The dragon fighters
Posted on
March 24, 2018 by
Chris Cairns
The world's most-read Scottish politics website
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A tall tale
Wee Books
Video
Probably a robbery
Transphobia
Mike Russell, looking resplendent as Scotland’s champion.#HOOP
Here be dragons!
Arise, Sir Feorlan!
“Thou shalt not pass (legislation)!
Chris, I see what you meant about eating something and having weird dreams… mair cheese!
“Arise, Sir Feorlan!”
hmmm it has a bit of a ring to it Alan,
would almost be worth having our own house of………what?…..im going im going no need to shove!
“The First Minister has ordered that the land be scoured and a great beast of legend be found”
A Unionist politician who puts Scotland first.
More chance of finding a dragon actually.
Alan @7.16
it’s aw that foreign muck he eats when he’s on one of his (many) holidays!
Strangely enough Russell looks like Jenkins who is Galahad in the Librarians but with glasses.
Great cartoon, with Michael Russell as Guardian of Scotland. Richard Leonard asks about something which Holyrood has no say in. Again.
We should make the slogan ‘It’s Scotland’s parliament’ more prominent, to stop these lying tory filth from Westminster, and their ‘scottish’ stooges destroying our democracy.
In other matters, is anybody as angry as I am, at the mainstream media news blackout regarding the wholly disgraceful behaviour by the Rajoy madrid fascist Junta. Right at the heart of Europe, in a supposed democracy, people are being beaten, and imprisoned daily on made up charges, purely for their political views. And the leaders of the world’s democracies say and do NOTHING.
Never let those same ‘leaders’ ever again criticise North Korea or Russia, or any other country, for undemocratic behaviour when in the Spanish fascist state, the fascist party leader, Mariano Rajoy, is leading his country into dictatorship, RIGHT at the very centre of Europe.
Their is something very rotten about the way in which the mainstream media (and governments) across Europe and in the USA are simply blanking this out. Something very wrong indeed.
The current behaviour of the Madrid fascist government, leads in one direction, civil war.
Boycott Spanish goods. Do Not go on holiday to Spain.
George and the dragon … pift!
Give me Feorlean and the dragon any day of the week! ;D
Captures Dick Leonard perfectly – lost and useless, and behind the Dragon, looking the other way while Scotland is attacked.
ps What cereal does Chris eat before bed – I want some!
Robert Louis says:
24 March, 2018 at 7:33 am
Indeed. Without a genuine, “free” press and an honest, impartial media, democracy is a sham. Maybe it always was.
Are you folks willing to fight on and on and see this through? I ask because things are going to get tough. The British state is not going to take this existential threat lying down. Dying beasts are dangerous. What if we narrowly loose IndyRef2? Do we just give up and throw the toys out of the pram?
Never! Just by fighting on, just by continuing to exist as a movement, we quicken the downfall of the empire. Some of us will never give up, no matter how long it takes.
It was never, ever going to be easy, my friends. IndyRef 2(and beyond) is going to be a completely different beast from its predecessor, probably involving boycotts and legal challenges (and the heavy hand of the state). Whatever happens, it is important that we decide (now) to fight on. Forewarned is forearmed.
It’s going to get rough. Enjoy the ride. 🙂
Great cartoon, Chris. Very evocative.
@Robert Louis; exactly that. You have assessed the situation precisely as I have. Our disgusting ‘leaders’ have finally demonstrated openly that all along they have demonised, monstered and destroyed states that don’t bow to them, in no small way to portray those other states as evil for the crude and disingenuous purpose of needing an opposite foil to make themselves look ‘good’.
Whereas, a state who is ‘one of their own’ can do the exact same things and often worse with impunity. Anyone with a sense of decency may well now be asking why rogue states like Spain or Turkey are still members of NATO if it’s an organisation to defend decent values.
Which it ceased to be in 1989, if it truly ever was anything other than the military wing of Wall St.
None of this of course deflects from Chris’ excellent cartoon or the impressive display of solidarity shown at Holyrood yesterday. I think the people of Scotland can take pride that they have demonstrated their pride and belief in our parliament.
Excellent Chris.
Mike Russell has really grown in my estimation of him.
He is proving to be the man we needed for the job. Says things as they are and pulls no punches.Glad to have him there.
We certainly could do with more of his kind fighting for us.
Terrorism—-the use of violence and intimidation especially against civilians, for political aims.
Spain is doing exactly that right now. Dictatorship by Democratic government never ends well. Like most I am utterly appalled at the EU doing little or nothing to condemn this outrage. Not even the offer of mediation.
In order to maintain cohesion of the remaining 27, they are allowing one to Act like Franco Spain. I am actually beginning to seriously question the EU.
Agreed regarding Fascist Spain.
I picked up some supermarket grapes only to have them returned when I seen that they were Spanish.
I was due to have a brief holiday in Spain, but that is off the table too.
Came home last night and wanted to chill with some TV.
Found that yet another England Friendly Football game was being thrown down Scotland’s throat.
The English elite who control all UK media really are rubbing in their powers over my country as every England International Football match is shown in Scotland, Men’s, Youths, Women’s teams are all shown here while the one and only match broadcast with a Scottish team in it could only come about as they played England.
Our team certainly are in a period of transition and not doing so well, but its my country’s team and its the only International matches that Scots are interested in.
EBC Licence revenue from Scotland supporting England- AGAIN.
once again the bbc create false news -hundreds in attendance at Holyrood it appears. Even the Hootsmon says thousands. The anon bbc reporter should have their cv checked to see if they have an 0 level in arithmetic. As for moral compass and the truth that is judged differently. In that respect they have failed miserably once again.
One of the best ever,
The unionits politicians and their associates are trying to destroy the world. Lying their pockets with public money. Killing and maiming millions of people. Lying and chesting. Greedy and manipuling. Criminals of illegal associations. Wasting £Billions of public money. Wicked beyond belief. They are psychopaths. Nasty and spiteful. Do not vote for them ever. Or any other manipulative liars. Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Vote for prosperity, equality. Justice and democracy. Do the the world a favour.
There is no Democracy in the UK. Or in other so called ‘democracies’. Westminster unionists politicians and their associates are complete and utter crooks and liars. Trying to destroy the world economy. Using public money to abuse the public.. Rigging elections. To line their pockets with private and misused public money,
May, the Hedge fund manager and Johnston are psycho liars, They and M15 more likely poisined their spy. They are trying to divert attention away from their murderous adventure. The mess they are making of the economy. They wanted the spy kept quiet because he was responsible for the ‘dirty dossier’ lies on Trump. Instigated by Clinton to discredit Trump. Clinton the crook who illegally killed millions of people and empoverished America, £Trns in debt.
Trump knows about it. M15 were bugging Trump for the CIA/FBI. former US corrupt administration. Johnston is trying to bring Trump into a war on Russia borders. To create a diversion to the Brexit mess and to appease Russia emigres. They are funding the Westminster regime with stolen Russian money. Trump is having none of it. He knows the Westminster regime were helping Clinton and Obama to bug him. To try and discredit him with a non existent Russian connection made up with lies by the spy and the Westminster regime connections. Ex M15 Steele etc. The total corruption.
Johnston and the Westminster criminals have taken £Millions from the Russian oligarths in London who have stolen £Billions from Russia and are holed up in the West. It was not Putin thst was interfering in Western elections. It was those who accuse Putin of interfering. They are trying to blame Russia for what they are doing. A double fraud. They are re routing their criminal actions through Russia to try and hide their trail. Setting up corrupt internet networks. Paying people in these locations to do it. Then blaming Putin for it.
Johnstone and the Westminster criminals tried to keep the spy quiet. By planting chemicals in the house.
The Russians saved the West in the 11WW. The West are trying to destroy Russia. No gratitude
Some People are trying to destroy the world committing illegal actions and close down debate. Along with their crooked politician mates. Taking illegal bribes and embezzling public money. Supporting facist States and itheir illegal actions. Far worst than getting a dog to perform some tricks. They are murdering and killing millions of people and misappropriating and manipulating public money. Causing the worst migration crisis in Europe since 11WW. They should feel ashamed. They are ruining the world economy. For £Billions of public money and remuneration . A lot of crooks acting illegally. Leaving people to die. So much for justice. Go after the wee dog. One man and his dog. Totally disproportionately.
Any interference in ElectionsRegerenfum. was paid illegally by pollsters gerrymandering and manipulating the result with illegal criminal data. Paid by corrupt Western politicians and their associates so they could embezzle £Billions of public money. The EU Ref, the Scottish Indy Ref and others. They should be declared null and void. Or a re run undertaken.
All over the world elections were illegally gerrymandered and and interferred with by illegal pollster companies paid for by corrupt unionists politicians and others. Based in the UK. They should be declared null and void. They were being financed and rewarded with public money. An absolute scandal.
Some people might be thinking what have I done.
They might have destroyed the hard data but they will have to do a lot to wipe peoples minds.
The truth will eventually come out.
Vote YES next time
Who’s going to tell him dragons are a reserved matter?
Leonard, hapless, helpless & hopeless!
The lies and half truths from McDonald and Tumbkes the 3rd rate rejects troughing on public money. The so called delays on the AWPR. They voted against it for thirty years and watch as £Billions of oil revenues went south without any infrastructure support. The total hypocrites and their false outrage. The useless lying incompetents.
At least Alex Salmond and the SNP finally got it built. Thank goodness. It will transform the NE/Scottish economy. Especially in the Oil sector downturn caused by Tory/unionist high taxes on the Oil sector. When prices had fallen. Total and utter complete mismanagement by the unionists. Costing Scotland £Billions and 120,00 jobs. Lying Westminster sycophants. They haven’t got a clue. Put a sock in it. People are sick of the slavering psycho bastards.
Some of the contractors cleared off to start Hinkley Point contracts before Christmas. Leading to some delay. Hinkley Point the unionist grotesque monstrosity waste of money of no value. Overpriced beyond belief, Costing Scottish taxpayers.
Let’s allow the English FA to manage our football team for us..
In return Scotland gets to manage it’s own eg employment law or fisheries.
Sounds less damaging to our nation.
Mr Tumbles – Rumbles. Voted with the Tories to try and bring Holyrood down. Despicable. They should hang their head in shame.
louis.b.argyll says:
24 March, 2018 at 9:07 am
Let’s allow the English FA to manage our football team for us..
In return Scotland gets to manage it’s own eg employment law or fisheries.
Sounds less damaging to our nation.
What a great idea – let’s get something useful in return, and the proud scots can go and join them. Careful though, we know what happens to poor quality, reject fish (ask Mr Farage). 🙂
Ken500,
it is indeed a disgusting history of enforced abuses, the British Empire.
Somehow, despite an alleged educated population, the same OxBridge royalist Torytypes, as those who invented concentration camps and first used gas on the battlefield, are still running our pathetic United Kingdom.
What is Richard Leonard doing about the existence of Scotland?
It’s high time he started supporting Scotland instead of asking inane questions on reserved matters.
Thank goodness for Mike Russell.
Effijy
Spot on.
And the proud Scottish public sit there and accept it. There is no other country in the world would put up with it.
But I suppose if they are prepared to stand back and allow Scotland’s wealth to be plundered and it’s culture diluted it’s hardly surprising.
Luigi, yes, we should make lists of things we value and respect and lists of stuff that we can devolve to English control.
One long list, one short.
link to bbc.co.uk
Cambridge Analytica ‘does everything’ for the winning President in Kenya elections in 2013.
And in IndyRef14? When is the truth about Better Together’s campaign going to be told?
Having used Analytica once to win, why would the Tory Govt stop using them at all – especially when Strategic Communication Laboratories has such longstanding and close ties with the Tory Party?
I think that dragon might be wetting itself.
Does the title ‘The World’s Most Brainwashed Country’ now belong to Scotland ?
It’s certainly in the running.
We should propose a Commons Select Committee to pick all home nations football teams.
Stuff it with Lib Dems and baronesses?
No? Why not? Well we allow it to happen with FAR more important stuff.
The Union is now too surreal to survive.
If it isn’t plausible that Russia was not involved in the poisoning of the Skripals as the EU now believes, then, with bankruptcy for rUK at stake and the Tory Party’s affiliation with Strategic Communications Laboratories, it is not plausible that the UK Govt was not involved in manipulating the result of IndyRef2014.
Sack Better Together McLeish and just put Big Jock Sentumu in charge of Scottish “football”.
It is only a matter of time before Leonard demands to know why the FM has failed to act on US gun crime.
I hate to be picky, but, if I can be hyper-critical, I don’t think Chris has quite captured the full, awful glaiketness of Small Dick Leonard.
How dare you ruffians criticize unionists and unionism and the glorious British history and it’s glorious history? How many times do you people have to be reminded of “British values”?
This dragon is demanding the controlling interest in Holyrood to turn it into a dragon’s den.
Time for the people of Scotland to do a Sugar and say to Westminster “You’re fired!”.
Does this mean that the EU is also a dragon that Brexit is saving Holyrood from?
Absolutely stupendous Chris.
Mike Russell is, no doubt about it, the man who is fighting dragons every day and still has a sense of humour!!
Ken500
I’m loving your assessments of situation as it stands. Spot on about so many things and who is controlling who. Mair power to you…
I felt the same when I saw Leask (Herald) being lauded for exposing the Scottish limited partnerships money laundering scams.
Peter Mullin took it to Westminster to get it included in the justice bill, the UK Minister didn’t know anything about it, even though this system started in England and has been around for over 100years.
The fact of the matter is Scotland could have dealt with it as an independent country but Mullin had to go cap in hand to May to ask for something to be done. She said she would sort of look into it.
