The suicide squad
The UK is currently a non-functioning democracy. The Prime Minister has handed in his notice and has no nominated successor. The leader of the Opposition has just been served with a vote of no confidence by 80% of his own MPs. Parliamentarians are openly discussing overturning the result of a democratic referendum. People are pretending that Angela Eagle is a credible future Prime Minister.
The country, in short, has lost its mind.
In the clip above from yesterday’s news, Eagle is seen weeping because she chose to resign a meaningless shadow-cabinet post, despite her own constituency party asking her to support the party’s democratically-elected leader.
God help us if there was a war – Vladimir Putin might say something beastly about her hairdo and give the British PM a complete nervous breakdown. Yet we’re being asked to believe that Jeremy Corbyn is so unelectable that Labour would have a better chance with this woman in charge.
(Or possibly Tom Watson, last seen posting Snapchat pics of himself glomping about at Glastonbury like some sort of hippy Nero as his country and party disintegrated.)
So as the Tories send the UK hurtling towards the EU exit door and a future of the imbecilic Boris Johnson leading the nation, let’s review the state of the Labour Party – the only alternative proposed by those who maintain that Scotland is better served by staying with Westminster.
————————————————————————————————–
1. Jeremy Corbyn was elected just nine months ago by an overwhelming landslide of Labour members, winning a greater mandate than even Tony Blair.
2. Since then he’s performed pretty averagely, despite being constantly undermined by his own MPs, who were plotting a coup against him before he was even elected.
Against lurid predictions of catastrophe, Labour have done fine in by-elections and council elections, won the London mayoral election and closed the gap on the Tories in the polls, which just before Corbyn’s election as leader stood as high as 14 points.
3. The excuse being used for the coup is that Corbyn didn’t do enough to persuade Labour supporters to vote Remain in the EU referendum. Yet 63% did – just 1% fewer than the share among SNP voters, which has conspicuously failed to trigger demands for Nicola Sturgeon’s resignation.
We’re somewhat less than convinced that the Labour “heartland” areas which voted Leave in large numbers would have been turned around had an Islington MP shouted at them more stridently that they should stop blaming immigrants for poverty.
4. Arguing against this, the plotters claim that Labour would have performed better in the elections and the referendum had it had a different leader, despite not a shred of material evidence existing that there’s any potential leader the public likes any more than Corbyn. He is, in effect, being judged against a phantom.
5. Labour has an established procedure for a leadership challenge – 50 MPs have to back a new contender, at which point there’s a vote. Yet the “rebels” chose instead to publicly quit one-by-one over a period of several days, ensuring that the story stayed in the news all weekend rather than the chaos of Brexit.
The idea of this was to pressure Corbyn into resigning without anyone having to stand up against him – something that the briefest of glances at Corbyn’s long history of stubborn rebellion would have indicated was never going to happen.
6. With all the shock of the tide coming in, the Sun rising in the morning and bears having a toilet break among trees, Corbyn has emphatically refused to do so, saying that anyone who wants his job can come and fight for it. Polling currently suggests that he’ll win any new contest comfortably.
(54% of Labour voters want Corbyn to stay. Of the named alternatives in today’s Times/YouGov poll, Hilary Benn is top with just 12%. Of those likely to actually stand against Corbyn, Tom Watson has a feeble 4% and Angela Eagle a laughable 1%.)
7. Knowing this, the plotters are frantically trying to have a leader who was elected nine months ago with more than three times the vote share of his nearest rival banned by law from even running in the contest.
This opens up the gruesome possibility of the contest being fought out in the courts for months before a single vote can be cast.
8. Should Corbyn win again, the party will surely shatter. 172 of Labour’s 232 MPs – 74% – will have announced in advance that they can’t work with their newly-elected leader. They’ll have no option but to resign the whip, either sitting as independents, joining another party, or forming a brand-new one.
(Remarkably, a furious David Blunkett insisted on television last night that the people supporting Corbyn – that is, over 250,000 party members – should be the ones to split away from the 172 party members opposing him, meaning that each MP considers their opinion to carry more weight than that of 1,462 ordinary members.)
9. If more of the 60 Labour MPs who would be left join the 172 – which is possible, as only 40 MPs actually voted for Corbyn in yesterday’s confidence motion – the SNP could become the official Opposition, with 54 MPs.
10. Alternatively, if most of the “rebels” form a new breakaway Labour offshoot, the new party would become the official Opposition, despite not a single person in Britain having voted for its MPs as such.
Individual MPs are not obliged to stand down and fight a by-election if they change party, but having it done en masse to the extent that a new Opposition was formed would surely be democratically unsustainable.
The country would then be faced with something in the region of 200 by-elections simultaneously. The new party would probably be unable to afford to fight them all, as it would have no members paying subscription fees and no support from trade unions. Without funds for an effective campaign, it would almost certainly end up splitting the Labour vote and allowing the Tories or UKIP to take some of the seats.
11. There’s no guarantee that the rebels would actually give up even after a defeat in the leadership election, though. Yesterday in the Spectator some were quoted saying that “if necessary [we] will have to hold repeated votes and leadership contests in order to dislodge him”, which is a mindboggling prospect.
12. It’s of course possible that Corbyn could lose the leadership election. At this point, Labour would also shatter. A large proportion of the 200,000 new members who joined either expressly to elect Corbyn or as a result of his election would very likely leave, taking their membership fees with them. But his supporters in the Parliamentary party would have no reason to quit, and would become a toxic Militant-style faction.
13. At some point during this mayhem – next week, to be precise – the Chilcot Report will be released, setting off a fresh bout of internecine warfare within the party.
14. On top of all that, there may or may not be a UK general election in October, which Labour would either have to fight in the middle of an insanely bitter leadership contest or in the middle of an explosive split, and in either event with a leader that roughly half of the party’s MPs and members would consider an incompetent imbecile, a backstabbing traitor, or both.
(Our money would normally be against a general election, but the Tories may not be able to resist the chance to have one in those circumstances, confident that they’d not only win a personal mandate for the new PM but greatly increase their majority.)
————————————————————————————————–
So there you go, Scotland. If you want to stay in the UK, it’s looking like the Tories with Boris Johnson or Theresa May as Prime Minister, and the country out of Europe, for however many decades it takes for Labour to put itself back together again.
If only there was some other choice, eh?
Seriously, I believe we need to go for IndyRef2 this year. May never get a better window of opportunity.
Not to be picky, but why is there a picture of the Canadian parliament in there?
Because it was the best picture that illustrated the point being made at that juncture.
Sums it up perfectly and puts into perspective the real possibilities of no labour and Tory government’s for a long time. Scotland not only requires independence, it bloody well needs it!
NO
Vote NO you get nothing.
BBC out doing it’s lies.
They are all gong on holiday soon. 2 months. The Tories are a dangerous laughing stock. Unbelievable.
Not once did I get the unshakeable impression Corbyn felt Europe was the natural place for merry England to be. His few ‘Remain’ speeches were half-hearted and lacklustre.
Why was that?
One can argue he has the right philosophical outlook to fashion the right anti-neocon economic policies, and one can back that with the Labour party members who supported him, but when a leader hasn’t the gumption to flush the toilet on his own detractors he needs to accept he’s a born second banana.
And I though Scotland had problems, let’s get out of here and let them get on with it.
Come on Nicola!!!
…but apart from that, everything’s fine, right?
Yes, #indyref2 this year. I expect (hope) it will be a clear binary:
> Scotland should REMAIN in the EU, and leave the UK (become independent)
> Scotland should REMAIN in the UK, and leave the EU (not become independent).
Seriously, a major reason for me to vote YES last time was the apparent incompetence, arrogance and general indifference of the Tory party, which I thought would damage Scotland and the UK over the decades.
It was therefore remarkable to witness them manage it so spectacularly last week in a single day.
You really couldn’t make it up, any publisher or program maker would tell you it’s too far fetched.
All those Tory careerists in Labour, have doomed it to the wilderness or extinction.
Scotland independent in Europe, we know it makes sense.
Hey Stu why not create your own party with the ideals of the snp. Running it from down south. CWSNP Cooperative With the Scottish National Party, I sense a fund raiser and a host of support that can be drafted in.
[…] Wings Over Scotland The suicide squad The UK is currently a non-functioning democracy. The Prime Minister has handed in his […]
Unionist Parties don’t do democracy. That is why so few people join them. They are a laughing stock.
Could they not do a Sturgeon and have their Scottish leader step up to the plate when Westminster is throwing toys out of prams?
Kez could … why is my computer red underlining this? There is nothing wrong in grammar or spelling that I can see.
Kez could … aha, I see, bugger, Computer 1 Human 0
The issue for Labour party members and supporters is not Corbyn.
The issue is what the Labour party stand for. Most members reject the Red Tory philosophy yet are stuck with it as long as they select back stabbing Red Tories to represent their constituencies.
Labour is fucked with or without Corbyn as leader. A split is inevitable. Scottish labour voters take note and take your party back.
Step 1. Support Independence for Scotland. It’s your only hope.
We may get a dose of crabbs an outside chance but couldn’t resist
This really is very important for England/Wales.
If Corbyn is ousted then their politics will be 3 right wing parties fighting for the sound bite vote which will keep pulling them to the right. (Oh, and the LibDems).
It is looking like he was indeed the right man at the right time for the job.
I cannot find myself much interested though. Already it seems like a foreign country and there is much more important stuff happening here.
And we thought the slabbers were eejits their bosses are even worse.
JC should stick to his guns and tell the blairites to do one and remove the Labour whip.
Labours problem is that they think it is something special to be a Labour Party member. We always hear how people say “my family always voted labour” what a cliche. “Born into a Labour Party” they don’t know what the party stands for so they qualify their support by reverting to history and tradition.
Eddie the Eagle would be a better choice, especially when considering the leap of faith nature of things, and at least there would be a few laughs along the way. Don’t knock the laughs, its worked for Boris so far.
Tom Watson, that photie looks contrived. Yes there is mud on his boots but only at the bottom, no mud splatters up the side. They look new and just put on in the last 5 minutes. Ditto his trousers, just the one strangely isolated spot of mud and who TF wears cream trousers in a mud field? Also not convinced that can of cider is even open. However the surrounding area with no-one in it in an otherwise densely packed campus, is rather more convincing.
soz for ot mr peffers,
irish taoiseach addresses holyrood
link to scottishparliament.tv
erin gu brath
All driven by soothsayer McTernan, the man for whom I coin the phrase ‘failure denier.
Very well thought out & well reasoned article. Corbyn has less chance of winning an election than I have though. But that’s democracy. It would mean labour picking a new leader after losing the next election. Far less messy.
Now the chaos of Brexit is on page 2 of all the right wing newspapers. Corbyn has been hated by the plp for forty years so has developed a hide like a rhino. The Blairites want Jezza gone because he’s going to be in a position to make them squirm come Chillcott. Whatever happens Corbyn is finished
Angus robertson takes a long while (good) to list all the things that Sturgeon is doing and people she is meeting.
He also asks CMD:
Q: Did CMD mention Scotland, Gibraltar and London in his discussions yesterday in Brussels?
A: “I did” says CMD puffing out his chest.
CMD’s hearts not in this now, just going through the motions, roll on new PM I think he is feeling it looks a bit older since last week.
I don’t think the snide remarks about Angela Eagle or Tom Watson are called for. I’m sure you’ll say something warm-hearted in response to this, if at all, but that’s the sort of thing I’d expect to read from Paul Staines and his mob.
Anyway, you’re generally right that it’s hard to see how Labour is going to survive, let alone win an election. Which is a tragedy for the people of these islands because it would mean that outside Scotland we’ll be left with politics centred around the Conservatives and Ukip. But you guys will be okay – Nicola Sturgeon just needs to get on with it.
#indyref2 + #londependence
Please God*, Get me out of this asylum, I’m slowly losing my mind….The party members want him, He’s popular in the parties rank and file, but the MP’s in his own party don’t want him in charge…..Lunacy..
The Prime minister abdicates, and leaves the rest of the wolf pack to scrabble about for what’s left of the UK.
The “Wolf Pack” all go into hiding and start backtracking on what they promised.
The racist section of the country have now been allowed to vent their spleen at the immigrant section of our society.
I’m beginning to think that this country needs a reboot….
*God used for illustrative purposes only. Other deities are available although results/existence is not guaranteed
Well done on that summary of catastrophe. Its like watching someone fall down stairs over and over. Another Brownian legacy for his scotland region. Hard core BoJo/May tory rule for decades, Brexit recession with possible depression, is there any way out?
Alex Salmond says Bomber Bliar’s already been given the bits of Chilcot what he’s in but no one else has. Says it UKOK all today, or at least this lunchtime.
David Coburn Tweeted :
“Why do SNP even have MPs in Westminster if they don’t recognise uk”?
Can anyone see the IRONY/STUPIDITY in this tweet ?
It wasn’t Corbyn’s luke warm campaign to remain that that caused voters to opt for brexit, it was the excitable Eddie Izzard’s performance on Question Time that swung it for most people.
Ken500 says:
29 June, 2016 at 12:48 pm
They are all gong on holiday soon. 2 months. The Tories are a dangerous laughing stock. Unbelievable.
If those chumps go off on holiday (after causing all this shit), they may not have a UK to come back to in two months time.
RE: Farage – folks, don’t think for a minute that Farage is back-tracking – he is deliberately grumbling about betrayal etc to position UKIP for the coming GE. Think about it – if, as expected WM drags its feet over Brexit, there are going to be an awful lot of disgruntled Labour votes in England up for grabs. The tories may lose some votes to UKIP, but not half as many as Labour will.
So, a minority, right-wing tory government, propped up by a sizeable UKIP grouping with a splash of the usual ulster bigots for good measure seems to be an ever increasing possibility. If that does not terrify you, then nothing will.
Rev, I’m not sure how you’re managing to keep anything straight in this madness, but heroic effort yet again. My napper is just about ready to burst jumping from feed to feed and channel to channel.
Dear God, they’re utterly insane. Mounting a coup at this time is so far beyond simple negligence, its dereliction of duty and responsibility on a galactic scale. FFS! This is a constitutional and economic crisis on a near unprecedented scale in this era and these fuckwits pick this time to bring out the daggers? Westminster is welcome to them and my heart goes out to their constituents and the folk in England looking for ANY kind of leadership right now, never mind progressive and responsible.
Only one question to ask our own population right about now?
Are we feeling better together yet?
Is 80% of the Parliamentary Labour Party so scared of what Chilcot will reveal, and of what Jeremy Corbyn will do with the revelations, that they will do almost anything to get rid of him before it comes out?
Including committing collective hari-kari.
Surely they must have more than an inkling of what is in it. In that case, it’s going to be quite a report. Maybe New Labour has reached the point of no return. They may think they’re on the brink when in fact they already over it and in free fall. … Lemmings down the cliff … over and out, bye bye.
Could this implosion finally free the Labour Party in Scotland from Westminster control, once and for all? Dugdale is completely inconsistent and unreliable, and always likely to backtrack on everything. But she does now seem to envisage a Federal UK, with the Union becoming so loose that some parts (countries) in the Federation could be EU members while others would not.
Surely completely unworkable, but the fact that she suggested it is to be welcomed. In the unlikely event that the EU did offer that Federal solution during the forthcoming negotiations, and the UK government still refused it, Nicola Sturgeon would be fully justified in calling Indyref2 (having exhausted the alternatives). She might even win Labour support for independence. How could Dugdale refuse such support – except of course by being inconsistent, unreliable and backtracking on everything?
It is significant that Schultz of the European Parliament (whose name I may be mis-spelling), after talking with Nicola Sturgeon earlier today, said simply ‘I listened and I learned a lot.’ That is very positive. We should not kid ourselves that Europeans, even highly educated and intelligent ones in position of considerable, know anything about what Scotland is, including its constitutional position within the UK. They have a lot to learn about us (and even about what the UK really is, and how its component parts fit – or do not fit! – with each other). NS is getting her foot in the door at the right moment.
Scotland should take advantage of this chaos there may never be a better opportunity. I do not recall in my adult life a time when the government and opposition were in such disarray and I can’t see it happening again. The time is now.
If it wasn’t such a UKOK catastrofuck, it would be funny
FT says
Brexit backers hit by big losses on company shares
Business leaders who were among the biggest donors to the Leave campaign have had almost £500m wiped off their holdings in quoted companies as stock markets have tumbled in the days since the EU referendum.
Peter Hargreaves, who founded financial adviser Hargreaves Lansdown and was the second-largest donor to the Leave campaign has been the biggest loser. His 32 per cent stake in the group fell by about £400m in the days after the referendum — somewhat overshadowing the £3.2m he contributed to the Leave cause — as Hargreaves’ share price dropped. A rebound reduced his paper losses to about £330m by Wednesday morning.
Tim Martin, chairman and founder of pub group JD Wetherspoon, Peter Cruddas, who has a 62 per cent stake in spread betting firm CMC Markets and Next chief executive Lord Wolfson were also nursing large losses.
Mr Martin’s 30 per cent holding in the Wetherspoon pub group was worth almost £30m less by Wednesday. Mr Martin was a vocal supporter of the Leave cause, donating at least £224,000, and encouraging his customers to back the campaign.
Excellent! We will need this to go with the WBB. Any No voter who proclaims socialism needs to join hands, show them this.
Be under no illusion, they will lash Scotland to the front of this sinking rust bucket, as they continue to hole the structure below.
Those Remainers down south are already adopting memes from our Indy campaign. They are the 48%. Wait till the Leavers point out its lower than that when you remove Scotland. The Leavers are fighting back big time, with memes of WW2 soldiers, saying these people did not steal your future, they fought to give it to you.
I’ve almost retired from FB, because it’s just voyeuristic now, and my party will be gearing up soon.
Have to laugh at the EU statement debate just now. They are all EU experts now, telling the world all the monies that will be lost in grants, and tariffs will be applied.
Of course a Tory pops up and asks Cameron – did you detect any regret that they did not give us better concessions.
What a stinking, heaving, arrogant cesspool.
The Labour leadership coup was on from the moment Corbyn was elected (McTernan certainly (allegedly) promoting it in the background after voicing it openly). It was only ever going to be a matter of when an appropriate excuse came up to set the coup wheels in motion.
That the Brexit vote was chosen as their ‘appropriate excuse’ just shows how desperate the plotters were to get started, if you will.
The Blairite coup plotters are a shameful bunch of self-seeking, fuck-the-electorate, careerist scum.
So then, goodbye Labour, and thanks for the fuck-all you did, at least in Scotland.
Labour Blairites: “We had to destroy the party to save it.”….
Great summation of the current problems of hoping for a Labour party opposition.
One minor thing. Wrong suicide squad. More like the that of the Judea Peoples Front turning up at Brians crucifixation
Jake,
Was it half-hearted or was it just not reported?
link to twitter.com
Murray knifing JC was a really cruellest cut thingee, considering JC had the big pud on the House front bench seated right beside him at every Prime Minster’s Question Time. Sneaky shit doesn’t come close.
Rev, even if the Tories wanted to call an early GE would they get the two thirds majority they’d required under the Fixed Term Parliament Act to allow them to do so? That would require a large portion of the current opposition to agree to it. Would the Labour ‘rebels’ vote to put thier seats at risk?
It is beginning to look like every country in the world wants Scotland to be Independent except England.
“Those whom the Gods would destroy…….”
I know its an old, worn out cliché, but it’s the only explanation for the current madness afflicting the British establishment.
And where is the Queen? Why is she keeping schtum? HM should be taking control at this stage. At the first sign of trouble with the racist attacks etc after the Brexit vote, the Queen should have been on the screens condemning it, ordering the nasties to stop (not in her name) and assuring all people in the UK that they are welcome here. Regardless of what the government or her advisers said, she should take control – the BritNats will “obey” her and lay down their arms. If she cant even do that, then what do we pay her for?
Caught in the headlights? Or perhaps something darker. The Royal silence is deafening.
Brand New Labour coming soon, somewhere down the line.
The mind boggles at the political farce playing out right now.
In another GE what chance a clean sweep for SNP Scotia next time around? Liars beware.
Apologies for quite a few grammatical mistakes in the above post. The most important was probably to have left out the word ‘responsibility’ in the sentence saying that we ‘should not kid ourselves that Europeans, even highly educated and intelligent ones in positions of considerable RESPONSIBILITY, know anything about what Scotland is …’
Move to the bottom of class … Or, if already there, proceed to the corner … !
Heedtracker: “Murray knifing JC cruellest cut considering JC had the big pud on the front bench seated right beside him”
And Kezia kicked him off the buss too… they’re awe feart of losin’ their jobs come the next Tory General Election.
More here: link to wp.me
If the only tool you have is a hammer, then everything starts to look like a nail.
I count myself lucky to have avoided the burden reflected in this piece, of looking at the world through a filter that presents such an angry and frightening environment to the author. Democracy by its nature is subject to the ebb and flow of opinion between groups and factions within its constituencies and never delivers the aspirations of all its participants. Vive la difference.
Parliamentary democracy delivers better long term outcomes for the vast majority of citizens than referendums do. Referendums tend to reflect binary and marginal splits in a population and are often used by political leaders to justify otherwise unjustifiable actions without sound evidential base. These types of differences are better moderated and resolved within a parliamentary system and in slower time.
I think, although it may be debateable, that if WM refuses to acknowledge the referendum result, the UK may be in a position of failing to meet EU membership criteria.
Democracy is a fundamental requirement and applicants which do not demonstrate compliance with the democratic process fail at initial screening.
Of course the EU, famously, has no established expulsion protocol, however, there are measures they might take which could force the UK out. No council or parliament access, fines, possibly even unilateral rebate or contribution adjustments.
I wonder what view the ECtHR or the ECJ would take to the inevitable Leave campaign supplication?
I think the best they can do is to seek another mandate by either election or referendum.
I am just enjoying the absolute chaos in the two main unionist parties.
They have created a complete mess in England UK as a result of this EU referendum, and I doubt any of them
have the faintest a clue as to how they can sort things out.
Good analysis Rev.
I personally would have put Chilcot right up there as one of the main reasons this is happening.
Corbyn has stated that Blair should be tried as a war criminal if the report is that bad. Most of the PLP are still beholden to Blair and many of those that orchestrated the coup against Corbyn voted for the war in Iraq and the bombing of Syria.
The report is going to be debated in Parliament, the leader or ‘appointed speaker’ from the Labour Party will have to make an official response. If Corbyn were to stand up and say Blair is a war criminal and should be tried it would be sensational, the Labour Party as it stands is trying to stop that response being made by Corbyn. They would much rather someone like Hillary Benn made it.
Even yesterday Alistair Campbell let slip when he claimed that ‘Corbyn must be gone in two weeks’ which fits in perfectly with the debate in Westminster.
For fcuk sake, Rev this is insane.
I’m with those who believe that IndyRef2 should take place this year.
Right now, the enemy is in total disarray, splitting into different factions on a daily basis.
It is a perfect storm of Westminster and British Establishment fuckwittery, which may never occur again.
Before the enemy regroups, let’s have IndyRef2 – we may not have a better opportunity.
NB. Having said all that, I still put my full trust in Nicola Sturgeon to know when the timing is right, whenever that may be. She has been, and is a leader par excellence. We Scots are extremely fortunate to have her as our First Minister at this time in our history.
So then, I will curb my impatience until such a time, but as soon as Nicola Sturgeon gives the call… it’ll be on, very, very ON!
@Martin Richmond
So the elected representatives in Westminster hold supremacy over a referendum? A fair enough argument and one which was used for decades in Scotland until the SNP came to power.
Assuming that idea regains currency, let me see now, how many pro indy MPs does Scotland have, oh yes, 56 out of 59 I believe.
Oh and I agree, the Rev has nailed more than the rest of the MSM put together over the past 4 years.
Grouse Beater says:
29 June, 2016 at 1:29 pm
Heedtracker: “Murray knifing JC cruellest cut considering JC had the big pud on the front bench seated right beside him”
And Kezia kicked him off the buss too… they’re awe feart of losin’ their jobs come the next Tory General Election
It’s like England/Iceland Euro 2016. Hard to watch. Say Blair and Brownite red tories do decide to spin of into the all new and exciting NEW Labour, who’d vote for them?
Lefties will hate them for destroying the Labour party and using Brexit to do their worst just makes them all even more ghastly. Blue tories wont bother with them.
Lest face facts. SLab dudes like Murray are only MP’s because Morningside tories had no other choice. So he might have a safe seat now but Scotland’s nearly away. A sneaky thick shit.
