The art of selection
Here’s the Herald today on YouGov’s latest independence polling:
All absolutely true. But is it the whole truth?
Above is the whole of the relevant data from YouGov’s Scotland tracker, and alert readers will have instantly noticed a couple of things about it. First, the highly-leading formulation of the question, including the preamble with its talk of “Scotland leaving the United Kingdom” and use of the distorting “if the referendum was tomorrow” premise, both of which tip the balance towards the status quo.
But secondly, the story’s somewhat selective use of data.
The article highlights the lack of change between January and December, and the extremely small one-point change between January and September. But for some reason it omits the November and August data, which paint a rather different picture.
If you compare January to November, the Yes campaign has made up five points of ground in seven weeks. Compare it to August and the advance is eleven points in five months. So from four available comparison points, why pick out only December and September, the two that present an image of stasis that’s at odds with all the other recent polls showing significant movement towards Yes?
You’d have to ask the Herald.
The Herald is getting more overt about its biased position with its daily scaremongering stories, trumpeted by Gardham, Settle and Rowan.
I’ll answer for the Herald; it suits our Unionist, scare mongering narrative to demonstrate that there is no increase in support for independence, even though we had to use snippets of data rather than all of it.
Thus, the Herald knows best what’s good for you. So stick with us while we stick with the status quo.
Oh, by the way, that 1.5 trillion pounds of debt is the least of your worries. Glasgow Rangers are thinking about hiring a new cleaning lady to work 2nd shift on Fridays.
Aye, Michael Settle seems to have ascended to prominence at the Herald in recent weeks, with Magnus Gardham taking something of a back seat in Nat-bashing. Maybe he’s just not credible any more.
The data tables for this poll seem to be unavailable, so we don’t know how the method as to how these figures have been arrived at. The Herald have just lifted the numbers off the Yougov site.
so with the BBC hardly pretending to be balanced now, even worse since they found they were under academic scrutiny, the only paper leastways balanced is the Sunday Herald. We (yes) have one journalist on the Daily REcord Joan McAlpine. What can we do to get the media to at least start to play fair? A letter to the United Nations?
Worth pointing out that no one has any idea who this poll was commissioned for.
A cynic may suggest it was someone on the Pro Union side, disappointingly for them it showed the gap shrinking by 5% in the immediate aftermath of the White Paper launch.
Which of course went against the BT narrative that the WP ‘wasn’t a game changer’.
Have the full data tables been issued ?
Rev, I’ve noticed a lot of unnamed authors of articles in the Herald of late.
The dead giveaway is the unmistakable mealy writing style of Gardham.
Back to school.
Draw graphs to see the trend. Use excel for best fit. Yes goes up, No goes down. Do not believe don’t know and won’t vote is constant. Begs the question as to why these categories are lumped together.
I can’t be bothered for now. Time to walk the dog. Get more sense from him than polls in the Herald.
YouGov have a tendency to sample from the whole of the UK rather than just Scotland when it comes to their independence polls. And then they weight it incorrectly on top of that.
And the Herald is also highly selective when it comes to enforcing its own comments house rules.
If you can be bothered to read them (http://www.heraldscotland.com/misc/comments)
you might ask yourself how trolls like John MacIntyre get away with having their puerile rants published at all.
We all know who uses YouGov polls…..
im sure their is a lot of journalists thinking shit wings will take the piss out of my whitewash gover(to take controll)ment(mind) status quo.
Just had a flick through a free Scotsman in a Costa (I won’t give them any of my money).
It’s in full-volume BT playbook mode e.g. Brian Wilson earning a crust from the Jim Sillars rumblings/ramblings re currency. Also BP, also Bannockburn.
The speed with which the MSM are now recycling the BT Fear stories says that they must be getting really worried.
I left an “Aye Right” flyer inside the Scotsman …
REV, do you know the bliddy cost of a phone call tae Gadnsk,ah canny afford tae keep phoneing them fur conformation on Prof Cuntice or anybody else,s manipulated pole result,s.
Viz Top Tip..
Polling companies – can’t be arsed conducting a poll in January? just use December’s figures instead. They’ll be close enough!
Great that you pointed this out REV, however there is, in my view a bigger agenda. Which is something becoming more and more apparent to me. That is that if they tie the actual Referendum question constantly with their negative data, the subliminally create a negative for the question itself, in an attempt to create a wider negativity against the question itself in the mind of voters.
I think that is what their psychologists are engineering, and it is deeply devious and cruelly deceptive.There is NO area they will not use against us, we need to be steely resolute in our determine to win. There is NO democracy in our referendum and I hope it bites them in the ass!
chalks says:
Yes, and we know who owns and runs them.
It’s like the whole MSM is fighting tooth and nail to hold back any positive momentum, gathering from the upsurge for Yes in the polls.
They wont stop it though, they are liars and they have been found out in the court of public opinion.
I sent a copy of the article about the Labour party signing up people as gifts, to ‘Political Scrapbook’ be interesting to see what they do with it, as it’s the kind of story they thrive on.
@G H Graham
Thus, the Herald knows best what’s good for you. So stick with us while we stick with the status quo.
Too late, cancelled my 32-yr old subscription a few months ago
@GH Graham 11.11,I,ve come to the conclusion that J Mac Intyre,is in fact a Journalist, he pop,s up on every paper,s comment,s,he got short shift on Yes Scotland site,& on Wing,s,its not worth the bother now commenting on their story,s,I dont feed their ego,s.
Radio Scotland Scottish Ministers Questions . The Secretary of State for Portsmouth , Lies just tumble out !!! God it makes me mad ,
@Patrick
“It’s like the whole MSM is fighting tooth and nail to hold back any positive momentum, gathering from the upsurge for Yes in the polls”
Yes, and there’s a real sense in the last few days that what many of us have envisaged is coming to pass. Forget the illusion that ‘Better Together’ is any sort of coherent campaign – judging by last Friday’s efforts they are a shambles of Tories, students who really ought to know better, and the deeply benighted/bigoted.
