The roll of dishonour
In a post earlier today we quoted some extracts from the political memoirs of former Labour Prime Minister, James Callaghan, on the subject of the infamous 1979 vote of no confidence which resulted from his government overturning the Yes result of the Scottish devolution referendum that year, as a result of a Labour MP’s amendment to the bill which meant that it required an effectively impossible threshold for a Yes vote.
Callaghan said of the amendment:
He blamed the rebels on his own benches, rather than the SNP, for ultimately bringing about the collapse of his government and opening the door to the victory of the Conservatives under Margaret Thatcher. And we’ve often wondered who they were.
The names are buried in the vaults of history, but we did some digging and found out. If you’ve got an afternoon to spare one day we heartily recommend reading some of the transcripts from Hansard of the devolution bill’s progression through Parliament, particularly here, here and here, in which you’ll spot some rather familiar arguments:
But the last of those links contains the fateful vote on 25 January 1978, more than a year before the referendum. Hansard doesn’t tell you which party MPs represent or (usually) which seat, but we went through the list of 161 Ayes and tracked them down.
There was a single Liberal (Richard Wainwright, Colne Valley), 126 Conservatives and Ulster Unionists, and 34 “rebel” Labour MPs who dedicated themselves to ensuring that Scotland wouldn’t get devolution even if it voted Yes (as it did), thereby making a no-confidence vote to all intents and purposes inevitable.
These, then, not the 11 SNP MPs who backed that vote of no confidence in March 1979, are the people James Callaghan names as those who really opened the door to Margaret Thatcher.
Labour Ayes for 40% rule amendment (bold: Scottish constituencies)
Leo Abse (Pontypool)
Sydney Bidwell (Southall)
Betty Boothroyd (West Bromwich)
Lewis Carter-Jones (Eccles)
Maureen Colquhoun (Northampton North)
George Cunningham (Islington South)
Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow)
Joseph Dean (Leeds West)
Peter Doig (Dundee West)
Bruce Douglas-Mann (Mitcham and Morden)
Ioan Evans (Aberdare)
Martin Flannery (Sheffield Hillsborough)
Ted Fletcher (Darlington)
Ted Garrett (Wallsend)
Helene Hayman (Welwyn and Hatfield)
Eric Heffer (Liverpool Walton)
Robert Hughes (Aberdeen North)
Adam Hunter (Dunfermline)
Alexander Lyon (York)
Joan Maynard (Sheffield Brightside)
John Mendelson (Penistone)
Eric Moonman (Basildon)
Stanley Newens (Harlow)
Eric Ogden (Liverpool West Derby)
Arthur Palmer (Bristol North East)
John Parker (Barking Dagenham)
Josephine Richardson (Barking)
Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry North West)
George Rodgers (Chorley)
Renee Short (Wolverhampton North East)
Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)
Leslie Spriggs (St Helens)
Ronald Thomas (Bristol North West)
Audrey Wise (Coventry South West)
Amendment carried, 166 votes to 151
Well, well, well! Who’d have thought Dennis Skinner of all people would have been one of the ones to lay the ground for Thatcherism?
Makes you wonder if there’s a bit of guilt behind some of his more passionate displays in the Commons…
The Truth is Out There!
This must be the ‘democracy’ the BBC was slavering about yesterday!
I used to like Dennis Skinner, now, not so much.
Good digging Rev. I see that a Dundee West representative is on that list. That won’t be happening again. We’ll see to it.
Then as now Labour MPs happy to conspire with the Tories against Scotland, plus ca change etc.
For thirty six years and with the help of their ever present and ever reliable media chums, Labour in Scotland have perpetrated one of the greatest lies ever told to the Scottish electorate and smeared completely unfairly a party who to the point of the devolution vote, supported Labour on many occasions. The utter myth that was the ‘Tartan Tory’. That Thatcher’s reign was all the fault of the SNP. How many elections has this mantra been rolled out on in order to win a vote? How many minds have been turned against a better way or a better government because of this bullshit?
Then and now they simply could not and would not accept responsibility for their own actions, their own failures. That’s the thing about the truth though, it never, but never, stays buried. It’ll always come back to haunt you at some point.
They betrayed their own party. They betrayed their own electorate. They betrayed, smeared and literally framed a one time ally and all to avoid responsibility.
Whatever else happens in May, I hope our electorate makes them pay for every single day of those lost years.
A list of shame. Our disgusting imperial masters.
[…] In a post earlier today we quoted some extracts from the political memoirs of former Labour Prime Minister, James Callaghan, on the subject of the infamous 1979 vote of no confidence which resulted from his government overturning the Yes result of the Scottish devolution referendum that year, as a result of an amendment to the bill which required an effectively impossible threshold for a Yes vote. […]
To give Dennis Skinner his due he was afraid that Scottish devolution would fatally weaken the left wing of the Labour Party. As it happened even without devolution the left wing influence in the Labour Party faded and died, except in a few small pockets. Peter Doig, who I knew, was another who believed in the solidarity of the working class though he rarely voted against the party.
Apparently,English MPs don’t want to be held to account by SNP MPs after the next election,but this looks to me like English/RUK constituency MPs voting on Scotlands future,whether we liked it or not.
Very interesting reading. Thanks Rev.
I recognise many of those names. This list should be spread far and wide to ensure the electorate are shown that it was Labour’s own members who let Thatcher in. 🙁
I’m going to be lurking behind my front door from now until the vote.
Just waiting for the chance to off load some home truths. (imagine evil grin smiley face)
Tam Dalyell was my MP growing up.
Gordon Brown is my current one.
Help what is wrong with me?
First class digging. Tales to tell then. I expected Dalyell but not the others
I see Tam Dalyell in that list. No surprise there he always was ultra establishment.
