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Wings Over Scotland

The final surrender

Posted on December 30, 2016 by

From a remarkable front-page lead in today’s Herald.


Never mind running local services better. All that Scottish Labour now care about is existing in order to go into coalitions with the Tories, to prevent a left-of-centre social-democratic party with which they agree on almost everything except the constitution from wielding power in an area that has no impact whatsoever on the constitution.

We remain of the firm conviction that at some point in 2017 Labour will poll in single figures in Scotland. It might be a lot sooner than we think.

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    1. 30 12 16 09:56

      The final surrender | speymouth

    232 to “The final surrender”

    1. John Dickson says:

      Hopefully there will be no Labour in Scotland by the end of May 2017. They disgust me more than the Tories disgust me and that is a lot of disgust.

    2. One of the Hundred says:

      Did the Tories ever poll in single figures?

    3. jimnarlene says:

      Its about time someone buried, the rotten corpse that is, SLab.

    4. Luigi says:


      Labour are still bleeding profusely from jumping into bed with the Tories in 2014, and now they are planning to jump right back in with them for the council elections? Another bout of serious self-harm beckons. Did they learn nothing?

      I suppose they just can’t help themselves. The Labour and Unionist Party – British nationalist through and through.

    5. Kevin Evans says:

      Whilst labour in Scotland was polling high and in second place the Tories used them for there means. Now labour are 3rd and I’d guess maybe even 4th behind lib dems or greens now the Tories have no use for them. What makes labour think the Tories even want them anymore. Labour in Scotland has now become a political party begging for the scraps there Tory masters will throw them. What a disgrace of a political party supposedly standing up for the working man. They can’t even stand up for themselves anymore.

    6. George Moore says:

      If they won’t bury labour, at least stop parading the corpse!

    7. defo says:

      With the ‘Locals’ usually more candidate centred rather than party, this really shows the happy state we find ‘Scottish’ Labour in.
      Go back a decade and propose this ( single figures) scenario, and you would be laughed at.
      Clearing the carpet baggers out of the councils is so long overdue, only the brown paper envelope manufacturers will be sorry.

    8. Auld Rock says:

      Coalition with the Tories – have SLAB learned nothing from 2014/15???? Or are they still hoping for a place in the Westminster Retirement Home? LOL.

      Auld Rock

    9. MajorBloodnok says:

      Unfortunately #indyref revealed Labour to be just another facet of the British Establishment, an entity completely lacking in principle and prepared to do whatever is expedient to retain power.

    10. They, the Labour Party in Scotland are almost irrelevant, almost. But don’t worry, Ms MacKinnon, and her acolytes, will still be treating them as the greatest thing since sliced bread.

    11. winifred mccartney says:

      With labour it has nothing to do with serving communities or wanting the best for Scotland – it is all about their lust for power – they will side with the devil every time rather than recognise the good the snp are doing.

      They keep listening and are still failing to hear anything but their own voices – I for one and many more like me will never forget their betrayal of scotland – flipping AD and maniac GB with his VOW and then comes the Smith Commission and labour votes everything down and gives Scotland nothing – they thought it was all over so they could revert back but they were just as wrong in this as everything else – so for all our parents generation who supported labour and were just used by labour and lied to by labour and forgotten by labour and stolen from by labour (McCrone) mp’s expenses, flipping homes etc etc I say to labour you deserve to be finished. Never again.

    12. R-type Grunt says:

      So it’s official then, Socialism be damned.

    13. Suzanne says:

      I can only imagine McTernan is advising them upon pain of death if they refuse, because surely no-one else would suggest SLab should willingly repeat a strategy that lost them so many seats in the GE.

    14. Dave says:

      I’m akways wary about headlines and stories like this. I always think back to the Yes/No poll in the Referendum that put Yes ahead.

      Neespapers use stuff like this as a rallying cry yo focus minds and maje sure certain elements of the electorate go out and vote

    15. Ian McCubbin says:

      Like you and others I see this as the end game of Labour in Scotland. Totally abandoned any of their beliefs as left of centre to further siding with Tories. Hope 2017 finishes them in Scotland.

    16. Dr Jim says:

      Watch out for the new crop of “Independent” candidates

    17. John H. says:

      In the event of another referendum, surely who runs the councils is very important. I have my suspicions about the part played by councils in the last one.

    18. Wulls says:

      As a Wings regular I honestly thought I was past being surprised at the suicidal antics of Slab.
      This one though has me utterly stumped.
      To repeat, or even take the risk of repeating, mistakes of the past can only signal one of two things.
      1/ they honestly believe jumping into bed with the tories was a good idea.
      2/ they honestly believe people have very very short memories.
      If they believe either of these to be the case Stus prophecy of single figure polling will be sooner than they think.
      There is also another possibility.
      Murphy, Dug, Grey, Sarwsr, et all may be Tory plants inserted into Slab to destroy them as a political force.
      Actually that makes more sense than anything else

    19. Wulls says:

      I forgot Jackie Bailie.
      Fuck…… I might be on to something here.

    20. Giving Goose says:

      I don’t actually know any Labour supporters. I used to and those people would proudly declare their allegiance for Labour. No more.

      Politics in Scotland is all about the constitution now. You’re either Pro-Scotland or a Unionist.

      Unionism is a single issue. You cannot have shades of Unionism, hence the Tories being the opposituon in Holyrood.

      What we now have in Scotland is in actual fact a longer referendum, the result measured in months rather than a single event.

      There are actually only two political parties taking part in this longer referendum; The Pro-Scotland party and the anti-Scotland party (fronted by Ruth Davidson).

      The message to the electorate should be aligned to the facts on the ground.

      You are either Pro -Scotland or Anti-Scotland (Ruth Davidson/Tory/London/Nasty).

    21. Helpmaboab says:

      By all means let Labour form coalitions with the Tories in 2017. They may secure offices for some of their councillors for five more years.

      But they will also finally expose themselves as the full-blooded branch of the conservative British establishment that they pretend not to be.

      Why would anyone continue to vote for such a party when the Tories do the same job more openly and more effectively?

    22. Brian Powell says:

      Well they can do a LibDem with it’s Tory Coalitionand later clim it was holding the Tories in check, oh wait, Slab claim it is holding the SNP to account, so that won’t work.

      Ah, it can claim it has been holding the Tories and SNP to account, oh wait, can’t do that while in coalition with the Tories, or maybe it can, with the backing of all the media. As someone pointed out, Scotland must be unique where the Party third in a Parliament gets the greatest uncritical press coverage.

      Of course they have been in coalition in Holyrood over the past years and in Westminster when they voted down every SNP amendment that would have given Scotland more effective powers.

    23. Sinky says:

      Even if the SNP get 45% of the vote, I fear that the voting system will allow the Red and Blue Tories to form coalitions to keep the SNP out of power in most councils.

    24. carjamtic says:

      Red Tory Question : What Price This Time ?

      (The best beaches reserved for the privileged ?,another,redefinition of Scotland’s marine boundaries ?,…..)

      Blue Tory Answer : Everything.

    25. Robert Peffers says:

      @jimnarlene says: 30 December, 2016 at 8:55 am:

      “Its about time someone buried, the rotten corpse that is, SLab”

      Well actually it is far more important that WE bury the hale bourach that is Westminster unionism.

      Owersettin intil the Inglis frae the Lallans leid:-

      hale bourach = entire confused heap

    26. iain says:

      I remember posting that for slab that “oblivion awaits”.
      How my prediction has come true.Has nobody in slab heard that when in a hole stop digging.
      The way they are going they are going to come out in Australia.
      I predict that they will soon be running neck and neck with the monster raving Loony party.
      I was right about brexit and Trumph, so I have a bit of a record of being correct.

    27. Macca73 says:

      A party with no purpose that’s SLAB, The interesting thing for me is those quotes that Dugdale comes up with from every union that still backs SLAB at the moment. How much longer will that last for when they watch the party say one thing and then go off and hold the a tory hand at the local council level???

      I think things are about to become very interesting.

    28. Capella says:

      SLab already have gone into coalition with the Tories in many Councils to prevent the SNP, the largest group, from taking control. Aberdeen City Council was one example. The coalitions may not last but it kept their hold on Local Authorities intact.

      Perhaps after May 2017 UKLabour will pull the plug and let SLAb die a natural death.

    29. galamcennalath says:

      The way to win councils is to get voters out.

      Turnout for council elections is far lower than other elections. These are the most important local elections, possibly ever. We need to work at persuading SNP supporters to get out and vote. With virtually no grassroots, the Unionists are going to find doing the same difficult.

      The Unionists are clearly going to opt for paid advertising and manipulating the electoral system. That’s all they have.

      As others have said, SLab have been taken for a ride by the Tories and don’t seem to see through what is happening.

    30. Tamson says:

      The SNP need to absolutely scream about the risk of Lab/Con coalitions from the rooftops throughout the local election campaign. Whenever possible they must challenge Labour on it.

    31. R-type Grunt says:

      Perhaps Labour are unaware of this but there are a great many SNP voters who would happily vote for a Labour party in Scotland once independence is won. Not the Labour party as it stands, obviously, but a genuine left-of-centre party that Labour have always claimed themselves to be. Unfortunately, it seems Scotland is forever doomed by British Nationalist parties.

    32. Marie Clark says:

      What an absolute disgrace of a party.

      We really shouldn’t be surprised though. Labour have always been like this, they have run rotten corrupt burghs for many a long year. They problem SLAB now have, is that we, the electorate are fully aware of it. Eyes wide open. They run many a council at the moment with unionist coalitions to ensure that the SNP are kept out. The fact that it’s now coming back to bite them in the nether regions is not surprising. Nor is the fact that the are quite willing to get back into bed with the tories. Aye listening, learn nothing.

      I reckon some will survive because of the voting system. If they do slip into single figures, tough.

      Hell slap it into them, it’s very well deserved.

    33. Vronsky says:

      What’s left of Labour’s power in Scotland is its infestation of Pacific Quay, and that is immune to voter preference as we know

    34. Macart says:

      The indyref achieved many things back in 2014, but none with so much impact as the revelation of the appalling nature of UK politics. The lengths to which its main proponents were willing to go to protect their hegemony.

      The myth of Labour in Scotland was always built on a lie. Their supposed ‘autonomy’, their stance as a party of the people, all of it bullshit of the highest order. The acts of individual members and representatives aside, the PLP were as much part of the UKs establishment as the Conservatives themselves. Their cosy closed shop power sharing was always the bottom line of politics as it is practised in the UK.

      Whatever threatened the system of politics in the UK would instantly see the ‘big two’ join forces to crush opposition to their dominance. The democratic deficit between the nations of the UK was to be encouraged and protected at all costs, as was Westminster’s then unchallenged sovereignty as the supreme arbiter of legislation for all. Unfettered access to tax base, resources was essential. The collusion between Labour and Conservative governments goes back a long, long way (see under McCrone and oil, Healey revelations etc).

      The worst lie and the birth of real, lasting hatred in Scotland’s politics was the myth of the Tartan Tory perpetrated by Labour against the SNP and their use of the great lie to cover their own selfish arses. The truth and responsibility behind Labour’s betrayal of the Callaghan government. The first devolution process in 79 and their betrayal of Scotland’s electorate, all had to be protected and diverted.

      A great deal of effort has gone into promoting and protecting this great lie over the years and it couldn’t have been done without the willing help of ALL members of the political status quo working together. Just as they always have.

      Now that folk are switching back on to their politics and their political engagement is encouraging them to question the state of politics, the constitution, the deficit in the UK. Is it any wonder that Labour in Scotland turn to their long time establishment allies for aid? Between the two of them, they’ve dictated the nature of democracy in these islands for so long.

      ‘Real politics’ was only ever intended to be a cosy binary choice for the Uk’s electorate. Democracy is what they said it was.

      Well, not anymore its not.

    35. Calum McKay says:

      labour’s final collapse in Scotland will come about when the bbc desert them and give their allegiance to the tories.

      Perhaps that task will be an early priority of Donalda McKinnon?

    36. Capella says:

      If SLab genuinely believe in the Union, why do they even have a Scottish Branch (which isn’t really a Branch)? Ditto Tories. SLab is completely illogical. A deception.

      Listening to Prof Richard Wolff’s lectures on Socialism is quite startling at times. He cites UKLabour policy to introduce workplace co-ops, financed by government. None of this UK Labour policy filters through the media.

      But in a 2020 election it might. By then the deadwood that is SLab will be gone. If Corbyn survives Blairite attempts to get rid of him and a genuinely socialist programme is proposed, voters might well return to Labour. That is a very big IF.

    37. heedtracker says:

      Last summers get Corbyn campaign’s probably the THE final nail in the coffin too. Lets hold a leadership campaign, right in the middle of the EU referendum campaign, must rank as one of red tories historic WTF’s. Even then, were Labour the Leavers or Remainers, in just a little bit, out all the way, in just the tip?

      You want to see the mess Wullie’s crew have made of Aberdeen though. Holy fcuk what a bunch of idiots.

    38. call me dave says:

      The Herald story says that Labour on 15% from an October poll but adds that in local elections, unionism is the glue that holds the anti SNP parties together and the vote will ‘unify’ to give them a chance at controlling councils.

      It’s the union jack comfort blanket to warm their sorry extremities, that’s all they have left.

      Winter is coming… I heard somewhere.

      Labour not dead just hibernating like a weed!

    39. Scott Cameron says:

      Who’s the “Single Issue Party” now?

    40. Wee Alex says:

      What Labour want from local elections is power and the trappings that go with it. At the moment they are 2nd place in Scotland and as others say are about to drop to 3rd or 4th.

