The Two Kirstys
January 2018, with no general election due for four and a half years: “I very rarely talk about Scottish independence in the chamber, because I talk about things that matter”
June 2024, with an election in four weeks and a £91,346 salary, expenses and pension at stake: “ROBERT THE BRUCE! BANNOCKBURN! DECLARATION OF ARBROATH! FLOWER OF SCOTLAND! FREEEEEEEEEDOOOOOOMMMM!”
We suppose at least it distracts her from wondering what sex she is.
(Yes, we do know the Bruce isn’t actually holding the Declaration there, but we bet you a million pounds Kirsty couldn’t tell you what it is any more than she knows what her chromosomes are.)
(Two years after that Guardian interview, the SNP made Blackman its “key strategic lead on the constitution” to show just how little it cared about it.)
All snark and mockery aside, please don’t elect her again, readers in Aberdeen, unless you want her to instantly shut up about independence again for another half-decade the day after the vote. It’s not like she hasn’t warned you.
And people everywhere else, don’t make the mistake of thinking that any other SNP candidate is any different. Blackman’s just the only one thick enough to say it out loud.
Got it in one!
Robert the Bruce, King of Scots (1306 — 1329) born 11 July 1274 in Writtle, near Chelmsford, Essex.
TBF Blackman would be hard pressed to get a gig shelf stacking at a local ScotMid.
Kirtsten Oswald will be straight on the Disability Allowance for morbid obesity.
Her and the good little parliamentarian that is Tommy Shepherd.
Almost everyone of them had been a major disappointment.
Why do SNP politicians treat Scottish voters as a bunch of idiots?
Perhaps it’s because the voters (or at least 45% of the voters) in the past decade have been dumb enough to fall for the SNP’s promises.
Politicians (of all parties) first priority is to get elected. That’s also their 2nd, 3rd, and 4th priority. And if “dumb and hypocritical” has worked in the past, why should we expect them to change?
Why, oh, why would anyone vote for this, this… whatever this is? What and absolute waste of space and oxygen. Scotland has and will pay a heavy price for putting up with such disingenuous characters sitting in Westminster.
After her 2018 announcement (which Stu highlights above) Blackman was reelected in Aberdeen North in 2019 by a large margin–54% to 30% for her closest competitor.
The SNP voters–indeed, the majority of voters–seemingly didn’t care about her hypocrisy.
Dear God.
That would help explain why Dross thinks conservatives can beat the SNP.
Look what they are up against.
A person who might take offence if I say she or he or it.
A person of responsibility in an Independence Party not bothered about independence.
For all her years and SNP years in Westminster they have achieved nothing but insults and proof that Scotland doesn’t matter.
That will be her Birth Certificate she’s holding up.
Suffering from visual impairment, as she bravely does, she has to hold it at arm’s length to decipher what it says in the box marked “SEX”.
Show some sympathy for the poor, afflicted lassie.
Honestly, this place is like a jungle sometimes.
Sigh. Just got a wee leaflet in the door, asking me to vote for Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South). No mention at all of independence. His big bold message is:
ONLY THE SNP CAN BEAT THE TORIES HERE
Wow. is that it? That sums up the pathetic bunch of poseurs representing the SNP these days.
They either don’t want independence, or they don’t have a clue how to achieve it and are too proud to ask any help from those that do. They don’t seem to care – all that matters is that fat pay check at the end of the month. Just go through the motions for another five years.
Many will still vote for them out of habit, I suppose. But anyone that thinks at all before giving them a big X on the ballot paper will certainly know that it’s a complete waste of time and effort. Why bother?
The quote which springs to mind comes from the classic work ‘Blood Meridian’ by Cormac McCarthy;
“If you had not been alive for years, imagine how absurd it’d be to experience what you’re experiencing right now.”
@Viridarius says:7 June, 2024 at 1:27 pm
As Rev Stu points out, that’s not the Declaration of Arbroath King Robert is holding.
And just as well. A scrap of parchment from some privileged, titled, landed and ecclesiastical toffs to The Pope, boasting about how the Scots genocided the Picts, wouldn’t go down too well!
I thought my home town had more sense than to vote he,she or it into parliament.
Living in Glasgow the only fliers dropped in have been from the SNP on three occasions – I even told a lovely lady delivering them that they could whistle for my vote and I generously itemised my reasons.
” I very rarely talk about independence , because the things that matter to my constituents are more important”.
That’s like ignoring an elephant standing on your bed, and complaining about bed bugs instead. Every problem that her constituents have, big or small , are as a direct consequence of being in the UK. That’s the whole feckin point of independence.
She dismisses independence , as a side show. When it’s actually the single most important thing that can change everything.
She was elected to WM to settle up , not bed down in the Union.
I’d say with the honourable exception of Joanna Cherry.
@ Campbell Clansman at 1.42pm:
“The SNP voters–indeed, the majority of voters–seemingly didn’t care about her hypocrisy.”
I’m sure Kirsty Blackman was elected with such a huge majority for exactly the same reason as the SNP gained 56 out of 59 Westminster seats: because the people of Aberdeen and of Scotland as a whole want independence, and the SNP’s raison d’etre was supposed to be the gaining of our independence. Who else were independence supporters going to vote for but the party that was supposed to bring about independence?
Now before I start, I am not advocating voting Tory or supporting the Tories in any way.
That being said I grew up and worked in Glasgow in the 70’s and the 8o’s I well remember and shared the hatred of the Tories at the time. However I have moved on and what happened then has little relevance to the issues nowadays.
This doesn’t mean the CURRNT tory pack are not chancers and charlatans but the particular hate figures are all gone 40 years in the past.
By all means don’t vote tory because of what they are doing NOW but still hating on what they did 40 years ago to a large part of the UK is pointless.
My feelings have changed a lot since then, I don’t think what the tories did to a lot of industries was actually wrong, it was the way it was done that was the issue and no alternatives were put in place before closing places down. If new industries and infrastructure had been getting put in place to keep pace with closures the situation would actually have been positive rather than the massively negative one it was.
Didn’t she also claim at one point that she was elected to further devolution?
If so she hasn’t even managed that.
What a pointless vote she was & she’s a nasty bully to boot.
From what I’ve witnessed on SM she spent more time attacking her colleagues (McAlpine/Cherry) than she did on any actual constituency concerns.
I dunno why she wasn’t sacked..oh wait..
@ Rob at 2.18pm:
I for one will never, ever forgive the Tories for the destruction they brought upon Scotland, and all without a shred of democratic legitimacy. Even if they promised to repay the oil revenues they’ve stolen, rebuild our industry, renationalise our public services and build council houses for everyone who needs them, I would still despise them. I want their odious policies and politicians gone from Scotland completely and forever. They can go to hell.
Michael Laing writes about Blackman winning huge in 2019: “the SNP’s raison d’etre was supposed to be the gaining of our independence. Who else were independence supporters going to vote for but the party that was supposed to bring about independence?”
And that proves my point. The SNP depended on voters not really caring about holding the SNP to its supposed raison d’etre. Even worse, after this statement, Blackman INCREASED her majority in the seat, from 41.3% in 2017 to 54.0% in 2019. She got more votes as a hypocrite than as a movement person.
The “independence-supporting” voters REWARDED her for her hypocrisy–or, at least, that’s how the politicians saw it.
Rob
The Tories still idolise Thatcher.
She closed industries cause she was instructed to by the yanks. Their great plan to de-industrialise & import cheaper.
Now WW3 is kicking off & no one has a pot to piss in lol..
Michael Laing @ 2:16 pm
“Who else were independence supporters going to vote for but the party that was supposed to bring about independence?”
Precisely so, the people put all their faith in the national party promises and they have deceived the people in all respects. The deceit of a dominant national party turns out to be an all too common theme in postcolonial literature.
This does not mean independence is lost, it is merely delayed, as the people begin to better understand their colonial reality and, importantly, that independence means decolonization. After this realisation ‘which sickens the movement’ (Fanon) we go into the final phase, phase III, the ‘liberation phase’:
https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2024/05/25/the-three-phases-of-decolonization-lessons-for-scotland/
AFTER Blackman said that most voters “don’t give two hoots about whether Scotland is a member of the Union,” and decided to soft-pedal independence, in the next election she INCREASED her margin of victory from 41.3% to 54.0%. This 12.7% swing was much better than the overall swing to the SNP in 2019 (8.1%).
Doesn’t that increased majority sort of prove her point?
The voters do not actually vote these people in, they only think its a voting democracy.
These things are pre-arranged, even in the Snp,
If there was such a democracy in Scotland, when the 2014 referendum was interfered by a foreign Country and recognised as being so by prime minister Boris Johnstone on MSM in 2020.
You would suspect that the Scots would have been given the chance to have a proper referendum by Westminster parliament, unless you are in a Colonial dictatorship.
And that a 2014 Scottish franchise would have had the contract to count our votes, not a Tory franchise,
According to Westminsters needs, Scottish votes are Malleable,
I am not voting in, that corrupt continued system for Scotland , and refuse to act like a turkey voting for Christmas dinner,
I non – violently and legally as my right will act upon my Scottish Sovereignty to apply the right to self determination and confirm the Scottish claim of Right to choose of Sovereignty a entirely different form and system of governance.
No need to sign petitions or protest in the Street, no need to have to wait until Salvo can Challenge the Status Quo, no need to beg for referendums.
All it requires is a majority of Sovereign Scots to do the Same,
What bliss that we fail to send any elected person to sit in Westminster on their arses , election after election,
We can do what all the Scottish politicians in Scotland fail to do.
Make them leave their comfy seats down South, by not voting any of them en masse.
Abstain or abdicate your supporting vote for the Scottish elites who suffer from a dependency complex in the Colony of Scotland,
Each election the Snp would disappear, as would the austerity Tories the Woke Labour party, the greens perverted ideology,
This may be quicker than any other route to independence and it is legal, and non violent,
We can cause the demise of all the Colonial and unionist parties in Scotland, its our choice as Sovereign Scots,
Where’s her scarf?
I have never seen her without a scarf.
Dressing up as a toddler is all the rage it seems.
Maybe she’s using her scarf as a nappy.
What’s on her wee girlie dress?
I can’t see it clearly but it
looks like what the Americans call pacifiers.
Pacifiers that’s perfect. Completes the outfit nicely.
Do you think she ever visits the Polycule?
I might have to take a trip to Aberdeen it sounds as if it’s all happening up there.
The NUSNP only uses Indy to further there own agenda with Sturgeon still in charge the only thing that’s change is no one is daft enough to give the party donations, so I have to come back to the previous Wings post how did the MP’S get a £100,000 so quickly by crowdfunding.
The SNP carrots are dangling like f*ck right now in the hope that voters will give them their votes, they had their chance and they f*cked us over big time, I hope they get wiped out in the foreign country of England’s elections come the 4th of July.
Meanwhile Tammany Hall, aka Glasgow City Council, in which its LEZ has seen 300 taxi drivers lose their jobs because their taxi’s weren’t compliant, is using non-LEZ compliant trucks to remove illegally parked vehicles in my home town of Glasgow, what a bunch of hypocrites these self-serving, troughing, b*stards are.
In reality the LEZ is nothing more than a money making scheme dressed to look like an environmental advancement programme.
Clansman Clanger..
Facts. Get to know them.
1. SNP had no opposition. You see, all the yoons not registered in this country fill our parliament. SNP 1&2 results in 1 million votes that would otherwise go to another genuine indy party discarded right into the bin.
2. GE2019 There’d to be referendum in 2021 following the 2020 Brexit where we were officially being dragged out & BoJo Churchill was a cert to win a majority.
Or you could vote for Charlie Abel, Alba. Don’t know that much about him but he does know what sex he is which is more than some of those on the Aberdeen North ballot paper do.
Apparently the Scottish Greens are putting forward 44 candidates. Deep joy…
Mowgli, with his tiny little feet, left the D-Day landings early to do an interview with ITV and offended the last remaining veterans alive.
Salmond said in his book – The Dream Shall Never Die – I remember him saying that he felt that Cameron misunderstood the Scottish psyche, over estimating our desire to celebrate a bloody carnage. And under estimating our desire for peaceful endeavours.
I couldn’t agree more. War has returned to Europe by all of these tossers like Macron – a horrible French man – And Joe Biden. Who appeared to sit down on a chair that wasn’t there. Until Doctor Jill – his wife – lead him away.
Mowgli has apologised and will be on a plane to the United States in a few weeks time. He makes war criminal to be – knob bend starmer the dictator – look good.
44 eh?
They must be doing well with their donors back at Furry HQ.
Rob,
The hate figures of the 1980s may be gone but the ghost of past events lives on in the spirit of every major party now operating in Scotland as well as the UK.
The deliberate rightward march of all the major players in favour of a group of elites (and the rest be damned) has brought our country to its knees.
They’ve sold every piece of the family silver they could get their hands on and are actively working on the rest.
They’ve maxed out every credit card and continue to run up massive bills to the extent that the debt is incapable of being repaid by the few generations even if there was a will to do so.
Rob, maybe now in your rose tinted spectacles, the I’m alright Jack attitude and because you’ve enough savings to have a decent funeral, the cares of the future don’t exert the same pressure on you, however, the youngsters just starting out in life will have a long hard journey ahead of them and it’s all the fault of our generation, we gave credence to these politicians, these charlatans, and we’ve utterly failed our children and our grandchildren in doing so.
Notice how the serial troll “Geri” headlines her (His?) comment as “facts”–and then doesn’t even try and give a fact?
I cite objective statistics. “Geri” doesn’t. I’m happy with the contrast.
Here’s another objective statistic: Aberdeenshire voted NO on Indy in 2014–by a wide margin.
Maybe “Geri” and the other Moonhowlers should consider that Blackman soft-pedals her “Indy” stance because she believes that’s what the people of her area desire. You know… representative democracy… Will of the people.
Viridarius
Born in Essex..
Rubbish.
Academic opinion is split between Turnberry and Lochmaben with Turnberry generally coming out favourite.
People like you who spout Anglocentric mischief making myth history do us all a disservice.
Puts me in mind if the other classic English myth history trope being trotted out unquestioned these days being that William Wallace (they claim) was an archer in English service in Edward Plantagenets wars of annexation of Wales, notwithstanding (of course) that William Wallace would have been roughly between the age of only (maximum) 7 and 13 years old during those years!
16 was the absolute minimum acceptable age especially for paid military service.
Yup, never let inconvenient truths get in the way of putting our history and heroes down.
