The Mayfly
Posted on
October 08, 2016 by
Chris Cairns
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08 10 16 08:57
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Great cartoon, Hitler’s ghost would be proud and excited over recent developments in the Tory party.
Creepy but fab.
Indeed Chris, the transformation is now complete. I think that you have done a great job capturing the xenophobic ugliness in the Mayfly’s face.
What Scotland needs now is a good supply of bug spray in the form of a successful Indyref2.
never a bad cartoon from you and this is a bulleye, You have captured an element of her repulsiveness as well.
A little black 3 inch moustache would complete the toon!
Brilliant as usual Chris.
Brilliant.
It appears the Tories are simultaneously going after the UKIP and Labour vote! I wonder if anyone south of the border will see the gap between rhetoric and reality. At the moment, it appears they are incapable and Labour’s incapable of putting up a fight!
What is it they accuse us of? Oh yeah, a one party state!
Yes but a “British” Mayfly not a foreign imported fly, a local Mayfly for local people in local villages playing local cricket and drinking local beer
Pounds Shillings and pence next let’s reset the economy with real local money not this foreign decimalisation stuff
That way we’ll make sure nobody can use the pound especially Jockland that’ll confuse and bugger them up
Britain reborn
Right on the money! But creepy. Roll on indy2!! Come on people, it’s not a matter of preference any more, it’s one of survival.
Chris chrystalizes the Mayfly.
Is Dr Jim “real”, or an algorithm? Reactivating an illusion of a “glorious” past. How far back does the “glorious”past go?
I think he must be confusing LSD with lsd!!
In a trance?
But, will THIS mayfly die after a day? This is a mutant. It will be able feed on fear and loathing.
I worry about its spawn.
Brilliant! Well done Chris. Much creepier – and more accurate – than a wolf in sheep’s clothing. It’s the inference of a swarm.
Excellent. The birth of the odious May, filled with poisonous xenophobia and hate.
As an aside, now we have heard that the Westminster Government have told the London School of Economics to prohibit any ‘foreigners’ from working on Brexit reports, where does Boris Johnson fit in to Westminster? Boris was born in New York, so by these hateful xenophobic Tory standards he isn’t a ‘true Brit’, and is a ‘foreigner’. Wonder if Boris has realised his coat is on a right shoogly auld peg?
Jim@8.36am, This fly was never intended to live very long, just long enough to take the blame when Brexit went wrong.
Small businesses in England are a tad worried about what they voted for, seeing the pound sinking like a stone, shame. Good front page on the National this morning, and an excellent cartoon here, Saturday has started well.
You’ve excelled yourself, Chris. That is one bloody superb cartoon!
Trying to put myself inside the mind of Theresa May is not a pleasant thing to do, but I can try, and that means finding a way to make Brexit work.
She has sounded out Europe, and they are unforgiving. She has sounded out Scotland, and only found more trouble ahead. She has sounded out the UN and NATO where even the US has reservations about the wisdom of exiting Europe. The door first shut on the Chinese over Hinkley Point has been forced open, and the Turks who’s imminent EU membership caused such alarm in the heads of Brexiteers are now the darlings in a Boris Johnston “jumbo” trade deal in waiting.
I’ve said it before, and I’m glad others see it too, but Theresa May has very few options, and the net result of forlorn negotiations with such little prospect of success could very easily be resentment, bloody mindedness, and a petulant UK barrelling out of Europe instantaneously the moment she triggers article 50.
Doing so would stick two fingers up to Brussells, outmanouver Nicola Sturgeon, haul Scotland crashing out of Europe, and leave us facing a stubborn indyref and the need to rejoin the EU and negotiating entry.
What has May to gain by doing it? Theatrical drama, and populist rhetoric the right wing Brexiteers will worship. What has May to lose by doing it? Well, not very much that she isn’t about to lose anyway.
Beware the ides of May, in case our hopes of staying Europe get a quick knife in the back.
The Mayfly,excellent fishing bait,but who is holding the rod?.
Creepy!
Peace Always
Good work as always Chris.
Quite a skill to put a smile on someones face and send a chill down their spine at the same time.
The importance of Independence has taken on a new dimension. IPreviously it was mainly about building a fairer society it is now about having a society!
Whether it is decimalised or seen as LSD, according to Sky news the pound had been the worst performing currency except the Argentinian peso! And we are still in the EU with full access to the single market and passoorting rights!!
I suppose the fights we have witnessed in £Ukip are just a harbinger of May-hem ahead. Still, Trump’s acolytes will come to the rescue if he is elected, according to the msm today. Trump will tear up all WTO agreements with everybody and strike a deal with London!!
Jam tomorrow!!
Genius.
It’s all in there.
The face, accepting of situation.
Inner panic, embarrassment, hidden by immediate suppression of fear.
Keep that stiff upper lip no matter what.
Good lord, Breeks. I was feeling happy this morning. That is a truly unpleasant scenario you’ve painted there. I sincerely hope you’re wrong, but we should discount nothing.
As to the cartoon, great work.
Hahaha Chris, blilliant.
Sums it up perfectly for me. The kippers will be flocking back to the Tories now one of their own is leader of the UK government.
Yes has to have it’s nose in front now. C’mon whens the next ref?
A joke is a serious thing, and the Tories stealing Ukip’s odious policies is a very serious thing. I can see so many parallels with the re-emergence of fascism in Spain, the admirer’s of General Franco, and the anti-Podemos groups.
I wonder how many Unionists realise they’re fighting against the spread of democracy.
We’re in trouble if we don’t build a wall against that virus smuggled into Scotland. Actually, it’s here already in the form of the obnoxious and ignorant David Coburn.
A chilling cartoon, Chris.
Theresa May as a Death’s-Head Hawkmoth. Holy crap.
Your weekend reading
‘Inglish as it’s spoke ‘n wrote’: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-aqs
‘A disastrous movie review’: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-arW
Brilliant cartoon yet again Chris. You have accurately captured the metamorphosis exactly.
Whatever you say about Conservative strategists,you have to be honest and say they seize every opportunity. From the disaster of Brexit, they have rummaged through the remains and stolen both UKIP and Labours last clothes.
There is one party left they need to destroy,and that is the SNP. In doing that,they will govern unopposed for a decade or more.
We must gain our freedom this time, or it is never.
themadmurph
Re “One Party State” – tony Blair was on about that the other day. Loads of news reports claiming that Labours leftward drift had created a one party state. And that he was the man to sort it out. He wants to get back into active politics again.
Please Scotland, leave this madness…..
How many times was “working class” mentioned in her speech and to what purpose? Will article 50 trigger be pulled on 1st April 2017? She may be awaiting the outcome of the legal action to determine what procedures should be followed re pulling that trigger; High Court hearing soon then a leapfrog to the UK Supreme Court who may deliver an unpleasant Xmas gift in the form of a ruling that may limit TM the PMs “royal prerogative” powers to give notification under A50. I am not a tweeter but use the “search” facility to check upon what the Tory twitters are posting; ironically, her speech content appeared to cause Gareth Baines, arch Tory supporter, some concerns, and I must confess that myself and neighbour both commented that parts of the speech could have been delivered by a Labour leader. Does TM the PM have the “punch” to win over Ukippers. Hopefully, a Police investigation will be initiated into those events, Woolfe, will he cry it? Is a solicitor not a good idea to allegedly cause injury to one of our legal friends I would have thought…
Actually, now I think about it, she’s more like the hatchling wasp which has been left a paralysed caterpillar to feast on. Disgusting and venomous!
@Grouse Beater well said.
My first reaction was ewww, then it passes into feeling creepy.
Bad times, and don’t think it can’t spread to Scotland, it can. We are vastly outnumbered.
Yes, the UKIP creepy crawly maggot metamorphs into the disease carrying Tory fly.
Great symbolism!
Tory Blair believed the way to beat the Tories was to out-Tory them.
Now, May believes the way to beat UKIP is to out-UKIP them.
This is what happens when you eat toasted cheese and read Franz Kafka late into the night, young Cairns.
An absolute gem of a graphic comment, sir.
May’s Metamorhposis indeed.
I repeat, if you weren’t such a nasty Nat, they’d be queuing at your door with the cheque book.
With UKIP in-fighting and general inability to fill out forms, a propensity to punch each other and lack of any real rationale now they have Brexit one can see the May flies all gathering under the one tree.
Hopefully they will last as long as May flies.
@Arthur Martin says: 8 October, 2016 at 7:33 am:
” … What Scotland needs now is a good supply of bug spray … “
But Scotland already has the sovereign right to hold any referendum they choose to run. They also have an anti-Westminster insecticide.
It is called, “Ile o Alba”. Mind you it won’t kill them instantly. It will just stick to them and stops them fully spreading their wings. It will weigh them down until they crash into the bit of the North Sea they stole from Scotland.
So ironically they will drown among their own lies and deceits.
What gets me about May is how, when she was appointed, unopposed, she gave that upshot speech in Downing St about helping everyone, not just the elite.
She is one of the elite, and folk just swallowed the crap, the same gullible folk that believed the Leave campaign, or wanted to.
The UK is well on the way to being reviled across the globe, just like colonial times.
Very good Chris, but on a metamorphosis point, Mayflies dae it on the water! 🙂
Yes Valerie, andforthose who stand tall in the face of oppression.. There is a distinction between Scots and Bits abroad.
The US taking a pessimistic view …
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/08/world/europe/for-britains-brexit-bunch-the-party-just-ended.html
This is an absolute classic image, Chris, possibly your best yet, but deeply troubling.
It deserves to be shared far and wide.
Question for BLiS______d: ready for eternal Torydom under this maniac?
May’s true form right enough.
Anyone who followed her actions as HS won’t be entirely surprised. Whether its the now infamous billboard vans initiative or her double act with Darling during the indyref, this individual’s card is well and truly marked. A product of truly toxic Toryism at its very worst.
If you are not ‘the right sort’ then you are at best a burden, at worst a threat. You are poor, disabled, out of work, a person of social conscience, a democrat. Perhaps you just look wrong, or you have ‘mixed blood’. Perhaps you’ve married ‘the wrong sort’? Y’know, a foreigner.
If Labour and Liberal political types are reading these columns (and we know you do), are we quite done messing with party politics yet? Do you yet realise what and where the real threat lies? Do you actually see what party politicking, naked manipulation of the public and the media narrative for years has unleashed here?
This is too important. If the current constitutional and economic crisis is headed where many of us believe, then a question will be asked for a second time. We need your help. Simple as that.
What kind of Scotland do you want your family to grow up in? A Con/UKIP UK, or a tolerant and independent Scotland?
Safe to say that time is getting a bit short.
Your best yet, Chris. Superb!
Spot on, Chris.
I’m sure May’s pupa uses bupa.
galamcennalath
And when the ‘foreigners’ are gone and the economy continues to plunge they will look for another scapegoat to blame.
In all honesty, if Scotland cannot win Independence as of now, she never will.
The Green Party general election broadcast a while back captured Westminster beautifully. I can’t think of May without the wee scene at 2 minutes
Scary but accurate, especially after their conference.
youtube.com/watch?v=s2dNEQiHUUo
The Mayfly heading off to the sewage works. Can’t see Davidson is she hiding in the shadow?
Or – The Maybenofly; Where are the BBC cameras & reporters, to fawn after each emerging moment.
Sensing more of a failed flight followed by a mighty thud.
(Sort of a pending crash & burn in aviation terms).
Nice to see the pound doing swimmingly at the moment too.
All the pensions are safe of course – oh wait the EU exit stuff still to come.
If only we hadn’t had visionaries like Brown & Darling to convince (Scare) the old folks that the British / Tory way was best ??
Powerful image Chris, shows perfectly the horror we are up against. Worries me greatly.
O/T
Another Europe is Possible: Brexit Britain: What went wrong and what next? livestream
starts at 11.30
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKTPks8QcY-i8l7YeW5OdjA/live
Links on previous thread.
Disturbingly good.
BBC SCOTCHLAND “Shereen”
Discussing brexit, us brits, the tories, labour/corbyn, ukip
Martin Raymond (member of various public bodies)–calling you Jock is alright but don’t dare mention tenement!, Synod -we are not an oppressed nation (that’s it then she’s decided (her and her pal got into the BBC through contacts I believe)and an Irishman who is more worried abut his career path as the UK is very welcoming (until now). Does Scotland exist – the SNP? – news blackout?
Shereen does not speak to the people of the housing schemes or the local towns. It speaks for the bbc cocktail circuit and I don’t mean Saville.
Theresa May should be sending them an invite to Nos 10 soon.
Top class, Chris! 🙂
There’s simply no appropriate superlatives available, thank you!
http://wingsoverscotland.com/tag/chris-cairns/
@ James Westland, 9:15am
Re: Blair. Tony the Tory may well try to split the Labs and become leader of a new party of red Tories, thus, ensuring that he keeps blue Tory governments in power for… oh, forever if he can.
Spot on cartoon by Chris. If ever a cartoon encapsulated the truth, this is it.
Disturbingly excellent ‘toon, Chris.
Can we no’ just fly May to the moon?
Ah – that’ll be my coat then.
What an insult to mayflies – delicate wee, all be it primitive insects. But wait- they only live a day- let’s hope that’s the parallel between them…
One_Scot says:
8 October, 2016 at 10:33 am
In all honesty, if Scotland cannot win Independence as of now, she never will.
……
One_Scot I’m sure you mean. “If the next referendum is fair and honest.”
One_Scot says:
“In all honesty, if Scotland cannot win Independence as of now, she never will.”
Absolutely! No more favourable set of circumstances will EVER come together.
When the full enormity of the Brexit catastrophe begins to become apparent for Scotland, we WILL chose to get off the UKOK bus.
The Scottish variant’s even nastier. They’ve won though, they got their independence and they got their country out of a union that they were very unhappy with. God help any nation that tries it with them though. Just ask Pacific Quay UKOK delights of Britishness.
I am now firmly of the opinion, that Scotland absolutely NEEDS independence from the broken xenophobic UK state as a matter of some urgency.
It really cannot wait, and if Westminster acts in a way to thwart the democratic choice of Scots, then I regard it as the DUTY of ANY Scots Gov to take WHATEVER steps are needed to ensure,
1. Scotland is not removed from the EU against its will.
2. The people of Scotland have a free, fair, democratic referendum on independence, with EU observers this time.
You see, Brexit is sooo bad for Scotland, it is incumbent on ANY First Minister to take ANY steps required to prevent Scottish EU exit against its democratically expressed will.
These things are no longer merely desirable or optional. If Westminster takes Scotland out of the EU, then these things MUST be done. Nothing less will do.
@John Edgar
Most regular folk on Wings get my meaning John I’m the good guys, honest
Just a bit of Twisted Humour or Irony or Sarcasm all of which apply to the mental comedy routine unfolding before our very eyes
Now I’ll have to wash my hands after typing on this filthy foreign keyboard
When are we going to get proper British ones made by British workers Sturgeon must answer
May and her 3 Brexiteers keep banging on about the fantastic trade deals they are going to sign with the rest of the world once they ‘escape’ from The EU.
When Nicola calls Indyref2, we win and are welcomed with open arms by The EU the followng will result:-
All Scottish Exports will disappear from Rump UK’s Balance of Payments and that includes the goods currently exported through English ports and credited as English Exports.
All Scottish Oil & Gas which currently goes to England become imports and Scottish Oil and Gas which is exported disappears from Rump UK’s Balance of Payments.
Meanwhile, If Nissan, Toyota, Honda, Jaguar/Land Rover, Mini, RR, Bentley and Airbus decamp to The EU all their current exports disappear and presumably the products of these companies instead of being exported become imports to Rump UK again with major adverse effects on the Balance of Payments not forgetting the loss of probably hundreds of thousands of jobs.
Furthermore if as is being suggested large parts of the City of London decamp to The EU the effect of that will be enormous.
Regarding the ‘promised fantastic trade deals’ with the rest of the world and bearing in mind the above I would welcome suggestions as what, apart from arms sales, will be left to export.
Guesses as to what the resultant Balance of Trade deficit is likely to be are welcome bearing in mind the current enormous BoT deficit as members of The EU.
As I see it, following the Tory Party’s latest lurch to the right, Indyref2 is now a nailed-on certainty.
Nicola’s problem will be the timing. There remains the possibility, the UK governement could pauchle the Brexit process to the extent we are taken out of Europe against our will, and might have to re-apply.
I wonder, in such a scenario, might not linking-up with Norway and Switzerland in EFTA be a better bet.
I can see why the UK after Brexit might not be welcome in EFTA – too-large an economy, and, in any case, given the EFTA countries are signed-up to the four principles which the English want nothing to do with, it probably will not happen.
However, Scotland in EFTA would be a good fit and perhaps EFTA membership would be a good fall-back position, should problems arise re full EU membership.
That said, continuing EU membership would be my first choice, however, if perfidious Albion is as perfidious as normal, my remarks in the previous paragraph, I think, hold good.
Genius, Chris.
Mayflies only live one day but this is a longer-life, genetically modified one (UKOK will be abandoning European caution about that money-making technology) immune to all known fly sprays.
The only hope is a mighty predator in the shape of Hamish the lion. But he will have to act fast. The suspicion that they are plotting an overnight Brexit, when no one is looking, in an attempt to outmanouevre IndyRef 2, is too terrifying.
THE BREXITTERS and the newly won over Davidson and fluffy whits his name cant get away with the fact that Scotland remaining in the EU can negotiate from strength to any deal with Westminster. The tide is turning.
Having said that some tories I know are a bit quiet this week as they struggle with the fact that their party is turning into a racist hybrid of tory/ukip and even the remnants of bnp.
The Nasti party as a former home secretary would say.
A fantastic and very disturbing image, Chris.
UKIP if you want to, but the lady’s party is even more extreme now.
Perfectly captured the moment,Chris
Great work Chris captures the moment perfectly as the real face of UKIP finally rears its ugly head,said all along UKIP was run from Conservative HQ.
After Nige gets round the worlds wanna be dictators it will be a nice ermine jacket and a seat beside the other parasites on society.
Gus 1940,
‘what, apart from arms sales, will be left to export’
Furriners?
Nice one,Chris. Going to be a long day though!
Ever brilliant, Chris.
INDYREF2. TRAP 2.
Re IndyRef2. The one necessary condition for another Indy defeat is already in place. Westminster will prevail at the next Scottish Independence Referendum because the Scottish Electorate believe the British Government incapable of rigging the result.
Support for independence could be 90%, but it will make no difference to the declared result.
Call it gullibility, call it naivety, call it political illiteracy, call it by any other name, but Scotland has it in skip loads.
The majority simply cannot bring themselves to even consider that IndyRef14 was rigged, in spite of so many factors in that ballot which were democratically unsafe, beginning with the secrecy imposed by Westminster and including the false bribery inherent in the Vow, and media domination.
Brexit offers an independence opportunity perhaps like no other. But with the means, the method and the motive to rig IndyRef2, Westminster will not miss THEIR opportunity to secure England’s future economic wellbeing by tightening their already firm grip on Scotland’s vast natural wealth.
To prevent this, the Independence Movement will have to do something very different from last time, but it must begin with the realisation that the actual ballot itself will be totally unsafe, if left in the control of local and national Unionist agencies, like the Electoral Commission .
Found in drawer this morning two European Health Insurance Cards (wife and me). Said to her “well we won’t be using these again”.
And neither we will. Do these Tories really understand what leaving the EU means? I wish Merkel and Hollander would produce a list of what the people of Britain will lose, since I don’t think the Leave bunch have grasped the reality.
John H. says:
“If the next referendum is fair and honest.”
Robert Louis says:
“a free, fair, democratic referendum on independence, with EU observers this time.”
I genuinely expect EU oversight.
Firstly they have a duty to protect and stand up for EU citizens attempting to retain status and rights by democratic means.
Secondly, they have stated the UK must be seen to experience pain by leaving as a deterrent to others. There could be no greater punishment than dissolution of the UK itself.
Graun’s very tory Scotch cringers strike back? No just a long dreary defence of tenements, not obedient toryboy retainers from Nairn. If it makes cringers feel better about Basil Fawlty and Horatio Nelson, but its tragi comic.
http://archive.is/EFlSY
Get the insecticide out quick! …local elections good place to start, consolidate in Scotland and clear the decks for Indy2.
SNP X how many and leave the other boxes empty.
@Hamish100
You echo my sentiments there alright… suffered most of it on a car journey this morning. Vacuous rubbish!
I was reading the MSN and most of the contributers (let’s call them) were insulting the French the Germans the Belgians well everybody in Europe mostly because Europe is refusing to do what “Britain” wants and bow to the demands of the great empire
So I thought I’d add my Groatsworth so I said “At least it’s a change for everybody to be insulting the Europeans it takes your minds off the Scots”
They can’t help themselves can they I was immediately set upon and got the full dose of stupidity blurted out like projectile vomit
It used to be just the Ukippers that went in for this stuff now they’re all at it, well not all, but a lot
Daisy May’s going to have to answer for her big silly gub she’s gone far too far and stirred up too many local people
in local England
Another great toon Chris.
We are in a critical moment. Will May upsurp Scotland and get an early Brexit and leave us high and dry.
My main concern is do we have enough Yes voters to gain our Independence?
I say this as I followed this site and the Indy movement religiously for over 2 years before the ref and honestly thought we would just win the ref. A lot here were predicting Yes at between 55-60%. As it transpired No won with 55%. This was a great surprise to me and a lot of Yes voters as to the margin of the10% by which No won by.
I’m seriously worried we are still nowhere in convincing enough people in Scotland to vote for Independence, even despite of Brexit, the Tories, Labour etc. Too many Scots are still ingrained in the UKOK mentality. This is so, due to no counter arguments being presented by the MSM (including all the news channels, BBC etc). Exactly as what happened during the ref 1 debate. Just the other day I was talking to an elderly Scottish friend about oil and brought up the McCrone report in the conversation and guess what he had never heard of it.
If Indy2 is run along the same lines as Indy1 then I’m afraid we could end up with the same result albeit it being closer, which to me would be a nightmare. I know we no longer have the Labour Party to do the Tories dirty work but we are up against a very well organised establishment with the full force of the MSM and that’s what can win the day as we clearly found out in Indy1.
Great cartoon!
Heard this week – ” See that May woman. She is like Thatcher but maybe not as nice.”
Its Europe for me Socrates MacSporran.
Nothing against EFTA, but with Europe and our oil and renewables, there is a much greater opportunity to be selling to Europe what Europe hasn’t got. The demand might in fact be limitless, with Scotland one of the brighter gems in Europe.
I like the whole concept of Scotland giving the EU a shot in the arm, as a dynamic progressive wee country which personifies the European ideals.
We need to be patient regarding an Indy2.
Brexit is not yet upon us so the consequences are not yet fully understood.
Many Scots voters still cling to nostalgic notions of Britain being a great nation, strong economically, diplomatically and in defence.
The opposite is, of course, true, but until people actually experience the ship wreck that will be Brexit, then they will not be convinced of Indy.
For those with eyes to see it is painfully obvious that the UK is in crisis. Only countries that are in crisis lurch to the Right and play the xenophobic card.
Scottish voters need to understand this and the only way that will happen is to be a witness to the post Brexit mess.
There will be economic problems; there will be social unrest; there will be further knee jerk neo fascist reactions from the UK Government, Establishment and media to come.
All we need to do is to be patient and watch events unfold.
We also need to start positioning ourselves as a polar opposite to the mess that is Future England/Wales but in a sensible fashion. It’s time for cool heads.
I would also strongly recommend that we keep the language sane. It’s not all of England & Wales that enthusiastically embraced Brexit and we have to remember that. And those that did (and we are talking 17 million people!) do have legitimate concerns that need to be listened to. Painting the entire population as some sort of neo fascist mob is not the answer.
Brexit may not have been the wisest choice for England & Wales (or for a large number of Scots voters!) but those people have an expectation of change in the immediate future which has not yet arrived. And for all concerned we need to sit back and watch events take their course.
There are going to be a lot of bitterly disappointed people when the truth finely dawns and it is at that point that Indy2 becomes of great importance in the debate.
So let us not get to impatient about Indyref2. The time will choose itself. We just need to be patient and try to weather the storm. That storm has now arrived and there will be difficult and frustrating times ahead.
It’s the wreck after the storm that is the important time for us, because it’s then that people will survey the wreckage that was once their good ship UK, foundered upon the shore of the Brexit vote, and a very large penny will drop for a very large number of Scots voters.
Until that time, just keep calm and bide your time. We don’t actually have to do anything because it’s all being done for us.
seanair
Let’s hope you never need to use the EHIC but keep a hold of them… plan is not to leave but to lead the EU (with thanks to GB for the yes indy ref 2 campaign slogan)
Keep the faith- we’re going nowhere (which could be the next no campaign’s slogan)
There will be no quick brexit,folks need to understand article 50 legislation must be signed this must be done in the European parliament its a negotiation between partners not a tory dictate to be sneaked through westminster.
And besides you think big Guy will miss out an a big EU exposure news piece that will run through 27 nations media outlets(28 if you count us).
That is why the tories are mad as hell they have to go kiss some EU butt and somehow make it look like they are getting a good deal to appease both sides of the EU debate in England.
Frankly i have more chance of getting to the moon on my nitro glycerin powered space hopper.
Needed a laugh.
Got one.Though maybe I shouldn’t!
Thanks Chris.
Best yet.Unsurpassable.
@Derek M,
Sorry to disagree Derek, but I believe a quick, hard Brexit is very much on the Tory agenda. They cannot allow the SNP the luxury of time to organise and set the agenda for another referendum. Why ?
The pound is in real trouble and every economist is warning of the peril to come throughout the UK. England cannot afford to lose the income from Scotland, even excluding the oil. They like any other have borrowed against income receipts. To lose £58 billion would leave them in a terminal position ,given that borrowing is heading towards 100% of GDP for the whole UK. ( currently 86%)
The Tories are now talking of borrowing to invest in infrastructure. Nobody would give them that should they lose £ 58 billion from their balance sheet overnight.
A good and very relevant cartoon these Tories can morph into anything ,say anything that suites at any particular moment does anyone here trust or believe anything they say .
Ok a practical question how can the next indy vote be corrupted how can the Unionist establishment interfere with the result , finally what can be done to stop this happening is there anything we can do ?
That is simply superb.
Dissolve the union the SG have no other choice. They do not have the time to organise a 2nd ref.
If another Indy ref comes along England will unleash the hounds of hell apron us and the ref will fail.
England is bankrupt and needs Scottish assets to finance her debt.
The end is nigh
I would agree Bob that will be their tactic but you miss out that the EU also have a say in this something westminster is very keen that you forget about.
They would like us to have a referendum right now rush it through before article 50 is signed that way they get to run the election,once they sign it they breach our rights as EU citizens and will have no say in being able to run a referendum in Scotland involving the EU
As others have mentioned if we let them run the election we will lose Tory Election Fraud now i wonder what happened to that,some of England are even starting to think the EU ref was fiddled i think it was fiddled by both sides may the best fiddler win its the UKOK way.
Fidelma Cook: Many expats – the same ones who voted Leave – are facing their vote’s reality
https://archive.is/PuIi5#selection-1773.0-1773.91
BREXIT fixed…
http://imgur.com/a/cMp7c
We really all know when the ref will be
It’ll be within the two years but probably as late on as we can, by then all the UKs cards will have been played and everyone will know the consequences of them and it’ll be on
It’s our side that can afford patience, the UK has to have a set timetable they’ve got no choice and all the EU leaders now have made the position clear, without the 4 freedoms there is no deal no bespoke tailor made special fit for the good old UK and boy they’re going to kick up a fuss about it
So far we’ve had the Germans the French the Belgians the Slovaks and I don’t know how many others all speaking in support of Nicola Sturgeon personally and Scotlands position
It going to be down to the NO voters from last time and if 10% of them turn and see sense when it’s staring them in the face but no matter what happens we know there are Yoons out there who will not be moved and folk like Rooth the Mooth will wave her Union flag and scream no surrender till the end and then when it’s over she and her mates will make their new lives in that big Lundin anyway because for the likes of her it isn’t about Scotland it’s just about her
and likely the same with Dozy Dugdale escept she won’t go to Lundin, no job there for her (nursery person maybe)
call me dave says:
8 October, 2016 at 1:57 pm
Fidelma Cook:
Of course it is life on a knife-edge but isn’t life anywhere?
Meanwhile, many expats here – the same ones who actually voted Leave – are facing up to the reality of their vote. Their new reality, where their fixed income has taken a big hit.
For once I have no sympathy. What did they think would be the aftermath?
Even now, many refuse to really examine what is to come. “You don’t think it will actually happen, do you?” said one.”
Never mind expats. Everything is going to get more expensive here in teamGB. Food, petrol, holidays, white goods, anything imported, dearer German cars are just the tip of it. Most middle and upper middle class UK German car buyers can afford 10% on their new Merc, its on tick mostly anyway, with very strong marketing but everything we buy is going up.
A sinister neo-fascist, xenophobic, cabal has been brewing and growing in the Tory party for some years.
May was the anointed one. Survival of several resign level mistakes as Home Secretary attested to that.
Cameron was aware of the cabal and tried to avoid takeover by the hive.
For example, he appointed europhile Ken Clarke as Justice Minister knowing he would oppose leaving the ECHR.
Leaving the ECHR was seen as a sneaky back door EU exit ploy by the hive.
Cuckoldgate was an attempt to unseat Cameron but he preempted that with an early press release.
However, the pressure was on and when Clarke was back stabbed by the hive, Grayling got the job. He, May and others pressed on with plans to leave the ECHR > EU.
Cameron’s personal mandate in getting an outright majority allowed him to dump Grayling and he also attempted to preempt another coup by saying he would step down.
Signing up to indyref1 and announcing a future EU referendum he hoped this would flush the nutterati out into the open and they would be finished off when Brexit lost.
It was a gamble worth taking. He lost. Note how he didn’t hang around long afterwards either.
Fake leadership contest with Boris being taken out.
Now we are hearing ‘We are the Worker’s Party’.
Straight out of Nazism 1.0.1. Before changing their name, the Nazi party was actually called the German Worker’s Party.
Derek M @ 1.51
I understand what you are saying and hope you are right.
But I can see Westminster and a tame media creating the narrative of how right we were to grab our Soverenty.
Look at how Brussels is still trying to dictate to us.
They can stick their Article 50,we are Sovereign and we are out….. Stuff like that,espicall if it could be used to harden the resolve of the Great British Public to stand firm in the face of the “Punishment” that would follow.
Remembering that the only real limit on Parliament’s Soverenty is popular (people) Soverenty.
So my question would be what if anything would be the repercussions to The UK if they did that?