No, ‘Better Together’ was, is, and shall be until the 18th September the BBC/MSM. That’s why it’s important to continue to ridicule the output of the BBC/MSM because once that perception of dismissive hilarity gains traction with Joe Public there is nothing of substance underpinning ‘Better Together’.
I cancelled my Herald a while back and I will never return. They don’t seem to care about sales though. They seem happy just to push their party line.
Do YouGov still weight to the 2010 election? Without the data it isn’t possible to say much about the poll. At 33% it is a bit lower than the others but if weighting was removed would it be radically different to recent polls?
Aye, they’re a twisted lot, Scottish journalists. No wonder, though – 300 odd years of crawling would make it pretty hard for anyone to get up onto their feet. I just wish they would say so, though. Sort of a health warning.
If all this gigantic relentless vote no pressure actually works, which one of them will have the “IT WOZ US WOT WON IT” headline 19th Sept? Herald’s too sneaky, Scotsman maybe, Sun up in court, Express and Mail too creepy, Press and Journal here in ABZ jaw dropping vote no/anti SNP bias but think they are too klassy. Times and Guardian pretend nothing important happens up here no matter what but lovely hols and second homes. Maybe the Telegraph, where finest liggers/swivel eyed loonies scuttle. See that oddity comical Cockers whining about being shouted at in Tesco carpark. The Telegraph, shopping at Tesco, whatever next?
If the information on the YouGov website can be taken literally, then this poll did use the biased preamble, and the last one didn’t (hence why the last one doesn’t appear in the table). If that’s the case, the Herald are wrong and the No lead has fallen by 5% on the last comparable poll, and indeed is lower than in any other poll using the preamble.
We know that the preamble does make a difference to the results, because when YouGov first dropped it the No lead slumped by 10%.
But the headline in the Herald is untrue:
“Two-thirds of voters back Union”
For your info. Completed a Yougov survey 5 weeks ago and along with the Independence question also asked whether I owned a kilt and what I wore under it! I presume that it was a London based paper that commisioned it. Did another one this morning with no daft questions.
Ooh wee evil Cybernat,s,gitting a mention at Scottish Question,s in Westminster, fae that big puddin Carmichiel,an there,s a sprinklin of Curran,s tae.
An as Major Bloodnok wuld say, WE are evil, but I like IT.
opplogies fur stealin yer punch line.
Off topic, or maybe I’m not sure. I had a phone call from Better Together last night. Trying to pin down what it reminded me of, I eventually realised it was this.
If you correct yougov in the long term (back to 2007) to match all other polls (TNS, Comres, ICM, Panelbase, Angus Reid)then the latest one is 36Y / 42 N.
Ronnie
I doubt OBE is a journalist, the standard writing isn’t that great. More like a retired ex pat, a bit peeved and with plenty of time on his hands. His posts seem to be more a personal vendetta against Salmond than anything else. They are so repetitive that I tend to skip them. I think possibly the Herald mods do too 😉
Well spotted James Kelly.
When you compare like with like, it shows that the Yes campaign has cut the No campaign’s lead.
I’m a Cybernat ! Margaret Curran complaining about us again , we are the low life !
Should run a wee campaign to get YES folk from reading and posting on these pro Union rags. It puzzles me why so many knowledgeable, articulate pro indy folk give The Herald the time of day. Leave the OBE’s to talk to themselves!
Oh sorry, I’ve just realised YouGov have updated the table and stuck the Dec 6-9 poll in. The plot thickens. In that case we have no idea which polls used the preamble and which didn’t. Really only polls for which the datasets have been published can be taken seriously, because they provide crucial infornation like that.
Site loading at a snails pace since this article went up.
Must’ve been the MSM tea break.
Scottish Skier
Do you know when the next Panel Base poll is out? That would give us pretty much a full set for early 2014. If it is also around the 37/42 split then I think we can be pretty sure we are preparing for the main haul of this campaign within striking distance.
I am looking forward to watching the BBC/STV antics when they are under the beady eye of the Electoral Commission which in turn is answerable to Holyrood not Westminster this time.
Is this a new ploy of BT? Not publishing data tables, so the cyber nats can’t pour over them?
I thought they always published data-tables….
The Yes vote hasn’t moved outwith the margin of error of any of their polls in 2 years? Aye right. In a range of 7 polls that’s not something you’d remotely expect as there should be much more variance than that.
The YouGov polling has the stink of someone putting their finger on the scales. When they see all the other polling starting to make them look like an outlier as they shift towards yes that’s when you’ll start to see a dramatic shift in YouGov polls imo. That’s the point where it starts to look like they’re useless and that would damage their credibility.
PANIC!!
YouGov polls have been so wrong at critical times that they are worthless and there is no point in paying any attention to them.
HOWEVER…..
The Record today covers the different copy in the UK Sun and the Scottish Sun that was flagged up in Wings yesterday and also points out that with 8.4 % of the population Scotland provides 9.9% of the UK tax take
They should be hugely congratulated. Letter to the Record,pleas
@HandandShrimp, OBE at the Herald is Riderooo at the, well everywhere. Riderooo aka, John Macintyre OBE Woking, AgentC, random vote no cif pop ups etc. It just makes sense that BetterTogether do have UKOK CiF everywhere backing up the rabid vote no ATL but hopefully Rider/OBE is getting paid cash money!
@ronnie anderson
Actually there are two punchlines I use regularly:
“Red peppers in dynamite sauce? I must have been out of my mind!”
&
“Have no fear, I’m down wind”
As you can see they are not unconnected.
(Though are you not thinking of Dick Emery?)
This cybernattery is really considered to be a disease. Very soon we will be required to attend meetings and declare-My name is … and I am a cybernat. We will then have to participate in group therapy.Will we be cured? NEVER.
I think the Herald has given up trying to stem the catastrophic fall in print sales & is focussing instead on attracting on-line advertising. It can only do that of course with a decent volume of click rates.
It would appear that they decided some time ago that the best way of getting higher on-line visitor rates is to post pejorative, fact free, invective headlines just like the Daily Mail/Express/Record etc.
The consequence of course, is that we have lost a Scottish newspaper, once renowned for old fashioned, inquisitive, investigative journalism & in return have end up with a comic.