Leask and the unionist cabal campaigned to stick Scotland with Westminster. Now taking credit, while Scottish MPs have to ask pretty please for the Tories in Westminster to take action.
Mike suits armour. You’ll be giving him ideas. 🙂
Mr Leonard is pointless. His party in Scotland more so and saying that gives me absolutely no pleasure. For no movement that practises politics for a demographic of a population should be pointless.
They are however, what they are.
Their dishonesty is written all over every FMQs, every week as they lead with questions on issues reserved to the remit of Westminster government. Issues they fought to ensure were beyond the remit of Holyrood and the Scottish population. It is evident every time they undermine our services and laws with an obvious attempt to discredit or damage our mandated government. It is evident every time a Labour politician attempts to rewrite their own history on a given policy area or claim credit for actions not their own.
There IS only one of two explanations logically possible. Either the Labour party are woefully uninformed on the matter of devolved or reserved issues.
Or
Or they seek to mislead the electorate of Scotland. Idiotic or deceitful… quite a choice. Fair to say, that some folk have reason to believe both may apply. Others would say (and have said) that’s all part of the rough and tumble of politics. It’s how politics is practised. What’s your problem?
The problem, is that it’s not how Labour are attempting to re-brand themselves in the eyes of the public. The problem, is that the sainted Jeremy (Mr Leonard’s boss) promised people ‘kinder, more honest’ politics. A sea change in how politics relates to and engages with the public. The problem, is that since coining this phrase Labour’s practice of politics, especially in Scotland, has been anything but kind or honest.
What has this brought them? More importantly what has it brought the population? What do they think these practises will do to our society? Where do they think this will all end? People getting back in their box? One nation unity? Community solidarity? If they believe that continuing to practice politics the way its always been done is the answer, then clearly they haven’t been paying attention to the world.
So yes. idiotic and deceitful.
Nice one Chris, Mike Russell is certainly the man for the job.
How much longer are we going to let this situation Drag…On!
Thanks, Chris.
😉
Excellent stuff, Chris. Leonard continues to live in la-la land.
Gfaetheblock says 24 March 10:50 am
“Does this mean that the EU is also a dragon that Brexit is saving Holyrood from?”
If your british – it probably does.
If your Scottish – it does not.
I view the EU as an imperfect union, but for all its faults, it is a union that works on a continental scale, where even the smallest state has a voice and veto.
Conversely we have the uk union, which is not a union, it is modern day colonialism. One nation dictates the rules, the other three nations have no voice or veto.
As the Irsh PM said, Ireland would not enter into bi-lateral discussions with the uk on the border, Ireland would speak through its 27 EU partners as it was stronger as a result of the parnership!
Good one.
I have questions about the Catalonia events, and the attitudes of Madrid and the EC.
Does the economy of Catalonia support that of the remainder of Spain, and would Spain’s economy be troubled by the loss? Would this affect the Euro, since Spain has had problems there, and is this why the EC refuses to be involved?
Wee Dickie is in a tailspin,yearning for the good old days when his dutch oven smelled of HP or Herr Liebigs sauce,luckily for his partner it is but a dream.
Meanwhile Mike outmanoeuvres the beast and moving quicker than a hiccup,extinguishes the dragons fiery tendencies….he tames him.
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger,more complex and more violent,it takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move folk in the opposite direction.
Well played Sir.
Superb ‘toon, Chris. With that look on Tricky Dicky’s face, it leaves me wondering where Feorlan’s lance is?
BREAKING from Pravda Quay
with Union Jackie Kim Ono:
Mike Russell would know how to spell Keir Hardie. He’s a better defender of our democratic rights than any Labour incumbent.
Richard Leoard knows nothing about the founding fathers of the Labour movement; Keir Hardie, Robert Bontine Cunninghame Graham, John MacLean and, more recently, Jimmy Reid.
All of them were convinced that Scotland ought to run its own affairs and campaigned for Scottish Independence from Imperialist Westminster.
Great cartoon. Sums up the situation perfectly.
That Russell chap sure is doing a grand job. Unfortunately, the dragon has the London media onside so not many people know.
Nice to see jdman back, happy birthday.
Proud Cybernat
The next turnout in support of democracy at Holyrood will no doubt be described as ‘dozens’ by the BBC.
Cometh the Hour, cometh the glass eyed non entity. Certainly another one for the framing and hanging, in Holyrood entrance, also, Holyrood gift shop post cards.
Is it Ok to bootleg these:D
Anyhoo,
Why does that Leonard nobody keep doing this anyway?
Poor Kez really must be pondering the wisdom of that reality show thing. “How to end a very promising career in UK politics” by J R Hartley. Chapter One. Appear on an awful English reality tv show, for no good reason, in the middle of term time too.
Chapter Two, er that’s it.
Is there some way a poster or similar hi viz campaign can be conducted in Leonard’s patch (Central Scotland)? He is simply letting down the voters of all political shades.
They deserve better from their representatives.
stv showed footy and obesity as main topics on teatime and evening news…holyrood totally ignored…well done them, slow handclap….Chris has beautifully captured Mike Russell saving our beautiful Holyrood from the evils of this corrupt Union….Thank you Mike, so heartening to have you fight our corner…
Given what’s currently happening in Spain – and being ignored by the EU –
It’s going to be politically grim if the ground for a second independence referendum is that Scotland is being taken out of the EU against its wishes.
stv showed footy and obesity as main topics on teatime and evening news…holyrood totally ignored…well done them, slow handclap
STV tories soon to have company, from Channel 4 tories. Yay! Even more English high tory liggers kicking the living shit out of Scottish democracy, in Glasgow. Probably wont happen but stinky olde The Graun never miss a Better Together trick in their Scotland region.
link to archive.is
Channel 4
Glasgow launches bid for new Channel 4 headquarters
Moving HQ to Scotland would give clear signal that Channel 4 is for all of UK, bid’s backers say
We should not be surprised that NATO and the so called defenders of freedom and human rights are saying nothing about the unjustness that is happening in Spain they have stood by for years and done nothing about the unjustness and murder and theft in Palastine
Yes, manandboy. There is lots to come out, but I doubt we will ever hear the truth. Regarding the investigation being made by the Information Commissioner, yes, she might look at CA involvement in the European referendum, but will she even look for evidence of involvement in the Scottish referendum? And if she does, will it be publicised?
There’s a pretty good interview in the Guardian with Brittany Kaiser, former CA director. The interviewer asks the question, “So were CA involved in the European referendum?” Where are the Scottish journalists asking her, “Were CA involved in the 2014 Scottish Independence Referendum?” Why aren’t they beating a path to her door?
We know that Experian were involved. They were the ones that made the Patriot database used by the Better Together campaign. And we know that some staff from Experian moved to CA at the end of 2014. A quick search on Linked In will tell you that.
There are some other issues that no-one seems to have investigated yet. For example, we know that FB sold data to CA, and that CA used not only that data but harvested lots of other data too for their analysis, and the making of targeted ads. So FB profited from the sale of the data. But I can guarantee you that they also profited from the targeted ads that were made and broadcast once that analysis was complete. I suspect that the ad time was worth many times more to FB than the original sale of the data. So FB had no real incentive to go after CA after they were informed of the breach.
I also detected some carefully worded responses from Downing Street. “We didn’t use CA or SCL”. But CA were caught admitting in that C4 undercover report that they often use 3rd parties for invoicing. They could so easily make up shell companies too. Or indeed, there are undoubtedly other companies out there doing exactly the same thing.
Which brings me to the other thing that is really bugging me, which is whether the costs of these targeted FB ads are included in the election and referendum spending. How would the Electoral Commission ever find out if, say, the Better Together campaign had got some company in Panama to take out ads in FB? It would probably take a team of forensic accountants to figure that one out. And who would bother? Surely not the Electoral Commission, or the Information Commissioner. Again, where are the investigative journalists who will investigate this on behalf of Scotland?
This just in……
Richard Leonard demands, why won’t President Donald Trump nationalise Scotlands dragon population, the President has all the powers of his office why won’t he use them…says Richard Leonard
The President replied…That’s really really baaad and big and fantastic, and I really really mean that folks, it will happen….
On the other hand, of course, the Better Together campaign didn’t really need targeted ads. The BBC did their job for them.
link to opendemocracy.net?
Reading this piece in ‘Open Democracy’, it becomes clear that Westminster is a den of dragons, all working as a team, all nationally and internationally connected, very powerful and wealthy without limit.
It is in this context that the future of our tiny and fully colonized country with unlimited energy assets as well as copious supplies of the necessities of life, food & water, should be understood. This little country is a great prize and there are many who mean to control it, and exploit it, both in the UK and elsewhere.
It should also be borne in mind that the main purpose of the Tory Party is not politics but rather the continuation of a Colonial Empire, seen as the indispensable life-support system for the English Establishment with the Monarch at its head.
This is what the Independence movement is up against.
This is why just having a Referendum will not be enough. No, it will have to be a Referendum free from the interference of companies like Strategic Communications Laboratories and Cambridge Analytica . But the den of dragons in Westminster have absolutely no intention of letting that happen.
As has already been noted elsewhere, modern warfare is conducted digitally. The worlds wealthy elite, acting through the English Establishment and its political wing, the Tory Party & Govt., are already engaged in a war with Scotland, while Scotland’s leaders are constantly distracted and drained by the Unionist Alliance MSP’s and BritNat media, and its people drugged and confused by relentless Tory propaganda.
Right now, the electorate in Scotland do not know what to think of all that has been going on in the past few years. They don’t know what to believe.
Mission accomplished .
The only reason that the international community intervened in Northern Ireland was because it allowed the U.K. to save face.
The insurrection that was the thirty year Troubles could not be contained despite all of the insidious deployments the U.K. could muster. The same may be true of Catalonia, and sadly may also prove to be the way of Scotland too.
Democracy in the U.K. is an illusion. Folks in the Scottish independence movement know that. They also by and large know that like Willie McCrae, there are dark forces who will stop at nothing.
Already with Cambridge Analytica it is emerging how inextricably linked the establishment, the military and the state special branch are linked in the use of mass media misinformation and manipulation. And with internet censorship gathering apace, it doesn’t take much imagination to realise just how that combined with data sifting and retention will facilitate a reich that will be near impossible to topple.
Scotland is an unarmed society, the U.K. is not, never has been and never will be an unarmed state more than willing to take by whatever means what it wants.
Is there an actual Welsh dragon to face up to that shagged out old bastard up there?
link to bbc.co.uk
Mr Price will make several proposals for a “vibrant, confident, successful nation” to be achieved by 2030.
He will also call Wales “a wealthy country whose people live in poverty”.
Mr Price, AM for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr, will “tackle the myth” Wales is a poor nation by claiming, in terms of per capita income, it is richer than “every nation in Asia bar two, every nation in the Americas bar two, and richer than more than half of Europe”.
Great dragon, great caricature of Leonard.
In answer to his question “Just fine. But how is his party doing in the Land Of Dragons?”
I believe the major difference in this upcoming indyref, is the threat of Legal Action is firmly on the table if WM do not stick to the rules agreed this time.
I am sick of telling people that the non delivery of the ILLEGAL Vow was not the issue last time, but rather the fact it even existed in the 1st place.
The offer of more devolution for a No vote was a clear breach of the Edinburgh Agreement, and was also an absolute, No chance THAT will happen, insistence by Cameron.
You cannot expect people to respect the RESULT when they (WM) did not even respect the QUESTION.
Every road (except one) leads to a court affirmation of Scots Sovereign power being with the People of Scotland, and proving that Sovereignty has been subjugated by WM, which would clearly be a clear breach of the very Act and Treaties of Union itself, thus ending the Union in a courtroom.
The ONLY road available to avoid the above scenario is this..
The SG TELL WM they are having a referendum as per their legal democratic mandate, they will inform the WM GOV they want a Section 30 order, and an Edinburgh Agreement 2 arrangement, which must be adhered to this time or face court action for breach of agreement, and the indyref will be held at the time of the SG’s choosing.
Failure to agree to ALL of the above and its off to court, affirm sovereignty of the People, claim that sovereign will is being subjugated, game over in a courtroom.
If anyone knows another scenario where court action is not involved, i would love to hear it.
It seems to me, the SNP SG have skillfully led all roads to this juncture.
The EU Continuity Bill is THE pinnacle of that journey, and is probably the most important bit of legislation in Holyroods history.
It basically makes the Sewel convention legally binding to WM. A Scottish Legislative Consent Motion cannot be ignored now, not without the SG going to court to affirm sovereignty and prove subjugation.
stv is the last “regional” itv station in the UK; the rest have all been shut down and their studios demolished. The only reason I can see for their continued existance is as useful idiots for a Westminster establishment which requires their political propaganda to be delivered with a Scottish accent.
The events in Catalonia do show us how the EU responds, or rather ignores, a disgrace to democracy on their doorstep.
It is something we should consider deeply when watching these events unfold.
The result of this on me is that we should join EFTA, and not apply for full EU membership.That is a decision that should be taken after winning Indy2.
Fully debated, and the EU actions across the board should be examined and considered, only after such a debate,only after that, will we be able to make an informed choice.
We may not choose not look at the EU with rose tinted glasses.
@SOG,
Like Scotland,Catalonia contributes more per head than the rest of Spain to the Spanish economy, therefore Spain would most definitely feel the loss.
Robert @7.33
Agree with everything you say.
I am literally dumbstruck at the hypocrisy in show.
Condemn the Russians on the say so of Theresa May with no proof, yet stand back and watch and do nothing about Spain. Rather like Neville Chamberlain and Germany.
Also disturbing is that the oppression is not being shown on the media. You’d think there was nothing happening, just like on a lesser note no or little coverage of yesterday’s HOOP demonstration.
