The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland


The murder of words

Posted on March 16, 2016 by

This headline appears in The Times today:

timesctr

It’s an absolute lie. But that’s not the interesting thing.

We’ve remarked on this site many times about how if you read the actual text of a newspaper story, you’ll very often find that the truth is in fact the exact opposite of the attention-grabbing headline. Sometimes authors will complain that that’s the fault of the sub-editor (who usually writes the headline), but Linday McIntosh has no such excuse here, because she repeats the lie in the very first paragraph.

As you find out a few inches further down the page, SPICe has not said that the SNP’s reforms to Council Tax are regressive. It’s said the opposite – that the reforms are an improvement, but that the tax overall is still regressive, which is true enough.

“While the government’s proposals make the council tax more proportionate than the present system, they fall short of making the council tax a ‘proportionate’ tax.”

(Our emphasis.) That’s a fairly massive distinction. SPICe said that the reforms made Council Tax LESS regressive, the headline and opening para say that they’ve made it MORE regressive. That couldn’t be more dishonest. It’s an exact reversal of the truth.

The Herald, though, goes further still.

heraldctr

As well as making the story the front-page lead (relegating the trivial matter of the UK government slashing Scotland’s budget by £200 million to a tiny box at the bottom of the page), the Herald points out in its own sub-header that its headline is a lie.

In correctly noting that the reforms make Council Tax “only slightly fairer”, the paper completely rubbishes its own claim that the “Wealthy [are] to benefit most”. Because if the wealthy will pay more under the reforms, making the tax even a little fairer, then it’s a staggering perversion of language to say that the wealthy have benefited.

(Cynically, the Herald’s report omits the quote from SPICe entirely.)

spicegraph

We can’t believe we’re having to spell this out. You know it and we know it, because we understand basic English and arithmetic. If reforms take money from the wealthy and make a tax fairer and more progressive – even if it’s only a little bit – then it’s OBVIOUSLY idiotic to claim they’ve done the exact opposite.

Yet that’s what’s happened. On the one hand, we suppose we should be grateful that the papers are now doing our job for us by pointing out that their own stories are drivel. But we wish we could come up with a better conclusion than that the journalists of the Times and the Herald were either liars, morons, or both.

Print Friendly

    1 Trackbacks/Pingbacks

    1. 16 03 16 14:25

      The murder of words | Stuff from the Internet |...

    139 to “The murder of words”

    1. theMadMurph says:

      Finally, it all makes sense! Using their headline logic, we are Better Together!

    2. Tony Little says:

      It is difficult to understand why journalists (I use the term advisedly) put their names to this blatant manipulation. But in fact they don’t care as no one will hold them to account. The drop in newspaper sales means that the articles themselves are read by fewer and fewer people, so the headline becomes the propaganda tool.

      This is why some retailers appear to ‘hide’ the National from view as their headlines are usually in total contradiction to the message being promulgated by the Corporate Media.

      The Headlines are the new (actually an old) Propaganda tool. I predict that they will get progressively more absurd as the election approaches in direct correlation with the drop in actual paper sales.

    3. Ranald Lithgow says:

      So the lying headline and the actual story aren’t “better together”?

    4. Les Wilson says:

      ” the Times and the Herald are either liars , morons, or both”
      I will settle for the accuracy of that comment.

    5. Lollysmum says:

      It seems that the press has now progressed to outright lies. Methinks they are worried & so they should be.

      #SNP #BothVotesSNP

    6. mogabee says:

      Moronic liars.

      Worse. They STILL believe we are stupit! 🙂

    7. Breastplate says:

      Are these not some examples of cognitive dissonance which the Nawbags are exceptionally good at?

    8. Cuilean says:

      “We wish we could come up with a better explanation than that the journalists of the Times and the Herald were either liars, morons, or both.”

      They are both.

      Honestly, how do you cope, day in, day out, exposing Yoon propaganda?

      Thank you.

    9. Iain says:

      You can complain to:

      Independent Press Standards Organisation
      Gate House
      1 Farringdon Street
      London EC4M 7LG
      Telephone: 0300 123 2220
      Email: inquiries [at] ipso [dot] co [dot] uk

    10. Fred says:

      Wonder if these exalted journo’s get wee notes in their in-trays informing them the Wings has marked their cards, yet again?

    11. Training Day says:

      Small wonder, then, that Lindsay McIntosh is rapidly becoming the favourite poodle of Pacific Quay, ahead even of Crichton and Cochrane.

    12. X_Sticks says:

      In terms of propaganda it’s only really the headline that counts.

      The british establishment controls the headlines.

      They no longer care about truth their only mission is to damage the SNP as much as possible before May.

      Their fear is palpable and it shows in their propaganda.

    13. Neil Cook says:

      Both papers preach to the yoons, not as though anybody with a brain cell would read this tosh!! Do they actually think Joe Public would go and buy these rags !!

    14. Hamish McTavish says:

      I heard an interesting programme on R4 last Monday evening. It seems that “news” is simply there for the benefit of the advertisers.

      If you can tolerate the fact that the presenter is Andrew Brown of the Guardian it makes an interesting 25 minute listen.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b072j3g6

      The hard-copy readership no longer matters it seems. The loss of income from that portion of readership is trivial in comparison to the income from advertisers.

      The content of the news media must shape the desire of an advertiser to use it so, it would seem that advertisers must be complicit in the lies, because they don’t seem to care whether a news outlet tells lies or not, just so long as they deliver advertising reach.

    15. One_Scot says:

      The days of when you could take the BBC or the newspapers word are long gone.

      The systemic culture of the Yoon media, TV and papers, of spreading proven lies is so common place now, that frankly I no longer believe anything they say or print.

      Scotland must be one of the most information manipulated countries in the world.

      This will never change unless we make it change, and the first step to that change comes on MAY 5th.

      Use both votes SNP x 2, because if we don’t get that majority, believe you me, the Twatter Yoons and the Yoon media will make sure that we never forget it.

    16. dramfineday says:

      I think the headline is quite restrained. Murder of the soul would be more like it as the authors, attempting to destroy confidence in the SNP, drive darkness into their own soul and a stake into the heart of their businesses.

      Vile (and stupid).

    17. galamcennalath says:

      This is all evidence that the propaganda ‘war’ is hotting up. Crude lies with no subtly just emphasises the panic which is setting in.

      Yoonery are well aware of where the May election’s result will lead.

      A) if the SNP get an overall majority then IndyRef2 can be called at a time when it can be won.

      B) no SNP majority means no chance of IndyRef2 nor independence for a long time.

      The stakes are high for everyone. The colonial media will headline SNPBAD, even when the true message is the opposite!

    18. Independent Press Standards Organisation C/O Tam Sheppard’s Trick Shop, London,are as about as effective as Dover Hoose,London England, or the EBC huge dustbin for complaints. Still worth letting them know, even if they are useless.

      Who’d have thunk it, that the Onionist Meejah are serial liars?

    19. Grouse Beater says:

      The administration of North Korea would be very proud of our newspapers. They do a fine job of fooling the population.

    20. thomaspotter2014 says:

      Lying with skewed Establishment sanctioned headlines is the modus operandi of these horrible shower of boot licking scum.

      Their fear and desperation is so strong you can almost taste it.

      Not long now.

      The cracks in the state fabric are shaking the whole corrupt rotten structure-their end is just around the corner.

      Thank fuck

    21. Doug Daniel says:

      Yeah, definitely both.

      Is it any wonder journalism is held in such contempt in Scotland these days?

    22. heedtracker says:

      An then we get to watch with reverence and awe, same liars and morons sitting in BBC and ITV studios getting their moronic lies legitimised and normalised, via tory aunt sally’s like Ligger Andrew Neil and future Sir Gordon Brewer. Another very corrupt but British double whammy.

    23. Brus MacGallah says:

      Have the rich not suffered enough? Millionairess Mariah can hardly afford any clothes.

    24. John H. says:

      They know that many people wont buy their papers, but will still see the headline as they walk past. For them, that’s enough.

      We all know that only slight changes are being made to the Council Tax, but it’s a start. I know someone who is a millionaire who lives in a band D property so won’t be affected by the changes. I also know several pensioners who have higher tax band houses, but now have a reduced income

      The tax should be based on income not property, and I feel that eventually that is what will happen.

    25. Irma says:

      The problem is that many people will look at the article and say ‘oh, aye, right enough’ and not read any further. How can we get people to start to actually absorb what they’re reading and not take it at face value? Same goes for the TV news. Can we stick some ‘clever powder’ in the public water supply, and maybe it’ll make everybody’s eyes open and not just some? It’s going to take something and if we don’t find it, we might get the same bloody result in the next IndyRef. Help!