He was only carrying on a family tradition for it was one of his ancestors also (Lieutenant – General)Tam Dalyell who was the Colonel of the Scots Greys which were initially raised to quell civil disorder in Scotland. This in reality was the oppression of the Covenanting movement.
The Scots Greys also fought for the union at Culloden.
link to en.wikipedia.org
Dennis Fucking Skinner.
Both he and Tony Benn, two of the few old Labour MPs I had a lot of time for, fucked Scotland over.
Now would be the perfect time to ask Skinner what he thinks of current Tory plans to amend union strike ballots to carry 40% of the vote if they are to legally go ahead.
Could be interesting.
Doug Daniel says:
21 January, 2015 at 1:46 pm
Well, well, well! Who’d have thought Dennis Skinner of all people would have been one of the ones to lay the ground for Thatcherism?
Makes you wonder if there’s a bit of guilt behind some of his more passionate displays in the Commons…
Aye – always thought Skinner was compensating for something (don’t go there!). If that other passion boy, George Galloway, had been an MP in 1978, would his name also be on that list?
I thought one of those names looked familiar:
From link to theguardian.com
He told the audience Kilfoyle was far from the first Labour big gun to support his cause, recalling how Eric Heffer, Kilfoyle’s predecessor as MP for Liverpool Walton, used to sit behind him when he had a seat in Westminster. “Whenever I made speeches, I used to hear Eric growling behind me: ‘Remember Alex – when Scotland goes, Liverpool’s coming with you!’”
In all those years, did Alex know that Eric had voted to screw us? I expect he did, having an impressive recall of facts and figures. Curious that the former FM was fond of this anecdote – perhaps Eric felt bad about it in later years.
I’m disappointed to see Bob Hughes on the list.
Tam Dalyell is one of the thirty four and continued through the West Lothian Question to pour the oil of confusion into the machinations of Westminster and their response to Scottish Democracy.
He is like a dog with a bone, never letting go the possible difficulties that might ensue in an effort to use them to derail the discussion.
A lot of the arguments that BT used in the Indy Ref are seen in the records of this time and in Canada’s response to their Quebec referendum. A hybrid strategy of both leading to Project Fear!
GE15 bingo cards at the ready as they introduce the same specious arguments regards the inferiority of Scottish decision making to that of our esteemed Masters from the public education system of the English Elite.
Great bit of research, Stu. Very interesting.
With this latest news, The McCrone Report and maritime border deal between Blair and Dewar, the Labour Party are finally exposed as devious anti-Scottish chancers.
Never again can they claim to be the party of devolution!
In truth, it only brought Thatcherism forward by the 7 months left of Labour’s turn.
Thanks Rev. Liars and cheats then, liars and cheats now. Red Tories OUT.
Betty Boothroyd (West Bromwich)…………..ex Speaker…
Well done Stu, you’ve certainly rattled some skeletons today laddie! .
How’s about a funded “Big Red Tory Lies and Deception Vol 1”?.
i and many others here would did deep for a printed edition a’la Wee Blue Book 🙂
@ Luigi
“If that other passion boy, George Galloway, had been an MP in 1978, would his name also be on that list?”
We have it on good authority that George Galloway’s only flag is coloured red.
I suspect Mr Galloway would have voted for what was best for Mr Galloway.
Excellent work Rev’ a nice bit of ferretting.
Tam Dalyell is now hors de combat and putting porage in his ears but no surprise there really. A pseudo socialist, he was no more a Dalyell than I am. Real name Loch, changed to inherit the Binns, his Loch of Drylaw ancestor was chamberlain of the Sutherland estates when the clearances were in full swing under his underling Sellar.
Lovely family.
These last two Articles have made me very angry! My first vote was in 79 followed quickly by the GE and the arrival of Thatcher.
I spent a lot of energy in my student years protesting against the TOries and assisting the Labour argument.
I heard the Tartan Tory jibe often over many many years and even got to know John Smith and his family.
All this time this self same party were responsible for the treachery of the 79 vote and the pillaging of Scotland by Thatcher, the feeble fifty!
Wonder if their sense of guilt made them so ineffectual or their complicity in trying to destroy the SNP and Scottish Democracy made them the conspirators that they were then and still are now!
Quite sickened by the duplicity of them all.
Surprised it’s not a longer list.. Surely they would have included deceased Labour Politicians to vote for the ammendment..
There we have it. 230% Labour Ayes for the 40% rule amendment.. Quick, get that rubber stamped before anyone notices..
@ Lanarkist
Don’t get too upset, many of us fell for it at the time.
What matters, is what we do about it now.
It’s all very well and good digging around all these dusty old facts about the Tories being liars and the Labour Party being liars and the Lib Dems and so on, we know they’re all liars, but at the end of the day they’re only looking after our interests, and we, instead of whingeing all the time have to learn to accept who we are, we’re only Scottish and not inherently or genetically programmed to look after ourselves, it’s a known fact, we’re a little backward, i wish it were different but there you have it, SLOW is what we are and if we don’t vote every SNP candidate into Westminster to try and do something about it then we might as well just accept every bit of Sh.te they continue to dump on us and we’ll deserve it
Dear Stuart,
Can you advise why I seem to be regarded as a new user?
I’ve posted, contributed and received your e-mail notifications for some time now. I’ve also recommended the page to many others. I note also that sometimes I find it difficult to share WoS pieces on my facebook page.
Another example of Labour committing hari kari whitch they do from time to time,infighting in the Labour ranks is nothing new,thats why greasy poles excist.
Irrespective of whether it brought forward the inevitable by 7 months Embradon, the lie of the SNP letting the Tories in and therefore thatcher and their mendacious policies, has and still is cited as the fallback kneejerk excuse from many in Scotland as The reason not to trust the SNP.