      Will they be willing to act as junior partners in coalitions across the country? A difficult call to make.

      can you imagine. Labour/Tory administration in North Lanarkshire with. Tory leader and a Tory Provost, it doesn’t bear thinking about.

      Is it likely, then I’m afraid the answer is yes. Labour hate the SNP more than they do the Tories.

    41. ScottishPsyche says:

      This was always on the cards. Getting the vote out has never been more important.

      We also need to look out for ex Slabbers standing as ‘Independent’ and forming alliances with Tories which absolves Slab of the taint that goes with it. They will be Slab in all but name though.

      It is not going to be the clean out that many think. Slab are like cornered animals now and will do anything to keep power.

    42. heedtracker says:

      What kind of centre left, progressive, democratic party would want to get into bed with my Slovenian girlfriend anyway. Their one aim is to destroy Scottish democracy, and the BBC’s going to tell us we like it.

      Adam Tomkins MSP Retweeted
      HeraldScotland ?@heraldscotland 4h4 hours ago
      Labour’s polls show it lagging far behind Tories as party abandons its Glasgow stronghold

    43. John Walsh says:

      Aberdeen City Council is a prime example of what we are likely to see after 2017.Coalitions of Slab, Tory, LibDem and also fake independent ( ex Slab) councillors . To keep SNP out of controlling any council. Most Slab run councils are scared of being exposed for inept negligence or worse fraud.
      The biggest danger is ignorance of STV. Do the voters NEED to choose a second candidate? Or will voting a single party on the list work. The Greens benefited from the STV system at HR elections and look how that’s turning out. If you thought Slab used dirty tricks and lies in the indyref then watch out you ain’t seen nothing yet. We are going to need Wings x 10.

    44. starlaw says:

      John Walsh .. 10-44
      We must examine STV very closely, do we need to cast a second vote. I for one begrudge giving a vote to anyone openly hostile to Scotland’s future as an independent State.
      How do I find out the rules covering this pound of mince.

    45. Ken500 says:

      Get the rest out of the way. A straight fight with the Tories.

    46. One_Scot says:

      Proof if it were ever needed that Labour are merely Tories wearing a red tie.

    47. Dan Huil says:

      More proof that Labour hates Scotland.

    48. HandandShrimp says:

      Labour proving that they are the lesser cheek of the Unionist arse and that nothing else matters any more.

      I do wonder who is drafting their strategy…Murdo Fraser?

    49. Neil Cook says:

      SLAB is dead but still can’t believe that people who have been shafted by the Tories will vote for them just to spite the SNP.

      Hopefully the STV won’t be as successful for the Unionist vote and we can get rid of these useless Labour run councils for good.
      I honestly hope that the SNP can change the voting system some time in the future to thwart this system or create another pro independence party where the 2 nd vote can become effective as MPS losing lists seats with 7x the vote of the closest party and still losing. Maybe some candidates can stand as independents next time to beat the useless voting system?

    50. Well said, macart @ 10.08 am.
      The Yes Movement must approach the LA elections with all the verve enthusiasm and high profile commitment as was put into Indyref 1.
      I have no doubt at all that MacDougall and Co will launch a Council Level Project Fear/Better Together campaign, blaming the SNP for the Tory cuts, and peddling the same lies which we have witnessed in the past few days of SNP BADness churned out by the Dead Tree Scrollers and repeated over the air by the Broadcast Propaganda wing of the London Establishment in Scotland.
      The horrendous safety record on the New Forth Bridge, Police leaving in their thousands, kids flunking Maths doubled, and so on.
      I have indulged myself during 2016, adopting a tub thumping style when contributing to WoS, WGD, and other sites. It was my ‘getting it off my chest’ period, if you like.
      2017 is the year of facts. We need detailed scrutiny of our Unionist politicians blatant lies, analysis of the junk churned out by their willing helpers in the media, and a relentless forensic examination of the diurnal Scotland Rubbish hate-news with which they flood the newsstands and airwaves.
      New Labour in Scotland, because that is what Kezia, Gray, Lamont, Baillie, and Mara, represent, there is not not a Corbynista among them, will readily go into bed with Ruth and her sectarian bigoted lieutenants, WATP Tomkins and The Queen’s Eleven Fraser. They are all Tories.
      Bedroom Tax, Trident, tuition fees, prescription charges, cuts in Welfare Payments, bomb Syria.
      Ruth and Kezia are cosying up like two spoons in a drawer on all of these arch right, rob the poor, reward the rich, Police the world, far right war like policies.
      Labour Councils are still run on New Labour Tony Blair neo conservative ideals. Arms Length Contracts, PFI buildings, land deals to friends of the Party, and so on.
      The next few months, in the lead up to Brexit, and the May elections, are going to be very volatile months, and should expose Labour for what it is, and indeed always was. A London centric Unionist Tory Lite sham.
      I genuinely wonder why any former Labour supporter in Scotland has anything to do with Dugdale and McAveety.
      Rant over.

    51. galamcennalath says:

      The true nature of modern Labour was exposed at IndyRef1 and the Smith fiasco.

      For Union, Party and Personal Gain should be their motto. Voters? Scotland? Nah, they don’t even come into the Labour equation.

      Labour, like the LibDems, must be reduced to irrelevance. The Tories are the genuine representatives of the BritNat right, while the others are just stooges being taken for a ride by them.

    52. Clydebuilt says:

      The Herald has specialised in spreading fear amongst Unionists attempting to Rouse them into action……

    53. chris kilby says:


    54. Fairliered says:

      Desperate Dug.

    55. galamcennalath says:

      I notice from some comments, there still isn’t clarity about the STV voting system. And confusion between STV and the Holyrood list vote.

      And, these are made in comments by folks who are politically aware.

      It nothing else, we need the same voting system for every election.

      We need to iron out confusion and make sure everyone understands how the chosen system works!

      I think iScotland needs to have a commission on the subject and start by looking at how the rest of the western world votes. Adopt the system with the best proven record and get away from the ‘UK disease’ of always looking inward and reinventing the wheel.

    56. heedtracker says:

      Dr No! must be wondering what to do now. A rallying speech to, well himself really. Massive media pressure on all of us to stop voting SNP, from BBC Scotland alone, must surely save them, he doesnt say.

    57. Bob Mack says:

      It helps sort out the wheat from the chaff so to speak. Even if we did not know it before, it is clear there is only “them” and “us” in operation now.

      I hope Slab sink without trace. They are not ,nor ever have been a party with Scotlands interests at heart. That is now fully evident.

    58. liz says:

      @Dave, I agree about focussing minds.

      Remember the headlines before the Holyrood elections?

      SNP were going to ‘walk it’
      The MSM are no friends of the SNP.

      Hopefully complacency wont set in with the voters.

    59. Labour is already in coalition with the= the official Tories in Stirling and elsewhere. As always, they are to the right of the Tories and are just SNP haters.

    60. Hamish100 says:

      Should the question be asked of all prospective candidates in the Labour party branch if they want tory votes in order to be elected.

      Actually we know the answer tory = tory, labour = tory

    61. davidb says:

      Actually your local council is about the bins, the schools, the street lights and the dog sh@te. How it came to be politicised over the years has been a shame. The lack of engagement by the voters is a reflection of the low esteem they are held in.

      The quality of council representation is fairly poor in a lot of areas. If the dead wood is pruned in May then that is a good thing. It is to be hoped that new blood will remember they are not there to argue about independence or the union. They are there to ensure delivery of decent services at the best value for the tax payers in their ward. And that applies to every council member. Regardless of party affiliation.

      If the Conservatives feel their role is to prop up administrations who have saddled pretty much everyone with PFI, who engage in partisan discrimination in many wards in allocation of funds, and who have been happy to run little private one party states for generations in many places, then they will be acting against the interests of their own voters.

      I hope and expect the SNP in councils to operate in the same way they operate at Holyrood. Solely in the best interest of all of the people.

    62. MJT says:

      I was explaining to my dad a couple of days ago how things have changed. Back in the day, until really the last ten years or so the battle lines were, in the main(Stream), Labour or Tory, folks knew where they were. Tory bad Labour good. You buy yer Record or your Mirror or your Courier or your Scottish Daily Mail…you know what side your bread’s buttered.

      Turn on the TV, shit’s happened, go to Labour Spokesperson, go to Tory Spokesperson…maybe squeeze in a Liberal every so often. And if you’re Scottish for the most part, Tory Bad, Labour Good…doesnae matter cos we’re still getting getting it tight anyways. But you knew where you were when you left the milk bottles oot.

      Now…fuck me…it’s everybody versus the dirty, schemey, rancid Indpendence wanting wastrels. Doesnae matter if you’re Labour, Tory, LibDem or the Beer Skittles and Fag party…all differences set aside…the common enemy is those bandits who have the temerity to want to run their own country. Ha. Close ranks, get in line, listen up, here’s the plan.

      We get the banks, big business, the papers, every man and woman we can muster in TV, Radio…artists, writers, Political Commentators and experts with a 3rd class degree from the University of Auchtertool, everybody…If you’ve got a cat or a puppy or a fluffy rabbit who believes in the sanctity of the union…mobilize them. We cannot let Scotland take control of it’s own destiny…and not to mention the actual wealth of the nation…what wealth? Ah you’re learning fast.

      And somewhere someone is saying…Labour in bed wi the Tories ay? Never thought I’d see that. And a little voice says….shhhh…mibbe enough folks won’t notice. If we just make enough of em feart. Tap into the collective consciousness and mainline them some mare self loathing. They’re pish and they know they are. Always worked before.

      But i pray to St Fanny the patron saint of menial staff that the worm has turned. Mare coffee gadgie.

    63. velofello says:

      Seems to me that a circumstance whereby two parties, of claimed differing political philosophies, each with a minority of seats can combine to bar from power the the party holding the largest number of seats isn’t reflecting the electorate’s wishes, nor a democratic solution.

    64. Takeour blueback says:

      Giving Goose @ 9:39am

      You have it described succinctly in one post. You’re either Pro-Scotland or Unionist. Politics has succumbed to that.

      If this was the case, MSM and Press would be publishing anti-Scots (or Unionist) articles constantly not giving Pro-Scotland editorials or the like….. oh wait!

      Good shout Sir/Madam


    65. Les Wilson says:

      Slab must be crapping themselves for when they lose Councils all their tricks, cons, misappropriating funds, selling assets to friends and others at knockdown prices,Jobs for the boys, etc etc.
      Will become known and open to investigation.I suspect some real eye openers will come to light

      They are so desperate this could happen, they will do ANYTHING to try and stop it. Go together with any party who may afford them a glimmer of retaining power, even of sorts.

      On the day and before then, the shredders will be going 24/7.

    66. CmonIndy says:

      I hope and expect that the SNP (and Wings) will produce a council-by-council voting strategy to maximise Independence supporting wins.
      Because you can be sure that the Unionist parties are doing that for themselves right now.
      Given the lesson from Holyrood election, voting should, I think, be all SNP candidates first then all Green candidates, and never put a Unionist as any preference.
      Or is there something better?

    67. msean says:

      I think because much the same kind of thing almost worked last year in the elections for Holyrood,the trying to convince voters that the game is won for the snp already so your independence favouring party vote won’t be missed wheeze, won’t work this time.

    68. Meindevon says:

      I was thinking I know a few true blues down here in DDD that would be horrified of a socialist collaboration.

      Maybe that’s the way to go. Slab are not really a threat any more. Go for the Tories. Call them corbynistas, lefties etc.. They hate being associated with socialism.

      Get MSPs asking very loud public questions of the Tories and their convertion to blairism. Put the mockers on a cosy, quiet colaboration.

    69. gordoz says:

      Yaaaaaaas true blue Labour in Scotland.

      Errrs yer Labour folks in technicolour

    70. Jimbo says:

      What worries me is the damage they will do before they are removed by the electorate.

      I have this feeling they will embark on a scorched earth policy in an attempt to make life as difficult as possible for whichever party ousts them, and in order to make their successors look incompetent – Such as in the the case of Falkirk Labour leaving a £46 million black hole, probably out of puerile resentment at their impending ejection

    71. galamcennalath says:

      The Tories made modest gains at the Holyrood election by pretending not to be the Tories.

      “That nice Ruth Davidson isn’t really a London Tory” … oh yes she is.

      The Tories in Scotland are part of the one and only Brexit shite storm Tories who are Hell bent on sub-fascist xenophobic isolationism.

      Calling them out as what they are is the way to keep them in check. Associating Labour with the Tories will destroy Labour. IndyRef1 tied them together and talk of council coalitions with reinforce that association. The fortunes of blue and red Tories are inextricably linked together. Talk of alliances can only damage both if highlighted.

      As long as both can pretend to be other than they actually are, they will hang on. Expose their true nature and they will falter.

    72. Breeks says:

      I grow ever more curious about the cohesion of these opposition parties. Labour, Tories, Lib Dems, you get the impression if there was a tap you could turn off at the Border that these parties would collapse in an instant. Ever seen the movie The Abyss? When the door is shut on the water tentacle? Splosh!

      I am curious to what extent the cohesion of Labour and the Tories especially is sustained by food parcels and contraband from friends in the South, because when you find yourself with a managing director like Kezia Dugdale, Murphy, Lamont or Gray, you have a political party with all the presence of the very worst nationalised industry which wouldn’t survive without eye watering subsidy but yet it just hasn’t got the self awareness it takes to make itself dynamic and self sufficient. It’s tired, washed out, directionless and devoid of imagination.

