ever using bad langauge or even saying anything remotely impolite. To be honest the first time it happened I was quite taken aback.
BTW you can track back through any comments you have posted in you facebook activity log.
I’m sure Alistair Stalin would love to open up some gulags in the Scottish wilderness to lock up those nasty cybernats.
I want to know how you lot managed to get on in order to get banned.
Every attempt I made was rejected. Given I knew they would be looking for an excuse I was ultra nice and reasonable. My posts were all based on financial reports / polls or quotes from politicians.
Not one post passed the “screening” and never an explanation.
The user name may have been a little clue I suppose 😀
link to dailymail.co.uk
The BT Facebook page is one of the Yes campaign’s greatest assets.
It’s always the same jingoistic bollocks from the same inchoate contributors WITH CAPS JAMMED ON, babbling about paradoxes and demonising wee Eck.
Any neutral observer can see by the language, the tone and the paucity of intelligent arguments that this is a busted flush.
Clootie,
Are you sure? Facebook comments appear instantly unless you are banned or not actually logged on to facebook. Or maybe you were pre-banned!
Does anyone else think that Darling Alistair looks a wee bit wandered, distant, incoherent, confused and he is prone to uttering wee porkies. I get the impression he is terrified something is going to be exposed which he is worrying about, maybe it’s just me! Mark you all the leaders aff in BT have got yon haunted look about them, mmmmmm. Maybe it’s just me!
Cabbage
pies
Really? This is the big news today? Could’ve sworn the President of the European Commission torpedoed the ‘Automatic EU membership’ line? Maybe I was dreaming …
“Really? This is the big news today? Could’ve sworn the President of the European Commission torpedoed the ‘Automatic EU membership’ line? Maybe I was dreaming …”
The word you’re looking for is “trolling”. Barroso’s been spouting the same cobblers for about 18 months. That’s pretty much the opposite of “news”.
Owners of the site
Can I suggest we get an area together for collecting facts
Just been over to the BT site and see some idiot posting that the Scottish whisky industry buys the bulk of it’s barley from England
Happen to work for Scotland biggest independent Whisky manufacturer and what he says is a lie
Although regulations don’t stipulate that the grain used has to be Scottish, figures from 2010 show 88% of the barley used for Scotch whisky production was sourced from Scottish farmers, adds Ms Hesketh-Laird.
Would it be possible to set up an area and head each post with a summary of information to be stored in it
ie
Scottish Whisky
Scottish Oil
Scottish Renew-able energy
etc
That way as we all gather information we could place the links and details into a section it pertains to – just facts and link – not discussions
Could you put it in the reference section maybe – advise people that its a look up area to get the real fact to demolish the lies that are being told on BT sites
often the biggest problem with demolishing lies are the hours spent trying to locate factual information
I would be happy to post lots of figures on our whisky industry 🙂
Well after all it is the 4th biggest export in the UK food and drink category
And it’s all ours, no one else in the world can call their whisky scotch 🙂
What do you think – quick fact section on the site?
The misinformation and withholding information is truly disgraceful and criminal. When the media and government in westminster lie blatantly to the people on a daily basis, democracy no longer has a place in their political climate for sure. There should be an independent body to monitor this referendum and to oversee the proceedings, but I guess that would be impossible seeing as they would be the very people who are indeed at the helm of the no campaign. This would make a good scary film, oh yes I forget it is called ‘1984’.
It a clear cut case of censorship of comments that BT don’t much like, and in my opinion, another sign of the jitters amongst the no camp.
O/T. On Politics Scotland this morning, the commentator asked Alistair Darling a very pertinent question, ” If all the Westminster parties can be so clear, about the use of the pound, why can’t the Westminster parties, be clear on other matters related to the independence debate”.
Mr Darling, bluffed and blustered, the question aside.
The establishment in whatever guise behave exactly as described in Catch 22. Simples
I just want to read the comments but have been instructed I must type a comment I don’t have one to make
Charley, really, is that the best yie’ve got?
Sorry for going O/T here.
I see Sky news are doing their best to push the “Scotland can not be part of the E.U.” thanks in part by that eejit Barosso.
Apparently, according to Barosso, Scotland falls into the same bracket as Kosovo! I’m thinking he’s trying to preserve HIS job and “protect” his home country Spain and has nothing to do with Scotland being in or out of the E.U.
