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The 51st Absolute State

Posted on August 24, 2019 by

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  1. 24 08 19 08:56

    The 51st Absolute State | speymouth

333 to “The 51st Absolute State”

  1. dunks says:

    Nailed it as always Chris – simply brilliant.

  2. Malky says:

    Cloak and mirrors and playing fast and loose with Scotland and its people. Two shysters. Nice depiction.

  3. cynicalHighlander says:

    Top Dollar.

  4. Fergus Green says:

    Put this on the side of a bus.

  5. Skintybroko says:

    Absolutely brilliant

  6. jimnarlene says:

    Brilliant, unfortunately I could hear those two’s voices as I read it.

  7. Cubby says:

    An absolute cracker Mr Cairns. Got to be right up there with your very best.

  8. Terry callachan says:

    Refused leave to remain in uk

  9. kapelmeister says:

    BoJo looking nervously towards his party leader Rees-Mogg.

  10. ahundredthidiot says:

    Even nailed the truth accessing eyes direction…..excellent piece.

  11. starlaw says:

    Spot on again Chris. . Greenland has a brand new Ruby mine, perhaps this is the Donalds real target.

  12. Robert Louis says:

    Absolutely nailed it.

    Any person who takes GERS at all seriously should be laughed at. The nonsense is beyond stupidity. If we believe GERS, then apparently, Scotland, with 8% of the UK population is responsible for over 60% of the UK deficit. It is just f***ing stupid.

    GERS doesn’t even need debated. GERS is junk, and should be ridiculed over and over again.

  13. kapelmeister says:

    Scotland stuck between a schlock and a hard face.

  14. kapelmeister says:

    Robert Louis@7:48

    That’s it Robert.

    JunkyGERS. Perfect name for it.

  15. Robert Louis says:

    Sorry O/T so early, but this IS important, and very, very disappointing.

    I’d love to know how having a plan B for indy is a bad idea, especially when plan A is a complete non-starter. Unless of course independence was not really your priority, just something you talked about, as a kind of side issue.

  16. Effijy says:

    OK you want Scotland Trumpy.
    England has made fortunes from them these last few generations
    But it looks like most of them have caught on to our game now.
    How about this. We both say that our secret service teams
    Agree that we know Nicola has been storing weapons of mass destruction.
    She is processing nuclear grade Uranium under Holyrood and the nation
    Is ant-fascist.

    You say that you are going to invade to free the people and you get free oil.
    I”ll send in the English army to do your biding and you give your old pal Bojo
    The same deal as Blair and Brown. Every year you arrange business diners at $1,000
    A plate, where I’ll say a few words about how great I am and then you secretly buy
    10,000,000 of my autobiography books on behalf of the US government and send all that
    Lolly to my off shoes account.

    Trumpy says; What about the NHS Deal we were discussing?

  17. Effijy says:

    First Minister’s Independence Petition still growing at 272,115 signatures.

  18. Tartanpigsy says:

    Exactly that, shysters the lot of them.
    Meanwhile the flags are slowly creeping upwards.
    Some help from the Wings gang would bd greatly appreciated.
    We have a figure required by the end of the month which is still a fair bit off in the distance.

  19. Sinky says:

    Lib Dems must be worried about Shetland By election as candidate given a PPB in to-day’s Herald.

    Also very interesting article by Craig Murray on the Alex Salmond stitch up.

  20. chicmac says:

    Great message, one of your best. BoJo is by your extremely high standards, uncharacteristically, a wee bit off or it may just be because it reminded me of Billy McNeil.

  21. Hamish100 says:

    The great contraries.

    Yip we’re too poor but other countries need and want our resources that we are self sufficient in.

    I do think that the SNP should tell the civil servants to revisit how our wealth is created and how our resources are siphoned off.

    Oil on tankers deposited in England is deemed to be taxed in England. Some employers based in England register their assets (including those in Scotland) as created in England. Army pays U.K., navy pays U.K., RAF U.K. Tax collected not Scottish and on it goes.

  22. Rick H Johnston says:

    Chris, that says it all.
    Genius. Pure entertainment too..
    Many thanks for the visual truth.

  23. Golfnut says:

    @ Robert Louis.

    Or you really don’t want your Plan B compromised at this stage, but it does serve as a distraction.

    Chris, first class and oh so apt, the establishment have really boxed themselves into a corner with the GERS con, but the only place it is really working is down south, perhaps it’s deliberate.

  24. Hamish100 says:

    Ot 1

    With Clegg moving Is a new path being made for other papers? Murray’s insight into the Alex Salmond win in the court was illuminating when He claims that Clegg has close links with the senior civil servant in the case. Lose hundreds of thousands of pounds and still employed! Has not Marra MSp got links with Dc Thomson ? Can she help!,,

    OT 2

    The Herald and Tom Gordon. What can you say. In the 70’s 80’s and on I enjoyed reading the Herald. Didn’t always agree what was written but recognised the skill of the journalist or feature writer. Now they have Gordon and Hutcheon. How the mighty have fallen. Do enjoy the Sunday National though.

  25. Macart says:

    Neatly done Chris. 🙂

  26. Bryan Weir says:

    Nice one. ;o)

  27. Dan says:

    I understand it’s the case that within the UK union, no constituent part can have economic advantages over others areas.
    This has recently been discussed within the context of the UK leaving the EU, and particularly in relation to Northern Ireland and the type of border it may have with EU member Ireland.

    If no economic advantages to a particular constituency part of the UK is a constraint of being in the UK union, then Westminster should have been governing in a way that attempts to adhere to that principle.
    Clearly they haven’t and they have allowed that aspect to be breached since the get go a few hundred years ago by facilitating the Kingdom of England to have grown its population from approximately 5 to 10 times that of the Kingdom of Scotland.
    Pish or not, GERS figures exist and are only a relatively recent construct to add to the hard and fast evidence of population growth figures that effectively prove the Union isn’t fit for purpose.


  28. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Chris Cairns – back of the net.

    Very interesting piece by Craig Murray, on the Salmond stitch-up. I get the impression Chief of Staff Lynch might well be the senior Secret Service “sleeper” we have been looking for.

  29. Republicofscotland says:

    Yet again a belter Chris.


    The SNP’s Douglas Chapman comes under attack after discovering a huge group of #BorisBotArmy fake accounts aimed at attacking British citizens who support Scottish independence.

    The 77th Brigades Information Activities group and the II group operatives are thought to be behind the undermining of UK democracy, whilst using taxpayers money to do so.

  30. Frank Gillougley says:

    So good to have you back Chris, I missed your work.
    I’ve just about given up on the politics as lying is now the established Lingua Franca. Thank God for wos.

  31. Morgatron says:

    That wee holiday has refreshed your pencil CC (oh Matron!) an absolute belter Chris. Stu, he deserves a pay rise!

  32. One_Scot says:


  33. HandandShrimp says:

    Good cartoon.

    GERS is going to reap what it sows. People in England are understandably starting to say if we are responsible for 50% of the fiscal deficit then why not let Scotland go. There is a logical disconnect in the messages transmitted that is becoming impossible to ignore.

    In the past the UK has had no qualms about exiting territories that have no value so what is stopping them now?

  34. Fireproofjim says:

    Re GERS
    Here is an example of a massive asset which could benefit Scotland but doesn’t.
    The Lancaster oilfield, west of Shetland, is in Scottish waters. It started large scale production on June 18th at a rate of about 12,000 barrels of light crude oil per day.
    Shuttle tankers have already shipped over a million barrels to Rotterdam for refining.
    The owners, Hurricane Energy, are registered in Kent. The waters west of Shetland are described as Ex-Regio.( to avoid classing the oil as Scottish).
    So all the petroleum revenue tax is classed as coming from this mysterious Ex-Regio land and not from Scotland and, of course, goes direct to the London coffers. As do the profits of Hurricane Energy, if any.
    This is only one relatively minor oilfield. There are many more, and bigger, but it is a good example of how a Scottish asset is classified as a London benefit.

  35. Daisy Walker says:

    That cartoon nails it. Spot on again. They reap what they so and we should certainly play on it.

    Re Alex Salmond – the establishment have made a bit of an error regarding the charges they’ve libelled against him…. by making them so serious, it will mean the trial (if it ever comes to pass) will need to be held in front of a judge AND JURY.

    Any lawyer will tell you – if you have a good ability to speak you case clearly and present yourself well – this increases your chances of being found not guilty.

    It will also give Alex the stage.

    Its as if the British Empire never learn from their mistakes.

    ‘Mon Alex … ‘I am not here as the accused, but the accuser, of a British State dripping with corruption from head to toe.’ To paraphrase the Great John McLean.

  36. birnie says:

    It always surprises me that Scottish Government ministers always appear to credit GERS with some validity before criticising aspects of the methodology or findings. GERS is GIGO, “Garbage In, Garbage Out”. Its purpose is not financial, as its creator, Ian Lang former tory Scottish SoS, explicitly stated, but political – to undermine the parties supporting devolution in the 1980s. When, oh when, will these minsters state up front that the whole exercise is farcical and completely meaningless in practice?

  37. Dr Jim says:

    What’s yer plan B then eh?…. well what we were thinking was maybe….No no no what if plan B doesn’t work what’s yer plan C, c’mon tell us that you must have more plans than just A B and C

    How many plans have you got tell me now or it’s obvious you’re a failure who isn’t confident in your plan A so now you’ve got a plan B which is no better than the first one, look how many of their plans I’m shooting down in flames

    My name is Alistair Darling and I caught you out with that shit before so I’ll send my minions out to do it again

    Then I’ll start on what currency are you going to use if the Scottish pound isn’t accepted …..because it won’t be y’know definitely not, you’ll be forced to join the Euro, so c’mon what’s the currency plan B option….see you haven’t got one have you coz if you did you’d tell us

    Bloody SNP failures with no plan B or C or D or E or…

    My name’s Alistair Darling and I’m here all week to rubbish all the options the SNP have because if they need that many they’re definitely losers

  38. Robert Peffers says:

    @Dan says:24 August, 2019 at 9:31 am:

    ” … I understand it’s the case that within the UK union, no constituent part can have economic advantages over others areas.”

    Just a wee reminder, Dan, that there are only two constituent parts of the United Kingdom. Only the two kingdoms of Scotland and England are the constituent parts of the United Kingdom. Northern Ireland and Wales were, and still are, parts of the Kingdom of England.

    Wales since the Statute of Rhuddlan and all Ireland since The Irish Parliament’s Crown of Ireland act. Both of which events long predate the formation of the union of the two kingdoms that constitute The United Kingdom.

  39. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    Exactly, a nation with 8% of the population and more than half the debit, which is run by a government in Edinburgh which cannot borrow money.

    Half the debit of the UK, aye right I smell shite.

    Apologies for the strong language.

  40. Dr Jim says:

    I’m not a gambler but if I was I’d likely put a bunch of money on there being no Alex Salmond trial at all

    Everybody on the YES side pretty much believes all this is a British stitch up to remove the former FM from being prominant in Scottish politics and if that’s true the best course of action for the British Unionists is for the accusers to withdraw from proceedings just before the trial on some ridiculous stress and strain of it all story and leave the former FM with the dirt hanging around him for all time so their pet newspapers can torture the implications of it to death in column after column of smear forever

    That’s the British thing to do, good old tried and tested he was guilty and we all know it tactics, I mean they can’t have him being found not guilty…. jeez the horror of a Nat winning, Brrrr! perish the very British thought

  41. Ahundredthidiot says:


    I was listening to LBC the other day and an English gent was making this exact point about the two Kingdoms, he made his point very well and suggested Scotland and NI go their own ways…….they cut him off of course.

  42. Robert Peffers says:

    That’s a real humdinger, Chris and has to be your very best to date.

    Now here is a bit of information that most dictionaries don’t know.

    The term, “Humdinger”, comes from the early days of, “Wireless”, broadcasting. Early mains Radio Receivers had a persistent problem due to the mains electricity frequency hum getting through to the speakers. 50 cycles per second in the UK and 60 cycles per second in the case of the USA.

    Then a simple little addition was made to receivers circuits that eliminated this mains hum – “a humdinger”, in fact.

    Every day is a learning day on Wings.

  43. Muscleguy says:


    It isn’t the Ruby mine, it’s the rare earth mine. Greenland is sitting on a huge reserve of rare earth metals. After China stopped the export from it’s mine to keep it in house it cut off the rest of the world. Though a mine in Australia got restarted as prices rose.

    But it got the US security bods worried about being able to keep their technological lead without those elements.

  44. Welsh Sion says:

    Just a reminder.

    Wales is NOT part of England. It has not been for the purposes of statute law of Westminster since 1967 (Welsh Language Act of that year) and the Henrician ‘Acts of Union’ of 1535 and 1542 (aka The Laws in Wales Acts) were repealed by Westminster under the Welsh Language Act 1993 (and subsequent legislation).

    We, to repeat, unlike Scotland, are no longer in union with England. Come and join us, Scotland!

  45. manandboy says:

    GERS. To sum up.

    The purpose of THE ANNUAL GERS REPORT, is to enable England to play the abusive husband role, with one of the classics of marital abuse, ‘If you leave, you’ll be completely on your own, with no money, no job and no friends.’
    And so across Scotland, the majority of the electorate believes that we are too poor to survive independently outside the ‘union’.

    To achieve this, the evidence of Scotland’s wealth has to be destroyed or hidden. This is why no British Prime Minister has ever made any statement about Scotland’s vast oil & gas reserves, so as not to spread awareness of it by drawing attention to it.
    In addition, all figures and statistics about Scotland’s economy are doctored so as to present a false picture, one displaying poverty.
    Another example is the burgeoning renewable energy industry, with its massive electricity generating capacity, through wind turbines in particular, but kept quiet by State propaganda outlets, the BBC and the newspaper industry.

    Scotland is in a deeply abusive political marriage. Getting a divorce is however very difficult, when many Scots are ignorant of their finances and fearful of leaving.

    To England’s way of thinking, Scotland is little more than a possession, but with so much inherited wealth in mineral and natural resources, a possession which England believes cannot be let go.

  46. Doug says:

    Sums it up correctly [unlike GERS]. Liars and charlatans, all backed up by the British nationalist media.

  47. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Robert Louis at 7.59.

    Utter bullshit, Robert and you know it.
    Plan A has been conceded by Labour and the estimable David Mundell.The Electoral Commissino are arguing about the form of words and the time table so they have as much as conceded it.

    And any silly notion that the SNP aren’t aware of alternative avenues means you understand nothing about the SNP.

    Squeaking about Plan B and C merely undermines our strengthening position as it presntly proceeds.

  48. bobajock says:

    I estimate that GERS will be an exam question for historians some 5 years from now.

  49. Robert Peffers says:

    @Dave McEwan Hill says: 24 August, 2019 at 11:39 am:
    Robert Louis at 7.59.

    ” … Utter bullshit, Robert and you know it.
    Plan A has been conceded by Labour and the estimable David Mundell.The Electoral Commissino are arguing about the form of words and the time table so they have as much as conceded it.”

    You are correct Dave, but In one respect I feel the SNP are missing a chance to open up the subject to more public exposure and perhaps also find themselves accused of being closed to open debate when there really is nothing to fear.

  50. Robert Kerr says:

    Mr Peffers,

    May I add to the Humdinger technically.

    The Magnets inn those days were poor and an electromagnet was used in the speaker. This also was used to smooth the DC supply to the set’s valves. It saved the cost of a separate smoothing choke also but the raw DC from the rectifier was very rough and would be heard in the sound output as an AC hum.
    The answer was a second coil in the speaker magnet fed with antiphase AC to counter the hum.

    This was called the Humdinger.

    Dinger is of course derived from an old Scots word.

    “ding the dun deer doon” from the ballad “Jock o` braidislee” populised by The Corries

    Thank you for all your inputs.

  51. uno mas says:

    On the subject of ferries from Rosyth to Europe you will remember that a Scandinavian company started such a service back around 2001/2 ish.

    At that time I was friendly with a chap who worked in the Scottish road haulage business and through him we found ourselves socialising (drinking) with owners, directors and managers from this business.

    One evening I opinioned to one of these types that the new ferry service would be a great boon to his business to which he replied “No we won´t be using that” a reply that left me more than somewhat nonplussed.
    “Why on earth not?” I asked and stated the obvious advantages of less wear and tear on vehicles possible savings on costs of diesel and of course the reduction in driver hours on the tacho meaning they could have more time available to reach destinations on the continent.

    His answer to all of that was, and I quote, “No we won´t be using that service because we are not encouraged to do so”
    At that he gave me a sardonic smile and turned on his heal, conversation terminated.

    Of course the service only lasted a year or so after that time and the principal reason the owners gave for discontinuing was the lack of up take from the haulage industry.

    Make of that what you will!

  52. Thomas Valentine says:

    Has anyone written a piece on the amount of money spent on “UK projects” in England? That is, things unrelated to Scotland yet is funded with Scottish tax. Examples, London Olympics, Millennium Dome, Cross Rail, Channel Tunnel, HS2 etc. Maybe includes wars and nuclear weapons.

    Rev you might know someone bursting to do this because I would not know where to look.

  53. robertknight says:

    Ahundredthidiot @11:06

    ” suggested Scotland and NI go their own ways…….they cut him off of course”

    You mean Independence for England? Now that’d solve a whole host of issues 🙂

  54. Dr Jim says:

    Jim Rodgers world leading economist and commentator says *the UK may be the 5th richest econonmy in the world, that’s debatable, but what isn’t is that without Scotland and its oil the UK wouldn’t make the G7 list because they would drop to around 9th or 10th place*

    Oh and Boris Johnson has a new nickname, apparently they’re calling him Mr No Deal

  55. Chris Kilby says:

    Don’t give Lex Luthor ideas.

  56. manandboy says:

    Adam Ramsay of openDemocracy, in an email today, says:

    “An election is imminent – and there’s a real risk it’ll be swayed by illegal overspending, secretive lobbying and misinformation on a greater scale than ever before.

    Over 100,000 people and senior politicians have now backed our call to give the Electoral Commission real power to punish election cheats.

    But we can’t rely on regulators alone. We also need committed, forensic investigative journalism to expose what’s going wrong.