Small skirmishes erupt in ‘Scottish’ labour land (no names quoted)
regarding Corbyn and the ex-Sec of State for Scotland’s resignation.
Who are all these un-named powerful people in the ‘Scottish’ labour party
link to archive.is
If Yoon polls are showing support for Independence in fifties, you can bet your bottom Dollar that the true figure is probably over 60 percent.
Oh and Kezia Dugdale made a complete hash of yesterday with her ‘if I lost 80%’ etc.
The reverse is true.
The last time the PLP had to actually vote on Corbyn was during the party election. Corbyn received the nomination from 36 Labour MP’s.
Yesterday, 40 Labour MP’s voted in his favour, so he makes a gain of 4 votes or @ 13%.
The rest of the votes he never had in the first place, and as far as I’m aware you can’t lose something you don’t have unless the laws of physics have changed overnight, so Dugdale’s claim of ‘losing 80% of the support of MP’s is absolute shite.
Please someone ask Dugdale on Twitter how you can lose something you never had ?
On the upside, worldwide shares in popcorn futures are going through the roof.
Hard to comprehend the levels of stupidity within the Labour party. What on earth made the rebels think that this was a good idea? The mind boggles.
Then again this was the same party that game up with Milliband’s megalith and thought that that was a good idea.
Who all thinks Blair had a hand in orchestrating all this latest strife in the Labour Party prior to Chilcot being released – or is it just me?
Scotland has been ridiculed, mocked, denigrated, dismissed and demoralised year after year by THESE people for my entire life and when challenged on it mocked again and referred to as banter and if challenged further we are wingeing Jocks with no sense of humour and there’s no need to be antagonistic
England rules by weight of numbers, not democracy, Scotland never signed up to be ruled we signed up to be United and then England changed the rules to dictatorship by bending and breaking every rule in their favour in order to dominate, totally
The rules have always been Scotland is free to exercise democracy until the UK doesn’t like it then The UK says democracy is what WE say it is whether Scotland likes it or not
These are the people to whom Stu’s article refers and we can all see them in all their undemocratic glory “The King is dead long live the King” except it doesn’t really matter in England if they die or not they immediately pop up in the House of Lords or become commentaters for the corrupt media and still get to have more say over Scotland than we do
When a newsreader like Kaye Burley can have an affect on Scottish politics there’s something hugely wrong with the system that empowers folk in another country elected or not to be considered important enough to be listened to
Even in Scotland we suffer from the same problem when a morning chat show womans opinion counts, or an ex rugby player is considered an authority on politics, yet when our own elected First Minister given authority to act for us is derided by those same people it’s acceptable behaviour and should be listened to
Scotland’s habit of dimissing it’s own in favour of others has been entrenched and driven in to us for years and helped and assisted by those very politicians in London we’re watching now, is there anybody left in Scotland in any doubt as to what should happen next and who should make it happen
England is conducting an incestuous relationship with itself and the resulting inbred idiocy of the politicians it has produced is of their own making, yet still there are people in Scotland prepared to “wait and see whit happens”
So far nothing has, it just keeps getting worse and in slow motion we’re all watching it and the folk who are still waiting for the idiots to sort it out are even more stupid than the idiots
Time to get a grip Scotland
Major,
you were looking for an article the other day and i posted it but it was at the bottom of the thread so you may have missed it.
“The Scots were never big enough to break the Union. That’s always been a job for the English.”
link to nationalcollective.com
I notice the unionists mantra about the EU referendum appears to be accept the result and move on.
Everything you need in that one article above to prove that “Labour” do not believe in democracy – Red Tories right enough!
Other than that i have absolutely no interest in the inner workings of a disgraceful and shameful political party devouring itself from the inside out.
I think they’re suffering from a political necrotising fasciitis.
The sooner the patient has been devoured the sooner we rejoice.
Most of the ex Shadow cabinet are embroiled up to their necks in the illegal war and Chilcott. They are a disgrace. Corbyn has more courage and honesty than any of them. He had watch taking a walk in the Park perhaps that is why the police guard has increased. Nothing is beyond Blair or Brown. The innocent, vulnerable lives that gave bed lost for their personal gain. If Corbyn was to stand up and declare Blair a war criminal. It would save the Labour Party in England.
Brown peddling more of his lies. Who elected or asked him. The mass murdering, banker fraudster. How much has he cost £Trns. A public disgrace.
There are three Labour parties.
The voters.
The activists.
The elected representatives.
The overlap in views, aspirations, fears, class, policies, and attitudes of these three groups is an issue.
The same applies to all parties, most of the time. However the disconnect in the SNP is minimal, in Labour it has been allowed to drift enormously over the last 20 years,
The activists are only a tiny subset of the voters. Activists and politicians now seem to be world’s apart. Politicians no long take on board the views and concerns of their voters.
No one could now pull those disparate groups back together. Their current single entity status is doomed.
@Jimbo
Please Sir! Me!
Said as much on a previous thread yesterday. Blairites trying their best to effect any fall out.
Jeremy says “It’s the possibility of the clink if he’s taken to court and found guilty”
PS:
New Poll stuff.
link to scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk
link to archive.is
I wonder if this has more to do with the Chilcot Report than anything else. The right of the labour party will do anything to protect there mentor.
UKOK ex-pat panicking is pretty sad too.
FT again.
No Brexit, please, we’re British: expats try to secure life in EU
Large numbers of expat Britons live in the Dordogne, France, but some fear for their place post-Brexit
The 1.2m British expatriates living in EU countries face losing the right to stay in their properties year-round as well as the ability to work visa-free, lawyers and property experts say
But Mr Peretz warned that unless the UK agreed to allow EU nationals to continue living in Britain after Brexit, a UK expat’s position would “become exactly the same as [that of] an American or an Argentine”.
He added: “Anyone British who is in a position to get citizenship of another EU country, through marriage or investment, would be well advised to do so.”
WTF did Leave votes think would happen?
Craig Murray has interesting stuff to say about Chilcott and Peter Oborne’s book “Not the Chilcott Report”:
link to craigmurray.org.uk
Sorry if that link doesn’t work or gets me killed with hammers.
I rather suspect the UK’s perfect storm has a further depression moving in from the Middle East and bringing more storms and unsettled conditions next week.
Fears are growing about a global shortage of popcorn.
@Dr. Jim
Now you sound like Nigel Farage.
I can see the point in Scotland not bothering with MPs in Westminster, I can see the point in not allowing Scots the vote, I can see the point in not having a National Football Team, and I can see the point in not calling us a Country,when Colony seems to fit the bill better.
Our MPs are treated with contempt by all parties in Westminster and by every form of UK media that there is.
Why pretend that a Scots vote actually achieves anything?
If we look at the EU referendum, and propose that Every Single Scottish Vote was for Remain, i.e. 0% Leave votes, do you know what, you would still be leaving the EU.
In political history, Scottish votes have influenced the result of an election only once in over 300 years.
Do you think that reasonable or fair, or we all want someone from a neighbouring country to force their will on our will, even if we are 100% against their proposals?
Anyone watching the Euro Football event, can see the passion that the Icelandic team have in representing their country. Is it because they jailed their corrupt bankers and sacked their corrupt politicians before clearing their debts as a nation in unison?
I can remember the last time Scotland players rolled up their sleeves and fought like that for their colony?
Perhaps if all of our token, pretend “powers” were removed, more Scots would fight, or at least shout out, in hope of standing on its own 2 feet by taking control over its own affairs.
Wasn’t burying Brexit the whole point?
Yet the “rebels” chose instead to publicly quit one-by-one over a period of several days, ensuring that the story stayed in the news all weekend rather than the chaos of Brexit.
Things moving a pace.
Merkel and Hollande say they will remove ‘passporting’ from UK banks taking away their right to work freely in EU. The main beneficiaries would be the French who want to see Paris as the financial centre of Europe.
Also Spain PM says in up out Scotland out. A bit disgruntled over Catalonia.
Oh well. It’s getting interesting.
FT again!
EU leaders have given their strongest signal yet that Britain will not be allowed to cherry pick its new relationship with the bloc, warning that it will not relent on the rules for access to its internal market.
Speaking after EU leaders met for the first time as a 27 member bloc in Brussels today, European Council president Donald Tusk said there would be “no single market a la carte”.
He said leaders made it “crystal clear” that Britain would have to accept all of the four sacrosanct rules guarding the free movement of people, labour, capital and goods if it wishes to access the single market.
This dashes hopes from the like of Boris Johnson, leading ‘Leave’ MP.”
My Slovene girlfriend will have kittens, statesman like kittens.
Adam Tomkins MSP Retweeted
nigel biggar ?@NigelBiggar 6h
nigel biggar Retweeted Adam Tomkins MSP
For a statesmanlike Unionist contribution to Scottish debate about Brexit, see Adam Tomkins:
Bonjour Ailes, does anybuddy remember this tune from yester-years?
‘En passant par la Lorraine‘
link to youtube.com
Nice hat.. avec mes sabots 🙂
The Herald (whose front page this morning was as bad as the Mail and Express in denigrating our First Minster’s attempt to salvage something from the Brexit wreckage) reports on Labour establishment trying to conjure up support for Ian Murray after he was savaged by many ordinary party members over his disloyalty. link to archive.is
Murray’s office was closed on Tuesday afternoon when angry party members in Edinburgh demonstrated outside his constituency office.
Strangely this was not reported by the BBC or by the local press who normally hang on his every word.
Why is there no coverage by the BBC / MSM on orchestration of the Blairite coup to topple Corbyn.
An exclusive investigation by The Canary reveals that the current Labour ‘coup’ being instigated against Jeremy Corbyn appears to have been orchestrated by a PR company where Tony Blair’s arch spin-doctor, Alastair Campbell, is a senior advisor.
He sits alongside several other figures, all of whom have direct links to the centre-right of the Labour party, and the Fabians at Portland Communications.
Portland Communications is a political consultancy and public relations agency set up in 2001 by Tim Allan, a former adviser to Tony Blair and director of communications at BSkyB.
One of the masterminds is Gregor Poynton partner of former Labour MP Gemma Doyle.
link to thecanary.co
Survation, 24th-28th June
Yes 53% (+5)
No 47% (-5)
Just a thought … do these polling companies ask 16-17 year olds, or do they have ‘standard sampling’ of over 18s?
Suppose the datasets answer that question.
The English and their skewed figures suggest that Scotland is subsidised by them.
We Scots say that no, in each of the last 35 years, Scotland has subsidised them.
Rather than argue, why doesn’t those that control the UK not agree to let Scotland take control of all the money that it raises and spend only what that budget allows.
We would then see who the devious liars are.
Come on you No voters, do you actually think that England is fighting to keep subsidising you with their money?
Not on your Life!
They love us so much that they tried to steal £7 Billion from Scotland’s budget over the next 10 years.
I can and will do without that kind of love thankyou!
Brexit gave me the opportunity to air my pro-SNP, pro-independence views last night with some friends who clearly have never given any serious thought to the future of this country.
One was dismissive of what I said. She was frankly astonished. She does not know how competent and alert the leadership of the SNP is. She commented on the poverty of debate at Holyrood. I’m inclined to agree – the opposition is embarrassingly inept. She does not see Scotland’s potential. She’s comfortably off, she’s English, she’s of a certain age. She laughed rather nervously, shook her head and wouldn’t really engage.
The other one listened attentively and asked some pertinent questions. My final remarks were rather like the Rev’s conclusions – unless independence, then with a Labour Party that is finished, we face the prospect of generations of hellish right-wing, anti-Scottish government from Westminster that will continue to asset-strip.
I could have done with a couple of Wee Black Books to hand.
I had to shut up at that point since the rest of the company were very obviously changing the subject. I’ve crossed swords with another one of them during the referendum of 2014 – also English, funnily enough – who didn’t much like my SNP badge and who ‘pitied me’. Judging by other stupid things he said to me, Project Fear had got to him in several ways.
I’ve definitely sown some seeds though. Each of us must do our bit. It’s getting easier.
Martin Richmond says:
29 June, 2016 at 2:02 pm
@Dr. Jim
Now you sound like Nigel Farage.
_______________________
Is that you, sensible Mazda whoore?
So 4% of the UK Independence Party voted against UK independence from Europe?
Ummm…..
Love that picture in the article above, between numbers 5 & 6.
Every spook monitoring this site just shit themselves, screaming how did that Campbell B@$t@£D get his hands on my picture?
link to wingsoverscotland.com
I’ve already left in the taxi, i’ll get my coat later!
🙂
Jeremy Corbyn did what I would have done if in his place during the Brexit referendum: Calmly position himself to remain in the EU, no more, no less. Everyone seems to have forgotten that the Brexit referendum was a Tory party V Tory party fight, a public free-for-all where everyone was invited to roll up their sleeves and pile in. Why should he help any Tory? This is especially true after the lessons learned for Labour during Indyref.
I’m genuinely unsure as to whether the Blairite MPs have any self awareness at all when they talk of putting the party and country first while trying to oust JC at this historic moment.
Lol
You can’t have a Referedum before the terms are set out. Contribution levels etc. That is what they are doing.
The last thing Westminster or the EU wants is Scotland or NI out. That would increase the contagion. Make it even worse. They offered a deal on full FFA/Home Rule and reneged. So a Independence Referendum2 it will be. NI has fuller FFA , more powers, than Scotland. It is subsidised from Westminster but could reunite. NI gets Norwegian levels of funding.
Brown is lying on Trade. No good with figures. Scotland exports go to EU and worldwide but the goods go through London because Thatcher centralised transport through London (congestion) Built 26 miles of Tilbury Docks and Canary Wharf (secretly) with Oil revenues. They could be included in the Trade figures. There are alternative routes. Salmond to China, whisky, and goods to Asia, US. Oil worldwide, fuel etc. A high percentage goes overseas.
If England did not trade with Scotland. The prices for goods would increase or there would be shortages in the rest of the UK. Scotland has a high trading position.
Fishing and beef industry export to EU. Fisherman/farmers would have more difficulties exporting to EU markets, Important customers. They need EU migrant workers.
A Norwegian type trade deal with the EU would cost more and make costs higher and more difficult with less control. It is less appropriate for Scotland. Different trading conditions. Different geographical positions.
We need a oscar red carpet for Angela Eagle [ he did,nt reply to my email] greeting.
and another blue carpet for Anny Soubry { my 84 yr old mother was greeting on friday ] {quick recovery for her children at Uni}.
naebodys buying your false faced lies ,yous can huff n puff awe you,s want.
I went past Ian Murray’s office on Tuesday at about 1.40pm. There was no one outside and the main door appeared to be open.
In other news: US bank JP Morgan has said it now expects Scotland to vote for independence and introduce its own currency before Britain leaves the European Union in 2019.
link to archive.is
ScottiDog,
I think for Rajoy it’s more about Gib.
If there were some daft ‘federal’ solution whereby we stay in the EU and the UK, it would apply to Gib as well.
He is already going for joint sovereignty if they want to stay in.
There is a key lesson from what’s happening among Tories at present following the EU referendum, namely lots of different views emerging on what voters for Brexit actually wanted, what leading Brexit campaigners actually promised; and what Brexit really means anyway!
Lots of wriggle room is now appearing. And this is before the debates on the terms of exit get started in Parliament on the detail to agree a way forward that is acceptable to a sufficient majority of (English) MPs.
Indyref1 was influenced by a vague Vow, the promises then diluted through the Smith Commission and legislation pushed through by a UK Government with no regard to amendments tabled by the majority party in Scotland.
My conclusion is that when Indyref2 comes along, anyone tempted by some intermediate solution (e.g. a newly framed devomax, a federation or some UK-sanctioned associate status in the EU) should reflect on how little we can trust a Westminster government and parliament to deliver.
Anything short of the clarity of full independent status (with an EU relationship, should we wish one, that is based on terms that Scotland’s government negotiates) leaves far too much room for backtracking and for an unsatisfactory Westminster fudge post-referendum.
This barchart nicely illustrates Abe Lincoln’s famous saying. (You do wonder in particular what on earth the 4% of kippers voting Remain were thinking!)
What effect will Labour’s current turmoil have on their North British Accounting Unit? If it wasn’t for the London purse-strings, you would think they would surely be better off declaring UDI themselves. Even they are not that fu***ed up. (Which is saying something.)
What price El Gordo’s Vow-on-steroids now? Is anybody noticing?
McTernan was always going to work behind the scenes to destroy Corbyn. He extols Tony Blair.
Must attract the tory vote he says.
A bout a year on from that. Seems like his plan is either going to work or blow up in his face.
link to youtube.com
Our old friend Christ Deerin has just joined the Labour party ‘to save it’ , in his words
Just breaking. Juncker and ministers will have talks with Scotland about remaining in EU .”They have won the right to be heard”
That fracking watter must hiv goat intae londinioums watter system,its cracking in it lol.
The next Referendum should have a residential qualification. 2/3years.
Westminster chooses how Scotland revenues are spent not the people in Scotland. Trident/illegal, wars, tax evasion and banking fraud. No representation without representation.
How can anyone speak to them when they will not listen. They never have listened. Scotland is out voted 10/1. They lie and keep information secret under the Official Secrets Act and commit illegal Acts. Control the MSM. Owned by tax evading non Doms. Westminster in undemocratic and has failed the people because of their criminality. They made the Law, break the Law and are above the Law.
Ken500,
But England is going to be the new Singapore, and fully open to trade with the whole world. So the Brexiteers assure us. (Although they haven’t quite worked out an iota of the tricky details yet.) Including with an independent Scotland, one would presume. They’re going to need our oil and electricity, after all.
Hang in there Jeremy. The longer this witch-hunt goes on the more obvious it becomes who’s panicking.
The very fact that the man stood up with all those knives in his back and managed to rub Tory faces in shameful child poverty stats sets him in a class apart from the scum baying for his blood.
WHY WORRY, NO HURRY.
There will not be one Unionist politician at Westminster who is not aware of the fact that England is in complete political disarray, while at the same time Scotland is totally organised. With Independence looking more and more likely for Scotland in the near future, the already shaken British Establishment will know real fear.
The reason behind that fear, is that the UK/England will survive Brexit, but it will not survive Scottish Independence.
It is the prospect of independence for Scotland that strikes terror into Unionist hearts, which is why Ruthie will never stop talking about it. Nothing makes Unionist No voters more afraid than Independence, which is the way the Establishment wants them to be. Control by London through constant injections of fear into the electorate .
So what can we expect from the Unionist parties and from the Establishment’s propaganda outlets, the BBC in particular.
With their usual devious calculations, Westminster is already upping the propaganda war against Nicola, the Scottish Government and the SNP. For the Tories, the EU referendum is over and the consequences will be treated as just business as usual. ‘Why worry, no hurry,’ they will say.
It is right that Nicola visits with European leaders, to make contact and forge friendships and to state the case for Scotland in the EU. But this is an interim measure and of itself will not lead to Scotland’s entry to the EU in its own right. In that context, focusing on the EU as a point of remedy is a distraction. The main event remains achieving Independence. The point of Nicola’s strategy in going to the EU is to build consensus and political unity here at home in Scotland. When that is accomplished, the push for Independence can begin.
The focus of the English strategy will be to attack the consensus in Scotland for membership of the EU as it consolidates. To do this Westminster will attempt, perhaps among other measures, to secure a trade deal with the EU so that the Unionists can say to Scots ‘you don’t need to go into the EU, for the UK already has the trade deal you want’. This explains why Cameron wants a trade agreement first before he triggers article 50.
This won’t be over quickly, but we may very well be in the end-game.
Poor JC. Not quite the Passion but loads and loads of Judas’s, Judasers, Judasi?
link to savinglabour.com
@Bob Mack, good news, have you got a link?
Bob Mack@ 14:28
YES!
The Daily Heil and The Daily Slowtrain will have to swallow their vile headlines now.
Brilliant!
….and the flying pig spotted the buffalo rider,stroking the orange walker in her pocket….
‘All out and the last one’s a duck’ she purred.
Jackanory….jacka….oh,it’s no…
@jimnarlene,
Sorry can’ t do links,but it was on France 24 and also on sky news Flash.
@Bob Mack, no problem, will have a wee look around…still good news.
link to uk.reuters.com
“JP Morgan … now expects Scotland to vote for independence and introduce its own currency before Britain leaves the European Union in 2019.”
To maintain stable markets, at some point there may be international pressure for Scotland to ‘get on with it’ and become independent.
It would be nice to think pressure was also brought on London suggesting they don’t interfere this time!
Wishful thinking?
There’s always the Army. Maybe martial law is better. I’m not joking.
A week today the Chilcot report will be published!
I wonder if it will be on the front pages or lost behind stories about Brexit,the melt down of the Labour Party and the breaking up of Britain.
What about all the Tory election fraud is that no longer of interest?
I have a feeling that independence won’t come before Brexit and that Scotland will have to reapply for EU membership. It’s just the timing, folks – many old NO voters are very worried right now but they are still very stubborn. Of course EU nationals, young voters and middleclass fowk wi pensions/business interests etc may come on board in sufficient numbers but the pensioners remain a very tough nut to crack. And as you know they vote in large numbers. No blame whatsoever, it’s just a new world is emerging and they stubbornly cling onto the old certainties (even though these are disappearing faster than snaw off a dyke). Some will come round, but will enough in time? Hard to say.
Many who voted leave will have to endure the coming shitstorm before they finally realise Scotland needs to leave the UK and rejoin the world.
@Bob Mack
Aye the shortbread Auntie web site has the story but when you archive it it comes up with a different slant from a previous version of Nicola snubbed.
Labour party MP on sky screaming for Corbyn to go because the WM MPs are correct and the labour party card holders are wrong.
Labour MPs being abused on-line she says…Ian Murray cited.
The peasants are revolting democracy at risk 🙂 …were right and Jeremy must go It’s the best for the party and the country.
I see Brexit negotiations are to be a re-run of the Great British Bake-off.
link to twitter.com
I’m sure the EU will very impressed with the level of debate.
Can we send some WBB to those lovely people in the EU parliament?
It would give them something to read when they are having a coffee 😉
Just seen this on WOS Twitter:
“Lots of forthright views from Alistair Darling at the #CFOAgenda y/day, inc. Labour will be ‘annihilated’ at polls if Corbyn stays in charge”
Well, Badger, i see things very differently, who the frack is going to waste a vote on a party that shits on their democratically elected leader if a small group of self-servers object to that leader?
Dr NO knows no other SLab MP, to be fair. Whatever you say about Ian Murray, he certainly looks like he’s a grafter, not in the least.
Scott Arthur ?@DrScottThinks 1h1 hour ago Newcastle Upon Tyne, England
I can believe that people are talking about deselecting Scotland’s hardest working MP.
Sturgeon to meet Juncker et al @ 15:00 BST (~10 min. time as I post this), according to France24.
Spain is opposed to EU talks with Scotland. (Hmm, I wonder why…?)
Seems to me that several years ago Labour reached the organisational state referred to as a ‘Psychic Prison’. The Labour right wing’s neurosis about being in power is threatening complete extinction: right wingers appear to fail to see the disconnect between themselves and the membership, over whom they wish to dominate (who cares about leadership election rules – WATP). Consequently, Labour members finally decided enough was/is enough. In Scotland they could vote SNP, in England……….they can vote UKIP (which many might) ………..or put up a last stand. Good luck to those who are at least fighting for their Party. The outcome doesn’t look good – there doesn’t appear to be any collaborative remedial actions – it appears to be a fight to the death.
Ian,
Child poverty a disgrace, it doesn’t need to be like that.
Compare this with UK income figures.
link to dutchnews.nl
Oh, and the steel is all the fault they dastardly chinese, eh?
link to dutchnews.nl
We are close to getting Blair on trial for war crimes, watching the anti-Scotland parties disintegrate, and getting independence.
Who would have thought this 6 weeks ago.
Time for strong nerves and decisive action. 🙂
link to bbc.co.uk
Spain’s no! BBC vote SLab Scotland in at the kill.
FT says
“If Scotland had voted for separation in 2014 the path to EU membership would have been slow. While the outcome would have been inevitable, countries with their own separatist movements, notably Spain but also perhaps Belgium and Italy, would probably have been obstructive.
Now, Scottish accession would be greeted with open arms.”
Seems that though not wishing to interfere in UK politics ,Mr Juncker and Mr Tusk feel that Scotland has won the right to be heard in Brussels. This is a goer.
The Spanish foreign minister is none too happy at this development but I think the depth of pro Scottish feeling may prevail.