My mother being one of those that used this last year as a cover for her brainwashed rhetoric fuelled by years of tuning in to the MSM frequency of fear and loathing of Alex and SNP.
36 years of deceit and planned mythologising of Labour the party of devolutuon.
36 years of impoverishing our own people for the sake of their own self serving greedy troughing.
They are nothing but a shower of bastards.
Time we took charge of our own destiny people. Vote SNP in May to destroy these f***ing parasites.
O/T a bit.
Something I have’nt seen picked up on.
Since the thread is still on Labour’s machinations, remember Stu did a piece on actual Labour Party member numbers. A bit before the Ref.
As I recall, Stu worked it out at about 7000 ish members, that was when you discounted Social Club members. Now, there was a post on James Kelly’s blog, Scot Goes Pop, a couple of weeks ago, commenting on an article. The poster, I could not find it again, commented he had been told by a Labour insider that they had 8500 members in Scotland while claiming 14,000 to 20,000.
Now to get to the good bit, if, as Labour claim, they have 190,000 members in the entire UK, and, I would assume, a higher number of members per head of population in Scotland, we being more to the Left, would, could, it be that you could cut actual member numbers down South by, say, 50% or more, to exclude the Social members there.
So, knock 50% off 190,000 and, voila, you get 95,000 genuine members. SO, might the SNP actually be neck and neck with Labour for membership numbers, or if their numbers are even more exaggerated, ahead, making the SNP the SECOND largest party in the UK.
Hmmm
what to do about it now?
Everyone Vote SNP in GE 2015.
Quite looking forward to SNP voting on English ‘state’ issues
Given yesterdays intervention from Donahoe a rethink on devolved issues are needed, ie Foreign affairs & Defence.
Who sets the agenda Westminster,about time the SNP came out with full atonomy nothing less , ? would it make any differance to the Scottish voters way of thinking given the way Westminster deals with Foreign/Defence both of whitch are a total shambles.
DONAHOE for next Defence Secretary anyone.
What’s that, another list of shame? Not sure if that one tops the lot but it comes close.
Well done for busting that myth Rev. You have to wonder how Labour have managed to con their way into the hearts of Scots for so long … Maybe Dr Jim explains that one at 2.50pm.
Doug Daniel.
(OT ish but still on topic.)
Good letter in the P@J today.
I totally agree with you.Labour have no policies of any kind except “SNP Bad” and even today the same newspaper carries an article on Labour’s secrecy over their energy policies. For Labour Councillors in Aberdeen to call for action from The Scottish Government is risible as they banged the drum loudest for the Union but we are all supposed to forget that.
The chance was there for the taking but the impression I gained in Aberdeenshire was “We’re doing alright as it is”and I suspect that was widespread.
L
@ Sheena W,
You may very well be right Sheena, that some Labour MP’s voted out of some misplaced Socialist ideals,
But the point of this article is surely that while they did so, the Labour Party in Scotland knowingly lied to the electorate and along with the equally dishonest MSM, perpetrated the myth that it was the SNP who opened the door to Thatcherism.
Scotland has been badly let down by liars and backstabbers in both the Labour party, as well as the MSM.
However they are now getting a very bright light shone on them, and they don’t like it.
Revealing, and thanks.
My response to the SNP/Thatcher smear always was that the SNP MPs were there to oppose, and that’s what an opposition does, in the hope of bettering its position at the next poll. It certainly doesn’t vote to prop up a lame duck government.
Labour seems to have forgotten that purpose.
Since the telgraph is reporting Nicola Sturgeon is rescinding the self imposed SNP ban English only votes and any elected SNP MP is free to vote on these issues…there is only one thing to say
Gaun yersell Nicla….o’er the top and right intae them
Latest IPSOS MORI Poll commissioned by STV showing SNP voting intentions at 52%, Labour on 24% – Saviour Jim hasnt made the kind of impression the MSM had quite hoped for despite the wall to wall coverage he has been given.
[…] The roll of dishonour […]
manandboy 3:29pm armed insurgency
Don’t be daft!
The labour party just love telling us how they are the party of devolution. The party of postponing devolution for 18 years more like.
Aye Neil apparently the last poll was flawed as it had leading questions. So it was not only an outlyer it was deliberately manipulated to give a positive result for SLAB.
That STV story has made my day:
link to news.stv.tv
manandboy@3.29
If you go back to the 70,s and beyond you will find that every time armed insurgency was mentioned it was the establishment that was behind it .
Check out the bbc Alba Diomhair documentary on you tube to find out the type of dirty tricks the establishment pulled in their efforts to destroy the independence movement .
People have served time for falling for the establishments tricks and of course the people who instigated them disappeared back into the darkness from where they came from .
O/T
A Cautionary Tale
Once upon a time, there were some Nobles who ruled the land and pretended they were rivals, cos some said they liked different colours (either Red or Blue). These Nobles had a problem, their peasants were unhappy. Now usually the just had a big ‘Change Of Colour’ (COC) event, where all the peasants had to travel for miles and choose the new colour for the head Noble – then all the peasants would cheer up as they imagined something had happened and things were going to get better. But lately some peasants had been saying that the nobles shouldn’t hurt the wee ones – even thou the nobles never, ever hurt the wee ones – well not the noble ones at any rate! And some other peasants had been saying that the nobles shouldn’t go to war for no good reason – like being Noble wasn’t reason enough? Some peasants even had crazy ideas, like Nobles shouldn’t treat peasants like, well peasants. And now some peasants had said they should get to be nobles!