      The Tories are no better. They seem to think the colonial approach to Scotland is going to pay dividends. Wee Ruthie has a slush fund to support the friendly tribes she finds in Scotchland, and her job is to get them networking together and declaring their allegiance to the Empire. It’s the only option they have, because they remain utterly flummoxed by the indigenous culture of the Scots. It’s too complicated. The language, the culture, the heritage, the irreverence, … the threat. Always the threat to Britishness. Aye, the only good indy’un is a dead ‘un.

      Lib Dems? I don’t even care what they stand for. I rather suspect they are negotiable on the subject too.

      If you do spare a thought about a “hard” border, you know, like the proverbial iron curtain decending as it did in Europe, if Scotland really was cut off in such a metaphorical sense, I see nothing, nothing whatsoever in Scotland that would sustain any one of these three parties. I don’t even think they would even be forming the basis for a legitimate opposition party to a buoyant SNP government. They really are “that” out of touch.

      They stand for Union, and British Nationalism, but they have nothing else to offer. Their cupboard is bare. Even the mice are starving. History, if it remembers them at all, will see them as footnote relics from the defunct political era which preceded the watershed event of Scottish Independence.

      It is already beginning. Donalda McKinnon doesn’t even trust them to deliver her BBC message any more. If you want the job done properly, eh Donalda? For the BBC to have any control over us, we have to be listening, but increasingly we are not.

    73. Thepnr says:

      One way to reduce the possibility of letting a Unionist candidate be elected by the back door so to speak is NEVER give them any of your preference votes.

      Only vote for pro-independence candidates if you wish to see a pro-independence majority in your council. If the SNP are standing 2 or even 3 candidates in your ward then vote for all of them.

      Whether or not you wish to give a preference vote to other pro-indy candidates on the list is of course a decision for you alone. I was minded to definitely give any Green candidate on my list a vote as I have a desire to see as many councils as possible in 2017 run by what will likely be the largest party the SNP.

      Now that we know the Unionist patties will be ganging up and forming councils even in those areas where the largest party happens to be the SNP it made sense to try to get the support necessary from other pro-indy parties by improving the chances of their Councillors being elected and giving them a vote.

      Patrick Harvie though cheesed my off big time when he had the Greens vote against the SNP and defeated the government in the OBFA legislation. I felt he should receive a kick in the bahooky for being so stupid.

      I’m still undecided about giving the Greens a vote, though when push comes to shove I might give his party another chance come May.

      One thing I will NEVER do is put an X in a box with a Unionist candidate. Would hope neither of you will either.

    74. Clootie says:

      …well that is clear enough…Labour Party 1st, the Union 2nd and the welfare of the Scottish people last.

    75. Bugger (le Panda) says:

      “HandandShrimp says:
      30 December, 2016 at 11:16 am
      Labour proving that they are the lesser cheek of the Unionist arse and that nothing else matters any more.

      I do wonder who is drafting their strategy…Murdo Fraser?”

      Marcus Gardham and Peter McKay are co-ordinating it and Scottish Office (minus Mundell, of corse) are scheming it up

      Just a guess.

      ps How do I switch off Bold?

    76. Robert Graham says:

      O/T but not much .
      i believe a good number of Wings readers and contributors will be former Labour voters and might find some of the comments and derision even laughter at times a little uncomfortable at times , as i do when comments such as Sevco ,and the former Rangers FC etc , lighten up folks and remember not everyone was born a Wings supporter or indeed a SNP member or supporter or indeed a Independence supporter , remember the real target and goal , we all have different visions of what an Independent Scotland should look like and in the end we will have to live together .
      Just a thought .

    77. I was a shop steward in the shipyards. On the Clyde in the seventies and I used to run the Labour Party down to the lowest and ask my workmates why they could not see through the lies labour were telling them I mean the head of my union lord Coopet a lord at the head of a union? It dwas a farce needless to say I was laughed at and ridiculed but who is laughing now ? They called theirselves the peoples party aye but what people ?

    78. galamcennalath says:

      I see nothing, nothing whatsoever in Scotland that would sustain any one of these three parties.

      Yes. Since they are only branches of London orientated parties, they have fading relevance to Scotland. The minority who feel actual affinity to their Union are the main source of their support. That is topped up by those who vote for reasons of nostalgia.

      The evolving political environment in Scotland will continue to erode their support, when Indy comes as it inevitably will, when cut off from London resources and attitudes, they will evaporate complete.

      iScotland needs the full spectrum of parties from left to right. There will be a place for centre right thinking, but it won’t be filled by the old Unionists, I am certain.

    79. Robert Kerr says:


      Please focus. The Council elections require numbers in the boxes. Not an X.

      This is deliberate confusion and malign silence from the Electoral commission. Three different voting systems. Westminster, Holyrood and Local Authority all different. Not good for democracy.

      Need to explain clearly that you can vote only for ONE candidate if you wish, or two


    80. Robert Kerr says:


      There shall be SLAB damage done before May. Have no doubt.

      For instance North Lanarkshire shall subcontract home care to Mears before then.

      Interesting Times indeed

    81. Ellie says:

      Personally I think this is excellent news. Perhaps the bet way to let the unionists in Scotland finish themselves off is by encouraging them to show their true colours. If the Union Flag is the beginning and end of Unionist ambitions for Scotland then I say let them have at it.

    82. Smallaxe says:

      Robert Graham says:
      ” we all have different visions of what an Independent Scotland should look like and in the end we will have to live together.
      Just a thought.”

      Not just a thought Robert…Reality!

      Peace Always

    83. yesindyref2 says:

      The wisdom seems to be that Labour supporters are moving to the Tories because the Tories are strong supporters of the Union whereas Labour are vacillating. I’m not convinced.

      I think people are moving from the Labour party because they’re vacillating and are seen to be weak, but also because their sole reason for existence seems to be to support the Tories. So why bother voting Labour when you can vote direct for the Tories and make your vote count for more?

      I also think though that perhaps the SNP are losing some voters from the right of centre to the Tories, plus some NO voters (14% according to the immediately after Ref Ashcroft poll). But the SNP are gaining some more Labour supporters. So the SNP support seems to be the same whereas Labour drop and the Tories rise.

      That would be similar to the Indy Ref where people moved from undecided to YES, and from NO to undecided.

    84. hamish says:

      The cushy numbers and sinecures promised to Labour stalwarts in the Central Belt have disappeared.

      What worries me now is the careerists and chancers gravitating to a career in politics via the SNP !

    85. heedtracker says:

      Good example of BBC r4 tory propaganda just there, from Peterhead. The liggers chat with very happy Blue Toon fish merchants, all very Leave, says everyone fash is Leave, fash booming, £50 million for new docks, its all good outside the EU. Two local women hate foreigners, no respect etc.

      Radio 4 Ligger says metropolitan elite portray “the Scots” as Remain but they’re you go everyone, cheeky smirk, on radio. If just one of those feel c_nts had had the decency to say that its been EU fishing regulations, actual regulation imposed, EU investment in new fishing fleet and harbours, that’s allowed not Scottish fishing stocks to recover from the brink of extinction, caused by UK fish industry…

      But that’s not how BBC attack propaganda works. Nice to hear the Doric on BBC radio though, speaking shite.

    86. schrodingers cat says:

      some folk complaining about the STV system. I agree but it is too late now, it wont be changing before 2017 so we need to deal with what is before us.

      the stv system maybe difficult to understand etc, but from a purely voters POV, they dont need to understand it, they just need a simple set of directions, eg SNP 1 & 2

      also, we do NOT need a council by council break down, these are 3 or 4 candidate ward elections and the SNP plan to stand 2 candidates in every ward. once again a simple set of directions, SNP 1 & 2 is likely to cover 95% of all the wards.

      there may be exceptions to this rule in some places, eg orkney shetland etc, but as a task for wingers, making up lists of the exceptions will be a lot easier. bear in mind that there are over 350 wards which is a lot of data to sift through, but i think you will find that vote snp 1&2 covers most of the wards.

      for snp supporters with a soft spot or the greens/rise/solidarity etc, by all means, vote snp 1&2 and greens 3 etc, but know this, in 99% of the wards it will make no difference at all, they will have been eliminated at an early stage in the count, long before either of the snp candidates are eliminated. so the only real National tactic we can pursue is SNP1&2.

      oddly enough, the above advice also applies to green supporters, by all means vote green 1 and snp2&3 if you must, but in 99% o the wards snp 1&2 and greens 3 will be the most sensible option.

      so there you have it,

      2017 local elections tactic
      vote SNP 1&2, end of
      and never vote for a unionist

      2017 local elections strategy

      fact, the snp wont even be contesting over 33% of the available seats
      fact, the snp will do well to win between 5 and 10 councils
      fact, the unionists are favourites to win over all control in over 25 councils.

      the snp and yes voters need to be made aware of these facts to avoid complacency and to help GOTV

    87. Thepnr says:

      @Robert Kerr

      Yes Robert, in only this case you will put a number in the box instead of an X.

      Not sure what you mean though by:


      If there are say 3 SNP candidates are you suggesting that you don’t vote for all of them in your order of preference? If so then I can assure you that you have reduced the chances of all 3 being elected in this type of voting system.

      After your first preference is either elected or eliminated then your next preference vote comes into play. So IMV if you have more than 1 preference then vote for them all. Just not a Unionist 🙂

    88. arthur thomson says:

      The small percentage of people who still propose to vote Slab are the genuine red tories. The working class tutters and curtain twitchers. They are more right wing than the actual tories, believing that they are better than others but always ready to do the bidding of those they perceive to be their betters.

      When it comes to the crunch, maintaining their place in the status quo is what is most important to these people. They lay claim to being civilised but they are just small minded.

      Corbyn, despite his ‘radical'(lol) rhetoric, is ultimately one of them.

      My hope is that Labour will continue to dissolve and that the blue tories will blow themselves apart, leaving space for the the real radical change that is indy. The liars party can just bumble along irrelevantly.

    89. Gary45% says:

      Do not underestimate Labour, expect something mega in 2017 which sees Maggie May chucking in the towel when she gets “found out”. Another Election?
      Labour will do what labour always do “sell their grannies for a shilling” to get back into popularity.
      I personally would laugh at their demise, but they seem to be very successful at flogging a dead horse. All it will take is for the English branch to do something useful and it will have a ripple effect with the “sheep” up here, also the unions will never allow Labour to expire, the old “you scratch my back” syndrome.

      It’s the lying, garbage Tories I am more concerned about, they constantly lie in Parliament are devoid of any morals, honour, genuine political ideas, yet the punters are still voting for them.
      FCKING WHY???!!. THATCHER “never forget”
      To vote Conservative is a bit like sticking you finger in a live socket, you know you will get burned but will become numb to the pain.

    90. Robert Peffers says:

      @Helpmaboab says: 30 December, 2016 at 9:42 am:

      ” … Why would anyone continue to vote for such a party when the Tories do the same job more openly and more effectively?”

      Aye! But the Tories also profess not to be Tories Now. Officially, as stated on the ballot paper, “The Ruth Davidson, (not the Tory Party), Party”.

    91. geeo says:

      So, with it seemingly being labour election strategy to go into coalition with the tories in targetted areas, why would anyone vote labour when they could simply vote tory ?

      Not the sharpest are they….?

    92. galamcennalath says:

      Ellie says:

      Perhaps the best way to let the unionists in Scotland finish themselves off is by encouraging them to show their true colours


      The Tories are still the mad bad shite storm Brexiteers Hell bent on xenophobic isolationism.

      And, Hell mend Lab and LibDems if they continue to support them.

      Call them all out! Make sure they aren’t allowed to pretend to be other than they actually are.

    93. yesindyref2 says:

      Yes, for SNP voters definitely put SNP 1 and 2, and 3 if any wards have 3 candidates though that’s unlikely in most. But also definitely SNP voters should follow instructions, so if you’re in sau the north , vote the SNP candidates A – 1, and B – 2, but in the south vote B – 1 then A – 2. This helps share the vote properly. The SNP activists will know the plan.

      But as for Green 3, there is absolutely zero harm to that, that 3rd preference doesn’t even get looked at until 1 and 2 have either been elected, or eliminated.

      So I would recommend Green 3, or YES Independent candidates. For any with doubts about the Greens, just read Ross Greer’s article in the National, very supportive of the SNP compromise, but the only real way is Indy. Greens are playing a blinder in Indy terms, real friends to Indy. They’re helping to keep the momentum going, while the SNP are still forced to go the compromise route.

      The key thing for anyone to remember – or check out throughly if they don’t believe it – is that lower down preferences are not even looked at until the higher preferences are elected or eliminated, so it absolutely does not reduce the chances of the top selections – 1 and 2. And better to have a Green or pro-Indy councillor than a Tory.

      My own ward is one where a pro-Indy candidate lost out by just a few votes last election, letting a Tory in fourth. Just because SNP voters didn’t put him third. I did the maths – on a posting here some weeks / months ago.

      It would be good if the Rev did one of his articles about this. People might believe him if not me! Also helps the improvement of the YES movement – which for most of us is far more important than party politics.

