The guest editor
We assume Danny Alexander has been writing for the Record this morning.
We still haven’t been issued with our special UK Goverment Scottish Independence Costs Calculator by the Treasury, but we nevertheless still feel fairly confident that £550 million minus £250 million is £300 million, not £3 billion.
It’s not just a clumsy typo where someone’s typed an extra zero, because it’s in the headline AND the text. And it’s not that someone doesn’t understand the numbers, because there are roughly a million households in Scotland and £300m would therefore indeed be roughly £280 for each one.
(The article is abominably written, and the £550m must in fact logically refer to the whole UK, not the rest of the UK, but that doesn’t explain the discrepancy.)
We won’t get into the debate about whether the underlying claim is true – we’re just focusing on the arithmetic on this particular occasion. But it’s interesting to note how the No campaign are ramping up the threats.
It’s only three months ago, after all, that the UK government was solemnly issuing warnings that a Yes vote would see energy bills increase by “between £38 and £189”, again specifically because of green subsidies. Now the highest end of that estimate has been hiked by a whopping 50%, even before the Record multiplies it by 10.
By September, we expect a warning that we’ll all have to set fire to our children just to stay warm. The Daily Record is clearly impatient to cut to the chase.
So much for the Daily Record starting decent coverage of Scottish democracy. It will never be forgotten.
I thought it meant UK paid £550 million and Scots £250 million, totalling £800 million. Still not £3 billion – and frankly, I’ve long stopped believing any of this too wee, too poor nonsense anyway.
In EBC breakfast time this morn the money man was waffling on about pensions in an Independent Scotland. Neither he nor the presenter could hide their sneers. His reference to the Scottish NationalIST Party is more than a sematic error and all too common.
Things are looking up! The 12x exaggeration factor is now only 10x so perhaps in a century or two it might come down to parity.
For those who keep saying the DR is changing, dream on.
Threats, ridicule, and cold condemnation of rights.
Kurrist! How those bastards hate democracy at work.
The “thinking” must be that, since the previous dire warnings have not killed the YES vote stone dead, then even direr warnings should be issued. The direst warnings will be reserved for end of August.
Seriously, is anyone listening to all this hysteria?
Incidentally, Professor Hughes has something of a history of doom-laden warnings about the cost of green energy, in or out of the UK:
link to research.ed.ac.uk
Brian Wilson also harking on about this in Scotsman .. must be the Poorer Together press release of the day.
One thing is certain fuel bills will rise with we vote No to pay for the vast nuclear power subsidy.
Its strange that a UK minister part of a government that has agreed a subsidy for new nuclear power stations in England of over £90 a megawatt hour should hold the Scottish government to account for subsidising its own renewables at less than half this cost – and also achieving binding EU targets that the R-UK will spectacularly miss.
Scottish renewables are getting cheaper over time but the reverse is true in England and Wales as the R-UK switches to expensive offshore wind and small scale PV. The subsidy cost of all Scottish renewables in 2020, not just the farms installed after independence, will be about £44 a megawatt hour compared to £93 in England and Wales.
link to scottishenergynews.com
Daily Record tut tut
Scotland is surplus in fuel and energy exports 25%.
The rest of the UK benefits from Scottish fuel and energy. It also helps the UK balance of payments.
Westminster blocks investment in EU renewable grants to Scotland. Chinese investment is used by Westminster, for more expensive Nuclear energy.
Any investment in Scottish energy benefits the rest of the UK. Scotland pays a higher price for energy in the UK 10% higher, as it is colder in the North. To standardise energy prices in the UK. Scotland would pay 10% less the rest of the UK would pay 1% more. The energy Companies wanted to charge less for those nearer the source. Ie Scotland. Westminster refused permission.
An Independent Scotland would be free to control or tax energy exports. There is no way Scotland would be short of (cheaper) energy.
The D R also had another scare story by Sam galbraith about cross border medical treatment, despite Great Ormond Street,s press release of 30/95 reassuring us that care contracts with other countries already exist.But why let the truth get in the way of a sensational headline?
“I thought it meant UK paid £550 million and Scots £250 million, totalling £800 million.”
It’s so badly written it’s hard to tell. But that doesn’t make sense – in that case Scotland would lose out on £550m a year, not just £300m.
Will there be a special fuel allowance …. I don’t have any children….
Sorry, should be 30/05.
Wow misrepresentation and innumerate all in one article. The DR is going for the grand slam of comic editorial.
I don’t think it would be prudent to set fire to our children – the Whitehall orthodoxy is that we would have to eat them instead.
So its clear we need to stay in the UK where energy bills have gone down year on year…oh wait a minute.