This is more positive than I could have hoped for. Great news that they would even listen to our small country regardless.
I have thought, for a while now that just like USA, the two party system is in fact a one party system.
just each taking turns to implement right wing policies, reinforced today by David Cameron and msm almost maniacal and pathetically desperate attempts to oust JC.
I have no love for Labour, but I hope he sticks to his guns as you say Rev and wins his party back.
BBC vote SLab Scotland says
Spain’s acting prime minister has said he is “extremely against” the EU negotiating potential membership for Scotland.
Mariano Rajoy said he “believes everyone is against it” and that “if the UK leave, Scotland leaves”.
He was speaking as Nicola Sturgeon held a series of meetings with senior EU officials in Brussels.
It’d be interesting to know what EU makes of a BBC that relentlessly monsters all things FM Sturgeon, SNP and particularly Scotland in the EU.
But we’ll never know because the great UKOK BBC lie machine wont tell us.
Luigi @ 14:45,
More doom-and-gloom. =sigh= (You’re not fighting a rearguard action for Leave in Scotland, are you, by any chance?)
According to Curtice yesterday, early polls already show indy ahead, and the implications of Brexit have hardly started to sink in yet.
There is no way we will be out for another 2 years at the very least, and more if the Brexiteers have their way. Plenty of time to win over enough people, even without the aged duds.
If the current crisis comes to a head, indy may be closer than any of us currently think.
BBC 24 hr News
Have the story and interview on Sturgeon getting her say in Brussels but quoting the Spanish reaction to dampen down things so as not to alarm the viewers darn Sarf.
Polls going towards YES mentioned but a dismal looking reporter kept harping on about a long way to go and huge risks for Sturgeon etc etc if she goes Indy2.
Looks like porridge again tomorrow.
Brussels on again now.
link to bbc.co.uk
Listening to feed back from the EU.
How long will it be before the Brexiteers, politicians and voters, realise and accept that there will be very little negotiation on the big items with the EU?
There will be a main offer, take it or leave it, plus some talks about minor details.
It is becoming probable that the main offer will be – pay contributions probably similar to the current net figure, allow free movement of EU citizens, give those citizens access to full public services while they are here, and you can have free trade and reciprocal movement.
This is not what most Leave voters expected!
As far as Scotland goes, the talk so far has been about trade. We will have to ask ourselves whether all the other benefits of EU full membership should be lost.
Concurrently, we also need to consider how much we wish to be ruled by WM, unbridled from the EU, and on a course for mid Atlantic neo liberalism.
@Bob Mack
Juncker: Scotland Has Won Right to Be Heard in Brussels
link to finance.yahoo.com
Robert J. Sutherland says:
Plenty of time to win over enough people, even without the aged duds
==========
You are not the first nor likely the last but I, for one, get pissed off with this kind of remark.
link to reuters.com
Reuters’ UK correspondent in London, William James, claims a poll in The Record on Sunday past shows a majority of Scots do not want a second referendum on Independence. The Record itself meanwhile shows 47% in favour and 41% against.
Even Reuters staff are sometimes rubbish at reporting the truth.
[…] The UK is currently a non-functioning democracy. The Prime Minister has handed in his notice and has no nominated successor. The leader of the Opposition has just been served with a vote of no confidence by 80% of his own MPs. Parliamentarians are openly discussing overturning the result of a democratic referendum. People are pretending that Angela Eagle is a credible future Prime Minister. […]
@ Valerie
Maybe that’s what @Martin Richmond the Arse would hope for but unlike Nigel the Nutcase who incidentally has never turned up for any of the committees he’s supposed to be on in the EU I am now and always have been a supporter of the EU faulty though it is but as a comparison to the UK, well there is no comparison, the UK sucks and has done in my entire life
As to Independence from the UK maybe I do have something in common with Mr Farage except the difference our friend @ Martin Richmond fails or chooses not to notice or accept is Scotland is a country and not a region of England so to be an Independent country then choose to co-operate with others is my aim whereas the UKIPPERS position is to be an Independent DICTATORSHIP answerable to nobody
I rest my nasty vile SNP case (I thank you)
Meanwhile, Radio Shortbread’s Mr know-all/fuck-all, Glen Campbell, was spelling out exactly what Mr Juncker will say & won’t say at the meeting with Nicola. Doubtless Campbell could even wax lyrical on Mr Juncker’s bowel movements if prompted & that the First Minister could have saved herself the trouble of a trip to Brussels by just consulting the Pacifc Quay font-of-knowledge, an establishment arse-licker who has made a very good living for himself by selling Scotland short at every opportunity.
Full independence from the UK should be Scotland’s only goal, no half way houses remember what happened in Ireland when they tried that route.
The British crown never lets go they still claim title to Ireland and even parts of France. Best way out for Scotland is right out.
i welcome the 53% yes poll, but it isnt enough, id encourage all of you to dig out your yes flags, join your local yes, lfi, wfi and ric groups and go to their next meetings, find them on facebook twitter etc
i dont know whether indyref2 will happen sooner or later, but it will happen. the sooner we reach the 60% mark the better, nicola may need to go sooner just to take this chance,
we need 60% asap to give her all of the options she needs
vote yes
Robert J. Sutherland says:
29 June, 2016 at 2:58 pm
Luigi @ 14:45,
More doom-and-gloom. =sigh= (You’re not fighting a rearguard action for Leave in Scotland, are you, by any chance?)
Not at all – I just don’t want to experience what I did on 19th September 2014 again. So many were telling us we were going to win – remember? I agree that things are changing so fast, people can barely keep up, and that’s the problem with cautious voters – if they can’t keep up they get left behind and we lose them.
I am a wee bit optimistic about our chances within two years, but very very slightly above 50:50. However, even if an indy Scotland had to renegotiate, say in 4-5 years time, I think we would get a fair deal because of the circumstances and (more importantly) our strategic and economic importance to Europe.
FT. Will the rest of EU take Rajoy’s dashing of our membership hopes?
“Spanish prime minister Mariano Rajoy has dashed Scottish hopes of retaining EU membership in the case of a British exit from the bloc, insisting that there could be no separate negotiations between Brussels and Edinburgh.
“If the United Kingdom leaves [the EU], so does Scotland,” he told a press conference in Brussels on Wednesday as first minister Nicola Sturgeon arrived for talks with Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker, reports Tobias Buck in Madrid.
“Scotland has no competences to negotiate with the EU. The Spanish government rejects any negotiation with anyone other than the United Kingdom”, said Mr Rajoy, currently acting prime minister of the country.
macnakamura,
I chose my words carefully. I did not write “aged” full stop. (Many, like myself, are in one category but not in the other.)
Listening to Brewer & Clegg of the DR just now. What a bunch of snivelling apologists for the failed RUK. BBC Scotland!, Clegg has the mentality of being brought up in a province. He can’t understand that some people can think for themselves and don’t need to run to London. He looks a worried man with the RoI now wanting to work with Scotland. Little ulsterlander view of thenworld is disintegrating
On the Juncker release? Spain harrumfing as usual because of the Catalonian angle (who knew?), but other than that, a pretty fair visit so far. 🙂
Hi Robert J,
Go easy on us oldies, I’m 73 and been a member of SNP since I was 16, I was for INDEPENDENCE then and I’m still for it. The main thing that we should be pointing out to those ‘oldies’ scared off by pensions etc have just witnessed what a lying bunch of tossers run Wasteminster, we must exploit all these lies that were repeated in the run-up to the EU Referendum and were well and truly exposed.
I know Robert many over 65’s were taken in but already they are saying that they got it wrong. So let’s convince the rest not condemn them.
Auld Rock
Tell you something, if Corbyn is hanging in there to see the Chilcott Report isn’t snuffed out and does light a fire under Tony Blair and Jack Straw etc, then he may be in for some serious vindication, and I rather suspect he’?l enjoy some delicious payback. I suppose the next question is what will be left of the Labour party to take notice.
Reuters did report the UN’s damning verdict on Human Rights in the UK, but its either removed or shunted down the batting order.
I think Spain will change their position when they reflect on things.
First, they will be on their own on this.
Second, the Scottish indy scenario now has even less repercussions for Catalunya than previously since Spain has no intention of exiting the EU.
Third, a continued access to Scottish fishing grounds, albeit on a curtailed basis, is better than none. Although this may be used illegally by Westminster to buy Spanish support as well.
One_Scot says:
29 June, 2016 at 1:24 pm
It is beginning to look like every country in the world wants Scotland to be Independent except England.
Well, apart from Scotland that is, who recently voted against it.
It is illegal under EU/International Law for Scotland to have to leave when it votes to stay in. The Referendum that Scotland did instigate is illegal under EU/International Law. There are no Laws under which the EU can expel a member. It would also set a bad precedent, which other EU member could lose recognition, when they votes to stay in. A bad precedent for the EU Constitution. Under EU Law States/countries have a right to self determination. Scotland has just determined it in the outcome of the vote.
Clegg and Brewer have talked themselves out of job. Brewer’s programme is already going. No audience, no programme. Best ignored.
@ Iain Taylor
“Maybe martial law is better.”
Stop that! Bloody heart attack you game me there. For a second there I hought you said marital law.
On’y kidding Mrs PC.
Mon the rEvolUtion!
Luigi,
I know only too well that feeling you mention, so I appreciate your caution. I would have counted myself among the more cautious also until now. But a re-entry negotiation in 4-5 years’ time is a very different thing from a continuation of existing membership. Probably an even worse case than in 2014, and I’m sure you wouldn’t want that either.
As Shakespeare put it:
“There is a tide in the affairs of men.
Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune
Omitted, all the voyage of their life
is bound in shallows and in miseries”
Pity the poor voters of England, there is no one to vote for that deserves a vote.
Light relief:
Watch the EU parliament member behind Farage from yesterday’s sitting, doing the wanker sign with his hand as Farage speaks:
(It’s a clip from the DR, but not to the DR site…just the vid)
link to c.brightcove.com
Radio Five Live about to report on Spain’s rejection of Scotland’s bid to remain within EU.
Timing of events is now of the essence, Spain may oblect to a country of the UK being admitted but they could not in any way veto the admission of an independent country on the same grounds.
I do not have as many facts as the Government to enable a clear decision ,but we should be ready to “Go” at a moments notice.
Have’nt the Media got themselves all worked up about Northern Ireland very quickly, aweek ago they couldn’t have cared less about that area, now all of a sudden it’s all over the news
Well I suppose it helps them to have to talk less about Scotland and our FM being in Brussels where she has no right to be and it’ll all come to nothing because Scotland is useless and voted NO in the 2014 referendum so shut up and go away or I’ll hide under the duvet eh
Not that I’m cynical or anything about news agendas
Of course, if Scotland were to do something like Indyref2, and win, THEN it would have the standing to negotiate (vs chat informally, nothing binding, just making sure everyone is on the same page…). And the spanish issue is that Catal wants to leave in the constitutionally wrong manner. So, theres a whole other way to read this : hurry up Jock, do it but do it RIGHT
I think we need to get yes2 moving and get a war chest in place
What to do about the BBC though
Tokyo kay was scaring immigrants this morning
Always saying I am sure you will be ok but no mention of the Australian family that had to up sticks when Westminster changes the rules
BBC will be on full war footing for a yes2
Rajoy doesn’t have a majority in his own corrupt Parliament. He is speaking without the support of his own Parliamentary members or the EU. Rajoy doesn’t speak for the EU or the Spanish Gov. The Spanish parliamentary system is in chaos. Rajoy will be gone before long.
Scotland leaving the EU would have a negative affect on the Spanish economy. Holidaymakers, homeowners, employment and trade. Wine cheese, fruit and vegetable produce, migrant workers and students. Many study and work in Scotland. Learn the language. It would cause more contagion in Europe.
Catalonia and Scotland are totally different. Rajoy will be given that information in no uncertain terms.
Auld Rock,
Peace! I’m a relative youngster in comparison, but no spring chicken either. See my earlier posting. No offence to my contemporaries intended, merely a recognition of electoral realities.
As to the likelihood of older voters ever changing their minds, I did like very much the suggestion that (I think) came out of the EUref, that youngsters write to their grandparents pleading with them to think of the incoming generation. That could perhaps have a significant effect.
Latest on the coup
link to thecanary.co
and the fellow who sat behind farage yesterday and put his head in his hands says
link to ec.europa.eu
David Torrance on Sky giving his ‘opinion’.
‘Cos he’s an expert, eh?
Eejit.
When is the next edinburgh March planned
Would not miss it for the world
‘Well, apart from Scotland that is, who recently voted against it.’
What, nearly two years ago, is that your best comeback, yawn.
Feck me!
Even Cameron has resigned from the Labour Party!
link to bbc.co.uk
Scottish taxpayers pay (UK) pensions/benefits. They are taken out of fiscal public spending. £16Billion a year. Paid in Scotland and raised in Scottish tax revenues.
Other Pensions private schemes pay out to their members anywhere in the world. Their members have equal rights as dictated by their terms and conditions.
maknakawitless
Why don’t you grow a pair twat. Some day you may be an old fogey as well, but I think the way your brain cells are going theyl be burnt oot by then.
UKOK? No, UKKO.
Anyway, back to Sturgeon & Co, sounds like the name of a new-age band, one with a go-platinum future: “Something tells me it’s all happening at the “woo”. I do believe it, I do believe it’s true.”
FGS!
Auntie now quoting France & Spain saying UK out Scotland out. But we knew that was the expected outcome.
What Auntie can’t say is what will France & Spain do after an Indy2 YES vote which is another thing.
Spanish risotto off the menu today and French wine to the back of the fridge.
Belgium beer and Brussel sprouts with Scottish strawbs are on and err…more porridge. 🙂
k1
what did you just post?
do not post anything which downloads anything into my pc
With regards to Rajoy and Spain’s disposition towards Scotland, I think its Gibraltar who should be worried. Spain finds itself in a stronger negotiating position since the British are exiting the EU, and if Scotland wants membership, the Spanish can recognise their case for securing concessions. I wonder too whether Gibraltar feels betrayed by the Brexit vote.
Naturally it will be the BBC’s Godzilla piece of the week/month/year. Zzzzzzz….
Perhaps we should all heave a huge sigh of relief that we are existing citizens of the EU, and as far as I know, Spain’s position thus falls short of an arbitrary veto.
Worrying times for Gibraltar, at least until the dust settles on the new arrangement which rUK “enjoys” with Europe.
I declare myself firmly in the ASAP camp. We need to turn this current goodwill and warmth into something tangible. Indyref2 or a UDI followed up with a ratification / constitutional plebiscite.
Nicola is playing a blinder, but it can still go to pieces or be overtaken by events. My feeling is Europe is looking safe, now just get it in the net for Indy, but I’m sure that’s how everybody else feels too.
I would like to give advance warning that after my 65th birthday next year –
I will be trolling the feck out of this site
I will be voting ‘no’ in any indyref
I will be subscribing to the Scottish Daily Mail
I will be building a shrine to Kaye Adams
I will be cuddling up to Ruth Davidson
Well, an old person’s got to do …..
Spain only became a democratic monarchy in 1978. Scotland has been an EU member since 1975. Before Spain. A younger member State can’t veto the continuing membership of an older member State.
sandycraig says:
29 June, 2016 at 3:45 pm
maknakawitless
Why don’t you grow a pair twat. Some day you may be an old fogey as well, but I think the way your brain cells are going theyl be burnt oot by then.
———————-
I have a pair already.
I am old already.
My brain cells are going well enough to realise that you should develop some higher order reading skills, especially comprehension, before committing your lack of thoughts to cyberpaper.
O/T – Brexit and how it might affect aviation
If there are any aeronuts out there who would like to access a free webinar (hate that word), there’s one arranged for this Friday at 1:30pm.
Details and registration here:
link to workcast.com
@shiregirl: “David Torrance on Sky giving his ‘opinion’.”
Let’s face it shiregirl, won’t be long before they’re running out of Unionist “experts”.
Don’t forget the next campaign will be fought on entirely different ground.
With certainty on EU membership
All the universities for. Carefully complied research funding applications became worthless last friday plus most will have EU staff and students plus the nightmare of visas for visting academics etc.
Most big business will be for plus business looking for an english language EU base.
#Brexit pushes UK’s pension deficit close to £1 trillion link to efinancialnews.com
New outlook -Credit Suisse predicts UK recession with GDP -1.0% next year, Bank of England to slash rates to 0.05% and do £75 billion more QE.
These predictions will get worse when ScotInd possibility changes to ScotInd near certainty. The analysts are now all looking closely at UK books not headline GERS figures.
Is this the dictionary definition of a total clusterfuck?
Spain,
that old chestnut, Vote Brexit Scotland get control of fishing, oh can we stop the Spanish fishing in our waters then?
If all they have is a Spanish government with the hump, and lets be honest we would eat our hats if the Spanish Government did anything but look after the interests of the Spanish, for gods sake its pathological with them.
the guardian coning its readership again, no surprise there, not even a decent photo of thousands of Catalonia waving the Saltire, but reporting the statement but ignoring the context, after three,,,, UKOK fuck off!
Spain joined the EU in 1986. Years after Scotland. Spain (illegally?) discriminates against EU resides and doesn’t allow them to vote in regional, National elections or Referendums. EU (Spanish) citizens resident in Scotland get to vote in elections.
Cat I just posted a clip from Daily Record site…hasn’t done any downloading to my pc…so please refrain from unfounded ‘accusations’. Ta much.
Dr Jim @ 1.49pm
Excellent post Sir!
Hey folks.
I am feeling pretty down and negative today about things. I have been reading a few posts and it seems there is less of an upbeat feeling at the moment compared to 5 days ago.
It got me thinking to why am I feeling this way. Then it hit me. I am only talking about myself here but I think some shoukd give this some thought. 5 days ago the media in Scotland was caught off guard. They have started to find a theme now to infiltrate and undermine us. Everything’s going better and independence is coming.
Any negativity is being felt because project fear indyref2 has begun. But it has begun because it’s on again. I mean it’s really on again.
Heads up folks
@call me dave
I read the comments of EU various people differently. Seems to me they’re making a prominent note in everything they say, that they can’t talk to Scotland until we’ve voted for Independence in a referendum.
Hint hint – go for it, we’re with you.
Spain? Spain says what it has to say. In the end there’s realpolitik, and a charm offensive. Buenos Dias, dos caffe con latte por favor. Gracias.
Incidentally, trawling around twitter feeds last night, came across a commission person’s feed who’s favourable to Scotland now (a change apparently), spanish-speaking, and noticed the number of Indy supporters tweeting in Spanish. Good stuff.
For light relief the Indycamp plonkers are now putting their cases.
@BBCPhilipSim
It’s a wonder that McFarlane didn’t get banged up for contempt, although sectioned might be more appropriate.
France can’t veto an existing member. No member States can. It’s IndyRef2. In or out of the EU. Or decay and contamination in the UK. Scotland brought down again by Westminster policies and stagnation because of policies the majority in Scotland did not support. Bad regulations and new opportunties gone.
James has updated his blog since this morning and looks at the EU implications too.
link to scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk
Chic McGregor says:
29 June, 2016 at 3:26 pm
I think Spain will change their position when they reflect on things
I’m not a BBC Scotland news thingee but tonight’s BBC Scotland teatime news headlines are probably going to be “Spain crushes vile separatist EU dream for pissy little scotland region, so shadap and listen to the tories, red and blue”
But that’s just me guessing.
Re the Chilcot Report coming out next week.
My Thought Of The Day—-Remember it was Chancellor Gordon Brown who released the cash from the Treasury to invade Iraq and it’s people.
Whatever happens,I’m sure a Labour government will not be the result. I know both main UK parties are in chaos,but only one of them can call an election,and will do it whenever they want.
If need be,they will get around the 5 year parliament law,they have a majority. Prepare for another decade of Tory rule.
Time a 2nd indy ref and this time we get away and leave the vile little englander guffs to stew in their own bile and misery.
Alex had a few things to say about the coup. Programme still on
http://www.lbc.co.uk/alex-salmond-live-on-lbc—watch-from-4pm-133048
There are few opportunities for Spanish boats in Scottish waters because of conservation measures. EU Law specifies 100 kilometre exclusive radius for each home port.
There are increased quotas for Scottish boats because of new agreements on net size. Conservation nets. No (dead) throw backs. Any government would have to continue conservation measures to increase fish stocks. Migrant EU workers work in the fishing industry, it is still a large industry which exports to the France and Spain. Spanish & French imports come back.
That article in the Canary was very informative of those behind the coup running the media side of it.
However one thing stays foremost in my mind. Give they don’t like Corbyn which Labour politician made any speech during the EU referendum that got a reaction across the country and changed hearts and minds?
Nope even GOrdy struggled to Vow anything significant.
If they couldn’t make a notable intervention in what was the most important decision the country was likely to make in our lifetime what makes you think they will be able to command a government charged with negotiating from a very weak position to get some kind of crumbs from a very angry Europe?
It all points to an attempt by senior Labour figures to divert attention from the shambles that the Tories are in for which the grass roots membership should never forgive them come re selection time.
Some on here are saying Scotland has been a member of the EU since 1975 whereas others such as Spain have joined more recently. This type of thinking will get us nowhere. Scotland is not a member of the EU it is the UK that is and still is the member,so please face facts.
It is not inconceivable that the UK might “remain” by some ploy and not invoke Article 50. Until such time as Article 50 is invoked, Scotland will not be entertained by the EU other than as courtesy exchanges. In my view two things have to happen. Scotland will need to be independent and Article 50 invoked by the UK. At that point meaningful discussions will ensue.
It looks like soft No voters may support independence if Scotland becomes an EU member and this would probably win the day. Imagine indyref2 is announced and then the UK decides to remain in Europe by not invoking Article 50. Which way will the soft No votes go then; probably to the UK and indyref2 will be lost. A very calm head is required at the moment.
Kevin
yes, lets see them shout it from the rooftops when they read Spain’s statements, Oh yes, the EU will boycott Scotland, tomorrow the pound will rise to higher it has ever been before, the trillions in deficit will be paid off, England will win the world cup and all nations on earth will wish to be Englishmen!
I see no part of this union of crowns that actually exists anymore, it is a paper tiger, a ghost story to frighten children, Scotland wants out, take your red and blue conservatives and liar liberals and become all of the the insular little country you wish to be, with you’re superiority complex and hatred of anything foreign, of another mans skin colour, his language and culture.
For the avoidance of doubt the Union of 1707 is over, its finished, politely now Westminster FUCK OFF, there’s a good chap.
Whatever Spain says, it is being driven by more important issues for itself Ie Gibraltar and Catalonia, not Scotland.
Spain may not come round until we have won IndyRef2. It will become clear that Indy is the only way forward well before Brexit. Then there will be two counters running. Indy and Brexit.
We will then have to negotiate with EU, all 27 of them, after IndyRef2 but before Brexit.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the timing down counters are concurrent and Scotland and rUK share independence dates!
link to businessforscotland.co.uk
call me dave says:
29 June, 2016 at 3:53 pm
FGS!
Auntie now quoting France & Spain saying UK out Scotland out. But we knew that was the expected outcome.
Ruby replies
They are probably correct although they omitted to say UK out Scotland dragged out against it’s will.
This is good news for YES supporters not so good for Scottish Labour as they have a plan to keep Scotland in the EU & UK.
‘Scottish Labour seeks possibility of staying in EU and UK’
I would imagine people in the EU looking/laughing at the state of Westminster would understand why Scotland might want out of the Union.
Rajoy doesn’t have a majority and it would seem the other parties are refusing to form a coalition with him.
Exactly englandshire wanted independence during this euro ref and voted for it. As the fascist ukip scum keep saying they got their country back, but that doesnt mean dragging Scotland along against its will. Indy ref 2 and england can fuck off for good!
JC reported to have quit/staying.
maknakamura
Aw man full apologies. Too many posts, no easy to keep up, it’s the brain cells ye ken.
Must learn to read better and take notes.
link to twitter.com
good good, nicola didnt forget to bring her own backdrop and lectern for her press conference.
this visit is historic and worth its weight in gold
The shortcut to a new election is a vote of no confidence followed by two weeks of without a new government winning a vote of confidence. Given the chaos at the moment in the Labour party balances that in the Conservative it’s unlikely to happen. However given Labour can accelerate their leadership process there’s a remote chance they’ll get their act together in the unlikely event the investigations into electoral fraud loses the Conservatives their majority before they have Cameron’s replacement in post.
Oh Jeez, this is just too sweet. 😀 LOL
The press are falling over backwards to rehash indyref1’s EU argument without pausing to consider what’s changed.