    My openDemocracy colleagues and I have spent three years tracking how dark money is undermining our democracy. We’ve exposed how Brexit bankroller Arron Banks lied to parliament – and how Boris Johnson’s Vote Leave broke the law.
    We’ve forced transparency on Jacob Rees-Mogg’s secretive hard-Brexit lobby group.

    Our work has prompted law change, criminal investigations and been nominated for prizes.
    We’ve got tons more leads to chase down – but to keep going, we rely on support from people like you.
    Today I’m asking, will you become a supporter of openDemocracy, so that we can keep digging at this vital moment? ”

    Yes, I’ll support your work

    Adam Ramsay, openDemocracy []

  57. Grouse Beater says:

    That was always the concern, Chris, that by dumping the EU it left England wholly reliant on the US, and so it has transpired.

    The USA doesn’t give a damn about the UK. Happy to see the EU bounced, the US wants greater control over UK trade and the NHS.

    Your weekend essential reading:

    ‘The Ruling Class’:
    ‘Tarantino’s latest’:

  58. manandboy says:

    IndyRef2 won’t be discussed at the forthcoming SNP Conference, for the same reason that Army Generals don’t post their battle plans on Facebook.

  59. sassenach says:



  60. manandboy says:

    “After a meeting in Brussels on Tuesday EU finance ministers said American Samoa, Bahrain, Barbados, Grenada, Guam, South Korea, Macau, Marshall Islands, Mongolia, Namibia, Palau, Panama, Saint Lucia, Samoa, Trinidad and Tobago, Tunisia and the United Arab Emirates are not doing enough to crack down on offshore avoidance schemes.

    Crucially for the UK, the main list excludes a number of British Overseas Territories such as the Cayman Island and Bermuda that were on a previous EU blacklist from June 2015. Complaints about the methodology of that last list saw it scrapped and replaced with the new register.”

    It’s worth saying again : The USA is no friend to the EU. The USA views the EU as a competitor, a rival and a target.

    The USA is giving the Johnson Government every assistance to leave the EU in a clean-break No Deal. The advantages all lie with the US, and with the British Establishment’s network of Tax Havens and the Money Laundering capital of the World, London.

  61. manandboy says:

    The Tories, the DUP and the UDA. What a forward line the team ‘UK Democracy’ has!

    Arlene of course, is only in the first team squad because she represents the UDA.

    Funny how the UDA never gets a mention anywhere in the Unionist broadcast media these days.

  62. ephemeraldeception says:

    @Thomas valentine.
    You need to lookup national project spends on UK Gov websites. Eg for upcoming national v regional projects this is a useful doc.

    A lot of regional projects in England get grants from bot Regional and UK Gov sources. Since UK gov doesn’t give Barnett consequentials for most of the central funding Scots taxpayers are paying for their own regional spends + spends deemed national in England. Not so easy to top it all up and Scotland has no audited accounts. It is purposely vague.

  63. Marcia says:

    The latest UK poll by Yougov is out.

    Latest Yougov Scottish sub-sample 20 -21 August.

    SNP 46
    LD 16
    CON 15
    LAB 9
    GRN 6
    BXT 4
    OTH 3

    UK Wide it is:

    CON 32
    LAB 22
    LD 20
    BXT 12
    GRN 7
    SNP 4
    PC 1
    OTH 1

  64. mike cassidy says:


    Put on your tinfoil hat

    And have a wee peak into the 77th Brigade’s living room.


    Dig the krazy bus, kool kats!

  65. Sarah says:

    @ Marcia – that is very encouraging for us. It is the first time that overtly Unionist parties total is less than 50% [at 44%] and less than Yes parties.

    Loud cheers.

  66. mike cassidy says:

    manandboy + Sassenach


    What if there’s never a plan?

  67. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Latest Yougov Scottish sub-sample (20 -21 August) @Marcia says at 1:45 pm, That poll would result in the following seats calculated via

    SNP 53 (+18), losing S Gethins to FibDems
    LD 5 (+1)
    CON 1 (-12) only John Lamont surviving
    LAB 9 (-7) losing Sweeney and Murray amongst others
    GRN 0 (NC)
    BXT 0

  68. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Can someone please enlighten me (and maybe others too) as to how this “ex-regio” thing factors into (or not) the GERS calculations? On the face of it it does sound like a convenient ploy for siphoning-off resources directly into UK coffers (in effect “robbing Scotland by fountain-pen”), but is it, in fact?

    In the wonderful world of UK Treasury “guesstimates” being most of the sources of GERS data, is even some attempt made to allocate us a “commensurate” =cough= fraction of (100% of) our resources, or is it just a plain outright steal, in effect a Union Jack label plastered over our territory in a more subtle way than the previous (and notorious) North Sea boundary-shift?

  69. Artyhetty says:

    Brilliant image Chris, simple but to the point. UK London government, ‘Scotland you are a massive economic burden to us, but we will fight with every fibre of our beings to keep you shackled’. We all know the Britnats only ever hang onto their colonies to hand them lots of dosh, not!

    Re: uno mas@12.07

    Interesting but not surprising. When the haulage guy said ‘we are not encouraged to do so’, he probably meant, ‘we are told in no uncertain terms that if we do use the Scottish ferry for our haulage company, there will be serious repurcussions for our business’.

    The Britnats must be damn scared now at the thought of Scotland having their own international ferry service. Good, let them squirm, scheming, lying, troughing thieves.

  70. Marcia says:

    Jockanese Wind Talker

    That UK seat predictor doesn’t really work for the Scottish figures. If Labour were on 9% in Scotland they would be lucky to win anything. Young Stephen Gethins works hard in his seat and I wouldn’t write him off as those seat predictors do.

  71. defo says:

    Super, succinct scribing again CC.
    Time to ask for a pay rise? 🙂

  72. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    I also think the FibDem result is overly generous on a seat gain @Marcia says at 2:23 pm

    Sample is usually too wee.

    Will see what James Kelly (Scotgoespop) has to say on this poll.

  73. Artyhetty says:

    Just to say Chris you have Trump off to a ‘T’ there, but Johnson looks a wee bit of a mix between him and Gordy Brown, which is actually very apt. Morphing them in this context is perfect.

  74. Dr Jim says:

    Unionists in Scotland in support of the Amazon burning because Scotland’s FM is against it

    They really are silly billys

  75. Lochside says:

    Dave McEwan Hill says:
    24 August, 2019 at 11:39 am
    Robert Louis at 7.59.

    Utter bullshit, Robert and you know it.
    Plan A has been conceded by Labour and the estimable David Mundell.The Electoral Commissino are arguing about the form of words and the time table so they have as much as conceded it.

    And any silly notion that the SNP aren’t aware of alternative avenues means you understand nothing about the SNP.

    Squeaking about Plan B and C merely undermines our strengthening position as it presntly proceeds.’………………………….

    Impressed by your naivety DMH…so the red tories, toon clock mundell and the mendacious electoral commission mean that a section 30 will; happen no bother at a’ then?

    No Claim of Right, no appeal to Supreme Court ( another joke UK outfit)n no International Courts to confirm our Sovereign right to dissolve the Union under our own plebiscite. No..let’s just wait, while bravely fighting England’s case to stay ( they want to leave !) until we are jettisoned into the Brexit economic hellhole along with the RUk, Scotland, the regional appendage with no power other than a subordinate impotent assembly and a shadow legal system run by Unionist catamites.

    Yeah Plan A on currency worked really well for Alec didn’t it?

  76. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Manandboy & Sassenach

    Granted Conference is not the place to debate the minutiae of a campaign.

    But I think the foot-soldiers are in need of some assurance that there will in fact be one.

    Apart from the heady days of Indyref1(sic),since the inception of the devolved parliament, SNP has immersed it’s self in the affairs of what is essentially Scotlandshire Regional Council.

    An aside of which being, I went fairly quickly from devoting pretty much 100% of my free time to the SNP, to more or less zero.

    The recent zeal expended on attempts to undermine Brexit, MAY have been for sneaky strategic reasons (25yrs of pushing the Independence in Europe, baby-steps to freedom policy, will turn to dust when Scotland finds it’s self in a UK that is no longer in the EU)…but it could be that the SNP has slowly morphed from an being a democratic organisation with the motto “Scotland First”, into a ruling cabal who are “Politicians First”, to whom Independence is little more than legacy baggage from a bygone age.

    We should be striking NOW, when the opposition is in disarray, not next year or the year after, when erstwhile remainers are busy reconciling themselves to the reality that they are more British than European and fearing that a further split will re-double whatever the problems related to Brexit turn out to be.

  77. Terry callachan says:

    Anyone know where the money is coming from for Glasgow university to say it intends to spend twenty million pounds in Jamaica over the next twenty years on education as some sort of recompense for having received nearly two hundred million pounds as donations from rich people it thinks may have gained wealth from slavery

    What an odd thing to do
    Not that I’m ever against helping people who need help we always should if we can

    But it just seems an odd thing for a university to do

    I wonder if this is a political stunt by those in Glasgow university who have links with the Labour Party

  78. Merkin Scot says:

    Was there a reason that Deirdrie Brock did not mention that Scotland is being charged for HS2 when she answered a direct question on Any Questions last night?
    She sounded like an MP from the English midlands rather than the feisty independence supporting Aussie that we all know and love.
    Also, her briefing on the ‘Letts’ question was abysmal ie she didn’t appear to know what the question was about until the chairperson hinted to her.
    Bad show all round.

  79. Hamish100 says:


    I remember someone called Alexander in Scotland had their name shortened to Alex (spelt with a X) posh tories used Alick and nowadays middle class and those from south of the border use a c .


  80. kapelmeister says:

    Alister Jack is saying that Brexit is better than angry nationalism.

    Brexit is angry nationalism you nitwit.

  81. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Lochside says:

    “Yeah Plan A on currency worked really well for Alec didn’t it?”

    Where was Dorothy when we needed her?

    The “We won’t let you use our precious pounds” LIE, was a corker so outrageous, that Alec was dumbstruck.

    If ever a LIE deserved to be called out … that was it.

    Would the English really deliberately harm their own currency on the sayso of a couple of Jock has beens (Darling and Brown), who they had recently booted out of power for among other things, sabotaging the economy?

    Just because the aforementioned duo of maleficent foreigners wanted exact revenge on their countrymen for not doing what they were told?

    That howler should have spelled the death of the Abominable No Men …. Pity we didn’t effectively debunk it.

  82. Col.Blimp IV says:


    You are of course right…here – have an X.


  83. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Lochside at 2.44

    We had Plan A,Plan B,Plan C and Plan D on currency in 2014 actually if you remember (or perhaps as you are probably not one of us you didn’t know this)and that worked really well didn’t it?

    Any currency plan we had decided on they would have lied about anyway and we shouldn’t even have engaged them in an argument about it.

    So – tell me this
    Have Labour agreed we are entiteled to a referendum?
    Has David Mundell agreed we are entitled to a referendum?
    Has the Electoral Commission started setting out its case for the form of our referendum?

    So what exactly is your argument? Or did the unionists not keep you in the loop about their abandoning their opposition to it?

  84. Welsh Sion says:

    Hamish 100 @ 3.32 pm

    Not to mention Xander (as in Armstrong of that ilk).

  85. kapelmeister says:

    David Clegg gone to the Courier.

    I second that demotion.

  86. North chiel says:

    Latest “ Britnat ploy “ for Scots to “ swallow” anti independence / unionist propaganda is by way of a £ 5 Lidl voucher in the “ Scottish” daily mail ( today sat) advertised of course via Britnat controlled “ local” radio

  87. defo says:


    Have they recruited Clegg on the basis of his integrity, or was it some other initiative?

  88. I can verify the hum on the line. Seldom could the hum in a, wait for it, radiogram, be totally removed. Capacitors drying out was the main cause, but as an apprentice with good hearing, trying to eliminate that hum was, a bummer. Most didn’t hear it. Like the crackle on a record, the music was heard through it.
    So, for me, the joy of transistors, solid state stuff, and totally no hum, is a pleasure I still enjoy.
    I haven’t become used to radio stations being presets yet: I liked winding the tuner through and passed and back!

  89. Socrates MacSporran says:


    Cleggie will fit-in nicely at the Courier. They already have that raving harridan Bowditch writing her poison there.

  90. TJenny says:

    So who is getting Cleggy’s post on the Daily Record, and should we care?

  91. crazycat says:

    @ Marcia at 2.23

    I think Jockanese Wind talker’s 9 for Lab was a typo for 0, since he also put them on -7. (Corroborated by total number of seats = 59.)

  92. call me dave says:

    SNP remain firmly in the driving seat in latest YouGov subsample

  93. gus1940 says:

    RE the proposed ferry from Rosyth to Groningen I am puzzled as to the choice of destination as opposed to Zeebrugge.

    Zeebrugge has all the necessary ferry port facilities whereas Groningen does not appear to have them.

    Zeebrugge is far better placed regarding access to Belgium, France and Germany and even to most of The Netherlands.

    Looking at a map the distance to the 2 ports from Rosyth would appear to be similar. While Zeebrugge is further south Groningen is further east.

    One of the reports mentions that 2 ferries have been chartered from Stena. Stena operate 2 former Superfast vessels on their Cairnryan service. If it is these they would be ideal and could provide a service like the late lamented Superfast as opposed to the awful short-lived Scottish Viking which couldn’t even dock in Zeebrugge without tugs.

  94. Lochside says:

    Dave McEwan Hill says:
    24 August, 2019 at 4:07 pm
    Lochside at 2.44

    (or perhaps as you are probably not one of us you didn’t know this)…..’NOT ONE OF US?’…..thought you were above the McCarthyite snidey digs perpetrated by the hive mob that have established themselves on here for the last couple of years?

    Obviously not…very Thatcher like there Dave. Just in case you don’t know, I have been commentating on here for many years. During that time I have been critical of the SNP and the enemies of Independence in equal measures.

    This site encouraged healthy debate, but increasingly it has been infested with half witted ‘fur us or agin us’ trolls driving many stalwarts away.

    We are weeks away from forced undemocratic eviction from the EU and so far there is no discernible plan or action from our SG led by the SNP.

    If you have confidence in the reactions from lyuing Unionist individuala nad institutions to deliver a rerun of the 2014 Referendum including the bogus voting results ( as you evidenced on here) in Argyll plus the breaches of Purdah etc by accepting Westminster’s permission via an S30 or failing that a UDI style go it alone Referendum then good for you.

    I don’t. For the reason that NS herself said that she required International recognition, a gold standard of the process.
    While we remain a devolved part of the UK, we are dependent on the UK Gov assent via s30. If it is refused, is NS going to go ahead anyway?And on what constitutional basis? and under what kind of conditions? E.G. even more media black outs and distortions and a boycott by the Unionist electorate?

  95. Old Pete says:

    Strategically and tactically we have to go for Independence soon as is possible or a great opportunity will be lost. How we organise a referendum with most councils run by anti-Scotland councillors who will refuse to comply unless the UK government agrees is beyond my Ken? All I now is we might never have a better opportunity, with a short passionate campaign giving us victory.
    If the SNP delay till after the probable general election which is expected after we leave the EU then they have to somehow, someway state that if the SNP gain the most seats in Scotland then they will accept their victory as a mandate to hold a Scottish independence referendum. Have no idea how the SNP will go about this only feel if they don’t we will regret it, we have an opportunity but can Nicola and her team take it ? I’m not so sure.

  96. Dr Jim says:

    Scotland wins a sporting contest and Scottish Yoonworld rages with anger

    It’s apparently the FMs fault as well

  97. defo says:

    How long would the illegally acting Yoon cooncils last, when faced with a cooncil tax boycott.
    And would they also not be considering their personal positions JIC indy prevails, given recent polling, and it’s upward trend?

  98. Robert Peffers says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland says: 24 August, 2019 at 2:06 pm:

    ” … Can someone please enlighten me (and maybe others too) as to how this “ex-regio” thing factors into (or not) the GERS calculations?”

    No! Go do your own research.

    I’ve explained this so many, many times on Wings before. If you cannot be bothered reading it then go do your own research.

    However, I will tell you this – It isn’t, “ex-regio”, it is, “Extra-Regio” and here is an Office of National Statistics website that will define the term for you. › file › regionalaccountsmethodologyguidetcm7725

  99. Ron Maclean says:

    Those aspiring to the status of ‘one of us’ should read the following –

    ‘The site advocates Scottish independence, but is not affiliated or connected in any way to the SNP, and neither gives to or receives money from the party, nor indeed any other party. We have an inquiring mind, and welcome intelligent contributions from all sides of the political debate.

    Got something worthwhile to say about Scotland’s future? Try us.’

    From: Wings Over Scotland ‘About us’.

  100. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Robert Peffers @ 18:57,

    Thanks for another demonstration of the warm community spirit for which you are so well-known on here.

    If indy depended only on gratuitously offensive egotists like you, it would take as long again as you have been claiming to support it. If it hadn’t died through lack of nourishment first.

  101. Golfnut says:

    @ Old Pete.

    The new referendum Bill by passes the council’s, by including the right of the SG to appoint officials.

  102. sassenach says:

    Robert J. Sutherland

    Mr Peffers has explained this many times, and I would have thought you would have read one of his pieces, and not taken the huff with him.

    He has, over the years, provided excellent articles on the history of Scotland.

    Give him a break!!

  103. Joe says:

    Being a small resource rich nation is like being a beautiful young caucasian woman in a Malmö suburb alone at night.

  104. Dr Jim says:

    This site may not be affiliated or connected with the SNP but it wouldn’t have existed without them

    As with aspirations to Independence for Scotland

  105. dakk says:

    Whit’s been happnin wi’ the cricket’n’at!

  106. manandboy says:

    This looks like hard-line extreme politics to me. So much for ‘Boris”s famed charm.

  107. Golfnut says:

    @ Gus 1940.

    It could be that Zeebruge is pretty close to capacity, particularly scheduled ferry routes for freight. There could of course be log jams of freight with ferries on berths for a lot longer than normal, therefore difficult to schedule new ferry routes. Emmshaven may have a lot more slack and I believe they have recently been extending warehouse capacity.