Absolutely fabulous image there!
Dick Leonard ttreats Scotland, Scotland’s parliament and Scotland’s people with utter contempt.
Was just discussing that last night with friends, the tactics being used at Holyrood by him to undermine our Scottish parliament and act all innocent. It appears, he is even briefed on how to diseminate falsities in the actual parliament.
Along with the media the aim is to cause confusion and to portray Scotland’s parliament as a wee council meeting, talking shop. Not many will see Nicola Sturgeon taking him to task on this, week in week out. He is wasting time and money, he should not be allowed into the parliament to speak at FMQ’s until he stops wasting time and stops outwardly lying about devolution. Imagine in your job, in a meeting, make stuff up, lying, and actually acting against the company you work for. You would not last 5 minutes!
Deny Scotland exists, silence the democratically elected government. It’s all there, and along with Catalonia and the Spanish regime, within the EU, it”‘s all looking very dodgy from where I am seeing it. Like others, I am seriously questioning the EU as it is operates today.
Anyone know much more about Treeza coming away from her 2 days in Brussels all bright eyed and bushy tailed? How much more of Scotland has she agreed to sell off cheap, because there is a lot to do dirty deals with and with the EU27, it’s looking like they have few scruples at the moment.
Oh, and try finding much veg in the shops that isn’t Spanish. We are being flooded with it, in supermarkets! We need much more locally grown veg, it’s like gold though, expensive and hard to find.
And keep in mind –
What is happening in Spain is taking place while an EU summit is being held.
link to archive.is
Re;Heedtracker@12.36
I read that as STV Stories! So the media, England’s media are moving in on Scotland, while Scotland has no powers to have their own tv broadcasting. How very democratic indeed.
Ch4 are lying toads, pretendy lefty like the Graun, even pretending to call out the tories for their ultra right wing policies attacking the poor. People are actually fooled, that’s the worry.
Oh, bloody hell. Is there no end to the diversions that bubble-denizens on here must indulge themselves in? We’ve just about managed to stop wittering on in defence of poor wee Russia – a fight in which we have no dog – and now we’re taking on the EU again.
Time people woke up to two salient facts:
+ by far the loudest protesters insisting the EU “do something” about Catalonia are the selfsame people who want the EU to be nothing more than a trading marketplace. Go figure.
The best ambition they can muster on a good day is for us to be a full-paying “vassal state” without a seat at the top table. Oh, the cringe is so very strong in some.
+ like it or not, it’s Scotland being taken out of the EU against our manifest will that is the sole justification and mandate for indyref2. If, despite all the mounting evidence of this truly historic UK clusterfolly, you still can’t grasp that, welcome to being stuck with your luverly BritNat Engerland and getting trampled all over for another generation or two!
There’s way too much pointless static on here these days. Please, can we just keep our eyes on the ball a lot more…?
artyhetty says:
24 March, 2018 at 2:11 pm
Re;Heedtracker@12.36
It probably wont actually make any difference to C4 vote NO vote tory output if they do come to Glasgow, they may aswell move to Mars.
They are a total English tory broadcaster, focused entirely on England, with a ham jock continuity guy.
Last week C4 liggers were in Glasgow, literally filming from the gutter, an alley behind Sauchiehall Street, they’re all junkies here, England.
That Graun shyste today about C4 maybe coming, is an ideal example of tory English betterTogether propaganda though.
What I do not get is why they are not heading to Edinburgh. The idea that your nation’s parliament has no actual mainstream media corp, beeb gimp style, actually in the same city, is probably not a UKOK coincidence either.
Two citadels of power, in a battle to the death, Holyrood in Edinburgh, BBC Scotland in Glasgow.
C4 only piling in behind by massed ranks of beeb gimps in Glasgow, probably in that same Pacific Quay “science park” too.
manandboy says:
24 March, 2018 at 1:03 pm
….Reading this piece in ‘Open Democracy’, it becomes clear that Westminster is a den of dragons, all working as a team, all nationally and internationally connected, very powerful and wealthy without limit.
It should also be borne in mind that the main purpose of the Tory Party is not politics but rather the continuation of a Colonial Empire, seen as the indispensable life-support system for the English Establishment with the Monarch at its head….
I forget the name of the journalist, but there was a profound comment she made about all the 18th, 19th and 20th Century Emperialism and colonialism being geographical, such as the British Empire turning half the globe atlas pink. The same global colonialism is still happening in the 21st Century, more powerful than ever, but it is mostly invisible and no longer concerned with, or limited by, geographical territories or borders.
Who needs burdened by a nation’s territory if you can exert control, exploit its people, and plunder its resources remotely from afar?
It needn’t be done in the name of a country either, if a Multinational Corporation will suffice.
@SOG 11:49am
You have it right there. Always follow the money.
The EU has two hats : the trading collective and the political entity. Unfortunately this schizophrenia has been difficult to seperate though they have tried and failed before.
Spain is in real trouble with debt, aren’t we all. The EU is in difficulty with finances as is the Globe in general.
Catalunya is Spain’s “breadbasket” it really is. The loss of Catalunya would devastate rSpain’s fragile economy. I think they are sitting on a public debt of 100% GDP (?)
Secondly, politically, the EU wants to behave federally but can’t. True federalism would happily accomodate seccession and small states. However, the EU is primarily ‘old’ states with a vested interest ‘now’ in keeping their states in one piece. Historically the EU was almost approaching an United Europe federalist entity (which it wanted) but got knocked back gradually.(Remember the Dutch and French giving it a big “Nope”) So it fell back to it’s default of trading cartel and a handful of players and as such it’s now all about the money.
Naturally politics affects money and the recent diaspora from the East has really put the EU under pressure (Quick question – economies collapsing, mass immigration from the East, rise of fascism, pogroms – which decade are we talking of? Correct, history repeats itself)
Global politics plays it’s part, in that there are states which have a vested interest in being anti-seccessionist -we’re talking China here. It certainly isn’t interested in autonomy for Tibet and it sure as hell wouldn’t have any whisper of seccessionism within greater China.
Which brings me to the point that China is massively invested in Spain, both economically and politically. In the UK we are aware of the Russian oligarchy and Russian money operating here, well it’s the same in Spain, but for them it’s the Chinese. They also have a big Chinese population (following the money) not least as a result of Spain’s “Golden Visas” and where is the money the Chinese have been following? Catalunya – Who does the EU as a trading block court? China.
It follows, politically, that the EU will back the Chinese because of the lovely moolah and that China keeps Spain from being a financial basket case and yet another EU headache.
China spoke out against both Catalunya’s independence and Scotland if you recall, and for the same reasons. Don’t give other uppity natives ideas and don’t get economically stronger and force us into renegotiating our plunder. Sounds familiar eh? Scotland being plundered and her assets used as a political pawn. Which is why we never hear any backing from anyone not the EU, not other Independent states, nada.
It’s a domestic issue. We’ll get plundered until we stop it, then they’ll follow the money and come to us straight away. But while they can plunder they won’t pay.
I could go on and cover Russia, Macedonia, Ukraine, PetroChem, drug and arms trades – but best stop here.
*I used seccessionisms and not “Independence” just for brevity of parsing sentences.
Westminster holds all the cards bar four of them, but what they fail to realise is it’s a game of cheat, it’s our turn, it’s aces and we’ve got them all. We’re oot. Game over.
yesindyref2 says:
24 March, 2018 at 3:02 pm
Westminster holds all the cards bar four of them, but what they fail to realise is it’s a game of cheat, it’s our turn, it’s aces and we’ve got them all. We’re oot. Game over.”
Its a war of brainwashing though, from that dragon.
It doesn’t bear thinking about it but ofcourse our imperial masters do.
Somehow, both the red and blue tories, Crash Gordon to Strong and Stable Teresa, have convinced enough UK voters that England cant afford to pay for their kids uni and college,
But same red and blue tories have successfully convinced enough UK voters that teamGB needs two giant aircraft carriers, say £6+bn each.
No other EU nation thinks it needs aircraft carriers. And yet uni and college is free in all these EU nations.
As beeb gimp attack propaganda goes, all of the above is a pretty spectacular triumph of tory BBC propaganda, successfully brainwashing millions of people to vote completely against their own interests.
And all of this just another driver behind UK gov dragons trying to start a war with Russia, beginning as ever with via their beeb gimp network.
@Yesindyref2
I’m sure they’re aware of two of those aces. They’re in for an awfy shock when they discover the other two. 🙂
The Tories, the DUP, Cambridge analytics and dodgy deals all round.
link to opendemocracy.net
The strange phenomenon of Scotland’s oil resources:
@Robert J Sutherland,
You have an odd idea of “static”. I don’t count people being battered at polling stations static. I don’t count elected leaders being imprisoned without trial static. I count these as serious issues within an organisation WE wish to join.
Static ? Jeez.
link to thenational.scot
The Graun tories simply did not report yesterdays demo in Scotland’s capital city but they do go Saturday headline mental over a demo, gun control, on another continent, thousands of miles away from teamGB.
link to archive.is
Channel 4 is moving to Glasgow simply to remain within the EU when we vote Yes, and EngWaland Wales drifts off into oblivion.
The ‘Ultra’ Cartoonist does it again.
This ‘Ultra’ Guinness drinker salutes him.
That ‘Ultra’ Nationalist Campbell isn’t paying him enough.
Wotsat you say?
He doesn’t get paid?
That Dick Leonard will get the Union on to the Bath Ultra Winger.
He’s good at Union Stuff you know, or so he keeps telling us.
@geeo 1:08pm
Love it to be a simple court case, but which court? A Scottish Court under Scots Law, I doubt it.
Domestically it’s going to end up at the Supreme Court is it not? In which case, how do they ‘Rule’ never mind the issue of Parliamentary Sovereignty and the English legal system it will come under?
The best any court can do is give a ‘judgement’ on the matter – an opinion on laws as enacted. They can’t make them and they cannot hold Parliament to account. This is simply because it becomes a constitutional issue and every legal bod and their dug has said they wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole (but they would give an opinion for a fee, of course!)
It goes like this.
Court : Is of the opinion, based on laws currently enacted, Scotland has the right of xyz
Westminster: Well, breaking news chaps, we’re just enacting new legislation which says Scotland does not have the right.
Scotland: Ah but we had the right when the case was heard.
Court: What Scotland said…
Westminster: Ah yes but it’s ex-Post Facto – comes into effect last week.
Scotland : Wait. What?
Court: *Shrugs – What Westminster said…
Scotland: How can you let that happen Court?
Court: Well, it’s the law. Anyway this seems a political matter and outwith our jurisprudence, perhaps you chaps would like to take this argument outside?
The best Scotland could get from a court case (that will be a long shot) is a moral victory from the judgement and opinions raised in a Court. It won’t make anything happen.
Political is the people. Hold a referendum, win it. No court, no law, no agreement required (nice to have it though, certainly) Then let the political and constitutional stramash begin. Maybe we’ll come up smelling of roses, maybe not. Yes, an air of legitimacy from a court judgement would be a pretty flower to hold, but ultimately Independence is taken, never given.
I’m just suggesting (in my opinion) there is no sanctuary in the law, only in ourselves.
@Marker Post
Here is the amount of money Better Together spent using Experian no doubt for their Patriot Database. They also spent funds with both Facebook and Google for advertising, so to did Yes Scotland.
£14,645.70 19/08/2014 Overheads and general administration Experian
£14,645.70 23/07/2014 Unsolicited material to electors Experian
£14,645.70 24/06/2014 Overheads and general administration Experian
£8,787.42 24/09/2014 Overheads and general administration Experian
£6,000.00 19/08/2014 Overheads and general administration Experian
Jack collatin says:
24 March, 2018 at 4:13 pm
Channel 4 is moving to Glasgow simply to remain within the EU when we vote Yes, and EngWaland Wales drifts off into oblivion
There’s as much chance of Channel 4 moving to Glasgow as there is the owner of this blog appearing on any beeb gimp network politics show, say on the Vote Tory Ligger Neil show, BBC2, nightly, on the couch, next to ferocious red and blue toryboys like Mike Portillo, who says his mum was a Scot.
Beeb gimp tory propaganda only varies from Channel 4 tory propaganda in that one has adverts.
She really ought to look more like Ruth as its her place and free speech that Mike is fighting for not just Nicola and the rest. But its good on the portraiture of Labour as irrelevant to anything important. In fact Im surprised you think that Daft Dickie could actually recognise a dragon if he saw one
Its certainly not the cuddly Welsh dragon from a couple of weeks ago!
@Macart
Shhh, don’t tell ’em!
This will definitely be of interest to those following the Cambridge/Facebook story.
Facebook and others
opposed to a legal obligation to be clear about what data they collect and sell on
opposed to any user opt out
link to archive.is
Iain Mhor.
What planet are you on ?
Any court in the world, when asked to affirm where sovereignty lays in Scotland, can ONLY SAY ONE THING.
It is with the People of Scotland.
That is a constitutional fact as well. It says so in the very Act and Treaties of Union itself.
Again, a legal slam dunk.
It is a formality to then declare Scotland has ended the Union as a result of WM subjugating the Sovereign will of the Scottish people.
We are not a region seeking independence from a parent nation, we are merely looking to end the Union with a PARTNER nation.
A simple provable breach of contract is all that is required in law.
Any and every court in the world would look at our case and be compelled by law to rule in our favour.
Which is exactly why WM will back down on our every demand, from the 111 EU power grab, to our timing for indyref2, complete with Section 30 and EA 2.
You have absolutely not given a single reason why either a Scottish Court, or an international court, or even the SC would refuse to rule Scots people ARE sovereign.
