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The Mayfly

Posted on October 08, 2016 by

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    686 to “The Mayfly”

    1. schrodingers cat says:

      ditto bj

      thats why i was encouraging this thread to look closely at their respective wards. its up to you all, to look out for this phenomen in your wards, we all know this will happen, it has before, but no one from snp central will do this for you, If you cant bring yourself to vote anything else but snp, fair enough, but at least you can warn other snp voters not to vote for unionists in disguise? not everyone may know the difference. ?

    2. Kevin Evans says:

      Re the Heathrow thing.

      Was it not a case of “an extra runway is going in somewhere around London pick either Gatwick or Heathrow” with no option of no extra runway at all?

    3. G says:

      If your aim Is to maximise the number of pro-independence candidates then you should vote for all of them in the council elections.

      In the Westminster elections, a vote for the Greens was effectively one less vote that the SNP candidate had over their unionist opponent. Not a “wasted” vote, but counterproductive in terms of kicking out unionists, Mundell being the most glaring example.

      The same applied to the first vote in the Holyrood elections. The second vote was less straightforward.

      The council elections are different. You can vote for every SNP candidate and every Green candidate. If the SNP candidate is eliminated and a lot of their votes then go to a Green, that could be enough to keep out a Labour dinosaur, Tory bigot, or Lib Dem liar. It doesn’t make the election of an SNP candidate any less likely.

      The Yoons have worked this out, one of the reasons they’re able to pick up seats in recent byelections.

      I don’t really understand the animosity towards the Greens. Sure, they have some sanctimonious nutters in their ranks, but so does every party. They have been constructive in opposition on policies like minimum pricing of alcohol, when the unionist parties were cynically playing politics with lives. They worked hard during indyref.

      With the possible exception of any spectacular idiots being put forward, I’ll be voting for every pro-Indy candidate.

    4. Thepnr says:

      @schrodingers cat

      Additionally, imo, the key to all of this is to get (potential) Yes supporters out to vote in their droves in the first place.

      This overrides any voting system or preference and has to be the number one priority. If we got ALL the Yes voting support out SNP would control EVERY Council in Scotland.

      Make this our priority but if we fail to get all our support out then we must vote the way that will be most likely to get every council run by the SNP.

      That story has yet to be written but will be.

    5. Sandy says:

      Giving Goose.
      Independent candidates,
      Iv’e posted this warning for the last two/three months. I intend to keep on doing so. Sincerely hope you continue to do same. Keep it short & sharp. Some may object to the repetitiveness. Ignore them.

    6. Tam Jardine says:

      ronnie anderson

      Just to expand on what I said above- if you watched the commons today you would be left in no doubt that parliament is not going to be consulted or required to give consent during the brexit negotiations.

      And if the commons is not going to be consulted then the Welsh Assemby, Stormont and Holyrood will play no part whatsoever in the process, regardless of Michael Russell being appointed and the wait-and-see approach.

      We all know this is the nature of the union between Scotland and England- that the circumstances where Scottish votes would have a bearing on the UK decision were so obscure and unlikely as to be almost a joke. With the same turnout we would have needed 85.6% to vote remain in Scotland to have swung it.

      So we have played no part in this decision as a country and will play no part in deciding the nature of our exit from the EU or the future relationship we have with the EU.

      We know that there is ample justification for another referendum on independence and I know we can win it. Cool heads out there are cautious… what happens if we call another one and lose? Well, if we acquiesce in this and are dragged out of the EU with no consultation and no input and having essentially turned up for a vote that we had almost no chance of swinging in the first place… then there can be no claim to being a separate, sovereign entity.

      There is a time for caution and a time to set the agenda and not be dragged by the lead into the vortex like a dog.

      I know the 19th of September and the thereafter was sair but I would rather risk the pain of another defeat and go down fighting than to give up without a fight on some ultra-long game.

      We are being given too much time to dwell on the minutiae of independence and the fascinating history of this country. People talk about how the EU is great because it gave us 70 years of peace between EU countries. Well- the Union of 1706-1707 had one thing going for it- it meant that a country which had invaded us and attempted to subjugate us relentlessly since the 13th century stopped being an immediate threat and instead merely became an abusive overlord.

      If ever there was something whose day has passed it is the bleedin United Kingdom and now our involvement is jeopardising our economy, our relationships with our allies in Europe, our trading relationship with many, many countries in the world, our Human Rights, our cooperation on international crime and terrorism, our cooperation on tax evasion and avoidance and the ability of our citizens to travel, study, move to or trade with these 27 other friendly countries.

      I would risk defeat again- in fact I would rather we were defeated again and kept our pride to fight another day than gave up and allowed this to be simply done to us.

    7. schrodingers cat says:

      capella

      I would only vote SNP, unless Stu or the SNP produce an article suggesting that voting for another Independence supporting party is sensible.

      im not sure that can be done for snp voters, leastways for every ward?
      it could be done for green and ssp voters though. my rules post is really targeted at them to convince them to give 2nd and 3rd votes etc to the snp?

      as ive said, snp voters in wards with 2 snp candidates, in almost every ward, whether the snp voters give 3rd choice votes to greens or ssp wont make a blind bit of difference. the most the snp activists and supporters can offer the smaller indy supporting parties is good will. The reverse is not the case, getting the smaller indyparty supporters and voters to give the snp their 2nd and 3rd votes, may be be crutial in some wards to the snp candidates elected?

    8. Petra says:

      ‘Tommy Sheppard: The SNP need a 21st-century way of enabling members to discuss, propose and influence our policies.’

      …. ”Our policy-making processes were designed for a previous age. We need a 21st-century way of enabling members to discuss, propose and influence policy. It’s great that individual members can submit policy ideas through the SNP website, but we can do more together. We can harness the power of the internet to put members who are specialists in policy areas in touch with each other to develop ideas for the mass membership to debate, ideas that will take our party, and the nation forward.” ….

      http://www.thenational.scot/politics/tommy-sheppard-the-snp-need-a-21st-century-way-of-enabling-members-to-discuss-propose-and-influence-our-policies.23297

      ……………..

      Did anyone else watch the full US Presidential debate last night / earlier today? If not I’ll just say that it was absolutely horrendous. A TOTAL embarrassment for the US.

      You’d think that with a US population of 324 million residents they could come up with better than this …. these TWO. One a lying warmonger and the other an out and out liar, racist, misogynist, ignoramus and moron, who’s ready to nuke the planet to Kingdom come.

      The debate was used as a platform for the two of them, in particular Trump, to ‘out’ each other like a couple a kids in a playground. The World’s ready to implode and Trump answered every question (Syria, healthcare, immigration, taxation, economy etc) by telling us all how useless and rotten Clinton is over and over again.

      Horrendous to think that one of them is ultimately going to be the most powerful person in the World. Watching them also made me wonder what would happen here if Nicola Sturgeon could stand up and say what she thinks about Westminster such as naming and shaming paedophile politicians, political tax avoiders / evaders, people with financial interests in the NHS, energy sector and so on.

      There’s a great article in The National today by George Kerevan: ‘Whether Trump is sunk or not, the US faces turbulence ahead regardless.’

      I can’t seem to find it to post it on here, but well worth a read if you can get your hands on it.

      ……………

      I’ve also come across a little snippet in the Sun: ‘Extremists gag row’.

      ‘Officials are being accused of trying to water down a report on extremism by the Government’s integration Tsar.

      Dame Louise Casey tackles the impact of mass immigration and the integration of minorities in her review.

      It has been reportedly been ready for months but held back amid ‘concerns” over it’s content and language.’

      Anyone got any more info on that?

    9. louis.b.argyll says:

      See, confusion.
      Indepen..dence vs indepen..dents
      = indy…pen..dance.

    10. Lenny Hartley says:

      Maybe’s favouring Heathrow over Gatwick and Standsted due to freight , Jumbo freighters generally go to the to Gatwick and Stanstead, Prestwick gets the overflow plus the dangerous ones like the ones carrying bombs for the bombing of Brown babies.
      These don’t go down south and quite a few Jumbo freighters have landed at Prestwick recently.
      If Gatwick and/or Standsted are given an extra runway then big drop in freight work at Prestwick.

    11. Ian murray says:

      My suggestion is a referendum newspaper providing generic information about all the areas of possible concern to all voters
      It would also respond to any scare stories by the yoons
      The paper would run for 6 weeks or 8 and would be free delivery to every house in Scotland
      It could even go Mon Wed and Fri

    12. Petra says:

      @ Tam Jardine says at 8:21 pm …. ”If ever there was something whose day has passed it is the bleedin United Kingdom and now our involvement is jeopardising our economy, our relationships with our allies in Europe, our trading relationship with many, many countries in the world, our Human Rights, our cooperation on international crime and terrorism, our cooperation on tax evasion and avoidance and the ability of our citizens to travel, study, move to or trade with these 27 other friendly countries.

      I would risk defeat again – in fact I would rather we were defeated again and kept our pride to fight another day than gave up and allowed this to be simply done to us.”

      Tam we will FIGHT it and we WILL WIN it. Have no fear.

    13. schrodingers cat says:

      pnr
      This overrides any voting system or preference and has to be the number one priority. If we got ALL the Yes voting support out SNP would control EVERY Council in Scotland.

      true, but how to do this without noising up the unionists?

      im sure may pressing the brexit but at the end of march is designed to precipitate the stand off between holyrood and westminster over indyref2 right in the middle of the council election campaign. Fear of indyref2 is what motivates the unionists. we may have no choice to gotv in this council election

    14. Nana says:

      Sionaidh Douglas-Scott: The ‘Great Repeal Bill’: Constitutional Chaos and Constitutional Crisis?

      https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2016/10/10/sionaidh-douglas-scott-the-great-repeal-bill-constitutional-chaos-and-constitutional-crisis/

    15. sandycraig says:

      TJ @ 8.21.

      Great post agree 100%.

    16. Thepnr says:

      @schrodingers cat

      It may be wishful thinking but I believe this new Tory government might just motivate enough Yes supporting Scots to go out and vote next May.

      Thatcher Mk II might be all the motivation they need, these elections are only 30 weeks away, in political terms imminent.

      Once these elections are out of the way and assuming T. May has already pressed the Article 50 button I don’t see it improbable for a second Independence Referendum to be called sooner rather than later.

      I want a short campaign more than anything though judging by the MSM and BBC propaganda fest happening now it might not matter.

      My point they too are not taking any chances with the timing of Indy2 and are full on propaganda right now which will last until the day of the vote.

      That’s how scared they are. I’m with Tam Jardine above:

      “I would risk defeat again- in fact I would rather we were defeated again and kept our pride to fight another day than gave up and allowed this to be simply done to us.”

    17. Liz g says:

      Rock @ 6.34
      If the Scotland Act forbids Holyrood from holding a referendum on Scottish independence…. that’s news to me.

      And certainly not something I have said.

      Try thinking of it like this…..and don’t take it as anything other than a way of looking at issue.

      If you got Legally married.
      You would then have a Lawful wife.
      If you were then to get divorced.
      You don’t get an unlawful wife
      Or even an illegal wife,
      If you marry another wife before going through the proper leagal process that’s not unlawful that’s illegal.

      You see the way these terms are applied in law are all different.

      Also nothing ever comes under these headings unless they have been written in.

      EG..No one ever had the right to drink and drive before it was made illegal, it was never legal to do it ,it just wasn’t illegal.

      Sooo ….with all that in mind for Holyrood to strike down or alter the Treaty of the Union,it would not be lawful.
      And could cause Westminster to make it not only illegal but give it a level of ” illegalness ” that could carry heavy punishment and back date it.
      The trouble is that would cause backlashes to many to mention here,thats why it would be a UDI option.
      Because it looks like and behaves like UDI.
      Now if that point of view does not change your question,you and I need to leave it here …on this matter.

      I must admit that you see to have the answer you want already in your mind.Also you seem to be trying to steer Robert Peffers into giving it to you.
      Can I ask why and for what purpose?

    18. One_Scot says:

      So effectively everything that ‘Better Together’ said would happen if Scotland became Independent, has now happened as a result of a ‘No’ vote and Brexit.

      Not sure that Better Together2 will have many options left in terms of lies and scare stories.

    19. schrodingers cat says:

      Thepnr says:
      10 October, 2016 at 8:57 pm
      @schrodingers cat

      It may be wishful thinking but I believe this new Tory government might just motivate enough Yes supporting Scots to go out and vote next May.

      im thinking they are trying to motivate the unionists to go out and vote and convince the yessers not to. they succeded in this in the holyrood election

    20. Thepnr says:

      @schrodingers cat

      The Tories are guaranteed to go out and vote, Labour and Libs not so much.

      The Yes supporters are anyone’s guess, we need a mass campaign to get our lot to vote. This vote is just as important as Indy2.

      How do we do that? Any thoughts folks?

    21. Glamaig says:

      One_Scot says:
      10 October, 2016 at 9:03 pm
      Not sure that Better Together2 will have many options left in terms of lies and scare stories.

