The Strangulation Of Scotland
We’ve been off for a little break in the country, and as far as we can tell we’ve missed absolutely nothing in the moribund world of Scottish politics. We did, however, arrive back just in time for something mildly interesting, or at least revealing.
It’s the latest episode of a new podcast by veteran Scottish political journalist and broadcaster Bernard Ponsonby and jobbing opinion columnist Alex Massie, inventively titled The Ponsonby And Massie Podcast.
The first 35 minutes or so weren’t very noteworthy, other than the curious omission – when predicting the makeup of the next Scottish Government – of the idea of a Labour-SNP coalition, which to this site remains by far the most practical and logical outcome of the 2026 Holyrood election.
But then things got a little feisty.
We highly recommend watching the whole 11-minute segment we’ve extracted above, because if nothing else it showcases two prominent members of the Scottish political media – both capable of thoughtful insight – at their best and worst respectively.
Freed from the constraints of truncated and superficial TV soundbites, Ponsonby is magisterially impressive – meticulous, serious, persistent and fair – while Massie’s decision to bring a flippant, triumphalist, and frankly imperialist sneer to the debate seems a bad misjudgement by comparison.
Massie repeatedly says out loud what only the most rabid Yoons of social media are normally prepared to utter – that Scotland is a prisoner nation with no fundamental right of self-determination without the permission of the rest of the UK:
“It can never be permissible for one part of a state to have a unilateral right to hold a referendum on secession without the approval of the national parliament […] The dismemberment of the United Kingdom is clearly – and the law agrees with me here, happily – a reserved matter.”
But what Massie dismisses, with the arrogant chortle of a feudal landowner refusing his serfs a living wage, is what Article 1 of the UN Charter clearly and unambiguously states is not only permissible, but in fact one of the founding principles of modern civilisation as we know it.
Scots are a people, and are plainly not in possession of “self-determination” if their preferred constitutional arrangements depend upon the permission of another people (or peoples).
In most countries of the world, if one party to a marriage wants a divorce, a divorce happens, whether the other party wishes it to or not – and indeed even if they consider it a “dismemberment” of the marriage – and the likes of Alex Massie tend quite rightly to regard the few states which do not hold to that rule as examples of deeply un-British barbarism, and simply not cricket.
But we won’t walk you through every line, because we’ve put the whole video up there for you to see for yourself. Both of the men in it, in free and unmoderated conversation, have given us a glimpse of their real characters (and indeed their true self-perceived nationalities), and that glimpse not only reflects very considerably better on one than the other, but tells us a lot about the state of Scotland’s political media in general, and the inferiority of its current generation to its preceding one.
I genuinely, fundamentally cannot understand that particular aspect of Yoon thinking. Absolutely mental.
Massie’s assertion that we want to re-ask the question, simply because ‘we didn’t like the answer to the first one’ is a serious misrepresentation of the truth!
We want to re-ask the question, NOT because we didn’t like the answer to the first one, but because there have been outrageous and abusive changes in our circumstances since the first one, Brexit being the big one on several levels, but by no means is that the only one.
Another major change is that we have discovered via Salvo et al that Westminster’s exercise of authority over Scotland has been fundamentally bogus since 1707, and that England’s MPs have never possessed any formal constitutional right to overrule Scotland’s MPs on any matter of governance of the Union.
You wonder how people like Massie ever got a job beyond self stacking.
I’ve been lucky to travel around quite a bit of the plant and I’m amazed at how many countries broke away from an overpowering nation that robbed and ruled over them.
We can count 66 so called Common Wealth nations.
Hungary always resented being part of the forced Austro Hungarian Empire.
Brazil broke away from Portugal
Singapore away from Malaya
The US from Engla
Mexico, Panema, Peru,Argentina etc from Spain.
The many German, Belgian and French African colonies.
So Massie thinks none of these countries who are happy to rule themselves should have been allowed to leave their owners.
The man is an idiot Unionist useful for mindless propaganda.
OMG Massie is so creepy! He is so much a ‘good chap’ with that singleminded viewpoint that England (britain) is superior and Scotland just a little region with ideas above its station. His arguments are completely destroyed by Ponsonby, and he gets visibly agitated at Ponsonby being able to articulate a good argument. Stu is so correct to describe Massie’s argument as an imperialist sneer.
Yes, therein lies the difference between unionists and imperialists.
Scotland a colony basically.
So, I keep getting told this is a duplicate comment although I have not previously posted it at all. More psyops!
Massie is so much a ‘good chap’ with that singleminded viewpoint that England (britain) is superior and Scotland just a little region with ideas above its station. His arguments are completely destroyed by Ponsonby, and he gets visibly agitated at Ponsonby being able to articulate a good argument. Stu is so correct to describe Massie’s argument as an imperialist sneer.
IF YOU AIM TO CONCEAL, place in plain sight goes the maxim.
In plain sight, for the observant, is the evidence that modern Scotland plays little rôle in the running of the imperial relict «The United Kingdom».
It is functionally a mere «add on», however, an «add on» upon which the supposed power, prestige, status of the arthritic British state seems perversely to depend.
The Scots possess an ace card here, is that also expertly located in plain sight?
High time this visible, powerful card was brought into play with all the attendant bells, whistles and shouts of joy.
Touché mr Massie!
He’s a brilliant man Bernard Ponsonby. I like him. I think he’s very articulate. Has a presence that not a single presenter in Scotland has.
He has an intelligence and intellect that far surpasses that of anyone else I can think of – James Cook for example – pathetic dweeb of a commentator.
I’m glad he hasn’t retired from Politics. He’s a genius and Scotland needs a truth telling journalist that commands respect.
I hope he blows the lid on the alphabetties and Sturgeon.
Blow the lid on Sturgeon the Judas.
Get Bernard Ponsonby on the phone.
Send him all of the info you know on the Alphabetties. All of the dirt you have on Sturgeon the JUDAS.
We know she hates Scottish Independence. Send the info Ponsonby’s way. SET THE TRUTH FREE.
Dear Mr. Bernard Ponsonby,
I urge you to investigate and expose several critical issues:
The alleged involvement of Nicola Sturgeon in various controversies, including:
Operation Branchform and Operation Kopper.
The redacted James Hamilton inquiry and its potential cover-up.
The COVID-19 inquiry concerning care home deaths, purportedly linked to directives from Sturgeon, including the “Stronger for DNACPRS” initiative.
The purported cover-up by John Swinney of sexual abuse within Scotland’s legal system, possibly connected to the so-called “Magic Circle.”
Potential corruption within the media, including individuals such as Kirsty Wark, James Cook, Dani Garavelli, and Sarah Smith, as well as the alleged group referred to as the “alphabetties.”
Your attention to these matters is crucial for ensuring transparency and accountability.
BLOW THE LID ON THE CORRUPTION IN SCOTLAND UNDER NICOLA STURGEON THE JUDAS.
THANK YOU.
DEAR BERNARD PONSONBY.
DRAIN THE LOCH.
BANNOCKBURN. STOP THE SALE OF THE HALLOWED TURF. GET PONSONBY ON THE PHONE.
GET ALEX SALMOND ON THE PHONE. SAVE BANNOCKBURN THE SPIRIT OF SCOTLAND.
Every legal source says exactly what you say. All yoons will lie the opposite.
We just need more people to wake up.Scotland has the right to self determination and the means to sustain it. We just need the will to go for it
MASSIE : I’ve got a good job – THE SYSTEM WORKS …
You are right ‘absolutely nothing is happening..’
Massie has no respect. He isn’t interested in entertaining what he calls separatist movements. He’s happily smug in his Britishness. Discounting the obvious 4 nations make up.
Ponsonby light years ahead as a commentator and analyst.
Our problem to solve is that both equate the movement with the SNP. One target is easy to hit and Massie, more than Ponsonby, is playing up to that. The obfuscation from Massie is tedious.
What’s clear is that Ponsonby wiped the floor with Massie.
You’d think with the recent high profile case that’s just gone through the ICJ/UN that yoons don’t get to dictate who has a right to self determination & who doesn’t & they don’t get to dictate terms, impose conditions or seek another countries permission either.
These anti democratic pish artists should be challenged daily. Colonisers are fascists. He doesn’t even see Scotland as a country. It’s a possession. He’d be better suited to GB news.
As for Ponsonby – I’ve always found to be a fair commentator. He knows his brief & doesn’t appear biased during election nights. He’d be better to have the podcast on his own lol.
“To develop friendly relations among nations” the Nation here being the United Kingdom I would say.
“respect for the principle of equal rights and self determination of peoples”. The people here being the British. Hope that clears things up for Calum @6.20pm
There is a massive difference between the capacity of Holyrood to hold a referendum, and the capacity of the Scottish people to hold a referendum. They are not the same thing!
The first is a Vichy Assembly, a parish council, codified by Westminster’s Scotland Act rulebook, and thus presumeably answerable to its Westminster “superior”.
The latter however, the people of Scotland, DO NOT answer to Westminster, but are themselves sovereign in LAW throughout the realm of Scotland.
It comes as no surprise, indeed it is fairly predictable, that Westminsters puppet Holyrood Assembly answers to Westminster’s colonial Scotland Act, which will be upheld by Westminster’s Mickey Mouse “Supreme” Court.
NONE of the above, neither Westminster, Holyrood, or the UK Supreme Court can squeeze a cigarette paper between the Sovereign people of Scotland and their Constitutional Sovereignty.
They CANNOT change any Law or Constitution which isn’t theirs to change!
This whole fkg narrative about the legality of a referendum is tedious beyond endurance because it’s a wholly disingenuous script designed to perpetuate Scotland’s continual indoctrination; an absolute scandal which Scottish politicians are simply to DUMB to recognise.
There was a time when Holyrood represented something worth fighting for, back when the Institution of Holyrood was codified by Westminster White Sovereignty, but the Members elected to sit in that Chamber were delegates elected by the Red Sovereignty of the people, and clouded ambiguity reigned supreme.
That irreconcilable paradox could have been resolved in Scotland’s favour, with Scotland’s sovereign delegates trumping Westminster’s unconstitutional and non-sovereign misadventure into the Realm of Sovereign Scotland.
Hovever that boat has now sailed since the abject cowardice and ineptitude of Sturgeon’s feckless SNP dunces conceded that Holyrood sits in the shadow of the Scotland Act and can can only do what it’s told.
Is there NOBODY in the Nation of Scotland capable of articulating this message to the Scottish people? Fk me. Somebody change the fkg record.
What Westminster makes, Westminster can break. Holyrood is their shitty wee colonial bridgehead infiltrating into the Realm of Scotland, and they can pull its wings off on a whim. It is theirs.
What the Scottish people make, Westminster CANNOT break, because Westminster can’t fkg touch it, and is OBLIGED to respect as sovereign.
Jeez. Once you see it, you cannot un-see it.
“their true self-perceived nationalities”
Even before listening to this, Rev, I know intuitively that Professor Michael Hechter was right when he wrote about the ‘internal colonisation of Scotland’, our imposed ‘cultural division of labour’, and that:
“The landed classes in Scotland were anglicized, that is to say, they regarded themselves, and behaved, as if they were English.”
Such people may occasionally try to pass themselves of as Scots, but they clearly have no wish to be Scottish nationals, refusing their own national citizenship and preventing the rest of us from our right to have it. Such is the confused colonial mindset of the privileged culturally assimilated bourgeoisie in a colonial society:
https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2024/03/03/the-colonial-mindset/
I wrote a song about Alex Massie.
Its on the SIDCA bandcamp.
It still cracks me up.
and I made it.
Breeks @ 19.44.
And, right there, is exactly why I believe that Mr Salmond’s second biggest error of his entire political career (his first being to both resign as FM & endorse Ms Sturgeon as his successor) was to allow his ego to dictate his self aggrandizing ploy of renaming the Executive of our devolved administration a “Government” over the course of one weekend, with no open discussion on the matter.
