“Better Together” website, May 2013:
“In 500 days Scots will answer the most important question we have ever been asked. On all the big questions – on currency, on the EU, on pensions – the nationalists have shown they don’t have the answers to the questions that we and people all over Scotland are asking.
Today we ask over 500 more questions. This list is by no means exhaustive – instead, it aims to demonstrate the range of different questions that still need answered. Many more questions already exist and as more of the big issues are debated more and more questions will arise. That’s why we will continue to ask the difficult questions.
It’s time we got some answers.”
Scottish Government website, November 2013:
“The Scottish Government’s white paper published today, called Scotland’s Future – Your Guide to an Independent Scotland, will provide hundreds of pages of answers to key questions on independence.
Scotland’s Future – Your Guide to an Independent Scotland, which is the most detailed blueprint for an independent country ever published, contains a comprehensive question and answer section, running to more than 200 pages, providing answers to 650 questions on independence. “
“Better Together” website, January 2014:
“For a long time we have been saying that Alex Salmond is spending too much public money promoting his campaign to break up the UK. Now it is clear that the people of Scotland think that too.
In recent weeks people will have seen billboards, newspaper adverts and leaflets advertising the SNP’s White Paper manifesto for breaking up the UK. This is all paid for by the Scottish taxpayer, rather than the money being spent on important things like schools, hospitals and childcare. Some reports put the amount as high as £800,000.
It’s clear that people in Scotland think the SNP have gone too far in how they use scarce public funds.”
So, that seems clear. The No camp has hundreds and hundreds of questions which the Scottish Government must answer. But when it does so, it better not actually spend any money giving the people of Scotland those answers. We presume it’s supposed to just tell a couple of guys in a pub and hope the word gets out.
(The £800,000 figure they quote, in their usual weasel-worded “We’ve got no actual evidence for this claim, but someone somewhere said it so we’re going to present it as a fact” manner, represents 20p per Scottish voter.)
It’s no wonder even BT’s own backers think it’s useless.
Perhaps we could send out smoke signals throughout Scotland answering Alistair darling and his better together bullshit questions although we would have to pay for wood and kindling?
Looking at the last three words in the second BT quote -Anyone fancy pointing out to them that our public funds wouldn’t be quite so scarce if we cut out the middleman and kept all our taxes here, rather than sending them to Westminster and just getting a percentage back?
BT are becoming beyond parody. Funny how you never hear of high-profile defections from yes to No as well.
The concept of a democratically elected government not using state resources to clearly set out their plans (which were a manifesto commitment) and answer valid questions is interesting.
The danger of cobbling together a few quid, and cutting and pasting unreferenced internet materials is that you may end up with a document a bit like the Iraq Intelligence dossier.
BT adopting the SLAB method of campaigning by being against anything that the SG or the YES team do, .even if it means contradicting themselves. But who cares, because nobody will notice. Oops…
Maybe BT think SG will communicate answers telepathically – evil cybernat mind tricks…
To date the 1 and only question asked of “Better Together”, (on several occasions by many), has never been answered; when will they reveal their fully costed , positive vision of a retained Scotland bound by the terms of devolution under the control of Westminster ?
Suspect it is because thay can’t and wouldn’t if they could, as it would look ridiculous up against transformational Independence for the inhabitants of Scotland.
Words are cheap, 20p per head of population is pretty darn good.
The SG marketing department should be applauded for it’s canny use of funds.
Maybe BT are a little jealous considering they took all that money from private interests and stilll can’t come up with ANY reasonable answers nor anything like a decent marketing strategy. It’s all just moan, moan friggin moan…
And how much did HMG spend on their official Scotland papers?