Accession, succession doesn’t matter. After article 50 is triggered OUT IS OUT! This is all about HOW Scotland retains 40+ years worth of accrued EU rights. If its to be independence then a fast track reapplication, so be it. If the EU feel like being even more accommodating than that, then super dooper. Either way, promoting the Spain angle with its own Catalonian and fishing problems is a bit on the short sighted side and not least on the part of Spain itself.
For the terminally slow in meejaland, this time round there is no threat of Scotland being carried out of the EU unless we vote no. The UK government have kinda taken care of that issue and defaulted on yet another key pledge of indyref1 in the same breathe. This time round the issue surrounding the EU centres on how Scotland retains its membership.
Blammo!
link to archive.is
UKOK style.
Does that make France and Spain bad Europeans?
Same old tricks by the British state broadcaster to trawl around Europe looking for negatives. Maybe our friends the Irish will have a word in their ear.
So it looks like the only way Scotland can remain in the EU is by being Independent.
So basically it’s IndyRef2 ASAP then.
@Footsoldier,
The single trade agreement is the fly in the UK ointment. The right of people mobility is intrinsic with the agreement. It is one Westminster can no longer agree with due to the referendum result. Any English parties that agree to this will be finished.
They are desperately trying to find a way ,but cannot.
Funny how one day we are a financial burden which allegedly cost them billions they don’t have anyway, but they desperately want to keep us in the UK.
Interesting!
link to ec.europa.eu
you get to the bottom and an understanding of the divergence in what was once called the united kingdom
Footsoldier says:
“Imagine indyref2 is announced and then the UK decides to remain in Europe by not invoking Article 50.”
Very unlikely. I expect nothing but positioning and informal chat before Article 50
I guess the sequence will be…..
Article 50. A two year clock starts.
UK – EU negotiations which should take into account Scotland and NI’s wishes.
It will rapidly become clear WM are not willing to accommodate Scotland nor negotiate for a special status.
As it becomes obvious that the choice is between Indy and a right wing neo liberal unbridled London rule, public opinion will swing further towards Indy.
Indyref2 in about 12 months time, which will be won.
Intention to become independent on the Brexit date.
The EU will negotiate then. It is inconceivable that they reject Scotland’s membership at that point.
[ Negotiations with London and Scotland also proceed. ]
Indy & Brexit on the same day.
perhaps nicola should round off her presidential tour with a quick stop off in …say…. barcelona?
🙂
rajoy (spanish waiter) would just love seeing nicola address the catalunian parliament… snigger
re Spain and BBC and Brit Nat poison.
Does Spain even have a Govt at the moment?
Look chaps you have it all wrong. A couple of spits at Beachy head will sort out the morale thingy and show Johnny Foreigner what he’s up against. Chocks away!
Is it just me or does anyone else think Scotland should follow Norway and seek associated membership of the EU?
Scotland should most definitely leave the UK. I am 110% behind that idea but the way the EU shat all over the Greece elections does concern me.
During indyref the Norway model did hold water in many forms mostly based of Scotland’s similar industry and geographic location. I think a lot of people who were soft yes and no could get there head around the Norway comparison. Cameron already admitted Norway is a successful model of 5 million with oil.
I’d accept EU membership out of the U.K. but I think I’d prefer independence out the UK and out the EU.
Rajoy says no, but the EU is starting the big squeeze on Brexit UK
FT
“European leaders insisted Britain must allow freedom of movement if it wanted to access the single market during their first meeting in Brussels without the UK.
“There will be no single market a la carte,” said Donald Tusk, the EU Council president, as the group met to set out the terms of engagement for any divorce talks in the wake of the Brexit vote.
Charles Michel, Belgium’s prime minister, has been one of the most vocal in urging London not to waste time. “Great Britain cannot afford a long soap opera” over its exit, he said on Tuesday.”
UK.gov must be shitting bricks over art 45, like Russian roulette with a fully loaded revolver, and all UKOK daily heil proto fascists screaming at them to pull the trigger.
Nicola to give an update of EU meetings within next hour. Does anyone have a link.
@ScottiDog says: 29 June, 2016 at 2:05 pm:
“Also Spain PM says in up out Scotland out. A bit disgruntled over Catalonia.”
Nah! ScottiDog, Spain won’t be a problem after they get the message that if Scotland DOESN’T get into the EU in her own right, after the United Kingdom ends, then Spain will be forced to get out of Scottish Fishing grounds for Spain has the largest fishing fleet in the EU and fishes mainly in Scottish waters.
Someone may just get round to telling the Spaniards that Scots are much renowned for holding grudges and for having very, very long memories.
Pomp and ceremony Scottish style this Saturday
Over 2,500 people taking part in a colourful, historic ‘Riding’ procession down Edinburgh’s Royal Mile, including Highland Games,
link to parliament.scot
looks like fun
Forgot to say, Robert Peffers would be proud of me taling about tripartite agreements for Scotland to saty in the EU and UK, and QUADRIPARTITE [google] for NI to stay in the UK and EU.
Just to put Spain’s fears to rest. At present Sturgeon is not negotiating Brexit. She is simply in discussion with the EU to find any possible avenue for Scotland remaining an EU member after Brexit is complete. Sturgeon’s parliament is elected from a population of over 5 million EU citizens via an electorate that includes non UK nationals at risk of having their right of residence revoked against the express will of the majority of Scotlands UK nationals.
Now given that the EU are on record as saying they will not pre-negotiate Brexit it follows that they can do so if they choose to. Spain might be better engaging in any pre-negotiation between the EU and Scotland. Especially as a solution that allows for Scotland to retain membership of bot the UK and the EU would be in Spain’s interest.
Also worth mentioning that fucking over the UK after it’s handed in it’s notice is, within limits, good for the unity of the remaining membership.
K1 at 4.12pm
Clicking on your link downloaded a file to my pc too. Took me ages to find it & delete it.
My bad, it’s over.
‘The Spanish Prime Minister has dealt a blow to Nicola Sturgeon’s hopes of keeping Scotland in the EU.
Mariano Rajoy said no-one in the EU should be negotiating with anyone other than the UK Government about Brexit.’
I don’t believe Nicola Sturgeon wants to keep UK Scotland in the EU she wants iScotland to be in the EU.
Nicola Sturgeon is not negotiating Brexit she is finding out how Scotland can remain in the EU and it would seem that the only way to do that is to vote YES.
Muchas gracias Rajoy. Too bad for Labour/Tory Ruth that you have scuppered their plans to remain in the EU & UK.
Spain only joined the EU in 1986 prior to that they were a Fascist state ruled by a dictator. Rajoy was brought up in a Fascist state ruled by a dictator who enlisted the help of the nazis to bomb the Basque town of Guernica.
‘£110m a year of EU agricultural subsidies is spent in Spain to fund bullfighting.’
Perhaps that is something iScotland could put a stop to when we are in the EU.
“Does Spain even have a Govt at the moment?”
Does the UK?
Given the position of Spain and France perhaps we should make arrangements to return all the bodies of Scottish service man and women who gave their lives to protect the right of Spain and France to elect their own government.
Mr McTernan has an article in the Daily Telegraph – online version – saying that Angela Eagle is just the leader that Labour needs.
Also a very good article on Newsnet about UK’s export position – or lack thereof – with the rest of the World. Some interesting facts and figures in it.
@One_Scot
You just missed it on Sky tv live
Short and cheery basically saying she did what she came to do which was to get Scotland’s voice heard.
Answering a couple of questions to good effect until sky went to the Jeremy thing.
He’s not resigned yet.
Nicola’s Press Conference in Brussels on BBC News Channel.
Looking at the forest of microphones in front of Nicola it is very obvious that the matter of Scotland’s Indpendence and relationship with The EU is not just of Europoean interest but Worldwide interest.
The Spanish government is probably annoyed about NS agreeing so quickly to meet reps from Gibraltar. No matter, we have a fair bit of leverage with them. But France? What about the Auld Alliance?
Qeulle Deception. 🙁
Rancid sends round the begging bowl.
link to archive.is
Same phoney baloney progressive liberals what gave Scotland
link to wingsoverscotland.com
O/t , however does anybody know much about Oliver Letwin apparently put in charge of
Brexit ” negotiations” .If I recall correctly he is on the “extreme far right” of the new ” Tory cabal ” soon to be passed the “power baton”, from the ” old cabal”??
““There will be no single market a la carte,” said Donald Tusk”
Not actually true of course, the Lisbon Treaty contains dozens of Protocols that give individual member states individual choice on some matters, including currency and Schengen, but hey, it’s the UK he’s talking about, not Scotland. Mmmmm.
Poor JC. As if it’s not enough ignominy to be told by a lame duck PM – just go, man!
They have wheeled out Gromits Da, who says I’m not a Blairite, thereby telling you who sent him.
It is still providing huge comedy value. To the detriment of the country, and to their members.
They will be carping from the side lines for decades. The Fib Dems time has come.
Just for a bit of fun and poking the hapless real labour party.
Bercow pretends to be not amused!
link to bbc.co.uk
Have a distinct feeling in my water that moves are affoot to suspend the UK’s EU membership at least until the A50 is handed in or perhaps permanently.
The alleged comment about Farage not being back might indicate that he, at least, is about to be told to GTF.
Not entirely sure how the Commission works whilst a man down. Can new laws be proposed?
Kevin Evans @ 17:01,
For goodness’ sake, stop trying to fight a rearguard action over Leave in Scotland. You’re just wasting your time, and providing an unnecessary diversion from the one and only goal that matters: independence.
The EU gives us a great big lever for indy, so completely stupid to chuck it away.
Once we have indy, you can take your chances with revisiting Leave if you want, but I suspect there will be far more important things to worry about by then.
@Andrew McLean. Andriukaitis knows very well about independence and will be sympathetic to Scotland.
His family was deported to Siberia where he was born. He was part of the Lithuanian underground and came to the attention of the KGB. He was a signatory to Lithuanian independence and helped to bring back the pre war social democrat party. Good friend to have.
Oh Dear, less than 24 hours after Labour and the LibDems came up with a cunning hunky dory plan to distance themselves from the tories, support the SG and keep Scotland in the UK and in Europe as well, I think the Spanish and French have just closed the trap. 🙂
Should have thought that one throught, Kez n’ Willie.
link to bbc.co.uk
Nicola 17mins in roll back the slider thing.
After Nicola Sturgeon, my most favourite politician in the entire world at this time is Jeremy Corbyn.
Never thought I’d ever say that!
Rajay represents no one but himself. He does not have a majority in the corrupt Spanish Parliament and is despised in Spain. Plenty of enemies. It is not up to him. No Member State can veto a present member’s place in the EU.
link to twitter.com
@Kevin Evans I probably agree with you. Get out the UK as a priority but EFTA would be fine. As long as we were absolutely committed to staying well clear of the Euro I’d be okay with EU too.n We NEED our own currency. If anyone is interested in the Greece situation this articke is well worth a read;
link to off-guardian.org
To me this paragraph is the most important regarding our potential future arrangements though… “Another cause of the crisis is the euro itself. The euro is a debt instrument, produced by a private bank (the European Central Bank) accountable to no government, and lent to member-states such as Greece.
The concept of the European common currency was first proposed by economist Robert Mundell, who is also known as the father of “supply-side” economics, and who, in an interview with Greg Palast, had the following to say about the true objectives of the euro: “It puts monetary policy out of the reach of politicians, and without fiscal policy, the only way nations can compete is by the competitive reduction of rules on business.” The euro was created to strip fiscal and monetary policy-making ability from national governments, leaving them without the ability to increase stimulus spending or devalue their national currency to regain competitiveness. The only option left is austerity and deregulation.
What has happened in Greece, therefore, is not an accident or a “failure” of the euro. It was the goal”
@Kevin Evans
Options like EFTA, EEA are interesting, and EFTA made encouraging noises to Scotland during Indy Ref 1, the problem is that it’s continued EU membership is the drive upwards for the YES vote, from Remain voters who were NO voters.
It’s also being a driver for the likes of JP Morgan, and perahps the likes of Barclays and others – perhaps the tip of the iceberg – to move to Edinburgh / Scotland (I think JP is Glasgow could be wrong).
And it seems to me that these banks could be useful for our currency supporting central bank – or even have the commercial banks back our currency.
I love it when a plan (hopefully) comes together. The financial sector votes were a big NO in Indy Ref 1, it looks like they could be an even bigger YES in Indy Ref 2 if things carry on like this.
Yes Lollysmum I hear you and the Cat, but can we just for the sake of clarity remove the implication that it is ‘my’ link? I merely linked from the DR site, the vid was on the DR site, I copied the url and pasted into a new window so that I wasn’t directly linking to the DR site, thereby depriving them of clicks, then I posted that link to the video directly into my post. Never occurring to me that there could be anything ‘malicious’. Not being a computer wizard I have no skills in determining whether any link from the internet is a problem in this regard. As I said nothing ‘downloaded’ onto to my pc/laptop. It’s just a link I posted, I’m actually not responsible for what a link does to a person’s computer…
I have on occasion too had problems from others’ links posted on Wings…but I didn’t feel the need to make out the poster of the link had somehow caused this by posting the thing? I did not ‘admonish’ them for a dodgy link.
Maybe some clever with computer Winger can suss out what the issue is with it downloading to people’s computers. I haven’t a clue what that’s about. 🙁
Two display’s of Graun anti Scots indy propaganda at once. Why Rancid, you’re spoiling us
link to archive.is
link to archive.is
Two SNP bad stories in one day, probably shows our imperial masters are a tad pissed off with their vile separatists right now.
@Robert J. Sutherland
From postings I read during Indy Ref 1 there were a lot of people who would have supported Indy but didn’t like the EU. It is a problem YES 2 will have to address.
Tim Farron being interviewed a short while back, on the BBC;
Clive Myrie: Moving on to the Brexit vote, do you respect the will of the people on this?
Tim Farron: Most definitely, I mean 52% of the electorate of those who turned out to vote, voted to leave, and that’s the direction of travel.
Myrie: So why are you going to campaign, in the next election, on the possibility of a second one?
Farron: Well, we lost the last election, it doesn’t mean that we don’t ever fight another one..
Myrie: So, it’s common or garden practice to overturn a referendum?
Farron: It is common or garden practice to respect the outcome of an election, or a referendum democratically, but to continue to present your case……what we’re saying is, if people feel, on reflection, after leaving the European Union, or indeed having voted to leave last Thursday, that things have changed, that evidence has changed, then I think that somebody has to have the decency to say, “Look, do you want to have another think about this?”, that would be our position in the next election.
That’s interesting! Funnily enough, the BBC seemed fine with that, but one wonders if the LibDems will be on the receiving end of a similar monstering to the one the SNP got, especially from the BBC and other unionist media?
As for Cameron, well, it looks as though he’s lost the plot!
Nicola
Duh! 17hrs and 06mins in
link to bbc.co.uk
Rancid The Graun balance:D
“An EU diplomat said it was “out of the question” for Scotland to stay in the EU following Brexit, saying: “We are a union of member states.”
In Edinburgh, senior pro-EU Scottish Conservatives accused Sturgeon of making a tactical error by embarking on what one described as “freelance diplomacy” in Brussels without working first with the UK government.
Ruth Davidson, the Scottish Tory leader, broadly supports Sturgeon’s proposals to win special arrangements for Scotland with the EU but believes they have greater chance of being listened to as part of the official UK Brexit talks, once they start.
Prof Adam Tomkin, the Tory constitution spokesman at Holyrood, said: “Simply ploughing her own furrow will not work, and will make for an overall weaker case. Sturgeon has already had several rejections on this solo mission, which is why she should be teaming up with the rest of the UK to get the best deal for Scotland.”
My Slovene girlfriend’s been a list tory MSP for about a week, yet national UK broadsheets are now seated at his knee.
Very UKOK creepy.
Do not believe the BBC. The nasty Tories propaganda machine. The nasty, despicable Tories control the Press. Do not believe a word of it. Total propaganda. Nicola & Co will keep folk truthfully informed.
Merkel announced today in the wake of the 27 EU leaders’ meeting (sans Cameron) that a trade treaty between the EU and UK will just not happen without full freedom of movement.
So there goes the Brexiteers plank of “Norway-option”+”full control”. Just one of many glaring flaws that will soon be exposed. But unlike some here, I can see no way that the UK can reverse this thing politically, it would backfire spectacularly. UKIP would go ballistic and there could be riots.
No, they can delay like heck and try to lull people into another false sense of security, but this beast is out and won’t be re-caged.
Just think how many of the old 2014 anti-indy arguments are being put into full reverse!
Heads up! There’s a Gideon on the floor!
SNP had the floor for a long time to restate – we are not coming out the EU!
Good to see Stewart Hosie back on his good form.
When all is said and done, per my earlier post just after 4.30pm, we must not declare indyref2 until Article 50 is invoked otherwise it could be trap by Perfidious Albion.
Only the great British media could attend a Nicola Sturgeon press conference as to her visit and resulting efforts in the EU and then talk over the top of her answers to the questions put with their own opinions and THEN just cut away altogether and invent stuff she didn’t say
I was also interested to watch the Americans on Bloombergs opinion of our FM, now get this, the American version is it’s a power play by Ms Sturgeon because Westminster has no government at the moment and her SNP party is looking to gain more traction there. Now ONLY the Americans could make THAT up
Anyway, it appears that everybody in Europe is saying to our FM Get Independence and you’re IN (but we never said that) and by the look on her face she said (OK but I never said that)
Shhhhh!
60/40 voters on EU. 67% turnout. Huge support for EU membership as opposed for staying in UK.
Bigger turnout 85% – support for Independence. Need 200,000. 5% swing. Increased support already 9%
K1
the link you posted is from a site and format which is notorious for malware. i couldnt sort out your link without exposing myself to the risk
soz if you took offence but it would be a dereliction of duty not to warn others on this site
While working during the night as oft times before, I always have BBC on, and there was a lot of EU Parliament footage on, and I’ve got to admit that as a bit of a eurosceptic though I voted Remain for its own sake, not as a tactical Indy move, I was impressed.
Indy Scotland as well as having our own broadcaster needs to have an EU Parliament Live channel, as it might make a difference. And regular reporting slots from it, at least a couple of programs a week at sensible times, with interviews from Brussels with our eventual 13 MEPs (currently 6). It might help to sway a few of the Leave voters, or at least make them more open and less antagonistic to the EU.
Interesting to listen to two old Labour voters who are nearer to the grave than me on the bus today not happy that Nicola Sturgeon, “doesn’t believe in democracy”. It depends what you regard democracy. Let them stew.
heed:
=groan= Aw shucks, Nicola’s visit must have been a great mistake, then…
…?
“Pro-EU Scottish Cons” – could that possibly have been ole Tomkins himsel’, then? Whatever, these people are miserable self-servers without a clue, quoted in a once-principled paper that is equally clueless.
Pathetic.
@Orri and others.
I referred to this on last thread, it’s excellent. Recently ex Polish EU minister, being very clear, and pulling no punches.
30 mins
link to bbc.co.uk
@yesindyref2 While we’ve obviously just seen a majority in Scotland support EU membership within the UK many will have done so to protect workers’ rights etc from Tory Westminster. Wouldn’t hurt to give the people of iScotland a vote to reaffirm that choice at some point.
State run central bank as the sole currency issuer is the way to go. Float the currency. Taxes in iScotland can only be paid in the Scottish ‘Scooby’ (for example) thus creating demand for the currency.
Don’t know if you’ve ever read any of Bill Mitchell’s stuff but this is a good place to start on ‘modern monetary theory’…not light reading but once you’ve got your head round it you’ll be screaming at the TV any time a neoliberal bangs on about deficits.
link to bilbo.economicoutlook.net
Everything seems to be going to plan so far – as far as I can see:
1) Mandate from parliament achieved;
2) FM doing everything she can in terms of meetings/law/etc to keep Scotland in the EU;
3) Response from EU appears to be “not while you’re part of the UK but the door is open….”
4) Westminster is in meltdown with Chilcott report then the summer “recess” to come – not going to get any sense from there in the next couple of months.
All going nicely I’d say?
@ Ken500 says: “60/40 voters on EU.
Ken, don’t go down the Unionist / Leave route. The figure is 62% Remain, 38% Leave – that’s 62/38 voters on EU.
@ Dr Jim
The US govt/media will never be in favour of Scottish independence until it happens.
The nukes are in Scotland & the US Navy don’t really want “British” subs basing out of Kings Bay if Scotland tells England to take the nukes away. Hence the adverse slant on it.
Corbyn seems to be having an eventful week.
Are you local?: link to wp.me
@ Nana That video of Nicola meeting Jean-Claude Junckers must be photoshopped because all the MSM have said she will be snubbed by everybody in the EU. It’s “Blow for Sturgeon” time again.
Good articles in The Canary too about the connections between all these Labour Fabians, PR companies and Blairites plotting to oust Jeremy Corbyn. I do hope he stands firm. But the stress must be tremendous.
I listened to the speech in Holyrood by President Higgins of RoI. Very eloquent and worth listening to it was. However, I noticed several Labour reps surreptitiously checking their mobliles throughout. keeping up to date with the back stabbing of Corbyn no doubt.
One good outcome is that nobody who comes to WoS believes a word the MSM tells us unless double checked. I would take the news thet Hollande is against Scotland joining the EU with a huge pinch of salt. Notice that the BBC didn’t actually quote him. So unless we get it from the horses mouth – we can ignore it as propaganda.
Rajoy is a desperate man. We can take it he will have plenty problems of his own without a majority in Spain unless he goes into coalition with the Far Right.
Why are the media not suggesting that the Labour Leader is hanging on until the publication of the report of the Chilcot Enquiry in a couple of weeks..
He consistently voted against the Iraq War.
Yup. Spain is actually correct. Said it this morning, don’t get carried away with what the EU can commit to while we are still technically one UK. The EU has no mandate to interfere with the internal politics of a sovereign country, and there are legal ramifications if it does.
It isn’t a snub or a disaster, it’s just the way it is. Informal meetings and discussions are one thing, but as Spain says, formal negotiations and agreements cannot happen while Scotland does not speak as a sovereign power. That’s cool. It’s ok.
We now need to get some decisions made. Do we forfeit a good deal of current momentum and pit Indyref2 against the worst the BBC has to offer? And if we go for a referendum, are we happy to sit and let opinion polls dictate the pace? Or do we take our lives in our hands and lock ourselves into EU hard talks with a UDI?
Prove me wrong, but I don’t think there is any half-way house. Without the sovereignty of an independent nation, we are not competent to sign any deed or contract in its name, and all negotiations are non-binding preambles at best. Move on and see other people if you choose, but you are still married until the moment the divorce is settled.
Without the actual competence of Independence, whether declared by UDI or referendum, I fear we will remain bound to the fate of the UK. It’s not a question about whether we need Independence. We do. The next decision is how we secure it.
Indyref1 was a joy to be part of; a colourful campaign with lots of noise and aspirations but very little happening. Independence at a leisurely stroll…or not.
Indyref2 hasn’t officially begun but its already at the gallop, and bouncing off momentous global events like a ball bearing in a pin ball machine. We have hurtled through so many of the insurmountable barriers of Indyref1 as though they didn’t exist, and with innumerable No voters now declaring for Yes. And ssshhh! Keep it to yourselves. Have you noticed we are no longer separatists?
This is just getting ridiculous. The British public must be complete idiots if they cant see this Labour fiasco has been orchestrated to stop people questioning the Government about what the fuck are they doing to the country.
How can we go into a summer recess without knowing our position on Brexit. There should be NO summer recess the twats should keep working and sort it out.
@Capella, the bbc and right wings press never stopped bettertogether. They are ramping up the lies and spin
read this to see some of what was done to Corbyn yesterday.
link to twitter.com
That’s clearer Cat, as I’ve said I have no idea about these things, it was just the clip that I linked to…wasn’t aware that it was a ‘site’, as I also stated this was from the Daily Record ‘site’. Fair enough to let others know Cat but that wasn’t how you first ‘put it’ to me:
‘k1
what did you just post?
do not post anything which downloads anything into my pc’
This was directed to me ‘specifically’, that I had ‘posted’ a thing which dowloaded to ‘your’ pc. Which wasn’t the case at all. Perhaps if you had just said what you did in your last post I would not have felt ‘defensive’ Cat, not ‘took offence’? Merely stuck up for masel as felt ‘got at’ by you making it ‘personal’ to me. Which you did.