Would you like to have another attempt, rather than your rambling, incoherent pish from last time ?
Facebook and others
I’m use Facebook and they gave up asking me for my phone numbers.
Why would Facebook want your phone number?
Other than selling it to who ever it is that wants to cold call me indyref1, then indyref2, to convince me to vote tory and NO Thanks, obvs.
Because that campaign cold caller can maybe match my politics to his, as he examines my FaceBook activity, what he’s bought from Facebook.
Zuckerberg’s net worth is now $70 billion. Not sure if that’s the USA’s 100 million is a billion or the European 1000 million is a billion.
link to independent.co.uk
All that is actually very funny, if only because a lot of it is revenue that used to pore into the pockets of a few tax evading billionaires that own the UK press, tv etc.
And stinky olde The Graun tories can only whine about it too!
In a phone call this week from Bute House secret phone to Brussells secret phone
Hello is that you Michelle it’s Nicola form Scotland
Bojour Nikkee howzit goieeng
Fine Michelle, listen, see how you want the fishin deal kept the same during this Brexit transition phase, see before you sign up tae that gonnae demand that post Brexit you want the same deal from the UKGuv so that when we start the Independence for Scotland campaign the UK cannae bang on about us giving away Scotlands fishing rights to you guys
and that’ll leave the UK withoot a leg tae stand on
Sure thing Mon petite chou but what do we ear in Broosells get oot o zat
Well Michelle post Independence Scotland will just do the same deal with you guys except we’ll be wanting full top table seats at the EU council on everything else but we’ll do it nice and friendly like in the spirit of co operation unlike them UK lot who want everything but don’t want to pay for it then blame you guys when they don’t get everything and that’s how they ended up in this mess, or,. we could become Independent and join one o they other tradin blocks and that would be less good for you
Ohg haw hogh but you are correct my leetle daintee Scotteesh sabot and very clever indeed mademoiselle Nikkee we will do just that
OK thanks a bunch Michelle see you in a couple of weeks after the English have left, Oh and mind when I come over for the official Scottish visit to lay on all the trimmings and let’s give the barbarians a showin up on the telly
It will be ma pleasure my Bebee, a will look forward to the big kisses on the Briteesh telly, we will ave some fun and games talking about the sillee British, Ba Byee ma Sucre Bebee
@heedtracker says: 24 March, 2018 at 3:16 pm:
“Its a war of brainwashing though, from that dragon.
It doesn’t bear thinking about it but ofcourse our imperial masters do.
Somehow, both the red and blue tories, Crash Gordon to Strong and Stable Teresa, have convinced enough UK voters that England cant afford to pay for their kids uni and college,
But same red and blue tories have successfully convinced enough UK voters that teamGB needs two giant aircraft carriers, say £6+bn each.”
On that subject of BBC propaganda, anyone else noticed the recent sudden change in the BBC text news services for Scotland?
It really seems Auld Auntie Beeb, has finally succumbed to senile dementia or some other of the other age related degenerative mental health problems.
BBC Scotland seems to have lost all sense of Scottish geographic awareness not seeming to know where anything is anymore. This is coupled to a total lack of reasoned numeracy.
Auld Auntie Beeb has finally lost it.
Here is a wee sample to be going on with:-
Previously Auld Auntie Beeb began her Scottish text pages with a heading of, “Headlines”, and then, after the headlines, reported the most relevant items beginning with the Capital Edinburgh, Fife and east of Scotland. Followed by the largest city Glasgow and the West of Scotland and so on ending down in the South & Borders. All very logical and reasoned.
Now, not only does Auntie Beeb start after the headlines by reporting on The Highlands and Islands and progress to the south via Glasgow and Edinburgh in the middle, (reasonable if considered geographically rather than by most populated and important news-wise), but there the problems begin.
Auld Auntie seems to be rather vague as to where everything is in Scotland. Here’s todays items by Auntie’s sense of location.
We will miss out headlines for now and first list the areas as Auntie chose to list them:-
Highlands & Islands:-
Report on Glasgow nightclub fire.
Woman rescued from Inverness flat fire.
No Asbestos risk from Glasgow nightclub fire.
Muir Of Ord dog’s death – banned pesticide identified.
NE, Orkney & Shetland.
Report on Glasgow Nightclub Fire.
Woman rescued from Inverness flat fire.
No asbestos risk from Glasgow Nightclub Fire.
Publisher set for Aberdeen city centre return.
Glasgow & West
Elderly man ‘critical’ after city assault.
Report on Glasgow Nightclub Fire,
No asbestos risk from Glasgow nightclub fire.
Edinburgh, East & Fife.
Dunblane families join US gun Law Protest.
Crews at Glasgow Nightclub Fire for third night.
Woman rescued from Inverness flat fire.
Borders forest tourist scheme approval advised.
Tayside & Central.
Crews at Glasgow Nightclub fire for third night.
Woman rescued from Inverness flat fire.
No asbestos risk from Glasgow nightclub fire.
Women released over disabled man’s death.
South
Crews at Glasgow nightclub fire for third night.
Woman rescued from Inverness flat fire.
Forest tourism scheme approval advised.
No asbestos risk from Glasgow Nightclub Fire.
As to the Scottish News Headlines Auntie reports all of the above plus:
Ex-councillor convicted of sex assaults.
Library book overdue for 36 years.
Reward offer over Scot missing in Spain.
‘Power Grab’ protest held at Holyrood.
Horse’s head found in Lanarkshire burn.
And that headline item about the protest at Holyrood speaks about only, “hundreds of people”, circling the parliament with linked hands – now either those hundred protesters had hell of a long arms or there had to be more that mere hundreds.
Methinks Auld Auntie Beeb is becoming very, very, worried and very, very desperate these days. I wonder why?
It amazes me though, how much does Facebook charge to sign up, how much per face or book or whatever it is people do, and how much per day, year or anything? Nothing is it?
So how on earth do people think Zuckerberg can be worth $70 billion? There ain’t no such thing as a free lunch.
Hmmm.. Just realised, I was wrong earlier. In some respects Richard Leonard is asking a pertinent question, since under the Scotland Act (despite what Tory liars think), anything not explicitly reserved, is in fact devolved. So Dragon welfare is in fact the responsibility of the Scots Parliament.
Sturgeon must answer. 🙂
Iain mhor says:
24 March, 2018 at 4:14 pm
@geeo 1:08pm
Love it to be a simple court case, but which court? A Scottish Court under Scots Law, I doubt it…
Given our circumstances and the sands running low in the Brexit Egg Timer, I would immediately petition the European Court of Justice to recognise the 1707 Act of Union is a bipartite treaty between two sovereign Kingdoms, one sovereign Kingdom which in 2016 democratically rejected Brexit and wants to remain in the EU, and one sovereign Kingdom which voted to leave the EU.
The Court has the option, and I believe obligation, to recognise Scotland, (which already has a devolved Government and Scottish MEP’s don’t forget, and legal competency recognised internationally with Megrahi’s Special Court in the Netherlands, and recognised too by the UK’s Supreme Court), as a competent sovereign interlocutor. Whether recognised as a sovereign state in its own right, or recognised as a sovereign state bound in a bibartite treaty. (A bipartite treaty which Westminster has repeatedly abused), doesn’t actually matter. We will have won the right to speak and be heard.
Even if the court fudges the judgement, although I really don’t expect it would, the very possibility that Scotland could be declared a sovereign interlocutor becomes a legally competent mechanism to obstruct Michel Barnier coming to a finalised Brexit deal, because the UK Parliamentary Sovereignty he is obliged to deal with is suddenly a disputed sovereignty, and no agreement can be binding until the disputed constitutional issues are resolved.
I believe that would put Michel Barnier on the spot, and he would be obliged to compel the UK Government and the Scottish Government to reconcile our domestic constitutional issue as a matter of utmost urgency so Brexit can be concluded on its existing Article 50 timetable.
That Constitutional battle is one which Westminster cannot win.
Methinks Auld Auntie Beeb is becoming very, very, worried and very, very desperate these days. I wonder why?
Because we’re approaching the end game now Rab. Brexit’s either going to end of this UK union and tory rule of Scotland forever, unless they can defeat nae, crush indyref2, even before its announced. Losing is not an option for any of the toryboy’s beeb liggers.
If we lose this time, it will be the end of days, the fabled yoonapocalypse, a torymageddon on their Scotland region, Holyrood sold off to TravelLodge, future Lord Leonard Nobody, dancing down that juicy House of Lords corridor, arm in arm with Lord Darling of Roulanish and all the rest of some the world’s biggest professional liars and hypocrites, red or blue tory.
Anyone can do Project Fear. Wonder if that big slob Bliar McDoofuckall is hiring again soon.
…Westminster cannot win I meant to add, because the EUCJ will by that stage have already recognised Scottish Sovereignty.
Methinks Auld Auntie Beeb is becoming very, very, worried and very, very desperate these days. I wonder why?
Actually look out for Rockindkinter2 style of concern trolling across social media, especially Facebook, as still ardent YES2 voters have now really been put off the SNP lately, usually for the tory war with Russia, but ofcourse they’re still YES2 votes ofcourse but even so, its SNP bad, Sturgeon worse.
Its starting as a trickle on social media but its going to turn in to a online avalanche of dishonesty. Or just part of what it takes to keep our precious precious union.
UKOK Mother Teresa even blew the online shyster whistle last year.
link to stv.tv
@Heed “Sturgeon worse”
Heed, Sturgeon is terrible, appalling, terrifying, abominable, fearless, a real dragon not like that pretendy thing in the cartoon the UK conjured up.
Thank goodness she’s on our side.
@Iain mhor says: 24 March, 2018 at 4:14 pm:
“Love it to be a simple court case, but which court? A Scottish Court under Scots Law, I doubt it.”
The law, like sovereignty, is held by those who can enforce it.
Both do, however, ultimately belong to the people. Just ask the French aristocrats who thought they held both before the French revolution.
Ask too the Russian royals and aristocrats who also thought they had both sovereignty and the law on their side before the Russian Revolution or the Westminster Parliament, the English Royals and the English aristocrats who thought they had both over their colonies before the American war of Independence. proved they didn’t.
No legal system can be sustained if the people do not support it. Take for example the USA law on the prohibition of alcohol that saw first the rise of open gangster warfare on the streets of the USA then the open war between the gangsters and the Federal Government on the streets of the USA.
Why? Because the people were not ready to go t-total and thus the gangsters flourished – until the people demanded the and voted for a federal government to take back control.
That’s why the Catalans will win in the end and why Spain and their monarch will lose in the end. As will Scotland become independent.
As to the EU, I said, when the Catalonian thing began to build up, that the EU would probably not want to interfere but must in the end or the EU is doomed. However, think on this, what will then seek to replace the EU?
I believe the EU, like the UN, will, (reluctantly perhaps), have to take a stance or they will fail and European countries will return to being at each other’s throats with every country only then interested in its own best interests.
@RP
I believe the EU, like the UN, will, (reluctantly perhaps), have to take a stance”
Possibly not, not if the Spanish court infringes the human rights of those arrested for “rebellion” which is mostly armed and dangerous, unlike the Catalan politicians, it could go to the ECHR which is not EU based. There’s the Rule of Law the EU is forced to adhere to, but it too as member states and possibly as a union is signed up to the ECHR.
The EU is also signed up to the principle of subsidiarity, which prevents it interfering in member states own jurisdictions, which stays its hand. It’s not in an easy position as an entity, as it can’t inerfere where sovereignty is involved, or face justified accusations of acting as a unitary state, a political union which it isn’t.
@geeo 5.05pm
Well at no point did I say anything about courts ruling on the sovereignty of Scots, so that might be why I didn’t give a reason either way. Also, I’m not sure where this bit happened “Every road (except one) leads to a court affirmation of Scots Sovereign power being with the People of Scotland, and proving that Sovereignty has been subjugated by WM, which would clearly be a clear breach of the very Act and Treaties of Union itself, thus ending the Union in a courtroom”
I could get behind a court judging that the people of Scotland are Sovereign. That doesn’t need a court to affirm. People do that. People are sovereign. Every people not just Scots, they just need to affirm it themselves.
I really don’t understand or see remotely how being in breach of an agreement (Edinburgh) or even referendum purdah legislation is a breach of the treaties of union or somehow a clear subjucation of sovereignty. It’s not breaching any Act of Union. It’s possibly breaching purdah legislation but that hardly jumps immediately to the dissolution of the Union in a courtroom.
The threat that worries Westminster isn’t a threat of legal action (they are the law – I explained that) it’s the threat of political action, constitutional action, people action. I agree entirely, it’s a dissolution not a secession that is being sought. But there is no requirement to run straight to courts to make the big boy go away. You just leave. Or as is the case at the moment threaten to.
To cover some of what I mean:
A Treaty is not law. Our “Treaties” are international recognised treaties but they’re not law. Mutual agreements to abide by a set of principles. Promises. Vows.
Articles in the Treaty can be set into Acts and pass into Law. Acts of Union if you will. There they come under the purview of courts. Again, no court can make them, they come into being by Acts of Parliament. Westminster Parliament can enact anything it damn well pleases. Up to and including altering the Acts of Union and thereby altering the actual Treaty. It has done this in the past and can, if it chooses do it again.
So what is to be done, Run greeting to a court and they say “You’re dead right there son, that was a bad thing they did” or “yes you can indeed do whatever you propose, off you go and do it then – here’s my fee, goodbye”
Courts give an opinion, a judgement on law that’s it, that’s as far as it goes. There is no legal contract withbspecific punishments for transgression. The Treaty of Union has been amended in the past, laws were enacted which materially changed the treaty. Not a cheep. The Treaty can be changed and has been.