    26. iclare says:

      Collar and Cuff Headlines used to be standard tabloid stuff.
      I can till get smacked astonished at what the broadheets have been doing last few years.

    27. TD says:

      I think it’s called “spinning”. You take any basic fact and you present it in a way that appears to support the preformed idea that you already had. New Labour in the Blair years developed it to an art form and the suspicion must be that many of the so-called journalists who use these propaganda techniques (because that is what they are) are modelling themselves on that most corrupt era of British politics.

      The critical difference between spinning and journalism is that in spinning you start with the conclusion you want (SNP bad perhaps?) and then you manipulate/distort/bend/make up the facts to support your argument. In journalism you report the facts objectively and honestly and then, in an opinion piece, you might draw a conclusion.

      These people at the Times and the Herald are by no stretch of the imagination practising journalism. They are propagandists and nothing more. They’re not even very good propagandists – it’s too easy to see through them.

    28. Black Joan says:

      Print media are becoming irrelevant and they know it. Their untruths will hasten their demise.

      Numeracy? Nah. Literacy? Nah. Lazy, worthless, UKOK state propaganda? Always, aided by the state broadcaster reporting and publicising “what the papers say”, as if it matters.

      BBC website report re Forth Road Bridge earlier this week demonstrated failure to distinguish between “unforeseeable” and”unforeseen”. The headline emphasised the latter, of course, therefore SNPBAD, in complete contradiction of facts.

      Truth is the first casualty.

    29. David Mills says:

      The “Tabloidifcation” of the press marchs on and basic English now escapes the Times and Herald what next simpler crosswords, massive fonts, simple justification or what?

    30. carjamtic says:

      Recipe for Disaster

      Take any story,chop it up,mix in a huge amount of bullshit,boil it in a pan of pish till changes from white to black then grey,spread thinly on some stale bread,serve it up with a wee sachet of SNPBAD on the side,twisted if possible.

      Nice one Rev. another one for the ever growing,already massive pile of MSM of half truths and lies.

      They wonder why Scotland’s lost it’s appetite for this continuous yoonish reporting,should come with a health warning.

      SNP x 2

    31. Smallaxe says:

      Donald Anderson.

      C/O Tam Shepherd’s Trick Shop. MAGIC;-)

    32. mike cassidy says:

      For your listening pleasure

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bho0d7zslx8

    33. Bob Mack says:

      The use of the word “condemned” is somewhat hysterical in itself. It really has got to the stage of finding bad in good as opposed to the reverse.

      It is indeed a sign of the times when publishers put their own and the Establishment agenda before truth. Why oh why have they compromised themselves professionally?

      There has to be some reward in it for them,either currently or in the future. Selling your soul however demands a high price. They will eventually erode and die.

    34. Flower of Scotland says:

      I don’t buy newspapers anymore. The Herald when it was the Glasgow Herald was a great read. Now it’s just another propaganda paper for the Unionists.

      I don’t watch Sky, BBC, or listen to the BBC in Scotland. I like to have a bit of news in the background and now watch Euronews most of the time with a bit of RT.

      I buy the National on line and visit Wings many times a day. Facebook has a lot of Indy sites with good posts too.

      I don’t know how you stomach the lies and bile that comes from the Unionist media Stu, but thanks for doing it so that I don’t have to!

    35. Kenny says:

      Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another day in Scotland-Bad-Land!

      The country ruled by the SNP BAD Party… Did I mention they are very very very bad?

      Scotland-Bad-Land has vast reserves of oil and natural gas. This is very very very BAD!

      Bad-Scotland has the largest oil reserve in the EU and over 60% of total EU oil production. Mercifuly, the “broad shoulders” of the UKOK are broad enough to take care of this problem for us. We even put up a statue to Donald Dewar for transferring some of the oil fields in Scottish waters to England. God bless the unionist parties — or else more than 1 in 4 children in Bad-Scotland might live in poverty!

      Bad-Scotland is such a bad land with all those bad resources that the electoral system allows you to vote for the SNP-Bad Party TWICE!

      I sometimes think, in such cases, there are not enough “SNP Bad” articles in our national press (like “The Bad-Scotsman”) and there should be SNP-BAD x 2 times their present volume! Maybe the rich donors to the unionist parties could finance an SNP-Bad, Scotland-Bad, Oil-Bad bumper supplement edition to every corporate press newspaper in Bad-Scotland?

    36. Foonurt says:

      Ah bit early, fur fresh Psilocybe (Magic Mushroom). Thae SNP/Independence-hating wans, must bae oan yoan dried yins, reading ‘Alice In Wonderland’.

    37. annie says:

      You would think with journalists being made redundant at a number of newspapers the ones who still have a job would be anxious to do it properly.

    38. I wonder when people like Lyndsay McIntosh decided to become journalists they understood the gutter that they were going to have to `lie` in,

      or is it just a job and f#ck any moral/ethical obligation to report the truth without bias,

      they seem to have learned nothing from the Leveson Inquiry,

      is there any point in reporting her to the Independent Press Standards Organisation ?

    39. Marcia says:

      There should be an annual award ceremony for the most dishonest newspaper headline.

    40. John Walsh says:

      they are liar’s and morons to name just a few things. The Yoons press have a new agenda to personally attack Nicola Sturgeon’s integrity to reinforce to the Yoons that she is not to be trusted.
      They are having no effect on the SNP polling so the next step is a character assassination , like they did on Alex Salmond.
      After a minor tweet spat in which Ruthy trolled ” once in a generation” she said Nicola Lied even posting a link to a YouTube clip. The compliant press will turn this agenda to max in the next month.

    41. sensibledave says:

      Rev

      You wrote: “If reforms take money from the wealthy and make a tax fairer and more progressive… etc.

      Clearly, increasing council tax rates by applying an increased percentage increase – the higher the council tax band is – is indeed, on the face of it, more progressive in the context of how the word is used in the context of taxation these days.

      I would take issue though with the premise that many of those affected by the changes are the “wealthy”. I don’t know about house prices and council tax in Scotland in general. However, I do know that the vast majority of people where I live, live in properties that are in Bands E,F,and G – and they are definitely not “the Wealthy”.

      I suspect that the planned changes are designed to gather the bulk of the increased revenue from “ordinary folk” who live in ordinary houses and earn ordinary salaries.

      If the majority of folk pay more, is that progressive or regressive?

    42. T.roz says:

      “The Union is great”…..if you want a system that benefits selfish greedy pigs.

    43. Awizgonny says:

      Many many aeons ago in my youth, all I wanted was to be a journalist.

      Then I got my wish. To my great fortune I got a job in a small regional paper where the editor was a former sub in the Express.

      I say “my great fortune”, because the editor showed not one scruple in concocting blatant untruths or in hunting down a story even to the personal misery of innocent others. I quickly realised that this career would destroy me long before I got to work on “serious” subjects in “serious” papers, and changed my career plans PDQ.

      I am SO glad I got that arsehole as an editor. Because even if I’d stuck to it, I’d have still ended up ultimately peddling crap, whether the paper be “quality” or not.

      So thank you, Rev Stu – just about every damn day you show me further proof that I’d have been ethically better of as a snake oil salesman than be tainted forever having worked in that cesspool of a job.

    44. Dr Jim says:

      Newspapers know, as we know, folk read the headline maybe a couple of lines more then their minds are full of the shit the newspaper intended to punt in the first place

      Even if they’re found to be guilty of being the blatant liars they are the retraction need only be a “minute” tiny weeny little one line underneath the most unimportant item to anyone in the universe

      This works especially well with a long piece where folk lose the will to live and give up reading the whole thing so the paper can tell the truth at the bottom and all is well for the denial of bias to come

      It’s why supermarkets put shit looking labels on food on the bottom shelf and price it cheaply so they can say they supply it ( all for our benefit )

      This is why newspapers sell well in Yoonland where as I’ve mentioned before the standard of comprehension has fallen short of their Simian cousins (bit of unpleasant sarcasm there, but it’s OK the Yoons won’t understand it, Whoops)

      Job done

    45. The Council tax has always been an unfair and regressive
      and I doubt if there is any solution which would resolve this problem.

      While the low paid and pensioners pay proportionately more of their income in tax than the rich the Scottish government’s reform at least helps to alleviate some of the unfairness.

      As for Labour it has not produced any credible solution to either replacing or making the council fairer.

