Something to keep in mind
Posted on
January 15, 2018 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
…as the Scottish Government releases its Brexit impact paper.
(Panelbase, Scottish adults, fieldwork mid-December 2017)
Perhaps unsurprisingly, given their party’s complete and openly-admitted absence of any comprehensible position on the subject, Labour voters are the most confused.
As ever, if only the crappy MSM would publish the impact report with unbiased coverage and some blanket ‘tell everyone’ analysis.
Yeah, then re-poll … BOOM
Now, that is scary!
Hard Brexit = £2,300 worse off per person per year.
Soft Brexit = £1,600 worse off per person per year.
No Brexit = £0 worse off per person per year.
Not too difficult really.
Hard Brexit – Indyref2 asap – realistically 2019 or 2020. Nailed on Yes vote once we sort out the single market strategy.
Soft Brexit for UK or No Brexit for UK – Indyref2 in the mid 2020s on first principles?
That is a very substantial piece of work from the SG. Impressed
Mibbees aye Mibbees naw. How the Hell can people vote for something when in actual fact they are almost in complete ignorance of the consequences of that action ? Give me strength.
That is absolutely shocking! 67% admit to not understanding what Brexit entails.
And that’s Scotland, with I would have hoped, a more politically engaged population.
What it means to me is that the campaign for smoke and mirrors by both WM and MSM has worked! If most folks don’t understand what’s going on then it gives greater latitude to the Tories to do whatever they want.
Leave means … whatever … with minimal public input.
Get out of the toxic european union, then out of the toxic UK union, ahhhh, would’nt live be just wonderful when that happens.
There will allways be trade with other countries, that’s how it all works, you buy from us and we buy from you, business never stops, and none of these political unions when they are gone will be missed
As comments above point out will this assessment be allowed to be viewed without being butchered by our Scottish media .
The Scottish government have done the work the tory government have failed to do even after its strenuous efforts to have the public believe they were on top of everything ,
As was evident when a leave vote dropped on their doorstep much to their surprise , it became clear they have no plan , just as the farting about with artical 50 reduced to very short time available to interact and actually engage with the EU .
Its becoming clear this Tory lot are walking , all thats needed is the groundwork to prepare the mugs for what they really intended in the first place .
The impact assessment is that has a serious repercussions for Scotland still has not broke surface on BBC news and its now 20 minutes into their midday bulletin , good to see we are valued in this union .
The analysis that you liked to is the first that I’ve seen* in a form that’s easy to read and to understand.
*I don’t trust anything in the MSM unless I’ve also read it elsewhere.
Whatever Brexit is, right now or in a UKOK decade’s time, its all going to be a great British tory triumph and an SNP disaster.
Its already costing a fortune, 250g block Morrisons own brand butter was 85p on their great Brexit independence for teamGB referendum day. Now its £1.60.
David Caledonia back on full fandang mode i see.
The mandate is based on Scotland being dragged out the EU against our will.
Remain 62% David, or does that not compute with you?
………
Great bit of SG analysis, and difficult to try rubbish, when the WM tory gov admit to have ZERO impact studies done (even if we know they have, but they make terrible reading).
Andrew Marr was schooled completely by Nicola, a masterclass of an interview, got all the major points across and refused to be talked over.
Superb last few days for indy cause.
Terrible times for David “pretendy indy” Caledonia, Coco and co.
“Proud Cybernat says:
15 January, 2018 at 12:10 pm
Hard Brexit = £2,300 worse off per person per year.
Soft Brexit = £1,600 worse off per person per year.
No Brexit = £0 worse off per person per year.
Not too difficult really.”
That’s “Soft Brexit” as in a Canada Deal (-£1610).
And I wonder if the third option should really be “New Bremain” with its own costs, rather than “No Brexit”. (If everyone agrees to rewind Article 50.) You can’t step into the same river twice.
You will have had yer News then
The BBC spent all of 3 minutes on this assessment 12.27 till 12.30 half the time was spent on explaining why it wasnt delivered from Bute House , this was because of repairs .
Well arent we served well by the national broadcaster , relegated to 8 or 9 in the running order behind more important and pressing matters .
Something to keep in mind. Never overestimate the intelligence of voters.
When down south recently I spoke to several folk about Brexit and 90% of them voted to Leave and all of them it was because of immigration.
This included well traveled folk with good jobs and the amount of British Nationalism is on the increase that’s why we are getting more Great British TV programmes, more Union Jacks on produce and for the next four months many more puffs for the Royals.
It begs the question how the UK vote would have gone had this paper (or a UK Gov form of it) been published before the 2016 EU Ref.
But we are where we are. No doubt, come IndyRef2, the whingers will claim “Ah don’t know whit tae dae – there’s too much information.” and “Ah don’t know whit tae dae – there’s no’ enough information.”
Wallopers.
Given the state of misinformation presented to the public in the original campaign and the woeful reportage of the Scottish meeja since? (They’ve been busy elsewhere. Well, completely AWOL actually.) No. No, I can’t say I’m surprised.
Shocked? Yes. Surprised? No.
O/T;
Links on last thread.
Thx Smallaxe – glad to see you posting again and with a nice bunch of links too.
Ouch. The ScotGov paper doesn’t explain the terms either, nor does it even use the term “soft Brexit”, though it does “hard Brexit” without defining it. (that was a quick scan).
Its all about tory spin, for the rest of our UKOK lives really.
link to bbc.co.uk
Where did it go wrong for Carillion?
By Daniel Thomas
Business reporter
2 hours ago
Ask the big questions, just you know, don’t actually answer them. There’s no raw cunning like beeb gimp tory propaganda.
O/T but worth mentioning
Picked up a bag of Perthshire spuds in my local Co-op, as I needed them now. They came decorated with a half a Union flag and I raised the matter with the checkout girl.
She immediately regaled me with her thoughts on the matter which yoon readers will not want to hear. A woman behind me also joined in.
Perhaps this Union Jackery nonsense is reaping the opposite effect than intended. Should we be encouraging it, I expect every member of staff in that shop will be likewise minded.
@Proud Cybernat
That’s a good part of the simple definition we need!
Robert Graham says:
That’s the way I have always seen it. They have set out so many red lines, they are a long way from a soft single market outcome. And I don’t for a minute believe they want one.
I’m not sure whether they themselves believe all this cherry picking Canada-plus-plus nonsense. They are daft enough to believe it, but I think it’s their phase two negotiating position which they probably know is unacceptable to the EU.
Nicola is right IMO to pursue the course she has, the genuine voice of common sense and compromise. However, I think her position is a million miles from the Tory one!
People are confused and misinformed by the media. This should really be on the previous thread:
link to tinyurl.com
Look at the effort Andrew Neil put into pretending Norway is a Sh****le country.
The BBC in Scotland as usual immediately starting to rubbish this assessment.
Quote from their reporter ” of course this is just a projection ‘ .
When projections are presented from a Unionist point of view , they are presented as fact , unquestionable, nailed on ,totally guaranteed , every think tanks dire predictions if Scotland was independent is always presented as fact .
Oh we have moved up to 3 in the running order now , England seems to be concerned with the collapse of Carillion , a whole countries future relegated behind more important matters .
Geeo
We all vote for the SNP, but i cannot remember a vote by the scottish government wether we should stay in or get out, maybe i missed that vote !, it was in fact a UK wide vote not a scottish one, or do you think every time we vote for the SNP it means we allow them to do as they want, and not as we demand of them
Having a vote on a european referendum does not mean that scottish voters want to stay in europe, it just means we vote allways for the SNP side of things, i hope you understand the difference between scottish voters and the rest of the UK
Just in case anyone here is struggling understand the range of options, this is excellent ….
link to brexitoptions.co.uk
And EU proposed, based on UK red lines ….
link to brexitoptions.co.uk
And btw Geeo, when we get our independence we will be out of europe anyway, cause we would be a new country that needs to apply to get in
I must have missed something. As far as I am aware (whether it was UK wide or not), the people of Scotland chose by 62% ,of those who voted to remain in the EU. What did I miss, or is this just another changing of the goalposts?
Scary stats for Scotland! What swayed the 62%, was it FoM? Just common sense of being partners in a bigger bloc?
Yesterday was an eye opener on Corbyn, a craven liar with no compunction. All day, Labour supporters, and obvious trolls, supported his twisting of semantics and lies.
The Corbynistas are impervious to fact, but also quite a lot in south, sickened by his obvious spinning.
I don’t know if he’s a hardened Marxist, scared of ‘markets’ or perhaps driven by Trade Unions. He was nothing short of outrageous.
It’s therefore even more relevant that Scotgov release their Brexit report today, and expose this diddy, who is happy to enable Tory destruction.
Capella,
You’re most welcome, my friend.
🙂
As for IndyRef2, we have a Scottish Parliament and Government mandated to respond to a material change with an independence referendum.
And, the Unionists fought the recent General Election on a NO-IndyRef ticket and lost convincingly.
All we need now if for the Tories to clarify that they intend to inflict a hard Brexit on Scotland.
I do wish Unionists would stop pretending they don’t understand crystal clear consequences from actions.
@ David Caledonia
What are you on? It suits you to call it a UK vote, so well done on doing Farage’s work for him.
Are you Murdo?
Dont pick and choose how my vote counts. It was counted as Scotland remaining in the EU. 62% voted like that.
Or are we NOT a country?
London’s Lord Mayor has arrived in Scotland to tell the Jocks that despite our votes against Brexit we are all leaving the EU together. Time this Panto relic was told to fuck-off! “Oh yes he should!”
While electorally the Scottish Government’s campaign may bear fruit the warnings are having a significant effect on people’s attitudes to commit to various transactions from house purchase to holiday bookings.
I don’t know what effect this is having on our EU friends in mainland Europe but from a cursory look at their media and politicians’ comments they are playing down any adverse effect. I can see why but unless certain EU based industries who are dependent on trade with the UK have been told they will be supported then many in the EU will suffer badly too but maybe not quite so badly.
I think the Scottish government needs to take the EU leadership to task too, rather than be prophets of doom, because trying to get a vote in a second Independence Referendum when folk are down and nervous about what they own is much harder.
That is why the Scottish government needs to be resolute and act as if we are already independent and use the powers it has to take control over our public service funding. It can do that now and give the comfort to people that being in control we can choose from a point of strength whether our future is in the EU, the UK or on our own
The current fiscal arrangements under devolution offer a real opportunity to cease control which was clearly not envisaged by either the Scottish or UK sides.
David Caledonia, 77th brigade fud on duty. Fooling nobody with his yoon pish
The media told some people to stay in the EU you had to vote no.
I bet they now wish they had voted YES to stay in the EU.
People now realise the fibs we are told by the Scottish media.
Vote YES next time.
Can anyone seriously doubt that the EU would be incredibly keen to have iScotland as a full member?
I’ll stick my neck out and suggest iScotland will be the richest country to ever join an existing European block. Our GDP is higher than the UK’s.
We are the Jewel in the Crown of the UK. London and SE England may be richer, but it’s based on the ‘vapour’ of financial services. Scotland’s wealth is based on solid resources. We have a vast area of continental shelf and huge renewables potential.
The EU will make full member ultra smooth and swift. Why would contemplate anything else?
Whether you are pro EU, or believe Scotland shouldn’t be a full member is quite a different argument.
One thing you need to take into account. It’s possible for folk to say they understand something when they really don’t. Either they are being dishonest (because they don’t want to admit they don’t) or their lack of understanding is such that they don’t realise that they don’t understand the thing. The only part of the data you can be pretty sure of is the “don’t understand at all” bit as folk generally don’t admit to ignorance so if they do they are probably telling the truth.
Jackson the car man being allowed time on the BBC to rubbish this assessment , instead of actually commenting on the assessment he decides to say the SNP should be engaging with the Westminster government instead of standing outside throwing stones.
Ha Ha taking the piss doesn’t come close , bloody brass neck , from a clown whose party represents 20% of Scottish voters .
This idiots government in Westminster has previously said it had conducted assessments of every industry and service likely to be impacted by leaving the EU , surprise surprise it turns out they were talking total Pish , now that’s a first ,a Tory telling lies who would have believed that now .
The London Mayor supports full EU membership. So does London S/E.
The London Mayor is coming to Scotland for support. Not an elected Labour MP.
Unfortunately he is also Labour which it appears wants Brexit
Anti Corbyn
Confused you might be.
Has our vote kept us in the european union, our vote does not matter one way or the other, to say scotland voted to stay in the european union is simply denying the reality of the situation
It was a UK vote, not a scottish vote , if anyone cannot come to terms with that simple fact, then all i can say is…. get used to it, cause i have, its called facing up to reality
I vote for the SNP in every general election, i have never had an SNP government sit at westminster, or do some people actually think that its a possibility in the future, Reality !
I don’t believe Labour voters are going to unconfused any time soon about the impact of Brexit.
As Labour MPs are angry with Jeremy Corbyn’s ‘Incorrect’ Claim About Quitting Single Market after Brexit.
Huffington post
OFFS!
The Herald aping the Mail, yet we’re asked to stop criticising the media.
… and the horse they rode in on.
You can fill in the first part of that suggestion for yourselves.
I detest the BBC these days. Lunchtime news has just whined that the Scottish Government’s Brexit assessment is “of course” a political stunt, and doesn’t make any allowances for the UK being able to secure a better deal than currently looks likely. (Isn’t that kinda the whole point???).
No mention of the UK’s calamitous and flagrant dishonesty of David Davis in willfully misrepresenting his own neglect to prepare its own Brexit assessments, by the UK government which as I recall, went out of their way to expressly ignore the Scottish Governments attempts to find common ground.
News? Don’t make me laugh. Watching the BBC in Scotland is like depending on Radio Goebbels for news updates of WW2.
Near forgot.
link to twitter.com
the wasp
yep looks like the fully trained house jock
after all this time you would have thought these clowns would change their tactics , oh here comes rock and the other one
Good to see the Scottish government coming out with figures for the future thereby going some way to educate the populace. I hope the ScotGov, and we, keep reiterating such figures. The populace sometimes need to be telt the same information more than once for it all to sink in.
I still think it’s going to be a hard brexit.
Now all we need to hear is the ScotGov guaranteeing a EU referendum in the first parliamentary term of an independent Scotland and we’re home and dry.
TheWasp
I have voted only SNP for well over 40 years, never heard of the
77th Brigade, whatever that is, i still say the rev should have a block button here, you can say what they like, as long as its done with good manners and respect its ok with me, but we should be able to comment without being abused by people like you
Impact report effectively rubbished on BBC lunchtime news, Unionistthe noo did his duty. If I haden’t known better I would have left this bulletin believing this was pretty much a SNP document.
I voted to get out of the E.U. Because I want Scotland to be independent and free from any others having,a say in our affairs we have had over 300years of that I don’t want to swap one master for 27 other masters I remember during Ref., 1 the EU leaders lining up to talk. Down Scotland’s bid for freedom and backing up all the threats from Westminster not only them but a good lot of world leaders to for example Obama a black man telling us we were better to remain slaves than to seek our freedom we don’t need or want people like that we will thrive on our own I have no doubt of that
Why do people have trouble understanding the EU. It costs nothing brings benefits. Formed to stop famine and war in Europe. It has been absolutely successful. Has beneficial governance of 10% of members power. It benefits every members trade etc. It is a power for good. For prosperity and success. If members follow the rules of engagement. Saves members £Billions in trade etc. Good governance. Most of the EU countries are wonderful successful countries. Even the smaller ones.
It is the UK/US who break International Law and chaos havoc.
The reason the Tories want out of the EU is so they can tax evade. The EU are clamping down on tax evasion.
Just imagine all the things we’ll be able to do in iScotland!
Big things, like always elect government in Scotland for Scotland. And invest in and safeguard the SNHS. And not possess WMDs. And avoid involvement in illegal wars.
Plus all those little things other Western countries take for granted, like tuning into the TV or radio news report and get more than your-country-is-shite and crime. Or view weather reports on a representative map. Or watch your national sports teams’ matches on TV. Or buy a newspaper which contains news.
A bit of confusion between the Mayor of London & the Lord Mayor of London, the latter disregards the Scottish vote & reminds us that we are a United Kingdom & will be leaving the EU. He should be told to fuck-off from whence he came! “Oh yes he should!”
Brexit is bad, mky. The EU may have been contaminated by neo-liberalism but Brexit has come about as a result of right-wing populism. It is the New Right who promoted Brexit, with the aim of securing further Thatcherite re-structuring of the economy, specifically the increasing erosion of workers’ rights and wider social conditions. There might have been some justification if the public sector was not already stretched to breaking point, but the New Right don’t care about social justice and human rights. They seek the return of 18th century economics and social mobility.
link to ijbssnet.com
link to ec.europa.eu.
link to eur-lex.europa.eu
“Oh no he”…..”ah, ok”. 😉
Breeks says:
15 January, 2018 at 2:02 pm
I detest the BBC these days. Lunchtime news has just whined that the Scottish Government’s Brexit assessment is “of course” a political stunt, and doesn’t make any allowances for the UK being able to secure a better deal than currently looks likely. (Isn’t that kinda the whole point???).