The Herald is part of SMG (Scottish Media Group). It is owned by Newsquest Media Group which is based in England. Newsquest is owned by Gannett UK Ltd, a subsidiary of Gannett Inc. a company based in the USA.
@Ronnie …
John MacIntyre OBE is a retired senior civil servant who worked for DEFRA. He has chosen sadly, to spent his retirement time constantly on the comments section of wherever he is welcome copy and pasting the same tripe over and over again. I’m sure his gold-plated taxpayer-funded pension plan would allow him to leave the house every once in a while.
O/T Cybernat badge has just arrived.
@jimsie
Off to one such meeting now wearing my brand new Proud Cybernat badge (thanks Ronny).
By the way there is a cure,you can get it on the 19th Sepember, begins with an I and is permanent ;-D
I don’t think these polls are believable, I’d imagine they’ll roll out one of their “neutral” professors on the BBC tonight to analyse how uncertain Scotland is as they trumpet their dodgy poll results :-\ I’m glad I don’t pay for the BBC’s anti-Scottish agenda, so far I have saved £435 & it will be £580 in October, 1 month before the referendum.
Did you know that you can make it illegal for the BBC TV Hectors from even entering your garden gate simply by calling the BBC licensing and telling them that you have removed their presumed right of entry 🙂
Once again the YouGov poll arrives, with its dodgy methodology, to try and change opinion, not reflect it. It’s a headline generator, nothing more.
OBE says stuff and Riderooo says he”s Glesga east end and now he’s Shropshire millionaire. Different stories, exact same vote no stuff with escalating force, wittering vote no up to OBE level outrage.
Do you know when the next Panel Base poll is out? That would give us pretty much a full set for early 2014.
Should be fairly soon, from the Times anyway.
My own analysis has the No edging down towards low 40’s and the Yes edging up from mid to high 30’s. They are approaching long term 2000-2011 parity (4/10 vs 4/10) again. To be honest, IMO, the No lead was soft/false and more a reaction to what people perceived was the correct thing to say coupled with a bit of fear.
I predict that the next run of polls from AR, ICM, Panelbase and even TNS (focus on the No here) will scare the bejesus out of BT. They are already getting nervous as an ‘apparent’ 20 point lead in late 2012 (when the EA was signed) has dropped to a rather small one which should soon vanish.
What we are seeing is a repeat of 2007-11 and it is about acceptance of radical change as per the Scott Minto (I recall?) article on wings.
In 2009, SNP were polling up to 40%, then this collapsed as people panicked about the immediate prospect of radical change – the return of the Tories. In desperation, the 2010 vote swung to Labour in an attempt to preserve the status quo(SNP were polling 30% here but only got 20%). It failed, the Tories returned. Acceptance followed, then positive feelings about pushing for more devo/indy and so the swing to Labour collapsed rapidly and people voted SNP.
We are seeing the same thing in Y/N polls. The euphoria of the SNP win in 2011 caused a modest swing to Yes, with the Yes going ahead of the No. Then, as the huge reality of what may happen / the implications of independence started to dawn on people, they shrank back from it partly. Demonisation of indy added to this by creating a shy factor. The EA saw the peak of this fear/reluctance as it marked the beginning of the next ‘acceptance’ stage; there would be a referendum…Scotland could become independent.
As the world has failed to end, people are now increasingly less fearful and see independence as something that can happen. They are also starting to look upon it – the radical change that they once shrank from – favourably as a change that looks good, i.e. what happens after the acceptance stage.
We are moving into 2014 with the No largely exhausted and Yes just gearing up. Going to be fun.
It’s human nature for radical change. First there is resistance/reluctance/fear, then acceptance as the change becomes inevitable, then an increasingly positive view of the new future as it is re-evaluated, before finally support for that change / going with it.
Derek Bateman’s latest;
http://derekbateman1.wordpress.com/2014/02/05/bob-bob-bobbing-along/
Fuzzy bear Carmichael hiding behind his leader Dave the rave at PM Questions.
It’s the first time Carmichael has been on tv and didn’t make an erse of himself. Mark you it looked as if his head was back in islay.
@scottish_skier
Great post, fair gave me a warm feeling of “here we go!” there!
Regards your plot….Camerons playing a blinder!
Thanks as ever SS, your posts are always a wee confidence boost.
Just been over to Prof. Curtice’s blog to see if he’s done any analysis on this poll but no luck. Hopefully he’ll be working on it and have something up later.
Now that is a post to get me through the day 🙂 … thanks SS!
Sorry Rev, cannot be bothered commenting on this load of drivel, most polite word I can come up with.
Can I use your good offices to say thanks to Ronnie Anderson, got my badges this morning.
If I was running BetterTogether/BBC/ProjectFear from London, I’d be asking the likes of Sir Gordon Brewer and co, why exactly all their best efforts have not made any difference to any poll in Scotland.
If I was that oil dealer that gave BetterTogther.com so much hard earned dirty money, I’d be asking Blair McDougall why he hasn’t made any difference to any poll in Scotland. “At least we’ve held vote YES down Sir”, is the likely panicky answer from McDougal and whoever it is that think they own the BBC in Scotland.
@Vronsky (11.50) –
Great clip. First time I’ve seen it.
What was the BT ‘pitch’ anyway?
sorry if this is more relevant to the previous article but Wee ginger dug has a good article regarding “Uncle Bob” it looks like he has been digging some more dirt on the subject.For example links between Uncle Bob, Chris Paton and “lord” George Robertson.
http://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2014/02/05/things-that-make-you-go-hmmmm/
GH Graham – it is completely beyond me why people post in the Herald to give them ammunition for their putative advertisers. Why bother with people like MacIntyre who, as said, cuts and pastes all over the place, and of course his OBE has ensured that he will be a lackey until the end of his days – they’re not daft these pretend Empire runners! I’m embarrassed that he claims to be from my home town. Finally I really wish people would stop posting in the Herald and any other unionist rag. Even try if for a couple of months and see if affects their objectivity!
What would the result be with the following question?
“If there was a referendum tomorrow on Scotland becoming an Independent Country within the United Kingdom and this was the question, how would you vote?”
