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Wings Over Scotland

The same old songs

Posted on May 15, 2013 by

We’re indebted to the alert reader who sent us a link to this last night:

If you don’t have time to sit through it all now, it’s an STV referendum debate – not about independence in 2014, but about devolution in 1997. In short, all the arguments and dire warnings we’re fed by Unionists now about independence were also deployed against devolution, which doesn’t in fact seem to have caused the sky to fall in.

It’s also interesting to note a BBC news story uncovered by National Collective this morning which reports a poll finding that “76% of businesses believe a double-yes vote in Thursday’s referendum would harm the climate for business in Scotland”.

While right-wing, conservative organisations like the CBI and FSB will doubtless never stop bleating about the terrible “uncertainty” of constitutional change, it’s good to see that there’s been at least some progress made in that field.

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143 to “The same old songs”

  1. jr ewen says:

    wow baby face alex

  2. Peter A Bell says:

    Wee bit unfair on FSB perhaps. As far as I am aware they have maintained a fairly neutral position on the constitutional question. Certainly not as openly hostile as the massively less representative CBI.

  3. Domhnall Dods says:

    Michael Ancram was right though – it was the start of a process

  4. Tony Little [aka Aplinal] says:

    Thanks Rev.  I am sure that the parallels with devolution back in 1997 – in particular the wild scare stories of the time, will be a useful counterpoint to these same scare stories today.  I doubt that I am alone is hoping (expecting?) that the YES campaign will have a library of these to publish closer to the time.
    I do get frustrated at times, and sometimes can not keep my eye on the long game, but I no longer expect any change in the YES campaign approach until release/publication of the White paper in November this year.
    Once that hits the streets, the real campaign will start, at which point the No Better Together campaign (who knows there may be three separate  campaigns by then – I mean will the LibDems allow themselves to be thrown even further to the wolves?)
    So, memo to self: DON’T PANIC!

  5. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    Peter: the Federation of Small Businesses is incredibly conservative, both large- and small-c. I don’t know if they have an official formal policy about independence, but I’m certain they’re overwhelmingly against it.

  6. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I doubt that I am alone is hoping (expecting?) that the YES campaign will have a library of these to publish closer to the time.”

    I might gather a few quotes and run a fun “Ancram 1997 or Darling 2013?” quiz later 😀

  7. Doug Daniel says:

    I love quizzes. That sounds like it might be quite a tough one.
    Some suggestions for future difficult quizzes :

    “Who said it: Johann or Cameron?”
    “Who said it: Labour or UKIP?”
    “Who said it: Ian Davidson or Begby from Trainspotting?”.

  8. Tony Little [aka Aplinal] says:

    Strangely I did not finish my mail hehehe.  So here it is
    Once the White paper hits the streets, the real campaign will start, at which point the No Better Together campaign (who knows there may be three separate  campaigns by then – I mean will the LibDems allow themselves to be thrown even further to the wolves?) will have painted itself into such a corner of negativity, self-contradictions and downright lies and duplicity, that I do not think any “don’t knowers” will give them the time of day. 
    Despite the overly compliant MSM, especially the BBC in Scotland, the truth is still getting out.  I hope S_S can encourage me by showing that even after the Brit-fest in 2012, and despite the constant sniping (e.g. the 500 questions) et al, the fact that YES still seems to command a steadily improving solid core of 30-35% bodes well.
    I am now in my Zen mode,  it will all proceed as necessary if I let it!
    Alba gu bràth

  9. Domhnall Dods says:

    Just fast forwarded to the summing up, Donald Findlay was spot on, Jim Wallace sounded like he belonged to Yes Scotland! Fascinating to look back

  10. James Kay says:

    It might be just me or my iPad, but I cannot get the links within this story to work. I have checked in other stories, all seems OK.

  11. Tattie-boggle says:

    57 mins in for a Kevin Bridges look alike

  12. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “It might be just me or my iPad, but I cannot get the links within this story to work. I have checked in other stories, all seems OK.”

    Hmm, can’t explain that. They’re no different to other links in any way.

  13. An Duine Gruamach says:

    From the Beeb piece:
    Dozens of Scottish businesses have joined a new organisation which has been set up to lobby for a yes vote in the independence referendum.
    Business for Scotland, which said it had recruited more than 350 members, will officially launch in Glasgow later.”

    Technically, I suppose that is dozens – but when did you last hear a number as high as 350+ referred to that way?

  14. muttley79 says:

    “Dozens” when it is more than 350?  😀 Oh dear….

  15. Doug Daniel says:

    Just watching it now. Whatever happened to Joan Ingram, and can someone get her back?

  16. Doug Daniel says:

    Donald Dewer’s opening statement could be repeated almost verbatim to argue for independence. It’s quite bizarre that Labour “devolutionists” can’t see that.

  17. pmcrek says:

    Heh and if 70 people attend a BT hand wringing they are referred to as “hundreds”.

  18. AmadeusMinkowski says:

    @Doug Daniel
    “Who said it: Ian Davidson or Begby from Trainspotting?”.
    Brilliant quip. That is a one-liner that could be usefully deployed in future! Still laughing…

  19. Doug Daniel says:

    Amazing, Donald Dewer using the “why are Scots uniquely incapable?” argument to argue for devolution… But if he were here today, the exact same question would be asked of him.
    Unionists just don’t do irony.

  20. Boorach says:

    Oh, come on ADG and Muttley thats pretty good for the beeb. 350 is just short of 30 dozen so in their minds ‘dozens’ just about covers it…… doesn’t it?

  21. balgayboy says:

    This is good stuff, amazing how situations, people/politics change over a period of time. This video should be analysed in respect to where these politicians and their party’s opinions are now in comparison to what their views where then and today.
    Was Tam Dalyell really a Scottish Labour MP!
    At least the programme was giving everyone a chance to say their piece and the audience did not seem to be selected on political chance of that happening with our old friends in EBC scotland.

  22. David Milligan - a very Sovereign Scot says:

    The CBI have only about 100 members in Scotland, why are they listened to?