  108. manandboy says:

    I could be completely wrong on this, but my sense tells me the worst is yet to come. Behold, distress approaches.

    Independence for Scotland is simply not an option. It’s essential – and somewhat urgent.

  109. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    sassenach @ 20:17,

    =roll eyes=

    It costs nothing to be civil about a civil request addressed to the community-at-large, and if it was so much of a bother for him, he needn’t have bothered either to go out of his way looking for trouble over it. All I wanted was a brief resumé, not a thesis. He has wilfully accused me in the past of being a “know-all”, so his response is hypocritical to say the least.

    Anyway, it’s not as though he’s ever been reluctant, with the flimsiest of stimuli, to spout whole screeds of predigested antiquated babble at the drop of a hat.

  110. Col.Blimp IV says:


    Jeffrey Archer seems to have taken it up and with some success, if the wireless is to be believed.

    Can’t be a very physically demanding “sport” if someone his age can perform at the highest level.

  111. call me dave says:

    Radio 5 (Brexit) discussing Boris and closing Parliament darn Sarf.

    First caller wants Queenie to cancel Brexit… 🙂

  112. dakk says:

    Col Blimp

    Looked like he had a double rupture yesterday by the look of his gingerly walk off the pitch as England toiled.

    Didn’t look himself at all ol’ jeff

  113. Lenny Hartley says:

    A couple of years ago there were rumours about Mountatten and conjecture that Willie McRae was executed as he had info on an establishment Pedophile ring. Looks like the first part is going to hit the headlines with the publication of a new book. Always thought this was more likely than the nucleur stuff. I have read elsewhere that the bomb was probably taken aboard by the fifteen year old crewman (not that he knew about it!)

  114. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    Prince Andrew getting a hard time re the child abuse in USA.

    Damn shame.

    Republic are looking for new members, just saying.

  115. Graf Midgehunter says:

    Re Rosyth – Eemshaven ferry

    Scotland does need a ferry to the continent, no doubt about it. Our exports are vital and will expand when we get Indy.
    So a port at the right place is important.

    I would have gone for for somewhere central like Rotterdam, Antwerpen or Zeebrugge with quick, short distances to the main population regions of Germany, Netherlands, Belgium and France.

    I’ll admit to being sceptical at the beginning because Eemshaven (Harbour on the Ems) is what we say over here as “Am Arsch der Welt” (at the arse end of the world), a lonely place where the chickens and foxes say goodnight to each other…! Flat as a pancake.
    Parking – no problem, 30m between lorries and still loads of room.
    It’s about 30km to get to the next motorway and some serious driving in front of you.

    However, if you think about the distance from Edinburgh to Dover before you start with the ferry, that’s a long, long way.

    From Eemshaven the same distance would get you well into Bavaria, Northern France or Switzerland.

    So it could be viable providing the transport companies see the sense in it.

    From Edinburgh into the welcoming arms of the Dutch.. 🙂

  116. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Lenny Hartley –

    It’s so fuckin exhausting, watching these elite perverts getting away with it while ordinary punters still feel obliged, for whatever reason, to defend them.

    Let’s face it – the ‘British’ monarchy should’ve ended back in the day, after Di was bumped off. The masses were at the fuckin gates. It was happening right there on the box. Then Maj steps up, does her stuff, and we fall back into line…

    Only other time I recall seeing her doing anything similar was when she was leaving that church up north, letting it ‘slip’ that we should think very carefully about how we were going to vote in indy1.

    I’m not in a particularly positive frame of mind right now but I genuinely don’t believe we will ever be free as a nation whilst ‘The Crown’ exists. I can’t envisage the British State ever letting us go by democratic means, even if there is widespread/popular civil disobedience. They’d rather go all-out and have another war (Ooops! Sorry, wrong word!), well, another set of ‘troubles’ right on their own doorstep than accept that their poxy empire is about to vanish down the fuckin plug-hole.

  117. Cubby says:

    Robert J Sutherland

    Mr Sutherland is that you back to being hypocritical again. The old pot calling the kettle black.

  118. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Had a look at Eemshaven on Google streetview – it’s a port, nothing else. It’s not a part of a thriving community, it’s just a port.

    But it does seem to have infrastructure connections.

    “Eemshaven is a seaport in the province of Groningen in the north of the Netherlands. Population of the area was 5 in January 2017. In 1968, the Dutch government declared the Ems estuary to be an economic key region. One of the key developments for the region was the construction of a seaport called Eemshaven.”

  119. Thepnr says:

    Check out the state of this utter crap.

    Expert insists on indyref3 to avoid repeat of Brexit chaos

    British Nationalists soiling themselves gain momentum LOL

  120. Dr Jim says:

    Apparently there are still some people who believe they’re paying for a TV licence

    Sorry foks you’re paying a UK government tax to own a TV, the BBC doesn’t get the money, it goes directly to the exchequer and the BBC is paid from general taxation as it always has been, It’s only now that the government wants shot of the responsibility of increasing the tax (bad for votes) they’re shoving it onto the BBC to do the tax funding collecting job for themselves, and that’s why the prices are going up and the old folks like me (well not me) are having to pay

    Oh, and do remember when you buy a new TV if you pay cash don’t give your name and address to the shop if you intend not to pay the BBC any money, you don’t have to and the shop still has to give you the guarantee

    Nobody in Asda asks for your identity if you buy a microwave at £60 or a TV for £400 but you still get your reciept in case it’s faulty for a no quibble return

  121. Dr Jim says:

    @Thepnr 11:36pm

    Yer no gettin wan, but if yeez dae

    Panic panic panic!! and what’s it got to do with Neil Findlay I thought he’d retired from threatening people on behalf of Labour

  122. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Here was me thinking that Scottish Unionists believed to a man/woman that a referendum was a thing you were only supposed to have one shot at.

    Now they are squealing “Best of Three” – the mark of the bad looser.

  123. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Cubby @ 23:27,

    Sorry, didn’t realise you had been appointed the politeness prefect. Maybe then you should address your concerns to your hero the instigator.

    I wish though you actually had something positive to say for once, rather than your customary delusional witch-hunting or this silly passive-aggressive twitting…

  124. manandboy says:

    The image for this article is of, r-l, Macron, Merkel and Johnson. Now let’s check out the body language. Macron and Merkel have their hands out front for everyone to see. In contrast, and somewhat awkwardly, Johnson has his hands behind his back, out of sight.
    The body language here says that Macron & Merkel are out front, up front, and nothing to hide. Johnson’s body language tells a different story.

    Johnson has another agenda. Made in the USA.

  125. Heart of Galloway says:

    More straws in the wind…

    At Ayr today on a day oot at the beach some of the family and I popped into a local hostelry for a bar lunch.

    A high chair was provided for the grandwean a cheap and perfectly fine meal hit the spot. While paying for the food, the cook told me she’s off to the US for two months then Mexico for five.

    “Are you coming back?” I asked. “Aye, in April.”
    – “That’ll be in time for the independence referendum then?”
    – “Aye, it’s amazin’ the things ye dae tae vote yes.”

    At this stage, the bar owner – a typically, warm, nae-nonsense Ayrhire wummin in her late sixties who was standing nearby – for no obvious reason threw her arms around me.

    “Listen son, ah’m no’ SNP. But See that Boris Johnson? He’s a clown – what right has he got tae tell us what we cannae dae?
    “We have tae go for independence.”
    – “How?”
    – “Because we havenae got a choice.”

    The day before I had reason to phone a solicitor friend on a business matter. Totally out of the blue he said: “By the way, I have some good news for you.”
    – “Oh aye, what’s that?
    – “I’ve totally come round to your way of thinking. I’m now a yes voter. Honestly.
    – “What did you change your mind for?
    – “Well, there was the Europe thing (my pal is of Italian heritage). I believed the other crew when they said a no vote would mean Scotland stays in the EU. I was a mug.
    “Then there’s the monarchy.”
    – “What aboot it?”
    – “I didn’t think the SNP were strong enough in getting rid of the monarchy.”
    – (*bites tongue) “Well, all in the fullness of time.”

    Last week I had another exchange, this time at a local fair with a Tory farmer who admitted to being worried about Brexit cutting Scotland’s renowned quality beef sector off at the knees.
    – “Do you honestly think Boris Johnson cares twa shites about Scotland?” I asked (nae point in fannying aboot with Galloway farmers).
    – “Aye well, we’ll have to wait and see.”
    – “Wait and see? What, after the Tory government stole Scotland’s £160 million convergence money?”
    – “Aye, that wasn’t handled very well. But all politicians…they should be put up against a wall and shot.”
    – “All? When has Nicola Sturgeon of Fergus Ewing ever done Scotland wrong? Or no’ been honest about things?”
    – “Aye, well…”.

    There was no further response – just a furrowed brow and a quizzical look. Now, not for moment do I think this man is of a mind to vote yes.

    But he put foward no reasons why the union was good for Scotland. And as an intelligent man, you could sense his discomfiture as to why that should be.

    I thought that lack conviction was significant – just as significant, in fact, as the other two conversations.

    Taken together, they indicate not only a discernable shift to yes and a strengthening of commitment to independence among non-SNP supporters, but also a hesitancy among previously committed unionists as to the merits of their case.

    All three exchanges – brief and incomplete as they were – in my book at least add to growing evidence of a turn of the tide in our favour, a shift that appears to be gathering momentum.

    And it is entirely consistent with the You Gov poll showing an indy majority by party (SNP 46 + Greens 6).

    Make no mistake, outside the blogosphere, the twittersphere and any other kind of sphere something truly fundamental is happening whuch has shifted yes/no dial significantly in our direction.

    Part of it is certainly a sense that Scotland as a country is facing extinction unless we break free from the Westminster Tory nuthouse.

    So persuade those who you can. Convince those who you must. Ignore those who you can’t.

    And I don’t know about anybody else, but around these parts the campaign has already started. Lay on! Lay on! They fail!

  126. defo says:

    A rather inspiring straw ^

  127. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Heart of Galloway @ 01:13,

    Some interesting anecdotal evidence there.

    I just hope we don’t wait too long so that the doubters begin to relax and think “well, it’s no so bad really…”, because then we’ll have blown our chances. That’s my main worry, that normalisation will begin to set in. That’s why I don’t want to wait nearly as long as another year.

    […] but also a hesitancy among previously committed unionists as to the merits of their case.

    Which illustrates a quite important point. Some will not be persuaded enough to flip, but might still contribute, since we not only succeed by winning converts (always best, since that increases the “yes” margin by +2) but also by dissuading reluctant opponents from feeling motivated enough to cast an opposing vote (a lower margin increase of +1, but still worthwhile).

  128. gus1940 says:


    Superfast had its own dedicated RoRo berth at Zeebrugge which presumably is still there as it was used by the subsequent Scottish Viking fiasco vessel and the recently abandoned cargo only service.

  129. ScottieDog says:

    @Heart of Galloway
    Lovely stories for a Sunday morn! Hope the SNP hierarchy are reading 🙂

    A very good friend of mine from LONDONDERRY visited a while back. We always ban political discussion as it gets a bit intense as you can imagine. This time he said Nicola needed to get her act together and get oot!

    I was jumping inside but just smiled causally and opened the vino.

    Happy Sunday 🙂

  130. Golfnut says:

    @ Gus 1940.

    Hi, I’m not suggesting that Zeebrugge isn’t the better option under normal circumstances but on 31st October, normal is going oot the windae. I haven’t a clue what the business model is for this service, but if it was me starting this venture, at this time, with the anticipated difficulties, by passing a 3 day park up sounds like a pretty good USP just for starters. I think one of the headlines on this was that Whisky exports were saved, me, I was thinking more along the lines of medicines and perhaps livestock( if we can still export them) rather than tourism at this time. Anyway I wish them well and really hope its just the start of direct links with Europe.

  131. robbo says:

    Did I hear that eegit Boris right there on Sky?

    “We don’t sell any pork pies to US,this is our chance to penetrate”

    Seriously. wtf is this mince?

  132. Dorothy Devine says:

    Robbo , minced pork!

    heart of Galloway, I was chatting to a lady during the referendum and she was unconvinced of yes , said she got all her information from Radio 4 , ever so trustworthy! I was chatting to the same lady the other day and she said she wasn’t on the side of the SNP but my goodness that idiot Boris and his entourage had definitely altered her thinking about independence.

    She had also been listening to LBC with Mr O’Brian had got a wee taste of those south of the border and their freaky ideas about Scotland.

    It pleased me to think that there are others waking up and teetering on the brink -from hardline UKOK’s to maybe Scotland free of a nasty Westminster influence.

  133. Joe says:

    @Heart of Galloway

    I think you are correct about a shift in Yes/No sentiment. I think it would be in the bag already if there was a viable ‘pro indy’ party that wasnt also full-on social justice leftist arseholes that somehow see’s diktat from Brussels on anything meaningful as being independent.

    Ive lived and worked in the EU for years and under left wing governments. There’s a reason so many Europeans (and even refugees/economic migrants) want to be in the UK.

    I dont want to say this but its the truth for me – on voting for independence I fear that the hyper progressive Scottish people will crawl further up their own arses and basically turn the place into an intolerable leftist shithole. Dont like the transgender issue currently? It will get worse.

    Why do I say this? Because the majority of Scottish nationalists ive ever met have been UTTERLY clueless on economics, have a very narrow vision (i.e if its British or American its bad, if its anyone else then its good), dont know anything meaningful about socialism in the 20th century and are wide eyed idiots when it comes to the realities of the EU.

    The hypocrisy I see on social media with pro indy people (yes I know the Unionists are arseholes) makes me want to puke. No facts, no reasoned thoughts just pure emotion and political bias.

  134. Dan says:

    @manandboy at 12:46 am

    Link archived again for you…

    Questions –
    Is there really any point in continuing to create archived links for the direct links folk have previously posted on here?
    Do we just accept some folk can’t be arsed to spend the extra 30 seconds to archive links from unionist rags?
    Why would any genuine Indy supporters, once enlightened as to why we archive links, continue to post direct links to “newspapers” that constantly attempt to undermine our cause and deny our ambitions to end the corruption we endure in the UK union?

  135. sassenach says:

    Joe @8-19am

    Your Tory instincts are showing once again, Joe, you need to be a lot more subtle to persuade people on here!!!

  136. Fergus Green says:

    @Robbo 8.00:

    Boris doesn’t sell pork pies. He just tells them!

  137. Heart of Galloway says:


    Exactly. Morale, motivation and belief in the cause are priceless allies in any battle.

    Yes outscored our adversaries in all three in 2014 but Scotland’s media fifth column, the purdah-breaking Vow and a last minute failure of nerve on the part of a significant number of people (immediately regretted) served to hand the British nationalists a narrow win. That, and some reality-defying postal vote returns, to which many have alluded before.

    This time Yes is starting from a base of 50% plus, as opposed to 30%. There is also the growing perception that the very survival of Scotland is at stake – a belief that we MUST prevail because the implications of another defeat are unthinkable.

    As to timing, I believe we will be guided by events as they unfold. Our diplomatic ties establiished with the EU before Brexit will come into play, likewise the Referendum Bill which when law will deliver both the mechanism and the legitimacy for holding IndyRef2.

    I would not rule out an acceleration of the IR2 schedule if circumstances demand it.

  138. Breeks says:

    Robert Peffers says:
    24 August, 2019 at 6:57 pm
    @Robert J. Sutherland says: 24 August, 2019 at 2:06 pm:

    ” … Can someone please enlighten me (and maybe others too) as to how this “ex-regio” thing factors into (or not) the GERS calculations?”

    No! Go do your own research.

    @Robert J. Sutherland

    “***Extra-regio refers to output that can’t be assigned to region/country, e.g. North Sea oil & gas Source: ONS, Regional gross value added (balanced), UK: 1998 to 2016, Dec 2017”

    It seems “North Sea” resource is actually in the territorial waters of Limbo, not Scotland.

    The U.K. Government won’t release the raw data upon which they compile their GERS statistics, so it’s impossible to identify any instances of creative accounting. They interpret North Sea Oil as a stateless commodity, but which remains under the UK umbrella, so it’s input can thus be used flatter UK economic performance, but without flattering the Scottish economy. It’s basically theft. They take what’s ours and call it theirs.

    There are similar loopholes where Scottish commerce is discounted from Scotland’s economic performance because Companies are registered in England and file their tax returns in England. Scottish produce which is exported from English ports which flatters the “UK” balance of Trade.

    Another GERS manipulation, at least I think it was GERS, was comparing Scotland’s GDP before and after Indy, but calculations were done per capita; as in Scotland has 8.5% population so would get 8.5% of the “UK” oil. It is categorically untrue and misleading. 96% of “UK” oil is in Scotland’s territorial waters and belongs to Scotland, but without that information, how would you ever know to question the GDP figures? What ‘other’ manipulations don’t you know about? – Especially having proof the compilers of the data are demonstrably willing to manipulate and distort the information.

    With indisputable evidence of ‘some’ manipulation of the figures, the immediate conclusion ought to be the figures are thoroughly discredited and raw data audited. The Scottish Government should really demand to see the raw uncompiled data before compiling any of its own reports or making fiscal judgements and decisions based upon manipulated information which cannot be properly audited.

    GERS is the UK’s manipulated version of the raw data, and should properly be dismissed in lieu of the raw data. You could always reciprocate and start filling in your tax returns with discretionary figures rather than honest ones and see how well the UK Government reacts.

    Westminster is absolutely determined to cover up the scandalous extent to which Scotland’s resources are being exploited. The truth must never come out. We Scots would be “angry”. I saw a comment online that the British Empire had extracted £40 trillion for India under Colonial rule. We can only speculate what the Union has cost Scotland. Given the relative populations of India and Scotland, I have a gut feeling Scotland would fare even worse.

    Let me qualify that too… portions of Scotland flourished as a nett benefit of the British Empire, and to what extent we all did might never be fairly assessed in the round. Whatever the figures, your average Scot has a better lot than your average Indian in real terms, but at issue is the theft of what we had stolen.

    Westminster will never release the raw undoctored figures because once the shenanigans were transparent, the UK economy would be revealed as a complete travesty.