Jeez. That is so bad on so many levels. If they’re criticising the SG analysis, are they comparing it to the “detailed, sectoral analyses” done by Maggie May’s Merry Men?
Oops, sorry – forgot. Eighteen months and counting after the Brexit referendum, and the Tories haven’t so much as put pen to the back of a fag packet to estimate the impact.
Meanwhile, their cheerleaders in the BBC and MSM have held them to account for their inaction. Oops, sorry – forgot. The BBC and MSM don’t do holding Westminster to account for anything that affects Scotland.
@Fred 2:39pm
Right said Fred. I mean Fred was right in what he said.
Eh Scotland in Union operating here today ?
Just asking because of some pretty dubious comments have appeared .
@David Caledonia
I was living in New Zealand when the UK entered the EEC and slammed the doors shut on the majority of NZ’s exports. NZ had to find new markets and rejig its economy.
It managed it and private industry but it had to borrow and invest an awful lot of money to do it. During that time the humble Chinese Gooseberry was rebranded as the Kiwifruit and a de novo industry was born. Not just a new export fruit but all the agritech to other countries so they could grow them and ensure the Rich North had enough of them all the year round.
But I don’t detect the dynamism in Scotland which pervaded NZ during that time and the Scottish govt doesn’t have a fraction of the powers the NZ parliament has, or it’s own currency and reserve bank and NZ has a landmass slightly larger than the whole of the British Isles to exploit. Even if 1/3 of that is National Park or other Reserve.
So, how is Devolved Scotland to weather the Brexit storm without those advantages? Note unlike the English Enterprise boards Scottish Enterprise has to pay to rent space in British Embassies to showcase Scottish exports and seek UK govt permission to go on trade missions which is often denied. Remember Holyrood has no foreign affairs powers and cannot enter into trade deals.
So after Brexit if you think Scottish export needs will be taken into account by Westminster when negotiating trade deals I have a bridge I would like to sell you.
David Caledonia
I think you are conused dear boy – this is Wings Over Scotland, not The Scotsman. You are clearly posting on the wrong forum.
Jings crivvens help ma Boab – just noticed I didn’t give an f in the fifth word of my post to DC.
Interestingly Lord Ashcroft has published an article today with the views of three focus groups, all in the South of course that he recently interviewed.
It would seem from some of the quotes that those in England are just as ignorant or even more so than those living in Scotland.
…Only a scattering of the other headlines that had absorbed the political world in preceding months were recalled, sometimes hazily. “Priti Patel was arranging meetings she shouldn’t have been. Was it in Iran?” “That guy’s laptop got done for porn. It were dead seedy, that. I can’t remember his name but he’s got a wife;”
…As for how the negotiations were going, most participants declared themselves “none the wiser”. A few recalled that something had been agreed about money, citizens’ rights and the Irish border, though the finer points largely escaped them: “Is it that if you’ve been here three or five years you can stay?”
…For many, though, the story had just become “background noise. You kind of zone out of it. It’s been going on for nearly two years.” Or, more forthrightly: “I’m bored with it. I’m bored to the back teeth so I switch off. You’ve just got to hope they know what they’re doing.”
…Apart from Brexit, “all I’ve heard recently is that the NHS is on its arse, the police service is on its arse, and the exchange rate when you go on holiday is on its arse too.”
link to archive.is
Dan Huil says:
15 January, 2018 at 2:10 pm
“Now all we need to hear is the ScotGov guaranteeing a EU referendum in the first parliamentary term of an independent Scotland and we’re home and dry.”
Don’t often disagree with you Dan, but I do about about that.
I would spare Scotland’s it’s very own “Brexit” minefield, – where, like Brexit, the population was urged to vote on a matter of monumental economic significance but having absolutely nothing to inform them about their decision beyond petulant xenophobic rhetoric, and decades of anti-European propaganda, – and virtually no favourable promotion of Europe to redress the balance.
If it was my decision, I would kick a Scottish only EU referendum into the long grass, and instead propose a constructive and objective review of our place in Europe based upon informed debate, constructive interaction, and factual information.
Let us spend the first five or ten years as an Independent Nation IN the EU, for the safe harbour of economic stability that it would afford us, and downplay the necessity for holding such a divisive debate about the merits of EU membership until we have had the chance to undo the damage and artificial prejudices which the BBC and UK media has instilled in us.
Let us experience life as a “free” and sovereign nation enjoying the protection of the EU’s umbrella, and know first hand whether the EU jacket fits us or doesn’t.
So I would say No to a quick EU referendum after Indy, but a hearty YES to a period of constructive re-evaluation of what being in Europe actually means.
ot
Hamish100 says:
15 January, 2018 at 10:45 am
Funny how the Daily Heil readers (free copy) complain about democracy being flouted by it’s supposed removal from trains and buses. The fact there was no alternative paper (with different thought processes) was neither here or there. Total Hypocrites.
Personally I think public sponsored/ supported services such as rail or bus should not have one political viewpoint pushed our way. Let there be light. Lets have the National and one unionist paper on the buses. How fair is that? The Unionists will say no of course.
How about SPTE, Scotrail, McGills etc. Stop promoting one political viewpoint or lose the public money.
Lets have a government news sheet on public transport
Nicola Sturgeon has put together a quick summary of the Brexit Analysis paper,
link to tinyurl.com
the full paper,
link to tinyurl.com
The isolationists are back, the I want Independence but I won’t vote for it If I don’t get my blackmailing way by proposing it’s the same type of mental isolationism the English want
I’m strangely torn as to whom I don’t understand more The English Brexiter attitude or the Scottish Nationalist Brexiter both sets of people who don’t seem to want to interact on a personal basis with anybody who’s not them
Do these folk not realise that the dream of Gene Rodenberry
to have a world council one day where all the Independent countries of the world would work together for global peace and prosperity was once the most lauded ambition and idea put forward by anyone and America championed Star Trek as a beacon to the world as to how things should be, and not only America, the worlds greatest thinkers like Steven Hawking for example
The EU isn’t perfect, what ever is, the point is it’s the right thing to do
The UK of England voted to leave something that’s attempting to build something and that tells you something else about the UK, if they can’t control a thing they want to destroy a thing, or given Englands past record, partition it to their own advantage
For me a big part of Independence for Scotland is the ability to choose, the UK doesn’t allow that but post Independence for Scotland England may be on the road to learning a valuable lesson and one day think again about it’s dislike for a changing world and ditch the King Canute mentality they’ve been shovel fed by the I don’t like everything and I want to turn back time loonies
Until someone invents a time machine to turn the world back holding up yer shaking fist and saying NAW just isn’t going to work
On a personal note for the Neaderthals, try to make friends with someone who owns a book, it’ll help start you off at least
Just thought I would throw this bad news for Scotland in the mix.
Hundreds of jobs are set to be created during the construction of a vessel which will be used to redevelop a North Sea oil and gas field.
Shell said between 300 and 400 jobs, mostly in Scotland, would be needed to support construction of the floating production, storage and offloading (FPSO) vessel for the Penguins field.
Tories and Lab will not like this.
Obviously we will be out of the EU on independence day, not least because the vote is likely to be well after March 2019. And because as successive Commission presidents, the Commission itself and the text of the Lisbon Treaty say, the only way to be a member is to be a state, and join via the normal A49 process.
Yes of course the EU would welcome a membership application from Scotland. Yes it would be easy as we are aligned, but No it wouldn’t be swift. A lot swifter than waiting for the UK to rejoin the EU mind you.
Does that matter? No it does not.
All the benefits of the EU are, as the Scottish Government correctly observes, in the single market and customs union. And we have several ways to maintain, or at least very quickly recover those benefits.
Request an extension to any UK EEA-equivalent transition period from December 2020 to cover the 4-6 years it will take us to become independent and go through the EU accession process
Or
Request an extension to any UK EEA-equivalent transition period, but just for the time from December 2020 for the shorter period use the EFTA-EEA route to get back in the single market ASAP after independence. And decide on whether to rejoin the EU or not at our leisure
Personally think the latter route is the best way to actually win a Yes vote and hence be in the single market at all, but appreciate others don’t yet agree.
ALL those options are infinitely less risky than a UK hard Brexit which will impoverish us for generations, and not just financially.
Carillion being questioned on Parliament TV
Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee,
link to tinyurl.com
CameronB Brodie says:
Exactly. That has is what it has always been about.
Response today from the North British branch of the Tories to the SG impact assessments, contains …
“No-one’s doubting that Brexit will pose challenges, but it will bring opportunities too.”
… and what are these opportunities of which they speak? And for whom?
Presumably they have moved on from the NHS bonus on the side of the infamous bus!
It seems a long time since any Brexiteer has been specific about benefits the ordinary person might reasonably expect. The obvious assumption is, there are none.
For whom does the Brexit cash register tinkle? We need to push this line for IndyRef2. Make Scots aware, even if the South British stay in blissful ignorance until it’s too late for them.
There is one or more persons on here, commenting through pure dead ignorance. Even though claiming to vote SNP, he/she doesn’t know that the manifesto presented to voters in April 2016, for which she/he claimed to vote, contained,
“Scotland’s future
We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.”
link to snp.org
Ignorance can be the only excuse for typing,
“We all vote for the SNP, but i cannot remember a vote by the scottish government wether we should stay in or get out,”
He/she just doesn’t get that it is the electorate who had the vote, not the government. The Scottish PARLIAMENT, voted to hold indyref2, at the appropriate time, as the SNP had it in their manifesto and the SNP is the biggest party in the parliament.
Please, keep the Jackie Bailie to a minimum.
Oh, also,
link to en.wikipedia.org
@Breeks 3:16pm
Fair comment, Breeks. It’s just that the EU, as far as I know and please correct me if I’m wrong, hasn’t actually said an independent Scotland would be allowed to stay in the EU. If the EU actually came out and said it would I’d heartily agree with all of your views.
Perhaps the EU has secretly telt Holyrood it would? Or is it more likely the EU would offer terms similar to those stated by Derick fae Yell, 3:22pm? Again, I would happily go along with that.
I really hope Holyrood and Brussels clearly propose future measures concerning an independent Scotland’s relationship with the EU well before Indyref2. Although I appreciate that might be tricky politically for the EU.
The reason I advocated a guarantee of a EU referendum in the first parliamentary term of an independent Scotland was because I believe that would bring onboard many of those who want independence but don’t like the EU. Hence my “home and dry” bit.
See the Herald is still a load of shite.
“Dr Jim says:
15 January, 2018 at 3:20 pm
The isolationists are back, the I want Independence but I won’t vote for it If I don’t get my blackmailing way by proposing it’s the same type of mental isolationism the English want
I’m strangely torn as to whom I don’t understand more The English Brexiter attitude or the Scottish Nationalist Brexiter both sets of people who don’t seem to want to interact on a personal basis with anybody who’s not them”
So what sort of interaction would you say that it was when, out of a total of around 120 SNP MPs and MSPs at the time of Brexit a total of 0 felt able to openly campaign against the on-message and EuroEstablishment party line? Seems that 36% of SNP voters were being told to “eat their cereal”.
And were you surprised that 500,000 voters subsequently walked away?
And we’re supposed to accept this as a democratic debate?
Socrates MacSporran
Never appy for a job as a comic, you would starve dear boy
We definitely can’t ‘stay’ in the EU through the independence process because the EU is a club of independent states. We are not an independent state and therefore not a member.
Barroso said it. Juncker said it. Juncker and the Commission and assorted luminaries said it to Catalonia.
But it doesn’t matter one whit. The benefits are all in the single market, not the EU as such.
I don’t care if politicians get to go to the European Parliament to grandstand, er I mean represent us. I do care, deeply, that we find a position that maximises the Yes vote, that maximises the chance we will be independent and that protects the Four Freedoms for me and mine.
The Single Market is what’s important. And the Single market is what unites us.
Yes, have a referendum in due course on whether to rejoin the EU, but firstly and foremostly let’s win, and let’s protect our economy and rights.
And Yes, EFTA EEA as I have been arguing for, for the last year and a half, is not the optimum economic position. But it may be the optimum ACHIEVABLE position
I hope you don’t mind me bringing this over from the last article Jack. Seven hundred views? Does anyone know if this was broadcast in full on the BBC / STV this morning?
@ Jack Murphy says at 2:01 pm ….. VIDEO. Statement this morning 15th January 2018,by the First Minister of Scotland and Mike Russell MSP on–
‘Scotland’s Place in Europe:people,jobs and investment.’
Statement is now Archived and available here.
YouTube. link to tinyurl.com
Starts a couple of minutes in.
………………………………………….
Wee Ginger Dug: ‘This is the year we’ll win the independence argument.’
link to thenational.scot
One of The Mooths rats in Westminster got told off by the speaker,
“Stop banging on about SNP policy” he lambasted the yoon gimp Douglas Moray,
even the English Torys were laughing at their pet Uncle Jock.
OK. Two statements. Which is true ?
1. The EU has not said an independent Scotland can remain in the EU.
2. The EU has not said an independent Scotland would be refused entry to the EU?
Both actually, unless you can show me the European Council minutes stating otherwise.
@Derick fae Yell 3:59pm
Again, I agree with you. Priority No.1 is to achieve independence by ending the union with England. As you rightly say we must “find a postition that maximises the Yes vote…” where Scotland’s relationship with the EU is concerned.
Or, to put it crudely: the end justifies the means.
Scot Finlayson Try Douglas Ross Conservative MP Moray its nearer the mark .
David Caledonia
RE voting as the UK…..
Aye both the Kingdoms voted but they voted differently and nae attempt has been made by the Parliament the Treaty allows to exercise power,to square that circle.
That means that the Union disnay work….. and it’s no going to work.
That’s the whole point,David why should any of one of the two kingdom’s not get what they voted for…..we have no more right to keep England in the EU than they have to make Scotland leave it.
All because of some old Treaty the ruling elites would quite like to keep
Simple answer…..dump the 1707 Treaty I mean other than keeping the rich rich….what is it for?
It serves no purpose for the ordinary English people and it’s getting in the way of Scottish Democracy!
O/T
Looks as though Tomkins has just enough brain cells to realise that 49% of Scots supporting Independence is a clear threat to his beloved Union. Maybe he even understands too that once you’ve seen the ‘Independence’ light there’s no turning back, rather we move forward to gain even more support.
‘Lesley Riddoch: ‘Condemnation for potential Westminster power grab post-Brexit unites MSPs.’
‘…Scottish Tory MSPs, led by their constitutional spokesperson Adam Tomkins, have criticised Theresa May over her government’s botched timetabling of the EU Withdrawal Bill. Amendments to prevent the aforementioned power grab were set to be debated by MPs in the House of Commons this week, but will now be debated by bishops, millionaires and disgraced former ministers next week in the House of Lords instead….’
link to thenational.scot
@Dan Huil
@Breeks
Re EU. I think iScotland would find itself in the same asymmetrical negotiating position the UK is currently – everything hinges on what outcome the EU wants.
Whatever way it ends up, Scotland will be no less of a sovereign nation than any other in Europe. Is Sweden really less sovereign than Norway? Bet the Swedish don’t think so.
IMO iScotland would be mad to want to do it’s own full Scexit. In the initial years we want to be as closely coupling as possible with the EU.
It might play out as single market membership continuing, then a move to full negotiated membership a number of years later. Or we could fast track to full member. As I say, I reckon that is the EU’s decision.
The question Scotland has to ask itself is how do we make our constitutional decisions democratically? Do we proceed through parliamentary democracy where parties manifestos outline policies (like full membership, or Norway style) and when elected they carry out these policies? Or, do we have referendums on major decisions?
If we go down the referendum route with the EU, it might take various forms. As already said – EEA then vote to go full member, or start full member and have a vote to ratify that after a few years.
I have to come back to my original point. It depends greatly on the EU.
What is the best approach to the EU to win IndyRef2?
Is it campaign for Indy, and defer EU discussions? Or go straight for Indy as an EU member?
I have to say that campaigning for membership inside the EU and Indy is my favoured option. (If the EU agree in advance) This is a robust and clear option. It strike me as a much more secure and stable future that Brexit UK, so has strong selling points. I think voters would welcome clarity rather than kicking the can down the road. My opinion anyways.
All depends on the EU, though.
Dan Huil 4:11
Personally I think the means is also quite a decent end in itself, or at least a decent place to rest and take stock
There must be a reason why support for moving from EFTA-EEA to EU-EEA has fallen in Norway from 48% in 1994 to under 20% now. And in Iceland from 57% in 2002 to 25% now.
