The reversing mirror
You may have noticed we’ve been a bit paralysed by choice today. Bizarre idiocy from the No camp has broken out across so many different fronts at once that we couldn’t decide which one to tackle first.
Labour’s extraordinary attempt to steal the SNP’s clothes in Dunfermline? The Mail’s hilarious editorial on the “bitter attacks” of the “demoralised” Yes campaign? Alan Cochrane’s disintegrating composure and sanity? The cluelessly deranged “Braveheart and Sassenachs” wordspew from Andrew Gilligan in this morning’s Telegraph?
On reflection, the most significant is probably the increasingly noticeable shift in the tone of coverage in the Guardian, the UK newspaper with by some distance the most extensive Scottish reporting. At the weekend we highlighted a truly horrible piece of sub-Daily-Express smearmongering by the paper’s Scottish correspondent Severin Carrell based – on its own open admission – entirely on rumours and speculation from a couple of Labour activists.
Today, the same reporter adopted a more subtle approach.
“Trident deal would be delayed until 2016, says Alex Salmond” is the title of one of two pieces in the paper on the same subject, and alert readers will have spotted the logical fallacy in the headline before even reading the article: defence policy is reserved to Westminster, and since after a Yes vote Scotland wouldn’t actually be independent until 2016, the idea of any decision being taken prior to then is nonsensical.
Carrell has form in this area, previously writing of another “delay” in an SNP policy, when he alleged that the publication of the independence white paper had been held back from its original date of November this year to, um, November this year.
But it’s the spin in the text of the article that’s more interesting. At the weekend, the First Minister gave an interview to the BBC’s Andrew Marr Show in which – for the first time, as far as we’re aware – he explicitly rejected the idea that an independent Scotland would allow the rUK to lease the Faslane naval base for the use of Trident for a time while the rUK constructed an alternative.
MARR (24m 44s): “When you talk to defence ministers in London, they say ‘Oh well, we might have some sort of lease-back arrangement, a bit like a base in Cyprus’. That is for the birds as far as you’re concerned, isn’t it?”
SALMOND: “Well, yes it is for the birds. I think the Ministry Of Defence actually briefed quite recently – well, I know they did – that they were going to annex Faslane, but that particular ridiculous scare story just lasted overnight before Downing Street tried to, well, did dismiss it.
So, you know, I think the reality is that if Scotland becomes an independent country, if they choose the SNP to be the government, then we’d want to see Scotland as a non-nuclear country – part of the NATO alliance certainly, part of the defence structures co-operating on defence, but co-operating on the basis of being a non-nuclear country.”
As this site has always felt and said that such a deal (over 5-10 years) was the most likely course of action, we were quite surprised, and noted on Twitter this apparent hardening of the SNP line on the subject. Severin Carrell heard something else.
“In an interview on the Andrew Marr show on BBC1, Scotland’s first minister appeared to soften his stance on the immediate future of the Trident fleet on the Clyde in the event of a yes vote in next September’s referendum.
He told Marr that a future SNP government would resist demands from the UK government for Trident to remain in Scotland through a deal to lease the Clyde submarine base in same way that the UK leases its base on Cyprus.”
(The curious lack of capitalisation of the title “First Minister”, we should note in fairness, is a format the Guardian also employs for the Prime Minister.)
Those two paragraphs appear to contradict each other. But then it got odder.
“But Salmond implied that Trident’s fate would not be decided during the 18 months of independence negotiations that would start within days of a yes vote on 18 September 2014, when Scottish and UK ministers would be wrestling over a currency deal, sharing national debt, splitting up the UK’s North Sea oil and gas fields and sharing welfare and pension arrangements.
He said: ‘The time period for their removal: once Scotland became independent and after, of course, people have elected their first government in an independent Scotland, but if it were to be an SNP government then we would ask the submarines to be removed from Scotland as soon as was safely possible. And the emphasis, obviously on safety, because no one would want to compromise that in any way.’
That apparent concession is significant for the independence talks […] Crucially for Salmond, that tone of compromise also suggests his government is worried about its chances of joining NATO. “
But it’s quite plainly neither a “concession” nor a “compromise”. Carrell can’t possibly be suggesting, after all, that the Westminster government would demand the removal be rushed, with safety disregarded?
Scotland will still be a part of the UK until 2016. The Scottish Government can’t dictate anything about Trident before then. David Cameron would be entirely within his rights to refuse to even discuss the subject. But more to the point, and as Salmond expressly noted, the Scottish Government would also be in no position to tie the hands of whoever the Scottish electorate elects in May 2016.
It’s perfectly conceivable that Labour or the Conservatives could stand in the 2016 election on a platform of leasing Faslane to the rUK. Both are committed to nuclear weapons, and could argue a case for sharing that aspect of defence with Scotland’s neighbours, as many countries across the world share aspects of their defence.
(Whether such a policy would be a vote-winner is a separate argument.)
No even remotely competent political journalist, then, could construct a rational proposition that the future of Trident could ever have been decided prior to the Scottish election of 2016. Severin Carrell (whose TV profile has recently increased measurably) isn’t an idiot – he knows that as well as we do and you do.
So readers might wish to ask themselves why he seems so determined to repeatedly present absolutely consistent, unchanging SNP policy positions as something else.
Does he know that we know that he knows he is not an idiot? Perhaps we should call him an idiot in order for him declare he knows that we know that he knows he is not an idiot.