    94. schrodingers cat says:

      campaign tactics

      while the holyrood and council elections are different, it is ore important to focus on the different types of campaigning, in 2015 and 2016, the biased bbc and unionist media were able to bum up individuals like mundel and ruth and wullie rennie etc, but with over 350 different elections in 350 different wards, it will be very difficult for the msm to have much impact in may, only encumbent unionist councillors in your ward will have any public profile , new unionist candidates will be completely unknown to your voters.

      what is the same for may2017 as for holyrood and the GE is that the unionists do not have any boots on the ground

      in NEF in 2016, wullie rennie was able to over come not having any activists by focusing funding into his area, at the expense o all others, ie, he paid the postman to deliver his leaflets.However, none of the unionist parties have the funds to focus on a sufficient number of wards to have such an impact this time round. the upshot is, 99.9% o candidate specific leaflets will be delivered by the candidates themselves.

      the best the unionists will be able to do is to run a national campaign with the postman delivering a leaflet nationwide with ruthie or wullie sitting on a tank saying vote for your local tory/lib/lab candidates.

      but the snp does have money and activists. in jan when the snp announce their candidates,

      1. organise a ward level meeting for ward members/activists (10-30 on average per ward) in your ward to meet the ward candidates

      2. Discuss the contents of your ward specific leaflets, eg your candidates names, photos but also the local issues which are important to the voters in YOUR ward. the snp hq cannot do this for you, only YOU can do this

      3. there is probably enough money in your branch coffers already to pay or these leaflets to be printed

      4. It costs about £300 to get the postman to deliver a leaflet to everyone in the average ward (about 9k voters about 3k leaflets to 3k letterboxes) consider creating/crowd funding/raffels etc a ward campaign fund. £1000-£1500 will ensure that every house in your ward will get 3-5 candidate specific leaflets in the run up to the election.

      5. with your activists free from the need to deliver your leaflets, you can focus your advantage of having boots on the ground to canvas door to door. street stalls etc

    95. Iain More says:

      So they are just officially confirming what we thought they all were and have been so since the war crim Bliar.

      They have been behaving as goose-stepping jack booting Tory Brit Nats on Councils for years. Well in Moray and Aberdeen they have.

      I class the BLiS gang and the Tories and the Fiberals and even the Independents and Greens here as one giant party of Yoons. I will give none of them any votes next May.

      Darn that STV voting system though. It wont be a matter of what the pollsters say as those Yoons will be harder to get rid of than effin limpets off a rock because of STV. The SNP really needs to get a huge vote to stop a repeat of the last Council elections and you can bet that Donalda and her sidekicks in the Yoon worm Press and Media will be doing all it can to prevent that.

    96. schrodingers cat says:


      I agree about selecting another indy supporting candidate (green/ssp etc) as a 3rd option on your ballot, that wont do any harm. but as a general national guideline it has to be snp 1&2 mainly because voting green 3 in most cases wont do any good. Ie it isnt worth falling out over this issue. the ball is probably not in the snp court anyway, it is the only the greens who can make any real difference by asking their supporters to vote green 1 and snp 2&3. these are guidelines for snp supporters, who make up the bulk of the supporters, general national guidelines cant really include exceptional minority situations, eg those wards with 3 snp candidates

      wrt north south snp 1&2 and vice versa in a particular ward, there may be merit in doing this in some wards and not in others, that will need to be a decision taken by the activists at the ward level. a word o warning though, in some wards in 2012, less than 30% turn out, id be wary o extrapolation anything from such figures. the turn out in may 2017 will be higher

    97. Maria F says:

      “It is understood funding will be ploughed into winning councils where pro-Union coalition deals could be struck”

      This is an incredible and historic declaration. It clearly suggests that the next council elections in Scotland are no longer ‘council elections’. They have in fact become ‘the’ battle for the survival of the Union.

      That sentence also tells us that the battle is going to be hard and will take no prisioners: the unionists are admitting that they cannot win individually and they must pool their forces so they have now ditched any pretence that they are different. They may as well fight under a single banner, to be honest.

      Gloves and masks are now off: LibDems, Labour and Tories are not concerned with pretending to represent the people of Scotland anymore: they are admitting that their only role now is to fight for the survival of the United Kingdom.

      Tories, Libdems and Labour: the three anatomic parts of the Union’s backside: the two cheeks and the hole.

    98. galamcennalath says:


      If there are two SNP (as planned) per ward, then the majority of ordinary SNP supporters will put the first they encounter ‘1’ and the second ‘2’. This is a natural and obvious thing to do unless you personally have a preference for one individual over another. Or, 1,2,3 should there be three SNP candidates.

      Suggesting doing the opposite will only be carried out by activists plus the keen. Most folks will just do as above.

      This might be a bit tough on the candidate further down the alphabet!

      I can’t get my head round whether intentionally reversing some is actually a good idea, though.

      I still believe success comes from getting our ~50% backing actually out to vote! The SNP has grassroots, the Unionists generally don’t. We really could sweep them out of power everywhere if we proportionately got more of our supporters out.

    99. Ot I see Obama has thrown out Russian diplomats for he says interfering in the u.s.elections but it seems it was al right for him to interfer in the Scottish ref.,and bretex but imean a black man telling Scots they were better staying slaves than to seek freedom to me that said it all

    100. Proud Cybernat says:

      The Yoons will, naturally, campaign as separate parties witht he aim of creating Yoonyoonist coalitions where they can. They will never forma a single Yoonyoonist party of Scotland because that would never allow the fair, balanced and impartial BBC to do this:

    101. yesindyref2 says:

      Yes, got to be careful about the order. In my ward one of the two had a lot more first preference votes than the other, strangely enough I know the one who was the main campaigner for him well before I joined the SNP. It worked out OK in 2012, but the surprising thing was a lot of the first preference voters didn’t put anyone else, it was SNP 1 – this guy – and they left the sheet blank after that. I do remember wrong advice going out – and it wasn’t just my ward. In my branch they have the split well covered I think.

      I did try my best with the lower preferences NOT interfering with the SNP 1 and 2, I don’t think they were convinced (including a councillor) about the way STV worked. I did do a page paper in detail, showing exactly how the pro-Indy Independent could have got elected, and found out they knew this, but even so they weren’t convinced. I daresay it’s got binned by now. Shrug.

      What it needs is for Sturgeon and Harvie to do a “participation” thing jointly – use your preferences, it’s very democratic. I’ll try to “escalate” it by writing to MSP and even further, but from experience I probably won’t even get an acknowledgement. Basically the SNP waste thinkers, analysts and tacticians amongst the 125,000 membership, all they want is leaflet pushers. Some of us used to do analysis and plans as a living.

      In my ward by the way, the 3rd seat going to the pro-indy councillor candidate would push out the Tory – or Alex Gallagher. Who I used to actually like.

    102. Thepnr says:

      @schrodingers cat

      As you have just mentioned but others also before you on this thread, that which will make the biggest difference is who and how many turn out to vote.

      It’s fine to have a strategy that will maximise your vote but nothing is more important than getting that vote off the settee and into the voting booth.

      Any leaflets you are printing I would hope will emphasise this, getting the pro-indy vote mobilised is probably the most important thing we could try to achieve.

      If you know someone who is a Yes supporter but doesn’t intend to vote as “council elections are a waste of time” our job is to try and persuade them otherwise. Labour have already stated their intention of focusing on areas where they could form potential coalitions with Tories to rule a council. That could be YOUR Council.

      We must do our best to thwart these plans. Get the vote out and SNP will do much better than anyone could have imagined.

      Failure is not an option with a 2nd Independence referendum on the cards. This just gives Tory/Lab councils like Aberdeen the option to once again send out Better Together leaflets at Council taxpayers expense as they did the first time.

      The Labour-led administration on Aberdeen City Council is to press ahead with sending out letters endorsing a “No” vote in September’s independence referendum.

      About 200,000 letters will be included in bills sent out to council tax payers. The SNP called for the letters to be pulped but the coalition backed the move to send them.

      Labour council leader Barney Crockett insisted it was the right decision. He said: “We are completely confident that what we are doing is not political campaigning.”

      SNP and Lib Dem councillors walked out the meeting after it was decided to hold the discussion on the letters in private.
      SNP group leader Callum McCaig said: “It’s beyond pathetic, this is an out of control administration.”
      Aberdeen City Council is run by a coalition of Labour, the Conservatives and independents.

    103. galamcennalath says:

      Proud Cybernat says:

      the fair, balanced and impartial BBC

      … ah, but it will all be sorted now.

      Instead of Lab, Con, & LibDem versus SNP …. it’s gonna be different since the May election …. Lab & Con versus SNP & Greens all the time, isn’t it? 🙄

    104. yesindyref2 says:

      Shocking story. My own council was SNP NOC by one, then after the last by-election back to Labour again. Can’t see any difference to be honest, but I do remember back in the days of Labour control we used to get a “newsletter”, basically a Labour propaganda sheet. By all accounts it’s not one of the worst councils in Scotland for party politics, there seems to be a reasonable level of co-operation.

    105. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Maria F.

      You typed,
      “This is an incredible and historic declaration. It clearly suggests that the next council elections in Scotland are no longer ‘council elections’. They have in fact become ‘the’ battle for the survival of the Union.”

      That’s the way I see it. But how are we going to get the huge number of ‘disinterested in politics’ voters to nip into the polling booth and cast a vote for Scottish interests in the morning, or after work?

      The biggest fight we have for Scotland’s interests and independence, is voter apathy.

    106. Onwards says:

      I don’t know if this ‘vote Labour for a Tory coalition’ tactic will be a vote winner. Maybe it is more about attracting tactical tory voters than shoring up their remaining support.

      But with the Tories now ahead of Labour in the polls they don’t have to vote tactically any longer.

      Why vote for the Tory lapdogs when the Britnats can just vote for the real thing?

      It’s hard to see a way back for Labour in the UK anytime soon.
      You have to hand it to the Tories. They have scooped up a chunk of Labours traditional working class vote by trumping socialism with UK nationalism and xenophobia.

    107. Robert Peffers says:

      @Maria F says: 30 December, 2016 at 4:00 pm:

      “Tories, Libdems and Labour: the three anatomic parts of the Union’s backside: the two cheeks and the hole.”

      And that, Maria, is the truth, the hole truth and nothing butt the hole truth.

    108. call me dave says:

      @Robert Peffers


      First for a week!

    109. Stu Mac says:

      @Blair Paterson says:

      Not only that, there’s doubts as to how real this interference was:

    110. Hamish100 says:


      re independent candidates who are allegedly pro indy.
      Some local candidates will say anything to get elected– bit like the mainstream politicians. I would ask any so called independent candidate- why are you not in the snp or the greens? Also prove you worked for the indref1 campaign. Too many independents are tories, libs or labour all under another guise as they know they wouldn’t get voted otherwise.
      As for North Ayrshire council– labour stuck it big time to FM N Sturgeon dad. They detest the snp. Cooperation is not in their vocabularly. They relied on tory votes to gain control of the council.

    111. Steve says:

      I received a piece of propaganda from an MSP that did not mention his party once on the 4 sides of A4………..I wonder why, well no I don’t really, he was tory!

    112. Ian Foulds says:

      Succinct point, Giving Goose.

      Pro -Scotland or not

    113. Stoker says:

      John Dickson (Very first comment on this thread)

      Aye! Ditto!

    114. Fireproofjim says:

      Thepnr @ 4.19
      Yes a shocking abuse of power. However if Aberdeen Council is captured by the SNP then a precedent has been set, and there will be nothing to stop the SNP council similarly sending out leaflets strongly endorsing a YES vote in the next inderef.
      Sauce for the goose etc.

    115. Rock says:

      Wipe them out and destroy the BBC.

      Vote SNP+SNP+SNP until after independence.

    116. Stoker says:

      Vote Slabber get Tory. Vote FibDem get Tory.

      Avoid the Tories and vote for independence supporting parties.
      Any vote for a Unionist Party is a sign of Tory rule approval.
      Also, avoid the wolves in sheep’s clothing, those who claim to be standing on an “independent” ticket unless you know 100% they are pro Scottish independence and as anti Tory rule as you are.

    117. schrodingers cat says:

      It’s fine to have a strategy that will maximise your vote but nothing is more important than getting that vote off the settee and into the voting booth.

      this is true, thing is it wasnt the snp members or activists who were complacent in 2016 he, it was the voters who were told by the msm that an snp victory was a foregone conclusion. hence the low snp voter turnout. we need to make clear to everyone that the snp are the clear underdogs in all 32 councils. this isnt hyperbole either, it is a self evident truth.

      dads, re tactical voting, im all 4 it but i dont think it is in the snp hands to do this, we risk descending into the realms of PFJ politics, arguing for Loretta to have the right to have babies even tho’ he cant because he doesnt have a womb etc. No, the only people who can suggest a tactical vote, which will make any real difference, are the greens to their supporters etc.

      as or solidarity and rise, i thin they are now dead in the water and i unsure if the ssp is able to stand many candidates,

    118. galamcennalath says:

      Steve says:

      I received a piece of propaganda from an MSP that did not mention his party once … he was tory!

      The Tories now have a simple approach to campaigning ..

      – Pretend not to be a branch of the London Tories
      – Try to pick up the BritNat / anti Indy vote
      – Chant SNPBaad at every opportunity

      … that’s it. No substance, no policies, no vision, no scruples.

    119. schrodingers cat says:

      re independent candidates who are allegedly pro indy.

      i would think that most independent candidates will be unionists

      as such, we should take it for granted that they are and vote snp1&2. we would be better off making a list of the exceptions, eg like rock’s ward where they are standing 3 snp candidates.

      I think that a list of exceptions to the rule, vote snp1&2, is probably very small.

      saying that, once you know all of the candidates in your ward, you need to go and check exactly who they are, then let us all know if your ward is an exception to the rule or not, that way we can create the list. wos would also be a good place to as i anyone knows anything about an unknown candidate standing in your ward

    120. Robert Peffers says:

      @schrodingers cat says: 30 December, 2016 at 5:54 pm:

      ” … as or solidarity and rise, i thin they are now dead in the water and i unsure if the ssp is able to stand many candidates.”

      Which is why I suggested up-thread that the grass-roots Yes Movement could crowdfund candidates to stand in as many wards as they can finance. Then make it clear they are looking only for second votes.

