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So it turns out we’re Unionists

Posted on June 04, 2014 by

After some nudging from us, YouGov have now slightly belatedly added the data tables and question text from their recent “Better Together”-commissioned poll on benefits and tax receipts to their website.

Strangely, none of the media reports of the poll mentioned the fact that in addition to quizzing Scots, the company asked the same set of questions* to full-sized samples of English and Welsh voters too. (Indeed, the samples for England and Wales were both bigger – 1051 Scots were polled, 1116 Welsh people and 1744 English.)

proms

We don’t know why nobody cares about the opinion of the Northern Irish. But the data highlighted some interesting discrepancies, and one very surprising thing.

The first part of the poll presented respondents with some social-attitudes propositions about what they thought the responsibilities of a government were. The findings showed that perhaps the constituent nations of the UK are slightly less united than “Better Together” may have hoped.

Do you agree or disagree with the following statements?

– It should be the government’s responsibility to provide a decent standard of living for older people.

Scottish respondents: +84 (Agree 90, Disagree 6)
Welsh respondents: +84
English respondents: +73

Gap from highest to lowest answers: 11 points

– It should be the government’s responsibility to provide health care for the sick through the NHS.

Scottish: +93
Welsh: +95
English: +81

Gap from highest to lowest answers: 14 points

– The NHS should be free at the point of use rather than based on ability to pay. (Second reference to a non-existent single NHS – perhaps why Northern Ireland, which has a totally different healthcare service, was excluded.)

Scottish: +85
Welsh: +85
English: +81

Gap from highest to lowest answers: 4 points

– Should the old age pension always be the same throughout the UK, or is it OK to be different? (“Better Together” showing their usual brilliant grasp of syntax here. You can’t “agree or disagree” with a question, dummies. “Would you like coffee or would you prefer tea?” “I agree.”)

Scottish: +64 (“same” 79, “different” 15)
Welsh: +68
English: +57

Gap from highest to lowest answers: 11 points

– Should welfare payments always be the same throughout the UK, or is it OK to be different? (Don’t think we haven’t noticed the subliminal juxtaposition of “UK” and “OK”, incidentally.)

Scottish: +57
Welsh: +56
English: +43

Gap from highest to lowest answers: 14 points

– Should the rate of corporation tax paid by big companies be the same throughout the UK, or is it OK to be different? (What about small ones?)

Scottish: +49
Welsh: +50
English: +53

Gap from highest to lowest answers: 4 points

– Government should redistribute income from those with the most to those with the least. (We’re suddenly back to “agree or disagree” propositions.)

Scottish: +39
Welsh: +26
English: +22

Gap from highest to lowest answers: 17 points

[Regardless of what happens at present… ]** How should we meet the cost of paying the government old age pension to people in [your country]? Should the money to pay this come from the taxes collected across the UK as a whole, or from those collected in [your country] only?

**(The “Regardless of…” prefix was only used in Wales for some reason.)

Scottish: +42 (from UK 66, from Scotland 24)
Welsh: +69
English: +21

Gap from highest to lowest answers: 47 points

– And what about the cost of paying benefits to people in [your country] who lose  their job through no fault of their own be met? Should the money to pay this come from the taxes collected across the UK as a whole, or from those collected in [your country] only?

Scottish: +46 (from UK 69, from Scotland 23)
Welsh: +71
English: +43

Gap from highest to lowest answers: 28 points

So, a slightly inconvenient demonstration of some pretty different social attitudes across three of the four parts of the UK, there. No wonder “Better Together” decided not to tell anyone that they’d polled England and Wales as well as Scotland.

But alert readers, of course, will also have spotted long before now that these questions are all fundamentally massively flawed if you want to use them to prove that people want to stay in the Union.

That’s because they all pre-suppose that the Union is continuing: clearly, if Scotland is independent the rUK isn’t going to pay for its unemployment benefits, so the question would be nonsensical in any other context than Scotland being in the UK.

And as such, we too would probably have given the answers which “Better Together” has trumpeted as evidence of support for the Union, because so long as Scotland is in the UK and not in control of its own economy, then of course it shouldn’t have to fund welfare by itself.