Stupid woman on Sky news appears to be unable to listen to what John Swinney and continues non stop with the Scotland out of E.U. line. Gawd dammit where do they get these incompetent newscasters from?
On a different topic this is currently in the Herald.
link to archive.is
I wonder if NNC/Ch 4 news/ Ch 5 news/ Sky news will cover this story. Oh wait a minute what am I thinking of course they won’t!
What is it about the UK electorate… .?
We tolerate mediocrity in leadership.
We are masochists, before government policies that hurt the whole of society.
We show inordinate patience, faced with broken systems and the same repeated historical problems.
We expect our fears to be manifested and our hopes never to come to fruition.
Can anyone explain these phenomena?
Desperately trying to close down or at the very least destabilise new PR democracy here in Scotland has certainly pushed them into some very grey areas, BBC absurdly vote NO biased ,DDOS attacks on this website. But if you were making these kind of decisions, at what point does electoral fraud come into it for the 18th Sept? Last referendum, Labour changed electoral register qualifications at the last moment and even the dead ended up voting no.
So Barroso said it would be extremely difficult if not impossible for Scotland to automatically join the EU, what he didn’t say was, it couldn’t happen. Off the top of my head I can’t think of any of the 27 members who’d block Scotlands entry to the EU.
Not even Spain’s foreign Minister actually said he’d oppose it, according to John Swinney. Why would the EU block an emerging state with virtually all the EU laws in place, a country which has a very large portion of EU fishing rights, not mention oil and gas.
It appears to me anyway that Mr Barroso, is barking on the orders of the Westminster Government, and not on the orders of the other 26 members states.
link to express.co.uk
This has always been… and is undeniably proving to be; a battle between Freedom of Speech and Censorship… a battle between Self Determination and Subjugation… a battle between Democracy and Dictatorship… a battle between the Man on the street and the Establishment… a battle between Right and Wrong.
Sandra says:
“Just been over to the BT site and see some idiot posting that the Scottish whisky industry buys the bulk of it’s barley from England.”
link to bbc.co.uk
Great news that the whisky industry has such an increasing demand that Scottish farmers have been caught out. Fast forward a couple of years and maybe all barley will be homegrown. If not, we’ll have a heck of size of a whisky industry.
Arbroath 1320
The chappie is Portugese being their former PM. It is up to the EU states and not him. The video at 12.34 has an expert on the EU.
Barosso believes that Scotland is in a similar situation to Kosovo, yeah its exactly the same.
Kosovo isn’t even recognised as an independent state by around half the the members of the UN, there isn’t any reason why Scotland wouldn’t be recognised by every country.
Kosovo has never been in the EU, Scotland has been in the EU for 41 years.
Kosovo was formed after years of war and turmoil, an independent Scotland would be formed after a peaceful and fully democratic process.
Apart from all that it’s exactly the same.
I think you’ll find that anyone who needs to ask what the rules are has definitely broken them.
Barroso is a non story being pushed as a splash. He’s actually saying nothing new and any roads would you believe him or the opinion makers and EU legal experts? My money is still on Graham Avery’s assessment. Mr Barroso is a politician, therefor instantly suspect. 😉
Astonishing to think Darling was Secretary of State for Scotland when his response the reaction of SNP to the revelations of the McCrone Report was “This is typical of the nationalists, looking back to the past. This document is 30 years old”
link to news.bbc.co.uk
@Sandra
Just been over to the BT site and see some idiot posting that the Scottish whisky industry buys the bulk of it’s barley from England
I’m wondering if these lies come from BT themselves or are they regurgitated from BBC (dis)reporting Scotland?
I remember earlier on last week BBC (dis)reporting Scotland were running the same story. So the question really is, I suppose, did BBC (dis) reporting Scotland get the “story” from the Bitter gang or did the Bitter gang get the news from BBC (dis) reporting Scotland? 😉
The chappie is Portugese being their former PM. It is up to the EU states and not him. The video at 12.34 has an expert on the EU.
Thanks for the correction Marcia 😉
Neil MacKenzie
That is one cracker of a find.
Chapeau!
