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Wings Over Scotland


The Different Numbers

Posted on August 16, 2018 by

Today’s Daily Record has a “shock” poll revealing what this site told you a week and a half ago – namely that just under half of Scots want a second referendum on Brexit. (Our Panelbase poll said 46%, the Record’s YouGov one says 48%.)

Amusingly, the paper describes this minority as “overwhelming support” for another vote, and runs an editorial leader demanding that Labour and the SNP unite to back such a proposal.

And, y’know, we may as well make the obvious point.

Because that 48% is slightly LOWER than the 51% of Scots who also told our poll that they wanted another independence referendum within a few years, before the end of the next Scottish Parliament term.

But the Record puts a slightly different spin on results like that.

Far from running an editorial demanding a second indyref, the paper focused on the people opposed to the idea and wrote that “the Survation poll suggests any move towards IndyRef2 would still leave Sturgeon facing a backlash from the public”.

So let’s just recap:

Roughly half of Scots in favour of a new vote on something the Record wants: “overwhelming support”

Roughly half of Scots in favour of a new vote on something the Record DOESN’T want: “a backlash from the public”

Glad we cleared that up.

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    1. 16 08 18 12:56

      The Different Numbers | speymouth

    80 to “The Different Numbers”

    1. Neil H says:

      The Independent is suggesting that The SNP (with Labour) may be the problem: “Labour and SNP under pressure in Scotland as poll shows voters strongly support fresh referendum”

    2. Dr Jim says:

      Did Davie Clegg squirm these words out while wearing his sash and bowler hat just to make sure he spun it *the correct way*

    3. ScotsRenewables says:

      The Daily Broken Record

    4. Brian Powell says:

      Of course their constant use of polls diverts from the reality that none of the results deal with the issues of EU membership or Independence or why we need it.

      One of the ‘great shock’ realisations of the past few years is that the Scottish newspapers and the Unionist parties are populated almost exclusively by c.nts.

    5. Bob Mack says:

      I read regularly that education has failed our children in Scotland since the SNP came to power. It appears that journalists who most likely predate an education under the SNP have had the same failure in numeracy.

      Oh for the good old days of education when you sat for hours reciting your times table parrot fashion and being thrashed by a leather belt for fairly minor indiscetions.Sighs wistfully ( not).

      Journalists? My ass in parsley

    6. Brian Powell says:

      Neil H

      Does the Independent explain why voters want another EU Ref? That’s the one thing that is never asked.

    7. Macart says:

      Neatly done Rev. 🙂

      A flock with one stone as it were.

    8. Geordie says:

      I’m definitely not in favour of a second EU vote. Come a winning Indyref2 and the opposition will scream that we must apply the same principle, hoping at worst for some sort of cobbledy Home Rule. Nope, let ’em hang by Brexit as it stands.

    9. Fergus Green says:

      the words ‘cat and ‘Shrodinger’ spring to mind

    10. Gerry says:

      I think you’re getting the big half confused with the little half, /s

    11. Proud Cybernat says:

      Heads I win, tails you lose.

    12. Brian Powell says:

      There is a a huge issue which the Daily Record don’t want us to see. The UK Government are the only ones who can call an EU Referendum and the UK Government along with Labour and the LibDems said there is only a UK Referendum result, there is no Scottish EU Referendum result.

      The Daily Record and its over inflated Editor are spouting utter p.sh. He wants the UK to run Scotland, with his pets from Labour running the Scottish branch office, so all this is smokescreen.

      He and Gordon Broon must have been down the pub at the weekend, had far too many, and come up with this bollox headline and take, because the substance of his ‘argument’ is the same as Broons.

    13. Dr Jim says:

      And if Scotland votes again to remain in the EU and England again outvotes us to leave will the staunch loyal bampots then realise Scotlands vote never counted in the first place because it’s only Englands votes that ever count by a number of 10 to 1

      If it was a proper vote in the first place it would have been a country by country vote irrespective of population size

      Y’know democratic a bit like the EU would have done when they need to decide something and not the Benighted Kingdom of Englands rigged gerrymandering style

    14. John says:

      Being saying this for ages – the English always, but ALWAYS blame someone else for their own problems. It’s in their nature. Just wait – Westminster will manufacture a situation where a vote occurs and the balance of leave/remain will fall on a number that the SNP vote can tip either way.

      They will promote our MPs as having the ‘casting vote’, and therefore have someone else to blame either way. When the time comes and leave is slightly ahead we should abstain and let them drive their bus over the cliff. Then immediately announce I2.

      And when they start their whining tell them to their faces to go to hell.

    15. Proud Cybernat says:

      Did the red or blue Tory parties have a second EU Referendum in their party’s manifesto last year?

      That would be a NO, they didn’t. So, Cleggy boy, how the hell can a second EU Ref be called if it wasn’t in their manifestos?

      If you want Scots to remain in the EU (which we voted for) then get yourself behind a 2nd IndyRef for Scotland cos that’s the ONLY way it has a chance of happening.

    16. BJ says:

      Emma Thomson had plenty to say about her objection to Independence in Scotland.