All we’re saying is that readers might wish to ponder the validity and integrity of any sort of survey in which Wings Over Scotland comes out as a supporter of the Union.

.

* Two questions about tax receipts from North Sea oil and the London financial services industry were asked to people in Scotland and England, but not Wales.

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    1. 04 06 14 13:28

      So it turns out we’re Unionists | Scottish Independence News

    2. 09 06 14 19:47

      #IndyRef Weekly Review: Bias in the BBC and Lies from Better Together | National Collective

    109 to “So it turns out we’re Unionists”

    1. donald anderson says:

      The Jelly Bean has just telt the English that they will have to pay 5p for plastic bags.

      Does that mean there will be flood of English refugees over the Border to get our freebies?

    2. Alasdair says:

      I did this YouGov poll and thought it made no sense at the time… The only answers you could justify were the “BetterTogether” desired one.

      If I’d known it was a BT poll, I wouldn’t have done it…

    3. Tom Steele says:

      If BT are doing this to control or change public opinion then they are onto plums thanks to Wings and the grassroots Yes campaign exposing their dirty deeds.

    4. bunter says:

      Seems that these polling companies are all prepared to sell their souls and reputations for the good of the glorious onion.

      Over to you Prof Poultice.

    5. Tom Steele says:

      If BT are doing this to control or change public opinion then they are onto plums thanks to Wings and the grassroots Yes campaign exposing their dirty deeds.

    6. HoraceSaysYes says:

      There’s some ridiculously tortured wording of questions going on there, clearly designed to elicit a particular response.

      Has Scotland’s leading psephologist made any comment on this poll, do we know?

    7. YoungNED says:

      It also shows (if you ignore the distinct lack of science and good polling) that scots buy into this pooling and sharing of resources lark far more than english voters… those same english voters who decide that the UK won’t do any meaningful sharing.

    8. desimond says:

      Spotted London Standard over womans shoulder last night on bus, the headline read “Now its The Queen vs suspected it was another wee No Campaign dig referencing that ‘fun’ poll from Wings recently.

    9. Fiona says:

      Apparently the government is now proposing “collective pensions” because private pensions are pish

      Collective pensions means that people pay into a pension scheme and they all get the same pension at the end: rather than an individual pension based on an annuity purchased with their own savings

      So this is a good idea. Such a good idea that we implemented it in 1948 and we called it the National Insurance Scheme. There is a difference: NI is pay as you go and that is because people couldn’t wait 40 years to start getting payments:some of them were already old.

      Same goes for this new scheme. But it does have the advantage that the private sector will still take some of the money in profit: and the national schemed doesn’t do that.

    10. desimond says:

      Hold on, its Bravehe@rt automagically removed, Im sure i typed it!

    11. DigDoug says:

      Ooh, I took part in that poll.

      It also asked if I considered myself Scottish, more Scottish than British, equally Scottish and British, more British than Scottish, or British. I wondered how that was relevant to the other questions. Now I know.

    12. Jeannie says:

      Stu – I don’t understand the stats for the last two questions. The questions seem to be either/or. What particular answers do the stats refer to? Maybe I’m just missing something, though.

    13. faolie says:

      So… this is a pointless survey then? At least wrt to the referendum?

      Should welfare payments always be the same throughout the Scotland, or is it OK to be different? Er, same throughout Scotland obviously.

      And what about the cost of paying benefits to people in [your region] who lose their job through no fault of their own be met? Should the money to pay this come from the taxes collected across Scotland as a whole, or from those collected in [your region] only? Well, call me an old fashioned redistributive socialist, but across Scotland for me.

    14. Jeannie says:

      @Stu
      Ah, just noticed you’d mentioned something about this referring to earlier questions – but still don’t understand.

    15. Murray McCallum says:

      “The world needs to invest more than 48trn dollars by 2035 to meet global energy demand and prevent oil prices spiralling out of control, according to the International Energy Agency” – Times

      I guess the OBR are sticking with significant oil price reductions. Have the IFS factored in sustained high prices (let alone increases)?

      Having trouble posting. Hope this appears.

    16. heedtracker says:

      Yougov must kick off every meet with Bliar McDougall thusly,
      “So Bliar, how’s it hangin and what do you want us to back up bettertogether with today then?”