Luckily the Nobles and some plans for this. First they made up two ‘damning’ reports against each colour. Then they let some peasants choose different colours and be special ‘nobles’ called jesters. They told the jesters about the ‘damning’ reports, but said they couldn’t read them till after the next they had a big COC event. After the big COC event, one noble colour was duly chosen and the head jester got to stand next to the head Noble.
Later the jesters were allowed to read one of the ‘damning’ reports and tell everyone about it. Unfortunately everytime they tried there was a parade or a dragon attack. Anytime someone did hear it was always about a Noble who had died or gone away and so the peasants didn’t care anymore.
The Nobles punished the uppity peasants even more now and sent the jesters out to give the bad news on their behalf. Quickly the jesters became very unpopular, but just as the jesters were getting sad, the head Noble let the jesters read the other ‘damning’ report. The jesters told everyone and said they had to have another big COC.
The peasants moaned ‘Oh No – Not Again!’. Red & Blue Nobles both pointed at the jesters – ‘It is their fault!’ they said, and the peasants thought it sure looked that way. And the peasants knew Red and Blue had changed their ways cos they had come clean with the ‘damning’ reports.
After that the peasants went back to choosing Red or Blue in the, once again properly pretendy, big COC and forgot all about being uppity and all about the jesters.
And everyone lived happily (Nobles) and unhappily (peasants) ever after…
N.B. No living Nobles were harmed by the ‘damning’ as all the bits that could have been bad were carefully left out of the ‘damning’ reports just in case it ’caused any damage to the fabric of the state’.
big jock says:
21 January, 2015 at 4:06 pm
That STV story has made my day:
link to news.stv.tv
Aye, and on top of the news that the SNP are prepared to vote on English matters (when it affects Scottish funding), has caused panic at Westminster. The English MSM will be warning of the dangers of a Labour-SNP coalition (very bad news for Ed).
Yep, quite an awful day for the Red Tories. Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha.
Thanks WoS! What an eye opener. Snatcher Thatcher actually let loose on teamGB by same troughers that blame SNP. It also shows that vote Eggs Murphy’s Lab CiF online attacking Scottish democracy is pretty sophisticated, well maybe not so much sophisticated more hard core thuggery. What a bloody nerve they’ve got.
@ manandboy I,m as guilty of exploding as any one on here does from time to time.New readers dont know you as well as the other Wingers,please be careful on your choice of wording 3.29pm,please regard this post as friendly advice.
Big Brothers WATCHING an I dont mean Channel 5.
If these devastating opinion polls persist for another month or so, blind panic will set in among the Red Tories. There is a more than fair chance then, of a Big Murphy or a wee Alexander coming out and saying “Actually, I believe that Scotland needs more powers than the Smith Commission proposes.”
Another Vow on the way, perhaps?
O/T -sorry Rev but important
Latest from Exaro News & child abuse enquiry
link to exaronews.com
Would seem that underhand tactics are alive & well at Westminster-they will do anything to kick this into the long grass.
Luigi
This question can be read two ways. How would Labour have fared in today’s opinion poll if there had NOT been this wall to wall TV and print PR going on by Labour’s friends?
In this list of the Labour MP’s, one of the most obnoxious ones was Eric Moonman who predicted the SNP would lose all eleven seats. He lost his seat at the 1979 election.
O/T but would you believe that BBC Scotland Live just posted a text I sent them which was “So Jim Murphy says only way to protect the NHS is vote Labour. Protect it from what – only a few months ago he was telling whoever would listen to him, from his Irn Bru crates, that the NHS wasn’t at risk. Nobody should trust this man.”
Might have something to do with my follow up text “Bet the Scottish/Labour BBC wont post that one. Biased to the point of embarrassing”
Wont make a bit of difference but have a cheesy grin going on 🙂
First class detective work REV; many thanks I’m using keeping this and using this against the ‘Sith Lords’ & ‘Ermine supporters’; sorry – Unionist Left; sorry – Trade Unionist Left; sorry – Socialist Jock front; sorry – Blairite Scots; sorry – Red Tories; sorry – McTiernan Patriotic Brigade, sorry – Labour Scotchland; sorry – British Labour North…
I’ve got it ‘Sell Scotland short at every turn faction’.
Phew got their in the end !
@SqueuedPerspextive
Insightful parable of our time, well done you.
@graeme doig
Thanks Graeme, i’m no political analyst or number cruncher when it comes to politics but i know a little something about power and the use and abuse of it, and Westminster has no respect for anything they consider not to have power or influence
Westminster despises the French because they feel the French are beneath them, same with the Germans although more warily(bigger power)but they do business because they have to, the Americans are a hillbilly joke to our ruling toffs but they practically curtsy to them (Big Big Power) everybody else are just damn nuisances to be dealt with by a minion in the foreign office, Well, thats what it’s there for
Scotland (Big Sigh) getting as bad as the damn Irish bog trotters don’t you know
Above, short description of how they feel about everybody, it’s not just us, but we can only concern ourselves with us coz we’ve no power to do anything else UNLESS we shove it so far up their ARS.S by voting ourselves into a position where they have to tolerate us the same way they put up with other countries they don’t like, because for us that would be an advancement but for them a complete and total embarrassment and i like that
Re that STV report, strange that there is no comment from Branch Office, not like them to be reticent!
Em aye five pals
Gloves are coming off guys & gals
Nicola being interviewed by Nick Robinson. Look at the smiles from her. She enjoyed that.
link to bbc.co.uk
@Marcia
There was great cull of the MSM media, starting with TV, after the Nationalist scare in the mid 70s.
Many of the well known faces, who up till then had been balanced and professional journalists were disappeared from our screens by various means.
To be replaced temporarily by ‘Whitehall types’ but then quickly by bimbettes and ‘grateful for the gig’ types operating above their capabilities and therefore easily lead.