It works for them. And they are very like us in many ways
O/T
Robbed of our oil revenue and jobs on the rigs. Next up …
Another Think Tank’s (Options for Scotland) views. One wonders who they actually ‘think’ on behalf of?
………………..
‘Gregg Russell: Call to leave abandoned oil rigs in the North Sea ‘beggars belief.’
‘A leading industry figure has branded as “ludicrous” an academic’s suggestion that oil platforms should be left in the North Sea when they reach the end of their working life.
Tom Baxter, a senior lecturer in chemical engineering at Aberdeen University, said in a paper for the Options for Scotland think tank that the rigs could be cleaned up, made safe and left where they are.
He said it would offer better value for money for taxpayers, and claimed current decommissioning rules could do more harm to the environment than good.
Under the rules – which include the Petroleum Act 1998 and the Ospar convention governing the North Sea – oil and gas firms mostly have to remove installations when they are no longer in use.
The cost of decommissioning is shared between the firms and the UK Government, which has been giving the oil companies tax breaks for years. Baxter said taxpayers could pay a final bill of between £20 billion and £30bn.
Baxter said the money saved by leaving the structures in place could be redirected into green energy, such as solar, tidal or wind power.
However, Professor Alex Russell, who chairs the Oil Industry Finance Association, said the idea “beggars belief”. Speaking exclusively to The National, Russell said: “This wouldn’t be allowed on land, so why should it be allowed in the North Sea? It’s completely unacceptable. “The Scottish Government needs to take control – responsibility for the North Sea should be devolved 100 per cent to Holyrood.
“The fact of the matter is that, over the years, Westminster has taken more the £300bn in tax from the North Sea and this has been squandered by London.
“Scotland has been robbed. Why should Scottish taxpayers have to foot the bill for decommissioning? The oil companies should clean up their own mess.
Baxter said the motivation for offshore architecture removal was environmental. He said: “If, as many believe, the most pressing issue of our time is global warming, then it may be much more beneficial for the environment, society and the economy if the architecture was left clean and in place and the money saved directed into green energy and emissions reduction.”
Baxter said a growing number of experts now argued there was little environmental benefit from removal.
He went on: “Indeed, some of the decommissioning activities will do more environmental harm than good. This is due to seabed disruption of marine colonies built up over 30 or so years.
“Furthermore, the removal process itself is very energy intensive, with consequent harmful combustion gas emissions contributing to global warming. If the architecture is left in place, it will naturally continue to reef, providing an environmental positive.”
Dr Lyndsey Dodds, head of marine at environment group WWF Scotland, said: “Given the very generous tax-breaks and incentives the oil industry has received over the years, the idea that it might be allowed to wriggle out of its internationally agreed obligations to clean up its mess is unacceptable.
“Having made hundreds of millions of pounds in profits, the polluter should now pay.”
A spokeswoman for the UK Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy said: “Offshore oil and gas operators must decommission installations and pipelines at the end of a field’s economic life.
“This is done in accordance with UK and international obligations and is delivered in a safe, efficient and cost-effective manner for taxpayers, while minimising the risk to the environment and other users of the sea.”’
link to thenational.scot
@ ronnie anderson
cheers,:)
One of The Mooths rats in Westminster got told off by the speaker,
“Stop banging on about SNP policy” he lambasted the yoon gimp Douglas Ross MP for Moray,
even the English Torys were laughing at their pet Uncle Jock.
Time to get off of your knees folks…. SCOTS. Stop grovelling and cringing.
Get that Crown, dog collar, back on the Unicorn’s head and smash these chains to smithereeens. Chained they say because a free unicorn is considered to be a very dangerous beast; ferocious and wild enough to kill the lion. Time to bring THE lion to it’s knees.
link to youtube.com
link to visitscotland.com
David Caledonia says:
15 January, 2018 at 1:13 pm
And btw Geeo, when we get our independence we will be out of europe anyway, cause we would be a new country that needs to apply to get in
Is it likely EU would reject the application?
Read the report. Its not exactly a revelation but we all know we are going to have Project Fear 2.0 rage very loud at us, stay in the UK single market, its your biggest, vile seps, so stay in it.
MEMBERSHIP OF THE EUROPEAN SINGLE
MARKET PROVIDES SCOTLAND’S BUSINESSES
WITH UNRESTRICTED ACCESS TO A MARKET
OF OVER 510 MILLION PEOPLE.
Also, English socio economics, media, class structures, Earra-Ghàidheal’s their nuke WMD horror dump, royals domination, of everything? meh.
Low-levels of reflective thought and high levels of stress, combine to encourage political conservatism. This can be easily mobilised for economic and political gains, for some (see Brexit). Right-wing authoritarianism tends to combine with Social Dominance Orientation to produce pretty nasty pieces of work.
link to jstor.org
Oh dear, the SG publish some well-researched estimates (something of a first, that) about what Brexit will really cost, and we get a flood of the usual suspects telling us that it’s all irrelevant. Or something. Just like the BitterTogetherers before them, the Leavers are fast running out of that smokescreen stuff they were furiously using.
Anyone who claims an exclusive UK-only context for the EURef is a Unionist, plain and simple. A complete giveaway.
It’s not about people “eating cereal” either, it’s about people shedding fond illusions based on madcap BritNat propaganda, and instead waking up to stark reality. Brexit is a categorical historical error. For the UK as a whole, and also for Scotland whether in or out of its coat-tails. Since public mindsets increasingly differ north and south, we prefer to choose our own path for ourselves now.
As for Scotland in the EU, the very millisecond a referendum result is declared for indy, we become free to negotiate with the EU in our own right. All shackles are off.
And it’s as clear as daylight (at least for those willing to see) that in those circumstances the EU would be very happy to keep us on board. And give us any necessary leeway to complete the change, even if not formally signed and sealed by end March 2019. (It’s willing to do so for the English Leavers, after all.)
Wishing for a referendum post March 2019 is simply to wish to scupper this golden opportunity. Things are still in flux, but there is every indication that our SG is acutely aware of that, and won’t fumble the ball.
Forget most things the media tells you, the truth is more than likely the opposite.
Just vote YES next time.
It is time to put some papers out of our misery, by not feeding them.
Proud cybernat, those figures provided by Scots Government are misleading, in my opinion they should not have said them. Its very easy for the UK OK people to say they are rubbish.
They should have left it as a hit to gdp of 17.2 billion pounds up to 2030 . That is not the same as a loss of £2300 per year per person.
Robert Graham 1.52pm
Re Carlaw commenting , how can anyone believe a twat that had a mahoosively successful car business and allow it to fail , this is a tolie whose family had a car business with branches all over Scotland possibly as big as Arnie
He is the LAST person I would ask or listen to for business advice
Well done Nicola you are a credit to Scotland , my problem with this assessment is that these tollie twats might be forced to change their minds and remain within the EU ( I bloody hope not ) , that would leave indy2 struggling and we would have the status quo , and lets be honest wastemonster CANNOT survive without the rich resources of Scotland , oil and gas , water , renewables , power . all parties and leaders know this irrespective of their bluff and bluster
O/T
Lead singer of my favourite band, The Cranberries, Dolores O’Riordan has just died (aged 46).
Will miss you Dolores.
Cranberries ‘Dreams’:
link to youtube.com
Scot Finlayson says:
15 January, 2018 at 4:04 pm
One of The Mooths rats in Westminster got told off by the speaker,
“Stop banging on about SNP policy” he lambasted the yoon gimp Douglas Moray,
even the English Torys were laughing at their pet Uncle Jock.
Anyone got a link
Did Leave votes have even the faintest idea what the EU is, was, will be, in and outside, other than getting johnny foreigner sent home?
link to prospectmagazine.co.uk
Lenny Hartley @ 17:19,
I don’t understand the basis of your objection, but this is politics, my friend.
You (and possibly I) might be able to take a more theoretical perspective, but most people can’t internalise some abstract GDP figure. For them it doesn’t translate into anything meaningful.
Throw abstract stats at folk and they will counter-intuitively respond (as in IR1) “we need more facts”. What they are actually saying is “we need more facts that we can understand” or even “we just need some reassurance from someone we can trust”.
Turning the economic costs of Brexit into something personal like a cost per head may or may not be academically respectable, but it reaches people. Above all, that’s what we must do.
used car salesmen (failed) tells the Scottish Government and people to butt out of Brexit issues.
That’s us telt!
Is wee Davidson still in London chatting to May? Strange–the day the Scottish Governement announces its analysis on brexit wee ruthie is at Nos 10, London when the English Government announces the bad news over Carillion swamping the air waves.
So many coincidences. Maybe Davidson will tell us what is discussed? Was Mundell there too or is he just ignored?
Y’know, people are suffering right this very moment under Westminster austerity legislation and the very threat of impending Brexit. If Scotland’s electorate are burdened with the full force of Brexit because of the actions of unionist parties or the media, I want them to remember this day and their reaction to the impact assessment.
If the worst comes to the worst and Brexit becomes the gawdawful clusterfuck many predict, then no one in either the establishment party ranks or the media must ever be allowed to say there was no warning, no responsible assessments or actions taken by the Scottish government.
They must not EVER be allowed to rewrite or airbrush over history. Something they have a habit of doing.
Just sayin’.
So the Lord Mayor of London comes up to the northernmost region of England just to show us that ignorance and arrogance still walk hand in hand!
Galamcennalath 12.23pm. Which is why, and it pains me to say so. Is why the rock keeps going on about Scots being stupid!.
I had a look at the European Parliament website to see what it has had to say on the question of Scotland remaining in the EU if it had voted to become Independent. Most of the answers giving to written questions were as you would expect, non committal.
However they did eventually seem to settle on a single answer and that was that a newly Independent state would be out of the EU from day one of its Independence and need to reapply.
I’m breaking this post into three questions and answers from the EU commission else it would be too long.
Question 25/10/12
“Can the Commission confirm whether it continues to hold the view, as expressed by Romano Prodi in 2004, that ‘when a part of the territory of a Member State ceases to be a part of that state, e.g. because that territory becomes an independent state, the treaties will no longer apply to that territory.
In other words, a newly independent region would, by the fact of its independence, become a third country with respect to the Union and the treaties would, from the day of its independence, not apply any more on its territory’?”
Answer
“Yes. The legal context has not changed since 2004 as the Lisbon Treaty has not introduced any change in this respect. Therefore the Commission can confirm its position as expressed in 2004 in the reply to the Written Question P-0524/04″
link to europarl.europa.eu
Petra this will be the next big lie they try & sell to the Scottish People Baxter was interviewed last week on tv , he’s a payed for opinionist that doesn’t care for his peers opinions . Yoon Mentality & if this is looked at with more scrutiny we will see who his paymasters are ( Oil Gas Companies ) who would save millions in decommissioning costs .
From Ken(in a nutshell)500..
The reason the Tories want out of the EU is so they can tax evade. The EU are clamping down on tax evasion.
Yes, the TORIES, and their establishment chums, LABOUR, the small ‘c’/’red’ conservatives.
They can’t let ‘foreigners’, including Scots, see how they’ve sold and resold everything..they might tell the people the truth.
Second question and with the same answer.
Question 29/10/12
“Commission President José Manuel Barroso recently commented on BBC Radio 4’s World at One programme regarding the referendum on Scottish independence planned for 2014. President Barroso said that if Scotland were to leave the United Kingdom, then it would have to reapply for membership of the European Union.
If the Scottish electorate does indeed vote in 2014 to leave the United Kingdom and Scotland subsequently becomes an independent country, then that will change the nature of the United Kingdom itself.
When Britain joined the European Economic Community on 1 January 1973 it did so as the United Kingdom, comprising England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. If Scotland leaves the United Kingdom, then there is a question as to the legal status of the membership of both Scotland and the remainder of the UK.
The Commission is asked to answer the questions set out below.
Following the possible exit of Scotland from the United Kingdom as from 2014:
1. what would be the status of Scotland and of the remainder of the UK following their separation, and before any renegotiation with the EU had taken place? Would both countries cease to be members of the European Union until new terms had been agreed and new accession treaties signed?
2. would Scotland have to reapply for membership of the European Union?
3. would the remainder of the United Kingdom have to reapply for membership of the European Union?
4. would Scotland and the UK be obliged to join the European single currency (the euro), as new accession countries and under the terms laid down in the Treaty of Lisbon?”
Answer
“Yes. The legal context has not changed since 2004 as the Lisbon Treaty has not introduced any change in this respect. Therefore the Commission can confirm its position as expressed in 2004 in the reply to the Written Question P-0524/04″
link to europarl.europa.eu
Lots of greeting and bedwetting, as the Russian Blackjack, long range bombers cruised along the edges of our airspace.
Check the pic the Typhoon pilot took. The Blackjack looks well cool.
link to twitter.com
Fluffy Mundell just on BBC Radio Jockland repeating that the majority of Scots don’t want a second Indy Ref.
Didn’t his party just go through an election expressly on that manifesto and lose badly, 13 MP’s out of 59!
The reporter then went onto cover Ruth Morrison’s visit to see May in Downing St over the Brexit impasse and the reporter referred to influence that the “good” Tory MP’s could wield and that they would need to be taken into consideration.
Drive time around 5.35 I think, deplorably biased!
BBC r4 teatime news there, one of their finest professional liars future Lady Sarah Smith, making it very clear that today’s Scottish Government Brexit paper is ofcourse all Nicola Sturgeon’s.
Must be annoying to say listening to beeb professional liars put words in your mouth day in day out but this is how it works in the teamGB zone.
RIP Dolores 🙁
O/T
@ Proud Cybernat says at 5:22 pm …. ‘Lead singer of my favourite band, The Cranberries, Dolores O’Riordan has just died (aged 46). Will miss you Dolores.”
One of my favourite groups too PC. The beautiful Dolores with a fantastic voice … gone … leaving three children behind, one aged 12.
My all time favourite song:
link to youtube.com
link to en.wikipedia.org
@Lanarkist –
Yeah, heard it.
The BBC is shielding Mundell.
Question P-0524/04 as referred to in the answers to the previous two questions is not in relation to Scotland at all but appears to be being used as setting a precedent.
Question 12/02/04
“Can the Commission confirm that, if a Member State were to divide as a result of a region democratically gaining independence, that the precedent set by Algeria would apply?
Can the Commission explain what exactly happened in the Algeria case?
Could the Commission confirm whether a newly independent region would have to leave the EU and then apply for accession afresh?
Would an application of this type require a renegotiation of the treaties at an IGC and the unanimous agreement of the 25 Member States?”
Answer
“The European Communities and the European Union have been established by the relevant treaties among the Member States. The treaties apply to the Member States (Article 299 of the EC Treaty).
When a part of the territory of a Member State ceases to be a part of that state, e.g. because that territory becomes an independent state, the treaties will no longer apply to that territory.
In other words, a newly independent region would, by the fact of its independence, become a third country with respect to the Union and the treaties would, from the day of its independence, not apply anymore on its territory.
Under article 49 of the Treaty on European Union, any European State which respects the principles set out in Article 6(1) of the Treaty on European Union may apply to become a member of the Union.
An application of this type requires, if the application is accepted by the Council acting unanimously, a negotiation on an agreement between the Applicant State and the Member States on the conditions of admission and the adjustments to the treaties which such admission entails. This agreement is subject to ratification by all Member States and the Applicant State.”
Now I’m pretty certain that the EU would not view an application from Independent Scotland as it would an Independent Algeria.
If though you are hoping that the EU prior to a second vote on Independence might make some kind of official positive statement on behalf of an Independent Scotland then you are likely to be sorely disappointed in my view.
We need to plan for that scenario that we will be out and find what might be best in the short term, then let the voters know.
Link to that last post.
link to europarl.europa.eu
BBC Reporting Scotland our national broadcaster headlining pot holes but no mention of Shell oil plans or 70 dollar price.
ITV news: Carillion fiasco across the UK.
Just heard that it was the ”Aberdeenshire deal that actually pushed Carillion over the edge.”
Just beggars belief.
Disreporting tonight is an absolute f@#%!?* disgrace. Twisted, creepy bunçh of LiARS
Robert J Sutherland just found this regarding Osbourn which echoes my thoughts , quote “the report also translated these figures into GDP per capita terms – a tactic that George Osborne also tried when he published a Treasury report on the impact of Brexit before the referendum. Osborne’s tactic is generally seen to have been a failure, partly because the figures he used seemed too precise to be plausible for a long-term forecast and partly because implying that GDP per capita was the same as household income was seen as misleading. Unquote ”
Re the cranberries, met them when they were staying in same hotel as me in London one night , first time they appeared on Top of the Pops. Had a few drinks with them, good bunch of kids, incidently that was the night I made the discovery that the Celts are missing the common sense gene. I was attending a conference with 500 people from all over Europe from Portugal to Poland, the first night there was dinner at the Natural History Museum followed by free bar at aforementioned hotel. 4 am and with the conference starting in 4 hours there are four people left taking advantage of the free bar, 2 Scots, 1 Irish and 1 Welsh. Needless to say none of us turned up until after lunch the next day 🙂
Bobp says:
IMO not stupid, well not most anyway, just ill informed.