“No pessimist ever discovered the secret of the stars, or sailed to an uncharted land, or opened a new doorway for the human spirit”
Helen Keller
Or these from Haniel Long
“The most frightening pages of history are those which reveal how easily conditions making a desert of the human spirit may come into existence, with the oozings away of incentive and kindliness in our natural social structure”
“To strip a man of all loyalties but those to the state, makes him not only a worm but a monster, without a shred of humanity“
I don’t see the NEGATIVE NO Campaign complaining about the amount of UK Taxpayers’ money Westminster have spent, and are continuing to spend, on churning out paper after paper denigrating Scottish independence.
Sorry just heard the cost of producing & promoting the positive case for staying in the clutches of the Union are in the region of £889,762.43 (after discount of VITOL coupons).
Honest, I’ve heard this somewhere like BBC Rockall or Better Together St Kilda.
(Possible re-write required in light of the above from a trusted Scottish MSM source; isn’t this how its supposed to work to get it on the BBC ?)
It was none other than the leader of the Better Together campaign who asked for the campaigns to be properly funded because of the ‘thirst for information’. The evidence is right here:
link to news.bbc.co.uk
(1hr.20)
They have nothing to offer us!
They have nothing to tell us!
They have nothing that will benefit us!
They have ….nothing! …NOTHING!
And as the year progresses, those people of Scotland who have not looked into this properly will begin to do so. Curiosity will finally get them asking questions from both camps. Once they realise that BT and Westminster offer nothing; and not even the Status Quo once they destroy the Barnett Formula, then many, upon many, will edge towards ‘Yes’.
Simply put …it is better to vote ‘Yes’ and at least approach the table to have something to negotiate with, rather than vote ‘No’ and get less than even nothing, for that is what awaits Scotland as Westminster swings in its savage cuts as punishment to Scotland for questioning their system.
Would like to see the books on how much BT have spent shmoozing the MSM, any way we can have a look at these figures?
Somehow, I doubt it but I bet it leaves the WP expenditure in the shade.
@gordoz et al –
Yep. They have only one question to answer – where’s the positive case for the Union? Doesn’t matter if it’s one side of A4, or 600 pages.
So far, we’ve had nothing more substantial than a Hannah Montana lyric. I’m not knocking Ms Montana. It was a good song, but ‘Best of Both Worlds’ needs a wee bit of meat on the bones.
Why don’t we have one of our MP’s ask at PMQ just how much it is costing for all the anti Independence papers they have so many civil servants concocting.
Perhaps the Better Together Campaign will answer a question or two for me. Which is why if they are winning, and their self serving opinion polls say so. Then why are they so worried?
What is their answer to the Westminster position on Welfare and Pensions, will people receiving both still get them or will the Westminster (all parties) continue with austerity?
Will they continue to support Trident against the wishes of the majority in Scotland?
There, not quite 500 but given their propensity for not answering any I imagine that it might be a long time before I hear a reply.
Just heard Lyse Doucet on BBC World News saying Scots should heed a cautionary tale about how Independence went for Southern Sudan and all the bloodshed that ensued ! So the BBC are going World wide with their trash ! Lets have a campaign to boycott all BBC news !
How much did the Labour-GCC fuck up of George Square cost the taxpayer again? Or, the multitude of payoffs to their pals in the private sector just before the local elections? Tell me again how much debt Labour strangled local councils with PFI schemes?
Introducing the new 2014 Darlingbot, with enhanced pre-programmed selective memory loss, just press ‘auto’ and it will continue spouting pish every week, forever. Comes with free spare empty grey suit. Other models available in shades of blue is the Sarwarbot, Lamontbot, Baileybot, McDougallbot and Davidsonbot (special order). All available with varying degrees abilities to suit the Tory wallet. Check BetterTogether.com for the latest deals including our new Conservative loyalty card. Remember to ‘like’ us on Facebook (even if you don’t we’ll do it for you).
All the same, likening Scotland to South Sudan tells you as much about what the British think of us as you need to know.
@Ian Brotherhood
Hear they’re working on another version of the same old song. Backing vocals by the No Buddies but no idea who their front man is.