So now we have an illusory “Government” fettered by matters reserved to Westminster.
Better by far to have accepted and fought against the true position, that we have what one of its originators (Mr Blair) more accurately described as a Parish Council. Or, as believers in colonial theory would I believe accept, a local administration acting on behalf of the true rulers.
Massie is such a Nepo baby. What has he ever done?
So we just have to ask a Red or a Blue Tory for permission? Then obviously we are a colony.
If Massie thinks he is Scottish he has been colonised.
And damn the Sturgeon’s SNP for putting us in this position!
Their argument, to my mind, highlights precisely why any pre independence referendum is a total waste of time and effort. The Baltic States, for example, held referendums after it had been established that people wanted independence from the stranglehold of the Soviet machine. Elections are, by far, the sensible way of determining a people’s wishes, with a ratifying referendum after independence or when the people’s wishes are clear in the election.
Gaining 56 out of 59 MPs, by the party of independence, was a clear mandate and it was the fault of the SNP that it did not take advantage of that by, for example, withdrawing its MPs from Westminster immediately. That was not the action of a genuine independence party, but of a clique at the top working for the British State.
I am always struck by the parallels between the fight for independence and the fight for female rights in Scotland, and the adamant refusal of ultra loyalist SNP to countenance the latter. The same deaf ear is turned to all logical, rational argument in favour of some airy-fairy GRB togetherness myth as it is to female arguments about the total illogicality and irrationality of TWAW. People who are invested in the myth will not admit that they are wrong or that they are standing in the way of sanity.
Once it has been established – and Salvo/Liberation intends to establish the fact in international law – that there are very clear constitutional pointers for just how deeply conned Scotland has been in relation to the false narrative of the Union, the combination of a positive election, plus international law should outweigh any opposition from Unionist self-interest, whatever the Supreme Court says, because the Supreme Court has never ruled on the Union or on the Treaty of Union, but has accepted the English version of them, the version that is fatally flawed.
It would be a huge step forward for Scotland if the SNP and Labour could genuinely ally with each other in Scotland’s interests, but Labour would have to ditch its Unionist stance first, and that is impossible to see right now. The SNP would have to ditch their SNP 1 & 2 strategy which could well arise again in 2026 (in order to capitalize on the List). Both are far too self-interested to care about achieving independence for Scotland.
Alex Massie is a Tory. It is perfectly possible to be a Tory and also be Scottish, and vice versa, but he is a dyed-in-the-wool Unionist to boot, so his allegiance lies elsewhere. He articulates the Scottish Unionist position, a deeply-flawed one, but just like the SNP ultras about female rights, he cannot admit that the myth is just that, a myth. Even the seemingly smartest people – they are not, it only seems that they are in a qualifications kind of way, but they lack any faculty for critical and logical thinking – fall prey to myths, whereas working-class people with few qualifications but a great deal of adverse lived experience recognize the inconsistencies. It is odd that Alex Massie acknowledges that TWAW is illogical nonsense, but cannot see through the Unionist myth.
It was interesting to watch, but whether or not the Scotland act can be changed or if it’s democratic for the bigger partner in the Union to have the only voice and all the power isn’t the real problem for Scotland. The problem is the SNP. Scotland’s biggest problem isn’t Westminster or the Scotland act its the strangle hold the SNP has on Independence and the constant abuse by the SNP to keep Scotland a prisoner in the Union for their own ends. Until we rid ourselves of our captor (the SNP) we’ll never move the constitutional question forward and the only way that can be achieved is by the death of the SNP as a party.
The Sooner it happens the better, but have no delusions Alex Salmond isn’t the answer to the SNP question, his career is finished and it was all done by the SNP and his so called friends.
Q (asked with gravitas) – So what are the conditions under which a vote on independence can be held?
A (reply in petulant childish manner) – I’m not telling you and I’m not putting anything in writing either because I’m British (ie we’ll stall it for as long as possible with outright lies (eg cue another GERS report), like we’ve always done because it’s to the UK elites (sic) benefit to do so.
The only neverendum is the fact that Westminster refuses to join the modern world.
ScottieDog @ 6:45 pm
“Yes, therein lies the difference between unionists and imperialists.”
Is there any difference? There was no ‘Union’, merely a worthless violated one-sided treaty obscuring the standard colonial hoax. Maist Scots noo ken it an aw.
Massie is of course totally correct.
The phrase “respect for equal rights and the principles of self-determination of peoples” is just the sort of vague, feel-good pap that the “UN Charter” is stuffed with. The language was proposed by the USSR and other third-world nations precisely BECAUSE they had no intention of having it applied to their own internal affairs. The USSR never applied it to their own constituent states, and notoriously did not have a polity founded on “equal rights.”
The language, if it has any force at all, is meant to govern “relations BETWEEN nations”–i.e., the foreign policy of one existing nation to another. As one expert has pointed out:
“no right is granted directly to a people to call on the United Nations to enforce these responsibilities. Instead, the Declaration is directed toward promoting friendly relations
and co-operation among states and was approved by the United Nations, an organization made up of states; therefore, the legal effect of the Declaration is directed toward states.” See https://digitalcommons.law.uga.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=2193&context=gjicl
From the same source: “Former
Secretary General U Thant remarked that the United Nations attitude toward separation of a section of a Member State based on the right of self determination is unequivocable:
“As an international organization, the United Nations has never accepted and does not accept and I do not believe it will ever accept the principle of secession of a part of its Member State.”
Th reckon people have forgotten how the SNP sabotaged Martin Keaton case and then hand the Supreme court all the bullets it needed to imprison Scotland and gave the authority to Westminster willingly without a fight.
Scotland isn’t a special case and isn’t some sort lucky country in the world that no other country in the world has such a relationship with its colonial masters, YES you will here this sort of shit from colonialist who believe Great Britain has been a force for good, well lets listen to all these Country’s who gained there Independence the story will be far different to the one the Unionist want to tell.
Alex Salmond is correct Westminster could have been forced into given Scotland a other referendum its just that the SNP used a section 30 process as a means of saying Westminster is to blame lets try again in another 5 years.
Peter Bell is going to start a new party, and here is where we can really make a difference simply because Sturgeon and Salmond I hope have no part in the party and if we all got behind this new party we could really make a difference and it would be a party without any baggage. Its time to unite as a one nation with one goal Independence and yes it can be done.
Lorna Campbell @8:03 pm
“It is odd that Alex Massie acknowledges that TWAW is illogical nonsense, but cannot see through the Unionist myth.”
Not that odd, Lorna, if we consider the ‘colonial mindset’ and its ‘defence mechanisms’ and how this all ‘works’. Remember that “colonization is based on psychology” (Cesaire):
https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2024/03/03/the-colonial-mindset/
Ach, maybe Ruth can have a word with Massie…
https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-simple-ruth/
But as that article was from 2016 and the clip was from 2011, and even with a mandate of the material change in circumstances with the EU vote result, and a “Nationalist” majority in Scottish Parliament it came to nowt.
So fuck aw these shitey bawbag cunty arsehole unionists endlessly dribbling their pish and denying Scotland its democracy and self-determination.
And what’s worse than aw these bullshitting yoons is that the meek subservient skittery skidmark of brain dead Scots jist continue to accept this situation.
I reckon a scientist could hook up a half done 1.5 volt AA battery to a hunk of spam and create an organism that had more cerebral activity and cognitive thought in matters political than yer average Scot.
As con-jobs go, the favoured, positivist reading of Westminster’s sovereignty over Scotland takes some beating. Fair-play to those Salvo people for bothering themselves to go snooping around amongst the documented evidence and extracting the facts from what must be the flimsiest of all imperialist fabrications, ever!
Massie is a sniveling wee weasel
The secretary of state can recommend a referendum but the secretary of state is appointed by London with no regard to how Scotland votes.
Listening to this stuff is absolute torture.
I can’t stand it!
Scotland is a colony and transwomen are men.
Sven
Ignored
says:
31 July, 2024 at 8:01 pm
Breeks @ 19.44.
And, right there, is exactly why I believe that Mr Salmond’s second biggest error…. was to allow his ego to dictate his self aggrandizing ploy of renaming the Executive of our devolved administration a “Government” over the course of one weekend, with no open discussion on the matter.
I don’t agree with you, but I say so constructively.
I think Salmond knew the Constitutional reality all along, and while yes, he agreed to the Edinburgh Agreement etc. etc… I think Salmond was playing the Establishment for effect, because he knew he had the Ace of Trumps, sovereignty, up his sleeve the whole time. He could agree to anything because sovereignty was his catch-all safety net. Scotland is sovereign, not Salmond, and well he knew it.
I think Salmond knows full well the Union has a kill-switch, but he also knows all Hell breaks loose the moment it’s thrown. He doesn’t want a shitstorm, he wants a calm and orderly transition to Independence once the argument has been won emphatically and the Union hasn’t a leg to stand on. He’s a better man than me.
Furthermore, with regard to calling Holyrood a Government, I believe that was Salmond attempting to assert Scotland’s Red sovereignty. He anticipated the day when Holyrood would be obliged to show it’s and and choose it’s master; and be the government of the sovereign people, or the Vichy Assembly of Scotland’s colonisers. A “Government” is the language of Red Sovereignty.
Salmond had done everything necessary to win. He just didn’t see the Redcoat snake in Sturgeon, and she razed everything he built to the ground.
Is that a weakness in Salmond? Possibly, but that seems harsh. If it was, it seems a forgivable error, because Sturgeon certainly wasn’t capable of a betrayal on this scale by herself. Sturgeon is a fiction. Sturgeon is a puppet with her strings being pulled by a greater and unseen malevolence.
Sturgeon herself is weak; therefore no threat signature appeared on Salmond’s radar. That’s how it was done.
I honestly don’t know why people get triggered by Salmond’s ego. In all sincerity I don’t see it. He’s not on any ego trip, but unswerving in his determination to free Scotland and see our Nation thrive. Read the man, not the enemy’s propaganda, or Sturgeon’s shit stirring muck.
For me, Alex Salmond is that man; scorned and covered with scars, who still strove with his last ounce of courage to reach the unreachable stars -Don Quixote. (Though Andy Williams probably sang it better).
And the world will be better for this… seeing an Independent Scotland back where it belongs.
@ 100%
Is Peter Bell’s “new” Party idea not a jist another pop up Party and cunning plan. Like Alba was.
ISP (and AFI) could see what was happening years ago and took the initiative. Why can’t folk work to reach a consensus with what was already up and running instead of adding further division confusion and dilution of votes.
I guess some egos are predisposed to not being able to accept any other view or path than their own. Aye, even though it’s their favourite colour it’s jist not quite their favourite tint of a shade of that colour on the pantone colour chart. Unity with uncompromising individuals? Don’t make me laugh.
In many ways it’s a comfort – if that’s all they have in their arsenal. If only we had an SNP fit for purpose
The baltic states received independence because it suited the yanks to recognise them so they could quickly install a puppet, NATO, a huge chunk of free real estate, a military base pointing at Ruskie & one up on their arch nemesis.
The more you follow geopolitical news the more it becomes obvious the games the Anglo yanks play & the interference they do in every single government around the globe to protect their interests. The SNP was ripe for the turning. Sturgeon eager to please her handlers to wreck any notions of Indy – probably on the promise she’d be well rewarded. We should’ve dumped her in 2017 when she lost 21 seats (many did) & the party should have challenged her as leader.
Scotland – Englands cash cow that’ll never be allowed to just walk out the door. Even if by some miracle we ever did we’d never get fcking peace to enjoy it. There’s no cure for greedy barstewards – they’ll always covet someone else’s resources.