  23. Albert Herring says:

    BBC Finance: Footsie Just Under 30 Dozen data
    BBC Top Gear: Just Under 30 Dozen Lambos roar through Italy
    BBC News budget just under £30 dozen million

  24. Cath says:

    ““We were set up as the party to represent the values of working people, working being the key word. ”
    Brilliant. So work all your life. Work your fingers to the bone and your joints to arthritis. Breath in asbestos and destroy your back with heavy lifting. Work until you’re too ill to work any more. Then we won’t give a fuck about you because you’re a useless drain on society and that spare room you wanted for the grandkids…forget it.

  25. Cath says:

    Oh, sorry, think that posted on the wrong thread. I’m sure I was reading the one about dog-whistles. Apologies for derailing this one with a totally random post!

  26. Tony Little [aka Aplinal] says:

    Don’t worry, it had a certain resonance anyway 😉

  27. AmadeusMinkowski says:

    The Ghost of Referendum Past

     An allegory inspired by “the Ghosts of Christmas Past”

    The Ghost of Christmas Past was the first spirit that haunted the miserly “Bitter-Together Gang” (BTG), in order to prompt them to repent.

    The spirit first showed BTG the Referendum Day in 1997, when Bella Caledonia chose to go her seperate way and modify their relationship; as BTG’s increasing obsession with money caused BTG to alienate her.

    Then, the Ghost showed BTG how  Bella Caledonia found happiness with Holyrood.

    After this vision, BTG, out of anger, extinguished the Ghost of Christmas Past by re-reading the tendentious “UK government’s Scotland analysis series”, and exhorting her allies in MSM and BBC to increase their scaremongering output.

    BTG  then found themselves back in the UK Treasury, calculating how to stop Bella Caledonia from gaining her full freedom and true happiness.

  28. MacSenex says:

    Attended Launch of Business for Scotland last night.  Inspired presentation by Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp.  All contributors with a wide breadth of experience in UK and international business  spoke of their purpose to increase business in Scotland to share the wealth and reduce the gap between rich and poor a la the  Common Weal from The Jimmy Reid Foundation.
    Best thing all of us could do is hire a local hall, personally  invite all your friends, neighbours and relations and ask Gordon to  repeat the  presentation.  It’s the best presented arguments for Independence I’ve heard anywhere  and he tackles all the scaremongering head-on including the bank bailouts.
    I ran some of his arguments before some work colleagues this morning.  They were gobsmacked and wondered why the media were not reporting these.

  29. Braco says:

    Yes I watched this after the 2011 SNP win, in anticipation. I was amazed at the quality of the debate and the way that the production format encouraged the audience to get their points across. It actually felt like a genuine debate.
    Compared to the ‘Leaders’ Debates we are subjected to these days it’s really evident how far broadcasting and the MSM in Scotland have fallen.

  30. Desimond says:

    My mate says his sister in law was taught by Johann Lamont. It was not a pleasant experience.  Johanns attitude to her was basically “You…you will never amount to anything!”. Which seems is the basis for the NO Campaign 20 odd years later!

  31. Jeannie says:

    Wow – I’ve just watched that entire clip.  Just wow!  In fact, I’m going to watch it again later on.  What a difference to what we get served up to us today by STV and the BBC.  That was absolutely fascinating stuff.  If you haven’t watched it all the way through, I’d strongly recommend that you do.  There’s a guy in the audience early on from Ayrshire who’s against the parliament.  He seemed familiar.  Wondering if he’s the Scottish Tory MSP who speaks on, I think, Finance.  Is it Alex somebody? 
    But loved the quote from another audience member “Vote Yes Yes with your head and your hearts, not No No with your pockets”.  Class!

  32. Dorothy Devine says:

    Fantastic debate – pity it can’t be shown again with the enthusiastic audience cheering it on!
    Pity we won’t be allowed to see its like again on either BBBBC Scotland or STV.

  33. Dcanmore says:

    Apparently a 100 more Scottish business people have signed up to YES since the original 350 was published. 🙂

  34. Doug Daniel says:

    52 minutes and 20 seconds in: Hanzala Malik!

  35. An Duine Gruamach says:
    15 May, 2013 at 12:07 pm

    From the Beeb piece:
    Dozens of Scottish businesses have joined a new organisation which has been set up to lobby for a yes vote in the independence referendum.
    Business for Scotland, which said it had recruited more than 350 members, will officially launch in Glasgow later.”
    Technically, I suppose that is dozens – but when did you last hear a number as high as 350+ referred to that way?
    Devils advocate time – its says dozens of businesses, but 350 members. Does each business only count as one member, or can you have more than one member per business? If its the later, you could have half a dozen members per business, for example.

    As for the video, the negativity and scaremongering didn’t work then, and its not going to work this time either. 🙂

  36. Ewan Ritchie says:

    Ive posted this up several times before.. When I found it I could not believe the parallels that I saw… Salmond owns it also… 🙂

  37. Max says:

    From the BBC vaults – 1997:


    The Director of the Scottish CBI, Iain McMillan, said: “Tony Blair is saying that the case for devolution has been made from a business point of view.

    “The view of the council of CBI Scotland is that the case has not been made.”

    Dismissing the “No” campaign as a “scare campaign” controlled by the Conservatives, Mr Blair tackled head-on the fears of the business community over the proposed tax-raising powers for the Scottish parliament.

    Mr Blair said: “I can’t think of many or indeed any legislative bodies that don’t have some form of revenue raising power.”
    It is strange how history has a way of repeating itself. 


  38. Max says:

    More from the vaults


    The former Prime Minister, John Major, has angered the partners in Scotland Forward, by urging Scots to reject devolution in the referendum.
    Writing in The Times newspaper he described Home Rule as a doomed enterprise. “Devolution would hurt business. It would hurt people. It would take power away from individuals and mean higher taxes for Scots. It would eventually lead to the break-up of the United Kingdom.”