What is stopping them?
http://www.northern-scot.co.uk/News/Nuclear-waste-flights-creating-extra-risk-07102016.htm
Another use for their Scotland region.
I’m with DerekM on this one.
There are treaties between the UK and the EU which are very big stones in the way of a rapid (overnight) exit.
If the UK declares itself, without negotiations and/or signing of a termination agreement, then it is basically declaring UDI from the EU. That will not go down well with the EU members and just about everyone else in the business or political world. May would be foolish to even try.
The EU can drag the talks on for a very long time and give Scotland more time to act and parallel back us up with help as well as bringing “Holding Pens” into play.
Just a thought: if the UK plays UDI then Scotland can also play the same game but we won’t be the baddies. 🙂
Move along. Nothing to sea here…
http://imgur.com/a/DyKw1
BBC tory r4 news odd to listen to today, or as normal, Andy Murray’s in the final in China but the British women’s No.1 Johanna Konta gets BBC r4 top billing. Johanna Konta’s actually from Sydney Australia and her parents are Hungarian. Does she go on the tory lists of foreigners in their UK now? Johanna came to the UK a decade or so ago, so maybe she’s on PM May’s list but provisional.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/37594986
@Dr Jim
Seems to me the occasional totally reasonable prod, which appears to neutral readers to be a totally reasonable and sensible thing to say, but the extremists find provocative because of their own xenophobia or other extreme views, is a very good tactic.
What a superb cartoon.
A good image is worth more than a thousand words and this cartoon is a fantastic example.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/37595132
GO ANDY! Ofcourse and as usual, BBC creeps refuse to show any Andy Murray tennis in their Scotland region. Why, we’re not told. What times the big World Cup qualifier Scotland game on tonight BBC vote NO Scotland gimps?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/37527243
BBC coverage
How to follow:
Listen on BBC Radio Scotland 810MW/DAB/online and BBC Radio 5 live; text commentary on the BBC Sport website
What the fuck is wrong with proudScot buts?
@call me dave
Seems to me the Rev is going to have to do an article on this nearer the time, because the council elections are on STV not AMS, with the T in STV standing for transferrable.
If there are 4 SNP candidates for a ward for 4 seats, and you put SNP 1, 2, 3 and 4, then if your 5th choice is Green, that doesn’t get looked at until all your first 4 choices 1,2,3 and 4, have either been elected, or knocked out. Only then does it look at your 5th choice.
Meanwhile any excess votes on an elected SNP candidate are transferred to their next choice – so when the SNP have won the first 3 seats, the excess votes are transferred onto your 4th choice,, the remaining SNP candidate.
If he or she loses, then and only then is your 5th choice looked at.
And at that stage, there are no SNP candidates left, they’ve either been elected or eliminated, so your 5th choice for Green is NOT competing against any SMP candidates.
The council elections really are where SNP, Green and anyone else, can help each other by putting our own candidates first for as many of them there are, then puttng the other pro-Indy parties afterwards.
@Graf Midge hunter,
Remember that article 50 is ONLY about starting the negotiating process of redistribution of assets ,trade etc.
The Conservatives have already told us they are going to start repealing the 1972 Communities Act, which is in effect our EU membership next year. In other words our membership would be terminated before the article 50 negotiations possibly start.
If UKgov decided to just huff and ‘udi’ brexit the EU would probably declare sanctions on UK trade amongst other economic sledgehammers that would damage UK’s reputation and capacity to do deals with other nations.
Think about it, if it was ‘that’ easy to get out of negotiations after triggering A50 then the repercussions for the EU itself are catastrophic in terms of contagion. There is absolutely no way this would be ‘allowed’ to occur without a severe response from the other 27 members.
I’ve been thinking on this past few days, our current administration at the UKgov level ‘are’ capable of anything. I’m beginning to view England as a ‘rogue nation’, if they attempted a backdoor fuck you they would merely confirm this as reality.
Do they feel lucky? Well do they…punks? (hehehe)
Graf Midgiehunter @ 2.52
I guess that’s what I’m really asking….if it just a Treaty or Treaties that’s between the UK & EU,and the UK say,s tough we are not abiding by it then what?
That’s exactly what Hitler did with the Treaty of Versailles is it not?
The German people were persuaded to agree and the rest of Europe did nothing!
Chris…beautiful artwork…
May flies…by the arse o’ her pants 😉
@Bob Mack
The proposal for repealing the Communities Act is taht even though the legislation gets passed, it won’t be effective until the actual day of Brexit, not before.
EU parliamentary procedure is what will stop them article 50 is not the end its the start and until they sign it they can jump up and down and scream their silly little heads off as much as they want about what they will do.
They are in no position to make demands of what the EU should or should not do or what they should or should not debate in their parliament,fast track brexit if i have one criticism about the EU is their bureaucrats dont half take their time about things.
Liz, then Scotland and the remaining 48% would of course ‘not comply’, this is where there are ‘stark’ differences. It would create civil unrest the likes of have never been seen on these islands…do they feel lucky?
I read an article by Mr Heffer in the Telegraph in which he declares that May like Mr Enoch Powell is listening to the people and acting on it.
If the UK had listened to Mr Powell all those years ago then we would have no Chuka Umuna, no Priti Patel, or many others from ethnic backgrounds in Parliament or anywhere else.
It is coded speak for “Anglo Saxon” supremacy, and he can only write this shit because of recent events. No doubt if challenged he would cite Eastern Europe, but we all know his real intention.
Great cartoon. Not a ‘submarine’ but a chrysallis….
Faisal Islam getting flak on twitter from Leavers/kippers for tweeting that the rest of the world viewed May’s speech with horror, and that a German newspaper compared the Tories to Trump, Marine Le Pen, AfD…. Brit Nats saying ‘this is ridiculous comparison’.
‘Oh but wid God the gift tae gi us… ‘ English disbelief at this is how they are perceived.
K1 @ 3.27
I worry that civil unrest is actually what they would like.
Because I don’t think it would be Across this Island I think it would be Scot on Scot.
A distraction from an Indy Ref to be sure.
Sorry for sounding like I’m scaremongering , really only saying what’s been rattling around in my head.
Especially since I don’t have to worry anymore about What was
Halfway Down Robertson Street
@Bob Mack 3.29
Agreed. Really awful reading that piece. I’ve always felt the Tories were capable of this shit, but the speed with which its been embraced and celebrated by folk like Heffer, is headspinning.
It’s the same as May trying to repaint the ‘middle ground’ as kipper values. This is all well and truly out in the open, and closet racists are out and proud.
Scary shit.
@yesindyref2,
I understand what you are saying,but Mrs May made the point that they are already working on repealing the 1972 Act.even prior to pressing article 50 some time in March next year.
This is somewhat strange given that the negotiating period is up to two years.
I have not as yet figured out why they would do this ,as you rightly point out it seems they are getting signals from the EU that very little can be offered Re trade unless the UK complies with the rules.
Therefore the train of thought could be “why hang about” when they have to start from scratch anyway.
A quick exit would put the SNP in some difficulty but protect UK interests here at home.
I certainly hope May does not opt for an instant Brexit, and yes, I agree it would be foolish, however the Westminster elite have something of a history making foolish decisions which defy logical explanation. Brexit itself has reduced the UK to a laughing stock in some quarters already.
My point is simply forewarned is forearmed. The UK is up to its neck in this.
As I understand it, Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty is the first step in the negotiated exit from Europe, but where such negotiations are already introduced as punitive in character, then what does a wounded Westminster seriously have to gain by engaging with them other than galling humiliation? Britain doesn’t do humiliation particularly well. It gets dangerous.
If that is the best that can be expected from the negotiated exit, then Britain being Britain, they will find another way, and perhaps choose an option with minimal negotiation and maximum assertion of sovereign UK authority. Until we are independent, or imminently so, the U.K. will continue to include us.
Liz
K1
Whether the Tories feel “lucky” or not, who knows what goes through their few brain cells?
What’s certain is that they live in a strange world where they think they are calling the shots and that everyone else bows down to their wonderful political skills..!
Deppen is what they’re called here.
http://archive.is/QxlzX
Torygraph deeply creepy as ever. How come these guys are never off the BBC, Oliver Letwin’s another hard core tory fav, ofcourse his esteemed colleague
https://twitter.com/IsabelOakeshott
on Ligger Neil’s BBC Olitics show yesterday for example, extolling brilliant and great UKIP, half educated tenement cringer retainer Fraser Nelson’s usually on, a tory dude from the FT’s the tory hipster, Grauns’s Nicholas Watt, he’s a dreadful tory Graun shyster, and on it goes in the tory BBC led media freak show.
The only remotely interesting stuff about the BBC tory domination is other far right toryboy’s all desperately trying to get on BBC politics tv and radio, like this twerp
https://twitter.com/iainmartin1
Torygraph’s Heffer, bring back Comical Cockers.
“It was hardly surprising that, as I listened to Theresa May’s speech last Wednesday, I was reminded of Powell.
When she told some of her colleagues, and their tame pundits in the media, to stop whining about Brexit and instead to respect the votes of more than 17 million people who had found the EU unpalatable, she made a profoundly Powellite point. She accused such people of sneering at the majority who voted in the referendum. In truth, it is a sneer that has lasted for decades.”
They want us to jump the gun they always have the constant harping on about no referendums back in you box Scotland rubbish was to provoke us,they knew just as we did that if an EU referendum went the way it did then Scotland would be able to dodge the UK state election machine.
Which i might add stole our independence in 2014 though with hindsight maybe that was not such a bad thing as now our negotiations for an independent Scotland will have the EU behind us,going solo with them in negotiations did kind of worry me back in 2013-14 but was something i had accepted with indy.
Its a funny old world 🙂
An excellent caricature of the Tory Leader. I wonder which section fractured extremist vote they’ll try to appeal to next.
For Indyref2 the xenophobia is all bankable rhetoric for the campaign.
Lets hope lessons have been learned because the spin team will be in action again from no campaign.
@Bob Mack
I thnk it would be similar to the Scotland Act 2012 changes. Even though they were passsed in the HoC and went on to get Royal Assent in 2012, they didn’t come into effect mostly until this year – 4 years later. Hence the hoohah from Labour in oppoistion about Swinney not putting 1p on the tax.
Presumably it would be the same for the Communites. Passed in 2017, not effective until 2019 or later if by some miracle the EU agreed to an extension of the 2 year deadline.
Mmm, I quite like the idea of even more of a mis-spelling – oppoisonition (op-poison-ition). It describes the Tories in Scotland.
As the blue tories inject as much poison into this country as the BBC can possibly manage, the red tories in their Scotland region try to copy them. They’re doing a pretty good job too, on balance.
From
Scott Arthur Retweeted
euan mccolm ?@euanmccolm Oct 7
i believe in scottish exceptionalism and nauseating virtue signalling. #wearescotland
to
Scott Arthur ?@DrScottThinks 4h4 hours ago
The SNP’s apologist is now referring to Labour councillors as “brain dead cockroaches”. What does one do with cockroaches? #WeAreScotland
Liz, 62% in Scotland voted Remain, this isn’t ‘as’ polarised in Scotland on the issue of EU membership as it is on the independence question…but the first will ‘sharpen’ the mind’s of those who voted No, it is already happening. They too can see what is happening, Scotland is not a ‘Tory’ stronghold, England is.
People are not fooled by Davidson or any belief that there is some sort of resurgence of the Conservatives in Scotland, tactical voting from diehard ‘Unionists’ amongst disaffected Labour (they no longer have a party in Scotland) voters are what is slightly increasing their vote share.
We did not have a ‘divisive’ referendum. We did not attack one another in the streets. On the back of the Brexit ref there is great divisiveness in England. It’s that powederkeg that the Tories will set off if they are stupid enough to believe that half of England will stand back whilst they behave like arrogant little dictators and march out of EU negotiations in a huff.
I’m not worried about Scotland, we are a left of centre polity, that’s not an ‘abstract’ statement. Our current Scottish government and the 56 MP’s we sent to Westminster are proof positive of that ‘fact’. We will not be railroaded into a right wing narrative not of our making, no matter how hard our msm here push that agenda and try to create divisions where there are none. It’s a different matter down south, and it’s that I am referring to when I say civil unrest on these islands.
I know that doesn’t mean we will not have our own ‘nutjobs’ acting out, but an incident does not denote a ‘trend’.
Much of that/those conference speech/es was/were a ‘phoney’ show of strength directed at EU, they are testing the waters, looking for indicators and feedback from the EU and their own ‘polity’. Which now happens to be swelled by those same disaffected Labour voters who have been brainwashed by the UKIP narrative. These ‘ordinary’ folks don’t see themselves as ‘right wing’ they just see that they have nothing left to lose, they don’t see the contradiction of a paid up member of the elite telling them they are on their side. It’s the same with Trump’s base support.
The infiltration of the racists/xenophobes into the working class English communities is where the stirring up of atavistic emotions and blaming of those ‘foreign’ or ‘other’ has really taken root in recent times. This has been ‘stoked’ by the papers that these communities have traditionally relied upon for their ‘world view’ and it is that that the Tories ‘tapped’ into during the EUref.
They have created a ‘monster’ and now they are appeasing that creature. It is utterly sickening to see people’s naivety being used against their best interests in this manner, but it’s very Tory and we have for decades since Thatcher ‘known that game’. We have not allowed the racists/xenophobes into our working class communities, we have not allowed it to ‘root’ in the same way?
Ergo UKIP has found no ‘footing’ in Scotland?
I very much doubt that Scotland will turn ‘inwards’, we are renowned for our turning ‘outwards’ in situations such as these. Nicola Sturgeon rightly immediately called Davidson out on the xenophobic conference she had just returned from during FMQ’s on Thursday. She also rightly said we would support any business that refused to give lists of their ‘foreign’ workers.
We need calm, rational, intelligent people like Nicola more than at any other time in our recent history. We are all seeing the indisputable similarities between Germany in the 30’s and now, but bear in mind we live in a far more technically advanced age where we are globally connected in a way unimaginable back then.
Scotland is a small country, we all know one another, keep talking tae folks, keep the kindness uppermost wi friend’s ‘n strangers alike, wi differences in outlook remain compassionate and keep slipping the emails and sharing links and re arranging National’s on our newsagent’s shelves…
Scotland will be independent Liz…in the manner and time of ‘our’ choosing.
Just got a bbc response containing an apology for a factual error on BBC reporting Scotland. Once I gather myself up from the floor and come to I might be able to reproduce it here so all can bask. For the moment I need some smelling salts and a bucket of cold water
*chucks the bathwater aw o’er Tam…*
Slightly O/T—See that 100 BBC “Celebrities and presenters” are named and shamed in some of the English Papers………….Haven’t seen it on the BBC Website.
Do you think any of the “celebrities” are from BBC Shortbread ?
K1 @ 4.40
Thanks you my friend for taking the time to reassure me. I know I’m probably over thinking this.
I am hoping that you are right about Scotland and wrong about England,surely some will see sense.
As you wisely said the best thing to do is keep on keeping on.
OT and probably very naughty democratically.
I finally blindlingly obviously realised that what’s needed for the SNP depute leader is not an emphasis on the EU nor local democracy, nor reform of the SNP party for the near 100,000 new members which will probably happen anyway, what’s needed isn’t someone whose main attention might be on just one issue and lose track of the main objective – Independence.
What’s needed is a steady as she goes, experienced, depute who has Sturgeon’s back, gets out the 4.5 inch Mark 8 NATO gun to blast small icebergs in the way out of the water, a quick hand on the helm to steer clear of bigger icebergs, already experienced in internal high level communications, but prepared to go full steam ahead in clear waters.
The choice was obvious!
Did you choose Alyn yesindyref2?
@K1
He was 2nd, Angus 1st. I also voted the other 2 into 3rd and 4th as, cough, with STV there’s no need to leave blank choices!
(((HELP, WE NEED SOME MONEY, HELP, NOT JUST ANY MONEY, HEEEELP!)))
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/going-postal–4#/
Brilliant imagery yet again Chris.
https://caltonjock.com/2016/10/08/the-eye-of-the-beholder-can-you-believe-the-bbc-and-the-newspapers-i-think-not/
Yesindyref2@3:10
…not quite right
It assumes most people understand the system. It is very difficult to balance the vote across multiple candidates from the same party. E.g. One of the SNP candidates could get very few or even zero 1st preference votes and be out. The risk of putting up multiple candidates is trying to balance the spread. Do you guarantee 2 wins or risk going for 3 and end up with one council lot – even though you had the same number of votes. Council Ward voting is very complex.
I find it a great deal more difficult than the model you describe. If the SNP gamble on too many candidates your model could lead to SNP voters knocking out an SNP candidate at the later stage.
Britnats in a stew. RT on WoS but this could be written in any Scottish newsroom and especially Pacific Quay, that will never show a Scotland match again, or Andy Murray for that matter
http://archive.is/A3I9V
“I would never now show any Scottish symbol. They are all lost to me. I would not wear a tartan skirt. I would not go to a ceilidh. I would not go to a Burns supper. I have lost my flag and I have lost a part of my identity.
Of course I do not deny that I am Scottish.
But I think of Scotland now as the equivalent of Aberdeenshire. I likewise do not deny that I am Aberdonian. But I don’t wear any symbols of Aberdeenshire. I fly no Aberdeenshire flags or wear a Dons strip while walking up Union Street. I rarely now speak Doric. I hardly know anyone who does”
Brilliant Chris, 😉
….and so they emerged….gathering,in the now rancid,foaming,corridors of Downing St….like flies round shite….the parasitic press,the bottom feeders,still silently cleaning the Mayfly’s ring.
The buffalo rider,smiles,remembering her instructions….emerge,feed,only when your are downwind,when upwind you must continue to wait,(they will smell your stink).
This is why they fear Indyref2,in Birmingham,their true colours were seen by all,they cannot be unseen,the rancid smell of fascism,cannot be disguised,by the BBC ringpiece cleaners,what was said,cannot be unsaid…we all smelt it,we all saw it,we all heard it.
#weareScotlandwearereadyIndyref2
I think I finally understand the Yooniverse. It is governed by some very simple rules.
1. The Great England model for the Atlantic Isles is the only valid political structure. To suggest that there are alternative models involving multiple nations and cultures in partnership is heresy.
2. There is no need for evidence. All that is required is belief in the entitlement and exceptionalism of the Greater England model.
3. Those who detract from the Yoon world view are bad, and to be hated and ridiculed.
4. Everyone is full of hatred and anger, just like Yoons.
An example of all four rules working together. North Britain has many heretics who deny the indisputable superiority of the Greater England model. Yoons hate these heretics for their deviance and subversion. Yoons seem to believe Westminster or Tories are code words for the English. The heretics therefore mean they hate the English when they say they hate Westminster or Tories.
@K1 4.40pm
Good post and well said.
@Clootie
“One of the SNP candidates could get very few or even zero 1st preference votes and be out.”
Makes no difference though if you put in 5th, 6th and so on, or leave them blank. They’re not looked at UNTIL that candidate is out, presuming you put him / her higher than the blanks or Greens. Your higher preference vote for that candidate is still in the running until they are actually eliminated.
I’m not an enormous footy fan as you know but I just wonder how many countries who’s National footy team are playing don’t get to see it on their tellys
Even teensy weensy Iceland can put all their National footy on the telly but Scotland STV and BBC can’t seem to manage that
If the Spanish National team were kept off their tellys that country would go completely nuts
I wonder if the Scotland footy game were to be screened in England instead of their own National footy team would we be able to hear the objections from here
See nobody can tell me it’s a scheduling problem or financial or any such shit as that it’s plain and simple and easy to see even for an ijit
Now I’ve got one of those Sky dodgy boxes and I can get about 200 channels and I’ll probably watch Lord of the Rings anyway but I still think it’s garbage for the footy folk, so if you want to get a dodgy box see me over on OT
and I’ll tell you how
@Clootie
Sorry, posting in-between jungle clearance with a hedge-trimmer while it’s still light.
Pretty sure I’m right, here’s a 2 page pdf from the Electoral Commission, but I’ll need to read it properly when it’s dark, rather than just scan it!
http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/electoral_commission_pdf_file/0020/13286/SingleTransferableVote_16767-12218__E__N__S__W__.pdf
Robert Peffers,
“But Scotland already has the sovereign right to hold any referendum they choose to run.”
If the current Scottish parliament voted by a majority vote for independence, is there any SCOTTISH LAW that would make it ILLEGAL?
If there is, which one?
O/T.
I was in Asda this morning buying my usual Saturday pack of Muffins.
Popped a tenner into the self service till only to be given a wee plastic Bank of England fiver as change. Pathetic looking wee thing.
As soon as I got in to work I swapped it for a real Royal Bank of Scotland fiver out of the till. Felt much better.
Looks like they’re going to try and flood our country with their rapidly depreciating fiat currency.
@heedtracker 5.56.
“Thanks” for your link and the insight into the mind that is Effie Dean’s. Normally, I would never read it myself.
I think we can see there the painful mental contortions of the Scoddish BritNat and it’s not pretty to read. I never saw the FM as a dementor/deatheater type myself (although I’m not an expert on Jaikie’s work) but in Effie’s world she’s wreaking huge mental damage on the Scottish people.
What do you get when you combine The Cringe with a persistent delusional denial of reality? Not sure what you call that condition.
Some of the btl comments were a hoot, though.
Isn’t it time for the Emeritus History Woman to parp out some trenchant apercus?
Yesindyref2
Like many on here who have the T-shirt the reality of this is a nightmare.
You could get 30percent of the total vote or 60 percent
Therefore stand two candidates and they could get 15 or 30 percent each of first preference vote.
That is IF you can somehow get each ward to balance a 1/2 candidate order order in one ward and in another ward a 2/1 order it will be an even balance at this stage for the SNP BUT if the Tories have only one candidate he could be in the lead.
Many variables and a lot of guess work before you even get to transferable voting. It is worth discussion because it needs a significant amount of organisational work to manage. We need to share what works and judge when we can risk going for an extra candidate and when we should focus on two.
We have many,many people with more experience than me on this topic and I hope they contribute to the debate.
re Effie Deans – what’s she got against Aberdeenshire?
re the BBC not showing the Scottish football team in an international match. What is that all about? I’m not interested in football but many people are. Should the national broadcaster not broadcast these matches? What is BBC Scotland for?
@Clootie 5.35
Having worked STV for years there are three simple rules
1. Do a careful canvass and know where your voters are
2. Figure out how many quotas you have in the constituency – aim for 90/95% of a quota based on a normal turnout – and then balance the 1’s , 2’s and 3’s between candidates to ensure the elimination of any one candidate brings in the rest – emphasise the importance of following the pattern in a second canvass of your own voters
3. Make sure you get your vote out on the day
“Ne’er cast a cloot, till the May is oot”.
Someone shove her back in. Please.
“Effie Deans'”. Apologies.
MTS: K1 @4.40. Your comments cheered me up, although I still fear the stupid vindictiveness and duplicity of the Establishment.
They’ll have to go some to outsmart NS and Mr Verhofstadt, though. Can’t see that happening.
In for a cup of tea before using my cat’s eyes to see in the dark and fill the brown bins. She’s very good. Refuses to use the rake all the same.
The EC refer to the ERS, which means the EC considers them to be accurate.
http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/single-transferable-vote
It says something about a model there: “Electoral Reform Society (includes a model election outlining the various stages of an STV count) http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk” which I can’t find, just a load of waffle and overall statistics from Curtice which I read (scanned) before sad person I am.
Oh, here it is:
http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/sites/default/files/What-is-STV.pdf
I’ll have a look when the cat gets fed up – or wants to be.
@Capella –
It’s intolerable.
Why on earth the SG doesn’t kick up fuck about this? I’ll never ever understand. The Culture/Education Committee should get a grip – they’ve an open goal.
Could some of you brighter ones help me out and tell me it would not be possible for May to dissolve the Scottish Parliament at the same time as having a hard Brexit. I have heard this suggested and it is giving me nightmares.
How could we take any action without our Parliament? Would we be left at the mercy of Fluffy Mundell ?
Brilliant, but not funny like all your previous illustrations. Disturbing in the thoughts that it provokes.
Have we gone through the looking glass?
Well done.
@Clootie
Jings, that pamphlet has a mistake already and I haven’t finished. After the first stage, and the reallocataion of the surplus, but before Pearson is excluded, there is a check to see if any other candidate has reached the quota. None has, but the leaflet should have stated that. It missed out a step. D’ya think I should tell ’em?
Sheesh, that example is actually very badly done, as it doesn’t describe how surpluses are transferred after the second winner if needed because it set it up tht the surplus would make no difference. Poor work, must do better. Wonder if it was Curtice, he’s a bit of a slacker.
Basically though it does look like I’m wrong, as elected candidates keep a hold of their quota, and the surplus is just proportionally reallocated to 2nd preferences.
So basically speaking our vote is used in principle not to elect 4 candidates, but just the one. That’s the purpose I think I had wrong, I thought we were electing as many candidates as there were seats with our choices, but we’re not.
So once our vote is used, then the rest of our ballot sheet is wasted.
Mmm, that might mean it makes no odds whether we leave further preferences blank – or give them to the person in the moon, as long as we’re voting for our own candidates to use up any surplus after the first one is elected.
Need food! It was too dark outside, oh, what a shame.
Ah, sorry, it does explain how the reduced preferences are transferred when it considers the first elimination. I never doubted Curtice, honest. Yeah, now I understand it, I’ll think again about that Green thing in 5th, 6th etc.
Key thing is that if your candidate is elected with 133.33% of the quota, the 33.33% surplus means your 2nd choice gets a value of 25% instead of 100% if your 1st choice was eliminated. And then it would be similary proportioned down to say 10% for your 3rd choice after your 2nd choice is elected. Why didn’t they just say so?
I’ll shut up now.
O/T Just noticed in the National that 3 of our (SNP) MPs were in Germany this week talking to one of Merkel’s most trusted advisers (chief of the German Chancellery), plus the Minister of State for Europe, plus representatives from the Federation of Business and the Institute for International and Security Affairs.
That sounds very interesting, but didn’t hear a peep from BBC ‘Scotland’.
yesindyref2@8:37pm
…all you need to do now is put that on a flyer and get every voter to read it 🙂
yesindyref2@8:37pm
…all you need to do now is put that on a flyer and get every voter to read it 🙂
Cardigan Enright@7:15pm
I agree
@Clootie
Yeah. Problem is I still stand by my original. If you put all the SNP candidates in the top positions, then the preference after that definitely doesn’t even get looked at until after all your top SNP choices are either elected, or eliminated.
Your ballot paper sits in the actual pile for each candidate in order, until they’re elected or eliminated, only then is the next preference down even looked at or used, whether SNP, Green or say Independent.
The problem is more with which of the SNP candidates to put 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, as far as I can see. Your ballot paper sits in only one pile at a time, the one for the highest preference candidate still in the running. That’s where the quota problem comes in.
In other words for a 4 seat ward with 3 SNP candidates, there’s no harm in putting SNP, SNP, SNP, Green, Green.
@ Liz g, “Halfway doon Robertson Street” is an expression I’ve not heard for years. I thought it meant not the full shilling?
Every day I wake up and think, that’s one less day I will have to experience an Independent Scotland.
Let’s make sure this time we make right, what is wrong.
Looks like the permanent no show of any Scottish international sport is a blessing. Thank you very much BBC Scotland gimps, you really earned the black out of Scotland’s sports bucks tonight.
Not showing Murray in Beijing’s either. What a weird region the BBC owns right now.
http://www.andymurray.com/
Rock. The question you ask Robert Peffers suggests a low level understanding of what independence is actually about.
We cannot steal independence, but nor can ‘they'(mostly the treasury) hide the levers of power.
The Union (current default owner of everything) must be dissolved to allow ‘them’ to hand over ALL the keys AND ALL the accounts.
@One_Scot
Every day I wake up and think, that’s one less day I will have to experience a toxic xenophobic Tory Union!
Its interesting how Scotland wasn’t consider worthy of this option on The Vow Delivered fraud 2015, especially by Britnat Graun tory reportagerising. They’re such a bunch of toryboys that crew.
http://archive.is/GLNLo
The Observer
PM should let public vote on Brexit terms, says author of article 50
Lord Kerr says Theresa May has caused consternation across Europe by signalling desire for hard Brexit at Tory party conference”
Well its interesting to me:D
Capella says:
8 October, 2016 at 7:13 pm
re Effie Deans – what’s she got against Aberdeenshire?
Its not in Surrey, where the best Britnats ever live.
Fred @ 9.38
I was just getting at a bit of a nonsense/nostalgic conversation that had gone on last night on Off Topic.
Halfway Down Robertson Street….is a jingo for an old advert and I couldn’t remember what was actually being advertised.
Just as an FYI….. David finally settled it..,It was Robertson Street Cash and Carry in Glasgow.
Bet you don’t need told where you would have found it?
Whatever happened to
Ian Murray Retweeted
Scottish Fabians ?@ScottishFabians 5h5 hours ago
At #ScotFab @IanMurrayMP, closes highlighting Labour needs to provide Scots with an alternative brexit which isn’t nationalism or xenophobia
So Scotland were shite once again, same old same old… Another Scottish campaign for the World Cup/Euros dies before it barely begins… FFS!
The blame, ultimately, lies with Scotland’s fucking useless FA. If a footballing-giant country like Germany can start again after a poor (for them) campaign ‘during’ an unsuccessful Euro Championship finals leading to the powerhouse they are today, and a country like Iceland, with a population of approximately 332,000, can run a successful programme of improving their youngsters’ ability and tactics leading to the elevated level of their international team now… why the fuck can Scotland’s FA not do something similar? But no, they prefer sitting on their arses while Scotland’s footballing reputation continues to plunge to laughable levels. They’re a bunch of useless blazers, happy to pocket the cash while doing SFA [sic] for the sport they are supposed to represent or improving the lot of Scotland’s youngsters or the Scottish game in general. Pathetic, rubbish and useless. They should be fired, the hopeless bloody lot of them.
I truly believe Scotland’s international football standing will only improve when Scotland is independent. With independence will come a desire from Scotland’s people for improvement in all walks of life, including our footballing reputation. Get the useless blazers out of the SFA and get people in who care.
BBC1 – so basically after the 3 “home” nations intro, the scores are:
England – 1 minute and 40 seconds
Scotland – 19 seconds
Lowly NI – 14 seconds
Ealasaid,
I believe that Westminster does have the power to dissolve the Scottish Parliament.
We operate under devolved power, and as someone once said “Power devolved is power retained”.
Mind you I don’t think that it would be a smart move. If they wanted to start a revolution that would be a great way to set it up.
However they are also ignorant and uncaring of the situation in Scotland, so who knows what they will do?