A new world order is on the way. One that will soon ostracise these roasters out of their countries & off the world stage altogether. NATO is a sham & the G7 don’t amount to fck all in practice to be running their mouth.
In the immortal words of Chewing the Fat.
Good Guy.
Wank.
Breeks @ 21.07.
Fair enough, Breekster, we just read this one differently is all. To make my own position re Mr Salmond clear, I’ve posted before and still believe that he is the outstanding politician of his generation. I just believe he was wrong in misnaming a devolved administration as a “government”. All he has achieved by that, my view, is to foster the illusion that Scotland has powers and responsibilities which it does not.
And, honestly, I certainly have no problem at all with folk having the same destination in view having varying opinions en route. Our differing thoughts on Mr Salmond’s renaming the Executive don’t amount to a hill of beans in the context of where we are now and what we want for Scotland. And, honesty compels me to admit that I’m not always correct.
I hope you enjoyed your short break Stu. Yes absolutely nothing has happened in Scottish Politics. Except the realisation of the SNP new position of no HoC committees. Even poor Pete Slippers has lost his Chair, incumbent since eons ago but the still the SNP don’t have an awareness of their current situation. Continuing with the same strategy and tactics. Sitting besides the DUP and Greens as a total irrelevant force.
I must have been watchin a different interview.
Listening to these two is precisely why I hate Scottish politics.
Wings: “Scots are a people, and are plainly not in possession of “self-determination” if their preferred constitutional arrangements depend upon the permission of another people (or peoples).”
I made the case for the international law route based on self determination the other day. It wasn’t very well received but I think in Scotland’s case the argument is even more compelling than the UN charter requires because, after all, it is clear that the Scots represent something very close to a nation as it is and, to my mind at least, that “something” is more than a “mere” people (which for me is a rather nebulous concept).
Ponsonby might have pointed that out and put Massie in the awkward position of having to either deny Scotland already existed as a nation or accept it, in which case everything he said about secession would be voided.
The clue to everything is in the name ‘Treaty of Union’. Scotland wasn’t annexed, it entered into a treaty and a treaty is an agreement between states.
“Scotland’s biggest problem isn’t Westminster or the Scotland Act its the strangle hold the SNP has on Independence and the constant abuse by the SNP to keep Scotland a prisoner in the Union for their own ends.”
It’s not just the SNP though; the problem is all of Scotland’s MPs, because they refuse to understand that they are not formally obliged to defer to England’s MPs on ANY matter of the Union’s governance, because nothing agreed in the founding documents of the Union requires them to, and nothing in those documents agreed the use of the single flat vote in the Commons either. It’s that flat vote that gives England’s massive MP numbers the actual means to ‘outvote’ Scotland’s MPs.
As far as the Treaty is concerned, that flat vote is ultra vires and unlawful because neither of the two kingdoms agreed to it, and Scotland’s own sovereignty means it isn’t subject to any English authority anyway.
The same criticism applies to England’s MPs as well, because they also should understand that the formal basis of their ‘presumed’ entitlement to set aside the decisions of the Scottish half of the Union simply doesn’t exist.
The Treaty does NOT require Scotland to be the junior partner in the Union, and neither does anything else.
The other thing that is driving me nuts is the ‘Paris Olympic Boxing controversy.
Every single one of our politicians believes transwomen are women and if you believe transwomen are women they must believe if’s fine for a transwoman (a man) to fight another women in the boxing ring in the Olympics.
Every time I hear about this ‘Paris Olympic Boxing controversy’ I think of Nicola Sturgeon, Alex Cole Hamilton and all the politicians at Holyrood who are so keen on self-id.
It’s not just them who are responsible it’s every politician who supports the GRA 2004 which allows for men to go into a boxing ring with a woman.
That means every politician in the UK including those who are described as the ‘good guys’
Scotland is a colony and transwomen are men
Amazed at all these anti British/English people who still go abroad on their British passport and moan about independence on an English website. Even saying the rich Scots are too English to be Scottish. So funny. Sadly the election showed another referendum at this time would not change from the last outcome.
Surely its not ‘Yoon thinking’, its the thinking of people – the people of Scotland – who are perfectly happy and pleased to be part of the UK – as demonstrated by the result of the 2014 referendum.
To call them ‘Yoons’ rather than Scots, in such a derogatory way, achieves nothing but division. About time division was in the past.
I don’t think leaving out an SNP/Labour coalition as a possibility is really an omission, given that these two parties hate each other so much they make the Israelis and Palestinians look chummy.
The big BBC interview. Jane Hill wearing a scarf in the form of a Hijab. Encapsulated the view of the BBC. No report of the Downing Street protest. However they protected a nonce for months and they wonder why the people are agitated.
Massie looks the type to let you fuck his wife.
– as long as he can watch
pumping the baldy half incher, sitting in the corner, thinking himself part of the action
he tried to get into cambridge like his dad, and they knocked him back, twice. Which shows his inferiority – he is not and never will be a PROPER FULL ENGLISH, he is 3/4 at best, and the best he can do is spend the rest of his worthless life sucking on anglo cock to prove his worth.
Geri @ 9:18 pm
“The baltic states received independence because it suited the yanks”
All the more reason to speak nicely to fellow Scotsman, President Trump, and ignore whatever eejit bides in 10 Downing Street.
Mel
Yoons = unionists. Shortened due to Twitter limit. Not derogatory at all. No worse than nats..
& Democracy didn’t end in 2014.
I’d also question if they’re really happy as most I’ve came across are pissed they didn’t get Devo max, near federalism, EU membership or the right to vote again.
Massie, if I remember, moved his inlaws to Skye.
Maybe it was to watch them too lol!
ruby, there are weight divisions in boxing, so it is less unequal than you might think. Female boxers can always punch the trannies in the willy.
– why are women boxing anyway?
I thought all the fashionable people were trying to get it banned?
In medieval times, men would sometimes fight women in public to settle disputes – both armed with clubs, but the man would be in a hole 3 feet deep, to make it an even match.
Sounds like a great idea for a new olympic event. Would watch.
Alf
Aye, I’d agree but then I look at Biden. Who’d have thought an Irish man would be into famine, geno-cide & illegal occupation but there he was backing it.
They’re all bought & sold as their congress demonstrated last week. They don’t even hide it anymore, along with the EU, that they’re not elected to serve the plebs.
I agree tho, issuing insults & removing his ambassador title wasn’t the brightest idea from a country seeking it’s independence. She had zero deplomacy skills. Now it’s her that’s the knt lol
The last throw of the dice?
So it happens – the majority of Scots have exercised their right of self determination and declared Scotland’s independence.
Scotland now seeks the recognition of the rest of the world as an independent sovereign state, including by applying to the UN as a Member.
That takes us from Article 1 (2) of the UN Charter and brings us to Article 27 (3) of the UN Charter which establishes that all substantive decisions of the Council must be made with “the concurring votes of the permanent members”.
Article 27 (3) establishes that any of the 5 permanent members of the Security Council has a veto power – a veto power including over who does and does not become a member of the UN.
The UK is one of those 5 permanent members – with that veto power.
The UK, for so so many reasons cannot afford to lose Scotland! So will that veto power be – the last throw of the dice?
That question forms part of the Declaration of a Sovereign Scot initiative, and its contact for now over 3 years with the UN Secretarat, and 18 UN Member States.
You’re joking Ruby?
The transgender boxer that beat up the woman is terrible. I didn’t know that was allowed. I thought they banned this after the failed male weight lifter a few years ago.
I can’t believe this. But then I can because we know that the French hate the last Supper don’t they? They mocked the last supper that Jesus Christ – the Price of Peace and ever lasting Saviour of the Christian Values West – had with his disciples.
Including the bisexual disciple – “the disciple that jesus loved” – not that the woke left would ever understand!
I watched the triathalon on the French roads. It was worse than the fate bestowed to Princess Diana. Paris is a shitehole. I thought the roads were in Ukraine. If Valdamir Putin rolled up with his tanks to watch that, he’d have thought the place had already been bombed.
The transgender boxer is male on female violence. It’s terrible they want us to see that.
Almost as bad as the state of the French roads in the triathlon and the green river.
If p-utin was watching he’d have probably mistaken Paris for Kiev. He’d have thought his missles had gone off target.
The French of course hate Jesus Christ – the Prince of Peace and ever lasting saviour as well – when they mocked the Last Supper.
So we shouldn’t be surprised that they want to see women beaten up.
The French Hate Jesus – bisexual Jesus Christ in my opinion – “the disciple that jesus loved.”
The French mocked the Last supper. They hate Christian values of Jesus and his disciples. Of Humility. Love. And sacrifice.
Seeing a woman being beaten up by a male should do the trick eh?
Alf: not even the Americans could have stopped the Baltic States from taking their independence. Granted, NATO and American bases became a form of security against putative Russian aggression.
However, the Soviets never did consider the Baltic States to be Russian as such, whereas the Russians do think of at least part, if not all, of Ukraine as Russian, and, indeed, it was at one time, and NATO there would have been a step too far.
The Americans would eventually have sited nuclear missiles there. A smart Ukrainian leader would have played both sides and kept his country intact as far as possible. Putin, I think, would have accepted a Ukraine still, as an ally, even if it had grown closer to Europe, but not if it invited in NATO.
I agree that, in the end, our independence will have some input from the Americans, whether we like it or not, and accepting that could work for us if we learn to be politically smart, engage with our huge American diaspora and ensure that it’s a light touch and not a heavy hand. America is instinctively isolationist. It might interfere with others, but it does so reluctantly and only when it feels itself to be threatened – much like Russia. Neither wants an all-out global conflict, when proxy wars on the territory of others works much better.
When Jesus Christ – the prince of peace and ever lasting saviour – nailed himself to the cross so that we may have eternal life through him!
He didn’t expect transwoman to be punching women in the face in the name of Olympic sport.
One thing’s for sure “The Lord detests differing weights, and dishonest scales do not please him.”
Geri @ 10:52 pm
“Aye, I’d agree but then I look at Biden.”
Trump sure aint no Biden wokey koky. A’ll tak leeberation ony wey it comes. ‘King Donald’ if he maks it happen tae.
We are entering uncharted waters. Scotland was an imaginary independent state now it’s not.
Confused
Ignored
says:
31 July, 2024 at 10:39 pm
ruby, there are weight divisions in boxing, so it is less unequal than you might think. Female boxers can always punch the trannies in the willy.
– why are women boxing anyway?
I don’t know anything about boxing but then I don’t think you do either. I’m pretty sure punching someone in the willy is against the rules.
Do you not think women should be boxing?
Oh aye I remember now you are one of the good old boys of Wings BTL who thinks a woman’s place is in the kitchen.
The point I was making wasn’t whether men should be fighting women in the boxing ring it was if you have a law that men can change sex and become women then you can’t complain when these men want to compete in women’s sport where they always have an advantage due to male puberty & testosterone.
I expect all the creepy misogynistic pervs will be watching a woman getting pummeled by man in the boxing ring with great joy.
PS Why are men boxing anyway?
Is it a sex thing? A bit of homo-erotic sadomasochism?
Trump has pissed off black America tonight. Is Kalama Harris Indian or is she Black?
He’s gone full Ali G. Ahahaha!
Is she Indian or is she black? Asks Trump
I suspect the American media outlets will be adjusting the contrast on their television cameras in the days and weeks ahead. And when you finally see Kalama in person – you’ll think she’s suffering from the same skin pigmentation disorder as Michael Jackson – when in fact nothing will have changed…
New Education Secretary Bridget Phillipson shelves legal protections for university free speech:
« The implementation of a new law to ensure universities protect and promote free speech has been abruptly halted by the new Education Secretary.