I am not totally surprised that WM and the MSM have been so successful forstering ignorance and misunderstanding about Brexit.
There has been a lot of effort giving the non establish view on Indy, not least by WoS. And I think that is slowly but surely progressing.
There has been very little equivalent information promoted by an alternative media about Brexit.
Political geeks ferret out a wider picture, but that isn’t as widely distributed.
Once IndyRef2 campaigning begins, and Brexit becomes totally intertwined with the Indy cause, folks will get a clearer picture about how suicidal Brexit is and how Indy offers a solution.
‘Nicola Sturgeon MSP’ according to the BBC. Wonder who the FM is these days.
@Thepnr
Thanks for the info ref EU membership. So I am wondering, would we be able to ensure membership of the SM upon becoming independent. Surely that would be a very strong card to play..
Bob Mack says:
15 January, 2018 at 4:10 pm
OK. Two statements. Which is true ?
1. The EU has not said an independent Scotland can remain in the EU.
2. The EU has not said an independent Scotland would be refused entry to the EU?
Both actually, unless you can show me the European Council minutes stating otherwise.
As I understand it Bob, Articles 48 and 49 of the Lisbon Treaty apply respectively if a) your EU Membership is as a continuer State, carrying on the terms of an existing membership, or alternatively, b) if you’re not tweaking an existing membership, and then it has to be considered on the basis of a “new” membership, and a new application is required accordingly.
I would argue however that Scotland’s circumstances are unique, and neither Articles 48 or 49 are truly applicable to Scotland’s circumstances, and a third bespoke option requires to be negotiated.
Westminster has, and would again try to assert that dissolution of the Union would leave England the Continuer State, and Scotland would be the Seceding State, and has sought to argue as much. However, the Union which created the UK was a union of equals, so in constitutional terms, England has no constitutional authority to assume Continuer status. Dissolution of the Union should properly leave two sovereign but equal kingdoms, with neither one or the other being the Continuer State and the Seceding State.
So, under Constitutional law, the Lisbon Treaty has no precedent for handling a Country in Scotland’s unique situation.
It is impractical to expect Scotland to step up to honour and continue EU membership as the Continuer UK State when roughly only 1/10th of its size, but that argument is academic, because the concept of Continuer State and Seceding State is Constitutionally inapplicable.
Scotland properly should and would emerge from a United Kingdom which ceases to exist, as a sovereign Nation which is a member State of the EU by technical virtue of our existing status and citizenship, and even though the terms of our membership change dramatically, the EU has no mechanism to strip Scotland of its EU status and citizenship and gratuitously expel Scotland from the EU, particularly against our democratic wish to remain.
The popular narrative, that is where you accept the England would be the Continuer State and Scotland the Seceding State, currently is the prevailing opinion, thus spawning arguments that Scotland would have to re-apply. However, just because it’s the popular opinion doesn’t mean it’s correct. I believe that argument is constitutionally wrong.
It all boils down to Sovereignty, and the intricate detail of how the 1707 Act of Union between two equals “allegedly” transformed itself into a Union between a greater state and a lesser one.
The bottom line is The Lisbon Treaty as written, cannot accommodate the constitutional implications of the UK splitting up. There is no precedent for a nation that would find itself in Scotland’s circumstances, and I believe Scotland should already be defending its constitutional sovereignty on that basis with every breath, and it worries me greatly that we are not yet doing so.
Instead, we are currently acting as if we are accepting Scotland was indeed the Seceding State of the United Kingdom, forfeiting our status as an equal. Unless we change tack pretty quickly, then that is exactly how Scotland will be treated, and we will indeed lose our EU citizenship and be forced to reapply for it.
Defend our constitutional sovereignty however, and the EU will be obliged to improvise a bespoke arrangement which respects the sovereign status of an existing member state. That means we would negotiate the terms of our membership, as an existing member. Scotland might thus never technically leave the EU at all.
Before we can resolve Scotland’s EU membership status, we must, repeat must, for there is no alternative, we MUST resolve the question of our constitutional sovereignty and have that sovereignty properly recognised.
Despite my earlier posts on the Q&A’s about an newly formed Independent state being in or out of the EU. It may in fact actually be possible to be out in name only and back in on the very same day.
This scenario could theoretically come about if for example we voted for our Independence prior to the UK leaving in March 2019 and immediately began negotiations with the EU about membership as an Independent country prior to our actual date of Indpendence.
Alex Salmond reckoned it would take around 18 months to negotiate the finer details of our Independence with Westminster. Also it looks like the EU might agree a “transition period” where the UK is still following all the rules of the EU but without any input to those rules until the end of Dec 2019.
So if it was possible for an Independent Scotland to complete negotiations with BOTH the rUK and EU in less than 18-21 months then maybe we could ratify an agreement with the EU on the same day we conclude the talks with the UK.
Maybe too that is too big a mountain to climb in the time available, truthfully I believe it will be easier and quicker to negotiate with the four members of EFTA if we want to remain in the single market. The EU won’t be going anywhere meantime and we have to accept that negotiations with the EU (or rUK) may not be possible in 18 months.
You can be sure that these questions are being asked now by the SG.
Held my nose and voted Remain but my heart has always been more Nordic and EFTA makes more sense. I think we would be a welcome addition and a valued member given our assets and territorial waters.
EU would come with a fair bit of baggage.
Sorry, Dec 2019 should of course have been Dec 2020.
EU would come with a fair bit of baggage.
Its never felt like that. Here in Scotland, tory Westminster, red and blue has simply blocked all kinds of amazing things the EU has done.
All we ever heard from our tory teamGB masters was how shite the EU is, butter mountains, straight bananas, but there are a mountain of life enhancing EU policies flat out blocked when the reached Dover.
Big stuff too, like stopping UK fishing fleets emptying our seas of all life, they are our seas, to work time limits, scrapped by Bomber Blair and Crash Gordo. But we live in a miasma of tory lies and misinfo, so here we are.
Wonder when the £350 million EU dosh a week actually will get spent on new hospitals. Say that out loud to a Leave vote and the level of bullshit that comes flowing out of their gobs is very rule britannia spectacular, Guess which north and south side of Carlisle they are all from?
And when the slaves left out of Egypt in their multitudes
They didnae ask where they were fucking going because they knew they were better aff fucking free
It was only later when the house slaves started their mixing shite Moses hud tae skelp their Arses and point out *Look dae yeez waant tae go back it’s aw the same tae me*
And the multitude said *Fuck no*
My sincere apologies for the over use of colourful language
@Scott
if you go to
link to tinyurl.com
it was Douglas Ross of Moray not Douglas Moray of Ross or Ross Moray of Douglas,
think he is the part time soccer linesman.
Thepnr
Thank you.
The EU, and EFTA, are both membership organisations of independent states. End of.
To answer ScottieDog : no we can’t guarantee seamless single market membership, but we could ask.
I think it’s better to be realistic, and go into a vote with what we can deliver.
Yes we would be out of the EU on independence.
Yes we may be out of the single market for a while
No, as part of the UK we would be out, permanently
Yes, we have a practical plan to get back into the single market as soon as possible
Yes, we will immediately apply to EFTA as soon as we are Independent
We expect to be a member within a few months
Yes we will immediately apply to join the EEA once we are able EFTA member
Yes, we think we can regain single market membership within a year of Independence, if we are not able to maintain seamless membership
Yes, we will have the choice of moving to EU membership later, if we so choose
Suppose you know nothing about the inner workings and complexities about EU, just ask yourself how many Nations are in but wanting out, and how many Nations are out but wanting in.
Then remind yourselves our media is dominated by the ONLY member state who wants to leave, and they still couldn’t persuade 62% of us it was a good idea.
Dr Jim Ah hate it when sumbudy starts ah story in the middle lol .
Thepnr @ 19:29,
The “out-and-right-back-in” scenario you mention is my view as expressed upthread. There is no reason that we couldn’t remain provisionally “in” throughout negotiations taking place, however long they may take.
As I already said, if the EU is willing to concede a period of provisional status to an exiting member, how much more ready would it be to do so for a continuing member?
This notion that we would be “out” for an extended period of bureaucratic wrangling is a pernicious one in our case, IMO.
Breeks also pre-empted upthread my very reaction to the EU Commission’s responses you covered. The answers are all predicated on one obvious sub-state separating from an obvious existing member state, in which case there is a presumption of “continuing status” for the member state. That could well be the case with Catalonia and Spain, for example. But what if some state voluntarily splits into two equal parts? Which part then is “continuing” and which not? How can anyone tell, especially if both want to remain? Or are both out, by necessity because both are substantially different from the whole? This situation could well arise, for example, if Belgium were to split into Wallonia and Flanders.
It did actually happen with Czechoslovakia, except that was before either joined the EU, fortunately for the dunderheads in the EC. (Which – significantly – is why Fluffy explicitly and uninvited attempted to discount that precise precedent when interviewed, though everyone got themselves distracted by the “Scotland was extinguished” business instead.)
This is an issue that is just not covered in the EU treaties. Any of them. That is the problem the EU will have to one day recognise, whether anyone likes it or not. (I still hope and believe it will be us that “breaks the mould”.)
There is one last issue that Breeks didn’t quite cover. If England+ wants to leave and Scotland wants to stay, by right we must be the continuing state as far as the EU is concerned. How can it possibly be otherwise?
But whatever. Continuing as a member in our own right would still require renegotiation. I don’t think anyone disagrees about that. But the important thing to recognise is that it doesn’t require an actual practical change in our situation while that takes place.
That is the “status quo” option we should be promoting. To casually throw it away would be the height of folly.
@Breeks,
Nicely summarised.
The problem I have is with posters who come on site complaining bitterly over a Westminster run government which has done little but fleece Scotland over centuries ,of her assets and abilities. These same posters then complain about the EU who as far as I can see have done little but try to bolster the Scottish economy through grants and subsidies.
In other words the exact opposite of Westminster. It still seems to be that mindset for some is to be like “Great Garbo”
I. E. “I want to be alone”, whilst every other nation on the planet is trying to forge alliances in a dangerous world they want to pull up a drawbridge.
It is utterly ludicrous—-and dangerous.
Let’s face facts:
Regarding the UK EU ref, where the FM said Scotland’s sovereign democratic will must be respected,Remain in the EU, that position has now been abandoned by the SNP.
They have drawn a new red line: Soft Brexit.
They already have another red line drawn: refusal of an LCM after refusal of a soft Brexit and the “unacceptable” WM devolution power grab. But as the FM made clear, that’s based on a convention, so is another useless red line.
Scotland’s people are sovereign. That sovereignty is not being defended and asserted with empty posturing. Demanding this, demanding that. Saying something is unacceptable, then backing down.
What a complete waste of time that serves only to undermine Scotland’s sovereignty and we still can’t get a straight answer as to whether there will be an indyref or not.
It’s a case of: wait and see what the UK Govt and EU decides for us. That’s not sovereignty, that’s servility.
@ Dr Jim
you often make me smile, and you are on good form today.
Derek fae Yell
I think the thing which may be our lifebelt is the transition period. That’s the thing we don’t know yet, and I think it’s why Scotgov are just keeping up the good management role, and refusing to discuss independence. It gives them more time to hear the complaints from Unionists, showing that Tories always turn it to Independence.
They are showing responsibility with their assessments, the incompetence and duplicity of Corbyn, whilst England is falling to its knees.
If its no deal, transition seems unlikely. That in my opinion does leave us with a gap, but as you say, we are out anyway.
Bob Mack @ 20:41,
You are not wrong.
The seductive notion of “going it alone” as if the rest of the world can be made to disappear without any consequence whatever, or even with some positive outcome, is indeed a dangerous delusion.
It’s as if, with the passing of a generation with personal experience of the times, there’s been a collective disconnect from the valuable lessons of the 1930’s (not to mention previous economic spasms).
As Dr Jim rightly mentioned earlier, we need to strengthen and improve international co-operation, and for the benefit of all, not junk it. Isolationism has the strongest appeal by far and away to extremists of both right and left, who have their own narrow agendas. Creepy needs to resurrect past nightmares. Which should tell anyone all they need to know about how brilliant a course that would be to take.
Sometimes events make you wonder about the EU. The German power company RWE has erased the village of Erkelenz-Immerath and its cathedral like 19th Catholic church in order to extend a lignite (brown coal) open cast mine. The coal will be burnt in the company’s power stations. Lignite is amongst the worst of atmospheric pollutants. The German state seems happy with this.
Hi Derick fae Yell at 8:21 pm.
You typed,
“Yes we would be out of the EU on independence.”
But, if the UK ceases to exist, prior to the UK leaving the EU, because Scotland has revoked the Treaty of Union (1707), then we’ll have a situation where an EU member has reverted to two individual states/kingdoms/nations – before the date of the UK leaving the EU.
How is the EU gonna handle that scenario?
Methinks, perchance, that the strategists in the SNP have been investigating all the scenarios. The next 11 months are gonna be interesting.
RobertJS 8.38pm well put Robert basically who determines or decides who the continuing state is , and as you have said Engerland wishing to go negates any confusion , so consequently we are not leaving and will not be ejected ergo we are the continuing state SIMPLES eh
Ottomanboi @ 21:09,
What has that to do with the EU, FGS?
The German State is sovereign, and can do what it damn well pleases, like it or not. (The country still has an unhealthy dependence on coal-generated electricity, made worse after it rowed back on nuclear, but maybe we could sell them more of ours.)
So other than yet another casual anti-EU smear, your point is…?
@Robert J. Sutherland
I appreciate your thoughts and those of Breeks on this matter and I approach the same subject wishing for the same outcome (membership of the EU) but from a different perspective.
The first point and probably most important is that before any second referendum the Scottish Government has to have a very clear position on this.
Unless the EU Commission explicitly state that if Scotland votes for Independence she will be welcome as a member with uninterrupted access then this approach will fail in my view.
The power is in the hands of the EU and its 27 members as to whether Scotland stays or goes. I see it as being very unlikely to get any kind of definitive answer on this before a second referendum. That puts Scotland on the back foot if “promising” membership of the EU when nothing has been settled.
As for the “continuing state” it was Westminster (with Scottish elected members) as the parliament of the UK that joined the EEC, the Scottish parliament wasn’t even in existence.
I believe than that the EU will still see Westminster as the “continuing state” regardless of Brexit. They will see a member state exiting the EU, a member state that includes Scotland.
Now it’s not all doom and gloom, there could be a deal that keeps Scotland as a member after Independence and before the transition period has ended. Unfortunately we’re going to have to have a vote on Independence before we know that is possible.
The problem as I see it is that the MSM and Westminster will rip the Scottish Government to shreds is they claim that we can retain membership when it is not in the power of the Scottish Govrnment to do so. That power lies with the EU and they will say precisely NOTHING on our behalf in my view.
Touché! they have us over a barrel. The Scottish Government must be realistic over the claims it makes prior to another referendum. One of these is EU membership, the other is destroying the myth of the UK Single Market which might even be a bigger obstacle to winning than currency was last time.
Plenty food for thought, nobody said it’d be easy and it won’t.
colin alexander says:
15 January, 2018 at 8:58 pm
Let’s face facts:
We get it Colin A, you want Scotland to stop voting SNP.
But another side to all this is asking SNP out guys like yourself Colin A, why has toryboy UK gov not produced anything like this kind of report from Scots gov?
Its just all very weird, that the crew that have stripped of us our EU citizenship, have still to tell us what is coming,
So Colin A, why does that not interest, let alone trouble you much at all?
A closer look at the Carrilion debacle.
link to caltonjock.com
Re. the latest yoon effort to bamboozle the Scottish electorate, the so called UK Single Market. Either the UK is a single market or it is a nation state, it can not be both at the same time. Her Majesty’s Government appears to consider the UK to be a nation state (see Brexit).
So which one is it yoons?
Thepnr @ 21:22,
All valid points.
The definite offer, which you rightly state is needed, could be as follows:
+ immediately on the declaration of an independence referendum win – and before 29.March.2019 – open separate negotiations with the EU with a view to the unbroken continuance of membership. The EU will not refuse in advance to countenance such an opening – it would be the height of absurdity otherwise – and it should be possible to get prior agreement from EU leaders on that narrow point.
(You are right though, they will be unlikely to go on public record at least to any more than that.)