Phase three, the installation of reasonably talented, but lovingly brainwashed types is not yet complete, due largely perhaps to the compatibility difficulty involved in finding reasonably talented Scots who can be sufficiently brainwashed.
there it is again. It’s everywhere. Ma baw causation. Those who own the baw determine the starting point that is the cause of whatever issue. Thatcher owes her success only to the SNP voting with Tories. Anything that happened before or after is not the cause of Thatcher’s success (or Labour’s failure) because I say so. In this case, Rev Stu is clearly wrong.
That Cunningham quote re “Think 45 Million Englishmen(sexist!) will be at the behest of 71 Scottish MPS…”
Cue May and everyone hearing Shirley Bassey singing “Its all just a little bit of history repeating”
labour couldn’t cope with MSM.
it was not the preferred scapegoats the snp, who caused their downfall.
sorry guys well of topic but can anyone remember the article on wings about game of thrones i cant find it the bbc spinning like mad on this link to bbc.co.uk any help appreciated
Gods Country
or should i say Geoff from Aberdeen 🙂 Nice one.
Dr Jim
‘ … UNLESS we shove it so far up their ARS.S by voting ourselves into a position where they have to tolerate us the same way they put up with other countries they don’t like, because for us that would be an advancement but for them a complete and total embarrassment and i like that’
Aye and it sounds like our Nicola is starting that process today 🙂
dennis mclaughlin says:
21 January, 2015 at 2:38 pm
How’s about a funded “Big Red Tory Lies and Deception Vol 1??.
Before it was complete it would be longer than the bloody Encyclopedia Britannica
We cannot lay the blame for Thatcherism at the “rebel” LAB MP’s feet, any more than the SNP MPs who voted against the Government in the no-confidence vote. It puts paid to the Labour myth, but it was the great british public who voted for and ushered in Thatcher and her cronies.
@Tattie-bogle
“sorry guys well of topic but can anyone remember the article on wings about game of thrones i cant find it the bbc spinning like mad on this link to bbc.co.uk any help appreciated”
I await with interest the Beebspin on why the UK is virtually the only country in the developed World which has not yet aired the ‘Outlander’ TV series which is made in Scotland.
Graeme Doig
Thanks but I am trying to infiltrate the SLAB ranks and you have now just blown my cover! 🙂
That’s why change of name!! They might not notice 🙂
Apologies if this has already been posted.
I have just received an e-mail from the *ahem* honest one … I believe you all may know him better by his alias … Murph the Smurph. 😀
I thought I’d share the good cheer that it brings with everyone, I can’t be selfish now, can I? 😉
Oh don’t worry oor wee Jim’s 100,000 figure does make an appearance so you can all sleep easy in your bed tonight! 😛
link to youtube.com
I have just looked at the STV article on their latest poll. One side of me is cautious as to the real situation on the ground, but taking in all the evidence over previous and recent stages of the self determination debate, I am more inclined to think that maybe there is something in the thought that the Referendum really was fluked by the Establishment.
There are a lot of things going on at the moment which have the common factor of Westminster looking after its own.
I trust Alex and his team will be careful in how they handle themselves until May 7 and that Peter Murrell has put in place a rebuttal team more than a match for anything that Alastair Campbell and Brian Wilson devised.
@Lesley-Anne
The only thing that will be changed by SLAB is the Scottish people – short changed.
the snp, ssp, scotgreens, don’t fear their pasts, but embrace it to help us build a decent future.
don’t let the right wing rewrite history!
proven; snp, ssp,and scotgreens do fight for social justice.
Aye, Labour’s roll of shame.
Their sole intention was to shaft Scotland, but they ended up shafting themselves too. However, in typical Labour fashion, with the help of the UK’s tame MSM they were able to pull off a propaganda campaign that cast the blame elsewhere.
I can still recall the the dashed hopes and all the sadness, and how disconsolate I felt when we lost that referendum – and then went through it all again last year. Maybe third time lucky, eh?
I used to like Bob Hughes when he was my MP in Aberdeen North, now Im happy that I took that bribe from Brian Wilson to move my vote back to Arran so I could vote for him. (Which I didn’t, I voted SNP but I took the bribe of a pint of lager anyway 🙂 )
@ Lesley-Anne
“I have just received an e-mail from the *ahem* honest one … I believe you all may know him better by his alias … Murph the Smurph.”
I couldn’t watch it to the end.
Typical Labour shitebaggery – comments are disabled for that video. Probably because they know that re their promise to build more houses we’ll remind of their last time in power when they only built 6 houses in eight years.
On the STV polls crankup the printing presses at the Daily Retard.Oh I VOW to thee o our partee.
Added to that list, from the BBC of all people:
“The Government was not helped by the extent of internal dissent within the Labour party. There was an active Labour ‘Vote No’ campaign in Scotland, of which Brian Wilson was Chairman, and Robin Cook a Vice-Chairman together with Tam Dalyell.”
Chic McGregor @ 5.14pm.
My take on Outlander is that this is regarded as a political hot potato and will not be shown before the GE15, it may never be shown on Television but I did think we could have got it on disc by now. Black Sails made by the same company certainly is, in fact we have it. Having read the books and knowing that Diana Gabaldon did not miss and hit the wall, the story starts in an occupied Scotland, occupied since the 1715 rising and it is now in 1740’s, does that seem familiar.
1979. Westminster democracy at its finest.
And let us never forget Thatcher got only 43.9% of the votes and a massive 339 MPs courtesy of FPTP. This allowed her government to wreak havoc and yet most voters rejected her.
And in the same debacle, LibDems, bless them, got 13.8% giving them a miserable 11 seats.