  39. Stuart Black says:

    O/T Rev, sorry, but I have just paid a visit to the Herald, and I need to point out that the poster having a go at Nicola on the ‘Brown attacks’ story, and calling himself Stuart Black, Glasgow is absolutely and categorically nothing to do with me.
    Dammit, ma pals might see this and think I’ve gone all swivel-eyed…

  40. Jeannie says:

    Looking again at bits of the clip, I’m struck by how much better-informed the audience seems compared with today’s audiences.  Did they select the audience back then as they do now or was it just that a lot of the media agreed with the Yes Yes campaign back then so were promoting a Yes Yes vote?  Somebody should send this video to Bernard Ponsonby, John Mackay, Brian Taylor, Glenn Campbell, etc. and show them how it should be done.  It will also give Bernard a chance to remember a time when he was less jaded.

  41. scottish_skier says:

    Another very poor poll for Labour UK-wide

    CON 31 (+2) 
    LAB 34 (-4)
    LIB DEM 10 (nc) 
    UKIP 13 (-2)

    Economic optimism reaches 3 year high as Labour supporters curb their enthusiasm

    Only a 3 point lead and that’s into no chance of a majority territory.

    Opinium for the observer should be out soon.

  42. Max says:

    Margaret Thatcher speaks;


    Former Prime Minister Baroness Thatcher is also in Scotland today to make a speech at a tourism conference in Glasgow. In an interview in the Scotsman newspaper today, she accused the Government of acting in a “shallow and cynical manner”. Mr Hague welcomed Lady Thatcher’s comments, telling BBC Radio Scotland that it was time for everyone to speak out against devolution.

    So even 16 years ago the Scotsman and BBC Scotland were prominently giving a voice to opponents of Scottish Home Rule. Somethings never change. 



  43. Tattie-boggle says:

    O/T anyone any idea what going on here Saltires Galore in the background

  44. Luigi says:

    I note that Business for Scotland already has more than three times as many members as CBI Scotland. I take it that the MSM will now no longer depend on the latter to exclusively (mis)represent the views of Scottish Business on Independence?

  45. The Man in the Jar says:

    @Stuart Black
    at 2;28pm
    Time to resurrect you stolen guitar?

  46. BillyBigBaws says:

    I posted this vid in the comments here ages ago, and Rev Stu said he was going to watch it over the weekend and might do a post on it – but do I get any credit? No, I do not.

    Seriously though, it’s a great debate which everybody should watch – Unionist and Yesser alike, but especially the undecided. Everybody says “I’m not watch a seventy minute debate about devolution!” Then they start watching it… then they watch it all. Even some relatively hardcore Unionists can be swayed. It is the one vid I try to get everybody to watch.

    The only scare story that turned out to be true was Tam Dalyell’s near-tearful claim that a Scottish Parliament would lead inevitably to independence. He was right, thankfully. All the other guff about higher taxes and the sky falling in – pure pish and wind, as the historical record now shows.

  47. Mister Worf says:

    This is the song that never ends,
    Yes it goes on and on my friends,
    Some people starting singing full well knowing what it was,
    And they’ll continue singing it forever just because….

  48. Jeannie says:

    Well done, you!  It’s a real eye-opener.  I was just sitting here wondering how to go about selecting highlights from it, e.g. some of Jim Wallace’s stuff, and just posting various smaller clips onto facebook.  Anybody know how to do that?

  49. Dal Riata says:

    Sorry O/T
    @Rev Stu  No link anymore to National Collective in your “Scottish Politics” list?

  50. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “No link anymore to National Collective in your “Scottish Politics” list?”

    Yeah, fuck ’em.

  51. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I posted this vid in the comments here ages ago, and Rev Stu said he was going to watch it over the weekend and might do a post on it – but do I get any credit? No, I do not.”

    I lose track of time. You’re probably the alert reader I referred to 😀

  52. Boorach says:

    Munguins is reporting that STV will be broadcasting a debate tomorrow Thurs 16th May with Nicola and Michael Moore to be streamed live at 

  53. Doug says:

    Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
    15 May, 2013 at 4:22 pm

    “No link anymore to National Collective in your “Scottish Politics” list?”
    Yeah, fuck ‘em.
    Out of curiosity, how so?

  54. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Out of curiosity, how so?”

    Och, just a long string of petty irritations and rudeness that finally got too much on a day when too many people were making me cranky. Daft kids don’t know any better. They get plenty of traffic anyway, they don’t need the help. Will free up a link slot for someone else, just need to decide who to put in.

  55. Jeannie says:

    I have to say I’m now quite heartened looking at that video of the 1997 debate.  It’s noticeable that the Yes side seem young, bright, creative, innovative, enthusiastic and positive with a sense of Springtime about them whereas the No side seem old, jaded, miserable, negative and stuck in the past.  And the Yes side won!  Maybe there’s a lesson there for us, especially when we have our down times, when we feel exhausted, sickened by the negativity of the No camp and wonder what the point is – the positive argument and the positive attitude won the day and the scaremongers failed.  We need to offer people  that sense of a new dawn, a new Spring and a new country and remind people how they felt in 1997 after a Yes Yes vote.

  56. HandandShrimp says:

    Och, just a long string of petty irritations and rudeness that finally got too much.
    Verily the interblogs is a jungle (and that is just the people we like)

  57. HandandShrimp says:

    What is incredible is how the No Scotland side have pulled the same arguments down off the shelf without even the courtesy of a dust down.  

  58. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Verily the interblogs is a jungle (and that is just the people we like)”

    I wouldn’t overplay it – like I said, they just annoyed me enough that I’d rather give someone else a little boost who needs it more. They haven’t turned into Better Nation or anything. But lordy, how fast do people notice links disappearing? That was within about an hour.

  59. MajorBloodnok says:

    O/T  Business for Scotland and YES Scotland
    Following up MacSenex’s comment above there will be a Business for Scotland event in Edinburgh on 20 June.

    And whilst I’m on there will be a YES Scotland Edinburgh South launch event on 24 May (next week) at Newbattle Terrace:

    Guest speakers at the Edinburgh South event will include:

    Craig Murray, (Former Ambassador and Rector of Dundee University)
    Jim Eadie MSP (Scottish National Party)
    Margo MacDonald MSP (Independent)
    Alison Johnstone MSP (Scottish Green Party)
    Colin Fox (SSP National Spokesperson)
    Celia Fitzgerald (Labour for Independence)
    Tommy Shepherd (Former Assistant General Secretary of the Scottish Labour Party)

    Should be interesting – I’m hoping Morag will come along just to have a pop at Craig. I’ll hold the coats.