      I dont think that will stop them trying:

      1. 15bn black hole, your economy is crap (why dont you fix it neh neh neh day job day job)
      2. most of your trade is with England and we won’t let you neh neh neh
      3. EU doesnt want you, cos youre crap
      4. the EU is crap, you dont want to join it
      5. you will get swamped with immigrants
      6. you will have to join the Euro and its crap
      7. they wont let you join the Euro, cos youre crap
      8. your oil is running out
      9. your oil isnt worth anything
      10. you need our mighty armed forces to defend you
      11. you need nukes or other countries might be nasty to you
      12. your weather is crap (Greece without the sunshine)
      13. your windmills are crap
      14. you cant even talk right
      15. your granny in England will become a FORRINER
      16. you will need a passport to get to England
      17. stamps will be more expensive
      18. what will you do if aliens attack you
      19. we will give you MOARR POWERRRZ
      20. we will be super federal
      21. we love you
      22. we will wave saltires for a day to make you feel wanted
      23. PLEEEZE DONT GO (even though youre crap)

      yawn

      Im sure we will be playing scare story bingo.

    22. Thepnr says:

      @Glamaig

      Agree with every word other than FORRINER that should have been FURRINER. Sorry for being such a pedant but standards are important 🙂

    23. Dr Jim says:

      Quick better get your Euros now while you can still get 88 cents for £1

    24. louis.b.argyll says:

      Ian murray says:
      10 October, 2016 at 8:29 pm
      My suggestion is a referendum newspaper providing generic information..

      Great idea..even weekly for six months then ‘daily’ leading up to..

    25. heedtracker says:

      24. Armed guard Check point Charlies at Berwick, Ed Milliband.
      25. Different international phone code cost from mother UK, Ligger Neil
      26. No Lotto. £149 million tomorrow! Or what JK Rowling makes an hour. Cant mind who said that one, John Major maybe.

      If I win the lotto tomorrow, I’m still YES.

    26. Petra says:

      @ Glamaig at 9:32pm ……

      That just about sums it up Glamaig, lol.

    27. Dr Jim says:

      Has anybody noticed how quiet folk like Jakey Rollup and her buddy the business Tsar Michelle (I love myself) Mone have been lately, not a peep from the top Yoon trollers on how Brexit is all going swimmingly

      @Duncan Hothersall has fessed up at last and admits his party is over and out, done and dusted, gubbed! never to return
      and Glasgow Cooncil want the SNP to hurry up and bring down APD but they didnae ask Kezia furst.. Oh-uh!

      Mibbees they want their automation..automatic..autumn statement..automaton, it’s one of those things with an AUT in it

    28. call me dave says:

      Fuel prices to rise 4p or 5p a litre this month.

      PS:
      Other costs. 🙁

      Palace of Westminster repairs could be billions more than planned

      http://archive.is/QgKAo

    29. Glamaig says:

      @Dr Jim

      aye big drop in the the graph maps onto the Tory conference… funny that. Wonder if they and their pals knowing the likely reaction all bought billions of Euros before conference to make a killing?

      For sure there are people out there making a mint from Brexit. Just not us.

    30. dakk says:

      @ One-Scot

      ‘Not sure that Better Together2 will have many options left in terms of lies and scare stories.’

      The Yoon Project Fear will just contort to something like ;

      ‘If you think Brexit was bad,Scexit from UK will make things even worse for us since it is a known fact that Scotland has milk bottle shoulders whilst the UK has Herculaean ones and can cope with adversity with true Brit spirit.

      I can hardly wait.

    31. heedtracker says:

      Thought it was Ed Milliband who said No lotto for Scotland but it was actually UK.gov, or their apolitical impartial civil service put this out. Takes you back eh.

      https://www.gov.uk/government/news/scotland-the-uk-10-myths-10-facts

      Fact: It’s called the National Lottery – not the International Lottery. You can’t buy a ticket in France, so why would it run in an independent Scotland? The same goes for everything from the Met Office to the benefits system. We’d have to spend millions setting up new institutions.

      3. Myth: We’ll be an EU member (and inherit the same terms and conditions that the UK currently enjoys)
      EU flag

      Fact: We’d have to apply as a new state and negotiate entry – it’s hard to imagine it would be an easy process (look at how long it took Croatia to join – almost eight years), and even harder to imagine that we’d be given advantageous terms (like the UK rebate or opt-outs, including from the Euro).

      So much for us all being fully prepared for their UKOK Brexit catastrofuck. Spectacular UKOK BBC r4 Brexit’s great propaganda right now, or as normal. Its worth a listen to BBC r4 liars. just to hear professional liars/spin doctors raving about how great it is with sterling plummeting.

    32. Glamaig says:

      27. why do want to join the EU, you wont be SOVVERIN like us
      28. the queen will be sad
      29. we want to go on paying your crap country 20bn a year so we can ignore your MPs
      30. what will you use for money
      31. we wont let you use our sooper dooper POUND wot is soooo valuable oh wait

      yawn

    33. Tinto Chiel says:

      Glamaig: could you please add another to your list, one I memorably got on the doorstep from a complete Zoomer Yooner.

      “I’m voting No ‘cos ma car insurance will go up.”

      “Really? How’s that?”

      “‘Cos we’ll be a foreign country,” (taps temple to indicate ‘use yer heid’).

      It’s the way they tell ’em.

    34. heedtracker says:

      8. Myth: Westminster won’t devolve more powers

      Fact: More powers were devolved in the Scotland Act 2012 (the largest devolution of tax powers in the UK’s history). As a result we now set even more of our own laws, from motorway speed limits to regulating air weapons. Plus, all 3 main UK parties have promised more powers will be devolved in future.

      What a bunch of shysters. Sorry, British shysters.

    35. Glamaig says:

      32. you wont be able to waste your money on our lottery any more and its the bestest and only lottery in the whole wide world
      33. you wont know what the weather is going to be any more because its OUR met office and we wont tell you neh neh neh and nobody else in the world can forecast the weather
      34. its great when your currency is in free fall cos everybody wants to buy your stuff if you have anything to export oh wait

    36. K. A. Mylchreest says:

      Tam Jardine said :

      ¨If ever there was something whose day has passed it is the bleedin United Kingdom and now our involvement is jeopardising our economy, our relationships with our allies in Europe, our trading relationship with many, many countries in the world, our Human Rights, our cooperation on international crime and terrorism, our cooperation on tax evasion and avoidance and the ability of our citizens to travel, study, move to or trade with these 27 other friendly countries.¨

      And that´s it in a nutshell. What more is there to say?

    37. Fireproofjim says:

      Ian Murray@8.29
      Ian, it is a good idea but very expensive.
      Setting up a paper for every household in Scotland would need a million copies for every edition.
      Then you have the printing costs and delivery or postage.
      When we did the newspaper for the 2014 referendum it was all we could do to get one out every month and the deliveries relied on volunteers in the evenings slogging up and down thousands of stairs. A million every week or more would be impossible in my opinion..
      That paper was delivered but, again in my opinion, it was not very good and full of trivia when it should have been vigorously attacking the No camp in every copy.
      I would like to see a good Yes campaign paper but it must be better than last time.

    38. heedtracker says:

      46. The rich will leave Scotland, never to return. Wont that be terrible Scotland.

      I was in Dales on Saturday and two rich dudes were collecting their new bikes, £7,500 and £12,000. I’m not a commie but you can see how it all began.

    39. Liz g says:

      Tam Jardine @ 8.21
      Could not agree more with what you said and you said it so well.
      In a sense no matter the result,we cannot let this just go ahead.
      We have to demonstrate that we do not agree with or accept the direction of the UK government.
      And even if the numbers fell short to get us out ,we still have shown there is a very large and credible group of Scottish Citizen’s who will not go quietly away.

    40. Glamaig says:

      Palace of Westminster repairs could be billions more than planned

      They should sell it to Disney as a theme park. They wouldnt even have to make any changes.

    41. Phronesis says:

      ‘The doors and windows of the legislative house remain closed and no one gets in, not even through the cat flap. …It’s as if politics has shut itself up in its own castle and is peering at the uproar on the street, an unhelpful attitude which only increases the citizen’s feeling of distrust and causes further unrest…

      Without drastic adjustment, this system cannot last much longer… It’s very simple either politics throws open the doors or it won’t be long before they’ll be kicked in by angry citizens shouting slogans like ‘No taxation without participation’ as they smash every last stick of furniture and walk out with the chandelier of power’

      (Van Reybrouck, ‘Against Elections)

      Scotland can provide that drastic adjustment with its peaceful, inclusive, democratic and progressive politics. If Scotland wrote its constitution now and enacted all the elements perhaps that were in the original Smith Commission and compared it to the travesty of ‘powers’ and influence over its own destiny that it has at present within the Union- which would be more agreeable?

      Scotland can have referendums, repeatedly, until WM gives up. Referendums are a good way as per the YES campaign of educating the electorate, giving them the information that they require to make a decision that can be expressed collectively as a consensus.

      Scotland’s tenement dwellers are now fully educated. That’s the stuff of nightmares for the current WM regime – the party of extreme inequality, social exclusion and misinformed citizens which doesn’t understand that any successful long term relationship depends on mutuality, trust, reciprocity and empathy.

      The EU vote exemplifies the imbalance within the UK union-why would anyone vote for the current UK political set up to continue as ‘hard’ Brexit becomes hardship Brexit. The politicians who have promoted and courted this with the support of indefensible journalism will not hang around with the masses as the economy tanks and the global instruments of unrestrained capitalism turn their backs on the sour faced UK in favour of the rather larger, economically favourable European market.

      An autonomous Scotland is a worthy and inevitable outcome irrespective of the mechanism that ultimately triggers it .

    42. Glamaig says:

      @Tinto Cheil

      36. your car insurance will go up cos you’ll be FURRIN

      superb

      37. if youre in the EU you wont have proper weedkiller like us

      38. the FURRINERS will steal all your fish

    43. G says:

      35. Michelle Mone will threaten to move back to Scotland.

    44. Black Joan says:

      The unelected Mayfly, lording it over a party which has a majority of only 12 — a majority which looks highly questionable given the supposedly live investigations of Tory Election Fraud — is now telling the UKOK Parliament to get back in its box and consume its cereal re Brexit.

      Surely to God this cannot be happening.

    45. Terry says:

      Boxing clever come council elections is crucial. Concentrating on the stronger for scotland message might be best? Playing the Eu remain card might backfire in some areas and communities who are pro brexit – and I mean SNP brexit voters. Although by May the brexit Blues might have hit so that could be a moveable feast.

      Need to recognise that we’ve lost some Indy supporting working class vote over brexit but gained middle class pro Europe. However as mentioned the country might be choking on its brexit cereal by then. Things are still up in the air.

      Nicola will be on it though. She won’t fire the starting gun til she sees the whites of their eyes. Steady, steady…

    46. 47.
      There won’t be ‘clads’ and ‘shahs’ in the atmosphere in an independent Scotland. The weather map will show ‘clouds’ and ‘showers’ instead.

    47. yesindyref2 says:

      Right, I’ll go into more detail of my own ward – and council – now I’m back from the committee meeting. I spent all last night putting together a single sheet of A4, including having reverse engineered the result of the election for our ward with a spreadsheet.

      Here we had 2 SNP candidates. One was over the quota of 1.245 on 1st preference, the only candidate of all parties to have reached the quota, he was duly elected. With a surplus of 460 votes. But the way that works is ALL 1705 votes are then looked at for their 2nd preference, and a proportion taken for each and every one of them. That “Transfer Value” was 0.26979 (from my reverse engineering – actual value could be a little different).

      Most of the 1st candidates surplus votes went to the 2nd SNP candidate, some to other candidates, but 105 votes were left blank after the 1st preference so took no further part. This was a waste of 28.3 votes at the transfer value. However, the 2nd SNP candidate had enough transfer votes at a value of 0.27 to get elected with the additional resulting 351.8 votes.

      So SNP were elected 1 and 2, no further candidates, but 2 more seats to elect.

      Now, the 2nd and last SNP candidate had a surplus of 197 votes, for a transfer value of 0.13649. But all his 1,441.8 votes were looked at for their 2nd or third preference. Remember, 1,090 of these were 1st preference votes, but the others were already transferred so already had a reduced transfer value.

      However, of his surplus 1897 votes, 92.8 were non-transferrable, which corresponds to 680 SNP voters expressing no further preference after SNP 1 only, SNP 2 only, or SNP 1 and 2.

      The total votes however at transfer value is now 121.1. At the next stage socialist labour was eliminated and 100% of his votes trnasferred. At the next the Labour was elected and his 36.9 vote surplus transferred.

      At the next stage, the Independent of he had had the SNP wasted votes of 121.1 votes at trandfer value, would have been elected with 1,258.8 votes – just 13.8 over the quota. That didn’t happen, so he was eliminated which left just the Conservative who was duly elected. Someone at the commitee meeteing actually confirmed this – they’d have had access to the detailed info and wouldn’t have needed my reverese spreadsheet.

      I knew myself but checked at the meeting. The Independent was a YES.

    48. yesindyref2 says:

      Oh, I forgot to say. North Ayshire switched back to Labour control from SNP control after Sturgeon’s dad wasn’t elected.

    49. Glamaig says:

      39. the EU wont let you fish your fishing grounds to extinction like us
      40. you wont be allowed to pour shite into your rivers
      41. they’ll make you test all your medicines for godsakes what a drag

      I think there is literally no limit…

    50. yesindyref2 says:

      @Me – bger – always a silly typo – “However, of his surplus 1897 votes” should of course read “However, of his surplus 197 votes”.

      Sht, this is also incorrect “680 SNP voters expressing no further preference after SNP 1 only, SNP 2 only, or SNP 1 and 2”

      should read

      “680 SNP voters expressing no further preference after SNP 2 only, or SNP 1 and 2”

      That sort of mistake is why it took me all flaming night 🙁

    51. Returnofthemac says:

      46. The rich will leave Scotland……..Am pure scunnered so a um. I mean Jakey has left us so has Michelle Ma belle. Gutted……..