Jackie Baillie – one of the few half decent politicians in Holyrood, got torn into Free Ports Forbsy on the unspend 450 million – the pious and sleekit presbyterian – who’s building Scotland’s economy upon the sand had no answers.
Well, according to electoral calculus, Kirsty has a 65% chance of keeping her snout in the trough. It’s a very dynamic situation though with a clear direction of travel.
SkyBet is offering 7/2 on the SNP winning fewer than 10 seats. That, as I understand, means they think it’s quite unlikely…. Could be worth a punt?
Bet365 are offering double your money if the SNP wins fewer than 21.5 seats… and I think that’s a better bet if you are willing to fork up a bigger stake. £250 on that and you could have some fun times…
My record on politics bettering is slightly better than my record on Chinese invasions. I won significantly on Trump becoming President and got in early with a £48 stake at 8/1. I also won on Brexit but I forget how much…
I’m trying to find odds on global thermonuclear war kicking off but there isn’t a lot doing. I’d be willing to accept seeds if I win, instead of cash.
Did anyone see Ross Greer at FMQs paying lip service to the veterans and memory of d-day their lives during D-Day?
He’s a hypocrite when you consider he called Winston Churchill a “white supremacist mass murderer.”
Bit rich from Greer. He’s attacked the name of the Great British hero and everyone that fought in WW2. Hasn’t he?
CC,
I agree, there should be democracy. Scotland should not be allowed to shirk its responsibilities in this area.
We should be making our own decisions (good or bad) and be accountable for those decisions and definitely not allowing another country to make all our important decisions for us.
We should definitely vote for a party wants us to do that.
Clanger
Well nows her bug chance without the indy vote. Simples.
Roasters like you believe it’s only indy voters who voted SNP. They don’t. Yoons do too. I’ve asked you before – How do you know which is which?
& I gave you facts. SNP had a free rein because SNP 1&2 blocks new parties from being established. They’d absolutely no one in parliament to hold them to account.
Sorry if that doesn’t fit yer wee story you had going there…
If the polls are accurate, and independence supporters sit at 50% with a little plus regardless of political party,
Then Scotlands people do have a voice, to say No, “Not in Our name,”
Alf Baird @ 2:59pm
“This does not mean independence is lost, it is merely delayed”
I believe Scotland’s independence, and thereby her liberation, is inevitable.
The ’empire’, in its desperation, is already making great mistakes, and will make even more and greater mistakes before it’s finally geid its marchin’ orders.
It might be ‘painful’ for the Scots for a while (nothing new there for Scots, tho), but that greater pain is, I think, necessary to fully awaken them and stir them from their ‘slumber’ – otherwise they would doze in comfortable ignorance of their true condition until they dreamt themselves out of existence and into some forgotten history.
Perhaps, ultimately, it’s the coloniser itself that awakens the desire in a people, and gives them the impetus, to demand their liberation from it
Young Lochinvar.
Very similar to the theoretical “Dicey” Myths regarding Scotland and England and the hoax,
David Hannah
No, he was definitely right about Churchill.
About the only thing he got right – well that & having ultra white supremacist Piers Morgan go full gammon live on air LOL
Not wrong about Churchill. ‘Voted’ greatest Brit of the last century, he was was a pioneer of concentration camps , chemical warfare and genocide in general. The embodiment of the UK.
He was oor white supremacist mass murderer. Was he not MP for Dundee?
Campbell clansman 3:24pm
You DO KNOW that that area (and most of Aberdeen) has a huge population of rich IMMIGRANTS, ie Americans etc that came in to do all the oil jobs – which Scots didn’t get a chance to apply for? My son works with/for them, talks to them & lives in a very high-end area. So this is FACT. They are MONEY people. Why would they vote for a social party that would take more money off them and give it to those who desperately need it? THEY DON’T.
Ruby: 3:01pm
Scots call pacifiers ‘dummies’. Very appropriate for her, don’t you think?
John – Churchill would have been voted such by the English. They don’t have many heroes to pick from . Most were imperialist war mongers, or invented like Robin Hood.
The only one they cling onto is Churchill. But they cherry pick the allied victory in WW2 , which makes him a hero. Ignoring that 80% of his other involvements were abhorrent , and he was a nasty racist bully.
Indeed England has only ever been on the right side of a war once in it’s existence, that being WW2. Everything else is no history to be proud of. Including their recent crimes in Ireland.
Kirsty Blackman is the quintessential example of someone who virtue-signals for a living. In that sense, she has earned her pennies. In any sane world, in any sane country, in any sane party, he would receive the Order pow the Boot. She is a despicable human being who actually cares about no one except the men in frocks, like so many women who need their nethers kicked.
Between treacherous women and ("Tractor" - Ed)ous Scots, it’s difficult to know where to start. You can’t get through to them because they have an in-built refusnik frontal lobe that is stimulated only by the most absurd and unreal concepts – the wackier and off the planet, the better for them. They are self-made schizoid masochists, who self-create two separate people in the one body in order to remain living.
“I am a Unionist Scot who wants independence” and/or “I am a female who wants men to abuse me by denying my humanity”. It is both an absurdity and a reasonable conviction with no contradictions for people like Kirsty Blackman. Robert Louis Stevenson understood the condition very well, as did Burns, JM. Barrie, Naomi Mitchison, and more or less all artistic and cultural Scots, who reflected that dichotomy in the Scottish/female psyche. It is the utter lack of self-awareness that is unforgivable. She is not a child. I will not be voting SNP in the GE. End the Union. Repeal the GRA.
The voters rewarded Blackman for easing off on Indy with a much larger swing in 2019 (12.7%) than the SNP average swing (8.1%). Pro-Indy supporters could have sponsored an independent, non-hypocrite, pro-Indy candidate against her in 2019, but they didn’t.
Maybe, just maybe, the voters aren’t as passionate about Indy as the Moonhowlers and (illiterate) serial trolls believe… Maybe Blackman, hypocrite that she is, has a point when she claims “the constitutional issues are not the biggest concern for an awful lot of people.”
@viridarius GTF
1. No one knows for sure where the Bruce was born since Ed1 destroyed 100s of years of written Scottish history
2. There was a royal wedding in England and his pregnant mum was a guest.
So shove your little Englander attitude
Lorna – Is she the living embodiment of ‘Schrodinger’s Cat’?
Well, Kirsty Racistsexistsurname might claim not to know whether she’s a man or a woman but I’m pretty sure she’d waste no time in claiming misogyny or gender-based violence any time a man had the temerity to suggest that she stop talking shite.
Big Jock – surely Schrodinger’s Pussy? Simultaneously a fanny and a knob.
In my constituency of Angus and Pershire Glen’s no true Independistas standing so it’s #endtheunion written on the ballot paper.
Guess that would be a good choice across much of Scotland.
“Indeed England has only ever been on the right side of a war once in it’s existence, that being WW2. Everything else is no history to be proud of. Including their recent crimes in Ireland”
What about the war with the states where we burnt the white house, I am sure were were the good guys there 🙂
Remember that all the wars that you are talking about, and I am not saying we were always the good guys as that would be very naive, were British wars and not English.
A good number of the troops and the leaders were Scots too and disproportionetly so.
As for Churchill, yeah he did some shitty things and at times he was a bit of a nutcase but I am glad he was around in 1940 as my german is crap 🙂
“I for one will never, ever forgive the Tories for the destruction they brought upon Scotland, and all without a shred of democratic legitimacy. Even if they promised to repay the oil revenues they’ve stolen”
To be fair, that one is mostly on Labour.
This General Election and the Scottish election in 2026 will prove once and for all if we really are too stupid to become an independent nation.
I can but hope that the new Tory gerrymandered Constituencies will see the man and Indy hating Blackman losing her once safe seat. How on fuckin Earth did she get re-selected? I guess any sane Nationalist members in that Constituency have long since left the SNP.
I further suspect that if the folk of Aberdeen North vote in a Labour Yoon that even that Yoon will be a man hating gender bending and pro-castration Wokist.
Aye katielass04
It’s perfect. Dummy! Dummy Tit!
Another one of her wee girlie dresses had an outer space theme with lots of rockets & planets.
Total rocket living on another planet. The wee dress was perfect.
The purple hairdo fitted the outer space theme perfectly.
Does anyone think Nicola xan return after this car crash.
Dies Nicola think ahe can make a come back.
CC I see you’re now copying the franchise fanny trait of calling others moonhowlers, are you one and the same smartass ellis or are you just another deluded fuckwit, you like to denigrate people for voting Scum Nonce Party so tell us o great one who you voted for and what great benefits they gave to Scotland, if as usual you are just another blowhard unionist perhaps you could outline some of the benefits the union has brought to Scotland, or maybe you’re just like the franchise fanny and his fellow white flight crew from engerland desperate to escape the hoards
Shug @ 18.17.
I’d guess that she (and her band of travelling lesbians) will become a fixture on the TV & chat show circuit so beloved by the woke brigade.
International speaking tours, particularly in the USA, lecturing to academics and political science students about her brand of feminism and the struggle she had to make her way against prejudice and betrayal.
There are still plenty of the deluded out there supporting her, never realising that “the hypocrite despises those whom he/she/whatever deceives”.
Geezo, the dictator of the Kna-t-tzi regime in U, Z was at the D-Day 80th commemorations of the defeat of the Kn–att–zzi-s, and Z physically embraced the likes of French President Macron.
We’ve went from removing Kna–ttzz–is to supporting them, one WWII K–na–ttzz–i even got invited into the Canadian parliament where he got a standing ovation.
The West is f*cked.
David Hannah @ 15.33.
This would be the Ms Baillie who when I contacted her prior to the vote on the GRR Bill assured me that she would be supporting it only after the Labour amendments to the Bill were accepted.
Then voted along with her colleagues for the unamended Bill.
She’s a lot more woke in her views than comes across in her public speeches.
Meanwhile on Wednesday night another SNP MP one Martin Docherty – Hughes was on the independent Scotland at 7 programme stating how all of us in Europe, and all of the party political spectrum should resolutely band together to fight Russia.
Now I know Docherty – Hughes is the SNP’s defence spokesman but listening to him you couldn’t get a cigarette paper between his desire for war than that espoused by Boris Johnson. Westminster has turned him into a war mongering belligerent Brit.
The sooner this useless Brit nobody loses his £91,000 Westminster salary, plus generous pension and expenses the better.
I remember the travelling willberrrys.
I am lovin the travelling lesbians
NOT
Set to Iggy Pop’s Lust for Life a la Trainspotting….
Choose Kirsty Blackman. Choose the Sham Nationalist Party. Choose missed opportunities and squandered mandates. Choose a wasted trip to the polling booth. Choose contemplating which unionist to vote for if ALBA, the ISP or #EndtheUnion isn’t an option. Choose sitting up past midnight to watch the live results, in the knowledge that the SNP won’t do fuck all for the next five years having done fuck all during the previous. Choose listening to Swinney drone on like a primary school teacher about unicorns and rainbows and independence. Choose wishing that Sturgeon was banged up for a stretch with a 6’4″, 250lb cellmate called Marilyn, who is reality just a cross dressing fetishist, misogynist and anatomically intact male called Gavin. Choose more of the same shite from Blackman and her pals, sitting in Westminster and living well off your tax money for a net benefit to Scotland resembling the square root of fuck all. Choose your future. Choose to tell Kirsty and the other troughers in the SNP to do one. Choose someone else.
Someone needs to shuffle Biden off into a quiet room somewhere. FFS it’s just cruelty watching him make a complete arse of himself every time he opens his mouth.
Republicofscotland
Aye. The two countries with the biggest contributions were erased from the yanks Hollywood story & were instantly relegated to the footnotes. They don’t half believe their own shite. Tell a lie long enough I suppose..
Robert
Lol Choose a bottle, choose 43 shot glasses, choose to party instead..
Btw love that tune..yrs ago I tried to upload a cracking wee vid of my Border Collie herding to that song but YouTube kept pulling it for copyright..grrr
Half Time quite a boring match. Talking about Kirsty and the lack of understanding of biological sex. The STV news bulletin at six pm would have got a 10 out of 10 from me on their coverage of the Swiftie concert at Murrayfield. Interviews with young women and girls enjoying themselves. A very positive bulletin including the economic benefits to Edinburgh. But cut to some male fancying himself as a woman. The editorial staff couldn’t resist it. The only men that should be at Murrayfield are husbands, Dads or Grandads. Why can’t young women and girls just enjoy themselves without some creep standing next to them?. If Swiftie allows her events to be taken over by the creeps she won’t be earning 2 billion on her next tour. Let young women and girls enjoy themselves in a safe and secure environment.
nice one roberto – this is now a musical thread, and given the nights activities, profoundly appropriate :
Taylor Swift … her songs are okay, I suppose, but why she is so -massive- I don’t get; all the wee lassies totally identify with her (a wildly erroneous comparison for the dumpy wee chipmunks compared to a tall, blond, aryan goddess) – and that is all that counts, because it’s money, pure gold. Swift’s wee pal, Alana Del Ray, now she is much more interesting I think, haunting voice.
I hear the Taliban are providing the half-time show, looking out for – immorality, immodesty, and hidden bags of skag. Could be a fun night. Swift does 30 changes of burka so I am told.
If Swift got the second 45 minutes against Binland, it couldn’t do any harm (from what I have seen so far), get those long legs moving down the wing. I am sure if she scores a goal all the lads will give her a firm handshake; the communal bath will be fun afterwards.
Pop songs, how hard can it be : take the chords of G major, go intro verse chorus verse chorus middle 8 verse chorus outro; simple lyrics, someone you fancy, getting your heart broken, and a big simple chorus to sing along. Let’s go … brainstorm …
my baby don’t love me
but I have my buckfast
buckfast love buckfast love
all I need is buckfast
she snorted my lines
and fucked my dad
and I was SAAAAAAD
but I had
BUCKFAST Love
BUCKFAST LOO-OOOOVE
then I’ll radiohead it up a bit with some weird funky chords and do a bit of a sneaky turnaround, to keep it moving. Secondary dominants, I heard they’re good, whatever they are – some jazz nonce said it.
that is now a published song BTW, with automatic copyright; if Ed Sheeran tries to nick it, I’ll sue the shit out of him and donate the proceeds to the indy movement, wings and alba, and hamas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCi_irINkBc
buster bloodvessel composed this magic piece of balladry, drunk, with a can of carlsberg SPECIAL BREW in hand – all I want is a barrel of you
and lou reed “perfect day” is about the SKAG
as is the La’s “there she goes”
this is class though …
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihpcCOxEwQk
I don’t understand why the bbc lets Farage on the debate tonight and they don’t let Galloway on. At least he is an MP and has around 300 candidates standing
This place is just jam packed with creative geniuses!