      With luck some YES candidates will get elected but every one of them will take votes from unionist candidates.

      This might also be effective in wards where unionists are standing under an independent false flag. As I pointed out the YES candidates would be making it clear they were indy supporters looking for second or third preference votes. Unlike the many so called Independents in the past who attempted to mask the fact they were actually a Tory, Labour or LibDem in drag.

    121. Thepnr says:

      I’m not surprised at the fall of the Labour Party in Scotland. They have always had too many for whom self interest was the main criteria for being a member.

      As a naive 21 year old in the early 80’s I went along and joined my local Labour Party. It was at that time lead by the one time darling of Labour and Socialists George Galloway.

      I was in their local office and filled out my application in front of George and A.N. Other. Then handed over my £5 yearly subscription. Mr Galloway turned to Mr Other and said “told you we would get our beer money before dinnertime” and they both laughed.

      I wasn’t laughing at all and told him “that’s not funny” “just kidding you wee man, just kidding” was the response. Now I know Mr Gallow professes to be a teetotaler, well he wasn’t then.

      My dreams of getting involved in politics evaporated, I gave in before even starting. Still voted Labour though in every election. That was until 2012 when I finally gave up in my belief of Labour as being of any use for Scotland or her people.

      Subsequent events seem to have proven me right. I now just wish that I had come to this decision a lot earlier. I just wasn’t looking and didn’t care to look.

      There is no way back now for Scottish Labour and they have done it mostly by themselves. Only phony, pretendy socialists but whose main rallying call is the Union are left supporting the party I once supported.

      Now polling 15% is no real surprise, I shall not mourn their loss.

    122. Maria F says:

      Brian Doonthetoon says:
      30 December, 2016 at 4:33 pm

      “But how are we going to get the huge number of ‘disinterested in politics’ voters to nip into the polling booth and cast a vote for Scottish interests in the morning, or after work?”

      That is a very good question which I do not really have an answer to. My immediate thought is that individually we must do in our circles as much as we can to move those around us to vote.

      I am thinking as much about those ‘disinterested in politics’ as those that are seeing the political world they knew crumbling before their eyes and do not really know anymore what side to take.

      I am referring to traditional LibDem and Labour voters that cannot stomach the idea of this ‘tactical voting’ to support the Tory party and therefore will not vote.

      How to get those on board to our side? I think the way has to be some form of reassurance that while LibDems, Labour and Tories have already decided to abandon the pretence of serving the Scottish people by bringing more division and transforming the council elections into another referendum to ensure their permanence on power, SNP and Greens have not and they are still there to represent the people of Scotland.

      I think it will be useful a compilation of the achievements of the SNP both in government and in the councils they had control over and then contrast it with the ‘excesses’ and failures of the unionists: That example mentioned above by Thepnr about using council funds to send the leaflets with the bills is a beautiful example of abuse of power, as it is the coincidence on the camera in Glasgow going wonky when the demonstration for independence was in the square.

      I think it would also be useful to show that the Greens are acting as a constructive opposition because it will take away the idea that LibDems, Labour or Tories are the only alternatives to SNP. I am looking for something that can show those voters that LibDems, Labour and Tories are not longer indispensable, they have other options.

      As to the ‘apathetic voters’, there has to be a way of injecting fire into their bellies. Creations such as ‘London Calling’, and the Wee books from Stu are the sort of wonderful things that will do that. They have to feel that there is a risk and the only way they can stop it is by voting against it. Or alternatively that they are being taken for a ride and they have to use their vote as a punishment.

      Not many people watches FMQ so I am wondering if some compilation or a selection of the appalling performances and ridiculous contributions of the three unionist parties backing each other during Holyrood sessions could actually get them going: “What do you want Holyrood to be, a parliament for grown ups fighting to make Scotland a better place or a training facility for LibDems, Labour or Tories to put more unelected peers in the House of Lords?”

      or “How do you want your money to be spent: paying for serious MPs focused on Scotland or training LibDem, Labour or Tory political lightweights searching for a London career?”

      Of course, it would be nice to have a compilation of the most outrageous entries in twitter, the MSM and BBC: “Guide for incompetent LibDems, Labour and Tories to survive in Scottish politics: don’t waste your time fighting for the Scottish people, become the press’ best friend/learn how to use twatter instead!

      I think it would be interesting to point out who is really stopping growth in Scotland and why. Outrageous things like the theft of the Scottish waters by the Labour party right before the devolution of Carmichael’s memo nonsense should be brought back to the surface so people knows what they are voting for.

      I also think that anything that could threat our devolution (the Supreme Court case and the realisation of what Tories think of devolution) could also be pointed out.

      It has to be something that angers them enough to get up and go to vote.

    123. yesindyref2 says:

      Aye, but in this case I know the guy, and so do the branch committee. He’s a good guy.

    124. Robert Peffers says:

      @Thepnr says: 30 December, 2016 at 6:37 pm:

      ” … Now polling 15% is no real surprise, I shall not mourn their loss.”

      I have never had any faith in opinion polls, Thepnr. Not since my time as a Trade Union shop steward and safety rep.

      We had occasion to seek local public support and the union brought in a full-time professional to organise a local opinion poll. This guy held several classes aimed at instructing us how to get, “The Right”, result by the choice we made of who to, “Randomly”, choose to stop on the street, which streets to stop and survey on and how to word the questions so as to get the results we wanted to get.

      This was a well researched and studied bit of scientific work. As it happens we did get the results we wanted.
      I’ll give you a comparative bit of similar psychological study.

      If you think that the layout and position of supermarket goods on display is just a random thing – think again – every bloody inch of it is researched and designed to get shoppers to buy more than they intended.

    125. Stoker says:

      Rev wrote:

      “We remain of the firm conviction that at some point in 2017 Labour will poll in single figures in Scotland.”

      Anyone fancy a bet? Mr.McTermite? Anyone?
      Oh well, once bitten and all that, eh!

      Pssst, we’re open here 24/7 if you change yer mind 😉

      What’s the quickest way we can find out what candidates are standing in our own wards?

    126. Tinto Chiel says:

      A great image, Proud Cybernat, and one that reminds us this is now an Independence V Union struggle at every political level. Labour have been played as saps and human shields by the Tories, as the LibDems were before them, yet they want to cosy up even more to the No Surrender Party.

      I always remember The Smurphoid’s put down to Gordon Brewer, who had abandoned chairing the programme and just let the Yoons attack the FM relentlessly: “Are you still here?” Quite a put-down to a BBC ally and hack.

      Incidentally, was round at friends last night, who were watching the documentary on Hamish Henderson, which was excellent. Interested to hear he was banned completely by the BBC and was warned privately that marvellous institution was out to get him.

      Great motivation to get sticking Proud Cybernat’s wee coasters.

    127. mike d says:

      Like someone else said on here, i myself have never voted tory in all my 60 plus years because i detest them and their policies. But if it’s ever possible to hate a political party more than them,i absolutely hate those two faced,snp hating,voting with the tories,abstaining,lying,labour scum.

    128. Hamish100 says:


      suppin with the deil is never a good idea.

      The guy is so good he never joined the snp or greens. Didn’t he stand against the snp in the past including bye elections?

      Just the man to trust!!

    129. Clydebuilt says:

      At 2017 council election…. If you want an SNP win …..give them your first vote…… Don’t give any of the remaining votes to another party…..

    130. robertknight says:

      Power, including allied with the Tories if required, at any cost!

      Red & Blue Tories together!

      What did we do to deserve them?

      Oh yeah, 2m voted No…

    131. Ian Foulds says:

      Well said Smallaxe at 1.59pm

    132. shiregirl says:

      Slab are a disgrace. They are finished.

      I think back to the times where my miner dad was bringing in nothing due to the strike and still held high the principles of the Labour party and paid his subs whatever. Why? they were the working person’s party. As a family we really struggled and received little help. But my Dad felt the Labour party would support them and change the future.

      He is an SNP supporter now. Still supports Rangers, but it’s a start 😀

    133. Peter Macbeastie says:

      I will cheerfully applaud anyone willing to follow any Labour candidate around doing the following line from a certain film starring Tom Hanks.

      ‘Dead man. Dead man walking here.’

      Labour are dead politically. This is the last wheezing of the corpse, clinging to people who used to be their enemy for life support.

      Just die, you useless fuckers.

    134. Fred says:

      Must confess to being a bit pissed-off with some Yoon skippers & fish merchants who think the fish is theirs. The fish stocks belong to the Scottish people full stop. I don’t give a monkeys how many generations they might have had the privilege of fishing them, they’re oors!

    135. Dan Huil says:

      @John Robertson 10:16am

      A agree with Mr Robertson and others that the bbc in Scotland is desperate for Davidson to be seen as creditable. As a former bbc lackey she is still seen by bbc britnats as one of their own, so we shouldn’t be surprised she gets away with what she does. Whenever Nicola Sturgeon, at FMQs, shows Davidson up as the britnat hypocrite she is the bbc always turns a blind eye to its heroine’s failure. The bbc might as well give Davidson a two minute uninterrupted spot every night on Misreporting Scotland. Oh, wait…

    136. Fairliered says:

      I am in the same ward as yesindyref2. I can promise Hamish100 that the Independent candidate voted yes. However, he is not interested in party politics and is only interested in working for his local community. I will be voting SNP 1,2 (and 3 if the local party put 3 candidates forward). I will also be voting for the independent. If the wee scumbag Gallagher gets the sack I will celebrate until very drunk. Unfortunately the Tory will definitely be reelected. The danger is if the SNP and tories both put 2 candidates forward, and the tories gain 2 seats. It is a 4 councillor ward.

    137. dakk says:

      If Unionism is the scourge of Scotland(which it is) then Scottish Labour is now merely a blight on this country.

      Watch Scotland flourish as these grasping,opportunistic dullards have their fat corrupt fingers finally prised from their ruinous governance of Scotland.

      Please let it be.

    138. twathater says:

      Dave 9.22am

      I agree with Dave ( tin foil hat donned) I think this is a little mind manipulation for British Nationalists , a rallying call , if we don’t get together we could loose to these nasty nats and mibbe even lose our great Brutish empire ,these troughing scum will do anything , even working together to preserve their thieving , corrupt ,insidious cabal of nonentities.

      We have to point out continuously and proactively their lies and misinformation , including the promotion of sectarianism by the likes of dopey Fraser and dopey Kelly.

      Their kind are only interested in fomenting division , they and their cohorts don’t give a shit about Scotland or the Scottish people its all about self serving GREED

      Lets not get distracted by targeting one party or the other , with diversionary tactics we could lose focus.

      And as for voting ,we must not get sucked in to the lending votes scenario, as we learned to our cost last time (minority SG ) this works in the British nationalists favour

      We have to nail SNP focused majority Scottish local authorities ,and we need the Wings intelligentsia to explain the methodology to do so

      Green voters i apologize for my bias but the greens at times are being duplicitous we cannot afford this

    139. Stoker says:

      Dan Huil (7:58pm)

      Ruth Davidson is a liar and factual alerts such as the one linked to below need to be thrust under the noses of every household in the country within Tory and FibDem wards especially.

      We, the footsoldiers, are responsible for getting this sort of info out into the wider public domain. We can’t rely on others and we can’t afford to take anything for granted.

      Remember, folks, we’re up against a propaganda machine which operates 24/7 without the need for a break.

    140. Luigi says:

      Since the invasion of the Blairite Body Snatchers, the Labour Party has become a walking corpse. A completely and utterly zombified host, paralysed by the greedy yoon parasites within.

      The problem is, many people still don’t recognise political zombies. They are easy to spot, but some people just aren’t looking very hard. They go into the polling booths with their teeth gritted and their eyes closed. Labour are down but not out. It may seem cruel, but Labour in Scotland needs to be finished off completely. Indy Ref 2 needs to be a straight fight against the Tories. For this to happen, the tories need to be completely exposed by removing that effective human shield of useful idiots known as the Scottish Labour Party.

      I know everyone wants to take on the Tories directly, but first we must remove the shield. The council elections in 2017 are far more important than many people realise. Every little yoon collaboration, every closet red or blue tory posing as an independent needs to be exposed before the vote. No mercy. It’s the only way. 🙂

    141. Artyhetty says:

      As Thepner,6.36pm mentions George Galloway, I noticed a tweet by him today. It said something about Scotland invading Ulster in 1650 something, rampaging warmongers in other words. Have heard that used before, when talking to friends with Irish connections, who see this as a way to reject any mention of Scotland being oppressed, even now,

      Regards Labour, two faced, scheming, lying rogues and much besides. I am sure still some people in Scotland blindly follow them, and who still blame the SNP for the Callaghan defeat which allowed thatcher to take power. How on earth they can justify their party being in tandem with the tories when it means such suffering and destitution for many of our people, is beyond me. In fact, it is disturbing and sinister in the extreme.

      Thankfully many have seen the labour branch in Scotland for what they are, troughing, self serving,
      despicable gits.

      Some great comments today, just catching up now.

    142. schrodingers cat says:

      Stoker says:
      What’s the quickest way we can find out what candidates are standing in our own wards?

      many of the candidates are already in place, the snp will announce their candidates in jan.
      wikipedia shows past results and candidates or the 2012 ce

      Mr peffers
      this system disadvantages parties who stand too many candidates in any ward, thats why in most if not all 3 seat wards the snp will only be standing 2 candidates.

      see the st andrews ward on this page and compare it with the cupar ward(what will happen in cupar next year when the snp stand 2 candidates here?),_2012

      the libdems had 2 councillors in this 4 seat ward but only won 1 in 2012, this allowed an snp and slab councilors to sneak through

      indeed, the unionists have a collective disadavantage in this election, the tory/libdem/slab vote is diluted in the early stages of the count which can help the snp. having loads of other indy party candidates eg, yes, greens, ssp, rise and solidarity etc, will reverse our advantage.
      as far as i am aware, the snp plan to stand 2 candidates in all wards. the greens have already said they will stand 1 candidate in every ward, libdems and tories have already selected their candidates too,

      we should revisit the election on a ward by ward basis once we know who is standing

      does anyone know what ssp, ric and solidarity are doing?