Mind you, I prefer the word buffoon.
Alan Cochrane has now gone from arrogance to fear, it seems to be spreading through the NO ranks.
Grima wormtongue probably learned his trade from Severin.
Its a bit like Chinese whispers when dealing with the UK media. It doesn’t matter what the original statement was, by the time it reaches a column it’ll come out completely different. 🙂
The Together groups, proUnion journalists and politicians know they are losing and can only resort to complete misrepresentation of the truth, and in the sure and certain knowledge that no mainstream media, print or television will contradict them.
Watching Carrell the other night on Newsnight, one could see the tired look shared by Blair McDougall. The studio also had an air of depression, apart from the the former SG adviser, the only animated presence.
Methinks Severin Carrell’s ever changing non changing ever changing position on anything is more a case of “right meds……WRONG dose!” :P:
“So readers might wish to ask themselves why he seems so determined to repeatedly present absolutely consistent, unchanging SNP policy positions as something else.”
Well I think we all know why? Classsic Josef Goebbels approach to the ignorant and not to readers of Wings. And without constant public rebuttal afraid ‘mud’ sticks?
“…smearmongering by [the Guardian’s Scotland] correspondent Severin Carrell based … entirely on rumours and speculation from a couple of Labour activists.”
“Severin Carrell (whose TV profile has recently increased noticeably) isn’t an idiot”
“So readers might wish to ask themselves why he seems so determined to repeatedly present absolutely consistent, unchanging SNP policy positions as something else.”
Hmm…
It would seem that Labours bad communication day is getting worse!
link to snp.org
But a certain Ian smart of labour party fame is claiming that the leaflet mentioned is just an urban myth, it’s sure to be on Newsnight tonight, then again.
Most people in Scotland are aware that the safe removal of WMDs from Faslane, post-independence, will be an extremely delicate operation, requiring several years of negotiation, planning and execution. Where exactly is the “concession”?, where is the “comprimise”? It’s about time the compliant, British MSM stopped treating scots as if they were all complete idiots.
I always wondered whether Severin’s parents were dyslexic Blake’s 7 fans. I’d never heard of the name before encountering his articles.
A bizarre editorial in the Scottish Mail, because I would lay bets that the vast majority of people in Scotland would want to get rid of Lords, asset-strippers, warmongers and Westminster MPs etc!
Though I understand the Scottish Conservative wouldn’t.
I just found and watched this… Many may have seen it already, but Cochraine and Ian Davidson, both recently ‘brought up’ (for use of a better term) on Wings. I quite enjoyed it and wanted to share. It is about 6 months old I think… and things move quickly in Scottish Politics, but worth a gander anyway if you have not seen it. (Yes, it is from BBC… but obviously not the Quay!)
Better Together are also on the mark today, seems their after the bakers vote!
Jim,
This time last year I was busy preparing for the final of the Great British Bake Off.
Although nerve wracking, it was an honour to take part in a competition bringing together some of the best bakers from right across our country.
I discovered my passion for baking growing up with my family in Shetland. Like me, they are proud of our Scottish roots but also believe that we benefit from being part something bigger as part of the United Kingdom.
I passionately believe that we can achieve so much more by working together across the United Kingdom, rather than going it alone.
We can’t leave this to chance.
That’s why I am asking you to support the Better Together campaign by donating today.
Donate before tomorrow’s Bake Off final and you will be entered into a draw for one of FIVE signed copies of my new book Brilliant Bread!
I am getting involved because I believe that we are better and stronger together. I hope you will do the same.
Donate £10 today for your chance to win.
Thanks for your support,
James
James Morton
Great British Bake Off 2012 finalist
P.S. The Great British Bake Off final is tomorrow (Tuesday) with a two-hour special. Tune in from 7pm, BBC2.
I watched the Andrew Marr show on Sunday. I thought that Alex Salmond was very clear, calm, and made very good points on all questions asked. I was annoyed at one point when Andrew Marr stated that the Referendum was about identity, and if not about that, then what was it about? Although Alex Salmond didn’t reply immediately to it, he dealt with it shortly after, during the interview.
I have just read an article from yesterday, in the Telegraph, which makes it look like Alex Salmond brought up the subject of identity. Which anyone that actually watched the interview, would know, not to be true. They have also tried to say that Alex Salmond got ‘increasingly annoyed’ throughout the interview. Again, I didn’t notice anything of the kind. It appeared to me that Andrew Marr was the most flustered, as he was not allowed to get his way during the interview.
Sorry, I know it’s slightly off topic, but just another depressing example of how journalists and newspapers are being deceitful in their reporting.
“But more to the point, and as Salmond expressly noted, the Scottish Government would also be in no position to tie the hands of whoever the Scottish electorate elects in May 2016.”
This needs stressed over and over again as those on the no side frequently say that “the SNP” will be negotiating and will tie Scotland into loads of things, such as the EU, Sterling zone, NATO etc. The fact the SNP have already stated they want a cross-party, representative “Team Scotland” to negotiate passes them by. As does the idea that they CANNOT change anything reserved until the date of independence, which handily will be the same year as the first election.