    Given the manipulations designed to impoverish the Scottish economy, strip out Scotland’s wealth and offload UK debt onto Scotland, perhaps the GERS figures themselves would provide credible argument of Scotland’s colonial subjugation and exploitation of resources. That’s not just a turn of phrase, the UN has definitions concerning colonial exploitation where a Nation’s resources are usurped with no apparent benefit of the indigenous people or their Nation.

    Sadly in Scotland, we lie back and look at the ceiling, and dream of having a vote about it some day.

    Definition: ‘Democracy’. (Noun). The process whereby Westminster subjugates Scottish Popular Sovereignty, and the Scottish Government routinely acquiesces.

  139. Robert Peffers says:

    @robbo says: 25 August, 2019 at 8:00 am:

    ” … Did I hear that eegit Boris right there on Sky?
    “We don’t sell any pork pies to US,this is our chance to penetrate”
    Seriously. wtf is this mince?”

    Soonds afu like pork mince tae me, robbo, whit else wad be in pork pies?

  140. Dan says:

    I suppose this is on topic to a degree as it is happening in our Absolute State and it’s hard to see any let up with the trajectory the UK is heading.

    Dedicated to the good folks of Lancashire. Appropriately titled AC/DC tuneage for our fractured UK society.
    Both tracks are noisy as fook for a Sunday morn, but I guessed they’d need something loud to hear over seismic activity…

    For Those About To Rock, We Salute You

    Shake Your Foundations

  141. galamcennalath says:

    There are rumours that the Rothsyth ferry service was allegedly sabotaged for political reasons. Not enough trucks used it and somehow that situation was engineered.

    Anyone know what the truth is here?

  142. Hamish100 says:

    Joe and “. full-on social justice leftist arseholes”

    Is that the sort of folk that may help out at foodbanks because the right wing shitpots have squirrelled their monies offshore?

    Must be nice to be so arrogant and right wing. The woes of the world is everybody else’s fault.

    Thankfully I believe Scotland in the main would offer a helping hand rather than step over a body in the street tutting about those slivers.

  143. robbo says:

    So on trade deal Boris will demand export of those horrible(imho)
    Melton Mowbray pork pies and shower trays and in return he’ll The Donald, give us clori chicken, hormone beef, aye excellent. Boris,way to go man ,you’re great!
    FFS , that’s it ,I’m aff oan the drink the day,can’t fecking deal wae this.

  144. Hamish100 says:


  145. Robert Peffers says:

    @Joe says: 25 August, 2019 at 8:19 am:

    ” … I think you are correct about a shift in Yes/No sentiment. I think it would be in the bag already if there was a viable ‘pro indy’ party that wasnt also full-on social justice leftist arseholes that somehow see’s diktat from Brussels on anything meaningful as being independent.”

    Give it up, Joe, first of all The EU has no way of forcing member states to do anything. Unlike the UK it doesn’t work by diktat and compulsion and, as every member state has a veto, if they do not want to do anything that the EU wants them to do they just veto it or just ignore it.

    The EU works by democracy and consensus while the UK works by diktat. Furthermore what you claim as extreme left wing is in face slightly left of centre. Strange that you claim it as extreme left wing. It takes an extreme right winger, (fascist), to view the EU as being extreme left wing.

    In other words, Joe, you are wasting your time here on Wings for everyone, bar your own kind, knows you for what you are.

    If you doubt what I claim above then explain how Sweden, a founder EU member, still has not been forced to adopt the Euro?

    Oh! Don’t bother telling more lies, I’ve answered that question already – it is because the EU has no way to force member states to do anything because the EU works by consensus.

    If member states adopt EU recommendations it is because they must have agreed to them or the member state would just ignore the EU directive or would have vetoed whatever the directive was when it went through the EU parliament.

    BTW: There are no unelected people in the EU making members do anything. Those, “Unelected People”, are commissioners and that means they are employees, (commissioned”, means paid for and you do not elect employees who, in any case, cannot make decisions – only the EU parliamentarians make decisions – not the EC.

  146. Liz g says:

    Joe 8.19
    Let’s suppose you’re right Joe and Scotland has a “Right On” rather than a “Right Wing” government after Independence.
    Then the people of Scotland simply vote them out…
    Thus actually getting the form of Government best suited to our needs.
    Not ” decades ” of Government we’ve never voted for
    That’s the whole point.

  147. HandandShrimp says:

    Had a rare listen to radio Scotland news. Second or third item is Edinburgh to Glasgow rail journey was really really busy last night. People felt it was overcrowded and there were kids there (said woman who mentioned she had her bike with her). No one hurt, no delay just crowded on a short rail journey.

    …and the BBC wonder why people turn off.

  148. Robert Peffers says:

    @Breeks says: 25 August, 2019 at 9:14 am:

    ” … “***Extra-regio refers to output that can’t be assigned to region/country, e.g. North Sea oil & gas Source: ONS, Regional gross value added (balanced), UK: 1998 to 2016, Dec 2017”
    It seems “North Sea” resource is actually in the territorial waters of Limbo, not Scotland.”

    Utter pish! Breeks.

    Up to 98% of all oil and gas revenue is accrued by Westminster from territory that is recognised as being under the, “International Law Of The Seas”, as being under Scottish legal Jurisdiction. a.k.a. As being legally Scottish territorial waters. That make4s those waters identifiable.

    The term, “Extra-Regio”, is identified, (By the ONS itself), as referring to, “Territory that cannot be identified as any particular region”. Yet the International Law of the Seas, can, and does, identify it.

    Thus it isn’t in limbo as you claim. It is clearly being, to use a Scottish legal term, “pauchled”.

    And don’t even dream of challenging the statement of, “Up to 98%”, the reason this figure is not precise is because there is never 100% or oil & gas installations producing at any one time. There are always installations out of service for some reason or other. For example, break downs, strikes, maintenance, moving rigs to other locations and so on. That means only 2% of oil & gas revenue comes from other than Scottish territorial waters.

  149. Dan says:

    An articles from earlier in the week by Jason Michael McCann.

  150. Cubby says:


    Spot on as ever Liz.

  151. Cubby says:

    Robert J Sutherland@12.45am

    I will address each of your criticisms in turn.

    1. I am not a politeness prefect and never will be. That is just a bit of deflection. The point is not whether or not you act politely or not but the fact that you act hypocritically by criticising others for criticising in an unpolite way and at the same time doing it yourself on many occasions. Pot calling kettle black. I am sure an intelligent man like you can tell the difference so your comment is deflection.

    2. Sorry don’t do hero worship.

    3. Sorry I don’t believe in witches, goblins, ghosts, wizards, ghouls etc etc so I don’t go hunting for any such creatures. If however you aren’t referring to phoney independence supporting Britnats then I don’t need to go hunting for them either. They appear of their own free will on Wings.

    4. Scotland will once again be a free and independent country in the very near future. Positive enough for you Mr Sutherland?

  152. Craig Murray says:

    Manandboy at 1.12 pm yesterday.

    You are absolutely correct. In that Army Generals don’t care at all what their troops think and have excellent salaries, lifestyle and housing provided by the taxpayer. You have come on the perfect analogy for the SNP leadership. Thank you.

  153. fillofficer says:

    rosyth & prestwick failed as they were discriminated against in favour of southern ports, no other logical explanation
    resulting in increased costs for trade & travellers
    chumps, the lot of us
    i hope the eemshaven plan doesn’t suffer the same fate

  154. gus1940 says:

    Is there a copy of the Argyll & Bute Report on The 2014 Ref. and how it was rigged available for download?

  155. Breeks says:

    Robert Peffers says:
    25 August, 2019 at 10:19 am
    @Breeks says: 25 August, 2019 at 9:14 am:

    ” … “***Extra-regio refers to output that can’t be assigned to region/country, e.g. North Sea oil & gas Source: ONS, Regional gross value added (balanced), UK: 1998 to 2016, Dec 2017”
    It seems “North Sea” resource is actually in the territorial waters of Limbo, not Scotland.”

    Utter pish! Breeks.

    R J Sutherland requested clarification on what “extra regio” meant in the context of the GERS figures, and I referred him to Westminster Government Document which cited a reference from the ONS, Office of National Statistics, which quoted Extra-Regio as detailed above. By convention, that is clarification of how the U.K. Government is defining its interpretation of Extra-Regio.

    If you disagree with the UK government’s definition of Extra-Regio, or think it’s pish, then it’s up to you, but take it up with the ONS or the Government. I was simply answering RJS question. Something you had rather rudely declined to do.

  156. gus1940 says:

    I am a WW1 History fan and have visited the battlefields 7 times.

    I went twice by Superfast and once by the awful replacement Scottisah Viking.

    The other trips were twice by ferry from Hull once by Air and once by train thru the tunnel.

    If I wanted a repeat trip a ferry to Groningen would be a No No. Just Google ‘Journey from Groningen to Ypres’ and you will see the distance. time and cost for all transport modes.

    That is just an example of why Zeebrugge would be a more suitable destination as the same sort of costs, distance and time would be incurred for anybody tourist or freight going to Belgium, France and most of Germany and The Netherlands.

    I think a statement is required from those behind the new schemes as to why they propose Groningen and not Zeebrugge as the destination.

  157. Lenny Hartley says:

    Auld Bob, England has its own oil and gas production , oil and gas from Whytch Farm in Dorset peacked at around 100,000 barrels per day and i think is currently half that, there is also the gas fields off Gt Yarmouth and Morcambe, plus whatever is fracked.
    That is why Scotland only has 90% plus of UK Production

  158. Lenny Hartley says:

    galamcennalath Re Rosyth ferry, think cost may have been a factor, I used the service twice and it wasnt cheap, I could drive to Dover and save nearly half of the cost. Off course if you factor in wear and tare, convenience etc it makes more sense but unless there are barriers like long queues via dover then
    I cannot see it being sucessful until we are 8ndependent.

  159. Joe says:

    @Robert Peffers

    Sorry Rob, but you are either gloriously thick or are downright dishonest. Ive already been over how and why the a member of the EU cannot be considered an ‘independent country’.

    Through which discussion you side stepped and straw manned like a pro.

    Besides the facts of EU membership ive been through EU migration and residency. Ive lived in multiple cities throughout the EU. Ive payed my taxes and social contributions there. There is good reason im back in the UK.

    So, eh, no I wont ‘give it up’.

    As for my ‘kind’?

    My kind is those with lived experience of the subject at hand, an economic education and will for REAL Scottish independence.

    I simply do NOT trust anyone who thinks that Scottish independence automatically should mean EU membership. Especially those snakes who wish to distort the failings of the EU and the growing problems

    For those who do – get an education, get some knowledge and step outside of the ridiculous bubble of ‘EU good, UK bad’. Its much more fucking complicated than that.

    So what kind are you? Given the obvious lies you spout about the EU I can put a word to it.

    You are no Scottish nationalist by any stretch of the imagination. You are an European nationalist and a liar. So at least we have assessed of which ‘kind’ we are.

  160. Joe says:

    @ Liz G

    I agree. However we are seeing the Scottish government totally abusing the limited power it has in the name of ‘progress, diversity and inclusivity’.

    I fear a struggle after independence with the forces who wish to turn Scotland into a post-modern ‘progressive’ shithole. Forces that are international and not short of money.

    Anyone who was surprised by the recent issues with trans/womens rights need to ask themselves why they didnt see it coming and some did and what comes next.

  161. Alex Birnie says:

    I think that’s Chris Cairns’ best ever. ALL of the GERS banter, distilled into one small cartoon. A picture is worth a thousand words, but a Cairns cartoon is worth a million…… brilliant!

  162. Joe says:

    Oh yes – i’ll say it now (sorry for a 3rd post): after trans acceptance comes a push to accept pedophilia as a legit ‘sexuality’.

    Doubt me? Its already started. Watch for it.

  163. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Heart of Galloway @ 09:11,

    I would not rule out an acceleration of the IR2 schedule if circumstances demand it.

    Well, I received some funding bumpf from the SNP the other day, and among it was a letter which contains the interesting statement “it’s likely we’ll be accelerating plans for a second independence referendum”.

    So while Elvis is still in the building, he might be leaving soon enough…?

  164. Meindevon says:

    Encouraging stories from folk about the changing attitudes of Unionists.

    It was said by a couple of these folk that ‘I’m no snp voter/Sturgeon lover but…’ and I’ve said this before but when I’m home I always say to people who don’t like NS or the SNP that this is not about them.

    This is about Scotland’s future as a nation whether you vote snp,Labour, Tory or Greens. I say once we get to make decisions for Scotland by Scotland then the other parties can concentrate on Scotland and not London and get votes back from the SNP. Now I know that none of us want Labour back in power but it gives them a reason to consider independence.

    Whilst commenting I have my own little anecdote. I was talking to a lovely young lady from Spain who works at my mum’s care home a couple of weeks ago. It brought a tear to my eye to hear her say ‘we need to be independent’ as she thought of herself as Scottish and I was so proud. She has her citizenship so hopefully will stay on but she also said how worrying it was because she couldn’t be 100pc sure which was horrible to hear. Oh and the care home manager was a big Indy supporter too.

  165. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Cubby @ 10:47,

    This is gettig tiresome, but if you insist on being a whiny twat – as is perfectly obvious to all but you, it seems – all I ask is that at least you be an equal-opportunity whiny twat. Which currently you’re clearly not, since you didn’t care to check the gratuitously nasty instigator.

    And there’ll be no more hints and dark mutterings then, in this forum of friends, about it being chock full of agents of opposition? That would be just great.

  166. Doug says:

    @Meindevon 2:03pm

    Great post.

  167. Meindevon says:

    Thank you Doug. Although it appears I got caught in the middle of another wee and ever more regular stooshie. Could we not take arguments to off topic?

  168. kapelmeister says:

    The preposterousness of this year’s GERS figures attest to the nature of unionist propaganda. Even a quick inspection of the GERS claims by an economically semi-literate citizen would foster incredulity. They were not trying to influence by means of anything resembling an argument.

    What unionist propaganda is can best be described using a term coined by the philosopher J.L. Austin. A Performative utterance is speech which tries to promote something as true, not by reason or argument, but by the very fact of the words being said. Clearly much religious or cultist rhetoric could be described as performative utterance.

    The annual proclamation of Scotland’s dependency by the Treasury never stands up to scrutiny – this year’s less than ever – but it affords the unionist commentariat the chance to reinforce the message through the use of performative utterances.

  169. Liz g says:

    Joe @ 1.00 & 1.02
    I don’t think that the people of Scotland would tolerate the direction your imaging Joe.
    At this point in time there’s more danger of that sort of moneyed interests influencing the Westminster legislature.
    And I’m sure I don’t need to tell anyone here that it’s the Westminster Government that can impose things on the Scottish People that we can do very little about.
    It’s the Westminster elite and establishment that seem to be chock full of unaccountable perverts and the people of Scotland have no way currently of cleaning house!
    Therefore the most obvious way forward is to end the Treaty of Union,have the Scottish Parliament constrained by a Written Constitution and answerable to us “The People”.
    Then, there is at the very least a way for citizens to curb the Government…… OR, would ye risk leaving it to Westminster to manage these things and “trust” that they’d do so in a way that the people of Scotland wants for the first time in 300 odd years?
    So it basically boils down to , if it’s worry about the direction and malign influences on the Law and the Law Makers as we should all be, then, getting yer Government within slapping distance is the only solution…. Aye

  170. vlad (not that one) says:

    Meindevon says @14:19 Could we not take arguments to off topic?
    YES, please.

  171. Breeks says:

    Joe says:
    25 August, 2019 at 1:00 pm
    @ Liz G

    I fear a struggle after independence with the forces who wish to turn Scotland into a post-modern ‘progressive’ shithole. Forces that are international and not short of money.

    I think the reverse Joe. I think we are crawling when we ought to be running.

    I know it’s delusional pipe dream thinking, but when I look at Gaudi’s Cathedral in Barcelona, I ask myself whether or not it would be appropriate for Scotland to undertake such an iconic project to celebrate our emancipation from the Union. Even supposing it would take 150 years to build, why not? Why do those Catalans have all the big ideas?

    It needn’t be a cathedral, or rather not merely a cathedral, but why not incorporate a new prestigious concert venue and sports arena for all of Scotland’s National Sports? Why not embrace motor sport in it’s infrastructure and factor in a Scottish Grand Prix circuit, but factor in or pioneer environmental “green” racing, with either or both electric and hydrogen cars? But most important, a National Stadium for the people… an iconic work of devotion. Just I magine Hogmanay and the fun we might have…

    The reason I love Barcelona’s cathedral is nothing to do with religion, but because it has embraced the craftsmanship in people’s fingertips and the creativity in their heads. Why shouldn’t Scotland sponsor a 21st century arts and craft led initiative to breathe life into our traditional trades, foundries, quarries and carpentry shops and equip our Nation with a revitalised highly skilled workforce that is equal to the maintenance and upkeep of our ailing 18th and 19th Century buildings? We did last Century… and gave the world Charles Rennie MacKintosh. I promise you, we are not ready for the acceleration in decay that is creeping up on us, and we face losing many of our exquisite Scottish townscapes and “old town” quarters. We need new ideas and innovative solutions… and innovative ways to finance and sustain the training of manpower.

    Another notion is a revelation in our attitudes towards business and enterprise. There are vast swathes of Scotland which are rotten areas to do business, blighted by corruption and nepotism, and worse, a forlorn ambivalence that nothing will ever change or improve. But say Scotland did something different… Say Scotland instigated an anti-corruption police squad, but as a country, we went much, much further… Suppose we did for Scottish business what the NHS did for Scottish Health? I don’t mean we throw money subsidising failing businesses, but before they fail we can send in a team to try to help, to make sure their business features in the right short lists and framework agreements and local problems and difficulties can be examined. The NHS can’t cure every ill, and not every business would survive, but surely we can better their odds with a business NHS.