Arbroath 1320 says:
16 February, 2014 at 3:06 pm
@Sandra
It was written on a lavatory wall
Alex Salmond, is to appear in front of business leaders on Monday, in Aberdeen, and promises to deconstruct George Osborne’s speech on Thursday, to show the folly Osborne’s plan.
Salmond will tell business leader, that blocking Scotland from the use of Sterling will cost the rest of the UK’s businesses a fortune.
link to theguardian.com
re barrosso
My Portuguese friends do not rate him and consider one of the main reasons that Portugal is down the financial S-bend now.
bovril
Anything Jose Manuel Barrosso says, at any point, in relation to Scotland needs to have the following filter applied.
Wherever he says Scotland, edit your thought process to hear Catalonia. Because his performance is as much for their ears as any; certainly more than ours.
There are a whole ream of reasons why he’s talking rubbish. As others have said, there’s the mineral and fishing rights; I’m sure Spanish fishermen wouldn’t be too chuffed to be told that ‘it’s Scottish water and we’re not in the EU so you cannae fish here, mate.’ Then there’s the inconvenient fact that we’re part of the EU. And home to people from other places in the EU. If we are somehow removed from the EU by some method which they appear very, very keen not to mention (probably because it doesn’t exist) that would overnight make every single non Scottish resident originally from an EU member state very twitchy about how their residency in Scotland would be seen in a legal context. Ditto for any Scots in any other EU member state, suddenly finding they are no longer covered by free movement legislation because Scotland’s not in the EU and they’re suddenly not EU citizens.
Anyone REALLY believe Barrosso? No, I didn’t think many would.
As for Better Together; I have posted on there once, maybe twice, in a tone which questions and suggests very politely, or at least not very impolitely, that if they’re going to talk nonsense perhaps they should be willing to supply their sources. Blocked.
If MacDougall is reading this, so much the better, because, Blair, your organisation is a joke. It has only ever managed honesty on one occasion, and that’s when it wittily decided to call the campaign against independence ‘Project Fear.’
That’s all you’re good for, Blair, spreading lies, disinformation and half truth. You rely on the ignorance of the general public on so many different subjects to allow you to make your ridiculous claims then you censor anyone who spots your lies for what they are. Forced to join the Euro if you want to be in the EU is my personal favourite porkie. Fortunately I’ve been better educated on rules about qualifying economically for the Eurozone and guess what, Blair? We won’t be forced, sunshine, because we don’t meet the criteria.
The pound in my pocket today, frankly, won’t be very much different to the pound in mid 2016. It will either be in a currency union or it won’t be, but it’ll still be a pound.
Barroso’s second term of five years as EC President expires on …guess what date? September 16th 2014!!!
When we go to the polls he won’t even be in office.
NEXT!!
mash
Updating
@Sandra,
Could you get in contact please?
kininvie@gmail.com
In this article regarding EU membership and the pound, Willie Rennie and Johann Lamont stick the boot into Scots by telling them “Yae canny huv the pound, Yae canne huv the EU either.”
What a charming pair.
link to independent.co.uk
Really? This is the big news today? Could’ve sworn the President of the European Commission torpedoed the ‘Automatic EU membership’ line? Maybe I was dreaming …
I think primarily because Barroso’s keech has been debunked repeatedly and not just by YES but senior EU officials as having absolutely no basis in Law or any EU Treaty.
And consider for a moment the following….
The EU is in favour and promotes Self Determination around the world.
The people of Scotland (the EU’s largest Oil Producer) are going to decide their future in a legal & constitutional referendum.
Are we really to believe that if they decided to vote YES they would eject 5 million EU citizen for expressing their wish for Self Determination ?
It would leave the EU in the indefensible position of saying….
‘We support and endorse Self Determination…….as long as it disnae happen in Europe’.
It’s a ludicrous position to express.
Never underestimate the unpredictable stupidity of the
No campaign!
Hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia (aye, i know, cruel but true) seems tae be what Flipper and his Fellow Floppers suffer fae.
The Pro-No TV channels with their Pro-No participants
Present Nothing but lies.
Apologies to any genuine sufferers of Hipop…
logging in
Osprey
He’s not a great fan of democracy either, this guy Barroso – even from those on the far right.
link to blogs.telegraph.co.uk
A bit of a jokey idea, but might be fun.