Geri @ 3.06pm
‘SNP 1&2 results in 1 million votes that would otherwise go to another genuine indy party discarded right into the bin’
You appear to be conflating two separate issues, Geri, and it is not clear whether the 1&2 criticism applies to all parties, or just SNP, or if the ‘problem’(?) with 1&2 has always existed, or just since 2021.
The problem is the system, which uses a mishmash of both FPTP (73 constituency seats) and D’Hondt (56 AMS list seats). However, by applying the D’Hondt divisor AFTER the FPTP allocation and BEFORE allocating a single list seat, it creates a vague system that is open to misuse.
Sometime around March, Rev Stu did an article – I can’t recall its title – where the first of his links was to a report by Tom Peck. In his report, Peck included a reference to Ian Smart, who was instrumental in creating the AMS system for HR, and Smart acknowledged the unforeseen flaw in the system that allowed SNP voters to game the vote and allow Greens to get 8 seats and be part of the administration.
Lamenting on the fact that 1 million votes coulda/woulda/shoulda gone to Alba misses the point: it was never going to happen, and even if it did, Sturgeon, with 62 seats, was NEVER going to parly with Salmond.
The reality is that 200K SNP voters put their list vote elsewhere in 2021. Where did they go?
Well, the Green constituency vote was 35K, list vote 220K, so the maths is not difficult: therefore it can be assumed that most of the 1 million wasted votes would have gone to Green, not Alba.
It is a simple twist of fate that in May 2021, the vast majority of Independence supporters were still unaware of the unfolding disaster that is SNP/Green and gave SNP a HR record 1.29M votes.
The incredible trajectory we (Indy) were on from 2003 onwards shows that we were soon going to be winning over 50% of the vote, a majority in HR without a single list seat, and exposing this scam system which would at that point be shredding around 1.5million second votes: –
2003 – 23.8% (9seats), 456K votes
2007 – 32.9% (21seats), 664K votes
2011 – 45.4% (53seats), 903K votes
2016 – 46.5% (59 seats), 1.06M votes
2021 – 47.7% (62 seats), 1.29M votes
The above constituency votes show the betrayal that is SNP. The electorate voting 1&2 in good faith is NOT the problem.
The latest Redfield/Wilton poll (June 2nd) shows that once again, Scotland would vote against Indy. As does the Savanta Poll taken May 28th. https://www.whatscotlandthinks.org/opinion-polls/scotland-poll-results/
Doubtless the Moonhowlers will say that these polls are rigged by shadowy foreign interests; or that they’re the results of hundreds of thousands of Americans moving into Aberdeenshire; or that only the votes of “ethnic” Scots, whatever that means (echoes of 1930s Germany!), should be counted.
Ebok
Thanks for the breakdown.
Scots do not need to echo 1930s Germany, we can Watch live Westminster parliament
Geri
Ignored
says:
7 June, 2024 at 2:57 pm
Rob…’
Dear Geri,
I was about to fire into a rant in response to Rob’s post detailing the economic, institutional and social destruction wrought on us by the dominant political philosophy of these pat 40yrs, starting with a the Thatcher and ending with bairn tampering/money culture/woman hating bullshit we have now but you sorted it in about 3 words
Ebok
Ignored
says:
7 June, 2024 at 9:22 pm
Geri @ 3.06pm
oh fuck off Ebok. I Alba had go the list votes Sturgeon would have been exposed for fuck sake. That is what we are waiting for right now for fuck sake
Campbell Clansman
Ignored says:
7 June, 2024 at 10:56 pm
Doubtless the Moonhowlers will say that these polls are rigged by shadowy foreign interests….
Doubtless the tedious Unionists still don’t have the guts to put it to a vote. Such is their laughable “confidence” in victory, they just run away and hide.
Despite all the whining, they still can’t even articulate a single positive argument for keeping the Union, not one, just endlessly sneer at those who want to see Scotland better served by an Independent Government, and Scots kids having a more prosperous future without fkg off to Australia.
Change the record, “Clansman”, …lol. Another Unionist “dressing up” as a Scot, like that creep Cole Hamilton, declaring Scotland should never exist, while prancing around disgracing a kilt. Clan Hypocrite plaid I think it was.
Say something interesting for once. I bet that’s as big a challenge for you as presenting a positive case for the Union. We’ll aw be auld and grey afore that happens eh?
Ebok
Ignored says:
7 June, 2024 at 9:22 pm
The problem is the system,….
Step back for the wider perspective Ebok.
The Scotland Act and rigmarole of the Vichy Holyrood Assembly are wholly inconsistent with Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty. Neither can boast constitutional legitimacy. That is the problem with the system; the whole system is a rigged con, usurping powers it has no right to command.
Breeks, my comments have obviously struck a nerve. Prompting your usual chorus of random bile.
I give statistics. You don’t. I’m pleased with the contrast.
GM @ 1.49am
You are missing the point, GM, and pontificating without being objective is dangerous. Alba might have won a few list seats in 2021 if more voters did as I and many other commenters on here suggested – not voting on the constituency vote and voting for Alba on the list.
The fact is that Alba scored miserably in the HR elections and continued that trend in the 2022 council elections as well as numerous by-elections since, and wishful thinking cannot change voter outcomes.
The danger in promoting what is effectively cheating a flawed system is that unionists can also play that game. If, for instance, Labour were to come to ‘an arrangement’ with Lib Dem in ’26 and asked its supporters to vote Lab1/LD2, or the reverse where LDem were strong, there would be an outcry, and rightly so.
But if that doesn’t wash with you, you’re in luck. In an interview with Andrew Neil the other day, Alex outlined his strategy for HR 2026: SNP1/Alba2!
He once again reaffirmed his belief that there are STILL ‘a lot of good people’ in SNP’s HR contingent, that Alba hope to get 15% and 20+ list seats, that SNP could get 40+ seats, and a coalition could emerge.
The downside is obvious – you’re expected to vote SNP1.
Are we levelled up yet?
David Hannah: “War has returned to Europe by all of these tossers like Macron – a horrible French man – And Joe Biden. Who appeared to sit down on a chair that wasn’t there. Until Doctor Jill – his wife – lead him away.”
That BS was put out by the GOP in the USA where the full video shows that he was sitting down in a chair that was there, about 3-4 seconds before everyone else sat down in the chairs that were also there. The full video of the D-Day commemoration is up on youtube. It’s about 1hr 40m long I think and about halfway into it you can see the little bit that was selectively edited in full.
It’s a great distraction from their presumptive candidate being a convicted felon.
I hate political hit piece lies especially when there’s enough truth in politics to hit people, without resorting to made-up bullshit.
Kirsty is just one of many SNP MPs who were sent down to London on a pro independence vote, then spent five years sitting on their ever fattening lardy lazy arses doing sweet F all for independence.
If elected to London again, they will do exactly the same. AGAIN!
I mean, think about where else could a complete nobody like Kirsty get such a salary plus pension, plus expenses, plus free flights to London, plus a free second home in London?? Certainly no employer in Scotland offers it.
These people in the SNP are complete and utter frauds. Folk who DO want independence, and DO see it as a priority, voted them into power, only to be betrayed.
They go scurrying off to London, and very quickly realise just what a cushy job it is. Swanning about in London, privileged access to things, subsidized meals, subsidized drink, living it up big. Soon, they forget why they are even there.
In a few years time, they will all be able to retire and ‘write novels’ or whatever, and wax lyrical in memoirs about their ‘fight‘ in the independence cause, but ordinary Scots will still be trapped in England’s vice-like colonial grip, wondering why we are STILL not independent and free of England’s abuse.
This link includes a picture of English soldiers tying two Palestinian Arab prisoners to the front of a train to provide human shields.
Haven’t the English politicians been condemning the Palestinians for taking human shield prisoners.
It seems that dirty inhuman fighting was a lesson given by the English.
They can also boast about keeping the Irish at bay as they watched one million starve to death.
In the Boar War the established the first detention camps where they let captive men, women and children die of starvation.
Later, in order to speed thing up they introduced diseases into the camp.
The English really don’t get to condemn any other nation at war.
England started the process of making Palestine a prisoner.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936%E2%80%931939_Arab_revolt_in_Palestine
The quote from Blackman really goes to the heart of it. Sturgeon actively stuffed the SNP full of people who see no value in independence. It means nothing to them. Until their cushy number comes under threat.
I really hope this fraud gets thrown out of office. She disgusts me.
You look at them all and near enough all of them are the same as Blackman. Total frauds and grifters. I have zero doubt were Labour still the ascendent party they would all be in that (and many probably were and will be again) scrounging a living saying whatever insincere shite they thought their paymasters wanted to hear.
Sturgeon very deliberately opened the sluice gates of the political sewer and let them all in and then actively replaced the Salmond rear guard with her own toxic, vile, cretin army.
They are as dumb as they are toxic. And they deserve to be wiped out. I pray they are.
Campbell Clansman @ 10:56 pm
““ethnic” Scots, whatever that means”
Ethnicity is what helps define ‘a people’, along with their culture, language, heritage, history, common suffering, and sense of being a nation.
‘Ethnic oppression’ is a feature of colonial rule, which is also described as ‘hateful racism’ (Cesaire). This helps explain why an independence movement ‘depends on the solidarity of the oppressed ethnic group’ (Hechter). Hence ethnicity is a ‘determinant of independence’:
https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/08/15/determinants-of-independence-ethnicity/
Campbell Clansman said;
“Doubtless the Moonhowlers will say that these polls are rigged by shadowy foreign interests…”
Those Moonhowlers are the sovereigns of their own country; that is a formal constitutional fact. Any issue of constitutional importance regarding their country is rightfully their decision alone to make.
As the sovereign owners of Scotland under their own Treaty-guaranteed constitution they are fully entitled to decide for themselves what a franchise should be on a constitutional matter, and if you want them to act generously and adopt some measure of dilution of their sovereignty via a less restrictive franchise, it would probably be helpful not to yell at them for being bigoted racist Moonhowlers, for a start.
If you want a more relaxed franchise, then make that actual case and put it to them! If you want a fully open franchise, then make that actual case and put it to them! Don’t lie to them, don’t shout abuse at them, and don’t insist they must comply.
If you ask them nicely and respectfully, you may be pleasantly surprised at the outcome. If you don’t, you will not be surprised at all.
Wherever Scoto-Norman Robert de Brus, his authentick monicker, was conceived he was no anglo lover.
From another source the prospective for Linlithgow states, independence is not an end in itself…..as fatuous as the woke claim Robert was a notorious slave trader.
OMG..THEY are everywhere, get the bug repellent.
The problem ethnic particularists like Alf have of course is that they have no evidence that the Scottish electorate or the independence movement share their xenophobic views. It may indeed be true that in 2014 52% of native born Scots voted “Yes”, and that it was the No votes of “New Scots” that were decisive in delivering a “No” result.
The issue they can’t (or more likely don’t want) to address is whether their views command any significant support. Although they are happy to rely on the outcome of a single study from Edinburgh University about the 2014 (for which I understand the data is not available), it seems odd that they have failed to commission any polls for themselves to back up their chosen way forward.
Why it’s almost as if they aren’t really that confident of their cause isn’t it readers…? Or is it that they know they have so few supporters that they couldn’t raise the funds for polls. Odd that if their views are gaining such traction.
I’d have expected the Salvo and Liberation folks to be trumpeting their follower numbers, issuing regular polls to back up their case, and commissioning reports and studies from non-partisan legal and constitutional authorities in support of their case. Perhaps I’ve missed them…?
@Turabdin 9.13am
Don’t get the moonhowlers started bud: when they find out The Bruce wasn’t ethnically pure enough and might have been born in England they’ll blow a gasket! After all if New Scots today aren’t really Scottish, how come Norman-Scots like the De Bruis family are Scottish….? 🙂
@Xaracen 9.07am
If you want a more relaxed franchise, then make that actual case and put it to them! If you want a fully open franchise, then make that actual case and put it to them! Don’t lie to them, don’t shout abuse at them, and don’t insist they must comply.
The case has been made, and is accepted by the majority, as it was in the run up to the 2014 indyref. Fully open franchises are the norm in self determination referendums. Many indeed have been MORE open than the one we used in 2014.
The onus is on nativists to demonstrate why the existing franchise needs to be changed (hard fail so far by the way) and then to persuade the majority to accept it (hard fail number 2) and lastly to have that included in law (never going to happen, soz).
You’re not being lied to, you’re being confronted with your own bigotry and xenophobia, for that is all that it is. It has no political, moral or popular support.
The international community is never going to accept the arguments of the Scottish particularists that we are uniquely special out of all the other cases of self determination, and are therefore free to use a franchise not used elsewhere since 1945.
Excluding several hundred thousand Scottish residents as a result of an ethnic purity test won’t be accepted by the international community, and it isn’t accepted by Scots either. Get back to us when you can demonstrate a clear majority of Scots have suddenly accepted your tartan Faragism.
ALFBAIRD 08:55
ETHNICITY, springs from a sense of difference and in that a large measure of what is unique to a people and their culture. It is both intuitive and rational.
The global «culture» in its determination to create bland sameness is inimical to such difference, perceiving it as a threat to «order».
People of my age are beginning to value that «difference», unfortunately there is a tendency to focus on the on trend peripherals, climate, gender etc and not on the heart of the matter.
My own sense of ethnicity survives because others, and now me, keep it living in their heads and hearts despite centuries of efforts to erase it from collective memory. We are unlikely to have a country of our own but the idea of one endures.
Scotland is NOT in that unfortunate situation.
He’s holding up his GRC.
A referendum is usually needed before a nation can secede to become independent.
Since Scotland is denied a referendum (now and forever?) it is necessary to demonstrate the will of the people by a different democratic method. That is the advice of Professor McCrocodile whois well up in the UK hierarchy with Human Rights as his subject.
It is ill advised for those who do not have the qualifications and experience of the professor to question his judgement.
Were Scotland to hold a referendum what is set out in this bit of research might apply.
Moeckli_Reimann_IndependenceReferendums
See 4.3 for the franchise fannies
I was thinking the other day how I now rank Sturgeon far beyond Thatcher in terms of the harm she has inflicted on Scotland.