Given that the status of the monarchy is not on the ballot paper, in what way would Scotland be leaving the United Kingdom? And given that a giant chainsaw is not going to sever the landmass, Scotland would not be leaving Great Britain either. So, you can have UK, GB and Independence.
Semantics – or way to tell a different story.
Rev rev, kin we no gie that injinn Bobcrow & his tribe
some fire water,an cut the lines of comunication of the
Teleghraph,och ah fur goat,its a box bed ah hiv,an barrowman stole ma jaikit.
So Bob (can’t type that without thinking of Blackadder) and Lord George “kill nationalism stone dead” Robertson are buddies.
The plot thickens…..into lumpy gravy
So, if you get your news or any other information from the internet and happen to reply in the MSM online Forums you are a Cybernat.
They are trying to demonise the internet and anyone who tries to seek information there FFS.
“Ooooooh, if you go online to get information BEWARE for that is the domain of those scary-wary Cybernats who will assimilate you. Best not go there–just get all your news from trsuted sources like the MSM and auntie BBC.”
This is what they are trying to do becasue they have to do this because they know it is the only information outlet they do not and cannot control. Solution? Demonise it. Make it a scary place where you will be subject to a torrent of abuse from those Cybernasties. Their ploy is as transparent as glass.
Hopefully most sensible people will ask themselves the obvious question: “Why are they warning me about cyber-space; about cybernats? Is it because I should be scared of them or is it because THEY are scared of them?”
Cyber-space is the only place left in this debate where there is still freedom of speech, where people can learn of the lies being peddled to them by the print and broadcast media. THAT is why cyber-space and anyone who engages in this debate in cyber-space have to be demonised.
Don’t let them win. Our very democracy is at stake here.
Gannett Inc. a company based in the USA.
Actually Langley Virginia. Next door neighbour is, quite coincidentally, the CIA HQ.
Ever read USA Today? It is a tabloid style banal newspaper of multiple sections and is, I believe, a best seller in the Mid West (Republican states) as it also does local news, sports both local, regional and national and a Reader’s Digest type of pared down international news.
They also own TV franchises, I think.
Aye shrimp….nae wanting to go down an Alex Jones tin foil hat route.
But Dud Bubley is a Bilderberger along with his close pals D Cameron & G Osbourne
Just a complete coincidence I’m sure 🙂
@ Dcanmore,should thar no be DEEFRA that MC Intyre wiz wie,lol.
USA TODAY, online
http://www.usatoday.com/
@Dcanmore posted to early, ah dont think he,s fae Woking either,ah think he,s fae Sleeping Hollow.
Well that’s the last of my family now swung behind YES. My West of Scotland DR reading Labour diehard father finally turned to YES. He was hard going, jeez, but at the other end of the scale my born and bred in Bethnal Green uncle, who recently retired up here with my Scottish aunt, was a YES, without hardly any prompt from me.
We get there at different speeds and for different reasons but Im very proud of my family today.
just watched pmqs, please vote yes everyone, please.
@Bill McLean 1:23pm
IMO the reason why people post to newspaper websites when they don’t agree with articles is to show that they don’t agree with them and that other opinions are possible. What you seem to be advocating is complete non-participation in any forum other than the ones you already agree with.
I like it on here, and I thoroughly enjoy the comments which have educated me on various occasions. But it’s an echo chamber of people agreeing with each other for the most part. There’s differences in tone etc, but there’s general agreement. Now there’s absolutely a place for that. People referred to articles on here who partake in the reading of the bottom half of the internet and are undecided are liable to come away with a massively different opinion than they started with if they’re at all persuadable. But the first time I heard of this site was I think from one of the commenters on the Guardian. If people were not engaging on any place that has an editorial line which disagrees with them I’d not have found this site in the first place…
You engage with people. You try to understand their point of view, even if you disagree with it, and then you try to persuade them to your side. That’s completely my impression of what people are trying to do when commenting elsewhere. That’s a good thing.
@Jimsie.12.14, Frued himself could,na help us even with his assistant Clement tae help him.Am A Cybernit,natterin tae Cybernats an am OK.
It was worse than this, the poll appeared on line with a headline “two thirds of Scots support the Union. I then sent in a comment asking when 52% became two thirds”
The comment never appeared but I got an email from the Digital Editor agreeing the headline was misleading and that it had now been changed!
@ Bill McLean – I used to comment a lot on the Herald but now just occasionally and never to OBE.
I think it was useful as a lot of folk do not use the net and I do think it helped some more women, in particular, to come out in favour as a couple said they had been persuaded by ‘polite’ rebuttal of some rubbish that had been written – it proves we’re not all ‘vile cybernats’.
O/T at work today one of the guys spoke aloud in the staff room – saying the No campaign want to change their campaign name from No as it’s too negative and he said maybe they should call themselve ‘haven’t a clue’.
I haven’t been there long but it is the 1st time anyone has mentioned the referendum.
Also, long term, there is a generational pattern to what is happening. This was quite well illustrated in BBC2’s ‘Smoking Gun’.
1945 = End of the war in Europe. Baby boomers. Post war consensus. Peak of Britishness in Scotland
+16 = 1961 > = Generation X. The 60’s. The empire dying rapidly. The beginning of the end for the Tories in Scotland. First rise of the SNP which led to…
+17 = 1979 = First (overruled) devolution referendum. Millennium generation. Thatcher. Final end of the empire. Death of the Tories in Scotland.
+18 = 1997 = The 1997 devolution referendum. Generation Z. The Scottish Parliament. New right-wing Labour. Death of Labour in Scotland. Second rise of the SNP.
+17 = 2014 = Scotland’s date with destiny.
Radical generational change is commonplace in human society.
Can I go o/t for a wee minute? I was concerned when I heard on the lunchtime news that Vince Cable was saying that RBS would be likely to move its headquarters from Edinburgh to London in the event of a Yes vote. So I phoned RBS to ask them if this was the case.
Spoke to a very nice man in the media department who was at pains to point out that RBS is taking a politically neutral stance in the independence debate and that it is their position that the independence debate is a matter for the Scottish people. He said that Vince Cable is voicing a personal opinion only and is not speaking for RBS. Further, RBS has made no decision and has no plans to move its headquarters.