Ultimately, as you continually pointed out and as I agree, it is a constitutional issue and therefore – here is the important part – entirely outwith the jurisprudence of any court. It’s a political matter. It is a political declaration to withdraw from a treaty or declare independence. You don’t go to a court and say fine them, or make them do something like dissolve the Union or withdraw from the Treaty “by order of the court”
That’s the way law works to govern the little people. It doesn’t cover political will. You don’t issue a suspended sentence to an entire people by order of the court because of a constitutional issue (well you could try, but you’ll have bad time of it)
We are in agreement that all it takes is for the people of Scotland do declare independence or withdrawal from a treaty, via a vehicle of their choice (Scottish Parliament) and if they carry the majority of the people with them, it’s done.
Then you just have to enforce it. That is another issue where you may then go looking for assistance, appeal to the moral legitimacy of your actions through courts and international countries and see if anyone backs you up.
If they don’t back you up and you have no power to enforce it you’re banjoed. Ask Palestine. All the courts of the day can’t make Israel come to heel over International Laws and Treaties. (I do hope that is not anti-semitic, or I’m in the pokey with pug-dug man!)
I don’t question your passion at all, but I do wonder if you have ever had experience of the law and courts of law. If you think you can run to them and they will just “simply” rule in your favour against a big bad boy; then you have a serious shock awaiting you next time you try and fight a parking ticket, never mind defend your inalienable democratic sovereign right to self determination.
More bluster from you Iain Mhor.
So, according to you, if WM says fuck off, we as sovereign Scots have zero recourse !!
Behave yersel man.
It is Scots Law which enshrines our particular Sovereign power, so of course, if a non Scots Law body (WM) threatens our sovereign rights, the Scots Law court is the natural place to have it affirmed, and send a wee reminder of it’s everlasting potency.
If WM says “fuck your sovereign power, we do not care” what do you think will happen ?
Revolution ?
No, we will take our right to decide to a Courtroom, to PROVE we have been wronged, and that very act of affirmation WILL signal the end of the Union as it stands.
Tell me iain, where else can we affirm our sovereign power, if WM refuses to accept it’s very existence ?
Please do tell ?
Michael Russell has publicly shown his intellectual rigour, comprehension of diplomatic intricacies and strong personal dedication to Scotland over many years. Cometh the man to meet the need for guiding Scotland through the brexit thornbush …
That’s the sort of Herald headline we need to see at times, and the rest of Scotland as well:
“Scotland needs independence to realise full potential, says Nicola Sturgeon”
link to archive.is
@breeks and Robert Peffers.
Well said re sovereignty and the courts.
Maybe Iain mhor should have read before respinding to me..!
I can say with 100% confidence that no Scottish, UK or international court will ever rule that the pretendy “sovereignty” of Scots is supreme over Westminster.
At best it would be a fudge which will leave the Scots as impotent as they have been for the last 311 years.
But it is all theoretical as pretendy “sovereign” Scots will never put their money where their mouths are by petitioning the highest court of Scotland because their “sovereign” and “independent justice system” myths would be bust once and for all if they did.
I can say with 100% confidence that Saint Theresa is not going to give permission to Nicola to hold another referendum before Brexit has been completed.
Now that the UK is all but at war with Russia and the Scottish First Minister has stood shoulder to shoulder with Saint Theresa, I can say with 100% confidence that the establishment lawyer Nicola will not dare defy Saint Theresa and hold an illegal referendum.
Why would she and the rest of the SNP leadership want to go into exile in Belgium when they are doing fine here and at Westminster?
Before there is a flood of posters claiming that Scotland can hold an independence referendum whenever it wants to, the fact is that it has never yet done so without Westminster’s approval.
You can only prove me wrong if and when it does.
The cambridge analytica story is like hydra with tentacles spreading to downing street…
Revealed: the ties that bind Canadian data firm AIQ to Cambridge Analytica and Brexit
link to archive.is
Whistleblower alleges that electoral spending rules could have been manipulated over controversial donation and that Vote Leave ‘tried to delete key evidence’
link to archive.is
link to archive.is
“The mystery of how Vote Leave even found AIQ, a firm with just 20 staff that operated 2,300 miles away out of a cramped office above an opticians in the provincial Canadian city of Victoria, was raised by the Observer last May.
Dom Cummings, the chief strategist for Vote Leave, told this newspaper that he found the firm “on the internet”. But cached searches show that AIQ had no internet presence at that time ”
link to archive.is
Geeo, a bit harsh on Iain Mhor there? I managed to catch his drift.
Why would any court in the world, ever be asked about Scottish sovereignty anyway?
Judges don’t exist to pass opinions down. So only the UKSC perhaps may have to invert an outdated statute or three.
In the Union the laws of England and the laws of Scots are maintained in absence of a written constitution, which would clearly define British Law, if there was such a thing.
@Iain mhor
“A Treaty is not law. ”
That’s a bit simplistic, treaties (or conventions) are often put separately into law by the parties of the treaties, sometimes as simply as “ratifying” them as in the Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC). But if they are not ratified by one or both parties, the treaty or convention still exists in a political sense, and if broken can invoke action by the other party against the breaking party. Send a gunboat, or impose sanctions.
Similarly if the Treaty is enacted by both parties, the acts can be revoked, but the Treaty is still in place unless broken or also revoked, which would generally be easy in one eay, but harder in another – for instance North Korea simply revoked its signup to the NNPT back in around 2003, but the hard part is that it is still seen to be bound to it by most if not all of the other parties to the Convention.
So you have in one sense law, but in the other treaties, but even without the laws the treaty can be seen to be binding politically unless both parties agree to end the treaty – and even then other non-parties might not accept their decision.
As for law itself that only has jurisdiction within its own jurisdiction, unless specifically agreed between two different jurisdictions (that incidentally brings in the question of sovereignty and in a union, subsidiarity). For instance, France and the UK could agree that any alleged crime in the Channnel Tunnel be prosecuted in either jurisdiction or both (even though incidentally both are currently a part of a union). They could then enact that agreement in the respect parliaments. But the laws could be repealed and the agreement ended.
In the case of the UKL and Scotland many assume that the UKSC has total jurisdiction, some disagree, and it hasn’t been tested – nor is there any easy way for it to be firmly tested, just at the end of it am opinion and a judgement. Whjich of course brings us back to the Acts of Union, and before that the Treaty of Union – and any Acts passed by the Scottish Parliament before that which might still be in play – such as the 1689 Claim of Right.
There is no certainty, and for a UK Government that wants certainty on March 29th 2019, these are very perillous and uncertain times. A political conclusion may well be the best way of avoiding that problem.
And ultimately there is also no certainty that “Westminster is sovereign”.
No certainty at all.
the people are sovereign even over rock
Just found this tweet by the way that was from Murdo Fraser last week: “Good to hear Mike Rumbles saying that he will vote against the SNP’s EU Continuity Bill. At least there is one unionist left in @scotlibdems – shame on the rest.”
That’s what I like to hear. Maybe he’s one of the hidden aces, did I spell that right?
I hope every Scot with a shred of decency helps to fight this extradition order on Clara Ponsati. She is living and working in St Andrews.
Nobody on here had better tell me this is a distraction from independence, because we would be members of the EU just like Spain. It is our duty to fight this all the way even though it is again a ” reserved” matter apparently.
What good independence when we lose our morality.
Rock, Peffers, scissors. Coat.
Thepnr, thanks for those figures. What are they, though? Are they from Better Together declared accounts?
But it is so damned easy for any government department to hide expenditure. Didn’t Scottish Office expenditure under Mundell go up dramatically? Who knows what that money was spent on?
@Bob Mack
I totally agree with fighting the extradition order against Clara Ponsati that the Spanish government has issued under an EU arrest warrant.
Who has the power in Scotland to decide whether that extradition order is legal or has merit. Anyone know if it’s the Scottish Courts or the UK courts?
I suspect it will be the Scottish courts and hopefully they will do what the Belgian courts did with the warrant issued against Puigdemont and throw it out.
Just on this consitutional issue, I was re-reading this which I expect was posted by Nana last year:
link to scottishconstitutionalfutures.org
Note particularly the relative arguments about the applicability of:
1. A ‘unitary state’
2. A ‘union state’
or
3. A ‘quasi-federal’ [state]
McHarg started as netural when she helped found SCFF by which time she’d been involved in a similar discussion underlining her fairly neutral position on these alternatives, but moved over to YES.
The BBC have eventually decided to report the latest on what is happening in Catalonia, I’ve not archieved the link because there is a video you might want to watch.
link to bbc.co.uk
Bob Mack at 858pm,
The behaviour of Spain is shocking. It is no longer a democracy, and should be shunned globally. It alone, and NOT brexit, will be the end of the EU. I just wonder if the reason the EU is not acting is because behind the scenes Fascist Spanish Prime mInister Rajoy, is threatening the EU, that if they do anything, then Spain will take back Gibraltar by force upon brexit. This might explain the lack of comment by the Tory liars in Westminster.
Of course, it is also interesting to note the complete blanket news blackout by the mainstream media regarding the atrocious things being done to the republic of Catalunya, perpetrated by its neighbour, Spain.
Now, if news reports are correct, we are about to witness an academic (a citizen of Catalunya) from the University of St.Andrews being forcibly deported to the Spanish fascist state for imprisonment without trial for her political views. European arrest warrants were created to arrest terrorists. Fascist Spain, is making a mockery of the EU, democracy and the concept of law.
Meanwhile the EU sits back and does nothing. It is just like the rise of fascism we saw once before in Europe – something the EU was meant to prevent.
@Marker Post
Yes they are from the Better Together declared accounts for their spending in the referendum.
The first link is to the Electoral Commission webpage where you can download all the details of expenses submitted by those required to do so as registered persons. It’s a CSV file that can be viewed in a spreadsheet and the download link is on the bottom right of the page.
link to tinyurl.com
The second link below will take you directly to a download of the data if you prefer to use that, the file is called “results”.
link to tinyurl.com
Bob Mac 8.58
Well said Bob it is important the we tell Spain to fuck off.
Apologies to gentle folk for the cussin.
We should do all we can to help anyone from Catalonia.
Dont buy Spanish produce dont holiday in Spain. Dont take electricity from them. Dont bank with them.
Spain is a fascist state end of fuck them.
Apologies again to god fearing folk.
@the PNR,
Scotland has good history in this. It was the first country which refused to return the runaway slave of an English owner.
The judge stated Scots law was not consistent with denying a slave his freedom. Quote “Not in this Kingdom” Perth Sheriff court 1780?
These charges are purely political and without substance.
Given that Finland knows all about tyranny, as they celebrate 100 years of independence from Russia, I do wonder if they ‘accidentally, made sure the Catalan president couldn’t be found before he left for Belgium by ‘unknown means”, so the fascist arrest warrant from fascist Spain couldn’t be acted upon.
Good old Finland.
I must say, for many years, I thought Spain had really turned its back on its fascist past, but now we see, it is right there, and has been let loose by Mariano Rajoy. Not a nice country. Quite ugly really.
@Robert Louis
You may be right. As far as I can remember there was one senior Finnish MP who spoke out against Spain over their abuse during the referendum and wanted the EU to make a stance against the violence we all saw.
No such luck, but like Finland Scotland too through the SNP were another of the few voices to be heard in support of the Catalan government.
We’ve had months of calm that now seems to be coming to an end due to the actions of the Spanish government in arresting or issuing warrants for 25 pro Independence leaders including as Bob Mack pointed out, one who lives in Scotland.
It’s about time those in the media started saying something about this atrocity never mind those in the EU parliament.
O/T to this one but related to one recently posted.
I was up in Glasgow this afternoon for a few things. I was walking up a street in the city centre and a couple of lads came out of a pub and a bit boisterous. Nothing wrong with that but coming towards them was a black couple who were just out like everybody else but one of the lads said to the black couple quite in their face that they were happy.
There wasn’t anything racist mentioned, nor was anything that attributed to the couples race but why did that lad do it and would they have done it to a local, white couple? I’m not from Glasgow, outside of it in an area where there isn’t many non-whites and that situation seemed to me very odd and I can’t see the motivation for that lad’s behaviour anything else other than because of the couples race.
At the time, the first thought that crossed my mind was that it was obvious from the lads accent that they were Home Counties/Southern England. I don’t know whether the black couple came from here or where visiting but if they were, they woulnd’t know the difference in accent and think they were Scottish.
Later on, I remembered the article on here about the Met Police Hate crime and this struck me that this afternoon’s incident fits perfectly in that.
It’s obvious if the black couple had made a complaint or somebody made one on their behave, these lads would laugh it off and said it was joke and there would be no way that the intent that it was driven by hate could be proven.
Of course you can argue that it wasn’t racist and dismiss it as such but if I was walking down there with my partner I wouldn’t be happy with somebody in my face or hers making comments and I doubt anybody else would.
I had only witnessed this because I was in a random spot but is it possible that down in London where there is a lot of non-whites that this may be more widespread and be the cause of the Met Police directive mentioned on here?
I do agree Bob Mack. 100%.
This Catalonian suppression is a breach of many of the clearly defined principles of European Union.
It must be called out.
They are trying to extract academic professionals on charges of rebellion (by exercising progressive democracy that their fascist-feudal-constitution refuses to allow).
The political-classes silence is deafening..fearing upset caused to Spain. Complicity, pathetic.
But as soon as an old rift can be opened up, one people understand from biased victorious history (Russia, Islam, China, Scotland, Ireland, the Left) the traditionalists dive in and cry out.
Fear laced with demons, missiles, dragons, ivory-towers and walled cities.