Remind me where the Ruk get most of their electricity from and the water to generate it. I’m sure they will continue to use Scottish electricity for their cups of tea after Independence. Of course it may be dearer for them if they have a different currency and an imposed vitual or imaginary border patrol. They must think people in Scotland zip up the back and swallow anything thrown at them. Quite the contrary I expect many are more determined to vote Yes
There’s no indication in the piece where this £3billion figure comes from at all, so far as I can see. It certainly isn’t from taking £250m from £500million, that’s for sure – those two figures need to be ADDED together to produce the £800million total UK subsidy, it makes no sense to deduct the Scottish amount from the rUK one.
I’m totally at a loss to explain/understand what the Record are on about.
“I don’t think it would be prudent to set fire to our children – the Whitehall orthodoxy is that we would have to eat them instead.”
Yeah, but they’re not MONSTERS. They wouldn’t demand that we eat them RAW.
At least their should be a big spike in adoption applications. Panic over I have seven dogs , they should keep me warm for a while .
@Gizzit
“I don’t think it would be prudent to set fire to our children – the Whitehall orthodoxy is that we would have to eat them instead.”
Well you could combine winter heating with a nice summery barbecue
hehe.
Did the mistake arise because we pay more to feed in green energy to the grid..oh wait…
I don’t suppose there’s any mention of the £36bn subsidy costs to all UK households for the new nuclear power plant?
“those two figures need to be ADDED together to produce the £800million total UK subsidy”
To make the numbers work on ANY level I think we have to assume that the £800m breaks down as:
£250m Scotland
£300m rest of UK
£250m outside of UK
(Presumably because most of our energy companies are foreign-owned.)
Do you think the average DR reader will notice?
I am Just Stunned by the barefaced hype and lies. I am concerned that more than just the elderly and blinkered Grannie Labour will believe it.
I would – good rad socialist that I am – want our reps. to do something about the factual inaccuracies. Except they are the source.
Off to staff a Yes Stall at Stoney Folk Festival.
My point has already been made while I was typing, I see.
Sturat: It’s so badly written it’s hard to tell.
There’s an implicit assumption in your comment Alexander and his band are clever, intelligent people, ever vigilant of detail and accuracy, rather than the dullards they are happiest following templates instructions from party leaders.
For some eye watering estimates of decommissioning costs and runaway costing cast a butcher’s at this from Wiki re nuclear power plants.
In 2005 the cost of decommissioning these sites was planned at £55.8 billion, with Sellafield requiring £31.5 billion.[4] However in 2006 the NDA reported that the cost of cleaning up existing waste was higher than previously thought, and gave a new estimated decommissioning cost of about £72 billion over a 100 year period.[5] In 2008 estimated decommissioning costs increased to £73.6 billion, or after taking account of discount rates £44.1 billion.[6] A 2006 estimate foresaw £14bn of offsetting income from reprocessing fuel at Sellafield.[5] In 2009 the NDA sold land near three existing reactor sites for expected new nuclear power stations, for over £200m.[7]
In 2013 a critical Public Accounts Committee report stated that the private consortium managing Sellafield has failed to reduce costs and delays. Since 2005 the annual costs of operating Sellafield had increased from £900 million to about £1.6 billion. The estimated lifetime cost of dealing with the Sellafield site had increased to £67.5 billion.[8][9]
In March 2012, the total undiscounted cost of decommissioning all sites was estimated at £100 billion.[10]
I am sure an estimate made in 2014 would be a magnox degree of difference on the 2012 estimate.
Maybe this is just the DR idea of balance.
After all how many of these stories are equal to printing the potential future NHS projection?
But at least they are trying harder than Naughtie, Andrew Neil et al
“Locusts to plague an independent Scotland”.
“I thought it meant UK paid £550 million and Scots £250 million, totalling £800 million.”
It’s so badly written it’s hard to tell. But that doesn’t make sense – in that case Scotland would lose out on all £550m a year, not just £300m.
Agreed.
The figure quoted also suggests a total for the Capital Investment, it doesn’t separate how much was direct investment from the Energy companies and how much was Government subsidy. Whole article is meaningless!
Either way how much of a hike the Scottish consumer would see is pure speculation, the Energy companies will set a price for the energy and charge everybody, they received subsidy not the people of Scotland (Have I got that right?)
I can’t take seriously anything that mentions green energy subsidies in isolation. Nuclear and fossil energy are also subsidised in the UK. More-so than green according to some reports.
Perhaps Scotland can save money by not subsidising fossil and nuclear energy even if it increases green subsidies.
Reset to default once again. If a moderately positive poll (survation) provokes such panic in the M.S.M can you imagine what will prevail when the first 50+ Yes poll breaks. Slash and burn with a sprinkling of Agent Orange on the cards.
Gizzit says:
I don’t think it would be prudent to set fire to our children – the Whitehall orthodoxy is that we would have to eat them instead.