    I read last week that scientists in Canada are pioneering the removal of Hydrogen from fossil fuels like oil without releasing CO2 to the atmosphere. Just imagine the potential of all Scotland’s oil being absolved of it’s Carbon Footprint? Scotland, oil rich and carbon zeroed, with a Norwegian style Oil Fund and a sister Renewables Fund, and best of all, Scotland’s wealth at last being invested in the life skills and fulfilment of our people… and all of what we do is done with environmental awareness and concerted effort to regenerate Scotland for it’s wildlife as much as it’s people…

    Why, why in God’s name are we sitting here waiting for another’s Nation’s Brexit disaster plan to squander yet another generation of Scottish creative ingenuity and potential, when we could and should be pioneering the way to live in the 22nd Century in complete harmony with our planet and it’s resources?

    Fk off Boris. Fk off Farage. Fk off Rees Mogg. Listening to you all is like sticking my head in a 19th Century gas oven. You’re not Dickensian, you are worse than Dickensian, because at least the 19th Century knew what quality and “Clyde built” actually meant. It built railways, ships and bridges; trains, planes and automobiles,… craftsmanship in churches, High Streets, houses and public utilities. Your modern greed is just soulless greed for greed’s sake. All that you build is throwaway trash.

    The Scandinavians and Europeans are already pioneering all electric Ferries. Aren’t we Scot’s a wee bit embarrassed it isn’t “us” doing that? But no, we’re still under dark skies of Mordor, fighting to save the very life of our Ferry Companies from the necrosis of UK economic strategy.

    Get off your knees Scotland. The society we have known is in its death throws. We must fire ourselves, and our kids, with imagination and productive ambition, and prevent the Eton bred Establishment stealing another generation of Scotland’s future.

    Let nothing stop Scottish Independence. Nothing.

  172. Rob Royston says:

    Gus 1940, 1150am. Re the Argyll and Bute 2014 referendum report. Copies and links were attached to a reply to a Craig Murray tweet in the last few days.
    It was Aug 20th about Electoral Commission Obstructionism and was by Pints @johnfmca. About the fourth reply, if you dig in you get various options to download.

  173. Hamish100 says:


    “You are no Scottish nationalist by any stretch of the imagination. You are an European nationalist and a liar. So at least we have assessed of which ‘kind’ we are.”

    Is the heat getting to you? If the UK is in the UN/ World banking organisation is it independent?

    Scotland can be taken to war, have nuclear weapons on its soil without our wishes. This is not the EU that imposes on us but the UK Government. This a Fact.

    CP Scott- “comment is free, but facts are sacred”.

  174. Joe says:

    Narrative v facts:

    Look at the responses to this tweet from orangemanbad (Donald Trump):

    ‘The Dow is down 573 points perhaps on the news that Representative Seth Moulton, whoever that may be, has dropped out of the 2020 Presidential Race!’

    Find the Tweet (if you can stand to go on orange mans twitter account) and take a look at the replies. You would think the sky is falling on everyones head, right?

    So i run some numbers for the last 20 years on the Dow Jones daily returns.

    What is a 573 point drop? Using the closing price of the 22nd of the August v the closing price of the 23rd August (25628-26252)/25628 = -2.43%

    So what does a 2.43% drop in the DJI mean?

    Statistically, based on historical data (Yahoo Finance) anywhere from a daily move up of 2.24% down to -2.19% is within 2 standard deviations (normal daily activity).

    +3.34% to -3.29% is within the 3rd standard deviation (not normal)

    -2.43% is just within the 3rd standard deviation. Just outside of normal activity.

    In 2018 the DJI fell further than this 4 times.

    Why is it a big story now? Could it be that the party of the people (Democrats) have a vested interest in trying to beat the economic drum of doom in order to stop a Trump win in 2020? As analysts have noted – this is the one thing that could stop him.

    Could it be that its more than just Bill Maher who rather see ordinary people financially hurt in order for the people he supports to gain power?

    Look at the comments. Given the numbers ive shown above you can say that these people are almost rabid.

    How does this translate to the UK? Scotland? EU?

    Narrative. We live in a world where narrative is built by political interests, the media repeats it, mindless partisans repeat it again and again and truth can go to hell along with the well being of ordinary people

    On the one hand certain interests are telling people that a Trump presidency is bad for them while taking measures that will HURT ordinary people to get Trump out of office. A market runs on consumer/investor confidence which explains the U.S medias rhetoric.

    Apologies for the U.S example but its easily available data.

    We are in a situation now where Scotland could become an independent country at a time where people are literally propagandized into what to think. There is no honest media outlets. There are just international interests, political parties and the media whores that work for them.

    In such a climate can anyone say that Scotland taking its natural resources and human capital into a FAILING quasi-superstate such as the EU (or with anyone else) is automatically a good idea?


  175. defo says:

    Sorry to hear you don’t like the reality of geo-political blocks Joe. It isn’t the ideal of unity, but outside wishful thinking mate, which is least bad?
    Pick one, ‘cos isolationist fantasies aren’t credible.
    And on our doorstep too. 🙂

  176. Lochside says:

    Joe says:
    24 August, 2019 at 8:53 pm
    Being a small resource rich nation is like being a beautiful young caucasian woman in a Malmö suburb alone at night.

    Tell me Corporal Joe, before you go off duty, what does this particular statement imply?

  177. Dr Jim says:

    I think England should continue to make all of Scotland’s decisions, in that way when they keep shredding us we’ll always have someone else to blame rather than ourselves

    What’s the point of running your own household when someone else can do it for you, much better to whine about injustice than actually do anything about it

    Yes I’d much rather be an insignificant nobody in a large country than a significant somebody in a small country, what’s the point in being noticed, it can only lead to doom and destruction because everybody else is untrustworthy so those in charge of Scotland will be too

    Whether to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous arseholes or dae it yersel

  178. kapelmeister says:

    Ever since he became Premier Boris Johnson has wandered about with a happy and complacent look. You wouldn’t think he was at the centre of one of Europe’s biggest political crises which visibly aged his predecessor.

    Instead his face looks like that of a wee Labour cooncillor in a state of joy because he’s been made a provost.

  179. sassenach says:

    Dear dear, Britnat Joe, is really starting to sh*te himself (in a diarrhoeaic way!! Maybe he’s been recalled to barracks for latrine duties

    We must be winning.

  180. Cubby says:

    Robert J Sutherland@2.05pm

    You are certainly getting tiresome in the way you cannot accept you are wrong and resort to childish insults like “whiny twat” and once again more deflection from the point I am making. Sad.

    Also I never said and have never said Wings was ” chock full of agents of opposition.” Please stop just making stuff up.

    I’ll finish on a positive note again – Scotland will once again be a free and independent country in the near future.

  181. JMD says:

    Heart of Galloway

    Your positive and motivating comments are like a breath of fresh air.

  182. Hamish100 says:

    Jo … we are already in a failing state called the Uk. Seems strange you are so attached to it. Do you like nuclear weapons?

  183. cirsium says:

    @Gus1940, 11.50
    You were looking for the report on postal voting at the IndyRef –
    The questions it raised were never answered.

    Thanks Heart of Galloway for your comments – straws in the wind.

  184. Proud Cybernat says:


    I’ve a wee Twitter poll going so if you have a Twitter account, feel free to cast your vote:

    (Proposed) WoS Party currently polling at 41% behind SNP on 44%.

  185. twathater says:

    @ PC 4.41pm I’m not twatter member but had a look at comments below poll , if the comments are an indication of mindset I give up .( FFS wait another 2 years , cross party committee to decide direction , no candidates or manifesto , WOS party not needed ,wait and see , ) complacency abounds no sense of urgency , Breeks , Lochside , RJS , Liz G ,Ian B , Thepnr , Capella get your names down for the WOS party

  186. Cubby says:


    You are stacking up as one of the most odious people to pitch up posting their disgusting crap on Wings.

  187. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    The Return of 10000 Flags For Yes

    Tartanpigsy’s fundraiser is now sitting at £1,797 raised of £12,500 target, from only 76 donors.

    If only 5% of Wings’ readers donated £1 each, he’d be home and dry.

  188. Clapper57 says:

    What did the Cow Traffic warden say to the Cow driver whose Cow car was sitting on double yellow Lines.

    MOOve it.

    HERD it before….fine… I won’t MILK it…as I don’t want any BEEF with anyone on here…

  189. cynicalHighlander says:



  190. Clapper57 says:

    @ cynicalHighlander @ 6.11pm

    Are you saying my joke was a ‘a male domestic bovine animal that has been castrated and is raised for beef ‘ cynicalHighlander ?

    How UDDERly rude of you………I’m MOOved to tears so I am so I am…..

    I’d STEER clear of critique in the future if I were you…Hee Hee

  191. Unionist Media BDSM Club says:

    From that Scotsman piece on independence requiring not one referenda but two:

    “If the Scottish Government was to produce a “detailed plan”, such as the White Paper in 2014 which was largely accepted as the basis of the future relationship with the UK, this danger could be avoided. But if such proposals “are not fulfilled”, resulting in a “material adverse change” in circumstances, the Independent Commission on Referendums says this would trigger a second referendum.”

    We can of course be confident that the Independent Commission on Referendums immediately demanded another indyref when The Vow was ‘not fulfilled’, right? After all, it’s the *principle* of the thing that concerns them. Fair play and all that.


  192. cynicalHighlander says:


    You Know were you can Stirk that and my Burghers are bigger with Horns. LOL

  193. Clapper57 says:

    @ cynicalHighlander @ 7.31

    As in BIG MACS……Lol..

  194. cynicalHighlander says:


    The Urbanites will of thought that’s Offal. quits

  195. Thepnr says:

    So less than a month ago on 29th July, Johnson was telling anyone who would listen that there would be no discussions with the EU unless they scrapped the backstop.

    A little more than 3 weeks later he was meeting Merkel and Macron not in London but in Berlin and Paris to push his case for abandoning the backstop which still hadn’t been scrapped but that’s a by the by.

    Now today he has a 20 minute meeting with President of the EU Donald Tusk, supposedly to tell the EU that he intended withholding £30 billion of the settlement until there was progress on the future trade arrangement between the UK and the EU. He never mentioned this to tusk at all in their meeting.

    You have to come to the conclusion that the man is a liar, he plays to a domestic audience and has the right wing Tory press falling over themselves to report how “Boris sticks it to the EU” and other such moronic crap.

    Why aren’t they reporting that he failed to stick to his refusal to meet the EU to discuss Brexit until they scrap the backstop? Anyone think they will tell their readers tomorrow that he bottled it when it came to telling the EU that the UK isn’t going to stump up the bill for leaving?

    I really don’t see him being around for too long, I really don’t. He wouldn’t even be there if it wasn’t for the shitiest press in the world. The UK MSM.

  196. Thepnr says:

    Link to Johnson bottling it in his meeting with Tusk.

    The U.K. prime minister headed into one of his key meetings of his first major outing on the world stage — a 20-minute head-to-head with Donald Tusk during the G7 summit — on Sunday against a backdrop of newspaper reports claiming he would tell the European Council president the EU would lose out on up to £30 billion worth of U.K. financial obligations in the event of a no-deal Brexit.

    But when it came to it, the issue didn’t even come up during their talk on the sidelines of the summit in the coastal French town, according to EU officials.

    Indeed, for a prime minister who let it be known during his leadership campaign that he would retain the U.K.’s full £39 billion divorce bill, Downing Street’s acceptance that some money must be paid even in the event of no deal represents a climb-down of sorts.

  197. Thepnr says:

    Article from a German news website by the way LOL

  198. Golfnut says:

    I may be mistaken, but was the question regarding delivery of the Vow not asked in a poll, and a majority rejected the assertion that it had been delivered.

  199. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    cirsium at 4.33 pm

    Thank you. Everybody MUST read this. The postal vote figues in five constituencies (at least)at the 2014 referendum in Scotland are demonstrably impossible to achieve
    The figures are not in dispute

  200. Robert Peffers says:

    @: Joe says: 25 August, 2019 at 12:54 pm:

    ” … Sorry Rob, but you are either gloriously thick or are downright dishonest. Ive already been over how and why the a member of the EU cannot be considered an ‘independent country’.
    Through which discussion you side stepped and straw manned like a pro.”

    Ach! Joe. You’re not very good at this debating thing are you?

    If you were you would not only have accused me of being gloriously thick or, of being downright dishonest but would have accused me of being both.

    I’ll tell you what, though, I do know how to punctuate the English language properly. Seems you do not.

    … Besides the facts of EU membership ive been through EU migration and residency. Ive lived in multiple cities throughout the EU. Ive payed my taxes and social contributions there. There is good reason im back in the UK.”

    Here is a wee hint for you, Joe. I spent 50 years working for the MOD, (Admiralty), as an industrial Civil Servant. As such we could apply for jobs in UK Naval bases throughout the World. Whatever makes you imagine you have seen more of the World than I have?

    ” … So, eh, no I wont ‘give it up’. I actually didn’t expect you would Joe but it was always worth a try.

    ” … As for my ‘kind’?”

    Oh! Yes, Joe, “your kind”, that’ll be right wing Tory bordering upon Fascism, and I am not the only Winger who thinks you are, “That Kind”, and who has said so.

    … My kind is those with lived experience of the subject at hand, an economic education and will for REAL Scottish independence.”

    Is it not a great pity the economic educators you mention failed to teach you basic English grammar and punctuation?

    … I simply do NOT trust anyone who thinks that Scottish independence automatically should mean EU membership.”

    Excuse me Joe, but where have I ever claimed that Scottish independence automatically meant also EU Membership? Desirable, yes, automatic, no.

    ” … Especially those snakes who wish to distort the failings of the EU and the growing problems …

    Now there you go again, Joe, when and where have I ever claimed the EU was perfect? For that matter where have I ever suggested the EU didn’t need improved?

    … For those who do – get an education, get some knowledge and step outside of the ridiculous bubble of ‘EU good, UK bad’. Its much more fucking complicated than that.”

    Now, Joe, where are you getting these, “facts”, from? You have no idea of my education nor of my knowledge of the World outside Scotland or indeed from outside the whole United Kingdom.

    ” … So what kind are you? Given the obvious lies you spout about the EU I can put a word to it.”.

    Now, Whoa! There, Joe. What might be those, “Obvious Lies”, about the EU that you accuse me of spouting?

    You really have to do better than that, Joe. Name the lies you imagine I have told about the EU. Name the lies or admit you are wrong.

    ” … You are no Scottish nationalist by any stretch of the imagination. You are an European nationalist and a liar. So at least we have assessed of which ‘kind’ we are.”

    Now it may have escaped your notice, Joe, but it is not possible to be both a Scottish Nationalist and a European Nationalist.

    There is a very good reason for that because Scotland is one of Europe’s oldest nations and Europe itself is not a nation but is composed of not only many nations but there are several different unions of nations within Europe.

    I’d have thought an Educated man like yourself, at least you claim to be educated in economics, would have known that Europe is not a nation and thus it is not possible to be a, “European Nationalist”.

    Did your education not include a bit written by the Englishman, John Donne who wrote, “Devotions”, in (1624)?

    He wrote:-

    “No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend’s or of thine own were: any man’s death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee.” “

  201. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Dave McEwan Hill

    It should be fairly easy to check the names/address of people who were dead when the voting papers were sent out against the marked up register.

    Actual foul play that everyone would understand, could then be proven beyond doubt.

    Which would carry much more weight than speculation about a possible conspiracy, based on partisan interpretation of a morass of statistics that most will find difficult to follow.

  202. Ealasaid says:

    In-D-Car Gordon Ross 25.8.19 – New In-D-car page a roaring success

  203. Robert Peffers says:

    @Joe says: 25 August, 2019 at 1:00 pm:

    ” … Anyone who was surprised by the recent issues with trans/womens rights need to ask themselves why they didnt see it coming and some did and what comes next.”

    For a self professed educated person, Joe, you seem very ignorant of how political parties operate. They don’t just have one brain between their members and that means all political parties have factions within them.

    Wile the main body of the party usually remain true to the party’s main aims there will be factions working away who have, what is to them, more important objectives.

    They beaver away on their own main objective ignoring the party main objective. That is until the rest of the party sees what they are up to.

    Which seems to be what was happening in the SNP – that is until the main leadership stepped in and stopped them in their tracks.

    Which is where the likes of you comes in and tries to keep the matter going in order to damage the party and its main aims. Fact is, Joe, that the leadership called a halt to the matter by moving it to the back burner where it very well may fizzle out.

    In any case I get the impression that the case is not quite what the MSM is leading us to believe it to be – they do, after all, have an interest in damaging the party and independence but facts are facts, the matter has been halted at least for the time being.

    So just why are you attempting to make out it is still going?

  204. Lenny Hartley says:

    Well Well Well, who would have thunk it, India had its own version of Gers and it “Unique” accounting practices long before Scotland.

  205. TJenny says:

    Proud Cybernat – your ‘wee’ poll’s looking good. So far:

    1024 votes

    SNP 1+2 = 42%

    SNP 1, WOSP 2 = 43%

    Waahay. 🙂

  206. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Robert Peffers says:

    “…there will be factions working away who have, what is to them, more important objectives.”

    Was membership of such factions not outlawed back in the early eighties?

    I have a vague memory of the expulsion of several prominent members who refused to toe the line on that matter.

    IMHO the trans nonsense was not sneaked in the back door when the leadership’s attention was elsewhere, they just failed to realise that a substantial number of supporters would see it as one retreat from reality more than they could thole, in the name of party unity.

    And for once made their voices heard … hence the climb-down.

  207. Liam says:

    “Boris Johnson loses Brexit bite in Biarritz”

    A very apposite headline as, in French, ‘Bite’ means ‘prick’ (cock, peter, knob, dong… whatever…).

  208. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Col.Blimp IV at 10.05

    You obviously haven’t understood the main point There were five constituncies in Scotland which registered a 97% turnout on the postal vote.THESE FIGURES ARE NOT IN ANY DISPUTE.Such a turnout is unprecedented and impossible.
    I repeat
    The report makes it clear that such a turnout cannot be validly achieved.

    The European Commission determined tha the UK postal voting system was “a recipe for large scale fraud”.
    They are correct and anybody who thinks that the UK Government woudn’t do such a thing is guilty of naivety on an alarming scale.

  209. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Dave McEwan Hill

    I read the report and agree that turnouts on that scale are ludicrous.