    143. galamcennalath says:

      Wee Ginger Dug accurately summarises how Labour lost it …

      “Labour’s paying the price now for its hypocrisy and deceit. First they were defeated in Holyrood, then they were destroyed at Westminster, now they’re going to lose control of their last remaining councils. Scottish politics are a battle between the progressive social democratic and green politics of the independence movement, and the reactionary conservatism of the Union.”

      … and …

      “You can have the Union, and the Union is a Tory creature, a xenophobic reactionary dystopia that looks out for the bosses and the rich, or you can have progressive social democratic politics which look out for the poor and the vulnerable, but you can’t have both. The people’s party chose to stand against the people. Labour chose the wrong side, and with its demise we’re one step closer to independence.”

    144. CmonIndy says:

      What Luigi said, with bells on.

    145. schrodingers cat says:

      @ Fairliered

      fair enough, but i stand by my comment that it would be easy and quicker to make a list of wards with indy supporting independents than a list of wards with unionist supporting independents

      twathater says:
      And as for voting ,we must not get sucked in to the lending votes scenario,
      Green voters i apologize for my bias but the greens at times are being duplicitous we cannot afford this

      then dont, it has already been pointed out that voting snp 1&2 and green 3 is almost certainly and completely irrelevant to whether a green gets elected from your vote in your ward

      the only people who can vote tactically (by voting snp 2&3) are the indy supporting independents and green voters

    146. Lochside says:

      ‘The Final Surrender’….should be defined as meaning our electorate are faced with ‘Freedom’ or ‘No Surrender’.. meaning being England’s bitch forever and therefore ultimate extinction as a nation.

      Comforting for me is the fact that areas of high English settler concentration: Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Inverness voted overwhelmingly to ‘Remain’. These people are economically sussed and can see what Brexit under Fannie May and company really would mean. Even in the retired enclaves of Dfs and Galloway and Borders significant numbers of these Brit types voted to remain. Only Moray was even close to Ukip-utopia.

      Unfortunately, the usual suspects, the OO Sevco mob of ragged arse tories and their middle class cheer leaders, Ruth the detestable, Kezia the Incomprehensible and Murdo the Queen’s poodle, are still significant in their dumb ass supinity to the Crown and Mother England. And there is a surprising amount of’ non-aligned ‘ mainly protestant middle class who cling to the home of ‘Doctor Who’ and the Daily Hate Mail’ as their first allegiance.But, the signs are that the bad, the ugly and the plain stupid are increasingly being outnumbered as we head to the big showdown in the next 18 months.

      The immediate problem however is to galvanise this growing majority for the ultimate break into making the decision to throw the habit of a lifetime of indifference towards local goverment elections out the window and get off their lazy arses and hand out the coup de grace to the assembled Unionist scum sucking the life blood out of our communities with their corrupt ennui.

      We must make it as plain and direct as we can, to the lethargic masses that the first stage of stopping the Tories once and for all from oppressing us is to get out and destroy the Bitter Together Coalition in these local elections. A similar approach as the RIC and YES did at the Referendum of getting the schemes out to vote is a priority. The middle class unionists will certainly be marking that date on their calendars to stop the hated SNP.

    147. Stoker says:

      Lochside (10:03pm)

      Excellent post! You’re not posting nearly enough these days.

    148. call me dave says:

      Murray Knighted!

    149. Big Phil says:

      Just read all of the above and thoroughly enjoyed all the comments, what is blatantly obvious is that even wingers (who i doth my cap),being politically aware dont really understand STV, so how are everyday folk meant to ?

      “So Missus Wummin, what do think of our STV”, ” Och son a dinnae know but its better than yon bbc shite onyday”.

      I know the Rev says its going to be a boring year ahead, but honestly i think with a wee push we’re getting there.

    150. Dr Jim says:

      Too much apathy in Scotland from voters
      Ach I cannae be bothered wae them

      SNP one party state they squeal, so what, that’s what they have in England with FPTP, the Tories and Labour would kill their own mothers to have that in Scotland and then claim it was because the people loved them, they only scream it about the SNP as if it should be some sort of dire warning of doom when in fact it’s the Unionists who are the bringers of that particular scenario

      Anyway, our most powerful parliament in all of the known universe dictates nothing because every decision made in Holyrood can be overuled by London, and the recent Supreme court case should have confirmed that fact to anyone who wasn’t sure, so who are the real dictators, who keeps telling us we’re equal but shut up and Fukc off in the same sentence

      Ultimately it’s the people who hold politicians to account not opposing parties or the press, that’s a myth put about by those individuals to give themselves an invite to the party so they can talk about the kiddy on democracy thing

      If you have a business you appoint a manager to run it, you don’t then appoint somebody else to keep trying to stop him managing, and if your manager buggers it up you sack him/her and get the next interviews started for something better, why shouldn’t it be the same with our country

      Voters decide what they want, not the opposition, not the press, not the BBC

      We, the people!
      America would do well to look up it’s own words and think on, they were good words

    151. Lochside says:

      Thanks Stoker. it’s mutual.

    152. Still Positive. says:

      call me dave @ 10.33.

      Totally gutted he accepted it.

    153. Big Phil says:

      Maybe thats why Murray lost today, he was worried about accepting it.

    154. call me dave says:

      @Still Positive

      I said this afternoon to my partner, watching him playing, not near his best, he got narrowly beaten in the semi’s. “He’s got something on his mind”!

      I’m neither up nor down about it! 🙂

    155. Thepnr says:


      You are so right in that a RIC style campaign that such as that in the referendum chapping on doors in the schemes would get the results we want.

      We all need to do more than we did the last time, yes all of us. That’s our strength, our sheer numbers, those that are committed.

      The Unionists can’t match those numbers. Each of us as individuals can only do the best we can and I hope that will be enough. I’m looking forward to next years campaigning, some surprises may be in store for Westminster and our media.

      Would love to hear the sound of certain BBC presenters both on the radio and telly sucking soor plooms the morning of the election results LOL.

    156. Thepnr says:

      @call me dave

      I hadn’t heard about Andy Murray being knighted but it doesn’t come as a surprise. In normal times I guess we would be pleased his achievements had been recognised.

      I can accept though that he is a sportsman and not a political figure though the British State see him as such. We should bide our time before anyone condemns his accepting of the “honour”.

      Would be good when the time is right for a knight of the realm to state his support for Independence for his country. After all Sean Connery accepted a knighthood but it hasn’t prevented him from stating his support for both the SNP and Indpendence.

    157. defo says:

      Can’t really fault Andy M. Damned, either way.

    158. sinky says:

      Whole honours sytstem is a farce when tax avoiders like Ken Dodd get a knighthood.

    159. heedtracker says:

      Sir Andrew Murray is Scotland’s greatest ambassador. We might not see his like again. So love every minute, every glorious Scottish World No.1 minute.

      Jamie’s nae bad too:D

    160. Ian Brotherhood says:


      Some great comments above, and a powerful sense of deja-vu permeating the whole thread.

      Aye, come to think of it, we’ve been here before right enough…a lot of the same names, and same arguments.

      Problem for the BTUKOKers is that we’re not supposed to be here now. All this fanciful chittery-chattery cybernattery was supposed to have vanished after the ‘overwhelming’ result in 2014. Scotland had spoken. Come on, FFS, even Oor Ain Rev Stu confessed that he’d considered chucking-it, right?

      But we’re still here.

      Strange, intit?

      Methinks it could be BLiS’s turn to have some serious deja-vu in May, but there won’t be many of them left to reflect on the experience.

    161. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      The two minute video that shows what we have to do in the year ahead.

      A happy new year to Sarah and Sophie!

    162. Dr Jim says:

      Andy’s damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t
      He’s a pro sportsman so it’s good business to accept and from his perspective it’s not political it’s only the Brits using it like that
      If he refuses he suffers down there and it wouldn’t be fair on his wife and family

      We can be bigger than the English establishment and just say well done Andy after all it’s really no skin off our noses and it’s not as if Scotland wouldn’t have honoured him if we could, I just hope brother Jamie gets one as well

      Scottish sportsmen, best in the world, sounds pretty good to me, I’ll take it

    163. Hamish100 says:

      Fairliered says:
      30 December, 2016 at 8:00 pm
      I am in the same ward as yesindyref2. I can promise Hamish100 that the Independent candidate voted yes. However, he is not interested in party politics and is only interested in working for his local community. I will be voting SNP 1,2 (and 3 if the local party put 3 candidates forward). I will also be voting for the independent. If the wee scumbag Gallagher gets the sack I will celebrate until very drunk. Unfortunately the Tory will definitely be reelected. The danger is if the SNP and tories both put 2 candidates forward, and the tories gain 2 seats. It is a 4 councillor ward.

      You avoided my point. The individual has stood AGAINST the SNP on many occassion’s over many years. The person has spoken against the SNP and the candidates (when speaking to labourites) according to mates who live in the area. He also did shit all for indy ref1. This smacks of a wee deal. Beware of wolf in sheeps clothing. To get elected the “independent” needs snp votes. SNP doesnt needs his. You vote 1 & 2 SNP as should all other areas if polling 2 candidates.

    164. Hamish100 says:

      Fairliered says:
      30 December, 2016 at 8:00 pm
      I am in the same ward as yesindyref2. I can promise Hamish100 that the Independent candidate voted yes. However, he is not interested in party politics and is only interested in working for his local community. I will be voting SNP 1,2 (and 3 if the local party put 3 candidates forward). I will also be voting for the independent. If the wee scumbag Gallagher gets the sack I will celebrate until very drunk. Unfortunately the Tory will definitely be reelected. The danger is if the SNP and tories both put 2 candidates forward, and the tories gain 2 seats. It is a 4 councillor ward.

      You avoided my point. The individual has stood AGAINST the SNP on many occassions over many years. The person has spoken against the SNP and the SNP candidates (when speaking to labourites) according to mates who live in the area. He also did shit all for indy ref1. This smacks of a wee deal. Beware of wolf in sheeps clothing. To get elected the “independent” needs snp votes. SNP doesn’t needs his following. You vote 1 & 2 SNP as should all other areas if polling 2 candidates.

    165. Thepnr says:

      This quite simply is why Labour in Scotland are finished. Kezia Dugdales New Year message to the Scottish people.

      “Being part of the UK is even more important to Scotland than staying in the EU and Labour will campaign with everything we have to protect that relationship across our isles.”

      Stupidity on stilts.

    166. Capella says:

      Well done Sir Andy Murray! A knighthood is the least they could do.

    167. heedtracker says:

      Awe, More 4, The World’s Biggest Penis, 12:10 AM – 1:15 AM and its not a documentary about Gordon Brown.

    168. Liz g says:

      Capella @ 12.23
      Aye it is the least they could do
      But I want them to tell us if Andy’s getting a statue like Fred Perry?

    169. Still Positive. says:

      Instead of focusing on Andy Murray’s knighthood, we should be thinking about the honours we want to see in an independent Scotland.

      We can’t have the Order of the Thistle or the Saltire awards as they are already taken.

      I suggest the Wallace awards as the highest.

      Wingers may suggest others.

    170. Thepnr says:

      This is a completely different take on the events in George Square on the day after the referendum. It was BDTT’s post that lead me to this and I can’t believe I hadn’t seen it before.

      The young guy at the end of the video sums it up for me “in the end we will get there”.

      A must watch I humbly suggest.

    171. louis.b.argyll says:

      There’s no problem accepting a knighthood if one likes the Queen and all that.

      There’s no point resisting the Royal’s functions until after such time as there is a politically created alternative.

      Many English ‘celebs’ who reject gongs, usually do so because their conspicuous left-wing-biased-values jar with the despised and establishment that created them. So it’s often refused for vanity, lest one gets a telling off from old chums in the north..

      The UK is fooked, btw.

    172. Capella says:

      @ Liz g – we can decide which honours we want to bestow on our national heroes. I would be very happy to confer a knighthood on Andy Muray. .

    173. Capella says:

      Also a statue!

    174. Liz g says:

      Capella @ 1.02
      So very true…And I think we have a fair few that will be needing replaced very soon!

    175. Flying Scotsman says:

      If Andy accepts these baubles from the British elites,I think I may begin to lose faith.
      It would be one massive kick in the teeth for me,tbh.

    176. yesindyref2 says:

      So what if Ian Murdoch stood against the SNP? So do Green party candidates, so did Margo McDonald as a regional candidate. So what? Not everybody is SNP.

      As far as the mates are concerned, I live in the area, have done for over 35 years, and used to know the community council, on which he has served very well for years. Sure, not everybody likes him, he’s outspoken and active, again, so what?

      I’d most certainly prefer him than Alex Gallagher – or the Conservative councillor who tried to rip him some years ago. There are 4 seats and almost certainly just 2 SNP candidates. Who do you want in the other 2 seats – Unionists, when an Indy supporter can get in? And if so, why? Would you really prefer a Unionist to a YES councillor?