You obviously have not read the latest diktat from Westminster Gizzit. The proclamation says:
“Let it be known that from the start of Scottish independence ALL children under the age of 18 shall be required to carry out chimney sweeping duties from the hours of 06:00 to 18:00 7 days a week. Children who carry out the requisite number of chimney sweeps each day, 48, will after 12 month’s be permitted to 1 day off. Children who fail to reach their daily target will be spit roasted and used to feed the locals!”
Note to any new reader here The above quote is of course not true, it is not 06:00 till 18:00 it is 04:00 till 24:00, 60 chimneys per day, 24 months and half a day off.
The whole article is just wonky. The £800m fig is described as investment in renewables and we’re then told how much (550m) came from rUK followed by the 250m fig from “Scottish consumers”. So are we talking about investment, income from consumer bills or government subsidies (direct or levvied from household bills)?
You can’t even get to 3billion by adding up all the figures in the article, including the £280-bill increase on a per capita (rather than household) basis!
I work in the renewable energy, I have worked on wind mill offshore projects all over the place , but I can say that I have never worked on any in Scottish waters!! Most of the work I have worked on is of the coast of England and Wales ie the London array, and rill flats in Wales, they are spending a hell ofa lot of money down south on wind farms, that we are ccontributing to pay for, so why are the bitching about what we are now getting,??? The London array is one of the largest wind farms in the world!!!
They are spending billions down south, ps I cant wait for independence, so we can get craking on with our own offshore wind farms, lets get the kids leaving school some training in renewable energy, and show the world what we can do..
Just to let you know that Westminster is not the only idiots when it comes to nuclear energy.
The Fukushima fuckup on building a nuclear plant within a short distance from a sub sea fault, and thus a Tsunami close certainty, is only matched by the Diablo (yes Devil) Canyon plant on the waterfront of San Luis Obispo, between LA and San Francisco, on not one but four faults. This was discovered after they had started to build the plant.
Anyway, who would miss LA, San Francisco and San Jose?
This is purely a story to terrify OAPs. £280 per year fuel hike would equal abject poverty to many of them. This is assuming that OAPs are stupid and only read headlines – which I am pretty confident they are not.
Anyway, who would miss LA, San Francisco and San Jose?
Me. (Sniff)
Did you do your sniffing there?
There is actually a film script in there.
A major earthquake hits the area and the nuclear plant doesn’t just fall over it falls into a big hole of magma.
and the Morlocks come out and attack us all.
Once again the subtext appears to be that the UK Government is doing something out of the kindness of their heart, rather than for financial benefit.
Sorry
Guardian already run that one …
My head hurts.
According to the Register General Scotland there were 2.37 million households in Scotland in 2011. Multiplied by £280 equals 663.6 million.
Where do all the other figures come from?
Our usual diet of totally obvious lies, even No’s must be shaking their heads in disbelief.
If they say No, WE say YES! simples.
Drunken Hobo says:
yes, therein is a good laugh. The do not do good things for Scotland, we need to be kept in our wee corner and thrown a few scraps now and then. The big problem is though, they even want them back!
Cooking children obviously demands more energy which of course will result in another price hike, probably doubling up from £3b to £8b (Danny’s calculator).
OT but I just suddenly thought, If we can get The SNP to advocate a No Vote, will the Labour machine suddenly flip to a yes just to oppose the SNP for the sake of it?
@BTP
I think the Morlocks threat is in the BT fearbomb plan for the first week of August.
Recent Private Eye also had the scare story that Scotlands goal of 100% renewables would have us skint and in darkness.
Its all just Charlie Brown and the BlahBlahBlah Teachers voice these days.
As for Danny Alexander…theres 1 guy who will have nowhere to go in next few years..and well deserved too.
33 and falling.
link to rsf.org
Ah! 550 million divide by 2.37mil equals 232.
at least that is close. So England (or rUK) will refuse to pay for renewable investment if the naughty Scots vote YES.
One must then assume that they will not want any of our electricity. Hmmm! let’s see how that works out on a winters day.
It is about time someone compiled everything we have AND everything we pay for now. Our massive savings in not having to pay for things WE do not want nor need, must mount up to a big amount of money.
Then there are the shared assets, add a ballpark figure to the totals. We need this done just to show where we really will be.ie much wealthier, we will be able to carry out our own projects and if Westminster does not want involved, we put our own cable across the North sea and sell our power to Europe, as an example.
If in the energy case, Westminster wants our power after all, they will have to pay more. Same for water.
Badly written indeed. I think he left out ‘over the next 10 years ‘ bit.
The rUK subsidy cost predicted as £93/MWhr: Scotland subsidy cost is £44/MWhr. Does appear to offer scope for an up to £49/MWhr profit margin for exported power to rUK.