So I’ll accept your apology for making it personal to me…cheers 🙂 And cheers for the info. regarding the link.
One word for Señor Rajoy
Pescado!
For many, Jeremy Corbyn is the antidote to the poisonous polished political establishment. A man in politics, not a politician. The antithesis to the cosy Westminster bubble – where there is fiery debate within the limited confines of neoliberalism. Where the question is how much spending to cut, not how much to invest. The majority of the parliamentary Labour coup crew, the Conservative party, the Liberal Democrats and UKIP are happy to prop up this economic orthodoxy that led to the 2008 financial crash, a massive fall in living standards and further polarised income inequality. UKIP paint themselves as outsiders, but they just harness anti-establishment sentiment to ease their way further into the bubble. The difference is, Corbyn wants to pop it.
Hyacinth Bucket [ or Bouquet ] Keeping up Appearances.
Naw no really, The Canary on the Blairite plot to unseat J. C.
So more spin from the BBC. Kuessenberg / Smith after Rajoy saying the EU shouldn’t talk to Scotland, but only the UK, saying Sturgeon said she wasn’t surprised at the hostile attitude.
No she didn’t. She would have said she wasn’t surprised at Rajoy saying he wouldn’t speak to Spain. She wouldn’t have said anything at all about “hostile attitude”.
Enda Kelly last night at the European council
link to twitter.com
12 minutes 25 seconds.
Looks like this is everything Nicola Sturgeon said at the Press Conference.
twitter.com/james_morgan/status/748185547357716481
Spain has just publicly stated that no discussion can take place between Scotland and the EU abour EU membership because Scotland has not yet regained its independence. This clearly suggests that Spain will not now oppose discussions when Scotland does become independent again. IndyRef2 has become even more likely thanks to Spain.
Headtracker @1.18pm: “Those Remainers down south are already adopting memes from our Indy campaign. They are the 48%. Wait till the Leavers point out its lower than that when you remove Scotland. ”
Not a lot lower, actually. By my calculations, without Scotland, the vote would have been around 47/53 for Leave. I’ve been seeing social media posts from Leavers about how Scotland robbed them of an overwhelming majority; that’s in the ame category of lie that Scotland’s votes for the SNP let in the Tories.
Regarding Spain using a veto against Scotland – I think it depends on the method of exit from the UK and the prevailing political climate at that point.
AIUI Spain may refuse to recognise Scotland unless the method of exit from the UK is “constitutional” so UDI is out.
WGD has an article here, although the fishing part is a tad dubious (IMHO) :
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
The tl;dr is that Spain can’t object if we win a referendum to which Westminster consents. I think that position may be subject to change with a fudge regarding EU citizens rights.
Taken from Reuters just now
U.S. bank JP Morgan said on Wednesday it now expects Scotland to vote for independence and introduce its own currency before Britain leaves the European Union in 2019.
“Our base case is that Scotland will vote for independence and institute a new currency at that point (2019),” JP Morgan economist Malcolm Barr said in a note to clients on Wednesday.
Britannia TV Aberdeen now running what I will just simply call Project Hate Scotland and Sturgeon.
I would have thought it was pretty bloody clear that the EU is pretty much saying go for Indy before any negotiations on “entry” can take place. That is not how the Scot haters at Britannia TV Aberdeen are spinning it though. I wont even bother watching the Brit Nat Brainwashing Corps take on it all as that will no doubt be even worse.
@sputron
Well, prior to 1845, banks in Scotland issued their own currency, and backed it themselves, no central bank at all. That was the currency used in Scotland.
link to scotbanks.org.uk
It was The Banknote (Scotland) Act 1845 that made note-issuing accountable to the Bank of England, hence why now the 3 banks have to cover the approximately £4 billion Scottish notes in circulation with Giants and Titans in UK (BoE) currency to the tune of 100%.
But a proposal by one contributor to the old Wealthy Nation website proposed that in iScotland we could leave currency issue to the commercial banks, who would cover their own currency issue same as pre-1845. They would keep foreign currency / gold if that was appropriate to cover the currency banknote issue/
This would be regulated by the Scottish Government (Treasury), who could then allow those commercial banks not to have to cover their note issue 100%, but drop it to 75%, 50%, even 30%, hence generating more currency.
I quite like the idea.
@soutron – oh, thanks for the article, reading it now. Even from the first bit I agree, deficits are not a problem on their own – except I’d say it would be in the case of EU membership. Australia can do its own thing, and it should be noted both Australia and Canada avoided the worst of the bank 2008, and only got affected a few years into it dragging one.
The EU is reforming banking bit by bit, part of the reason Carney of the BoE is right that the UK has resources to handle the Brexit – that’s largely down to the EU reforms.
@soutron
Prof stephanie kelton would be a great addition to snp council of economic advisors. She advised Bernie sanders during his campaign for the Democrats.
Have a feeling that snp are a bit too mainstream for that. Either way sovereign floating currency is a must.
Age that Spain has set the perameters for obtaining EU admission.They have effectively ruled out many fudge methods that the Unionist parties up here would prefer. The only option will be independence.
Thank you Spain. In being obstructive you have indicated the way forward.
Nicola in Brussels the facts..
link to tinyurl.com
WOW – BBC Reporting Scotlandshire don’t even mention Nicola in Brussels
A humorous Irish take on President Michael D’s visit to Scotland courtesy of Gift Grub on Today FM.
link to tinyurl.com
Does anyone remember a time when the media just gave you the the facts rather than telling lies for their own agenda.
re Juncker’s statement that we have won the right to be heard – our MEP’s fantastic speech yesterday, combined with Nicola’s calm, statesman like approach has finally moved things in our favour as far as EU is concerned.
I was sceptical about remain, and indeed was not sufficiently motivated to register to vote, until the horror of the brexit result. Today with Juncker’s announcement, I feel choked with pride at our wonderful SNP politicians and what they have achieved. Suddenly the Dream seems possible.
It reminds me of when we covered the sayings of the Brahn Seer in our gaidhlig classes at school in the early seventies, one of which was that Scotland would be free when two women ruled the land. Some wondered when Thatcher came to power, if the saying might be fulfilled, but of course Thatcher ‘ruled’ the UK. Now, auld Lizzie, don’t go popping yer clogs till the prophecy is fulfilled! And hang in there Nicola!
Incidentally, a couple years ago I tried to google the prophecy to see the exact translation, but it was the only saying which I couldn’t find at all. Funny that!
Re Corbyn, I hope he remains steadfast until after Chilcot is finally released, and that he calls for Bliar’s head on a plate
@scottieDog
I think a lot of us thought that anyway during Indy Ref 1, and the STUC thought the same. But the idea of the currency union – both formal and informal (sterlingisation) was to ease the transition, and then probably the plan would be to have our own currency pegged at first to the rUK £.
But Brexit and a likely fluctuating rUK£ (PBP – Part of British Pound), drastically changes the whole thing. Would Scotland want to be eddied around like a piece of driftwood in a tidal race by the likes of Boris & Co? I don’t think so.
I have just been watching a confrontation by our UKIP MEP Coburn with David McAllister the German MEP with Scottish heritage. McAllister came across as an elegant cultured educated man willing to listen to Scotlands’ views.
Coburn came across as a scruffy overbearing boor who harangued McAllister for even thinking Scotland should be even considered as it was a UK vote.
How on earth did enough people vote for someone like that to be our representative.
Perhaps democracy has its faults after all.
Credit where credit’s due – Kezia got something right: she said that, if Jeremy Corbyn became leader of the labour party, labour would be left carping from the sidelines for a long time to come. We didn’t have to wait too long for the fulfilment of that prediction.
I saw something about a tweet where Murdo Fraser called Juncker (or possibly Schulz) “a busker”. I take it Murdo is peeling off from the Tories and joining Farage.
@Bob Mack
Indeed. I think Spain will handle an Independent Scotland but have nothing to do with Scotland in the UK. And France who said the same as Spain, it is in the Treaty, so both are completely correct.
@One_Scot
I blame it on all-day breakfast TV. It’s the half-baked beans.
posted this on previous thread by mistake. It doesnt appear in the international edition.
link to spiegel.de
Enda Kenny thanked by Nicola for speaking on Scotland’s behalf.
The taoiseach was in Brussels for the meeting by heads of state. Ireland is on side.
Caught Sarah Smith crapping all over Scotland in Brussels BBC style, C4 news did much the same with that horrendous goon Coburn and his display of no way is Scotland going anywhere with out teamGB. C4 news then monster Corbyn. So all in all another display of tory domination of UKOK Britnat media. Its not pretty. Coburn looks like a big turd with eyes.
Happy to admit that trigonometry and internal Labour Party politics both escape my comprehension.
Why are we discussing the Labour Party?
Yesterday, the Scottish Parliament took back control of european affairs from Westminster without devolution. This was a major step.
Today, our First Minister was in Brussels having sounding meetings with a range of EU politicians.
Surely these events are more important topics than a political party in London that has a small group of MSPs here?
Can anyone tell me what England & Wales will trade with all these new markets?
Glamaig, unless I’m missing something – and with the current rustiness of my German, I might be – that seems like a really positive article. Many of the comments below appear to be in much the same vein – the second especially.
@mike cassidy says:3:55 pm
I would like to give advance warning that after my 65th birthday next year –
I will be voting ‘no’ in any indyref
Mike you will be happy to know it doesn’t work! Nothing changed when I turned 65. Still cantankerous, still passionately YES. I’ve been over 65 for 3 years now and still no change. I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s nothing to do with age. If you are a young prick you turn into an old prick. Converting someone who has been a prick all of their lives is almost impossible.
@fionan – Another intepretation could be that Theresa May might be a good bet for being the next PM?
RE: EU entry and Spains concerns. Is the answer not to say that Scotland takes over the UK membership? That neutralises any concerns form Spain or Belgium as they are unlikely to Spexit or Begxit. If so means as soon as Article 50 is declared there has to be an Indyref to allow simultaneous end dates?
scottieDog and Indyref2: only a straw in the wind but I was in the bank to clear up some business today. I made some initial rueful remarks about regretting not buying more Euros last week before my holiday because I didn’t think a Brexit was possible.
Wow! This set off a torrent of opinion from the employee (no names, etc.) who was an economics graduate and had lost a pile of money since the pound tanked, so much so that his house purchase was now off the table.
His conclusions:
1. We have to go for independence this time.
2. No point in sharing the pound now and being at the mercy of Westminster.
3. Scotland needs a central bank issuing its own currency, backed by its phenomenal assets.
I admit to having been very surprised, but even an old Tory got it right when it came to game-changers.
“Events, dear boy, events..”
@Glamaig
“Article 29
The Council shall adopt decisions which shall define the approach of the Union to a particular matter of a geographical or thematic nature. Member States shall ensure that their national policies conform to the Union’s positions”
WTF?
I am not interested in Labour. It would perhaps have been different if they had chosen a slow news week for their shenanigans but then again maybe not!
Scotland’s kitten trying to escape to the EU, for the balance with tory led BBC msm.
link to youtube.com
Does this mean England don’t get to play football in Europe any more?
Would that mean the BBC would have tons of millions of extra quids to spend on actual programming?
Would this mean listening to Gary Lineker less?
Does this mean we could watch Icelandic football because it’s better
Could Scotland buy Iceland and bring it over here I really like those folk (Clap Huh) sgreat that innit
What do you work at Mr Icelandic man? Oh I’m a dentist! and manager of the National football team
Brilliant!
“Coburn looks like a big turd with eyes”.
Hehehehe!
Heed: you can get an emoji for that.
Not that anyone would want to use it, of course.
@misteralz 7:30
It’s quite informative. German comments on Brexit articles seem 100% positive to Scotland and scathing about the Little Englanders. I hope that applies to their politicians too.
I ran it through google translate below. Google translate is not as good as I thought so if there is anything you want clarifierd let me know.
Theoretically, there are two ways in which Scotland could escape the Proposed referendum on United Kingdom membership of the European Union. The backgrounds in the overview.
How could Scotland remain in the EU?
It’s a complicated question, experts assess different. First of all, Scotland is part of the United Kingdom and is thus approximately a status as a German State. When independence referendum in 2014, around 55 per cent of Scots had voted for the whereabouts in the UK .
Sturgeon could invoke the Scotland Act 1998, which sets out the powers of the Scottish Parliament. There indeed is that Foreign Affairs are actually governed from London. But according to Article 29, it is reserved Edinburgh to implement EU legislation. If this passage is not changed, Scotland could continue to take EU law, even if the whole of the UK is no longer part of the Union and adopted different laws.
Scotland could keep a small “light” -EU membership and be geared more to Brussels than to London. The direct impact, however, would be significant: That about freedom of travel by EU citizens then within the United Kingdom – between Scotland and England – ending, seems hardly feasible. Dispute would programmed.
How could this occur in practice?
Such a thing has never happened before, so say all the experts, it is moving on shaky ground. It’s political convention, that it must have the consent of the Scottish Parliament to change the Scotland Act. But ultimately, the British government could overrule Edinburgh. Parliament in Westminster, where the governing conservatives won a majority, is the supreme legislative power and has a right of final decision held.
But such a decision would not be a formality, but a massive intervention in the sovereignty of the Scottish Parliament. The Scottish newspaper ‘The Herald’ is also borne in mind that the vast majority of MPs in Westminster itself for an EU whereabouts. The referendum was also for Parliament anyway not binding but is only a recommendation.
To prevent the Scots seek another independence referendum, according to the newspaper London could refrain from Scotland require the withdrawal from the EU. John Curtice, a political scientist at the University of Strathclyde, which holds theoretically possible, but also highly unrealistic.
And if all that does not work?
The second option would be another referendum on independence . As an independent state Scotland could be a new member of the EU. Theoretically the Parliament in London actually agree a Scottish referendum. Before the first Scottish referendum Premier Cameron had this power of decision in the so-called “referendum Agreement” transferred however to the Scottish Parliament. As this decision would turn in another Scottish-up, is open.
In the Scottish Parliament Sturgeon currently lacks two seats for an absolute majority. However, it is likely that supporters would find in the other groups.
How does it go from here?
Robert Ford, a political scientist from the University of Manchester, says the Scottish Government will try to instigate so much trouble as possible with the Conservatives in Westminster. “Because then the consent for independence among Scots will continue to rise.”
A new survey, already nearly 60 percent are in favor of the separation of the UK.
SPLITTERS!
link to tinyurl.com
Google translate of Speigel article.
WGD in ankle biting form.
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
I must be some kind of UNF nut because I’m getting cross-threaded. Time for tea!
Google translate doesn’t include comments on webpage translation you have to do them separately.
Here’s translation of page 1 of 36 from Speigel article.
First posts is about football
Vote winner yes/no?
, No State
Rubyconacer yesterday, 20:33
Scotland can not be like a German federal state, then Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England should not be allowed individually to participate in football EMs / WM. Scotland must therefore be legally own land !!! It […]
?
. 2
amerlogk yesterday, 20:33
The SNP are among the good in Europe. I wish the Scots that they can stay. Because they really tick quite different from the English.
3. Tusk
ediart yesterday, 20:35
but early discussions with Nicola Sturgeon refused. By this one can already recognize how to try individual states in this case Poland to position. To explore what advantage you from such a […]
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4. The 29ste star also the EU flag?
joerg alexander yesterday, 20:41
“There will be neither formal nor informal discussions with the UK, as long as the country has not made an application for discharge pursuant to Article 50 of the EU Treaty,” said Angela Merkel. At the same time already […]
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5. the yellow stars on a blue background
neinsoetwas yesterday, 20:42
have deeply divided all companies. Since MUST but something else happen to fragment as GB. Otherwise follow the Basques, the Catalans, the South Tyrol, the Bayern and everything is reversed. Where is the reason, […]
Sorry I can’t do the other 35 pages
Glamaig says:
Well done translating Google translate.
It can be a bit hard to read the translation but certainly easier than reading German.
What does ‘cross-threaded’ mean?
Perhaps I should have been clearer at the end of the last post.
Sorry I cant do the other 35 pages at the moment as I really have to get off the internet for at least an hour.
Perhaps someone else can do a translation of some of the others.
As a pensioner who actively canvassed for Indy I am passionate about Independence. Sorry but what we need is action not words at a time like this. To force the issue a mass peaceful demonstration is called for preferably in the Capital to show our support for Indy2, EU remain and the SNP government in their attempts to further our cause.
If anyone wants the key points and clips of this day.
link to twitter.com
is your man.
K1, it’s when you don’t get a nut or bolt done up properly through hamfistedness and end up ruining the thread of one, the other, or both.
@ Robert Peffers Only fishing boats registered in Catalonia & crewed by Catalonians would be able to fish in Scotlands waters,noo that would get rite up Rajoys beek.
As to the currency question, I just can’t see a currency union being a viable option any longer. Like others, I believe iScotland should have its own money, but to ease the transition, it could be locked to the pound for a very short time (a year, say) set in advance, then allowed to float. The pound has recovered a little today as the markets realise that Brexit isn’t imminent, but once reality begins to grip, it could very easily start to slide again. So even that initial tracking might not be so attractive when the time comes.
Let’s nail the lie once and for all, being in the EU does not require us to commit to the euro. However, besides Scottish currency (which I think should revert to the old name “merk” – that might amuse the Germans!), I believe we should also make the euro legal tender. Not as the national currency, but as a secondary one. Then continental visitors & customers would find it even more attractive to spend/trade with us, and we would be able to hold euro current accounts if we so wished, with all the benefits of free money transfers, etc.
But that’s all for later. The main thing is for the indy movement to settle upon a rock-solid solution that will withstand scrutiny in a referendum. I can see financial institutions also being far more inclined to accept the possibility now. Just one of the many payoffs of Brexit.
@scottydog yeah she’d be a brilliant addition but you’re probably right on the SNP front. I’d love it if they surprised us though. Maybe the greens could get involved with a slightly less conventional economic take.
Thanks misteralz, that’s cleared that up then 😉
Carlsberg don’t do Westminster farces, but if they did, they’d probably look like this! I suppose Brian Rix isn’t around now, or he’d be the obvious next lab/tory leader.
I wonder if Madge is still purring?
Looking down lab and tory lists of candidates, I think it really comes down to Eddie Izzard and Ken Dodd.
I now look at Indyref 1 as Indyref part 1. During the intermission we looked at the scare stories and watched them collapse one by one. now’s the time to make the real decision.
I’m continually impressed by NS, but the WM and Holyrood teams are extremely competent.
Well, Iceland wouldn’t beat them!
Last night the Yoonery were all set to run with “Sturgeon Snubbed” as their headlines (in fact some did) Schulz, Juncker and the EU Parliament painfully spiked that story so they have to run with plan B – Rajoy insanely declaring that everybody is against Scotland remaining in the EU despite coming from a Ministers Council meeting where RofI actually spoke on behalf of Scotland.
France’s position of no advance agreement before the UK article 50 Brexit is a bit more logical. France is not saying Non just that there is a logical order to follow. Indeed, a Scotland position before they know what the UK one is doesn’t make a lot of sense.
Of course the warmth of the welcome for Nicola just makes the Yoons annoyed….and the Brexiteers’ heads explode 🙂
@misteralz
Yes, and when you’re reading two threads 3 articles and post all over the place getting totally discombobulated. Or something painful anyway. Where am I?
Robert J Sutherland –
I considered suggest pegging a Scottish current but i thought more appropriate would be the US dollar like Dubai or Japan.
I think the dollar would translate better in people’s thinking on a uk level but also with oil being a major player in Scotland’s future it works better in buying and selling in the markets as we wouldn’t have to buy dollars to trade oil.
Re Rajoy – Spain
It’s a nonsensical argument ‘to discourage Catalonia’. Catalonia has not voted for a Referendum on Independence by a majority.
Catalonia and the rest of Spain want to stay in the EU. Scotland wants to stay in the EU.
England/Wales have voted to leave the EU. Not Scotland.
Rajoy has turned the argument in it’s head. How will England/Wales voting to leave the EU encourage Catalonia’s Independence Movement. Both Catalonia and the rest of Spain want to stay in the EU, so does Scotland. Scotland are on the side of staying in the EU not leaving it.
It is not the Spanish Gov who want to leave the EU and Catalonia who wants to stay in the EU. It is the English/Wales (Gov) majority who have voted and want to leave the EU.
Is anybody really surprised that the BBC thinks the most important thing to report from Nicola’s visit to the EU is “the interim Spanish leader will object blah blah”. If Scotland sent a manned mission to the moon the BBC would report that the SNP had polluted space.
Nicola Sturgeon went to the EU, with the backing of Scottish labour, lib dems and the greens, to explore the possibility of staying in Europe without being independent. The Ruth Davidson party tried to amend the brexit debate to remove the reference to indyref2, she lost and the Cons abstained on the original motion.
Nicola has gone to the EU and tried. It sounds like the message coming back is we cannot stay in the EU unless we are independent. What’s not to like? It’s now up to Kezia and Willie to decide if they really want to stay in the EU. As they say in Iceland “time to fish or cut bait”.
excellent and really funny post EWEN @ 7.18 thanks laughed out loud brilliant
It’s f*cking ridiculous this: Labour M.Ps have been plotting (not so secretly) against Corbyn since day 1 and what has occurred this week is utterly transparent as a cack handed attempt at a coup at a moment when they thought the leader of the Labour party was at his weakest.
Now that it’s dawned on them that Corbyn isn’t going to go quietly they’ve resorted to the emotional blackmail of demanding Corbyn go because his remaining in the face of this coup will destroy the Labour party! They have destroyed the Labour party and they must face the consequences.
And people wonder why we Scots dumped Labour.
If the EU isn’t prepared to safeguard the EU rights and citizenship of Scotlands people,wouldn’t that be an admission that it sees no future purpose for itself?
Hi K1.
When I clicked on your “brightcove” link, I got a dialogue box, inviting me to download a file called “master.m3u8”. I cancelled, as when I click on a link to a video, I want to see the video appearing. I don’t want to download any sort of strange file, so I can see the concerns of others.
————————————————-
While I’m posting…
Going by the increase in racist incidents ‘dan sarf’ (and some in Scotland) since Thursday, I would guess that a fair proportion of the British knuckle-dragging community were taken in by the implications promulgated by the Leave campaign, UKIP in particular.
They thought they were voting Leave to return Britain to a land populated by only white people, whose ancestors had been born here, hence the verbal attacks on “furriners” of every hue and accent to “go home”.
A rather nasty Pandora’s Box was opened up by Leave. They probably don’t even accept or realise what they did.
I’ve got a problem I can’t pull myself away from the internet. My whole time management schedule has gone out the window since Brexit.
link to tinyurl.com
Here’s link which shows the comments from the Speigel article a you can scroll through the pages by clicking on the page numbers.
I always find comments more interesting than the articles.
Bloody hell old Kez cant write for toffee. All of this ramble down to SNP bad, uncertainty, vile seps, unbreakable bettertogether ties. Fair enough Kez’s ducks away from the crucifixion of JC but she is Lab in Scotland leader and what a bore
link to archive.is
Incidentally, if you only look at the top part of that photo of Tom Watson it looks exactly like he’s standing in front of the Titanic.
One_Scot says: at 7:03 pm
“Does anyone remember a time when the media just gave you the the facts rather than telling lies for their own agenda.”
It never existed. All is spin, and the victors write the history.
Yesindyref2 @ 7.44 pm: Won’t be ab;e to get to sleep tonight unless you remind me what UNF stands for! I SWEAR I used to know…
The SNP, Alex Salmond etc always said at the last Indy Ref 2014, ‘that Scotland would use the £ at first (it had to), then it was for the Scottish electorate to decide.’ That always said there were other options.
The experts consulted had said, ‘it was obvious better to use the £ at first, but then there were other options to decide’. They set out the options. Not just a shared currency, if that was not agreed. Own currency. Euro in future etc. It doesn’t matter what currency. What matters is balancing the books. Scotland does and always has been overall in surplus. The books, financial accounts are there to prove it.
Alistair Darling said Scotland could, ‘use the £, with or without permission’. Most politicians agreed Scotland could be a successful, Independent country. Despite some lying about nearly everything else.
@defo
Its not the media who changed.
We did. 😉
There are (joke?) rumours, that Dugdale has offered to be Scottish Sec for Jeremy Corbyn. Must be untrue. Surely she knows it has to be someone elected to Commons or appointed to HoL. Maybe looking for knighthood?
@wee jock poo-pong mcplop
Can’t have that.