    177. Flying Scotsman says:

      He can have as many Scots honours as he wants,but pls pls pls Andy…..don’t accept one of theirs

    178. yesindyref2 says:

      To anticipate a response about the Holyrood Elections yes, in them, a regional vote for Greens or Independent or anyone else WAS a vote against the SNP, because it’s one less the SNP can get. But for STV the 3rd preference is NOT EVEN LOOKED AT until the 1st and 2nd preferences are either elected or eliminated. And for those who don’t believe me, check this out – it’s an official example of a count:

      2. The ballot papers are sorted according to the first preferences (first choices) marked by the voters and the total number of votes for each candidate is counted.

      3. Any candidate whose vote equals or exceeds the quota is elected. If any candidate
      has more votes than the quota, that surplus above the quota must be transferred in
      accordance with the second and later preferences recorded on the ballot papers.

      Note that: “The ballot papers are sorted according to the first preferences”. The same thing happens after a candidate is elected – or eliminated. So the 1st SNP candidates votes are not transferred until elected or eliminated, the same for the 2nd SNP candidate. Only when both are elected or eliminated will the ballot papers be transferred further down the list – to the 3rd candidate, in this case the pro-indy candidate. By that time both SNP candidates are either elected or eliminated, so that 3rd preference vote does NOT stand against them.

      In reality by the way, I think it’s done electronically.

    179. Big Phil says:

      Thepnr, I grew up with the same shit as them “rangers supporters”, but I coulndnt for the life of me understand their believe, its so wrong. Its a cultural thing and its inbred, i cringe when i see a wee baby with a rangers top on, and from there the yoon is born.
      I’m Scottish my country must surely come before a fitba team, I hope her majesty’s HMRC take this and every part of it down. then some folk might see the light.Might be the only time i agree with hmrc. and before i get shit i grew up a rangers supporter in parkheid.

    180. Elmac says:

      Have just watched the link per thepnr post at 12.51. As he said the “young guy at the end” is very measured and uplifting. Compare this with the knuckle dragging drivel on view. I can tolerate people who have a different point of view provided they have enough marbles to think for themselves. Even those who cannot see beyond the outright lies of their daily diet of BBC and the MSM. I live in hope the scales will be lifted from their eyes. But there is a large pool of mindless bigots such as those on display in the youtube clip who are beyond redemption.

      Unfortunately scum like this will be have to be dragged kicking and screaming into an independent Scotland. I have some sympathy as most of them will have been indoctrinated from an early age that they are superior to their peers on the grounds of religion and/or race. They will believe what their bigotted parents have instilled in them and, because of a segregated education system, they will not be exposed to alternative cultures and values.

      I have friends of differing cultures and faiths who all strongly believe in faith schooling but, if we are ever to heal the wounds in our society and avoid the scenes in George Square after the referendum vote, then we need to bring people together. We could start by having our children educated together rather on the basis of faith. Perhaps then young people will learn tolerance of others and develop the ability to think for themselves rather than mindlessly perpetuating the bigotry of their parents.

    181. Richardinho says:

      This is natural human behaviour when there’s no chance of saving the ship, and so instead the crew scramble to save themselves by clinging to whatever piece of wreckage they can find.

    182. Sunniva says:

      watch out. they will paint it as a Tory revival.

    183. twathater says:

      Elmac 2.51am

      Very wise words and I have uttered them myself on many occasions, school is for learning life skills not pandering to others beliefs, IMO there will always be bigotry until we can tolerate togetherness

    184. Dr Jim says:

      Morning news folks

      An Olympicfest of self congratulatory back patting again
      except the BBCs presenter can’t keep the bitterness of his face at Andy Murray being awarded anything
      Likewise the SKY presenter who also doesn’t think sports people should get awards anyway….but Jessica Ennis Hill’s different she’s an icon apparently

      The Commonwealth Games must have been a figment of my imagination, it’s like they never happened

      But let’s look back at the year they say, so they begin talking about Scotlands First Minister Nicola Sturgeon while showing pictures of a silverback gorilla and they tell us they showed us that to point out sometimes the BBC makes mistakes

      Djae think so, djae really think so, it must be the banter, ah jist love the banter, me
      Well ye huv tae or ye cannae take an English joke kin ye ya miserable Scotch moanin faced whinging spongin gits

    185. One_Scot says:

      So it looks like Andy Murray has succumbed to The Dark Side. Clearly the Force was not as strong with this one as I thought it was.

      But to be fair, he is not the first, and he probably won’t be the last.

    186. Luigi says:

      Gutted to hear that Andy Murray has finally given in to them and accepted a knighthood. The pressure must have been relentless. I wonder what the carrots and sticks were. Oh Boy, will the BritNat establishment and MSM make a meal of that one. To accept a knighthood means you accept the system and all the shit that goes with it.

      Gutted, but hey life goes on.

    187. Luigi says:

      Oh well, there’s always the remote possibility that Andy will be pissed off about something in the future and hand his knighthood back.

      That would be something worth seeing!. 🙂

    188. scottieDog says:

      Ref andy murray.
      It’s just a title and I can’t imagine the crap coming down from the establishment media had he refused.

      The guy just wants to concentrate on tennis. Fair enough I say.

    189. Dek says:

      Getting freedom from Westminster is a long game. Let’s show some restraint in criticising Andy Murray’s acceptance of an ” honour ” from this rotten state. Imagine the shitstorm if he had refused and that had leaked out – as it would have.

    190. Grouse Beater says:

      Yet another death:

    191. Dorothy Devine says:

      Grousebeater , unfortunately it still walks , talks and gets lots of time on the BBBC and in the press.

    192. Luigi says:

      I just hope Andy M exacted a heavy price (extra funding for Scottish tennis?). It must have been pretty unbearable for the Establishment to have “their” greatest ever tennis player without a BritNat bauble. Thye would have offered anything.

    193. ScottieDog says:

      @Grouse Beater
      More of a continuing suicide. Death by a thousand self-inflicted cu@ts

    194. Barry ferguson says:

      The only problem with wiping out labour, is the tories will pick up a few more votes and then convince a huge swathe of the country that they are on their way back

    195. Famous15 says:

      Re the knighthood.

      I have been watching that programme on King George and Queen Mary. The Labour Government and the National Government fell over themselves to tug the forelock when visiting the King. He had them in top hat and frock coats. The King hated socialists as they had killed his favourite cousin in Russia. Princess Margaret too hated socialists as evidenced by her letters to Maggie Thatcher.

      To Andy Murray,Sean Connery,john McCormack etc the Queen is Queen of Scots and we the people carry her sovereignity. We permit her reign unlike The English who are her subjects.

      The honour was well earned!

    196. Vestas says:

      We can now ignore anything Murray has to say on ANY subject other than tennis.

      When you bend the knee to the English crown then you’re part of the establishment. End of story.

    197. Fred says:

      Knighthoods for Andy & Ken Dodd are nobody’s business but theirs, refreshing that they’re not paedophiles anyhow! Her Maj will probably have to be told who he is anyhow.

      @ Lochside, always like the posts kid. To the point, concise & not half a page of waffle.

      Has to be, vote SNP & keep the Tories out!

    198. Early Ball says:

      Give Andy a break. He has put up with more crap than any of us will have to deal with.

      It would have leaked out that he refused it.

      Back to the topic though and I gave my third vote at the last council elections to a nice but Ill-informed Liberal lady who came to my door. Imagine my surprise when she got in and formed part of an anti-SNP coilition that controlled the Aberdeenshire council. Never again.

    199. louis.b.argyll says:

      She’s still Queen of Scots, and we all bend a knee to the establishment every time we use a bank, leave Andy alone ya twats.

    200. Vestas says:

      @ louis.b.argyll 9:13am

      I don’t recollect any coronation of her as queen of scots, nor do I EVER remember her being referred to as Elizabeth 1.

      Its an entirely English monarchy, nothing else.

      Oh and he could have said “No”. He’d have the support of millions of people all over the UK who are sick of the parasitical scum called the “Windsors”…

    201. Dr Jim says:

      And because Andy said yes and accepted the award half of England have turned nasty on twitter towards him and showed them up for what they are

      Are we to have more of the same here or can we not be a little better behaved than the Union we’re trying to get away from

    202. Fred says:

      I was in a bank yesterday & do not recall bending a knee to anybody!

    203. louis.b.argyll says:

      Good morning Vestas..AND I absolutely agree with your points, almost completely…

      He could, indeed, have said ‘no’.

      He DID however say he SUPPORTS SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE, which is a bigger statement than accepting the gong.

      Many lifelong indy supporting members OF MY CLOSE FAMILY, have a soft spot for the Royals, viewing them as OURS TOO, and post indy, restoring the ‘of Scots’ part.

      Me? I’m 100% against royalty, but RESPECTING others softness is important.

      Post indy, post new settlements, post dust settling, I’ll then go against eg, my own mum, by supporting a referendum on Royal interference.

      Until then Vestas, true as your sentiment is, I’ll not share in denouncement of independence-supporting individuals.

      It’s ten years until this issue will truly rise, once the palaces of London lose their grip.

    204. louis.b.argyll says:

      This isn’t the age of the Covenanters is it?
      Way before the 18 century rebellions etc..
      The Stuart dynasty was just as ‘weird’ as the rest of the European aristocracy.

      The Covenanters resisted their ‘divine right to rule’ for religeous Jésus or God are head of church, NOT Kings.

      The Covenanters were then suppressed and driven to the edge of reason.

      Funny then, that they became both ‘pro and anti’ Royal patronage, but gave credence to protestantism..hich is now entwined with the Medieval Church of England.

      It’s not as simple as being for or against, it’s way more complicated.

      Ps. Rev says be nice, (maybe that’s why he’s predicting boredom)
      Be boring, stand-fast and win..or bicker divide and fall.

    205. louis.b.argyll says:

      Presbyterianism is possibly THE MOST left wing Christian system.

      Protestantism is an oppressive and aggressive English version..similar to catholicism.

      We had an enlightenment, didn’t we?

    206. harry mcaye says:

      Andy Murray accepted an OBE in 2013 and Jamie has one too so he was never going to turn down a knighthood, was he? Judy will already be thinking about her outfit for the palace do and his wife too. He has to think about his career, he represents Britain in the Davis Cup, he’d like the Wimbledon crowd to remain supportive. It’s a no brainer for him sadly.

    207. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Flying Scotsman at 2:00 am

      “He can have as many Scots honours as he wants,but pls pls pls Andy…..don’t accept one of theirs”

      I’m maybe displaying my pedantry here but, as others have mentioned up the page, for historical reasons, Elizabeth is “Queen of Scots” and not just Queen Elizabeth 2 of England.

      I’d rather we didn’t have a monarchy but as we do, I don’t see why a Scot, Andy Murray, should refuse a knighthood from the Queen of Scots.

      The problem we have in this (dis)United Kingdom is that there is a vociferous bunch ‘dan sarf’ who seem to believe that Elizabeth is their exclusive monarch and only the English should be rewarded by her. Unfortunately, there are Scots, like Flying Scotsman, who also assume that the monarch is the exclusive property of the English kingdom.

      Just look at the Twitter comments at the link below for confirmation of the ‘dan sarf’ element of that last paragraph. WARNING! Many swearie words!

    208. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat @ 18:27, 30.Dec,

      Sorry for turning up to this discussion late after a health outage, but surely the answer to the question of what to do about independents standing is for someone to ask each of them, preferably in public, if they would unequivocally support an SNP administration?

      The false-flag Tories, LibDems etc. won’t be willing to give that promise for fairly obvious reasons, and many of the (relatively few?) genuine ones might also be unwilling for fear of compromising their neutrality, in which case indy supporters should simply avoid giving any preference to these people.

      A yes-supporting independent however would surely be willing to give such a promise, in which case they could be included as a last preference to give them a chance of holding off any challenge from the others.

      It’s maybe a shame that independents in a local election should be caught up in a binary indy/unionist squeeze, but them’s the times, folks.

      As the Herald article says, Labour are desperate to hang on where they can, whatever the longer-term cost, so they can hail “holds” as some kind of victory (with the help of the usual media suspects).

      As Luigi rightly says back at the beginning of this thread, they seem to have learnt nothing and are intent on a further bout of self-harm by being willing to associate once again with the Tories.

      I just hope that the SNP and Greens pound out this message in their upcoming campaigns: any preference for Labour is a vote for the Tories!

    209. Hamish100 says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      31 December, 2016 at 1:53 am
      So what if Ian Murdoch stood against the SNP? So do Green party candidates, so did Margo McDonald as a regional candidate. So what? Not everybody is SNP.

      As far as the mates are concerned, I live in the area, have done for over 35 years, and used to know the community council, on which he has served very well for years. Sure, not everybody likes him, he’s outspoken and active, again, so what?

      I’d most certainly prefer him than Alex Gallagher – or the Conservative councillor who tried to rip him some years ago. There are 4 seats and almost certainly just 2 SNP candidates. Who do you want in the other 2 seats – Unionists, when an Indy supporter can get in? And if so, why? Would you really prefer a Unionist to a YES councillor?

      Since you named the individual it is clear you know sweet twaddle about him. Narcistic to a tee. Did nothing for indy ref 1 unlike many I know who worked for the cause and still do across Scotland. So is there a deal been made? vote for Murdoch to keep Gallagher out or is it Marshall? Some people dislike him more!! Why not a further snp if you are so confident. Apparently Murdoch went around Largs running down the previous (now deceased SNP candidate) who wouldn’t give him the time of day. As one of my mates has stated – the guy has had 40 years to join the snp or the greens for that matter.They work in a local branch nearby and know him well. If snp sup with such persons they will get what they deserve. Vote positively not negatively. Lets vote for someone who has consistently voted against the snp is hardly a good slogan.