They can’t get rid of the queen as head of state, change the status of EU citizens here or British citizens in the EU etc. Nothing will change in 2014 except for the fact we will be negotiating a return of sovereignty. In 2016, the first year of independence, we’ll also have the first elections to an independent Scottish parliament. Here, various parties will put forward their manifestos and we’ll vote on them. So if you want rid of the Queen or out of the EU, find, form or persuade a party to stand on that.
I get bored within a paragraph of Carrell’s articles, they just don’t hold my attention. I think it’s the attempted balancing act of Guardian pseudo-left liberalism guise with the as blatant misrepresentation of fact that glazes my eyes after the 100 or so words.
But what I did find annoying, very, very annoying was the cheap last word snipe from Marr when the FM said he would debate all and sundry after disposing of the PM. It was so unnecessary, impolite and supercilious I nearly choked.
Forgot to add, I thought that unionists were always at pains to point out how Shetlanders were always proud of their Shetland roots and culture.
@Jim
Yeah, James Morton was on Off the Ball on Saturday, sounds like a genuinely nice guy, but I have to say that Stuart Cosgrove was banging the drum for Scottish identity and culture mentioning the referendum a few times and said ‘why does the show need to be called The Great British Bake Off rather than just The Great Bake Off’?
Its no surprise… one of the many things that Marr, Carrell and Cochrane have in common is that they’ve all worked for The Scotsman or Scotland on Sunday. Same mindset.
I understand that the Guardian’s Scottish readership is pretty small, so what is the purpose of all this disinformation from Severin Carrell? Is he trying to whip up an English backlash against the democratic movement for Scottish self-determination? Or is he targeting influential “working class leaders” in Scotland, so that they will remain loyal to SLabour’s subordination to Westminster?
Do you think Carrell thinks Westminster should intervene to prevent the referendum? Not a very confident position.
@Alba4Eva
Alan Cochrane: “Johann Lamont is a brilliant debater.” 😀 😀
On the Guardian and Carroll: The Guardian as a newspaper is going in a right wing direction. The editor, Alan Rusbridger, recently described David Cameron as a “nice Social Democrat”!….Carroll has almost certainly been told to fervently back the No side.
@Alba4Eva
Proir to transmission of this programme the Hootsman et al were pushing stories saying Bremner feared the backlash from the cybernats once it had gone out. Of course the programme was very fair and balanced with a number of clever rebuttals of BT myths like the “Scottish Banks” one, so not another word was printed about it after it was shown – no surprise there then.
I particularly liked the damascene conversion of Sanjeev Kholi and the other script writer, no wonder the MSM didn’t want to draw attention to it. Thanks for the link, I had wanted to see it again and have now downloaded it.
@Jim Mitchell.
It’s a compelling argument from James Morton right enough.
“Vote No because I was on a lovely British Baking Competition once upon a time”
Utterly barmy.
I am doing my utmost to avoid the media these days, although it’s difficult these days. I just don’t have the temper for it.
I take it you’re not a fan of the Velvet Underground, Tamson. If you were you would know the name Severin from their wonderful “Venus in Furs”.
Someone even posted a verse here a few days ago.
link to secretnuclearweaponstore.blogspot.co.uk
Don’t forget where all the nuclear weapons are stored ………………it isn’t Faslane.
I know James Morton the baker and medical student. He is a nice guy just politically naive and misguided.
The reality is most people have no idea of how absurd it is to be in a political union and giving up your own nations sovereignty. Outvoted 10:1 by England means that Scotland has negligible influence within the UK and basically have been a mere afterthought in Westminster’s priorities and this situation along with Westminster’s extreme right wing policies have had huge detrimental effects to Scotland. When the evidence is that wealth has been pumped from Scotland to the South of England for at least the past few decades it makes a mockery of the idea of a union for the greater goof of both nations.
In Scotland there are British Nationalists and there are Unionists. British Nationalists believe that the UK is one nation and the thought of their country being split up is abhorrent to them. No argument will sway them but fortunately in Scotland only around 10% of the population are of this persuasion. I would include most Scottish Based so called Unionist politicians under this bracket.
The rest of No voters are unionists who ultimately believe that Scotland is in a union with England for the greater good. Its in Scotland’s benefit and its in England’s benefit. People educated on the subject know this to be demonstrably untrue and overwhelmingly so.
The rest and probably the largest group are your average person who knows nothing of the subject but the majority are NO and the news and papers say its very scary so i should vote No anyway. Its these two groups that must be given information on the subject and to understand the depths and lies our opponents will go to maintain the status quo.
@Orkers…
RAF Machrihanish was probably used at one point for nuclear storage (it was leased by the Americans for a Navy Seal ‘Special Warfare Unit’ until 1995) until the RNAD Coulport storage facility was completed. It is now in local public hands and styled as Cambeltown Airport.
In fairness, it has been stated as a matter of fact by all sorts of Yes folk (myself included) that independence = removal of Trident. That’s because it seems inconceivable that even Scottish Labour would entertain any ideas of it staying in Scotland post-independence unless they want to be wiped out totally, but still, I suppose it’s entirely possible for people who are easily confused (hello Severin) to not understand how the process will work.
Since Trident is a UK asset (in only the most technical of terms), I suppose it will be part of the negotiations process, as its value will need to be factored into the lump-sum pay-off we’ll be getting in exchange for taking on our share of the UK’s debt mountain. And there’s no question of Scotland taking Trident on, since we’re not one of the named nuclear states in the Non-Proliferation Treaty and I would imagine we will be looking to be signatories of that ASAP to show our non-nuclear credentials (one of the 14,000 treaties that we WILL be interested in). So it’s possible that the removal of Trident will be kicked into motion during the independence negotiations. But even if that happened on the 19th September 2014, it would still be in Scotland on Independence Day.