« Just days before it was due to come into effect, Bridget Phillipson told the House of Commons that she had decided to “stop further commencement” of the Higher Education (Freedom of Speech) Act 2023.
« Phillipson, who is considering repealing the legislation altogether, said she would confirm her long-term plans “as soon as possible”.
« Explaining the decision, the Department for Education said: “The Act requires universities,?colleges?and students’ unions in England to take steps to ensure lawful freedom of speech on campus.”
« However, it claimed, “there is widespread concern about the negative impact of the Act from vulnerable groups” and fears that it would expose higher education providers “to costly legal action”.
« Human Rights expert Akua Reindorf KC expressed shock at Phillipson’s announcement, saying: “The Act was not perfect, but it’s quite evident that free speech and academic freedom are in peril in universities.” »
https://www.christian.org.uk/news/education-secretary-shelves-legal-protections-for-uni-free-speech/
I’m only joking* How ridiculous American politics continues to be.
« Let us take the case of the Nazi State. No sooner did Hitler take power (or, as we should perhaps more accurately say, no sooner was power given to him) than, on February 28, he proclaimed the Decree for the Protection of the People and the State, which suspended the articles of the Weimar Constitution concerning Personal liberties. The decree was never repealed, so that from a juridical standpoint the entire Third Reich can be considered a “state of exception” that lasted twelve years.
« In this sense, modern totalitarianism can be defined as the establishment, by means of the state of exception, of a legal civil war that allows for the physical elimination not only of political adversaries but of entire categories of citizens who for some reason cannot be integrated into the political system. Since then, the voluntary creation of a permanent state of emergency (though perhaps not declared in the technical sense) has become one of the essential practices of contemporary states, including so-called democratic ones.
« Faced with the unstoppable progression of what has been called a “global civil war”, the state of exception tends increasingly to appear as the dominant paradigm of government in contemporary politics.This transformation of a provisional and exceptional measure into a technique of government threatens radically to alter—in fact, has already palpably altered—the structure and meaning of the traditional distinction between constitutional forms. Indeed, from this perspective, the state of exception appears as a threshold of indeterminacy between democracy and absolutism.
(Giorgio Agamben, STATE OF EXCEPTION, University of Chicago Press, 2005, p 2)
I have long maintained that Scotland’s liberation depends on victory in two different but inseperable battles. There is, of course, the battle to end the Union and restore Scotland’s rightful constitutional status. Prior to that, however, we face the battle to secure the means by which we might exercise our right of self-determination.
The British state is not at present denying our right of self-determination. What they are doing is impeding – by various methods – our access to a procedure by which we can exercise that right. This is unlawful, as Stu Campbell points out. But it is not widely recognised as being unlawful because the British state disguises the fact that it is preventing the exercise of our right of self-determination by the pretence that there is inadequate demand and/or that ‘circumstances outwith their control’ make it inadvisable at the moment. Now is not the time!
The British state is aided in this charade by the ease with which Scots’ – conditioned by centuries of subordinacy and learned helplessness – are persuaded that Westminster’s consent and cooperation is a prerequisite of an opportunity to choose Scotland’s constitutional status and the form of government which best serves our needs, priorities and aspirations.
Scotland’s own political elite has colluded in this deception, insisting that any vote on independence must be “legal and constitutional”. Therein lies our ‘Catch-22’. As a nation and a people, we have been deceived into supposing our ability to exercise what is arguable the most fundamental human right is dependent on the means of doing so being “legal and constitutional” in term of a legal and constitutional framework that has evolved under the influence of England-as-Britain’s imperative to preserve the Union.
This situation is nonsensical, of course. But it allows a charade of democracy and respect for human right which is sufficient for the British state’s purposes.
The reality behind this charade is a constitutional arrangement whereby Scotland’s people are effectively denied a basic human right. We are prevented from exercising our right of self-determination. We are prevented from choosing the constitutional status of our nation. We are prevented from choosing our own government. Scotland never gets the government it votes for. We sometimes coincidentally vote for the same government as England does. But under the Union we cannot get the government we vote for simply because we vote for it. We always get the government England votes for.
The existence of the Scottish Parliament merely disguises the situation, giving us the impression that we are voting for our own government. It is true that we vote for it. But it is not true that it is a government in the generally accepted sense of that term. It is a truncated and constrained and infantalised sham of government.
The great irony is that the Scottish Parliament has impeccable democratic legitimacy. Westminster has none! So, we have a Parliament which is perfectly democratically legitimate, but which cannot provide us with a proper national government. It is prevented from doing so ultimately by the Union.
A new party is being launched for the purpose of introducing into the discourse around the constitutional issue arguments which highlight the grotesquely anomalous nature of our constitutional circumstances and proposes a means of rectifying matter. The New Scotland Party is being formed with the stated aim of restoring Scotland’s independence and establishing a modern democratic republic.
This new party is the first to set out the process by which the people of Scotland can at last accesss the means to exercise our human right of self-determination. This process involves laying bare the reality of our colonial status under the Union. It begins with the Scottish Parliament asserting its legislative competence in all matters relation to the constitution on the basis of its democratic legitimacy as the Parliament directly elected by the sovereign people of Scotland and on the primary ground that this is the only way the people of Scotland can be enabled to exercise our right of self-determination.
Thus, the constitutional issue becomes a human rights issue and, should the UK government choose to mount a legal challenge, it would be transparently an effort to circumscribe our human rights.
New Scotland Party is not yet fully formed. When it is, it will be Scotland’s party of national liberation.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/newscotlandparty
On the previous thread, Dan said why do we just accept things, why is there no agitation, no resistance.
Maybe this has answers.
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/psychologylse/2021/01/19/why-we-dont-rebel/
Scared of risk.
Lack of leadership.
Lack of hope.
System justification. The belief that the present economic and political state is fair and legitimate.
Bias to the status quo. “Ultimately, as Hofstede once observed, “authority survives only where it is matched by obedience.” I suspect that the social media type of activism in which you talk, but don’t act also goes to bolster the status quo.”
All good points. Credit to Sven and Geri at various points in this thread.
It is true – that ALL moral and lawful campaigns depended on support from the other side. Women would NEVER have gotten the vote if men hadn’t eventually agreed with them that, their right to vote was valid in a progressive and dynamic UK. They also didn’t want to be last in the list of countries that had granted votes to women before the UK.
And so it is with independence. Our enemy is the Anglo State AND the U.S. What a combination. Both want us to stay a pliable, weak spined colony. Because it benefits them.
Neither will EVER agree that they’ve been unfair to us all these centuries. Neither will ever see the error of their ways. The US will never give up their nukes in Europe and WM will never give up their cash cow.
Salmond wanted a smooth transition? A waste of time.
Scotland might regain its independence – but it will be through disobedience, violence and destruction in both Scotland and England. Then the world’s countries will take a side and argue with each other about rights and morals etc.
That’s the only way it’s gonna go.
Scots’ right of self determination is basic, fundamental. It is not up for debate. It is true for us same as anyone on the earth.
I actually get pissed off hearing these ‘arguments’. Why even entertain them. It only gives wallopers like Massie credibility.
The only reason these arguments are currently entertained and tolerated, it seems to me, is that support for independence is not a majority.
As soon as that happens and it is consistent and statistically well beyond the margin of error. Then all these pish arguments will melt like snow off a dyke.
Instead of all these endless arguments about constitutional mechanisms etc folk should just be making the case for independence.
No one is talking about it anymore. So support for it flatlines. Sooner or later, if no one grasps that nettle again, it will go into decline.
We have got to break the mainstream media monopoly, lessons could be learned from Trump on this. Go after them call them liars, fake news. Stop trying to be bloody friends with everyone. They are such vile disgusting hypocrites this would resonate with the general public.
We need a new approach, I am not sure what exactly but this one ain’t working. We are all far too fucking nice for my tastes.
Everyone on this planet recognises and despises the ‘Anglo-sneer’.
Coming from a Oxbridge don or Whitehall mandarin it’s only to be expected. But coming from a Scot it’s abhorrent.
Nicola Sturgeon has taught us one thing… very clearly. Putting all our eggs into one political basket (e.g. the SNP) is a very bad idea. Too easy to infiltrate and subvert. In fact you are asking for it…
The future is to have a politically well distributed independence movement. With a basket of different parties representing different demographics of the independence movement. That ‘internal market’ within the independence movement is absolutely key going forward.
Having a right of centre, a centre and a left of centre, however you want to frame the political spectrum or sphere, set of independence supporting parties is a necessary first step to becoming independent.
You want that in place first, not some monolithic uniparty like the SNP. That is a very unhealthy situation democratically speaking especially immediately after independence is achieved.
All we need to concentrate on is shifting support for YES, everything else is an illusion. MPs, MSPs, what difference does any of that make now. They are just going to ignore us, they already are.
The independence movement should be distributed and we should welcome it, and the so should its media. Just create our own. No reliance on any one individual. The means to do it are readily available.
Peter A Bell @ 6:39 am
“As a nation and a people, we have been deceived into supposing our ability to exercise what is arguable the most fundamental human right is dependent on the means of doing so being “legal and constitutional” in term of a legal and constitutional framework that has evolved under the influence of England-as-Britain’s imperative to preserve the Union.”
Yes, this is the deceit the Scottish establishment including the SNP has joined in with and prolonged, and which has now created the rupture in the movement.
Postcolonial theory (Fanon) predicts this rupture and the split we see between the so-called ‘legal tendency’ in the movement (i.e. an SNP that is wholly dependent on the goodwill of the colonial power, which never materializes of course), and what is termed the ‘illegal tendency’.
Peter Bell is right, as is Salvo and Liberation.Scot, that this is also the point when the ‘independence movement’ becomes a ‘national liberation movement’, focusing on self-determination as a fundamental human right in international law, as opposed to the dominant national party’s failed dependence on the ‘endless goodness’ of an alien oppressor power and its imposed imperialist legal straitjacket.
However, the process of securing self-determination is not necessarily dependent on any existing parliament operating under colonial authority, nor any political party.
https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/08/22/determinants-of-independence-self-determination/
The reality is the SNP had their ‘defacto referendum’ on 4 July and got comprehensively humped. It is likely they are going to be humped again in 2026 under Swinney’s uninspired ‘leadership’. If the Scottish people were so desperate for independence, they could have voted Green or Alba if they couldn’t bring themselves to vote SNP. They didn’t. It remains to be seen if Labour will be able to form an administration on their own in 2026, but I think it would would be very unlikely they would join forces with the SNP. Unless the SNP start dealing with the real concerns of the Scottish people, they’ll be toast. Anyway, it’s academic. The constitutional question is dead for at least the length of the current UK parliament, and probably much longer.
@ Ruby
I watched footage of that revolting kid-on female – Imane Khelif pummelling HIS – actual female – opponent . Horrible ; no different from witnessing a scene of brutal male-on-female violence in any other scenario but consistent with the perversion of everything of value by the new religion of Hyper Narcissism : as * celebrated * in the Olympics Opening Ceremony’s * Woke * bacchanal tableau . Joke Bacchanal – minus the humour .
How predictable the fat burd who was the * centrepiece * of the * show * is now claiming victimhood & compensation – LOL . Did anyone force her to take part ?
I’ll ask again ….why are female athletes condoning this with their participation ?
I’ll add this time …..why are male athletes condoning this with their silence on the issue ?
Why is ANYONE condoning this ? The fact that this aberration is happening at all , let alone being championed as some kind of * victory * for D.I.E , is more evidence of the sickness that is poisoning the West .
The inevitable – and predicted – backlash is coming . It won’t be pretty : nor ” brave ” , nor ” stunning ” .
It may be a necessary corrective to the malign , deleterious societal effects of the last , say , 20 years of this promoted lunacy ; but the people coordinating the backlash will not , themselves , be great exemplars of fair-minded , rational , freedom-loving/defending Politics , but will use the Public’s evident disgust and anger on the issue to further their own agendas .