We now hear – again – that Mr Cameron has refused to a televised debate with Mr Salmond. Is it because he can’t bear to incriminate himself so obviously in the blank space occupied by the No campaign; their case being devoid of ambition and advantage, or does he not wish to be associated with the future 500+ questions as to what was so inadequate, incompetent or even worse about Westminster that Scotland sought/got independence?
I think the post title is missing an ‘s. 🙂
Or possibly quotation marks bracketing the second and third words!
@Ian Brotherhood
Keep thinking to myself the ‘British Together’ lot are offering very bad advice with that slogan.
Seem to remember eternal advice about important decisions and being decisive in life;
Something like “You can’t have the best of both worlds; it’s a myth, please make up your mind”
Albamac > Nice one !
Now that this article has hit the internet airwaves I expect that the BBC will quickly respond and request an interview with Mr Darling to impartially explore the detail. In a recent interview Brian Taylor sat back and allowed Darling to spout the same old same generalities without challenge. Here is a chance for Brian Taylor to perform as a journalist rather than host in a chat show.
All together on at a time.
BT coundnae run a tap.
The No campaign’s for dummies
The “No campaign” for dummies
Aye – both of these would’ve worked better. 🙂
The No campaign are dummies.
The No campaign four dummies – Darling, Lamont, Rennie, Davidson.
I see Ming Campbell (ok I know – who he?) has come out and said that if Scotland votes No, then England should be given “Home Rule”
Westminster Unionists were predicting, no so long ago, there would be droughts in the UK.
They got that wrong.
The Unionists know the answer to the ‘citizens right’ in Scotland to have the £, the Queen and EU continued negotiated membership. The terms agreed under the 1707 Union, ratified by Law by both countries forever, and which could never be changed without the agreement of both Parliaments. Under the agreed terms of the 1707 Union they agreed to share the Queen, the £ (sharedvcurrency) and Scotland ‘sovereign right’ to negotiated EU membership, which for which people in Scotland voted and have complied with every EU directive/Law ratified in Brussels.
Scotland has been a good and enthusiastic EU member. Westminster and people in the rest of the UK have caused division in the EU. The EU members clapped and cheered enthusiastically,
the notion of Scottish continued negotiated membership.
Westminster Unionists would be breaking the terms of the 1707 Union, the agree right of Scottish ‘sovereignty’, by UK/EU/International, reneging on the agreed term of the 1707 Union. if Westminster Unionists tried to stop Scotland using the £, having the Queen or preventing Scottish negotiated membership of the EU. Hey, what’s new they have reneged on the terms of the 1707 Union agreement illegally, incessantly.
The reason why the Westminster Unionists are lying, stirring ‘B’s, is because they know the Answer. They can’t stop Scotland using the £ (the agreed shared currency), the Crown (the agreed shared monarchy) and Scottish negotiated membership of the EU, is because Westminster Unionists can’t prevent it, unless they want to break UK/EU/Interhational Law, NATO and EU rules.
The SNP/Yes campaign have given them the answer time and time again, and they know it. The reason they keep on asking the Question is to cause dessent and absolute trouble. They have form, for that kind of unprincipled behaviour. Same old, same old pathetic Unionist Liars.
continued membership
Campbell is a Minger. A sad delusional, lying foolish Lawyer. A joke.
The No campaign won’t give straight answers about what would happen to Scotland in the event of a No vote because the reality would be too dire. The BBC and MSM are complicit in spreading scare stories and it’s up to us to expose all those lies.
On TV debates the No campaigners are given an easy time. It’s about time awkward questions were asked which would make them squirm as they tried to wriggle out of answering them.
I’ll have a go too
The No Campaign’s four dummies up front and circa a thousand behind.
Like my Grand used to say, “lets have a go at them, they are but few… and pretty coward to boost”
@ken500
Hi Ken, I have been reading your posts of late and followed up some of your links, I agree the info you are putting forward makes a lot of sense, could even be a game changer.
Maybe it would be a good idea to expand on this subject via a dedicated article right here on Wings.