And that would be the UK’s decision to make, since they’re still in charge of our defence policy until 2016.
“since we’re not one of the named nuclear states in the Non-Proliferation Treaty and I would imagine we will be looking to be signatories of that ASAP to show our non-nuclear credentials”
Well, that’s the thing. What if Labour or the Tories won in 2016? Would that still be the case?
I cringe at the thought of Scottish bakers being forced to compete under the saltire. We don’t have the water, wheat, or the oven infrastructure, and if we went it alone England would stop us using oven gloves.
For the sake of our fruit flans, for god’s sake vote No.
BTW I’ve been hearing much about the YES newspaper being circulated, is there a PDf version I can download?
Gary S: It’s a compelling argument from James Morton right enough.
“Vote No because I was on a lovely British Baking Competition once upon a time”
I think it’s a bit unfair to suggest that’s the full extent of his argument for staying in the union.
I mean, he wore all those lovely tank top jumpers as well.
The quality of MSM journalism in the UK has become infantile and it does nothing to address any of the real issues faced by people anywhere, not just in Scotland. When journalists start believing their own propaganda, democracy is threatened and that is what it boils down to. The British establishment cannot permit real democracy to be established in Scotland as it just might unleash the same desire among the English. The Guardian is turning into the vilest of propaganda sheets in its mission to thwart democracy for our country as it doesn’t want democracy for England either. Too many vested interests in Westminster for it to be really true to its roots. Fuck them I say!
“He is a nice guy just politically naive and misguided.”
It always strikes me as strange for anyone in the public eye to try to influence the rest of us which way to vote when it seems clear they have not first sought out the facts.
Baxter’s soup , Tunnock’s teacakes and now Morton’s rolls off my menu and no Monin’ bras to wear.
I have to say the only ones I’m really missing are the Tunnock’s – what a sacrifice to make for independence.
Where are all the baking-related jokes?
Is that an open-goal, or am ah wrang?
(Dough-nut forsake me etc…)
You forgot Mackies ice cream.
Or are they off the hook ’cause it’s so bloomin tasty?
“You forgot Mackies ice cream.
Or are they off the hook ’cause it’s so bloomin tasty?”
Giving up their amazing ice-cream (and their very good crisps) is the biggest and most difficult sacrifice I’ve made for independence.
That said, I did have a momentary weakness yesterday with some Caramel Logs. I’M NOT MADE OF STONE.
Ian Brotherhood
Good to see you back in the body of the Kirk.
Scotland has never really had a proper democracy, and neither has England, Wales, and Northern Ireland (although they have mostly been to busy shooting and bombing each other to notice). For a start there is the unelected House of Lords. Then there is the self serving, undemocratic First-Past-the-Post voting system. This is basically there to serve a two party state, Labour and the Tories. There is also no written constitution, so rights can be more easily destroyed by the governments of the day. MPs have been able to enrich themselves by very lax rules on donations and expenses. Westminster has been captured by corporate lobbying groups as well. In addition, we often get UK governments that do not have a proper mandate to govern Scotland. Why would people in Scotland want to continue to be ruled by this system of governance?
After reading sections of Eric Schlosser’s book “Command and Control”
and the amount of near misses, I want Trident oot as soon as possible.
Mr Schlosser, points out that Trident is one of the most dangerous nuclear weapons around, due to the nuclear payloads position, which is situated, in the third stage burn engine directly above the propellant.
Any cause of fire, in a Trident missiles, would more than likely cause the propellant to explode, thus releasing the radio-active material.
As for the MSM, all they have are mind games, through word contortion, Chomsky would laugh at their pathetic attempts.
“Well, that’s the thing. What if Labour or the Tories won in 2016? Would that still be the case?”
They could offer Scotland up as a nuke site, in the same way Germany, Netherlands, Turkey, Belgium and Italy host nukes for the US, but I don’t think the names on the NPT can be changed, so the only way for Scotland to possess Trident is to not sign NPT, like India, Pakistan, Israel and North Korea (well, they withdrew, but same thing).
In summary then, Severin smells.
I’m not really getting the whole nukes argument, they seem to present WMDs along with the 4th largest defence budget in the known universe as a positive case for the union.
But surely if we reject the union then the nukes HAVE to go. Otherwise will be either hosting their nukes (annexing Faslane already ruled out) which I understand goes against the non-proliferation treaty, or we are ‘seizing’ their nukes which also goes against the treaty and would make us an extremely extreme version of Iran/North Korea.
Never mind the bakery jokes, we don’t knead them.
Rev, you missed Edwina Currie on 5live claiming she remembers when Alex Salmond was a Labour member of parliament and was only interested in becoming PM of the UK. Apparently he was ‘rumbled’ and left to join the SNP. It’s at around 2:17 of Stephen Nolan’s show. I was literally dumbfounded when I listened to it.
Never mind the bakery jokes, we don’t knead them.
Dough!
Had James Morton taken part of a “Great British M.P Bake-Off”, instead of mixing with the
general public who like baking, (and it was a friendly atmosphere by the looks of it.)
contrast that with a baking contest with Ian Davidson, Michael Forsyth, George Foulkes(?),
I think then he may have a different opinion.