Create bunch of mock application forms for the post of “great firewall censor” with the Chinese Communist Party, with a starting date of March 2016 and drop them off at Better Together offices and the offices of select labour ministers in Scotland.
@TheGreatBaldo
A rejection of the right to self determination of substates of states within the EU also puts it at odds with its very own course of action with regards to Ukraine.
When it comes down to it, the EU is determined to get Ukraine away from the grasp of Putin and that isn’t going to happen if the EU shows itself to be utterly hypocritical by not allowing an independent Scotland entry upon the breakup of the UK. As far as the EU is concerned, Spain and England can go cry a river as the EU won’t do anything that may jeopardise the great game its playing with Russia for Ukraine.
As someone who is quite strongly pro-EU (I know others aren’t) I don’t really see anything in Barroso’s response which is that objectionable. He said we’d have to reapply, which to my mind is pretty obvious even if there’s been a debate about this in the past. He also said every state would have to agree to it, which is also pretty obvious.
Perhaps the point about it being “difficult if not impossible” is contentious, but Barroso isn’t there to speak on behalf of the 28 governments in the EU. If he’d said “sure they’ll all agree to this no problem” he’d be going way beyond the mandate he has and putting words into the mouths of independent governments.
I thought Portugal was blessed by only one ‘special one’?
Barroso ain’t much of a friend of Scotland, is he? He just can’t help himself from making these ‘helpful’ statements – wonder if him and ‘call me Dave’ are pally – pally?
Why doesn’t Darling, as a Scottish MP simply ask the PM to ask the EU what the position is and save us all this bluster, smoke and mirrors ridiculousness?
Could one of Darling’s constituents maybe not ask him to ask the $25,000 question? Oh, sorry wait a minute, maybe Darling will think he’s getting $25,000 to ask that question!
Re-phrase – ask Darling to ask the question!
Fish
tarantula
Better Together website rules are really quite simple:
Freedom of Speech?- No. You have money? Welcome! Your donation? You were saying?
“Perhaps the point about it being “difficult if not impossible” is contentious,”
Yes it is, and guess which ones you’ll see in EVERY headline.
I have just been reading the comments below Kevin McKenna’s article in the Guardian. Many posters there seem to believe that the rUK can reject a currency union with Scotland in the event of a Yes vote, and that we would still have to pay our share of the debt? They will literally not listen to any arguments to the contrary. It really is like reading comments from Daily Mail readers. They seem absolutely enraged that we are standing up for ourselves and our rights as a nation.
O/T
‘No to a currency Union’ is a spin surfboard made of soap… It’s slippery, it’s melting and it was stupid idea in the first place.
And the way some Unionists commenters are foaming, they may have been biting it as well.
“The word you’re looking for is “trolling”. Barroso’s been spouting the same cobblers for about 18 months. That’s pretty much the opposite of “news”.”
Ah, so a current President of the European Commission and former Prime Minister of Portugal gives his considered opinion, but YOU are qualified to call it “cobblers”. Qualified how exactly?
Barroso’s views are indeed no news to anyone with a modicum of knowledge and sense. It is a political matter, it requires unanimous consent of all Member States, there are no applicable laws, rules or treaties.
Yet a certain party and its leader have been peddling the line that it was all “automatic”.
This is not true.
This has never been true.
This has always been known to be untrue.
They have been, and are, lying.
What else are they lying about?
“Barroso’s views are indeed no news to anyone with a modicum of knowledge and sense.”
Then we agree. Smashing.
The Better Together Norway facebook page was a great satirical look at the debate and called for Norway to join the union and share it’s oil wealth.
Better Together had the page removed but in doing so everyone who had liked BTN was then deemed to like BT.
The no lot don’t need to fight fair as they have nothing to win but everything to lose. The yes campaign however cannot use the same unethical behaviour as it will be pounced on by the London owned media.
@Lindsay
You are right at home with Project Fear’s abject negativity and smears aren’t you? I see we are back to the “Salmond is a fat liar” smear. Where is your famous positive case for the Union? Go on just admit it, it simply does not exist. You are left constantly playing the man and not the ball.
@Lindsay
Lying? How so?
As far as I’m aware the SG have, at least, for the past five years told people negotiation would be required.