  60. AmadeusMinkowski says:

    @Rev @Doug
    petty irritations and rudeness that finally got too much. Daft kids don’t know any better.”
    Rev: Unity of Purpose should be foremost in the mind of all who seek a YES vote. I’m sure that there can be detente with those young uns, and there are definitely readers here who would be happy to mediate. There is strength in diversity of approaches and opinions on the way towards YES.
    Doug: Please reflect on the offensive/dismissive language you have used regarding National Collective. There recent high profile take-down/expose of Mr Taylor’s dirty money was of significant value to the YES cause; not withstanding Rev’s valiant contribution there too. Note that others here were mocking the self-defeating divisions within Better Together via the Monty Python “Judean People’s Front” analogy. I’m sure you would certainly not want readers of Wings to believe that its YES contributors are falling into the same trap.

  61. AmadeusMinkowski says:

    And I’ll bring the boxing gloves! 😉

  62. Doug says:

    AmadaeusMinkowski – re: your last
    “Out of curiosity, how so?” were my words.  The rest was a verbatim quote of RevStu.

    Indeed, I enjoy the NC output very much.

  63. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Indeed, I enjoy the NC output very much.”

    Me too. No division as far as I’m concerned, it’s still a top-quality site. But it doesn’t need a link, and it’s never linked back here. The “daft kids” line was meant to convey that I’m just a cantankerous old man and that it wasn’t a big deal, so can we not go on about it? If anyone really wants to keep discussing the subject, please take it to Quarantine.

  64. tartanpigsy says:
    Whichever link you go to the important message is the same, when you look at this video from 97 and look at how the MSM are trying to switch everybody off to the call and lure of Yes. This Saturday Glasgow is the place to be. This is the second Illuminate the Debate rally and 4th event in total (I think) directed mainly at the behemoth which is the BBC and their attempts to sabotage our country’s return to the normality that is Independence.
    Please folks unless you’ve got a hell of a good excuse (such as canvassing/leafleting for your local Yes group) get yourselves to this rally, encourage others to do likewise. We might all be aware of exactly what’s going on in the MSM but there are a lot of potential, even wannabe Yes voters who are having the debate they require stolen from them. We are also still sitting on a few thousand great leaflets which explain what’s going on to the uninitiated and include links to articles on WoS, Newsnet and National Collective (they don’t reply to me either Stu).
    So lets make Saturday mornings easy on the good Rev. If we are all out campaigning, canvassing or alerting the Scottish public to the crap they are being drip fed by the usual suspects, he’ll get a good lie in and be twice as acidic on what the likes of Gardham are serving up for us to read later in the day.

  65. ronald alexander mcdonald says:

    I was at the Business for Scotland seminar last night. Excellent presentation from Gordon. He has forwarded the presentation. Can be used, but not copied.
    Stu if you email me I will forward on and you can forward  to all who request.
    Great presentation at it handles all of the scaremongering stories in an easy to understand manner (for punters) bearing in mind it’s an economic presentation.
    The theme is we can’t affoard not to be Independent. Also confirms the amounts the Fed and Australians bailed out the UK banks. Biggest was Barclays-not RBS!      

  66. lumilumi says:

    Thanks to the alert reader (BillyBigBaws?), and then to Rev Stu for posting this debate from 1997. I watched it through, though it froze on me several times (usually when Jim Wallace was speaking – is that an omen?)
    Well, well, well, what can I say. Some things never change… The No-No campaign were right about one thing but all the other scare-stories have been proved wrong. The sky didn’t fall, Scotland wasn’t marginalised (got a bigger voice, if anything), investment didn’t stop, the Scottish economy is doing rather better than the rUK economy, health care, social care, welfare, education are all doing better than rUK.
    The only thing the no-nos got right was that a devolved parliament is the slippery slope towards independence.
    After a decade and a half of devolution and a Scottish Prliament, Scots are beginning to be more self-confident about themselves politically (I read it somewhere that Scots trust Holyrood more than Westminster, sorry that I can’t find that link right now). The first LabLib coalitions delivered some good things (when the economy was booming), and after 2007 the SNP minority government delivered even more (even at at time when the UK economy went bust), and good governance, not in thrall to Westminster, just doing their own thing for the benefit of the people in Scotland. They were rewarded with the 2011 landslide.
    Thanks to the Scottish Parliament, many Scots have realised that they have their own country and their own say, and they can do better than the rUK with their own  (PR) Parliament, which is much more left-leaning than anything (FPTP) Westminster elections can produce. rUK is looking to the US for their political model (and policies) while many Scots are wondering about the common weal and the Scandinavian model. I’d say few Scots would think about these things if it wasn’t for the Scottish Parliament.
    I found the polls in that clip interesting. If I remember correctly, 67% were yes-yes, 11% undecided, the rest no-no (And the audience was definitely yes-yes!). On another question, 42% thought devolution would lead to the break-up of the UK (i.e. Scottish independence), 6% thought no, and a whopping 53% ‘didn’t know’. Many of the 42% must’ve been no-no’ers fearing the thing, but many must’ve been pro-independence people wishing for the thing. The 53% is the interesting figure, many of them would be the ‘don’t know’s’ now. Today, DKs amount to about 20%, with NO slightly ahead of YES. I think the Scottish Parliament and successive Scottish Executives (unambitious Lab moniker) and Scottish Governments (ambitious SNP designation) have proved their case. Scots can actually do this thing! Be an independent nation again! Take a place in the international scene as their own country, a rich and fair country.
    I despair if Scotland votes NO. It means NO Scotland.
    Vote NO, get nothing.
    Vote YES, get a country.

  67. Caroline Corfield says:

    David Milligan – a very Sovereign Scot says:
    15 May, 2013 at 12:41 pm

    The CBI have only about 100 members in Scotland, why are they listened to?
    I think you’ll find that’s dozens of members, David 🙂

  68. Juteman says:

    I can remember the excitement of ’97. Yes posters in my workplace, and it seemed that everyone had a ‘YES’ pin badge. The establishment will remember it too, hence their efforts to bore us all to death. The last thing the No bodies want is a sense of rising excitement and optimism.