P.S. I also read somewhere that Westminster already has the info regarding EU membership for an Independent Scotland but they’re unwilling to release it because of the contents therein.
Darling and Davidson both used ‘the best of both worlds’ in their New Year statements.
The sheer poverty of imagination, ambition, or honesty, is reflected in the limited vocabulary being deployed. The tactics used by The Hidden Persuaders have seldom become so obvious (and crucially, so early), in any campaign to sell anything.
To snaffle a vintage Saatchi slogan – ‘Better Together’ isn’t working. And they know we know they know it.
Westminster is England’s parliament,elected by English votes.We might as well send a small number of delegates to the Japanese parliament for all the difference it would make to policy decisions.
No offence Rev., just in the spirit of having a wee humorous dig at the Us, I think the thread title could be justifiably accused of being a little tautologous. 🙂
The Unionist wasted £Billions of Scottish taxes, spent on London City tax evading, illegal wars and illegally dumping Trident on Scottish soil without consultation of a separate Scottish Parliament with ‘sovereign rights’. Illegally taking taxes and defrauding monies from Scotland, secretly and blantantly lying. Breaking UK/EU and International Law at every opportunity.
Many Westminster Unionists should be in jail but evade prosecution by using Westminster ‘privilege’ to engage in criminal behaviour. They are above the Laws of the UK and break every Law that they make, then sweep their crimes under the carpet. Helped by a compliant, tax evading right wing MSM. Charlatans and thieves.
The SNP gov was elected to hold a Referendum, and given the majority vote to use Scottish taxpayers monies needed to do it, lawfully. It fact not to do it, would have broken manifesto promises, Leave that to the broken Unionists.
The SNP are within their rights and BT know it. Another misleading statement by BT in the hope some mud will stick.
O/T A good article on BELLA, in regards to the Scotland Bill.
Totally agree, Ken500.
Another thing is, the Unionists broke one of the conditions of the Treaty of Union when they introduced the hated Poll Tax years ago by treating Scotland as a testing ground for this tax a year before it was implemented in England, thereby treating one nation differently from another.
@ Bertie K 5 January 2014 at 1.39 am
Can’t give the link. Got it on 01-03 ‘To our English Brother’ – check recent posts at the top of the page. The link is on that thread,
It can be printed out.
‘The Union and the Law – 18 June 07 – David Walker – Regius Professor of Law, Glasgow University 1959-1990’.
The Article explains the agreed terms of the 1707 Union. ie agreed by both Scotland and England. Uses the actual wording to explain the terms of the Union. The terms agreed of a separate Parliament/Legal system/Church (education) forever with nothing being ever allowed to change that ever.
Maybe it can be googled. The Westminster Unionist totally know that Scotland can share the £ (currency), Crown and Scottish separate negotiated EU membership. To try and stop this by Westminster ( ie England) would break the terms agreed, breaking UK/EU/and International Law. They have been illegally breaking the terms of the Union Agreement consistently aided by the crooks in Westminster. Especially, since 1928 (Universal suffrage).
The Unionist know exactly why Scotland can keep the £(shared currency), shared Crown and separate Scottish negotiated EU membership (people in Scotland voted for it). It is the usual blatant lying Unionist Con job, added by the compliant UK gov controlled MSM. A total fabric of lies to catch attention. How can Unionists be so incredible stupid. No need to answer. It is a total charade, Oh how …?? to succeed. A parcel of lies.
Under the Terms of the Union, Scotland was guaranteed a separate Scottish Parliament/Legal system/Church (education) forever, nothing could ever change that. Unless the separate Scottish Parliament agreed. Westminster isn’t even allowed to tax Scotland using English financial Law, without the agreement of the Scottish separate Parliament. The Barnett formula is illegal and secret, the appointed Scottish Office is illegal and secret. Scotland major industry (Oil) is taxed at a different rate from City of London tax evadec enterprise. HMRC is not fit for purpose. Taxes are raised in Scotland by Westminster Parliament (illegally) without any agreement by the separate Scottish Parliament. Westminster had no right under Law to interfere in Scottish fiscal matters. Blair’s London Supreme Appeal Court is illegal and breaks Scottish ‘sovereign rights’ to a guaranteed separate Legal system. It is an expensive ‘White Elephant’ with no powers under the Union Agreement.