All over the world, our established system of government has promoted inequality right under our noses, some inequality is financial some is democratic, only now, everywhere, it stinks.
Oh dear I asked for it.
I won’t namecheck everyone but I have read it all.
Oh just one thing @geeo I never intimated we had no recourse, the opposite – we have recourse, I just wouldn’t choose the law.
Yes, an international court could decide to have a look at The Acts and Treaties of Union and judge that Scotland is an equal partner in a bi-partite union. All well and good.
We know this, it would be an affirmation of it and give warm moral glow. Then what. They won’t wipe our eyes and dirty face with a licked hanky and go and have a word with the bad boys mum to give us our ball back. Rather they’ll just say “As you aver, we believe it is so, now what are you going to do about it?”
It will not, in the words of Father Jack, “be an ecumenical matter” it will be, in the words of the international courts and councils “a domestic matter”
Treaties are vows and well we know all about vows. Acts are laws enacted. Which may (or may not) place articles of a treaty within an act, thus giving it legal standing and courts jurisprudence over the matter.
Others mentioned this. I’ve mentioned it elsewhere ‘laws must be enforced’ If you make the laws and have the power to enforce them, well you’re a nation state. Importantly, even if the rest of the world disagrees with you.
Now in the interests of harmony, I agree, there may be domestic laws breached. Perhaps even articles of treaty. There may be constitutional questions to be answered and they can all be taken to a court to give a judgement. An interesting time that will be had by all and very instructive it will be. Lucrative to the judiciary also. Boring to.much of the electorate who just want to vote or not. They know what they want, law doesn’t come into it for them.
I present as my evidence of this : “Brexit”
Voted first, legal ramifications : “Didn’t cross my mind guv’nor, sort it later” This, still, amazingly, was accepted and pushrd forward by Westminster and the EU. Yeah, courts of law did well there then.
Now, let’s say whichever court – Scots, Supreme, International – comes down in judgememt against Scots self determination. We go home and cry because it’s over? You want to leave the question of self determination to a court of law? I wouldn’t want a court to decide the colours on a zebra crossing! (thank’s Douglas!)
Power is vested in the people always was, always will be. People overthrow governments all the time.
So, Scotland holds a referendum and carries the day unlawfully or lawfully. For reasons affirmed in law or not affirmed in law. The result is identical: Scotland demands independemce (or free pokey hats for everyone, doesn’t matter)
What carries the weight. The legal rulings or the will of the populace? I’ve mentioned in regard to OBFA about Bad Law.
That is where it is deemed not enforceable – So a judgement on a matter of law, which is disagreed with by millions of people is made on a bad law. Not a bad judgement, just a judgement of a bad law. If the judiciary get a sniff it may be a bad law they will wash tgeir hands and call it not judiciable and walk away. The only outcome will be an attempt to enforce the bad law or capitulate. Enforce a bad law, well good luck with that if the judiciary have washed their hands.
That would be a police state then, or possibly worse, a military junta.
We just need to vote Yes. We just need to say “Those are our powers” Then deil tak the hindmost. We say them through our representatives, who we invested with the power to speak for us, via the parliament we chose to represent us.
That’s the way. Don’t fight the law, fight the lawmaker, become the lawmaker.
youtu.be/AL8chWFuM-s
@Bob Mack
Well said.
Independence is worthless if we don’t care for our friends and family. Clara Ponsati is currently resident and a valued guest.
I’m not big on being a poor host.
yesindyref2 says:
‘@Iain mhor
“A Treaty is not law. ”
That’s a bit simplistic.’
Simplistic is fine, Brexit was won by simplistic.
Anyone discussing whether the law can decide independence should be aware of the case of Western Sahara v Morocco.
The European Court ruled that western Sahara was indeed independent therefore was not obliged to allow Morocco to do a fishing deal on its behalf with the EU.
It can be done legally.
Don’t forget the clocks go
Iain mhor..you are just dribbling pish now.
Stop it, you look stupid now.
Over 60 countries have left the British Empire, why don’t they want to come back, is it something the Empire have done, is the British Empire not a good master, do the British Empire congratulate these countries every year on their Independence,does the British Empire trade with these countries, are these countries happier not being under the control of the British Empire, do these countries make all their own decisions
It’s Scotlands turn to be one of those other countries and the British Empire won’t like it and they’ll try to stop it, but just like those other countries a way will be found and we’ll go
The only people panicky about it are those who are going to lose, the British Empire, just like they’ve lost everything else
Scotland is a good idea whose time has come and every single person who gets out there and shouts *Fuck off* at the British Empires dominion over us the better
They bought Scotland for around £10.000 they’ve had their moneys worth
Re: Fascist Spain and the EU.
link to twitter.com
Very simple do as the above says:
“Move @ClaraPonsati in to Bute House and put a Scottish Police guard on the door. Tell the Fascist Spanish government to GTF”.
Stand tall against Fascism and State Brutality.
Say Fuck You EU, EFTA for Scotland will do.
The 50% – 50% Yes vs No disappears
It’ll then be 70% Yes vs 30% No
Because the Yes Indy, No EU will be onboard.
Also the Fishermen and Farmers will be onboard.
And us Yes Indy, Yes EU are getting rightly pissed off at the EUs inaction.
The 30% Red, White, Blue and Orange will never be changed.
Look the fuckers in the eye and see who blinks first.
Let’s see what British Labour in Scotland and the Trades Union Movement (the supposed inheritors of the torch of the International Brigades) do (although by taking money from Spanish in sponsorship I think we already know).
“No Pasaran”
I’m totally baffled by the lack of any voice or action from the EU in relation to what is happening in Spain. Evil flourishes etc.
There is no way that the Scottish Government should be acceding to any request to extradite Clara Ponsati if it is in their power to refuse.
As for BBC report, as per usual, no in depth analysis of the reported drop in support for independence, based on a small sample (mainly from Barcelona which is known to be less pro independence than rural Catalonia). It wasn’t a simple binary poll. The results include questions relating to support for federalism as well as independence and the status quo, broken down by party political allegiance. It’s not made clear in the BBC report where the numbers trumpeting a drop In support for independence come from. But that’s how the BBC operate. Selective information with no analysis will keep the average viewer/reader in ignorance of the facts.
forward later on.
— then an arrest warrant arrive and he will be taken into custody. Fantasy politics.
Robert Louis :@ 9.15pm
“”European arrest warrants were created to arrest terrorists.””
No, they were created to streamline/standardise the extradition process between EU countries of criminal suspects or sentenced person (i.e. already convicted after standing trial) to the issuing state. It is any criminal or alleged criminal not just terrorists or alleged terrorists.
It is to be hoped the UK will stand firm and not comply with the warrant given that no trial seems to be on the horizon for any of the people already in custody or for those Spain is trying to extradite from various EU countries.
Nicola Sturgeon
?
Verified account
@NicolaSturgeon
36m36 minutes ago
More Nicola Sturgeon Retweeted Boris Johnson
Someone’s rattled…Nicola Sturgeon added,
Boris Johnson
Verified account
@BorisJohnson
Observer/C4 story utterly ludicrous, #VoteLeave won fair & square – and legally. We are leaving the EU in a year and going global #TakeBackControl #GlobalBritain
Very Clever.
@yesindyref2 says at 10:30 pm & 11:30pm
🙂
@yesindyref2
Re:Treaties and law. That was a fair summary and riposte to my simplification.
Now we’ll find how they both actually work with the extraditions being sought. What an education we are receiving, sadly.
Re: Fascist Spain and the EU again.
The below Quotes from Edmund Burke are quite pertinent:
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” ? Edmund Burke.
“Those who don’t know history are doomed to repeat it.” ? Edmund Burke
“Liberty does not exist in the absence of morality.” ? Edmund Burke
“Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little.” ? Edmund Burke
“No Pasaran”
@Iain mhor says: 24 March, 2018 at 7:35 pm:
“It’s not breaching any Act of Union.”
You stated the above but here’s a point often not realised even by lawyers. The Treaty of union is the agreement to unite and is signed up to by both of the only two kingdoms that form the United Kingdom. This is the legally binding document, contract if you like, between the two parties.
The respective Acts of the respective Kingdom’s parliaments are internal acts of each respective kingdom’s parliaments and the Kingdom of England sat and put itself into permeant recess but the Scottish parliamentarians never sat and put the old Scottish Parliament into recess because if the people had got hold of them they would have strung them up. They went into hiding and all that happened was town criers proclaimed around the streets of the capital that the parliament was over.
It was thus only legally prorogued and that was why this happened:-
link to youtube.com
Note she correctly says the old Scottish Parliament was, “adjourned”, and that means it is NOT in recess but the term Prorogue is defined:-
prorogue – verb – past tense: prorogued; past participle: prorogued.
discontinue a session of (a parliament or other legislative assembly) without dissolving it.
Example – “James prorogued this Parliament, never to call another one”.
In the example James was free to do so but didn’t call another.
Prorogued leaves the parliament adjourned and it can be reconvened.
Which is just academic anyway for the legal wrangle is that the terms of the treaty are broken and well beyond repair.
If there were any doubts over the many times Westminster has broken the Treaty the set-up of devolution as it stands today is clearly not running the United kingdom as a union of two equally sovereign kingdom partners.
It is running as four countries and England, (the country), has no elected as such parliament and is thus the de facto Parliament of the Country of England acting as the overlords of the three other countries but claims it is the United Kingdom Parliament.
I wouldn’t like to be the lawyer attempting to justify that before an international court of human rights.
in my post above the ? should have been –
Re Clara Posati…
Agree 100% this lady should be given refuge in Scotland..
Anyone hearing about what we can do to help!
And yes this is about our independence.
Our independent legal system…
But more than that….we are the people, no law can be enforced without us,if we say no….she stays.
……………..
Re…The Treaty of the Union conversation.
I don’t know if it will create more heat than light!
But..
It is The Treaty of the Union, which gives Acts of the UK Parliament the force of law.
It’s the Treaty that’s the problem!
@Jockanese Wind Talker
Wonder if I’ll remember to do it the right way around in autumn, after Indy Ref 2 has been announced.
Another classic “toon” Chris. Nice one.
Looking at WoS twitter, no surprise regarding the Catalan situation. FRANCO exists in European Spain. The EU+Spain= total embarrassment. (I am genuinely confused)I thought Spain was the answer on the horizon if it went tits up at the next Indy ref.
Boris the fuckwit rattled by Sturgeon= Boris is still and always will be an inbred fuckwit.( look at his stance, he cracks one off at pictures of Winny Churchill “A Sad Bastard Churchill wannabee”= TWAT.
Should be happy cause the wife and I have just retired, maybe its time to switch off from politics and enjoy ignorant bliss? mmmm maybe not, we’ll wait until Scotchland becomes independent, then the world can GTF.
Its a strange feeling I have, I have always helped my fellow being in any way I can, ( an old hippy) but I must confess with each passing day I despise Brexiteers and Indy No voters, to the extent that they no longer exist .
Sad days indeed.
Apologies Rant Over.
@louis.b.argyll says: 24 March, 2018 at 8:19 pm:
“Why would any court in the world, ever be asked about Scottish sovereignty anyway?”
Simples! the answer is yes – and it will be done when a Scottish government at Holyrood is mandated to do so by a clear majority of the still legally sovereign people of Scotland.
@Yesindyref2
Remember dads, ssshhhhhhhh. 🙂
@Iain mhor says:-
“A Treaty is not law.”
Oh! Yes it is. It is a signed and witnessed agreement by two or more parties and that makes it a contract under Scots law. Under Scottish jurisdiction an agreement sealed with a handshake is a legally binding contract. I kid you not:-
link to allmediascotland.com
@Macart
Absolutely no way I’ll tell them Davidson is one of our secret aces.
Oh.
@louis.b.argyll says: 24 March, 2018 at 9:00 pm
Rock, Peffers, scissors. Coat.
“Rock?”
As Frank Sinatra said when someone mentioned Bing Crosby, “Who he”?
@Yesindyref2
DON’T TELL THEM YOUR NAME PIKE!
@Thepnr says: 24 March, 2018 at 9:05 pm:
“I suspect it will be the Scottish courts and hopefully they will do what the Belgian courts did with the warrant issued against Puigdemont and throw it out.”
As the lady is on Scottish soil then she is under Scottish Legal jurisdiction and the last time I looked St Andrews was still here in Fife. This could be a trigger for some real big confrontations and could perhaps swing a quantity of votes our way.
Gary45%
As one old hippy to another, it’s cool man, a rant does you good.
“Its a strange feeling I have, I have always helped my fellow being in any way I can, ( an old hippy) but I must confess with each passing day I despise Brexiteers and Indy No voters, to the extent that they no longer exist.
Sad days indeed.”
It will be alright in the end, if it’s not alright it’s not the end: John Lennon.
Re Carla Ponsati.
Anyone still doubt Westminster, Madrid and possibly Istanbul are potentially a new fascist axis?
When the UK is out of the EU and Spain is on the way out for violation of human rights, those three authoritarian anti-democratic states will be willing bedfellows.
If another anti-fascist war ensues, this time we will be on the wrong side.
@geeo says: 24 March, 2018 at 10:50 pm:
“Iain mhor..you are just dribbling pish now.
Stop it, you look stupid now.”
Aye! Weel! Ye saved me the bother, geeo.
A Treaty is a signed and witnessed contract and is enforceable by law.
Yes there are problems in that the laws of Scotland and the laws of England are different and independent as would be the law of the international authority but — as long as it is illegal in Scotland then Scots law prevails.
Look what happened when the USA, UK, Scotland and the international courts all claimed jurisdiction over the Lockerbie bombing.