      I received a begging letter from her today looking for donations to Greenpeace, a charity I fully support already.

      As she obviously thinks we’re too wee, stupid and poor to run our own country maybe she could sell her holiday house in Dunoon and donate the proceeds on my behalf

    17. Macart says:

      @Dr Jim

      As I said last thread:

      “How and ever, worth pointing out to these folks that Scotland’s population only require one referendum to remain in the single market and customs union and it also has the added bonus of wiping out the UKs parliamentary democratic defecit. Win win really.”

      The papers missed that bit out in their dash to ‘democracy is what they say it is’ spiel. 😎

    18. This must be a first: a page of the Daily Raggard without bums and tits, or a gangster/slasher/ rapist story, or a Steven Gerrard or Brendan Rogers story.
      What the hell was David Clegg thinking when he touted The Clunking Fist’s nonsense speech as ‘powerful’ in the Raggard via twitter?
      Brown is a rumpled old dinosaur who gave us PFI schools, and his party voted with the Blue and Yellow Tories in July to introduce cuts and caps on payments to children, the low paid, the unemployed, the sick, and the elderly. Meanwhile his rich cronies got a 5% tax cut.
      There are 360,000 children starving in Scotland because of Brown’s lies about a Federal Scotland.
      WM cuts are killing our children, Brown; it is fuck all to do with the SNP or the Scottish Government, but you know that. Meanwhile,Rennie, Davidson and Leonard sit on their fat arses and do nothing but attempt to undermine the Scottish Government’s efforts to mitigate death by Red Blue and Yellow Tory edict.
      How’s Brown’s wee ‘charity’ going? How much do the ‘directors’ get as a wage?
      He is beneath contempt, now, then, and any time into the future.
      I note that Glenn Campbell revealed that they were not allowed to film the Q&A section at the International Book Festival.
      The point must have broken on Glenn HB Pencil.No reported summary of the Q&A? I wonder why?
      This arrogant buffoon, because buffoon he is, is allowed free rein across the Scottish Media; he is part of the Anglo-Scot Brit Nat Establishment, still trying to rule our country as a colony.
      Tractor.

    19. Breeks says:

      Just makes me bloody angry with us.

      Why are we still sitting on our arses allowing ourselves to be dragged into another EU Referendum which does absolutely NOTHING to further the interests of Independence?

      We HAVE a sovereign mandate to remain in Europe.
      We HAVE a Constitutional dispute over Sovereignty.
      We HAVE Westminster adrift without any mandate to overrule us.
      We HAVE Europe giving an Indy Scotland all the encouragement it can.

      Please don’t tell me we are about to piss away all our advantage yet again, and be dragged by the nose into a domestic UK civil war over Brexit, where the impact and effect as it relates to Scotland needs another 18 months of naval gazing and a fecking Ouija board to decipher.

      FFS take some initiative, like the Irish, and start steering Brexit towards where WE want Brexit to take us, and that is full speed ahead into an irreconcilable Constitutional dispute which the damned Union can neither negotiate nor survive intact, and which which will deliver an Independent Scotland saving itself from the calamity of Brexit as per the sovereign edict the people of Scotland delivered all the way back in 2016.

      We have ALL we need to win this, bar it would seem, progressive momentum and leadership.

    20. KathyT says:

      What would the question on a second EU ref be? I have never seen that specified.

    21. Clootie says:

      ….I wonder why the Daily Record is so keen to push the idea of further Referendums. Given their past record I will always go in the opposite direction to any recommendation made by this rag.

    22. ” editorial leader demanding that Labour and the SNP unite to back such a proposal.” ? who the hell are labour were they not a political party a ling time ago?

    23. HandandShrimp says:

      I think a second EU vote is unlikely. It would almost certainly come back as a Remain vote and the Tory Party would tear itself apart in the subsequent blood letting. Such is the chaotic nature of the negotiations that it is hard to determine what the strategy is. May could be trying to stay in the CU and SM through some hybrid arrangement that will likely please no one or we could crash out because they really are as incompetent and divided as they seem. If this was an In the Thick Of It script we might consider the chaos over the top. The fact that reality outplays satire is disturbing.

      David Clegg exhibits a magnificent double think above but it will not be the first or last Unionist double think we see.

    24. Clootie says:

      Like Breeks I have no interest in becoming involved in the Brexit fiasco. Our future lies as an independent nation and making our own choices.

      The distraction of joining the debate on another EU referendum is unwelcome for independence supporters. The hard Brexit will be the wake up call some people need…..remember they took you out of Europe against your will.

    25. yesindyref2 says:

      Yes but, errr, reasons.

    26. K1 says:

      DR: Spam dressed as shit. Fake shit at that.

    27. yesindyref2 says:

      OT
      It’s always great when you make a “considered” posting somewhere, and someone else makes the posting you could have made as well, a perfect complement.

    28. galamcennalath says:

      We have the power get out of this mess … IndyRef2. What is an EURef2 supposed to achieve?

      One possible outcome is Scotland votes to Remain, England votes to Leave. Aye, that will be taken account of, won’t it!?