So a big round of applause to all the idiot gyrating monkeys in the SNP/Labour/Green/LibDem/Tory(covertly) Parties , Bellend Catatonia , Twee Ginger Poodle , the Notional , Largely Riddochulous et al who’ve done SO much to fuck-up our country specifically and aid the cause of societal breakdown more widely
When’s the next LGBFU Award Ceremony ? This time , rather than receiving a prize ( a dildo with Hilarious Clinton’s head carved on the business end ) Stoogeon should be presenting one : and who more deserving than that shining example of the modern day Olympics motto – STUPIDER . WEIRDER . SICKER – perv pugilist Imane Khelif – acclaimed Beater of Women and inspiration to cowardly , cheating , bullies everywhere .
Bernard Ponsonby is not a ‘brilliant man’ as asserted by David Hannah. Bernard Ponsonby stood as a Liberal Candidate against Jim Sillars in Govan. He is a closet colonial.
‘Brilliance’ and ‘Liberal Democrat’ are mutually exclusive.
I think one thing that could be done now which would significantly help the independence movement post SNP collapse (we are only waiting for the second shoe to drop at Holyrood now) is to create a virtual hub primarily (but not solely) dedicated to it.
This would be somewhere where all the different factions of the independence movement could meet (virtually) and post their own content, their own media, and promote the case for independence from their own perspectives. You could post topics, host debates, conduct polls, and completely side step places like the BBC.
The challenge would be getting take off velocity upon launch. IMHO that is where somewhere like wings could really help. He’s has already got the reach… and the respect.
If it took off it would solve a lot of our current problems. (But create some new ones for sure.)
Scots can’t agree on the colour of shite. Time to embrace that characteristic and make it into a strength. Let’s start having these arguments, in public, loudly.
None of that is what brought us together in the first place so why keep it under wraps. We are united by independence but for a whole host of different reasons and motives.
From an internal independence perspective the hub itself would have to be neutral, neither aligned to the left, right, whatever.
I think we are all a bit too ‘ohhh don’t scare the horses’…
What happened on 2014 was something beyond just independence. It was about real change being offered for the first time in a long time. That is what really excited people and still does.
If only we start talking about it again and they can see and hear it. These are the challenges.
Build it and they will come.
ISP (that’s Independence for Scotland Party) article from July 26th.
Does this existing Party with a good clear easily understood name describing its intentions not look to be forging a path that others couldn’t reach a consensus with and work with rather than creating another Party.
https://www.isp.scot/the-road-less-travelled/
Folk being unable or unwilling to work with others with extremely similar ideas is why I’ve stated for years that the political Party route is handicapped and tainted.
That’s not to say there aren’t some genuine decent folk in Parties, it’s just that egos and even slight differences in outlooks are capable of being escalated and causing reputational damage resulting in poor electoral performance.
That’s why I feel non Party affiliated independent candidates genuinely representing their constituents is the way to go. Trouble is this route would require folk getting off their arses and actually putting in the considerable work in their local constituencies to reach and inform folk, rather than endlessly posting away on wee social media political bubbles which only a minuscule proportion of the electorate are aware of and read.
@ sam at 7:00 am
That’s an interesting article touching on the subject of social media activism actually being a hurdle for effecting change for the reasons I’ve just stated above.
The Sturgeon SNP are like a pillow over the face of the independence movement.
Being able to silence people and stifle free speech within the independence movement was a huge enabler for her abuses of power.
We can’t ever put ourselves into that situation again as the same will happen again.
We have to build up something that is not contained in one person, one party, one leader, something that can ‘take on a life of its own’, something that comes from all of us and which therefore can’t be stopped, because if one of us falls, is corrupted, no matter.
Being distributed is a protection but also a weakness, which is why you also need a focal point. We totally lack it right now. Just dozens of isolated blogs and small parties (who mostly don’t speak to each other) being successfully ignored (and smeared) by the MSM.
Something has got to change here, someone has got to come up with a new approach. What have we got to lose that we have not already lost?
@Dan
Yes! we need ti be doing
All of that stuff applies at different times.
I think we need a leader or leaders. Not sure I see one.
Alf, Iain Matheson who does research into internal colonialism in the Highlands, Sir Harry Burns, former Scottish Chief medical Officer whose modus operandi is “proceed untilnapprehended”, Mike Hudson. American economist?
“The phrase “respect for equal rights and the principles of self-determination of peoples” is just the sort of vague, feel-good pap that the “UN Charter” is stuffed with. The language was proposed by the USSR and other third-world nations precisely BECAUSE they had no intention of having it applied to their own internal affairs. The USSR never applied it to their own constituent states, and notoriously did not have a polity founded on “equal rights.””
And yet, the USSR is no more and most of its component parts are now independent nations.
What we need (in other words) is an ‘open source’ independence movement. Fully transparent.
And technology I think can offer us solutions here. We can replicate the role of the SNP and make it far better than it ever was or could be.
What was the role of the SNP? It was a banner under which very diverse people could unite to achieve one common goal that they all believed to be of such importance that it outranked all their other differences.
We can replicate that (online) and take it to a whole new level. Sidestep party politics completely.
The internal governance of the SNP should have been set-up as a model for how Scotland would have been governed post-YES.
So first step is to do that with whatever vehicle we select to replace the SNP. It has to be open, fair, honest, fully transparent and founded on hard facts and logic. Open source.
The truth is there is a lot of bad blood out there created by Sturgeon and all of that needs to be resolved. If the truth and the whole truth came out that would be a big step in the right direction.
Remington Blastcap
Ignored
says:
31 July, 2024 at 8:00 pm
I wrote a song about Alex Massie.
Its on the SIDCA bandcamp.
It still cracks me up.
and I made it.
You made it? Here is the link. 😉
“I’m massie. qt will bend to my face chat”
from ELBOW HOCHLE: lockdown stuff by SIDCA
https://sidca.bandcamp.com/track/im-massie-qt-will-bend-to-my-face-chat
Peter A Bell @6.39am.
Excellent comment Peter – doesn’t it say somewhere in the UN’s Charter on Decolonisation that the country that the people are trying to free themselves from – that, that countries (in this case the English parliament) laws can play no part in the process.
In other words – Westminster cannot set the rules on, or partake in any way, when we decide to vote to leave the illegal union.
That would mean the true roadblock to indy is our ain politicians who know this – but want the status quo kept intact.
Oneliner
Ignored
says:
1 August, 2024 at 8:53 am
Bernard Ponsonby stood as a Liberal Candidate against Jim Sillars in Govan. He is a closet colonial.
Be fair Oneliner!
That was waay back when the LibDems told everyone all the time that they wanted Scotland to be part of a FEDERAL UNITED KINGDOM and we are all EUROPEAN.
That was a different time.
The LibDems were never anywhere near getting into power for a couple of generations and could always try to be all things to all people, depending on what constituency they were contesting.
Before the Nick Clegg coalition era and the party then revealed just how right wing they were (or had become).
A great many people (rightly or wrongly) perceived them as the moderate party in the middle neither Tory nor Labour (who used to be left wing and Socialist).
From todays perspective that sounds like a foreign country!
INDEPENDENCE is an intellectual state of mind, akin to being a conscious rebel or non conformist.
Conformists, lacking imagination, tend to gravitate to the herd instincts of party politics.
I don’t know if people are condoning it but they are certainly ignoring it here BTL on Wings because there are more important things happening in the world and because it’s ‘a woman’s problem’.
The only question I would ask is why are all our politicians condoning this?
Male/female athletes & commenters BTL do not make the laws.
I would start by asking
Why does Nicola Sturgeon, Alex Cole Hamilton, Anas Sarwar, Keir Starmer, Joanna Cherry,
Humza Yousaf, Alex Salmond, Neale Hanvey & every single politician in the UK think this is OK?
I keep repeating the same thing which is the GRA 2004 supported by every single politician in the UK is incompatible with women’s rights and leads to women being pummeled by men in the boxing ring.
There are a lot of similarities between this issue the Scotland’s status. My question is why are so many politicians condoning the issue of Scotland being denied rights?
Scotland is a colony & transwomen are men
It seems to me folk can speak out until the cows come home but nobody is listening and thanks to ‘Humza Yousaf’s Hate Crime bill’ you risk being arrested if you are too outspoken.
Rev. Stuart Campbell @ 10:07 am
“And yet, the USSR is no more and most of its component parts are now independent nations.”
Indeed so Rev, and the UN was primarily established to dismantle the imperial powers, to liberate the many colonised peoples and to end their domination and exploitation through colonial procedures.
Though the remaining dominant powers now seek to align the UN in their favour, its fundamental purpose remains; to dismantle the imperial powers, to decolonize oppressed peoples, and to foster world peace and trade.
The daeless SNP has had 17 years for action, including taking Scotland’s case to the UN and its agencies and international courts, yet has done nothing on this most important of matters. The principle of national self-determination is a longstanding one:
“National aspirations must be respected; people may now be dominated and governed only by their own consent. ‘Self determination’ is not a mere phrase; it is an imperative principal of action’” (President Woodrow Wilson, 1918)
I often wondered about.
They decided to go to the UK supreme court instead. Did they think our coloniser would admit to being colonisers? Dah!
It’s all a bloody con isn’t it.
I also wondered about Sturgeon asking the UK Gov for a section 30. It all looked very staged.
OK Nicola you get a photo taken writing a letter on a couch with your shoes off asking Theresa for a Section 30 and Theresa will say ‘Now is not the time’ and that will let you off the hook and able to dispense more carrots to your dopey supporters and your ‘Bisto Kids’ at Westminster able to enjoy all the perks of being British politicians.
Scotland is being conned into believing women have penises and we are not a colony.
Why did Nicola Sturgeon send Dorothy Bain to the UK supreme court to ask if Scotland was a colony and not to the UN?
We are definitely being well and truly conned!
We have been conned since 1707 when we were ‘bought and sold for English gold Such a Parcel of Rogues in a Nation’.
I’ve been thinking about sex in verse (not to be confused with inverse sex – which is something else entirely).
Biology! Myth…or, for some, just an inconvenient fact?
Re: “Paris Boxing Controversy”
I may be picking this up wrongly, but these individuals are not Trans in any accepted way but biological males and had failed gender eligibility tests in previous contests.
You just need to look at both at then and see that they are biological males.
Algerian boxer Imane Khelif wins first fight at Olympics after being cleared to compete in women’s event despite eligibility row – as Italian opponent abandons bout after 46 seconds
All the misogynistic cunts are saying:
Good. Women wanted equality.
It’ll be interesting to see what is said BTL on Wings.
What is trans PacMan?
What is a transwoman?
It isn’t a trick question honest! Cross my heart!
The argument that Scotland is being cruelly held prisoner by the wicked rUK, and principally of course, the especially wicked English, is pretty ludicrous.
First of all there was a referendum just 11 years ago and most sane individuals would accept that these things can’t happen very often without completely destabilising the country. Unless of course the people of Scotland really want another one, in which case you’d have some sort of a point. But where is the evidence that we do? The SNP have just had their collective arses handed them by the electorate and the separatist alternatives have made nearly zero impact.
And yes, I know those polls that show nearly 50% support for independence that are constantly recycled on this site, but what do they really prove? That when asked by a pollster if Scotland should be an independent country (timeframe unspecified) around half of respondents say yes. If they really meant it, or felt in any way strongly about it Alba would be riding high, the independence marches wouldn’t have become two men and a dog affairs and the National sales would have cracked four figures.
It’s just something you say to pollsters, like your main concern in the election is the NHS or poverty, when it is in fact your personal financial circumstances. it’s proof of nothing.
Scotland is no one’s prisoner, but some of the people on this site are prisoners of a delusion.