The ‘Parcel of rogues’ were not so daft, as people think, ‘to sell oot Scotland’s rights’.
The UK Union should have been like the EU Union, separate countries agreeing on common matters but having no right to impose taxation, without agreement. Westminster has been reneging on the terms of the UK Union Agreement for years.
How much did the McCrone Report cost the taxpayer? And how much has it cost the people of Scotland by Westminster burying its explosive content for over 30 years?
There are lies, damned lies and Project Fear.
People in Scotland don’t even have to vote for a ‘separate Parliament’. They were guaranteed a ‘separate Parlament, Legal system/Church(Education ‘sovereign rights’ forever, which could not be changed, under the terms of the 1707 Union Agreement. What happened?
Unlike the No campaign the Yes campaign doesn’t have the entire MSM on their side to get their message across. People in Scotland pay more than 20p a day on the BBC license fee and newspapers that lie to them on a daily basis.
“Westminster is England’s parliament,elected by English votes.We might as well send a small number of delegates to the Japanese parliament for all the difference it would make to policy decisions.”
This is the sort of argument that sounds great in theory, but in practice doesn’t add up to much. It relies on an assumption that the key dynamic in Westminster is between Scottish and English interests. There’s no evidence to back that up – regional interests are far more important, which is why we have a constituency based system of representation in the first place. It also implies that representative democracy is a waste of time if your MP happens to be in opposition – which goes against the basic principles that underpin our system of democracy (i.e. that there’s an intrinsic value to having local communities represented in decision-making, whether they’re on the winning side of a given vote or not).
Seem to remember a few weeks ago that South Sudan comparison was made somewhere else,can’t place it though. Just another stop on the bt merry go round.
@ James123
You’re right. The MSM should be asking and answering the questions, not just, like 3 wise monkeys, reporting that others are asking and answering (or not answering) them.
There’s a great movie, out last year: I don’t know whether anyone here might have seen it. It’s title is No, it’s by Pablo Larrain, and it’s about the 1988 referendum campaign in Chile that saw the end of Pinochet.
When someone makes a film about Scotland in 2014, let’s hope it’s entitled Yes, the one about the country that got back its dignity, rather than Cringe, the one about the country that’s scared of its own shadow.
I’ll bet the Rev gets a few – maybe quite a few – good lines.
Unlike the shadowy MSM, or (re Vronsky’s contribution on the next thread) the organ grinder’s parrot.
Better Together and the British state, the “Little and Large” of British stand-up comedy, sorry politics.
Thanks to their un-challenging appearance and corny material, most of which would have been better left where it had previously been buried, Sid and Eddie dominated the airwaves for what seamed like an eternity. Mogadon for the masses, at tax payers expense. All the BBC’s comedy, wildlife and drama productions are intended to take your attention away from the principle purpose of the BBC, which is to create a London centric consensus, not just in the UK but worldwide.
The only things I can think of that Scotland has in common with South Sudan, is we both have a coastline and are both sitting on top of billions of barrels of oil. Funny that.
Vote Yes to keep Scotland’s revenues in Scotland.
The BBC need to get their story straight. Not that long ago South Sudan’s independence was being enthusiastically welcomed by western governments – even William Hague went out there to say how jolly pleased HMG was, apparently. The fact that they have extensive untapped oil reserves is, I’m sure, nothing at all to do with it.