So with independence Scotland could export and reap profit from electricity. Presently we give it away – I don’t suppose there is a line item in the Great British P&L account evaluating Scotland’s electricity transfer to England, Wales and N Ireland?
Can anyone tell me why Westminster is still pursuing nuclear reactors when the start up costs plus the decommissioning costs are so horrendous?
Also why ………when Germany and Japan are giving up nuclear fuel?
Calgacus MacAndrews
Problem is that the NO team already look like Morlocks.
So they are living amongst us.
Scarey?
I wonder at the people who let their name be used in this way. Is it the Record which cannot count, or is it the Professor?
seanair
They have no alternative and anyway, it is a good source of envelopes.
Did you know that Gordon Brown’s brother was head of PR for EDF the French nuclear power generator?
Gordon spent a few Summers in the Hamptons, Long Island in a house his brother rented.
The answer could be a wee bit more mundane; they may have just chopped out the bit where it was meant to say “over 10 years” so that it would fit neatly in the box.
Granted in the context, those three words are rather important ones.
re my post to seanair
I forgot Private Eye’s “allegedly,” your Honour.
I’d miss San Fran, but I never want to see the car park that is LA ever again.
Gizzit says:
12 July, 2014 at 11:23 am
I don’t think it would be prudent to set fire to our children – the Whitehall orthodoxy is that we would have to eat them instead
Ok, i’ll say it….. Or worse!
Wrote a longish post for this topic which will not send. If anyone is interested I have put it here
link to thosebigwords.forumcommunity.net
Hughes doesn’t like Renewables? £400 would need to be added to bills in the UK. 15/12/13 (Daily Mail)
Mind you ‘Kiddy burgers’ has a certain ring about it.
Hate to tell them but I have been watching the Cooncil upgrading the hooses here with better insulation. I would say there is going to be a fall in the amount of Electricity being used here in a independent Scotland. We dinnae have the same desire for aw those auld hooses that the English cleave tae either.
Tell ye what, we will double the price tae them and use the money tae pit Photovoltaic cells on aw the roofs here, that little bit should help.
There is no barrel they won’t scrape. No cesspit they won’t wallow in. No smear or insult they won’t use. But what always leaves be flabbergasted is the use of the “dependency” argument. I don’t consider myself British – I have always used it as a collective pronoun. But I would shrivel up from sheer embarrassment if my nation was so useless and relied so much on subsidy. What on earth would make you proud of that? The logic simply eludes me.
LA is about 7 suburbs and there is no traditional tidal flow in and out of real city centre.
It is just a semi permanent gridlock
The difference is down to what is known in financial circles as as FCP. (P for profit I’ll leave you to work out what the FC stands for)
“The difference is down to what is known in financial circles as as FCP. (P for profit I’ll leave you to work out what the FC stands for)”
I’m sorry, we don’t do riddles here. Either say, or sod off.
I saw a government minister during the week saying they could just as easily buy electricity abroad, he mentioned France and Belgium, So he thinks it will be cheaper and easier to run undersea cables across one of the busiest shipping channels in the world, than using the grid that already exists, and which we ALL paid for… it’s like being back in the playground. The NO camp all seem to think that the entire rest of the world would treat us as pariahs, just because they want to. And they think that makes them fit to govern? NO F$&*$%G THANKS
Our next-door neighbour here in Leicester works for Centrica and (amusingly since I come from there) spent several years on the Lewis windfarm/HVDC interconnector proposals. He also worked on various other projects mainly north of Inverness.
He’s one of the “too wee, too poor, too stupid” mob but setting that to one side….
The reality of the situation is that a lot of the consented windfarms north of Inverness have been on hold/going slow for a couple of reasons :
1) The tories aren’t as keen on windfarms as nulab were, so there’s concern regarding the stability of any subsidy;
2) There is concern regarding independence but that’s tied in with the cost of upgrading the transmission infrastructure.
In other words there may be a lot of wind/tide up north but its bloody expensive to build the interconnectors (Crown Estate wanting their cut doesn’t help matters). Obviously companies are looking at the payback time on this & I can see why there’s some concern when you introduce independence/irrational unionists/etc.
FWIW I reckon tidal power will make building the interconnectors pretty much a no-brainer. England has to get power from somewhere and tidal power is likely to be both cheap and reliable.
Oh and is anyone surprised that the hacks on the Record can’t count/invent numbers to suit?
BigRik
There is a cross Channel interconnector.
I would hazard a guess it was installed using Barnett non consequentials as a UK asset.
In fact power generators pay in to the National Grid so they can sell the electricity to the consumer.
The charge is based on the distance from London so if your generator is very near London you receive a negative pay-in. That is to say a subsidy per KW Hour.