    46. Dr Jim says:

      He’s back, the idiot who admits he doesn’t know about things in Scotland but feels he has the right to Fukcing critisise

      Critisise your own Fukcing country for a wee change
      Take issue with your own shit
      Suspect your own politicians
      Write to a Canadian website and have a go at them
      Just because we use the same language doesn’t mean we’re the same or it’s any of your business

      Think of Scotland as Chinese, you wouldn’t do it then
      Jeez! you probably would

    47. Rod Robertson says:

      Both

    48. Foonurt says:

      Twaw arrestit fur fighting oan the road wae hammurrs, in Andersonstown, Belfast, oan Monday evening (14th March).

      Folk wae ah fine, fancy hoose, wae ah guid-peiyin joab, kin shairlae fin anithurr twaw tae five hunnurr quid fur Cooncull Tax. If naw, yurr capitalist-system siz git oot the weiy, tae wan thit kin peiy taks yurr place.

      Iz thoan coancept ah huvin anuff tae git by, oot yoan windae noo.

      Fuck me, awe angulls’s poked eez heid oot agane.

    49. sensibledave says:

      Dr Jim 11.24

      Wow! … A little sensitive this morning doc!

      A) I did not criticise anyone – least of all the Scottish Government

      B) I thought I asked an interesting question.

      C) I think Council Tax is a silly tax that only exists because it always has (apart from a brief period that we shall overlook). Paying tax on the basis of the size of your house is very imprecise in its overall aims. The size/location of ones house is not a measure of how “wealthy” someone is, how much cash they have, how much they earn, their ability to pay, how many tax payers live in the house or many council services the occupants of a particular house may use. Do you disagree?

      Not wishing to be inflammatory in any way, genuinely, I ask the question again, on behalf of everyone (in Scotland and England), if a government/council raises increased revenues through increased Council Tax – and the majority of the increase revenue total is collected from ordinary folk (you know what I mean by “ordinary”), then in the context of how we use the terms, is that progressive or regressive taxation?

    50. heedtracker says:

      I suspect that the planned changes are designed to gather the bulk of the increased revenue from “ordinary folk” who live in ordinary houses and earn ordinary salaries.

      Sensibledave what’s an ordinary salary and ordinary house in teamGB? A crappy 2 up 2 down in any west London burb goes for a million quid easy.

      If you can afford a large house in an expensive area,

      1. You can afford it, therefore you’re wealthy.

      or

      2, You cant afford it but you’re being subsidised by regressive council taxation.

      Want it both ways? vote Toryboy, red and blue:D

    51. Legerwood says:

      The Herald story actually takes it a bit further by saying that Councils with a large proportion of higher band houses will collect more in tax and this will benefit the wealthy because those Councils will have more to spend on Education – for the offspring of those wealthy people! Therefore according to Herald logic taxing the wealthy more benefits the wealthy.

    52. Luigi says:

      The number of people taken in by this guff shrinks by the day. However, the problem, as some posters have already alluded to, is the headline. But not the obvious one….less people are bothering with these also, as they pass the newsagents.

      However, the big ugly “but” in this propaganda exercise is the BBC. A big fake headline like this serves to provide the British propaganda unit a perfect excuse to focus on the negative (SNP BAD) aspect all day. When the BBC are challeneged, the defence always seems to be that it’s a big news story and so they had to cover it (meaning support it without challenge).

      Break the print headline-BBC story link and the union is fatally wounded. Not easy, but it needs to be done somehow.

    53. CmonIndy says:

      Complaint has gone in to ipso on both publications. There is a complaint procedure so you should include names and dates of publication and that the breach of the Editors Code is under Clause 1 – Accuracy. Alternatively they have an online complaint form you can complete.

    54. call me dave says:

      If your a headline scanner you read:

      ‘Scottish unemployment total rises by 16,000’

      But if you read more details in the article it paints a much more positive outlook so why does our Scottish Auntie do it?

      Oh Aye!…. I forgot.

      https://archive.is/0arx3

    55. Jack Murphy says:

      OT slightly—–it’s only a couple of nights ago Labour/Blair’s SpinDoctor Alistair Campbell was up here on the telly telling the interviewer unchallenged, about Scottish Labour having a “wonderful” new Leader!
      Ma Gran choked on her Horlicks!! 🙁
      He was primarily speaking about mental health but he strayed onto other matters Scottish.

      12MD TODAY:–Prime Minister’s Questions
      followed by Osborne’s Spring Budget Statement at 12:30pm.
      Available to view on Parliament TV LIVE:–

      http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/1e13618a-d08e-4423-ab0f-0259a5cd28ad

    56. galamcennalath says:

      Peter McCulloch says:

      “The Council tax has always been an unfair and regressive and I doubt if there is any solution which would resolve this problem”

      Probably no easy solution anyway.

      For me, the issue of financing local services is the logical disconnect between property and the big budget areas.

      Roads, environmental, housing, culture – seems perfectly logical to finance these based on property value.

      However almost two thirds of council budgets go on education and social work. These focus in people not property. They should be financed through income tax.

      The bold solution would be to integrate healthcare and social work (as I think they have done in NI). Then this and education should be centrally funded from income tax. Then finance the remaining property related services from, property value.

    57. TD says:

      Sensible

      I suspect that the planned changes are designed to gather the bulk of the increased revenue from “ordinary folk” who live in ordinary houses and earn ordinary salaries.

      If you say you suspect this, then I believe you. But your suspicion is ill-founded. Most people in Scotland (75% of households) live in band A to D homes so will be unaffected. There is then a modest increase (£105 per annum) for those in band E rising in stages to £500 for the most valuable properties. So the top 25% by value of households pay a bit more on a progressive scale and 75% pay no more. To my way of looking at things that is progressive and fair.

      Your final question “If the majority of folk pay more, is that progressive or regressive?” is therefore based on a false premise, but progression or regression is not a matter of whether a majority pay more. It is a matter of whether those most able to pay do in fact pay more and those unable to pay are protected. So there could for example be an increase in income tax across the board which would mean that “most folks” would pay more, but it would still be progressive if the wealthiest paid the most.

      There is no doubt that the changes to council tax proposed by the SNP government are a move towards a more progressive tax, even although the council tax is, in my opinion, conceptually flawed as a form of taxation.

    58. sensibledave says:

      Heedy 11.48

      Ah Heedy … just the degree of thought and intellect I thought you might bring.

      So Heedy, there are indeed, many wealthy people that live in England – just as there are in Scotland. Whilst, for the sake of your partisan politics, you may wish to live your life in the certain knowledge that everyone in England is off playing croquette and having cream teas at the Savoy – you may be shocked to learn that that is not the case.

      By definition, the majority of people in England are “ordinary folk” – just like in Scotland. You appear to not have asked yourself the question of how, say, a young couple in England, maybe a Teacher and a Policeman, can pay twice as much for a property as they might where you live?

      Its because, Heedy, they pay a much bigger proportion of their salaries on their mortgage than many in Scotland. They have far less disposable income than their counterparts in Scotland – even though they live in a similar size property in an equivalent location and do similar jobs to their Scottish Counterparts. They have less Heedy, less! Of course, because, over time, they have spent more on buying a property – then they end up with a property that is of higher value!

      Are you still with me Heedy?

      Now I know this is all a bit difficult for you Heedy, and it actually requires you to think (which I know is hard for you) but every time you write, you make yourself look more of an idiot.

    59. sensibledave says:

      TD 12.01

      …. excellent response TD!

      I agree.

    60. HaggisHunter says:

      The Mrs switches on the news at 10, that’s my cue for heading to bed. Nae use in getting the blood pressure up before bed time.

      You can almost guarantee that when the BBC / STV talk about Foreign policy and Scotland then they are telling lies

    61. Macart says:

      Ayup, both!

      Politics as it is practiced… etc. This is how a narrative is created and embedded.

      Spookily the media wonder why we frankly don’t give a shit about their fortunes anymore. Spooky, I know. 😮

    62. Stravaiger says:

      Freedom is Slavery! Ignorance is Strength!

    63. Nana says:

      O/T

      According to Guido Goldman Sachs has taken control of the budget

      http://archive.is/7qXBX

    64. Cuilean says:

      Check out http://ponsonbypost.com/

      post this week “BBC Scotland, Question Time & Kaye Adams’.

      There is a quite extraordinaory radio sequence thereon of a rant by Adams at our First Minister, before the General Election last year.

      I had not heard it before.

      It is so bad, words literally fail me. I knew Adams was biased I did not know just what depths she will go to to ‘big up’ Labour at the expense of the SNP. It was even worse than last week’s Question Time.