Are you sure Major? 🙂
The leaders the West supported in South Sudan, where the Oil fields are, have fallen out. One of them found out the other one was going to sack him. Tribal loyalties. The rejected ‘Muslin?’ one started a fight to take control of the Oilfields, The President/leader the West supports (to get their Oil Companies in) took their Military in to fight against the (smaller) tribe of the rebel. The people have fled to escape the violence, and are now displaced with the UN trying to protect them. The West has ended up being on the side of the aggressor, but trying to stop the violence.
In the negotiations following the Yes vote one of Scotland’s requirements should be that the billions in taxes that HMRC has failed to collect are included in rumpUK share of the assets, as future income to which we are entitled, but to which we’ll surrender claim, to keep things sweet.
If South Sudan is Scotland it follows that Sudan is rUK.
And by coincidence Sudan was provided with legal “advice” by Professor James Crawford.
link to pca-cpa.org
Apparently to little effect:
link to wilmerhale.com
We can perhaps infer that Professor Crawford did not have to lower his client acceptance standards materially to act for the No campaign.
CameronB
I’m fecked if I can find a coastline for South Sudan (except on the rapidly disappearing Lake Tchad perhaps)
@ Dave McEwan Hill
Silly me, I was thinking of Somalia. You are, of course, correct.
Better Together’s article about Scots’ opinions on indyref spending was released on the 29th December, and sourced a poll they’d commissioned from YouGov. I’ve asked both BT and YouGov for the source data but haven’t had a response from either.
Has anyone else seen it?
YouGov are members of the British Polling Council, one of whom’s rules is that poll results should be published in full within 2 days of initial reports.
“Just heard Lyse Doucet on BBC World News saying Scots should heed a cautionary tale about how Independence went for Southern Sudan and all the bloodshed that ensued” ?
I was thinking that the BBC journailsts have lost all touch with reality, then I remembered the Tory MP in Parliamentary Committee did say that the rUK might have to bomb Scottish airports to prevent terrorists attacking England.
So BBC journalists and Westminster MPs have lost all touch with reality, sitting in their bunkers at Westminster and Broadcasting House, playing out the script of Dr Strangelove, but for real.
The damning bit about YouGov is who they choose to poll. They were a massive over 20 points wrong going into the 2011 Scottish election. They are a joke but not a very funny one. MSM are of course aware of this
Of anybodu gets contacted and asked if theywant to join a polling panel theyshould say yes and indicate that they support the Tories or UKIP. That should guarantee them being used in independence polls
The No campain for DUMMIES,. Am sick of being force fed SHITE, 9 mth,s tae go,Ah canna stand the taste, has anybody got a link fur DUMMIES, preferably they BIG TOFFEE / CANDY WAN,S, Ah wuld rether hiv SWEETNESS N LIGHT N NO SHITE, Ah big box , Ah, ll share them oot.
@Ronnie
Try http://www.snp.org 🙂
Everything that’s been said is true ! However ” your ordinary man/women in the street ” probably can’t afford broadband and can’t view this site . I do my best by telling everyone about citizen journalism especially this site and hope they will log onto it . It really boosts my confidence in Independence to read all the posts people put up on this site . Let’s keep it up ! We are better than ” Better together ” !
Suppose it is true that it cost £800,000. It wouldn’t cover one Tory Banker’s bonus.
Would be great if all the pro indy sites could get together to print a new Scottish news paper. Each contributing what they can in their own unique style within one format. How refreshing would that be?
Any millionaires reading who`d like to help? :->
Pro Indy supporters could easily buy up the Scotsman, the share price is so low, and influence the editorial stance, or management, as shareholders. Or ignore it and just let it go to the wall. There are plenty of alternative Media sites getting the information out. The web is a great asset.
Tory bankers vast salaries and bonuses are back up to 35%. None of the Banks are making a profit. The Bankers fund the Tory Party. Not one of the Bankers in Britain have gone to jail for their crimes, protected by Westminster.
Quote ‘They are untouchable’
The gap between the richest and the poorest is widening. The poor, old and vulnerable are dying. Bankrupt Britain.
New slogan: better than better together.