And, what kind of FA says it’s okay, or at least have nothing to say about the fucking disgrace that is Scotland’s population being denied seeing their international team on terrestrial television, almost each and every time (not everyone has Sky)?
And to rub it in, we get England to watch on terrestrial, or Sky- almost each and every time?
Utterly shameful.
The unionist Britnat TV channels and their owners must be laughing up their Union Jack sleeves…
@ Fireproofjim
Thanks for the reply. I dropped an email to my MP (Joanna Cherry) saying that I hoped the SNP had a contingency plan for such and event, unlikely as it may seem. We have to get out of this Union ASAP.
Glamaig @8.58
Not only did the BBC ignore the visit of the SNP delegates to Germany to meet with important politicians, they also omitted to mention that Nicola was in Iceland to address the conference of Arctic nations.
Mind you whenever Ruth scratches her nose it is all over the News.
Two days ago the BBC online, Scotland, had three separate features about her on the same day.
It was ever thus.
To think I once believed in the impartiality of the BBC.
@Fireproofjim
If Westminster did dissolve the Scottish Parliament, voted for in an official referendum in 1997, to the tune of 74.6% YES, 25.4% NO, TheSNP has a vast majority of Scottish MPs at Westminster, and with the SNP being the Government at Holyrood, that WOULD be cause for going for UDI, as long as the Green Party went along with it (or abstained).
It’s one of the very few situations I’d support UDI, the other being if Westminster refused to “grant” a referendum request passed by Holyrood.
They’re all wanting a Brexit vote now. SNP even get a rancid mention too, one word and behind everyone else, including Clegg Libs with half a dozen MP’s and Caroline Lucas Greens with one Westminster MP. They begged, pleaded, threatened and terrorised and begged Scotland to stay in their UK, then black out any mention of any MP we voted for. How frightfully British of them.
http://archive.is/qaarJ
Ealasaid,
OT
Joanne is also my MP. A splendid person and an example to us all.
TV rights are owned by UEFA.. Scotland doesnt have enough clout to ensure contract given to any terrestrial station..if any even tendered for it of course.
Fireproofjim says at 11:04 pm
“Ealasaid, I believe that Westminster does have the power to dissolve the Scottish Parliament.”
Let Westminster dissolve Holyrood, eyes have been opened by Amber “Nazi B**tard” Rudd.
F**K off our Parliament would you?
Your Parliament is fallin’ doon and you need Millions to rebuild it (bet EU would have given you a grant to restore an historic building if you hadn’t been a bunch o’ Neo-Facist c*nts)
😉
@Rock says: 8 October, 2016 at 6:51 pm:
” … If the current Scottish parliament voted by a majority vote for independence, is there any SCOTTISH LAW that would make it ILLEGAL?
If there is, which one?”
You just don’t get what sovereignty actually means, Rock.
I’ll try a different way to explain it for you.
Originally the general belief in God was the basis of all law. Mind you there were countless different Gods throughout the World. However, the point of all Gods was/is the belief that they are superior beings who rule over we mere humans.
Obviously the basis of Gods is that we just have to believe in them or they become just like the guy in,”The Wizard of Oz”.
So there has always been laws, (Commandments), the people had to obey or there could be no society. From that came the idea of, “Divine Right of Kings”, and the belief that Monarchs were chosen by their birth and they were God’s representatives on Earth and that is the way it is today.
If you imagine me wrong, then consider this – The Monarch is crowned and swears allegiance to God, Members of both the Lords and commons swear allegiance to the Monarch.
So sovereignty is the God Given right to Rule and English Law is based upon the Monarchy being sovereign but in 1688 the Parliament of the, (three country), Kingdom of England laid down the terms under which they invited King Billy & Queen Mary were offered the throne. That was they had to, “delegate”, their Royal powers to Parliament.
Their idea being that, as the royal powers were, “Divine, (God Given), Right”, they could not go against Gods wishes by taking away their God Given right to rule.
That left the monarchy still legally sovereign but with the parliament being the real power but as Scotland in 1688 was still an independent Kingdom even if their monarch was the same guy as wore the Crown of England. So obviously English law could not apply in Scotland.
It Scotland’s case things changed long before they did in the English Kingdom. The King of England had been asked to help sort out the Scottish monarchy after the Maid of Norway died and, being still a child, there was no heir to pass the crown to. The Englander saw his main chance and chose a weakling that he could manipulate to be Scotland’s king, John Balliol. He didn’t last long as King and Scotland was again without a monarch. The two main candidates were The Red Comyn and Robert Bruce.
Then things got out of hand. The two met to discuss things on consecrated ground, (The alter steps of Dumfries Kirk). No one actually knows what happened but the upshot was Bruce killed the Comyn. Now it may well have been in self defence but again the Englander saw his chance and egged on the international authority of the time, (The Pope), to call Bruce a murdered but worse to have done so on concecrated ground and Bruce, now the King of Scotland, was excommunicated.
However, as the laws of almost all Christendom was Divine Right of Kings, the Pope applied that to Scotland. The thing was that a King, under Divine Right, owns everything including their subjects and thus all Scots were excommunicated. The Pope also decreed that every church service in England should begin by cursing Scotland and that was when the clever Scots wrote to the Pope, “The Declaration of Arbroath”.
It not only declared Scotland was an independent Kingdom but that her people were sovereign, (God Given right to rule), and that there was no King of Scotland – only a King of Scots who the Sovereign People of Scotland, not God, chose to defend the sovereign people of Scotland’s sovereignty. (And who they could sack if they so chose)
Meanwhile the Pope and the King of England had fallen out because the King of England was not only killing off his many wives but divorcing some of them too and as the Pope ruled that, “What God has put together no man could break apart”. Then the English King declared himself head of the church of England. So the Pope accepted the Declaration of Arbroath and that became the basis of Scots law.
So when it came to the Treaty of Union the two legal systems could not be reconciled and that is why it was agreed that Scots law be independent of English Law in perpetuity.
The point was that, because the English parliament feared a Monarch of England, (Rather that an English Monarch), might make England whatever nationality that monarch was, (mainly German), they might give away their sovereignty to form England as part of that foreign kingdom. They made a legal judgement that a sovereign, just by being sovereign, could not renounce the sovereignty of the kingdom but could only abdicate it. That is if the monarch resigned the crown immediately passed to the next royal in line.
This meant that the laws of Scotland and the laws of England could not co-exist and that is why the Treaty of union agreed Scots law be forever independent and because the people of Scotland are sovereign then it is obvious they cannot give away their kingdom’s sovereignty.
In effect the English were hoist with their own petard.
So there you go – if the people of Scotland are legally sovereign then their word is law. It really is as simple as that. To date, though, the people of Scotland have never been formally asked to give up their legal sovereignty but if our elected representatives get a mandate, and they have, then they have the power of the legally sovereign people of Scotland to do whatever it is they were mandated to do.
I hope that might clear things up for you but I’m not going to hold my breath.
:-))
@Robert Peffers –
You have the patience of a saint.
*RESPECT*
Yup, SH doing its bit: “To investigate just how bad Scotland’s trains are for commuters, in the last week the Sunday Herald rode some of what ”
Let’s take a look at that
“To investigate just how bad ”
not “To investigate the situation”
So go in with a pre-conceived notion, and prove it. Good stuff.
This in a week of toxic Tories and rampant Tory Xenophobia.
… and the forthcoming repeal of the Communites Act 1972.
Buy that for a dollar? I haven’t bought it since the one issue it came out for Indy, and I think one special edition that had something good to say for Indy.
Bah humbug.
It’s not only the folk here who are unsure whither the UK Gov are heading, it seems. There are rumours surfacing that the Tory Cabinet is split over “hard” or “soft” Brexit. Presumably the city bankers can see hardball looming with the EU and their financial “passporting” goin’ doon the cludgie, and are accordingly lobbying their chums in the (Privileged) People’s Party. So it’s round the Euroloop for the Tories one more time.
As someone already pointed out, the emerged mayfly has a very short life. So the cartoon may be even more apt than possibly originally envisioned!
Robert Peffers & Rock
The dumb version of your conversation I just posted over on Strange Times.
Sorry Robert I didn’t know that you were already answering.
Sorry Rock I had only just saw you had asked me about the Soverenty thing. I wasn’t ignoring you.
Robert Peffers, when this is all done and dusted I’d love to meet you and shake your hand 🙂
@Robert J. Sutherland
Much as I want Indy and have for over 40 years, I don’t want May and her rancid lot in charge of our friends, family or even just neigbours, in the rest of the UK, even if we do manage to escape quickly. They don’t deserve it, even if they did vote for it.
Sturgeon savages ‘reactionary’ Tories over ‘ugly rhetoric’ and ‘naked xenophobia’
http://archive.is/1wGWp
SNP anger at £1.3bn cost to replace Trident at Scots bases
http://archive.is/MeiW1
Worth reading.
https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2016/10/08/a-song-of-migration-wearescotland/comment-page-1/#comment-35450
Yesindyref2 @ 1.23
Totally agree, not only my family. But after many holidays in North Yorkshire.
Including a car accident when the people (English every last one ) could not have been more compassionate and brave.
I would have struggled to take away any of Scotland’s wealth from them in Indy Ref 1 , if I thought for one moment it would have benefited them.
Had this, while originally forced arrangement really been about the benefit of the people.
I could have lived with it.
Maybe regretted that it had happened because of the history of it,but moved on.
Not now.
My only hope.
Is that one day,instead of asking why we can’t take off the Scot’s all the things that we don’t have.
The question becomes we want that too … make it happen.
It is not unrealistic there it is right there,and you can’t and don’t get to say they have it only because we are paying for it anymore.
Do it that way!!!!
Robert Peffers says:
8 October, 2016 at 11:47 pm
@Rock says: 8 October, 2016 at 6:51 pm
Meanwhile the Pope and the King of England had fallen out because the King of England was not only killing off his many wives but divorcing some of them too and as the Pope ruled that, “What God has put together no man could break apart”. Then the English King declared himself head of the church of England. So the Pope accepted the Declaration of Arbroath and that became the basis of Scots law.
I think you are getting things mixed up Robert. It was Henry VIII who created the Church of England in the 1530s due to a fall out with Rome because of his many Divorces and “dying” wives. This had nothing to do with De Bruce and the 1320 Declaration.
In 1320, Edward II was monarch in England but was imprisoned by his wife (who was French) and her lover, backed by the English nobles due to his weakness and inability to rule his kingdom
The Bull of Excommunication was lifted just before Bruce died but he never heard it, as by the time it arrived in Scotland he was already dead.
Fran @ 2.17
While I can’t argue what you assert,mainly because the burden of proof is yours.
I do question what if anything this has to do with the legitimacy of the Declaration of Arbroth?
It either exists
Or it does not.
Which is it to be , in your worldview?
Are you willing to let the court of Session decide.
Ah….if not….why not…
Can ye no at least answer as to why Margaret Thatcher was of the opinion that Scotland didny need a Referendum she only needed to elect a majority of Independent minded MP’s????
Fran…… these are a few of my favourite…thi….em … actual well em questions.
Fran, you are correct in the main, not exactly sure about Roberts’s angle though. King V pope..
EDWARDS 1+2 Of England..nasty types, and the Pope knew of the scheming court as ED1 died.
PLANTAGENET ELITISM WAS THE ORIGINAL MEGALOMANIAC, PATRICIDAL, GENOCIDAL CULT OF MURDERERS..
I am curious to learn how the swearing in of MSP’s squares “….. do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, Her Heirs and Successors, according to Law. So help me God.” with Scottish sovereignty which is manifest in the Scottish people, and arguably secular by virtue of not being divine? (Let’s perhaps ignore the secular bit as an unnecessary complication).
Doesn’t this oath represent an obstacle for our Holyrood MSP’s to cite their empowerment by Scottish sovereignty, when this oath they all swear ostensibly recognises a sovereignty superior to Scottish sovereignty? Doesn’t this oath in fact constitute an actual denial of Scottish sovereignty?
Even to change the oath. Is it practicable to “un-swear” an oath, and yet retain the competence of the position you have been elected to serve? Wouldn’t the office require re-election, or more correctly plain first time election to a position of office consistent with Scottish sovereignty?
I know, this is pedantic, but I am concerned there is an awkward technicality here which could be used by Westminster to compromise the “presumed” capacity of our MSP’s to switch their allegiance to Scottish sovereignty and forsaking all others. At the very least, it seems they will face criticism as inconstant oath breakers and such things often have resonance in law.
I believe it is just a technicality, nothing more, but an important technicality upon which important issues might be swung. In specific terms, might not the Supreme Court throw out a case testing the issue of sovereignty if it was deemed that the office of a MSP was not ” properly” representative of that Scottish sovereignty?
Can we double check we have our shoelaces properly tied on the issue?
Tam Jardine wrote on 8 October, 2016 at 4:50 pm
“Just got a bbc response containing an apology for a factual error on BBC reporting Scotland. Once I gather myself up from the floor and come to I might be able to reproduce it here so all can bask. For the moment I need some smelling salts and a bucket of cold water.”
Ah hope oor Tam hizzny kicked the bucket due tae the shock.
Tam! ((((( TAM! ))))) Are you still with us?
Come back tae the light, Tam.
C’moan Tam, we demand the evidence.
(Rapidly taps both sides of Tam’s face)
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/going-postal–4#/
From an archived copy of Private Eye from 2004, this article (italics) is a small excerpt from a rather extensive spread explaining in great depth ‘how’ PFI came about under New Labour , ‘who’ the big players were and how it works in practice. As you can read for yourself below it was already common knowledge that PFI contracts were being sold on. In other words were being ‘off shored’.
http://drphilhammond.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/PFI-Report-Private-Eye-2004.pdf
So this article from the Herald today:
‘The scandal of Scottish PFI projects moved to tax havens’
http://archive.is/ywUcl
Is not only woefully out of date by over 12 years but seems to insinuate that this is a ‘Scottish’ ‘issue’ going by it’s headline?
Could some kind poster post this excerpt into the comments on that article, with the link to the original source? Maybe someone will get an education about the reality of PFI and where it all stems from?
Thanks 🙂
‘The Great PFI Sell-Off
Very recently, a new development has further shaken any confidence the public may have had in these most unpopular schemes. The consortia that developed the big PFI projects have been selling off their stakes to make more money to invest in more PFI deals.
Eye 1095 reported the sale by Carillion of its share in the lucrative PFI deal in one of the first hospitals built under PFI, Darent Valley in Kent. The price it got was £16.4m, four times its origlnal investrnent. The buyer was Barclays llK Infrastructure fi.rnd, with obviously close connections to Bardes
Bank Two issues later (1097) the Eye reported: “The extent of these sales has now reached staggering proportions. A private equrty group called Star Capital has acquired stakes in 25 PFI projects worth around £2bn Why this sudden rush? One reason is probably the ‘substantial shareholdings’ tax exemption in Gordon Brown’s 2002 Budget. This absolves companies selling shares in other companies in which they have at least a 10 percent stake from paying tax on any capital gains they make.”
Considering the huge capital gains the companies did make on these sales, this tax exemption was obviously a big incentive to other companies to flog off their PFI stakes. But there were also other reasons the international funds wanted to buy them. The PFI stakes gave the funds what they needed most a regular stream of income from British public authorities that cannot go bust. So while the PFI corporations made a hefty untaxed capital gain on the sale which they can invest in further PFI deals
The funds don’t advertise where they are registered and don’t publish detailed accounts. Many are set up as “limited partnerships” – a neat device which limits the investors’ risk in the projects and at the same time ensures that the funds don’t have to disclose who owns them. They are well and truly private ald much more so than the companies selling them the PFI stakes. They are private in the sense of “Private – Keep Out!”
They are also huge. Innisfree boasts £5.7bn in its four private equity funds. The money is funnelled into the funds by “managers” such as Hermes, Norwich Union and Henderson Global Investors. Included in this huge reservoir of wealth are majority stakes in the £450m Derby hospital PFI scheme and the £50m Birmingham schools PFI scheme. Bardays Private Equity has 30 projects with a capital value of more than £2bn. Managing these vast funds is no doubt made easier by the fact that two former members of the Tory government’s private finance panel Chris Elliot and David Lindsay, sit on the fund’s board.
In the same way Star Capital, which doesn’t disclose the PFI projects it has snapped up, is backed by the Royal Bank of Scotland, whose board is graced by Sir Steve Robson” former top privatiser in the treasury and still a member of PUK the privatised arrn of the former treasury task force. The City ranking for this operation can be measured by the fact that Star Capital’s chief executive Tony Mallin gets over £600,000 a year. So all these funds, their investors and advisers, do very well out of this Iatest fashion for flogging off PFI stakes.
But what about the people most affected by the PFI sales in the first place? One of the central arguments for PFI was that it Ieaves the public sector providing public services (like the I’iHS) and the private sector “doing what it does best”- ie owning and running buildings and services. But the recent fashion for selling stakes to private funds removes the PFI companies from any responsibility for ‘doing what it does best’.
Responsibility for running of the services, schools and hospitals, for instance, passes with the sale of the stakes from the contracting companies to mysterious and remote private funds. How interested are they in mending a leaking school roof or a hospital operating theatre?
For an answer, hark once more to Henderson Global fnvestors. It insists on “the ability of the management and board of the concession [PFI] company to ensure that its operating costs and the costs of plarned maintenance are managed in accordance with, or better than, the assumptions that the pwchase was made on”. or in other words, cut costs where possible. Moreover, “the portfolio should be actively managed to ensure that the performance of the investments are optimised, and all operational, financing, tax and accounting efficiencies are effectively identified and extracted”. In other words, milk the newly-bought PFI stake all you can.
The point is quite clear. The users of the assets consigned to PFI are even more distant from the people responsible for them than they were when the PFI deal was first made. It was bad enough when identifiable companies, registered and paying tax in Britain, owned and managed the assets. But now the owners and managers are hidden from public view, heaven lanows where.
There are signs in early 2004 (as this is written) that some senior civil servants who retain an element of responsibiliry for what they do, are growing worried about the consequences of PFI…’
Breeks @ 3.02
I think ye have just hit the nail on the head.
Disnt matter whit the oath actually says at this point , all that matters is that there are TWO.
For there to actually…. BE.. two….then they have to be different or logically there is no point.
While the oath is to The Queen Of The Scot’s,and it’s generally understood to be a pretty thing that makes us feel special,that isn’t really whit is going on.
The Monarch of Scotland is charged with the protection of our Soverenty, it’s her job….her only job…
So Breeks if and when we tell the guardian of our Sovereignty,the person protecting our MP’s,the ones we Lent our Soverenty to ,we now want something different ,
We demand they legislate from home, then the Queen of the Scot’s is not supposed to purr,but rather to guard our Soverenty and see it is applied.
If she doesn’t….well then…Here is the real Constutional Crises.
The most incompetent, ignoramouses are now in power in Westminster. The Tories committed electoral fraud in 31 constituencies. What is being done about it? It is like Thatcher Mark 2 but worse.The Tories are ruining the world economy. How could they possibly believe trade treaties with Australia (pop 25million) NZ (pop 5 million) and Canada (pop 35Million) ie 65 million could replace a 450million market. The Tories can’t count or read a balance sheet.
The £ has fallen making imports dearer putting up prices etc. The rest of the U.K. Imports more than it exports. There is a massive balance of payments deficit. The Tories deliberately fiddled the migration figures. Counting foreign students in and not counting in Brits who take EU countries citizenship to pay less tax eg in Spain, Portugal (no tax for ten years) etc.
The Tories have ruined the Oil & Gas sector taxing it at 60% to 80% when the price had fallen 75%. Losing Scotland £Billion and thousands of jobs? Untaxed fracked Gas is being imported from the US. Scotland could have had nearly full employment and more money to invest in renewables. Electric cars are 4 times cheaper to run.
The Tories are wasting £Billion on Hinkley Power station, HS2 and Trident. A complete waste of taxpayer’s money with more viable and sustainable alternatives. They plan to expand Heathrow. A disaster waiting to happen which will create traffic chaos. Traveller satisfaction is not even considered. Transport should be decentralised away from London chaos. With Brexit there will be less flights. Trident will be going it is obsolete and the US do not want it here, especially with Brexit. The Tory multimillionaires and their associates are taking £Billion of public money in consultancy,banking interest and fees etc. The English working class voted for Thatcher and now vote for May.
Thatcher secretly and illegally took all the Oil revenues and build up London S/E. The equivalent of a £300Billion fund. Building up Tilbury Docks and Canary Wharf etc. Deregulated banking and sold off the Building Societies, owned by their members. Sold off utilities now owned by foreign state companies. Causing higher unemployment in Scotland. Ruining the Scottish economy.
Blair and Brown’s illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion ruined the world economy and left the UK in massive debt. They caused the worse migrant crisis in Europe. The Tories are refusing to help but are emasculating the crisis. They are now recklessly trying to take the UK out of the EU, ruining the British economy. The UK is the most unequal place. The inequality started with Thatcher. The Non Dom tax evading Press and the Tory multimillionaires and their associates will continue to destroy the economy to line their pockets. Enough is never enough.
Vote SNP/SNP for self government/Independence for a fairer more prosperous society. Do not vote for any other Party ever. It is wasting your vote. Cancelling it out. Until something can be done for these obscure electoral system where the loser wins. The 3rd rate rejects regurgitate and reappear.
This system will trundle on until the Tories and the rest are defeated in the political system. Then another Unionist lot will be voted in to lne their pockets and ruin the UK economy. Corrupt since 1928. Westminster Unionists illegally hide their corruption under the Official Secrets Act.
Voting SNP can make a difference. In April 2017 it will be possible to stop sanctioning and starving vulnerable people. Vote SNP/SNP May 2017. Vote for Independence.
Also worth reading.
http://wingsoverscotland.com/weekend-sovereignty-for-dummies/
Yesindyref2 at 1115pm,
I agree. Despite their posturing, since the Scots Parliament was formed by a mandate from the people of Scotland (as you rightly point out), then Westminster never has and never will have the power to close it down. Only a vote of the people of Scotland could achieve that – and that ain’t going to happen.
Westminster authority over Scotland is mainly bluff and bluster. That is why David Cameron agreed to the first referendum. It wasn’t for nice reasons, but rather he knew that refusing such a democratic process in Scotland was not in his power. By agreeing to the referendum, with signing ceremony and all in Edinburgh, it hid his lack of authority on the matter, and helped perpetuate the myth of Westminster having a say in the matter.
So, when moronic unionists and the London worshipping media talk of Westminster ‘not allowing a referendum’, they are literally talking p*sh of the very highest order.
So, why did Alex Salmond go along with Davey boy agreeing to the referendum? Simple, it helped eliminate spurious, but time consuming, idiotic legal challenges by unionists, who don’t want to hear the democratic voice of Scots.
Wind the clock forward, and if the Scots Parliament decide on another referendum, then Theresa May can say no, stamp her feet, scream and shout, and all sorts, but it doesn’t make one jot of difference.
Besides, as I’ve always maintained, the entire premise of ‘getting permission’ to hold a referendum is just too stupid for words. A referendum is just a formal opinion poll, so why on earth you would ever need or for that matter, want, to somehow bestow such ‘permission’ is beyond me.
Lizg at 429 am,
You are correct. It matters not what a person says or asserts or does, the law is the law. In this case, Scots law, and the constitutional nature of Scots and Scotland.
Tae see oursels as ithers etc.
http://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/article/2026008/little-england-conceit-brexit-full-display?utm_source=&utm_medium=&utm_campaign=SCMPSocialNewsfeed
yesindyref2 says:
@Clootie
In other words for a 4 seat ward with 3 SNP candidates, there’s no harm in putting SNP, SNP, SNP, Green, Green.
true. except that in pretty much eery ward in scotland, the greens will be eliminated from the count well before any SNP candidate, ergo, if and once an SNP candidate is eleminated from the count, any 2nd,3rd or 4th preference vote for the green candidate wont be of any help to the already eliminated green candidate.
As you say, It wont do any harm but probably wont do much good either. It certainly isnt an issue falling out about as per Holyrood election.
the greens voting 1.green 2. snp etc, would however help the snp though.
in irvine recently, 400 out 1200 folk voted 1. SNP (sturgeons dad) 2. labour ?????
getting the message out for people not to vote for any unionist, as any preference in any ward anywhere in scotland is more important
more worrying is that all of the other parties in scotland already have their candidates in place. the delays announced by the snp mean that their candidate vetting process wont be over till well after xmas, possibly march.
we will hear a lot of whinging about this from members once this becomes general knowledge, it will cost us heavily
schrodingers cat at 9.20
Yes. I think the tactic has in part to be treating unionist councils and councillors as the final impediments to independence in order to trigger the extra support for the SNP at these local elections. We are facing a tactical unionist coalition which has very little to do with the affairs of the councils.
The result achieved by the LibDems at Culloden on Thursday which was entirely ridiculous means that the system currently in use is seriously flawed. In a by election to replace a single candidate in a multi candidate ward FPTP is probably more sensible.
Munguin has moved
https://munguin.wordpress.com/
Update your bookmarks.
bbc scotshire luvvies on this morning. The well known Katy Grant has the insight that RUK Home secretary Rudd was really just trying to get ukip votes when she spoke about keeping list of immigrants and didn’t really mean what she said that was obnoxious. That’s all right then. Grant also said last week on the BBC !! that we cannot have Scotland leaving the ruk union as 1 million Scots had said Leave ignoring the fact that the majority of Scotland wished to stay in the EU. She also chose to ignore that of the “Scots” over 1/2million were not Scots.
You can see why BBC Scotland hires her. No independent thinkers in journalism?
Our precious United Kingdom
How many times have we heard that pumped out, Cameron did it too and they say it as if they own it like when your parents were going out when you were a kid
“Don’t have people in and break our telly or wreck the house” they’d warn us
Scots Irish Welsh it’s not our UK it’s theirs and they keep telling us it is
So why do folk still have the funny idea that anything any of us say would ever count for anything when we’re only the kids to be told what to do
Why can’t Scottish Unionists learn to grow up into adults
Hamich 100 @ 9.43am….it’s outrageous that for years BBC Scotchmist has been allowing this Little England Imperialist to spout off her bigoted views in her haughty manner to a captive Scottish tax paying audience. She also has had the ‘Herald’ as a platform for her racist views about her domiciled country and the people who live here. Just another Brit Imperialist cuckoo in the Scottish nest. An economy version Jakey Rollinginit.
Shhh dont tell old Lizzy but she is not the Queen of Scotland if she want that title then she must be crowned as Queen Elizabeth the 1st of Scotland.
Bad advice by her English lords and sycophant court followers not to do a Scottish coronation.
I will not accept a figurehead from another state who will not take the Scottish crown and the responsibilities to the sovereignty of the people of Scotland that goes with it.
As a sovereign Scot i push for we sack her in indy Scotland unless there is a coronation that is my right as a sovereign Scot and my expectation of any monarch or state figurehead who wishes to wear our crown.
Frankly though i would rather we didnt have any parasites running about pretending they are divine or gods this is the 21st century after all,that King stuff was just a phase we went through when we were all a bit stupid.
Apologies…Hamish 100… not Hamich….sounds like Katy Grant!
Unionists are like passengers on the Titanic who continue to believe it is unsinkable while sneering at others getting into the lifeboats!
Liz 4:29
I see that Liz, but my reading of the situation is the monarch is “dispensable” under Scots law. Failure to perform leads to dismissal, and yes that’s a constitutional issue.
What I see is an elected representative swearing an oath of loyalty to the position of Scottish monarch, when that monarch subsequently defers before God. Doesn’t that render Scottish sovereignty beneath that monarch, thus beneath God in turn, and thus represent the actual denial of Scottish sovereignty which should not bow before any other?
If there is any occasion for an oath to be sworn, it should be the monarch swearing an oath of fealty to the sovereignty of the Scottish people. Shouldn’t it?
Whether that happens or not I see as an internal matter for a sovereign Scotland. It does not give any purchase in establishing the separate and distinct identity of Scottish sovereignty, which is a legal benchmark, and needs to be addressed in such terms.
Either we Scots possess a popular sovereignty enshrined in all of us back in the 14th Century, or we don’t. Our sovereignty was recognised internationally, quite literally so in the Declaration of Arbroath, and legally competent for centuries before the Act of Union which by its own hand assumed control over our sovereignty. Valid by what authority? Meek acquiescence?
For 300 years, Scotland has existed with its true sovereignty held hostage in the towers of Westminster, and accepted subordination under English sovereignty. Dress that up however you like but it’s true. The price of peace and prosperity beside our powerful and pugnacious neighbour was to accept such constraints, and allow our true sovereignty to lie dormant. And we have remained thus for over 3 centuries.
Fast forward to the establishment of the devolved Scottish parliament. Yes , I agree, for the first time in 300 years, Scotland had a political legislature sitting in Scotland and handling Scottish affairs, but when Winnie Ewing reconvened the Scottish Parliament, isn’t it true that Scottish sovereignty was conspicuous by its absence in all the pomp and ceremony?
Holyrood is built with the same machinery as Westminster. It acts subordinate to a Monarch, who is in turn subordinate to God. That is the mechanism of English sovereignty which we have adopted. It is not, at least not yet, the resurrection to proper authority of true Scottish sovereignty.
I know, that means that having sovereignty and having independence are the same thing, (Yes! The point of enlightenment!), but the collolory of that also means there is no Scottish sovereignty in Scotland’s Holyrood – not yet at least. We need to be very careful in running ahead of ourselves presuming that there is.
The sweet irony is, it is this only this Westminster’s Holyrood which would require to declare itself Independent with a UDI. For Scotland to roll forward a true sovereign Scottish parliament, something which has lain dormant for 309 years, requires only that it be recognised.
No Unilateral Declaration of Independence, but instead, Multilateral Recognition of Scotland’s formerly dormant sovereignty.
Now isn’t that the truth of it?
@Liz g says: 9 October, 2016 at 1:01 am:
“Sorry Robert I didn’t know that you were already answering.
Sorry Rock I had only just saw you had asked me about the Soverenty thing. I wasn’t ignoring you.”
My fault, Liz g. I’m rewiring my home network just now and it means I’m only dipping into Wings at meal breaks and rest periods. Thus my answers were probably rather late.
(Just a thought) – Rock is not alone in not quite getting what sovereignty means.
It seems like the entire Westminster Establishment of unionists are determined not to allow themselves to understand it either. Not even as it affects English law by that court ruling that sovereigns cannot legally give away the kingdoms sovereignty.
The fact that Scots are legally sovereign means, if properly handled, no one can prevent us from simply telling the Union that the deal is off.
If our elected, (delegated), representatives have a clear mandate from the legally sovereign people of Scotland then there really is nothing any other country, state or kingdom can legally do about it.