      Another is the whole UK votes to cancel Brexit. So Scotland gets to stay in the EU, but still attached to the UK and the lunatic Tories that come with it. A marginally better outcome, but won’t achieve anything like what a YES in IndyRef2 will!

      The hypocrisy of the Remain faction of BritNats is truly astonishing. Have they no self awareness?

    29. ronnie anderson says:

      K1 Long time since ah hud ah Spam fritter an it’ll be ah longer time noo , might hiv ah Polony wan instead lol.

    30. yesindyref2 says:

      It’s quite a tricky one, a 2nd EU Ref. With 62% voting Remain, and more like 68% or even 70% now in favour of Remain, from just an EU point of view it would be better for Scotland if the UK as a whole stayed in the EU, or at least in the SM and CU / EEA.

      But of course from the point of view of getting a YES vote for Indy, it’s therefore better for the UK to have no deal and a hard Brexit, to drive support for a YES vote.

      I guess it means we have to give grudging support to the notion of EU Ref 2, and so does the SNP. But it can’t really afford to go overboard on it. The SNP certainly can’t be in the lead, as so many “cunning” unionists have suggested it should, it can only vote YES to it in the House of Commons, if others bring it up.

      Which seems to be exactly what it’s doing.

    31. yesindyref2 says:

      From the other point of view, with Scotland having voted Remain against the will of the rest of the UK apart from Norn Ireland, it would actually be improper and undemocratic for Scotland to take the lead on a 2nd EU Ref, it would be the tail wagging the dog as the unionists would like to say, so it’s also totally democratically correct the SNP don’t push it, but give some nodding support to the idea – as long as it originates in England and / or Wales who voted Leave.

      So that’s all OK then.

    32. Tam the Bam. says:

      O/T

      The Morgan story (jailed for 12 years) just broadcast on Misreporting Scotland featured a pic of the accused holding a Saltire.
      Obviously the pics of him holding the butcher’s apron would have played to a narrative not favoured by the BBC.Subliminal inference of the worst kind.

    33. Marie Clark says:

      Oh dear, the daily retard again sigh!. Well I have no wish to see a second EU referendum.

      Scotland does not need it, we only need one referendum and then we have all the options open to us. Ours for the choosing.

      Independence, that’s the fella that will do it all, INDEPENDENCE.

    34. Robert Peffers says:

      The differences between the Wings poll, and any other unionist poll except the Daily Wrecker is a bit like how an optimist and a pessimist differently view their respective glasses of whisky.

      The optimist sees a half full glass, the pessimist sees a half empty glass and the Daily Wrecker sees a half full glass that they have slyly watered down.

      Think about it! Think about it!

    35. Effijy says:

      Can I set this stall out now:

      I voted Remain, but if a Second EU Referendum takes place, I will vote for Brexit, even though I don’t want Brexit in Scotland.

      I see a Hard Brexit with England falling flat on its face as the best way forward to gain Scottish Independence.

      Bean Counters and Polls be aware that because I might vote Brexit,I’m totally against it for Scotland, but it can deliver one very satisfying consequence.

      No offence to the Irish Republic, but I’d be glad to see them in a United Ireland where they take responsibility for the neighbouring barbarians known as the DUP.

    36. Proud Cybernat says:

      So let’s suppose a 2nd EU Ref happened. And England by a wafer-thin margin again votes to LEAVE but this time the REMAIN vote in Scotland is big enough to overturn the vote in England, to overturn the will of the English people.

      Does anyone here imagine for a second that the Maybot would, in such a circumstance, be saying “It was a UK-Wide vote”? No – it would be, “We can’t have the tail wagging the dog! We demand our full English Brexit.”

      It’s only ever a UK-wide vote when it goes in England’s favour but when it doesn’t, it’s the tail wagging the dog. And we can’t have that, can we?

    37. Sharny Dubs says:

      I’m confused, am I overlashed or backwhelmed?

    38. Tinto Chiel says:

      A clear example from The Rev of the default spin this “newspaper” employs.

      I could only see a second referendum coming about as a rather desperate measure to delay or frustrate our independence campaign. Of course some less lunatic Tories might think a second EU ref. would mean outright civil war in their party but at least possible electoral defeat would remove them from having to face up to the consequences of their actions in doing a Boris-led Brexit crash-out. I still can’t see Corbyn getting an outright majority, even in these circs.

      Actually, I feel an equally crazy GE might just be on the cards. Recent portents: two Ruth “Dark Money” flyers through my letter-box, increasingly desperate and shrill anti-Semitism smears against Oooooh Jeremy Corbyn, a convenient “terrorist” incident in London, a Brownian Intervention followed by belly rumble and loud rift from that odious crawler Michelle Mone.

      I can only hope we’re seeing the rather ludicrous dead throes of Londinium.

    39. yesindyref2 says:

      @Breeks
      I enjoy your postings, and they definitely need to be said. It’s the same as those who are determined to keep Indy Ref 2 in front of the SNP to make it difficult for them to backslide. There’s some will be demonstrating outside the SNP conference, and I’ll be there in spirit and maybe even in body. I hope there are hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands, and that it includes SNP members who then go in to the conference itself, including some of the politicians.