Scotland with about 13% of generation capacity pays over half the cost of the National Grid.
Another hidden London subsidy
For those interested 1pm Sat 12 July, “Stop Attacking Gaza! Gla.
link to new.livestream.com
It doesn’t actually matter if the numbers are accurate or are representative of reality pre or post independence.
The objective by the media is to simply throw any manner & any number of apparently doom laden disasters at their readers.
They know most people will never check the stories for accuracy & hope that in this instance that the majority will believe the message that their home energy bills will skyrocket after independence.
The numbers are almost irrelevant just so long as they look so big that they appear to true & very scary.
Anyone who still buys these papers or visits their websites really aught to think about the consequences of funding propaganda on behalf of the British Establishment. If you are fine with that, go ahead & keep buying them.
Just be fully aware that you are indirectly supporting the Better Together/No Thanks/Vote No Borders/Westminster/Unionist cabal.
Thanks BtP, sorry, i just assumed they would commision a new one starting in London at the cost to us of about 60 billion or so, inevitably going way over budget. My pessimism and cynicism knows no bounds
I started googling and reading and calculating, trying to make some sense of all this in my head.
Making sense, adding up – that’s not what it’s about.
It’s about generating another negative scary headline. It doesn’t need to add up, nor make sense. Most importantly, it doesn’t even need to be close to the truth. It’s just the latest installment of lies and deceit!
The more all this goes on, the more it’s not about countering each and every little lie, it’s about getting the message across to as many DKs/soft-NOs as possible that they lie, trust none of it!
The problem with the NO camp seems to be, they are living in the past, forgetting that most of us have almost limitless facts and figures in our pockets.Five minutes on Google is all you need, yet it still seems to be beyond our esteemed journo’s. I tell no’s and dont knows to check for themselves, just avoid .gov sites.
BigRik says:
The key is that post Independence the transmission costs are going to have to be borne by the consumers and principally London.
So, stand by for an onslaught from the Daily Heil about usurious Scots.
ah the other big whopper of a lie renewable energy is expensive and will cost Scotland billions and will leave us all in the dark in an independent Scotland ,well it is kind of true but only if you replace Scotland with England.
BtP is spot on we subsidize England`s greed for energy consumption,that is why they are pushing through insane measures like fracking and are going to build more nuclear power stations but even these measures will not stop the grid hitting shortages of energy supply in 5 years time at the rate of consumption just now.
Scotland will be fine in fact without having to subsidize England our energy bills will reduce and if they dont then we must take the whole sector back into public hands and chuck out the greedy monopoly that has been allowed to form under westminster mismanagement.
oh i should state why i used England and not the rUK the reason is because Wales and NI are also subsidizing England.
£3B ÷ £280 is 10.7 million Scottish households.
No lie is big enough for the MSM in Scotland. Out and out propaganda, and absolutely no shame in the lies told to prevent Scottish self determination either.
Since Scotland’s (and by inference the UK’s) oil and gas is apparently fast running out according to UK government sources, what will the UK do for electricity generation and household & industrial gas supplies in 10 years’ time?
Nice to see the Scottish Government has been looking at alternative means of power generation using Scotland’s natural resources of wind and waves and our hydroelectric facilities…
Maybe instead of ‘green energy’ we could call it ’emergency when the oil runs out wtf are you going to do energy’?
Stable Electricity generation is just another negotiating card we have to play post indy. To keep output at 50 kHz when demand increases, you need to be able to draw on a source of generation which can be brought on line quickly. i.e. Hydro. And where’s all the Hydro ?
Im surprised Ms Baillie isn’t in this somewhere. In the first bidding for the number of jobs depending on Trident at Faslane one of her more enthusiastic supporters was going for her to adopt 16% of all jobs in West Scotland. That is about 660,000 people, say 50% working age and 16% or 53,000. Its such a shame that the MoD say 520 and Ms Baillie only claims 11,000 now.
Still when shipbuilding jobs have gone from 33,000 to 6,000 and are still heading down, even if we get the new destroyers, under the Union, its supporters need something with big scary numbers in it to divert attention from the problem of us not being Better Together.
@Ken500
Excellent points well made.
Aside from anything else Westminster is just jealous we have both excellent renewable energy resources in amounts England can only dream about and a government that is more than happy to drive the utility of them.
This is why we have more renewable energy than England, a dividend of the powers in Devolution. As you say though there are things we can do post Independence to both reduce bills for Scots and increase further our renewable output.
The investment in the ability to store energy in hydro lakes and so soak up renewables when for eg the wind blows on warm sunny days is good. We not only have more hydro power systems to use we have both a government keen to facilitate such investment and companies keen to invest in them, contrary to the scaremongering of BT and Westminster.