I have given up no quality foodstuffs whatsoever for the cause. I’m extending the hand of friendship dontchaknow.
The nickname’s Goodyear by the by. 🙂
@Caledonalistic
Rev, you missed Edwina Currie on 5live claiming she remembers when Alex Salmond was a Labour member of parliament and was only interested in becoming PM of the UK. Apparently he was ‘rumbled’ and left to join the SNP. It’s at around 2:17 of Stephen Nolan’s show. I was literally dumbfounded when I listened to it.
Edwina Currie and salmonella…She is an attention seeker in the same league as Louise Mensch. It seems the British nationalists are omitting so much bullshit at the moment that they are seriously risking yet more damage to the Ozone layer. That someone, who used to be a government minister, can come out with such absolute garbage, tells you everything you need to know about them, and the abject decline of the British state. FFS.
MochaChoca – NPT means Scotland cannot own nukes, but technically we could host them in the same way the countries I listed above host nukes for the US in NATO weapons sharing agreements. However, the Non-Aligned Movement (basically everyone except NATO and Russia) say this breaks articles 1 and 2 of the NPT (and it does), and it seems very unlikely any other country would become a nuclear sharing country. But that wouldn’t stop a Scottish Labour government doing a rUK Labour government a favour by agreeing to host them anyway, so as Stu says, it’s basically for us to decide when we elect a government in 2016.
James Morton is a son of Tom Morton (BBC Radio Scotland as well as writing for the Scotsman, etc.) who lives in Shetland.
“It’s about time the compliant, British MSM stopped treating scots as if they were all complete idiots. “
The bet is that enough of them are to sway the vote. There only need to be a few percent. I wonder if there are good statistics on what percentage of the Scottish electorate are in fact complete idiots and if that could be cross referenced against whether they will vote or not and on which paper they read.
I suppose it’s too much to ask for “Are you a complete idiot Y/N” to be a polling question? and how would you tell if they were telling the truth?
sorry, off topic as usual. In case anyone interested in this event;
Hanging Together:The Case For Union
Monday, 28 October 2013 from 17:00 to 18:00 (GMT)
Glasgow University
The School of Law presents Professor Jim Gallagher on the topic of Hanging Together: the case for Union.
Jim Gallagher is a Visiting Professor at the School of Law, University of Glasgow he holds a Fellowship at Nuffield College Oxford and is a fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh.. His main interest is the UK’s territorial constitution, and is the author (with Iain Maclean and Guy Lodge) of “Scotland’s Choices” on the independence referendum, “England and the Union: why and how to answer the West Lothian Question” as well as numerous articles in the Scotsman and other newspapers.
He was formerly Director General, Devolution for the UK Government, and an adviser at different times to both Gordon Brown and Tony Blair as Prime Ministers. In St Andrews House he was Head of the Justice Department from 2001.
Getting on for an hour, and hardly any baking jokes.
I was looking forward to seeing hundreds and thousands.
I might be being naive here, but everybody is saying that Labour will regain the Dunfermline seat without much difficulty. Why so? That would mean that Tories and Lib Dems would have to gang up on the SNP or that the Labourites would have to be much better than the SNP at getting their vote out.
Also the labour candidate has been all over the place on education.
I admit it is going to be close, but if the turnout reflects the 2011 GE, then I see no reason other than the infamous postal votes for a labour victory. What are your thoughts Scottish Skier?
I suppose it’s too much to ask for “Are you a complete idiot Y/N” to be a polling question?
You would still get a large share of “don’t know’s/undecided’s”!
“It always strikes me as strange for anyone in the public eye to try to influence the rest of us which way to vote when it seems clear they have not first sought out the facts.”
These are of course the perfect people to be pushed to the front by BT in order to influence the aforementioned Complete Idiots who arn’t going to question anyway.
Is that Hanging Together as in Hang Together or Hang Seperately? The usual positive case, if so…
@Ian Brotherhood
Well, I’m not rising to that one.
Regardless of the outcome of the referendum it will have one very positive spin off in that Scotland will have a far better and politically astute public that will probably not trust our MSM/BBC for a very long time.
I was reading the Andrew Gilligan article in the Telegraph and managed to pick so many holes in it that it resembled one of Rab C`s string vests. would I have been able to do that a year ago? I very much doubt it. This is mostly due to reading Rev. Stu`s excellent criticism of the press. Thanks Stu it really is an education reading Wings.
As an additional bonus the parties that put themselves forward for the 2016 Scottish Parliament elections better have their act together. And the MSM/BBC better watch out as well.
OT but this is tonight, CCA Glasgow I think it’s being webcast live as well if you arn’t close.
Baking jokes.
DOH! 😀
“Yeasterday,all my troubles seemed so far away”
Heck… maybe we are TS after all…
“Professor Richard Lynn said the Scots average IQ of 97 was well below the England and Wales average of 100.5 and on a par with the Republic of Ireland. London and the south-east of England scored top in the UK, with an average IQ of 102.”
I’m so stupid I can’t even do an ‘archive’ link to the original article (in the Scotsman)
@ jim mitchell
21 October, 2013 at 2:20 pm
“This time last year I was busy preparing for the final of the Great British Bake Off.”
I remember thinking at the time that his choice of baking a ‘Union’ cake in the final was significant, especially as it was a total and utter failure.