    17. heraldnomore says:

      Staggering differences between English opinions and those elsewhere- much like UKIP voting really.

      But of course there all much of a much-ness aren’t they.

      Time to break those shackles

    18. gordoz says:

      Yougov = UKgov surely.

      Professor Curtice comment on this ???

      ‘All is fine an in order – totally impartial q’s no prompting’ ?

    19. gordoz says:

      Yougov = UKgov surely.

      Professor Curtice comment on this ???

      ‘All is fine and in order – totally impartial q’s no prompting’ ?

    20. CameronB Brodie says:

      It also shows (if you ignore the distinct lack of science and good polling) that scots buy into this pooling and sharing of resources lark far more than english voters…

      I was thinking about this, particularly in relation to pensions. I reckon this is a manifestation of the insecurity generated by the ‘Cringe’. This is the desired response to being fed TWTPTS FUD over the generations. Figure that one out newbies. 😉

    21. HandandShrimp says:

      I love the UK – OK stuff

      They are mental!

    22. Doug Daniel says:

      I always knew you were a unionist stooge in disguise, Stu. You’ve given the game away now!

      I’d love to hear what The Curtice or Professor Mitchell have to say about the leading nature of the questions. The bizarre thing is, reading the poll questions, it doesn’t seem like it’s connected to the referendum in any way. It sounds more like it’s trying to back up some political party’s change in welfare policy.

      Still, you’ve got to ask yourself why they’re having to manipulate folk in order to get a “favourable” response to the UK. Wouldn’t happen to have anything to do with the usual polls not giving them the answers they want, would it…?

    23. Training Day says:

      After Curtice’s recent double teaming performance with Dimbleby versus the FM on the BBC on Euro Election night, surely even the most tolerant among us can’t lend credence to the myth of this man’s impartiality?

    24. Megsmaw says:

      I’m doing a yougov poll right now that’s asking pretty much the same questions again, but phrased better.

      “Should the cost of paying the government old age pension to people in Scotland come from the taxes collected across the UK as a whole, or from those collected in Scotland only?”

    25. Megsmaw says:

      It’s also chucked in a sliding scale with the question

      “How happy or how disappointed would you be if the “yes” side won the referendum?”

    26. manandboy says:

      If there is any truth in the saying
      ‘A week is a long time in politics’,
      then 15 weeks is a very long time indeed.

      Who knows what will unfold?

      Will BBC V Scotland still be in business.

      Will the Better Together Alliance be able to control itself.

      Will the pressure, as yet unfelt, get to the No Campaign
      as Unemployment Day gets closer.

      Will the Grassroots Yes campaign swell its ranks after the summer holiday period.

      IndyRef. It ain’t over till….the recounts have all been completed and the 800,000 extra ballot papers have all been accounted for.

    27. Megsmaw says:

      And this wee stoater, “How fairly do you expect the Scottish referendum to be conducted?”.

    28. joe kane says:

      At a slight tangent,
      a pretty excellent report was published today by the Scottish Government’s Expert Working Group on Welfare. The humanity and common decency it displays towards the poorest and most vulnerable people in society is the polar opposite of that of the Westminster Government with its vast campaign of human rights abuses being carried out against them, orchestrated and organised by the kafkaesque-orwellian DWP.

      Report summary and its 40 main recommendation reproduced here, also includes link to the report –
      #IndyRef New Scottish Government Expert Group on Welfare Report: Scrap Work Capability Assessments, Workfare and Benefit Sanctions Regime
      http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/2014/06/04/indyref-new-scottish-government-expert-group-on-welfare-report-scrap-work-capability-assessments-workfare-and-benefit-sanctions-regime/

    29. Appleby says:

      I can’t change sides now, Rev. I’ve got one of those stickers that go in the back window of the car to show support for Yes campaign and you know those are so hard to come off you’d be quicker replacing the whole window.

    30. John Gibson says:

      bunter said:

      “Seems that these polling companies are all prepared to sell their souls and reputations for the good of the glorious onion.

      Over to you Prof Poultice.”

      I have already complained (to no effect) some time ago to ‘BBC Scotlandshire’ about this kind of abuse. We should be above petty name-calling – please give Prof. Curtains due respect!