Scots law was ruled to be used but I believe that Scots law let itself and Scotland down on that occasion.
Apologies, for the CAPS Rev, BUT..
BBC NEWS PLACING CRICKET CHEATING STORY ABOVE GUN CONTROL PROTESTS, who gives a fuck! Sick Tory scum.
@Jockanese Wind Talker says: 24 March, 2018 at 11:07 pm:
““Move @ClaraPonsati in to Bute House and put a Scottish Police guard on the door. Tell the Fascist Spanish government to GTF”.
Stand tall against Fascism and State Brutality.”
The trouble is, Jockanese Wind Talker, that it will not be the Spanish police knocking on the Bute House door demanding to arrest the good lady.
It will be the English, police or the English Security Service with an EU warrant to serve on the lady and Bute house does not have the protection of diplomatic immunity.
But there are many foreign embassies and foreign consulates in Edinburgh. Even more than when I was a boy and delivered their newspapers.
Actually the Embassies and consulates I would like to see in Edinburgh are those of England, Wales and a united Ireland, and, of course, that of an independent Catalonia.
Will there be sanctions against Australia following the ball tampering?
How can Russia be blamed?
@robert peffers
I don’t mind being schooled by anyone here. I reread and disect anything pointed out the better to learn where I may be in error.
I will say that the Articles of Union basically just hand over, or shall I say abrogate almost all terms and conditions to the Parliament of Great Britain to amend as it sees fit.
So basically as I said, the Parliament at Westminster can do whatever it likes. Up to and including amending or revoking as it sees fit. Unless the honorouble members for Scotland object of course. Put it to the vote – oops.
Given that a Treaty under Scots law is a legally binding contract that’s all fine and well, but where do any of the acts, articles or treaties of union, say Westminster Parliament must consult Scotland on Brexit, devolved matters or whether it must seek a Section 30 (a section 8 aye mibbe!)
All these arguments fall under domestic laws enacted by the Parliament of Great Britain as they saw fit.
The only argument I can see to put forward is that Scotland’s parliament was reconvened and has an equal legal and political standing as the Westminster Parliament. ie: the Westminster Parliament is the Parliament of England, Holyrood is Scotland’s and the “Parliament of Great Britain” was dissolved under devolution. Nice thought. Don’t think I’m on a winner there.
It’s still my opinion that all this is a political matter and law and courts are a sideshow. I won’t be so controversial as to say irrelevent though. I may well be utterly wrong.
Can’t see quite how, but none so blind and all that.
I’ve lived under a few regimes, from apartheid S.A, to Arabic Nations, European states, the Far East, UK colonies where UK law does not run and federal US states (ha!) and without exception,my experience is : don’t rely on laws and treaties. The real world out there operates like Megacity One’s Judges. The writ is “I am the Law” So you better have a big stick and be prepared to use it. With luck we will have the majority of the voting population of Scotland – That should about do it.
Anyway, I’n choking thread and boring people probably, though I find it interesting so no more from me. But I’ll take any criticisms on board.
Iain mhor is dribbling still.
There is NO parliament of England. WM is the uk parliament.
Seems you are incapable of listening.
Still waiting on your action plan if WM tells Scotsgov to fuck off with indyref2, perform the power grab, then ignore the Holyrood LCM to pass the brexit bill ?
According to you, we have no recourse !
Utter pish.
Take it easy, people, we’re all on the same side. I talk more pish than most but I don’t like to see good people insulting each other.
Inclusion is the name of Scotlands game, free speech and the right to an opinion for all.
Except for the usual suspects, of course.
🙂
@Iain mhor says: 25 March, 2018 at 2:13 am:
“I will say that the Articles of Union basically just hand over, or shall I say abrogate almost all terms and conditions to the Parliament of Great Britain to amend as it sees fit.”
Well then, Iain, here’s just another wee fact:-
Each individual, “Article”, in an agreement is, in itself, a legal contract that is agreed upon by the partners.
The point that I have continued to make here on Wings is that Westminster is NOT just operating as the Parliament of Great Britain & Northern Ireland. If it were it would not be directly running England and devolving powers to Scotland, Wales & N.I.
It is legally a union of only two kingdoms and the Kingdom of England is made up of three countries but Scotland is both a kingdom and a country.
Thus Westminster should be run as, and for, two equally sovereign kingdoms and as a kingdom England is one unit. How it runs its three countries is its business and not Scotland’s for in the context of a united Kingdom Scotland is a partner while both Wales & N.I. are English Kingdom dominions.
If you look at the original preamble to the Treaty it actually refers to, “and dominions”, but the likes of Canada, the 13 original American states, Australia and New Zealand were all English colonies – not dominions – at the time of the treaty being negotiated. The reference was to the dominions of the Kingdom of England were Wales and Ireland.
Yet Westminster is operating as if Scotland were not a partner kingdom but is also treating England as a country and not a kingdom. It is running the country of England as an individual country directly and the Westminster ministries are serving the country of England directly.
That means Westminster, using EVEL runs England as the Master Country and the powers it devolves are the sovereign power of England that Westminster has assumed. Yet Westminster calls itself the Parliament of the United Kingdom.
To put that brutally truthfully Westminster is the only parliament that the country of England has and by treating Scotland like Wales and N.I. then Westminster is the only kingdom and there is no partner kingdom in the union.
i.e. there cannot be a United Kingdom unless there are two kingdoms in union. If there is only Westminster as The United Kingdom Parliament running the country of England Where are the two partner kingdoms in union?
@ Sma 2:48
I concur. 🙂
As an aside, I’d like to see Robert P write a definitive article on Scotland’s sovereignty and it’s history and host it somewhere online in order that it be easily retrieved, digested and shared where and when required.
Hi geeo at 2:34 am.
You typed,
“There is NO parliament of England. WM is the uk parliament.”
I see Robert Peffers has addressed your assertion in a comment between yours and this one so no need for me to type further.
Hi Wull,
I agree, because I’ve got a worse memory than a goldfish and I could use something complete for reference.
I hope you and yours are well, my friend.
🙂
Iain mhor @ 2.13
Well FWIW,I don’t think yer dribbling pish.
This is where Robert and I see thing’s slightly differently..
…..Almost….
Westminster because it’s not bound by a Constitution can’t be told by the Court’s,anything, other than their view/judgement on Law’s that Westminster have already written.
Westminster to date have written no Law that facilities the dissolution of the Treaty of the Union…. An Article 50,if ye like.
While the EU recognized that there was no means for a Country in a Treaty with the EU to leave a few years back,and so
it (EU) wrote Article 50.
Westminster never felt the need to do the same.
Funny that!!!
So I would argue that the Courts can’t rule on a Law that hasn’t been written yet!
While other,if not most international Treaty agreements can have disputes decided on by the Court’s this is usually written in to the document itself.
What makes this one different is that, it is in and of itself the Foundling Document of the UK Parliamentary system.
Its a catch 22,change the Treaty and that Parliament as it is currently constructed is no more (yay)…
Thats what all the continuer state,rUK stuff was partly all about too,if Scotland left,Westminster wanted to keep the same system of government in place for England Wales and N. Ireland!
The one thing that Westminster isn’t allowed to do is to dilute it’s own power’s permanently.
Which is also why,the vow could never be kept,Holyrood could never be made permanent “in law”, and there was talk before Indy ref 1 in the Lords of not letting a Yes vote stand.
So round and round the argument goes….From a legal stand point.
Court’s will only answer,as narrowly as possible, the question that they are asked,and they also get to choose IF they should be actually getting asked it in the first place.
So,while I agree, there may be some questions around us striking down the Treaty that will go before a Court.
The question of the Treaty itself will never get there,and while the Treaty exists as a live document and no law had been written empowering any court to rule otherwise.
Westminster rule’s.
Unless and until…. Back on board with Robert here….
The people of Scotland or England say otherwise
But they can only do that through their political voice!
And that they do have the Legal right to do.
That’s the bit’s Court’s can rule on,the where,why and how of a vote.
But what they will do with a Yes vote….time will tell,but mibbi, just mibbi we shouldn’t be askin them?
Back at ya Sma and good morning Liz and Wings late shift crew.
@geeo
Och I didny want to do this, this is really my last.
Just read what I said. We’re on the same side here. Nothing you ascribe to me or take issue with, have I actually said (ok, written) You might think I did, but I haven’t. So that’s ok. I miss things, I misinterpret them, I have to re-read and re-evaluate. It’s the nature of forum formats that wouldn’t be a problem in a conversation. Nor do I take offence at ‘gibbering pish’ – in Scotland that’s a bona fide case of “you have failed to convince me” (in case anyone takes 3rd party offence and one of us ends up in the pokey for a hate incident! or is it crime) It’s really difficult to thrash these things out in a forum, but it’s damn interesting what falls out sometimes.
Robert, I also get what you’re saying and the important bit is “devolving powers to NI, Wales & Scotland but not England.
That’s the crux.
Right backshift over.
William Wallace @ 4.11
Good morning William, hope you are well?
And weren’t you ment to be keepin better hours!! Tut,Tut.
Who is being a bad influence?
Aye I’m lookin at you Smallaxe!
Cannae blame Sma Liz. He is a good influence 😉 It’s ah meh fault. Only misel tae blame.
William Wallace @ 4.45
Hmm
Well if I ever meet Mrs Wallace ….words will be had….let me tell ye.
There’s a campaign coming up and we will need ye fighting fit…
Seriously though take care of yersel William.
I will need to leave you two Gents to it now I’m afraid.
Good night.
@ Liz
Mrs Wallace has given up trying. I just get the look these days 😉 The raised eyebrows and pursed lips look. 🙂
I am currently searching (Winston style for Isa’s point) for the aforementioned two gentleman that you allude to. I think I’ll hae to join ya (not literally) and get myself to bed tae. One single malt for the road and that’s me done.
Good night.
Two million votes out of 5.2Million electorate. Out of a population of 7.5million. (1million? under 18 year old, non voters)Is not a majority. The Indepenistas did not win the vote. The majority voted NO. In Spain anyone who breaks the Law goes to jail. Even royalty go on trial. Spain is a democracy. The EU supports Democracy in Spain.
Russia and Spain are more democratic than the UK. Newer democracy. Spain 1978. Russia 1990. Far from Russis demanding more territory. The Russian Gov has relinquished more territory since the 1990’s. The changes in the Russian Republic since 1990’s. Has seen the right to self determination supported by Russian gov, Self governance and self determination has been upheld by the Russia Gov. There have been changes and relinquish of territories. The Russian Confederstion had 250 million pop (relatively same as the US at that time). It now has 150million pop. A dramaric drop.
The Russian pop is now 150million because Russia (has relinquished control) of territories, satellite States. To self determination. To say Russia is an expansionist nation is a lie with no credibility. Just propaganda. It always tried to protect it’s border as it was entitled to do under International Law. Especially after two major conflicts 1WW/11WW in relatively few years in recent history that devastated Russia and it’s economy. Russia saved the West in 11WW. 26Million Russians died. 1/2Million UK (US). Many problems in Russia in the recent past were caused by devastating War. The 11WW caused by inter rivalries in Eurooe between the British royal families. Q Victoria descendants. Cousins married cousins. ‘Divine right to rule’. No universal Suffrage.
Russia should be being helped to more prisoerity, not maligned. If there was any justice.in the world. The non Demicratic US/UK trying to drive the world to oblivion. Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Destroying the world economy.
In the US/UK Pollsters are illegally allowed to manipulate the vote wasting £Billions of public and private money. Cheating and illegal manipulation illegally supported by unionist Parties at Westminster. The UK/US are not democrstic. No one person one vote. Purdah broken. Bribery and corruption. At the top level of administration. The Tory/unionists are corrupt and should be put in jail. Starting with Boris Johnston who is a criminal and a liar. Along with Faraque etc. He has been illegally funding a Political Party with public money for years.Breaking electoral Laws protected by the Tory grandees. The UK is not a democracy. The Laws are not enforced by Westminster unionists. If they are not stopped they will ruin the world economy. Make the world a poorer place. They have already caused millions of death, destruction and poverty.
Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. . Save the world from Westminster illegal manipulation. Politicians acting illegally to line their own pockets with public money devaststing the economy causing death and destruction.
In the UK (US) the vote is rigged. Bought and sold by the highest bidder. The Pollsters and bad people are used to manipulate the result. Private and public money are wasted using Pollsters who manipulate the vote. Money is used (secretly) illegally to buy elections. Totally illegally but fully supported by Unionists Parties. The corruption st the heart of Westminster Gov and the non democratic British State. They cheat and lie with impunity with the collusion of the sycophant Press. Without a free and balance Ores there is no Democracy. Unionist politicians are above the Law. The Laws that they make. They keep their criminality hidden under the Official Secrets Act. Cover up. Non of these criminals ever go to jail. Their is no deterrent for their criminal low life behaviour. The system is totally corrupt.
.
Any treaty, international or otherwise may be ended or broken by either party to it. For example, the ‘UK’ could if it wanted, just leave the EU tomorrow, no agreements, no deals, no article 50. Of course the EU would be upset, trading would be stopped etc… etc.. But it wouldn’t be ‘illegal’.
The same applies to the treaty of union. a treaty is just an agreement. England or Scotland could unilaterally choose to end or dissolve the treaty of union. The other party may or may not be upset, but that is the facts.
Treaties are not magic, they don’t have special powers. For example an international trade treaty between Canada and the USA could be unilaterally ended by either party. The other side my be upset, but aside from trying in some way to seek financial redress, or ‘damages’, their is nothing that could be done.