Ach, I just remembered a good baking joke but now it’s scone.
@The Man in the Jar
Regardless of the outcome of the referendum it will have one very positive spin off in that Scotland will have a far better and politically astute public that will probably not trust our MSM/BBC for a very long time.
I think one of the more eyeopening issues to come out of the referendum is the extent to which the Scottish electorate in general do not have a proper knowledge of our governance under the Union (just how biased the MSM here are against independence is another). How many people in Scotland really know much about the Barnett formula, or the McCrone Report, which was kept secret for around 30 years? I can’t claim to understand much about the Barnett formula for example. If you think about it, keeping people here ignorant of the way the Union works is much more advantageous to the No side than to the independence movement. I do not think for a moment that this was by accident either…Much like preventing kids from learning about Scottish history at school, or about our own distinctive culture.
False alarm, it seems that it’s just our most talented have to move south to find success. Does this count as a benefit of the union?
Come on folks, we’re on a roll now.
Of course there is also the possiblity that many of our previous generations were culled to keep us getting above ourselves.
“Being dumb has its benefits. Scottish soldiers who survived the second world war were less intelligent than men who gave their lives defeating the Third Reich, a new study of British government records concludes.
The 491 Scots who died and had taken IQ tests at age 11 achieved an average IQ score of 100.8. Several thousand survivors who had taken the same test – which was administered to all Scottish children born in 1921 – averaged 97.4″
kininvie lol
Here is another one of his sayings. For the don’t knows to think about.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.Benjamin Franklin
“Scottish Independence? – nae chance – it’s all pie in the sky!”
The problem with folk like James Morton is they think they can have their cake and eat it.
He wants to stay in the UK, but I have a buttery idea.
He thinks we’ll vote no, but I doughnut think so.
Still, at least he’s announced his position, unlike people like Chris Hoy and Susan Calman who try to strudel both camps.
James needs us to stay in the UK, because he only uses English flour – he doesn’t like the Flour of Scotland.
(I nicked that one from Only An Excuse…)
Altogether now…
‘Oh Flour of Scotland…’
The problem I have with companies such as Baxters or Mackies supporting a NO vote, is their rank hypocrisy.
Both companies trade on the name Scotland. Baxters of Scotland, and Mackie’s of Scotland, yet both seemingly seek to pretend that Scotland is just a region of England, and want to be ruled by what is an ostensibly English parliament .
Why doesn’t the ice cream from Mackies have a label saying ‘Mackie’s of the UK’, or why is it not ‘Baxters of the UK’. Rank outright hypocrisy, from both. If the UK is so good, why do they not use it on their products??????
As I’ve said before though, we should pity people such as those above, as in all reality, they probably have not even once considered that the FACTS show their assertions on the Union to be stupid. I’m guessing that both proprietors grew up being told we were, too poor, too wee and too stupid to run our own affairs, and likely still implicitly think it is true. They have not yet grasped how much they have been lied to by the BRITISH Labour party, and their Tory chums.
If somebody in the public eye wishes to spout on about how people should vote in the referendum, the very least they could do is check the FACTS regarding the matter first. Any business person, with a modicum of intelligence can tell that independence will benefit Scotland many times over, once they check the facts. The real problem is too many Scots lazily carry on thinking that what the BBC and their leftie school teacher taught them 50 years ago about poor wee Scotland was true.
Let’s help Baxter and Mackie…
Here’s a wee starter for them;
link to businessforscotland.co.uk
And YES, I do boycott them all. If they are ashamed of my country, Scotland, then I am ashamed to be seen with their products.
Proud Scottish unionists want to have their cake and eat it.
Altogether now…‘Oh Flour of Scotland…’
When shall we knead your like again
What I want to know about Scottish Unionists is what do they think when they go to small European nations, similar in size to Scotland? Do they think that the people in these nations are crazy to be independent? The truth is that it is Scotland which is in a utterly unique position compared to all the other small European nations (and the world for that matter). Why can they not see this, and if they do, what exactly is wrong with Scotland being independent? Why do we need to be tied to a state that is moving further and further to the right as time goes by?
Scottish bakery movies “The Bridie Frankenstein”
My Nan makes better jokes…
Ive just listened to the Stephen Nolan programme on Radio5, broadcast on the 19th October
link to bbc.co.uk
Edwina Currie really is so thick, stating that she remembers when Alex Salmond was a Labour MP. Not only that he wanted to be Prime Minister of the UK. Her ignorance just goes on and on. Clearly she hasn’t a clue what she is talking about, as mentioned starts at around 2hrs 17 mins of the broadcast and goes on for about 5 mns
The fundamentals of a written constitution must be in place before the next Scottish elections in 2016 to prevent any shenanigans involving the Westminster based parties.
“I’M NOT MADE OF STONE”
Neither is the Jimmy Reid Foundation, who had Caramel Wafers on offer at Saturday’s Common Weal fringe event.
I was naturally horrified as I savoured the lovely chocolatey, caramelly flavour.
It’s a well know fact that whinging Scots have a chapati on their shoulders….
“It’s a well know fact that whinging Scots have a chapati on their shoulders….”
If you don’t all stop these awful bakery puns, you’re going to get ciabatta-d.
I really miss Baxter’s soups. I gave the last two tins in my cupboard to the food bank collection at Harvest Thanksgiving.