      If we all did not know how deadly the BBC game is, one would almost think it was a comical sketch of an interview from ‘The Thick of It’ or ‘Yes Minister’.

      We ceratinly do live in a one party state but it is not the SNP Party!

      A must read.

    65. G H Graham says:

      Council Tax across all bands has been frozen since 2007. Over that same period, according to the Bank of England, inflation has on average, been around 2.8% per annum.

      Thus, if the tax had been raised at a compounded rate matching inflation, a household paying for example £1,800 in 2007 would in 2015 be paying 24.7% more (£445) raising the total annual council tax bill to £2,245.

      I picked that number because it’s the amount I would have paid for living in my band E property in Fife; a one bedroom cottage with no garden & no garage in a medieval village; not a property one would associate with the wealthy.

      Nevertheless, the freeze has saved me £445 over an 8 year period. Now though, the SNP are proposing that I pay an additional £105 EVERY year. So over the next eight years, ignoring any further increases due to inflation, I will pay an additional £840, more than making up for the freeze during the previous eight years.

      You won’t be surprised then to learn that I’m unhappy that I fall into a category that is considered to be one in which wealthy people live.

      While I am but one example, I think it illustrates perfectly how distorted the current local taxation system is & that it is indeed long overdue for a complete overhaul.

      My preference would be to replace it with a local income tax, just like many US states levy; taxing people based upon their ability to pay, not some nonsensical property valuation system which is obviously broken.

    66. TD says:

      Sensible

      So if you agree, why did you make such a stupid point and ask such a stupid question in the first place?

    67. Dr Jim says:

      Once again the troll doesn’t read his own posts
      and once again he assumes the responsibility of speaking for Nations and indeed asking questions on behalf of those Nations

      The arrogance of the interfering BritYoon who thinks they have a divine right to question what’s none of their business

      They never seem to learn

    68. ArtyHetty says:

      These people print lies to appeal to a certain section of the reading public, so it works nicely for them.

      My very well off unionist friends, griped that the Scotgov should put up council tax, ‘we would be happy to pay more’, they said.

      Just opened the council tax bill for this coming year, and our water and sewerage costs have been reduced by quite a bit, or is that just us?

      O/T
      My cousin from Gateshead, was staying in Northumberland past couple of days. In a text I played a wee joke, saying just as well you stayed south of the border, as there are riots here with the nats beating up the britnats. (obvious joke right). To my utter amazement they thought it was true!
      So you can persuade people to believe anything when it comes to Scotland!

    69. heedtracker says:

      sensibledave says:
      16 March, 2016 at 12:05 pm
      Heedy 11.48

      You’re such a big drip sensible, a great big tory drip. Yes people choose to buy very expensive housing in very expensive areas that do cost a lot more in mortgage expenditure BUT sensibledave you dreary little tory, PROGRESSIVE taxation can and does change this insane UKOK house price structure, in much the same way progressive taxation affects the demand and supply in many other markets.

      Council taxation is a direct subsidy to those that either do not need it, or its direct subsidy and destabilisation of the housing market, one of many in this farce union sensible.

      “My mortgage makes me worse off! Pay me to buy a even bigger one, sucka taxpayer” rings out across toryboy teamGB, what believes above all else, in the free market.

    70. Proud Cybernat says:

      Would comment more fully, Rev, but I just can’t get past Mariah Carey.

    71. Stoker says:

      I see the BUM rags as nothing more than supersized (holy-) flyers!

      SNP x 2

    72. ArtyHetty says:

      Meant to say in my last comment, my cous and her partner get their ‘news’ from the ebc mostly. Daily, into their living room, piped lies. What a win win for the rich and powerful.

    73. sensibledave says:

      Heedy again

      To continue your education Heedy, I have done some research for you. The town of Thame is not far away from me. It is a typical, nondescript market town. It is equidistant from Oxford, Aylesbury and High Wycombe (about 10 miles in each direction). It is a “normal” town made up of a “normal” mix of “normal” folk doing “normal” jobs at “normal” salaries.

      I did a quick search on Rightmove for properties within 3 miles of the town. I put an upper limit of £200,000 on the search (you can do this yourself). Just two properties meet that criteria.

      One is a two bedroom terraced, in need of total refurbishment. Price £195,000. The only other property is an ex Council House, 2 bedroom Maisonette at £175,000 for the remaining 61 year Leasehold.

      Now think Heedy, If a young couple, say a Teacher and a Policeman, want to buy their first home, how big a mortgage will they need. How does that compare to the Teacher and Policeman looking for a similar type of property in a similar type location in your neck of the woods? Given that the Teacher and Policeman will earn pretty much the same down here as up there, how do they “afford” it Heedy?

      They have no option, they spend far more of their taxed income on their home than their equivalent counterparts in Scotland. As a result, they have less to spend on other things Heedy, they have less cash than their Scottish counterparts Heedy! They are not “wealthier” Heedy. They will probably end up with more assets at the end Heedy – but they have spent far more to get them.

      So I am not trying to make any point Heedy, other than to try and give you information that might help you in understanding things a little more. Vain hope.

    74. heedtracker says:

      They have less Heedy, less! Of course, because, over time, they have spent more on buying a property – then they end up with a property that is of higher value!

      Maybe I can simplifyerise this for you sensibledave.

      If council taxation does become progressive, buyers may well no longer be able to afford current house prices. Progressive taxation will mean that fall in demand results in falling prices, perhaps even affordable sensible.

      Subsequently, buyers will have smaller mortgages and they will have more sensibledave, more! Spending it on stuff in an economy what makes stuff, instead of building ever higher UKOK debt mountains. City spivery might not appreciate it all but its never going to happen anyway, not in England land anyway.

      But arguing this with a house price worshipping teamGBist toryboy in the super heated south east of England land, is a waste of internet.

    75. Dr Jim says:

      Britnat Yoon State Broadcaster Reporting

      Unemployment in Scotland is UP by X percentage points compared to England which is X percentage points lower (Scotland is shit)

      X thousands of people are Unemployed in Scotland compared to England per head of population( Scotland is shit)

      employment in Scotland is up (end of sentence really quietly)

      Result: Scotland is shit, job done

      Something else to think about:

      The SNP never invented dressing up kids in uniforms with sashes and banners proclaiming death to others that was Yoon OO
      The SNP never invented the Boys Brigade (which is OK now) but originally you couldn’t get a game of football in unless you marched on Sundays and swore Queenlie allegiance (I was in it until I learned better)
      The SNP never invented the Boy Scouts (again who are OK now) but the least said about that one

      Yoon Christian Organisations all who still hand out awards and badges for Queenlie allegiance (I stress they’re OK now)

      These are the people who slander and accuse the SNP for the very thing that they are themselves guilty of doing

      The ultimate deflection?

    76. Tam Jardine says:

      One thing seems crystal clear to me- nothing the SNP can do with the council tax would be right as far as the media ate concerned. And if they do nothing- well that isn’t right either.

      It seems clear to me that more money needs raised by councils and increasing the bands as per the above graph is the only short term progressive thing to do.

      Those voices in the press criticise without putting forward an alternative are not worth listening to.

      There comes a point in an argument where you need to just accept that nothing you can say or do will be acceptable and just carry on with your intentions regardless.

      You can’t debate with someone dug in as deep as the media operating in Scotland.

      Dave seems to agree the Scottish Government have done the right thing so as far as I’m concerned the matter is put neatly bed.

    77. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      @Cuilean,

      Yes – I listened to that bonkers Kay(e) radio clip on GAP Post site. Never heard it before.

      Just nuts – How dare the SNP stand in a democratic election in Scotland against the Labour party?

      An outrage – frankly.

    78. galamcennalath says:

      HaggisHunter says:

      “You can almost guarantee that when the BBC / STV talk about Foreign policy and Scotland then they are telling lies”

      Once identified as a liar, nothing is ever the same again. It’s as true for organisations as it is for individuals.

      Up to that point you take what you hear at face value. After realising they lie, you then take everything said as suspect even when some might be true.

      A proven liar is an unreliable source for ever more. It’s a one way switch. Once flicked it can never be reset.

      I didn’t used to feel that way about the BBC. Now, I trust nothing they say on any subject.

    79. sensibledave says:

      TD 12:19 pm

      You wrote “So if you agree, why did you make such a stupid point and ask such a stupid question in the first place?”

      As you identified in your comment, I had surmised data that you, factually, refuted. I know it is hard for many to comprehend this, but if I discover I have made an error, or wrong assumption, I alter my conclusions accordingly. Wouldn’t you?