He added that RBS will be making a statement about it on Facebook and Twitter.
Just as well, as otherwise, I’d be closing my account pronto.
I know that the two ” quality” newspapers in Scotland have suffered losses but I would dearly like to know if Tunnocks , Mackies ,Mones and Baxters have suffered any market reductions .
I haven’t eaten a wafer or a teacake for quite some time and I’m kind of hoping that my sacrifice has not been in vain.
I suppose I could add to the above 2014+ = Generation i
The fact that we cybernats get so many mentions in so many quarters means that we are having an impact.
We need to encourage more to take up their keyboards…OK I know there are a lot of us but you can’t have too much of a good thing 😉
Don’t complain. The longer the unionists keep kidding themselves on, the bigger the margin will be.
Jeannie; hadn’t heard that particular gem, but for your actions on it…
Brilliant, genuinely brilliant.
@scottish_skier
1945..
+16 = 1961 …
+17 = 1979
Now, there are 2 types of people.
Those that can count.
Those that cant count
and those that cant count.
🙂
O/T But Westminster this week really are desperate to counter the swing to Yes shown in the recent TNS poll. Now its Vince Cable warning that RBS will “inevitably” up sticks and move to London if Scots vote Yes, as managers would want to “domicile where your bank is protected against the risk of collapse”.
Ah so banks only headquarter in large countries do they Vince?, tell that to Switzerland, Luxemburg etc etc.
http://archive.is/EcOcq
desimond.
Excel related typo. 16,18,18,17…
😉
But you caught my drift…
@Dorothy Devine
Maybe Boyd Tunnock was another cybernot speaking “on his personal behalf” as the Tunnocks Company website sure seem very keen to highlight their Scottishness without a mention of the UK in sight
Progressing from local nibbles to national institutions, Tunnock’s biscuit products have acquired the proud status of genuine Scottish icons.
To many, the Tunnock’s name evokes pleasant memories of their youth…that longed-for snack straight after school…that Granny treat on Sundays…and the desire not to waste a single crumb. On walks down memory lane, Scots often encounter a wafer, a snowball, a log or a teacake.
It’s a nostalgic taste of Scotland that not only thrills contemporary appetites, but industry judges, too. Winning Europe’s prestigious Candy Kettle Award recently was proof that Tunnock’s popularity is as potent as ever.
I think we’d be well shot of any bank that is (or considers itself) “too big to fail”.
@Jeannie, that’s very interesting and needs to be spread far and wide.
This is the latest in a line of folk getting threatened with losing their jobs in the event of a Yes – despicable scare mongering.
@ jeannie,
I got out of RBoS a number of years ago. I didn’t want to be contributing to Fred Goodwin’s pension as an RBoS customer, as well as a taxpayer.
Nationwide, or Airdrie savings bank are two good options, and it’s easy to switch.
dorothy,
I hope so, I haven’t had a caramel wafer for sooo long now.
@Dorothy.
I’ve never, ever bought bras from that woman.
Interestingly, I have had those figures in my polling spreadsheet from December. There are question marks all over this.
I am disgusted with the biased reporting. I want to know what all these NO voters , especially from the political parties, are going to do or say when we gain independence. Surely there must be some labour, Tory and lib dem politicians out there with thoughts of their own and do want to say YES. It will be interesting to see them squirm when the result is announced and they want the same people they disagreed with to vote for them. Yes I am an optimist!
@HelenaBrown, and Im sure you,ll wear them with pride,love U.
@rog_rocks
Does that really work? Didn’t think they cared much about right of entry.
I’ve had letters from them since cancelling my licence years ago asking me to confirm that I no longer have a TV. (Perhaps desperately hoping they can squeeze some cash out of someone for dodging the fee!)
(Actually I still have a TV, but no means of receiving a signal, which legally still counts as not needing a licence, so I’m ok anyway. TV is handy for film nights!) 🙂
I just ignore them though. So far they haven’t even bothered sending anyone over to check in two or three years.
Not even seen any of the (possibly mythical) TV detector vans around…
I’d advise everyone in the world to at least try going without TV for a bit, read a book or even go online instead.
I really didn’t miss it as much as I thought I might 😀
And I can actually think straight without all that propaganda doing my head in!
If RBS announce they are moving I’ll definitely close my account. Been a customer for 20+ years.
I simply do not understand their strategy any more. They need to sell or ‘ring fence’ their global investment banking activities.
I think the traditional retail side of RBS is good (despite recent IT problems).
@Oneironaut,
Detector vans only worked with Cathode Ray Tube TV’s. Since most(all) TV’s are now flat screen, detector vans just can’t detect what you are watching.
@desimond
The “Computer Geek” version:
“There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don’t!”
(Sorry, couldn’t resist!) 😉
Also the “Proud Cybernat” badge just arrived!
(Oddly enough it’s my birthday today, so at least I got one present! hehe) 😉
Thanks! 😀
For God’s sake, what’s Vince Cable up to ?
maybe we should point out yet again that the US Government put more money into the bail out than the UK government.
So using Cable’s logic, RBS should be relocating to Wall Street.
Remember the New Statesman article on who really bailed out UK banks ?
http://www.newstatesman.com/2010/12/financial-british-money-fed
Thanks for that @marcia ,
Used D Bateman,s article to post on facebook ! Let friends see what B Dudley really says when he,s not politicking !
I’m more worried about losing my job in the event of a No. Our counterpart organisation in England and Wales is contracting and shedding staff like snow off a dyke as a result of all the cutbacks. The Scottish government has so far supported us staying at current strength. However, everybody is worried that we won’t be able to resist cutbacks here because of the English situation.
Colleagues talk about this, and I want to say that our best hope is a Yes vote in September because after that there will be no particular reason why we should follow England as opposed to anywhere else. And we’ll have more money too. But I’m aftaid of being accused of politicising the situation, or being attacked by colleagues with covert Better Together sympathies.
Me, I’d just retire if they started playing silly buggers. But I want to work in an independent Scotland!
@gerry parker
I thought it was something like that. Screen emissions from CRTs.