I see “Peter Bell” is launching yet another “political party” that will amount to nothing, but gratify his ego.
This is the same Peter Bell who urged Scots to spoil their ballots the last election. And we know what a massive flop that was.
His “New Scotland Party” will be just like the ISP, just like Salvo, just like Alba–they’ll lie (a word Stu uses often) about their support, claiming it’s “massive” whereas it’s just a handful of the usual Mxxnhowlers.
re Ponsonby + Massie . Personally , I couldn’t care less what the likes of those have to say , though I agree the former has a better sense of the * issue * than twitching imperialist buffoon Massie .
re Peter Bell and his proposal for a new Independence Party . As stated previously , my preference is for a more unified non-SNP collective – and as Dan mentions , ISP are already offering a much better , eg broader & deeper , position than any other of the ( nominal ) Independence Parties .
That said , in the absence of the above , what Peter is proposing is sound in principal and laudable in ambition . Let’s not pour cold water on the idea so quickly .
The potential danger is the further fragmentation of the already disparate , unfocused ” Independence Movement ; and whether another Political Party is what’s required at this time ?
Massie is starting a new magazine called the Cringe-Tator, first article
“Please Please tell me what I need to do, to be an Anglo like you”
I’M THE KING OF THE JOCKOS, the jocko vip I’ve reached the top and I’ve got to stop, and that’s what’s bothering me
I WANNA BE A (proper) WHITE MAN ANGLO …
it must be tough, all those years with your tongue-on-balloon-knot and they still leave you in the porch; you did it all right, a decent private school to remove your “accent”, immersed in the anglo world view (all anglo history is a pack of lies worthy of a global negation) but you’re still not good enough
Seriously though, powerful memes using the theme of cuckoldry could be used to effect.
Even that daft canadian woman and her highland r4pe fantasies (In and Out Lander) Gabaldon, had a vicious ass-r4pin for Jamie off the Redcoat at the end of series #1
– not a bad analogy, if somewhat crude and horrendously over extended
If you could reverse the cringe, make it a shameful, embarrassing thing to the public, we would be half way there.
JUST LIKE MASSIE
https://archive.is/wip/ZslsZ
Any evidence there is a demand for another Referendum?
Seems to me a lot of time and energy being wasted on a dwindling minority view.
SNP on the wane and ALBA yet to have a member elected via the ballot box.
The reporting I’m reading says both named competitors are women, have always competed as women and there is no evidence that either has gone through male puberty.
Women, real biological women, should not be hounded.
There’s an article, link below, that explores arguments for a Scottish Clarity Act to be introduced after negotiation and agreement between the Scottish and UK governments as to its terms.
If we went for this is it likely (I think no) that a UK government would be interested. In that case it provides more evidence of how tightly we are bound.
Rev?
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1467-923X.13417
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1170409/scottish-independence/
Support for Scottish independence stays consistently high but not quite high enough and long enough.
50% + 1 is enough. Not 60% or any number that the UK gov unilaterally chooses.
I sometimes wonder what a psychoanalyst would make of Scotland if he could somehow grill us on his couch. I think he’d struggle.
I think it’s fair to say, on the constitutional question at least, that we suffer from inner conflict and contradictions. Theory suggests failure to resolve these things will manifest in self harm.
Nobody here will argue with the idea that voting to stay in the UK was a pretty unequivocal act of self harm. But maybe if we address our inner conflict and contradictions we can do, and get, better.
My personal view is that Scotland is conflicted when it comes to its history and its role as England’s partner in the world. People get angry when you talk about this which is never a good sign.
If England was a person on the couch, I’m pretty sure the diagnosis would be very straightforward and quickly reached; a violent, selfish, materialistic, sociopathic crackpot.
That’s some partner. Maybe given the zeitgeist of the present we hate ourselves for going along with it.
Self harm sort of makes sense when you hate yourself for something.
Mr Massie claims that “you have the right to choose, but not necessarily the right to choose every time a political party demands it”.
In my opinion he could not be more wrong even if he tried. The people of Scotland have the right to choose at every time they want. It is not for a pro-colonial minded pundit like Mr Massie to dictate when the people of Scotland can demand a choice.
If the people of Scotland choose a political party as the vehicle to convey their desire to reclaim that right 100 times within 5 years until that right is fulfilled, then yes, that party has the right, on behalf of the people of Scotland, to demand that right to choose as many times as required, no matter what Mr Massie and his handlers think or want.
This is where the SNP has catastrophically failed to deliver because they deliberately failed to stand up for what they were elected to do and in doing so, deliberately failed the people of Scotland who put their faith on them.
Further than that, because they simply chose to allow a foreign entity to usurp the people of Scotland’s legitimate right to control their own legislative body and put through the referendum bill in line with our MANY mandates, they have simply pissed all over democracy and the constitutional right to popular sovereignty in Scotland.
So to hell with the SNP. They are a non-entity. They are a waste of space and a waste of time and energy. They have failed and deliberately so. They folded like wet paper when they were needed to stand up. They chose to impose Westminster’s sovereignty over Scotland instead of upholding the people of Scotland’s sovereignty over their own country. They have demonstrated they are no longer fit for purpose and therefore the correct action here is to finally give them the p45 and sending them to the dustbin of Scotland’s political history rather than continue to entertain their nonsense and heel-dragging for another election.
The reality is that, by ignoring our countless mandates for a referendum, it has been the SNP’s choice to negate us that referendum, to negate the people of Scotland their legitimate right to self-determination in violation of the UN charter and to negate the people of Scotland their constitutional right to their popular sovereignty. If I had my way I would jail the cheating bastards for thinking they are above Scotland’s constitution and they can continue taking the people of Scotland for absolute fools.
The Supreme Court of the UK is a byproduct of the parliament of Westminster. I actually seriously question the legitimacy of that court to act as a UK court under the treaty of union.
The permanence and existence of both, Westminster and that English court called “UK Supreme Court” is dependent on the preservation of the Treaty of Union, therefore it is fully dependent on Scotland upholding the treaty and remaining in this union. A referendum where a pro-independence campaign would start with support for independence around 50% is a clear threat to that treaty and to the continuity of those two institutions.
I am frankly beyond astonished that nobody of political standing has pointed out yet the evident conflict of interests that that English court and the parliament of Westminster have in the matter of Scotland’s independence and therefore the referendum.
Neither Westminster nor that English court, which purports to “represent” the entire UK but has demonstrated it only represents the interests of the crown, or even the crown itself are impartial to the dissolution of the Treaty of Union.
Because of this, such a decision should take place in a court that is impartial to the outcome of the decision. Both Westminster and that court and even the crown itself are very much affected, actually their existence as “UK structures” very much depends on the permanence of the Treaty of Union.
The only court in the UK where this could have taken place, impartially, is the Supreme court OF Scotland. The Supreme Court in Scotland does not have to abide by the bogus “parliamentary sovereignty” which is only a convention in English law but has no place in Scots law. I am of the opinion this is the main reason why the political fraud Sturgeon and that embarrassment to her profession Lord Advocate took this matter to an English court rather than to the Scottish one.
If we want Holyrood to become an actual parliament rather than Westminster’s tacky talking shop in Scotland and the vehicle for the English crown to keep usurping control over our legislative and executive powers, we need to ditch the Scotland Act.
If we want to have a proper Justice system without the English crown’s fangs buried deep into our Prosecution Service’s jugular, we need to remove that Crown Office from the back of our Prosecution Service. Only then we can start talking about democracy in Scotland. Only then, Scotland can start exercising its rightful and constitutional popular sovereignty.
@Hatuey (1.41) –
We’re not allowed on the couch.
@Sven
I agree those were big mistakes, but Alec Salmond’s biggest mistake was to allow foreigners to vote on Scotland’s sovereignty in our referendum.
If you subtract the English and EU nationals vote, then Scotland would be free.
Can you imagine the French, the USA, or any other country giving foreign nationals a vote on their sovereignty?
THE SOUTHPORT KILLER.
RWANDA. AXEL RUDAKABANA.
STOP THE BOATS AND START THE PLANES.
The Southport child killer. Bring back the rope. Rwandan origin. But it’s the far right that are the big bad rioters. I’m left wing but I’m fed up with immigration. This has to end.
We need to control our borders.
Scotland needs physicians who realise that in a diseased body «crisis» is necessary before healing may begin.
Politicians deal in palliatives, preventing the crisis from occurring.
They intend to keep the body weak.
“Phil”;
Crossword clue for you;
6 letters: ‘a country that has to ask the permission of the country next door to hold a referendum on its own future’ in your own time;
C_L_NY.
‘First of all there was a referendum just 11 years ago..’
And? We had an election a few weeks ago. Why? Was all that not decided 5 years ago at the last one? Besides, if a referendum ‘every 7 years’ is good enough for Northern Ireland as per the good Friday agreement then it’s good enough for Scotland; do one.
‘..I know those polls that show nearly 50% support for independence…’
Aye, and they’d be much higher if Scotland’s media wasn’t produced for and on behalf of the country next door.
‘..It’s just something you say to pollsters, like your main concern in the election is the NHS or poverty, when it is in fact your personal financial circumstances. it’s proof of nothing…’
Bollocks. Independence IS the number 1 issue, the root cause of problems in the NHS, poverty, crumbling infrastructure etc is that we’re kept prisoner in this bucket of shite ‘union’ and have all of our wealth and resources stolen by the country next door. But you know all of this already of course; you’re just posting this old recycled crap to get some air time.
Someone posted a spot-on observation here recently; “Scotland has only ever had 1 enemy, and it ain’t R*ss-ia or C*h-ina”.
‘Scotland is no one’s prisoner…’
That right, aye? Refer to the crossword clue above again.
Ian Brotherhood @2:03pm
🙂
We do get some scraps tossed our way from the dinner table, though – so not all bad.
Massie says, the English don’t write anything down, yes, too right the dont, that way they can move the goalposts when they like.
I can’t believe they still expect us to swallow an Englishmans word is his bond, guff.
@BLMac
Before anyone in the referendum went out and voted on 18.09.14 the NAW side was already 1.5million votes in front. What country seeking to remove its self from a dictator would allow the dictator citizens to vote in in less it was designed to fail from the begging which it did.
Is Alex Salmond a assets NO and Alba Party’s the proof?
The Indy movement should continue but without Sturgeon and Salmond they are both rotten to the cure with Union values and Ideas which Scotland doesn’t need.
The last straw for me was when Sturgeon was saying she was British and Salmond saying we should be prepared to give away land and water for our captor to grant a referendum, NAW, we shouldn’t and these stupid ideas only weakens Scotland and strengthens our neighbour, these two have been a disaster for Scotland.
I’ll support any pro-independence person willing to break Westminster law in order to further the cause of Scotland’s independence.
I refuse to support SNP/Alba/Green tractors.
Scotland has a population of just over 5 million people and not everyone out of that 5 million can vote and to allow the English and foreign nationals but not Scottish nationals living abroad to vote was suicide for the cause of Independence.
All Alex Salmond cares about is his ultra ego its so big its engulfed all his natural thinking. He honestly believe come 2026 the Alba Party will win 26 seats, keep dreaming no one is going to vote for a man who was in the dock for rape even if he was found innocent. His protegee who he couldn’t see anything wrong in her and had been friends for 30+ years ruined his career in a matter of minutes. The general public will always remember Salmond not as the man who delivered us a referendum and failed but that sad old man walking to court every day on trail for rape and this is the reason the Alba Party will never do anything meaning full in Scottish politics, the Alba party should never have asked him to lead the party I believe this was a huge mistake.
Anti-immigrant politics leads to racism, racism leads to persecution, persecution leads to violence, violence leads to anger, anger leads to anti-immigrant racism, and round and round we go… wash, rinse, repeat.