+ By all means have backup plans ready, including involving EFTA. Not only as having a “Plan B”, but also to indicate to the EU that we wouldn’t be a walkover in negotiations.
We do need though to avoid the mistake of too rigid an insistence on one outcome, as we arguably did with currency in IR1. Whatever position we take will inevitably be attacked by the BritNats anyway.
What we need is a continuation in effect of what the SG are doing now, which is to have a clear intent. A clear direction and a convincing road map for getting there. To me the winning intent is, as gala has often said, to aim to preserve – as far as possible – the current status quo. Membership of the world’s largest trading bloc and the rights that flow from that membership. As against the continuing chaos and uncertainty of a power-grabbing UKexit.
If we get into arguments about which flavour of Brexit-Lite we might prefer in contrast to the English version of the thing, as we too often seem to be doing, it will all fall apart in confusion and we’ll lose.
colin alexander says:
15 January, 2018 at 8:58 pm
Let’s face facts:
What’s that Colin A, you’re only on WoS btl to get SNP out and do have anything to say about the red and blue tory creepshow?
I’m shocked Colin A. It is odd that dudes like you are just still not satisfied with the whole UK media led beeb gimp network mercilessly SNP badding, it for money Colin A. At least all the UK media get paid to do what they do do.
What do you get out of it though Colin A?
That one goes out to your colleague Rock too.
Heedtracker
The Scottish Govt should have established Scotland’s view on the EU – not as an UK-wide referendum, but as Scotland.
The Scottish Govt should have stuck to their guns. EU membership is EU membership, not Soft Brexit, not hard Brexit.
If people voted to stay with the UK and the UK is dragging Scotland out the EU, then the Scot Govt should be saying, this is not just NO voters being betrayed: This is all Scotland being betrayed. As the UK Govt promised a NO vote would GUARANTEE EU membership.
They should either have stuck to their guns with any of the sovereignty red lines or have said from the start they are powerless and this is how Scotland is treated. Like dirt.
The SNP should have refused ANY cooperation with the UK Govt where Scotland’s sovereign will is not respected and upheld.
Credit to the SNP that they have argued this LCM refusal and complained about devolved powers going to WM, but they should threaten to resign and force a new election if the power grab goes ahead.
That election should be: indy v staying with the UK.
So, I’m highly critical of the UK Govt. They are incredibly incompetent. Undemocratic etc etc.
But my focus is Scotland’s independence. That the UK now has such a shambles of a Govt is just another good reason to choose independence.
Our financial institutions should be reformed;
‘The current mode of financial capitalism is the mechanism to make the wealthy wealthier by gambling with the money collected from ordinary people in spending on pensions and insurance and benefiting from people suffering life-long debts in homes, cars and/or higher education. Today’s financial sector, like Scrooge, makes profits from people’s desperate lives, financial insecurity or necessity. If these activities are not sins, what are they?’
link to socialeurope.eu
Taking control of a new democratic narrative- the Good Society;
‘A group of thinkers and practitioners from all over Europe has been working on a new social democratic politics for several years now. What has been developed under the concept of the Good Society is a new social democratic narrative that takes a thorough, value-driven analysis of our current economic and political problems as a starting point to craft a new politics. The underlying idea is to develop a political vision that provides direction. The goal is to define the Good Society in order to make a “better society” possible and sketch the political way towards it. Such a value-driven political compass provides an important tool to navigate the stormy political seas we are currently facing, and is a useful starting point from which to address wider challenges…
The idea of a Good Society is based on democracy, community, and pluralism. It is democratic because only the free participation of every citizen can guarantee true freedom and progress. The Good Society is based on a community approach because it recognizes our mutual interdependencies and joint interests. And it is pluralistic because it draws vitality out of the diversity of political institutions, economic activities, and cultural identities’
link to thenextsystem.org
An Indy Scotland that leaves an archaic and feudal WM system behind can do both.
O/T
Brent Crude….Latest price….$70.24 per barrel.
colin alexander says:
15 January, 2018 at 9:59 pm
Heedtracker
Just more SNP bad though Colin A. Why?
Scotland does not exist in a bubble ofcourse, yet you treat it as if it does.
Brexit is not betrayal either, we voted NO 2014, its a consequence. Your relentless SNP out smear campaign is boring if only because it makes no sense. Scots gave up nation state Scotland or Scottish sovereignty to the UK gov in 2014. But you are here to deliver the UKOK coupe de grace, with the SNP out by 2021, in your own little way.
Fair enough, might work. Very transparent though. What is clearly winding up guys like you is SNP Scots gov is opposing tory UK gov and they’re doing it the most sensible way too.
That’s why its got to be SNP out because we all know what an FM Leonard or Colonel Ruth would be doing right now Colin A, fcuking Scotland hard.
@Robert J St her land.
The only isolationist states I know of are Albania and Bhutan.
In the past was China,Japan and Korea. We all know where they have ended up and why. China has chosen the peaceful route out of isolation thus far. Japan discovered that even an isolationist state needs resources even at the cost of war.
Isolation is death. This is what people are proposing for Scotland.
o/t
BBC in Scotland still attacking the health service. They don’t give up do they ,
Throughout the dismal hatchet job it refers to almost 500 non urgent operations cancelled last week , it does mention all non urgent operations in England had been cancelled .
Hasn’t it occurred to the dummies at Pacific Heights , most of the time you will not be operated on if you are suffering from flu as your immune system is already under strain fighting off the flu virus,
Not one mention of this in their hatchet job , good old Pravda hard at work as usual .
@Robert J. Sutherland
“Clear Intent”
I like that very much, I believe that before the second Independence referendum it should be stated that our “clear intent” is to remain within the EU.
Maybe they could put forward something like the following:
“Failing agreement on EU membership prior to Independence in order to remain within the single market we already have assurances that we would be accepted as members of EFTA and consequently the EEA“
Of course that too relies on having the support of the current membership of EFTA.
Now I’m thinking look at how bogged down I am becoming, it would likely get worse in the run up to Indyref2.
Maybe better just saying “Scotland remains committed to EU membership and after Independence the people of Scotland will be asked for their views”.
The point being that the people of Scotland will choose once we have the power to make that choice. That choice is dependent on Independence first, the NO choice option is OUT as the UK has spoken.
re; Thepnr@9.22
Oh you can bet your bottom dollar that the UKOKGov will be selling Scotland on the cheap to the rEU, or at least making some nice lucrative offers behind closed doors. What’s not to like for the rEU? Scotland is a bargaining chip, and the EU given their reputation re Catalonia, may well be keen to go along with a dirty deal re Scotland.
Who would give up the chance to get hold of some cheap oil and gas, renewables, land, fishing rights, farming rights, clean water, and er strategic stuff re Scottish maritime waters etc.
It all stinks to high heaven. Keep your wits about you all, because we may be up against a bigger monster than is ideal. The EU has to be scrupulous, and democratic in it’s handling of democratically elected governments and must respect the process and practices of devolution here in the UKok. If they do not, then we and they, are in serious trouble and at risk of losing what is necessary to move into the 21st century, by embracing peace and freedom via the ballot box.
Things change, systems change, but it is up to the rEU to ensure that democracy and peace, not hate and war, prevails in all it’s guises and for all it’s faults. If not, we fail those of the future, quite simple.
@David Caledonia says: 15 January, 2018 at 12:23 pm:
“Get out of the toxic european union, then out of the toxic UK union, ahhhh, would’nt live be just wonderful when that happens.”
That must rank as about the most stupid and ignorant comment on Wings for quite a considerable period of time and I include in that assessment the false flag unionists.
heedtracker says:
15 January, 2018 at 10:09 pm
colin alexander says:
15 January, 2018 at 9:59 pm
Heedtracker
Just for you Colin A.
I know, I know, SNP out but even so dude, have a read. Its opposition, in whatever this farce UK union you love so much and think is worth lying your btl arse for…
Did Scots really vote for the UK, for this UK catastrofuck Colin A, no matter how hard you try to smear the SNP, with all kinds of tory shite?
link to snp.org
Thepnr says:
15 January, 2018 at 9:22 pm
“….I believe than that the EU will still see Westminster as the “continuing state” regardless of Brexit. They will see a member state exiting the EU, a member state that includes Scotland…….
….The problem as I see it is that the MSM and Westminster will rip the Scottish Government to shreds is they claim that we can retain membership when it is not in the power of the Scottish Govrnment to do so. That power lies with the EU and they will say precisely NOTHING on our behalf in my view.”
I would agree with you there. The EU left to its own devices will choose to pursue the most expedient option, and wherever there is precedent to guide them, they will be guided by that precedent. However that is why the appropriate legal legitimacy of recognised sovereignty is such a vitally important issue to get right, because if Scotland’s sovereignty is recognised, then the EU will have to be bound by what the term means.
Let me highlight the important bit again… The EU left to its own devices will choose to pursue the most expedient option…
That is precisely why the Scottish Government needs to be flexing a bit of sovereign muscle so that Europe is not left to its own devices, but instead, formally obliged to recognise that Scottish sovereignty has both relevance, potency and legal legitimacy. The EU should be encouraged to recognise the concept of Scottish Sovereignty, and if they attempt to fob us off as a junior non-interlocutor, then I’m sorry, but they should be compelled to recognise it.
I know Nicola is a Democrat, and wants make progress though persuasion and compassionate dialogue, and that she is forever conscience that she must ultimately answer to the electorate, but sovereignty issue is fundamentally different. It is not ephemeral like an elusive democratic majority, it is an absolute, yes/no, black/white, binary condition… Scotland is a sovereign Nation, or it is not. There can be no grey area.
If we, the people of Scotland can impress that distinction upon the leaders of Europe, Europe will be obliged by law to recognise the law of OUR country is sovereign, and that isn’t UK law as they presently believe it to be, it is Scots Law, but it is incumbent upon us Scots to make the EU understand the difference, because I promise you, the EU will not come to that conclusion by themselves.
To coin the phrase, “we can still rise now, and be a Nation again”. Indeed we can, but rise we must, because nobody will rise on our behalf.
Totally agree with Breeks. Scotlands circumstances are unique and on regaining our independence the EU would never strip us of our membership. We need to have our ScotRef before the rUK actually leave though or Westminster will drag us out and over the cliff-edge with them. link to storify.com
The Scottish Government should use a similar strategy to explain Banking and Currency
@Boris,
The billions redirected from healthcare to pay for the Labour and Tory PFI`s are the reason the English NHS is on the point catastrophic collapse,
UK Gov/Civil Service has been installing business leaders into every department of our Government supposedly to make our Government better prepared to handle and understand how to get the best out of the billions of £`s of Government contracts,
what they have done is put wolves in charge of the sheep,
Sir Ian Cheshire ( who worked for Guinness, as Ernest Saunders’ executive assistant,) is Government Lead Non-Executive,
Keith “IM VOTING NO” Cochrane CBE ,On 10 July 2017 he became Chief Executive of the now failed Carillion plc, and UK Government’s Lead Non-Executive Director for the Scotland Office,
Baroness Rona Fairhead complicit in money laundering and tax evasion when with HSBC is lead Minister for UK Export Finance,
There were 72 non-executive board members across 17 central government departments,
link to tinyurl.com
@Breeks
I’ve came around to your way of thinking with regards to the importance of where Sovereignty lies in Scotland and to it’s relevance to Scottish Independence.
What you have so far failed to explain as far as I know is just exactly how we would get the EU (and the UK for that matter) to accept the Scottish people as being sovereign.
Parliamentary sovereignty is a principle of the UK constitution. It makes Parliament the supreme legal authority in the UK, which can create or end any law. Generally, the courts cannot overrule its legislation and no Parliament can pass laws that future Parliaments cannot change. Parliamentary sovereignty is the most important part of the UK constitution.
People often refer to the UK having an ‘unwritten constitution’ but that’s not strictly true. It may not exist in a single text, like in the USA or Germany, but large parts of it are written down, much of it in the laws passed in Parliament – known as statute law.
Therefore, the UK constitution is often described as ‘partly written and wholly uncodified’. (Uncodified means that the UK does not have a single, written constitution.)
link to parliament.uk
Looks like a court case required but as the paragraph above states “Generally, the courts cannot overrule its legislation”.
Bit of a muddle then.
Thepnr @ 22:34:
I rather like that too, actually. It’s hard to gainsay it without blowing your cover as a fake democrat.
Maybe add “…after fully exploring the possibilities with all interested parties”.
(After all, it can’t possibly be worse than Full English Brexit, Canada-style. Which is the very best that the rUK will get.)
@heedtracker
I know you enjoy entertaining yourself with the resident fool but you must know he’ll never change, it’s his job and mission in life to be what he is, a fool
Anyway back to the topic of folk wanting Nicola Sturgeon to be their Mammy and somehow adopt new righteous powers she disnae have to smite the enemy wipe the bums and change the nappies
The Better together campaign illegally introduced the devo max vow option and based their whole campaign on promises of milk and honey to come for Scotland, then the moment they won using this tactic they immediately moved the goalposts to allow themselves a vote on the empty promises they had made then promptly voted them down
That’s UK democracy they were liars then and they’re liars now, and what folk are doing is arguing over the result of the Brexit lie the Tories have told us that hasn’t even happened yet
The only part of the UK they’re interested in benefitting is London, and the rest of us can work in the fields while we send our children up chimneys providing they don’t have diphtheria and rickets
Wer’e right at the moment to splash some cold water on our faces and wake up to the fact that no matter who we join or don’t join up with, no foreign power or country has ever treated Scotland with so much disdain, outright discourtesy and yes brutality as the powers that rule the UK
So I would postulate *what’s everybody worried about, is it going to be worse whoever it is* I don’t think so
@galamcennalath 4:24pm
Sorry it’s taken me a while respond to your comment. You’re right that it [Scotland’s relationship with the EU] depends on the EU. It’s also right the ScotGov makes sure the Scottish public is not dumfoonert by detail and complexity, and that the EU knows Scotland holds a much more open attitude towards the EU than other parts of the so-called united kingdom.
I agree with other posters here who say we must have confidence that the Scttish government has already been quietly talking to EU representatives to establish some kind of mutually acceptable position during Indyref2 and after Scotland regains its independence.
As many have said, it’s all in a state of flux at the moment. “May you live in interesting times” is usually seen as a curse. Not as far as I’m concerned.
One thing is certain: Independence must take priority; everything else is secondary.
Dr Jim says:
15 January, 2018 at 11:17 pm
@heedtracker
I know you enjoy entertaining yourself with the resident fool but you must know he’ll never change, it’s his job and mission in life to be what he is, a fool
He’s my useful idiot, aren’t you Colin A.
Why do you think The Vow was illegal though?
Not saying it was not a cheat, a classic toryboy creep out cheat, what ended up as the Smith Commision and abject arseholes like Prof Tomkins laying down the UKOK law,
but was it illegal?
Test since last post hasn’t appeared after 10 minutes.
@Heedtracker
According to UN referendum rules after a question is set for such a plebiscite there can be no interference in the democratic process by another country
The UK introduced another question *The Vow* using the British media before the vote took place, in my book that’s inteference
Alex Salmond said so at the time but by then nobody wanted to listen they’d been sucked in by that weeks latest Tory lie and the media certainly were’nt going to mention it because they were part of it, and I don’t know whether it was taken forward to the UN or not
@Breeks
I’ve came around to your way of thinking with regards to the importance of where Sovereignty lies in Scotland and to it’s relevance to Scottish Independence.
What you have so far failed to explain as far as I know is just exactly how we would get the EU (and the UK for that matter) to accept the Scottish people as being sovereign.
Parliamentary sovereignty is a principle of the UK constitution. It makes Parliament the supreme legal authority in the UK, which can create or end any law. Generally, the courts cannot overrule its legislation and no Parliament can pass laws that future Parliaments cannot change. Parliamentary sovereignty is the most important part of the UK constitution.
People often refer to the UK having an ‘unwritten constitution’ but that’s not strictly true. It may not exist in a single text, like in the USA or Germany, but large parts of it are written down, much of it in the laws passed in Parliament – known as statute law.
Therefore, the UK constitution is often described as ‘partly written and wholly uncodified’. (Uncodified means that the UK does not have a single, written constitution.)
link to parliament.uk
Looks like a court case required but as the paragraph above states “Generally, the courts cannot overrule its legislation”.
Bit of a muddle then that will take some sorting out.
Looks like EU is stiffening its stance on the transition period and Norway is getting antsy too according to the Guardian
link to archive.is
@Robert Graham
“o/t
BBC in Scotland still attacking the health service. They don’t give up ”
My mum a very fragile and old before her time lady passed away on Sunday night. Myself my brother and sister were at her side when she died. Both of them on entering the hospital on Thursday night made comments regarding the “state of the NHS” having obviously been indoctrinated by the Scottish media.