    52. Meg merrilees says:

      Slightly O/T Nana @8.48pm

      https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2016/10/10/sionaidh-douglas-scott-the-great-repeal-bill-constitutional-chaos-and-constitutional-crisis/

      Very interesting read and whilst this was an alarming suggestion..

      “The prospect of a ‘Great Repeal Bill’ caused further alarm in Scotland when a report authored by Professor Alan Page (‘The implications of EU withdrawal for the devolution settlement’) suggested that many laws affecting devolved issues could be unilaterally scrapped by Westminster as a consequence of Brexit, because (as already mentioned) secondary legislation could be used to unpick former EU laws. However, because brought about by secondary legislation, such changes would not require the consent – or even the knowledge – of MSPs. ”

      I loved this possible solution …

      “…suppose the Scottish Parliament legislated its own ’Great Continuation Act’, affirming the continuation in Scottish law of all areas previously a matter of EU law that fell within its devolved competence? What constitutional objection could there be to the Scottish Parliament legislating within its own devolved competences? At the very least, that could protect such matters from the risk of actions described in the Page report.”

      Great article, well worth the read. Thanks, Nana.

    53. heedtracker says:

      32. https://twitter.com/Effiedeans bestest ever UK friend will have a nervous breakdown.

    54. yesindyref2 says:

      Oh, and by the way, I followed the advice “SNP only”, so voted SNP 1 and 2, as it happens in the right order, and left the rest blank in spite of wanting to put the Independent 3rd, so I’m as guilty as the rest of ignorance – or was. So my resulting 0.04 transfer vote was totally wasted, and could have been used to have an Indy supporting 3rd councillor – 3 out of 4, instead of 2 out of 4. We’d also probably still have an SNP controlled council – with the help of Independents. Or even other councillors – same as it was since 2012.

    55. mike cassidy says:

      yesindyref2 10.42

      Well, I’ll just copy that and show it to all the voters in my area along with the Electoral Reform Society’s explanation of STV.

      http://archive.is/st7NO

      I’m sure it will cause a spontaneous outburst of enthusiasm for STV and a rush to the polling stations.

    56. yesindyref2 says:

      @mike cassidy
      I think you’d need a somewhat more concise version …

      … same as I’m going to have to do with my full A4 page.

      Less is more.

    57. Vambomarbeleye says:

      Tonight bbc2 Scotland.
      The Victorian slum.
      With zero hour contracts and benefit cuts to the poor and disabled. They soon won’t have to do a mock up in a TVs studio. We all ready have food banks and the needy having to rely on charities. Fifth economy in the world and this is how we treat our disadvantaged. It’s a disgrace and will only get worse with the nazi party in charge.

    58. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      A little O/T but not really. Son & heir came across the following quote when re-reading “Hell’s Angels” by Hunter S. Thompson, and passed it on to me as rather apposite, so I in turn thought it worth sharing here.

      It’s by Danish philosopher Søren Kierkegaard:

      The daily press is the evil principle of the modern world, and time will only serve to disclose this fact with greater and greater clearness. The capacity of the newspaper for degeneration is sophistically without limit, since it can always sink lower and lower in its choice of readers. At last it will stir up all those dregs of humanity which no state or government can control.

      Extraordinarily prescient for current times, no? (Not least The Daily Slug.)

    59. Still Positive. says:

      Re voting in Council elections.

      If your local SNP branch is anything like mine then they will have done a sweep of other elections for both GE and Holyrood and know which ballot boxes favoured them. My son was involved with this at the last election.

      This can then be transferred to local wards for the Council elections. Since most election stations are in Council wards it would be wise to listen to your local SNP branch to tell you which SNP candidate should be first and which second to maximise election.

      SNP as much as possible.

    60. yesindyref2 says:

      @Still Positive
      Yes, if there’s 2 SNP candidates both capable of reaching the quota, it’s very important to split the vote 1,2 and 2,1.

      3 or more would be more complicated! My mind boggles.

    61. Dr Jim says:

      Lottery: I only do the big Squillions Euro anyway
      Bicycles being green: Have you seen the price of bikes lately I went in to Halfords the cheapest grown up bike was over £300 and how long does that last, my car’s over 12 years old never breaks down passes it’s MOT every year and I’m lucky if I do 3000 miles a year anyway so I’m F…..g greener than a bike but I have to pay £270 a year tax to maintain the roads the bikes get to use for free AND I pay insurance so’s the kiddywinkies who keep jumping off the pavement in front of me on their rotten wee bikes can sue me coz I’m a bound to be wrong if I hit one of the little shits or their daddies who cycle around at night with no lights and no hi-viz anything rendering them almost invisible to the naked eye
      If this was Texas at least I’d be allowed to shoot them, no tae kill ye understand, jist wound a wee bit

      Patrick F…..g Harvie I’ll give him Bike, disnae want planes, disnae want oil, disnae want gas, but he’s perfectly happy with cancer spewing diesel buses crawling all over Glasgow city centre and the slower they go the more shit they spew

      What we need is Flitstone transport it’s the only way to go get the little legs underneath and start peddlin, preferably Patrick Harvies little legs

    62. ronnie anderson says:

      47 We can squeeze as many Plooks as we want tae

    63. Graeme Doig says:

      Just heard the Scotland game advertised on cooncil telly there. Oh no hang on … It was England they were talking about … Silly me #livingcolonial

    64. dakk says:

      heedtracker says:
      10 October, 2016 at 10:26 pm
      ’46. The rich will leave Scotland, never to return. Wont that be terrible Scotland.’

      Yeah,and the rich don’t need a country.They can take their capital wherever they please.

      We poor Jockstraps however will be left trapped in Toryboy Britain by a junk currency unable to even afford a weeks respite in Benidorm.

      And po boy Mervyn King says it’s a good thing

    65. yesindyref2 says:

      So around 85% of pro-Indy voters voted SNP in May, and 15% for other pro-indy parties in the list vote.

      Check out YOUR ward results for 2012, and see how many SNP candidates who lost, would have won with just 10% extra votes coming from non-SNP pro-indy voters putting SNP next preferences after their own candidates who got eliminated. And how many SNP controlled councils – overall control, plus NOCs changing to SNP control – that would have made.

      So let’s keep the hate-fest going, eh? The other pro-indy parties just love it. Not.

      But the Unionists do.

    66. call me dave says:

      @Still Positive.
      That’s the way to do it. Local leaflets with the 1&2 2&1 preferences/ directions right down to each individual street in the ward.

      The Marwick method (etal)… works well, lots of prep though. 🙂

    67. Tam Jardine says:

      Liz g

      We have to demonstrate that we do not agree with or accept the direction of the UK government.

      Exactly.

      let’s hope that’s how conference sees it.

    68. Liz g says:

      Tam Jardine @ 12.50
      Finger’s crossed

    69. Petra says:

      48. An Independent Scotland could lose programmes such as Strictly come Dancing and Eastenders or alternatively have to pay to watch them. Gordon Brown.

      I reckon that’s the one that definitely lost us our Independence.

    70. call me dave says:

      Scotland is best place to live in UK

      http://archive.is/otwzT

      SNP accuse Tory government of presiding over ‘dog’s Brexit’

      http://archive.is/c0WxY

    71. Macart says:

      49. Someone will come up with a voting system that doesn’t require extensive use of an abacus, a thesaurus, an astrological chart and a set of D&D dodecahedron dice.

    72. Dorothy Devine says:

      Heedtracker , I have not read Effie Deans before , and now I wish I hadn’t bothered .

      Jeezo! She certainly attracts the ignorant haters.

      Not for me ever again.

    73. Dunks says:

      Is it not possible to devise an App for STV voting.

      Simply put in your desired result listing all the available candidates? Just a thought.

    74. Ken500 says:

      Vote SNP/SNP do not vote for any other Party or you are cancelling out your vote. The only way to ensure the Scottish Gov policies are carrying out affectively. Not ignored by Unionist/Green No Party councils. Against the majority wishes and the public interest.

      The Greens collude with the Unionists. Renege on their own policies. Waste £Millions/Billions on grotesque projects that the majority do not want. Ruining City centres, with no predetrianiseation and cause traffic chaos shutting essential roads. Wasting £Millions/Billions which should be spent on essential services. Class sizes are increasing. Social care and drug/drinks rehab facilities and homelessness care is not being funded by Unionist/Green councils wasting £Millions/Billions of public money. Spending £30Million renovating an Art Gallery? £26Millions debt on a Conference Centre used on average once a month. Now planning to build another one £300Million with a railway link? to an airport 5mins away. The airport entrance is across the runway from the train station. It would be cheaper to move the entrance.

      How much public money can be squander? When essential services are not being met. Refused a £80Million Gift to predestrianise the City and improve the main thoroughfare. The Green deputy leader goes along with this. Votes with the status quo the Unionist for remuneration and Office. The Greens collude with landowners and prevent land being used for essential roads etc.

      The Tories are ruining the world economy. 20 years after Thatcher ruined the world economy deregulated banking, deleverage the reserves. From 25% to 13% – halved. Sold off utilities now owned by fireign Stare companies. Ruined the Scottish economy. Thatcher secretly and illegally took all the Oil resources. Kept them illegally off the balance sheet and built up London S/E with revenues. Built Canary Wharf and Tilbury Docks, Centealused transport through London. Totally congested, adding hours to flight travel. The Tories are wasting £Billions on Hinkley Point and HS2. A total waste of money. The Tories and their associates are lining their pockets with consultancy, fees and banking interest. They are flying nuclear waste around the world. Wasting £Billions on Trident. Going with Brexit. The US do not want it here. It is obsolete. Like the Tory/Unionists.

      The Tory/Unionist have caused the migrant crisis in Europe. With illegal wars. Banking fraud and tax evasion has destroyed the UK economy with £Trillions of debt. The Tories want to walk away and not help resolve the migrant crisis they have created.They are lining their pockets on people’s misery and sanctioning and starving vulnerable people.

      Vote SNP/SNP for self governance/Independence.and a better and more prosperous Scotland. In May 2017 the Scottish Gov can stop sanctioning the vulnerable. No more food banks will be necessary. Vote SNP/SNP May 2017. So the Councils will follow Scottish Gov instructions to fund essential services and not waste £Milliins/Billions on grotesque, monstrosity projects. Against the majority wishes and the public interest. Provide nursery places, cut class sizes, fund proper ‘one chance’ total abstinence rehab care, cut homelessness and fund proper social care.

      Brexit is a total disaster. The minority trying to take the majority out of the EU. 17Milluin out of 45Million electorate. 62Million people population. The Torues committed electoral fraud in 31constituencies, They are an illegal UK Gov. The Tory/Unionist are trying to ruin the world economy again. Along with their Non Dom tax evading right wing MSM associates, who illegally control the Press in the UK, so they can tax evade. The reason they want out of the EU. Losing £Billions in the process as the £ falls. Increasing the deficit and the debt. Imports will cost more and prices will increase. The rest of the UK has a major balance of payments deficit. The UK is the most unequal place in the world, The English working class vote Tory.

      Germany was not allowed to re-arm after 11WW. Did not spend the equivalent of £Billions in redundant, obsolete weaponry. Illegally invade in the Middle East. No massive banker fraud and tax evasion. Germany trades in the Middle East sells cars and builds construction projects. Germany is in the EU and in surplus. Most EU countries (Eurozone) have less debt than the UK. The most unequal, unfair, place in the world. People are unhappy and angry.

      Westminster Unionists squandered the Scottish Oil revenues. The Tories (Osbourne) have tried to destroy the Oil & Gas sector with 80% to 60% taxes when the price has fallen 75%. Losing Scotland £Billions and thousands of jobs. Scotland would have had near full employment without Westminstef interference. Untaxed Fracked Gas from the US is now being imported. The Oil & Gas sector is now taxed at 40%, since Jan 2016. Scotland would be far better off Independent controlling it’s own resources. Westminster reneged on promised CCS projects. Refused permission at Longannet and Peterhead. Westminster took CAP payments made to Scotland. As part of the UK Scotland received the lowest CAP payments in the EU.

      Vote SNP/SNP/SNP. Do not dilute the Vote on these electoral systems used to confuse the voters.

    75. Robert Louis says:

      Nana at 848pm,

      This link;

      https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2016/10/10/sionaidh-douglas-scott-the-great-repeal-bill-constitutional-chaos-and-constitutional-crisis/

      Is very, very interesting. A lot of interesting points.

      Of course like all of us, I fully expect that with brexit, there will be an independence referendum for Scotland, since leaving the EU will be so destructive to Scotland’s interests.

      It isn’t even optional anymore. As the days go by, and the pound falls more and more, and the economy suffers, Scots will be faced with a simple choice, brexit, and all the damage it WILL mean for Scots and Scotland, or re-asserting Scottish independence. I just hope the SNP leadership don’t get distracted, and stand by the people of Scotland as they promised.

      I have always supported independence, but I don’t see brexit as a ‘back door’ way of achieving it, I now see independence as essential for Scotland’s survival BECAUSE of brexit.

      The first thing people need to do is stop reading the polls as a guide to whether to have an independence referendum or not, since we no longer have a choice. If Alex Salmond had relied on the polls in 2011, he would not have decided on a referendum. It’s called LEADERSHIP – having the courage to carry out your mandate.

      It is quite literally now do or die for Scotland’s survival. Were the SNP to show unfathomable betrayal, and NOT hold an indyref, given the threats we now face, it would be a terrible betrayal of all they stand for – and the hopes of Scots. Time to show some leadership now. Time for some courage.