Remember the man who wrote this article had a serious head injury when he fell in Lewis
Bugger (the Panda): at 1.07 pm
Not often that I read the Hootsmon Business section because I can never get past the comedy section. But I did recently and picked this up. What is your take on it?
Undersea cable could bring cheaper energy
Bugger The Panda
Why do you think that Gordon the tax cheat Brown (Lord Tebitts accusation not mine) signed the contract with EDF to build the new Hinkley Point nuclear station ?
Can’t we burn Daily Records instead of our children?
@Dennis the menace says: 12 July, 2014 at 11:24 am
“They must think people in Scotland zip up the back and swallow anything thrown at them”.
Well, Dennis, that’s nearly right. Remember it is the Daily Record we are discussing here. Thus it is not, “The People of Scotland”, the Daily Record aims its idiotic Better Together propaganda lies at.
It’s obviously aimed at that rapidly declining, totally ignorant, band of total numpties who are still stupid enough to actually buy a copy of the Daily Record.
In other words the Better Togeter official campaign knows their only hope of avoiding an independent Scotland is to hang onto enough already ignorant dunderheids to avoid the drop.
It’s amazing just how many new converts to the YES side I’ve come across in just the last month alone. Had a person come up to me this very morning and ask, “Are you the SNP”? After informing him I was not the SNP but only a single member of the Party he continued, “Aye! That’s whit Ah meant – Wha’s goan tae pey ma pension efter Independence?
He didn’t really believe my answer but said he would ask his own brother who lived in Australia. I wonder why he didn’t do that before asking a stranger? Perhaps he was trying to catch me out. I’ll ask him if I see him again.
Isn’t there the danger we do not aggressively exploit renewable energies enough in the next 10-20 years before all the wind and tides run out?
I’m just trying to “think” from the same place this Daily Record story was coming from.
“The difference is down to what is known in financial circles as FCP. (P for profit I’ll leave you to work out what the FC stands for)”
“I’m sorry, we don’t do riddles here. Either say, or sod off.”
You missed out the point about investment (already paid for by the taxpayer) being considerably less than the increased bills (paid for by the consumer, who is probably also the taxpayer who already paid for the investment). This article implies that, after independence, the FCs (Fat Cats or Fine Chaps or Foreign Companies – take your pick or add your own) who treat UK consumers SO benevolently won’t be half as kind to the residents of Scotland.
@Bugger
The Morlocks are out marching as we speak…
Here are some actual figures for one year and cites for where the figures came from: –
Gas, oil and coal prices got subsidised by £3.63bn in 2010, (Data from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development).
Offshore and onshore wind got just £0.7bn in the year from April 2010. All renewables, (including wind), in the UK got just £1.4bn over the same period. (Data from the Department of Energy and Climate Change (Decc).
Just before announcing the new renewables subsidies the government cut subsidy for on shore turbines by 10%.
Nuclear power gets subsidised, some well hidden, more than all others put together.
The current charging regime means that, for example, an energy provider in Peterhead, Aberdeenshire would have to pay £20 per kw for a grid connection while London-based energy provider would be subsidised by £3 per kw. It is estimated that Scottish based companies currently pay £100 million more than they should as a result.
Remember another important fact – Renewable energy, “fuel”, is not only free but it fetches itself to the site. It has no waste matter to dispose of either. Nor does it have to be bought again every time the imported fossil fuel runs done.
@Robert Peffers
It’s obviously aimed at that rapidly declining, totally ignorant, band of total numpties who are still stupid enough to actually buy a copy of the Daily Record.
In other words the Better Togeter official campaign knows their only hope of avoiding an independent Scotland is to hang onto enough already ignorant dunderheids to avoid the drop.
Robert, I realise you are a passionate SNP supporter, but the SNP alone are not going to win this referendum for Scotland.
Lay off with the “numpties” and “ignorant dunderheids”. This is NOT the way to win potential voters over to the Yes side.
Aye stoap sayin’ that aboot the ignorant numpties. Ignorance is bliss.
Please correct me if I am wrong, arithmetic isn’t a strong point but they are saying that, the extra £3billion equates to £280 per household which means there are just about 11 Million houses in Scotland?
Sorry, my brain is hurting again!
First, he’s NOT an ‘Energy Expert’ he’s an economist, which in this instance means he has no special knowledge to offer. The money spent was CAPITAL spending, not a maintenance cost. Remember renewables, once put in place, produce ‘free’ energy, ie no further spending on fuels like coal, gas etc. So, if you take a capital spend, divide it by the number of household and recoup it over one year it WOULD cost this much. Fortunately for us, this isn’t how the renewables sector works, if he really WAS an energy expert he’d know this.
Just checked the link to this guys other work posted by the Rev and the headline should read that we would save £120 a year compared to remaining in the UK.