These sort of lessons are being taught to us all over the world right now and explain a lot of the human misery and suffering we see.
Back in the day, when I was “on the tools” in journalism on a daily basis, one of my favourite jobs was when I had to sub Massie’s father’s weekly opinion piece for The Scotsman.
His father was a gentleman and an original thinker. It was a pleasure to sub his copy.
I fear his son must be a grave disappointment to him.
In respect of the UN Charter, I have long held the view that a referendum needs to be held along civic lines, rather than being an ethnic plebiscite.
However, I’m beginning to wonder if that’s not a self-defeating view….
In 2014, the difference in the Yes/No vote was around 400,000. At the time, there were about that number of residents in Scotland who were here from other parts of the EU and yet still had a vote. I have numerous Polish friends who have told me that they voted No because they were frightened of the potential for an independent Scotland to be outside of the EU.
Beyond this, I have a significant number of acquaintances who hail from south of the border, yet are domiciled here in Scotland. Obviously, they too had a vote. As someone who was born in England, you ‘might’ wish to lump me in with that group, but this accident of birth was only because my Aberdonian father was working down south for a year and living there with my mother when I was born. I was conceived in Oban (apparently), have nothing but Scottish ancestry and half of them were forced to learn (and speak) English at school in the Outer Hebrides.
So in terms of the UN’s idea of self-determination of a ‘people’, do we not need to look more closely at the entitlement to vote in a referendum? I understand that in Switzerland, they have separate voting eligibility criteria for its own citizens and for ‘foreigners living in Switzerland’.
If as ‘Scots’ we are a ‘people’ in our own right and with that we have the right of self determination, why on earth do we opt to dilute that right by giving votes to other ‘peoples’ who may tend to retain a separate self-interest or indeed, the interests of the alien sovereign power from which we are trying to remove ourselves?
I know a few people from groups such as ‘English Scots for Yes’ and numerous people who have attended independence rallies who voted Yes in 2014. These people may be denied an independence vote if such were to occur again along less than civic lines. However, I’m beginning to believe that a purely Scottish plebiscite for native Scots would actually make more sense in the UN terms of a ‘people’ seeking self-determination and would ultimately secure that which we all seek.
I do understand the danger here! The real problem is that we do not have proper Scottish citizenship. That can only come about after independence and yet it may actually be needed to achieve that.
However, I think the real issue is that true independence can only come from consent with other sovereign nations. If they opt not to recognise your independence, even after a legitimate and successful vote, you’re going nowhere.
“SMEARING people is a “Security Service job”, a former police officer told an inquiry into undercover operations – just before the live feed was cut off.”
https://www.thenational.scot/news/24491141.ucpi-live-feed-ends-inquiry-told-smears-security-service-job/
Weel A nivver. Wha wad hae thocht hit.
Tartan Tory
You could divide up the question into two votes. The first is obviously “Should we end the Union?”. Naturally you want the deck stacked as heavily in favour of “Yes” as you can legally get away with. The second vote deals with “OK, so what now?” That could list all the options and the franchise can be expanded so everyone with a stake in the future gets a say. That would have avoided the “One Party State” that the SNP were offering and might have encouraged more people to switch to “Yes”.
Peter A Bell: Bravo sir!
The only thing to do now is to establish that Scotland is a colony.
Why the reluctance to do that?
Time to look at the 2014 IndyRef result as 55% wanting Scotland to remain a British colony.
Scotland is pathetic!
There seems to be a fair number of the ‘Bonkers Brigade’ posting today. The most annoying thing is it’s the same shit different day!
I don’t think Scotland needs a psychoanalyst Scotland needs an exorcist!
Stuart MacKay
I fear you credit the polity with more understanding than may be warranted….
I spoke with a devout SNP member last month who was proudly displaying A4 voting propaganda in her kerb-side window. I suggested that she may be ‘a wee bit blinkered’ and this was met with protestations that nothing I said would make a difference to her vote.
I proceeded in vain to extol the lack of virtue in Mr & Mrs Murrell and was then flabbergasted to discover that, despite being a lifelong nationalist, she had voted Tory a few years ago because she thought the prospective Tory candidate looked nice in his jacket and tie.
I’ve given up!
@100%yes
“but not Scottish nationals living abroad to vote was suicide for the cause of Independence.”
Polling suggests that, before the 2014 Referendum, expat Scots favoured the Union. After Brexit polling suggests expat Scots favour independence.
It would be good, if possible to make links with groups of expat Scots for their support.
If we favour a Scottish Clarity Act and can get the UK gov to consider it then we might be able to negotiate the franchise for a referendum to favour us. The one benefit I can see of such an Act is that it sets out a legal path to independence that is fixed and does not depend on a UK gov decision.Which is why it may never happen.
You may be right about Salmond though he is usually shrewd politically. Where are our leaders?
@ Tartan Tory
I’m aware of multiple EU citizens that voted No due to Better Together’s “Best way to lose your EU citizenship is to vote YES” BS. Then promptly fucked off home after “Brexit” vote.
They had fuck all long term commitment to Scotland, many were just economic migrants working here to bank serious coin to take back to their homeland to build a mansion to live in that they could never have earned enough to build working in their own country.
One had been here so long they had all their 3 kids through Uni too, and was happy to up sticks and leave after EU vote.
Speaking to an acquaintance a couple of days ago and he was telling me his ex EU girlfriend was always putting Scotland down, even though she went through uni here, then fucked aff hame without repaying any student debt.
EU citizens here still retain the ability to leave should stuff become unbearable for them, a safety net Scots no longer have with the loss of oor freedom of movement.
Other EU citizens come over here for summer then go home for winter because they can’t stand or afford the heating to get through oor shite winters. They earn fuck all whilst here so don’t pay any taxes but still access oor health care. Total benefit to Scotland’s economy, not.
There’s a reason Westminster allowed EU citizens a vote in the IndyRef but denies them a vote in GEs. Only fucking idiots can’t see that.
@ Young Lochinvar, out of interest did you exclaim “Bravo Madame!” when Collette Walker and ISP launched years ago or were you decrying pop up Parties and cunning plans whilst still clinging on to SNP apron strings whilst the Party was burning mandates and pushing all sorts of insane unwanted policies whilst putting more focus into taking out Salmond than running the Scottish Administration for the betterment of Scottish citizens.
Revolutionaries do not make revolutions, the revolutionaries are those who know when power is lying in the street ready to be picked it up.
Hannah ARENDT
Dan
I have always found ISP a bit under the radar and lacking in media coverage but if I’d seen an article such as you describe then yes I probably would have.
As for the rest of your “comment”; I have followed Peter A Bells posts across several forums and always find them intelligent and thought provoking.
Other than that you’ve lost me, no idea what you are trying to accuse me of.
Have a nice day.
Tartan Tory
re: polity. Totally, but sooner or later you have to decide whether you want democracy or not. I think the time of a small section of society making all the decisions is rapidly coming to an end. They’ve failed to grasp or even act on several rather severe problems that are about to get a whole lot worse. If the decision making process is more open then maybe we’ll get better solutions. It can’t be any worse than what we have now.
Ruby Thursday says:
1 August, 2024 at 12:33 pm
Would it not have more benefit to ask this question to the many feminists who stay quiet on the subject or attack those who question this ideology?
Ruby: “There seems to be a fair number of the ‘Bonkers Brigade’ posting today. The most annoying thing is it’s the same shit different day!”
I’m sure your intensely funny jokes and interesting contributions don’t need it, but maybe the mundane comments made by the rest of us provide a comparison that serves to compliment your posts, making them seem all the more wonderful.
It would be nice to think we had some sort of useful purpose here.
@sam
Lets not forget that all these so called pollsters are Union doctrine. I wouldn’t be surprised the SNP weren’t fooled into making the option to allow English and foreign national to improve the odds to achieving Independence when it actually had the opposite effect deliberately and all the time Scots broad would have opted for Yes, after all the majority of the Scottish people voted YES.
If the English man comes for a visit make sure they never take their coat off, next thing you’ll know they own your property and sleeping with your wife.
Pacman I don’t know any feminist who stay quiet on the subject
(aka Feminist who wheesht) and even if I did I have a pretty good idea what answer I would get.
I was just wondering what you thought trans was.
Does it matter if these two boxers are transwomen or just men or is there a difference?
I can see you’re of the belief this is a woman issues & being that feminists wanted equality it’s good that they’ve got it. Punch a terf!
You are not alone here BTL on Wings!
I wonder how many more women this Algerian man will have to punch before he gets his gold medal. Any clues?
Ruby Thursday says:
1 August, 2024 at 8:39 pm
It’s all very well shouting misogynist to every man who disagrees with you or does not do what you say. It is the exact same thing that gets said to men who speaks up about this subject.
The problem is that woman are gaining form this DE&I ideology that has allowed Trans to profligate in our society but are unhappy because it is becoming clear it is affecting them. They don’t want to rock the boat of the ideology that they benefit from.
Why don’t you just continue saying all men and misogynists, secretly want to continue the patriarchy and all other such feminist claptrap. I’m sure it makes you feel good rather than actually dealing with the problem.
Italian Carini did not acknowledge her opponent when Khelif attempted to approach her in the ring, as she dropped to the floor and sobbed while conceding defeat with a suspected broken nose.
Well done Angela it’s always sickening to see women congratulation cheating men.
I landed on a forum where people were posting in French and I found the following very witty I was also reminded that there was a time when there was a lot of tension between the French and Algerians. That may have changed although I don’t think ‘I a man’ may not have helped things.
There were a whole series of comment saying
C’est un homme!
C’est un homme!
C’est un homme!
C’est un homme!
With the final one saying
‘C’est un fomme!’ That made me laugh
So did
‘Enfin une sportive qui a des couilles’
one said
Why isn’t she wearing a hijab?
Which I thought was a very good point.
BTW. There’s a huge difference between mundane and bloody bonkers.
“Massie repeatedly says out loud what only the most rabid Yoons of social media are normally prepared to utter – that Scotland is a prisoner nation with no fundamental right of self-determination without the permission of the rest of the UK.”
Isn’t that the constant bleat BTL? Good to know you disagree. First there has to be a consistent, enduring majority for independence. Work on that. BTL just persuades the other way.
The problem is that woman are gaining form this DE&I ideology that has allowed Trans to profligate in our society but are unhappy because it is becoming clear it is affecting them.
It appears there is more than just one cunt BTL on Wings.
Move over Ellis you have been upstaged!
Ruby Thursday
says:
1 August, 2024 at 9:22 pm
Just about sums up the attitude of 4th generation feminism.
It’s hardly surprising how men are not willing to stick their necks out for this subject when this is what woman think of them. Much like that white knight in Govanhill park who ended up with life changing injuries.
‘Just about sums up the attitude of 4th generation feminism.’
You just hate these feminists don’t you PacMan
Punch a terf!
I hate to disappoint you but I am not a feminists, nor am I a moonhowler, a fringe nutter, a schemie with tourettes or representing any group whatsoever.
Anything I post here is just my personal opinion.
Ruby Thursday
says:
1 August, 2024 at 10:00 pm
If you stopped hurling insults to those who disagree with you for a moment, you will realise that these fourth wave feminists are as much part of the problem that is causing this Trans ideology to flourish, both in their silence and active attacks on those who are against Trans.
That’s too hard to do, isn’t it? Every man in a cunt, aren’t they?
I’ve scribbled doun anither poem.
The leid o’ the Scots is a braw leid.
Pacman says
Every man is a cunt, aren’t they?
Naw! Just you and Ellis.
Cheerio!
Young Lochinvar says: at 6:35 pm
“I have always found ISP a bit under the radar and lacking in media coverage but if I’d seen an article such as you describe then yes I probably would have.