      To quote Nicola Sturgeon, “remain means remain”. That is what I and others FULLY expect.

    76. Fairliered says:

      I live in a 4 candidate ward where the candidates were:
      SNP x 2
      Yes voting independent
      Tory
      Alex Gallagher

      The first 3 are easy, but to I also vote for the Tory for my 4th vote to keep wee Alex away from the responsibility of being a councillor or just leave it to chance?

    77. Fairliered says:

      Further to my last post, Alex Gallagher is so daft (http://wingsoverscotland.com/why-scottish-labour-will-never-recover/) that he shouldn’t have responsibility for holding his own willie when going for a pish, never mind the responsibility associated with being a cooncillor.

    78. Robert Louis says:

      Ken500 at 0737am,

      I fully agree with you. As I said yesterday, I’ll vote SNP/SNP – unless there are any shock announcements at the SNP conference. Much as I like some green philosophy, an awful lot of taxpayers money is being literally wasted by loony schemes – like making a mandatory speed limit of 20mph in ALL Edinburgh roads, no matter time of day etc.. This is costing millions of pounds for thousands of new road signs and road painting

      I support 20 limits outside schools etc.. at closing/opening, but imposing such a speed limit, 24/7 on ALL roads, even major roads isn’t a policy, it is political DOGMA.

    79. heedtracker says:

      Dorothy Devine says:
      11 October, 2016 at 7:27 am
      Heedtracker , I have not read Effie Deans before , and now I wish I hadn’t bothered .

      He/she’s the king/queen of the yoons online. All that’s sticking out of that tory pile of poo is that being Scottish is wearing tartan skirts and going to ceilidhs and Burns suppers. And he/she’s gone of it. Explaining and hoping that the Doric is dying out is very yoon tory too. Only in Scotland.

      Its all about being British. Craig Brown was on BBC r4 news just there and he was intro-ed as ex Scotland football manager. First question r4 sports dude smarms at Brown, what do you make of dropping Wayne Rooney from England Craig?

    80. gerry parker says:

      Mccart at 1:32.

      A coin?

    81. Juteman says:

      Re my last comment about STV voting.
      What I was trying to say was that you don’t need to use all your votes. Some folk seem to be suggesting that you have to put a vote against every candidate. This is not the case.
      If there is only one SNP candidate, only use 1 vote for them. If there is two SNP candidates, only vote 1 and 2 for them.

    82. Macart says:

      @gerry parker

      Pretty much what I use right now. 😀

    83. Nana says:

      FYI Wee Ginger dug coming to Dingwall

      https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/the-wee-ginger-dug-meets-dingwall-tickets-28512605972

      @Smallaxe Kettle is whistling.

    84. davidb says:

      @ Petra 12:55

      And the solution is simple enough. No TV licences in independent Scotland. Free to Air channels just that – free. Buy a sub to Sky, Netflix, BT, Amazon. Watch what you like – no licence required.

      I would suggest a small levy on all the subscription services to raise enough money to cover the cost of a single News & information channel. A channel which broadcasts only for a few hours each evening.

      Huge numbers of people don’t watch any BBC output. Many of us don’t watch TV. If there was a demand for “much loved” BBC dross then SKY or Amazon would buy it from the BBC and you would still get it.

    85. Socrates MacSporran says:

      All this talk of how to use your multiple votes in a multi-member council ward, reminds me of a story a distant relative, these many years relocated to British Columbia tells of the old Cumnock Town Council.

      The council was solid Labour, apart from one Liberal, who kept being re-elected. The theory was, all the Tories and Liberals in the town voted for him, and him alone, while the mainly miners in the town voted for how ever many Labour candidates were standing.

      However, this Liberal was always voted for, on the basis of being the best treasurer Cumnock Juniors ever had, and the miners thought he would keep a similarly steady hand on council finances.

    86. orri says:

      Unless you’re certain no supporter of another party is going to give a preference to yours then it’s important that you keep all your candidates in the running until that transfer takes place.

      A determined campaign to not vote for anything other than your party will make sure of that. However that also means you risk the slim chance of gaining an extra seat. Given the natural wastage involved following a party list might make that situation more rather than less likely, especially if voters only get half the message.

      Given the laziness inherent in all of us I’d operate on the assumption that the last SNP candidate on the ballot is the least likely to get first preferences and will need more support. So I’d put them first.

      Also remember your ballot is live until all preferences are exhausted.

    87. manandboy says:

      I don’t say it nearly as often as I should, Nana, but thank you for your daily links – and for your comments. Your contribution here is of the highest value and is hugely appreciated – every day.
      With very best wishes.
      Manandboy

    88. TheItalianJob says:

      @Manandboy at 8.44

      Ref Nana and her links seconded.

      Also I enjoy your comments and views.

    89. Dorothy Devine says:

      Nana , I second that – Manandboy’s comment that is!

    90. call me dave says:

      Radio shortbread questioning the ‘EU Brussels based’ report that Scotland is the best place to live. It is something up with which they will not put!

      http://archive.is/otwzT

      Even brought on our pals Paul and Anna to douse it in cold water
      “we don’t have the pressures suffered by immigration like the SE of England” and “hate crimes in Scotland” mentioned. That’s us telt then. 🙁

      Pity they didn’t give the background on Prof Gallacher yesterday when they were touting this.

      Calling second independence referendum might cause greater division than Brexit poll, warns leading academic

      https://archive.is/UfiFS

      Good old Auntie! Just another day in Scotland.

    91. schrodingers cat says:

      Fairliered
      I dare say there is an odd example, there are 350 wards. point being made is that central snp wont offer guidance to the voters in your ward regarding this issue, that will be up to those snp members campaigning in your ward

      Juteman
      I havent seen anyone on this thread suggesting you have to vote for every candidate, but yes, it is a misconception i have come across when out campaigning. Indeed, I was informed by an OAP voter that they had been told this by a libdem candidate. par for the course.

      ken500
      If you cant bring yourself to vote for yes supporting candidates other than the snp… dont… as has been pointed out, it wont make any difference to them anyway. It certainly isnt an issue worth falling out over. However, If you come across a supporter/voter for other smaller or independent yes candidates, remain polite and invite them to give their 2nd and 3rd votes to the snp candidates, That may be the difference between the snp winning 1 or more candidates in your ward.

      call me dave says:
      11 October, 2016 at 12:44 am
      @Still Positive.
      That’s the way to do it. Local leaflets with the 1&2 2&1 preferences/ directions right down to each individual street in the ward.

      I would be careful of suggesting that without referencing it to a specific ward. If the quota in a ward is eg 1000, and you have 2 snp candidates and a review of votes from 2012/2015/2016 elections indicate that the snp are likely to gain 1400 votes total, then you might be wiser to go with a snp 1&2 option for the whole ward rather than being in a situation, of after the 1st count, both your candidates sitting on 700 votes and 3 unionists being elected before either of your candidates is eliminated and 2nd preference votes being transfered. as i said, it is up to you to review the best tactic for your ward, no one is going to do it for you

      Macart says:
      11 October, 2016 at 1:32 am
      49. Someone will come up with a voting system that doesn’t require extensive use of an abacus, a thesaurus, an astrological chart and a set of D&D dodecahedron dice.

      I wish, but this is the system we have and will be used for this election, we will just have to deal with it as best we can

    92. Juan P says:

      OT

      You can usually stream the Scotland internationals in HD from here:

      http://www.livefootballol.me/streaming/world-cup-qualification/11-10-2016-slovakia-scotland.html

      Links will appear just before the match starts.

    93. schrodingers cat says:

      Socrates MacSporran
      there has been a move away from independent to party candidates for local elections in recent years and indeed, it could be argued that if the issues at stake are pot holes and dog shit who cares what political party a candidate belongs to.

      however, the 2017 council elections will be the most politicised council elections in scotland ever. I believe it is westminster intention to make it so, they will force the face off between nicola and teresa over indyref2 during the campaign to try and motiate the unionists to get and vote.

    94. K1 says:

      Is the message clearly don’t put a unionist candidate on your ballot paper ‘at all’? You don’t have to put a preference against every candidate on the ballot?

    95. Breeks says:

      Controversial opinion on Council vote?

      Remember I’m not a fan of my local SNP, but perhaps the SNP might try winning, instead of waiting for the opposition to hand them victory by their own unmitigated incompetence.

      By all means keep some powder dry for the post Article 50 pre-Brexit window of opportunity, which might be 2 years but could be 2 weeks, but there is a mountain of inertia to be overcome if we want the correct result.

      Why am I saying so? Because with “nothing” happening in a wider strategic sense, my local SNP brigade aren’t exactly glowing with expectancy or promise. They look very grey and ordinary indeed, and that’s me being kind.

      Ah patience! Goes the cry.

      Well I have patience, but my aspirations to see some positive strategic manoeuvring are well founded. I’ve mentioned before about summits in Scotland, pro EU events and draws to Scotland of European Press packs. Are any such things planned or happening or is Operation Waitandsee the only plan we have?

      The media too is as toxic as ever, but running at large like a rabid dog without even an attempt to corner the beast. It’s another article of Waitandsee policy is it? Know what? Tolerating the media is going to cost the SNP more votes than transferable votes on a ballot. Why worry about Scottish sovereignty trumping English sovereignty when it can’t even win a trick against BBC sovereignty?

      Like I say, when do we start winning independence instead of tut tut tutting as Theresa May does her best to win it for us?

      I know, I know, shut your gob, hold your nose and vote SNP…. Again. Operation Waitandsee is going to plan… Just it’s Theresa May’s plan, not ours, and that’s what bothers me.

    96. manandboy says:

      The Danish Prime Minister is none the wiser after the visit by Theresa May.
      “Separately, Prime Minister Theresa May used a trip to Denmark and the Netherlands to say she is committed to “maintaining strong, positive relations with our European partners” and a “smooth, orderly departure.”

      “After meeting May, Danish Prime Minister Lars Lokke Rasmussen said he still had no concrete idea of what relationship she wants with the bloc. “It appears as if there’s quite a lot of work that needs to be done in the U.K. before there’s a clear view of what the British want,” he said.

      – Simon Kennedy, @simonjkennedy Bloomberg’s Brexit Post

      Theresa May is fast forging a new and contrasting reputation as someone who talks waffle and who is keeping the EU hanging on the end of the line while appearing to do little – and to keep even that a secret.
      It does appear as if Mrs May is playing a game to buy time – but for what? Is she already in negotiations with non EU countries so that when article 50 is triggered she can make her Government look competent and diligent. Something is surely afoot.

      It is in the Tories’ DNA to be underhand and devious and I suspect that is what we are being presented with here. There is an obvious sense of frustration and suspicion in Westminster which was added to by David Davis, the Brexit Secretary, in the House of Commons yesterday, with lots of exaggerated comments about how Brexit will be brilliant for Britain, while at the same time providing no information on anything. He was also repeatedly curt, slightly flippant and occasionally less than courteous to his questioners. All in all, somewhat cavalier.

      A forecast? Lots more uncertainty with little confidence anywhere in the Government’s ability to make a good job of Brexit.

    97. Macart says:

      @ schrodingers cat

      Its a toughie SC.

      Average Jock and Jeannie Public don’t want to know from voting systems. They’re not anoraks and most engage with politics at surface level only. TBF most folks see their own daily struggle as their main focus and that’s OK. They simply want to vote for someone they can trust to carry out the job. 1st, 2nd, 3rd ballots, the ins and outs of regional maths won’t cross their horizons.

      That the Scottish electorate HAVE become so engaged, for so long, in the past few years is quite remarkable in itself.

      For those folks especially, I’d say its fair do’s that they remain engaged enough to turn out on the day and vote their conscience.

    98. Clydebuilt says:

      … O/T.

      MISSION ACCOMPLISHED

      Over the last 5 days I’ve noticed the massed ranks of Scotland’s Football Journalists easing back from the vitriol they dish up towards Gordon Strachan.
      Then this morning Phil Goodlad announces “Chris Sutton claims that Strachan has had enough of being Scotland’s manager”.

      Instead of “he must win this game”, the scribblers have went to some length explaining Gordon’s decisions, in the Herald it was a case of how intelligent he is.

      The mission of our Football Journalists is to turn the fans against the managers, make their tenure untenable, drive them out as fast as they can.

    99. heedtracker says:

      http://archive.is/0H80v

      Things that don’t happen in teamGB,

      “Protests in Hungary at closure of main leftwing opposition newspaper”

      There are none here.

    100. Clydebuilt says:

      Posting Problems

      Every time I post I get the message “You are posting too quickly”. Even when it’s the first post of the day. If I go back to the last screen and submit comment again, the machine hangs for a big then tge post goes through and appears on web page

    101. Nana says:

      Thanks guys, have to go out to the shops now to look for a new hat for my swelling head, but will it be dearer or cheaper what with the crashing pound? oh the uncertainty!

      This site is amazing, comments on the whole are insightful & so knowledgeable. I’m learning something new almost every day. Thanks to all who keep my brain active.

      PS Get your badges on, I’m seeing a lot of folk saying they’ve had chats with people commenting on switching from No and my postie tells me he has seen a lot of Yes stickers appearing on windows and doors as well as cars.

    102. schrodingers cat says:

      K1 says:
      11 October, 2016 at 9:14 am
      Is the message clearly don’t put a unionist candidate on your ballot paper ‘at all’? yup, 100%, also, be aware of unionists hiding under the “independent” ticket

      You don’t have to put a preference against every candidate on the ballot?
      yup, if there are only 2 snp candidates in your ward and no yes supporting independents or smaller indy supporting party candidates, ssp etc, then only vote snp 1 and 2 AND NO ONE ELSE.