I cannot remember the name Rev, but Aldi has a good ice cream, no need for Mackies north of the border
@Rev Stu
Don’t do that, you’ll get done for assault and Battenberg. “Crumbs!”
The BBC’s coverage of the referendum is diabolical.
Why else do Susan Calman and Severin Carrell get increased air time coverage?
Just after discussion on Scottish government White Paper on GMS this morning a BBC presenter said “talking about rubbish” at 9 am we are debating about Tesco’s waste of food,
Someone who has more time could check this out.
And on Sunday Politics Show no one could challenge the London Fiscal Policy spokesperson’s assertion that after independence a Scottish government would be worse placed to deal with economic problems than the UK government.
It’s true though. If you really want to piss off a unionist, tell them their home baking mings 😉
Morag:
I never buy anything made by Baxters, they give a large donation to the tories every year. So they are off my shopping list.
I haven’t read all the comments yet regarding the Guardian but, have you read the editorial about Scotland? Best ignorant part was, regarding Mr Salmond promises, “… Scotland would keep the queen, the pound, the NHS …”
Now that is just plain stupid, education required here, could they not have asked Severin?
I think what the recent output from the MSM/BBC clearly, again, shows is that Scotland – or the whole of the UK, for that matter – doesn’t have a properly functioning media. You know, the kind that is supposed to be a watchdog, hold the government, other politicians and also other media to account.
If the MSM worked properly, most of these lies, distortions and, frankly, brainfarts would’ve been called out by other media. But no. They’re all so in thrall to the establishment, so want to be a part of the establishment, desperate to be cosy with the rich and the powerful… And vice versa. So there’s no plurality of view, no scrutiny, just pap and propaganda, prostrate media persons (used to be called “journalists”) eager to have their tummy tickled by the powerful, and the politicians kowtowing and eager to have their tummy tickled by “big-name” “journalists” and media barons.
At first glance it seems the SNP and the Scottish Government are given scrutiny in the media, so the media can seem to be doing their job. But when the “scrutiny” is based on mis- and disinformation, rumours, innuendo, omissions, distortions, outright lies, and Scottish Labour press releases, the media are utterly failing the people of Scotland.
That is a sad state of affairs. Not least to all the people who actually work in the media sector in Scotland. Because they (or their bosses) are sawing the branch they sit on. Whatever the outcome of the referendum, there’s going to be swathes of Scottish people who will have lost their trust and confidence in the MSM. I have no idea what the media (globally, not just in Scotland) will be like in ten years’ time (who could’ve predicted the present situation ten years ago?) but once trust is lost, it’s extremely difficult if not impossible to gain it back.
Sorry for the long rant but this thing just makes me sad and angry on so many levels!
Oh, and about the nukes. I don’t pretend to be any kind of expert on the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty but doesn’t it mean that indy Scotland wouldn’t be allowed to have nukes on their soil by the international community? I remember when the Soviet Union disintegrated and their nukes were removed from the newly independent countries to Mother Russia pretty pronto. Soviet Union/Russia have never been very big on safety and wanted to have their lovely WMD in their own country, but there was also international pressure. Naturally from the US and their lapdogs, the UK, but also from scores of non-nuclear and non-NATO countries.
Maybe the non-proliferation treaty would allow Scotland to host UK/US nukes, if it chose to do so, but at least they wouldn’t be foisted on Scotland without a by-yer-leave. And I can’t see nukes being a vote winner in indy Scotland’s first GE in 2016.
Great, I just made my rant even longer. Must learn to compress. 🙁
Going to Asda for white bread flour and sun dried tomatoes so I can make a focaccia. This does not mean I support the union and neither does the spicy fruit loaf I’ve got in the machine just now.
I agree with the Rev awa wi your pastry puns, choux!
Carrell publishes his fantasies – not facts.
I no longer read anything he puts his name to.
@ lumilumi
Worse than a dysfunctional BBC or even a complicit mouthpiece for the “no campaign” BBC, is a BBC manufacturing its own “no” propaganda…
link to newsnetscotland.com
The broadcast media in the UK must be the most dumbed down in the whole of Europe. The news output at the BBC is a farce, just clumsy and politically weighted sound bites for an audience that is to be kept ignorant. Other public service broadcasters in Europe show heavyweight political debate and discussion programmes during the early evening with massive ratings while we have to put up with the physical manifestation of the Scottish cringe – Reporting Scotland. What we should be getting on tv instead of BBC London’s parochial crappy primetime mulch is ordinary Scots debating the issues that surround independence with the people who are asking for our vote. At the most important crossroads in Scotland’s history, all we get on tv is English people selling shit out their cellars and fat English people with eating disorders being locked in a clinic for days on end. The very few programmes out of Scotland that are bearable to watch are usually broadcast at times nobody can bloody watch them! Broadcasting here is a fucking joke.
I am surprised Alex talks of removing Trident as an decision of the first government. What happened to a constitutional ban?
I’ll be looking for details of a written constitution in the white paper, I am wondering if the timetable for a written constitution is now beyond 2016?
I was thinking as it’s awards season, maybe we should inaugurate an annual Wings Press Award? There could be several different categories (worst article – S. Carrell; Completely bonkers- A. Cochrane,etc, etc). Who knows it could become Scotland’s definitive press award !
Or is this just another half baked idea?