Been trying to figure out how those detector vans could possibly work since I first heard about them.
Some people have told me they were just a scare tactic (stick a few aerials on top of a van, slap an official logo on the side and drive it around slowly, who’s going to question them?)
Bet they got a few false positives from computer monitors.
Being skint I’m still using CRT TVs and monitors in here. If anyone asks I just say I’m “old-school”! 😉
@Oneironaut,
I recall hearing that it was the magnetic field generated by the beam bender, but I’d have to check wi ma pal Dave, who knows all about these things.
We should have a “We Urney Scared” contingent at the next rally.
Let them all know it isn’t working.
@Oneironaut @Scottish_skier
Magic!
With stats, I think we should always remember:
There are 2 types of people in the world.
1: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Angus Robertson puts the Secretary of state for Portsmouth on the spot by showing him the Times pink sheet FT report about just how wealthy Scotland is. Camrmichael goes on to call nationalists cybernats, Davidson, Campbell, Sarwar and Curran are all there, the usual suspects.
Angus Robertson mentions the poll you speak of Rev, Carmichael, blanks it and promotes his own poll, typical.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/house-of-commons-26050515
Since 2007 it has been inevitable that Scottish Independence was going to happen.
Indeed I suppose you could go back to Winnie’s victory in Hamilton.
However the 2007 date confirmed the inevitable , all that was left was the when.
I still hope in my heart that it happens on Sept 18th.
However ,even if BT and their allies in MSM & BBC cheat their way to victory ,it will happen.
Neither the SNP or wider Independence Movement is going away until the day of Independence.
The worry for me is if we are cheated out of our democracy this time, what will be the feeling on the street of those that feel their democracy was cheated.
I neither condone or advocate violence ,however it does worry me.
If some feel the democratic route is corrupt what might they do in desperation.
Over the years the only thing that has ever got Westminster to behave normally to countries wishing to secede has been the barrel of the gun.
Are these idiots in the Westminster bubble willing to risk that just so they can continue to slurp at the trough?
My suspicions too. I’ve discussed this on a number of occasions over the years but never really come to any definite conclusion. Deep down, I think it was all a complete fairy story.
Dorothy Devine
Aint had any tunnocks products since they came out for the Union, Aldi’s do a reasonable copy at about half the price…
Mackies, aint bought any ice cream either, anyway the
Arran Dairies Ice Cream is better and the MD is a YES man….
Herald, Used to get it every day, now only get the Sunday Herald, first couple of weeks was difficult breaking the habit of reading it cover to cover, now its no problem which is handy as we have had hardly any boats this winter..
BBC – Don’t watch and don’t pay.
BP Although the retail outlets are franchised and not directly owned by BP, I will still boycott them as a matter of principle.
Morag: It was definitely possible, technically. They probably did have a working van or two to show gullible reporters. But I seriously doubt it was actually a useful way of detecting / enforcing the license fee, so I’d say it was done as a stunt, a scare tactic.
Jingly Jangly….you can always go incognito and read The Herald online escaping their limit counter.
As for TV Detector vans
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2445153/Are-TV-detector-vans-just-cunning-trick-For-decades-claimed-trap-licence-cheats-In-fact-theyve-led-single-prosecution.html
@ronnie anderson 1.50pm
I don”t think Freud would consider us cybernuts but would certainly be baffled by union jocks who talk their country down at every opportunity.
Even Wattie Scott (an ardent unionist)was moved to write-
“Breathes there the man with soul so dead
who never to himself has said
this is my own, my native land.”
With regard to the RBS. I think there is a possibility they will move to London:
– we vote for an iScotland;
– we stay within the EU;
– the EU introduce measures to curb banking’s greed;
– England then votes to leave the EU;
– RBS move to HQ in England.
I also think that’s why David Cameron keeps talking about an EU vote in 2017 – Scotland will have gone by then and they will want to keep the City of London as powerful as they can. If they are in the EU they won’t be able to do that.
Here’s Vince Cable scaremongering, claiming Scotland would lose RBS to London (Is that a bad thing?)Scotland would also have to impose severe cuts to public spending, and Scotland would have to put up the price of a stamp, after independence.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10619390/Scotland-after-independence-spending-cuts-stamp-hikes-and-no-RBS-says-Vince-Cable.html
Just back from getting my shopping in Lidl and Asda. Noticed a few folk round a table in Asda on the way out and on having a keek found it was a ‘bite the ballot’ event.
This is good stuff and I would encourage all here to make sure your registered to vote.
http://archive.is/P8mzq
PS:
Continued to ignore those things on my won’t eat list like Baxter’s beetroot/ soups and the tunnocks, though I dearly love them. Topped up my car with diesel, having cut my BP card in two yesterday.
Radio and tv off and making vichyssoise soup hmm! That’s leek, tatties and onions to us plebs. Goggles on no tears.
Click in later for the latest ‘horror story’ 🙂
Very O/T now but interesting!
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/statements_involving_tv_detector
@Oneironaut; Yes it does work though I haven’t done it yet as I look forward to them coming. I may film them being told to beat it and I certainly will refuse to sign their confession. I have 6 TV’s now but none of them installed or used for broadcast TV.
It doesn’t actually matter if you own a TV or an aerial or any other devices, just as long as you don’t install or use your equipment to watch or record broadcast TV as it is broadcast, this is all a TV license is for.
Without a license you can still use a TV as a PC monitor and watch demand TV such as the BBC i-player 🙂 play games, browse the internet and or use it to receive from a Blu ray player, DVD player or video player or any game console (x-boxes etc) or even attach your aerial and listen to the radio through your TV, who needs the propaganda, X-factor, big brother and all the other rubbish that goes with Broadcast TV!
Breaking news Rev.
Faslane Naval base staff have voted to go on strike, over a pay rise, and we’re not even independent yet. A blow to the no camp in my eyes this is, when they can’t even pay the staff to service the jewel in their crown.
@gerry parker
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Eck_phreaking
But the BBC don’t have them, they just trundled around in empty vans… under freedom of info the BBC confessed that detector vans had led to zero convictions, people are caught by being fooled into signing a confession which they are told is a caution.