Put it this way, the Treaty of union was actually forced upon the people of Scotland against their will but in those days the people who represented Scotland in the Scottish parliament were not elected by the majority of the people of Scotland – (not then enfranchised).
So Scotland was taken into the Union by the selfish interests of the landed gentry and church leaders who were either bribed, physically threatened or blackmailed by the English Kingdom’s Establishment.
I cannot find any event in our history where our legal sovereignty has been given away. Indeed fairly recent legal judgements have established a precedent in Scottish law that Scots are still legally sovereign.
For example the reason there can be no English style law of trespass in Scotland is due to the people, and not the crown, being sovereign. Sovereign means the people legally own Scotland and you cannot charge the legal owners for trespassing anywhere.
Prince Charles attempted to prevent people from crossing the Queen’s Balmoral estate by Right of way paths. His court action failed. Scots law means he could only charge legally claim damages from them if they damaged anything or could prevent them from invading the estate’s privacy and the rights of way were well clear of the residence.
Ann Gloag, who owns the Stagecoach company along with her brother, Brian Souter, attempted to stop people walking on her estate. The court ruled that she could not do so but granted permission to prevent people from the immediate area around the house.
The courts also ruled that it is illegal to clamp, or two away vehicles parked on private land in Scotland then demand payment to release the vehicles. Doing so was described as demanding money with menace and that is classed as, “Coercion”, (and not Blackmail), in Scotland.
So in Scotland the clamper is the criminal not the parker.
All these prove that the people of Scotland are still legally sovereign and legally thus own Scotland and if we own Scotland then we have legal right to NOT be in a union we deem unfair to Scots and Scotland.
And this might be one mayfly who got her timing wrong.
http://archive.is/z8AwL
Stoker
OK- so I have finally come round. As I indicated yesterday I finally got my BBC response with an actual apology to a complaint submitted about 6 weeks ago.
YOUR COMPLAINT:
Complaint Summary: Reporting of GERS figures
Full Complaint: Jackie Bird presented the summary headline on Wednesday 24th August on the evening Reporting Scotland as follows: “The Scottish Government is spending nearly £15 billion more than it’s bringing in in tax. In percentage terms it means the deficit here has climbed to more than twice the level of the UK as a whole.”
Where to start? This is factually wrong on two counts but even so it is presented as fact. For the state broadcaster to present information so inaccurate is inexcusable.
The Scottish Government explicitly does not spend £15 billion more than it brings in in tax. The Scottish Government actually raised £16.14 billion in tax and spent £40.54 billion according to GERS. Of course £37.61 billion of the tax generated in Scotland is controlled and collected by the UK government (and the Scottish Government has no control over). Just as it has no control over the £28.04 billion spent across the UK “on our behalf” by Westminster.
Presenting the GERS figures as being the sole responsibility of the Scottish Government in this way is completely wrong. Does the Scottish Government spend £3030 million a year on defence? Does it spend money servicing the UK debt? Does it raise money through corporation tax or fuel duty?
The way the GERS figures are presented by the BBC is that they are a failure for the Scottish Government when the economy of Scotland is controlled by Westminster. According to the BBC’s own website Westminster has responsibility for “UK economic and monetary policy (other than Scotland’s tax-varying power)”.
Whatever flannel (I get semantic rubbish every time I complain to the BBC) this statement is factually wrong and I would expect the state broadcaster to be able to present a headline statement on the important subject of GERS that AT THE VERY LEAST is not complete nonsense.
Secondly, Scotland has no deficit, just as England, Wales and Northern Ireland have no deficit. The UK has a deficit. GERS simply provides an estimate of public accounts.
******
So in the spirit of the BBC I will present their response in a completely truncated, edited headline and remove all the rest of their remarks:
“You correctly quote us as saying “The Scottish Government is spending (etc.) …” We should, in fact, have been using the term “Government in Scotland (etc.) …” or some such phrase. I apologise for the fact that we did not”
Stoker
Here is their response in full:
Dear Mr Jardine
Reference CAS-3985745-RD2DN5
Thank you for your correspondence and I am sorry it has taken this length of time to reply. Your comments were passed to the Editor of Reporting Scotland, who has asked that I forward his response as follows:
“Thank you for being in touch about the teatime edition on 24th August.
The GERS reports are produced by Scottish Government statisticians and therefore the graphics were correctly sourced as being “Scottish Government statistics”. You correctly quote us as saying “The Scottish Government is spending (etc.) …” We should, in fact, have been using the term “Government in Scotland (etc.) …” or some such phrase. I apologise for the fact that we did not, but I can assure you there was no intention to mislead anyone. We said on air that Scots paid £54-Bn in tax while nearly £69-Bn was spent on Scotland by national and local governments, which is correct and which I think would put to rest any doubts that anyone might harbour as a result as the form of words used in the introduction.
You say that we present the GERS figures as “a failure for the Scottish Government”. I reiterate that the figures come from the Scottish Government and are compiled by its own officials. It is their figures that form the basis of our reports.
You say twice that we are “the state broadcaster”. That is not correct. The first Director General, John C.W. Reith, made that abundantly clear during the General Strike ninety years ago, and the BBC’s position has not changed since, nor is it ever likely to.
On ‘deficit’ we had a graphic which said “Deficit, as share of output”. The UK and Scottish figures are as supplied by the GERS report in a section in the summary called ‘Scotland’s Overall Fiscal Position”, with tables for the current budget balance and the net fiscal balance. A note explains that “”excluding North Sea revenue, the current budget balance for Scotland tends to move in line with the figure for the UK, although the deficit in Scotland is typically six to seven points larger.” It then explains that the net fiscal balance includes public sector capital investment: it is that table (S.6) that produced the statistics we used for Scotland and the UK – the net fiscal balance as a percentage of GDP being, respectively, -9.5% and -4.0% (the comparative figures for current budget balance are -8.1% and -2.2%).
Thank you again for being in touch.”
Kind regards
Stuart Webb
BBC Complaints Team
@Breeks says: 9 October, 2016 at 3:02 am:
“I am curious to learn how the swearing in of MSP’s squares “….. do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, Her Heirs and Successors, according to Law. So help me God.” with Scottish sovereignty”
In the first place Scottish MPs have the choice of whether to take the oath or choose to, “affirm” their loyalty. thus :-
In the second place note it says, “I affirm”, and is thus their own personal loyalty to the Queen but can not supersede their loyalty to the sovereign people of Scotland.
Which loyalty legally takes precedence under Scottish Law and which, under English law, A sovereign, (and the Scots MP is a delegate of the sovereign people of Scotland), cannot give away the sovereignty of their kingdom.
Where do you get this, “secular”, bit from, Breeks? The rule of the people of Scotland was made by the Pope in 1320 and the Pope was/is Gods prime representative on Earth over all royals and thus over the civic governments that superceded them as Divine right was abandoned by republics.
” … Doesn’t this oath represent an obstacle for our Holyrood MSP’s to cite their empowerment by Scottish sovereignty”
No. The oath or affirmations all begin with the term, “I swear”, or, “I affirm”, and are thus their personal oath or affirmation. None of them have ever asked for a mandate of the sovereign people for it to be otherwise.
Furthermore it would not be legal for them to do so under English law, (which Westminster legislates by), as there is precedent under English law that a sovereign, just by being sovereign, cannot give away the kingdom’s sovereignty but can only abdicate it to the next in line to the throne.
@breeks: Who said:-
” … In specific terms, might not the Supreme Court throw out a case testing the issue of sovereignty if it was deemed that the office of a MSP was not ” properly” representative of that Scottish sovereignty?”
A point worth considering but –
In the first place, “The Treaty of Union”, categorically states that Scots law must remain independent in perpetuity and thus the so called supreme court is illegal.
In the second place Westminster legislates under England law with little additional bits to apply to Scottish law at the end of acts where there are legal differences but under English law there are precedents that state, (I paraphrase here, “A sovereign, just by being sovereign, cannot give up the kingdom’s sovereignty but can only abdicate the throne to the next legal sovereign person in line.
Furthermore, as equally sovereign partners in the United Kingdom neither kingdom’s sovereignty can overrule that of the other. It is a purely Westminster Establishment claim that the kingdom of England was renamed as the United Kingdom by the treaty and that only the Kingdom of Scotland was, “Extinguished”. There is neither legal nor textual proofs on any such actions anywhere to be found.
State figureheads hmmm could make a brilliant new TV show a lottery everyone`s numbers gets chucked in a hat get some famous folks to draw out a winner and hey presto you can be King for a month or Queen a Scottish quid a shot all money goes to a fund for the new King or Queen to spend on helping out charities and throwing big social events in the towns and cities lol
“Labour demands parliamentary vote on Theresa May’s ‘hard Brexit’ negotiation plan
The move could effectively sink plans to leave the single market”
Good to see Labour doing something useful for a change.
With Labour, SNP, others, Tory rebels, May’s plans would not get through WM.
Of course her plan is to avoid WM. Legal challenges might stop that too.
http://archive.is/WmCKV
Another day of SNP bad at the Graun, from Mackenna this time. Cant even be arsed with the old http://archive.is/
SNP bad, Willie Rennie to the rescue. This from a tory crew at the Graun and LibDems that produced an historic fraud like Alistair Carmicheal. And we all still gobble down deep fried scran, in good old rancid the Graun’s world Scptland region. There’s probably not much more titillating for tory Britnats than getting an obedient retainer Scotchman to insult other Scots.
“Are there any SNP members here who want to put a question of the government,” he asked.
“The government was represented on the panel by Derek Mackay, the recently appointed finance minister. To the surprise of no one in the room the silence of the grave rapidly descended. There were plenty of SNP members present but, as everyone in Scottish politics knows, any nationalists who valued a future in the party would rather go dooking for chips in a deep fat fryer than question its financial husbandry. Rennie’s interjection was timely and pertinent”
BBC Politics show for Sunday guests, Ligger Neil, Murdoch bootboy, Sunday Times, Daily Heil hacks and a New Statesman special guest. BBC balanced, impartial yada yada.
http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/sun-and-mail-named-in-european-commission-report-claiming-tabloids-push-hate-speech/
UKOK newsrooms we’re more than familiar with. The Liggers BBC Politics show today, and his tory press chums were really working away at explaining how May’s foreigner lists wasn’t serious and its probably impossible to even make lists of foreign workers, so chillax.
Ligger Neil and co didn’t mention local authorities writing to parents of school children this week with their demand to tell them if the children were foreigners or not. Its odd that Ligger Neil or his BBC production crew left this out of their daily party political broadcasts on behalf of planet torboy.
@ Liz 02.46
My post was not about the legal validity of the 1320 Declaration but the time scale in which it was framed. The Declaration is a corner stone of Scots Law but the silence from the Law Lords recently has been deafening. As far as I know there has been no challenge to Westminster over stepping its jurisdiction on Scots Law since 1953 when the Lord Advocate stated that Englands sovereignty laws were incompatible to Scots Law.
The abomination that is the UK Supreme Court will require attention from the Court of Season at some point in the future or they will be failing in their duties as the highest authority of Scots Law (in effect relegating themselves)
Scots Law is already internationally recognised especially with the trial of the Lockerbie bombers being conducted under Scots Law and not English Law(UK Law as some would have it seen)
During the reign of terror by Maggie I, there was no devolved parliament and the SNPs sent to Westminster was on a manifesto of independence. So a majority of Scots MPs were SNP then that would have been a signal that the people of Scotland wishing to dissolve the 1707 Treaty of Union (sovereignty of the people).The SNPs 2015 manifesto was not dissolution of the union but holding Westminster to account for promises made to the people of Scotland if they rejected independence in 2014. The constitutional arrangement has never been truly tested to see how the dice would land.
Whether we like it or not there is a game of thrones to be played and all we can do is hope that those who fight for our and Scotlands rights are masters of their trade.
Adam Tomkins so called expert on constitutional affairs disagrees with his own party live on the telly and tells us all that Theresa May doesn’t have the power to decide stuff and it must go to a vote in Westminster and nobody bats an eyelid, although to be fair his face was saying (But I’ll do what I’m told)
If a SNP MP or MSP had done that all hell would have broken loose
Fran: “The abomination that is the UK Supreme Court will require attention from the Court of Season at some point in the future or they will be failing in their duties as the highest authority of Scots Law (in effect relegating themselves)”
Seconded. And an excellent informative post.
Dave McEwan Hill says:
schrodingers cat
Yes. I think the tactic has in part to be treating unionist councils and councillors as the final impediments to independence in order to trigger the extra support for the SNP at these local elections.
agreed, although, i had thought to fight the CE’s on a ticket as a mandate for nicola to hold indyref2 but I think that she already has one.(regardless of the tactic deployed, a resounding victory for the snp will be interpreted as exactly that)
may announcing a50 button pushed at the end of march would seem that the unionists actually want the indyref2 faceoff arguement between nicola and may to take place in the middle of the CE campaign.
it is the fear of indyref2 which motivated the unionists(blue type) in HE to get out and vote. the red tories and the snp vote fell 30% from 2015.
1. May is struggling to press the brexit button. good. for every week past march it remains unpressed, the better it is for us. It will keep the uk msm diverted from the indyref2 debate and on the issue of brexit. not a comfortable position for the tories, see tompkins face this morning. It also increases the possibility for nicola to call indyref2 in spring 2019 (not saying she will mind you, autumn 2018 more likely, but it gives her the option of doing so)
2. the only tactic the snp need to deploy to win big in a council election is GOTV.
3. The scottish unionists are broke, when ce’s are happening all over the uk, they wont get financed to the same levels as the holyrood campaign by their london counter parts. Postmen delivering unionist leaflets will be few and far between
4. Busing up activists from down south wont happen either.
5. all the unionists will have is stv, bbc and the local unionist press, p&j, courier, herald and scotsman etc.
6. the snp have money and activists to get out their vote WITHOUT noising up the unionists. they have been told by the msm that ruthie has stopped the rot, saved the union etc and the snp wave is receding.
the councils are the last line of defence of the union and this may well be the last snp campaign before indy. after the CE’s we will become YES scotland again
Adam Tomkins looked like a man under siege on SP this morning.
Politics has been busy this week throwing up all sorts of curve balls to confound and unnerve the Yoons. They can no longer use the Nazi smear as not only does the Unionist party history contain real Nazi sympathizers but now they have unveiled big government authoritarian policies on a scale unheard of since, well, the 1930s.
Yoons who claim a specialised knowledge of history have seemed wilfully ignorant of the Tories’ murky past. The Nazi smear should now be binned but we know it is all they have.
Similarly the value of Sterling is now a political tool which can be used to batter the UK. The seemingly unassailable position of the Pound and the vulnerability of the Euro have swapped for the mean time. All economics projections are up in the air and with them, surely, the ‘black hole’ nonsense of an independent Scotland in Europe.
Thanks Robert Peffer, I feel a lot happier now.
The secular bit I knew was a risky thing to throw in, a bit tongue in cheek frankly, especially about a letter written by an Abbot to the Pope, but all I meant was Scottish sovereignty was not divine, but essentially what we might now call republican, and grounded in the flesh and blood of living people.
This level of discussion is what Scotland should have been immersed in back in 2014 in the run up to an informed referendum based upon the richest possible understanding of our constitutional heritage and rights, not the BBC bullshit and puppetry we did have to suffer. For me personally, it’s what it’s all about. I don’t understand those who would settle for less.
It seems the most ardent supporters of this hard Brexit thing got different ballot papers from the rest of us
Their ballot papers seem to have had the question
Do you hate immigrants …Yes or No.. or so they thought
And now the Mayfly Guv is implementing the Yes answer
It’s kinda no wonder the rest of the world is looking at the UK with distaste and squinty eyes
There are some folk I might hate if I knew them but how can anybody sign up to hating folk they don’t know (Total madness)
I just hope the EU don’t include Scotland into that decision when the chips finally fall on all this bitterness we didnae vote for
Iain Macwhirter: Support for Better Together’s ‘caring sharing’ UK has been fatally undermined
https://archive.is/RV5uh
Angela Haggerty: Snobby, sneering insults at Scots are on the rise – and so is xenophobia
https://archive.is/ozjT8
Grouse Beater says:
9 October, 2016 at 12:32 pm
Fran
Perhaps this helps
https://www.supremecourt.uk/news/new-powers-for-Scotlands-appeal-court-in-force-today.html
I think the Tory government has an elephant in the room. Trying to find the right way of phrasing this is difficult but bear with me. Many are of the opinion that England voted to keep out foreigners coming from the EU. I think the issue is much deeper.
I believe from what I am witnessing that the views of many Englanders goes well beyond excluding those incomers from the EU. I think it also includes those who have been born and bred in this country.
How do I evidence this? Brexit should have given them a sense of completion and yet racially motivated attacks are increasing, as is open voicing of racist sentiments.
I truly believe that if the momentum of this programme of Brexit is maintained then public pressure and the need to succumb to that pressure by the government could conceivably take us down a very dark road.
Can you imagine if a white supremacist group in the Deep South of America had persuaded the Federal government to take such actions as we have seen in the UK recently.
I fear for England and her future. We still have an escape plan
I think the Tories have opened the bottle and let the genie escape. Trying to coral it again will be much,much harder.
My Slovene girlfriend is a danger to Scottish democracy, as dangerous as any UKIPster, like Farage boosting Trump for Murdoch’s American version of BBC Politics show here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpGRoOTqkGk
Farage style fascism knows no depths but why is he on BBC tv so much, why are any of UKIP on tv so much, they’re on British tv and radio in exact proportion to how hard anyone SNP is excluded by the BBC.
Fox news is US hard core Conservative tv for Murdoch but last year Farage was on BBC Question explaining how 6000 foreigners are in the UK now, straight out of 30’s nazi propaganda catalogue. He should be tarred and feathered but instead he’s celebrated.
O/T
I discovered this, just by chance, nothing to do with Scotland, but interesting regards the yes, no sides, and what is happening in S.America.
http://www.telesurtv.net/english/section/news/index.html
Sorry, one more time for logic
Fox news is US hard core Conservative tv for Murdoch but last year Farage was on BBC Question explaining how 6000 foreigners with HIV are in the UK now, straight out of 30’s nazi propaganda catalogue. He should be tarred and feathered but instead he’s celebrated.
http://archive.is/yL9N9
As debate rivals and leftwingers savage Ukip chief for saying 60% of victims aren’t British… Did Farage get it right on HIV health tourists?”
A hideously, disturbingly accurate cartoon Chris.
Although I truly believe the establishments power over Scotland has been loosened beyond repair, I truly hope and pray that the cooncil political circus is cast off and a new honest democratic system evolves out of the ashes.
We need to erase the stain of the last decades of shame that these unionist self servers imposed on this we country as they filled their own pockets under the guise of honest men. Their game is up and a new and honest political structure will be required with honest sincere politicians, they will all be welcome. No charlatans whore masters or comic singers need apply, we tried them they don’t work.
Smash the last line, then it is rebuilding all the way with proper bricks, cement & sand. Nay mare cowboys or panhandlers, they will be run out of town. Honest persons only wanted!
@schrodingers cat
Indeed, it won’t do any harm, and would encourage greens to put SNP second.
But I think it would get some more green councillors in all around Scotland, perhaps also some independents, at the expense of Tory and Labour councillors.
I might look occasionally at the detailed stage breakdowns most councils provide, for 2012 to see if there’s any light! The SNP line though in 2012, at least in my area, was SNP 1 and 2 and leave the rest blank. I did that because since I hadn’t worked it out, I played safe.
Breeks @ 3.00 am
Re The Oath of Allegiance to which Sovereignty?
In the back of my memory, I think Nicola swore her Oath of Sovereignty to the Scottish People at the start of this new parliament. I know there were a couple of Gaelic,
Doric and Lallans Oaths as well.
Also, I think she may well have had to swear her oath to the Queen at the court of Sessions when she was confirmed as First Minister and of course when sworn into the Privy Council.
Can anyone else clarify?
PS:
https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/4000/nicola-sturgeon-swears-loyalty-to-the-people-before-the-monarchy
This article might shed some light.
Well done Andy Murray just heard he’s won!
@Fran says: 9 October, 2016 at 2:17 am:
“I think you are getting things mixed up Robert. It was Henry VIII who created the Church of England in the 1530s due to a fall out with Rome because of his many Divorces and “dying” wives. This had nothing to do with De Bruce and the 1320 Declaration.”
Nope, Fran. read it again.
I said, “meanwhile the Pope and the King of England had fallen out”, I’m talking history here and talking about the whole business between Scotland being left without a monarch and the signing of the Treaty of Independence.
Just for the record, (and because what I said obviously can be misconstrued), here is the part played by Henry VIII in the matter: –
Henry VIII, born 28 June 1491 and died on 28 January 1547 – Henry VIII was thus King of England from April 1509 until his death in 1547.
He it was who first of all declared himself, “Lord of Ireland”, before invoking Divine ?Right of Kings law and forcing the Irish Parliament to pass, “The Crown of Ireland Act”, that annexed Ireland to the English Kingdom.
He was thus the first King of England to be also King of both Wales & Ireland and that left Britain still with two independent Kingdoms.
A fact always disputed by England as their claims have always been that there was a union of the crowns in 1603. This belief was legally wrong because of the simple fact that Scotland had not been subject to the laws of, “Divine Right”, since the Pope accepted, “The Declaration of Arbroath”, in 1320.
The only two remaining British Kingdoms were still independent and the laws of them both prevented James I & VI from invoking Divine Right and tagging the other three countries of the English Kingdom onto, “His Scottish Kingdom”, because it wasn’t his Scottish Kingdom as Scottish monarchs were only Monarchs of Scots since 1320 made the people legally sovereign.
That’s the salient point. Fran. From 1320 the Divine Right to rule, (Sovereignty), legally and actually rested in the hands of the people of Scotland and it still does. So James did not have the hereditary Divine Right to rule Scotland but did inherit the right to rule England, Wales and Ireland. Can we blame him for moving to England were he was sovereign?
So my point is that Scotland was independent in 1n 1320, still independent in 1603, still independent in 1688 and thus could only legally go into a union with the three country Kingdom of England in 1706/7 as an equally sovereign kingdom and thus can in no way be extinguished as a Kingdom than can the Kingdom of England.
The In ion was in effect a forced marriage but a marriage of equals none the less. Like all marriages, (bipartite unions), upon divorce the status quo ante is for both partners to return to their pre-marriage status.
In other words they both become single again. Whoever heard of a divorce where the woman becomes single again but the man is still married to her? The idiocy of a still existing rUK is sheer madness.
@ legerwood 1.54
Thanks for the link, I will try and get my head around that later.
Back to my sanding
As long as a Scottish politician is careful to take an oath to the monarch in Scotland then it holds that punctuation is important. By that if the clause about her heirs is surrounded by commas then it’s solely about her legal position in Scotland which is as the embodiment of our sovereignty. Even if the according to law simply refers to her heirs it simply means that it’s implicit rather than explicit.
Arguably even taking the oath in Westminster does not permanently bind as if the monarch exceeds her authority she have broken faith.
Note that the coronation oath also includes the “according to law” bit which means she accepted the had no absolute sovereignty in Scotland.
All of which might lead one to conclude that Royal Prerogative is not something that exists in Scotland so no elected government can simply dictate without even a pretence of a parliamentary vote.
Tories already backtracking on naming and shaming firms that employ foreign workers.
This will disappoint the hard core Brexiteers. If Brexit does not meet with the expectations of the 52% who voted Brexit then expect a backlash.
Based on the Britnat mentality can the Scottish government identify the proportion and number and of English, Welsh etc working in the civil service, local authorities in senior positions.
Obviously such information can help planners to aid issues such as schooling, housing………
Dont like the idea britnat? Why? Surely what’s good for the goose…..
Who would want to be a britnat?
Scotland must remain in the EU or we could turn into them.
Lovely boost for Corbynista Labour in ferocious tory Herald, shock.
Vote NO JC’s giving a Scottish investment bank, whatever the fcuk that is
http://archive.is/nzsZ6
“In Scotland as well as all parts of the UK, people who were involved in various kinds of progressive trade unions and politics in the past have come back.”
The Labour leader and his closest ally John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, are planning to hold a Scottish summit in the coming months focussing on a Corbyn-led government’s specific economic and jobs policy for Scotland.
Corbyn made his overtures to independence supporters as he highlighted a plan to launch a Scottish investment bank aimed at creating full employment that would be devolved to Holyrood.
He said: “There has to be an investment-led economy and there has to be full employment for all. And you have to have a Scottish investment bank as part of it, so it will be with a very big investment in the Scottish economy.”
Rejoice.
Legerwood
Thank you for the English Supreme Court link.
I regard conditions required to engage the SC irrelevant. They’re just a form of whittling down the sovereignty of Scottish courts, and the rights of the population in Scotland. Unless resisted now, conditions will in time be removed, Scottish courts reduced to minor UK law.
Good old UKOK Westminster politics from JC,
“Corbyn said the investment bank would be a flagship policy of a Labour government led by him and would tackle inequality and social deprivation in areas such as Glasgow.
He added: “I strongly supported devolution, strongly supported a powerful Scottish Parliament and a powerful Scottish Government.”
JC voted NO to everything in the Scotland Bill/The Vow shyste and as UK Prime Minister and Vice President of CND, Scotland will he be his UK Trident 2 nuke weapon dump but will never push the Button.
@ Robert Peffers
I read it a couple of times before I posted, was thinking you were having a late night tipple.
The wording “meanwhile” which I took as “at the same time” and the sudden 200yr forward jump muddied your explanation.
Robert Peffers @ 10.39
Thanks for letting me know why you are not around sometimes,I do worry that you are ok.
I have answered a few questions directed at you and I am pretty sure that you won’t mind,because if I am reading you right , you won’t care who actually tries to explain Soverenty,just that someone does.
Also we have different approaches to it,while you are extremely accurate and detailed.
I come from the school of “if you can’t explain it to a 7yr old then you probably don’t understand it yourself”, so tend to oversimplify, while trusting that you would notice and step in if I was not being clear,so hopefully between us we are reaching a wider audience of Winger’s.
Especially new readers.
As someone else farther up the thread said,this is what the whole debate is and should be all about.IMHO.
I also wondered many times how much the “great and the good” in Westminster actually don’t really know how both these form of Soverenty work and how much they choose not to know.
And would like to know if you see Michael Forsythe as someone who not only understands soverenty but is trying to find a way to subvert ours.
As he seems to grasp the let’s pretend it’s not a thing approach won’t fly anymore?
Any thoughts?
Can someone on the twatter tell Ruthie buffalo rider that Arthur Donaldson was never charged let alone convicted of subversive activities during WW2 . They are upset that Mhairi Black MP likened the Tories to the Nazi’s and are coming out with the same old shite that the SNP were Nazi sympathisors during the War.
Seen on fb that an Irish person had to jump through Hoops to get their driving licence renewed as they were foreign. Sooner were out of this Union the better.
JC’s reign looks over already.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37602161
Two Labour MPs have resigned from the shadow whips’ office, just days after party leader Jeremy Corbyn reshuffled his front bench.
Please continue posting your comments, Robert Peffers and Liz g, about the sovereignty thing.
People need to know and understand it as it could be extremely important in the run up to Indy Ref2.
Thanks you two.
The BBC should try getting it right. Scotland raises £54Billion but the so called ‘Deficit’ is spent by Westminster on what it wants. Nearly £4Billion is spend on loan repayments on money borrowed and spent in the rest of the UK. Nearly £1Billion on Trident which could be better spent. £1Billion could be saved with a tax on loss leading drink. £4Billion+ a year is lost in Oil & Gas revenues because Westminster taxes the Oil sector at 60% to 80% when the price had fallen 75%. Losing £Billions and thousands of jobs because of Westminster mismanagement. £3Billion? Is lost in tax evasion. Whisky companies tax evade. Total £13Billion+
There are £10Billion of ‘non identified expenditure’ in the Scottish accounts. The reason accounts are done is to identify expenditure. False accounting. Scotland should have
control over raising and spending taxes. The ‘deficit’ could be cut over night. Untaxed fracked US Gas is being imported, putting up the balance of payments deficit and the debt.
Brexit is absolutely deplorable. Any Gov attempting to take the UK out of the EU is totally imcompetent. The Westminster controlled BBC is culpable. They should try getting it right.
Hey folks,
I’ve been getting seriously shouted down by the yoon Twitter army headed by the odioushistory woman. Accept the 2014 result they keep crying. People need reminded.
1- we accepted the 2014 result as much as we didn’t want to.
2- remain during the EUref told people if you vote leave the Scotland will have another indyref.
3- the SNP 2016 manifesto clearly said a material change like being dragged out the EU could trigger indyref2.
4- the leave voters knew all this info and voted as a whole UK to leave.
We have accepted am the results of both refurendums. It’s the yoons who aren’t respecting the will of the people. Don’t ever think us on YES are the ones who caused this. Hold the heads up high.
Ha! Ha! Ha!
I had a feeling about this. My very own ward in the council Elections 2012. 6 Candidates, 2 SNP, 1 Lab, 1 Con, 1 Ind, 1 SocLab. 4 seats. Order of election: SNP, SNP, Lab, Con.
Total wasted (no preference after the SNP) votes 121. If they – plus all the SNP voters who didn’t transfer to other parties (!!!) – it’s proportioned – had voted for the Independent as 3rd preference, the Independent would have got in with 13 votes over the quota at count 5, rather than the Conservative at round 6.
I am invincible!
heedtracker
So Labour think we are just waiting for an MP from Islington to offer something and we will all vote Labour.
I guess they missed we have an elected Government in Scotland and a strong proven leader in Nicola Sturgeon and have many plans fro developing the economy.
They also think we didn’t notice they voted against every amendment to devolve effective powers to Scotland put forward by the SNP MPs we elected, or that Labour put the very barest proposals into the now meaningless Smith Commission.
He didn’t notice Labour controlled Wales voted to leave the EU and Scotland by a huge majority voted to stay in the EU.
They haven’t grasped we don’t hate Westminster, we don’t want it running our country, we will do that ourselves. Not as a handout through devolved powers decided by some other countries MPs but by us.
We don’t want a country run by Tories most of the time.
A Party on the ropes says this is how we are going to let you have a bit of say in the country we will define, but first get us up of the ropes.
Breeks @ 10.29
I have never seen Holyrood as holding Scottish Soverenty.
For my interpretation of it,I view that our Soverenty is given by us at the general election to the Scottish MPs.
So in a way yes Holyrood is subordinate to Westminster.
The Monarchs role is different she is appointed by us to guard our Soverenty.
It’s the right to appoint a sovereign that comes from God.
That right was delegated to us from God in the 13th century and is forever.
And as I see it that’s the big problem for Westminster,cause if they say anything about God not having the authority to give the Scot’s that right….then they invalidate the right of God to have chosen the Windsor’s.