As for the rest of your “comment”; I have followed Peter A Bells posts across several forums and always find them intelligent and thought provoking.
Other than that you’ve lost me, no idea what you are trying to accuse me of.
Have a nice day.”
Of course ISP and AFI were a “bit under the radar and lacking in media coverage” because big “players” and egos just couldn’t get behind something that they didn’t come up with or create.
But if you’d have given a “Bravo Madame” to Collette and ISP back in 2020 presumably because you supported what they were doing, then how does the creation of yet another “Pro Indy” Party that is very closely aligned with ISP help the situation now?
ISP were first to recognise and step up to fill the political vacuum created by the NuSNP pissing away time, burning mandates, foisting incompetent and insane and unwanted policies onto us. Plus NuSNP were also busy trying to fit up Salmond. So when Salmond was cleared in court he then launches Alba in 2021 effectively pissing all over ISP’s efforts.
Well Alba who you’d also have to say have been a bit under the radar have crashed and burned now losing their MPs to the point hard working and committed individuals like Eva Comrie who left Alba (like several other women) stood as an I4I candidate and still managed to beat Alba’s Kenny MacAskill.
Now obviously I4I candidates only had a few months to prepare for the GE so it was always going to be a steep uphill struggle, especially when they were effectively doing it all by themselves with little to no notable support from quite a few of the bigger named Indy bloggers.
Sally Hughes in Perth and Kinross-shire had a particularly rough time of it due to thousands of her campaigning leaflets getting delivered to the wrong constituency, meaning thousands weren’t delivered to folk in the constituency she was standing in so they had no idea she was a potential candidate they could vote for.
So my point is that it has consistently shown to be a fool’s errand to think you can make a significant impact in a short period of time. And if folk have any practical clue about the time and effort it takes to campaign on the ground and reach folk in constituencies of around 70k people, they’d maybe have begun to realise that you have to think smart, be ahead of the curve and make a long term commitment and stick with it, and not just think you can chuck something together quickly in the short term and expect it to work.
That’s my beef and makes me question folk that spent way too long sticking with NuSNP and not getting behind new Parties in 2020 as a Plan B when it was obvious there was no Plan A, and now 4 years later create something so similar to what others already have up and running.
Scottish Parliament election is 2 years away with compromised proportional voting system that the electorate are too dumb to understand making it difficult to make any real inroads.
That’s not enough time, and new Parties will need a lot of candidates which seem in short supply. Multiple Parties will require multiple candidates who will be fighting each other for votes and confusing the electorate and creating vote dilution, so basically a tactical disaster and waste of effort.
This was an issue in last Scottish election with ISP, AFI, and Alba, but ISP stood down. Are ISP and Alba going to do the same for a New Party?
5 years is next GE using simple FPTP and more realistic. Only need 57 candidates and simple campaign message, something that smarter more prescient minds could have been preparing for years ago and could have had a proper run at the GE we’ve just had…
One last thing. Who are the local activists going to be for any new Party? I ask because all the hardcore Indy activists on the ground have already had to endure a real credibility hit due to the Parties they used to campaign for turning into skipfires.
That makes it very difficult for individuals trying to tell the people they speak to that the previous Party they asked them to vote for were actually shite, and yeah the next were not much better, but this time these ones are the real deal, honest…
I interact with a lot of folk in my locale, from the poorest struggling to get by to the estate owning landed gentry. Many are totally scunnered with all Parties and ripe for trying a new way and more local independent representation.
Do you think it is easy to have to continually shed a political skin when living in amongst folk that have known you for decades. You just end up looking like a daft snake oil salesman.
If I was a unionist I would be pissing myself at the state the Indy movement has got itself into.
Proper planning and preparation prevents piss poor performance. Tactics are not a type of mint.
Dan
Well there’s not much I disagree with what you are saying, and empathise with.
Just wondering why me posting 2 words has kicked off such angst.
PAB excels in looking beyond the now discredited party political system, in my opinion.
Mind you, if you want the SNP buried then some “political party” actually serious about independence needs to step up to the plate that can see and act beyond Westminster chicanery..
No need to reply, sleep it off.
WOW Dan bang on target, THAT comment isn’t just aimed at Young Lochinvar it is aimed at everyone BTL , STOP treating politicians as if they are the MESSIAH, THEY only care about themselves and we continue to suffer because they are FRAUDS and COWARDS
Massie, and co.. are the exact type of subserviant lowlife that would happily beteray an entire nation.
Puts me in mind of the negro slaves willingly and passionately fighting for the confederacy in the American civil war.
Young Lochinvar says at 3:21 am
“Well there’s not much I disagree with what you are saying, and empathise with.
Just wondering why me posting 2 words has kicked off such angst.
PAB excels in looking beyond the now discredited party political system, in my opinion.
Mind you, if you want the SNP buried then some “political party” actually serious about independence needs to step up to the plate that can see and act beyond Westminster chicanery..
No need to reply, sleep it off.”
Firstly, are you just trolling? I ask because you use the word “wondering” rather than “wondered” which is present rather than past tense, which suggests you still don’t understand why you think I have “angst” and can just “sleep it off” when I have clearly explained numerous reasons why multiple similar Parties causes issues on freeing Scotland from this debilitating predicament.
So “PAB excels in looking beyond the now discredited party political system, in my opinion.”… Hmm, by creating another Party. Please explain why this is genius and not insanity of doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Keeping in mind the very real practically realities I touch on in my previous post.
Have you any activist experience of actually engaging with the public face to face in a campaign. You know, going out speaking to complete strangers on the street or chapping doors, sometimes traipsing many miles in hellish winter minus 10 temps (2019 GE). If you had this experience you would understand why it is imperative that a proper structured system which takes serious time and effort to create is required so the best possible outcome is obtained.
Intellectuals gonna intellectual though I guess, Pity it’s the practical folk that actually have to do the hard graft, and the movement might be in better shape if some of these supposedly brilliant intellectual minds took on board the experiences of folk that do the physical work.
Some practical folk have recognised and been talking about the failings and corruption of the Party system for years, and suggesting alternatives, and are somewhat frustrated that the “intellectuals” are taking so fucking long to begin to conclude that is the case.
I can’t be arsed searching back to find the first of the discussions on that subject, but a quick search found this post from last year.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/now-the-traffic-lights-change/comment-page-2/#comment-2798465
Dan
Charming!
A master class in making up your mind about someone on the briefest of discourse.
You must be a barrel of laughs when you are out chapping doors.
And you have the nerve to call ME a Troll!
Not quite decided whether to sigh or laugh, probably sigh if you are the self proclaimed “quality” of door chapping independence activism- God help us all..
In advance of no doubt another of your alcohol (or whatever) fuelled rants; just go do one eh and gie us peace.
Aye, and behold the masterclass of Young Lochinvar playing the man and not the ball…
I hadn’t made up my mind about anything, I simply asked you a few questions in a couple of posts that you’ve failed to answer, but tbh your evasion and lack of interest in actually addressing and rebutting the points I’ve made kinda helps form my opinion of you.
Bernard Ponsonby and Wings commit the same fundamental over-reach error that all nationalists make in claiming that they speak for Scotland. The cupboard is truly empty when you have to revert to the UN’s right of self determination as a basis for the separation of Scotland from the UK especially when the Nationalist movement, after 17 years in power can’t even convince itself of the merits of an independent Scotland. No convincing case has ever been put to the Scottish people. Instead the SNP has gorged itself in cronyism, corruption, ineptitude and failure. Having Nationalism as the dominant force in Scottish government has been an abject failure which will take decades to sort out. What a shameful legacy!
Hmmm..
Yes, well very good..
Now be a good “practical” “man” and bugger off,
theres a good fellow and leave us “intellectuals”(?!) in peace.
Feel free to respond if you just have to but mind I willnae be reading it..
Dan
Addendum to previous.
Who exactly were you out “traipsing about in minus 10degrees” (hmmm – live in Braemar do you because nowhere else was hitting those temperatures around then) on behalf of, would it be the SNP who you now rail against like a cheated wife?
As for minus 10; who forced you? Who?
Or have you dined out on that (alleged) deliberate piece of pointless self sacrifice ever since?
As they used to say back in the day when I was in the army in Germany and it really would hit those kind of temperatures and your nostril hairs would freeze up if you exposed yourself unnecessarily while on manoeuvres for WEEKS- “well any daft cunt can make themselves uncomfortable!
I see the self identified intellectual has responded again, and still avoids answering any of my points, and instead is again trying to find a way to play the man rather than the ball.
So this “intellectual” doesn’t appear to understand that temperatures can vary significantly from where the weather station for an area is located.
I live north of the local weather station at a higher altitude in an exposed area that regularly sees temperatures considerably lower than what the weather station measures.
I’ve been at evening meetings in the town where the weather station is sited, and when I leave to drive home there are no cold temp warning lights illuminated on my car, I can drive 5 miles north and I get the frost warning light come on, then a further 10 miles I get the ice warning light illuminate so that’s at least an approximate 5 deg lower temperature difference.
I’ve just checked back on the weather records for my local weather station in November and December 2019 and low and behold they recorded temps down to minus 3. So factor in the 5 degree colder temps I can get at my higher altitude and exposed area and that makes minus 8, which compares rather closely with the minus ten my neighbours and I recorded on our thermometers in greenhouses and cars. Let’s not forget to add in wind chill effects when mountain biking around the locale to get round the doors too…
But fuck it, arguing this temperature aspect seems more important to the “intellectual” than actually addressing the points I’ve made asking them how the formation of yet another political Party which is very closely aligned with one already in existence will work.
Any intellectual worth their salt would surely be able to proffer an explanation for the lower functioning practically minded plebs.
I’d left the SNP previously because they had begun to lose the plot, but was asked to rejoin and assist locally for the 2019 December GE, which for me was the last chance for SNP to get a decent result which would instigate them acting on the mandate of the material change in circumstance of Scotland being pulled out the EU against its will.
So after committing considerable time and effort over the years to the cause for returning Scotland to self-governing status I was motivated enough to put in a shift for that short snap general election campaign to retain decent SNP representation.
But as we know Sturgeon’s post GE January 2020 speech was just a weak capitulation even though her red lines had been crossed.
And for further confirmation of the significant temperature differences I’ve just checked back to Feb 2021 where the local weather station records a low for the month of minus 10 on the 11th, and I’ve a picture of my neighbour’s car dash showing minus 18.5 on the 9th.
And just a slight amendment to last post.
I should have clicked on the picture my neighbour sent of their car dash and one of it covered in snow, as it would have opened up to show more detail and include the date for the dash cold temp which was actually on the 11th.
So the 9th was when the snow dump came before the temps plummeted.
And the minus 18.5 temp was actually the same day as the weather station recorded their minus 10 lowest of the month temp. Proving there was an 8.5 deg temp difference just 15 miles away from weather station.
Peter A Bell; Bravo Sir!!
@Effiyy
A good post though the Germans were dispossessed of their colonial possessions in the Great War. Britain took their East African ones off in a nasty sideshow. South Africa took what is now Namibia formerly German SW Africa. Australia took New Guinea off them. New Zealand took their Samoan ones and our then allies the Japanese took the German’s Chinese Canton.
“Bernard Ponsonby and Wings commit the same fundamental over-reach error that all nationalists make in claiming that they speak for Scotland.”
When did either of us claim to be doing that?
The moment that it looks like a majority of Scots would vote for independence is the moment I will say that the lack of permission to have one is wrong.
There is no hope at this time of winning an independence ref so the point is wholly moot. Lots of work needs done to get to the point where there is majority support for independence at which point permission cannot be refused and won’t be. At the moment happy enough to have no more referendums that have no hope of succeeding wasting time, effort and creating even more strife. You need to get out and convince folk it’s a good idea first.