They left on Sunday with a VERY different view of our NHS and its dedicated work force. I made a point of leaving the Sarah smith tweets in full view. I think now they realise the skullduggery of our media.
I’ve criticised the NHS before – yes during SNP’s reign (albeit in the early days).
Mum’s care throughout was brilliant, even though we couldn’t get her into the hospice as it was full. The nurses in what was a busy unit in the Vic in Kirkcaldy not only looked after my mum, but brought us food, tea, and bedding as best they could. They were professional yet also very empathetic – a very special bunch of people.
I went back to collect the death certificate today and one of the nurses on the ward gave me a big hug. I kept it together until I left the hospital and then balled my eyes out.
We have something special in Scotland but it is fragile and we won’t have it for ever unless we leave the UK, or there is a paradigm shift in the economic establishment running the union. I can’t see the latter ever happening.
I’m sure England has brilliant care professionals too and so they should but they also unfortunately have a top tier of serf serving neoliberals wanting to turn it into a profit making shell.
I have never been more angry at the ‘free press’ in this country – especially since our care profession do so well and are the subject of so much political bombardment.
I wouldn’t go so far as to wish our experiences of the weekend on anyone but no doubt, some of them will come to rely on these professional careers. I just hope they can put that into words and show a sign of humility.
Rock (28th June – “Slight reprise”):
“The UK will have a “snap” Brexit while we are caught napping with no legislation in place for an independence referendum.”
Aw ScottieDog a big hug from me X and yes we have to fight tooth and nail to hang onto our wonderful NHS X
ScottieDog @ 11.50
My sincere condolences to you and your family.
I was in a similar situation a few weeks back and like yourself have nothing but praise for our NHS.
The compassion and humanity of the staff makes it all just about bearable.
The Media should be ashamed of themselves for the way they report on the NHS, these good people and their profession are desegregated,to cover for a government that will spend our money on everything and anything other than the one thing we all agree our taxes are for.
Hi Wingers, been very busy today so not had time to read all comments but enough to know that the SMSM, and Radio Jockland in particular,r are not reporting too much of what the SG/SNP have said or press released. May I suggest you look in the horse’s mouth for enlightenment:-
link to gov.scot
It does seem, though, that there is a great deal of information coming our way and there are to be a series of papers to be released This was the statement that was released today:-
Dr Jim says:
15 January, 2018 at 11:42 pm
@Heedtracker
The UN! The UN’s not worth a fudge really. Look at how the Bush/Blair gulf wars were entirely ilegal and yet. Imagine a Labour goon show back in power, the hope, dashed again by another clusterfuck of red tories.
Anyhoo, things getting even tighter for the grand ol teamGB zone. The GrAuN’s clearly been overrun by tory nutters too, from ghastly new masthead, to their scotland section.
Jump in UKOK anywhere really,
link to archive.is
Theresa May has been hit with a double Brexit blow as the EU toughened up its terms for a transition period and Norway privately warned Brussels that giving in to the UK’s demands for a “special” trade deal could force it to rip up its own agreements with the bloc.
France is fighting off attempts by Luxembourg, among other countries, to allow UK-based financial services a “backdoor” to single market access post-Brexit by allowing City of London firms to gain so-called “passporting” rights through continental shell companies allowing real operations to continue in the UK. The internal row is viewed by EU officials as a precursor to a more divisive debate within the 27 over what to offer London on financial services, with senior officials warning that, as it stands, the EU will “not go very far”
Not seen any of this on the beeb Scotland gimp network though. Apparently its all the SNP’s fault, isnt that right Colin A:D
ScottieDog,
I offer my deepest sympathy for your great loss, I hope you and your family find comfort in the memories that you all carry with you. Peace and Love to you all.
I also thank you for your very personal and sensitive post and the praise that you give to our much maligned Scottish Health Service.
My Heart is in My Words
@
David Caledonia says:
15 January, 2018 at 1:08 pm
Geeo
” … do you think every time we vote for the SNP it means we allow them to do as they want, and not as we demand of them.”
Utter pish! david, for, in the first place the SNP Hecht heid ains cannot do as they please for the SNP to change party policies can only be done via National Conference where delegates from/of all local branches and Constituency Associations propose, debate, amend and vote upon such matters and the Hecht heid ains have each only one vote like every other card carrying member.
In any case yous seem utterly ignorant of how the EU works and follow the Westminster Establishment and their controlled media’s mantra of EU baaaad! In the first place the EU parliament cannot force and member state to do anything in particular for every member state has a veto of EU decisions and it only takes one member state to veto anything for it to fail to be passed.
For example the UK has never adopted the Euro but numpties like you still claim that Scotland, is she became an independent member state, would have to adopt the Euro. Another state that has never adopted the Euro is Sweden and Sweden was a founder member state. The EU isn’t perfect – but what is? It has a damned site more good things about it than bad things but we haven’t all sopped up the Unionist propaganda like you have.
Please change your name to wings over twitter, that would be cool.
@David Caledonia says: 15 January, 2018 at 1:13 pm:
”
And btw Geeo, when we get our independence we will be out of europe anyway, cause we would be a new country that needs to apply to get in.”
More Unionist propaganda, David, you’re full of it and I don’t mean propaganda.
Scotland is not just a country – Scotland is also a Kingdom and, in case you hadn’t noticed, the Member State is titled, “The United Kingdom”, that is it is not a country it is a Kingdom comprised of only two, equally legally sovereign partner Kingdoms. Westminster is not legally the parliament of a country and certainly not the parliament of the country of England nor the parliament of the Kingdom of England.
Thus The Kingdom of Scotland has equal legal right to remain in the EU and furthermore there are no EU rules, laws or legal mechanisms to throw out any EU citizens. All the EU needs do is acknowledge that the United Kingdom is a united Kingdom and the EU Citizens of the Kingdom of Scotland do not want to leave and enforce the EU pledge to care for and protect EU citizens.
Can you quote any EU law or regulation that could be used to expel any EU citizen against their will. Their charter specifically pledges to protect EU citizens and citizenship.
To the extent that any EU citizen who is in a foreign country can call upon any EU members state’s embassy for assistance.
Thanks to the many people who make such positive contributions (such as links) to this site (latterly Boris 9:51pm and Phronesis 10:07pm). Too bad there doesn’t seem to be an equivalent site for English people to access, as it would be a real eyeopener for them. Help to clarify what’s happening in their country.
Westminster botchups are coming home to roost now, and that’s pre-full impact Brexit, from Carillion to the NHS, Education, Police, Prison Service, MoD and so on. In fact there’s hardly an area now in England that hasn’t been irrevocably tainted / decimated by the narcissists at Westminster leaving England looking as though it’s ready to implode in the very near future. Sincerely not what we want to see happen of course.
However while this goes on sit tight and have faith in Nicola Sturgeon, as I’m positive that a great deal is going on behind the scenes. I’m also sure that she’s well aware of how we can hold a referendum, remain in the EU, or if need be EFTA initially, and is totally conversant with issues relating to Scottish sovereignty and so on. One thing for sure is that there’s absolutely no one on here who’s more knowledgable in relation to any of these issues than she is. No one on here who has access to a vast array of experts than she does.
Anyway all we have to do now is keep posting informative data on here (and elsewhere), spread the word in public places, make formal complaints re. the media, write into newspapers, attend the marches, support the SNP / the National, donate to this site, the SNP and any other pro-Independence sites of your choosing. And then hopefully crowdfund a massive amount of money on here followed by delivering Stu’s ‘publications’. Not a lot to ask for if you have the physical ability / financial capacity to do so. Not exactly putting ourselves in the position of being hung, drawn and quartered.
This IS it folks. We’re close to the finishing line now after 300 plus years. Let’s get support over 50% ASAP to give Nicola the boost that she’s waiting for. She’s been working HER butt off for us. Now it’s OUR turn to up the ante.
David Caledonia says: 15 January, 2018 at 1:54 pm
“It was a UK vote, not a scottish vote , if anyone cannot come to terms with that simple fact, then all i can say is…. get used to it.”
Claptrap, David, and you know it.
Repeat after me, “The initials, “UK”, stand for, “United Kingdom”.
Ergo it is a bipartite union of two equally sovereign KINGDOMS”. England is a Kingdom but it contains three countries and none of them are either the country or the kingdom of Scotland.
The union is a bipartite union i.e. it is composed of ONLY two Kingdoms. It is NOT a COUNTRY. What is more being a bipartite, (you know what bipartite means, don’t you David?
So there one and only document that agreed to form a United Kingdom is the Treaty of Union, (the acts of union were specific to each individual kingdom and legally both kingdom’s parliaments were wound up. Strangely enough the Kingdom of Scotland’s parliament never actually legally ended – it was formally prorogued – but the English parliament has had no one elected to the parliament of England since the last day of April 1707.
If the legally sovereign people of Scotland vote to end the Treaty of Union the Union is legally over. Yer a bletherskite David.
@Petra
Loved your wonderfully positive post.
@ScottieDog
Sad to hear of the loss of your mum. Best wishes.
ScottieDog @ 23:50,
I just want to add my condolences to you and your family on the loss of your mum. It doesn’t matter what age a parent may be, on their passing they always leave a big hole in your life. It’s a feeling that you never come to like, but one that you do eventually come to appreciate.
Glad to hear though yet another example of how real-life personal experiences confound the media travesties.
Great post “ Petra@0117 “ Yes our wonderful First Minister is “ staying cool” as the Brexit fiasco intensified at Westminster. She is undoubtedly aware of “ the nest of vipers” ready to strike if she puts one foot wrong.The biggest danger might be from “ the Britnat Labour Party” ( the establishment “ reserve government” ) who will be called upon if May and her “ right wing Junta” fail in their quest for a “ hard Brexit”. She might well “ lose face in the HOC “ if she loses a crucial Brexit vote . Corbyn continues to “ sit on the fence” knowing that he will only get the keys to Downing st. if he “ does the establishment’s bidding” . When the time is right for him he will know what do do to prevent the ultimate catastrophe for Westminster ( Scottish Independence), and he might be their “ last card” in this high stakes political drama. Any Brexit or even no brexit will be “ fine& dandy “ for the Britnat establishment , the proviso being that Scotland “ remains shackled” AT ANY COST. Yes Petra we are “ close to the finishing line now” our wonderful First Minister deserves all the support we can muster over these forthcoming crucial months . Let each and every one of us get right behind her and trust in her judgement. She deserves no less for the sacrifices she has made and continues to make for the people of Scotland . We should be eternally grateful.
Something else to keep in mind. The “Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union” is NOT THE SAME as the “Treaty on European Union” – both are part of the Lisbon Treaty.
link to lisbon-treaty.org
There are unionists – and others – have used the first of these to say that there is no Article 50 allowing a member state to leave after 1st April 2017 which is why May had to invoke Article 50 before 31st March 2017. That is simply not true.
“Consolidated version of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union:”
link to eur-lex.europa.eu
but
“Consolidated version of the Treaty on European Union”
link to eur-lex.europa.eu
Just one letter different in the URL.
Just a wee aside, I’m based in the middle east working for an international outfit with head office in Switzerland. Recently a work colleague visited our head office and was asking what folk thought about Brexit.
The reaction was blank stares, “oh that! we don’t really follow what’s going on there”.
Strange attitude for a company which operates all over the world including the UK.
Maybe WM have overestimated their impact?
When Mike Russell spoke about ‘differentiation’ at yesterday’s press conference, I am sure he said the EU was drafting new laws on this. No one picked up on it. Differentiation is the same as bespoke. The UK government wants a bespoke deal with the EU for Northern Ireland, and the City of London. He also said planning a ‘framework’ for the devolved powers the EU had responsibility for, was difficult because these new EU laws could mean Scotland having the same deal as Northern Ireland.
I remember David Cameron in one of his last, if not his last, PMQT saying in reply to a question from the SNP that he could not see why Scotland could not be a member of BOTH the UK and the EU. Can Scotland have sovereignty and also be part of the UK and the EU?
A lot is made of the government in Westminster not having a scooby doo about Brexit, of Brussels negotiators playing hardball, and of Holyrood not passing a legal consent motion. But, if the opposite is true and they are all following the same roadmap, it suggests Article 50 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union is a key to unlocking the barriers to the internal enlargement of the EU.
@mr thms
Article 50 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union is about “freedom of establishment”, it’s not the Article 50 in the Treaty on European Union that the UK invoked to leave the EU?
Brexit
Tory minister confirms uk citizens will lose rights and protection on leaving eu
link to archive.is
Norway will not accept uk getting norway plus or similar deal and will renegotiate their deal with EU
link to archive.is
LINKS! lovely links from a lovely LADY:
link to businessforscotland.com
deliberately-withholding-impact-information/
link to scottovoce.wordpress.com
link to itisintruthnotforglory.wordpress.com
A Scottish Government Challenge on Brexit: How will it impact on UK debate? link to scer.scot
LINKS!
link to farminguk.com
Scottish-economy-and-farming-analysis-shows_48359.html
link to terryentoure.blogspot.co.uk
Shell to build first North Sea installation in 30 years: link to archive.is
Mundell is caught knitting on the job;
Deidre Brock: Mundell is caught knitting on the job: link to archive.is
LINKS!
link to autonomyscotland.org
EU toughens stance for Brexit transition talks: link to ft.com
The most important Brexit detail you’ve never heard of
link to archive.is
link to politics.co.uk
LINKS!
https://www.irishnews.com/news/2018/01/15/news/analysis-has-the-penny-finally-dropped-for-the-dup–1232010/
British supermarket chickens show record levels of antibiotic-resistant superbugs
link to archive.is
600 nurses from the Philippines to be recruited in a bid to fill Northern Ireland gap
link to archive.is
link to politicalscrapbook.net
LINKS!
link to novaramedia.com
link to tompride.wordpress.com
link to aljazeera.com
link to amnesty.org.uk
That’s all Folks: Remember;
It is possible for a single person to engage in an act of resistance against oppression and change the world.
Have a Peaceful and Productive Day, Wingers.
🙂
Great links, Smallaxe. The cat will have to wait for his breakfast.
Thanks, Dan,
Remember to put something in the Kitty later.
😉
#yesindyref2 @ 6.32am
Thank you for pointing that out.
Was it Tony Blair’s idea to make The Treaty of Lisbon confusing?
It worked..
The Treaty renamed and amended the Treaty of Maastricht and the Treaty of Rome.
So it would make more sense for me to have said..
‘But, if the opposite is true and they are all following the same roadmap it suggests Article 50 and the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union is a key to unlocking the barriers to internal enlargement of the EU’
My point was about ‘differentiation’ or a ‘bespoke deal’.
For that to happen the EU would have to amend the Treaty of Rome.
All the best
ps. This is the EU funded report on how the internal enlargement of the EU can be achieved.
link to ideasforeurope.eu
@Smallaxe says: “LINKS!”
A bit discriminatory against sausage slice, is it not?
As the great Mrs Slocombe once said, “If my pussy isn’t attended to by eight o’clock, I shall be strokin’ it for the rest of the evening.”
Better go now. Have a good day, Smallaxe.
@Smallaxe
Great links. Many thanks.
ScottieDog
Not often posts on Wings reduce me to tears, but yours did.
Sympathy and condolences
Unlike a few posters here I don’t think Scotland is a “special case”
I don’t think the world will bend over to change all the rules and invent new mechanisms just for us. British Exceptionalism in a kilt is not convincing.
We are just a medium sized European nation that will have to work with the existing structures and rules. That’s what we want, isn’t it: just to be a normal country.
If we live in a fantasy world Project Fear2 will tear that apart.
Let’s not do that
Incidentally – where Norway is at, in their words
link to regjeringen.no
Yesindyref2,
Just for you;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UiF–zD3Is&ab_channel=Hutchie2112
I’m all for equal opperchancities
🙂
Macart,
Thank you, my friend, for the great work you do on WGD and elsewhere.
Nana sends her love.
🙂
Hi Smallaxe.
Thank you for providing the LINKS from the LADY.
Having them with coffee now.
Enjoy the rest of your day.
Hi, Baldeagle58,
Our pleasure, have a great day.
🙂
Thanks for your messages folks. Much appreciated xx :’
Hopefully people have decided that drawing isolationist caricatures is really best done by the likes of Chris Cairns. In turn, I’ll try to avoid telling people to clear off and form the John Lennon Party. But the bespectacled one did wisely remark that “Life is what happens when you’re making plans” and ScottieDog’s post is evidence of that on a personal level. Condolences.
I think that the lead story from the dreaded Guardian (linked to further up the thread) is evidence of the same thing on a political level. I think that all of us, wherever we stand on the EU spectrum, are liable to be pitched a few curved balls over the next couple of years. So the essence of the story is that Norway is unhappy about the UK getting a special deal — I wonder if they said anything about the Canada Deal?