      With respect to my question and my points about Council tax, I still hold the view that it is a stupid, mis-guided tax that takes no account of ability to pay and affordability.

      Given you agree with that logic, and that Council Tax is not based upon ones ability to pay – is it not therefore a regressive tax – by definition?

    80. heedtracker says:

      sensibledave says:
      16 March, 2016 at 12:57 pm
      TD 12:19 pm

      What a surprise, toryboy ducks away from Dummies Guide to Economics, Chapter 1, how taxation controls markets.

      Its this ridiculous rule Britannia is the greatest freemarket torboy world bullshit that really stinks sensibledave. But you know that.

    81. bjsalba says:

      While we are on the subject of misrepresentation by the MSM why don’t we consider the Daily Record headline article today as against the actual report?

      http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Crime-Justice/crime-and-justice-survey

    82. sensibledave says:

      heedtracker 12:43 pm

      Irrelevant claptrap Heedy!

      We were discussing whether a young couple, a Teacher and a Policeman, are “wealthy” because they spend twice as much of their salaries on a mortgage – perhaps than their counterparts in Scotland.

      You believe they are “wealthier” than their Scottish counterparts because they pay a bigger mortgage! – which, even for you, is pretty stupid.

      May I also refer you to G H Graham’s comments at 12.18 above Heedy. He/she makes my point.

      They wrote “…. it’s the amount I would have paid for living in my band E property in Fife; a one bedroom cottage with no garden & no garage in a medieval village; not a property one would associate with the wealthy.”

      They went on to write: “You won’t be surprised then to learn that I’m unhappy that I fall into a category that is considered to be one in which wealthy people live.

      Do you see now Heedy?

      GH Graham, insofar as the Council Tax changes are concerned, is considered to be one of the “wealthy” by many. He/she disagrees with that description for the reasons he stated – and could therefore be forgiven for seeing the changes as regressive couldn’t he/she?

    83. heedtracker says:

      sensibledave says:
      16 March, 2016 at 1:28 pm
      heedtracker 12:43 pm

      Irrelevant claptrap Heedy!

      We were discussing whether a young couple, a Teacher and a Policeman, are “wealthy” because they spend twice as much of their salaries on a mortgage – perhaps than their counterparts in Scotland.

      Just more UKOK toryboy deflection. Its pathetic really. But its reality in teamGB.

      Once again sensible, you ridiculous toryboy, aren’t you all:D

      Government has several “levers” with which can control an economy. UKOK Toryboy world, red and blue, created the super sonic heated south east of teamGB housing market and that’s that.

      Progressive council taxation, responsible lending, NOT guaranteed by sucka taxpayer, social housing, town planning, UK wide infrastructure spends NOT all focused on the south east, all of totally trashed for London and the south, by Snatcher Thatherites, then Major, then Crash Gordon Brown, now the great economic saviour of the UKOK economy, Gideon Osborne.

      Listening to clowns like you bleat on about how you suddenly really weally care about cops not being able to afford a decent house in England land is nauseating. But its nice that it still makes the gorge rise sensible.

    84. Breastplate says:

      @sensibledave, I asked you a question on Monday. You didn’t answer it, you decided to body swerve it.
      Should Scotland be an independent country?
      Are you up for giving us all the benefit of your opinion because you seem to be full of opinions on all matters Scottish?
      Please, I’m genuinely interested.

    85. sensibledave says:

      heedtracker

      Yours are the politics of hate Heedy. You are a disgrace sir.

      Your ability to debate or argue is based entirely on creating “straw man” propositions (I don’t expect you to understand that Heedy, look it up) that bear no resemblance to any actuality.

      You are just a fool – and a rabid one at that.

    86. heedtracker says:

      You are just a fool – and a rabid one at that.

      Asking you anything at all is foolish sensible. And above all else, you’ve won! Toryboy world is the UKOK world Scotland voted NO to stay in.

      But at the very least sensible, try to keep in mind that a lot of people are not Daily Heil style tories like you. We maybe BBC grown mushrooms, kept in the dark and fed UKOK red and blue tory bullshit but its certainly changing up here in your Scotland region, not fast enough but we will shake off UKOK toryboy world one day.

    87. mike cassidy says:

      Re press

      black kettle and pot rant from Alistair Campbell

      http://www.alastaircampbell.org/blog/2016/03/12/time-to-call-out-the-union-of-media-barons-lie-machines-and-their-anti-democratic-role-in-the-eu-referendum/

      Here’s his opening volley.

      Don’t all empathise at once!

      I am 58 years old, have worked in and around the media most of my adult life, on both sides of the press/politics fence; I have been both hunter and hunted, and know the game inside out. I thought I was no longer remotely shockable by anything that our wretched right-wing press could do.

      But the coverage of the EU referendum so far, even by their standards of bias, deceit, misrepresentation, and lying, is taking them to fresh depths of dishonesty. In so many ways, it is as though Leveson never happened. Accuracy? Do me a favour; we have papers to sell, agendas to drive, scores to settle, personal interests to defend.

      David Cameron has to take some responsibility for this. For his own political reasons – mainly the desire to see the papers hit Labour harder than they hit him in the 2010 and 2015 elections – he was dragged kicking and screaming into Leveson, and has failed to follow through on the Inquiry’s eminently sensible proposals for self-regulation, demonized and distorted as a vicious assault on press freedom by the same Union of right-wing, super-rich, partly foreign, largely tax-avoiding media barons driving the demonizing, distorting coverage of Europe now

    88. TD says:

      Sensible

      You are wriggling on a hook. The Rev said:

      “If reforms take money from the wealthy and make a tax fairer and more progressive – even if it’s only a little bit – then it’s OBVIOUSLY idiotic to claim they’ve done the exact opposite.”

      Nobody said council tax was a good tax or that it was fair. The point is that if the reforms move it in the direction of being progressive and make it more fair then that is a good thing. And the main point of the article was the misrepresentation of the facts by the media – in this case the Times and the Herald.

      As usual, your intervention was based on false assumptions and an absence of facts which in this case are readily available on the Scottish Government’s website.

    89. sensibledave says:

      Breastplate at 2:00 pm

      You wrote “I asked you a question on Monday. You didn’t answer it, you decided to body swerve it.
      Should Scotland be an independent country?
      Are you up for giving us all the benefit of your opinion because you seem to be full of opinions on all matters Scottish?
      Please, I’m genuinely interested.”

      …. I know you are genuinely interested, I am an interesting person.

      I answered your question directly. I said it is nothing to do with me (or something long those lines).

      The would “Should” makes the question impossible for me to answer. Genuinely though, Scotland “should” be Independent – if the majority of voters in Scotland vote, in a referendum, for that outcome.

      This is a theme we keep coming back to. The assumption that many make here is that “the English” want to keep the Union together. Whilst it was certainly evident that much of the establishment argued the Better Together cause, there was absolutely no “popular movement” that engaged “the English” in any way, either way – on the whole we were ambivalent.

      At the heart of that position, in my view, is a simple desire to let people have they want in these regards. To be honest, the problem areas are the other way round – The Falklands, Gibralta, even Northern Ireland I guess. Life would certainly be simpler if the majority of people in those regions didn’t want UK governance!

    90. orri says:

      Today’s budget will no doubt introduce more austerity to deal with the UK’s deficit. The one that they admit is half that Scotland has. We’re talking about a government that has the bare faced cheek to crow over the fact that shorn of the one resource that until the most recent past meant we were operating at a lower deficit than average has exposed just how badly we are doing as part of the UK. We’re talking about media who try to sell the same lie. Why be surprised when they can’t tell the truth about anything else.

      The truth is that we really aren’t set up for truly local income tax nor would it work given how small each individual council is. The truly wealthy would find it easy to either simply move or register at a holiday home. The best in that circumstance might be outright replacement of local property based taxes. No matter how it’s done at some point central government might have to step in.

      Realistically there’s no one method of raising revenue that is ideal by itself. Adjusting Council Tax bands or multipliers is a step towards at least making that fairer. Extending the availability of discounts might also help. It has the advantage that with councils now being able to raise or lower their rate of restoring accountability.

    91. Breastplate says:

      No, sensibledave, you gave me an answer why you shouldn’t answer the question. You did not answer the question.
      Now you are saying you have no opinion on the wether Scotland should be independent.
      That may be stretching credibility to the limits as I believe you do have an opinion on it and a strong one to boot. I believe that opinion colours much of what you say on here.
      Notice that I’m not outing your opinion not because I may be wrong about it but because I don’t have to.
      I think everyone here knows exactly what your opinion is on Scottish independence including you.
      I believe you are being disingenuous.