      But I have to go back to what I posted in forums around that snap General Election in 2017, that people in Scotland were sick to death of elections and referendums, and that the best thing the SNP could do is say nothing for a while, and in the words of the unionists “get on with the day job”. Meanwhile the Indy pot could continue simmering away on its own, just an occasional top up of water to soften the tough meat and the vegetables! A bit more salt, it’s good for you and helps increase the boiling point.

      I get a laugh to myself when I think that in the incredibly unlikely event the SNP were henging on every word I say, they’d be wondering “What is this guy telling us now?”, when I say, like Peter A Bell, that the SNP must do something, must use the mandate. They’d be thinking “But he told us not to keep on about Independence, would he please make up his flaming mind?”.

      So there we go, some contradictory thoughts for you 🙂

    40. Bill Hume says:

      A new EU referendum will not happen because the international forces which seek to destroy the EU will not let it happen.

      Even if it could be held, a win for remain would not satisfy the English Britnat knuckle draggers who have been schooled by the British press to hate all foreigners. This would result in even more unrest in our southern neighbour.

      No, let’s keep out of this one.
      Let them go to hell in their own wheelbarrow.

    41. Marie Clark says:

      Sheesh, comments no appearing again, oh well, I’ll try and dodge any hammers for posting this time.

      I’m agin a 2nd EU ref, no need for it.

      Scotland only needs one ref and it solves all of this nonsense. It’s up to us what we would like to do.

      Independence, that’s the fella that’ll do it. INDEPENDENCE.

    42. Robert Peffers says:

      O/T:
      You really have to laugh at BBC Jockland. I’m just reading a text service report about a convicted Rapist, I won’t name him and you will realise why – The BBC reports the case and names the guy then ends by saying stating the guy’s name, “R***, who cannot be named for legal reasons carried out the attack … “

      Now rape is never a joking matter but the sheer ineptitude of these trained professional journalists is hilarious.

    43. Dan Huil says:

      The daily record seems to think Broon is a credible person. He isnae. Broon and the record are sad and pathetic. No wonder newspaper sales are down and support for labour is down.

      No to another EU referendum. Let England stew. It’s not Scotland’s job to clear up England’s mess.

    44. haudonthenoo says:

      The Broon thing – I just do not get it. Does the Record seriously think he has any credibility, with anyone ? Really ?

      I have never heard one person have a good word to say about the gob-shite.

    45. Proud Cybernat says:

      Meant to add…

      Ever notice how the British Nationalist Press (BNP) present a UK GE as a UK-wide vote when it’s the blue Tories being propped up by the DUP but if it’s the red Tory Labour mob being potentially being propped up by the SNP, it’s the tail wagging the dog.

      The DUP are a bunch of ravenous hound dogs. And I’m not particularly in favour of tail docking but with that mob I could be persuaded.

    46. r.esquierdo says:

      David Clegg. Who is he? Does he work for the same paper as Murray Foote once worked for?

    47. r esquierdo says:

      Message to Broon the millionaire . Mrs Duffy is coming tae get you

    48. sandy says:

      Why doesn’t the Daily Record rebrand itself as the Daily Celtic/Rangers news with added horse racing with absolute certainty tips, that, and other tittle-tattle like so-called celebrities picking their noses in public or having an in-growing toenail or something as dramatic.

    49. Giving Goose says:

      yesindyref2

      Kind of agree with you “that the best thing the SNP could do is say nothing for a while..”

      In addition, I believe that Brexit and preferably the hard as f*** sort, needs to happen, causing as much pain and chaos as possible. That should wake people up and focus minds.

      Alternatively, a scenario where half of the English public feel betrayed by not getting the “right sort” of Brexit would be interesting as well.

      English society is so split that any back tracking or sliding from the idealogically pure Brexit (you know the one – get rid of Johnny Foreigner, no EU interference in Blighty’s affairs, birds singing over the White Cliffs of Dover, Enid Blyton back on the curriculum & compulsory pie and mash served for school meals) would see Farage & co leading troops over the top to sort out “the Elite” who had not awarded him a knighthood and betrayed the English electorate.

      The SNP should just sit back and not get involved.
      Let the chaos unfold and the UK diminish.

    50. Fred says:

      The English mentality sees England as an island, a Scot would never describe Scotland thus!

    51. Wee bud says:

      O/T
      I don’t know if anyone has mentioned the witch hunt on MSM for Corbyn…. Get rid of May and Brexit carries on but get rid of Corbyn.. Seems OTT but I think we understand now how the British state works.. Surely they ain’t that stupid to let this shit storm carry on.. Then again carry on as it will ultimately end this so called union..

    52. Andy-B says:

      I wonder if Murray Foote cringes when he see’s tabloid junk like this in the DR. Mr Dick is aptly named I might add.

    53. Proud Cybernat says:

      O/T

      James Melville Twitter:
      ?
      @JamesMelville

      “The UK government is now so fearful of a Brexit related £ collapse that its shifting its own Treasury funds out of £s and into €s. Our own government is even hedging against Brexit.”