@ian, above, and others
Seeing the dismal state of the BBC’s domestic output, especially in current affairs, has made me take a look at the Finnish media as well.
It’s not all milk and honey here, either, but at least major papers give platform to different views (politicians, various experts) and report on the bad things without an overtly bigoted political bias. There’s sensationalism creeping in but all in all it isn’t as bad as in the UK and Scotland.
Our national broadcaster YLE is a bit lefty-greeny, the commercial channels are more right-wing (for Finnish “right-wing” read left of UK Labour). Still, the current affairs programmes even on the commercial channels don’t give an easy ride to any politicians of whatever party. Some current affairs programmes on YLE have in-depth discussions about policies, ideas, morals etc. with one party/experts one week, another party/experts with different views the next week. Or debate programmes where the panel has representatives of all major political parties and none, civic organisations and even “ordinary people”.
Finns generally think very highly of the BBC. We love the nature documentaries (David Attenborough even did a commercial for a Finnish fizzy drink because he’s so popular in Finland!) and period dramas and the more gritty modern dramas/police procedurals. People are quite surprised when I tell them how dastardly the BBC is, especially in Scotland.
I just hope that if and when Scotland becomes independent, the baby won’t be thrown out with the bathwater. I think independent Scotland should have a public broadcaster along the lines of YLE, STV, NRK, DRK. A public broadcaster that isn’t totally at the mercy of market forces (which flood the schedule with dumbed-down American and reality guff!) but can make thoughtful programmes that reflect the local culture and concerns, and also programmes that have wider appeal. DRK’s Borgen, anyone? UK politicians were falling over themselves to praise it – didn’t see the irony 🙂 And SBC would have an ace over the Nordic broadcasters: English. It’s easier to sell TV programmes in the world market if they’re made in English instead of a weird Nordic language.
And what would happen to BBC Alba if there wasn’t a public broadcaster in Scotland? The SBC would keep it up, just like YLE and STV and NRK provide news and some other programming in the Sami language. Gaelic or Sami aren’t commercially viable from the broadcasting viewpoint, but they are important, vital, to the people whose language it is, even if they know Finnish/Swedish/Norwegian/English.
muttley79 says:
21 October, 2013 at 4:00 pmThat someone, who used to be a government minister, can come out with such absolute garbage, tells you everything you need to know about them, and the abject decline of the British state.
Yes, but more significantly to my mind – less so than Much more so the revelation that
“It has been well documented as to how much of a shambles the introduction of Stamp Duty Land Tax (SDLT) in Scotland was. HMRC admitted that they did not realise that Scottish property law was different to English and Welsh property law.”
link to legalknowledgescotland.com
Starting to think that Ye Olde UK and the shining intellects of Whitehall may be too wee, too poor and too….whatchamcalit to be independent. FFFS
Can someone please tell me why , if these nuclear weapons are so volatile and dangerous that even moving them is so hazardous, what is the point in having them in the first place ? They are surely useless , and no deterrent to anyone except the poor buggers who’s job it is to launch them , as far as I can see, they are just as likely to blow up in their faces.
damned typos!
A snippet of information: Severin Carrell’s degree is in ‘Peace Studies’, acquired at Bradford University.
link to uk.linkedin.com
And who is Bradford’s Professor of ‘Peace Studies’? (The subject is not one which better-known institutions have sought to provide.) The rather strange and wacky, but consistently anti-SNP, Tom Gallagher.
Severin Carrell isn’t he the scribbler who dreamt up the SNP delaying the white paper release from September to November. When no one had ever proposed the White paper would be released in any month other than November!
Rev. Stu.
Sounds as if you are suspicous as to who really employs Severin Carrell.
Just saw this on Twitter
“@man_labour: Can @scottishgreens ask @ZaraKitson if her brother Thomas has links to UDA or any loyalist organisations?link to img855.imageshack.us #Dunfermline”.
Obviously a Labour attempt to smear the Green candidate. Of course, if this is a photo of her brother and he is involved in what’s being suggested then quite possibly that’s the end of Ms Kitson.
Really don’t get the Mackie’s ice cream fetish. Compared to Cream O’ Galloway it’s rank pish. Their Haggis and Cracked Black Pepper crisps are da bomb though.
“lease-back arrangement”?
When was the status of the Sovereign Base Areas of Akrotiri and Dhekelia, ceded to the UK by treaty in 1960 changed?
@Gav
I am wondering if the timetable for a written constitution is now beyond 2016?
I do not think there has ever been any proposal that a written constitution should be developed by 2016.
As I understand it, the SNP’s policy is that – assuming a ‘Yes’ vote and a win for the SNP in the 2016 election – a written constitution will be developed over the course of that parliament, i.e. by 2020. There will be more than enough for the Scottish Government to do in the period between the referendum and the 2016 election, negotiating the details of independence with the UK government, the EU and so on, without organising an extensive public consultation on the constitution. A constitution is very important, and so it is better to allow the time to get it right. Also, once Scotland is actually independent, it will be easier to get people who have opposed independence to contribute to the debate on the constitution, which should help with reconciliation after the unavoidably divisive referendum campaign.
My guess is that the Scottish Parliament’s independence legislation will provide an interim constitution of sorts, but that this will, as far as is compatible with independence, keep existing constitutional arrangements.
link to scotland.gov.uk
And
link to constitutionalcommission.org