    But it is not me that has to be convinced that electoral fraud would have to be perpetrated on fairly large scale, for such results to be achieved.

    9999 out of 10,000 would not dream of reading the report under any circumstances and most will come to a knee-jerk conclusion of “sour grapes”.

    The authorities will take no action on this unless their hand is forced.

  210. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Anyone who has had much to do with the election process, will be well aware that there is scope for cheating and have witnessed or have been privy to anecdotal evidence of fraudulent personal, proxy and postal voting and malpractice by staff.

  211. Dr Jim says:

    Sky news tells us that because England was so wonderful and won the cricket sporting event and that combined with the lovely heatwave that the whole of *Britain* feels ready to face anything and Boris Johnson and Brexit seems much less of a worry now for a nation invigorated

    Now if that doesn’t tell anyone that Scotland must must get ourselves separated from this bunch of infantile morons who think that a game of bat and ball in the sunshine determines a country’s future then there’s something wrong with our heads just as much as there’s something wrong with theirs

    Oh and some stupid 12 year old Tory *journalist* lassie thinks we’ve got a cheek moaning about the Amazon burning because they’re only trying to grow their economy just like everybody else, we know there’s climate change, but still, she says

  212. Fireproofjim says:

    I recall that there were some English elections for councils (in Birmingham I think) where the postal votes were shown to be false so that the election had to be re-run and several people ended in jail.
    We really need a foolproof method for Inderef2.

  213. frogesque says:


    Briefly mentioned on BBC news but local reports, pics and bids show Woodmill High School in Dunfermline is still a massive blaze and the fire looks as if it has spread to the main building.

    Firefighters still trying to get it under control but it looks really bad. Some doubt also about the water supply being inadequate and houses in the vicinity have no running water.

  214. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Dr Jim

    First Worlder’s excel at vilifying the good people of Bongobongoland … for doing the same things that we did at various times in the past.

    Deforestation is just one of the many things that our forebears got up to that helped make us what we are today.

    The Amazon is not “ours” as Macron claimed yesterday, any more than the gold that the Conquistadors murdered the Incas and Aztecs for, all those years ago was.

  215. Liz g says:

    Robert Peffers @ 10.02
    Re. The Comment that ye canny be a member of the European Union and be independent…. Or some such nonsense (playing catch up here)
    The European Union has an – Article 50 –
    A mechanism by which any member of it can leave.
    This makes it a safe Union to join.
    If the world turns and EU membership no longer serves Scotland, then, we have Holyrood trigger artical 50.
    There is no issue here!

    I would go farther and let the lessons of Unions in Scotland’s History serve us……….

    I would argue to have included in our written Constitution, —— That Holyrood has our consent to sign the people of Scotland up to any International Treaties that they, ( Holyrood ) consider to be in our best interests.
    But Holyrood is Constitutionally bound to put ANY and ALL memberships of International Bodies before the People of Scotland every 25/30 year’s. No Exceptions. Failure to do so will Void the Treaty in question automatically ——

    Which would mean no one born into any Union is denied a choice about it.. That’s a real Constitutional Legacy for future generations, and at this place and time in History there’s not one International Body or Institution which could see our position on this as unreasonable!
    NATO,the EU, the UN will all have to understand and accept that Holyrood is Constitutionally forbidden to sign the Scots to anything for longer than 30 years.

    Compare and Contrast the 1707 Treaty of Union?
    3 Centuries???
    Three Hundred Year’s???
    Even the Fairy Tales thought 2 hundred years was more than enough time to keep a curse active!!!
    A Union that in ” real world ” ” real time ” is threatening Scotland’s Independent Nationhood!
    Only Unions with a “Sun Set” clause offer any kind of protection for Scots (Europe’s oldest people’s)….
    No get out, No interested… Can be Scotland’s position and currently the EU is no threat to that stance!

    How are ye keeping these day’s Robert ?

  216. Liz g says:

    Twathater @ 5.07
    Why thank you,that’s quite a complement, and quite illustrious company you’ve included me in… 🙂
    Thing is twathater,while I do what I can for my Country and will serve her where I’m able… Me and the Rev don’t agree on a few things.
    The last thing he would need is me.
    If a Wings party were to happen they all need to be on the same page,so that it is clear what they stand for/or against.
    I’m no a team player.
    I’m kind of myopic about the Constitution and if “anyone” no matter who, put a toe across the line with it I’d create merry hell.
    Consider… Just one Example….
    I’m hoping that we have —- No Nuclear Weapons on Scottish Soil —– written into our Constitution.
    The Rev makes a case (and a good one ) to rent Faslane and Coleport for a time to Westminster.
    I’d not consent to allowing the Westminster Government to do on Scottish Soil something we’ve forbidden Holyrood to do.
    But and it’s a big But.
    I’d not argue this from behind him and undermine him just giving the media something to spin.
    I’ll argue it upfront…..
    Ye can’t do that in a party… Which is why I’m no a member of any party…. Still willing to be Queen of Scotland though,but only for 2 hundred year’s 🙂 no 3 that’s jist out of orders, by the way,so it is 🙂

  217. twathater says:

    Nae bother Liz g , but that is exactly why I put your name up with the others ,you tak nae shit yet you respond sensibly and rationally ( sometimes ) your vision of a future Scotland includes empathy and compassion for our citizens and I am sure you would ( ahem ) not be afraid or cowed to voice your opinions
    There are lots more wings commenters who IMO also fit this description , but I was feeling rather frustrated after reading some of the comments btl on proud cybernats twatter vote

    I have said MANY times that I support Stu’s proposal for a wings regional party but I think it should be formed NOW not for the 2021 election

    I watched in D car Gordon Ross earlier and he was suggesting that from info he had received , that the SNP SG were considering fighting the next election seeking a further mandate for a referendum , they already have 3 how would another make any difference
    This is the problem with who to believe and how many rumours are believable , it’s common sense not to highlight your moves to your opponents but patience is not endless

  218. Liz g says:

    Twathater @ 2.16
    Hey Twathater, my friend…
    I can’t answer for the SNP,other than to say If they are building frustration and demand …. It’s working…
    But I have no real way of knowing…
    If it is any consultation….
    I have spoken to a few friends who are willing to step up..
    And, they are exactly the sort of people we need, I can get behind them,totally, and I will….
    They are the sort of people who can compromise better,much better than I could.
    Not because they’re weak but rather because they see the big picture….
    I’m with you in that we need this party anyway … But no matter what … Nothing changes without Independence is the understanding…
    I’m talking of people who see and understand the stuff I’m saying about an independent Scotland,but also understand that we won’t get everything that we imagine.
    I can’t do that… I want it all…
    But I wiil/would support and trust them to deal from the best interests of Scotland in all that they do…
    Like I said…. If we – have – to “Rent Out Faslane and Coleport” I want the Rev to do the negotiating over it.
    And I don’t want someone like me spoiling it…
    But I do want someone like me making pretty damm sure that Westminster keep to the terms and conditions of the lease!
    We all have a role ….. And you do too!
    X 🙂

  219. Liz g says:

    Twathater @ 2.16
    Respond Rationally…… SOMETIMES….
    Oh do tell 🙂 🙂 🙂
    I’ll be over here makin like I don’t know what ever ye mean!!

  220. Sinky says:

    Pinstripe in Herald financial pages with another column saying how useless an independent Scotland would be.

  221. Ahundredthidiot says:

    prick on telly from aberdein considine blaming house sales uncertainty on 2014 vote, which are up (apparantly) despite brexit looming. So, brexit good, scottish independence, bad.

  222. Breeks says:

    twathater says:
    26 August, 2019 at 2:16 am

    I watched in D car Gordon Ross earlier and he was suggesting that from info he had received , that the SNP SG were considering fighting the next election seeking a further mandate for a referendum , they already have 3 how would another make any difference
    This is the problem with who to believe and how many rumours are believable , it’s common sense not to highlight your moves to your opponents but patience is not endless…

    It’s not just the 4th mandate that alarms me, it’s the implicit notion that a successful election returning a solid SNP majority in either Holyrood or Westminster, or both, is presented as a decisive achievement, when in fact we are just revisiting victories we have already won before but which were insufficient to deliver Independence.

    A landslide SNP victory in Westminster wasn’t enough, and even the “next to impossible” outright majority at Holyrood is an achievement we’ve already delivered, and it wasn’t enough.

    It troubles me that SNP success in a General Election is considered a viable option and route to Independence. If our government was unwilling to recognise the sovereign distinction of Scotland in a UK Referendum, then doesn’t that set an awkward precedent for a similar distinction in a “UK” General Election?

    Every page in the Battle Plan seems like a stale rerun of a strategy that has already led to failure. If winning 53 out of 56 Westminster seats isn’t enough, doesn’t it set the bar that anything less than 53 seats will be inadequate because it’s been inadequate before, and yet if winning 53 out of 56 seats wasn’t enough, what possible difference would it actually 54 make, or even a 100%, 56/56 of SNP seats? Haven’t we proved democracy alone won’t be enough?

    Even if we somehow defeat the UK Establishment and actually get our way over holding another referendum, isn’t that “victory” too just another rerun of somewhere we’ve already been, where we sit back and endure our Scottish democracy being distorted and manipulated by the British Establishment’s indoctrination and propaganda?

    We’ve been there, done that,… didn’t work. We need to do “something” differently next time around, or we court disaster,…. again. I know I sound like a broken record, but the decisive change in our strategy MUST be centred around Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty.

    Boris Johnson reckons a pound spent in Croydon is worth more than a pound spent in Strathclyde. The irony of that notion is that a vote returned in Scotland actually IS worth more than a vote returned in England, because a vote in Scotland is sovereign in Scotland and represents the will of a sovereign people which cannot be lawfully overruled.

    We don’t have to proactively “do” anything with Sovereignty beyond proving it exists. We need neither a mandate nor a majority for it. We can readily defeat Brexit, and defeat the Union too, merely by disputing and shooting down their bogus usurpation of sovereignty, and finally fight the battle where we actually win.

    Given the imminent catastrophe of Brexit and the hollowness and impotence of previous electoral success, why in the name of God are we still refusing to play the trump card that is sovereignty? If not now, in this existential jeopardy that our Nation is currently in, then in God’s name when???

  223. manandboy says:

    The Scottish Government’s input on Brexit might be thought of in certain circles as being influential if not exactly decisive. The antidote to that belief is to read articles written outside of Scotland, like this one, through which it is possible to get a glimpse of a much more European perspective. Make no mistake, Brexit will be ‘sorted’ by the 27 Member States of the EU, not by Westminster, with its haemorrhaging economy and its political disarray. And certainly not by Scotland.

    “Talk of integrity of union way beyond sell-by date.

    Johnson speaks of Belfast Agreement’s ‘delicate balance’ but is ignorant of it. ”

    The article begins : “The contempt for Boris Johnson was palpable in Edinburgh last week during a discussion at the city’s book festival on Brexit and Ireland.

    Expressions of empathy with Irish frustrations were hardly surprising given that 62 per cent of Scots who voted in 2016 were against Brexit, but the disdain expressed for London-based Tories has intensified recently in tandem with their crude sloganeering about being prepared to triumphantly exit the EU without a deal.

    As pointed out by the European Movement in Scotland, before he became prime minister, Johnson declared “there is no plan for no-deal, because we’re going to get a great deal”.”

  224. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Breeks at 7.31

    So what is it exactly that we do? Do tell.
    (Apart,that is, from using our sovereignty in having a referendum once we know the outcome of the Brexit shambles – as promised).

  225. starlaw says:

    If SNP called a referenda now , what would we use for polling stations Yoon councils would not open schools then what ?

  226. Abulhaq says:

    A world of Poldark, Peaky Blinders, endless Midsomer Murders, Jane Austen ad nauseam…
    For God’s sake get us out of this anglo hell!

  227. Famous15 says:

    Scotland robbed of over a trillion pound oil fund and proceeds being used to cheat and brainwash the peoples of Scotland to stay in a corrupt Union is not a good thing.

    It is time for independence.

  228. Dan says:

    Today a headline in our Zombie Nation reads – “Gordon Brown calls for independent inquiry into impact of no-deal Brexit”

    What current position of influence does Broon hold that gives his view any higher priority or worth than say Mr Smythe of No 9 Acacia Avenue wanting an independent inquiry into Dark Money involvement with the Leave campaign.

    Dan hereby calls for an independent inquiry into why denizens of the Un-United Kingdom have to put up with our MSM “newspapers” and Controversial State Broadcaster aka The BBC continually showering us with the shitey pontifications of a bunch of has-been relics, whose past actions played a not insignificant part in leading us into the current clustefuck we find ourselves in.

    If you buy something as insignificant as a toaster, you have consumer rights in case it’s faulty or not as advertised.
    But woe betide you get mislead into far more serious situations that strip you of your freedoms and rights by a bunch of charlatan politicians, because there’s no “Have you been mis-sold a Union call 1707 666999 Hotline” to help your sorry ass after the fact.

  229. Rick H Johnston says:

    A UK general election looks imminent.
    Of course the Scots are sovereign, and when the election is announced the SNP the mandate it seeks should it gain the majority of seats.
    Before the poll we’d have to know whether the UK was in or out of the EU..
    Only then would it be clear if we could seek clarification on EU membership.

  230. Lochside says:

    Dave McEwan Hill says:
    26 August, 2019 at 8:42 am
    Breeks at 7.31

    So what is it exactly that we do? Do tell.
    (Apart,that is, from using our sovereignty in having a referendum once we know the outcome of the Brexit shambles – as promised).

    Dave, as you have apparently accepted that one of the agencies validating the probability of an S30 based Ref, the Electoral Commission, was complicit in allowing and not investigating criminal breaches in postal voting, then why would you question Breeks’ logical and sound basis for Sovereign assertion of Scotland’s dissolution of the Union?

    By accepting the 2014 Ref as the only method as to ascertaining our national identity, the English establishment conned us into , for the first time since the institution of universal suffrage into asserting ourselves as a colony. The Claim of Right voted for in the UK Parliament was a ‘non binding endorsement’ i.e SFA, not Sovereign recognition.

    We are now locked into Referenda, which are controlled by the UK State in order to assert ourselves because of the 2014 result. Belatedly, the SNP are now considering returning to utilising the GE as a vehicle for initialising legitimacy for yet another REF.

    Under Margaret Thatcher, the convention for the sham know as an representative democracy allowed Scotland the right to take back our Independence via the winning of the majority number of seats representing Scotland. I pointed out several threads ago that in 2015, we had the overwhelming majority of seats and 51% of the popular vote. I was told by some on here, who I have respect for, to ‘waken up at the back’ and to acknowledge that the time immemorial SNP doctrine based on the aforesaid system was no longer past of the ‘manifesto’.

    I have never accepted this weak accession to party political manoeuvring. Despite raising at branch meetings, the Act of Union as a basis for the leadership to lead with in political debate and in consciousness raising of the general public. All I was met with was incomprehension and shrugs. During the 2017 campaign my local MP told me Sovereignty and Independence were not to be mentioned…only our performance in ‘Parliament’. Needless to say 1/2 a million votes vanished and he hung on by his fingernails. The meetings are a sham, reduced to less than a quorum from the 100 + attendances when I joined in post Ref.

    It is interesting to note that at this critical point of crisis in our nation’s very existence, that I have never once heard Nicola Sturgeon or any of the leadership mention the Act of Union or the sovereignty of the Scottish people. All I hear in the chaos of the approaching storm are platitudes about not liking the party’s name and condemning anti-English abuse ( where?), in other words diversion and prevarication.

    I was not particularly struck at first by the REV’s idea for a Wings party. I do not believe in dividing your forces in the face of the enemy. I know that is not his intention. However, it appeared intuitively wrong. But, as the navel gazing continues, I will consider voting for any party that exhibits a burning desire to assert our right as a nation to challenge Westminster on its international breaches of our Sovereignty. A party that asserts that Sovereignty, first, last and unequivocally.

  231. Rick H Johnston says:

    To clarify.. It has to be all about independence. No muddying of the waters is acceptable.
    The folk need to know they’re being asked to endorse Scottish Statehood.
    That would fire up the activists and the people themselves, and would leave no room for the mandate to be questioned.

  232. manandboy says:

    “.. this is a great, great country, the UK,”

    PMJohnston illustrating his personal British Nationalist brainwashing, which contains not one but two lies – the UK is not a ‘country’ nor is it ‘great’.

    Johnson, sent out once again by Dominic Cummings, to entertain and distract.

  233. manandboy says:

    Oh dear, I’m in trouble. I forgot to archive. Sorry guys. Just wait till your my age.

  234. manandboy says:

    I’m getting worse, … you’re my age.

  235. Dan says:

    @manandboy says at 10:16 am

    That direct link in your post to the Guardian page has already been archived 5 times in a couple of days.
    You recently managed to archive a link or two with a little encouragement, but is it the case that you really just cannot be arsed archiving the links you post to unionist papers that oppose our objectives, or are you actually wanting to give them traffic?

    Folks can bookmark or add the the linked page below to their toolbar, and it takes less than a minute to check if the page is already archived or save it if needs be.

  236. Dan says:

    manandboy says at 10:18 am

    Oh dear, I’m in trouble. I forgot to archive. Sorry guys. Just wait till your my age.

    You can teach an old dog new tricks! We’ll send that Victoria Stillwell round to your gaff. You’ll soon comply…

  237. Effijy says:

    Bojo the Clown’s European Tour Continues.

    New announcements he claims the BBC Patsys should give
    The elderly free TV Licenses, which we all know will come out of the
    Westminster Treasury .

    A few extra Million now to go to Brazil Forrest Fires.

    Already Billions each pledged to-
    Prison Service
    And Brexit Preparations.

    As we are in our 10th year of Austerity I presume all this all added to the UK Debt.

    I’d like SNP ministers to enquire what share Scotland will be given of the make
    Bojo look good Billions and what would the interest on it be over how many years.

  238. Dorothy Devine says:

    If indeed there was a 96% uptake of postal votes in certain areas is it not awfully easy to check the physical vote and the postal vote allowing one to realise that there had been a vote of 130%?

    And should that not have been done?

    What exactly is the electoral commission for?

    And do we need UN observers next time?