Unified Fine I think. And then there’s Unified Coarse. If I rememebr rightly you could always put a UNC nut on a UNF bolt to get you home, but then they brought in they metric things. That really threw a spanner in the works.
@wee jock poo-pong mcplop says:8:39 pm
Won’t be ab;e to get to sleep tonight unless you remind me what UNF stands for! I SWEAR I used to know…
Unified National Fine, just like the SNP 🙂
Hey, let’s join up with Iceland.
link to archive.is
Worth it just for the ‘reading’ remark.
yesindyref2 @ 17:29,
I have a feeling that is an issue that will resolve itself, especially in the turmoil that Brexit is going to continue to cause. As people begin to better appreciate what the real negative effects of exit on them personally are likely to be, much of the longstanding pernicious anti-EU tabloid propaganda will be exposed as being false.
As you yourself posted in response to Kevin about 4 mins. earlier, Remain is also a big pull for former No voters. Especially, I would add, the more fiscally-conservative ones.
There are indeed isolationists in the Yes camp, but I can’t see that they are so antagonistic to the EU that they would abandon indy for the sake of it. Besides the Tories, the main opponents of the EU are the radical right, who will never vote indy, and increasingly the radical left it would seem, who have such small support (less than the Scot Christians at the last election, FGS!) that they are effectively irrelevant. I note the presence of Tsipras among the rest of the 27 EU leaders meeting today – even the Greeks aren’t wanting to leave.
wee jock poo-pong mcplop,
Unified National Fine. UNC was coarse. I don’t think there was ever consensus on when fine became coarse…
Re: Coburn.
Every time I see him on that televisual apparatus, I am reminded of this chappie…
link to tonyb.myownsite.me
Front page of the FT
link to twitter.com
Did anyone else notice that in the Christian Allard interview on French TV, SNP translated into PIE?
(Parti Independantista Ecosse.)
Currency options.
link to fullfact.org
Would those far better versed in economics than me say this was a good primer on the issue?
When Sr Rajoy used the word competence in reference to the SNP position he didn’t mean they were incompetent this is another deliberate misuse of the translation by the media, or stupidity take your pick
What he meant translated roughly within the context was basically “Authority” because it is a UK competency, see the difference there
You gotta watch that naughty media with their “Lost in Translation stuff” or misuse of
All Spain is doing is setting out a negotiation position.
They do not preclude our independence.
If (when?) A50 is triggered everything changes.
Let’s just build the momentum gradually.
More talking, more diplomacy, more publicity, more alliances.
Let people see how it’s all a big game about guarding each nation’s interests & most importantly – only independent states get taken seriously.
And given today’s JP Morgan announcement, I expect Nicola’s experts will be working on a pegged currency too, probably were already in my view.
We are just kicking off in this rematch.
Indyref2 hasn’t officially begun but its already at the gallop, and bouncing off momentous global events like a ball bearing in a pin ball machine. We have hurtled through so many of the insurmountable barriers of Indyref1 as though they didn’t exist, and with innumerable No voters now declaring for Yes.
much to agree with breeks.
i think for our part, we need to launch yes2 and encourage more nos 2 vote yes. a bit too tight at the moment. until we reach this point, we only have the option of watching events unfold.
sad really, the situation in the uk at the moment, with the entire finacial services of london looking to relocate, londons loss really could be edinburghs gain
You go out for an hour and well…it keeps on coming.
Thousands turn out for pro-EU demonstration in Edinburgh
link to archive.is
Members of Ian Murray’s local party attack his resignation
link to archive.is
Yes Brian I did.
My take is that the French understand us and are not lumping SNP with Marine LePen or Adolph Hitler,
Well done
@Brian Doonthetoon
I like PIE 🙂
Brian Doonthetoon,
Thanks for the big laugh. I see what you mean!
Myself, when I saw him hanging about in the background on the C4 news, I though of nothing so much as a dog lurking impatiently for a wee pat on the heid or a scrap to eat.
I was going to add how just irrelevant the buffoon is, but actually, he and Farage are doing a brilliant job – for indy. Each time they speak in the EU parliament, as Farage did the other day so gloatingly, the more they convince practically everyone else there how wonderful Scotland is in comparison.
And did you notice how relieved the EU leaders were at their meeting today to no longer need to endure WhingerCam?!
Hi Robert Kerr.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
suggested theme tune for New Labour.
the O’Jays “The Back Stabbers”
@BDTT
Mmmmmmm PIE! 🙂
What’s not to like?
Corbyn holding on and the Eagle has planned it… tomorrow for her challenge.
I forget how many votes she got the last time in 2015…oh wait she was in for the deputy leader and was eliminated.
link to labour.org.uk
They’re tried to keep Corbyn off the ballot saying he needs 50 nominations from current labour MPs? Aye right!
It is tragic how desperate our state media and their friends in the press are to have Nicola fail in her mission to save Scotland from the UKIP wilderness that awaits.
I read the BBC report on Spain’s position and if I were not a moderate, humanitarian I would want them (the BBC that is) wiped from the face of this fucking earth. You can almost hear their masturbatory gasps as they get off on any difficulty.
The tories refusal to get behind her yesterday was also unforgivable. And as for Rajoy- PRICK- he seems to be overextending himself somewhat.
If anyone thinks each individual member of the EU has the same power, especially Spain they are dreaming. If Angela Merkel wants us in we will get in and if not then not.
It may seem like Scotland is doing all the running and the EU holds all the cards. I think that is to misundestand the predicament the EU are in. If I was Marine Le Penne I would be praying Scotland is blackballed so she can raise us up as an example of how little the EU gives a shit. She will toast any refusal to accommodate Scotland just as she toasted Brexit.
We are a small country but we have a great contribution to offer. That some in the EU do not understand that speaks more of their ignorance than our inadequacy.
I will wait and see how the chips fall and I am well aware of how diplomacy dictates your initial position is not necessarily your final position. There is not a person on this planet I would rather have working on our behalf than our First Minister.
The media don’t know her like we do- they simply hate. The rest of Europe have not been BBC’d into thinking Nicola is “crafty” or “cunning”- they will take her as they find her and she is undeniably impressive.
318 years ago the Spanish and English fucked up our economic future in Darien… Plus ca change, plus ca reste le meme.
After the courting is over it will be clear what our position is. If the EU indicate we can remain in the EU if we vote independent then we go and win it as fast as possible.
If they don’t we need to explore other options.
Simultaneous UDI’s and formal trading alliance with our friends in Catalunya would be my preference.
heedtracker,
“Scotland has no competences to negotiate with the EU. The Spanish government rejects any negotiation with anyone other than the United Kingdom”, said Mr Rajoy, currently acting prime minister of the country.”
(The b—–d) Rajoy is 100% correct.
No EU country or official was willing to listen to or talk to Scotland prior to the 2014 independence referendum.
The EU wouldn’t even release their legal advice on the Scottish question unless the UK asked for it, thus allowing the Better Together scaremongering.
Now, they are only listening to Nicola as a matter of courtesy following the Remain vote in Scotland.
Not a single EU official has any power to have any formal discussion with Scotland about EU membership.
If we want to be part of the EU, there is absolutely no other way then getting completely out of the UK first.
Despite Robert Peffers’ repeated pish, as far as international bodies are concerned, politically Scotland is nothing more than a region of the UK state, the official member of the EU.
@Tam Jardine
One of the purposes of the UK state media twisting the Rajoy story is to piss off Nats so we criticise Rajoy and Spain, and piss them off.
They’re giving us sucker bait.
The tories made a giant mistake holding an EU ref. Its not up there with Iraq war if only because there’s no actual war ahead. But it is more than likely the UK is going to be Boris Island in 6 to 8 weeks time and there’s not much his scotland region can do about it. Farage will get a government job and the tory BBC are going to make sure England loves them, as Labour drop dead in front us.
The best we’ll get out of the EU is probably a non binding assurance that independent Scotland could maybe become an EU member. It’ll take some of the teeth out of the oncoming Project Fear 2.0 terrorising BBC style but not that much.
wee jock poo-pong mcplop says:
29 June, 2016 at 8:39 pm
Yesindyref2 @ 7.44 pm: Won’t be ab;e to get to sleep tonight unless you remind me what UNF stands for! I SWEAR I used to know…
Unified fine
I think
Graeme
Evening everyone! Some might have remembered my previous post saying that we have to play the long game and wait but things moving this rapidly have forced our hands here.
In terms of Scotland’s position though we still have to let the whomever takes the new PM post up and then be ready to press the button.
I was on the SNP’s FB page earlier which is being attacked by Yoon’s who are trying desperately trying to bring the financial arguments back into it if we are to hold a second referendum on Independence. It’s latest spin is how much we business Scotland does with the rest of the UK in comparison to the EU whilst totally missing the point of attracting several hundreds of other businesses who only have to drive up the road to continue THEIR business with the EU to both increase the economy of Scotland AND build further relationships with the rest of our European partners. This is one lie from them I won’t allow the Yoons to sell any longer.
It also appears that with articles like the following I’m not alone.
link to cityam.com
Nah the French are doing the right thing their problem isnt with the EU there are still lots of bampot English in their country greeting their faces off,they are holding the EU championships at the moment.
Lets ask them again in a week or so lol
Funny how Cameron has managed to absolve himself of blame. true, the Brexiteers had no pans for what happens next, hardly a big surprise, we’re talking Boris here.
But what is utterly unforgivable is the fact that Cameron – the PRIME MINISTER – had no contingency plans for an Out vote, no plan B.
But what happens now?
link to democraticaudit.com
On RT going underground, some Tory Mp says basically SNP irrevelant and their support is going down!
Obviously The Clunking Fists delusional virus is spreading.
@Rock
“Despite Robert Peffers’ repeated pish”
You really are a laugh a minute, despite your repeated pish.
link to archive.is
The Guardian says something not awful about Scotland and my Slovene girlfriend’s getting even angrier with me, and you.
Its not very statesman like but does anyone really think Prof T is a statesman, other than Prof T himself.
In response to FelisLunartik
It is extremely ugly.
ATL: After the referendum we must try to avoid a drift towards narrow nativism. Perhaps we could learn from the civic nationalism that Scotland has forged
Scottish ‘civic’ nationalism is as ‘civic’ as UKIP nationalism.
The SNP’s Scottish referendum campaign was the same as the Brexiter campaign – based on shameless manipulative lies and dangerous divisive ‘us and them’ demagoguery. And both are based on uncritically adored great populist leaders. Alwaays blaming those horrible ‘others’ for everything.
Among other things, the SNP also repeatedly told the people of Scotland LIES about Scotland’s EU membership. Exactly like Brexiters.
Anyway, they way things stand:
Brexit is great news for the rest of the EU
See also:
What do Germans think about Brexit? They pity us
Interesting to also read the comments under both articles.
Bye bye. Have a nice life on your isolated island. The rest of us have already moved on – without you.”
If only Adam, if only:D
oh dear oh dear getting pretty rough out there the recurring theme appears to be .
just do as yer feckin told respect the result , my usual reply is ok we will respect your result as soon as you start respecting ours-we are still waiting on the bloody first part two years later .
Channel 4 mentioned earlier that an email sent to Michael Gove from his wife Sarah Vine has been leaked (received inadvertently by a member of the public). In it she mentions Paul Dacre and Rupert Murdoch. I’m on my IPad so can’t post links. If thought to be interesting maybe someone else could fo so.
Gone quiet for 5 mins.
@fionan
“Scotland would be free when two women ruled the land”.
My auntie (not that shortbread one) used to say what you said when I was a pre-teen (don’t laugh) but I never knew what it meant. Still don’t. Hint!
I just caught your post and it reminded me.
Anyhoo! Off the cuff.
How about Sturgeon and Theresa May it could all be true… 🙂
Boris is too divisive a figure and she has a good chance also she is a remainer.
Oops!
@laukat I see you beat me to it. 🙂
———————————————————–
PS:I used to have to use these among others at work a long time ago in a distant galaxy…
UNF : Unified Thread Fine
UNC : Coarse
UNEF: Extra Fine
Just watched a clip of Tom Watson saying that he agreed with Kezia Dugdale who said, just yesterday, that if she’d lost a motion of no confidence with 80 percent of her MPs, she wouldn’t be able to do her job.
Well, get this Kezia: More than 80 percent of Scotland’s voters have no confidence in you. And you, and the likes of James Kelly and Johann Lamont, only have the jobs you have because you managed to slip in through the back door, having been decidedly rejected at constituency level.
Daein’ yer job, eh? Daein’ yer job? Don’t you talk tae me aboot daein’ yer job.
Just watching the paused BBC Scotland news. Glenn Campbell OK, finally know who this Kaye Adams you’re all on about, is. Fair I thought. I liked Eardley from the HoC laughing along with the SNP challenge, rather than mocking it. But then they show the pro-EU demo at Holyrood with about 200 people there if that. The Herald has it at thousands, and shows the pic of them.
Seen someone now trying to say “around 40%” about the Leave vote. It soon went up to 40% from 38%, now it’s “around” 40%, then it will be less than half, next it will be nearly 50%. Don’t be conned. It was 38% Leave. Not 40, not nearly 50, fing 38%.
Same for the deficit, it was £15 billion, now they’re claiming it’s £18 billion. Well, it ain’t, and Scotlan can’t have a deficit until we’re Independent.
FT foreign editor chap/chapess says EU Ref 2
Britain has voted to leave the EU. But our chief foreign affairs commentator says the UK might be heading towards a second referendum rather than the door marked exit.
Watched Nicola’s visit to Brussels being reported on France24 English service on satellite.
Well, couldn’t have been the same visit the EBC reported on!
Nicola had a most successful day. I kid you not, France24 reported that “she was treated like a queen” and “every door was open to her”.
If that was anything to go by, Scotland’s will do just fine with the EU.
A clear statement, such as made by Rajoy, blocking Scotland’s joining the EU, is precisely what Nicola wanted to hear. The FM needs to be able to say that her enquiries offered no possibility of joining the EU and that the only route to being part of the EU is through Independence.
The Scottish parliament will now debate joining the EU with Independence as the only access. The choice for Scotland will then be a) prosperity in the EU as an independent country, or, b) endless, deepening poverty as part of a failing UK.
I have only one question…………..
Are we Independent yet?
The rest is just waffle……..
@mike Cassidy
The overwhelming case for currency has to be a new sovereign currency for Scotland. The ‘broad’ shoulders of the UK being echoed yet undefined two years ago really just amounts to it having a central bank – the Bank of England.
A country with its own currency cannot default on debts in its own currency. That’s not me saying that, it is a string of central bankers.
People in England were lead to believe that ‘they’ as our lender of last resort would be bailing us out in future banking crises. ‘They’ wouldn’t be bailing anyone out. The BoE would simply be using a computer to mark up bank balance sheets – a costless exercise.
Professor Gallagher (staunch unionist) mentions the size of our banking sector. Well that is about to get a lot smaller once the UK banks lose their passporting privileges in the EU.
Anyway in an Indy Scotland a dominating banking sector wouldn’t be tolerated as far as I can see.
A bit worrying that prof John Kay thinks sterlingisation is a good idea. The SNP needs a new set of economists. Perhaps the very ones predicting the financial crisis long before it happened. Now they would be good.
Here’s one of em..
link to bilbo.economicoutlook.net
mealer says:
If the EU isn’t prepared to safeguard the EU rights and citizenship of Scotlands people,wouldn’t that be an admission that it sees no future purpose for itself?
Indeed, Mealer. It would in effect be signing it’s own death warrant, something it’s trying desperately to avoid at the moment with the current instability across the Union now made a whole lot worse by Brexit. I’m sure we are pushing at an open door but it’s clear we also need to hold and win Indyref2 in order to blow away any potential opposition from the likes of Spain.
As ever, timing is all, and of course most of us would like to have it sorted by next week, but I am convinced Nicola and her team know exactly what they are doing this time; and so far they are playing a blinder. I just hope they can last the pace, coz I’m suffering sleep deprivation already and we’re only 6 days into this battle!
@Petra
Here you go
link to archive.is
Brilliantly put, Macca73 @21:41.
The whole basis of the new emerging economic reality totally blows the yoon case out of the water. No wonder they are having kittens! I think the SG would be wise to be having informal talks with financial institutions right now. It’s the exact inverse of 2014: brass plates considering moving to Scotland.
Rock, once again you are being overly pessimistic. Of course the EU can’t formally agree anything with Scotland, but they are giving unmistakeable signals in their own diplomatic way that the door is very much open. As the reporter on France24 said earlier today, while EU Parliament President Schultz often receives visitors from various parts of the EU, it is very unusual for Commission President Juncker to do so. And not least on a day such as today.
..when two women rule the land…
That would already have been-
– Maggie & Queen Liz, back in the day..
Maybe the spark.
Will the folk who are trusting the media’s english translation of what Sr Rajoy said stop it
You don’t trust them on anything else why the F..k are you believing them on that
I speak Spanish and I can assure you what the media says he said and what he actually said are two entirely different Fucking things
I’ve already posted the translated meaning Jeez!
Prime Minister David Cameron has told Jeremy Corbyn to resign as Labour leader, claiming it is not in the national interest for him to continue.
link to bbc.co.uk
Corbyn is an outsider, he is not part of the establishment, he is a thorn in the elites side. That is why he must be tossed aside as it “is not in the national interest”. That would be Tory Camerons interest.
I hope he stays and is reelected by Labour members in defiance of the PLP. I also hope all the plotters are deselected and then they fuck off to form their own party.
You may think this has little to do with an Independent Scotland but in my view it does, we need the last remaining Labour voters to come over to Independence in order to win. The demonising of Jeremy Corbyn by his own MP’s might just help that happen.
Good luck to Mr Corbyn and don’t quit until you destroy the Blair legacy, tell Cameron too that is is him that is on the way out and good riddance.
Ooft!
link to poundsterlinglive.com
When Cameron advised Corbyn to resign today in the House of Commons, as he turned to sit down he had the look of a man who knew he wasn’t in a position to tell anyone to resign.
Just heard McTernan on radio 4 savaging Corbyn and bigging up the Eagle. It’s not about winning an election it’s about saving the labour party from permanent extinction in the UK.
Well labour voters that’s you telt and your views don’t count as your betters have spoken. But vote anyway for the Eagle.
Yawn….
Taking into account Corbyn’s dismissive Blimp attitude to Scotland’s democracy, I suggest his fight for survival, and indeed that of the Labour party, is an English issue.
To be clear: an England only issue.
(Even the airhead Dugdale has twigged that one.)
The remote interest for me is whether over half his MPs, the neo-con disciples, want rid of him in case the Chilcot Report asserts Blair is a war criminal.
link to wp.me
PS: Rajoy did not state Spain would block a move by Scotland to join the EU. I should know – I’m in Spain.
Just imagine the leader of the next Better-Together UKOK mission trying to argue against Scottish Independence by warning us that we will not be allowed to use the pound. There will be huge cries of “HOORAY” and sighs of relief all round.
There’s no doubt that Blair and Campbell are behind this coup but if the back-stabbing numpties are committing political murder of a decent man to protect a scumbag like Tony Blair and the Labour Party they’ve got another think coming. The ordinary man in the (English) street won’t give a you know what about Blair as everybody knows already that he’s a war criminal however they won’t ever forgive them for what they’re doing to Corbyn. The party will no doubt split and one wonders what side the Unions will back?
A ‘split’ Labour Party will never have the ‘numbers’ to beat the Tories in any Election. Not in a million years. We’re basically living in a leaderless One Party Facist State for all time coming (leaderless until Bojo or May take over). The Better Together State we were promised by people like those in SLab if we voted No to Independence.
Let’s hope that Nicola’s team of experts get a move on to enable us to distance ourselves from the crooks and liars …. get out of this nightmare ASAP.
@yesindyref2 says: 29 June, 2016 at 9:32 pm:
“One of the purposes of the UK state media twisting the Rajoy story is to piss off Nats so we criticise Rajoy and Spain, and piss them off. They’re giving us sucker bait”
Well it’s not so much just that the UK Establishment propaganda wing choosing to push the Rajoy story. More that international diplomatic protocol doesn’t allow the EU members and official to do so.
Previously the EU were constrained in what they could say according to protocol. What with The United Kingdom being an official member state and thus protected by their fellow member states.
Whether they were sympathetic to Scottish claims or not the EU would not come out and say so as the UK was an official Member state.
Note that the claims made during indyref all came from the European Commissioners and, besides usually being misquoted, the commissioners always prefaced their comments with one or both of the following – “In my opinion”, or, “I’m not specifically speaking about Scotland here but …”.
Then the UK propaganda wing reported it as if it were the EU ruling ignoring the truth that European Commissioners have no decision making powers whatsoever.
Poor old Rock is a victim of brainwashing and would rather believe any bullshit that comes from the Establishment is stone cold truth when there isn’t a single bit of hard legal evidence to back it up.
Rock, and such as Rock, cannot show a single legal fact to back up their beliefs – other than some Britnat said it. The simple fact is, when all is said and done, The United Kingdom is exactly what it calls itself, “a Kingdom”. a.k.a. a Royal Realm.
Such wrong beliefs are common if perpetrated as propaganda. Here’s an example of a typical, non-political, popular belief that is utter bollox.
The Motion Picture by Alfred Hitchcock, “Vertigo”, for some unknown reason, has led the majority of the public to believe the term, “Vertigo”, means a Fear of Heights.
Thing is it doesn’t – it means a sensation of spinning or dizziness. The actual term for an excessive fear of heights is, “Acrophobia”. If you don’t believe me go and look at your dictionary.
Deliberately murdering the English language to mislead Joe public has always been a well known propaganda tool.
Even Wullie Shakespeare used it. “Friends, Romans and countrymen, I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him. The evil that men do lives after them, the good is oft interred with their bones.”.
Here Mark Anthony claims he does not come to praise Caesar but then proceeds to do just that – to praise Caesar.
Rajoy allegedly, If the UK leaves, Scotland leaves”.
Ah well Mr Rajoy, if that is true then take your fishing boats and get tae fuck!
In case anyone didn’t see Nicola today, or just didnt notice, the outfit she wore was perfectly co-ordinated with the EU flag. Such attention to detail is going to be needed in the months ahead. Gaun yersel’ Nicola.
Mr McAllister the (Scottish) Deputy to Merkel, had a stand up row with Coburn, ‘ that Scottish wishes would be heard and 62% of the voters in Scotland voted to remain in the EU’. Coburn, was going nuts.
Coburn got 200,000 votes out of a 4Million electorate.
Along with the other support – Brilliant. Things are moving in the right direction. .
“Scotland can fuck off!” said Farage to SNP MEP Alyn Smith at EU Parliament meeting on England’s retreat into xenophobia.
Grouse Beater says:
“Scotland can fuck off!” said Farage
That’s what it looked like to me. Has it been confirmed by a lip reader?
The “two women who rule the land” are, quite clearly:
— Wee Nicola and Big Angela
Or, more probably, as we approach indyref2:
— Wee Nicola and Crooked Hillary
UKIP Cockburn said on STV we voted in the IndRef that we all knew there would be areferendum on Europe. I do NOT recall that. Since UKIP and the Daily Mail are using this to attack our view of democracy can anyone confirm this?
When we have Westminster begrudgingly acknowledging that Brexit legitimises our second Independence referendum, the UN berating the UK’s human rights record and austerity measures hitting the vulnerable, and European states and officials broadly welcoming Scotland with open arms, doesn’t the “u” in UDI seem a little superfluous?
I worry about a referendum. Its all very well asking how anybody could make the case for staying with a drowning rUK, but being wholly incapable of articulating any progressive and positive case for the Union was no handicap for the dismal Better Together campaign and barely created a ripple in 2014, such was the domination of the media’s monopoly on broadcasting and vice-like grip on the agenda.
I know things are very different now, but the BBC is exactly the same and up to its scheming duplicity already.
With a UDI, especially one dictated by bureaucratic expediency and less about self interest, the deed is done, and the democratic credentials of the declaration can be ratified by a subsequent referendum which could be embellished to become a plebiscite for a new constitution.
@Jim “Ah well Mr Rajoy, if that is true then take your fishing boats and get tae fuck!”
Thanks Jim, there’s Sturgeon doing a charm offensive throughoutt the EU to smoothe our transition after the Indy Referendum, there’s Alun Smith getting a standing ovation in the European Parliament, there’s Angus Robertson talking in Austria, and you take the fucking bait from the BBC’s distorted view of what Senor Rajoy is saying, and tell the Spanish to fuck off, trying your pig-ignorant best to destroy all the work the SNP are doing.