    103. manandboy says:

      Before I forget, David Davis told the Commons yesterday “that the vast majority of British people now just want to get on with implementing Brexit”.

      We now have a Tory government at Westminster whose administration is based on ‘because I say so’ politics.
      No action, no evidence. Just empty statements from politicians running on empty.

      Now that reminds me of Ruth Davidson…. Ruth, running on empty.

    104. Ken500 says:

      For some parts of Scotland Prestwick is more awkward to get to than Glasgow or Edinburgh for flights. More people would take the train to London if journey times and service were improved. HS2 doesn’t do that . It makes journey times throughout Britain longer. Causing higher prices, congestion in the south – more car journeys in the south and longer journeys in the North.The need to make connections. The direct journeys are broken. The Northern Cities and Scotland want their inter city journey times and services improved. They are being improved and investment made in Scotland. Thanks to all the hard working railway staff. The Scottish Gov wanted to nationalised the Railways. Westminster refused.

    105. Andrew McLean says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      well argued / explained, but a note of caution some parties look like Interdependence minded but are not, take The Scottish Christian Party “Proclaiming Christ’s Lordship”, The Scottish Christian Party, Christian Party (Scotland,),Scottish Christian Party. there may have been also “highlands and islands christian party”
      None of these incarnations of the same party are for independence, they abuse the name Scottish.

      Just like the new so called Scottish Labour Party, not even a fully fledged branch office more a FOB, (forward operating base) with a supervisor tasked with minor administrative duties.

      To be sure of not making a mistake just vote SNP its easier.

    106. Andrew McLean says:

      Breeks,
      You could also stand yourself, I would vote for you, as would a lot of others here.
      Just a suggestion!

    107. schrodingers cat says:

      thats true macart, but many yes supporters will look for guidance on this and they sure as hell wont get it from the bbc.confusion helps the unionists

      from looking at the ward results from 2012, (only a few wards i might add) there is a tendency amongst unionists to give their 2nd and 3rd votes to other unionists. (look at the st andrews result on the previous page and just how many counts it took to get the snp councillor elected and just how few votes he picked up from the eliminated unionist candidates at each count) There is also a tendency for green candidates eliminated for the majority of their 2nd votes to go to snp. But success in a council ward wont be by getting 100% of snp voters to not vote for a unionist candidate, that will never happen, some folk will vote Adolf1Stalin2, there is nothing as queer as folk and nothing anyone can do about it.

      my aim here is to get people to focus on their actual wards, not on partick harvey who isnt standing anywhere in 2017. It is they who will be fighting and campaigning in their wards, no one else, and they wont get any help from the snp central office

      Indeed, recent announcments by snp central office about the delays in vetting candidates mean that it wont be until the new year(maybe even as late as march??) that anyone will know who the snp candidates are in any ward. That is fatal in a council ward election

    108. call me dave says:

      Shock horror
      Scotland’s only labour MP ignored for the shadow SoS post. 🙂

      PS

      What’s Phil Goodlad good for? I try to be attentive, I really do, but he’s a bit like Torrance getting to the point.

    109. K1 says:

      The reason I asked that question was because:

      Fairliered says:
      11 October, 2016 at 7:43 am
      I live in a 4 candidate ward where the candidates were:
      SNP x 2
      Yes voting independent
      Tory
      Alex Gallagher

      The first 3 are easy, but to I also vote for the Tory for my 4th vote to keep wee Alex away from the responsibility of being a councillor or just leave it to chance?

      So in relation to answering Fairliered’s question, is the answer ‘you don’t have to put a preference for every candidate on the ballot’?

      Cause Fairliered is ‘asking’ a question here and I think it’s important that we catch all the nuances of this so that people have a ‘simple’ message to give to everyone. Don’t vote for any ‘Unionist’ candidates if you are an Independence supporter. Trying to figure out how you can keep Unionist’s out by giving them 4/5th preference votes is completely counterproductive. The whole point is not to give them ‘any’ preference ‘at all’?

    110. schrodingers cat says:

      Andrew McLean

      snp candidate list is now closed

      re so called scottish parties, this is also why i am encouraging folk to review the candidates in their respective wards,
      no one else will do this for you, we are all on our own for this one

    111. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert Louis says: 11 October, 2016 at 7:51 am:

      … – like making a mandatory speed limit of 20mph in ALL Edinburgh roads, no matter time of day etc.. This is costing millions of pounds for thousands of new road signs and road painting …

      Not to mention that by reducing the speed of every vehicle in the restricted area by a third it means these vehicles remain in the area at least a added third longer and thus increase, (more than), a third the pollution caused by exhausts, I say more than because vehicles are much less efficient at 20MPH than they are at 30MPH in addition to the time they remain in the area.

      It is easy to calculate the potential saving of life in reduced accidents – a fairly small number in fact, but not so easy to calculate the ongoing increase in pollution aided deaths and crippling illness such as cancers from increased exposure to exhaust emissions.

      The point being that the entire population in the restricted speed area will certainly be affected by the extra pollutants while the saving of injury and death due to that 10MPH speed of vehicles is miniscule.

      Typically the majority of those sitting on council committees cannot see a millimetre past the end of their own noses.

    112. Socrates MacSporran says:

      THIS POST IS ABOUT FOOTBALL – sort of

      Clydebuilt

      You are crediting the current crop of football writers with a lot more intelligence and influence than they have.

      It seems to this old, three-quarters retired hot metal hack, the principle driving force behind sports journalism in the Scottish MSM today is “clickbait”.

      Some platoons in the Tartan Army are not happy with the fare being produced, so, they are going online to vent their spleen, and the hacks have picked up on this.

      What they should remember is, WGS has made his pile from the game, he is at an age where he could walk away tomorrow and live well, whilst enjoying a lucrative occasional career as a TV talking head. He doesn’t need the hasslem and, when it gets too-much, he will walk.

      The problem is, for at least the last 40-years, the SFWA (Scottish Football Writers Association) and the SFA have been complicit in one of the gretst cons ever on a gullible public. Keeping the Tartan Army on-message in the belief that Scotland is good at football.

      This is a greater volume of pish than even Jim Murphy ever delivered. We have been shite for years, and are getting worse year-on-year, at a faster rate.

      The hacks are merely siding with the Establishment to keep themselves in a job.

      And while I am on a roll. Will those posters complaining about Scotland games not being free to air please shut up. If you want to see Scotland, then go to the game. The BBC and ITV bosses have noticed, the product is crap, and has been for years, so, they are not willing to pay enough for it to be shown on “cooncil telly”.

      Sky has worked-out what it thinks it is worth, the SFA, who also know their product is crap, are quite happy to take whatever pittance Sky will give them, they need the money.

      The days of mile-long queues around Hampden, and 137,000 crowds are gone, we have alternatives to fairly-average football.

      If the SFA and the clubs improved the product, maybe BBC and ITV would want to buy it to show live.

      Meanwhile, we, the fans, have to pay Sky, or pay at the gate. If you’re not interested enough to do either – shut up.

      Rant over.

    113. cearc says:

      Back to the future, from Telegraph,

      ‘They want Theresa May, the Prime Minister, to look at returning a modern-day Britannia to the seas to help secure trade deals once Britain has left the European Union in 2019.’

      “We are listening to the arguments and are always open to new ideas like this that will take Britain out of the EU and into the 21st century.”,’

      I think that last bit should read … and back into the 19th. century!

    114. louis.b.argyll says:

      A related topic.?
      NATO hegemony setting up many central African dysfunctional democracies for a big fall soon.

      NATO needs ground troops to be deployed soon..ANYWHERE. Budgets must be fully utilised.

      There are new deliveries of equipment awaiting delivery, ‘but we haven’t used he old bombs yet’ the generals say.

      Israel finds a new target every 5 years, they get their missile stock replaced every 5 years.

      Westminster (esp Labour) voting to Bomb Syria was a sick democratic surrender to the ‘global /UK defence industry’ who run the West.

    115. louis.b.argyll says:

      None, of England’s bribery, corruption aggression, ignorance, sabotage or gunship -diplomacy will work anymore. It worked before, when the Law was faster than the truth, before education systems and telecommunications.

    116. schrodingers cat says:

      So in relation to answering Fairliered’s question, is the answer ‘you don’t have to put a preference for every candidate on the ballot’?

      the answer is yes, you dont have to put a vote/number next to every candidate on the list in your ward. you can select only 1, or 2 or all of them.

      I think the point being made is that in some wards, people may have a preference for one unionists candidate over another, but without knowing the actual ward, or indeed the voting results for that ward in 2012/2015/2016, I have no way of knowing whether the tactic suggested is valid/sound or will work in favour of the snp or against it?

      since i cant do it for all 350 wards, and snp central wont either , it is up to you to decide/review your ward results to find out what the best way forward is for you wrt, eg, how many snp candidates your branch should stand in your ward. (have a look at the st andrews result in 2012 on the previous page, they already had 2 elected councillors so decided to stand 3 candidates in 2012, this was why they lost a one of their councillors) alternatively you could post your ward on this thread and ask the wingers to crunch the numbers for you?

    117. heedtracker says:

      And while I am on a roll. Will those posters complaining about Scotland games not being free to air please shut up. If you want to see Scotland, then go to the game. The BBC and ITV bosses have noticed, the product is crap, and has been for years, so, they are not willing to pay enough for it to be shown on “cooncil telly”.

      Sky has worked-out what it thinks it is worth, the SFA, who also know their product is crap, are quite happy to take whatever pittance Sky will give them, they need the money.”

      Bollox. How come they still show England games? Cricket’s unbearable to watch on tv but its shown by BBC gits, Andy Murray’s ghosted by his home nation;s newsrooms, let alone shown winning, and winning like no England athlete’s ever done before, etc.

      Its just Britnats in Scotland’s media that will not tolerate any Scottish national sport on their BBC and ITV. It gets the plebs all wound up and flying flags for their country, which doesn’t exist now, if youre a yoon in the UKOK media.

      The fact that youre peddling this BBC Scottish sports black out says more about you than you think. One giant driver behind sports is media coverage, that gets more and more people involved. BBC black outs do the opposite. But its how teamGB works now. Britnat stuff beats all. Shut up and watch cricket, loads of blokes standing a field all day.

    118. cearc says:

      Nice to know our tory MEPs are so well informed on EU trade deals!

      https://archive.is/h9Jvk

    119. Capella says:

      @ Socrates McSporran – I was one of those saying the football matches should be televised on the PUBLIC SERVICE BROADCASTER.

      From my vantage point of complete ignorance, I would argue the opposite case: if the matches were televised more people would be interested and participate. The standard would improve. How motivating can it be to play an international match knowing that nobody back home is watching?

      How can Iceland, Denmark, Norway, Switzerland etc televise their national team games and not Scotland? If there are no commercial outfits willing to do this then that is a market failure and the BBC should step in and televise it as a public service.

    120. heedtracker says:

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-37585154

      Great British tory BBC propaganda

      Does Theresa May have support in Labour’s Mansfield?
      By Tony Roe
      Political editor, BBC East Midlands

      Who knows. Surprise us nice BBC man

      Is Teresa lovely and clever and wonderful, Labour voters of England?

      “Next, the 75-year-old ex-miner, still working as a gardener. Proud he had worked, so far, for 60 years and not intending to retire.

      “She’s great and I’ve always been a Labour man,” he said.

      “But this woman makes sense. I’m sure she’s going to do a good job for us and we’ve got to be patient and I’m sure at the end of the day we’ll be all better off.”

      “I left Birmingham the night before the speech to find out what some real voters, in the Labour stronghold, thought.
      We call them vox pops in the trade, from the Latin “vox populi” which means voice of the people – one question asked of randomly picked people in the street.”

      What a bunch.

    121. Capella says:

      BTW – I understand that up until the 50s Scotland and England were evenly matched in their “Home International” games. It’s recorded in something called the “Wee Red Book”.

    122. heedtracker says:

      Does Theresa May have support in Labour’s Mansfield?
      By Tony Roe
      Political editor, BBC East Midlands

      If Tony Roe ever comes near me for a slice of his ghastly BBC says vote Teresa “vox populi” it would go much like

      The first person I approached was a frighteningly handsome and tall man, in great shape and This is what he said, though, about Theresa May, “take that mike and shove it where the sun don’t shine.” I took that as a vote for Teresa.

    123. Robert Peffers says:

      @davidb says: 11 October, 2016 at 8:17 am:

      … Buy a sub to Sky, Netflix, BT, Amazon. Watch what you like – no licence required.”

      Rubbish! The TV licence is just that – a licence to watch TV broadcasts “FROM ANY SOURCE”. It is NOT a licence just to watch the BBC.

      While the money is collected by the BBC it does not go directly to the BBC. It goes directly to HM Treasury. Then the UK parliament makes a grant to the BBC for the services the BBC does for the Government. In other words it is actually a tax on watching any broadcast video including on-line via the internet and by cable and fibre.

      These BBC functions, besides their main propaganda function, include statutory public service broadcasts, Weather and newscasts.

      It also includes dealing with radio frequency interference and many other commercial services and such as inshore radio services like police, fire and ambulance radio and other non-public broadcasting functions like Ham Radio and amateur slow scan TV. International telephone lines and satellite broadcasting.

      In short you pay to be allowed to receive TV broadcasts from any source.