Westminster sucks! Always has, always will.
Jimbo, aye, and they returned 1.6 Billion back to the treasury because they couldn’t think of anything to spend it on!
Mmmm, STV News at Six 🙂
Thanks for the advice, Wingers – your sentiments are much appreciated.
Actually, I’ve already sent back the Kalashnikov and the Bazooka, as they made the wife a wee bit nervous – as in ballistic, so I’m not really prepared for combat yet.
I hear however, that Nicola is on the war path and taking no prisoners,
so I’m content in the meantime that the enemy has been engaged.
Looking forward to reading the list of Labour casualties after the May 7 Offensive.
Thanks again for the intel. Over and out.
@SqueuedPerspextive.,
There’s a great chapter in “The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists” by Robert Tressell on elections.
Some attitudes haven’t changed since then.
You can download an e book free from the internet.
Edulis
The last 2 weeks of the Referendum campaign were when most people bothered and took an interest – a great interest. I think the poll(s) that showed YES ahead were correct at the time, along came the Vow and gave people an excuse. If for some odd reason there had been able to be a delay of 2 weeks, then YES would ahve been back over the 53%.
After the Vow and the Ref two things happened. First was the start of people thinking they made the wrong choice, the Vow started falling apart, the SNP (and Greens and SSP) were the only parties going for Devo-Max, and the NO voters who wanted Devo-Max started realising that the SNP were their only chance of Devo-Max.
The current poll shows 52% for the SNP. Well, we all hold our breath and hope that persists. But on the other side there’s a potential vote as high as 59% – the same as support for Devo-Max. That 52% could go down – or up.
Gmad
Apologies whoever you are. 😉
Note to Slab and GCHQ: Ignore my comment at 5.07, i’m an unreliable witness honest.
There, sorted.
Aye Chic you are 100% correct there!
What with their promise of 100,000 more nurses and now 100,000 more houses I have a question for oor Jim. Where is he getting all the money … oops I forgot … oor Jim is paying for these 100,000’s out of his expenses claims! 😛
I can well understand that feeling Jimbo. I did watch it through to the end and it does not get any better I have to report. 😉 I thought I had to watch it through to the end and take a hit on behalf of the team just so no one else had to you understand! 😀
Gods Country says:
21 January, 2015 at 4:38 pm
O/T but would you believe that BBC Scotland Live just posted a text I sent them….
Yeah saw that, Quality !
Thanks Stu for keeping up the good work and the pressure on Slab. Great article!
@Helena Brown o/t. There is a Facebook page for Outlander which has all the news. DVD coming out on March 3rd.
@R-Type Grunt
You and me both mate. I’m champing at the bit here. I don’t care about conferences and meetings. Give me something to DO!
yesindyref2
Also A Darling, J Lamont.
DimJims political broadcast. Stick wie the handjives Jim put the mooth on MUTE.
Impressive performance from the First Minister as ever.
BUT
I really don’t think she or anyone from the SNP should give anything to that snide, sneering Tory shit Robinson. The SNP should have the most minimal dealings with the BBC and deny them any claim to impartiality and respectability.
I’ve encountered hundreds (well maybe scores or dozens) of Labour supporters who still adhere to the lie that the SNP ushered in the Thatcher era.
My response has always been to point out that it was George Cunningham who introduced the 40% amendment so it was one of their own who forced the SNP to stick by their principles and bring down the doomed Callaghan government a few months early.
Those who know anything about Cunningham protest that he was only one voice and anyway went off to join the SDP after the next election to which I reply that his amendment was backed by the Labour government and therefore they have collective responsibilty.
That response shuts a few of them up but the more blinkered ones carry on as before. Now with the Rev’s excellent work I’ve got even more ammunition to throw back at them. Great piece(s) of work!
@Helena Brown
Aye, that was my point.
I also saw an interview of Dianne Gabaldon at the Edinburgh book festival where she was asked by a member of the audience why it had not been shown. But when she started to cite the then forthcoming referendum the interviewer on stage deflected her. Its on tube somewhere.
BBC at their Subliminal reporting again , every time they mention OIL they show the footage of the Caladonian Storage Tanks not Shell, BP, Enron, ect.
I think one of the prime movers in that roll of honour was the fabulously named Moonman.
The 79 proposals were pretty tame, it might be argued that by thwarting a Yes vote through a sleight of hand amendment and largely pushed through by Tories, these people laid the foundations for a demand for more, much, much more. It may have been a long bumpy road but we are moving ever closer to something far more like the notions of Home Rule the founders of the Scottish Labour Party (when it was such a beast) had in mind.
Funny how things work out.
@Gods Country
Good on you – I saw your comment on the BBC website and I thought that was a bit unbiased!? It is not like them – maybe some of their employees are getting sick of seeing the Smurph’s already.
O/T Newsnet Scotland has a welcome new addition in the citizen bit – Prof John Robertson.
He looks like he is doing a regular slot on the Biased Broadcasting Corporation…
link to newsnet.scot
link to newsnet.scot
I think he will need lots of popcorn for his armchair – he is going to be busy.
What a good day – 52% SNP poll and SVEL.
I think I am going to really enjoy this Scottish Spring!
I think you should add to that roll of dishonour the 150-odd Labour MPs who didn’t even bother turning up for the vote. If just one in 10 had made the effort, the amendment would have fallen.
@iain taylor (not that one) says:21 January, 2015 at 3:27 pm:
”
iain taylor (not that one) says:
21 January, 2015 at 3:27 pm
Revealing, and thanks.
My response to the SNP/Thatcher smear always was that the SNP MPs were there to oppose, and that’s what an opposition does, in the hope of bettering its position at the next poll. It certainly doesn’t vote to prop up a lame duck government.”