What surprised me as well was that upon reflection I discovered I ‘liked’ Thatcher more as well. Or at least I despised her less than Sturgeon, and by quite a long way.
That is quite a remarkable feat for a leader of the SNP. We all know what she really is of course but still… she is totally despicable.
Campbell Clansman
Ignored
says:
8 June, 2024 at 4:08 am
Breeks, my comments have obviously struck a nerve.
They really, really haven’t. I don’t even remember what you wrote. Lol.
After 10 years of dodging the question, we all know “striking a nerve” and being a nuisance is all that BritNats aim for. No surprise really, because making any positive case for the Union is just so far beyond them. But hope remains… One day. Ha! Ha! Ha!
“Fully open franchises are the norm”
Did yeh forget the UK franchise?
How about the Irish reunification one?
Switching threads won’t help you avoid the question. D’oh.
Breeks
Well said.
Ten years they’ve had to find a case for the union. They haven’t.
They could put their money where their mouth is & back a referendum – they haven’t.
They craw about 2014 like it was some sort of victory for the union – it wasn’t.
Lest we forget a huge chunk of those NO voters were expecting Devo Max, EU membership & near “Federalism” They got nowt but a good kicking from tricksters who insulted them for being as dumb as fck & the were getting absolutely nothing less than an hour after the final count & Cameron took to the Dowdy street steps to put the boot in.
NOT to YES voters – we fully expected it.
But to NO voters. The real losers. They’re rewards for their loyalty was to be shat on from a great height. I bet they’re angry – as shown B the yellow map in GE2015.
Clanger needs to get his hands on the state of the union poll. You know, the one Westminster locked away. That’d give a far more honest report & why they won’t allow another referendum. They’d lose.
Farage on the rise. Fascism is England getting closer by the day. And what do the SNP do?
Blow it as usual.
“A referendum is usually needed before a nation can secede to become independent.”
Maybe so, but if there was no union in the first place and we know there wasn’t a legitimate union between Scotland and England, then once the lies and the deceit of the illegal union are widely exposed as they are being now, one could say that why would Scots need a vote a vote to leave something that never LEGALLY existed in the first place.
Presenting the evidence of the lie to the international community as well as the domestic one would ultimately lead to the negating of any legally non-existing union, and Scotland would return to its original status pre-1707.
So what’s stopping that from happening now, well we have a government in Scotland SNP that doesn’t want that to happen, they are blocking any route to dissolving the illegal union, that and many other reason is why we need to remove them from office.
Salvo, Liberation etc can present the evidence home and abroad that the union is a lie, the foreign media in Scotland which passes as Scottish, will never give airtime to the likes of Salvo, for they want the status quo to remain intact so getting the info out will take time.
I’m hoping once the legalities of the situation are presented to the international communities by say Salvo that we can have the illegal union nullified without whatever government is in Bute House at the time due to our popular sovereignty.
Dickie
It’s been on the rise for a long time. BoJo put it into turbo mode when he took over & started to change parliament procedures & every independent government body that keeps government in check & he did it mainly on the fly & with a complicit media looking the other way.
Sunak added to it when he took over.
England is just aching for a Farage to finish the job.
So Sprake Andythustra – aka ALBA MAN
ALBA MAN’s USP = Vote for us , we’re a wee bit better than SNP .
We insist on using the same frangipani that lost us the 2014 Ref ; but that’s cool , ’cause being seen to be ” inclusive ” by , well , all the same cunts that are taking us to the brink of suicidal confrontation with an * enemy * that the same cunts created ; the same cunts that are 100% ” invested ” in the ” Gender ” lunacy ; the same cunts that are intent in suppressing any/every dissenting opinion ; the same cunts , brothers & sisters that have nothing but contempt for you , who are actively working against your interests – is far more important than liberating our country from 300+ years of oppressive Anglo domination .
ALBA MAN wants Scotland to be * independent * so he can then go knocking on doors begging to be allowed entry into every (true ) independence- destroying entity on the Planet .
Yes , Sir , apparently Scotland’s freedom is of so little value it can be given away in exchange for membership of assorted clubs ; clubs run by unelected clowns/psychos paid a fortune to find ever-more exotic ways to fuck you up .
ALBA MAN considers this a price worth paying .
Maybe because ALBA MAN doesn’t have a fucking clue what Freedom really means and – when it comes down to it – doesn’t give a fuck about anything/anybody but his own fatuous sense of * virtue * .
It’s all kinda academic anyway – ’cause ALBA MAN will achieve fuck-all . Independence ? ahahahahahahahahahaha
If people like Andythustra are truly representative of ALBA , then we have to conclude – ALBA Ist Tod .
TURABDIN @9:41 am
“My own sense of ethnicity survives because others, and now me, keep it living in their heads and hearts despite centuries of efforts to erase it from collective memory. We are unlikely to have a country of our own but the idea of one endures.
Scotland is NOT in that unfortunate situation.”
Not yet, anyway, though thars nae doot oor land has progressively been taken from us, and we are made mere ‘bystanders’ in this process, such is the nature of colonialism.
However, your point further reflects the fact that self-determination is primarily about a defined ‘people’ and ethnic group rather than necessarily a particular place per se, i.e. a land which that ethnic group may or may not still inhabit. Colonialism does involve removing and/or replacing ‘a people’ (and their identity, via assimilation), or worse, as we see in the mid east.
Andy Ellis said;
8 June, 2024 at 9:17 am
“The problem ethnic particularists like Alf have of course is that they have no evidence that the Scottish electorate or the independence movement share their xenophobic views.”
I own my own house; it is not xenophobic of me to insist that I alone am entitled to decide what wallpaper I put up and what colour of paint to apply, and how the garden should be laid out. My neighbours may disagree with my decisions, but they have no entitlement to impose their own decisions on me and my house, precisely because I am its legal owner.
The same argument is true of the sovereign Scots in their own country because, constitutionally, they literally own it.
Your ‘xenophobe’ meme is thoroughly bogus, and deliberately insulting. Why am I not in the least surprised?
And;
8 June, 2024 at 9:35 am
“The case has been made, and is accepted by the majority, as it was in the run up to the 2014 indyref.”
And how exactly did ‘the majority’ accept that case? The majority of whom, exactly? I don’t remember getting to vote for that franchise!
“Fully open franchises are the norm in self determination referendums. Many indeed have been MORE open than the one we used in 2014.”
No, they are a norm, not the norm! And the UN decolonisation committee disagrees with you on the matter.
In addition, in Scotland the legal and constitutional fact of the formal sovereignty of the Scots makes most ‘norms’ irrelevant.
“The onus is on nativists to demonstrate why the existing franchise needs to be changed”
In Scotland the legal and constitutional fact of the formal sovereignty of the Scots is precisely why the existing franchise needs to be changed, because it doesn’t respect those things at all.
The nativists’ sovereignty renders the existing franchise unconstitutional, therefore the onus is really on those touting that franchise to justify it, and have it legally passed in line with Scotland’s constitution.
And in case you’ve forgotten, let me remind you that not all laws passed by Westminster since 1707 are constitutionally and legally valid in the Union. Only those passed by joint agreement of both England’s AND Scotland’s formal representatives are legitimate Union laws. Laws passed on English MP majorities but without Scottish MP majorities are unilateral and thus fraudulent.
“You’re not being lied to, you’re being confronted with your own bigotry and xenophobia”
Yeah, right! You haven’t even bothered to justify your abusive attribution of my ‘own bigotry and xenophobia’, you mouthy bastard!
You really haven’t got that solid rubber head of yours round those concepts of sovereignty and constitutions, even simple ownership, let alone basics like honesty and integrity, have you?
@Alf 11.31 am
If the idea of Scotland was only ever about ethnic Scots, it would never have included the Gaeltacht, or the Norn speaking Northern Isles would it? Scotland was always a multi-ethnic polity.
I’m away back to the ‘Off Topic Bottle Rockets’ thread.
It’s franchise free over there.
Nae ‘Clangers’ or ‘Chaserito’ with his chaseritis.
“you mouthy bastard!”
LMAO!
That’s a ten fae me.. bravo!
Voted YES and all my life only ever voted SNP but for first time I I have no enthusiasm for a General Election. Starmer is going to have a majority of UK seats and SNP are worse than useless. I’m annoyed at the rare SNP MPs with integrity (Joanna Cherry) still sticking with such a bunch of numpties and giving then credence. She should have joined Alba years ago as should any others who had any gumption. So genuine question, Stu, if you were in my position, who would you vote for, if anyone? Or would you spoil your ballot in protest?
It is morally indefensible for the English to have any kind of say on the Scots self determination; it is nothing to do with them, and it is not in their gift. Post indy they get a choice to stay or to go; I expect most will be offered citizenship, though a select few might be deported as “hostile aliens” and “agents of a foreign power”. Some will whine, as they do, but then just get on with it.
– to offer, let’s be plain – your historical ENEMIES, most of whom are themselves INTENSELY BIGOTED ETHNO-NATIONALISTS, e.g. “little englanders”, with narcissistic delusions of their own place in the world and their own history – a de facto veto, i.e. 20% voting as a bloc (80% or more, unionist) – is the most insanely stupid self sabotage. Let’s be clear – if you got cheated once, that’s on them (world record, at the time, postal voting numbers – WTF – are we all sick?), but if you let them do it repeatedly, that’s on you.
Over in that pacific paradise, the kanaks know the score and are at least doing something about it. The Scots are too passive – and when you have an enemy who just does as he pleases to you, thinks he can get away with it and suffer no consequences to himself – what do you think will happen? Maybe 5 years from now, the middle english, will finally get the “acceptable fascism” they cry out for; it looks like the tories are set to be wiped out, but there is a “new” tory party, just ready to go, waiting in the wings. It won’t be better for us, since we have been partially shielded these years by the incompetence of ukgov, who can’t really do anything much (e.g. imagine a Scotland linked by high speed rail, now only 1 hour away from London; they would all be up here, and we’d be fucked).
The whole world is, again, getting absolutely sick of the English, while we put up with them. But first we need to get rid of the “unreliable supporters” among ourselves – first up, it looks like the SNP is going down, which is a good thing; as Alf Baird has pointed out the “sell out” phase of national liberation is a known phenomenon, it always happens, and after that … you either win, or you lose. At least we are moving towards something.
Scots followed popular Sovereignty.
Doncha think the Scots should’ve been consulted on the 2014 franchise? It’s a bit rich wishing to return to it while spouting politicians will just decide for us.
I hindsight Salmond should maybe have put that to public assemblies beforehand & consulted the public for feedback on how the YES campaign should be conducted. It’d have helped highlight the obvious trip wires before the vote was even held if nothing else.
As far as I’m aware this was conducted in Westminster with English MPs who 1. Aren’t Scottish. 2. Have hee haw authority on the Scots constitution or over sovereign Scots.
@Sam 10.13 am
It’s on 3.3 not 4.3 in the Vidmar & Reimar paper you quote, and unsurprisingly the section quoted supports the civic nationalist position, not the xenophobic nationalist one. Quote follows (footnote references removed for clarity):
As regards international law, recent practice suggests
that a franchise confined to the sub-community which would eventually secede is sufficient. Membership of this sub-community cannot be defined by reference to citizenship, as the state in question is yet to be created. Instead, place of birth and place of residence are the key criteria
available for voter qualification.
That resident natives should be allowed to vote in independence referendums is rather uncontentious. More controversial is the right to vote of non-resident
natives, non-native residents and non-native non residents.
Recent examples of independence referendums relied chiefly on residence as the decisive factor. The Human Rights Committee,
interpreting Article 25 of the ICCPR in the light of the right to self-determination, regarded nativity and residence as reasonable criteria to prove voters’ ties to a given territory, as long as the residence period required is not excessively long.
The Venice Commission has criticised the 24-month residence requirement applied in the case of the 2006 Montenegrin referendum as excessive; its Code of Good Practice on Referendums recommends a period of not more than six months.
Note in particular the finding that even the unusual 24 month residence criteria used in Montenegro’s referendum was criticised by the Venice Commission as EXCESSIVE, yet the moonhowlers regularly insist on periods far in excess of this, or even want to exclude ANY non natives.
Happy to help!
“Viridarius
Ignored says:
7 June, 2024 at 1:27 pm
Robert the Bruce, King of Scots (1306 — 1329) born 11 July 1274 in Writtle, near Chelmsford, Essex.”
Bollocks. Message ends.
“The case has been made, and is accepted by the majority”
And what majority is that, exactly? the majority of those who were asked? Who was asked? I don’t remember being asked at all. What I remember very vividly is the majority of those at my place of work (over one hundred, by the way) and circle of acquaintances being totally shocked that people who were not scots were given the option to trash their choice. Most of the people from the EU at my place of work refused to participate because they thought it was not a matter for them to take part in. I also distinctively remember how some of them, even after they had left the UK and lived elsewhere but because they owned a holiday property in Scotland, were given the opportunity to vote. You do not see this in any other country of the world. Either you are a resident on the country and pay taxes there, or you are not. The franchise of Scotland’s indyref in 2014 was totally ridiculous and, in my personal view, specifically designed to stop a Yes win because that would have completely kiboshed their brexshit.
“Fully open franchises are the norm in self determination referendums”
You made that up. I do not recall a single referendum in any EU country that had such ridiculously open franchise. As a matter of fact, the EU referendum in the UK DID NOT have that open franchise. This has been pointed out to you many, many, many times already, but you refuse to listen and refuse to provide evidence to credibly back your stance.
“The onus is on nativists to demonstrate why the existing franchise needs to be changed”
No. the onus is on those who are determined to frustrate the right of the Scottish people to self-determine by imposing of them a franchise that is specifically designed to frustrate their pro-independence vote.
The evidence is already there: Native scots voted for independence in 2014 but their vote was frustrated for the incomers and that violated their right to self-determination under international law. Therefore the onus is very clearly on those who, knowing that now, are still hoping to continue to violate their rights by imposing the same strategy again.
“You’re being confronted with your own bigotry and xenophobia”
You are clearly projecting. You purport to impose a deliberately open franchise on the Scottish people to knowingly deprive them of their fundamental right to self-determination, but you do not advocate for the exact same deprivation at UK level. That is, in my view, a spectacularly clear example of xenophobia and I would dare say racism because you are seeking to deliberately discriminate against the Scottish people when exercising their rights to self-determination.