  69. Jiggsbro says:

    I think you’ll find that’s dozens of members, David
    I think you’ll find it’s ‘more than a dozen’. 😀

  70. benarmine says:

    You could free up another space with subrosa, some pretty odd stuff and links from there I can tell you. or put it in comic relief, it could pass as funny. The ’97 debate is great, hopefully we can regain such fair comment a year from now.

  71. BillyBigbaws says:

    @ Jeannie,
    It’s a great idea to cut the debate down into shorter, more digestible clips, and even insert modern examples of the same scare stories that were used in ’97 (and indeed ’79). 

    I’ve been meaning to do it for a while now, got the original downloaded and all, but my computer’s in an awkward place for video production right now.  It’ll probably take about a fortnight till I can get it done.

    For another example of unchanging retro scaremongering against independence, here’s a skulking Mr. Hyde-like Andrew Neil from 1979, telling us all that oil is bad for a country’s economy (sure I first saw it posted here anyway, but it’s a classic and bears repeating):

  72. AmadeusMinkowski says:

    Please accept my unreserved apology. I now see that the expletive did not originate from you.

  73. Jim Mitchell says:

    What I remember most about the First Referendum was all the duplicity that went on.
    40% rule, names of people appearing on electoral registers who had been dead for over a 100 years, which because they couldn’t be used or for some strange reason removed, counted as a No vote, people in Glasgow who had garages on the other side of the road from their homes  suddenly getting two votes but only being allowed to use one, which, because their name was also at the ‘second address’, their home vote was cancelled out due to the fact that if you didn’t or couldn’t use your vote i.e. the one for the garage, it counted as a NO vote.
    the usually reliable electoral registers being all to pot and strangely very difficult to change!
    OAP’s who had voted Labour all their lives and who depended on them for transport to the polls, being left behind, because an unused vote counted as a NO vote.
    All in all it was an affront to democracy and totally unionist!

  74. AmadeusMinkowski says:

    Brilliant idea to generate a collage of Scare Stories from the past, and juxtapose them with their eerily reminiscent modern counterpart. I wrote earlier in the thread about “The Ghost of Referendum Past”, playing on the analogy with “The Ghost of Referendum Past”. Perhaps you can title your clips “Scaremongerings of Referendums Past” ! Good luck with the effort, and can’t wait to see the outputs.

  75. Jim Mitchell says:

    Forgot to add, i believe that that is what we should be keeping uppermost in our minds rather than the debate mentioned above!

  76. G. Campbell says:

    Jim Wallace, 1997: “What Scots must ask themselves is – do we, as Scots, have the courage to vote for a parliament which is truly powerful, which can stand up for Scottish interests, which is truly accountable to the people of Scotland, or are we so in thrall to Westminster that we won’t even trust ourselves with the power to tax?”

    Jim Wallace, 2013: “In thrall, mate.”

  77. AmadeusMinkowski says:

    @Jim Mitchell
    Your description of the duplicity of the No Campaign of 1979  provides an invaluable historical perspecitive. Its so good to have that experience on board as we look to build an unassailable  YES vote on 18th Sep. 2014.

  78. Jeannie says:

    Does anyone know why the video won’t come up anymore?  Just says an error has occurred.  Tried it on Youtube directly, but getting the same message.

  79. tartanpigsy says:

    This Saturday 2pm text this message

  80. HandandShrimp says:

    CBI Scotland have a Chair that is died in the wool Unionist and the media like that very much. If he was as fervently Yes inclined I think his words would be seen less often. Not all CBI members share his views.

  81. Jeannie says:

    Just tried again on the Youtube page that has this video.  There’s another one further down which is also about a studio debate on the 1997 referendum and it’s got the same message.  Oddly, there are other videos of more recent debates there too and there’s no problem getting into them – problem only with the 1997 ones.  What’s that about?

  82. mogabee says:

    I’m having the same problem trying to view video, tried everything but keep getting error message. Help!!

  83. Thistle says:

    Good to see a couple of posts on here from people who attended the Business for Scotland meeting in Glasgow. I was also there and really enjoyed the event especially the number of times fairer society was mentioned.
    I will be going to the Illuminate the Debate on Saturday and if possible get to the anti bedroom tax demo George Square which I think starts at 11:30.
    Yes 2014 🙂

  84. AmadeusMinkowski says:

    @ tartanpigsy
    Which message?

  85. cynicalHighlander says:

    Jeannie & mogabee
    Works for me but it does stop now and again and I had to reload then FF to where it froze.

  86. Cath says:

    Fascinating. Almost nothing changes apart from where some Labour and Lib Dem politicians are sitting (oh and Thatcher no longer being “a living monument” 🙂 )
    Salmond is incredibly consistent and could say exactly the same now as he did then.
    One odd thing though: 3 for the yes/yes team and 3 for the no/no team. Why no one arguing for yes/no?

  87. mealer says:

    I cant get the video to play.

  88. Morag says:

    We won in 1997, with a cross-party Yes campaign and the media giving both sides of the argument a fair hearing.  Now, we have all three “main” (in BBC UK speak) parties vehemently backing No, and the entire media ranged as one to rubbish Yes and hype up No.
    So I don’t think we can read too many parallels.

  89. Caroline Corfield says:

    Jiggsbro says:
    15 May, 2013 at 5:57 pm

    I think you’ll find that’s dozens of members, David
    I think you’ll find it’s ‘more than a dozen’. 

      lol, yes once again I lounge in my chair corrected! 