    54. Sarah says:

      I’ve been wanting to say this for a couple of days.

      There’s 6 months to Brexit day – that is already not really long enough for a campaign to restore Scotland’s position of equality with England [aka independence vote].

      The business decisions to move employment, trade etc to Europe have already been taken. If we wait any longer, the business decisions will be irrevocable and the damage to our existence done. It is irresponsible to let our lives be ruined when we could have a go at preventing it.

      I don’t think we should wait for the UK political decisions. To protect ourselves the campaign and voting day should be announced now. Then the arguments will get some airing whereas at the moment they are not.

      Westminster and the Establishment are desperate to stave off our referendum – why allow them to decide the timetable? They are irresponsible, incompetent, immoral, cowardly, sociopathic – you name it – and they will not change any time soon. There is no hope for English voters but we do have a chance to escape.

      I have read all the articles/comments saying to wait but I simply disagree – on economic grounds and on social welfare grounds. How much longer do we permit e.g. Home Office human rights abuses to go on? Cuts to all our services? Scotland should be comfortably off and socially just but our income is taken by Westminster and their rotten political parties always attack everyone who isn’t wealthy.

      I could go on but I’m sure you get my drift.

    55. wull2 says:

      To me Scotland should sit back just now, WM is doing a good enough job for us.
      Meanwhile tell all your friends what they are up to and vote YES next time.

    56. Dr Jim says:

      Is it the Daily Records position that Murray Foote was misguided in 2014 when he invented *The VOW* or misguided in 2018 when he distanced himself from it to back Independence or indeed lying on one or both of these occasions

      Does the Daily Record have a consistancy of positions on any issues at all or is it really just a popular football magazine and horse racing supplement to wrap a bacon roll in

      The Beano’s catching up I hear, and a better laugh

    57. Proud Cybernat says:

      The Beano a better laugh than the Daily Record? You sure about that, Dr Jim?

    58. Notice how the Conservative voters/Tory voters has been left out.

      It would be interesting to see what that vote share is like.

      The rags created Brexit, now they are wanting to rerun the referendum. Is it healthy having a media, so persistent in influencing Democracy?

      I voted Remain but this could create detrimental prescedent, in that Scotland would have to vote Yes twice “because we got that with Brexit”.

      It would leave it impossible to win a referendum. Ever.

      Please don’t kill me with hammers.

    59. Dr Jim says:

      @Proud Cybernat

      How can you say such a vile thing, my entire formative education was based around the truths of The Beano the Dandy and our most important of Scottish literary works Oor Wullie and the Broons

      There should be compulsory Uni degrees, mandatory courses in schools, the little blighters should have it beaten into them with smacky rulers and chalk dusters flung at them hourly

      They have to learn Y’know, make comedy great again

    60. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 16 August, 2018 at 2:14 pm:

      ” … I enjoy your postings, and they definitely need to be said. It’s the same as those who are determined to keep Indy Ref 2 in front of the SNP to make it difficult for them to backslide.”

      Aye!
      Richt!

      So it’s SNP BAAAAD! Again then, is it,yesindyref2?

      Just what actual evidence do you propose to offer that there is backsliding in the SNP in either the party or the Government?

      The rest of your post is the usual, not so hidden, anti-SNP agenda. Against the only hope in hell that the Kingdom of Scotland has to regain its independence.

      Just because you think you know better than the FM, The SG and the SNP party members doesn’t make your bullshit true.

      There has been no backsliding and arses like you are a danger to Scottish independence. More battles, both armed conflict and political, have been lost by over eager idiots charging a numerically superior or better equipped enemy head on when the better equipped enemy has guns with a longer effective range than those of the attackers, are better armoured and dug in.

      Hence the advice to the better equipped, better armoured and dug in enemy troops, “Hold your fire until you can see the whites of their eyes”, and the, “Glorious”, charge of the Light Brigade was predestined by idiots to ending in useless slaughter.

      It is the very worst tactical error to attack too soon.

      Now tell us all who it is you fondly imagine will gain Scotland her independence when this imagined SNP has backslid and thus been voted out of power?

      Will it be Jim Sillars to the rescue or perhaps Tommy Sheridan? Maybe Colin Fox, Frances Curran, Rosie Kane, Sandra Webster, Bill Bonnar or Carolyne Leckie?

      Now I’ve no fundamental political grievance with left-wing socialism’s policies in the main but the above crew are like futrets in a poke and will never agree amongst themselves long enough to ever become a force in Scottish politics and the Right wing rainbow coloured unionists are the visible enemy of independence.

      In other words we go with the SNP or reconcile ourselves to remaining in the union – there are no other options open to us.