So when it comes to Scotland I pretty much don’t see a problem with oaths to God and his representatives because each time they do it they are confirming God’s authority.
Therefore if they are denying Scotland her Soverenty it’s God they need to take it up with! So to speak.
That’s where I was coming from when I was talking about oaths.
Ebay pay almost nothing on over a thousand million smackers they made in the UKOK zone this year, but paid less than one percent tax.
Neo fascist list taker and foreigner hunter tories say its bad.
“May flexes her muscles over tax avoidance
Extending fines from individuals to scheme promoters makes sense
FT View”
Slabour screaming for stuff like tuition fees for Scottish students but you probably need to see the face of a 21 year old grad opening his Student Loans Company statement for £30+k. It says things like, SLC monitors their earnings from their tax data given to them by HMRC. Tasty.
Its maybe just me but its a fairly safe bet that all the SLab gimps currently screaming for Scottish tuition fees probably got their degrees without any fees.
Scotland could have full employment without Westminster interference. Scotland can’t borrow but has to pay loan repayments on a rest of the UK deficit. Yet can’t borrow to spend on the Scottish economy. Westminster reduced the CAP payments from the EU for Scotland. As part of the UK Scotland receives the lowest CAP payments in the EU. Westminster took provisional payments made to Scotland.
Scotland did not have the opportunity for EU Renewable Grants because of Westminster indecision. Westminster refused permission for promised CCS projects at Longannet and Peterhead. There is coal all over the UK which could be used with CCS. At a lowest investment cost than fracking Gas.
Westminster spent £Billions on coal powered station in the North of England £2Billion (each?) Invested £2Billion in Nissan production. Now that is in doubt. The Tories have banned coal production in the UK. Banned wind turbines in England. Cut investment in wind, wave and solar. They are wasting £Billions on Hinkley Point and HS2. Disasters waiting to happen. Flying nuclear waste around the world. They want to expand Heathrow the worst airport in the world. With Brexit there will be less passengers or travel. Predicted more freight putting up the price of goods and red tape.
@Kevin Evans
Yes, Unionist agitators are squealing about Indy Ref 2.
On the other hand, there ain’t no such thing as bad publicity, and they are doing a great job keeping it in the minds of the Scottish Electorate, giving it oxygen. Thanks!
But don’t tell them that 🙂
Labour/Unionists were means testing student loans on household incomes. On a sliding scale. Students of households of average earnings couldn’t get a full loan to go to university. Wealthy students from elsewhere were getting a subsidised, by Scottish taxpayers, University education. Boris Johnston’s daughter at St Andrews etc.
Brian Powell says:
9 October, 2016 at 4:08 pm
heedtracker
So Labour think we are just waiting for an MP from Islington to offer something and we will all vote Labour.
Anything JC says has to be looked at as anti independence. From Trident 2 to scrapping the Lords, JC’s just another UKOK bullshit artist assuming we’re all morons. Its all SLab exist for now. Scotland’s got a clear choice, made very unclear by tory BBC Scotland. JC’s knows Scotland wants devo-max, the JC solution? bullshit them they’ll get it with voting JC.
So,
Does SLab work for the good of Scotland?
Did SLab ever work for the good of Scotland?
If Holyrood’s only there to entrench red tory SLabour power, why are they at the end of their long hard 70+ year journey to extremely well protected and boosted by BBC Scotland led media, oblivion?
Grouse Beater @ 3.26pm
There was quite a row about the UK Supreme Court and it’s relationship vis-a-vis the Scottish Court of Session in 2011.
Mr Salmon was very critical of the role of the UK Supreme Court and as usual got protest for it but some in the Scottish legal profession did support his position.
I think the changes to the relationship between the UK Supreme Court detailed in the link may have been the result of Mr Salmond’s criticism of the situation.
Details of the 2011 stooshie here
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13554385
Kevin Evans says:
“we accepted the 2014 result as much as we didn’t want to. …. It’s the yoons who aren’t respecting the will of the people.”
And in 2014 we were told explicitly that the way to keep Scotland in the EU was to vote NO.
We were told all sorts of shite which has turned out to be the exact opposite! IMO that is reason enough to declare IndyRef1 null and void. However, the EU is becoming a HUGE issue because the extreme right in England are now intent on using it as an excuse to change the UK in far more ways than simply how we relate to our EU cousins.
They had so many chances to get things right, yet on every occasion they do wrong by Scotland.
The Union is over. All that is needed is to make the divorce legal and official,
heedtracker says:
“Did SLab ever work for the good of Scotland?”
Yes. But not since Tom Johnston.
I’ll have to re-check my maths (spreadsheet), but it looks like out of 1,705 SNP voters for the first candidate, 106 didn’t express a 2nd preference. And out of the effective 1,442 voters for the 2nd SNP candidate, a whopping 680 didn’t express a 3rd preference.
In other words, half of us listened to the advice – SNP+SNP and then leave blank, so the Conservative got in, not the Independent. Who could be a Green candidate next time.
What the SNP need to do is NOT recommend who goes in after the full SNP candidate list, as that’s “tactical voting” which is dangerous coming from the hierarchy. What the DO need to do is check it out themselves, and put out the offical notice that it makes no difference as long as all SNP candidates are 1,2,3 … N.
And hey, the Greens, any RISE / Solidarity, need to do the same.
Corbyn is a British nationalist, just like Tony Benn was. As such Corbyn is fundamentally untrustworthy. Thankfully most people in Scotland are rejecting the Labour party. Corbyn won’t win a general election. If we don’t regain our independence we will be subjected to decades of tory rule from Westminster.
The Tories have banned coal production in the UK. Banned wind turbines in England. Cut investment in wind, wave and solar.
Tory England is so mental they’d rather any kind of energy except wind. Shackled to lunatics isn’t the half of it.
Rancid The Graun selling tidal power planned spends in Wales and England. Environmental damage is not considered now but the cost per units basically the same as Hinkly C mega spends. Anything, just as long as its not wind, red and blue tory style.
http://archive.is/73HPi
Swansea Bay electricity would cost around £89.90 per megawatt hour, he added, compared with the £92.50 per megawatt hour price predicted for electricity from the Hinkley Point C nuclear plant. “However, when we scale up operations with the Cardiff lagoon – which will have 10 times the generating capacity of Swansea – we will be able to produce power for £65 a megawatt hour,” he said.”
When though, Graun don’t ask. And thanks to Snatcher Thatcher’s reign of tory greatness, its 40 years late.
@yesindyref2
I’ve also noticed the yoons on Twitter are organising a tactical voting campaign for 2017 based of flushing the ballot with unionist party votes.
Kevan Evans:
Look at the discussion just a few lines above.
I have learned more in a few below the line comments in an online blog than from two, perhaps now three years of “constitutional debate” BBC style.
Scotland wasn’t ready to vote in 2014 because the constitutional issues, those not so delicate issues of sovereignty and loyalty, never once saw the appropriate light of day.
The vote happened, but the debate never did. As a nation we were hoodwinked to believe issues like currency, EU membership, pensions, trade and border check points were the constitutional issues, when every one of these ephemeral issues has been turned on its head in less than two years. Settled for a generation? They weren’t even settled for two summers.
Independence is all about sovereignty. You cannot have a debate about independence without sovereignty being THE central issue. You would simply be wasting your time as we all did, Yes people and Unionists alike, back in 2014.
The truth of it is, Unionists know, perhaps better us, that discussion of a progressive case for independence results in our victory and their defeat. So too, they know the real constitutional arguments properly addressed would expose the weaknesses of Westminster and deliver us victory and themselves defeat again. Unionism cannot allow these debates to happen, or all is lost.
Thing is, there is no victory for Unionism in subverting the arguments, discussions and debates which need to happen. All they achieve is to prolong the inevitable, and put another year’s oil revenue beyond the reach of Scotland.
@Dan Huil says:
Sorry to be so pedantic Dan, should that not be MISRULE.
Reds.
@Papadox 4:57pm
Fair point, Papadox.
Legerwood: “There was quite a row about the UK Supreme Court and it’s relationship vis-a-vis the Scottish Court of Session in 2011.”
I remember that well, which is why I always quote this passage from the Treaty:
Article XIX of the Act of Union 1707: The courts in Westminster “shall have no power to Cognosce Review or Alter the Acts or Sentences of the Judicatures within Scotland or stop the Execution of the same.”
Of course, there are a thousand things and more the slop of creeping colonialism has smothered belonging to Scotland, rights we could not defend because we did not have the numbers at WM to resist appropriation, or we were not on our guard at the time. And some Labour and Tory sold to gain WM preferment.
I tried to articulate the frustration here: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-9QH
This take on events by “the largest Irish site in North America” cheered me up …
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/irishvoice/is-english-arrogance-about-to-end-the-united-kingdom
… the world beyond these shores seems to understand exactly what’s going on!
@Kevin Evans
Yes, my hope is that it would be a lot less successful for them, particularly after the toxic xenophobic Tory Conference.
But we ourselves need to get rid of the Holyrood Election legacy of mistrust and outright hatred that still exists.
Even in 2012, the council elections still contained a large amount of personal candidate loyalty, but this one after the Ref is likely to be much more party political – and Indy / not Indy.
yesindyref2 says:
9 October, 2016 at 4:06 pm
Ha! Ha! Ha!
except the term independent candidate covers a multitude of sins, ie, many unionists avoid the party tag, eg labour in oban stood as an independent etc
with 350 different ward elections, the snp wont give guidence to individual wards concerning voting tactics in your ward, they cant even organise their own candidate lists before march.
you need to do that yourselves. each ward is on its own,
All EU migrants can stay in UK after Brexit – reports the Telegraph. From RT.
Who will they vote for now in an Indy ref
As regards the so-called ‘uk supreme’ court in London , England, never forget it was literally created by Tony Blair out of thin air just a few years ago.
I have always found it immensely frustrating the way the Court of Session (the highest court in Scots Law) defers so easily to the nonsense from that made-up, pretendy, London court. The Scottish legal profession make a big thing of Scots law and how it is different etc.. yet on what seems a mere political whim, they have given over authority to a pretendy made-up London court, in complete contravention of the union treaty of 1707, with hardly a whimper.
The Scottish law lords should have nothing to do with it, and ignore its judgements. What could London do? Take them to court?
I do wish some of these kinds of people in Scotland would grow some testicles.
The so-called ‘uk supreme’ court, is sham, a made up nonsense, courtesy of Tony Blair.
Is it not so very predictable the backlash from the die hard yoon rentamob that they should try to misrepresent the #WeAreScotland message and thus by twisting the real sentiment behind it they, once again , in their desperation , suppress a positive perspective of Scotland .
Take Tom Harris ( please someone take him……away……. somewhere far away ), the Twitter buddy of Brian Spanner, the unlovely Tom a former SCOTTISH Labour MP who represented a SCOTTISH constituency .
Well Tom is now a fully paid up member of the yoon rentamob , he’s not bitter of course, and he is now one of the many yoons who are currently frantically twisting the knife into this positive message.A message from other nationalities residing here Tom, not us too big for oor boots Scots blowing oor ain trumpet by the by, ya useless big donut.
Tom wants us to be British , so much so that he is willing to highlight the fact that not everything is rosy within the Scottish garden , cause we , by the way , we are the delusional Scots who are so blinded by oor nationalism that we cannae see the wood for the trees in our too wee and too poor self deluded concept of Scotland being the new Utopia on Earth. SNP cult don’t you know , unlike the British yoon parties progressive ‘movement’ .
Tom has a point though because on the 19 September 2014 in George Square there was an ugly side to Scotland , however unfortunately for Tom it was the ‘British’ unionist side who represented the ugly side via their negative, aggressive and yobbish behaviour , yes the ‘BritScots’ who supported ‘No’ in the Indy Referendum were indeed regressive bigoted xenophobes , though Tom and his fellow spin junkies would rather have you believe it was the ‘Yes’ side who were the baddies driven by anti English racism incited via the evil SNP ‘Divisive’ party.
Perhaps Tom would feel more comfortable with using #WeAreScottishCringe thus keeping us Scots in our true place i.e. under the thumb of England via Westminster. I can understand and feel Tom’s pain now that his own particular gravy train has been derailed. He obviously still has issues and is finding it hard to MOVE ON.
However one does wonder who was Tom REALLY serving when he went to Westminster ? On current form I would hazard a guess that perhaps Tom was not fulfilling his remit as far being a Scottish constituency MP and I think he was perhaps a bit blinded by the tunnel vision that is BritNat politics, thus he was perhaps serving only his own myopic interests and not his Scottish constituents
If Tom wants us to be forever confined within the straightjacket of British politics thus denying us Scots the opportunity to aspire to our full potential then it may be time for Tom to realise the real reason for his own demise in Scottish politics as a MP representing a Scottish constituency.Perhaps his way was too much looking INWARD and not looking OUTWARD enough. Obvs since he is SO anti EU and now anti SCOTTISH it would appear, hence his mucho Scottish scorn upon #WeAreScottish.
Scottish Labour Mp’s (one now ) and ex MP’s like Tom want you to have aspirations as long they can dictate what these aspirations will be. And it would seem being viewed as an outward thinking , welcoming and open country to other citizens of the world is not an aspiration fitting for us sweaty Jocks .
Know your place Scotland and stop trying to be seen as cosmopolitan….that’s London’s role….oops sorry WAS London’s role pre Brexit. #WeAreScottishCringe indeed , and no wonder when ‘Scots’ like Tom are only too happy to put us overstepping Nat Scots in our place when we have delusions of international grandeur.
@schrodingers cat
Sure, but in this case I’d have certainly preferred him to the Conservative. He’s OK though some would say he isn’t. Anyway, instead of Independent read “Green”. Whatever some people think they’re an Indy party, and in any case they’re certainly better than the rabid Unionist.
@Wullie 5:23pm
After the last few days I can’t see most “EU migrants” trusting Westminster anymore. The damage has been done. I believe most will vote Yes in IndyRef2.
@schrodingers cat
“you need to do that yourselves. each ward is on its own”
Yes. But it needs overall guidance from the high heid yins. Basically all they have to do is say:
“We totally support STV and the principles behind it, and would encourage our voters to put all the SNP candidates first, then put the other candidates in their order of preference. And for non-SNP voters, please put us next in preference after your own preferred candidates or party”.
Which is exactly what STV is about, or should be, and the mechanics do support that. It’s also exactly what Angus Robertson in Inverclyde said with the local candidate being there – if you can’t put me first, then please put me second! It seems he at least understands the system.
I think perhaps after the shambles of 2007, there’s still a lot of mistrust of the system – and perhaps even of those doing the counts. But there are observers, after all.
OT I know
I just placed my vote for the deputy leadership I’ve left it late because i couldn’t decide between Tommy Sheppard and Angus Robertson but i eventually settled on Tommy (it’s amazing what a maiden speech in the Commons can do) the problem is there’s such a wealth of talent to choose from any of the candidates would make a great leader and Nicola is still the best.
Where would we be without them
Graeme
@Tam Jardine
Well done Tam, I admire the fact that you keep on trying. I found this part of the BBC’s response most interesting>
“You say twice that we are “the state broadcaster”. That is not correct. The first Director General, John C.W. Reith, made that abundantly clear during the General Strike ninety years ago, and the BBC’s position has not changed since, nor is it ever likely to.”
I wonder why “The first Director General, John C.W. Reith” had to make clear during a General strike across the UK that they were not a government mouthpiece or as you asserted “A state broadcaster”.
I think the BBC is more than that now, the general strike was in 1926 and the BBC was but a baby, no television for a start. the fact though just admitted by a BBC representative that the first Director General “had” to make clear that they were not a Government mouthpiece speaks volumes.
Any BBC types reading this. Take notice, games a bogey and yer teas oot.
“A message from other nationalities residing here Tom, not us too big for oor boots Scots blowing oor ain trumpet by the by, ya useless big donut”.
Sorry missed out # message initiated by Scots to other citizens of the world that they are welcome here in Scotland but message ultimately went viral and retweeted by other nationalities endorsing message .
However was still ‘ no us blowing oor ain trumpet ‘ Mr H ya Donut now and forever more.
Well that is another spot on sketch.
Now OT
Just back from the Scotland game last night and still pissed off so I wont say anything on any other topic except the footie.
re Capella
Well if folk didn’t watch game last night then they didn’t miss much, abysmal Scotland performance. Another display of the technical and tactical mince that is British Footie.
@Iain More
I like what you did there.
‘Another display of the technical and tactical mince that is British Footie.’
Of course if we won it would be Scottish footie 😉
@Liz g says: 9 October, 2016 at 3:31 pm:
” … I also wondered many times how much the “great and the good” in Westminster actually don’t really know how both these form of Soverenty work and how much they choose not to know.”
I’d say there are two kinds of Scottish MPs at Westminster, Liz g.
The seriously clever and informed true politicians and what is described here in jest as, “The Low Flying Jimmies”. The Low flying Jimmies and Jimena’s are no more than Lobby Fodder.
These are the ones you see on parliament TV trooping into the chamber when the lobby bell rings to tell them it is time to vote. They don’t know what they are voting for but just do what the party whips tell them to do. They resent being interrupted while eating and boozing and filling in their expenses.
The others will know full well that there really is only one kind of sovereignty. It is actually just full and absolute power but such power can only be found in dictatorships.
In what are often quite laughably described as democracies those, “Elected to serve”, fall into two distinct types. The real politicians and the corrupt politicians and these last have full knowledge that Gods are a mythical concept whose existence is not possible.
However this type have encouraged the concept since Adam was a boy. In time the more idiotic Gods believed in naturally died out as ignorance is wiped out and human knowledge grows. So worshiping Idols or things like the Sun are not part of modern society.
So they came up with the idea of an unseen and all powerful being to be the God but note this God always has to his human representatives to teach, judge and tell the common people how they must behave.
Hence the Prophets, Popes, Archbishops, Bishops and Moderators came into being. This concept also began to die and was replaced by those greedy and corrupt individuals who wanted power and wealth that became the Royal Families by force of battle.
Sovereignty then became synonymous with Royalty and the Royals all claimed they were Gods representatives on Earth. Then the Royals found themselves being pushed out or made figureheads. The only good thing about all this is that to maintain their powers they invented the concepts of Society and Law. Making laws to justify sovereignty has had the effect of becoming the laws of the land and thus we can use that law to out advantage if we play it clever.
Basically, though, sovereignty belongs to those who can enforce it upon others.
Thepnr
I found that interesting as well- i think I touched a nerve there! What I found when I googled Lord Reith General Strike was that Reith, head of the fledgling BBC allegedly refused to allow the government to co-opt the BBC to oppose the General Strike.
The piece on wikipedia also says that Reith effectively banned Ramsay MacDonald, then leader of the labour opposition from speaking during the general strike which gives a slightly more nuanced view.
Anyway- it is strange reading a statement that tries to explain away the main headline on Scotland’s main evening news programme that was (by their own admission) an absolute falsehood as a mistaken choice of terminology. It is also strange reading that Scotland has a deficit because the Scottish Government put figures together to illustrate a theoretical set of accounts.
And it is strange reading that the public broadcaster who has opposed Scottish independence more fervently and more consistently than anyone in history, even including political parties go in such a strop when they are described as the state broadcaster. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
Robert Peffers,
“You just don’t get what sovereignty actually means, Rock.”
I know exactly what “sovereignty” means.
Haiti and North Korea for example are “sovereign” states, members of the United Nations in their own right.
Scotland is NOT a “sovereign” state, NOT a member of the United Nations or the European Union in its own right.
Saint Theresa is completely right. The UK voted for Brexit and the UK, including the North British region, will Brexit.
It is a bit rich of people who have been colonised by England for more than 300 years to bang on about being “sovereign”.
But my question to you is a very simple one which with your legal and historic expertise you should be able to answer easily in a single sentence.
So let me ask you again.
If the current Scottish parliament voted by a majority vote for independence, is there any SCOTTISH LAW that would make it ILLEGAL?
If there is, which one?
How can the BBC claim they’re not a state broadcaster
Tax money is collected from the public and a part of that money decided by the UK government (BBC employers) is then apportioned to the BBC to fund it
Is that not a Nationalised industry then
If the BBC wasn’t a state broadcaster they’d be wholly commercial earning their own wages as a company like every other business
Am I missing something?
Oaths:
As long as you mentally cross your fingers they don’t mean shit, we learned that from Westminster politicians
I have an entirely different kind of oath for them, probably similar to the ones our ancestors used about them shortly before creating an opening in parliament with their demise for breaking every previous “Oath” to Scotland
@Rock and Robert Peters,
I think there are two issues going on at the same time here. We are still bound by the Treaty of Union, and in that scenario the official legislature is Westminster.
However regarding sovereignty, Nicola has made it very clear that this would be the
MAJORITY will of the people of Scotland . Our MSP’S in Holyrood represent a great deal of people, but the majority?
That is surely why we had the referendum, to gauge exactly that very thing and we lost.
Had we won, then the will of the Scottish people would have led to independence legally, and accepted by all sides. That surely proves the Sovereignty of the Scottish people and not their chosen representatives.
I suppose the answer to your question Rock is that no one but the people can make that decision.
@Tam Jardine
Watched interview of Reith by Muggeridge about the State controlling the output of BBC,
where Reith makes it `abundantly clear` he was `leaned on`during the General Strike by Baldwin not to let a speech by Archbishop of Canterbury be broadcast,
watch whole thing but relevant part starts 4min 30 ish,
http://tinyurl.com/h5e93zp
so basically whoever wrote your reply is lying,
not only that they are knowingly misrepresenting the founder of BBC, Lord Reith,
if Lord Reith was still in charge he would have their guts for garters.
Dr Jim
I think their contention is that the state does not have editorial control over the BBC. Of course there is a grey area and just as no-one remotely sane could claim the BBC were completely independent of the state, I think it is not clear they are under direct and absolute control.
I think it is probably more credible to think of the state and the BBC in symbiosis- existing in tandem with the BBC as junior partner of course. With the fight against Scottish Independence the UK state’s fabric, its very integrity has suffered its worst, most immediate threat since WW2. We have seen the BBC take up the fight for UK state’s very survival.
Did the PM sit down and give the head of the BBC direct instructions on campaigning against Scottish Independence at the start of the campaign? Did he even have to?
Robert Peffers @ 7.44
Can’t disagree with a word of that Robert.
And while we are dealing with Westminster which is claiming that their authority comes through the Monarch from God,I will quite happily not disabuse them of that notion,because it lends itself to the concept of God as the ultimate arbitrar of who has power.
Therefore according to their own Law’s the Declaration of Arbroth has to stand,and that makes us Sovereign.
I find it amusing to take that notion to it’s logical conclusion, that if Unionists who believe in Devine right want the Act of Union settled forever and the Monarchy to be THE Sovereign in Scotland.
They would have to have it declared that God either made a mistake or changed his mind.
Also more than funny to consider the idea of who exactly they would need ask to be the conductor of this information,and recognise his authority to do so.
All the while trusting that he wouldn’t also say God has just told me he no longer think’s that the Windsor’s are the right people for this Soverenty malarkey.
But I doubt that penny will ever drop.
Glamaig says:
9 October, 2016 at 7:38 pm
@Iain More
“Of course if we won it would be Scottish footie ”
Nah our Press and Media would have said it was a demonstration of good old fashioned up and at em Brit guts and determination and so on. The Media Whores in our News rooms would have hailed yet another “British” team winning, well if we had gone onto win the game in injury time they certainly would have.
Well I noted that Andy Murray became the ahem first Brit to win the China Open since eff knows when and that wasn’t even the BBC saying that but Britannia TV Glasgow.
The London Court cannot usurp Scots Law. So it means Scottish folk are denied a right of Appeal to the ECHR. If the Scottish courts block it, the London Court can’t overrule their decision. It is not in their jurisdiction. Blair effectively stopped people in Scotland the right of appeal, and their rights as EU citizens.
The Scottish Courts blocked Tommy Sheridan’s right of appeal to the ECHR. The London Court upheld that decision. It is not right. Before anyone in Scotland could appeal to the ECHR if two advocates agreed there was a case. That has been blocked in Holyrood now. Why?
Apparently in 1320, the Declaration of Arbroath , a petition to the Pope requesting the confirmation of the legitimacy of the Bruce’s right to the Scottish crown established ‘for all time’ the sovereignty of the Scottish People.
I was taught this in school. However, having studied Scottish history for many years. This interpretation has become more and nore difficult to justify as an assertion of ‘popular’ sovereignty. For one thing, all the signatories were nobles. There was no commonality of peasants to be represented.
When John Knox , the English collaborator, managed to help establish the Reformation in the mid 1550s in Scotland. The Pope’s authority and the legitimacy of Kings was undermined by the Presbyterian belief in no intermediate such as a king having other than borrowed sovereignty from the Presbyterian congregation, not the Scottish people necessarily, particularly if they were Catholic.
The Lords of the Congregation: Fourteen earls, six bishops, nineteen lords, twenty-one abbots, twenty-two burgh commissioners, and over a hundred lairds, claimed the right to sit. Ignoring the provisions of the Treaty of Edinburgh, on 17 August, Parliament approved a Reformed Confession of Faith (the Scots Confession), and on 24 August it passed three Acts that abolished the old faith in Scotland.
From the point onwards, religion defined Scottish sovereignty. The accession of James vi and Ist to the English crown meant the first mention of the ‘King of Britain’ by him in 1604 by proclamation. The English didn’t want it, but servile old Scotland allowed it to be used as his official title on Court Documents etc.In his book the’True Law of Free Monarchies’, James laid down the seeds of civil war within the three kingdoms of the British Isles.In this tome, he established the Stuart’s belief in the ‘Divine Right of Kings’.
Scotland started the ball rolling….as usual with resistance to the Episcopalianism and James’s son Charles and his own brand of Divineness and its bishops and prayerbook with the National Covenant, signed often in blood, and invasion of England in 1638. Scotland won. But subsequently the whole islands of Britain divided over religion and the desire of the English Parliament to resist this dictatorship of monarchy.
When the wars finally ended with James’s son Charles being executed by the English Parliament. Scottish Presbyterian belief that they had been cheated of enforcing Presbyterianism on England via an agreement ‘THE Engagement’ and that the death of a tyrant rather than removal was wrong, tried to fight back and Cromwell, the Great Protector, gave Scotland, Dundee in particular, a right good kicking.
Which led to the Great Protectorate of Great Britain under Cromwell the Dictator. After his death and the Restoration and finally coup de tat by the English parliament, Scotland tamely accepted each regime change. Fatefully as it turned out, as the last monarch, supposedly a constitutional one, helped to undermine the Darien Scheme and ultimately bankrupt Scotland’s aristocrats sufficiently for them to sell us down the river.
The point is: Sovereignty of the people is a modern concept and stems in Scotland from its presbyterian roots. From History it can be seen that Scotland has accepted oppressive government from London in its various forms for over 400 years. Only with the modern introduction of The Equal Franchise Act 1928 which lowered the minimum age for women to vote from 30 to 21, making men and women equal in terms of suffrage for the first time, can we say that the opportunity for popular sufferage has existed in Scotland.
The UN and the EU recognise the rights of nations to self determination. Those rights are the justification for Scotland to hold a plebiscite as and when we want to. The Scottish parliament, despite being a devolved assembly has the legitimacy because of its representatives being voted for democratically and nationally throughout Scotland. This is all we need to vote ourselves out of the Union of 1707, not scrabbling about with archaic ‘for all time’ historical and arcane documents, important as they be to Scotland’s history.
Rock @ 7.51
The answer to your question is yes it would be illegal.
The law that prevents it is the Scotland Act.
Which sets out the powers of that parliament and the ability to do anything with the Treaty Of The Union isn’t included.
As to your example of other countries being sovereign,while they are indeed sovereign the thing that makes them sovereign is how they base and on what Law’s they ordered their society.
Ours is based on Scot’s Law and included within it is The Declaration Of Arbroth.
The PM in Westminster meets with the Head of the BBC every week for instructions. Greg Dykes was sacked by Westminster for the ‘sex up’ dossier. Another one left after a few months with a huge pay off. The presenters do not pay their proper share of tax. One presenter this morning cut off a discussion about paying a full share of tax. Picking up a huge fee for ‘Strictly Come Dancing’ They are a bunch of hypocrites. Overpaid prima donnas. They don’t read the news. They think they make the news. The BBC costs £3Billion for nonsense. Lord Hall says it is not biased. Purnell his side kick was s former Labour MP. Sky is the same. Totally biased nonsense.
Gary Smith goes to London for instructions every month. The Mc? one was shifted for bullying and harassing staff. Now employed as a cohesive UK coordinator. A snitch. More like coercive.
Imagine not showing the Andy Murray matches. Or some of the football. The terraces are empty. Most of the teams are in massive debt. Overpaid prima donnas. The broadcasting staff.
@Lochside,
Legally your proposition would not hold water. Scotland could elect a majority of SNP both at Westminster and Holyrood,but not necessarily with the majority of the population. These things matter
@DerekM says: 9 October, 2016 at 10:24 am:
“Shhh dont tell old Lizzy but she is not the Queen of Scotland if she want that title then she must be crowned as Queen Elizabeth the 1st of Scotland.”
There hasn’t been a king or queen of Scotland since before 1320 and the declaration of Arbroath, Derekm.
Why do you spout such pish?
The royal person who wears the crown of Scotland bears the title, “King, or Queen, of Scots”, because the royal person’s job under Scots law is defender of the sovereignty of the People of Scotland. The Royal person thus does not own Scotland as the Royal person in the three country Kingdom of England owns England Wales and N. Ireland and everything in that Kingdom – including her/his subjects.
What’s more we, the people of Scotland can legally sack the royal person if they do not protect our sovereignty.
In case there are those who have never read the text in English I paste it below and emphasise the bit that says we can legally sack Auld Lizzie if she does NOT protect our legal sovereignty.
Well I noted that Andy Murray became the ahem first Brit to win the China Open since eff knows when and that wasn’t even the BBC saying that but Britannia TV Glasgow.
Its awful isn’t it. Andy’s played an incredible tournament, almost unbelievable athletic achievement, yet the abject shits that own the BBC and all Scottish media refuse to broadcast any of it.
The only way Scottish sports fans can see the world’s greatest athlete is on his own website, which must be unique in world sport.
http://www.andymurray.com/feature/beijing-open-gallery/
Lochside @ 8.40
While I can’t disagree that Soverenty in the Declaration of Arbroth was only intended for certain people,the law it made still stands.
As all laws do until the government change them.
The franchise has evolved to include everyone now but who is in or out of it still doesn’t mean it alters the law.
It’s not altered till it’s altered if you like.
But I do disagree that Holyrood has the ability to just make us independent by virtue of the right to self determination.