    210. Stu Mac says:

      @Early Ball

      Thing is that somewhat “nice but dim” people like that liberal lady don’t get that voting as a representative on your local government (or Scottish government even) is not the same as an Indy Referendum. You are supposed to be voting for what’s best for the people your council/government is responsible to. Voting anti-SNP and allow damaging policies to be enabled by doing so is really pathetic. Perhaps you should have written to her explaining this and pointing out the damage (plenty of evidence I’m sure for this) being done thereby. Of course perhaps she is dim but not really as nice as she made out.

    211. Stu Mac says:


      Excuse me but Protestantism is a generic term covering all the reformation churches. English Protestantism – officially the Church of England – is a form of Episcopalianism. But England also has Methodists, Quakers, etc. who are more “left wing”. Scottish Presbyterianism of course has elections but in the past that has been controlled by a clique who shared some of the bigoted and prejudiced attitudes of the worst unionists. It’s a much better run church now but hasn’t always been.

      You are really giving an example of some people here who can’t help but see everything English bad and Scottish good – open your eyes and mind.

    212. yesindyref2 says:

      @Hamish100 “Lets vote for someone who has consistently voted against the snp is hardly a good slogan.

      This shows how wrong your information is. How can he have voted against the SNP since he’s never been a councillor, MSP or MP? The community council is basically non-political, after some time wow, years back, can’t think when, last century anyway, there was a determined effort by people I also knew well to stop the Labour domination of it. I’d have been on it but I travelled too much.

    213. Hamish100 says:

      Sorry- you are wrong. Yes he is a community councillor on & off(completely apolitical- never a bad word to say about NAC when run by the snp!! lol).

      He has stood as a candidate for election to NAC many times and ran down the snp at every chance. Simple, factual and accurate.

      If you want a 3rd pro-indy – select another snp candidate. That is all I am saying. Most indy councillors I know in the past are retired or run a business and are tories. Now in Dunbartonshire they are ex labour candidates who now know they need to say they are independent to get elected. Don’t trust “indy’s”

      North Coast and Cumbraes – 4 seats
      Party Candidate % 1st Pref Count 1 Count 2 Count 3 Count 4 Count 5 Count 6
      SNP Alan Hill (incumbent) 27.40 1,705
      Labour Alex Gallagher (incumbent) 18.38 1,144 1,167.5 1,197.2 1,281.9
      Conservative Tom Marshall 18.37 1,143 1,161.3 1,173.7 1,176.7 1,182.6 1,599.7
      SNP Alex McLean † 17.52 1,090 1,441.8
      Independent Ian Murdoch 16.34 1,017 1,050.5 1,103.5 1,126.9 1,137.7
      Socialist Labour James Anderson 1.99 124 128.6 137.5

    214. Lochside says:

      ‘Presbyterianism is possibly THE MOST left wing Christian system’

      Really?….remember the so-called Church of Scotland bowing its knee and then bending over to be royally buggered by Mrs Thatcher in the ‘Sermon on the mound’ at their Assembly. One of the most abject and disgraceful staged political ‘events’ created by the Unionist organisation of mealy mouthed toadies that this ‘institution’ truly is.

      Then there’s their ‘left wing’ policies right through the early 20th century of anti-Irish and anti-Catholic rhetoric from their pulpits. And we wonder why we still have to suffer the presence of the phlegm-flecked cretins venting on @ Brian Doonthetoon’s video at 11.53. Better to watch the positive hopeful future contrasted on @ Thepnr’s video link of the George Sq. riot.

    215. Effijy says:

      Laboratory: A Lab-or-a- Tory is a facility that provides controlled conditions in which Political and Financial constraints can be placed on the Scottish electorate while ensuring Westminster gets full use of another countries resources and revenues.

      Both Red and Blue Tories teamed up to a Lie and Scaremonger campaign in the Scottish Referendum, both wanted to impose a decade of Austerity cuts, both worked together in high profile pairs for EU Remain, both worked together to kill off the Anti-Bigotry Football laws, and now they are working hand in hand to fight these Scottish Council elections as a United Westminster against Scotland party.

      Westminster is the Tory Party HQ where their members pick up different coloured rosettes to make the rich richer and their colonies resources in the Treasury.

    216. Hamish100 says:

      Lochside — do you really think the “unionist cretins” in “Independence Square” could find their way to any Church or explain the concept or theology of christianity? They are ignorant individuals who believe life began around 1690 in Ireland.

      I would agree that the role of the so called Church of Scotland in the Scotland independence debate is a disgrace. Its “executive” are tories & union flag wavers. Increasingly it is losing any hold it may have once held over this nation. Indy for Christians is much more reflective and dare I say caring.

    217. Smallaxe says:

      May I wish all Wingers and the whole of the “YES” movement of all creeds colours and orientation, a happy, prosperous and Peacefull New Year which brings us closer to our ultimate goal of Independence.

      A dream you dream alone is only a dream.A dream we dream together is Reality

      Peace Always

    218. yesindyref2 says:

      @Hamish100 “He has stood as a candidate for election to NAC many times and ran down the snp at every chance. Simple, factual and accurate.

      Yes as far as being a candidate, but that’s not what you said, you said he VOTED against the SNP. He’s never been in a position to VOTE against the SNP. He’s also as entitled to be a candidate as any of them, and indeed as I am.

      I’ve been pro-Indy since 1972, but if I had ever wanted to stand for the council it would have been as an Independent, that’s more my style. My vote is my own and belongs to no party at all, and I don’t really like party politics, it’s too tribal.

      But I joined the SNP, my first ever political party, after the Ref like 100,000 others, to keep Indy alive, and am currently even a committee member though I’ll probably resign as by the nature of my business I’m unreliable, and don’t have the time to give it my best. I’d hoped to contribute in other ways like strategy, but that’s not working out.

      I’m also not a party animal, couldn’t canvass or doorstep or help on a street stall as though I support the SNP generally being far closer to my thoughts than any other party, I’d not be prepared to argue policies I don’t agree with, nor distribute leaflets I didn’t totally agree with either.

      As far as the community council is concerned, then if there is a problem with the council, they’ve voiced it whether it was Labour or SNP (now Labour again). Which is their duty. In the same way you could say, Ian Black SNP MP is complaining about the Calmac service Armadale to Mallaig, Calmac being SG and hence you could say, SNP. That’s his duty.

      There was discsussion apparently about a third candidate (I missed that), but the decision was to run with 2. I agree with that decision having fully analysed the result from 2012, runnning a third could split the vote enough to only get 1 elected – that’s the problem with the way STV transfers votes, it does it as a weird and wonderful fraction of votes surplus to quota, over the total number, so that a vote only counts once. Having lived here for nearly 40 years, I’m still amazed the ward elects 2 SNP councillors out of 4, it’s both a miracle and a tribute to the hard work of the branch. This was a 75% NO town. I spent Ref day in Dundee with my son to get into the YES.

      Anyways, we’ll probably agree to differ, quite right too, so Happy New Year to you when it comes!

    219. Vestas says:

      @ louis.b.argyll 10:02am

      “Many lifelong indy supporting members OF MY CLOSE FAMILY, have a soft spot for the Royals”

      Do they have a “soft spot” for the future King Charles & Camilla? His worthless brothers & his “son” by another man?

      I bet they don’t.

      Everyone (including me) has sympathy for Elizabeth – she’s had some monumental fuckwits to deal with as politicians but she knew the boundaries of a constitutional monarchy. Charlie boy doesn’t.

      I have most sympathy for Philip – he may well be a racist twat (a child of his time) but he’s had no real role in life other than consort for 50+ years.

      But Charles & Camilla? Fuck right off would be most people’s initial reaction 🙂

      Oh & have you had a wee look at whats on the postboxes in your area? Its not ER1….

      Have a good new year matey.

    220. Hamish100 says:

      sorry yesindy ref2
      re north ayrshire

      If the “independent” stood as a candidate against the snp ( more than once). I am 99% certain he voted against the snp and for himself. If he was supportive he would not have stood. Simple really. As for pro indy why did he not help the indyref1 campaign? Why does he not ask his supporters to vote snp?

      Bottom line based on what you have commented on so far the snp branch concerned is hoping that an independent (anti-snp) candidate splits the vote to stop labour and help the snp? Lets hope you don’t end up with 2 tories and the anti snp indy instead.

      Remember the Greens would help the snp in the Scottish Election. That went down like a lead balloon.

    221. Fred says:

      3,000 burnt witches! how left wing was that?

      All the best folks!

    222. yesindyref2 says:

      @Hamish100 “If the “independent” stood as a candidate against the snp ( more than once). I am 99% certain he voted against the snp and for himself.”

      How on earth does he get to vote in the Council if he’s a candidate, not an elected Councillor – he never got elected?

      That’s a new one on me, have the rules changed?

      No they’re not hoping the Independent will split the vote, they have no control over the Independent hence the word “Independent”, which means “Independent” – the very thing we want Scotland to be. What they might hope is that the Independent will be elected instead of the Tory (Marshall) or the Labour (Gallagher) who would always vote with their own party. The Independent will vote with no party, but according to his own views on policies.

      The Greens never said they would help the SNP in the election, they’re a totally different political party and are as entitled as any part to stand candidates, canvass for support, and get elected representatives. That’s a little thing called “DEMOCRACY”, and thank God we still have it.

      Currently the Greens are the only party in a position to actually moount an Independence campaing, as they are not constricted with trying to keep Scotland in both the UK and the EU. Now I don’t know about you but I think that is a GOOD THING, as it means the SNP can continue the lnger game, while the Greens put Independence front and centre again. Exactly as they are in fact doing.

      Anyway, that’s all from me, as I said, Happy New Year.

    223. Hamish100 says:


      He votes in an election and against the SNP

      So at least it is clear the choice of your SNP branch is to support a proven anti snp candidate in order to keep labour out –rather than the tory based on the previous figures.
      Most Indy’s in NAC voted for who?
      Personally I would vote snp.

      Happy New Year –SNP 1,2 & 3

    224. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Lochside @ 14:09:

      […]remember the so-called Church of Scotland bowing its knee and then bending over to be royally buggered by Mrs Thatcher in the ‘Sermon on the mound’ at their Assembly.

      No, sorry, but that’s just not true. I recall that well. The General Assembly welcomed her with the necessary civil courtesy, of course, but those present did not react at all well to her preaching to them in the haughty manner that she chose. There was by no means some kind of forelock-tugging on that occasion, quite the reverse. The Assembly as a whole was visibly affronted.

      In fact, that was arguably the occasion that sealed Scotland’s dislike of the politician, right across the board (even a few Tories, I think).

    225. yesindyref2 says:

      Not in 2012. it was the Conservative elected 6th and final stage, Labour were at the 4th stage.

      But you can see from the full figures that if those who had voted SNP had put SNP 1,2 and Independent 3, then the Independent would have been elected at the 4th stage, same as Gallagher, after the exclusion of the Socialist.

      In detail the total of non-transferable SNP votes was 121, the quota was 1,245, and at stage 4 Murdoch had 1,128 but would have had 1,249 – 4 above the quota. He’d have been duly elected as the 4th Councillor at the 4th stage, instead of Marshall at stage 6.

      In fact not all SNP voters even did SNP 1 and 2, some only voted for 1 SNP candidate, and in those days, some even put Labour after SNP.

    226. Greannach says:

      It makes sense to rationalise things and have Ruth Davidson and the Dugdale one as rotating co-leaders of the Conservative and Labour Unionist Party, the natural home of people like Jackson Carlaw, Alistair Darling and UK Rowling. Willie Rennie might be invited to join, if they could remember who he is.

    227. Lochside says:

      Robert J. Sutherland …sorry but why did they allow Thatcher to address them in the first place? She was devastating our industrial heartlands and yet they according to you:

      ‘welcomed her with the necessary civil courtesy, of course, but those present did not react at all well to her preaching to them in the haughty manner that she chose. There was by no means some kind of forelock-tugging on that occasion, quite the reverse. The Assembly as a whole was visibly affronted’

      Sorry for having a wry smile at the ‘visbly affronted’ bit…Black affronted might have made the mark…but ‘visibly’?
      All I saw was one of the supposed guardians of Scotland’s identity and sovereignty cow-towing to a despotic bastard. And no amount of rewriting history will change mine or many others perception of this shameful event. At least when the SFA serfs invited her to Hampden for the Scottish Cup Final the assembled fans of both Celtic and Dundee United made it very’ visible’ and vocal that she was unwelcome. The day the Church of Scotland or the rest of our ‘institutions’…Churches, Legal Establishment, Universities etc. stand up to the Colonial overlords then I’ll show them respect. But the fact is that train has left long ago.

    228. louis.b.argyll says:

      My my..some of the positivity /righteousness in comments here, comes double edged, ‘my’ opinion is ‘more’ right than yours etc.

      Aren’t we all right..within the bigger picture?

      We (all kinds of families) face hard truths and even a little self-effacement if we are to truly respect our identity.

      It’s not an argument, it’s a conversation, (stupid!).

      Dont we all (at least hope to) arrive at the truth in a different way?

    229. Smallaxe says:


      Fully agree.31 December 2016 at 3:17 pm

      I hope you have a Happy Prosperous and Peacefull New Year

      Peace always to You and Those to whom you give your Love

    230. Hamish100 says:


      We are going to have to agree to disagree.
      I say put up another snp candidate. Persuade stay at home SNP to vote 1,2,3.

      You believe your snp branch should support someone standing against the SNP and who has with some form on this and has already criticised them.

      Have a good 2017

    231. louis.b.argyll says:

      Thanks Smallaxe, all the best to you.

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