    61. Capella says:

      Continuing a three-part series on Catalonia, Alex Salmond speaks to three of the world’s leading economists who have intervened in the Catalan constitutional debate. They give their views on the economics of an independent Catalonia, the dangers of a world trade war and the economic impact of a UK Brexit.

      https://www.rt.com/shows/alex-salmond-show/436081-catalonia-debate-alex-salmond/

    62. Golfnut says:

      @ Sarah.3:30 pm

      It’s easy to get caught up in the idea that we need to move now to save jobs etc, and to a degree its true, jobs will go if we are dragged out of the EU. We have to balance that with the knowledge that most of Scotland’s major wealth generators are going nowhere. Oil and gas, renewables and hydro production, food, water, whisky and gin. The fish will still be here. We have a massive Financial services industry that despite what you might hear, ain’t shifting. Why? Because Scotland is surrounded by trillions of dollars of oil. Independence will bring a jobs boom, ports and airports brought back to life, along with ship and rigg building. Infrastructure will need a massive overhaul, along with new housing to meet the needs of not only us but those who choose to move here. We are looking at a massive increase in the jobs market, perhaps hundreds of thousands, the SDF will create around 15,000 alone.
      So please don’t get to pessimistic.

    63. Dr Jim says:

      Full agreement with @Robert Peffers on this one, the SNP will not backslide and nobody will be needed to push them into jumping first or too soon, I’d love a referendum now but like the SNP I’d hate to lose worse than cutting my arm off the consequences don’t bear thinking about

      Nicola Sturgeon quite famously stated she didn’t want to lose another one and I think I know exactly what she meant when she said that (remember how we all felt and remember the Britnats glee) we don’t want to face that again

      When the time comes it will be devastating for the British Nationalists when they’re left with nothing to fight with and the SNP stamps their foot down so hard on them they’ll not recover from the defeat and the embarrassment that defeat will bring them to the world, then Scotland can move on with strength respect and support from the rest of the world

      It’s a hard wait to take but the result will be well worth it in the end, because it will be *the end* for the Unionists…….. oh the joy!

    64. Patrick Roden says:

      Proud Cybernat says:

      James Melville Twitter:

      @JamesMelville

      “The UK government is now so fearful of a Brexit related £ collapse that its shifting its own Treasury funds out of £s and into €s. Our own government is even hedging against Brexit.”

      Wow!

      That’s crazy if true.
      It means The British Government has lost confidence in the UK’s economy.

      Oh dear!

    65. red sunset says:

      Lots of people saying we need a hard, hard Brexit which would bring everybody to their senses and we would then get a Yes vote. (Ok, a bit paraphrased).

      I understand the argument, BUT …

      Who is going to tell the people about this ?
      Are the papers going to write “Brexit has been a disaster” ?
      Is the BBC going to run a documentary, or even a few minutes on MisReporting Scotland, laying out the consequences ?

      NO. After whatever-type-of-Brexit we’ll hear didn’t-we-do-well all wrapped in Union Jacks.

      I’ve said since before the Referendum that our greatest enemy is the BBC. That’s still true. That will still be true after Brexit.

      Somebody, somewhere, really really really needs to come up with a solution to getting the word over to the BBC listeners and MSM readers.

    66. Imagine Scotland Northern Ireland, Wales, and oh yes, England, were in an International Football competition, a wee pre-season eight team affair, along with France Italy Germany and Spain.
      A wee knock out tournament with a shiny cup to the eventual winner.
      Scotland and Northern Ireland win their games against sturdy European competitors. England and Wales lose theirs.
      England and Wales call ‘foul’ and demand that the first round be replayed.
      Aye, right. Scotland and Northern Ireland have no need for a replay. They won. So why would Scotland, why would the SNP ‘back Labour’ in calling for a second EURef?
      WEw voted Remain. What’s in it for us Remainers in going through it all again? We won.
      Why would any of us prop up Comrade Corbyn and the Militant Left anarchists of Momentum Mob?
      They lost.
      The SNP: does what it says on the tin.

      Self Determination for Scotland.

      We are not interested in the Red Tories desperate bid for Self Preservation and political relevance.

    67. TD says:

      I do not subscribe to the idea of supporting a harsh and painful Brexit in order to build support for Scottish independence. Brexit will be so damaging to the whole UK and to Scotland in particular that anything, including a second referendum, that can be done should be done to prevent it.

      Let’s follow the logic through. If we have a second EU referendum and the UK still votes to leave, this will reinforce the Scottish electorate’s perception of Scotland being an afterthought, a part of the UK that can be ignored. Assuming of course that Scotland votes to remain again, which I think is a safe bet. So far so good from a Scottish independence perspective.

      If we have a second EU referendum and this time the UK votes to remain, there will be several consequences. First, the UK will be humiliated on the world stage. The UK will be a laughing stock.

      Second, the Tories will be seen for what they are – a self-serving, unpleasant bunch of morons who were prepared to risk the well-being of the UK electorate in order to sort out their long-running internal dispute about Europe. People don’t like divided parties and losers. If only Labour were in a fit state to step into the breach – but that’s another matter.

      Third, and most importantly from a Scottish independence perspective, the Britnat delusion that motivated some “No” voters in the Scottish referendum will be well and truly shattered. People will lose confidence in their beloved UK because nobody wants to be associated with humiliation. By supporting a Scottish Yes vote, they can dissociate themselves from the Brexit fiasco.