As I understand it that power is with in the gift of the Westminster MPs.
But we have to give them the instructions to do it.
Bob Mack,
“I suppose the answer to your question Rock is that no one but the people can make that decision.”
The people have elected the Scottish parliament.
Liz g,
“Rock @ 7.51
The answer to your question is yes it would be illegal.
The law that prevents it is the Scotland Act.”
The Scotland Act is not a Scottish law.
Why is our legal and historic expert Robert Peffers not answering this simple question with one sentence?
If the current Scottish parliament voted by a majority vote for independence, is there any SCOTTISH LAW that would make it ILLEGAL?
If there is, which one?
Lochside,
“However, having studied Scottish history for many years. This interpretation has become more and nore difficult to justify as an assertion of ‘popular’ sovereignty. For one thing, all the signatories were nobles. There was no commonality of peasants to be represented.”
Totally agree.
The “plebs” of Scotland were never “sovereign”.
Any rights that the “plebs” got came from Westminster laws after the union.
The people of Scotland in practice are most certainly NOT “sovereign” and never have been.
Robert Peffers claims that the people have been brainwashed into thinking they are not “sovereign”.
The people are not as stupid as that. They know exactly where they stand.
A minority voted to become a “sovereign” state but the majority voted to remain the UK’s North British region.
@Tam Jardine
Each war or conflict or even argument with any other counrty reported by the BBC always seems to be carried out in a manner whach suggests or outright states the UK position as “The right one” and it’s always reported as news mixed with analysis and opinion giving the listener or viewer no choice as to what they’re seeing or hearing as to which are facts and which is opinion
Lies and propaganda were used by the British government during previous wars and the BBC were instructed by the UK government to be the instrument of distribution of that
Whilst I agree entirely with what you say I would contend that the BBC not only takes instruction from UK guv but is also an arm of it, as are the friends of UK guv who use their newspapers to carry out the same work
Having said all that I do not believe there to be a “Chain of command” as such but I do believe it to be an ingrained institutionalised “Standing order” and probably from time to time advice sought by the BBC from UK government as to certain policy positions
Maybe along the lines of “How would you like the BBC to proceed with this Mr Secretary”
I’m just an amateur conspiracy theorist, so without actually kidnapping the head of the BBC and pulling his fingernails out I can only wonder at the answers you’d get if you did, might be fun though
I’ll away and sip some of my dirty Martini now, shaken not stirred
The continuing extension of the franchise is what makes everyone in Scotland covered by the Declaration of Arbroath. Whilst it may be argued that somehow Scotland has aquiessed to relinquishing it’s sovereignty under threat of invasion it should be remembered that the 1703 union was after the restoration and would have no meaning if we weren’t sovereign at that point. It makes it less than clear but the implication is we are to continue the same laws as previously. At no point is transfer of sovereignty to Westminster mentioned and there’s a case on record stating Parliamentary Sovereignty is not a concept in Scotland’s law.
Even had financial and other coercions somehow forced Scotland to relinquish our sovereignty under modern UN rules that wouldn’t be binding.
The only way Westminster can remove the thorn in its side that ultimately we are sovereign would be by our freely voting for it. Assuming the putative new Treaty of Union ever sees the light of day I doubt they would blatantly ask us to surrender our sovereignty. However I wouldn’t be surprised at some clauses that do so indirectly.
” … Why is our legal and historic expert Robert Peffers not answering this simple question with one sentence?
I already told the blog that I’m rewiring my home network and building an entertainment centre. That means my computers are NOT working except during meals and rest breaks.
As to your required one sentence answer I must have given you that on hundreds of posts in one word, SOVEREIGNTY, and the explanation that as the people of Scotland are legally sovereign then they are the legal owners of Scotland and the United Kingdom can only exercise our legal sovereignty as long as we allow them to do so.
Furthermore, as we are legally sovereign and we elect a person to represent us we delegate that person to exercise our sovereignty.
The people of, (The Kingdom), of England are NOT sovereign. The Queen of England is – but her sovereignty is legally given to those MPs that the people of England vote for but who then exercise the Queen’s sovereignty.
In point of fact there are no written laws recognised by the Westminster parliament regarding political parties. These are simply not recognized by the laws and were NOT part of the original idea of parliamentary representation.
Parties were formed for the benefit of the MPs for their own good and really are nothing to do with the laws.
Simple described the idea was to have one representative for each, more or less equal, constituent part, (constituency), of the whole United Kingdom and for the elected members to elect, from among their numbers, the officials like Prime minister and Chancellor etc.
Officially it is the whole parliament, including the Lords, that legislate for the United Kingdom.
Lochside,
“The Scottish parliament, despite being a devolved assembly has the legitimacy because of its representatives being voted for democratically and nationally throughout Scotland. This is all we need to vote ourselves out of the Union of 1707, not scrabbling about with archaic ‘for all time’ historical and arcane documents, important as they be to Scotland’s history.”
Totally agree.
We certainly cannot get independence by scrabbling about with archaic ‘for all time’ historical and arcane documents that Robert Peffers bangs on about.
Robert Peffers claims that we don’t need Westminster’s permission to hold a referendum.
What Scottish law then prevents the Scottish parliament from voting by a majority for independence?
Robert Peffers,
“As to your required one sentence answer I must have given you that on hundreds of posts in one word, SOVEREIGNTY, and the explanation that as the people of Scotland are legally sovereign then they are the legal owners of Scotland and the United Kingdom can only exercise our legal sovereignty as long as we allow them to do so.”
With all due respect Mr Peffers you still have not provided an answer to a simple question.
If the current Scottish parliament voted by a majority vote for independence, is there any SCOTTISH LAW that would make it ILLEGAL?
If there is, which one?
@Rock,
The Treaty of Union is still in existence as far as I know. What you refer to is revolution (UDI). Nobody but nobody would deal with us under those circumstances.
Remember Rhodesia ? Case in point.
Dr Jim
I think we broadly agree but it is hard to describe the actual relationship without, as you say, pulling a few fingernails.
I describe it as symbiosis- the state needs the BBC as its propaganda arm whilst the very existence of the BBC as a state funded monopoly is reliant on the government of the day.
You can see how very different that relationship is in Scotland where neither direction of need exists.
I think the only way to get to the truth would be through hacking or by infiltrating the upper echelons somehow and neither avenue is within my abilities.
@Dr Jim
you do not need to pull any finger nails out,
here is Lord Reith admitting to state interference of the BBC,
http://tinyurl.com/h5e93zp
Rock @ 9.06
The Scotland Act is written into Scottish law,why would you think otherwise?
It was able to be written in because the Parliament that wrote it has the authority to do so.
That’s because our MPs were there as is the arrangement for making laws for Scotland and has been since 1707.
That Act frames what Holyrood can do.
There is nothing in that act to allow Holyrood to do anything with the Treaty of the Union.
I don’t think there are much more ways of answering your question,and I don’t want to take up any more of the thread just repeating myself.
The stuff Tam Jardine is posting about is probably going to do more for our role in the campaign anyway.
Don’t know if it would help you but I think you might be mixing up Legal & Lawful take a look and mibbi you would be able to put your question another way.
And then our answers might make sense to you.
Other than that… isn’t The National wonderful?
Discuss!
Bob Mack says:
9 October, 2016 at 8:52 pm
@Lochside,
‘Legally your proposition would not hold water. Scotland could elect a majority of SNP both at Westminster and Holyrood,but not necessarily with the majority of the population. These things matter’
I stated that the Scottish parliament could hold a ‘plebiscite’. That is a referendum…it has nothing to do with the elected msps and Mps. It does ‘hold water’. Please read first what I said before jumping in. These things matter!
Lots of posts discussing the Declaration of Arbroath signed by clerics as well as nobles. I see some here deny it’s sentiments include the people of Scotland.
Nothing is further from the truth.
Once you get over the cloying appeal to the Pope, you have to look at the detail of the Declaration for reassurance that the idea of ‘national’ freedom did indeed mean all the people, not only the elite of the day, the nobles.
It defined that freedom. In succeeding sections of the document it states the freedoms Edward I had defiled, Robert the Bruce had restored, and which Scots would fight to the death to retain. We would not fight for a king alone, but for the freedom of our nation.
It makes clear it is the freedom to be a sovereign people, a kingdom ruled by a king of our own choosing.
The significance of the Declaration of Arbroath is that it represents the high water mark of a singularly Scottish version of ancient independence. It articulates a sovereign kingdom means a sovereign people.
Nothing like the Declaration had been attempted before or, indeed, after.
Simply put, the declaration states, the people of Scotland are obedient to the inherited authority of their king, free from the control of another king, and another kingdom.
That isn’t a novel interpretation. It’s all in the text, and that’s what has been understood ever since, deeply embedded in other nations of Europe … hence our instinctive ties with that great continent and its people, and our anger at being removed from it by an alien parliament.
Westminster / Blair / Labour outfoxed themselves when they asked us to give Holyrood the right to hold consultative referenda. It was that which gave the SNP the right to fulfil their mandate and forced Cameron to instigate the manoeuvre that officially transferred the power to hold a referendum that would bind Westminster.
Note that as the SNP also had a manadate to negotiate the transfer of further powers to Holyrood which is why the Scotland Act 2014 isn’t an imposition of Westminster.
Swat it before it morphs into human form!
On sovereignty, I agree with Robert Peffers’ view that the Treaty is like a marriage. Neither party gives up their sovereignty on signing the contract.
Re Scotland not having a representative at the UN, neither does England. There is a UK rep. I believe we are very poorly represented in these international bodies because the UK reps do not speak for us.
We need our own reps at all international decision making bodies.
An independent Scotland must be constructed on solid legal and constitutional foundations. In the light of the Scottish Government’s theme of ‘Education’ for the current parliamentary term, it puzzles me that, so far, no programme of ‘sovereign’ education has been initiated, neither among the 124,000 SNP party members, nor the Scottish people.
But there’s time yet.
@Scot Finlayson
That was really interesting I’m obliged sir
I studied Scots Law for a year (day release) while I was a Bank Apprentice with Clydesdale Bank, 1969-70.
The situation then was that the Scots law lords in the House of Lords was the final court of appeal in Scottish civil cases.
I have no idea if that has changed – and if it has changed, would it not be in breach of both the articles and act of union?
————————————————-
Re: the difference between ‘unlawful’ and ‘illegal’.
Unlawful means against the law. Illegal is a sick burd.
Manandboy @ 12.27
While I do think the MSM would scream “indoctrination” from the rooftops if the SNP,tried to set up an education programme on Soverenty/the Constution and how it all works.
I do see the need for something to be put in place,not only would it focus our attention on what the politicians are doing but we would also have some ideas of what they should be doing.
But mainly because we are about to draft a written Constution and the people who will be doing it will be the Scottish Establishment, for us to have any input we would need to have at least some notion of what it was all about.
At a minimum the understanding that a Constution is supposed to limit the power of government.
Right now I’m afraid most Scot’s seem to know more about the American Constution than they do about our current and future one.
I must admit that I was very disappointed at the interim Constution that was published during the last referendum.
@yesindyref2 @ 4.06 pm:
Wait! What?!
As far as I remember, my choices in the last council election were:
SNP
Tories (over my dead body!!
Slab (never again!)
LibDems (mwhahaha!)
Some religious nutter
Accordingly, I marked my ballot “SNP – 1” and left the rest blank. Are you saying that would be counted as a spoiled ballot? Am I therefore forced to choose at least one other candidate in 2nd place? Surely that can’t be right?
May under pressure to end alarm and uncertainty over Britain’s move to “full Brexit”
http://archive.is/ll5Wp
Tories in disarray over foreign workers’ list proposal, says Labour’s Abbott
http://archive.is/eQAce
Leaving EU ‘could open door to Lords overhaul and voting reform’
Mr Murray told the Scottish Fabians Conference in Edinburgh that Scottish people want “strong devolution as part of the United Kingdom” while maintaining a strong relationship with Europe.
http://archive.is/dkWQs
Oh wait!
It’s Murray saying ‘could’ Two reasons it’s a red squirrel
By golly not another of these shite cartoons. In the absence of any real content. The age of the political cartoon was the late 19th Century and was mostly crap. Greg Moodie excepted, as they’re actually funny.
The Independence movement seems to have its head up its own arse. A pro-independence, well left-of-centre party is sorely needed in Scotland now and the SNP clearly is not either. Not it.
Wings reveals its true purpose, this last week, along with embittered remnants of the old discredited establishment out in the cold, like Craig Murray, Derek Bateman, pining for former status, one foot in both camps, tough news boys their will be no ‘new’ establishment for you to ooze into, that’s not ways of the renewed Scotland. Together they cluck, their aim to : bind Scotland inescapably to the frankly undemocratic EU, an EU rooted and steeped in corporatism and fascism, a one-stop-shop for lobbying and corruption. The Russian people call such EU subordinate, sub-nations including the UK particularly: Z.O.G., Zionist-Occupied-Government for good reasons. The EU supported and still supports the Ukranian coup, and Israel’s genocidal wars on the North African and Arab branches of the human family, sanctions Russia, Syria, Iran on specious and convoluted grounds, is ever a loyal US parter in epic economic and military crimes. Across Europe governments, in Denmark, little Denmark, in Sweden, in Holland, in Poland, in France, in London -across the board, across the EU, governments are outright barking-mad fascists and boastful war criminals. They’ve all got their own lying sacks of undiluted twisted machiavellian evil like Kirsty Wark to perfume and launder state crimes perpetrated against their own and other peoples, BBC style.
The harder and the sooner the Brexit, the better, Scotland included. The UK will deflate like the over-inflated bubble of foul gas it is in due course. Neither frying-pan or fire. Independence.
All this 13th century, royal and popes declarations of this that and the other, ancient ‘law’, divine right of pish, sovereignty and so on are of absolutely no meaning or relevance to modern-day Scotland’s predicament, its intellectual masturbation. We don’t care about any of this, its energy wasted, dissipated, tedious turgid, meaningless, just reading it is tiresome never mind the anguish some endure typing at all, in the absence of original thought, bloody fairy stories, like religion. Baggage.
I’m not even gonna bother trying to answer this bag of posh from TomB instead can I just add one thing and ask that everyone ignores him …
T R R R R R O L L !
🙂
Gavin Barrie @ 1.55
Aw are you sure?
He gave a whole list of subjects there and with the exception of one they had all already been discussed.
I thought he was just trying to be the resident expert on masturbators.
I mean enquiring minds and all that.
Ho hum suppose I just have to ignore.
2 quick points.
1. My council election voting will be simple.
SNP as many times as required then the rest can kiss my hairy Scottish arse.
2. Tom Harris of huffy labour hue, attended the Tory Party Conference. Go figure.
Regarding this Tom B character…(chief masturbator..?)….He sooo..requires a handjob from edward scissorhands”
geeo @ 2.23
That’s a good plan…. inspirational..LOL
But should that no be Masturbator in chief?
yesindyref2 and stuckdoonhame :
I’m no psephological expert but I think if you just put a “1” for your preferred candidate on the ballot paper in a PR election and leave all the other boxes completely blank, I.e. Giving no second nor third etc preference:
A that is a perfectly valid paper not a spoiled one
And:
B this gives the optimum support you can give to your most preferred candidate of winning
Can anyone confirm this or otherwise authoritatively? Could be crucial in some STV (=single transferable vote not the TV station!) council elections next May..?
Addition/amendment to previous post:
In a STV multi ward election you might want to maximise support for two or three candidates (for pro Indy supporters I presume and trust this would be the non-yoon candidates) then you need only give say 1 and 2 or 1, 2 and 3 etc then leave yo on boxes blank thus maximising pro Indy chances?
yoon not yo on
@punklin
At last I found the official ScotGov document on this STV-PR:
http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0038/00389095.pdf
which has a good worked example of an STV election with 3 seats. Anyways.
As long as there’s only one “1” on a ballot sheet it’s valid and used, even if you screw up the other boxes by putting wrong numbers or whatever. They’re machine read, but any dodgy ones get the human touch. The purpose of that is to make all efforts to use a vote, so with the 1 it would be used for your first preference. The count is complicated so it’s done by computer. No idea if it’s manually checked afterwards – it should be!
As for leaving the rest blank, that’s what the debate’s about. I’ve done my research and I say you can fill in as many boxes as you like, as long as you put SNP 1, 2, 3 if there are 3 candidates, you can then put Green 4, 5. Or the other way around! It doesn’t look at further preferences in your list until the 1st preference is either elected or eliminated. Then it looks at the 2nd preference and doesn’t look at any firther preferences until that candidate is elected or eliminated. and so on.
Tom B.
“That’s crap, you’re crap, they’re crap, what we need we haven’t got, the EU’s crap, your friends are idiots, there’s no democracy, your history is crap, your law is crap, your heritage and culture is crap, but Brexit is an excellent idea”.
Cringe ambulance is on its way Tom B, hang on in there… meantime open the curtains and let some sunshine in.
https://caltonjock.com/2015/05/30/top-bush-era-cia-official-war-on-iraq-was-based-on-a-lie-chilcott-report-failed-the-nation-teflon-tony-gets-away-with-it/
It was Britain and France who carved up the Middle East France had Syria and Britain Iraq. The Sykes/Picot Agreement. Before the EU was ever founded after the 11WW. The Balfour Agreement 1917, Lloyd George. The Liberals also partitioned Ireland 1922. After refusing Home Rule. The Easter uprising 1916. The Uster Volunteers. Crawford etc started bringing in weapons. The Britush troops open fire on demonstrators.
The Balfour Agreement 1917 gave. Right to a State of Israel on Palestinian land. An secret agreement between Lord Balfour and Lord Rothchild with the consent of Lloyd George. ‘Once the (German) threat in the Dardanelles subsided Lloyd George decided to had over part of the ailing Ottoman State to American and Russian Jews. German submarines had been blockading the Dardanelles. The Arabs had bed promised the vote for fighting with the Allies in the1WW. Westminster reneged. Lawrence of Arabia was campaigning in the House of Lords in support of Arab emancipation, Still hasn’t happened yet. Saudia Arabia is the most despot absolute monarchy in the world. Supported and armed by the West. Britain, France and the US. Illegal wars etc. Universal suffrage in UK 1928 after 1WW. In many (EU) countries it came later. Spain 1978. Switzerland even later. Women got the vote – 70”s.
The US Oil companies moved into the Middle East 1913. The Sun Oil company. Britain, France and the US have taking the Middle Eastern resources for nearly 100 years. Churchill/US M15/CIA overthrew and discredited the Iranian PM in the 1950’s caused unrest and took all the Oil resources. Re imposed the unelected deposed Shah. Britain, France and US caused trouble and war in the Middle East to illegally take all the Oil resources. The Grrmans trade in the Middle Eaet. They are all over the Middle East selling cars and building construction projects
The EU was founded after the 11WW. To stop starvation in Europe and stop war. It is mainly a trade agreement for equal trade and shared military expense. It is Britain, France and the US who ignore international Law and illegally invade other countries in the Middle East. The Iran/Iraq war the West encouraged Iraq to invade Iran. Invaded Libya. Libya was considered to have one of the most liberal political systems in the world. Based on local committees from the bottom to the top. Based on the French ‘sans culottes’. There was a good education and health care system. Iraq was modernised and was a secular society. There was tight control to avoid sectarian violence. Until it was bombed without any effort to reconstruct.
1917 the Russian revolution. 1930’s Spanish Civil War. The Depression. 1939 11WW. 26Million Russians died protecting the West.
OT
Edinburgh March/Rally 22nd Oct 12 noon Waterloo Place
https://mobile.twitter.com/yes2edinburgh/status/784267335976706053
See ye there 😀
1969 Scottish Oil. Thatcher secretly and illegally took the Scottish Oil resources, she offshored it. Kept it off the Official Accounts. Spent it building up London S/E. Building Cabary a Wharf and Tilbury Docks. Economic policies which favoured London S/E. Centralised the transport system through London. The Tories are wasting £Billuons on Hinkley Point and HS2. Expanding Heathrow with no business case, Trying to take the UK out of the EU destroying the world economy. Blair and Brown illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion. £Trillions of debt. The UK The most unequal place in the world.
The “must fill every box” interpretation was used in the past. The only question is who benefited by that and whether it was deliberate?
@ Canary Wharf and sold off utilities. Now owned by foreign State companies. Deregulated banking causing the banking crash. Demutualised building societies owned by their members. Sold off to Banks to gamble the mortgage books on the stock exchange. Lowering the value and exaggerating value of inflated property values. Fraud.
http://mrmalkysblog.blogspot.co.uk/
http://www.arcofprosperity.org/
http://newsnet.scot/archive/podcast-lazy-journalism-scandalous-council-house-sale/
http://truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/ex-british-ambassador-i-call-it-fascist-i-dont-know-what-else-to-call-it/
http://www.thecanary.co/2016/10/09/when-the-uks-defence-policy-is-to-lie-with-the-help-of-secretive-corporations/
https://publiclawforeveryone.com/2016/10/09/on-whether-the-article-50-decision-has-already-been-taken/
Sterling-remains-near-90p-against-euro-as-hard-brexit-fears-grow
http://archive.is/23RaI
After May’s Brexit pledge, Europeans close ranks
http://archive.is/RCoZP
https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2016/09/17/an-act-of-self-interest/
Anyone know why there are cut % paste (copied) versions of the same story – SNP cannabis NHS vote, in the National & the Metro?
Tom B: “The Independence movement seems to have its head up its own arse.”
Seems? You mean you’re not sure?
Yeah, well, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.”
True, by The Dude.
AnTeallach at 0747am,
UNCHAIN THE UNICORN
Thanks for letting people know about the INDEPENDENCE MARCH IN EDINBURGH on Saturday 22nd October. Can I urge everybody to re – post the necessary links so we get the maximum number of people aware of this event.
Here is the link from above (I don’t know if there are any others),
https://mobile.twitter.com/yes2edinburgh/status/784267335976706053
And here is another link,
https://mobile.twitter.com/yes2edinburgh/status/784267335976706053/photo/1
Let’s make this a big one. Lesley Riddoch and the wee ginger dug (plus owner Paul Kavanagh) are among the speakers.
I’m not organising it, but it looks like it is going from Waterloo place (3 minutes from Waverly) at 12PM, down to Holyrood, so quite an easy walk.
Please, re-post the links and make sure people know about this event. We need a big turnout.
@Orri @ 7.53
With only 2 independence-supporting options on the ballot paper (SNP & Greens) – then surely it’s quite obvious which side of that particular debate benefits from instructions being issued to voters to “use all your votes”
Someone mentioning the ‘E’ word.
https://archive.is/JErid
I think some STV systems allow you to put an X at any time to show you want to follow a parties recommended order from then on. For instance if you’ve got 2 candidates you like then you mark the first 1 and the next X.
If that’s not an option the next choice is to fill in all the boxes for your party preference in the order you want. If you’re stuck follow a party order but you don’t have to. Any attempt at maximising the vote for a selected few is pointless and prone to failure.
For instance if there’s 80% support in a 3 seat ward and most only mark 2 boxes in the same order then only 2 seats will be won.
Vote SNP/SNP/SNP May 2017. Do not waste or cancel out the vote.
For a self governance/Independence and a better more equal prosperous Scotland.
The Greens collude with Unionists and renege on their policies. They vote with the status quo – the Unionists – and waste £Millions/Billions of publc money. Building groteque projects the majority do not want and not predestrianising city centres. Against the majority interest and the public interest, for remuneration and Office. They collude and are funded by landowners to prevent land coming back into public use.
@Harry Shanks, @Orri
The problem with this debate is that there should be no debate, the SNP and Greens should just make it very clear that the way STV works is as it is meant to – no vote is wasted, so fill in as many boxes as you like in order of preference – but you don’t have put anything for candidates you don’t like! Same for RISE and Solidarity if they stand candidates, even Lab for Indy, Women for Indy – Conservatives for Indy if they exist!
It’s the total lack of clear information from the leaderships that is the big problem.
AMS – the Holyrood system – well, that’s totally different. The list vote can be gamed, even though it’s potentially dangerous to do so. STV can’t. It’s part of the reason why, in fact, the ScotGov are currently considering changing the HE elections to STV (I think the power to do so may be being devolved soon).
@Macart
I vaguely remember a little rebranding of the words of the famous Brit thing:
(the sensitive should avert their e’es)
Cool Britannia
Britannia you are cool
Britain never never never
Will be hippy
The Independence movement seems to have its head up its own arse.
Well we know which arse yoon culture’s head is, or at least its tongue. Get off your cringing knees Tom.
@orri
Oh yes (preens self, coughs), but our STV elections are transferred by the WIGM method don’t you know!
“Surplus votes are transferred by the Weighted Inclusive Gregory Method (WIGM), as specified in the Election Rules. In this method all of the ballot papers held by the candidate with the surplus are examined. The surplus votes are transferred in accordance with the ‘next available preferences’ marked on those ballot papers by the voters.“
@Yesindyref2
‘Branding’
Gotta love it. 🙂
STV – the bible according to StUrgeon (well, the Scottish Government)
http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0038/00389095.pdf
The worked example really ends all debate about how it works, particularly stage 3.
gordoz @ 8.29am
The reason why exactly the same story might appear, word-for-word in both the National and the Metro is simple.
These are prototypes of what, in a short time, most if not all newspapers will become. They are produced on a shoe-string by skeleton staffs of production journalists (sub-editors etc), cobbling together copy provided by various news agencies.
I have not seen either paper, but would (quite reasonably) assume each team of subs was given the identical Press Association copy, which they then placed in the paper.
As the bean counters’ influence grows, you will see more and more examples of this cropping up.
@Tom B
Posh voices on Radio 4 get vast amounts of airtime to talk about Magna Carta. We have nobody to talk for us about the Declaration of Arbroath or the Treaty of Union, so we are doing it for ourselves, ok?
yesindyref2 9.38
Any system of voting which requires an eight-page explanation should never have been implemented in the first place.
Sad. Even 6 years ago, better reporting days from the Herald:
http://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-herald/20101210/282475705241318
Gordoz 8.29
Socrates 9.29
So it goes.
http://archive.is/asyX2
@Tom B
`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
“Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!”
He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought —
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.
And, as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.
“And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!’
He chortled in his joy.
`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.”
rules for voters
No 1
Never vote for any Unionist on any ballot paper in any ward anywhere in Scotland
No 2
First Learn rule number one
No 3
If there are no Indy candidates on your ballot paper, Stand as a candidate yourself or destroy your ballot paper or don’t vote at all
No 4
If there is only one Indy supporting candidate on your ballot. vote for him/her, regardless of which party or none they represent.
No 5
If you are an SNP supporter, and there is 1 SNP candidate and 1 Indy candidate standing in your ward vote
SNP 1 & Indy2
No 6
If you are an Indy supporter, and there is 1 SNP candidate and 1 Indy candidate standing in your ward vote
Indy1 & SNP 2
No 7
If you are an SNP supporter, and there are 2 SNP candidates and 1 Indy candidate standing in your ward vote
SNP 1&2 & Indy3
No 8
If you are an Indy supporter, and there are 2 SNP candidates and 1 Indy candidate standing in your ward vote
Indy1 & SNP 2&3
For Activists
No 1
If there are insufficient unionist candidates on your ballot paper, consider standing as an Independent Unionist candidate with a UJ as the logo next to your name on the ballot paper. Even better, convince a friend to stand as a Unionist Independent candidate with a UJ logo too. the more the merrier ?
No 2
Avoid standing more than one indy candidate against SNP candidates in any ward. Consider standing in a neighbouring ward with no other Indy candidates other than SNP candidates
No 3
Indy candidates should avoid standing in wards with 2 SNP candidates, Standing in a neighbouring ward with only 1 SNP candidate will improve your chances
No 4
Identify all Independent candidates to ascertain whether they are Unionists or not
No 5
Contact your local Green/SSP/Solidarity/Rise party and find out how many and where they are standing. Help negotiate to avoid conflicts of interest
@schrodingers cat
“If you are an Indy supporter …”
Shirley “If you are an Indy supporter who isn’t an SNP supporter …”?
Otherwise completely agree!
There is an optional extra though. If you have an Alex Gallagher in the ward, after all your SNP and pro-indy choices, put all the other unionists AFTER them and leave his box blank!
Theresa May is simply the UK’s latest fraudster Prime Minister. Who says so? Well, just about everybody, actually.
“The U.K. is really shooting themselves in the foot and it is going to get ugly,” said Nouriel Roubini, professor of economics at the New York University Stern School of Business. “The risk is that the U.K. will stagnate at 1 percent growth for the next five years.”
@yesindyref2 9.38am
You can talk about STV system and splitting votes all you like even up until the Council Election but after the bitter experience of the Holyrood votes I would recommend only voting SNP.
We need to take a majority of the Councils next year.
You spent months trying to get folk to split the vote and vote Green at the Holyrood elections. That turned out well, didn’t it. Now we’re left with the divisive Greens.
Give it a rest!
@Flower of Scotland
The local elections with STV are absolutely totally different from the Holyrood Elections with AMS.
Totally different.
Completely
“You spent months trying to get folk to split the vote and vote Green at the Holyrood elections.!”
NO I DID NOT. I said SNP + SNP – check the fing record.
Indy= independence supporter, eg greens, wfi, ssp rise(remember them?), ie anyone other than snp.
nb. the term, Independent can mean a lot of things, if you have an independent candidate standing in your ward, find out his position regarding indyref2, if he is a unionists, as activists you must inform indy supporters in your ward of this fact.. with 350 odd wards and campaigns, dont expect guidance from the snp central office.
you are on your own this time
Which, if you had to choose..would it be..?
Your head up your arse? (a period of confusion)
Or your head in the sand and your arse in the air? (trusting the system, blind loyalty)
The answer is to ask that of your government / rulers.
Because the whole global financial system is by default a centre / centre-right creation..
Administrators & representatives must be experts IN THAT SYSTEM.
To lunge to the left immediately will expose and risk current shared wealth. If the levers are replaced with different tools, even applying the brakes would be an experimental act.
To lunge to the right, as in England, shows off a national bloody-minded-ness.
The SNP fits Scotland well, just left of centre, leaning both ways if required, a wide party, welcoming internal national conversations and being inclusive.
@Flower of Scotland
Oh – and GTF.
I think that was directed at me indyref2,
but you are correct, council elections totally different beast.