He says that to meet the targets the price rise in the UK would be by £400 for every energy bill; so they obviously just didn’t let him finish his sentence.
link to research.ed.ac.uk
Conan
There are many chapters and sub species out and under there.
Auld Sandy
I am quivverin in ma bits.
Not as BENEVOLENT to Scotland as they are to the UK?
Oh dear.
Electricity is cheaper just about everywhere on the Continent as it is in the UK.
Read what I said about electricity being subsidised in London.
Benevolent?
Most people wont do the maths and believe that rubbish and even if someone pointed out their deliberate error they would print a tiny retraction hidden away somewhere in the paper somewhere.
the solution is simple , stop buying the newspapers who are biased towards us
get your news via twitter which can be as situations happen , not the next day
if at all
Roll_On_2014
I somehow doubt that saving will ever be passed on, not by a for profit entity.
Donald.
“I do not approve of anything that tampers with natural ignorance. Ignorance is like a delicate exotic fruit; touch it and the bloom is gone. The whole theory of modern education is radically unsound. Fortunately, in England, at any rate, education produces no effect whatsoever. If it did, it would prove a serious danger to the upper classes, and probably lead to acts of violence in Grosvenor Square.”
Lady Bracknell – The importance of being Ernest
Irony is loast oan the thick.
Donald Anderson.
Danny Alexander was on Moneybox on Radio 4 earlier on – it was starting just as I was going out so I didn’t hear it – it was all going to be to do with the financial disentangling that would follow a yes vote.
Bugger (the Panda) says:
“Auld Sandy
I am quivverin in ma bits.
Not as BENEVOLENT to Scotland as they are to the UK?
Oh dear.”
I apologise unreservedly for my poor effort at irony.
My serious hope is that the Government of an independent Scotland wouldn’t be in cahoots with these people.
Aye. They’re too good tae us.
Les Wilson says: 12 July, 2014 at 12:17 pm
”It is about time someone compiled everything we have AND everything we pay for now.”
Where the hell have you been?
Way back in around 2005 a Scottish Forensic Accountant named Niall Aslen Produced a Report he titled, “The Big Lie”. For this he suffered great threats including a visit from MI5 that saw several operatives turn his office upside down convinced that he had inside information to secret government papers.
In fact the figures he used were all from already public domain UK Government papers. Since then Niall’s paper has been redone as, “The Great Obfuscation”. Here is a link to that paper : –
link to oilofscotland.org
Have a read, a good bit of research, and expect to have a real eye opener.
velofello says: 12 July, 2014 at 12:24 pm
“So with independence Scotland could export and reap profit from electricity. Presently we give it away – I don’t suppose there is a line item in the Great British P&L account evaluating Scotland’s electricity transfer to England, Wales and N Ireland?”
No, velofello, but there is this : –
“Gas, oil and coal prices got subsidised by £3.63bn in 2010, (Data from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development).
Offshore and onshore wind got just £0.7bn in the year from April 2010. All renewables, (including wind), in the UK got just £1.4bn over the same period. (Data from the Department of Energy and Climate Change (Decc).
Just before announcing the new renewables subsidies the government cut subsidy for on shore turbines by 10%.
Nuclear power gets subsidised, some well hidden, more than all others put together.
The current charging regime means that, for example, an energy provider in Peterhead, Aberdeenshire would have to pay £20 per kw for a grid connection while London-based energy provider would be subsidised by £3 per kw. It is estimated that Scottish based companies currently pay £100 million more than they should as a result.”.
Bugger (the Panda) says: 12 July, 2014 at 12:26 pm
“Problem is that the NO team already look like Morlocks. So they are living amongst us. Scarey?”
Jings! Thats’s a right load o old Morlocks!
It’s all Tam Cowan’s fault:
“He is a strong, though fortunately not compelling, reason for believing that Scotland does not deserve independence; that it is not ready to cope with the responsibilities of statehood, a grown-up world beyond football and blue jokes. Marginalised in the sports pages of the Daily Record, preaching to the converted, he does a limited amount of damage.”
link to scottishreview.net
There you have it.
Soda says: 12 July, 2014 at 12:37 pm
“I don’t think it would be prudent to set fire to our children – the Whitehall orthodoxy is that we would have to eat them instead”
Dear Sir, As one whoes children were burned by the state, I take great exception to the whole concept of burning my Children. I insist it is far far better to eat them and cure any surplus as reserves against lean times,
Aefauldlie,
Yours aye,
Sawney Bean.
Damn, children get a hard time, people wanting to burn them, eat them. Pedophiles and pederasts.
Sorry Auld Sandy
Maybe I need an irony transplant!
????????
Sandy the ?????? were supposed to be like wee smiley faces
like that
Has everyone been on a Saturday afternoon sesh apart frae me?