      So it seams to me that a second EU referendum can only help the Scottish independence campaign, whatever the result. I think, at the right time, the SNP should declare their active support for EUref2.

    68. Clapper57 says:

      Your “recap” hit the nail in the head Rev.

      The manipulation of the truth via newspaper headlines is always presented with the emphasis and advantage being from a Unionist perspective.

      50% For and 50% Against equals same for either side….no amount of manipulation will be able to amend that fact…but somehow the Unionist media presents the advantage from a Unionist perspective. If people who continue to buy these papers cannot see that then they are complicit in the continuation of this fake format unless they are really too dim to distinguish these obvious orchestrated attacks being deployed to undermine both the SNP and the pro independence movement !

      The fact that this newspaper reports something which was reported by you a week and half ago proves that just like all MSM as far as news is concerned they, the MSM, are always late to the party…….usually intentionally late……and one finds that social media ….which is depicted as non trustworthy by the MSM ….fills the void of reporting , debating , dissecting both current and breaking news that the MSM would rather be hidden ……..and then when certain news becomes conspicuous by it’s MSM absence only then when the MSM cannot deploy their usual tactics of ignoring and omission do they report with their edited and abridged version…..if it’s positive news for SNP or independence then they add on to the news article/item a “BUT”, “HOWEVER”,” SOME CRITICS SAY”, “OPPOSITION PARTIES SAY”….. if it’s negative for SNP or independence then basically they ensure a hatchet job is done and roll out usual suspects from usual unionist parties to reinforce SNPBAD and INDYBAD message….though nine times out of ten they can make any SNP good story bad via suggestion and clever editing.

      It was interesting to see via the WOS twitter account the video of an effective tactic deployed by a Danish politician on an attack via Trish Regan from Fox News. Trish Regan made accusations based on ? which the Danish politician managed to , one by one, destroy and present irrefutable evidence and facts that showed her assertions, which she presented as true, were actually fake news. Now this is what an independent government can do…hold the media to account when they are economical with the facts or blatantly promoting fake news .

      Unfortunately our Scottish government are currently joined to a toxic union where there is no real accountability or responsibility for unionist promoted media to present news other than from a position that favours the maintaining of the union against the suppression of those who seek self determination.

      Hence the lack of information and misinformation.

      Omission of facts and manipulation of facts a la Unionist style .

      Contrived news .

      News derived from those whose objectivity is questionable and yet from whom the MSM accepts ,without question, as credible sources of news and information to transmit … a La Marra.

      A succession of unionist politicians , bloggers , journalists, personalities are allowed to promote their subjective opinions on constitutional matters with no real challenge on their assertions even although tis obvious they are blatantly pro Union and anti Independence…..this on both SCOTTISH politics programmes….and UNIONIST programmes such as BBC QT.

      Tis not only that we are being constantly subjected to a media that takes advantage of it’s undeserved platform to provide a news service that does not reflect a majority of people in Scotland but it is also that they are permitted to do this because of, the and in the name of , this god awful UNION that , like the media, is not fit or relevant for the purpose it claims to be for…..

      The Danish politician video I mentioned above is NOT a politician censoring the media or challenging free speech but tis a politician defending his country against undeserved and unjustified criticism via false news from a misinformed and bigoted biased journalist ( ha ha ) with a specific agenda . The SNP should be bold and be prepared to challenge ALL avenues of similar attacks irrespective of whom is attacking because come Indy2 as sure as night is day we who support Indy, and the SNP , will be subjected to the same tired old tactics, and papers such as the Daily Record will be only to willing to oblige the promotion of the Unionist cause against the Indy one…..we will never forget or forgive The non Vow, Project Fear and the infamous BT collusion from ALL Unionist parties in Indy1 so it’s not as if we don’t know what’s coming but by Christ we do know now how to overcome it and win……and so should the SNP !!!!

      Huge apologies for large post….breathe…breathe…off me chest…another one !!!

    69. Clapper57 says:

      ” night is day “….oops meant ” night becomes day” wahahaha

      Keyboard warrior syndrome i.e. type at relentless angry pace and then forget to edit….wahahaha I’m black affronted !!!

    70. yesindyref2 says:

      At it again with your flailing attacks against Indy supporters are you Peffers, with your total inability to read and understand what others say? Was there something about:

      But I have to go back to what I posted in forums around that snap General Election in 2017, that people in Scotland were sick to death of elections and referendums, and that the best thing the SNP could do is say nothing for a while, and in the words of the unionists “get on with the day job”. Meanwhile the Indy pot could continue simmering away on its own, just an occasional top up of water to soften the tough meat and the vegetables! A bit more salt, it’s good for you and helps increase the boiling point.

      that you didn’t understand? Here’s something else for you to not bother reading and understanding

      Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation

      18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents. If you can’t do anything else, chide and taunt your opponents and draw them into emotional responses which will tend to make them look foolish and overly motivated, and generally render their material somewhat less coherent. Not only will you avoid discussing the issues in the first instance, but even if their emotional response addresses the issue, you can further avoid the issues by then focusing on how ‘sensitive they are to criticism.’