FOS
over 33% of seats in all 5 wards in NEF, wont be contested by the snp.
very difficult to win a majority. If the activists are so ignorant about this system, what hope for the voters?
what dont you agree with?
rules for voters
No 1
Never vote for any Unionist on any ballot paper in any ward anywhere in Scotland
No 2
First Learn rule number one
No 3
If there are no Indy candidates on your ballot paper, Stand as a candidate yourself or destroy your ballot paper or don’t vote at all
No 4
If there is only one Indy supporting candidate on your ballot. vote for him/her, regardless of which party or none they represent.
feel free to continue to carp from side lines FOS
OT: Don’t you just love the comments by the Ultra-Britnats below this article :-
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/only-independence-referendum-protect-scotland-150327094.html
@schrodingers cat
Thanks, yes, we did have our discussions 🙂
@yesindyref2 10.51am
I am a 70 year old woman, as other,s on here who know me from Wings nights out can testify, so please don’t be so aggressive. It’s nasty!
I will have my say though. Please only vote for SNP. who are an amalgamation of all thoughts and politics. Voting Green is a complete waste of a vote.
Just because there are up to 4 choices you only need one if there,s only one SNP candidate!
Sorry folks, and it might just be me who feels this way,
I admire your enthusiasm and dedication, but all this, vote 1,2,3 SNP, then greens, no wait! vote 1,2 SNP, then greens 3, maybe 4, . No, hang on scrap that, vote 1, SNP, then 2,3,4 etc,,,etc,,,No, here is the definitive idea, vote 1,2 SNP, then Greens 3, then don’t vote 4, then, wait this is/isn’t STV, hang on, maybe try this instead…and on and on it goes.
I am sure it may be of interest to some.
The real problem (as it always has been with councils) is getting people to actually vote at all.
Once again the Twattery of the vote splitters arises again with loads of reasons why you basically shouldn’t vote SNP but insead vote for “Another Indy party”
I’m going to spoil the fun right there and say there are no other Indy supporting parties “Greens” youl’d have to take a Black and Decker drill to my head before I’d do that and even then I might be able to resist
All the other wee names are popping up as well to split the vote even more, touted by the ever so wise people “with no agenda” BTW just Independence they say, My Arse!
This tactic partially succeeded last time and look where we are, 2 MSPs short, and that should be enough answer for anybody
Folk would be entitled to say I’ve got and agenda and they’d be right, I’d like to win everything for Scotland just simply by voting SNP
Folk come up with the “We need a strong opposition” argument, no we don’t, the electorate is the strongest opposition to any government but because of our population size the voters are actually the best oppositon
Ultimate power for the government of the day means ultimate responsibility to the voters because we can wipe an entire political party out at one election because we have a small population we’ve already shown that
People might argue the personal vote “Oh this guy’s good I’ll vote for him” I would argue that’s been tried and you end up again cutting down the majority you need in the party who can deliver by giving your vote to some guy who in his whole life even if he’s a serious person, will achieve nothing except to take up space from somebody who can vote the way you need them to vote
I don’t have posters on my wall of Nicola Sturgeon or John Swinney or slogans, SNP are FAB, I joined the SNP to help get Independence and that’s it, although I do think the FM and the party are miles and miles above anything else in Scotland, or England for that matter, if they manage to get us Independence then I’ll be a big fan and I might even buy a poster in grateful thanks but up until then no other political party exists except as the opposition, unless the SNP Bugger it all up of course coz then I’ll vote for… Ooh..well..that’s a problem now isn’t it
I have ranted my wee rant that is mine and I hold myself responsible for it and there’s nae point in shoutin at me coz that’s what I think
And now I’m away Oot
Media full of rubbish today about Scotland ‘winning’ new powers. Why do we have to ‘win’ powers? Where does this concept originate? Come out of the EU with England, and we ‘might’ let you ‘win’ some new powers from your benevolent colonial overlords in Westminster. What a promise.
Utter nonsense in other words.
Local Government Elections – The Rules 2011
Having just read the Rules 2011, from start to finish, I’m speechless.
If the Rules were a recipe for a cake, then no one would ever be bothered to make such a cake.
Or, if every voter had to sit an examination of their knowledge and understanding of these rules, then I would suggest that few people would pass the exam.
A key element in the Single Transferable Vote system is, of course the ‘Surplus Vote’. This is where the spaghetti really hits the fan.
The Rules explain the ‘how’ of STV and the allocation of surplus votes, and the why of it is fairly obvious too. However, there is one glaring defect in STV, which is obvious in our current politics, whereby we have two, and maybe 3, if not 4, separate and distinct Parties in an Alliance. This changes the very nature of the ballot from voting to win a seat, to voting to stop another party winning. While this is not new in politics, in the Unionist Alliance which is very real in Scotland today, the value of the Surplus vote has greatly increased and been given deadly effect, as we have seen recently in several Local Authority Council elections.
There is now in Scotland, an established Unionist Alliance which has been created so as to create a built-in advantage to the Unionists. The SNP no longer have 3 rivals splitting the vote, but rather 1 consolidated rival of 3 in 1 – the Unionist Alliance.
For election purposes therefore, Labour, Conservative and LibDems are no longer standing in opposition to each other, but instead, are engaged in active cooperation to defeat the SNP, and thereby to preserve the UK in its present corrupted form.
Further evidence, if any were required, that politics in Scotland is driven by Unionist desire to preserve the British Establishment and English Rule, by the tactics of Fear&Smear – and manipulating elections.
Aye, I heard the eminent prof on radio shortbread this morning not telling us anything really except another referendum is just too scary to contemplate.
What with all these new powers an such like init!
Aye right!
Calling second independence referendum might cause greater division than Brexit poll, warns leading academic
https://archive.is/UfiFS
David Torrance: Trapped between a nostalgic Brexit fantasy and an unconvincing independence vision
“So here we are, trapped between a nostalgic Brexit fantasy and a still unconvincing independence vision. Scots can now choose between the jingoistic claptrap emerging from a divided Conservative Party or the fluffier nationalism that’ll undoubtedly be offered up at the SNP conference in Glasgow later this week. It isn’t much of a choice”.
Long convoluted version is here. 🙁
https://archive.is/yC5R6#selection-2395.1-2395.340
Media full of rubbish today about Scotland ‘winning’ new powers.
Another at the UKOK coal face. For toryboy radicals out there. What must it be like being an actual professional liar, for ever?
Kenny Farquharson ?@KennyFarq 6m6 minutes ago
A radical thought: it might be possible to believe in independence but still actively pursue more power for Holyrood within post-Brexit UK.
Kenny Farquharson ?@KennyFarq 1h1 hour ago
Kenny Farquharson Retweeted Jim Gallagher
Good stuff from Jim Gallagher on how Sturgeon can use Brexit to win historic gains for Scotland, within a reformed UK. #neoindependenceKenny Farquharson added,
Jim Gallagher @ProfJimG
Brexit: Britain’s mistake might just be Scotland’s opportunity, in today’s #daily_record
@Robert Louis
there was an interview on GMS this morning with a Professor Jim Gallagher? which sounded completely orchestrated from start to finish, with leading questions, etc, lets play impartial interviewer interviews expert. New powers, blah blah, EU bad, but independence so difficult, borders, deficit, etc… a good one for GA Ponsonby to analyse.
The real problem (as it always has been with councils) is getting people to actually vote at all.
correct 100%
these rules are generalisations for 350 different ward campaigns, they are designed to cover as many eventualities as possible. They are not for SNP supporters only. but for all independence supporting individuals.
eg, if you are snp and if you have 2xsnp and 1x green candidates in your ward,
vote snp 1&2 or snp 1&2greens3. what ever floats yer boat. as i have said on this thread, it probably wont make any difference to the greens and isnt worth getting hot a sweaty about it.
more important is that voters realise that they should never vote for a unionist, ever.
@Robert Louis
Westminster, that being everyone in the HoC and Hol, have already ruled out those powers in both the Smith Commission talks and the Scotland Bill debates. Every amendment put forward from the SNP (which is basically the Scottish benches) was quite categorically binned out of hand. Mainly because they could and almost certainly as a spiteful act of public punishment for both Scotland and its representatives, but binned nonetheless.
Perhaps thone academic or indeed the publications giving his theory an outing weren’t paying attention? Either way, the Scottish electorate should trust the Westminster political class to deliver yet more wondrous powerrrs why precisely?
Honest guv, this time we really, really, really mean it! Near Federalism and we’ll throw in a cuddly toy t’boot.
FFS!
indeed, because snp supporters voting 3rd choice for other smaller indy parties isnt going to make much difference to them, these guidelines are more revelevant to the smaller parties and not the snp.
From Derek Bateman:-
I totally respect the Greens and their agenda but I don’t vote for it. I didn’t vote for it in May because I wanted an SNP majority to prevent exactly the kind of petty gamesmanship we saw this week. If the vote was on a substantive motion, for example to allow fracking to go ahead, I expect Greens to do their duty irrespective of warm words to the SNP pre-vote. But I don’t expect them to play along with the glib and shallow Sarwar in point-scoring. I don’t expect them to show us how bold, daring and progressive they are by voting with the Tories. I don’t expect them to overturn health decisions made by local boards in the interests of the people they serve. Despite my cynicism, expressed forcefully before May last year about spreading votes around, even I am dismayed.
The believe the prof spouting rubbish in the herald is a member of this clown show
http://www.scotlandinunion.co.uk/our_team
OT
On a wee trip to North Queensferry to show my son the Colossus straddling the Forth as it nears completion. It really is a great feat of engineering and of course we would still be talking about a replacement bridge being proposed had the SNP not been in charge.
Walking through the main street I just overheard Forth 1 asking a local resident what her emotional reaction is to the news of “further delays on the new bridge”.
Honestly- I despair at the mindset in Scotland embraced by the media.
@Nana
Ayup, can’t say as that comes as much of a shock Nana. 😀
Dr Jim, likewise I will not vote green second or third.
I might vote Green after independence.. But it won’t be run by the current pseudo liberal saps.
Harvey/Greens..just look a wee bit into the future..no past your tenure as leader , the future you know..the think you are supposed to have an enlightened position on.
@Dr Jim11.53
I fair like your wee rant!
@Nana
Thanks Nana… My goodness jigsaws are easy when someone sees the connection and shows you…. all in place now. 🙂
Glasgow City Council wants action to ‘mitigate Brexit impact’
https://archive.is/5ZUGr
@Macart
Can not think why the herald has not mentioned his connection with ultra britnats, can you Macart? Coming up with more promises and maybe this and that just makes their desperation seem more evident.
I reckon with the snp conference coming round the britnatery will be screaming smears from every source for the next few days.
The more they screech the less believable they are.
OT
Seems the City of London and London are calling for their Independence
http://www.cityam.com/249244/future-london-city-edging-towards-independence
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/wouldnt-you-prefer-to-be-president-sadiq-thousands-back-campaign-for-sadiq-khan-to-declare-londons-a3280141.html
To me it looks more and more like we are heading for a Federal UK.
@Nana
Heh! They can scream all they like. I’m afraid they are so much white noise to me these days and quite possibly to many others too.
I reckon you’re right enough though. You can tell they’re winding up with their usual precision timing.
@call me dave
I’m a dab hand with puzzles, the more difficult they seem the better.
Some time ago there was a debate [if you could call it that] with the mad history woman, Gallagher and Archie Mcpherson.
I laughed when one of them said it was a ‘full house’ well judge for yourself
http://archive.is/JAuVH
Good piece by Taranaich.
https://wildernessofpeace.wordpress.com/2016/10/10/non-sit-pondus-nec-distinccio/comment-page-1/#comment-1862
FOS
fair enough, but bateman is addressing the situation scotland wide.
the problem with the HE was people making claims about the list vote wrt to the whole of scotland when the list vote was regional.
this is even more critical and important for council elections.
eg FOS, if you live in Cupar, you are tasked to ensure that at least 2 of 3 candidates, who support indy, get elected. It is your job to check out the candidates in Cupar, find out who are unionists and those who support indy and inform the electorate. You also need to convince greens etc, to vote snp as 2nd and 3rd choice. and no one else.(as i have said, you can ask snp supporters to vote snp1&2 and green 3, or not… it wont make much difference in cupar, so not really worth arguing about)
why? because very shortly, after the ce and the brexit button is pushed, there will be a face off between sturgeon and may regarding indyref2. If fife council has a unionist majority, who do you think they will support?. Since it is fife council who organise all elections and referendums, we could be in a situation where the rest of scotland votes in indyref2 and fife doesnt.
as i said, you are tasked to win a majority in your ward, no where else. same as the rest of us. I will, along with the other snp members in my ward will assess the candidates and decide what our best options are, not you or derek bateman. If we only have 1 x snp and 1 x green/ssp/independent candidates standing in our 3 candidate ward, and the green/ssp/independent candidate supports indy, then we will campaign snp1green/ssp/independent2. and no one else.
o/t The SG backs a third runway at Heathrow as it will create 16,000 jobs??…Sorry but can someone explain to me why are we supporting more infrastructure in the S.E. of England when we are aiming to tell them to gtf with Brexit et al?
I heard an Enviro spokesman making the point that if you build another runway down there, why would business come up here? Surely we should be building up Prestwick for this purpose. And what about investing in our ports? I’ve seen some encouraging estimates for expanding our ports and solving the question of imports and exports being accounted to England that are actually Scottish in origin and destination.
From a brief glance at the way it works it seems that effectively if more than enough people vote for someone then the same proportion of every vote for them is used up and the rest moved on to subsequent choices.
For instance if someone gets 125% of the quota they only needed 80% of each individual vote value cast. The remaining 20% of those VVs is then passed to the next choice. In effect each time part of your vote helps elect someone the remainder passes to someone else. Which in turn means that you can vote for all the successful candidates.
An example, assume in a 3 seat ward all the supporters stick to a suggested party order and 78% vote for A with their second and third choices being B and C.
As it’s a three seat ward the quota is just over 25%. A is elected on 1/3rd of the votes. 2/3rd are passed on to B. B then needs 1/2 of those to be elected so 1/2 are passed on to C. Effectively 1/3 of each vote goes to each candidate.
An important thing to note is that as the quota is checked after each redistribution of votes there’s no point in voting for an alternative independence candidate ahead of the SNP if it’s them you support. Unless one or more of your parties candidates is a complete dick head.
On the other hand if everyone follows a party list it’s possible that one of the higher numbered might be eliminated before votes are transferred that might elect them. Short of some agreed voting pattern the best bet might be to only field the number of candidates you think will win and let random chance combined with popularity deal with it.
To Tam Jardine on 10 October, 2016 at 12:23 pm:
Well done, Tam! You’re taking your son to witness history in the making. A landmark achievement and a taster of how Scotland can progress under proper government, not to mention the symbolism of what Scotland has always been about – Building bridges via Science, Engineering, progress and invention. Good decision Tam!
As for Radio Forth? They’re owned by Bauer Media Group, nuff said!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bauer_Media_Group
Yesterday!
MPs ‘will get say’ on Brexit legislation, says Scottish Conservative MSP
https://archive.is/rF1H5
A few minutes ago!
No MPs’ vote on Brexit terms, says May
https://archive.is/iqypt
btw Thanks Nana for the link to the Britunion mob. Archie ‘Woof’ McPherson?… the only thing educated about the big man is his left fit…or in his case more likely it’s the right one.
Dr Jim
the fact you talk about splitting the vote in an stv electoral system shows you dont understand how it works.
If you are snp and dont want to vote snp 1&2 greens 3, dont. vote snp 1&2 only. it wont make any difference. but if you are campaigning in your ward, tell and greens you meet to vote green1 and snp 2&3, cos that may make a difference
but the rules i posted hae a far more important point for all of us, do not be tempted to vote for a unionist as a 4th 5th or 6th choice, any where in scotland. This may sound obvious to (some) people on this thread but the vast majority of voters in scotland dont understand the stv system
re irvine west, 1200 snp votes for sturgeons dad, but 300 of them voted slab as a 2nd choice….. ?
you need to inform the indy voters in your ward, all of them, what their choices are. thats why rule no 1 is, Never vote for a unionist, rule no 2, first learn rule no 1. This is true for every ward in scotland and every supporter of independence
there’s no point in voting for an alternative independence candidate ahead of the SNP if it’s them you support.
that is correct.
orri, better if you post which ward you’re in and show how the votes were actually distributed in 2012. that way foot note explainations will show people how the system works. It would be more use for others in your ward to have the actual numbers with them
Short of some agreed voting pattern the best bet might be to only field the number of candidates you think will win and let random chance combined with popularity deal with it.
there is a chance where if you have 2 snp candidates and snp voters in your ward randomly vote snp 1&2 or SNP 2&1 that 3 unionists candidates meet the quota before a SNP candidate is eliminated and his 2nd preferences are counted.
I think if you were to run some kind of voting tactic in your ward it would really depend on the specifics of your ward, It will be up to the activists on the ground in their ward to decide and assess this. with 350 different ward campaigns, dont expect help from central snp office in making this decision.
schrodingers cat (and others engaging in voting system discussions)
A genuine plea to all of you – will one of you please create an article on this subject and submit it to the Rev for consideration?
Not only is this becoming tiresome for many of us seeing threads hijacked with this sort of discussion but i for one would love to produce a link straight off the bat as soon as someone attempts to raise the subject or enquire as to its workings etc.
I’ve also asked Robert Peffers to do the same with his knowledge on Sovereignty issues etc but so far all pleas have fallen on deaf ears. Yous hold a lot of excellent knowledge (or ammunition) but the only thing you achieve by scattering it all over the place is holes in the boat by driving people away.
PLEASE, footsoldiers like me need quick easy access to these materials all under their own links. Will yous please consider my suggestions and write articles about it? We need the ammo!
re Heathrow 3rd runway. I’m sure the SNP will have done their homework on this one and there would be a net benefit for Scotland to get more Heathrow slots. I am sceptical about the number of jobs quoted though.
At the end of the day we have eff all influence as usual, but for me, there is the entertainment of winding up the EVEL and Heathrow NIMBY brigades and have them frothing about Scottish interference in English affairs.
Tam
Some of us North Queensferryans are just delighted the SG had the foresight to give the bridge the go ahead when they did.
It is currently being worked on 24/7 and it’s a privilege to watch such a feat of engineering taking shape.
England will build another runway in London.
Do we want easy connection or further marginalisation.
Grow up, we are forging a new nation with the world still turning.
@Flower of Scotland
“I am a 70 year old woman, as other,s on here who know me from Wings nights out can testify, so please don’t be so aggressive. It’s nasty!”
but you posted an outright lie:
“You spent months trying to get folk to split the vote and vote Green at the Holyrood elections. That turned out well, didn’t it. Now we’re left with the divisive Greens.
Give it a rest!”
And you’re playing the sympathy card? Try an apology.
The SNP lost the Holyrood majority because voters gave away their second vote. Vote SNP/SNP only – every vote or voters cancel out their vote. Do not give away your vote.
Heathrow should supply internal slots in any case. Thatcher centralised the transport system through London. BA was given subsidised slots at Heathrow to provide internal services. BA is now Spanish owned. Does it still have subsidied slots? BA has it’s own terminal. Scotland should establish more direct routes. Traveller customer service would benefit. Instead of overnight stay for early flights etc. Brexit could mean less travellers coming to the UK.
the best bet might be to only field the number of candidates you think will win
this is correct and why the snp decision to not contest at least 33% of candidate seats as already been taken.
bear in mind tho orri, when you review the results from the stv ce in 2012, it becomes apparent that their will be people in your ward who will vote snp1ukip2 or fluffybunnies1vladtheimpalor2… there is nothing as queer as folk etc. This will happen again in 2016, and you wont be able to convince everyone in your ward to do otherwise, anymore than i can convince dr jim or fos, the object of all campaigns will be to convince as many as you can and first and foremost to GOTV.
Anent, Tam Jardine’s visit to North Queensferry to view the Colossus, I thought Broon had mebbes been let oot for the day?
Graeme Doig on 10 October, 2016 at 2:07 pm:
GRrrrr! My envy levels have just went through the roof.
Lochside at 125pm,
If reports are correct, then I agree with you, what on earth are the SNP thinking? Yay, invest in Heathrow, and we ‘may’ get some jobs and ‘may’ have more flights available to London.
Seems to me some SNP have really lost the focus. I really couldn’t give a flying **** if Heathrow, in the South East corner of England gets another 1, 2 or ten runways. Seriously.
Maybe it just seems important to SNP Westminster MP’s who use Heathrow.
With a new third runway at Heathrow, just watch as long haul services direct from Scotland get cut, so the airlines’ jets can be used down there, with more slots and more profits.
Meanwhile, the SNP seem content with empty promises of ‘jobs’ and well.. nothing. Jeez! YOU WILL GET NONE OF THOSE THINGS.
Here’s an idea for the SNP, why are you not putting forward your OWN proposal? If we take it for granted that it really is a wonderful ‘United Kingdom’, then surely, with the airline density in the crowded skies over London what the UK needs is a massive new airport, purpose built, with infrastructure already in place, with a very, very long runway, fully equipped for CAT3 or whatever landings, open airspace, good transport links (prestwick has its very own train station), and masses of space for expansion – in essence a NEW UK airline hub for the UK, funded by massive capital investment from Westminster. Do I need to spell it out? – Prestwick.
THAT is the kind of thing I expect our SNP MP’s to be proposing, instead of this third runway at LHR rubbish, which will only ever benefit the South East corner of England.
A few articles from the SNP site:
‘Scotland’s finances: economic recovery in the EU or economic retreat with Brexit.’
‘GERS tells us about the status quo and very little about the opportunities of independence.
Scotland is rich in human talent and natural resources. But we lack the economic levers to maximise growth in our economy, and invest according to our own priorities. Even after the Smith Commission powers are fully implemented, 71 per cent of taxes raised in Scotland will be controlled in Westminster. And, our ability to grow our population – and our tax base – is limited by the UK Government too.
With independence, the Scottish Government could design policies that are tailored to Scotland’s – not the UK Government’s – circumstances.
Dr Andrew Goudie, former chief economist to the Scottish Government, said in 2003 that GERS “tells us nothing … about the situation under independence.”
http://www.snp.org/scotland_economy_gers_brexit
……….
What are the powers of the Scottish Parliament?
http://www.snp.org/pb_what_are_the_powers_of_the_scottish_parliament
……….
What powers does the Scotland Act 2016 devolve to the Scottish Parliament?
http://www.snp.org/pb_what_powers_does_the_scotland_act_2016_devolve
Stoker
i think after 400 comments under a cartoon article it is acceptable to waver off topic, if there is indeed one.
I hae already posted an article wrt, albeit btl, on previous threads, although after new threads have been posted. The rev even joined the discussion and Im sure if we wanted to post an article about this he is more than capable.
what I will say again is the problem in the holyrood elections was people posting up opinions etc as if the list vote was scotland wide when it was regional. with the 2016 ce, this issue is exaserbated x 100. one article is incapable of covering issues every ward (350). my post with rules was an attempt to cover as many bases as possible which were relevent to all wards. with varying degrees of success.
what would be better is if youy say which ward you are in so we could post the results from that ward from 2012, with footnotes explaining how the notes were distributed and comments from wingers discussing the best options for that specific ward. bear in mind stoker, with 350 different wards, it wont be possible to do this for all of them, but if we did a few, peoples understanding of the system would increase to a point they would be able to do it for themselves for their own wards.
come to think of it stoker, i think that btl is a better way of doing this, decisions of what is the best tactic for a ward will be based on local knowledge. probability being the best guide and not absolutist positions,
yesindyref2 says:
10 October, 2016 at 2:11 pm
@Flower of Scotland
as i said dads, i think she meant me not you
@Lochside
If Heathrow was to cost £18.6 billion, that would take £1.7 billion of Scottish contribution. But the SNP want FULL Barnett consequentials, so Scotland would get back that £1.7 billion. So the nett sum is £0 cost to Scotland.
BUT Sturgeon and Co wanted an end to austerity, investment in growth, and the UK Government to borrow more money to grow the economy. Osborne didn’t want to do that.
What Heathrow would mean is the UK Government would borrow £18.6 billion, and Scotland would get our £1.7 billion share.
Sturgeon wins.
Chris Cairns
BTW, just to let you know, i’ve just taken my first foray into promoting your works with this ‘Mayfly’ masterpiece. I have transferred it into an A1 (single) poster for domestic display.
All credits (signature etc) included.
My next step is to mass produce your works onto leaflets (one side) with WOS facts and details on the other side. Just awaiting delivery of said poster to check out the glossy print quality.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/going-postal–4#/
@schrodingers cat
Yeah, and she would have read your posting making it obvious she had got it wrong and hence being “nasty”, but instead of apologising for the first totally wrong and unprovoked attack on me, she comes out with another one.
I tell it as it is.
Re that third runway. I noted that on Disreporting Jackie. The usual SNP BAAHD rhetoric was pretty muted for them I thought.
That initial thought aside I laughed at the NIMBY Tories that don’t want it so it is a case of GIRUY.
My own view is that the SG/SNP shouldn’t be touching either a third runway at Heathrow or a second one at Gatwick with a proverbial.
The argument/propaganda that this “could” bring 16,000 jobs or whatever the figure was to Scotland doesn’t wash with me. The idea that such a development in South East Brexit Land will bring any kind of benefit to the rest of the glorious UKOK is laughable. The Billions spent on the London Brit Nat Neo Fascist show that was the Olympics certainly didn’t.
Re the Council elections and the STV vote. The Greens in my neck of the woods are nothing more or less than NIMBY Tories in drag. There isn’t a chance in hell I will put them 1,2,3, 4 etc when the elections come. It will be SNP 1 and 2 and that is it and nor will any of the sleeping Kippers that are passing themselves off as Independents get any preference votes either.
It will be up to others in other Council Areas to decide what they have to do or need to do with their preference votes but in Moray I am going to be SNP 1 and 2 because as sure as hell the Yoons with be kissing each others arses. The Greens I know here in Moray are either lukewarm to Scots Indy or downright hostile to it.
schrodingers cat (@2:28pm)
“come to think of it stoker, i think that btl is a better way of doing this,”
I don’t so we’ll just have to agree to disagree on that issue.
I couldn’t care less what and when you post btl (just as long as it’s not direct links supporting the BUM media etc 😉 ) but my point was that activists such as me need this ammo all under one roof (or link) rather than having it all over the place.
An article followed by btl comments, including all the various ‘Ward’ tips and footnotes, would provide such a handy link for us activists and would be a godsend and top class time saving bit of kit.
I reiterate, please consider?
@yesindyref2
No lie. I’ve argued with you many times on here before the May elections about splitting the vote.
I’m a socialist but would never vote for Labour
I’m in favour of a green agenda but would never vote for the Greens.
Why would I when we have a left of centre party with a green agenda in the SNP.
Why waste your vote. That’s what the vote splitters want. Vote SNP in May as many times as possible but only for the SNP. If you want Independence for Scotland, the SNP are the ONLY party able to deliver that.
Two bonkers voting systems with one common denominator- We Can’t Change Either of them if we could , the power to do so would soon be removed .
Vote Green and return to the horse and cart , now that would really make them happy , A perfect day for a green voter is when they see One person on a bike on a narrow road followed by Twenty cars and countless number of buses , fantasy you say , Nope used to see this sight every morning on my way to Stirling ah progress ain’t it wonderful.
The next council elections will be fought around the Independence issue. There will be a great number of Unionist voters who day normally vote Tory but will think nothing of giving their second vote to a labour candidate if they believe it will keep out an SNP candidate.
In many councils in Scotland the SNP may well be the largest party but will need the support of non Unionist councillors if they are to control the council.
That’s the point I believe Schrodingers cat is trying to make. If Independence is your goal then on no account make a Unionist one of your choices. Consider though supporting all Independence supporting candidates in your own order of preference.
This is not about electing a green as such but that for every Indy supporting councillor we have one less Unionist.
Above all this gives the SNP the greatest chance of controlling more councils.
This could be a significant factor in our chances of winning a second referendum. For example anyone remember the anti Indy letter sent out by Unionist controlled Aberdeen council to every voter at tax payers expense?
We can avoid that with SNP controlled councils but many councils will likely need support from other parties in order to prevent the three Unionist parties ganging up together. Which they will.
Rancid the Graun poll showing UK likes that fly emerging. No mention of you know who so presumably its England only polling.
3h ago
11:52
Guardian/ICM poll gives Tories 17-point post-conference lead
Political parties normally expect a modest post-conference bounce in the polls (because, if they are half-competent at PR, they can generally create a large quantity of mostly favourable media coverage) but the Conservatives will be delighted with the latest findings from the regular Guardian/ICM poll. It gives them a 17-point lead.
Here are the new figures, and how they compare to the previous Guardian/ICM polling figures from early September, before the conference season started.
Conservatives: 43% (up 2)
Labour: 26% (down 2)
Ukip: 11% (down 2)
Lib Dems: 8% (down 1)
Greens: 6% (up 2)
The fieldwork was carried out from Friday to Sunday.
The 17-point lead is the joint second highest ever recorded for the Conservatives by ICM in its polling series going back to 1992. They only once got a higher lead (20 points in June 2008, when Gordon Brown was at his most unpopular) although in September and October 2009 they also had a 17-point lead in ICM polls.
@Flower of Scotland
What can I say? You are totally absolutely completey 100% and utterly WRONG. As Cat says, you are confusing me with Cat.
I said tactical voting was dangerous, I was voting SNP+SNP, but like Rev said, people should vote for their own party.
If you are going to persist in your wrong, erroneous, totally misremembered lie, rather than checking back and seeing what I did say rather than what your imaginiation says I says, then I have nothing more to do with you, except to presume you are a divisive troll.
Jesus, it’s bad enough getting this misrepresentation from Unionists, I’m out of here.
Graeme Doig, Stoker
What an amazing project. Re Forth One- it was interesting to see journalism at work. I thought a young woman was having a friendly chat with an elderly neighbour so convivial was the discussion. That was just preparing the ground before the microphone comes out. Then the nice leading question: “What’s your emotional reaction to the news of the further delays to the new bridge” or similar.
Whatever her actual feelings on the matter, this suggests to the lady that she must have an emotional reaction to the news. It also suggests there have been delays plural so far.
Quite what difference a few months here or there make in the grand scheme of things, particularly to an lady, presumably retired living in North Queensferry who has perfectly functional transport links across the water I am not sure.
I always marvel at undue haste or fear of schedules slipping in these matters. With bridges the key is to build them properly…. it’s not a case of chucking on extra subbies and beasting it over a long-weekend.
It might be instructive to list the big infrastructure projects by the SNP in the last 9 years and those by slab and the lib dems in the 8 years before then. And then look at the infrastructure projects completed in the decade before. Scotland is a work in progress but it is hard to deny that progress is being made.
Quite something viewing it from the rail bridge.
Fred
As for GB spanning the Forth… we’ve reached the stage, just like with the Friday 13th and the final Freddy Kreuger films where the villain of the piece has become a parody of his former self and every lame addition to the canon is treated with derision. It would be Cloverfield 7 HD: Mission to North Queensferry and I would probably skip it.