“It has no political, moral or popular support”
In the limited context of your narrow and self-serving mind, perhaps. In my mind and that of most others in the circles where I move, the precise opposite is true.
“The international community is never going to accept the arguments of the Scottish particularists…”
Oh, please don’t be absurd and drop the pretendy informed act and faux moral high stance. Great Britain is the result of an extant, international treaty between two sovereign states, Scotland and England. You end the treaty, you end the UK, simple. It is about international law, not about your ramblings and hyperbole around nativists and a new made up word today, “particularists”, whatever the hell that means.
“Get back to us when you can demonstrate a clear majority of Scots have suddenly accepted your tartan Faragism”
Who is “us”? You and MacFace? What makes you think you are in any position of authority in the matter or that you have any right whatsoever to determine what matters people can express their views on or not? It is about time you come down from the cloud of your own perceived self-importance.
“Tartan Faragism”
Goodness me, has the propagandist Gordon Brown been training you on hyperbolic nonsense to subjugate the Scottish people?
Your position is incongruous. If you stipulate that Scotland has to follow a “self-determination” franchise applicable only to colonies without the power to establish a citizenship registry, then you are openly admitting that Scotland is such colony.
Well I do not admit that Scotland is a colony. I admit 100% that it is being treated as one due to the exquisite arrogance and self-importance of the English crown, due to betraying propagandists like Brown and due to the complete ineffectiveness and lack of interest from the Scottish political class to stop it. There is nothing, nothing, stopping Scotland’s government to initiate a citizenship census in Scotland. If Gibraltar and the Falklands could manage it, so can Scotland.
I do not recall a single colony in the world that is bound to the imperialistic power by an international treaty between the imperialistic power and the colony. If you read Hansard, the MPs there recognised at the time that the “treaty of union” with Ireland was not really an international treaty, but rather domestic legislation because Ireland was a domain of the Crown of England. Domestic legislation is not subdued to international law.
The case of Scotland is different. If Scotland invokes its rights under international law to terminate a treaty whose fundamental conditions have been repeatedly violated in the course of 300 years, it does not matter what “the international community” says or does not say. It is a perfectly legal procedure.
Was Montenegro a country in its own right? In a union?
Or was it a principality looking for independence?
24 months is tame.
Have you answered yet on the restrictions on the UK franchise or are you still ignoring that question?
Effijy 8:25
It’s a historical fact that everybody behaved like pigs in the Boar War.
ALFBAIRD
ETHNICITY is a complex matter, place, genetics, history, language(s), the neighbours etc are all instrumental.
It ought not to be exclusive though. In my «ethnicities» case some of the most relevant work on the Syriac language and dialects has been done by concerned «outsiders».
The cavalier attitude to Scotland’s ethnicities, as exemplified by the rulers over the centuries, is a condition i recognize.
There are riches to be mined but you need to be tough & determined to access them.
Politicians, with their short termism, do not have the stamina for such a task. And, quite honestly, there are few votes in it
If left to them the seven wonders etc would still be at the committee stage. What never was you are unlikely to miss.
Mia
Well said.
As David Davies said regards Brexit – there isn’t a treaty in the entire world that requires a sovereign nation to seek permission from the other side to leave it.
We’ve also had SA at the UN lay clear international law. The colonisers have no rights & they have even less rights to impose “rules” on *nativists* wishing to leave it.
@Andy Ellis 11:48
Excellent point.
That’s why Professor Baird has to write off Gaels and Gaelic Speakers as second-class Scots – the dupes and lackeys of the colonisers.
You probably won’t agree with me on this, but I think making language central to the concept of Scottish Indy is likely to see Scotland fracture along linguistic lines. As with the “Independent but ruled from Brussels” fallacy, if we develop a taste for Indy, some of us might well develop an antipathy to being forced to speak and write a language that isn’t our own.
Parts of Scotland where the majority want to use their own language should be free to do so.
EllisMainBot on overtime now, need a reset it’s even talking to itself.
“Distract, contradict, divert, cut & paste, misinform, rinse, repeat.”
@Mia 12:41
Your time and effort would be far better employed finding 100 Scots willing and determined to stand on a plebiscitary ticket.
“Vote a majority of us in, and we will immediately tell London we have a mandate from the Scottish people to sever the Union”.
It certainly won’t hinder things if they have a few other policies thought through too, but that’s all the message most of the pro-Indy segment of the electorate need to hear and will be interested in.
Can you imagine how exciting the current GE campaign would be right now if this had been sorted? Something like 15 months since Regan first mooted it. SFA done in execution.
So a golden opportunity squandered.
Another golden opportunity coming up in 23 months time. Is that one to be squandered too?
The position of a Civic Nationalism entering Scotland and repeated a lot by one person on here regularly, mr bully boy,
is a interesting theory, and it is only a “theory”, but being experimented on in Great Britain today, more german and Globalist in its attitude of Immigration that does not need to assimulate into its Hosts Country,
Civic Nationalism cannot be related to a specific place, its culture or The Homeland.
Great news breaking from the ME – 4 hostages freed – all alive and well.
Tragically they were embedded within the usual layers of innocent human shields by their terrorist captors, so many collateral casualties too.
It’s a free country so I’m prepared to say that if it was any of mine being held hostage like that, I’d want my government to do whatever it took to get them back.
Other posters are free to claim that they would prefer to leave their loved ones to rot, citing colonialism, international law, the sainted ANC, etc.
Still other posters are free to believe them, or think they’re full of shit.
Civic Nationalism It is a theory of mish-mashed thoughts glued together to place nations in a box,
A pandoras box that can be opened to add any other nations nationality with no requirement for them to assimulate into their Hosts Country,
It will automatically lead to dissolving a nations beliefs, Culture and sense of belonging to a Homeland,
People in Scotland have an instinctive intuition not to follow the theoretical Experiment of becoming a Civic Scotland even if they do not recognise the foundational roots of that ideology,
And as much as it is being pushed down our throats here on Wings by The gentleman calling Scottish independence people “Native Moon howlers” while Scots instinctively hold onto the knowledge their is a difference between a Ethnic nation holding onto its Culture and language and Land and that of a aggregate civic nation ,
The experimental Global Civic Nationalism introduced to These Islands by Boat loads of immigration is not being accepted by the long standing Ethnic peoples England, and the Irish also find it repulsive to their Ethnic population,
It always creates a sense of being treated as a second class person and nation politically and financially on your own native soil with a new interpretation on a Colonial take over of your Country by elites idealogical experiments to dissolve ethnic national races.
@Andy Ellis
part of 3.4.1
“Although the existing state practice is not particularly rich (yet), one may tentatively conclude that a rule of customary international law has crystallised, according to which secession is only lawful if it has been approved in a referendum.
105 A state declaring independence
without – or even against – the people’s will expressed in a referendum would, as a general rule, not be recognised.
In the Western Sahara Advisory Opinion, the ICJ suggested that there may be instances
where holding an independence referendum is ‘totally unnecessary, in view of special circumstances’.106 Such special circumstances may exist where it is obvious and not contested what the people’s will is. Kosovo, where a popular consultation had been held in 1991 but not prior to the declaration of independence in 2008, might be a case in point, as it was undisputed that virtually all Kosovo Albanians, making up the vast majority of Kosovo’s population,supported independence.107 Some authors have argued that elections may also constitute
a democratic procedure for ascertaining the people’s wishes with regard to a proposed change of sovereignty over a territory, so that an overwhelming vote in favour of a political party supporting independence could replace a referendum.108 However, an election cannot normally be an adequate substitute for a referendum. How people vote in elections will invariably depend on a range of factors, many of which will not be related to the issue of independence.10”
The opening words here are important.A referendum may be necessary but not on every instance.
English PMs repeatedly deny Scotland a second referendum and will continue to do so. They are not stupid enough to openly rule one out forever but that is the intention.
That makes the advice of Prof McCorquodale important.The right of the people of Scotland to determine their own future must be taken in a democratic fashion.Not via Holyrood or Holyrood elections and not by a referendum since there won’t be one.
@Sam 2:24
If you’re ruling out anything related to the wee, pretendy parliament, and ruling out a referendum, but insisting on democratic means, what is left but a plebiscitary role for WM elections?
Why is Scotland wasting this golden opportunity? It will likely be 2029 before the next one!
@Hatey
Find and read McCorquodale’s advice online.
@sam 2.24pm
The opening words here are important.A referendum may be necessary but not on every instance.
I agree. I’ve always said there are many potential paths to indy: a referendum, plebiscitary elections, withdrawal from the “union” parliament & calling of a constituent assembly, a populate uprising, UDI, armed insurrection.
The denial of a second referendum on the same terms as the 2014 precedent can rightly be presented as a demonstration of bad faith by the British nationalists.
The Canadian Supreme Court posited that the failure of one party in a self determination process to negotiate in good faith *could* be held to precipitate and facilitate the acceptance of UDI, but that’s not a universally accepted view in international law, however helpful it might be if we found ourselves having to make that case in future.
Prof McCorquodale’s opinion given in response to Neale Hanvey suggests that the UK Supreme Court was wrong in law to rely on the UK government’s submissions to the ICJ on situations like Kosovo as representing what is in fact the current position on self determination in international law. He then continues to say that – in his view – the answer is for Scots to exercise their right to external self determination via some sort of convention, rather than via referendum or plebiscitary elections.
However, his opinion is just that: it’s his view. It can equally well be argued that, even if you accept his broad argument about the right of the Scots as a people to self determination (which I do), it should be done via an “unauthorised” referendum, or via plebiscitary elections (even though he doesn’t think it should be via Holyrood).
As Prof. McCorquodale says however, there are no easy routes to self determination via secession and while it may be challenging it isn’t impossible.
I tend to agree there isn’t likely to be another referendum, or at least not one on terms the independence movement would or could accept. Acceptable conditions would only be likely to come about when and if Scots nationalists held the balance of power at Westminster, so the SNP well and truly derailed that option for us for a generation or two.
I’d disagree that it isn’t possible or desirable to do it via Holyrood plebiscite route. It would tend to presuppose a fairly united pro-independence movement however, so whether that can be achieved by 2026 remains to be seen.
If not, the only ones to blame will be ourselves. Of course, if the true believers in “cunning plans for indy” can convince the majority that their route is both feasible and will be recognised, then have at it.
Para 32 of McCorquodale’s opinion states:
As the people of Scotland are a people for the purposes of the right to self-determination, they can exercise it. The choice of the means to exercise is for the people to decide and not for the State.
It appears an axiomatic statement for nationalists and those who believe in the right of self determination for peoples. The issue for those who want to use a non referendum or non plebiscitary election route, is demonstrating that the choice of the people on precisely how to exercise their right to self determination ir representative of a majority.
He says:
This could be done, for example, through a convention of elected and diverse representatives from across Scotland with a clear majority in favour.
But that convention and those diverse representatives have to demonstrate their legitimacy and show they represent a clear majority. How is that going to be achieved and (more importantly) how will it be demonstrated with a level of confidence that ensures any declaration of independence is issues is recognised?
Sam.
Over the many years it has become very obvious that all routes for Scotland to declare ” their” right to self- determination have been Stymed through the normal political routes
When Westminster declare “now is not the time” that means it is not a convenient for Westminster parliament,
It translates to,= it is inconvenient for the only other Country member of the Hoax treaty of union to bring this up now when Englands parliament is busy,
This is done with section 30 orders. And referendums for Scotland.
Scotland is treated as though it not part of a treaty at all, and Westminster parliament has breached many articles of that hoax treaty and repealed many of them.
But It also dissolved the Scottish parliament and its constituents and it kingdom agreement from the treaty of union as early as 1707,
And Westminster parliament can no longer claim that a Scottish parliament or its MPs sit in Westminster parliament today, as the devolved Scottish parliament breaches the treaty of union and is in of itself under Westminster legislation,
There has not been a Scottish MP or a represenative parliament constituent member since Scotlands parliament was dissolved from the treaty of union in 1707.
We do not need to ask to leave the 1707 hoax treaty of union, because the parliament of England Sovereignty from 1689 had already absolved, dissolved and voided the Scottish parliament from from being in that agreement by 1707,
It is no longer a issue that Scotland has to put its case forward to leave the treaty of union to other nations,
If Scotland should declare it was not in a treaty of union then The parliament in England would have to take up the financial challenge baton of proving, that they had not placed 1707 Scottish parliament under dissolution, leaving only the parliament of England in the hoax treaty,
There are many instances and issues where the Onus lies on the westminster parliament of England to prove such matters not Scotland,
The treaty of union also dictated the monarch of Britain, but with no treaty of union “the crown agreement also came under dissolution in 1707 when the Scottish parliament ceased to be in union with the parliament of England.
Scotland has been hoodwinked by the Colonial parliament in England for over three hundred years,
We could just declare we are independent since the dissolution of 1707 Scottish parliament from the treaty and we have had no monarch during all this time period,
@Hatey 1.04 pm
I think Alf and those who believe his “Scotland as colony” snake-oil pitch need to be heavily invested in the politics of difference with respect to language, because they think it strengthens what passes for their argument.
If you buy the line that Scotland is a colony and little or no different from India under the Raj or the African colonies pre 1960’s, it helps to posit that the English bogeyman is responsible for de-racinating Scots via various nefarious means, including but not limited to: mass immigration by “settlers” to outnumber native Scots, the extinction of the Scots tongue and replacement with standard English, and the “taking over” of Scots institutions by incomers or the use of Scottish toom tabards who have accepted that their identity is both British and Scottish, or even primarily British rather than Scottish.
Of course, concentrating on an issue like the Scots language (while ignoring or de-prioritising the Gaelic language) has raises its own questions. If we’re going to prioritise and encourage people to use and communicate in Scots – which of course many Scots neither use nor understand, or only do so incompletely – shouldn’t we logically be barring Scots or English language promotion in the Gaeltacht?
I’m all for the promotion and preservation of Gaelic and Scots (in it’s various dialects): I’d even throw in an honourable mention for the revival of Norn in the Northern Isles, but it’s an issue for promotion after we achieve independence, not a central issue in it’s achievement.
@Hatey 1.04 pm
I think Alf and those who believe his “Scotland as colony” snake-oil pitch need to be heavily invested in the politics of difference with respect to language, because they think it strengthens what passes for their argument.