I’ve gone back as far as I can in the old files, right back to 2007 in fact.
Choosing Scotland’s Future a National Conversation.
Page 22 Section 3:18 “Negotiations would also be required concerning the terms of Scotland’s (and the rest of the United Kingdom’s) continuing membership of the European Union and other international bodies to which Scotland currently belongs as a component nation of the United Kingdom. Such negotiations would necessarily involve both the Scottish and United Kingdom Governments, together with international partners.”
Also 3:21 “An independent Scotland would continue in the European Union and bear the burdens and fulfil the responsibilities of membership. Following negotiations on the detailed terms of membership, Scotland would be in a similar position to other European Union member states of a similar size.”
Or Your Scotland Your Voice from 2009:
Scotland in Europe Section 8.12: “Settling the details of European Union membership would take place in parallel to independence negotiations with the United Kingdom Government, and would cover areas such as number of MEPs and weight in the Council of Ministers.”
So to say they’ve misled the public on process is a bit extreme. Let’s leave that to the politicians. Have you read the Avery assessment? His position and credentials are beyond reproach.
“An independent Scotland will continue to be a member of the European Union (EU) and will not have to re-apply according to Graham Avery, Honorary Director-General of the European Commission and Senior Adviser at the European Policy Centre in Brussels.”
link to publications.parliament.uk
Whereas Mr Barosso? Well he is a consummate politician shall we say?
Just a thought. Might be a good idea to type refresh if youre trying to update comments rather than something random. Just my personal opinion but I think it would look better.
If you are pro-independence, and you don’t want blocked by Better Together:
Don’t sound reasonable, don’t source your information, and mention Braveheart as often as possible.
What’s the point?
I must say I was quite depressed listening to Sunday Politics after enjoying Nicola Sturgeon’s London speech on BBC Parliament. A double blow from the currency issue and then Barroso got young Garry exercised about the mess that the Scottish Government was in. Then I listened to Isobel Lindsay and Pauline McNeil in discussion. McNeil, I thought was quite conciliatory but Isobel Was very strong in rubbishing all the politicking.
I think I am back to positivity in the Independence debate.
I watched ‘Eorpa’ bbc Alba last night, one of their few half decent programs made, but hard to find. Episode 9 is partly about Macedonia, worth a watch, not exactly relevant but gives an idea of the complexities and obstacles that countries like Macedonia have in their pursuit of EU membership, but of course, we all know that is a completely different case to that of a newly Independent country which is already a member, as indeed Scotland is. It would be very silly of them to reject Scotland as a member, there is too much to lose.
link to bbc.co.uk
So it is interesting though, in the context of the EU and how they can hold back a country which is NOT already a member….only available on iplayer for another 16 hrs!
“Yet a certain party and its leader have been peddling the line that it was all “automatic”.”
This is a fair point to an extent – I think the Yes campaign did overreach a bit with the automatic EU membership line. I wouldn’t go as far as to say it’s “lying” though. At worst it was a slightly misguided attempt to sweep the issue under the carpet.
I was barred because I had the temerity to suggest that devo max might be more attractive to the average voter than either the yes or BT position.
@Bill Walters – Could you provide a link or some sort of proof to your assertion that any party or leader stated that EU membership would be ‘automatic’
sorry Bill should have been @Lindsay Could you provide a link or some sort of proof to your assertion that any party or leader stated that EU membership would be ‘automatic’
Rule No 1 of the Blorg BBC Collective
Assimilate jocks or be destroyed !
A wee question for Angela Merkel. Who do you think will provide the most positive financial contribution to the EU? Scotland, Spain or Portugal?
Great news that the whisky industry has such an increasing demand that Scottish farmers have been caught out
Yeah – from the figures I have 80% produced in scotland in 2012
Noticed the newspaper article doesn’t say how much we buy from England
2011 crop
Surprisingly, considering last year’s poor harvest weather, the Scottish barley crop was of very good quality, while in England and France the crops suffered from high nitrogen levels, he says.
“Barley with low nitrogen levels – less than 1.65 per cent – is used for pot still malt production, while high N barley (1.75 per cent plus) can be used for grain distilling, along with wheat, or for brewing, although there is a limited amount of brewing taking place in Scotland these days.”