@ Stoker says at 2:05 pm …. ”PLEASE, footsoldiers like me need quick easy access to these materials all under their own links. Will yous please consider my suggestions and write articles about it? We need the ammo!”
EXACTLY Stoker. We need some sort of archive on here where we can access information at a moments notice. We’re going round and round the garden with one issue after another. Off-putting for lurkers? I reckon so.
Better still the SNP should have an archive …. AND be ‘educating’ the 124,000 members for starters instead of us all (some of the 124,000) scrabbling around, on sites like this, looking for information that we require to influence others. What a TOTAL waste of resources …. US …. Scotland’s greatest asset of all. Hopefully the next Depute Minister, maybe Tommy Sheppard, will deal with this issue ASAP.
Divide 4 million (approx electorate) by 124,000 and you get 32 people. Less so per household. The SNP could devise an ‘educational flyer’ that we could then post through letter boxes / use the data to speak to people face to face. Our ‘education’ could be updated when necessary.
This educational flyer could include a brief mention about sovereignty because as we all discuss this on here millions of people in Scotland don’t have a clue about it at all. It’s not even mentioned on the SNP site under ‘Constitution’. In fact the educational content of the SNP site leaves a lot to be desired. No mention of Scottish assets. No mention of the truth in relation to State pension and so on.
The sovereignty issue is interesting but is it actually the key issue to winning the next Referendum other than the fact that when the majority of ‘sovereign’ Scots want Independence nothing and no one can stop us from getting it.
On the link that Nana posted previously (8:19am) John Nicolson states that to win Indyref2 ”we have to be well prepared and go into Indyref2 with a coherent clear set of arguments especially about the economy because we lost the first indyref on the economy. We can’t lose again and we therefore have to make sure that our economic arguments are iron clad.”
I totally agree with him. This is what’ll push the numbers up in conjunction with Theresa May’s Brexit disaster and her (and others) attitude towards the Scots.
To my mind it’s down to the Scottish economy. Will we have enough LSD, Euros (if that lasts!) or whatever to support an Independent Scotland? We need facts and figures such as relating to ”the renewable energy sector is going to be more lucrative than the oil sector (over the last 40 years).”
Who has the relevant ‘economic’ facts and figures and when are they going to be passed onto us?
yesindyref2 says: @ 2.31…Hope you are correct. Sounds too good to be true. But the SG must have a motive for this, if it’s this , then fine.
ouis.b.argyll says:
10 October, 2016 at 2:08 pm
England will build another runway in London.
Do we want easy connection or further marginalisation.
Grow up, we are forging a new nation with the world still turns’
The only one that needs to grow up is you buddy! Questioning closer links with the UK State at this juncture is perfectly acceptable. After all, are We not all in agreement on this site that we want dissolution of the Union asap? No-one is suggesting ‘further marginalisation’ except the Tories and Ukip as far as I can see
Fred
Aye right enough. Maybe that’s what all the clunking is through the night. 😉
OH dearie me..saying you don’t give a flying fook then proposing at length..that the SNP propose there own preference.
Ffs, the building of a Scottish runway isn’t an option in London’s proposed new runway planning process.
Should they abstain..no way. Are they politicking, absolutely.
hi stoker
i cant be more specific wrt you situation if i dont know which ward you are in, let me know and ill crunch the numbers, but in the meantime
for those who make grandoise statements based on their own areas about the whole of scotland, question for you
below is the results of st andrews from 2016, how many candidates should the snp stand in this ward? what should be their voting tactic?
ps apart from the green candidate, all others are ultra unionist.
St. Andrews – 4 seat
PartyCandidate Cnt 1 Cnt 2 Cnt 3 Cnt 4 Cnt 5 Cnt 6 Cnt 7 Cnt 8
Tory D. Morrison 769 796 820 843 889
SNP K. McCartney 690 706 725 806 838 867.1 867.4 979.3
LibDem F. Melville 641 665 772 858 1,189
Lab B.Thomson 600 629 647 742 776 828.8 829.2 951.2
Green B. Bridgman 437 453 464
Indy M. MacDonald 369 453 475 534 569 624.3 626.1
LibDem R. Waterston351 381 466 518
LibDem B. Sangster 298 311
Indy H. Paul 256
Electorate:14,331 Valid:4,411 Spoilt:32 Quota:883 Turnout:4,443 (30.78%)
fyi, the lib dems has 2 councillors in this ward, stood 3 candidates and won only 1 in this election.
Totally against a third runway for Heathrow. Ludicrous, already over congested, longs queues everywhere. Flight times extended due to waiting on slots for take off and landing g.
This is all about bringing more money directly into London and nothing about passenger convenience.
Expansion of direct international flights from Scotlands airports is what we want and the greatest benefit to Scotland and us that Clive here.
Petra @ 3.05pm…totally agree with you regarding accessible facts and figures. The WBB worked really well during the REF, but still had gaps in it, naturally because of the speed it was put together. The YES resources and SNP were too vague and wishy washy. It’s amazing that at this stage we still haven’t had the GERS figures completely deconstructed and debunked.
I’ve argued at branch meetings that this has to happen. Until Joe and Josie McPublic know exactly in a basic format what we raise and what we actually spend, along with what is dishonestly accredited as spend to us, there will always be a credibility gap.
No-one seems keen to go for civil disobediance, such as mass non payment of tv licences or mass marches without stewards, or for crowd funding to legally challenge the BBC’s constant breaches of its charter. Despite the fact that the REF campaign brought 15% more people on side with all the mass meetings, marches etc. So we are left with compiling all relevant data that was incomplete or not compelling enough last time.
Iain More
there are no council wide elections in scotland, there are only wards elections.
moray isnt a ward
Like it or not, SCOTTISH wealth WILL be SPENT on London’s infrastructure.
Should we sit back and let exclusively London-based MPs spend it as if it is a local planning issue
These projects/current budgets cannot be stopped by the SNP, only influenced by parliamentary process.
Future budgets however…
Petra says:
10 October, 2016 at 3:05 pm
@ Stoker says at 2:05 pm …. ”PLEASE, footsoldiers like me need quick easy access to these materials all under their own links. Will yous please consider my suggestions and write articles about it? We need the ammo!”
EXACTLY Stoker. We need some sort of archive on here where we can access information at a moments notice. We’re going round and round the garden with one issue after another. Off-putting for lurkers? I reckon so.
i disagree, im only trying to point out here, for the moment, that these elections will be fought on a ward by ward basis
seems obvious, but when people quote batemans views on the greens in general, or people start talking about moray council and other council areas, when there is no council wide election, only ward elections even in moray, it is quite clear that even this very basic concept eludes quite a number on this thread.
best to start with the basics
and with stv elections, nothing will be quick or easy
sorry, i dont like the system but that is what we have got,
once again, tell us which ward your in and we can look at the ward where you are, i take it that is where you will be campaigning, other wards are not your concern.
Threads a bogey.
Check out the revs twitter feed
‘Accidental timeline poetry’
Seriously its a lol belter if you fix the words to the song
Brilliant – best laugh on here for a while !
David Davis due to make Brexit statement around 4.15
http://www.parliament.uk/business/news/2016/october/statement-next-steps-in-leaving-the-eu-10-october-2016/
http://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/089204e3-e373-4f97-89e2-6a05d97801ad
schrodingers cat says:
10 October, 2016 at 3:20 pm
Iain More
“there are no council wide elections in scotland, there are only wards elections.
moray isnt a ward”
Sheesh I know that and all I am saying is that when it comes to the Council Election in Moray I wont be voting Green or Independent under any circumstances. It is up to others in other Council Areas to vote according to their knowledge of candidates in their Council area. In Moray I view the Greens I know as Tories in drag and the Independents as anti Scottish Kippers and thus I wont even entertain voting for any of them. I will not trust any of them as far as I can spit with dry mouth.
Understandable resistance to impending policy is no shock. Thinking that the SNP should just be anti-everything-southern, is contrary to current responsibility tothose who need representation.
I don’t want Heathrow expansion either.
What’s on the table is what our MPs vote for..should we abstain from hard choices like Labour?
Lochside..you say.. No-one is suggesting ‘further marginalisation’ except the Tories and Ukip as far as I can see..
So, faced with what the planners have put forward. How can the SNP avoid being marginalised – if they don’t approve one side or other.
Mhairi Hunter SNP your a star!
Cheers for Accidental timeline poetry #72
Yoons will describe it as vile frankly!
@petra 3:05
totally agree. You posted on here a while ago, a list of Scotlands fantastic resources. This is the sort of thing that should be common knowledge. Is it within Scotgov remit to advertise this? if not surely the SNP could do it? and I dont mean hidden away on a website, it has to be in your face big f off adverts in papers or something. Not arguments, not political, just facts that nobody can dispute.
Our 50+ MPs MUST HAVE TEETH and must BITE INTO the decision making process..for as long as we send them south.
Putting our foot down/in the door IS AS MARGINALISING AS IT IS FUTILE, under the WM system.
the Council Election in Moray I wont be voting Green or Independent under any circumstances. It is up to others in other Council Areas to vote according to their knowledge of candidates in their Council area.
thats the point im trying to make, there isnt going to be a moray council election, there will be an election in every ward in moray.
it wont be up to the other council areas to vote accordingly, it will be up to the individual wards, eg, in the st andrews ward, all the so called “independents” in 2012, were in fact closet unionists, they may be again in 2016, i dont know yet, but when the candidate lists for st andrews are finally publish, i will find out and inform the st andrews electorate of the views of the candidates.
this may not be the case else where, eg, there maybe an independent candidate standing in a ward in moray, who maybe not snp or indeed any party but is a big supporter of independence, if everyone listened to your advice, he or she wouldnt get elected?
you need to focus on your WARD, let others campaign in theirs as they see fit,
Corbyn effect or hard core conservative, neo fascist UK rules the waves stuff, popular? What ever happened to Ian Murray MP?
2h ago
13:55
Here is Andrew Cooper, the Conservative pollster, on the Guardian/ICM poll.
Follow
Andrew Cooper @AndrewCooper__
Labour 26% support = 8 million *votes for Socialism*. 1983 all over again.
1:38 PM – 10 Oct 2016
Edinburgh and Gatwick are owned by the same people so there’s probably sneaky stuff going on here by the SNP supporting Heathrow, maybe preventing monopoly stuff or just plain outright upsetting folk, but knowing how the SNP work politicking for sure
You can be positive they’re not doing it for Londons benefit, they have a plan, they always do
It’s that Alicsammin sneakyin aboot
Wave energy.
Interesting article in the Guardian online about the possibility that the Chinese may have indulged in a bit of industrial espionage with regards to the Pelamis project.
Apparently the Chinese now have a very similar project to the now defunct Pelamis scheme. There was a break-in at the company some weeks after a Chinese delegation visit in 2011 and some laptops were stolen – sounds like some pretty lax security but there you go.
Ever told a bad joke, accidently insulted someone or annoyed somebody with your clumsy attempts at play fighting and it goes wrong, made an exhibition of yourself at a works do, or at a wedding or even a funeral ?.
Hey-Ho, it’s not the end of the world, tomorrow’s another day, you can fix it, shit happens, occasionally things do go wrong, one reason to avoid twitter, or even posting online at the end of a hard day, not everybody is going to appreciate your razor sharp one liners, your hilarious, witty repartee and there is a more than fair chance, you will get pelters or if you’re lucky, just ignored.
A different matter though when you are the UK government, when you gather the great and the good, when you, announce to the world, your thoughts on Brexit…See! See!…We do have a plan.
Come closer, lean in and listen to this, to then proceed with the most xenophobic diatribe ever (publicly) made by any UK government, is not accidental, not due to, being late night tired, not some ‘off the cuff remarks’, not some badly timed jokes, these ‘thoughts’ are the product, of their highly paid advisors, their ‘think tanks’ and months of ‘planning’….they are as abhorrent, as they are unforgivable.
The mood music has changed; the ticking clock, now accompanied by the sound of a bell…ringing slowly.
On hearing the sound of the bell, tolling slowly (witnessing the fascists at the gates), most rational people would agree….it tolls for them….the Red/Blue/Orange Tory’s….it tolls for UKOK and….a farewell to arms.
#forwhomthebelltolls
Made the mistake of entering my email address on a how can a new runway benefit you form. Never did get an answer other than finding out that they’d put it on a list supporting the expansion. I should probably get round to having it removed.
Legerwood says:
10 October, 2016 at 3:57 pm
Wave energy.
Interesting article in the Guardian online about the possibility that the Chinese may have indulged in a bit of industrial espionage with regards to the Pelamis project.
Chinese knock off, boot leg renewable energy schemes from rancid now. If its Graun and Scotland, its all about the UKOK “Squirrel,” like yesterday’s MacKenna SNP smear thing, not tory bad for Graun twerps in Scotland, SNP.
Every time you look. Hope the “travellers” are Leave votes.
BBC Politics
33 mins ·
Many travellers buying foreign currency at some of the UK’s airports are now receiving less than one euro to the pound.
@indyref2 and FOS
you both argued consistently during holyrood for snp 1&2. fact
if you are going to fall out with each other wouldnt it be better to do this over an issue that you disagree with each other about?
call me old fashioned etc… thats what used to happen in discussions…. in the good old days etc.
@heedtracker
just bought some euros at E1.06 to the £1,
was told by the lassie who served me that I would have only get E0.96 to the £1 at airport.
@cat
Looking at those figures the most I’d be willing to chance assuming if I had reliable advanced polling would be 2 and even then only if I campaigned to ensure that all supporters filled all the SNP slots in any order. Even then it’s a bit of a gamble.
Look at how the LibDem votes get transferred. The remaining candidates don’t get even the starting votes of the candidate just eliminated. Being too ambitious means some of their votes got lost in transition. In this case it ultimately didn’t matter. However if there vote had been enough to support an additional seat those “lost” votes might have cost them it.
Flower of Scotland on 10 October, 2016 at 2:51pm:
“I’m in favour of a green agenda but would never vote for the Greens.”
Ditto! Perfectly put! Why would we? SNP are the only party we can truly rely on not to hold up Scottish independence as a possible bargaining chip.
_____
Petra on 10 October, 2016 at 3:05pm:
Well, nobody can say we didn’t try, Petra, however, i recall not that long ago reading somewhere the Rev saying that he will do something on the voting systems nearer the time so it looks like we’ll just have to wait until then.
I’m currently trying to search through all the WOS archives to make my own personal register of articles i want but i only got a few months into 2012 and my head was exploding, i had to stop because i wasn’t confidently clear on what i was trying to achieve.
So it’s back to the drawing board until i can come up with a clear plan and system of what i’m looking for and how i’m going to catalogue them etc. With well over 4000 articles and climbing it’s no easy task.
_____
schrodingers cat:
Och, it was worth a try, can’t blame me for trying! Thanks for the offer but i’ll be working on the ‘KISS’ principle (Keep It Simple Stupid) and urging folks to vote(s) SNP only. I live in the Scottish Borders where Labour are all but dead, the LibDems will whore themselves with anyone who shows them a duvet and the Con merchants are the biggest barrier to the SNP and freedom.
@schrodingers cat
We are both in N E Fife and I argued with you about the SNP/Green vote before May.
There was widespread outcry in the MSM Sept 8th, 2014 when sterling dropped to the ungodly rate of $1.61 based on the poll that put Indy in the lead. Fast forward to 2016 Brexit Britain and it is currently sitting at $1.24 !
http://archive.is/FinJH
Funnily enough, of the 3 other British expats that I work directly alongside, one is an Irish Unionist (who already has his passport for Eire) who is adamant that to return to Britain one time a year is more than enough, one has just bought a place in France for and one is a 30year+ Saudi resident who is currently planning his retirement to the Phillipines. Of the 3, the first 2 voted to Leave and have no intention of ever returning pernamently whilst the 3rd one has no intent of ever returning.
Was the ex-pat vote the one which swung the leave vote above 50% I wonder.
I don’t know if it is deliberate misinformation going on, but you don’t need to use all your votes in an STV election.
I want independence, so I only use 1 vote for the SNP.
Exactly Juteman.
By only 1 vote for SNP do you mean you only vote for one candidate even if there’s more than one or that you vote for them all? It’s kind of important.
@Juteman
In Dundee of the 8 wards there were two SNP candidates standing in each ward so I presume that “so I only use 1 vote for the SNP” means you used 1 vote for each SNP candidate?
If not you wasted an opportunity to have two SNP candidates in your ward to be elected by not using your second vote for SNP.
If it’s only SNP candidates you want then vote for as many SNP candidates are standing in your ward and in your order of preference. That maximises the chances of the number of seats the SNP will win.
I’m sure that Juteman meant that however many SNP candidates there are, they are the only ones that will get his vote.
If that’s what he meant, I will be doing the same.
The sentence quoted by Mundell (?) about Scotland being extinguished and appended to a renamed Kingdom of England is a selected fragment of a longer phrase that refused to even consider it.
The full context was that it was irrelevant as far as the independence debate went or not. He can misquote all he wants but it’s not the official stance of Westminster that such a merger took place. The official stance is more “and whit”
@ Al Dossary says at 4:54 pm …. ”There was widespread outcry in the MSM Sept 8th, 2014 when sterling dropped to the ungodly rate of $1.61 based on the poll that put Indy in the lead. Fast forward to 2016 Brexit Britain and it is currently sitting at $1.24 !
http://archive.is/FinJH
………..
@ Scot Finlayson says at 4:25 pm …. ”just bought some euros at E1.06 to the £1,
was told by the lassie who served me that I would have only get E0.96 to the £1 at airport.”
Thanks for the reminder guys. Let’s remind ‘lots’ of others.
And, eh, Brexit hasn’t even been triggered yet.
Watching the commons discussion on brexit.
As it is clear that the House of Commons will not be consulted by the government or inform the process in any significant way. If the Commons aren’t even going to get a look in Scotland has no chance of having any input in the process.
Just seen on the Rev’s twitter feed, that apparently Angus McNeil, SNP, MP, spoke fluent icelandic at a conference in Iceland. I know he’s a fluent gaelic speaker, but I had no idea he spoke Icelandic.
Talented people in the SNP.
Let’s say Nicola want’s a second referendum as I believe she does. Then in order to have one she is going to need the support of parliament in Holyrood, that means getting the support of the Green Party as the SNP has no overall majority.
Support of the Green party is assumed but of course not guaranteed that is the reality of the situation.
Any party that purports to support Independence is a friend of mine, the alternative are the Unionists who we all know would never support a vote for a second referendum.
I’m arguing for Independence not an SNP government in an Independent Scotland though I would be happy enough with that outcome. For this reason I wholeheartedly support the SNP as they will be the driving force towards my goal.
The fact though is that right now they are not a majority in Holyrood and may not be so in the future so without support from other pro Indy MSP’s we might never have a second referendum.
Scary thought.
We have to accept that the SNP may never increase support sufficiently to win Independence by themselves so why anyone would be against welcoming support from elsewhere is not understandable to me. Some people, around 8% or so of the Scottish electorate actually favour the Green party, I’m not one of them by the way but as long as they support Independence I see them as being “on our side”.
Exactly the same goes for the councils, SNP on their own may not have a majority that ensures they control the council, that extra 8% on their side may just swing the balance.
We shouldn’t be blinkered nor tribal. Labour are only tribal against the SNP and will have no problem falling into bed with the Tories and Lib Dems to deny SNP control of a council.
Let’s not be blinkered and instead be welcoming of support for Independence from wherever it comes from.
Only Independence matters, this in the first instance. Nothing else in my view anyway and that’s the main point.
@Thepnr
Can I gently point out that the reason that the SNP do not have a majority at Holyrood is because some were persuaded to give their second vote to the Greens in the May elections.
There,s always consequences!
I am only SNP until we get Independence.
Since when did Heathrow airport become friends of Scotland?
More direct flights from Scotland is the way- not 5 hour delays at Heathrow or flying over Scotland in order to have another flight and cost back home if you are coming across the Atlantic.
16000 jobs– c’mon its like Faslane — fantasy jobs. SNP get back on track please. Scotland first.
Bob Mack,
“@Rock,
The Treaty of Union is still in existence as far as I know. What you refer to is revolution (UDI). Nobody but nobody would deal with us under those circumstances.”
Liz g,
“Rock @ 9.06
The Scotland Act is written into Scottish law,why would you think otherwise?
It was able to be written in because the Parliament that wrote it has the authority to do so.”
The Scotland Act forbids the Scottish parliament from holding a legally binding independence referendum without Westminster’s approval.
Robert Peffers insists that the Scottish parliament does not need Westminster’s permission to hold an independence referendum.
Is Robert Peffers wrong?
I am against UDI but Robert Peffers’ version of history and “sovereignty” makes the Scottish parliament the voice of the Scottish people, not Westminster.
You are trying to answer but you are no experts like Robert Peffers.
Why can’t Robert Peffers answer a simple question if he is such an expert on these matters?
If the current Scottish parliament voted by a majority vote for independence, is there any SCOTTISH LAW that would make it ILLEGAL?
If there is, which one?
@Flower of Scotland
We have met more than once and I have no beef with you. In fact I like you very much as I admire your spirit and passion.
I know exactly where you are coming from as I well remember the arguments giving many more words than they deserved in the MSM in order to split the vote.
Please believe me when I say that you cannot harm the vote for the SNP by tacking on a vote for another pro Independence party if you such wish and I respect your decision not to in the next council elections.
My argument is to point out that by doing so though you may deny a Unionist councilor a seat an that could prove to be important as to how many Councils the SNP will ultimately control.
This is not a rerun of the Scottish election, it is a very different voting system, the vast majority of voters including me until recently have no idea of how it works.
Whatever you do, don’t do like 300 out of 1200 SNP supporters did in Nicola’s dad election and chose labour for their second choice. That is what cost him the chance of the seat.
DO not vote for any Unionist party. Choose SNP only if that is your preference. Voting for any other party AFTER your SNP choice will not harm your preferred candidate in any way but will boost the chances of one less Unionist being elected.
Hence giving the SNP a greater chance of running a council when they are the biggest party but need minority support.
That is all. I guess peope who are interested need to do as I did and as per usual look it up for yourself. You will get no direction from the media. Maybe the SNP will spell it out.
Who knows.
At the last council election in my area there were 7 names. Six were unionist supporting and one SNP.
I put the mark against SNP and ignored the rest. I’m assuming that was right?
Hi, Thepnr
I would NEVER vote for a Unionist, not ever!
Maybe see you at the next Wings night out! ?
@BJ
You were 100% right!
@Flower of Scotland
I know you would never vote for a Unionist but 25% of those that voted for Nicolas dad did and that was a BIG mistake.
Schrodingers Cat Rule No 1 is worth repeating:
NEVER VOTE FOR A UNIONIST.
Flower of Scotland says:
10 October, 2016 at 4:40 pm
@schrodingers cat
We are both in N E Fife and I argued with you about the SNP/Green vote before May.
yeah, i know you did, thing is i also argued the same thing with indyref2, he took the same tact as you, which is why i dont understand why you are arguing now ?
BJ says:
10 October, 2016 at 6:47 pm
At the last council election in my area there were 7 names. Six were unionist supporting and one SNP.
I put the mark against SNP and ignored the rest. I’m assuming that was right?
yes and no, yes only vote for indy supporting candidates, no you should have also stood as an indy supporting candidate 🙂
What caused NS dad not winning a seat was 20% or so turnout, postal votes – maj tory, labour voting tory and of course the candidate was an obvious target in a bye-election.
Next time around I would expect him to win.
Flower of Scotland says:
Hi, Thepnr
I would NEVER vote for a Unionist, not ever!
but would you give your 3rd vote to a green in your ward?
i know you are in nef, same as me so at a guess, the how or taybridge head wards?
@schrodingers cat
I’m in the Howe.
There are Indy candidates, Unionist candidates and there may be Independent candidates.
Last time I voted 1 for the only SNP standing, then 2 for the only independent in the believe that would keep a unionist out. It did, however I have since learnt that although the independent is non party affiliated, they are very anti Indy.
Moral … beware of independent candidates.
I have concluded that very few independents are actually pro Indy. I get the impression most are actually Tory supporters (at Holyrood and General elections) who wish to remain party free for local issues.
If there are ANY independent councillors/candidates out there who are actually pro Indy I feel they are rare.
SNP lead by the nose on the Dogs Brexit now on Heathrow expansion , these bastards in Westminster play a serious game how many previous promises have been broken, when will they ever learn.
@ Lochside says at 3:18 pm …. ”totally agree with you regarding accessible facts and figures. The WBB worked really well during the REF, but still had gaps in it, naturally because of the speed it was put together. The YES resources and SNP were too vague and wishy washy. It’s amazing that at this stage we still haven’t had the GERS figures completely deconstructed and debunked.”
……….
@ Glamaig says at 3:41 pm …. ”totally agree. You posted on here a while ago, a list of Scotlands fantastic resources. This is the sort of thing that should be common knowledge. Is it within Scotgov remit to advertise this? if not surely the SNP could do it? and I dont mean hidden away on a website, it has to be in your face big f off adverts in papers or something. Not arguments, not political, just facts that nobody can dispute.”
……….
This is an issue that really cracks me up. The WBB published by Stu is excellent and has no doubt proven to be influential however the SNP site should have ALL relevant data published therein from the Declaration of Arbroath / Sovereignty / Claim of Rights; McCrone Report through to Cameron / Osborne statements on oil; Norway’s current oil situation (and live display of their oil fund) in comparison to ours; how much of our oil revenue did we actually receive over the last 40 years; how much we’re paying to service rUK interest on debt; Steve Webb’s statement about the State Pension highlighting that Gordon Brown was a liar; UK State Pension in comparison to the rest of Europe; how much of our gas and electricity gets exported to England; how much Longannet had to pay to connect to the grid in comparision to those south of the border; how lucrative our renewable energy sector could be; House of Lords and their influence; history of the (concerted) depopulation of Scotland; our stolen seas and who was behind that; list of politicians who have financial interests in privatising the NHS, fracking and so on; a list of potential (actual) nuclear radiation leaks / accidents; Scotland’s resources / assets; true facts relating to the fishing industry / Scotlands lack of input (prevented) at the EU; famous Scots / achievements; Who owns Scotland; number of Councils run by Labour / Tories and how long this has gone on for such as GCC (nearly 40 years); GERS figures ‘deconstructed and debunked’ etc, etc, etc. They could even list the damage Labour and Tory leaders / politicians have done over time, if they had a mind to.
Some of these ‘facts’ could then be reproduced onto SNP placards, flyers, banners and billboards. Better still employ someone to project key information onto large buildings (e.g. Edinburgh Castle) in cities (and towns if financially feasible) right across Scotland.
http://www.emftechnology.co.uk/outdoor-building-projection/
If this seems like a mammoth and costly task they could fundraise by asking members to donate £10 each raising £1,200,000 or MORE. I’m also sure that they’d be inundated with individuals volunteering to help collate the information …. most of it having been done on here already.
……….
@ schrodingers cat says at 3:26 pm …. Petra …. EXACTLY Stoker. We need some sort of archive on here where we can access information at a moments notice. We’re going round and round the garden with one issue after another. Off-putting for lurkers? I reckon so.”
”i disagree, im only trying to point out here, for the moment, that these elections will be fought on a ward by ward basis. seems obvious, but when people quote batemans views on the greens in general, or people start talking about moray council and other council areas, when there is no council wide election, only ward elections even in moray, it is quite clear that even this very basic concept eludes quite a number on this thread. best to start with the basics.”
SC I didn’t particularly have the issue that you’ve been posting about in mind. To be honest the ‘vote for’ goes right over my head and I’m inclined to ‘scroll on by’. We were given different advice on this previously by a number of different people and it didn’t quite work out the way that we hoped it would. I’ll be voting SNP. Like Stoker keeping it simple. If someone comes up with the ideal way to vote in my particular area, nearer the time, I’ll consider it.
Additionally, imo, the key to all of this is to get (potential) Yes supporters out to vote in their droves in the first place. P*ssing them off so much that they’ll want to go out and vote. Doing that by opening their eyes to the ‘facts and figures.’
……………………………
@ Stoker says at 4:38 pm …. ”i recall not that long ago reading somewhere the Rev saying that he will do something on the voting systems nearer the time so it looks like we’ll just have to wait until then.”
Maybe we should wait until nearer the time because so much can happen between now and the LC Elections.
”I’m currently trying to search through all the WOS archives to make my own personal register of articles i want but i only got a few months into 2012 and my head was exploding, i had to stop because i wasn’t confidently clear on what i was trying to achieve. So it’s back to the drawing board until i can come up with a clear plan and system of what i’m looking for and how i’m going to catalogue them etc. With well over 4000 articles and climbing it’s no easy task.”
Good for you Stoker. Thank God we have so many highly intelligent, hard-working people dedicated to the cause. This site, and the posters, testament to that.
I’ve tried to put together some data too, listing under different headings such as oil, fracking, Trident and so on, but the ‘biggy’ of course is how to get it all OUT there.
What was the rational behind backing of the 3rd runway. Still two lots of airport charges to go anywhere.
Perhaps by the time it comes to fruition we’ll have a hub like Dublin anyway.
I think that wee will have to fight each ward in its own way come the council elections. So its a case off wait and see then decide what tactics should be employed seat by seat.
So its a case of have patience its going to be a long game
Schrödinger’s cat @6:59
Could get confused with those who say they are standing as Independents as opposed to Indy supporting candidates.
The former being Tories and Labour in wolves clothing.
galamcennalath
i think your observation about independents is spot on, very few will be indy supporters, many tories hiding behind the tag of independents in eg weak labour areas etc.
fos, the green most likely to stand in the howe is….. the secretary of yesnef 🙂
also, odd as it may seem, we only have one candidate declared for the howe ??? and as all other candidates, he/she hasnt been vetted or cleared yet??
starlaw, the only wait we need to do is for the snp to finish their vetting process, could be march next year?????? most of the unionists and greens are already in place, eg, nothing to stop you looking at the results from your area from 2012/2015/2016 and working out how many snp candidates should stand in your ward. ?
Additionally, imo, the key to all of this is to get (potential) Yes supporters out to vote in their droves in the first place.
this is the most critical issue for 2017, gotv
In my part of the world (rural Aberdeenshire) “Independents” are usually Tories who don’t want to stand as Tories.
I would only vote SNP, unless Stu or the SNP produce an article suggesting that voting for another Independence supporting party is sensible. Getting rid of Unionist councils is paramount.
Re Heathrow, I too am puzzled by this decision, unless it is a way of building up capacity at Prestwick etc as part of the package. I never travel via “Thiefrow” and always fly via Schipol.
We need to develop our own ports and infrastructure as soon as possible.
Beware Independents.
They are Tories!!!