Tin Hats required as Call Kaye invites dog whistle calls on immigration from 9 am.
Phone 0500 92 95 00
Sms 80295
Email morningcallscotland@bbc.co.uk
PictAtRandom says:
“Life is what happens when you’re making plans”
John Lennon
“You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.”
“A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality.”
Also, John Lennon
Let’s bring reality to Scotland, Together!
Another gain for tax evading hedge funds (May) a tranfer of £Billions of public funds to the Tories and their associates to the offshore. It is the unionists way. While they kill innocent people the world over including their own citizens. Appalling behaviour fir the crooks and criminals at Westminster. Brexit will impoverish even more people but the Tories – unionists do not care. The total shambles. Labour could have brought May and the Tories down on 12th September 2017 but did not. EVEL.
They are just complicit. An IndyRef2 will sort it out. The Tories – unionist create a shambles wherever they go.what a complete and utter shambles. People are just totally fed up of this. Totally annoyed and angry. Thank goodness for the SNP standing up for Scotland in any case. The only thing bright on the horizon,
It is the unelected Lord Mayor of London turning up in Scotland. Trying to fleece more money out of Scotland to add to the pile of Oil revenues misappropriated for years. Chancer. London S/E voted for full EU membership. They get Brexit trust upon them.
I see reports that Theresa May faces a tougher transition stance from EU amid Norway pressure.
That’s the problem for the British nationalists, they seem to think they can or will get better trading conditions than countries which already have deals with the EU.
o/t
Anyone in North Lanarkshire seen a gritter ?
They are big – Yellow – with flashing lights ,
I remember seeing some in 2016 – for some reason they went missing in 2017 , i expect the tory – labour council sold them to supplement council employees pension pot , or is that being a little cynical ? .
Robert Graham,
O/T
Lest you forget;
😉
Well lasted about 2 mins listening to BBC’s Call Kay.
Big mistake wont be repeated (I just forgot the premise was for pure bias & propaganda)
FM is wrong you see. No need for a study as apparently Scotland does not need immigrants after all. All we needed was a BBC programme get it ??
“Why do we have people on the dole ” ??
“The countries flooded with foreigners” ??
“They steal our jobs” ??
“They get all the houses and all the benefits” ??
Where would we be without the BBC ? Jeez!!!
@mr thms
I didn’t know it until I was checking out to see which articles would need amending just to let the UK out – the preamble and article 72 which mention the UK, and posted that difference as soon as I did know, not long before your posting. And I even did a wee wordpress blog as an EU guide so should have known 🙁 Update needed.
@Smallaxe
Swine (so to speak), now I want a roll and slice.
@ScottieDog
Condolences. I found them very human in both Inverclyde and RAH when my wife was in just 6 weeks ago (very nearly died – emergency operation saved her life).
Yeah, it’s good that our Scottish Government have carried out and now released their own Brexit impact paper. It is the responsible thing to do for the people of Scotland.
It kinda lays down another gauntlet to the Westminster side to
releaseproperly conduct one of their own. Refer to Scotland’s Brexit blueprint.All people of the current United Kingdom, should demand a Westminster Brexit impact paper be provided for all to see, for further dissection and debate.
The gauntlet and example has been laid down once again Prime Minister.
Your move Theresa May (a politician).
Peter McCulloch says:
They believe that because they believe they are special, better than everyone else. The UKOK is different from elsewhere, superior in every way, not like all the continental riff raff. The UK is entitled to get whatever it wants.
In their dreams.
At last they will get their comeuppance, I believe!
I also see the Dutch are warning that they won’t accept any deal which allows the UK’s tax havens to continue. As a member the UK’s tax avoidance has been tolerated, but not once out.
I am thick skinned so abuse is water off a ducks back as far as i am concerned, you make a comment here and some idiot says its the worse post he has ever seen on wings
Well he wants to look at some of the tripe he comes away with if he wants to read some regurgitated dross
Anyway, David Caledonia is no more, no point in having an opinion about anything if there is no blocking facility to stop the trolls on here
Goodbye Mr Campbell, i will stick to sites that are better regulated, this forum is full of so many strange people, its just not worth my time being here, i will stick to the sites that dont allow people to abuse a nationalist of over 40 years
Robert Graham @ 9.31
Naw Robert the’ve no sold them, their keeping them as a Deterrent tae bad weather invoked by Nicola Sturgeon!
@galamcennalath 16 January, 2018 at 10:03 am
I think people in other countries in Europe are beginning to see this same overbearing arrogant attitude of exceptionalism we here in Scotland have endured from the British nationalists.
I grew up hearing them spout about how they had civilised the rest of the World.
Even today there are those who go on about not needing to have to learn to speak a foreign language because everyone should be speaking English.
And they wonder why they are disliked in the rest of the World.
This is worth revisiting from time to time – Andra The Seer delivering his own version of the Treaty of Union, Darian, and sundry other stuff to BBC staff at in-house workshop in April 2012. Brian Taylor did the same gig.
Try keeping a tally of the inexactitudes…
link to youtube.com
@Robert J Sutherland
Without Germany it is possible the EU would fall apart. It is effectively the organization’s linchpin. What Germany does others might well be tempted to imitate. In this case its government seems to be backsliding on pollutants. Interestingly, RWE invited a Chinese delegation to witness how it handled the matter of clearing the site. Very spooky!
I voted, my first time, to stay in the EU. Now, knowing rather more about the organisation I am rather less convinced. The post-war founding fathers of European cooperation would not recognise the EU as theirs. It’s just another tool of freemarket capitalism with all the corruption, cronyism and doublethink that accompanies that allegiance.
I’m in favour of ‘Europe’ but not in this particular manifestation.
We need a totally reformed and renewed EU,
This Just In,
That awful black stuff Again;
link to ukenergy.statoil.com
Worrying, intit?
😉
‘Brexit is a collective English mental breakdown.
English people living on dreams of empire never learned to see others as equals.’
Nicholas Boyle
link to irishtimes.com
It’s just another tool of freemarket capitalism with all the corruption, cronyism and doublethink that accompanies that allegiance.
But you give no examples. Why is that Ottomanboi?
Even that most basic case for the EU, that they’re not going to war with each other, over and over, like what they used to, in the European mainland, with the Brits pilling on when it suited, is that not enough on its own?
EU was and is hated by dudes like Murdoch because they have no control over EU democracy at all.
Here Murdoch and who ever it is that owns the Heil, Express, BBC and ITV gimp networks, do control our haha democracy. EU is totally outwith their tory bullshit.
Aka Call Kaye beeb Scotland gimpery today, I don’t tune in, but all of it will be exactly whatever some faceless tory gimps have decided, for their Scotland region.
But the Danes for example, couldn’t care less what Call Kaye is all about, could they.
Brussels started 2018 with a bold, simple claim: Membership of the European Union is great value because it costs citizens less than a cup of coffee a day.
Politico did the sums, UK is 69 euro cents
link to politico.eu
@Peter McCulloch says: 16 January, 2018 at 9:29 am:
“That’s the problem for the British nationalists, they seem to think they can or will get better trading conditions than countries which already have deals with the EU.”
The brutal reality of Norway’s relationship with the EU is that Norway is essentially just an EU Member state without EU member state voting rights.
Norway pays very close to member state dues to the EU in order to participate like a normal EU member state but has no say whatsoever on how the EU is run and that includes how the EU treats Norway. In effect Norway pays its dues and does as its told. By the way the EU cannot force any member state to adopt any specific EU regulations.
Which is why certain existing, founder, EU Member states still have not adopted the Euro as their currency – like, for example, the UK and Sweden. There are also non-EU member states that have unilaterally opted to adopt the Euro as their currency.
The idea, put about by the Westminster Establishments propaganda Wing, that the EU forces its member states to adopt stupid EU regulations is claptrap. The EU cannot force anything upon its member states because each and every one of those member states has a veto over all EU parliament matters.
i.e. If it has become an EU directive, rule or law then all EU member states must have, collectively, agreed to it by not exercising their right to veto it.
You really shouldn’t believe anything the Westminster propaganda wing tells you. Think things through for yourself.
Note they never tell you about how the EU member state veto works but the truth is the EU can only work by consensus and
BRUKEXIT just boils down to the UK, ( a.k.a Westminster), being unwilling to concede and thus leaving themselves with no other option than to exit the EU without any kind of deal.The EU simply cannot concede special privileges when one member state out of 28 member states wants to have concessions not available to the other 27 member states.
Note the terms consensus, concessions and concede are all related terms but you won’t see Westminster ever use them together when making their pontifications about
BRUKEXIT.There simply cannot be other than a hard
BRUKEXIT and the EU and EC have said as much since day one of theBRUKEXIT began. Remember the oft repeated EU claims, “The UK cannot Cherry Pick any of the EU Freedoms”.Looking for a job?
Try here;
link to parliament.scot
UK net contribution a year £8.6 billion, for population 66 million that’s £130 per citizen a year, that’s 36p a day.
Cheap coffee!
The UKs inflated sense of it’s own importance is simply staggering
Ah heh!
This is good:
Speaking at the European Parliament in Strasbourg, European Council president Donald Tusk said that Europeans’ “hearts are still open” to “our British friends” to remain in the bloc.
“If the UK government sticks to its decision to leave Brexit will become a reality, with all its negative consequences in March next year, unless there is a change of heart among our British friends,” he told MEPs.
EU will demand veto over UK trade deals for two years after Brexit
Quoting the Brexit Secretary, he added: “Wasn’t it David Davis himself who said ‘if a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy’? We here on the continent haven’t had a change of heart – our hearts are still open to you. Thank you.”
Popcorn anyone?
@cearc
Sorry, I read that as euros not cents, hence my calculation!
Off Topic and for anyone who doesn’t follow the splits within the Labour Party.
TODAY.
The Times in England is running this story on it’s Front Page.
The Times in Scotland ditto:
“Moderate [Blairites?] Labour MPs are threatening to quit and sit as independents in the Commons if they are deselected as the left tightens its grip on the party.
Three Momentum-backed candidates, including Jon Lansman, founder of the pro-Corbyn network, were elected to Labour’s influential governing body yesterday.
The leftwingers won the national executive committee (NEC) seats by a landslide, beating moderate and independent candidates including the comedian Eddie Izzard, who came fourth.”
Eddie Izzard came to Scotland in 2014 and alongside Jim Murphy told Scotland we’re Bettertogether with the good old UKOK. 🙁
Dr Jim says:
16 January, 2018 at 11:16 am
The UKs inflated sense of it’s own importance is simply staggering
I take it Dr. Jim that for UK we should read ‘England’?
England has always had an ‘inflated sense of it’s own importance’
Eddie Izzard came to Scotland in 2014 and alongside Jim Murphy told Scotland we’re Bettertogether with the good old UKOK.
Izzard shows us that celebrity is not a winner with the electorate and that is why we have the Lords.
If Eddie keeps hacking away though, there is good chance of a Lord Izzard, whether there’s a PM Corbyn or not.
And then Lord Izzard of Victoria Secretshire, seated next to Lord Darling of Roulanish, Lady Mone of Mayfair etc, will have more say on Scotland’s destiny than any Scot.
in DC defence,
1. scotland is being dragged out of the EU because the UK as a whole voted leave. I’m not happy about it, indeed, it is this which is the basis of the SNP’s argument for indy ref2?
2. The EU has said on many occassions that if an indy scotland wanted to rejoin (or stay) in the EU it would need rejoin via article 49 as a new member. This tact by the EU is probably based on political expediency but i have no doubt that an indy scotlands EU membership application would be automatic should it apply. Nicola’s present position is to remain or rejoin the SM & CU not to remain or rejoin the EU. a difference that corbyn cant seem to get his head round.
as far as I can see, these are the 2 main points made by DC, both are factually correct. The comments made by Wasp/RP/geeo are undignified and could be considered abuse.
the only point i took umbridge with DC was his re-interpretation of why people vote SNP/remain.since this includes me, your comment appears to be telling me what I think??
I dont know if DC is a troll, i havent read any of his previous comments, (i read wos less and less these days because of this sort of shit) even if he is, such abuse isnt the answer.
I is these leave/yes voters we need to convince, they are the yes groups target demographic. we need them to win indyref2
@ Sinky says at 9:03 am …. ”Tin Hats required as Call Kaye invites dog whistle calls on immigration from 9 am.
Phone 0500 92 95 00
Sms 80295
Email morningcallscotland [at] bbc [dot] co [dot] uk
……………………………………….
Immigration? This is of course THE number one issue that Nicola Sturgeon will have to clarify in great detail … if she is allowed to, especially as Curtice’s poll showed that over 60% of Scots want immigration to be dealt with along Westminster lines. Nicola touched on one of Westminster’s week points yesterday when she mentioned that Westminster has had the powers at their disposal to limit immigration which they have simply not bothered to use.
link to huffingtonpost.co.uk
I don’t tune in to Kaye Adams propaganda programme but I wonder if she mentioned that EU ‘vacancies’ will be filled by non-EU citizens such as from Commonwealth countries (note that few nurses head our way from Oz, US or Scandanavian countries etc), as per the latest news from N Ireland ….
“‘Through that programme we are hoping to recruit 622 nurses, mainly from the Philippines, with some from India, by 2020.
“We have a history with the Philippines, and to a lesser extent India, from the last shortage around 2000,” Professor McArdle said.’
‘600 nurses from the Philippines to be recruited in a bid to fill Northern Ireland gap.’
link to archive.is
……………………………………
@ ronnie anderson says at 6:11 pm ….. ”Petra this will be the next big lie they try & sell to the Scottish People. Baxter was interviewed last week on tv, he’s a payed for opinionist that doesn’t care for his peers opinions. Yoon Mentality & if this is looked at with more scrutiny we will see who his paymasters are ( Oil Gas Companies ) who would save millions in decommissioning costs.”
I know Ronnie they must think that we all came up the Clyde on a bike. I notice too that there’s no mention of the price of oil rising on BBC / STV news. The only ‘oil’ news that we hear of relates to decommissioning which has led to the ”wiv nae ile left” myth.
They, the Unionist media, are having diarrhoea in other words (oil price rise in lead up to Indyref2) to the point that they are now advocating that we stop using fossil fuels altogether and move on.
What we all need to do now is contact the BBC / STV (etc) and ask why they are suppressing crucial information from the Scots.
Oh and to add to my last post …
link to brexit853.wordpress.com
@Heedtracker
The existence of the European Union was not enough to prevent wars in former Yougoslavia whose breakup was seemingly encouraged by Germany. The Americans got involved in that, they bombed Belgrade. It did nothing to prevent war in Ukraine or resolve the Cyprus problem and the Turkish question still remains on hold. it has been wrong footed by the Catalan referendum and has not even been able to sort the Flemish v French interface. What it would make of Scottish independence is anyone’s guess.
As to corruption the most corrupt EU state Bulgaria will be taking the next presidency but not much noise about that issue from Brussels. But then Bulgaria plays ‘the game’. Poland and Hungary do not so they get slapped down.
Btw. the EU via UK and France was involved in Libya; a mess that may take generations to resolve.
EU states were involved also in Iraq.
The EU often appears like an American puppet. That certainly was not the idea behind the concept of European integration, was it?
Toboggan time again 🙂
Ouuuuuiiiii!
@Robert Peffers
16 January, 2018 at 11:06 am
You are right what you say.
But how often do you hear them hark back to
WW11
I can almost see the British nationalists simmering
resentment towards the Europeans for being so
ungrateful to England for fighting a war and
freeing Europe from Nazi occupation.
Ye hud us at…
“I am thick…”
Nothing further need read.
@Cat
from his postings there’s this you get from those who put getting out of the EU as a higher priority than Independence: “Get out of the toxic european union, then out of the toxic UK union”
then these are things you always hear from unionists:
“it was in fact a UK wide vote not a scottish one” which tries to decry our 62% Remain vote, a solid reason for Indy Ref 2.
“when we get our independence we will be out of europe anyway, cause we would be a new country that needs to apply to get in” which denies the possibility of a transition allowed by the EU while we formally apply, as mooted by Kirsty Hughes, the director of the Scottish Centre on European Relations.
“Has our vote kept us in the european union, our vote does not matter one way or the other, to say scotland voted to stay in the european union is simply denying the reality of the situation” so our vote in Scotland is not important, it’s irrelevant, it’s what the UK wants that’s important.
House! as they say in Bingo 🙂
yesindyref2,
You’re thinking ahead.
69 euro cents = 36p. That’s next years exchange rate!