Well, you fuck off, and all the arseholes who swallow the bait the BBC throw at them, and the media distort, but have no brains to see througb it.
‘…as when I click on a link to a video, I want to see the video appearing.’
I looked at the Daily Record I found a wee story about what the guy was doing behind Farage:
link to archive.is
I’ve just clicked on it from my original post and it plays the video. Nothing else happens for me this end, no downloading, no malware warnings, nothing. There is absolutely no way I would have posted a link to anyone and certainly not on a public site that had in any way caused any issues that I could see as problematic before sending or posting.
There is no problem my end with playing that video from the link I posted at 3.34pm.
I’ve just contacted one of my friends and they have played it from the link at 3.34pm on their iPad and have experienced no problems. it’s working fine, no downloading, no malware etc.
Could this be an issue for Windows based computers? I’m on a Mac/laptop, friend on iPad. I’ve also just gone on to Wings on my android phone, clicked on the link and it immediately plays the video. No warnings, no downloading nothing.
Appreciate the ‘concerns’ but not everyone is having the same issue with this link.
The Trades Unions, the money men, the hard men are moving in to sort the PLP. They support Colbyn. The Eagle will take flight. Soar like a bird.
Jim: “Rajoy allegedly, If the UK leaves, Scotland leaves”.
A deliberate UK media misrepresentation of Rajoy’s stance. He has not got the majority to say anything other than all matters are ‘on the table.’
@Jim
Aye and “Jim”, and I don’t mean Dr Jom, I mean “Jim”, go back to your fellow party member David Coburn in UKIP and tell him it didn’t work.
So Steven Crabb has put his name in , that’s a bit shellfish, trying to muscle his way to the leadership, he has a molluscule chance when you look at the competition.
I’ll get me Iceland top-son.
As for Nigel Meringue, mmm
I won’t waste my time referring to that waste of skin.
BNP in a cheap suit.
@Scottie Dog, 10.05
Regarding a new set of economic advisers for the Scottish Government, what about Professor Mark Blyth? Here he is in action link to youtube.com
Kenny: “The “two women who rule the land” are, quite clearly:
— Wee Nicola and Big Angela
Or, more probably, as we approach indyref2:
— Wee Nicola and Crooked Hillary”
By September, it’s likely to be Wee Nicola and the dependable, matriarchal alternative to Boris’s chaotic buffoonery – Theresa May 🙂
Same old same old rubbish from the yoons they really dont like the truth.
Suck it up yoons we didnt do this you did we warned you what we would do you did all read it,did you think we were kidding when we said we the yes movement the people of Scotland not a political party but an electorate have had enough we are the boss now,not you not the SG not the SNP not westminster or any stinking tory party.
Its indyref 2 madness hear them screech and pull out all the same old box of tricks folks.
EU bad ? lol SNP bad lmao man those yoons are stupid thank goodness the SNP got the message,is wee Wullie getting it are you getting it yet Mr Rennie,Kez what about you hmmm feeling a bit stupid now hmmmm?
Its never to late to save face we have put before you one last chance to redeem any kind of morals you have left,i suggest you take it,there will be no more chances after that.
Tories nah you are irrelevant to the debate,how about that William actually becomes relevant well smack me with a kipper miracles do happen i am astonished lol
Thanks for the reminders on UNF and UNC threads chaps…meanwhile, OH GAWWDDD! Newsnight interview Tam Dalyell! Unsurprisingly, he still splutters on about Westminster being far, far above the people in terms of political legitimacy. What the hell HAPPENS to his sort? When did any essence of actual democracy become an object of pure derision to them? Maybe a lifetime in The Binns insulates you from the smelly unwashed who actually go into polling booths with their stubby pencils.
You would have thought that after all this time that folk would realise that nearly everything that the Brit Nat Press and Media pumps out in relation to Scotland is a lie. You would have thought that they would have learned the lesson in the run up to our Indy Referendum in 2014.
It would appear not. The Scot baiting has started already indeed I don’t think it ever stopped after the Indy Referendum of 2014 but others seem to walk into the Brit Nat trap hook line and sinker, no fishing puns intended. I despair.
G says:
29 June, 2016 at 11:17 pm
Kenny: “The “two women who rule the land” are, quite clearly:
— Wee Nicola and Big Angela
Or, more probably, as we approach indyref2:
— Wee Nicola and Crooked Hillary”
By September, it’s likely to be Wee Nicola and the dependable, matriarchal alternative to Boris’s chaotic buffoonery – Theresa May 🙂
Theresa May? She always reminds me of what you would get if you dug up Margaret Thatcher’s corpse, radiated it and stuck it back in the House of Commons in a pair of kitten heels from wwww.mutton-dressed-as-lamb.com.
Apologies to one of my favourite poets, Shelley, who was active two hundred years ago in 1816 (also “the year without a summer”):
“I met Murder on the way
She had a mask like Theresa May…”
As you all seem to be eager beavers about furrin German programmes about Scotland/Brexit, we had a 45 min. ZDF Special this evening incl. an interview with the great Angus Robertson at 15.30 rest time.
Here’s the archive version. Have fun – viel Spass..! 🙂
link to zdf.de
Dr Jim and others
re Rajoy. I am struggling because I do not speak much Spanish and do not have a reliable translation of his press conference. I am getting wound up as others are by the BBC and press going anti Scotland crazy in the last few days. It has gone off the dial.
All fun and games and what we expect from the BBC but this shit just got serious and they are desperate for our future to be fucked. They are actually opposed to Nicola making a success of negotiations.
I will say that again as it brings us to the heart of the matter. They are opposed to Nicola making a success of negotiations.
Our country’s future welfare is at stake and all they care about is tory internal politics, destroying Corbyn and ensuring that the last thing my bairns have is a future within the EU and all the opportunities and safeguards that offers.
@Iain More
There’ll be an article soon on a well-known paper “The view from Catalonia”. Then there’ll be comments below the line about how the * are * and can’t have our fish. That’ll also be all over social media with twits being thick moronic destructive brain-dead sticky gingered twits, and then by the weekend there’ll be new “vile cybernats being xenophobic again, but this time it’s NOT the English, can the EU handle this?”.
It’s not popcorn I need, it’s a vomit bucket. We’re in sight of this, it’s going, it’s moving, I can see it, I can smell it, Independence 2 or 3 years away perhaps, and aresholes want to throw it all away.
Farage saying `Scotland can F’ck off`
link to youtube.com
at 1.29,
did he mean it figuratively or literally,
I think the latter.
Can I just say that it is mental mental chicken oriental that yoon politicians / media and Yoony peeps, in fact everyone and their feckin uncle are constantly promoting a ‘Norway’ type deal for the UK with the EU as being the Nirvana for UK post BREXIT.
(Slight problem re free movement for numpty Brigade though lolz).
Funny that, is it not, because whenever SNP mentioned ‘Norway’ as successful model for Scotland being an independent country pre/post Indy they were pooh poohed by the very same twits who now seem to think NORWAY is a perfect example of how to be successful in Europe.
Apologies if someone else has said this in any previous post but I turned over , by mistake, to Scotland 2016 and some Yoon twat was spouting this very same shit.
Enough already Yoons…ya dissed Norway in lead up to Indy referendum…and ya ain’t getting yir own way and ya ain’t getting NO same deal. The only country getting a DEAL is Indy Scotland .
Suck it up.
ps. Had a Banana today……..it was as crap as the shit that comes out of Farage’s big mouthed gob.
Grouse Beater
Are you not happy with what Rajoy said?
Would you prefer that it were possible for Scotland to be in the EU & the UK?
Perhaps I’m getting this wrong but the way I see it is that Rajoy is saying a UK Scotland will have to leave the EU which I think is fine.
However the situation for an iScotland is a totally different story.
I like the idea put forward in comment 34 in Der Speigel article
England & Wales should leave the UK which leaves Scotland & Ireland as the EU member. That would save years of exit negotions for England & Wales and leave Scotland and Ireland as the member state. Sorted! Everyone would be happy!
Didn’t remember the eu ref being on the cards unless folk voted Tory at 2015 general election. Tories were in coalition and couldn’t deliver it without a majority. It was only being talked about,mostly by kippers. Tories used the promise of an eu ref to head ukip off.
Heedtracker
“The Guardian says something not awful about Scotland and my Slovene girlfriend’s getting even angrier with me, and you”
For months I have been trying to determine why you have been going out with Prof Tompkins as I would have to say he is not even a “looker”.
If your are not in a relationship, can you explain the “my Slovene girlfriend” bit? If it’s any consolation I also have been unlucky in love..
Robert Peffers,
“Poor old Rock is a victim of brainwashing and would rather believe any bullshit that comes from the Establishment is stone cold truth when there isn’t a single bit of hard legal evidence to back it up.”
You seem to think that you are the only one in 300 years who has the “hard legal evidence”.
If you are as clever as you think, why didn’t you actually do something with your “hard legal evidence”?
Was Alex Salmond also brainwashed when he signed the Edinburgh Agreement with the UK Prime Minister to have a legally binding referendum when the SNP had a majority in the Scottish parliament?
Or was he not as smart as you would have been in his position?
Why do you think the SNP majority in the Scottish parliament didn’t vote down the Smith Commission proposals?
You think that all current SNP MPs and MSPs are “bloody clowns and congenital idiots exactly like you who meekly accept the Westminster Establishments propaganda as the stone cold truth.”
Forget about Spain.
France too has made it perfectly clear today that all negotiations will be with the UK, not Scotland.
Junker has also made it perfectly clear that Scotland has earned a right to be heard, but the EU cannot interfere with internal UK matters.
Despite your repeated pish, as far as international bodies are concerned, politically Scotland is nothing more than a region of the UK state, the official member of the EU.
The UK and the rest of the world don’t give a damn about your f—–g Kingdoms and their purring queen.
England my beloved England: by a Scotsman, I don’t wish to be named
Under the spreading chestnut tree the village smithy stands a mighty man is he with strong and sinewy hands, in a land where you could wander lonely as a cloud and see hosts of golden daffodils under a warm summer sun in a balmy meadow with skylarks on high singing to their mates
Butterflies hovering over swathes of dandelions while the hereford cattle low in the gentle pastures and the distant thwack of leather striking willow while the bells peel cheerily from the local churchyard the sound of a horse and trap clip past,
And that’s because there’s no Fucking cars cause the Germans took them back to get made in fucking China ya stupit English Bastirts
The EU [not UK] and the rest of the world don’t give a damn about your f—–g Kingdoms and their purring queen.
Evan on Newsnight gently ripping the tory guy Crispin something apart in his jovial way.
He is highlighting how you can’t expect an arrangement where nice middle and upper class folk like himself are able to move at will to a nice wee gaff in France whilst stopping all these furriners coming to England.
It seems like a fairly obvious point.
Jeremy’s coverage on newsnight reminds me of Gerry Adams all those years ago.
EBC NEWSNIGHT IN FULL BORE ANTI SCOTTISH PROPAGANDA. With well balanced comment from Tam Dalyell, Alex Massie, Melanie Phillips. Not.
That just goes to show how the EBC strives for balance and fairness. EBC MUST NOT BE ALLOWED TO TRANSMIT THIS LITTLE ENGLANDER PROPAGANDA AND BLATANT LIES TO THE SCOTTISH PEOPLE. THEY TREAT US LIKE SHIT, THATS WHAT THEY THINK OF US.
PROUD YOONS, THAT INCLUDES YOU.
Tam Jardine says:
29 June, 2016 at 11:35 pm
Dr Jim and others
re Rajoy. I am struggling because I do not speak much Spanish and do not have a reliable translation of his press conference.
Ruby replies
Do you have a link to his press conference?
I can’t imagine he is going to be saying anything of much interest.
We already know what he said during the IndyRef now all he is saying is if the BBC have got it right is that if the UK leave the EU then a Scotland within the Union will also have to leave the EU.
What will happen to an iScotland is a whole different story.
@Ruby
I thinl that’s what they’re all saying in their different subtle and not so subtle ways. I’ve been looking agog for the last couple of days, not believing our incredible good luck. All avenues apart from Indy Ref 2 are being exploited throughly, and just as thoroughly closed off. Yipppe-dooo-ducking-dah!!!!
@Stephen McKenzie
I’ve always presumed it’s to do with a Slovenian poster in the Grun and then the Herald, them moved on to the Scotsman, who used to write the complete works of Rabbie Burns and Shakespeare in every post, and who some people suspected was a certain North Briton in disguise. I could be wrong.
Ruby: “Are you not happy with what Rajoy said?”
It isn’t a matter of being happy. The Spanish people are relieved Scotland wants to stay in. He’s said nothing of any importance. What you are reading in the UK press is third-hand, or twitter whispers.
Rajoy is just as worried as the other nation states that the UK’s exit into Blimpish xenophobia and certain obscurity will make the EU unstable.
Spain needs EU subsidies.
A wee reminder – the Wee Ginger Dug speaks fluent Spanish.
yesindyref2 says:
29 June, 2016 at 11:02 pm
@Jim “Ah well Mr Rajoy, if that is true then take your fishing boats and get tae fuck!”
Thanks Jim, there’s Sturgeon doing a charm offensive throughoutt the EU to smoothe our transition after the Indy Referendum, there’s Alun Smith getting a standing ovation in the European Parliament, there’s Angus Robertson talking in Austria, and you take the fucking bait from the BBC’s distorted view of what Senor Rajoy is saying, and tell the Spanish to fuck off, trying your pig-ignorant best to destroy all the work the SNP are doing.
Well, you fuck off, and all the arseholes who swallow the bait the BBC throw at them, and the media distort, but have no brains to see througb it.
_______________
yesindyref2 says:
29 June, 2016 at 11:07 pm
@Jim
Aye and “Jim”, and I don’t mean Dr Jom, I mean “Jim”, go back to your fellow party member David Coburn in UKIP and tell him it didn’t work.
________________________
Actually you fucking wankstain, I am an SNP member so stick that up your no doubt ample arsehole.
I said allegedly or are your reading skills a bit fucked up.
By the way it is Alyn Smith, you;re welcome.
Dr Jom, lmfao, are you drunk?
So basically, go fuck yourself you deluded arsehole.
Folk on here getting overwrought, and I understand
I should post the Brexit Hitler parody, it’s quite funny.
Exchange on English lefty political page –
Stop fucking moaning. There is no way the EU won’t have free trade with us.
Really? Do enlighten us.
We buy loads of German cars.
Right, so the UK is the only place in the world that Germans can sell their cars?
Paula Rose
Cheers
Stephen McKenzie says:
29 June, 2016 at 11:42 pm
If your are not in a relationship, can you explain the “my Slovene girlfriend” bit? If it’s any consolation I also have been unlucky in love..
Ruby replies
LOL! 🙂 🙂 I believe they had an online relationship! If I remember correctly she claimed to be called Jezerna Rosa from Slovenia but it turned she has a he from England who is currently living in Hillhead and is looking to take over from Tory Ruth while still carrying on with his day job.
What happened to you? Oh don’t tell me you had an online relationship with Fifi le Bonbon? 🙂
Dr Jim,
“You gotta watch that naughty media with their “Lost in Translation stuff” or misuse of”
“Competence” and “Authority” both mean the same thing in this context. Scotland simply doesn’t have the power to do anything more than be politely listened to.
As for “Competence”, there is now no doubt whatsoever in Scotland, England and the EU that Nicola and the SNP government are by far the most competent leader and government in the UK.
The blue and red Tories are extremely competent as well – at protecting their own self interests – the plebs can go to hell.
They are the laughing stock of the world.
Grouse Beater says:
29 June, 2016 at 11:02 pm
Jim: “Rajoy allegedly, If the UK leaves, Scotland leaves”.
A deliberate UK media misrepresentation of Rajoy’s stance. He has not got the majority to say anything other than all matters are ‘on the table.’
__________
At least you quoted correctly that I wrote, “Allegedy”
I thank you for your sensible reply.
My take on it was that, “If” it was true, then there would be no entry for Galician fishermen in Scottish waters and they could indeed, “get themselves tae fuck”.
May will be the next PM. It has been obvious for some years that she is the one anointed by the forces of darkness in the Tory party, the covering up and burying of her many major faux pas in the Home Office, errors which would have required the resignation of any other minister, made that abundantly clear.
Cameron was actually the good guy here, relatively speaking, a one nation Tory, he has done about as much as he could to delay, thwart, expose and nullify that force, but has ultimately failed.
Heaven help us all
Dr Jim says:@ 29 June, 2016 at 1:49 pm
Excellent post.
@Ruby 11:55
“I’ve always presumed it’s to do with a Slovenian poster in the Grun and then the Herald, them moved on to the Scotsman, who used to write the complete works of Rabbie Burns and Shakespeare in every post, and who some people suspected was a certain North Briton in disguise. I could be wrong”
Jings.. She sounds like a bit of a gab then. Heedtracker is probably best out of it. Plenty more fish in the sea as the say.
Hi K1.
I’m on a MacPro at home and an iMac at work. I got the same invitation to download on both machines. It looked like this:-
link to i.imgur.com
You’ll note that I haven’t ticked the “Do this automatically for files like this from now on” box. Maybe you have, at some point in the past, and that’s why you’re not seeing an invitation to download? It’s being done in the background without your knowledge?
Dear Rev,
Europe’s media are joining in on the project v2 against the Scottish independence movement. This piece from a German newspaper essentially equates the SNP to hate speech and 1930s nationalism, and also calls Scotland an under-developed peripheral place, as well as referring to our politicians as Führers and linking the SNP to Austria’s far-right FPO party. link to blogs.faz.net
How can we really win against this Europe wide wave of smears?
yesindyref2 says:
29 June, 2016 at 11:02 pm
@Jim “Ah well Mr Rajoy, if that is true then take your fishing boats and get tae fuck!”
Well, you fuck off, and all the arseholes who swallow the bait the BBC throw at them, and the media distort, but have no brains to see througb it.
____________
yesindyref2 says:
29 June, 2016 at 11:07 pm
@Jim
Aye and “Jim”, and I don’t mean Dr Jom, I mean “Jim”, go back to your fellow party member David Coburn in UKIP and tell him it didn’t work.
________________
You obviously don’t understand the word, “Allegedly”
It’s Alyn Smith. by the way, you’re welcome.
Maybe you need to stay away from alcohol when you post because you come across like you have had too much!
I am nothing to do with UKIP.
You think this is all about you and cause divisions amongst others with genuine concerns and resort to childlike insults.
So here is one, basically, you can go fuck yourself you monumental arsehole.
Stephen McKenzie says:
29 June, 2016 at 11:42 pm
Heedtracker
If your are not in a relationship, can you explain the “my Slovene girlfriend” bit? If it’s any consolation I also have been unlucky in love..
Ruby replies
I posted this already but it seems to have disappeared.
Headtracker I believe had an online relationship with someone called Jezerna Rosa from Slovenia and it turned out she has a he and is from England and currently living in Hillhead and hopes to take over from ToryRuth but still carry on with his day job.
What happened to you? Don’t tell me you had an online relationship with someone called Fifi le Bonbon. 🙂
Perhaps Frau Merkel will now offer to invite Scotland to be a Bundesland so that we can remain in the EU like was the case with DDR.
That would be a vast improvement on our currrent arrangements with Westminster.
Personally I’d settle for being part of Belgium.
Over 2000 different beers and soon to be Champions of Euorope !
What we’re missing here is that the whole mess created by the media over the last X number of years and their current reaction to Indyref2 shows nothing more than the fact they have learned absolutely nothing. Politicians, Press and Media rolling out the same war weary faces with the same tired arguments.
They will not win.
They are doing the same yet again in their tried and tested formula of talking down to each and every person in Scotland.
Meanwhile the polls have turned and will continue to rise in favour of Independence.
Our job is to inform those who are less well informed with the information they require to counter the arguments and lies that are perpetuated by the political classes whose aim it is to keep Scotland eating its cereal.
Nicola Sturgeon speaking to Jean-Claude Juncker etc. has put the fear of their God into them as THEY know it would go well and full support will be given to Independent Scotland after Indyref2.
They have been exposed and have lost support here. The tide has turned. Meanwhile the Tories are killing each other for the PM job and Labour is on Suicide Watch while Corbyn is the Chilcot monkey they want to hang.
Do not give up on the prize.
Do not give in to their volleys.
Do not get angry at their lies and misinformation
But most of all DO NOT BE SILENT.
This is what they want as they try to divide and conquer. After 300+ years of practice they are good at it.
Scotland is in its 4th year of fighting the propaganda since the start of Indyref1 and the tide has already turned in our favour.
We can’t really slag off the tories and labour if we resort to fighting ourselves, just saying, and is a monumental arsehole one made of marble?
link to thecourier.co.uk
Officials at American bank JP Morgan have said they expect Scotland to vote Yes to independence in a second referendum.
Experts also said the country would introduce its own currency before the UK leaves the European Union in 2019.
In a note to clients, bank economist Malcolm Barr said: “Our base case is that Scotland will vote for independence and institute a new currency at that point (2019).”
Interesting stuff, and surprisingly specific…..
Can anyone help please?
What does England & Wales trade with all these new markets that they are hoping to open up?
Andrew McLean says:
30 June, 2016 at 12:35 am
We can’t really slag off the tories and labour if we resort to fighting ourselves, just saying, and is a monumental arsehole one made of marble?
_____________
I did write, “allegedly”, used to convey that something is claimed to be the case or has taken place, although there is no proof, then that arsehole went on the attack.
I stand by what I said in the event that what Rajoy said was true, the Spanish fleet would no longer be welcome in our fishing grounds.
By the way, a monumental arsehole is one of great extent, size, a more than ample mega-arsehole.
One that has no shame in attacking a fellow Independence supporter.
It aint all about him or her.
For once, I can’t argue with a single line Stu says.
Since my letter to my local MP, I’ve discovered she was simultaneously resigning. There’s been pro-Corbyn (and pro-EU) demonstrations in Bristol. I met up with one of my longest friends and discovered they’d voted Leave, and could only justify it with “National identity is a human trait. I believe after years of pain we’ll triumph, it’s the British way.” I told him he assumed it wouldn’t be him suffering, but it probably would be me (long term illnesses) and said “Thanks a fucking bunch”. He left depressed, I told him he should be.
It’s hard to stay sane and sensible in the face of such enraging political self destruction the UK is engaged in. I criticized the Wee Black Book because people hate being told it’s hopeless, but I never expected this level of idiocy across all levels of society, so now I fully expect enough of Scotland to see it as a valid reason to opt out.
It’s going to be an appallingly messy divorce too. I do what I can to fight it; I’ve started a petition to deselect my own local MP so we have more MPs who actually care about doing the right thing, rather than throwing a strop because they find colleagues personally hard to deal with… you’re our elected government, not a fucking social club you assholes. But increasingly, it’s hard to see what about England is worth fighting for.
Logic bubble time.
Rajoy did say if the UK leaves the EU then Scotland does too.
However, he is responding to Catalans seizing on Nicola’s access to EU leaders.
Quite understandable.
Just as was his threat that UK nationals in Spain would be under threat of exile if BREXIT occurred.
Ideally, what should happen is that the Scottish Government meet with him to explain Scotland’s completely different circumstance to Catalunya, namely that Scotland was a long established independent nation which entered into a voluntary union with England and Wales and which can be dissolved.
Also pointing out that neither is Spain planning to exit the EU.
Give him something he can use to differentiate,
I wonder what Andrew Neil will do now? Move hame? Back to the old home town …. totally run doon Paisley? Run doon due to Westminster cuts and Labour Party toon cooncillor mismanagement. The Better Together team in action. Better Together team results in Scotland. Pot holes, pound shops and boarded up windows.
His main residence is a villa in the South of France with an apartment in London that he uses as a base to enable him easy access to the BBC to spout his propaganda. Distanced himself from Scotland long ago. The country of his birth that afforded him an excellent education and a decent start in life. Neil the Scot with the ‘I’m all right Jack’ English mentality.
This is a Wow(all he did was insult eu parliament)
Theresa May
Theresa May? @TheresaMay_MP
You deserved that moment
Nigel Farage? @Nigel_Farage
Thrilled that 4 million people have taken the time to watch my speech in the European Parliament yesterday:
Oooft! Blow for Sturgeon!
“U.S. bank JP Morgan said on Wednesday it now expects Scotland to vote for independence and introduce its own currency before Britain leaves the European Union in 2019.”
link to twitter.com
Spin oan that BBC Englandshire/Scotlandshire!
We need to stop listening to the ‘balanced’ stories from another wee country dan saff and check out what the world is saying about us.