  90. lumilumi says:

    jeannie @ 7.24 – Yeah, I tried to watch it again but it seems to have been pulled. I’m no conspiracy theorist, maybe it’s a copyright issue which came up now that more people were accessing it -> alerted STV.
    It was interesting and instructive to see what the usual suspects were saying in ’97, and compare it to what they’re saying in 2013. As far as I can see, Alex Salmond is the only one that still says the same message. Well, he doesn’t go on about the Poll Tax so much, but other than that, the message is clear: Scottish independence for the benefit of the people in Scotland. (Even back in ’97, Salmond didn’t say ‘Scots’, he said ‘people in Scotland’ – it was the no-no people who were getting rabid about the Scotch being anti-English.)
    As somebody said right at the beginning of this comment thread: aww, baby-faced Salmond! But he was a force to be reckoned with, even back then.
    I first became aware of the SNP and Alex Salmond in 1992, when the biggest Finnish daily (a broadsheet quality paper) did a double page spread about Scotland. I still have the clippings, they’d interviewed Alex Salmond and a couple of SNP youth wing people, Stewart Hosie and Shona Robinson. The idea was that now that so many eastern European countries (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania etc.) were becoming independent, why shouldn’t Scotland?
    I’d just lived 6 months in Scotland and loved it, but never thought anything political (I was a twentysomething so of course the next good party or the opposite sex were far more important), and none of my Scots friends did either. The only political stance was hating Thatcher and the Tories.
    Alas, nowadays the Finnish press/broadcast media report next to nothing about Scotland and the political situation there, and the little they do, is based on BBC, London-based press, maybe a glance at Herald and Scotsman. I’m sure if Finns knew the truth, they’d be behind Scotland all the way in solidarity (Few countries have a bigger and nastier neighbour than Finland, and I’m not talking about Sweden here.)
    If Scotland votes YES, I’m sure all EU countries and UN countries will welcome the independent Scotland. What’s not to like? Rich, industrialised, post-industrialised, highly-educated, democratic, oodels of natural resources, ground-breaking, modern policies to shift from the North Sea oil to renewables. A country that looks to the future. And Scotland is already known the world over: whisky, bagpipes, kilts. That’s a global brand (one that modern Scots might want to change, but if it’s working in your favour…).
    Scotland has the chance of being one of the best wee countries in the world, and if Scots don’t grab their chance….
    Well, they deserve everything the Westminster governments will do to them and their children and grandchildren and their country.

  91. scottish_skier says:

    Ms Dorries told the BBC News Channel: “I’m not actually saying that people should change their allegiance from the Conservatives to UKIP. I’m saying the contrary: that to stop Labour getting back into power in 2015, we need to look at imaginative ideas.

    First signs of a UKIP-Tory pact?

    Nadine Dorries chimes well with many Tory and UKIP voters. Dave let her back in because of this.


    Cool devo debate stuff – was very interesting looking back over the old poll etc on the BBC pages.

  92. Jamie Arriere says:

    @Jeannie at 1.30pm
    You’re right – he looked familiar to me too. I think it was Peter Duncan, who I think took a turn at being the only Tory in Scotland between 2001 and 2005 for down Dumfries way. It’s funny that even all those years ago the only Tories they could find to ask questions were high-ranking party men…

  93. The Rough Bounds says:

    Crikey! That video clip with Andrew Neil. He looked like some kind of half human praying mantis. Scarey.
    Nowadays he’s just a big fat sneering lard ball with a chip on his shoulder. He’ll probably eat it.

  94. Laura says:

    I think it’s STV not Newsnight

  95. MajorBloodnok says:

    Thanks lumilumi – I’m always comparing Scotland with Finland to Unionists I’m working on and asking, “With the population more or less the same, what does Finland have that Scotland doesn’t?”
    “Natural resources!” they shout, and then after I’ve stared at them at bit with my eyebrow raised they realise how stupid they are.
    Personally, I’m looking forward to Scotland taking its rightful place amongst the best small countries in the world: Finland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Austria, New Zealand, Lebanon, Jamaica…. (there’s a lot).

  96. AmadeusMinkowski says:

    AmadeusMinkowski says:
    15 May, 2013 at 8:51 pm
    Correction to NEWSFLASH:

    Sturgeon versus Moore
    16/05/2013 at 10.30
    on Scotland Tonight

    @Laura: Thanks for the correction!

  97. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    Video still works fine for me in both Firefox and Chrome. Tried to download a copy for safekeeping but there’s some kind of DRM on it, because everyone on Earth is trying to piss me off today.

  98. turnip_ghost says:

    I have just finished watching it and it was incredible. I wasn’t even aware of the politics going on around me in 97 (I would only have been 14!) but watching that has made me realise that we are on the right track. It’s all the same arguments being used against us now…I can’t wait for the debates!

  99. Jim Mitchell says:

    @  AmadeusMinkowski, Do you know your the second one on this site who has connected me with history? lol
    Have you been talking to my grandkids?
    Actually and very seriously, that first referendum opened the eyes of even a lot of us (at the time) younger Nat’s as to just how far the forces of darkness could and would go to protect the status quo, with no complaining from any on the unionist side.
    I became a nat for life following it, the reference to the OAP’s was a personal one, they were folk who I and many in the local branch of the Labour party had known for decades, the original type of Labour supporters and they used them by abandoning them!
    I am surprised at nothing they come up with now a days.
    I am trusting that next year a lot of pigeons are coming home to roost where they are concerned.BTW strange thing but I could only find one mention of the great Gordon Brown’s speech between the Better Together web site and  their Facebook page, do you think that there already hoping that folk have forgotten it?

  100. Morag says:

    I seem to remember watching it at the time, though God knows how because I was living in England at the time.  Did they show it in England?
    I remember being nervous about how the vote would turn out, but never incandescent that the Yes campaign was being completely shafted by the media as is happening now.

  101. Jim Mitchell says:

    We have to remember of course that the unionist view was that Holyrood would be run for ever by Labour and Lib-Dems, which is to say, the same thing as Westminster.
    They never dreamt that the SNP would take over completely far less that a referendum would pop up, they are now fighting for their very existence,  I don’t think the fear that they feel can be over emphasised, it should make them even more careless, it will certainly male them prepared to resort to almost anything.
    We have to be prepared for anything!

  102. Lori says:

    great comments from people here… is another link to a social website where you can live chat , upload content and there is a radio on site also , where the  hosts try to find solutions to the farse that government have implemented us into while shafting us completely!     look forward to your future posts x

  103. Jeannie says:

    Just watched it again.  Amazing.  Mr. Jeannie’s amazed too.  I wonder if Cathy Peattie is still concerned about the democratic deficit of Scotland being ruled by the Tories when we didn’t vote for them – that was clearly an issue for her at the time. 
    Couldn’t help comparing the performances of Salmond, Dewar and Wallace to Johann Lamont, Willie Rennie and Ruth Davidson.  It would make you weep.  And couldn’t help comparing the professional presentation and management of the debate with what we get nowadays.  Tomorrow night’s debate will be interesting.
    I’m no fan of Jim Wallace these days, but he was impressive in that debate.