From Rev’s twitter, Alan Ferrier highlighted this…absolutely nails Brexit from English perspective. I’m not archiving the Irish Times, the more clicks they get the better:
‘For the English the United Kingdom occupies the psychic space once filled by the empire. Haunted by their unassimilated imperial past, the English continue refusing to think of themselves as a nation in the same sense as Scotland or Ireland and maintain a constitution for their United Kingdom which denies the obvious. Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland all have their variously titled national assemblies, but England has none – not out of modesty, but in order to claim for itself the exceptional position of anonymous master of its now diminutive empire.
The EU challenged England not to give up a national identity, but to acquire one – to give up the illusions embodied in a United Kingdom that never was a nation, but was always a device to conceal England’s colonial relation to the other nations inhabiting Great Britain and Ireland. Instead the EU offered England the opportunity for equal partnership in a common endeavour, which is nowadays all that nationhood can mean.
On June 23rd, 2016, the English rejected that offer and opted to continue living the fiction of splendid isolation that sustained the UK and the British empire before it, and to continue denying the Scots and the Irish a will of their own. Any recovery from this collective mental breakdown will involve treating it in the light of its deep historical causes. Not until there is a separate English parliament, giving England at last the distinctive political identity it has shunned for 300 years, will the delusions that led the country to Brexit finally be dissipated by contact with reality. Perhaps then, with their psychosis healed, the English will apply to rejoin the EU.’
link to irishtimes.com
schrodingers cat @ 12:37:
You keep re-iterating this falsehood, but it’s NOT TRUE. Nicola has made it clear on several occasions when asked directly that full EU membership remains her and the SNP’s policy. (She is currently trying to keep a Brexiteering UK as a whole in the SM/CU, but that’s not the same thing at all, as someone as well-informed as you must surely know.) The facts are there and it couldn’t be clearer, so I can only wonder why you keep trying to muddy the waters by repeatedly projecting your own evident preference onto others who manifestly don’t agree with it.
Speak for yourself, sir, don’t put words into the mouths of others.
schrodingers cat @ 12:37:
No it’s damn well not. This is the stupidest part of your whole case. A plain case of a general fighting the last war instead of the latest one.
There is a fraction of the yes/leave that will never come back, because they’ve been captured by the anti-immigrant argument of Brexit. As Nicola has made clear (see The National today, for example), she is in favour of freedom of movement. Well, you have to be in favour to stay in the SM/CU. So how are you possibly going to get these anti-immigrant votes back, FGS? It’s so obviously contrary to reason.
The yes/leavers who see clearly that independence is the only viable way forward will continue to vote yes regardless, despite their EU scepticism. Many are now changing their minds anyway, as the Leaver smokescreen of rampant lies begins to fade under the bright glare of reality and tangible facts. Why concede anything right now when people are steadily changing their minds the other way anyway?
Then there’s the demographic of Remain. 62% in the EURef, 68% at the last poll. That’s the obvious majority demographic we must claim in order to go forward, and we won’t do it by punting Brexit-Lite, as you seem to blithely assume. Why ever would they?
Looking backward is just plain perverse. We need to look forward for productive gains.
@RJS
The irony is that Sturgeon is actualy playing an absolutely straight game, while it being a very crafty one at the same time. Hence the indignation of Ruth Davidson calling the latest paper a sham, and the unionists trying to say it’s all about “separation”.
Well it isn’t all about seperation, the word independence isn;t mentioned even once, and referendum only in the conterxt of the EU referendum, while at the same time it is, and that has the unionists choking on their outflanked empire biscuits. We’re going to need more glasses of water – or the NHS for them 🙂
Laugh? There are tear furrows down my cheeks!
yesindyref2
““An independent Scotland would have to go through the accession process, so it would not be automatic,” said Fabian Zuleeg, the chief executive of the European Policy Centre thinktank. “As Scotland does largely fulfil the [membership] criteria it would be a relatively smooth process.”
xmlns=”http://www.w3.org/2000/svg”> Theresa May’s refusal to give an inch has forced Sturgeon’s hand
Ruth Wishart
Read more
He said it was difficult to predict how long accession talks would take, but he would expect “some kind of interim arrangement” while Scotland detached itself from the UK.
Kirsty Hughes, an expert on EU policy based in Edinburgh and a former European commission official, said she and other colleagues believed it would take until about 2022 or 2023 for an independent Scotland to join the EU, even if a referendum was staged before Brexit. Scotland would also have to commit to joining the euro at a later stage. ”
so the eu has said and kirsty agrees, an indyscot would need to rejoin the EU, which is what DC said. a statement of fact, of course we would automatically be fast tracked, no question abut it, but we would still need to re join. I believe this is politically expedient by the EU. nothing more.
“which denies the possibility of a transition allowed by the EU while we formally apply”
if we dont vote yes in indyref2 before next spring, we will be out of the EU along with the rUK, with whatever deal theresa hatches for the UK. whatever that is. once we vote yes, a transition deal(efta/eea or eu membership) for an indyscotland is almost certain, but the reality of what happens after we vote yes is different from the reality that is the indyref2 campaign.
““Has our vote kept us in the european union, our vote does not matter one way or the other, to say scotland voted to stay in the european union is simply denying the reality of the situation” so our vote in Scotland is not important, it’s irrelevant, it’s what the UK wants that’s important.”
unfortunately dads, while we remain in the UK, this is exactly the case, and it will remain so until we vote yes to indy. A sad truth but a truth none the less.
” these are things you always hear from unionists:” aye, agreed dads, but 55% voted no, so we need some of these unionists to change. the point i was making. DC maybe a troll, i dunno, i havent read any of his previous posts, but more folk read wos than comment, abusing others isnt comment. its abuse and unproductive. Especially as he is only voicing his opinion as to how things are. ie at the moment scotland is leaving the EU whether they like it or not.
rjs
nicola has taken indyref2 off the table until we know what brexit actually means. How can she tie indyref2 to efta/eea or eu membership if the the HOC then votes to reject the negotiations and reject brexit??
once we know, and brexit is as bad as we fear, then nicola with put indyref2 back on the table. she will tie it to full eu membership or efta/eea membership with the question of re joining the eu, with the eu question being decided after by an indy scotland.
she will chose whichever is most likely to win a yes vote in indyref2, without which all theses issues will be irrelevant.
I has nothing to do with the snps desire to rejoin the eu.
“No it’s damn well not. This is the stupidest part of your whole case. A plain case of a general fighting the last war instead of the latest one.
There is a fraction of the yes/leave that will never come back,”
the poll stu did last year showed 13% of yes2nos because of brexit. the one he did at christmas showed this figure down to 9%.
thats why support for yes has risen from 46 to 49%
55% voted no, some will never vote yes but not all,
@cat
I don’t know why you quote someone saying what Kirsty Hughes said when you could quote her herself, which is quite different from what you’re saying – i.e no transition, same as DC:
“So the UK would by 2022 move into its new free trade deal with the EU27 while Scotland — if it was independent by then — could remain in the bespoke standstill deal. In effect, it’s the old idea of a ‘holding pen’ in a new form. Scotland might, in such a scenario, stay in the standstill transition perhaps joining the EU in 2024 or 2025.”
link to thenational.scot
Do you see that cat?
“Scotland might, in such a scenario, stay in the standstill transition“
@cat to RJS
“once we know, and brexit is as bad as we fear, then nicola with put indyref2 back on the table”
No, that’s not what she’s saying, she’s saying she’ll make the decision when the terms of the deal are known which would mean a Ref BEFORE Brexit itself, NOT when we know Brexit is as bad as we fear which implies AFTER Brexit has happened.
schrodingers cat @ 15:08,
That first sentence you wrote is true. The Brexit thing is still in a state of flux, entirely due to the ineptitude and indecision of the Tory UKGov, it must be added.
Which is why a firm declaration for IR2 itself is not possible right now, since it does depend on events. But it is possible (indeed, essential) to signal clearly a direction of travel, and Nicola has done that, the latest being her public committment to keeping EU citizens here. (Only possible to implement though, note, if we have the sovereign power to do so.)
It is highly unlikely however that some kind of UK Brexit will not happen, and there is a higher chance even than I had previously credited that it will be a full crashout. EEA/EFTA very unlikely, since no SM/CU wanted either by “weak and unstable” May or cowardly Corbyn. Far more likely a very humbling (for the UK) eventual “Canada deal” with only minor tinkering around the edges.
Anyhoo, that exit – if we let it happen – will cost us dear however you work it out. In reality there is no “soft” Brexit. But there certainly has to be a major diff between “us” and “them” (UK) that is commensurate with the EURef result in Scotland, otherwise no mandate and no credible offer for indy. A complete bust, in other words.
Your presumption that there is a return of yes/leavers isn’t proven – it could just as easily be a crossover – but even if it was, that would merely substantiate my point that people are slowly getting wise to the Leaver shyste. Including former Leavers. And that’s despite the heavy-duty BritNat “togetherness” agenda being punted by the media and no IR2 yet in prospect.
We can’t possibly hope to win by simply aiming to recover what we had back in 2014. That’s futile. We have to gain new converts. I would have thought that’s fairly obvious.
Trying to win by hoping somehow to appease the small minority most alienated by a free movement strategy, while totally taking for granted the vast majority wishing to preserve the status quo, seems doomed to fail. I don’t believe that’s the SG strategy at all.
In fairness Kirsty Hughes is getting quite irate because the SG aren’t pushing for Indy Ref 2, nor are they pushing for the UK not to Brexit she thinks (though the SNP did ask for cross-party talks on it).
I’m not convinced a lot of people know exactly what’s going on, which is of course perfectly splendid for the cause of Independence, and gathering support.
yesindyref2 @ 16:06,
Yes, thanks for making that point.
Which is why the “we’ll be out anyway” argument is specious. The timing has to be right, IR2 before 29.March.2019 so that we can negotiate a holding position with the EU in our own right while we’re still on the inside yet finally free from London interference.
Otherwise we’ve missed the bus, everyone will just shrug their shoulders, sigh and say “oh well, done is done”, and the BritNats will have a full-on “shut up and back in the box” crowfest.
It seems there are still people around who, for one reason or another, still don’t seem to appreciate the super-criticality of this, the Big Year, and the necessary timing for getting IR2 on the road.
@David Caledonia says:16 January, 2018 at 10:15 am:
” … i will stick to the sites that dont allow people to abuse a nationalist of over 40 years.”
Try the Herald, David, it seems rather more tolerant to, “nationalists of over 40 years”, as long as they are of the Britnat type.
Scots nationalists tend to know that Scotland is one of the oldest countries/kingdoms in Europe and is older than the country and the kingdom of England by some considerable margin.
Modern Scots nationalists tend to believe in the fact, which our Scottish history shows as true, we tend to not be taken over by invading foreign forces we absorb them.
indyref2
she’ll make the decision when the terms of the deal are known which would mean a Ref BEFORE Brexit itself, NOT when we know Brexit is as bad as we fear which implies AFTER Brexit has happened.
—————
i understand this, but until at least autumn this year we wont know for sure the conditions. even then, the HOC still has to vote on them as do all other eu nations. it is only at that point that we will actually know what brexit means. this is going to leave nicola a very short time to make the call, personally, i’m hoping that the beurocracy causes a 6 month extension thus giving us time to announce & campaign 4 indyref2. if not, we may be looking at an indyref2 just after the uk leaves in spring 2019. (eu legislation and rulings may be absent after this time???)
there are too many variables outwith our control Dads, eg, efta/eea or eu membership? we dont even know for sure whether we will be campaigning to remain or re join??
whether nicola ties a yes vote to eu or efta/eea membership with the issue delayed until after we are indy is not a call she can or needs to make today, but she will do very soon. no doubt it is a topic for discussion around the table of the high heid yins of the snp, but it is the events of the next few months, opinion polls, consensus of opinion and perhaps even gut feeling which will settle the issue. I think efta/eea membership is the way to go….. for the moment, however, regardless of what she finally decides, i will abide by her decision and campaign for yes
I will re iterate what I said before, if we vote yes , then we are in a totally different universe. this was also true in 2014.
until then we need to focus our efforts on indyref2 upon the ground we are standing, eg, WM will find a spanish mep who will say no chance for an indy scotland vis a vis the eu ever. fact. the much vaunted UK single market will be done to death. brexit won the eu ref by printing a few random numbers on the side of a bus, photoshopping syrian refugees as eu citizens on to a poster and a 2 page manifesto.
BT2 are not going to get anymore sophisticated than that, they will keep it simple.
schrodingers cat @ 18:51,
We will have to know by Sep.2018 because the EU27 will have to have something to sign off then. There could be a bilateral agreement to delay, I suppose, though I find it hard to see either side having much interest in that. The Brexiteers are impatient to get out and the EU are already showing signs of finding Brexit all too much of a tiresome waste of time, and have other more important matters to be getting on with.
All this other stuff is just distractive white noise. In your following posting at 19:05 you seem to envisage a BT2 campaign that’s both simple and effective, yet we have somehow to be drowned in all this confusing “maybe EFTA, maybe EEA, maybe EU, maybe whatever… that will take ages and ages anyway to sort out…” verbiage.
Which all sounds far too reactive and defeatist to me.
As I’ve said already, all we actually need is a clear goal to be aiming for, one of our own choosing, that will carry conviction. Not least because it’s coming from people who themselves have clarity of vision and inner conviction.
I believe the SG do have that in them.
Playing our own game, not someone else’s.
Not back, just putting the record straight, i have never read or bought the Herald, i never buy any paper, and have not done so for many years, that clown is one of the reasons i have given up on a fair hearing here.
Schrodingers cat, i would like to thank you for your comments about my post, its appreciated i can assure you, i don’t know what i said that you did not agree with concerning one other matter, but i will apologise if maybe it did not come across as it was in my mind, but that could simply be down to the written word, as sometimes it does not translate to well
Schrodinger, i can assure you i am not a troll or a unionist, as has been said on here many times by people who do not even begin to know the person i am, i have only ever voted SNP, and i have never voted for any unionist party, but stating that fact does not seem to compute with some people here, maybe people need to look at who the real trolls are on wings, because abusing a nationalist of over 40 years makes you think a bit about who are behind the names that are giving out the abuse, are they late comers to the cause of independence or are they something more, like people who just argue and abuse cause they have nothing better to do in their lives
The thing about other sites is this, other sites would ban them for their abusive language, they would be warned first with many sites, but lots just ban them straight away as the terms are there when you join
Wings for me was ok, until my comments became the target of personal abuse, i allways tried to keep my comments as short as possible, cause i don’t want people to just pass by because of a long winded regurgitated post that they would probably have read elsewhere many times before, i have not read anything of political interest to me on wings that i have not read or been aware of for many years, that is not the fault of the writers as maybe they are a lot younger than me, after all, i don’t need some 30 year old telling me about the battle trafalgar as if its news to me, i read about the battle of trafalgar years before they where even born
There is an old scottish saying, don’t try and tell your granny how to suck eggs
Goodbye….. Granny Caledonia ( the last post )
No one ‘abused’ you, you are so narcissistic David, it really isn’t all about you and being ‘a nationalist for over 40 years’.
You can’t handle swear words and you seem to equate that with ‘abuse’. You are very judgemental of everyone on here and it doesn’t matter if and when people correct you on your ‘false’ outlook or wrong headedness on political matters, you just go in a huff.
I find it odd, this 40 year thing you constantly talk about as if it signifies ‘superiority’ or some such state that you think this amount of years affords you?
It doesn’t stand as an excuse for ignorance and dare I say somewhat bigoted views David and it is that you have been taken to task over, it is that, that you have never honestly responded to in any way, instead behaving like a child and blaming everyone else for your lack of understanding.
You need to look at your attitudes, not continually attack others on a swear word and make it all about them using a word you don’t like and calling that ‘abuse’.
I think you are correct though to take yourself off of Wings, I think the ‘debating’ aspect is lost on you. I hope you find other places to talk with people who share your outlook and I also hope you take a look at some of the actual stuff that you yourself have written and try to view that from the point of view of others who do not share your outlook?
Good luck tae ye.
K1
Respect matters, if you can’t see why it matters then i really do feel you have missed the point of anything i have said.
Why you wish me all the best after what you said about me does not make any sense at all, sometimes its better to just refrain from having an opinion on sites like this, as for me saying i am 40 years an SNP voter, that’s a fact, its not been said to make out i am better than anyone else, so that comment by you is meaningless as it implies that that is how i think of myself, and is untrue and unfair, you like a few others on wings keep telling me what i am. that’s quite a trick when i have never met any of you, and to be honest, i like it that way, looking down on people with your assumptions is not a nice trait to have
This is the last goodbye, i am busy elsewhere most of the time, i will look in every few months or so, but there will be no more contributions on this site from me, i am done with it, and i think a few contributers will follow me out if they are treated in the same manner as i have been, lets me honest, sometimes we cut our losses and move on