Wonder how the media can twist the strike at Faslane to be anti indy. Im still suspicious about the damaging Grangemouth fiasco.
Why does asking “if the referendum was tomorrow” distort responses towards No?
@Andy-B,
not all 8,500 of them I hope!
Finally a Tory who admits independence for Scotland would be a complete and utter disaster for David Cameron and Britain, as a whole. Michael Portillo, writing in the Financial Times, went on to say, “Sneering enemies would join up the dots, which would show an unflattering picture of Britain.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/02/04/michael-portillo-scottish-independence_n_4722046.html?utm_hp_ref=uk-politics&ir=UK+Politics
@
rog_rocks.
Very interesting thanks.
@gerry parker, it’s also known as Tempest you can get a demo of it on youtube but I can’t give you the link just now coz I can’t get to youtube from where I am at the moment.
Re Vince Cable.
We’d save a lot of time asking Westminster politicians not what they think Scotland can’t do, but can do. We’re likely to hear a lot less from these blawbags that way.
Still, in this IT age the potential of a rise in stamp prices is, it has to be said, truly terrifying.
Portillo is a smart guy.
@Gerry Parker.
Don’t know Gerry just heard it literally 5 minutes ago on the news.
KraftyKris – Because many are stilling waiting to hear what a No vote brings, just now some undecideds/no’s are in the no camp obviously, but once it is revealed that the unionists plan nothing in the event of a No, maybe a uk wide devo referendum, BUT losing the barnett formula, then they’ll come over to Yes.
That’s why it’s important.
Just had a bit of fun on the Courier site. They are printing the same Cable story, so I entered a comment and offered a link to the Duggy Dug cartoon about the Scottish Pound. The comment was deleted after 5 minutes and the article is now closed to comments.
If there was very scary change tomorrow, would you vote for it? Yours, Prof Curtice at the BBC, aunty Beeb as you are meant to think of us.
Portillo is Thatcher’s love child. A despicable liar. Even declared Salmond was scared of Cameron.
Don’t know if anyone has posted this before,if so I apologise, its a pretty balanced opinion of Scottish independence by will Hutton, worth a read in my book.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/01/snp-referendum-defeat-best-result-britain
“If there was very scary change tomorrow, would you vote for it?” Yours sincerely, Professor Professorson at the BBC, call us Aunty Beeb, impartial, independent, not liars and fearmongerers
Sorry Off Topic
I’ve run up against a few arguments regarding “Scotland being forced into the Shengen free travel zone”.
Does anyone have any data / arguements / links.
I suspect we would not under a reasonable continuation of our existing EU citizenship but I would appreciate any help.
If not here:
then – Clootie8@googlemail.com
O/T but wanted to share this.
I took the plunge and gave my details to my local Yes group recently, offering to help, and tonight I’m taking delivery of Yes newspapers for delivery round my local area this weekend.
I’ve already got a neighbour on board, and hoping the deliveries will lead to more conversations and helpers.
Grassroots!
The polls really have got the Nay Sayers desperate. The scare stories are coming thick and fast, some are mutually exclusive and some are just plain stupid.
I am pretty sure though that come a Yes vote a lot of these people will suddenly be looking to be first in line in an independent Scotland. We should do a suduko a day or something to make sure our memories are in tip top condition.
I actually quite like Michael Portillo although I seem
to disagree with a lot of what he says.
I liked his documentary on Alex Salmond which I thought
showed more respect to our top politician and First Minister than anything I have ever seen from Westminster, the BBC, or any other ‘national institutions’.
Still, I see the Huff Post has Mark Carney’s speech as being a ‘warning’ to Independence. Sheesh!
@rog_rocks
Yeah, I have two TVs (one of which is never switched on), and an ageing CRT monitor (which is kind of on its last legs now, judging by the weird contrast streaks I keep seeing on the picture!)
I just use the TV for watching videos and DVDs on when I’m in the mood for a bit of a film night.
It used to get a signal from a satellite dish, but “Hurricane Stevenston” tore it right off the wall a few years back, so if anyone does come asking I’ll just point out the ragged bit of cable hanging down where it used to be before politely adding that I’d rather beat my head against the wall than watch more BBC propaganda anyway! 😉
Interesting stuff about the detector vans there 🙂
They’d be even more useless nowadays anyway, too much “electronic clutter” being picked up.
I’d heard of Van Eck Phreaking too. Perfect for seeing what those evil Cybernats are plotting online in their bedrooms, hehe.
Just watching the “Debates from the Scottish Parliament ” shocking cutting out of Swinney when he was just starting to talk about the FT report. Then it went to Westminster and a non stop tirade against the SNP and Independence.
Then we go to “Scottish Questions” at Westminster, a totally disgusting rambling outrage against Independence. Mostly from “Proud” Scots, bloody awful stuff. I am so ashamed of these people, not least the “Secretary of Sate for Portsmouth”
We just gotta win this, and chuck these shitbags out.
@dodecostanza,
Great news, keep it up. I’ve just finished delivering a batch in the “Iron Burgh” and looking forward to delivery of my next batch. I fold them twice, make them into bundles of 25 held together with the discarded elastic bands I find on my route( washed before using of course)and stick them into a shoulder bag which holds around 200 – 250.
Great exercise too.
If RBS is 85% owned by the UK taxpayer and 85% of the UK population is based in England that means England owns just over 72% of RBS. Should it not be renamed RBE?
I think HMG should order the TROOPS onto the streets and clear this rabble, and put them in their place. They should never have stopped the old duke of Cumberland.
Nobody will ever hear about it . Since the army is under pressure at the moment we could encourage the pseudo proud Scotch to carry out the clean up and let the real rich proud Scotch lead them with their skirts on.
PROBLEM SOLVED.
@gerry parker
Sounds like a good system, will try it out, cheers.
I’ll be keeping it up till the big day, don’t worry 🙂
I’m in the City of Discovery here btw.
Thanks for the response Chalks, not sure I’m convinced by that argument though. I wasn’t sure whether there was polling data that shows a No vote is more likely if the referendum was tomorrow. It just seems odd that some people would say “No” tomorrow but “Yes” in 8 months.