    124. schrodingers cat says:

      Andrew McLean says:
      schrodingers cat

      To be sure of not making a mistake just vote SNP its easier.

      easier for you in your ward Andrew, except it is being mooted that st andrews snp will only stand one candidate in a 4 candidate ward…… If they can find someone willing to stand…. if not then no one will stand.

      however, the convenor of yesnef is thinking of standing there, should snp members just abandon st andrews to the unionists? this might be what allows the unionists retaining control of fife council.

      nothing is easy about this election. if you want to make a comment about this election, it would be better if it was ward specific. you may inadvertenly mislead other independence supporters in other wards.

      see the discussion about candidates standing under the “independent” tag

    125. Cuilean says:

      Council Election ballot papers list candidates’ names & their party or independent candidates’ names.

      You vote by ranking candidates based on how much you ‘like’ them. You put a 1 next to your first choice, a 2 next to your second choice, a 3 next to your third choice and so on.

      You can rank as few or as many candidates as you like.

      IF YOU MAKE A MISTAKE, ASK POLLING STAFF FOR ANOTHER BALLOT PAPER.

      Avoid the advice given by SLAB’s North Lanarkshire Council, in 2012, which sent out 26,000 postal vote packs containing an illustration showing an X in the box!

    126. Glamaig says:

      on Radio ‘Scotland’ this morning

      Brexit plans to take royal yacht Brittania away from Leith and use it to ‘woo foreign investors’ because its so impressive

      hahahahaha pmsl

      Im deeply worried that the UK is the grip of a bunch of such deluded pillocks. And they’ve got nukes.

    127. Cuilean says:

      Glamaig

      The world might be more impressed if Westminster took Sir Philip Green’s billion pound Med ‘yacht’ away from him, (along with his ‘knighthood’ forbye).

    128. schrodingers cat says:

      Cuilean

      spot on, add to that aberdeen council spending £40k sending out a colour brochure to everyone in aberdeen, and the delays surrounding the snp candidate selection procedure, we have our work cut out and the omens dont look good

    129. Glamaig says:

      We call them vox pops in the trade, from the Latin “vox populi” which means voice of the people – one question asked of randomly picked people in the street.”

      ..and carefully selected and edited in the studio to give the message desired by the producer.

    130. Glamaig says:

      … and although the vox pop may appear to balanced to the casual observer, we’ll enhance the sound quality on the ones we want to promote, choose inarticulate people to voice the opinions we dont, and make sure we finish up with a catchy memorable sound bite of the message we want to give, so it lodges in your brain and its the only one you’ll really remember.

    131. Andrew McLean says:

      schrodingers cat says:110:55 am St Andrews?

      I am Airdrie South mate.

    132. Desimond says:

      The TV rights to ALL Scotland games are owned by UEFA under a collective bargain agreement. There is no use moaning and groaning about the BBC or SFA that, the horse bolted long ago. Its a business and its consumers get what they need, not what they want.

    133. schrodingers cat says:

      Andrew McLean says:
      schrodingers cat says:110:55 am St Andrews?

      I am Airdrie South mate.

      good for you but you didnt say that, you said

      “To be sure of not making a mistake just vote SNP its easier.”

      you might be lucky enough to be in a 3 seat ward where standing 3 snp candidates is an option.

      but not everyone is in such a fortunate position. I only gave the ward of st andrews as an example, and Ill ask again, what should indy supporters there do if there are no snp candidates?.

      btw, it looks like that in all 5 wards in NEF, the snp will only be able to contest 1/3 of the seats, how does “To be sure of not making a mistake just vote SNP its easier.” help us?

    134. Capella says:

      @ Desimond – That doesn’t really explain very much. If UEFA is a business then it can be regulated just like any other business. If there’s a market failure then the state can and should intervene to ensure public service.

      We recently watched the Culture Media and Sport meeting in Glasgow where the dire lack of cultural service to Scotland was highlighted. This is another instance.

      Who made these decisions?

    135. Desimond says:

      Regulated you say?…well that may soon be a thing of the past!

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23288211

    136. Dr Jim says:

      British values

      I’m not British, never been British, not likely to ever be British no matter what anybody says, so why don’t the British give up trying to make me one of them

      It seems that British values are something we all have we’re told, by the British, but I keep seeing British values on my telly every day and they look rotten and I don’t recognise them as anything to do with me, but I have to have them whether I like them or not, say the British

      We vote on stuff and then the British tell me I lost because the British outvoted me, yet I’m one of them, they told me that, but now they say I’m only British when it comes to some things and then I become Scottish which is a thing that’s told what to do by the British

      I wonder if a Martian or other ET type person arrived in Britain how that system of equality that the British always say they have would translate into any language in the universe and yet. the British understand it perfectly

      It must be that when I don’t understand British those will be the times that I revert to being Scottish which I now understand is a regressive gene of some sort that is unable to comprehend stuff that is British because I have’nt fully developed into a fully functioning human yet, so I do thank the British for being so generous as to care for me and run my life until such time as I evolve into one day being British

      Although, I still can’t help thinking when I look at a map of the British Isles the part I live in is mentioned as a place called Scotland and the folk who keep calling themselves British are actually English, from their part of the map, then I come to the conclusion that the English people have been perpetuating a fraud on me and I really am a fully developed human which leads me to the ultimate answer which is

      British values are about lying to people and getting away with it, so I don’t like these British values they’re not good and they don’t have much value to me

    137. Capella says:

      @ Desimond – Exactly! Anothwer reason to stay in the EU.

    138. Breeks says:

      @ Andrew MacLean 10:08

      For the simple reason I don’t like politics.

      My business gets hammered because political activity in my location is corrupt and dysfunctional, and needs a purge of the inept flotsam and jetsam which inhibits the flourishing success story our country could be.

      Of all the undue hardships suffered upon my business, and there are many, they are all external influences which injure my business and confound natural justice. Local government and business support protocols which are corrupt and widely abused, Councillors, MP’s and MSP’s are wholly disinterested, and the Courts are insipid and if anything, collude with the corruption. Justice? Don’t make me laugh.

      A new business in Scotland faces an uphill struggle to survive in a business culture which does not reward enterprise or originality, and to have thoroughly prospering and prosperous business based economy we need a root to branch restructuring of our attitudes, and I mean all our attitudes. Criticise the current system, then sit back as it closes ranks and defends the indefensible. And don’t misunderstand, I am not pushing any right wing Tory agenda, but a broader spectrum of performance than neoliberal commercial imperatives. The current system stinks, and riddled top to bottom with rogues who watch each other backs and think that rubbing along is good business.

      All I want for my business is access to justice and an environment where the competence of my business is the deciding factor on whether it survives or fails. Not the battery of parasitic jobsworths who earn a fat living from the state, yet still cheat the system to reward their pals and line their own pockets, and skew the whole wider economy. It is so widespread people believe it is endemic, and perhaps maybe it is. But not for me. Feck ’em.

      I pray to God we are seeing the collapse of neoliberalism, and an end to the the hateful belittling of craftsmanship, quality, and bespoke originality in the workplace and commercial marketplace. We should not be satisfied with what currently passes for quality. In virtually every sector, from construction to food, it is no such thing. It might be the most economic solution, but there is so much more to life than bare economics.

      It’s a long argument to make, but once the integrity of a trade is defined by its economics, it is no longer defined by its caliber, and you have opened the door for the rogues of poor caliber to set the standard; rogues who thrive because cutting corners and lowering benchmarks wins the economic argument once quality workmanship is rendered an obsolete criterion. It is very difficult for the cowboy traders to survive when quality workmanship is the defining criteria of their activity. Dispense with that benchmark of quality, and corruption and rogues have a field day. Look around. We see the consequences everywhere.

      Our Trades and professions are not evolving anymore. For too many, WW2 was an extinction level event, and neoliberalism has ruthlessly simplified the healthy biodiversity in our economy. I hope it can be undone, but I despair at the lack of caliber across the whole spectrum of modern “professionals”, from MP’s to joiners, it is so very, very rare to find a properly “rounded” good one who is more than a mere facade.

      It makes me very sad that reward and joy of doing my job will not survive into future decades, and all the knowledge, potential and skill I have assembled will go with me to the grave. With independence, there is the slim chance we can devise a better way, but what hope is there when half of us are blind and dumb (stupid not mute) to the merits of simple independent choice?

    139. Petra says:

      @ DavidB at 8:17 …. ‘BBC’.

      Thanks for the list of future media options David (and you’ll know I was being ‘BBC’ facetious!). I’m sure that Alex Salmond outlined his plans in the White Paper too but can’t check what they were right now, as I’m on my IPad. Something along the lines of paying a license fee for a Scottish Broadcasting Service?

      Anyway thinking back gave me a bit of a laugh. One threat after another. Threatened with just about everything under the sun other than we’d be going back to the days of using newspaper to wipe our backsides. The currency was the biggy of course, probably lost us the Referendum, and now the precious ‘we’re no sharing’ pound is going right down the drain. Since 2014 it’s worth around two thirds of what it was previously. Being Better Together’s no quite working oot.

      …………….

      @ Clydebuilt at 9:33am …… ‘Posting problems’.

      I experience this too Clydebuilt but have no idea what causes it.

      …………….

      BBC News / Tory politicians are now comparing Russia to Nazi Germany. Smacks of projection.

      ……………

      @ Call me Dave at 9:01am ….’MORE powers’.

      I see that Professor Gallacher, former Whitehall mandarin, is now telling us to back off, drop our plans for Independence, as Scotland will get more powers following Brexit. I’m totally confused. I thought that Scotland had the most powerfully devolved Parliament in the World? No? Where do we go from here then? The Universe?

      You’d think they’d just drop this guff. We’ve heard it all before. They’ve had chance after chance and botched it. Their smart Alex, sneering attitude towards us, such as the Vow Con, EVEL being announced on the 19/9/2014 and marching out of bars to vote down every amendment to the Scotland Bill didn’t go unnoticed nor will it be forgotten. Shows you how thick and shortsighted they are. We don’t believe one word any of them have to say and let’s face it how much power can a wee powerless country like Brexit England ‘give’ to anyone? They can stuff their powers and take their Nuclear weapons with them before we bang the door behind them on their way out.

    140. Edward says:

      Lenny Hartley @8.27 pm 10 October 2016

      I will be honest regarding the Scottish Government seemingly favouring Heathrow development and say that I think they have lost the plot!
      I saw the articles in the Herald and actually thought the paper was making it up, then I saw Keith Brown interviewed on Scotland 2016 last night and could not believe what he was coming out with!.

      Even the BBC interviewer, was surprised and found the comments from Keith Brown didn’t make much sense.

      The Scottish Government should not be favouring ANY airport in the London area, their main focus should be 100% on developing Scotland’s air links to the world.
      If anyone actually thinks that by adding a runway at either Gatwick or Heathrow will make any difference to Scotland’s tourism or export trade, are living in cloud cuckoo land!

      Tourists are more interested in the cost of travel and the ease of travel, so offer them a direct flight
      that’s reasonably priced to where they want to go, they will take that every time. They do not want to be bouncing around different terminals transiting between flights and paying extra (addition APD in the UK) for that privilege! Keith Brown seemed to be suggesting that he would rather support Heathrow and help the UK as if they didn’t then the likes of Amsterdam or Istanbul would thrive

      With every passenger flight, you have air freight being carried. So with more direct flights from Scotland, there is increased air export freight capacity, ergo competitive freight rates making Scottish manufacturers and producers more competitive and therefore grows.

      In England, most pure freighter aircraft fly from/to Stansted, Manchester and Heathrow
      In Scotland, Prestwick is used by Cargolux on its Luxembourg to JFK run, both Edinburgh and Glasgow see its fair share of courier cargo flights operated by DHL, UPS and Star Air

      But the Scottish Government really needs to up its game and start focusing on maintaining growth at Scotland’s airports and for direct routes, look at ways of making Scottish airports hubs for airlines

      The likes of Heathrow and Gatwick only see Scotland as a region to feed into them to help them grow. The so called flag carrier, British Airways sees it the same way, it’s about time this was turned around

    141. davidb says:

      @ Mr Pfeffers

      You misunderstand what I am saying.

      To receive any live broadcasts – and now any BBC content on catch up – you are required to obtain a TV licence. If we have no licence requirement you are freed from the tax.

      I know that most countries do indeed licence TV’s. Ireland does, France and Germany too. But I am arguing that the BBC or SBC is not required. For the majority of content the public do actually consume, the modern marketplace adequately serves the demand.

      My only concession is a small space for the “State” broadcast of news and information, which frankly – like News24 or Parliament channel just now – there is likely to be little take up of anyway.

      Encouraging local companies to produce TV content is an issue, but I don’t see why that needs a hypothecated tax and a monolithic public broadcaster to provide it.

      So “Rubbish” may well be what the BBC produces, but is perhaps an overquick and incorrect response to my original suggestion.

      Incidentally, a vote winning proposition to those who basically watch Sky is surely that they don’t have to pay £145 a year over and above the Sky sub.

      Vote for independence, spend your $145 anywhere you like.

    142. yesindyref2 says:

      @Fairliered
      I think there’s going to be a second independent, so you could do SNP, SNP, Ind, Ind, X, X, Tory and leave blank, where X is any other candidate. Yes, Tom is better than Alex. Haven’t checked the voting records though, and I never have time for the wee (newsquest owned) paper.