    92. sensibledave says:

      TD 2.27

      … I never commented on the article or the media attack on the SG. I was interested on the issue of whether the changes were, indeed, progressive, in the accepted sense of the word.

      I guessed that “the majority” of people people live in houses that fall in bands that would experience increases – you corrected me, and I accepted your correction.

      However, as GH Graham above points out, he will get an increase on his Band E home – but he absolutely does not accept that he is wealthy.

      So, from GH Graham’s point of view, he is suffering an increase in tax that is not warranted, in his view, by his circumstances.

      His taxes are increasing for reasons other than his ability to pay – which make the policy, for him, regressive.

      Council Tax is rubbish. We should change it. What about a tax based upon the number of adults inhabiting a single dwelling? No Wait …. I think that may have been tried!

      Local income tax it is then …

    93. MorvenM says:

      G H Graham

      It might be worth checking to see if your cottage is in the right Council Tax band. Band E seems a bit excessive. Martin Lewis has good advice about it here:

      http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/council-tax-bands-change

      He also has advice for those of you who haven’t cancelled your BBC tax yet 🙂

      http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/tv-licence

    94. heedtracker says:

      At the heart of that position, in my view, is a simple desire to let people have they want in these regards. To be honest, the problem areas are the other way round – The Falklands, Gibralta, even Northern Ireland I guess. Life would certainly be simpler if the majority of people in those regions didn’t want UK governance!

      More mince. Scotland voted for The Vow, devo-max and federal UK. All of the Better Together fraud squad promised this, when they thought they were losing.

      Now sensible, no change. no actual tangible changes since 18 the Sept 2014, the day England had no control of Scotland, technically. We still had your ambivalent BBC led media vote NO or else fury to contend with. Its still UK governance.

      Also sensible, wish you stop saying

      there was absolutely no “popular movement” that engaged “the English” in any way, either way – on the whole we were ambivalent.

      That is one of your more profound lies on here sensible. Unless you can show at least some factual evidence of England’s ambivalence, not same old UKOK tubthumping but not really interest gibber jabber?

      Its disgraceful really but you’re merely one more pathetic Britnat con artist. Leave it to the pros sensibledave, or at least try a different rule Britannia forever and ever in your Scotland region, style of grot.

    95. Foonurt says:

      Hoose price, wae asset. Thoan’s whaur, yer problem sterts. No fur steiyin in, bit an asset. Asset fur whit?

      Wae ken whaur hoose prices, wae thurr mortgages, tain us eicht-year back.

      Peiy whit yurr hoose/asset’s ‘worth’, oan fantasy price-lists/Cooncull Tax banding. Whit kin bae wrang wae that?

    96. Ruby says:

      sensibledave says:
      16 March, 2016 at 3:06 pm

      TD 2.27

      … I never commented on the article or the media attack on the SG. I was interested on the issue of whether the changes were, indeed, progressive, in the accepted sense of the word.

      Ruby replies

      Hey English Troll!

      Why are you interested?
      That is the question.

    97. sensibledave says:

      Breastplate 2.47

      You can check back over the last couple of years on here. I have maintained the stance, throughout, that I am ambivalent – and, based upon the people I know, and anecdotal stories from other commentators on here, so are the majority of other English voters.

      It is a basic mistake of the loonie fringe on here that if a person doesn’t vote SNP (and I can’t) then they must be a UKOK Unionist. Wrong!

      Maybe its the “your with us – or against us” misnomer.

      Why would I worry if the majority of voters in Scotland wanted Scotland to be Independent country? What difference would it make to me? More importantly, why would I want to be part of some sort of oppression of a majority of Scots who want Independence?

      All of the problems are the other way round. Because there is such a large, organised, passionate and committed minority – it is the unfair, unwarranted and misguided accusations of colonialism and Unionism that come from that quarter that cause far more trouble.

      There was a referendum, the Scots made their decision – but somehow I am your problem! Very weird!

      Why don’t you ask The Rev to adjudicate on this point. As I understand it, he lives and works in Bath. When he meets people that are not aware of his affiliations and interest in the subject of Scottish Independence – how often, if ever, does the subject arise? I would be surprised if it ever does. It is just not an issue for most.

      I don’t know whether that surprises or makes you despair. But I think that it is the way it is.

      As far as Heedy is concerned, and you seem to suspect, I am the enemy. I rather suspect that your real enemy is the likes of Heedy. Why would any sane person want to be in a club that had Heedy as a member?!

      Any shaky No voter that reads Heedy’s thoughts on life and what he thinks of anyone that isn’t currently an SNP voter in the UK – would probably vote to stay part of the Union – rather than have the likes of Heedy having input on how their lives are governed.

    98. sensibledave says:

      Ruby 3.34

      Hey Rubes – Scottish Numptie!

      Why dont you think of a different question – rather than keep repeating the same one?

    99. Ken500 says:

      The Editors are disgrace. A higher tax is being introoduced on higher band households, with exemption for those who qualify. To fund education. It’s a pity Scottish taxpayer have to pay for Trident/illegal wars and redundant weaponry, Policies which the majority did not vote – £1Billion.

      The Scottish Gov can’t put a tax on ‘loss leading’ drink, saving £1Billion.

      Scotland is paying because of tax evasion and banking fraud. £3Billion?. Scotland has to pay debt repayments on money not borrowed or spent in Scotland – £4Billion = £9Billion a year. Money which could be better spent.

      Westminister – OsbourneTories a majority of people in Scotland did not vote for them. They are taxing the Scottish Oil sector 60% tax when the price has fallen 75%. Losing thousands of jobs in Scotland. Losing Scotland £4Billion+ a year since 2011 = £20Billiom+

      The Editors could write a report about that or are they on redial to Cameron, recycling the propaganda.

    100. Ruby says:

      Do you think the fact that “regressive” is in inverted commas lets her off the hook?

      I don’t particularly care what Lindsay McIntosh writes in The Times because like the vast majority of Scottish journalist I have no respect for her.

      Sure it’s pretty immoral of her to con people but that’s a problem for the people who are being conned.

      I suspect all the lies about Council tax, the once in a lifetime referendum nonsense and the never ending stories about Gers etc etc is all a ploy to ensure people don’t focus on the £200million cuts to Scottish budget.

      Irn-bru in trouble due to sugar tax.

      This time around it’s Irn-bru next time it will be Tunnock Teacakes. These we nasty turd like British snacks are loaded with sugar and so is Mackies Ice Cream.

    101. G H Graham says:

      Morven offers good advice; I shall indeed request a re-evaluation from the Fife Assessor’s office.

      Indeed if anyone else thinks the banding of their property is wrong, ask for a re-evaluation by contacting your own council’s assessor via the Scottish Assessor’s Association website here …

      http://www.saa.gov.uk/

      For those whose properties which will be hit by the progressive “Band E Wealth Tax”, a phone call & some short form filling might well save one lot of money.

    102. Ruby says:

      If the English Troll can’t tell us why he posts here then perhaps someone else could help him out?

      Why does ET post here?

      What is it ET is trying to achieve?

    103. sensibledave says:

      Heedy 3.16

      You wrote: “there was absolutely no “popular movement” that engaged “the English” in any way, either way – on the whole we were ambivalent.

      That is one of your more profound lies on here sensible.”

      I can’t prove a negative Heedy. There was no popular movement amongst the ENglish with respect to the Scottish Referendum. If you believe there was – point it out!

      I am not talking about “Westminster” or “better together” – they were political movements by the Establishment – not anything that had membership or recognisable support from the English Electorate (are you sure you know what a “popular movement is Heedy?).

    104. Ruby says:

      ET is just posting the same shit that he posted on the ‘Love Bombs’ article!

      C’mon guys help me out here why is ET posting on Wings. What is he trying to achieve?

    105. heedtracker says:

      Ruby says:
      16 March, 2016 at 3:59 pm
      If the English Troll can’t tell us why he posts here then perhaps someone else could help him out?

      Why does ET post here?

      Well, y’see Ruby, like all English people, sensibledave is “ambivalent” about Scotland, Scottish independence, Scottish democracy. Its why he’s on here, displaying his ambivalence n shit.

      If you have the temerity to not agree, not vote UKOK, not, well you know the type. UKOK “ambivalence” in action, and that all to familiar British thuggery. Although why, this goon in particular, thinks he can intimidate away YES voters online, is anyone guess.

      sensibledave says:
      16 March, 2016 at 2:10 pm
      heedtracker

      Yours are the politics of hate Heedy. You are a disgrace sir.