  104. The Man in the Jar says:

    I see Mr. Farage is gracing us with his presence tomorrow.

  105. The Man in the Jar says:

    @turnip ghost
    Your comment reminds me that there are many indi supporters that have not experienced a referendum before. Makes me feel old. 😉

  106. Doug says:

    I was 14 when this was happening. Even then I had wanted to see an independence option 🙂

  107. AmadeusMinkowski says:

    @Jim Mitchell
    Next time I’ll use the word Wisdom, and not refer to time!
    As for Brown and the Westminster Labour minions, they all seem to me to be ensnared by the trappings of Westminster and their ambitions there. The result is irrational, untruthful double-speak, and most of all NO VISION.
    I earlier proposed a new twitter hash-tag to expose the self serving nature of  “Brown plc”;

    Any other suggestions or ideas welcome. I think this might catch on!

  108. Graeme McCormick says:

    Fiona Hyslop not well briefed tonight on Newsnight. She should have seen the obvious question re currency union with rUK if it votes to leave EU and we stay in.

    It is perfectly possible for this to continue. Greenland is outside the EU while Denmark is in and both use the Danish Kroner.

    Personally I think the currency union is transitional. if rUK votes to leave the EU then Scotland will have time to choose it’s own currency and abandon a sinking ship created by the Faragesters

  109. molly says:

    Rev, in order to give you 10 mins breathing space a week, could we perhaps have “Prediction Thursday”. As a tribute to our esteemed state broadcaster BBC Scotland and em leaders of the opposition can I predict tomorrows FMQs will consist of 
    1. EU legal advice
    not necessarily in that order as sometimes the questions appear to written by Dr Seuss , 

  110. pmcrek says:

    Heh still think we should use Sterling but only for a couple of years until we set up our own currency called “Stirling”.

  111. Barontorc says:

    On NNS, at long last we have the BBC Trust severely criticising BBC Scotland for manipulating the news and taking excessive time to answer complaints from the public.
    Boothman and MacQuarrie are well under the cosh! Pile in laddies and lassies – tell it as it is!

  112. Yesitis says:

    You know the argument …”Would you vote for a union with England knowing of all the things you would hand over, or sacrifice…”
    Well, do you believe the BBC in Scotland deliver impartial coverage of the referendum debate?
    Let`s have a televised debate regarding TV bias?
    After all, it is kind of important 🙂

  113. Stuart Black says:

    Astonishing photo of Johann Lamont attending the opening of a new food bank in Aberdeen, the centrepiece appears to be a case of Irn-Bru and two large packets of crisps. Cutting edge nutrition, eh?

    Shameful in this day and age, not the Irn-Bru, the need for food banks.

  114. Stuart Black says:

    That might be frozen peas on the left, to be fair, to the left of Lamont…

  115. Desimond says:

    Colin Fox (SSP National Spokesperson)
    Celia Fitzgerald (Labour for Independence)
    Tommy Shepherd (Former Assistant General Secretary of the Scottish Labour Party)

    Poor Tommy…hasnt he been through enough without that embarrassing past being brought up again!

  116. Gordon Bain says:

    O/T Sorry….
    Radio Scotland GMS this morning reporting the Irish and Canadians are weighing in. Good news and about time my Canadian brothers got involved.
    Hail Alba!

  117. Scotbud says:

    Have been a long time lurker on this sight for some time, finding it a fantastic alternative media sight. Just had to comment after seeing Lamont at the launch of a food bank in Aberdeen, in a country like Scotland which is rich in vast resources it is a scandal that this is happening. We are going backwards under this corrupt Westminster Government wee Johann looks so happy as if this is progress. Waken up Scotland this is our future if we vote no.
    VOTE YES in 2014

  118. muttley79 says:

    Welcome Scotbud.

  119. Stuart Black says:

    Hi Scotbud, crazy isn’t it?

  120. The Man in the Jar says:

    I initially got excited by this article regarding BBC Scotland complaints on newsnetscotland but reading it is disappointing. It is mostly about a complaint regarding the science centre in Glasgow. It is a small step in the right direction but seems trivial compared to what we all know to be an utter scandal.

  121. Macart says:

    Howdy Scotbud and welcome.
    I don’t think Johann sees a direct link between Westminster governance and the need for food banks. Had the economy been even halfway decently handled in the past forty years we’d never even have heard the name.

  122. Macart says:

    Not the most exciting I’ll agree, but it is a precedent. Boothman and the Beeb have had a public slap in the kisser and don’t look just so untouchable anymore.

  123. The Man in the Jar says:

    I reckon that Boothman is so arrogant that he will treat the findings with the contempt that (he thinks) it deserves. I have my doubts but we can only hope that it is the beginning of the unravelling of Boothmans wee Unionist Empire.

  124. Dcanmore says:

    @Stuart Black … 
    If we return to poorhouses Lamont would be there cutting the ribbon thinking it would be a good thing. Not only does she put Scotland down with relentless negativity and a can’t-do attitude, she finds no shame in foodbanks. Lamont is a fucking menace and works against a society that’s trying to remain decent under imposed hardship which she supports. She is exactly the sort of Orwellian prole that looks up to corrupt Westminster elites such as Blair, Darling, Broon, Alexander and Murphy with servitude and blind faith. An absolute disgrace to the Scottish people of whom she is suppose to represent.

  125. Laura says:

    Scotbud, Couldn’t agree more.
    Imagine any politician standing proudly at the opening of a food bank – of course I’m sure she won’t lose the opportunity of telling them all that this is the fault of the SNP/Alex Salmond etc.

    Regarding the crisps and fizzy drinks, this is pretty poor but reckon these will be donations from large companies.