      Now troll off, there’s a good clown.

    71. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dr Jim
      It might be a good idea if you too read what people actually say, rather than Peffers total lack of comprehension of it, and accidental or even worse, deliberate twisting of it for his own arcane and definitely NOT pro-Indy purposes. Here’s what I DID say:

      It’s the same as those who are determined to keep Indy Ref 2 in front of the SNP to make it difficult for them to backslide

      difficult for them to backslide

      You see that Dr Jim? Can you point out WHERE I said the SNP were backsliding, or actually had any intention to backslide?

      No wonder so many good posters have give up posting on this fucking forum. Peffers attacks them and people support the troll. Kind of like supporting Rock, basically.

      I’m off, fucking waste of time.

    72. Tom says:

      Please, please, please, please, let there be another EU ref and let the overall vote be remain but England vote leave.

      I want to see Nigel Farage’s indignation, hopefully he’ll explode live on telly.

    73. Sarah says:

      @golfnut at 4.28: thank you for the reminder of all the good things going for us. You’re right – Scotland has loads of assets and they will be used wisely when Scotland is restored.

      BUT Brexit will still mess up businesses which export because of having higher tariffs, and live-crustacean exports due to tariffs and border controls. It’s these smaller businesses which will be hit first and proportionately worst, I think [I’m no expert!].

      Of course this is a small price to pay compared with having to fight physically for our rights as a free country but it would be everything to people [including my neighbours]in those business sectors. And the current inhumanity to people on benefits should not last a day longer than it needs to.

      It is a good thing the decision isn’t down to me.

      As for countering the MSM, the best idea I’ve seen that we can do individually, is order extra copies of The National and deliver them around the district [with a tag saying it is a complimentary copy] – surely most people will look at a free paper? [But just remembered the BTL here a few days ago about the lady buying a free bottle of water with the Torygraph and telling shop assistant to keep the paper!]

      What I’d like Keith Brown to do is take lying papers to court [as the Rev did].

    74. Tam the Bam. says:

      TD @ 5-16pm

      You seem to be forgetting that in the scenario you present The Scottish Governments current mandate from Holyrood to seek a second Independence Referendum could no longer be sustained since by voting REMAIN in a second EU Referendum ,’a material change in circumstances’ would no longer pertain (assuming a revocation of Article 50 would be sought) which was the reason Holyrood voted for Indyref2 in the first place.

    75. Ian McCubbin says:

      The hypocrisy is how I would put it. same paper when we lost in 2014 with a vote of 48% for independence. We were well beaten and there should not be another referendum in a generation .
      How times change and the same numbers mean a whole lot of something else.
      I must just be too much a number and shapes guy, as I would call this spin and lying.
      But that is just me.

    76. robertknight says:

      The Dreary Retard… Utter journalistic pish and drivel!

    77. Golfnut says:

      @Tam the Bam,
      The material change sited in the SNP manifesto as an example was indeed Brexit, but it was an example, just one of many reasons that could be sited as justification for Indy 2.

      @ Sarah.
      You are absolutely correct that many people will suffer if Brexit is inflicted on Scotland, I in no way intended to belittle or downplay just how bad it could be, but the coming storm is one reason for indy, the other side side of the coin is just what Scotland has going for it, to little is said of what our potential is, and for me, the future of our kids, is by far the best reason for pushing westminster into the abyss.

    78. twathater says:

      I agree with the many posters who say the SNP SG should ignore liebour and lib dumbs invitations to support a brexshit ref 2 , not only should they ignore these weasels pleas but they should attack publicly their duplicitous actions , when they are constantly proclaiming that they are TOTALLY against a indy ref 2 .

      They should be highlighting that these brit nat parties ONLY care about the union and are willing and eager to sacrifice Scotland’s interests and people irrespective of how Scots voted

      English people voted in and elected this shower of tory ars*wipes , they also voted for brexshit and all it contains it is not up to us or the SNP SG to protect or save them from their own stupidity , what’s more irrespective of the outcome in or out Scotland and Nicola would be blamed and even more vilified by the opposing sides , there is no good outcome for us , liebour and the lib dumbs would either claim credit if they won or turn the SNP SG in to pariahs . I vote tell them to F OFF

    79. Sarah says:

      @Golfnut 11.13: no offence taken. I followed your reasoning it’s just I’m frightened to leave it too late and allow more time for the anti-Scotland’s – Equal- status forces to get organised.

      I know Scotland can be a perfectly sound, socially-just, country, and rather wealthy, but I have my worries about those opposed to the perfectly reasonable idea of Scotland being free to run itself.

      As I said, probably a good thing that the decision isn’t left to me!!

    80. Tam the Bam. says:

      Golfnut @ 11-13pm 16th Aug.2018

      Indeed there may be other scenarios as you say but THE CURRENT MANDATE was delivered by Holyrood under the ‘material change of circumstance’ presented by Brexit….that’s my point.

      As I wish to see the mandate preserved AND utilised ..I would not wish to see Article 50 revoked.



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