      Your ability to debate or argue is based entirely on creating “straw man” propositions (I don’t expect you to understand that Heedy, look it up) that bear no resemblance to any actuality.

      You are just a fool – and a rabid one at that.

    106. Breastplate says:

      @sensibledave, holding an opinion and expressing it are two completely different things but you know that already.
      I’m guessing you can’t help being disingenuous.

    107. Iain More says:

      Aye the Brit Nats are liars and morons, summed it up perfectly. But then Osborne’s Budget will inflate the already astronomical profits of BP and Shell but no doubt the Brit Nats would call that progressive? How long before there is another mad axe attack by the Oil Companies on their presently employed staff?

    108. Andrew Mclean says:

      Guys,
      Do you remember in Bravehart, there was a scene where Edward king of England was speaking to his son, when his sons boyfriend piped up and proposed to tell Edward what to do, Old long shanks , not used to pish obviously said who is this who dares tell me what to do before launching him out the first window!

      Sensibly this just popped into my head?

      Anyhow I am reading Thomas Paine’s works, one in particular concerning how the English were conquered by the French Normans, A French bastard son of a prostitute who defeated the English abolished their laws and sovereignty and took himself as their king and make them subject to his every whim as his vassals , so his sons could rule over them in perpetuity.

      So ever Englishman since is only allowed to remain in their own country if they give unquestioning loyalty and homage and then they receive the right to occupy the conquerors land and be protected by him, sort of like a slave.

      But I am ambivalent to the historic standing of an Englishman.

      Just saying, like!

    109. Ruby says:

      Do you not think ET would be more at home on ‘The Scotsman’ along with all the other ETs?

      Or perhaps ‘The Herald’ there are a fair number of ETs posting there.

      Too bad about ‘Irn Bru’ If only Jim Murphy had chosen a different crate & Kezia had offered her boss a healthy alternative.

    110. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      The offending Herald article’s headline has changed in the online version: SNP’s council tax system is regressive, confirm experts, which puts it in the same miserable “half-truth” category as that of the Times.

      Perhaps somebody already complained, since the original clearly violates the IPSO Editor’s Code prohibiting “headlines not supported by the text”.

    111. heedtracker says:

      Ruby says:
      16 March, 2016 at 4:24 pm
      Do you not think ET would be more at home on ‘The Scotsman’ along with all the other ETs?

      Sensible’s probably much like the types of toryboys that were bussed up to their Scotland region in that last two hectic weeks of the referendum.

      He/she probably is in the south east, given that he thinks Scots YESers on here should be focused entirely on the south east of England land.

      Otherwise you pays your broadband, you make your “ambivalence” known on to the vile separatists, of your Scotland region, ambivalently.

    112. sensibledave says:

      Ruby 4.05

      …. Appealing for help now SN?

      Is it simply that I don’t write “hear, hear” or “me too” in response to every article or comment SN? Is it that you don’t ever meet someone with a different view to you SN?

      This thread is about taxation and whether a tax is progressive or regressive. What is clear from some of the comments above is that the answer probably lies with people that pay the increased tax.

      A band E Council tax payer above, points out that they are not wealthy and do not like the thought that people think they are.

      From their perspective, the increased Council tax is regressive.

      Have you learned anything SN? Have you thought things through now? Was GH Graham wrong and disloyal for being “off message”? Are your personal politics so fragile that that you can’t handle relatively simple counter arguments?

      BTW, don’t ask for Heedy’s help or you might get it – and the last thing you need is Heedy on your side – he is bonkers.

      I actually think he isn’t really a person. I think he is some sort of failed, andriod, hybrid prototype that is supposed to be able to read text and then respond – but he is broken. In actuality, his programming just picks out the odd word from a text and then sends an automatic diatribe to whatever word he read, or mis read, and completely misses the point.

      He is bit like the “tin foil hat” “end of the world is nigh” crowd. Its all a conspiracy you know.

      Apparently, unbeknown to all the news services, press and social media sites, in the build up to the Scottish referendum, Heedy “knows” that “the English” were marching in the Streets, rioting, generating petitions, joining campaigns, etc – to express their overwhelming desire to hang on to Scotland at all costs and to to do anything to keep it that way and oppress the democratic will of the majority of Scots.

      Er, but, to my knowledge, there was, ….. nothing!

      Come the day, and the result, we were very “interested” – because of the potential historical significance – but little more than that. Ask The Rev what his observations were – he was probably in a good position to judge.

    113. North chiel says:

      Lindsay Macintosh and the late Angus Macleod , both “Times” correspondents , have
      over the years I have noted ,ensured that nearly every article published has had ” an SNP bad” angle . This is absolutely nothing new , and has been ” par for the course” for as long as I can
      remember.

    114. Daisy says:

      Wrote a piece on Osborne’s bombshell budget:
      https://daisycollinsblog.wordpress.com/2016/03/16/osbornes-budget-austerity-to-the-max/

      Feedback much appreciated 🙂

    115. CameronB Brodie says:

      The Scottish cringe must be taken seriously as a public health issue, IMHO. How can we hope to develop a better society in Scotland, when a good chunk of us still put faith in a cargo cult and corporatised cargo science of disinformation and propaganda.

      The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. – Richard Feynman

    116. woosie says:

      Kind of the same topic.

      I received my full response from the queen’s press office ( bbc ) regarding my complaint about question time.

      On lodging my complaint the day after the “show’s” broadcast, I received an email stating that my points would be looked into in depth, and a response delivered soon ( you’ll be told to piss off next week ).

      Yesterday I received another email explaining that I was in fact mistaken, as the audience were selected from a wide range of viewpoints ( piss off ).

      Well, that’s cleared that up then!

    117. sensibledave says:

      Breastplate 4:17 pm

      You wrote: “holding an opinion and expressing it are two completely different things but you know that already.
      I’m guessing you can’t help being disingenuous.

      What is your beef Breastplate? Is it a “you need me to want you” thing? Is it a sort of a reverse Stockholm Syndrome thing – where you actually need a captor to want to hold you prisoner – so that you can hate them?

      Because I am the first person to recognise this “syndrome”, I think I have the right to give it a name. I am going to work on that. Give me some time.

    118. sensibledave says:

      Ruby 4:05 pm

      You wrote “ET is just posting the same shit that he posted on the ‘Love Bombs’ article!”

      Haha Rubes! You do make me laugh.

      Why do I sometimes make the same point – its because the same question or point is raised repeatedly and 300 people haven’t questioned it – so I offer an alternative view (if I hold that alternative view).

      This thread is in response to The Rev’s article where he, quite rightly, points out, that there is a difference between the headline and the facts. However, in my opinion he then makes a an unjustified leap by suggesting that the increase in tax is payable only by the “wealthy” – i.e. those with homes in Band E upwards.

      As has been demonstrated above, there are those that will pay increased Council Tax that are definitely not “wealthy”. They might therefore consider the increases as regressive?

      Instead of fretting about who I am, what my agenda might be, what my aims might be – why don’t you share your thoughts on the subject at hand.

      Or don’t you think – do you just wait to be told what to think by others?

      The fantastic thing is, no matter what politics we may have, that it is the Scottish Government that is making decisions on so many more things now. It doesn’t actually matter whether, in reality, a tax might be regressive or progressive because its coming anyway.

      Nevertheless, for those interested in politics and economics, it is interesting to debate and comment upon these matters don’t you think?

    119. Sassenach says:

      In the name of God, why are people attempting to argue/discuss (at great length ) with ET??

      This thread is being ruined by having to skip over all this rubbish. No argument will ever satisfy a troll, he is here to disrupt the site, nothing less.

      Let him talk to himself – it’s the only way.

    120. heedtracker says:

      Nevertheless, for those interested in politics and economics, it is interesting to debate and comment upon these matters don’t you think?

      Is that so sensible. Well get your ridiculous waffle on to this thread and explain away, divert, tantrum throw like the ambivalent disinterested yoon goon you are, on this thread

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/all-you-need-to-know-about-the-budget/#comments

    121. That’s what we want, Herald; Bums and tits. A photie of a lassie flashing a big lump of thigh and cleavage is why we, the Great Unwashed, Uneducated, Sweaties, buy your newspaper now. Bums and tits.
      You can print any old political guff you want; we’re not reading it. Bums and tits:- Cellick versus Ranjurs.That’s about the size of it.
      Bums and tits.
      Labour has ensured that over the course of nigh on forty years we have become an unwashed, uneducated, ill fed, drunken sub race, where if we can’t eat it, feck it, or drink it, we’re no’ interested.
      More bums and tits, Herald. What’s that you say?
      Jackie Baillie, Ruth Davidson, Kezia Dugdale, Willie Rennie?
      Bums and tits.