Better tip. My tame paper-folder (activist with an injured knee) has been folding them twice, with the “Yes” on the outside, then counting them out in 25s and putting each 25 in a polythene sandwich bag. He got a load of these bags, they’re thin and cheap, that are just the length of a folded paper. He puts the papers in with the centre-fold end up.
This is FANTASTIC. The bags fit nicely into the YES satchel, open ends up, and papers can be slid out one at a time without having to extricate them from a rubber band. Or one bag-full can be held in the hand while proceeding, for ease of access. This was invaluable to me on Saturday when it came on heavy wet snow while I was delivering. The poly bags kept the papers dry and clean right until they went into the letterboxes. If it hadn’t been for them, I’d have had to pack it in and lose the only daylight time I had spare for the deliveries.
I can’t recommend this highly enough. Even if the weather is dry, it makes the whole exercise so much easier.
@Jimsie 3.03,naw jimsie that Cybernut is singular, ME, were awe Cybernats / Cybernauticals / Yes men n Women but unless there,s any other claimant,s to being a Cybernut, am the only wan,but there may be quite a lot more of us before we are Independant.
@bunter. Good for you, now if only the rest of us could persuade our family and friends?
I’ve been posting YES newspapers today and came across water board workers today who asked me to sell YES to them. I think they were at the wind up? After saying why should I have to sell Independence to a Scottish person he said I’m voting YES no matter what. My kind of guy,
voting YES for Scotland no matter what the scaremongering press say.
@dodecostanza,
Its good for your mentality and all the exercise is good for your health, forget paying for a gym.
A little tip for you. Take some YES car stickers, declaration form and some copies of the McCrone report, some people want more information and some people need to sign the declaration form to reinforce their resolve 🙂
From people like me, who can smell a rat but cannae count for toffee — thanks for putting this out in plain black and white.
@Morag
Are these sandwiches for elephants?
😉
@gerry parker, well done gerry,I wish ah wiz fit enough tae join you.
@Krafty Kris – Believe it or not, people do go No/Undecided as they are asked their opinion at that precise moment…how can you make a balanced decision when you have no idea what No means?
When support for the union falls below 50%,will the phrase change from “over 50% support the union” to say for instance,”only 49% support the union”?
msean says:
When support for the union falls below 50%,will the phrase change from “over 50% support the union” to say for instance,”only 49% support the union”?
No, it’ll say “Terminal blow for Indy – 49% want to keep the Union”
Proud Cybernat badges arrives safely. Just pinned one to my jacket along side my Wings badge and Saltire pin. 🙂
Swinney states that the £15M or(£12.5M) needed to fully motigate the ‘bed room’ tax will be available. This is in spite of a ‘no deal’ from the UK government.
Swinney will introduce legislation in Scotland if required in order to ensure it happens… Mr Grey cheers from the sidelines and says the SG is now not on pause. Geez!
Anyhoo! Well done SNP.
excuse my spelling there are mitigating circumstances 🙂
Wee162 – maybe you missed my point. Posting in the Herald increases their ability to engage advertisers – a fall in posting may deter some! Engaging is great – but do you think the unionists who post in the Herald are going to change?
Do you think you will change Gardham and the others who are die-hard, establishment goons whose aim is to prevent Scotland having democracy. Why encourage them?
@ Oneironaut
TV detector vans… Any and all ‘radio frequency’ receivers (TVs included) produce a radio signal which is transmitted albeit at very low power. It is this signal that properly equiped detector vans would be able to detect.
You’ll have seen the principle demonstrated in war films with the Germans tracking down and pinpointing the brave resistance operator contacting allied HQ.
Not sure of the specifics of digital equipment but the principles of radio reception is likely to be unchanged. Keep your TV in a lead box and don’t attach an aerial and you should be OK! 🙂
Sorry Rev it’s been a long day. I’m not following your interpretation of these figures. Where do you get the 11 point change from? I really want to believe you.
“Sorry Rev it’s been a long day. I’m not following your interpretation of these figures. Where do you get the 11 point change from? I really want to believe you.”
January: 33 vs 52 = 19 gap.
August: 29 vs 59 = 30 gap.
30-19 = 11.
Media Lens (http://www.medialens.org/) have been tackling corporate and state media bias for years. They’re aware of the recent academic study on Independence referendum coverage so perhaps you could engage with them to raise the visibility of the study.
Every time I see the name “DicK Gaughan” on here I play 5 Hand Reels’ magnificent version of the Freedom Come A Ye. Fair cheers me up by making me greet.
I recommend it to everybody.
Conan I was drinking a very peasant gin when I found your comment – the keyboard is drinking it now.
Jingly I now what the island has been going through because I have been trying to get across on a regular basis .I agree , the island ice cream is most excellent!
Cearc , it’s the tea cakes – my great temptation!
Tempest or Van Eck phreaking
“Did you get it? The public perception is that detector vans work and they are very effective. The BBC has worked long and hard in disseminating this bluster and disinformation. The Commissioner says that if the public ever found out the truth about detector vans that perception would change. In what way? The only logical conclusion is that people would either fall about laughing, or weep at the way they have been deceived.”
http://watchkeeperslog.blogspot.co.uk/2010/08/van-for-all-seasons.html
@gerry parker 2.18pm
Gerry – Airdrie Savings Bank was a good recommendation, but Nationwide? Granted £400 million is not as big as £27 billion but it is still a black hole which could swallow the savings of its depositors
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2344931/PRA-tells-Barclays-Lloyds-RBS-fix-27bn-black-hole.html
@Boorach
Ahh ok, I saw a documentary that explained how those wartime radio trackers worked, complete with a demonstration using a home-made version.
Didn’t know the TV vans were just using the same tech though. Got distracted by CRT emissions 🙂
I don’t have an aerial attached. Think I’ll leave out the lead box though 😉
You’re wee Labour wummin frae England said repeatedly against Fergus Ewing on Newsnight that they don’t need Scottish generated electricity, that they already huv 95% local generation, so basically piss-off.
She’s the Shadow Minister for Energy in the UK set-up – God above, whit are we dealing wi’ here?