    And proper policing of the event?

    Passed my neighbours car with UKOK still on it , thought UKF**KED and walked on.

  239. Al-Stuart says:

    Has anyone noticed this thread has been squished to a very thin column on the left of computer screens and IPads etc., due to Terry Callachan pasting an inappropriately long link?

    With respect Terry, Stuart Campbell has asked folk not to post incredibly long links as it bu66ers up the page format.

    Terry, you can shorten long links with the useful facility at…


  240. Breeks says:

    Dave McEwan Hill says:
    26 August, 2019 at 8:42 am

    Breeks at 7.31

    So what is it exactly that we do? Do tell.
    (Apart,that is, from using our sovereignty in having a referendum once we know the outcome of the Brexit shambles – as promised).

    You petition the UN either to recognise the sanctity and ascendency of Scottish sovereignty, or, if you baulk at the political mandate you have for doing that, you petition the UN to dispute the legitimacy of UK Parliamentary Sovereignty which is acting unconstitutionally as a colonial aggressor.

    Simultaneously, petition the EU to recognise the same constitutional anomalies as above, and call on them to suspend Article 50 until the disputed aspects of UK Parliamentary Sovereignty have been resolved.

    I would also, as I have said repeatedly present a constitutional test case before the ECJ to clarify their adjudication that revoking Article 50 is a sovereign prerogative in view of the formally disputed status of UK sovereignty. It is my opinion that Scotland might secure the right to revoke Article 50 unilaterally, and have that capacity recognised by the EU.

    In my opinion, Brexit in those circumstances would be undeliverable until the truth was ascertained about the respective status of UK Parliamentary sovereignty and Scottish Sovereignty; an argument we would win, not least because Westminster has formally recognised the Claim of Right and sovereignty of the Scottish people.

    The only way Westminster could proceed with Brexit is to win the argument over sovereignty, which it wont, or drop Scotland out of their Brexit equation.

    It is inconceivable that Westminster would abandon Brexit in response to what was in effect a Scottish constitutional veto, but even if it did, I firmly believe the Union of the United Kingdom would become untenable after the Establishment’s disinformation about the unitary status of the United Kingdom being a single country as opposed to a bilateral treaty between two Kingdoms was exposed as a sham.

    We have the Constitutional mandate and legitimacy to do this.
    We have the democratic mandate to do this and dispute Brexit.
    We have the jeopardy of very real risk of catastrophe being suffered upon our economy.
    We have International Law and constitutional provenance on our side.
    We have inadequate time left available to chart a way out of Brexit via negotiation, and an aggressive colonial “Authority” seeking to curtail our democratic institutions and impose it’s will upon us.

    That’s just the beginning of what “I’d” do.

    By return, your question is nonsense. You would exercise your sovereign prerogative to establish IF you’re sovereign? That’s the constitutional equivalent of Russian roulette, shooting yourself to death to confirm you were alive.

  241. Colin Alexander says:

    English and Welsh Bank Holiday today. In Scotland it should be business as usual.

    Scotland: A country where Scottish public services are closed because another country is having a holiday.

    Bank branches in Scotland are closed. They apply English Bank Holidays to Scotland. Their excuse is they have to keep all the business group aligned. (I’m fairly sure they don’t apply Scottish Bank Holidays to England to keep England aligned with Scotland).

    I have complained to my bank that this is indirect discrimination on the grounds of race. People in Scotland are disadvantaged by the application of English holidays to Scotland when Scottish holidays are not applied to England.

    I attempted to contact the Equality and Human Rights Commission in Scotland: They are also closed. Apparently they do the same. Indirect discrimination by the defenders of equality?

    I invite Wings readers to also make complaints to their bank, if its closed today, and the Equality and Human Rights Commission or to other organisations who follow this discriminatory practice.

    Does anyone agree with me?

  242. Breeks says:

    In very broad parallel, you do what Scotland did in 1320 when existentially threatened by the avarice of a colonial aggressor. You present your sovereign legitimacy, and challenge theirs, before the “neutral” and disinterested arbitration of the International Community and International law.

    It’s an emotive parallel I know, but if this was 1319 rather than 2019, on their apparent trajectory our 14th Century SNP government would be stone deaf to calls for the Declaration of Arbroath to be lodged. They’d be procrastinating interminably over their mandate. I know that’s a cheap shot, sorry, but it focuses the mind.

  243. Effijy says:

    I have a story to share that I pray is untrue.

    The Police and prosecutors now feel that they have a water tight case
    Against Alex Salmond.

    My dilemma is, was there some form of consensual relationship/s
    How would you prove one persons word over another if only 2 present,
    other than you have Monica Lewinski type evidence that an event took place,
    How do I believe any evidence or judgement when for me the Courts, Police, Civil Servants and Prosecutors have been proven to be corrupt on so many occasions in support of Westminster?

    No doubt any dates select by the Courts will also be aliened to have maximin negative effect
    On Indy Ref 2 and Independence.

    Politicians like Jeremy Thorp, Cyril Smith, Greville Janner, etc, all had long lives in office?

  244. Proud Cybernat says:

    So the final result makes for some interesting reading. Not a scientific poll, of course, but interesting nevertheless:

    Annie and Murdo – “Feel the burn!!”

  245. Golfnut says:

    @ Breeks
    I would much rather see Sovereignty in action, petitions by the Sovereign people of Scotland ordering the Scottish Parliament to act on the instructions we give them. We are not just sovereign on the days we allowed to vote, we are Sovereign every day.

  246. Dan says:

    @Breeks at 10:51 am

    Your suggestion to initiate such petitions is an interesting one.
    Here’s a link to some discussion from late 2018 starting with a comment by mr thms. Several further comments consider articles 50, 49, and 48.
    This is in the context of there being a “transitional arrangement”, but what if there is a no deal crash out. Would these options still be available…

  247. galamcennalath says:

    “Scotland is increasingly aware that Johnson simply doesn’t care if it leaves. Indeed, members of the so-called Conservative and Unionist party have expressly said that end of our three centuries old Union is a price worth paying for their blind infatuation with Brexit. “

    An article by an English LibDem saying Brexit should be stopped to save the UK union.

    What possible future does he think the UK could no offer Scotland that would satisfy our growing aspirations? More of the same we’ve been getting for decades? Think not.

    While he is probably right that if Brexit is stopped, the UK will be given another temporary reprieve, but why bother? The UK is now incapable of being ‘united’ because Brexits is just a symptom of more serious and fundimental issues.

    Let’s get everyone’s future paths sorted out NOW.

  248. bittie45 says:

    Colin Alexander @ 11:00

    Definitely. According to Scotland does not have a bank holiday today. My council and bank web pages just say “closed public holidays” without listing the dates, so its interesting how its assumed that “we” should know that we have to fit in with the English bank holiday.

    Yet another example of bias at the institutional level.

  249. Ghillie says:

    Dave MacEwan Hill, Starlaw, Galamcenalth and other old hands =) Well said.

    The trolls and moles are busy busy.

    Tedious but a good sign 🙂

  250. Bobp says:

    Starlaw 8.51am. Hgv lorries hastily converted into a polling station. A bit like the breast cancer screening lorries visiting outlying areas.

  251. Dan says:

    I don’t know if this morning’s latest seismic activity is due to fracking or the folk of Lancaster moshing to the AC/DC songs I dedicated to them yesterday morning.

  252. Breeks says:

    @ Dan…

    I’m at work so I’ll read it later, but if we get our constitutional act together, there’s no reason why Scotland should be a successor state. When the Union dissolves, Scotland and England will revert to being constitutional equals with the successor/continuer state construct not being applicable.

    The downside is that might see Scotland inheriting a share of UK debt but of course, offset by a reciprocal share of UK assets.

    But that might work out to our advantage. As an oil producing and renewable rich small country, a significant amount of debt might help to prevent a rock hard Scottish currency strangling our lucrative exports.

    The logic behind the currency union proposed in 2014 was that a currency union would stabilise the collapse of an English pound and temper the hardness of a Scottish pound. Denying Scotland a currency union seemed stupid, but if we now opt for a Scottish currency, we will need to be careful we look after our exports before a hard Scottish pound makes them too expensive to sell abroad.

    I’d rather be in Scotland’s shoes trying to make our currency weaker but enjoying cheap imports and holidays, than England with a negative balance of trade missing out on cheap exports, and imports being very expensive even before the tariffs.

  253. SilverDarling says:


    Them and ‘Us’? Do you know what a ‘troll’ is? It is not someone who openly disagrees with you on an open forum. A mole is not someone who disagrees with a failing strategy.

    Many of the people posting here who express frustration at the SNP intransigence want Independence just as much as anyone else and that does not make them ‘trolls’ or ‘moles’. A ‘troll’ is a disruptive internet presence, a ‘mole’ – well you know what you mean by that as there are no secrets here. I think you should look to your ‘old hands’ for people who do not allow open discussion and derail the flow of ideas.

    This bunker mentality of the ‘old hands’ makes them look rigid and unable to adapt to changing circumstance.They come across as frightened and closed off to any other way of doing things. They seem terrified the SNP may lose votes because that is the only way of doing things in their minds.

    All we hear from the old hands is that the SNP have a plan.

    Well time is running out and we know the UK government do not even play by their own rules never mind the rules of those who inhabit their own moral high ground and who think chanting about ‘Sovereignty’ conquers all. It is interesting they are pushing that even now when this site may be their undoing.

  254. Mac says:

    @silver darling

    “…look to your ‘old hands’ for people who do not allow open discussion and derail the flow of ideas…”

    Well said sir.

  255. starlaw says:

    bobp 12.29

    could be done but would take some organising. There may be a better way coming up after Holyrood re-convenes with councillors being held responsible for any obstruction to Holyrood organised elections.

  256. admiral says:

    Effijy says:
    26 August, 2019 at 11:27 am
    I have a story to share that I pray is untrue.
    The Police and prosecutors now feel that they have a water tight case
    Against Alex Salmond.

    TBH, if someone close to the prosecution is leaking such sensitive information:

    1) It’s severely prejudicial to the defence, and
    2) The prosecution must be worried that the case isn’t as much of a shoo-in as they want the public to think.

  257. Mac says:


    “No doubt any dates select by the Courts will also be aliened to have maximin negative effect
    On Indy Ref 2 and Independence.”

    It may work in the opposite way to what you suggest. No doubt they will try to align dates and use it to best advantage. But anyone who votes differently will be a very very small percentage.

    If you are YES, you are YES. The Salmond case is unconnected.

  258. Robert Peffers says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland says:24 August, 2019 at 8:04 pm:

    ” … Robert Peffers @ 18:57,
    Thanks for another demonstration of the warm community spirit for which you are so well-known on here.
    If indy depended only on gratuitously offensive egotists like you, it would take as long again as you have been claiming to support it. If it hadn’t died through lack of nourishment first.”

    I take it your poor reading comprehension prevented you from understanding that bit about the great number of times I have already posted that information in great detail.

    So as we say in Scotland, “Awa an bile yer heid ya utter numptie”. I am not at your beck and call to repeatedly post things you should be well aware of simply by reading Wings comments. Perhaps there is a slight chance that if you have to look up the information by yourself it just may stick in your memory.

    There are limits to the number of times even the most patient commenter is ready to post the same information over and over again. I have reached that limit.

  259. Effijy says:

    When is a leak not a leak?
    When someone in Westminster is up to no good.

  260. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    galamcennalath @ 11:50,

    Ach, Ed Davey is doing his LibDem version of cherry-picking, not to mention clutching at straws. In the current climate, who in England in a general election is going to give a damn about giving up on Brexit for the sake of “saving the (UK) union”? People vote for all sorts of reasons, but at heart they are mostly about keeping their own little show on the road.

    I suppose it’s nice that Davey at least publicly recognises that Scotland has suffered “neglect” (though we on here might prefer “gaslighted exploitation”), but exactly what practicable remedy does he propose?

    Well, like El Gordo before him, in practice it translates into nothing more than vacuous sweet nothings.

  261. Jack Murphy says:

    Off Topic.
    An exclusive preview of the House of Yoonery tactics when IndyRef2 is announced:

    ‘Bring Oot Yer Dead’

  262. Welsh Sion says:

    Effijy @ 1.14 pm

    When is a leak not a leak?

    Bernard: That’s another of those irregular verbs, isn’t it? I give confidential press briefings; you leak; he’s being charged under section 2A of the Official Secrets Act.

    Source: Yes Prime Minister, Series Two (1987-88)
    Episode One: Man Overboard

  263. Sinky says:

    Again this morning on BBC radio Gms they refused to accept that telecommunications is reserved to Westminster and hectored Paul Wheelhouse on when is the Scottish Government going to get 100% broadband coverage.

    No wonder the public is confused. Same with Gers, not once on TV or Radio have I heard anyone explain in detail the billions Scotland is charged for items that wouldn’t apply or be greatly reduced expenditure after independence.

  264. Lochside says:

    Silver Darling agreed with your post until the end part about Sovereignty. Maybe I misunderstood you, but the statement:

    ‘ those who inhabit their own moral high ground and who think chanting about ‘Sovereignty’ conquers all. It is interesting they are pushing that even now when this site may be their undoing’ appears to undermine the rest of it’.
    Apologies, if I misconstrued your meaning.

    Maybe this definition will clarify in people’s minds what political power really is:
    ‘Sovereignty is the full right and power of a governing body over itself, without any interference from outside sources or bodies. In political theory, sovereignty is a substantive term designating supreme authority over some polity’

    If anyone thinks we in Scotland are operating at this level of autonomy, then they are in for a nasty awakening. Ruth Davidson won 13 x seats for a previously moribund party by screaming about British Sovereignty being threatened by ‘Indy 2′, yet with 3 x times the votes , the SNP have never attempted to mobilise the same emotionally based exhortation to the Scottish electorate i.e. Stop UK oppression and take back control’ might work eh?

  265. Golfnut says:


    Yes, my first thought. They could well be trying to collapse the case before it even gets to trial.

  266. call me dave says:


    “Not devolved power” says Wheelhouse a little weakly.

    “Aye but…but 5G-whiz what are the S-Gov going to do about it” asks shortbread.

    “What about wee Jessie in the Utter Hebrides still using a crystal set” Eh!.

    Sturgeon must act etc etc and so it goes… Another day in the colony. 🙂

  267. galamcennalath says:

    Are journalists as thick as mince? Or, do they believe their readership is? Or, fatally, both?

    Today’s oddly ridiculous story appearing everywhere is the the EU won’t have a trade deal with the UK if money owed isn’t forthcoming.

    Doh! How did that become newsworthy?

    Where do you start on output like that? It suggests either journals don’t understand the role of the Withdrawal Agreement as essential precursor to trade talks. Or, propagandists are banking on much of the public being ignorant.

    Of course, there’s also the layers of political lies around all this which adds to the confusion, or subterfuge. The more unscrupulous politicians peddled the notion that a trade agreement could be done with the EU prior to leaving. Under the Lisbon Treaty this was impossible. Trade negotiations/agreements with the EU or anyone else cannot be begun until after leaving.

    If the UK leaves with no deal, then to move on to trade talks the outstanding issues covered in the Withdrawal Agreement are still there. Money owed, citizenship rights, and the border in Ireland still need resolved prior to trade talks. Alternative realities are mischief making!

    That tale I have posted before given to student journalists by an experienced lecturer …. one guy says it’s raining, another says it’s sunny. Your job as journalists is not to report two opinions, it’s to look out the window to see which is lying and that should the basis of the story. We are in the position where anyone who opens their eyes can see it’s raining, but the media insist on saying it’s sunny.

  268. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Sinky @ 13:48,

    Yes, if there is anything worse than endless demands for mitigation, it’s endless spurious demands for mitigation.

    The blame should lie where the actual responsibility rests. Simples really (though a concept apparently foreign to the BritNat media).

  269. manandboy says:

    Dan, have a heart, that was my first slip-up since you ‘converted’ me to I will re-double my efforts. It’s gonnae be hard going in Dan’s new stricter Scotland!

  270. manandboy says:

    Completely OT.

    Any business or company, like, for example, a fishmonger, a bus company or a football club, which becomes ‘incorporated’, then becomes a ‘Limited’ Company.

    This is akin to adding ‘legal’ milk to a cup of ‘legal’ tea. Once done, it cannot be undone. The milk cannot be separated from the tea, legal or otherwise.

    Now, everyone more or less, knows that, but some, incredibly, refuse stubbornly to accept it. They make The Flat Earth Society seem perfectly reasonable.

    But then, there’s nothing even approaching reasonableness about WATP and the Scottish Unionist media. Unless of course you think that ‘No Surrender’ represents the centre ground.

    A similar situation exists with the ‘Trans Gender’ controversy. ‘It’s a boy!’, and ‘It’s a girl!’ are exclamations of an unchangeable truth.

    Anyone who believes that a man has become a woman on the basis of his own say-so, is making an error of judgement, to put it mildly.

    In an independent Scotland, such follies as these must be ironed out. If this is not to be done under the present incumbents, then the current MSPS responsible, will be changed in favour of people who believe in the Law according to the truth, and not according to someone’s say-so, as is the case in both the trans-gender world and the world of the SFA and TRFC 2012 Ltd.

    Milk, Sir?

  271. Doug says:

    British nationalist media getting even more British nationalist.

    They’re desperate to get all of us in Scotland to bow down before the butcher’s apron.

  272. Famous15 says:

    Urban Dictionary. “Telling a Carmichael” means telling lies.

    EG “Alec Cole-Hamilton telling story about SNP youth members looking at three high flats in Lerwick and saying let’s make up the canvas return” There are no high flats in Lerwick.

    Alex Cole-Hamilton told a whopping Carmichael.

  273. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Robert Peffers @ 13:08,

    Oh dear, all this heavy-duty repetitious botheration, just from a perfectly civil general inquiry that you can’t leave be, despite all the bother you claim you are having to avoid! Methinks it would have been easier for you to have kept your wheesh and spared yourself all this quite unnecessary spiteful huffing and puffing. (One can only wonder from what sort of mind all this spleen stems.)