    122. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Sensibledave writes:
      “This thread is in response to The Rev’s article where he, quite rightly, points out, that there is a difference between the headline and the facts. However, in my opinion he then makes a an unjustified leap by suggesting that the increase in tax is payable only by the “wealthy” – i.e. those with homes in Band E upwards.”

      I think that is a little disingenuous. We all know that the Tory Council Tax, maintained by Labour, is regressive. That’s hardly news, is it? The SNP’s lack of ambition over CT is a disappointment to me personally for one, but it’s not a deal-breaker. It’s a “work in progress”, I guess.

      But the gist of these two articles is at the very least to snidely crow that the SNP is being hypocritical in their CT policy (blithely ignoring the practical reality of having to fight an important general election) and even worse, to try to imply, not least in the printed Herald’s case through distorted headlines, that the SNP are being the opposite of progressive.

      That’s the vileness of these half-truths, they are lawyerly-accurate enough to squeak through any possible complaint while also attempting to leave an impression in their wake that is frankly the very opposite of the truth.

      But that is the yooney media of today for you. More and more of us are getting wise to their distorted reality field, so all they are really achieving is their own self-denigration.

    123. Andrew Mclean says:

      Jack, I feel your pain, listen to this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xDjY7ccBcU

    124. Andrew, That’s for the Lennon reference.

      Not listened to it in yonks. Pure gold.

      ‘Buddy, can you spare a dime’, and ‘Ten cents a dance’, invoke the same bitter/sweet emotions as this simple Lennon gemsterpiece.

      Bread and circus, the neo-liberal way.

      Win a TV Karaoke show and make millions. The only way out, nowadays.

      The Herald has plummeted to a new low. There is no way back for them, I’m afraid.

    125. Andrew; edit. Delete ‘that’s’, insert, ‘thanks’.

    126. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Jack, I can hardly compete with John Lennon, but Michael Portillo no less claimed during the indyref that the Union has infantilised the Scots. (I might have said “institutionalised” instead, but the point remains.)

      Which makes it all the more strange that the yooney media seem to want to keep it that way! Not a great survival strategy, methinks…

    127. Robert J. Sutherland.
      BBC ‘entertainment’ output, and the relentless cosy wee circle of BBC ‘presenters’, quiz show hosts, and ‘comedians’, are designed to ‘dumb down’ the population, while the Establishment gets on with the business of ‘ruling’.
      Add to this the US hegemony of Cable TV, Netflix, and the like, and TV really is ‘bubble gum for the mind’. (James Taylor?)

      I find it difficult to believe that 100,000’s thousands of adults are huddled in bedrooms playing computer games. But they are.

    128. Rock says:

      What did the “independence supporting” The National have to say about it?

    129. Marcia says:
      16 March, 2016 at 10:54 am
      There should be an annual award ceremony for the most dishonest newspaper headline.

      Then they could compile a xmas annual of them all – a bumper edition.

    130. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Jack, I can just see the ghost of Karl Marx denouncing now: “Netflix is the opiate of the people”! =laugh=

      And whether one agrees or not with the desirability of spending a significant portion of one’s precious existence in front of a console screen, the computer games industry now contributes a significant share to Scotland’s economy, I believe…

    131. Andrew Mclean says:

      One day we will have a tv screen in every room, you will receive your news, and films, and big brother will watch your every move,

      This once was sience fiction as a nightmare, in 1984, today it’s reality.

    132. yesindyref2 says:

      @Tony Little “so the headline becomes the propaganda tool

      Yes, I was thinking the same today. People scan headlines as they’re passing the newsstand in the shop. But how does that benefit the Herald itself? That’s the puzzle.

    133. Patrick Roden says:

      You know folks, no one is really as stupid as sensibledave.

      He is calling you ‘heedy’ or ‘Rubes’ because he knows that nothing annoys Scots more than some Englishman talking down to them.

      He is winding you up to get a response, and when he gets your response he has derailed another important article.

      We often ask what more we can do to get the message out to those Scots who don’t read Wings, so why don’t some people make it a rule that they will print off some Wings adverts, perhaps three to every A4 page and agree to post five or perhaps ten each through random doors every time sensibledave makes a comment.

      It will stop you getting wound up, it will get you fit and it will grow the Independence movement.

      What’s not to like!

    134. Robert J.S.
      I agree the computer games industry is a nice little earner for the Scottish Economy, if we got to keep the Revenue, that is.

      It doesn’t alter the fact that I have friends in their fifties who steal cars and blast tanks, virtually of course, in their back bedrooms, for hours on end. I stopped playing ‘sojers’, and ‘best at falling’, when I discovered girls..about the age of 13, if my fading memory serves.
      The opposite sex, I’m pleased to observe, has been a life long fascination since.

      The maxim:- I feel that ‘They need to get out more’,applies to the Lost Boys (and it is primarily males) who lock themselves away of a night zapping spaceships or aliens.
      Hobby horse dismounted. Just watched the Bayern Juventus game..now that’s fitba’.
      And so to bed..well, almost.

    135. Robert Pennington says:

      Can’t see what the fuss about.

      Council Tax favours the wealthy. Even if the “reforms” favour them a tiny wee bit less, Council Tax still favours them more.

      Perfectly accurate headline, even if it pains us.

    136. Ronnie Stevenson says:

      The funding of local government services is a mess. So much comes from the taxes paid to the Central Governments that local taxes are a very small part of the equation. The tax changes coming into operation in Scotland for individual families are progressive but the bigger picture is that better off Council areas will get a much higher % increase in local taxation than the poorer areas. As a consequence the less well off in society will have Councils with less of an increase in actual local tax cash to spend on services than the better off. The fact that East Ren gets a better deal than Glasgow in terms of local tax take is certainly not progressive.

    137. CmonIndy says:

      Following my complaint to IPSO, here is their response:

      I write further to our earlier email regarding your complaint about the following articles:

      – “Experts condemn council tax reforms as ‘regressive’”, published by The Times on 16 March 2016;

      – “Wealthy to benefit most from council tax reform”, published by The Herald on 16 March 2016.

      On receipt of a complaint, IPSO’s Executive staff reviews it to ensure that it falls within our remit, and represents a possible breach of the Editors’ Code of Practice. The Executive has now completed an assessment of your complaint under the terms of the Code. Having considered the points you have raised in full, we have concluded that your complaint does not raise a possible breach of the Code.

      You complained under Clause 1 (Accuracy) that the headline of the article published by The Times was inaccurate because the Scottish Parliament Information Centre have concluded that the reforms make the council tax more proportionate than the current system. We should make you aware that headlines are generally considered in the context of the article as a whole.

      In this instance, the article explained the basis for the headline; it reported that the Commission on Tax Reform said “to achieve proportionality would require the tax on the highest value homes to be 15 times the tax on the lowest value homes”.

      The article then reported that “Ms Surgeon’s policy puts the multiplier at just 3.66”, illustrating that the reforms are still regressive because they are not proportionate and therefore do not create progressive taxation. As such your complaint does not raise a possible breach of Clause 1.

      You also complained under Clause 1 (Accuracy) that the headline of the article published by The Herald is inaccurate because council tax bills will increase for any houses above Band D. You said that there is a correlation between house value and wealth and that therefore, the wealthiest will be the ones paying more council tax.

      We should make you aware that headlines are generally considered in the context of the article as a whole. The article reports that plans to increase council tax bills for the most expensive households means that “schools in Scotland’s wealthiest areas” will receive “a lot more additional income” since they are situated in areas with “a higher concentration of more expensive homes”.

      The article therefore makes its position clear that schools in wealthy areas as opposed to taxpayers in Band D and above will benefit most from the council tax reform. Your complaint does not therefore raise a possible breach of Clause 1.

      You are entitled to request that the Executive’s decision to reject your complaint be reviewed by IPSO’s Complaints Committee. To do so you will need to write to us within seven days, setting out the reasons why you believe the decision should be reviewed. Please note that we are unable to accept requests for review made more than seven days following the date of this email.

      We would like to thank you for giving us the opportunity to consider the points you have raised, and have shared this correspondence with the newspaper to make it aware of your concerns.

      Best wishes,

      Isabel Gillen-Smith

      Cc The Times, The Herald

      Isabel Gillen-Smith
      Complaints Officer

      I am moved along.



    Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. If your comment does not appear immediately, DO NOT REPOST IT. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.




    ↑ Top