    143. Stoker says:

      davidb wrote on 11 October, 2016 at 8:17am
      “And the solution is simple enough. No TV licences in independent Scotland. Free to Air channels just that – free. Buy a sub to Sky, Netflix, BT, Amazon. Watch what you like – no licence required.”

      Robert Peffers partially quoted on 11 October, 2016 at 10:54 am
      “… Buy a sub to Sky, Netflix, BT, Amazon. Watch what you like – no licence required.”

      Then Robert Peffers retorted:
      “Rubbish! The TV licence is just that – a licence to watch TV broadcasts “FROM ANY SOURCE”. It is NOT a licence just to watch the BBC.”

      Robert, i think if you read davidb’ full post and exchanges with Petra they were all having a laugh and he offered a solution to tv licensing in a future independent Scotland. He was not stating his comment was the current situation.

    144. yesindyref2 says:

      @orri
      That thing about putting the last SNP candidate may be right, but the local SNP activists will have carefully worked this out to split the SNP vote the way they want it, so in the unlikely event they don’t get to talk to you – seek them out! It’s done by grid / map reference effectively.

    145. Stoker says:

      davidb (12:21pm)

      Sorry for cross post davidb. Had prepped my response to Robert and before i got the chance to submit it i had to take in a delivery and on my return i just hit submit without checking first if anyone had responded. It’s no like Robert to get his facts wrong, eh! Oh well, no harm done! 🙂

    146. Dr Jim says:

      No such thing as a TV licence it’s a government tax just the same as council tax or road tax which they now call road fund licence to divert you from the word tax
      If it was a BBC licence fee then the BBC would collect the money but they don’t the government does and then pays the BBC a portion of that money, it’s a con and always has been

    147. Clapper57 says:

      @Petra says ” I thought that Scotland had the most powerfully devolved Parliament in the World? No? Where do we go from here then? The Universe”?

      Well Petra, I think now perhaps it’s at that stage of into infinity and beyond ?

      You are, of course, spot on as usual. Should this empty rhetoric SHEEITE not be the very SHEEITE that should be getting CHALLENGED by the MSM instead of being reported as a NEW advance on all previous (empty) SHEEITE offerings ?

      This is another yoon mission in ‘ Keeping the natives down but we have to say it to try and make/keep them happy’. Brexit damage limitation exercise.They see the natives are restless and so they are rolling out the NEW POWERS matrix.Pity they fail to recognise this is now a spent force and they really need to change the record as it is now becoming very boring being constantly on replay.

      Where are all the so very vocal BT people pre Indy ref, who endorsed The Vow, that wonderful Vow which is coming to a parliament near you , the Vow to end all Vows? Why is there so much silence ( from BT high profile charlatans) about us NOW having to leave the EU when it was listed as a potential catastrophe for Scotland via project fear should we choose Indy ? Why is no one who has a platform to voice opinion via MSM on BT side willing to acknowledge the broken promises made pre Indy ?

      Why the f*ck are we all having to regurgitate the same sheeite over and over again because of the same sheeite being thrown at us over and over again by the BT mob ?

      Questions we constantly have to ask but no answers we are EVER given by BT, instead they spin their little lies and twist it all into their version of the truth and evade the real questions and honest answers by talking down Scotland as a country worthy of independence.

      I fear my blood pressure is suffering which perhaps proves being TOGETHER is definitely not BETTER for my health.

      ps. Q. When is new powers not new powers ? A. When promised by any one individual or organisation linked to the ethos endorsed by BT.

      pps. Questions I asked above re BT peeps were purely rhetorical only….no answers required…..as per feckin usual.

      Have a good day Petra and all who write posts on here.Hopefully see some of you on Saturday October 22 in Edinburgh which I believe is being called ‘Unchain the Unicorn’ Indy march .

    148. Andrew McLean says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      what you should do, as you say, is Vote SNP, but if you are going to vote “independent” or a so called Independence candidate its up to you to find out what they actually are. It looks like In Airdrie south we will have three SNP, out of 4 seats but dont quote me on that , one Independent may stand Deryck Beaumont https://electionleaflets.org/leaflets/2219/ he wants to start an oil welth fund but he also says “Promote independence for Scotland if that proves to be the best route of achieving the above.” quite how he intends to persuade Westminster to give us all the oil revenue as a “Independent” council member is beyond me, actually the rest of his aims sound like a dippy contestant on Miss World?
      So unless the SNP put up 4, then no, Just voting 1.2.3. as you say in the order best to get them elected http://www.northlanarkshire.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=24231

    149. yesindyref2 says:

      @schrodingers cat
      Mostly I agree with you, just the realtively unimportant thing about not voting unionist candidates at all – you say DON’T pus unionists at all, I say you can put them at the end of the list if you have a preference for one – like the Conservative over Alex Gallagher. And since we had a stong but very civilised argument about the Holyrooed Elections, perhaps other readers can make some conclusions from that.

      I would say that everyone should try to check with their local party though, they will or should have a strategy.

      The main thing is though that in this thread there’s a whole load of people who don’t know at all, and others have very different views. And that’s the fault of the SNP HQ – it’s their job to do this stuff, but they live in an ivory tower.

      So basically, having my A4 sheet and having presented it to mixed reactions to the rest of the committee, it is a subject for the next meeting, but I’m going to escalate this all the way up, including using my bus pass if neccessary and camping out on the steps of Bute House to see the high heid yin herslef until I get to be seen!

      This IS very important, and to get done soon. The bitterness between SNP and the other parties really started getting in a few months before Holyrood. Well, for Holyrood with AMS there was nothing much to do. But for the council elections the total facts being out there will help all pro-indy parties, and it’s simple: with STV voting for other pro-indy parties after voting for your own party is a GOOD THING.

      Then if the Rev comes out with an article, you and I can STFU! And go back to sleep 🙂

    150. orri says:

      1) You can’t watch live broadcasts without a license.
      2) Part of the license fee, if not all of it, funds the BBC
      3) You need a license to watch the BBC online.

      In making those changes the government has made it even more clear that effectively in order to watch live tv in the UK you need a license that includes a major donation to the BBC. They don’t offer a version that says no fucking BBC fanks. The tories went off their tits when union members had no option about paying towards Labour.

      Even worse the proposed changes to the BBC include clauses that mean it will have a stated bias towards supporting the continuation of the union. That doesn’t mean that it will be openly anti-SNP but it certainly means it can be.

      I am presently using Kodi which needs surprisingly little bandwidth. In the near future I might simply drop SKY as without a TV licence I’m not sure I want to make it easy for the BBC to prove I watch live TV. I was going to wait till I could get FTC broadband but don’t see the point any more. I’ll be sure to tell SKY why I’m quitting.

    151. Andrew McLean says:

      Breeks says:
      11 October, 2016 at 12:00 pm
      @ Andrew MacLean 10:08

      “For the simple reason I don’t like politics.”
      Really? This is a political blog, all you ever talk about is politics Breeks.

      apart from that I agree with everything you say.

    152. galamcennalath says:

      Picked this up in Twitter. Fascinating!

      Who uses new media? Well this survey is either contains only Yes supporters, or No supporters simply don’t use new media!

      https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308985934_Who_is_reading_the_new_media_in_Scotland

      It is tantalising to believe that the road to success is to get more NOs onto WoS and other sites!

      However, it may be simply that NOs did want to do the survey, for some reason.

    153. schrodingers cat says:

      dads, if you are in a position in your ward to determine who your favourite unionist is, well done and good luck to you, but that is probably a step too far even for me. The opposite end of Andrews statement, “just vote snp, its easier”

      one thing i would disagree with is the idea that “someone” in your branch will do this for you. even the elected councillors in my branch claim they do not have access to the results from the table monitoring tallies taken during the 2015 and 2016 election results. i doubt few would would be able to work out what the optimal number of snp candidates for each ward would be, let alone work out what the correct tactic for snp voters is to maximising the return of snp candidates, ie, snp 1&2 in one half of the ward and snp2&1 in another. If indeed this were to be considered

      more worrying is the central office not being able to announce the completion of their vetting process until march, I intend to ask them if they could release the names of accepted candidates as and when they clear the vetting process.

      the snp is still stuggling with the huge intake of new members and isnt the well oiled campaign machine many believe it to be.

    154. Petra says:

      Thanks for that Galamcennalath. What a survey! Wings out in front. Well done Stu / posters. That’ll not go down well with The Lying Daily Scottish media. Stick right in their craw. Few people trust them? Surprise, surprise.

      92% voted for Independence. 86% wanted a Referendum rerun within 2 years. The Scots, many at Degree level, not so stupid all. The ‘oldies’ bashing away online.

      VERY few no voters? Well maybe there wasn’t so many after all. I knew literally hundreds of Yes voters and only two people who voted no. Do we really believe, as an example, YouGov polling results?

      Maybe time for Stu to fundraise to carry out a really comprehensive survey, of thousands of people, right across Scotland. Or just wait for a bit yet, that is, until we see ‘the white of their eyes’.

    155. yesindyref2 says:

      @schrodingers cat
      Indeed. It did come up that they’re struggling with the huge intake – I said it’s been 2 years! Sad thing is that in that intake there’s a lot of people who could help out and are totally wasted. Bl*dy stupid party. My branch seems to be well clued up though as far as that’s concerned – I did know this before and the committee meeting – my first – confirmed that. Yes, the vetting process is stupid, it means councillor candidates can not actually say officially they’re candidates, yet campaigning is already starting in general terms.

      I was at the depute hustings in Greenock 2 weeks ago and my question for the 4 was “Branch meetings can be very boring, what would you intend doing abut that?”. After that one of the committee asked me to stand! I did make it clear when I was nominated that I was basically unaligned, in it for Indy, they just kind of looked at me. I think they’re all strong YES, not just along for the ride. The immediate hustings then was loud, squawking and crying, intense competition for the committee place (one without portfolio). Fortunately someone passed by outside with a chip poke and all the gulls flew away.

    156. yesindyref2 says:

      Cat
      My first contribution by the way is to have an item stuck on the standard meeting agenda – “Open Discussion”. Probably after AOCB. Attendance is about 7% of the branch membership and I’d like to see that increase a lot. My feeling is that most of the new intake aren’t into the usual reports and stuff, they’re in it for Indy like me. I’ll maybe do a wee write up something like “Open Discussion – 15 minutes – this is whatever members want to talk about, like currency for an Indy Scotland, Brexit, the EU, fracking, GERS or even fracking GERS”. To try to get an interest going. From the point of view of the SNP if meetings are more interesting, and more attend, they may get more volunteers for the usual activities, leaflets that stuff.

    157. schrodingers cat says:

      The immediate hustings then was loud, squawking and crying, intense competition for the committee place

      sounds familiar

      maybe i should take a chip poke to the next meeting?

    158. Thepnr says:

      @Petra

      “Maybe time for Stu to fundraise to carry out a really comprehensive survey, of thousands of people, right across Scotland. Or just wait for a bit yet, that is, until we see ‘the white of their eyes’.”

      I agree, though I think it should be done by “ourselves”. Get an expert to frame the questions, decide on the correct demographics and get about 50 volunteers to go do the survey door to door.

      I’d believe a survey compiled by Wings provided the volunteers were honest and didn’t allow themselves to be carried away.

      If you want a job done right, then do it yourself!

    159. Rock says:

      Liz g,

      “Rock @ 6.34
      If the Scotland Act forbids Holyrood from holding a referendum on Scottish independence…. that’s news to me.”

      Can Holyrood legally hold an independence referendum without Westminster’s approval?

      Robert Peffers says Yes.

      What do you say?

    160. Rock says:

      Liz g,

      “I must admit that you see to have the answer you want already in your mind.Also you seem to be trying to steer Robert Peffers into giving it to you.
      Can I ask why and for what purpose?”

      Robert Peffers’ extensive legal and historic essays posted here suggest that it would be perfectly legal for the Scottish parliament to vote for independence.

      I am not an expert but I want to know what Robert Peffers’ expert opinion is.

      You can’t have failed to notice that Robert Peffers who posts extensive essays here has shied away from answering a simple question.

      Why?

    161. Breeks says:

      Andrew McLean 1:29

      This is a pro Independence blog and that’s the only reason I’m here. That and the occasional heart warming insight into Scotland’s constitutional history.

      I just want more of “us” and fewer of “them”, and with all due respect to those who think differently from me, pure politics, elections, hung parliaments, and especially the Rise and Fall of Scottish Labour bores me rigid frankly.

      Independence is sitting there right in front of us, yet we won’t step over the threshold because the unionists might plunge the country into civil war. It seems our fear of upsetting their sensibilities greatly exceeds their fear of upsetting ours. They would plunge their country into chaos where we would not. I honestly wish I could say I felt good about that, but in all honesty, sometimes I don’t. Where is our anger and our passion that makes us just as potent and unpredictable? Are we supposed to be the ones shaking things up? Relax, relax, the mind occasionally wanders to such places, but good sense brings me back.

      I suppose you might say I’m into crisis politics. The propaganda on our TV’s is a crisis for me, and I want to know what my government will do about it. Not much it seems.

      The squandering of Scotland’s oil is another crisis robbing our kids of a better life and I want to know what my government will do about it. Again, not very much.

      The de industrialisation of Scotland is another crisis without a remedy.

      Being dragged kicking and screaming out of Europe is another crisis. Thankfully for once, myself and my government seem to be on the same wavelength, and yet, still, there is no substance or ultimatum. Theresa May – The bottom line is Theresa, that Scotland is not exiting Europe. You can jump and scream, throw a tantrum, dance all around the houses, but when you’re done, that bottom line is right here waiting for you. We’re not leaving Europe. I take it most pro independence people will agree with me there. Ok. Fine. But if that is the bottom line, then why don’t we just cut to the chase and get right to it? I don’t want a compromise over access to the free market. It’s 300 years of UK “compromises” which I want to see the back of because they invariably end up with my country being shafted.