Too many people (and surprisingly some who support independence) seem to have fallen for the British nationalist nonsense about the power of Westminster to decide everything – that is an ASSERTION, not a fact. That really isn’t how the world works. If Scotland voted to end the union, their is nothing which Westminster could do to stop it – aside from going to war and jailing all independence supporters (half the population of Scotland).
The key in all of it is a democratic free and fair vote to end the treaty. An election or referendum would suffice.
Could some folk go off topic. More appropriate. For a general rammy through the night.
Before 1990’s. Russian pop was comparable with the US. 300Million.
Now
US pop is 325Million. Russian pop is 150Million. The US is the expansionist State. The Rusdian pop gas half since the fall of the Confederation.
By comparison the US is the expansionist State. Militarily etc The US is a military treat to the world. of exemptionalism. Does not obey International Law. Break the Law with impunity. Breaks the Laws that it frames. Kills millions and devastates the world. The US is a hypocritical regime. Alliudes to democracy and freedom and does the opposite. Talks the talk but does not walk walk the walk. Actions speak louder than words.
Russian has 80 military bases in the world. The US has 800. The US spends half the taxes raised on the Military. $Trns in debt.
Since 1990’s poverty has halved in Russia. Putin is an extremely popular President. Unprecedented in the world. The US President not so popular. The US is not a democracy. The Pollsters are illegally manipulating the vote for money. The election is undemocractically sold to the nearest bidder. The electorate deceived by Westminster unionists. Those of the majority wealth illegally control the system. The UK and US are two of the most unequal societies in the world and in the most debt. The Gov are illegally killing people. They want to kill some more.
To stop them. Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. People in Scotland can change the world for the better.
Links
link to alynsmith.eu
link to theorkneynews.scot
link to imgonnasayitanyway.wordpress.com
Apache makes multi-million barrel oil discovery in North Sea
link to archive.is
Developers behind a major offshore wind farm project in the Moray Firth have taken another step towards delivering first power.
link to archive.is
link to centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk
link to rt.com
Brexit Deal: Lost Irish leverage, or UK ‘getting real’?
link to rte.ie
link to blogs.lse.ac.uk
link to thelondoneconomic.com
Brexit vote fraud
link to zelo-street.blogspot.co.uk
link to eulawanalysis.blogspot.co.uk
link to theglobeandmail.com
Brexit: the poison seeps out
link to eureferendum.com
link to thecanary.co
link to rawstory.com
It would be illegal for the UK to just leave the EU. They have signed legal responsibilities and agreement with the EU under Intrrnstionsl Law. For the UK just to leave the EU without agreement would be illegal under Law. Under Scottish/UK/EU/International Law. It could viewed as an act of aggression.
It is not a minor offence for a government to break it’s word. Lose all respect credibility and right of responsibillity. Internationally as well, especially with the dire consequences. An act of injustice An act of total betrayal and hypocrisy. Especially in the light of the fiscal cheating, being done by the UKngovernment. Appalling act of non contrition. It will bring the Wetminstrr Gov down. There is no other outcome, They are acting illegally. It just depends The timing. When. Sooner rather than later for all the damage caused.
Good morning, Nana.
Thank you for your lovely links, it’s a beautiful morning down here in the deep south of North Britain.
Kettle’s on.
🙂
Good morning Smallaxe. What a nice surprise to see you here 🙂
Have a few more links for later
Saudi deal creates a desert pong
link to archive.is
link to newsweek.com
The hawkish views of Bolton and Pompeo could mark a turning point for Trump
link to archive.is
Hi Nana,
I like this one;
Thousands protest against a ‘power grab’ by the UK government;
link to thecanary.co
😉
The manipulative greens jumping in the unionists bandwagon betraying their voters. Reneging on green policies. The 6 white, middle class wealthy men betraying and reneging. No wonder they are so unpopular. The talk the talk but do walk the walk. Or practise what they preach.
The criminal politicians who do not practice what they preach. Talk the talk but do not walk the walk. The 3rd rate rejects in Holyrood who do not believe in democracy but wasting public money.
Johnston and M15 planted the chemical in the spy house. Of that there can be no doubt. It will be kept secret under the Official Secrets Act. To distract from the Brexit mess and the ‘dodgy dossier’. The illegal M15 survelliance of Trump which he knows about. Johnston can’t get Trump on the illegal war bandwagon. Now circling the wagons,
@Smallaxe, looks like the bbc missed the March for Europe. Poor dears seem to be missing an awful lot of real news lately.
Might be a good idea if folks stopped paying them, seeing as they are incapable of providing the public with proper news.
The Tories could have been brought down on the 12 Sept 2017 EVEL vote. 8? Labour MP’s voted with the Tories. The spy would have been brought in from the cold. Not on a dubious mission. The spy would have been intact.
Do you mean some people actually pay the BBC, Nana, whit fur?
#Dafties
🙂
Aye Smallaxe that is what I’ve been led to believe.
Incredible is it not, imagine paying for a Westminster government propaganda unit.
Just a thought Smallaxe, money saved could instead go to indy blogs like um Wings perhaps.
Couple more links before I go
link to indyref2.scot
link to indyref2.scot
Great idea, Nana,
Go and get yourself a cup of tea and put your feet up. You deserve it.
🙂
@ Nana, McWhirter will never be Ian Bell, Caveat Emptor eh?
On Marr this morning he took the tack of denial re Cambridge Analytical, yes something in America but I just cannot see the link when the concept of their involvement with Brexit was concerned.
Nothing wrong here then, aye right. Nothing at all said about Scotland, and of course no mention of possible SCL or Cambridge involved in Indy1.
During all the allegations concerning this group, never a mention of possible interference in our referendum. The silence is palatable.
Sarah Smith coming on at 11am to discuss these companies and their dealings, but this is the BBC and Marr has already given the BBC opinion. Nothing to be seen here! Masters of mis direction.
The B|BC does oncee that SCL was involveed in political interference up to 2013. GMS yesterday tod us that CA was involved in politicl interference from 2015.
There is one glaring omission from those years of political interference. Clearly, nothing of any political importance occurred in 2014.
WARNING PLEASE SHARE .
ANY WINGERS ON MY F/BOOK FRIENDS LIST BE AWARE MY ACCOUNT HAS BEEN HACKED & AS LOLLIESMUM HAD NOTICED THE WORDING USED ISN’T MINE .
BE ALERT TO THE SCAMMERS PEOPLE .
The BBC is the master of misdirection, on Marr this morning they had the reporter who blew the whistle on SCL/Cambridge Analytics.
Marr agreed something has been going on in America.
However he denied he could find any connection with the their involvement in the Brexit Ref, which was suggested by the reporter. He was not really interested, he just could not see that being the case.So there we have the BBC manipulating the evidence.
Nothing happened here! Both Marr and the other guest gave the reporter a bit of a hard time.
At 11am of Politics we have Sarah Smith who will be talking about these two companies, but Marr has already given the BBC view, ie nothing to be seen here!
Of course no mention of Scotland on Marr, no suggestion that Indy1 could have been effected. Their silence is palatable.
More of the same going to come from Smith, she will be pushing the same line.
On ” The BIG Questions” from Glasgow, I never knew there was so many English in a representative audience of Glasgow, anti SNP agenda is evident.
More unionist treachery and cover up. Absolutely appalling. Illegally cover up. MSM misinformation.
The Tories / unionists are absolute criminals. Above the Law.
Putin was one of the only one’s who supported Scotland self determination. and democracy. Exposing Cameron’s cheating and duplicity.
Cameron’s the illegal action. Breaking Purdah, corrupt pollsters manipulating the vote for money. Democracy denied (world wide) by unionist Westminster politicans acting illegally. Most of them should be in prison. English council elections 3rd May. More cheating and lying?
Since the 1990’s. Putin has done more for self determination and democracy in Russian (and the world) than any other world leader. To try and bring peace, prosperity and harmony than any other leader. Including events and attacks on Russian borders caused by the Western leaders. Cheating and lying to embezzle £Trns of public money the world over. Including public monies embezzled out of Russia and deposited in the West.
“””Robert Peffers says:
25 March, 2018 at 12:26 am
@Thepnr says: 24 March, 2018 at 9:05 pm:
“I suspect it will be the Scottish courts and hopefully they will do what the Belgian courts did with the warrant issued against Puigdemont and throw it out.”
As the lady is on Scottish soil then she is under Scottish Legal jurisdiction and the last time I looked St Andrews was still here in Fife. This could be a trigger for some real big confrontations and could perhaps swing a quantity of votes our way.”””
…………………………………
Arrests on the basis of European Arrest Warrants (EAW) are made by the Police Service of Scotland. Those individuals are then reported to COPFS, where they will appear in court on the EAW.
From: link to copfs.gov.uk
Les Wilson says:
25 March, 2018 at 10:34 am
“The BBC is the master of misdirection”
Les, the BBC is a WMD (Weapon of Mass Distraction)
Half of the lies that they tell aren’t true!
😉
Robert Louis @ 8.09
Well yes Robert,any Country can end a Treaty by walkin away.
(All the following is just indeed opinion)
But most if not all don’t run their Government as a small part of another Countries Government,and an elected body without the normal power’s of a Country.
Which throws a bit of shade on “who”exactly is doing the walking away….so I don’t think it’s fair to say that,it’s buying into the Westminster narrative, to speculate about what power’s it does or doesn’t have!
Any Country who does just walk away, will pay a price somehow.
And most other Treaty’s have within them, named “which” court they consider to be the final arbitrary authority in the event of a dispute.
EG…All the member state’s signed up to the EU without a get out clause in their Treaty’s…. But they all agreed that the ECJ was the court responsible for makin judgements on any and ALL issues between the members.
So it was a simple matter to add and agree to an article 50!
Scotland also signed up to a Treaty with no get out clause,and it’s final court was the House of Lord’s, eventually, replaced by the UK Supreme Court.
While the Treaty demands that Scot’s law be written separately, its still sayin that Westminster does the writing!
And Westminster has NO Court above it,in fact Westminster is forbidden to do anything that would put any court above it.
The only role of these final Courts is to rule on Law’s that Westminster writes.
That was the position in 1706,2014 and currently..
“So no article 50 for you Scotland”…ever
While this arrangement doesn’t give us an identifiable legal way out.
It also dose NOT have an identifiable legal way to keep us in…..unlike like Catalonia and Spain, and that makes all the difference!
Therefore the Only fall back position is “The People” and how they vote….not least because there are now Law’s both domestically, and internationally around voting.
We might not have an identifiable “get out ” law, but we do have an Identifiable people.
Although we should probably keep an eye on any change’s around voting,and any Treaties (ECHR) that have a thing to say about it,Westminster are signed up to!!
Ledgerwood 11.05
Are you sayin that there’s likely nothing that Scottish law can do for the Lady?
@Legerwood
Thanks for that info on the EAW as it relates to Scotland. I was wrong in my earlier post in stating “hopefully they will do what the Belgian courts did with the warrant issued against Puigdemont and throw it out.”
Puigdemont did appear in a Belgian court on a EAW but before he was due to return to court for the decision Spain revoked the warrant. So the Belgian courts didn’t have to make a decision.
From the total number of cases appearing in the Scottish courts on an EAW it looks like less than 70% are actually extradited. I hope this backfires for Spain and if Clara Ponsati has to go to court then I believe there’s a good chance of it being thrown out as she clearly has committed no crime.
link to straitstimes.com
@Liz g
Just been reported that Carles Puigdemont has been detained in Germany on his way back from Germany. If the same happens to Clara Ponsati then she may have to go to court.
The court though can refuse to extradite her which is what looked to be the most likely outcome in Belgium for Puigdemont before Spain pulled the plug on the warrant.
I think if either are extradited there will be an outcry among people probably not the MSM.
Here is an interesting (IMO!) link to a discussion of how Brexit impacts on devolution tin Wales, but with comparisons to Scotland here and there. Worth a read if you’ve the time …
link to gwallter.com
“Britain after Brexit is not the same place as it was before it joined the EU. Neither is Wales. The new fact of Wales’ political existence requires more than lip service. Carwyn Jones, even before the Brexit referendum, had been calling for a constitutional convention to set out how the UK should work as a territory of plural governance. Now that the mould of EU law which kept us all together in a single market looks like it has been broken, the need for new frameworks, new understandings and new relationships governed by mutual respect and parity of esteem is even greater.”
Thepnr @ 12.17
Yes that’s what I would have thought!
She has done nothing that a Scot’s court could say was “criminal” and don’t we have political asylum rules here too?
Liz g says:
25 March, 2018 at 12:15 pm
Ledgerwood 11.05
Are you sayin that there’s likely nothing that Scottish law can do for the Lady?””
………………
No, I am saying nothing of the sort.
I am clarifying what the process is in relation to the warrant because there are some wild and woolly claims being made – eg English police coming to arrest her etc.
Just because Spain has issued a warrant does not mean that it is enacted without testing it in the Courts in the location where the person who is the subject of the warrant is currently located. The Courts, in this case in Scotland, have to rule on whether the warrant is properly executed.
And, most importantly, in all such cases the subject of the warrant has the opportunity to argue their case as to why the warrant should be set aside.
Smallaxe says:
“Half of the lies that they tell aren’t true!”
Actually ALL the lies they tell aren’t true! Lies never are!
Hope all is well with you, and nice to see you back.
Two articles, 217 comments in a row (+ this wobbly one) sweet.
R.Leonard appears to me 4 dimensional, nice edge Chris ~
This will be the point where the ground splits before the dragon as it plunges into the abyss, as the hero saves the girl.
You shall not pass, tres weakened Westminster Balrog:
link to youtube.com
Some things need to be finished.
Get yourselves a Wingsuit.
Gandalf returns.
Lunchtime 🙂