Well Iain, my response to them, ever since that lie first emerged, was “The SNP owes no loyalty whatsoever to Labour or any other Unionist Party”.
Furthermore, I noticed through the years that a very large proportion of those Labourites who brought about their own party’s downfall were eventually rewarded with the title of Baron or Baroness. I’ve never bothered to list and count the proportion but it is suspiciously high.
Could it be this was an early uniting of the Establishment’s parties against Scotland in defence of the Union and hence the high awards of such titles among those who sacrificed their party for the good of the Establishment and Union?
@gerry parker 6.13
Thank you my friend for your information. One minute after reading your post I had a copy of The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists downloaded to my Kindle.
@Martin Wood says: 21 January, 2015 at 3:31 pm:
“Since the telgraph is reporting Nicola Sturgeon is rescinding the self imposed SNP ban English only votes and any elected SNP MP is free to vote on these issues…there is only one thing to say — Gaun yersell Nicla….o’er the top and right intae them.”.
Martin, I have been an SNP supporter even before I became an adult, since around 1946 in fact. Just about the only SNP policy I have ever disagreed with but accepted it as a democratic decision, was the MPs not voting on matters the Establishment claimed as England only matters.
It has always been my opinion, that as Westminster is the de facto parliament of England and is funded as the UK, then all Westminster legislates for the UK makes every Westminster matter a UK matter. That makes it every UK MP’s business.
Besides which, as there is no English Block grant then Barnett Consequentials from decisions made on English/UK funding affect the Scottish block grant.
Back to normal nom de plume as sure I have been rumbled! ???? Follow up text to Scottish/Labour BBC “I stand corrected. Trust me, you would get so much more viewers if you weren’t so biased against the SNP. Try it you might feel liberated.” Compared to the work/effort most on here have and still put into the cause mine is like a midge bite on the arse of a hippo but small steps so they say.
@Neil says: 21 January, 2015 at 3:37 pm:
“Latest IPSOS MORI Poll commissioned by STV showing SNP voting intentions at 52%, Labour on 24% – Saviour Jim hasnt made the kind of impression the MSM had quite hoped for despite the wall to wall coverage he has been given.”
There is always the point of view that the new figures reflect the fact that what Murphy is saying and doing has resulted in the increased swing to the SNP and other independence parties. Perhaps, at last, the Scottish electorate really have become politically aware of the real true facts.
@Ronnie Anderson
Sky News have been doing the same thing, every report I have seen and its been a few, out comes the Caledonian tanks.
Really been enjoying these articles of late. Certainly leads to a LOT of extra reading. Very informative.
I detect a certain amount of dismay amongst the good folk over at the Groaniard regarding the STV poll 🙂
I will be gobsmacked if we do get a clean sweep in May such things are rare events but it certainly has them thinking.
…imagine for a moment a media with investigative journalists who did this type of research and then imagine a newspaper that printed it!
…I can dream 😛
@ Fergus Green.
Well done sir,
Enjoy.
🙂
For Tattie-bogle at 5:03pm, asking for a ‘Game of Thrones’ article – Scott Minto wrote ‘Game of Cron(i)es’ on June 17, 2013.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Actually, I’m surprised there are so few Scottish Labour MPs on that list. Given their general spineless nature, how many abstained, I wonder? They won 41 of the 72 in October 74, not sure if any were lost by the time of the Cunningham Amendment.
Aberdeen councilors, please take a walk from Point Law key to the city centre and ask yourself if this is the oil capital of Europe or just another shithole in a third world country. The Norwegian sailors must be shaking there heads. Fuck me where has all the money gone?
Helena here, I hope, is that interview. Should start 19min in. Don’t watch the rest, spoilers.
link to youtube.com
Robert Peffers
Intrigued I went through Wikipedia and five of that list were rewarded with peerages, some died quite young, some died incumbent in their HOC parliamentary seats, and many were probably too properly left wing for anyone to think they’d take up a peerage.
I’ve no idea if thats a better than average batting for LAbour party conversion to the HOL, though I suspect that the peerage reward has become more popular as the Labour politicians have become less left wing.
Please God send a Labour party canvasser to my door!
Great journalism Rev Stu, im going to send it to a few Welsh Labour people see what they’ve gotta say about it.
I’m disappointed, but not surprised to see 2 welsh MP’s voting for the 40% Yes rule in 1979. Leo Abse was Neil Kinnock’s side kick in wrecking welsh devolution in 1979 and he campaigned with the Tories for a No Vote in 1997, therefore his vote against Scottish devolution is entirely in character with the man.
Abse was also happy to repeat the fascist slur against Plaid Cymru founder Saunders Lewis like so many of his Labour cotemporaries and current Welsh Labour types
As for Ioan Evans the Aberdare MP, I’ve gotta be honest id never heard of him till I read your article, His Wikipedia entry states
‘Ioan Evans was first elected to Parliament in the 1964 general election for the constituency of Birmingham Yardley. From 2 May 1966 to 26 September 1966, Evans was a substitute member of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe.[1] From 1968 to 1970 he was Comptroller of the Household in the Wilson Government. Evans lost his seat in the 1970 general election to Conservative Derek Coombs.
Evans re-entered Parliament in the February 1974 general election for the Welsh seat of Aberdare. This seat was abolished in 1983, and Evans was elected for the new Cynon Valley constituency. He died the following year, aged 56, in Hillingdon, and a by-election was held to replace him.’
Ioan Evans name should be better known in welsh politics as one of two welsh MP’s along with Leo Abse and the infamous 32 others who ushered in the Thatcher Government.
Foomanchu’
I hear you. It’s a fucking disgrace. Now the borrowed time Aberdeen has been living on may run out. Interesting times….