  126. The Man in the Jar says:

    Regarding Lamont I don’t see her lasting to the referendum. Shame because she is a gift to independence. The closer it gets the more Labour will panic. They aren’t exactly showing unity right now. The knifes will come out eventually.

  127. Macart says:

    Works for me. First a chip, then a crack……

  128. Scotbud says:

    Thanks guys for the welcome, have to agree with you Macart she will probably blame AS as usual and yes Stuart it has been crazy for far to long. Always like to watch FMQs when i can, Lamont’s performance always seems to cheer me up.

  129. ianbrotherhood says:

    When did the ‘Better Together’ ad start appearing at the bottom of the video? Anyone notice?

  130. The Man in the Jar says:

    Welcome Scotbud. Even masochists are welcome here. “Always like to watch FMQs when i can, Lamont’s performance always seems to cheer me up.” 😉

  131. Macart says:

    Aye, she is a bit of a broken record on that score. Look forward to the day when we see a smiling local Scottish politician wreck a food bank because the ground is being broken for a new college of engineering excellence, or a school or in fact anything which shows a locale is growing.

  132. bunter says:

    Yeah Ive had the Bitter Together ad appearing too. Very strange.

  133. Scotbud says:

    Hi  Laura i am ashamed that this is happening in our country, and yes she will blame this on AS and the SNP the woman disgusts me.

  134. Gordon Bain says:

    The video doesn’t work on iOS either.

  135. AmadeusMinkowski says:

    Great to have you on board. Spread the word to friends and family to check out alternative sources like Wings. The important thing for Scotland is that she is given the chance to make there decision based on Truths, not Falsehoods. The MSM and BBC are proving themselves instruments of powerfull vested interests. However, the Light is stronger than the Darkness, so don’t hide your light under a bushel!

  136. Scotbud says:

    Thanks Amadeus have been spreading the word since the seventies then Independence seemed like a dream. I always believed though that we would get there in the end, have been laughed at ridiculed but never gave up in my believe that we would be stronger in an Independent Scotland. That dream became a reality in 2011, we now have the chance to change the injustices done by a wasteful Westminster Gov. I have converted a few who are undecided just giving them the facts steering them to web sites like this one.

  137. lumilumi says:

    @MajorBloodnok, 9.24 (yesterday, 15.5.13)
    My joke to my Scottish friends is that Finland is doing so well because of all that Baltic Sea oil. 😀
    OK, Finland has no oil or gas, Finland has little in renewable energy. It’s a flat country = not much hydro, the Baltic has no tides, Finland isn’t as windy as Scotland. Much of the country is a bog. Finland is best suited to grow trees and hay. (Trees and hay, in Finnish ‘puuta heinää’, means ‘nonsense’, my biology/geography teacher in high school started with that when explaining Finnish agriculture.)
    Finland’s best resource is the well- and highly-educated population. Everybody goes to school for 9 years (6 yrs primary + 3 yrs lower secondary) and just about everybody goes to school for 3 more years (upper secondary), either a vocational school or an academic high school. The vocational schools produce hairdressers and electricians, junior accountants and car mechanics etc. Academic high schools prepare students for our version of Highers/Advanced Highers, which qualify them to apply to university. Nowadays many vocational schools offer highers as well, so the graduates can apply to polytechincs (they call themselves universities of applied science nowadays, they give Bachelor’s degrees). All this is free, no tuition fees.
    I went to a bog standrard suburban high school. When I was finishing my first 9 years and having to apply to an academic high school, my parents didn’t really give a toss, they thought any school would be as good as the next one, and if she wants to go to the same school as most of her friends, fine.
    In my high school, maybe 1/4 were from well-off middle class families, 1/4 from poor working class families, the rest somewhere in between. It didn’t matter to us, we were all mates. Well, the better-off, who lived in houses (not flats, terraced houses or semis) hosted the parties for everyone. We had some wonderful, inspiring teachers (All teachers in Finland have a Master’s degree. And pupils and teachers are on first name terms) and almost all of us went on to do well: uni, college, trainee for a career.
    When I applied to go to that high school, the grade point average to get in was 7.3. (Finnish school grading is 4 (fail) to 10 (excellent)). You had to have an average of 7 to apply to any academic high school. Nowadays, you can’t get into my old high school unless your year 9 leaving cert has a grade point average of 9 or more!!! I’m glad I was there when it was a more varied school, dumkopfs and clever clogs, rich and poor all together.
    One of the reasons why Finland has been a successful small independent country is our egalitarian, free education. There aren’t fee-paying private schools to breed a class of ‘entitled’ tossers in Finland. Even the rich send their kids to the local school because they know it’s a good school. (Finland tops PISA year on year.) The rich and the poor kids mingle and become friends, and later on these old schoolyard friendships result in social cohesion and the social contract. Common weal. Rich people are prepared to pay higher taxes to help the less well-off. They went to school with the other half, didn’t they?

  138. lumilumi says:

    Oh, and one more thing. It was a Scotsman by the name of James Finlayson, who brought the industrial revolution to Finland.
    He visited Tampere, saw the potential of Tammerkoski falls, set up a cotton factory and kick-started the industrial revolution in Finland.
    Finlayson is still a household name in Finland. Good quality bed linen, towels, soft furnishings. A relative of mine used to design printed fabrics for Finlayson and most Finnish homes have her designs: duvet covers, pillowcases, table cloths, curtains…
    Few Finns who’re fans of ‘Finlayssoni” are aware of the Scots connection. I, of course, try to enlighten them.

  139. Mark says:

    The video doesn’t seem now to work. Does anyone have another link?

  140. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “The video doesn’t seem now to work. Does anyone have another link?”

    What are you trying to watch it on?

  141. BillyBigbaws says:

    AmadeusMinkowski said:  “I wrote earlier in the thread about “The Ghost of Referendum Past”, playing on the analogy with “The Ghost of Referendum Past”. Perhaps you can title your clips “Scaremongerings of Referendums Past” ! Good luck with the effort, and can’t wait to see the outputs.”
    I like it!  Nice title.  Could maybe cut it together with bits of A Christmas Carol too, where appropriate.  Maybe A Muppets Christmas Coarol.  The only problem is that Better Together seem to think they are the guardians of all copyright on Youtube, not just their own.

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