If you buy the line that Scotland is a colony and little or no different from India under the Raj or the African colonies pre 1960’s, it helps to posit that the English bogeyman is responsible for de-racinating Scots via various nefarious means, including but not limited to: mass immigration by “s*ttlers” to outnumber native Scots, the extinction of the Scots tongue and replacement with standard English, and the “taking over” of Scots institutions by incomers or the use of Scottish toom tabards who have accepted that their identity is both British and Scottish, or even primarily British rather than Scottish.
Of course, concentrating on an issue like the Scots language (while ignoring or de-prioritising the Gaelic language) has raises its own questions. If we’re going to prioritise and encourage people to use and communicate in Scots – which of course many Scots neither use nor understand, or only do so incompletely – shouldn’t we logically be barring Scots or English language promotion in the Gaeltacht?
I’m all for the promotion and preservation of Gaelic and Scots (in it’s various dialects): I’d even throw in an honourable mention for the revival of Norn in the Northern Isles, but it’s an issue for promotion after we achieve independence, not a central issue in it’s achievement.
Andy Ellis,
The Scottish parliament came under dissolution in 1707 from the treaty of union by the parliament of England and the Monarch of England.
The 1707 Scottish parliament is not and did not join in a union with the parliament of England
After the Dissolution of the Scottish parliament from the treaty of union in 1707 , that left the parliament of England and the monarch of England sitting in a dissolved treaty by themselves,
The parliament and Monarch of England wrecked and crapped over their own treaty to capture Scotland, by placing the 1707 Scottish parliament under Dissolution in England. making Void the agreement of a parliamentary union and a Monarchy union agreement.
@Geri 12.46 pm
Montenegro was a constituent republic of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. When it (re)gained its independence in 2006 the federation only consisted of Serbia and Montenegro.
24 months residence may be “tame” by your rabid xenophobic standards, but it is most unusual in terms of self determination referendums, as virtually all others have had no residence criteria at all. International best practice and the Venice Commission suggest that even 24 months is too long.
Facts, eh?
The UK franchise is a matter for the UK government. I don’t give a flying fuck at a rolling donut about the UK government. If we don’t like what the UK government does, we need to ensure the majority of Scots grow a pair and have the balls to make sure it’s decisions have no relevance to us in future.
Happy to help!
@Andy Ellis
I would guess that, as I’ve said before,enough local government, trade unions, churches becoming clearly in favour of independence and being seen to be representative of people is a possible means of being able to declare secession.
I think the way to start down that road is to first try to explore broadly how an independent Scotland would be.
Politics that is social democratic, not neoliberal.Power devolved from the centre as much as possible.
Clarity of purpose about the kind of country we think Scotland should be.
A country with a constitution, accountable to its people.
A country that focuses on making things for public good. Jobs that have meaning and purpose.Greater equality.
Public assets should as far as possible be under public not private control.
There’s a lot more to add.
Any leader in Scotland doing that?
Constitution.
A parliament under Dissolution has ceased to be,
It has no members.
It cannot represent its constituents.
And anything in the old parliament under dissolution did is not binding on a future parliament.
Andy Ellis,
Facts are apparently very easily ignored if you want a ethnic culture to be lost when it hosts a non- simulated population like the Civic Scotland you keep suggesting.
Fact,
The Scottish parliament was dissolved from the agreement of the treaty of union by the Parliament of England and the English Monarch when it placed the Scottish parliament under Dissolution in England.
Suggested reading for those who do not know actual facts.
This is the UKs Constitutional writing on matters of a parliament under Dissolution
The Constitution of GB codified and un codified.
(UK) = England
Knowledge is better than deliberate ignorence.
Andy Ellis @ 3:47 pm
“If you buy the line that Scotland is a colony”
Perhaps your personal difficulty accepting that Scottish independence is decolonization is because, ideologically and culturally, and therefore also in terms of your dominant values, you look at this matter from a British and hence colonialist perspective?
“Great news breaking from the ME – 4 hostages freed – all alive and well”
Main aka Hatey.
The Zz-i-o-Mo–ste-rs that you support will only be stopped by force, for they will continue their g–en-o–ci-de until every last P–a-le–st–in-an is either dead or removed from G–azzz–a.
“Is–hell’s military forces have carried out yet another massacre at a refugee camp in central Ga–z–za, killing at least 210 Pa–le–sti–nia—ns before they retrieved four Is—he-ll captives.
Iz–hell forces carried out dozens of airstrikes in the besieged territory on Saturday, particularly in and around the Deir el-Balah and Nuseirat refugee camp in central G–a–zzz-a.
The regime’s forces directly targeted civilians, including children, during “a barbaric and brutal aggression” against Nuseirat camp, G–a-z-z–a government media office said.
They killed at least 210 people and left over 400 others injured”
Sam,
Speaking of Scotland and Succession in the same context is misleading, and places Scotland on a back foot in any possible negotiations that may take place in the future.
However acknowledging that Scotland in not in a treaty of union for the various and mulitude reasons that Scottish people have put forth, over weeks, months, years and decades including such as Salvo, lord Cooper.etc,
Not Recognising that the Scottish people are now beginning to think alternatively with regards the authenticity of the treaty of union as latter information comes to them or is released, the debatable and questionable assertions that there ever was such a treaty of union or that it stands unaltered in the first instance must be at the foremost of any politics related to Scotland,
The Scottish people are ahead of the politicians and their debates and reading between the lines of many comments I see the Scots do not see themselves as a Sucessive state at all,
But rather a nation of people that have been deceived by past generational Colonial propaganda into succumbing to a false set of beliefs surrounding the 1707 treaty of union and Monarchy.
Those whom do not pay heed to this could see the Sovereign people of Scotland going in the opposite direction to mantras and false politics by declaring their they are already A Sovereign nation As the two parliaments are not joined and did not join in 1707, and That the present Monarch is not the Monarch of Scotland,
These words have already been said allowed when Charles came to Scotland,
Politics, is divided between old politicians stuck in their thinking and modern day people of Scotlands thinking ,
The divide is widening every day, and it is undoubtable the old politics and politicians that will be left behind.
The days of planning Colonial Control over Scots and Scotland have gone, and people here are wakening up to role the devolved government to Scotland is having on their daily lives and how it impose two sets of Colonial admin laws on them compared to England,
Personally I do not see Scotland in the position of a successive state, but already see Scotland as having been a independent state since 1707.
And seeking serious reparations financially, for the damage the hoax has caused to Scots and their territorial lands of Scotland over the last three hundred years,
Alf Baird,
😉
@Mia 12.41 pm
The franchise of Scotland’s indyref in 2014 was totally ridiculous and, in my personal view, specifically designed to stop a Yes win because that would have completely kiboshed their brexshit.
Your rabidly xenophobic personal views are neither here nor there. Neither is your wholly unrepresentative, tendentious and subjective experience from your work place or circle of like minded bigots. The franchise used in Scotland is absolutely standard in self determination referendums since 1945, and indeed more restrictive than that used in many.
Few if any people in 2012-14 thought brexit was even remotely possible. The fact that you’re convinced it was some specifically planned conspiracy tells us everything we need to know about your woo-woo world view.
You made that up. I do not recall a single referendum in any EU country that had such ridiculously open franchise. As a matter of fact, the EU referendum in the UK DID NOT have that open franchise. This has been pointed out to you many, many, many times already, but you refuse to listen and refuse to provide evidence to credibly back your stance.
Sheesh you’re dense. Are plain flat out lying, or just too stupid to use Google? I’ve posted the freaking list of countries that gained independence BTL here a few times in the past with the details of the franchises used, dates, the whole nine yards. ALL of them used open franchises. One (Montenegro) imposed a 24 month residence criteria.
The fact the UK “rigged” the Brexit referendum to exclude EU voters is not the slam dunk you think it is because it wasn’t a self determination referendum, and even if you claim it’s somehow the same thing, it’s 1 example against a a few dozen other counter examples.
the fact you weren’t listening to, or didn’t see the ample evidence I provided in the past isn’t my problem. Your inability to do your own homework and find out what the franchises used in other self determination referendums isn’t my problem either. It simply demonstrates your lack of good faith argument or your intellectual incapacity. Neither is a good look.
Cough, “permanent residence”…
https://wingsoverscotland.com/tidying-up/comment-page-2/#comment-2678661
“Your rabidly xenophobic personal views are neither here nor there. Neither is your wholly unrepresentative, tendentious and subjective experience from your work place or circle of like minded bigots.”
Ellis the above would slightly amusing if it wasn’t so pathetic, there are no more xenophobic people in the world than the Zzz-i-o- Mon–ste-rs of Is-h-e-ll that you vehemently support even though they are committing g–en–oci-de. To add to your odiousness you are a self-confessed Atlanticists.
You support two of the most nefarious regimes on the planet the ZZzz–i-o-M-on-ste–rs and the Gr–ea-t S-at–an.
“A UN special rapporteur says it should not have taken “15,000 children killed” in the G–a–zza St-ri-p to add Iz-he-ll to the blacklist of regimes that commit “heinous violations” of international law against children.
In a post on X on Saturday, Francesca Albanese said it is long overdue to blacklist Iz–h-e-l-l as a child-killer regime after killing 15,000 children in the besieged P–al–e-sti-ni–an enclave and mutilating many more.
“It should have not taken 15,000 children killed, many more mutilated & 20,000 orphaned, to list Is-h-ell among” the regimes “who commit heinous violations of intl. law against children. Btw 2008-2022, 1,434+ P–al–est–ini–an children were killed and 32,175+ were injured, mostly by Iz-h-ell forces using ‘excessive force’. In the same period, 25 Iz-hell-i children were killed, mostly by Pa–le–sti–nia–n individuals, and 524 injured. It did not start on Oct 7,””
Cognitive dissonance is strong.
Even the classic of making shit fit in around his warped views.
Brexit was a dead cert, ya eejit. Shows how much you knew in either Scotland or England. Every second group in Facebook was Brexshit & taking back control of money, borders & to stop immigration. It was even part of the Yes campaign that there was every likelihood we’d “be out” whether we wanted to be or not.
We really just need to look at the comments. No one shares your outlook. I count at least TEN + posters with views that the franchise should change.
There’s ONE Andy that doesn’t want it changed under any circumstances. Yet he thinks he holds the majority view & speaks for Scotland.
@RepublicofScotland 5:04
Why don’t you change your name, you ignorant so-and-so? Show my country some respect by spelling her name correctly. It’s “Scotland” you dunderheid, not “scotland”.
You’ve dug your “jenoside” hole so deep, and lined it with impregnable concrete like your yellow poster boys, that you can’t back out now. You’re trapped in the hole you dug, ineffectually bleating “jenoside” while the world moves on.
It’s no jenoside when the primary strategy of the group supposedly being jenosided is to maximise its own casualties within its own people, in the forlorn hope a third party will step in. Pile the corpses so high they blot out the sun, then claim the propaganda victory.
It’s no jenoside that could be ended within 24 hours, just by handing over 100 or so hostages, dead or alive.
I support a government doing what it has to do to bring home its own people. That’s what I would expect my government to do if it was my people down in the holes. Maybe you want to claim you would rather leave your people to rot.
TBH, if they’re anything like you, I can understand your POV.
It’s not even an army.
It’s a bunch of terrorist thugs with a shoot to kill policy (Even their own – when things go wrong blame it on the other side)
They’re indoctrinated fae birth to hate their neighbours. It’s absolutely sickening that the yanks (Nikki Haley ) is signing bombs to “Go kill them all” kill who exactly? The people who have every right to fight against an invader? Hell will have a special seat for those eejits.
@Alf Baird 5.01 pm
Perhaps your personal difficulty accepting that Scottish independence is decolonization is because, ideologically and culturally, and therefore also in terms of your dominant values, you look at this matter from a British and hence colonialist perspective?
I’ve never identified as anything other than Scottish Alf. My passport may be British, but only because there is no other available to me. My “legal” nationality may be British, but I’d never categorise myself as anything other than Scottish.
Ideologically and culturally I’m Scottish, not British still less English. My dominant values are those I gained from my parents, my education and my upbringing: left of centre, social democratic, republican, Atlanticist, anti-authoritarian, pro-European.
I’ve never accepted – and never will accept – that Scotland is a colony. I’ll never accept that it is right to disenfranchise hundreds of thousands of Scottish residents because a minority of Scots nativists want to move the goalposts for achieving a progressive, left of centre Scottish republic, because the kind of dystopian ethnic nationalist state they would establish isn’t one I’d want to live in.
It won’t come to that however, as you and your xenophobic posse represent a nutter fringe in the movement thankfully, and and even smaller proportion in the population as a whole. Post independence you and they will be the political equivalent of Siol nan Gaidheal, Faragism and/or continuity Irish republicans.
RepublicOfScotland 6:17
See what I did there? I spelled the name of my country right.
Why not publish the list of heinous violators, eh?
See how many of your wet dream poster boy regimes feature on it. The women haters, the gay killers, the torture chamber builders, the gulag enthusiasts, the ethnic cleansers.
Always and only ever the dews with you, eh?
The dews intend to get their people back. I admire that. Heck, maybe I’m the only Scot in Scotland taking that view.
But it seems clear to me that if our country adopted that policy, every one of us would be safer.
But the floor is yours. Explain to the alert readers how our government condoning the killing, torture, rape and kidnap of party goers is the way forwards for us Scots.
@Dan 6.13 pm
Cough, “permanent residence”…
OK Dan, spit it out: what does “permanent residence” ACTUALLY mean in this context, how many of the furriners the xenophones insist are swamping us would exluding those who aren’t “permanent residents” actually exclude and would their exclusion have overturn the 2014 result?
Finally, given the open franchises used in all the other self determination referendums (excluding ours) since 1945, how many would have been excluded if the franchise was solely “permanent residents”?
Many of the countries concerned were former Soviet or Yugoslav republics. All of them enfranchised ALL permanent residents. They didn’t exclude non-native born Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Georgian, Armenians, Moldovans, U*rainians, Belar*ssians, Slovenians, Croatians, Macedonians etc.
Seeing a pattern here champ, or is the spittle in your eyes making it hard to see the screen?
*correction
It said to go finish them.
Sickening. No wonder the world is shunning them.
@Geri 6:26
TEN doesn’t constitute a majority in Scotland. Not even TEN+ shades it.
I’m getting an insight into your problem. One of them, anyways.
Could you go back to the other thread and resume your mutual massage session with the other two?
This thread was reasonably troll-free until now.
SNPs Civic Nationalism is showing andy.
@Geri 6.26 pm
Aw, bless…you actually think BTL here is real life! It is to laugh. What colour is the sky in your universe Geri? The fact the moonhowlers who infect this site like “giving it large” signifies precisely nothing.