Maybe I should inform our BT poster that due to the stubbornness of his leader importing barley from England is going to be more expensive due to currency conversion
😉
A full discourse of all the rules and regulations of the better together campaign web sites are available at all meetings that better together hold.
These meetings are of course by invitation only and the secret location of the next one will be made available if you are on the confidential list.
Croompenstein, attached show Danes saying EU entry would be straightforward link to heraldscotland.com . hope that helps. Not sure why it doesn’t get reported (joke).
Found the info
Feb 2014
So glad to see that we are fully utilizing every part of the Scottish crop first before buying in from other countries
Demand for malting barley ‘set to outstrip what Scotland can supply’
link to scotsman.com
Yet, it had been estimated that with the distilling industry requiring the equivalent of 900,000 tonnes for pot still production and a further 100-110,000 tonnes for high DP maize and wheat distilling, the demand was there for all the quality barley that was likely to be produced.
But he also pointed out that, with demand for malt likely to continue to rise in line with whisky growth, Scotland’s malting capacity had been reached and around a further 150,000 tonnes of malt – equating to 200,000 tonnes of malting barley – was likely to need to be imported from either south of the Border or from the continent to meet demand in future years.
“Scotland would be formed after a peaceful and fully democratic process.”
Apart from the censorship , lying, unionist conspiracy and media bias?
I have been having difficulty today posting on the Scottish Herald commentary. Even innocuous comments have not appeared.
Is it possible to take a screen shot of comments you make on BT pages as evidence of discriminatory deleting? Maybe if enough people sent these to friendly newspapers……
I got banned for asking the better together page about the dennis healy article in the times
Marr did everything bar offer to fellate Barroso, no scrutiny just head nodding to an old tune-there are obvious problems to his view, the most obvious being that Scotland’s citizens are already EU citizens, I don’t know how Barruso was going to ban us from having this legal status, maybe Lindsay can tell us why I will no longer be an EU citizen but my England born brother living in Scotland will be when we both vote Yes this year?
I have had non offensive posts deleted from the DT comments section because they were uncomfortable for the paper.
I have also had my identity actually nicked then used by the Scotsman.
A total disgrace. However, I am not a quitter and whilst I have abandoned the scotsman (ha ha, scots indeed) I continue to annoy the many Scottish Editors of the DT.
What a bunch of tubes. It does however encourage me to see the amount of multi posters at the Scotland section of this rag. There appears to be more intelligent Scots posting there than there are idiot unionists pretending to be 3 or 4 people each.
This combined with te “lack of footsoldiers” and the constant non stories of all UK media fills me with hope.
I was banned from their site as I challenged some of their articles. The BT site on FB is actually an anti-Salmond site where is and other SNP members are regularly called Nazi’s, likend to a certain North Korean dictator and I myself was regularly told to shut up, be quiet and F off. In short, the BT site sums the BT campaign up perfectly – negative, aggressive, skewed and censoring. I also have reason to believe they may have employed certain social media employees to boost the amount of likes they have recieved.
The Yes site, in comparison, is refreshing, postive and inclusive.
I got banned from Newsnet Scotland (posting as Grendel, then again as 1820) for posting reasonable comment about windfarms.
Apparently there is little room for debate on there, but plenty of room for echo.
I’m banned from Say No To Scottish Independence and Better Together for positive comment about independence.
I’m another person who was banned from their page last year.
I can assure people I was polite, but I think it happened after I pointed out someone’s hypocrisy for ad hominem attacks at Alex Salmond immediately after someone else said how terrible it was that people were making ad hominem attacks against David Cameron. Alternatively it might have been after I said I was unhappy over how Scotland seems unable to affect the outcome of who we’re governed by.
It is with some irony that some friends who are No supporters (including one who saw me being banned and agreed that it was inappropriate) have accused the Yes campaign of fascism and attempting to suppress free speech, and compared the white paper to Hitler’s propaganda campaign.
Still, this debate is nothing if not polarising.
I took one for the team today and spent 10hrs on Better Together Facebook page. It was the pits.
I was abused and ridiculed which with my big shoulders I can take it. What was notable but no surprise was they were 2yrs behind us in terms of knowledge.
Not just same old fear stories but totally ignorant of facts.