      You keep on telling me to vote SNP, and I do, but there are times when you seem as shy of open goal as our football team. It falls to angry citizens to carry the fight, like the very resource we enjoy here on Wings. Why is it left to private individuals to agitate for a better deal for Scotland? On sheer volume of output alone Wings could knock the SNP into a cocked hat. How can that be right? When does the SNP start to augment the work of Independentists father than merely demanding their vote? We want more from you than simply holding office until the next election. We want leadership to coordinate our disparate efforts into achieving our one common goal.

      Why do we even need Brexit to force our hand? Even Brexit isn’t home grown Union-breaking, it’s all the work of others. They lead, we follow.

      If we fail, then we will try again. Then again. Then again. It seems we are dangerously close to allowing the fear of defeat to hamper our chances of winning. I am tired of pursuing independence as the last resort we should only indulge with utmost reluctance. It is not the last resort, it is the most obvious, shining and uplifting solution.

    162. Liz g says:

      Rock @ 6.22 & 6.29
      Ofcourse they can.. Holyrood can hold a referendum on Scottish independence when ever they like.
      There’s no law that says that they can’t.
      On the other hand there is no law that says that they can.
      So while a referendum can be held it wouldn’t have the force of law behind it.
      But there is no law stopping it.
      We would be exercising the political power the law says we have.
      You keep saying you are asking a simple question….. you’re not, youre really not.
      When you say would it be leagal you need to be more clear
      about what you mean by legal.
      There is a world of difference between Political Soverenty and Legal Soverenty.
      While Robert tries to explain it and dose a fantastic job,he can no more tell you what can and can’t happen according to law if the law you are asking about doesn’t exist yet,than he could say how long a piece of string is.
      What he can tell about is the law’s that are there and according to what they say power/Soverenty is and always has been ours for the taking.
      How we go about taking it is what we are figuring out here.

    163. Hamish100 says:

      If the people of Scotland are invited to vote on independence and they say Yes it would be difficult for any party to ignore– although tank commander, dugdale and others do in relation to the material change of the EU.
      They are fighting now on the side of brexiters.
      Let us say the people say NO to iScEU. What would Dugddale and Davidson say?

      It is timing here. It is on our side at the moment as coming out of the EU bites, The tories and Labour infight and other issues continue which undermine the UK government such as Syria, Brent crude price wil be higher and the Scottish Fisherman realise control will still rest with the English fleet despite the promises.
      We need to engage now with our new voters in 2-3 years time who are 14 etc. They are positively for Scotland in the EU judging by comments I have heard from family and friends. For the brexiters and NO they are a lost cause. The undecided’s and those who didn’t vote lost time are our game changers.

    164. orri says:

      @liz

      Actually there is a law that says Holyrood can hold a referendum. It’s part of the powers devolved to them.

      What Holyrood can’t do is legislate on constitutional matters.

      The mandate the SNP had the last time was to hold a referendum that if passed would allow them to negotiate Scotland’s independence. That was perfectly “legal” and within the powers devolved. The real fun if that had been the case was that Cameron and Westminster would almost certainly have to capitulate. Certainly they might contest that somehow the vote was suspect.

      To preempt that the SNP would have invited international observers. That last bit is perhaps one of the reasons they offered to transfer the power to hold a referendum binding on Westminster.

      Technically Holyrood doesn’t have the power to declare independence even if a referendum gave them a mandate to do so. Practically Holyrood could hold a referendum transferring or granting them the power to do so or any other powers. Westminster might try to ignore that but any contest on the legality would take place under our law.

      The term devolution is a misnomer as far as Holyrood goes. The way it works is we, the scottish people, are sovereign and we elect representatives who exercise our sovereignty. The powers Holyrood holds were transferred from our MPs at Westminster to our MSPs there. Devolution implies that somehow they originate at Westminster.

    165. Rock says:

      orri,

      “@liz

      Actually there is a law that says Holyrood can hold a referendum. It’s part of the powers devolved to them.”

      A referendum on independence without Westminster’s approval?

      Which law?

    166. Rock says:

      Liz g,

      “You keep saying you are asking a simple question….. you’re not, youre really not.
      When you say would it be leagal you need to be more clear
      about what you mean by legal.

      It is a very simple question for Robert Peffers who is an expert on Scottish legal affairs and history.

      “Legal” means “Legal”. It cannot be any more clear than that.

      If the current Scottish parliament voted by a majority vote for independence, is there any SCOTTISH LAW that would make it ILLEGAL?

      If there is, which one?

      The answer is either Yes, in which case there must be some law that makes it illegal.

      Or it is No, in which case there is no such law.

      “There is a world of difference between Political Soverenty and Legal Soverenty.”

      What difference may I ask?

      Is Scotland “politically sovereign”?

      Is Scotland “legally sovereign”?

      Or neither?

    167. Liz g says:

      Orri @ 1.27
      Thanks for answering,but I did know that Holyrood has the power to hold a consulting referendum.

      But Rock seems to want absolute answers,in fact he originally said it was a yes or no question as in would it be legal till I said no it wouldn’t be legal.(as in Legally Binding)

      So I tried Yes they could have one.(as in there is nothing stopping them)

      And I am afraid that a fair few posts later he is still saying it is a simple yes or no question

    168. Liz g says:

      Rock @ 7.12
      Scotland is Both politically & Legally Sovereign

      Legal Soverenty – There is a Law that has been made and written down that declared who has the Soverenty.

      Political Soverenty – The people who have that Soverenty give it to the group of people that they want to make all the other laws.

      Popular Soverenty – Everyone agrees that this is how we will run things and when this group of people make laws we will keep to them. (This is sometimes called the sovereign will of the people ,but not in England)

      I have no way of knowing what is or is not a simple matter for Robert Peffers but I am as certain as I can be neither do you.

      You are wrong when you say if something’s not legal it must be illegal, remember I told you that Divorcing a Leagal wife doesn’t make an Illegal wife.

      As to the other questions…..the answers are in my previous posts……. look again and if you don’t understand just ask.

    169. Liz g says:

      Orri further to my reply to you @ 8.19

      What I left out was… when I said Rock was asking Robert Peffers about a law that doesn’t exist.
      I ment a law that says Holyrood can have a referendum on Independence or that Holyrood can’t have a referendum on Independence.

      I put it that way because while not strictly accurate that seemed to me to be specifically what he wants answered.
      And I thought he might view stating that Holyrood can’t legislate on Constutional matters as side stepping the question.
      It’s a bit like if he had asked what makes a car go.
      Robert Peffers would have explained the working of the internal combustion engine.
      I would have just said The engine,so long as you give it petrol.
      Both are correct but neither seem to be the answer Rock is looking for.

    170. Orri says:

      @Rock

      What part of the devolved powers including an unlimited right to hold referenda don’t you get?

      It doesn’t matter one whit that Holyrood can’t legislate on the constitution. It can discuss changes to it all it wants and it can suggest the results of those discussions to Westminster. Obviously Westminster can sling them a deafie if it wants. Same as Davidson wants us to get back in her box. That’s where consulting the public through a referendum comes to the rescue. It’s also where case history regarding Parliamentary Sovereignty and it’s non existence in Scotland also comes in to play.

      So the combination of facts is,

      Despite the power to actually legislate on independence being reserved due to it being a constitutional issue Holyrood can ask for a mandate to negotiate our independence.

      In Scotland the law of Scotland applies. Westminster is not sovereign the people are. If we designate Holyrood to represent us in obtaining our independence then under our law system they become fully empowered to do so.

      So in answer to your question at present Holyrood can’t legally declare independence. After a Yes vote they could provided the vote itself could not be reasonably contested.

    171. Brian Powell says:

      See the National tomorrow, shiteing on the doorstep again.

    172. Liz g says:

      Rock Re Orris response to you @ 10.14
      Please don’t repeat the assertion’s that Holyrood because we the Sovereign Scot’s voted for it they hold our Soverenty,so therefore can vote for Independence in that parliament if they want to.
      Just so you are clear.

      Scotland gave her Soverenty to Westminster MP’s to look after.
      Those MPs working within that system gave a wee bit of that Soverenty back up the road,to Holyrood.
      A tiny bit to the EU but most of it is still held in Westminster.

      That won’t change unless and until the people (who Own the Soverenty)say it is to change.
      Holyrood only really look’s out for the bits of Soverenty that Westminster sent back.
      But if the Sovereigns (us) decided that we want these arrangements looked at again, then we can choose to have Holyrood organise it .
      We tell our main Sovereign holders in Westminster to make it happen,thats where they can’t Legally stop us.

    173. Rock says:

      Orri,

      “@Rock

      What part of the devolved powers including an unlimited right to hold referenda don’t you get?”

      Could you specify WHICH devolved power gives an unlimited right to hold referenda, especially one on independence.

    174. Rock says:

      Liz g,

      “Scotland gave her Soverenty to Westminster MP’s to look after.
      Those MPs working within that system gave a wee bit of that Soverenty back up the road,to Holyrood.
      A tiny bit to the EU but most of it is still held in Westminster.

      That won’t change unless and until the people (who Own the Soverenty)say it is to change.
      Holyrood only really look’s out for the bits of Soverenty that Westminster sent back.”

      So your answer to my question is:

      If the current Scottish parliament voted by a majority vote for independence, it would be illegal.

      Does legal and history expert Robert Peffers agree with you?

    175. Rock says:

      Liz g ,

      “Scotland gave her Soverenty to Westminster MP’s to look after.
      Those MPs working within that system gave a wee bit of that Soverenty back up the road,to Holyrood.
      A tiny bit to the EU but most of it is still held in Westminster.

      That won’t change unless and until the people (who Own the Soverenty)say it is to change.”

      “the people (who Own the Soverenty)” can say absolutely nothing because the only right they have is to elect Westminster and Holyrood MPs, who in turn can do no more than the powers given to them by Westminster and Holyrood.

      A Scottish dog has infinitely more “sovereignty” than a Scot – it can at least bite someone it doesn’t like.

      Scots cannot even impeach a lying MP (Carmichael).

      The Scottish people have absolutely no means of calling a referendum themselves. The only thing they can do is vote for a party which might have calling a referendum in its manifesto.

      After more than 300 years as a colony, we should really stop pretending that we are sovereign.

    176. Rock says:

      As the Rev. Stuart Campbell says in his current article:

      “The public vote in referendums, they don’t get to decide whether they happen or not – that’s Parliament’s job.”

      Scots are far from “sovereign”.

    177. Liz g says:

      Rock @ 6.37 & 6.50
      Are you saying that you disagree?

      Are you saying that you disagree because of something Stu said?
      Can you say which bit you disagree with,and why?
      Do you know of a law that provides a basis of your premise?
      Can I ask which one.

      This conversation is staying on this thread,thats non negotiable,as I am not yet sure if you are being obtuse,but am for now amused.
      Also
      Please note I am not yet young enough to know everything.

    178. Liz g says:

      Rock @ 6.28
      You claim Robert Peffers is a legal & history expert.
      I must admit I have never read that he has said this, but am willing to be corrected.

      With a view to being able to make a judgement on you’re differing opinions.
      can I ask, what is your, specially , please forgive me if I make the assumption that to argue with an acknowledged expert, a working knowledge of the subject,even if only self taught is pretty mandatory??
      Fair enough,…if,…. you don’t…just say so,
      But I took a lot of time to answer you ,so don’t you agree that now a more detailed explanation of your position is warranted??

    179. Liz g says:

      Rock
      So Sorry to be a pain with multiple posts.

      But when you say we (the Scot’s;) cannot even “IMPEACH” Carmichael…..Can you tell me if the ability to IMPEACH is in fact A Scottish Law if it is Which One.

      If we can’t IMPEACH like you say can you tell me which Scottish Law says it’s illegal???

      Now ye mentioned it ah wiz jist wondering??

    180. Rock says:

      Liz g,

      “Rock
      So Sorry to be a pain with multiple posts.

      But when you say we (the Scot’s;) cannot even “IMPEACH” Carmichael…..Can you tell me if the ability to IMPEACH is in fact A Scottish Law if it is Which One.

      If we can’t IMPEACH like you say can you tell me which Scottish Law says it’s illegal???

      Now ye mentioned it ah wiz jist wondering??

      If the Scots are “sovereign”, they can force an MP who got elected by lying about our First Minister to vacate his seat.

      A sovereign Scottish dog could bite Carmichael if it liked, and I hope one does.

      But pretendy “sovereign” Scots have to accept Carmichael as a legally elected Scottish MP after losing hundred thousand or more pounds in the process.

      Apparently “sovereign” Scots can get rid of the monarch if they want to.

      Tell me how they can get rid of the purring queen if they can’t even get rid of the proven liar Carmichael?

      When we stop pretending that we are “sovereign” we might be ready for independence.

    181. Rock says:

      Liz g,

      “Rock @ 6.28
      You claim Robert Peffers is a legal & history expert.
      I must admit I have never read that he has said this, but am willing to be corrected.”

      If you have been reading his posts, it goes without saying that Robert Peffers thinks he is the topmost expert on Scottish legal and historic affairs.

      While you have answered that a majority vote for independence by the current Scottish parliament would be illegal, Mr Peffers has shied away from giving an answer.



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