You and your xenophobic bigot mates don’t represent the gneral readership of Wings. Hell, you don’t even have Rev Stu’s support on this issue. The general independence movement is less likely to support you, and the non-independence supporters less likely yet.
You’re the nutter fringe of a small extremist minority.
If you had any appreciable support, we’d see it in the politcal parties supporting your warped, regressive xenophobia…but we just don’t.
You have zero major political figures supporting you, no appreciable academic, legal or constitutional support for your views, and no evidence in polling that there’s any significant support from the public.
Empty vessels make the most noise Geri.
I’ll sum up the validity of the entire opposing ‘argument’ presented in opposition to the proposition that Scotland is a colony in a single word just to save a bit of debating time: ‘bollocks’.
Now that we’ve fully and successfully and with great eloquence established, using irrefutable logic, the truth of Scotland’s colonised status the way has been cleared to discuss how to go about getting the Scots out of the shit they currently find themselves stuck in – or ‘decolonised’ if you prefer multi-syllable big words.
1. We don’t see it in the parties – aye & how’s that working out?
2. IF a referendum is ever called it will be on the agenda because Scotland will be consulted. A convention will be organised & public assemblies will be held with the very ppl who OWN the franchise.
3. Stu is entitled to his opinion. He’s not God tho so stop kissing his arse, it’s embarrassing. He is well aware Holyrood has been captured completely by foreign interference with the Kat Carys of this world & it stands to reason a vote would be the same. Designed to always lose.
4. You’ll be nowhere near any decision making so sit down. Get back to yer toy soldiers & gies peace.
Northcode
Can also be summed up by the very fact that a sovereign nation is forbidden from holding a referendum.
We’re also not in control of our own resources & we’ve hee-haw say on how our own country is run or any opinion/response /consultation on world events.
The very definition of a colony. Ellis needs to buy himself a dictionary.
I once heard this in a formal debate; delivered to an opposing speaker in very reasonable tones:
“Correct me if you think I am wrong, sir, although I am sure that is not so and cannot be proved so, but is it not the case that the whole of your argument rests solely on a substantial foundation of ‘Rocky Mountain oysters’ – or to put it in non-culinary terms, a load of bollocks?”
@Geri 7.27pm
1. It’s not working out great. Scots have always been great at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Either we change the parties, or we accept that your alternative can and will work. It’s up to you and a’ the other bigots to prove it. We won’t be holding our collective breath, particularly with the likes of dregs like you being the representatives.
2. Conventions will never be considered valid unless they clearly and already represent the settled will of the majority, because a movement advocating such a convention has won the argument. That movement is in it’s infancy, supported by a small minority, many of whom are xenophobic bigoted cranks. It has less support than Alba, which isn’t saying much sadly.
3. This is Stu’s site. The reason it rips the nativists knitting so much that he thinks their arguments are shit, is that they lie to think they’re generally on “his side”. of course in this instance he’s explicitly said that you and the other regressive nativists are NOT on his side.
Cry more, bigots!
4. So what? I don’t have to be, because my views are those of the majority. You’re on the other hand are just a sad, inadequate ned sitting on the sidelines throwing rocks at those more educated, more accomplished and more erudite than yourself….not that that would be a particularly high bar. Enjoy your irrelevance and the knowledge that your world view is as shit as your patter.
Aye, Geri. Those facts alone win the argument.
@Andy Ellis
Not long ago you agreed with me that Scots were unlikely to be granted a second independence referendum.
Given that, I don’t see why you choose to post about the franchise for a referendum that is unlikely to happen and abuse people who have views with which you disagree.
The research paper quoted describes only a tentative conclusion reached on few examples that there must be a referendum for secession to be legally recognised.
There are circumstances where a referendum is not needed.
The longer the denial of a second referendum (assuming support for it does not fall) the more scrutiny will come on the Supreme Court decision that we are not a colony.
The need is to show democratically that Scotland wants independence.There is no self-determination without democratic decision-making.
A referendum would involve broad discussion about the pros and cons of independence. That is what you should be talking about,imo.
An interest quirk of nature that unionist for everything or anything never quite tally with those seeking totally independent nations,
And more and more Countries are turning back towards being and wanting independent nations again, as they realise one world global governance makes their countries collapes on their knees,
Due to them recognising that their own Countries are overflowing with new people they cannot support financially and structurally .
And a escalation in Crimes coincides with that new population whilst the private corporation police no longer police by consent of the people nor do they stay out of politics as they are supposed to do,
Civic nationalism like global nationalism introduces hoards of migrants that do not heed or are not expected or required to adopt their hosts culture, language or values,
And the EU and Atlanticism follow the same idealogical theory and experiments with nations and nationalities . To make all cultures under one roof, one language, one big ruler new nation governence with ID cards
Natizionism through the back door is as dangerous to small nations as it was when it came marching in through the front door in the 1930s and 1940s.
And one world order of dictatorship with one massive Army is still the same goal today as it was back then,
If global transgender issues do not crumple nations then perhaps one of the other global topics will.
Such as black lives matter or the virus, or geo- engineering the climate or the world wide energy crises, or importing alien cultures to fight it out in homegrown territory-proxy wars on the globalist behalf.
These created chao’s are not restricted to just the nation of Scotland or England, they are under the same orders in Canada, Australia, France, New Zealand, America, Germany,….
In fact it may be quicker to name Name Countries that are not contending with Atlanticism,, Civic Nationalism, natzionism,
But Scotland is beginning to recognise the players and actors from outside our Country trying to implement massive changes to our small nation of people, and I can understand why these groups of leaders keep saying Scots hate english or Irish or Welsh or vice vera, because the other nations in Britain are also fighting back and would be stronger together fighting to over throw this new invading regime change of the British Isles,
Andy Ellis.
Why are you projecting your Ideas as being that of Rev Stu’s
Have you asked him personally if he is a Atlanticist or a global civic Nationalist that agrees with idealogical theories,
I don’t expect that anybody is going to address the awkward fact that Scotland always knew there would be a WM GE, and that nothing whatsoever was ever standing in the way of an established Indy party, a coalition, or just a bunch of dedicated individuals, from standing on an Indy plebiscitary platform.
Let me repeat that in monosyllables:
No impediment to plebiscitary elections – nil, zero, nada, zilch. Any WM and HR election. Every WM and HR election.
Here’s what I have concluded. I’m confident it’s what the alert lurkers have concluded too.
The impediments to the Plebiscitary election route are apathy and fear.
And that does not sit at all well with the story that the majority support Indy.
But nobody’s going to address this, because it’s just too easy and comforting to greet into your drams and bleat about how we’re colonised.
James Che
You should see the hissy fit the yanks are having over Georgia introducing a ban on foreign interference in their government. Anyone funded by foreign agents have to declare it & they will be recorded of whose interests they really serve.
That speaks volumes.
The yanks will also soon be faced with international interference through thier ballot boxes. Their own policy will bite them back. They never do think more than five minutes ahead. Eejits.
@ James Che 8.16pm
I didn’t say he was an Atlanticist, the arguments I was referring to were their arguments about franchise restriction, which Rev Stu comprehensively fisked in his twitter thread I’ve copied BTL here before.
He may or may not support Atlanticism, but even if he doesn’t we all know he’s evidence led, so he’d likely be swayed by the fact that the overwhelming majority of Scots are, just as they are overwhelmingly pro EU.
It’s not a matter of projecting my ideas James: if my ideas were or are those of the minority, they’ll fail. If those of the coterie of xenophoboic bigoted dregs infesting BTL here previal (God forbid!) then heaven help us all.
I know which I think is more likely. Time will tell.
Shitface
Alba have some weird love fest with the SNP.
No one is voting for deviants.
They claimed they were standing on a united ticket & then immediately put candidates up against Independents.
Andy must be a founding member right enough. How to fck up a campaign from the get go & make fck all appealling to anyone.
@ Andy Ellis at 6:59 pm
How hard can this be. Years ago I simply asked you to define what “permanent residence” meant and you still swerve answering, and instead deflect and submit yet another post full of your usual diatribe.
The fact that “permanent residence” is listed in many of the examples you gave must surely mean something…
There must be a reason for the addition of the adjective or were they just wanting to fluff out the document or use more ink.
Maybe a dictionary would help…
But taking onboard my understanding of the meaning of “permanent”, to me it would suggest that “permanent residence” means a certain criteria in the form of a commitment to and duration of residency in a particular area is applicable.
“Temporary residence” would suggest there would not be similar qualifying criteria needing to be met.
We are in the UK and we have different franchises and different voting systems for different elections, so it’s not like there is a specific set standard used for all democratic events.
We also have duration constraints for the likes of pre-settled and settled status in the EU Settlement Scheme.
“If you have pre-settled status, you can usually switch to settled status after you’ve lived in the UK for 5 years in a row.
If you do not switch to settled status, your pre-settled status will be extended by 2 years shortly before it’s due to expire.”
https://www.gov.uk/settled-status-eu-citizens-families/switch-from-presettled-status-to-settled-status
So that seems like if someone hasn’t applied for and made the commitment to be settled and stay in the UK within 7 years, they aren’t intending to stay here permanently.
@Dan
Just more deflection on your part. You didn’t answer the questions I asked above. Why is that? Is it because you know the answers wouldn’t support your xenophobic bigot worldview?
I’d say that’s probably it. The countries mentioned all used open, residence based criteria for deciding who could vote in theri self determination referendums. the 2014 referendum did the same. Any future one – in the unlikely event there is one – will undoubtedly use one much the same, or very similar with a little tinkering round the edges at most.
Permitted residence in the cases quoted means those who lived there, irrespective of their birth. Of course, you’d know that if you had the smarts to read or do a minimum of research rather than just spout xenophobic tropes. All very Faragey.
Now we see your MO: it’s all about your feelz, and what you *think* must have been meant by permanent residence, without doing the actual work, searching the sources and informing yourself on the basis of evidence and facts.
So either your just being intellectually dishonest and lazy, and asserting feelings and assumptions as “FACTS”, or your a bad faith actor. I’m going with the latter, even though the former is obviously likely as well.
As Rev Stu noted in the thread you posted earlier, people with second homes for example could never vote: it was just another lazy, bigoted nativist bogey man. Same goes for the apparently huge numbers of students who voted, even tho’ nobody could ever say how many it was, or whether they were in any way decisive.
Last, and most importantly of all of course is the fact that none of you xenophobes know what the impact on the Yes vote would have been if the SG & Yes movement had been mental enough to enact your bigoted agenda in 2012.
@Dan
Ireland holds both constitutional and non constitutional referendums.
For non EU/EEA and Swiss nationals to vote there is a residency condition. For citizenship there is a condition of having lived in Ireland continuously for 5 of the 9 years preceding application including 1 year’s continual residency before application.
I’m relying on mmemory here so you may want to check.
The point is that there is a tension between the rights of people in a country born there or of descent from people born there and rights of those without those qualities who come to live in a country.
Both groups should have democratic rights. It is unlikely – impossible- that those coming to a country from outside will decide on the conditions granting them voting rights.
Geri,
I can well believe that all hell is about to break loose in America in a not to distant future, most Americans are patriots and nationalists of their Country, many have fought and died for that cause generation after generation,
Heres the thing about Scots man claiming to be an Atlanticist.
Its a another dam idiotic Scot selling his Country down the river,
Only this time the bill of sale goes to America instead of England,
Dam those tractor heads. they have no loyalty and no doubt are lining the pockets just the same as 1706/07
“The franchise used in Scotland is absolutely standard in self determination referendums”
Sorry, but repeating the same lie over and over again does not transform it into truth. Go on, take a look at every referendum that has taken place in Europe in the last 30 years and let us know how many of those took place with the ridiculously open franchise that was forced on Scotland in 2014. Then take a look at the franchise of the EU referendum in 2016. Then go on and look at the franchises for referendums in Gibraltar and the Falklands. What do you see?
“Few if any people in 2012-14 thought brexit was even remotely possible”
Speak for yourself. That you are not very observant does not mean everybody else aren’t either. The levels of pro-brexit propaganda at the time were suffocating. There is a debate from 2013 on TV between Sturgeon and Carmichael where, from what Sturgeon said, it was evident she knew brexit was a distinct possibility and that the tories, and not labour, were going to win. Even before the act for the EU referendum was passed this was in 2015 if I remember correctly, Mr Salmond asked in parliament for each of the 4 nations to have a veto, so the UK would not leave the EU unless the four nations agreed. England MPs trashed it and arrogantly denied a veto to Scotland.
By then, it was obvious Scotland would vote against brexit. It was in every poll. If, as you claim, “nobody thought that brexit was remotely possible”, England MPs would not have any problem if granting that veto, which was a blank card for Cameron against brexit. Yet, he refused it. He refused it because he knew England would vote for brexit and needed Scotland, their cash cow, to keep England afloat when out of the EU. Half of the tory party was frantically seeking brexit. They knew the law was being broken with the Cambridge analytica nonsense, yet they did nothing to stop it. Cameron did not announce the date of the referendum until the polls had turned for Brexit in Wales. You might not have thought that brexit was possible, but the political class already knew it was going to happen because they were preparing and seeking for it to happen. They even limited the number of years “expats” could be living out of the UK to keep the vote. This was rather restrictive compared with other countries.
“your woo-woo world view”
My woo-woo wold view is based in the evidence that is around me, not Gordon Brown’s school of hyperbole, psychological blackmailing and the ad hominem yours appears to be based on.
“Sheesh you’re dense. Are plain flat out lying, or just too stupid to use Google?”
Take a deep breath and go easy on the hyperbole and the ad hominem champ. Hyperbole and ad hominem do not count as evidence.
“I’ve posted the freaking list of countries that gained independence BTL here a few times….”
And here is the fundamental incongruence of your stance. You are referring to colonies or to areas that seceded from an actual country. Scotland does not fall in any of those two categories. Scotland is not a colony and is not a part of a country. It is a country in itself that is bound to another simply by an international treaty of union it has the legitimate right to end whenever it wishes.
You are determined to apply to Scotland a franchise that was applied to colonies because they did not have a proper citizenship registry. But ironically, you ridiculise those in this thread that are trying to explain to you, very convincingly and with solid evidence and not hyperbole or ad hominem, that Scotland is a colony.
So make up your mind. Either Scotland is a colony or it is not.