    You can be such an ungracious and gratuitously nasty piece of work that you just can’t resist advertising it. So bad for you. Go on, be my guest, shame yourself as much as you like, it’s your reputation you’re trashing, not mine.

    It’s just a pity though that this entirely unnecessary and persistent unpleasantness – that many have at various times commented upon – can reflect badly on this community in particular and on the wider independence movement in general. (As much as anyone pays attention to your hoary old ramblings, anyway.)

    Thankfully you are entirely unrepresentative of the independence movement, both in respect of open and friendly communitarian spirit and also creative thinking.

  274. Welsh Sion says:

    Famous15 @ 3.22pm

    As meat, mince and pork(y) pies seem to flavour of the month with regard to politicians de nos jours, I refer you to my parable of “Carmichael’s the Butchers” … 🙂

  275. Dorothy Devine says:

    Mr Sutherland , have a look in the mirror.

  276. Maolbeatha says:

    Reading the comments are always interesting, the differing views, the questions asked and answers given can give insights into the position of the person posting. They can also be misinterpreted easily enough.

    I have learned a lot over the years reading on here.

    Someone asking an awkward question is a good thing isn’t it?

    Can we answer the question with verifiable facts, with sources? as this site does Or with what we have read or heard that backs up our position?, as the media this site shows up does.

    The position of the SNP in not giving clear answers as to when we will begin Indy 2, has been made clear I believe by NS saying something along the lines of “when the effects of Brexit become clear”seems clear enough, but not good enough for those of us concerned about missing what appears to be a golden opportunity.

    As an example
    There was a post earlier from Joe I think who was unhappy with the “leftist” stance. His tone came across as strongly held views with frustration about the stance of the SNP with regards the economy and social policies.
    I am unclear as to which policies exactly Joe finds so objectionable and perhaps he has a point?
    Nobody asked, he never said.
    Then there was a lot of back and fore insulting between various posters. I stopped reading there.

    But the point is this, this isn’t isolated to Joe’s post, if a poster has a strongly held issue with or about a policy, stance or idea why not look into it?
    Is their understanding of the issue, right or wrong?
    Where are the sources of the information on both sides?
    Is this objection factual or emotional?

    If someone doesn’t understand then explain it to them, so they do understand. Provide evidence and sources so that they can check it.

    The wee blue book anyone?

    We might not like what we learn but it if it is factual and verifiable we have learned something new and are better prepared because of it.

    What does an observer learn from seeing a slagging match on here? What might they actually learn from a reasoned factual debate?
    The website is founded on that isn’t it?

    Maybe the best response to a post you find difficult would be along the lines of “Can you point me in the direction of the source of that information please?”
    Is the source trustworthy? and by that I do not mean does it agree with your position, is the information peer reviewed or at least verified by other sources with no proven bias?

    Stick to the facts, prove it. Play the ball not the man, etc etc

    Anyway just a thought brought about by the comments in this post.

  277. Sarah says:

    @Welsh Sion: “when is a leak…” – excellent point. “Yes Minister” was frighteningly accurate. At the time it seemed just funny but now I get a cold feeling in my stomach at how the system can get taken over by the wrong sort of people.

  278. mike cassidy says:


    Don’t concern yourself with Joe.

    He’s just a troll

    Whose ‘persona’ is that of a pre-political correctness neanderthal worried about how liberal the SNP might be in an independent Scotland.

  279. mike cassidy says:


    The World’s Most Beautiful Railway

    That’s Scotland’s railway that is.

    More4 9.00 tonight.

    And it might be worth watching because

    fingers crossed

    I don’t think they felt the need to have it fronted by a personality.

  280. Cubby says:

    Robert J Sutherland@3.34pm

    Pot calling the kettle black.

  281. Welsh Sion says:

    Sarah @4.10 pm

    Ah, yes. Being a Taff, I know a lot about leaks/leeks! 😉

    (See also, Welsh: ‘daffodil’ = Peter’s leek)

  282. Thepnr says:


    Your post was interesting but your use of “Joe” as an example of your argument as someone who might be moved by the provision of links to facts seems a bit misguided.

    “Joe” doesn’t post on Wings seeking answers to questions since he doesn’t generally ask any. He likes to shout his opinion loudly to anyone that will listen and loves to berate those that do reply to his musings. If you could call his racist, right wing and anti EU diatribes musings LOL.

    Here’s a reminder of what “Joe” has to offer all from this thread.

    Joe says:
    24 August, 2019 at 8:53 pm

    Being a small resource rich nation is like being a beautiful young caucasian woman in a Malmö suburb alone at night.

    Joe says:
    25 August, 2019 at 8:19 am

    I dont want to say this but its the truth for me – on voting for independence I fear that the hyper progressive Scottish people will crawl further up their own arses and basically turn the place into an intolerable leftist shithole.

    Joe says:
    25 August, 2019 at 12:54 pm

    @Robert Peffers

    Sorry Rob, but you are either gloriously thick or are downright dishonest…

    I simply do NOT trust anyone who thinks that Scottish independence automatically should mean EU membership. Especially those snakes who wish to distort the failings of the EU and the growing problems

    For those who do – get an education, get some knowledge and step outside of the ridiculous bubble of ‘EU good, UK bad’. Its much more fucking complicated than that.

    So what kind are you? Given the obvious lies you spout about the EU I can put a word to it.

    You are no Scottish nationalist by any stretch of the imagination. You are an European nationalist and a liar. So at least we have assessed of which ‘kind’ we are.

  283. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Maolbeatha @ 16:08,

    I appreciate those thoughtful comments. Besides the extremely few obvious mischief-makers like “Joe”, even finding out the facts, it seems, is sometimes harder than you would expect, when a very few at least seem more intent on attention-seeking and faction-building than in actually genuinely helping.

  284. kapelmeister says:

    Setback for the Lib Dems in Shetland by-election.

    Alex Cole-Hamilton has arrived to campaign.

  285. Sandy says:

    Was Joe thrown out of mainland Europe?

  286. Sandy says:

    Bob Peffers calls a spade a spade. Mr Sutherland, what do you call it?

  287. Giving Goose says:

    Inverness rail station.
    Pathetic attempt at hiding the National paper in the shop.
    Maybe it was AJC on his way north.
    Think of the mindset for a moment.
    “I hate Scotland so much that I’ll hide a publication with nice things to say about Scotland” sad, but I sorted it 🙂

  288. Terry callachan says:

    To Maolbeatha..4.08pm

    I agree
    I’ve been caught out doing these things myself
    tit for tat and all that
    Easy to fall into it because it’s all so emotive

    I think I’m ok now haha

  289. Terry callachan says:

    Robert J Sutherland …3.34..

    My favourite is

    “ the UK is only two nations Scotland and England”

    But but but that might be correct but there again Wikipedia which is held worldwide as an authority actually says

    The United Kingdom consists of four constituent countries: England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland.[21. “

    Sure people disagree and have different opinions , some are even supported by facts but saying the same thing over and over and over again and being rude to people about this one point all the time is just daft.

  290. Dr Jim says:

    @Giving Goose 5:05pm

    They hide them under the Mail and Express because they think we won’t touch them for fear of bursting into flames

  291. twathater says:

    RJS keep on keeping on , Maolbeatha just another day at the coalface but don’t be disheartened our goal is INDEPENDENCE FOR SCOTLAND no matter who gripes at who

  292. twathater says:

    Breeks and Lochside with you 100% , sovereignty front and centre loudly proclaimed REPEATEDLY , the troops do it constantly why not Nicola and the SNP SG

  293. Thepnr says:

    Unsurprising ignorance from Trump on display at Biarritz.

    In a curious aside, Trump also claimed that he had asked Johnson about the use of the term “United Kingdom” rather than “England” — one of the U.K.’s four constituent nations.

    “I ask Boris, where is England, what’s happening with England? They don’t use it very much anymore. We talked about it, it was interesting,” Trump said, adding that the U.K. is a “great place.”

  294. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Dorothy Devine @ 15:56,
    Cubby (aka Whiny Fanboy) @ 16:34,
    Sandy @ 17:00,

    Look back at the original response, which was gratuitously unpleasant to a civil request for info. What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, so either honestly recognise it for what it was and fairly disapprove of all, or just continue to wallow in obvious partiality and keep proving me right that way.

    Your call, makes no difference whatever to me.


  295. kapelmeister says:

    Overheard a conversation of some senior Lib Dems yesterday. Talking about “blocks of flats”.

    Wait. Now I recall. They were talking about “lots of fracks”.

  296. Shug says:

    Brown says the scottish parliament has failed!!!!
    Sou da like he will be leading the charge to end the scottish parliament
    Right enough not much point in it if it cant be controlled by him

  297. Cubby says:

    Robert J Sutherland@6.08pm

    Pot calling the kettle black.

    I used to think you were an intelligent person. Sadly I now tthink you are just just a specialist in childish remarks. You really cannot take any criticism or anyone proving you wrong – can you Mr Sutherland.

    Too many hypocrites posting on Wings.

  298. Famous15 says:

    Time for Wings to start blocking the weans!

  299. Famous15 says:

    How do you delete a post? I think I might be flamed.

  300. robertknight says:

    Take it outside people…

  301. call me dave says:

    Jings! Like herding cats.

    Mind you nothing much happening…. 🙁

  302. PictAtRandom says:

    Cubby says:
    26 August, 2019 at 6:46 pm

    Robert J Sutherland@6.08pm

    Pot calling the kettle black.

    I used to think you were an intelligent person. Sadly I now tthink you are just just a specialist in childish remarks. You really cannot take any criticism or anyone proving you wrong – can you Mr Sutherland.

    Too many hypocrites posting on Wings

    So there we have it. Mr Fight Club wades in to the EU Nuncio-in-Chief. And it can’t be long before a certain uncivil servant who was happy to take the shilling for 50 years wades in with a thin strand of legal pedantry that passes for historical understanding.

    For those real nationalists who are still hanging on here I’d advise them to get organised in their localities rather than use a sub-Fleecebook echo chamber.

    Thig ar latha.

  303. Ealasaid says:

    In-D-Car Gordon Ross 26.8.19 pt1 – Section thirty orders, what are they good for?

  304. Ealasaid says:

    In-D-Car Gordon Ross 26.8.19 pt2 – SECTION 30 UPDATE

  305. galamcennalath says:

    Gordon Brown having one his federal wet farts again.

    Remember when Labour last stood up for Scotland against the Tories? No? Me neither.

    As someone said elsewhere … where now Brown Vow?

  306. Colin Alexander says:

    @ Dave McEwan Hill

    I read your comment in the National.

    You wrote: “As the Labour party, David Mundell and the Electoral Commission are now indicating it is the correct position”. (Regarding the SNP indyref policy)

    To avoid argument, let’s assume you’re right that Mr Mundell and Labour and Electoral Commission are saying indyref is the right way to go.

    I would suggest all they have done is re-assert the British Empire’s position that Scotland can only have self-determination by indyref if the UK State decides it can, and when it can, and what question/s can be asked.

    In other words, they have re-affirmed Scotland and her people, to them, are colonial possessions of the British Empire.

    I await with interest to find out how the SNP deals with such contempt for Scotland’s sovereign and democratic rights.

  307. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Cubby @ 18:46,

    I have heretofore been discreet enough, despite your incessant silly provocations, not to have reminded you of your own history on here, including a spate of jokey faux restraint after previous nasty episodes of your own, so you are in no position to point the finger at anyone, Mr. Hypocritus Ketpottle.

    And where is all this positivity and interesting support for indy that was promised? Instead nothing but even more pathetic schoolboy whinery.

    If you are happy to “call a spade a spade”, fair enough, but just keep in mind that it works every which way.

  308. Ahundredthidiot says:

    Hot day isn’t it, folks…

  309. Welsh Sion says:

    Thepnr @ 6.04 pm

    Nor really news or relevant to us, but following on from your post.

    The Soviet Union ‘rebranding’ as Russia.

    Copyright, D. Trump, 2019
    All Rights Reserved

  310. Miked says:

    RJS 7.47PM . I lurk on this site from time to time and as a few other people have mentioned…that cubby has one nasty streak running through it.

  311. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    To divert from the wee argie-bargies caused by the hot climate in our locale…

    I found and downloaded this graphic from Facebook a couple of days ago, showing how Scotland is out in front in the global arms race, in terms of defence spending as a percentage of GDP.

  312. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Eh, we’re better together, iye?

  313. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Forgot to mention…

    Check out More4 9pm and 10pm, for progs about Scottish railways. Now!

  314. Gfaetheblock says:


    I am afraid that table is a lie send out by zoomer councillor Chris mcelney. Stewart McDonald MP had the good sense to call him out on it and the damage it does.

  315. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Gfaetheblock.

    Ach, weel…

    Onnyhoo the railway prog on More4 is fine…

  316. mike cassidy says:

    Second that about the railway programme..

    And I was right about it not being focused on a well-known personality.

    Just real people doing their thing.

  317. Liam says:

    mike cassidy said:

    And it might be worth watching because

    fingers crossed

    I don’t think they felt the need to have it fronted by a personality.

    Is that allowed?

  318. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @callmedave (7.01) –

    ‘herding cats’


    Aye, indeed.

    Fifteen comments since you posted that.

    15 comments in two and a half hours, and very little of substance there for anyone who happens to drop in for a shufty at the biggest and best indy-supporting site.

    Yet again, btl has turned into a fuckin bin fire because some selfish pricks just can’t help themselves.

    Tedious shite, and youse know who you are.

    FFS, just pack it in, eh?


  319. Phronesis says:

    Scotland has a choice. Predatory capitalism championed by an increasingly deranged Trump with a messiah complex and mini-me serial liar Boris Trump or social democracy and democratic capitalism in a thriving and Independent Scotland. It is not a difficult choice for this generation and for future generations.

    ‘So all there is left in America is extreme capitalism now. Few championed a more balanced, saner, healthier way of life, about a common good, about virtue, about a higher purpose. And in that way, America has become something like, ironically enough, a mirror image of its great enemy, the Soviet Union. It is a totalist society, run by and for one end — only a slightly different one: money…So American life is made mostly only of the values of predatory capitalism now — bruising competition, domination, greed, punishment, discipline, cunning, ruthlessness, egotism. We might call them malignantly narcissistic values…a purely capitalist society will never really learn how to be civilized. It’s institutions will all be “profit centers” — but none will evolve to be civilizing mechanisms, which teach people how to cooperate, respect one another, treat one another with dignity’

    ‘Social democracy serves a kind of double function for society, which Americans don’t really understand because they’ve never lived under social democracy, and can’t seem to quite imagine what such a life would feel and taste and smell like, beyond dry charts and statistics and analyses. That double function is that it lifts living standards, by making the necessities of modern life accessible to all, in the form of public goods — healthcare, media, finance, education, and so on. But the effect of those public goods is that social democracy becomes a society’s immune to the ills of capitalism. Ills which can proliferate and spread and metastasize, until they cause the body social to go into multiple organ failure (fascism), or break apart a society’s mind (authoritarianism.)… Because in America, the very same thing which in Europe are provided freely to all — healthcare, education, media, transport, retirement, childcare, and so on — are things which people must compete for. Because these things are life’s essentials — not luxuries, but necessities — the result is that the average American is forced to fight a bruising, bitter, endless battle. With whom? With everyone’

    ‘For a community to thrive and to do so long-term it will also be important to have good leadership. Those in positions of power and authority should care about the well-being of everyone in the community and of the community itself. The leaders should have the skill and understanding that is needed to lead the community well and should be of sufficient character and consistency that they can be relied upon to do what is right. They should be able to inspire others with their vision for the community’s well-being. Good community is thus constituted in part by proficient leadership’

  320. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    C’mon peeps.

    Tartanpigsy stepped up to the line in 2014. A quid each from 5% of all the Wings readers would get us more flags for the coming campaign.

  321. Dr Jim says:

    Surely puny wee rotten Scotland can’t afford 5G says the BBC 9 channel, is this going to be another one of those deals the taxpayer ends up paying for when it all goes wrong, they go on to say

    The 9 brings on two experts in the field and oddly for the BBC both experts say Yes Scotland CAN do it and not only that Scotland must do it and it’ll benefit the country by £17 billion a year when we do

    The experts then had to explain to the usual BBC Numpties that 5G isn’t just about yer phone because the BBC Numpties as usual hadn’t done one iota of research before they tried to rubbish the whole idea

    This is what passes for *journalism* in Scotland, Numpties who own a pencil

  322. John H. says:

    Totally O/T.
    There’s been some talk recently about institutions apologising and paying compensation for slavery. Does this mean that we can expect Westminster to pay compensation for the brutality that followed the 1745 uprising? Or maybe they could apologise for allowing the highland clearances, and a lot more besides.

    After independence I think we should send them a bill.

    Just seen on Twitter-How to run a small business in post Brexit Britain…start with a large one.

  323. Daisy Walker says:

    A wee distraction – of sorts – or a taste of things to come.

    Over on Netflix – Michael Moore has a new film out – called Fahrenheit 11/9 this time, unlike one of his previous ones called Fahrenheit 9/11.

    Of particular interest is what the ultra conservatives did to a town called Flint and its water supply, and just how lovely Trump really is.

  324. Colin Alexander says:

    I received a response from the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EQHRC) regarding my complaint about Scottish bank branches being closed because it’s an English bank holiday, which I told them I believe is indirectly discriminatory against Scottish people.

    They said they have passed it to their legal department for consideration.

    The EQHRC also informed me they were open today in Scotland; (it’s just my call went to an answering machine). So I am happy to publicly apologise and make a correction of my error (when I commented the EQHRC were also closed today).

  325. Cactus says:

    That would make us America’s Area 51… like “the testing ground”

    How’s them Hurricanes doin’, Donald?

    Donald Trump is not a politician, he will always be a businessman who appears to be on a continual power-trip, his body-language gives him away too easily, he also rides and thrives on his so-called and assumed celebrity status

    Boris the Johnson is trying to do the same thing as Donald Trump

    Politicians are trying to celebritise themselves

  326. Ghillie says:

    Cactus @ 7.17 am 🙂

  327. greta macdougal says:

    C U Next Tuesday, Boris!

    (Praying for a great result for Joanna Cherry’s High Court scenario)

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