BigRik says: 12 July, 2014 at 12:58 pm
“I saw a government minister during the week saying they could just as easily buy electricity abroad, he mentioned France and Belgium”.
Here’s a wee bit of real history for you.
The end of WWII the greatest expansion of the UK Electricity Grid with the beginning of the new Supergrid. This was mainly due to the, “Big Freeze of 1945/46 and the Worlds first cross-border grid line fed electricity from the Edinburgh area into Englands existing grid.
Scotland that day began to export electricity into England – and it has done so every single day since.
Now consider this – “The current Grid Charging regime means that, for example, an energy provider in Peterhead, Aberdeenshire must pay £20 per kw for a grid connection while London-based energy provider would be subsidised by £3 per kw. It is estimated that Scottish based companies currently pay £100 million more than they should as a result.
goldenayr
The sesh ma faither wore?
BtP
Too late,I’ve joined ye…ya bass.
Gutrot has a lot to answer too.(?)
@ Bugger,
or as was noted when 2 orangemen were caught “skinning up” in a close.
The hash my father scored.
Bugger (the Panda) says: 12 July, 2014 at 7:19 pm
“The sesh ma faither wore?”
Mair lik, “The Sesh Mia Farrow wore”.
Do the Daily record have any members of staff with an Arithmetic Ordinary or Standard Grade?
It clearly appears that they don’t.
Here is a bit of Arithmetic for them…
Media Lies + Intelligent Scots = End of Daily Record
Doug, sorry, Jackie baillie reckons it will be £875 per household:
link to dailyrecord.co.uk
Doug, sorry, Jackie Bailie says we face a rise of £875 per household:
link to dailyrecord.co.uk
Sorry for the double post.
We could render jackboot baillie and supply enough oil to keep us warm until the heat death of the Universe.
Interesting just how many unionists also hate renewable energy. Which is odd as they can’t stop going on about how oil is about to run out. You would think that they would be all for sustainable development.
On the subject of Hydro. Why are all of the public water supply reservoirs not also producing Hydro-electricity? Apart from the Loch Turret scheme all of that potential is just wasted.
Jim Peffers, Goldenayr and Gerry
Amateur Night tonight?
Pubs closed early?
Goldenayr—you have the skeets?
There is a lot of it around, viral not bacterial.
BtP
My natural condition on comment sites that are world wide.
Also why have shares in Huggies and Pampers.
@Robert , is Niall Aslan still alive? His work ‘The Great Obfuscation’ should be sent out to every household in Scotland before September.
Even the densest naysayer would grasp the extent of Westminster deceitful theft of our wealth by reading this.
O/T
Paolo sounding good at T in park on just now. Obviously a few more yessers visible tonight that the Beeb can’t ignore. Also, spotted great Yes Highland sticker on a car in Aviemore today. Haven’t seen that before.
It’s endemic and they can’t help themselves. Even Private Eye is getting in on the act. Their edition of a fortnight ago had a piece by ‘Old McSparky’ panning ‘Alex Salmond’s Renewables. A footnote at the bottom of the Old Sparky column in the current edition admits that where they had £4billion annual subsidy they actually should have said £0.4 billion annual subsidy. Of course, they said nothing about this error completely knocking their thesis to hell!
Peffers: It’s obviously aimed at that rapidly declining, totally ignorant, band of total numpties who are still stupid enough to actually buy a copy of the Daily Record.
Well now, how to handle that one?
We have to be careful about lumping everybody into one toilet bowl judged by their reading matter. Not all Daily Record glancers, (no one ‘reads’ that rag, you glance at it) are anti-self determination.
The chief chippy and his young son on one of my projects are voting Yes. The comic capers Record is their lunchtime relaxation, thereafter tossed in the bin. Now and then their chores are peppered with ridicule over yesterday’s idiotic utterances from ‘stupid’ Unionists.
Robert Peffers, at 7.47pm last night quoted:
“The Sesh Mia Farrow wore”.
Johnny Beattie – Ayr Gaiety Whirl 1969, if my memory serves me correctly.
The Moustache my father swore.
Oh! and I forgot –
“Daily Record readers”, like “Sun readers” is an oxymoron.
Scotland which is surplus in fuel and energy exports 25% but as part of the UK pays 10% more than the rest of the UK because it is colder. Not equal or fair.
The UK buys in Norwegian gas. Is that subsidising the Norwegian economy? Germany buys Russian Gas. Is that subsidising the Russian economy?
YES flags are coming out.
Does anyone know who is behind “proudtobescots”. They have large banner on A9 going south near Aviemore beside a big estate house saying proud to bevscots, delighted to be united. Hopefully some of you know some residents up there where we can get some yes flags displayed