If it is not a colony, as you claim and I agree with you on this, then it is a sovereign country that has the power and the legitimate right under international law to revoke a treaty of union it entered as a sovereign state.
If it is a sovereign country, then it has the power to create its own citizenship rules like every other country in Europe and even UK dominions like Gibraltar or The Falklands have done.
If it can create its own citizenship rules like every other country in Europe, then it does not have to follow that ridiculously stupid open franchise applied to colonies and that only benefits the imperial power exploiting it or the main country a section is trying to secede from.
As I said to you many times, neither the Falklands nor Gibraltar have that silly franchise. Why not? Because if they did they would cease to be UK dominions within seconds due to their size and due to the size of the countries they have boundaries with. If Gibraltar and the Falklands can have a closed up franchise, then what is stopping Scotland having one?
The only thing stopping Scotland to have its own citizenship rules is the useful idiots in control of Scotland that are working for the crown and against Scotland. I mean, with idiots like Robertson unable to even organise a census, there is no wonder Scotland does not have a citizenship registry.
With regards to secession, Scotland is not Catalonia and is not in the same situation as Catalonia. Catalonia is not in a political union like Scotland is. Catalonia is part of a country, Spain. Scotland is not part of a country, it is a country in a political union with another.
If you are adamant that Scotland must follow a franchise that is only applicable to colonies or entities which are trying to secede from actual countries, then you are indirectly admitting that Scotland is a colony and not a country.
So make up your mind, is Scotland a colony or is not? And if it is not, why on earth should it follow a franchise used only for colonies when it has the power to create its own citizenship registry and can be using the franchise that every other country in the EU use for their constitutional referendums?
“One (Montenegro) imposed a 24 month residence criteria”
If you impose a 24 month residence criteria, then it is not as open a franchise as Scotland’s was. In Scotland there was no residence criteria. They could have been living in Scotland for five minutes or had left Scotland to live in another country months before the referendum and they were still given a vote.
“The fact the UK “rigged” the Brexit referendum to exclude EU voters”
I never said the UK rigged the referendum “to exclude” EU voters. If you look at the rules for constitutional referendums in any other country in the EU the exact same applies.
“It wasn’t a self determination referendum”
Why, because you say so? It was a self-determination referendum as much as 2014 was a self-determination referendum for Scotland. It was a constitutional decision put to the people in both cases. In both cases it was a decision for leaving or not a political union. Sorry, but your ridiculous wording acrobatics to try and stop the comparisons with the EU referendum are rather silly.
“the ample evidence”
Ample in your mind, that is. I have seen no convincing evidence of anything you claim.
“Your inability to do your own homework…”
You are reverting again to Gordon Brown’s school of hyperbole and ad hominem. This does not add to your argument, it diminishes it.
“It simply demonstrates your lack of good faith argument or your intellectual incapacity”
hyperbole and ad hominem again. It is getting boring, quite frankly.
I do not do faith when it comes to constitutional questions, sorry. With regards to my intellectual capabilities, they may be limited but at least they are sufficient to not be fooled by your poor attempts to deflect, using exaggerated hyperbole and ad hominemm, from the fact that you have not provided any credible evidence to support your stance.
Andy Ellis,
I could envisage many changing opinions in the next year or so over who gets to vote in any kind of election as England, Wales and Ireland gets swamped in civic nationalism continuous boats loads of migrants.
I would not rely on the franchise method being a Cert,
As England over flows and there is no peacible safe space left in England for your children to grow up in or your grandchildren I could see all Scots wishing for Scotland to be separate and a safe haven from civic nationalism, Atlanticism and the EU dictatorship,
In fact I could see many English people voting for a change in the franchise and then applying to Scotland to become a Scottish citizen, as England turns into a foreign war zone,
This theoretical Ideology does not sit well with the majority of people in Britain never mind Scotland,
Telling people that they are the onlyminority native group that that doesn’t agree with it is a blantent lie,
I have been watching “all” news outlets from around the world for years and safely say that the people of all nations are protesting and will take matters into their own hands ignoring government policies,
And most of those Countries have a history of being more volatile than Scotland,.
If Scotland does not get to change its Franchise then we just acknowledge that we can make that change ourselfs without the permission needed from of a hoax treaty and fallacious monarch.
Change will come and globalisation will fall and fail, and with it may come renewed vigour for Uremburg style trials,
God help those on the wrong side of history again for crimes against humanity.
Lolz Andy.
You must be fucking mental to spend so much of your time typing out the same old yarn. Insanity was said to be doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
Guess it was just too hard for you to answer the simple question, so instead you resort to spewing out yet more of your endless shite.
I’ve previously suggested that Stu could carry out some polling to find out Scottish Society’s views on who we think should be allowed to vote on Scotland’s constitutional future, but as far as I’m aware he hasn’t published any info on that subject so may not have carried out any research. Maybe he shat it in case it proves Scotland isn’t quite what he and you hoped…
Could be the bottom line is that small c conservative Scots might not actually be so supportive of letting anybody just rock up and get a vote to influence their futures. And jist maybe that is one more factor as to why more folk aren’t supportive of Scotland returning to self-governance, because they don’t agree with all the right on globalist woke pie in the sky bullshit the supposedly Nationalist Parties are foisting onto our society.
Think about the target audience which (much as it pains me) is more dour folk playing bowls rather than Primal Scream fans… 😉
Immigration is a power reserved to Westminster, so Scotland has little control over who arrives here and whether they are a net benefit or drain on our already stretched fiscal state and services.
It’s utterly bonkers to have no control over the demographics of folk coming to live in a country, and especially so when that country also doesn’t have all the other significant powers to properly manage its resources and control its economy.
It’s not xenophobic or racist to hold valid concerns about how all this plays out and affects our society. You can try and paint that as Faragey all you like, but most Scots I know fully understand where I am coming from on this when we discuss the subject.
And incidentally most of my male mates and even a couple of females would likely punch you the fuck out if you ever tried to speak to them like you do to folk on here. That’s that target audience again that you’ve got to convince with that lovely endearing manner you have. 😉
You appear to have zero interest in reaching any consensus, your legacy of posting btl over the years clearly shows an almost monomaniacal focus and ridiculous over the top hostility to anyone that doesn’t align with your own views.
It’s fucking comedy watching your antics.
And I note you again try to lever in and use Stu stating that second home owners don’t get a vote, when if you read my response to him a couple of posts down I state that some do due to lax electoral system. That’s based on hard evidence from time being out campaigning in and knowing my neighbours and wider community, and having access to scrutinise the electoral roll through a political Party’s campaigning database which shows all manner of information about voters.
Mia,
I like your logic,
Wether your version, Alfs Bairds version or my version or a combination, of all three have a possibility of meeting in the middle, it leaves these numskulls looking decidedly deaf, unread or totally ignorant of the written word,
Dan,
I think most of the people around where I live would do the same to Mr Ellis if he spoke to them the same way as he does to people here on Wings over Scotland,
James Che @10:31pm
Your comment made me think of Karma.
Folk can take it or leave it, believe it or not. I expect it’ll make no difference in the end.
Many think Karma (in Hinduism and Buddhism) is about punishing wrongs committed in this life or in any of the many others which have come before.
But this is not the nature of Karma.
Karma is a teacher not a punisher. It teaches by ‘allowing’ us to experience for ourselves those sins, those ‘errors’ made in ignorance, we commit against others.
Once the lesson is learned and the nature of the error is understood we are then ‘permitted’ to move on to the next lesson to be learned. And they are many and they are often painful. We humans have a lot to learn and a long, long way to go yet. As is plain to see from the state of our world.
Karma being real, it makes sense to treat others as well as we are able – not out of fear, but because it’s right and the opposite of error; we can be sure that either sometime later in this current life, or more likely, perhaps, in the next or the next after that or the next after that, the sins we visit upon others will be visited upon ourselves.
This is a law of the universe and cannot be negated.
When we harm others we harm ourselves. Because in the end we are all each other. At least that’s what the ancients of the ancients thought.
Maybe they were right, I think they were – I guess we’ll all find out…eventually.
Mia
Re Brexit. It was well known we’d be out & one of the reasons the SNP even included it as a trigger in its GE2015 manifesto.
I voted remain, as did many others I know, exactly for that reason – it would trigger the SNPs mandate for indyref2.
So for Ellis to claim no one was talking about it in 2013 etc is absolute horseshit. It was also part of the Yes campaign. I distinctly remember Philippa Whitford give plenty of talks of how we’d be out of the EU & we knew even back then the direction of travel the Tories would take to try save their party from internal fighting & Farage & Co. They’d call a ref & they’d exit. There was also TTIP on everyone’s lips.
I personally think now that they were given the heads up by the yanks to exit cause they were going to trash it & turn it into a dependency & we can all see that unfold now.
Today’s crossword clue;
A country that wants to hold a vote to decide on it’s own future, but has to get permission from the country next door to do so. Six letters, starts with ‘C’….
C-L-NY
On my musings about Karma. I wouldn’t mind seeing it pay a visit to a few of Scotland’s native elites right now in this current lifetime. I think I might find some gleeful joy in witnessing them being taught some harsh and painful lessons on what it means to be a decent human being.
Is that a sin? I suspect it might be and I’ll have to pay for it in my next life. But maybe some sins are worth the price we’ll inevitably have to fork out for.
Come on Karma, get to work and give us a show…I’m happy to pay the price for a ticket on the front seat row.
I’m so disappointed in myself – oh, well. I’ll learn my lesson next time.
Is that karma,
I must have been the baddest wickedest god dam awful person in my past life time, as I have in this lifetime,
Been physical abused by first alcoholic husband ( broken ribs while 6 months pregant)
Been homeless due to divorce and council man being drinking a buddy with ex, five year waiting list,
Married a second time to to a psycho whom threatened to shoot with a shotgun me so he could collect my life insurance , ( reported to police) apparently he had lied to police and myself about previously being in a mental home, police removed his gun and license,
Another divorce.
Met & Married a beautiful gentle giant of a Scotsman, humourous and well liked in the community,
And he now has terminal Cancer and the NHS is collapsing and his care is appalling.
I have no finances and DWP forgot to inform me that womens state pension age has changed.
6 years later on I still have no state pension because DWP deleted many womens records that were born in the 1950s. And avoided telling us.
Karma is shit, god only knows what I got up too prior to 1950s, perhaps I was a Colonial Peer sitting in the House of Lords,,
Or a right royal pervert,
Are you born the same sex gender when reincarnated, that might explain a lot,
Next time around I presume karma would owe be big time as I have been exceedly helpful and kind as I could in this life time, helping others not so fortunate, and yes there are many others always worse of than ones self,
One of my greatest assets is the ability to pick myself up and start again, with a positive mind and attitude combined with determination. To get on with it,
Each day is different and brings small smiles and rewards in a entirely different way,
And with that in mind I am away to ensure my spouse gets a lovely shower and new set of jimjams, then clean the mess that is on carpets and bedding as poor hubby never made it to the bathroom.
He is too weak to do any of these things for himself,
So I might not respond to any comments for awhile today,
We need Scotlands independence sooner rather than later so we can start sorting these major issues out,
The UK governance system is still not working after having three hundred years advatage time to make Scotland & Britain better place,
Now that karma is over due,
Keep up the good fight everyone and keep smiling, tomorrow is always a different day that brings new ups and downs and new hope 🙂
They need a block n tackle for the 2 Kirsty’s tae get their fat erses aff the seats
James Che
I would like to write a longer reply to your moving comment, James. But for now I’ll say this.
You ask:
“Is that Karma?”
Well, according to Hindus and Buddhists and other teachers through the ages, learning us the errors of our ways by forcing us to experience those past sins we may have inflicted on others over many lifetimes is part of it, but there’s more to it than that. And it isn’t quite that simple.
There are other reasons, unconnected with Karma, for the suffering some of us might have to endure in this life. Still related to ‘learning’, but nothing to do with past sins.
Many guid sowels suffer unjustly in life. But I fear this is not the place to delve into these spiritual or metaphysical matters in any great depth.
I believe from what you’ve written and from our past exchanges on here that you’re a guid sowel, James Che. And I am truly sorry that you’ve suffered in the way you have. Truly sorry. My heart goes out to you.
The ancients of the ancients tell us our lives are like ocean waves smashing against the rocks of our reality time and time again, and each time we learn something new about ourselves; what we really are and why we’re really here.
It’s a painful process; sometimes, unfairly, more painful for some than it is for others, but one that is essential for reasons I won’t go into here.
Folk can choose to believe there is a purpose to it all or instead relegate the miracle of life to some random coincidences of nature and the chaotic bumping together of gross matter, it’s up to them.
Free will is what sets humanity above the angels, or so some ancient told me in some ancient book in some ancient time.
I send my very best wishes to you and your ‘beautiful gentle giant of a Scotsman’.
If it’s any consolation ask yourself this question. Would you have ever met your ‘gentle giant’ and shared a life together if not for the difficult path that brought you to him?
I hope nothing that I’ve written has offended or hurt you in any way, James Che – I set my writings down with the best of intentions, but sometimes best intentions don’t arrive where they’re supposed to.
The ancients call to me; they cry “Northcode, why have you abandoned us? Why have you spent so little time with us of late? Why do you squander our wisdom on deaf ears?”
Those ancients can be a real pain in the ass sometimes – but they mean well.
And so it is that I must depart from this place and return once more to the company of those minds who have taught me so much. I must go to the shores of Áman Daw? where it meets the sea and bask in the light of their ancient knowledge and their wisdom so that I might continue my long journey towards enlightenment.
But it’s been a hoot hingin’ aboot here and pontificating on all manner of sagey-type stuff; aye, and a fair bit o’ nonsense tae. And it’s been a hoot, tae, reading the sagey-type stuff of ithers wha hing aboot here.
Scotland holds a special place in my heart and I dearly hope that one day she will return to herself and lift this bland and mediocre world, as it has become in this age of diminished man (sorry women but humankind just isn’t literary enough for this line and has too many syllables to make it work- and apart fae that it’s mostly the fault of mediocre men it’s aw gone tits-up onyway), towards a new age of compassion and understanding and knowledge and human enlightenment.
So farewell, immortal souls; but remember this – your hopes are my hopes and your dreams are my dreams (not the weird dreams though – keep them tae yersels).
And so I say unto ye in the words of Richard Bach and with a pleasant smile and with much goodwill – “I quit.”
YOU James Che are a ROCK and I genuinely admire your spirit and bravery, never let arseholes or SCUM like ELLIS demean or denigrate you or your opinions