Great stuff Rev, hmmm, an answer now on who to blame for Thatcher, and shows once more the deceit of Labour/Slab on the Scottish electorate. Shameless, utterly.
Nothing has changed, they never deserved the Scottish votes they got, and do not deserve them now.
Voters are more concerned about the here and now. Forget history lets make some. Labour broadcast tonight mentioned getting shot of David Cameron but I’m sure there was no mention of Miliband. He’s as much a liability in UK as Murphy is in Scotland. The tide is with Scotland, especially because of the arithmetic – SNP are now UK relevant and that will guarantees UK coverage which is often our downfall.
The past is not the important thing. The SNP is now UK relevant and will get UK coverage with prospect of a hung Parliament in May. The London-centric media have found Scotland and it’s the size of the SNP not the Labour vote they’ll be speculating on.
jimnarlene,
“I used to like Dennis Skinner, now, not so much.”
Same here.
But I saw right through Malcolm Chisholm when he strongly opposed independence in the referendum debate in the Scottish parliament.
Baron Hughes of Woodside in Aberdeen believed in Independence for others, but not for his own people!!!
“Under [Robert Hughes] chairmanship the Anti-Apartheid Movement campaigned against the Thatcher government’s refusal to impose sanctions against South Africa in the 1980s and organised the 1988 ‘Free Mandela’ concert at Wembley Stadium which was televised by the BBC and broadcast around the world. Hughes attended the independence celebrations in Namibia in 1990 and acted as an observer at South Africa’s first democratic elections in April 1994. Wikipedia.
Looking forward to seeing this in The National and The Sunday Herald.
Lesley-Anne,
“Aye Chic you are 100% correct there!
What with their promise of 100,000 more nurses and now 100,000 more houses I have a question for oor Jim.”
That is an exageration of only 9900% on your part.
Just watched Newsnet 2015.
After they had John Swinney on they had Patrick Harvie, Jackie Baillie, Willie Rennie and some-one from the Tory Party to poo-poo what Swinney said – with no-one from the SNP present to defend Swinney or respond to the criticism.
The presenter Andrew Kerr acted like Jackie Baillie’s straight man. You ask the questions Andrew and Jackie’ll do the character assassination.
Nope no BBC bias to be seen here.
Rock honey, what’s with the 50% cut in gs?
Well thanks dudes – you may wish to pay the licence fee but could you hold off the spoilers for a couple of hours until the rest of us have had a chance to use the catch-uppy thingies?
I was there. Thatcher got in because the Labour government was shit, the public knew it, and it seems even their leader thought so.
It wasn’t really these ‘rebels’ that caused it, although their indiscipline and disloyalty was noted by the voters, it was Labour utterly dismal performance in office that got Thatcher elected. Folk memories of the Labour government was _so bad_ that even 13 years later the utter nonentity John Major was preferred to letting Labour have any power.
That is the the inconvenient truth that Scotch Labour’s pathetic “the SNP did it” drivel tries to cover.
I actually believe we will never see another UK Labour Government. Time’s up historically on a movement that achieved all its major aims by the 1950s and it has been losing its reason for existence ever since
@Doug D
“Well, well, well! Who’d have thought Dennis Skinner of all people would have been one of the ones to lay the ground for Thatcherism?”
My thought as well. He certainly had a Ralph Nader moment there. Beastly mistake.
I don’t think we realised at the time what Margaret Thatcher would be like. Up till then, the Conservatives had been much more centrist, pro welfare state etc so most people would assume that would continue. The Labour party was ready for a period in opposition, it had run out of steam. Also, a lot of people didn’t like the bullying behaviour of a lot of trades union bosses and the anti trades union laws were more popular than you’d think. Personally, I never want to go back to the days of the ‘closed shop’ for instance. Things have now gone too far the other way and we now need someone who will stand up to and face down big business
The truth is that the Tories are more scared of a large contingent of SNP MP’s than they are of a large contingent of Labour MP’s. We’ve seen recently how easily Labour work alongside the Tories to make things easier for them.
btw I watched Nicola on the news at 6 o’clock last night, they broadcast the whole of the interview with Nick Robinson and she took him apart.
I was surprised that she didn’t say at the end of it “Did that answer your question Nick”
She certainly looked as though she wanted to!
Well done girl.
🙂
A much briefer version of the exchange on the 10 O clock news. Someone mustav spoken to the BBC about it.
I’m pretty sure Neil Kinnock (another Labour Socialist that lost his way) was involved in supporting George Cunningham, yet not on list!
Must have had an after dinner engagement that day!
Can I urge ALL of you to email your local Labour MP with the true facts of what really happened in 1979.
Tell them politely that you will await a reply.
Put it in “idiot proof”, easy to understand sentences, then they can’t come back to you saying that they didn’t understand what you were trying to say.
The best form of defence is attack.
Get in first with our own facts before their balloon has even been floated.
Scottish Labour are finished.
Well I WAS around in 1979 and have a clear memory of events which are as you describe. However I don’t buy Callaghans disingenuous version of events. I was always convinced that the Labour government never wanted the Scotland Act to become law and connived behind the scenes with George Cunningham to make sure it didn’t.
For the Yes vote to have succeeded I calculate that, including the dead, people out of the country, the sick and those who had moved but not yet reregistered to vote, roughly 72% of the elctorate would have had to have voted in favour. A near impossible hurdle given the weak version of devolution on offer.
That my theory is correct is supported by evidence from Jim Sillars who, relating a conversation with the Chief Whip after the Act was repealed, told how he expressed his frustration that the Party had failed the people of Scotland and the Chief Whip responded,
“But Jim, surely you realised we were never serious about it?”