I happened on a chap Tom something on one of the live news bulletins before one of the Asia/ Business programs on the 27th/28th who may have been JP Morgan or a US reporter (Jeez this twitter/tv news/radio sleep deprived marathon is making me doubt whether I’m awake or have fallen down some rabbit … never mind)
He was explaining the downgrade in the credit ratings and said these agencies had responsibilities to massive global investors.
During the explanation he said something like “Scotland will now go for independence and with it Scotland will be off with its oil as well”
“The agencies are basing their credit ratings on how the remainder of the UK can trade and function in two to three years’ time.”
He also said “The slide in the pound and how it is affecting global markets may need large state financial involvement to steady it” or something like that. I have been searching for the clip for hours/days to try and post it.
Any help would be welcome.
It now looks like game on much faster than we thought so are we ready and importantly, how do we counter the news “where they are”?
Sorry to go O/T
Hi Brian, I didn’t get anything like that and this vid has not downloaded on to my laptop. It just plays the video. I have never seen that screen before and wouldn’t click on it if I had.
I would never click on any files to download automatically on to my laptop
We are simply not experiencing the same problem regarding the link I posted at 3.34pm. So it’s not a Windows based issue as you are on a Mac too. Have no clue what any of this signifies. It’s not some random link from an unknown source I posted, it was from the DR (not that that means anything), just to point out it was from a ‘recognised’ ‘news’ (okay, comic), site.
Its a shot to nothing if we get indyref2 within 4 years of last one so lets get it on ASAP.
I’m punch drunk and gettin used to being dingied so can handle any fall out nae tother abaw.
Mon the Scots.
Hi K1.
Check out these links:-
link to en.wikipedia.org
http://www.streamingmedia.com/Articles/Editorial/What-Is-…/What-is-HLS-(HTTP-Live-Streaming)-78221.aspx
So, it would appear that instead of a video just playing in the web browser (like YouTube), a playlist is created within an app on your Mac (iTunes?) and that’s what showing it, rather than just the web browser.
@Jim
If you feel the need to tell someone to “get tae fuck”, then by all means do it to me. I’ll just sit here, maybe having a swig of tea (rarely drink these days), flex my occasioanlly RSI fingers especially when I’m very angry, and smile.
Because I’ll be voting YES again, same as I did in 1979, 1997 and 2014, regardless, and will be smiling because with any luck one insult aimed at me is one less at someone else who might vote YES, or someone whose vote could be the difference between Scotland being in the EU or not in the EU. Which Indy Ref 2 will be about, in terms of attracting previous NO voters.
So go ahead, make my day, and perhaps spend a little time wondering what the real definition of an arsehole is.
In terms of the Indy debate of course.
Try this if the second link doesn’t work:-
link to archive.is
Found on another forum. A posted jpg with name of originator removed.
Too good not to share.
link to i51.photobucket.com
@Ruby
Sorry Ruby I’m no use at the linky stuff but what I can say is people are using translating machines or are picking up every other word and when you do that it loses the nuance of the text implied
Many folk including the TV people, and that probably is because they want to deliberately, are using literal translation to confuse
While it is true that Sr Rajoy was saying if the UK is out so is Scotland but he wasn’t being unpleasant about it he was simply stating a fact of the rules as he sees it
In particular folk are siezing on the word “competence” as we might use it, but in Madrid Spanish, (because it should be noted that in Spain dialects are important) his meaning refers to “Authority” as we would use it, but some are implying Sr Rajoy means the Scottish government are not competent and that’s far from the reality of the use of his words
Sr Rajoy speaks Catalan and Valenciana and probably the Seville dialect as well
I speak dirty Madrid as taught to me when I lived there, that’s like speaking broad Glasgow slang so I’m a scruff in Spain but then again that’s pretty much how most people speak but I also read Spanish I had too because I wouldn’t pay for british papers
Sr Rajoy is an abrupt sounding man which is common in Spain so along with the misuse of translation and his tone Bingo he’s a bad man, but he’s only playing to a Catalan audience in the North whereas in the south nobody cares what he says or in what language he says it
Sr Rajoy though is not a fool and he’ll get on board with the plan because it’s in his interests to do so 800.000 brits live in Spain mostly pensioners who get all their health paid for by the UK health insurance and it’s well overcharged for, every motorway was paid for by the EU, the Mediteranean doesn’t contain enough of the fish the Spanish need and they need a lot, and from Scotland alone up to one million tourists a year all in June and July, that’s a lot of San Miguel, Estrella and Mahou beer, I know I sold the stuff at up to 12 barrels a week and that’s not including cider spirits wine cans soft drinks food, pool tables, bandits and my place was a local restaurante not a beach place in Benidorm where it’s 30 or 40 barrels a week
My place turned over a quarter of a million a year and my patrons were mostly English pensioner resident ex pats so you can see the size of the tourist economy and the resident one, it’s massive, never fear about Sr Rajoy
So does that mean this MU3 file coding is embedded in that video from the Daily Record?
Any idea why this coding hasn’t created a downloaded video into my iTunes?
Is it ‘malware’ Brian?
I also got the instant automatic download after clicking K1’s link; when I tried to open it I was shown an instruction to acquire an app.
So I just went into my Downloads folder and deleted it. There’s no sign of anything untoward as a consequence – yet.
@K1
M3U8 is a audio and video streaming format.
link to en.wikipedia.org
You can get malware in just about all executables, even jpgs.
Aye yesindyref, same link Brian posted above. Just trying to figure out why the link didn’t create an automatic download on my laptop as it seems to have done on others. None the wiser 🙁
@K1
It could depend on your browser, and its settings. Can’t help really, I’m computer literate but downloads always seem to be a problem until you mess around with some random settings and everything works fine. It took me time with Firefox to realise the down arrow at the top was where to find downloads, I just thought it was ingoring them.
OT
Oh, in fact it’s actually on topic.
Just been watching a bit more shown pf the UK Parliament, more than the clip the anti-Corbyn media likes to show where Cameron tells Corbyn he should just go.
And there you have Corbyn asking the PM, the Tory PM, just the questions an opposition leader should be asking the PM, and stnading his ground as he’s done before. Cameron used to run rings around Miliband, but not with Corbyn.
But what do you have? Total lack of support from his lily-livered scared party behind him, so Cameron – and the Tories – get off scot-free, or should I say ukipfree.
I want Indy, but the rUK pParliament is in a desperate stae, it needs a non-SNP effective opposition, and the prospects of that for the next 10 yeras while the Labour party consumes itself in its ususal infighting is totally negligble.
Specially when we get Indy and the SNP are no longer there.
Yeah, how will this Article 50 process be initiated by the current PM?
Will it be publicly announced and effected immediately?
Will it be publicly announced with a trigger date set?
Will it all be conducted privately through the EU folkspeople?
Naebuddy knows, it’s all new to us!
@the current PM
Scotland has moved on. The people of England and Wales democratically voted to leave the European Union, so respect their wishes and to coin a recent and familiar phrase used by yourself..
“For heaven’s sake man, go!”
Scotland’s, taking care of business, a thank you very much (TCB)
Another pile of smouldering crap from Reuters:
link to archive.is
@Yesindyref2
Yesterday was a good day for both the SG and the Scottish electorate (though not all of the electorate may agree). Scotland was warmly received by all the right bodies and I’m sure the meet n greet/fact finding mission is well under way.
Sr Rajoy simply reiterated Spain’s position, as it was two years ago, and effectively gave our own position a fairly big nudge in the direction we’d most like it to travel.
Don’t know about anyone else, but I’ve got a contented smile on my kisser this morning.
Most important thing is that the right folk are on the job trying to protect those accrued rights and keep Scotland’s membership secure. There is and always has been only one route to ensure no more Westminster government and in particular Conservative governments… independence.
If the current crisis doesn’t drive this home, then nothing will. Right now we are facing an utterly needless constitutional, societal and economic crisis brought on by naked short-termist, thoughtless ambition. Party power politics at its worst with both the major Westminster parties indulging in the grossest dereliction of responsibility I’ve ever seen.
People are afraid and they have a right to be. As of this moment the UK central govt. is effectively leaderless. The economy is, at best, going to suffer through a soft recession, at worst, let’s no go there. Our caring sharing society has suddenly shown a far darker side to the world and worse, to its own citizens. Finally its own constitutional make up is under severe threat.
Everything people thought they knew about themselves and their respective nations in this union has been turned on its head and the state has abdicated responsibility to the winds. We’re lucky in Scotland. We have the right team on top of their brief and putting the people first. And by ‘the people’ I mean everyone, whether they support our government or not, they’re going to benefit from the actions taken since last Friday. They’ll choose the best path to protect all interests, but if it takes independence to protect them and their children, all of our futures, then independence it’ll have to be.
We’re in a position where this has gone beyond simple tribal loyalties to party or deference to ‘an order’. This is about duty of care, responsibility and the protection of the people and their rights from elitist and negligent government. Its literally about survival and how we relate to the world.
Some folk have a choice to make and hopefully that rare second chance to make it. Not simply what country they want to live in, but what kind of country?
I actually feel quite badly for those living down south. It must be a depressing sight for some to just look at the state of Westminster and not having a single competent party to vote for on the ballot paper.
Thank god I grew up in Scotland because as a young person growing up in England I wouldn’t have been able to vote for anything worthwhile.
Macart @ 4.29am = )
Well said!
I don’t like hearing that anyone has ‘snubbed’ our FM but that is the language of the BUM. Shrugs. No surprise there. Still don’t like it though.
Funnily enough felt mildly disturbed when the BUM, briefly, when taken off guard, nearly made positive comments about Scotland and our prospect of independence. That was just too strange. Didn’t take them long to get back to normal operations.
I really do hope these talks open new lines of communication and leave the EU with a very good impression of Scotland and our government.
As many Wingers have already said, I trust Nicola Sturgeon and our Scottish Government to guide us through these unknown waters and to bring us all safely home = )
Rajoy didn’t bang his desk I anger. He said positively, Scotland is in when independent.
He dare not alienate the Spanish people who welcome Scotland’s attitude.
The alcoholic hacks of unionism are doing their best to convince us independence is a terrible sacrifice to make just to stay friends with our European partners. Really?
Too funny for words.
Links
link to pilaraymara.com
link to indyref2.scot
link to stv.tv
link to theconversation.com
Links
tvs-failure-to-properly-scrutinise-boris-johnsons-eu-claims-a-criminal-act
link to archive.is
link to ukconstitutionallaw.org
link to businessforscotland.co.uk
Welcome to Wangland
link to archive.is
The President of Spain ended his answer with this phrase:
“What happens in the future, listen, it no longer has anything to do with me”.
The real uncertainty the British press don’t want to draw attention to is whether the UK government can guarantee expat’s pensions in Spain. So far, Cameron refuses to do it.
When you see what really happened. it was an extremely productive supportative meeting. Without MSM censorship. How much the EU care about each other. Scotland will definitely be an Independent country within the EU with policies that support the Scottish economy. It will make Scotland a more successful, fairer, equal wealthier, happier country. At last Scotland will be at peace, with competent people at the helm.
Thanks Nicola, Alex & Co and the SNP and it’s members for all you do for Scotland. A Billion thanks.
Thanks to Rev Stu and thanks to Wings. A Billion thank you’s for all you do. Wonderful. Let progression commence. The road is long, but we can travel it and it will be worth it.
@ Dr Jim 29 June 2016 at 1.52 am
How interesting. Who’d have thought it. Your Spanish connections. Many have them. It’s a small world.
What happened to Meths? (Retired English teacher in Spain – Re the Scotsman website)
He knew Eric Joyce ( Grahamski) Anyone know?
La Bon – the racist unionist who had contempt for ‘foreigners’ and migrants, but appreciated criminal warmongers who bankrupted Britain and caused migration and poverty.
If Cameron and the Tories drag their feet on triggering A50 I wonder how the EU would stop the UK from taking up the Presidency next year?
Dr Jim 1.52 and Macart 4.29
This is why I come to Wings – excellent, insightful analysis.
Thanks
Cameron has to guarantee ex pat pensions in Spain. They paid in and have equal rights to their assets. Cameron/Westminster could be taken to (International) court and forced to pay out. That would squander even more of taxpayers money. They only way it will stop is when they die.
Or they will return to the UK and get higher (welfare) benefits and have to be re housed etc. At a higher cost to Westminster. It would be cheaper and easier to just pay the pensions (pittance) payments they are due and they can stay where they are or want to be. Easier and cheaper. Scottish taxpayers pay (UK) Gov pensions/benefits for Scottish citizens. £16Billion a year raised in Scotland.
Cameron is an incompetent ignoramous who will not be there much longer. So is Osbourne – next for the chop? It took them a year+ to destroy the UK economy. Incredible.
When Cameron shouts at Colbyn like an ignorant bully. It is because he is being caught out. He shouts out anything he can as a distraction. It just make Cameron look ignorant, nasty and incompetent.
Definately doesn’t look like Boris. Another disaster waiting to happened. Ignorance beyond belief.
Eagle will be soaring soon and come down with a bump. The Trade Unions are moving in to sort it. The money people, The hard men. They support Corbyn. The PLP members dissents will be put in their place or disappear.
Watson was trying to undemocratically parachute a Trade Union candidate in – Falkirk. Didn’t get away with it.
Looks like BUM are going to link Scotland to Gibraltar in some sort of political pact.
This would be the worst possible road Scotland could go down.
Full independence is the only way for Scotland, and we will manage fine without an empire.
@ Chic McGregor 30 June 2016 at 1.37 am
Thanks
Absolutely Brilliant. – ‘Complete bonkers’
@ Nana – Thanks for all your brilliant links and thanks for all you do. @ keeping people sane. x
Thanks Rev Stu – Wings for keeping people sane. Thanks to everyone, especially the SNP Gov protecting Scotland from the worst excesses and holding the low lives to account.
Only good thing about an Exit vote is the thought it could possibly remove any reason for David Coburn to be giving air-time again.
That mans presence should make every Scot cringe. He is now playing the ‘I represent 40% of the Scots electorate’ card and trying to up his profile for the game ahead..we have to watch these rodents like a hungry hawk.
Grouse Beater, thank you for the update = ) Most heartening and just as I suspected! Lying toerags.
Ken 500 Lovely words! That’ll keep us going = )
Nana, (how are you? much much better I hope!) Lots of lovely new reading, thank you!
I spotted that article on STV news re the Speaker refusing (not his place) to inform the Scottish Government of changes in law, put through by WM, that would effect the Scottish Government, WHAT?!!
I found it after I clicked on ‘more politics’. If it was ever up amongst the main news over the last couple of days I must have missed it and was kinda surprised that no one had commented on it. That is weird.
Apparently the latest one, which Tricia Marwick questioned in March was to do with gagging Hollyrood on Brexit while in the debating chamber being filmed. What the heck?!
How do we make Joe Public aware that this kind of picking apart of their Government is going on in this most undemocratic, secretive and subversive way.
I remember the HOL choosing to take back power over the renewable energy investment subsidies (spotted it on Newsnet a few months before the Indyref), to begin in 2017 and then hauled back to 2016 to the huge detriment and surprise of our blossoming new industry. That never got the air time it deserved.
What’s next? Oh yeah, dragged out of Europe! GAME ON!
Ken 500, Meths? the man with the plunge pool? I seem to remember an open invitation to celebrate indy in that pool.
I too wonder if he is lurking somewhere under a different name or is he far too relaxed drinking a lovely rioja while sitting poolside.
Thanks to all and sundry on here for widening my knowledge and helping my sadly lacking skills in other languages.
Goes without saying that my thanks to Rev Stu is boundless.
Spain isn’t a problem. At worst its a challenge, but a nature of challenge which grown up countries relish and embrace all the time.
Our real enemies are much closer to home. And no, I don’t mean those amongst us born without ambition, I mean our real enemy, alert, alive, and currently on active deployment in the field. Our hostile puppet media.
The UK media cynically and wilfully wrecked the YES referendum by continually heckling the positives and amplifying anything and everything that could be given anti-independence spin. They got away with it wholesale. They are already doing it again, and again they are going unchallenged.
This same “pulp reality” media is the reason the UK has been led by the nose to the unfolding disaster of Brexit, where the BBC and mainstream press have parcelled UKIP’s xenophobic racism an insularism into friendly bitesize nuggets slipped surrupticiously into the nation’s diet, and has played upon peoples fears and concerns for years.
Irrespective of your politics, take the time to look closely at the media’s roll in the vicious hatchet job it has tried to affect on Jeremy Corbyn. It’s reach is thorough and deep, and jealous grasping self interest is much more vital to it than justice, honesty or virtue.
WE MUST NOT LET THE BBC AND MAINSTREAM MEDIA SET THE AGENDA IN OUR CAMPAIGN FOR SCOTLAND’S FUTURE.
Please, for the sake of Scotland and unborn generations of Scots, do not let the BBC corrupt our destiny again. Please, every spokesperson who cares about justice for Scotland, it is your DUTY to keep to matters of substance and relevance to Independence and challenge head on the bluster, misdirection, and manipulation of the agenda away from Scottish Sovereignty and into abstract topics of nightmares and contrived doomsday scenarios.
If you cannot maintain a clear focus and presence of mind throughout those few minutes in the studio spotlight, or cannot think quickly and articulate that thought in an instant, IF YOU CANNOT RECOGNISE PROPAGANDA BY IT’S SMELL, then please, I beg you, stay away from the media.
Where the watchword for YES 1 was hope, please, let the theme of YES 2 be all about focus.
Scary stuff
link to theguardian.com
BBC r4 news bashing on and on about who likes who in toryboy world, May hates Boris, they both hate Osborne, or Osborne hates Boris etc. BBC 2 Newsnight did the same thing referendum eve too. Fills dead BBC air but its hard to not wonder why the reprobates are not talking what and why’s of Brexit.
Other news from teamGB, £110 million at the bookies.
link to archive.is
Mr Hanbury, an Edinburgh University graduate, once said he looked for stocks which were wrongly seen as risky. He is then able to buy them up cheaply for a profit.
His latest coup will go down in hedge fund history and is comparable to a similar move by legendary investor George Soros ahead of Black Wednesday.
@Gerry says: 30 June, 2016 at 12:39 am:
” … Experts also said the country would introduce its own currency before the UK leaves the European Union in 2019.”
Scotland already has her own currency, Gerry. It has had it as long as this octogenarian can remember. I have many times been reminded of this while on courses conducted in the South East of England.
Where, upon tendering a Scottish banknote, the note was either rejected as not being, “English” Legal Tender, or even worse being informed that it was of less value than English Banknotes – as if there was an exchange rate difference between the two banknotes.
The point is we already have in place banknotes so different that they are recognizable as different by English people. The problem is thus only that the notes are tied exactly to “English”, currency.
In the event of Scottish Independence we simple keep our own currency, which is in fact legally the Pound Sterling.
The key point, though, is that we then do not link it to, ““The English” pound and let the two independent currencies float according to the two independent countries economies.
In other words we keep the pound but do not keep it in a formal currency union.
Which, of course, was what the UK government meant when they told us, during the indyref campaign, that England would not allow Scotland to, “Use”, the pound.
No one can stop anyone, or any country, using the pound as it is actually a commodity – as are all international trading currencies.
As Scotland, unlike England, does not have a negative balance of trade. We are net exporters while England are net importers and so the Scottish pound would outstrip the English pound almost from the off. This is, of course, not really a good thing for either country but a good deal worse for England.
England, France, Spain.
Three right-wing elitist controlled economies. Hiding behind luxury provided by ‘lesser’ nations.
Let’s have another Cod War- with us, and Iceland and some others depriving them of their right to consume vast quantities seafood.
That is why Watson is not moving against Colbyn. He is too scared of McCluskey. The others like multimillionaire Benn (hierarchy) etc are not astute enough or too politically unaware. They will reap what they sow.
The Trade Unions are culpable as well. They funded Brown and Blair. Greedy, conceited, lying troughers all out for themselves. All of them. It could be the end of Eagles criminal ‘career’. The Blairites are finished. Destroying the world economy created unnecessary hardship for people. Westminster/Unionist politicians.
Thanks to Faradge’s unexpected help. Someone should buy the guy a fag and a pint sometime. For having a plan on the back of a fag packet. Alcoholics make poor decisions affecting others. Often until they reach rock bottom. Without proper total abstinence, rehab and proper counselling. so they can take control. Then apology for their excesses. They have to make retribution to those they have harmed.
George Soros is a crook who destroyed the UK and Greek economy. Soros and Saudi Arabia fund terroristism. George Soros commits crime against humanity and should be in jail. He funds ISIS for profit. Soros is an international terrorist, criminal murderer who should be in jail. A disgrace to humanity, causing death and destruction for profit everywhere he operates.
Mr Hanbury’s ‘gain’ will be short live. Wait until the Brexit happens. He will be left carrying the can, as his ill gotten gain tanks.
I don’t think I can watch BBC a minute longer.
The misdirection and playing with the facts are now beyond belief.
There using the markets to try and put over a false message. Oohhhh the FTSE is up. Yea maybe so but it is up along with the DAX, Dow Jones. There movements are relative. There playing with people’s lack of information on how markets work.
Markets rise and fall relivent and in tandem to eachother daily. But the arse fell out the sterling 5 days ago. That hasn’t risen compared to the dollar or euro. Yes sterling has risen a little but along with the other currency’s rising at the same rate. There is still the massive gap between them cause by britexit.
Theresa May says she’s going to ‘unite’ the country.
Everybody should start their working day with a good belly laugh.
Dr Jim says:
Sr Rajoy speaks Catalan and Valenciana and probably the Seville dialect as well
Ruby replies
You are confusing me. 🙂 Surely you mean Castellano (Castilian) and not Catalan!
It would be quite funny if Rajoy did speek in Catalan!
Breeks says:
This same “pulp reality” media is the reason the UK has been led by the nose to the unfolding disaster of Brexit
Ruby replies
Absolutely spot on!
The country is being manipulated by the media!
Folks,
I think over analysing the markets to score points is easy but it’s a bit of a trap. On the eve of a possible indyref vote we will be seeing exactly the same.
Things will balance out but London might never be the same again in terms of its banking hegemony. Here’s hoping.
The easiest way out for Britain is fiscal expansion – aka govt spending. Also Mr Carney has offered to type up another £250 billion onto the books. This is exactly what is needed yet it would fly in the face of the neoliberal ideology.
This expansionary spending is precisely what Iceland did in the aftermath of its banking disaster and it has transformed its economy.
The economists who talk about Scotland needing to impose cuts for 10 years after independence sadly don’t understand macroeconomics.
I find it disturbing that prof Bell, BBC Scotland economic invitee teaches our kids economics.
Spain etc should not let their ‘statesmen’ speak out, with such intolerance of another nations democracy.
Grow up Spain, look around.
Another day another vow not to listen to Auntie’s shortbread radio but it’s not easy. I’ll see how long I can last… 🙂
The National:
JP Morgan planning for independent Scotland with its own currency before UK quits EU
link to archive.is
France is more equal and in less debt with a falling population but the economy under economic stress. Strikes mass demonstration, terrorist consideration. Hollande extremely unpopular and considered incompetent. Less debt – in the Eurozone. Open to pressure and persuasion? To reach agreement.
Spain’s economy tanked. 2008. It’s unrestricted over borrowing from London lending markets. Fleecing ‘foreigners’. House building and housing/building bubble. Still having an adverse effect. They only work 8 months of the year. A month’s holiday at Easter, Christmas and two months at summer, (like Westminster) but the whole economy. Rajoy does not have a full majority in Spanish Parliament. Bribery and Corruption is rife. High debt. Low economic activity.
Spain needs EU support, EU is willing to support Scotland. Rajoy needs to support Scotland for EU member support. 40 million population. (Catalonia 5 million pop, has more fiscal powers than Scotland as part of a federal Spain.) Needs people money for investment. Migration is a problem because of high unemployment, but flourishing black market because of tight labour restrictions. Beautiful country with lovely people. Relaxed nice lifestyle but too much (corrupt?) bureaucracy. Open to pressure and persuasion? To reach agreement.
Hollande and Rajoy and two unpopular leaders who do not have majority support in their countries. They need friends in the EU. A bit like Cameron – even more unpopular in the EU. They are probably glad to see the back of English politicians trying to cause trouble all the time. ‘Why are you here?’ says Juncker. (Ex Luxembourg PM). Luxembourg, a small country got wealthy on tax evasion Tax haven. Now changed. All has been forgiven?