    31. manandboy says:

      Before Sept 18th, there will surely be a caption competition somewhere, beginning with the words –

      “Bit, ah’ve always votit Labour ………”

    32. Red Squirrel says:

      BT wasted their cash – pretty much the same old rubbish with a ‘because we say so’ at the end.

      All that union-jackery makes me nauseous – who’s going to tell them the empire is over?

    33. msean says:

      Is this the pollster with the Tory mp as a shareholder? The one whose horses were cold and needed heating up?

    34. X_Sticks says:

      manandboy says:

      “It ain’t over till….the recounts have all been completed and the 800,000 extra ballot papers have all been accounted for.”

      Aye, that.

    35. msean says:

      Sorry,not a shareholder since in Parliament,my mistake.

    36. MochaChoca says:

      Makes it sound like we are not really up for devo-max / full fiscal autonomy then.

    37. Les Wilson says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      4 June, 2014 at 1:56 pm
      “It also shows (if you ignore the distinct lack of science and good polling) that scots buy into this pooling and sharing of resources lark far more than english voters…”

      I would suggest many when voting on this were confusing it as being across Scotland.

    38. CameronB Brodie says:

      Les, I picked that up from YoungNED. I’m no grassin’, just credit where its due. 🙂

    39. Robert Louis says:

      I see from the twitter feed, linking to the interview with Alistair Darling, that Mr.Darling has started playing bingo!

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/alex-salmond-dictator-comparison-bingo/

    40. deewal says:

      Why are you so obsessed with poll’s ?

    41. Free Scotland says:

      “And what about the cost of paying benefits to people in [your country] who lose their job through no fault of their own be met?”

      Another example of Better Together’s shaky grasp of syntax, quoted from the last question. Try replacing “what about” with “how should.” Otherwise, delete “be met” from the end of the question and keep “what about.” (I hope the deceptive slime-bags are not too offended at being taught English by someone from a foreign country.)

    42. manandboy says:

      The Constitutional, Political and Economic destiny of Scotland
      will not be decided by uninformed chitter chatter
      which dominates both social media and mainstream press and television,
      nor by highly dubious opinion polls,
      but by the application of essential realities.

    43. bunter says:

      Mr Batemans twitter feed suggests A Darling has lost the plot.

    44. MochaChoca says:

      O/T

      Is this the kind of thing my taxes should be paying for?

      https://www.gov.uk/government/news/12-things-that-1400-uk-dividend-could-buy?

    45. Luigi says:

      From day 1, dubious, contrived poll results have been used by BT to try and frame the constitutional debate and manipulate public opinion.

      At the end of the day, the referendum will be decided on how Scottish people feel, and which government do they trust (or hate the least).

      So lies, spin and opinion polls may not sway many people.

      But, why give BT a free reign? Why let them fool anyone into voting no?

      So, we keep debunking the lies and spin, and, very importantly, we commission more of our own polls regularly, to challenge the strange findings of BT. We keep doing this until September. It may cause confusion to some of the undecideds, but when a confused, undecided person enters the polling booth in September, the matter of identity and trust swings into action.

      WoS and other sites are doing a brilliant job. Keep the pressure on, Rev. Hit em hard. Keep challenging the BT deceivers until they spin themselves into a deep hole that they cannot escape from.

    46. CameronB Brodie says:

      MochaChoca
      A bit short-term and insignificant and somewhat individualistic, IMO. But I don’t swim in the mainstream. Very much targeted at the ordinary punter and totally cynical. What else would you expect of HMG though?

    47. Papadox says:

      What came first Big Gordies speech to the faithful or you guvs speech tae big Gordie. Or you guvs manipulation of their questions.

    48. Andy-B says:

      If you have enough polls with the right amount of skewed questions, then surely you’ll eventually get the answers you want, then publish the poll, and say I told you they want to remain in the union. It opens the question, are no really in the lead, when it comes to the polls?.

      O/T.

      Alex Salmond, proposed some inspiring ideas on 5 Million Questions last night Mr Salmond mentioned Mr Putin’s name once, in a kind of jocular fashion. The Daily Record and Evening Times carry a story each today, with the headline “Salmond regrets Putin comment” ,need I say anymore, not one mention of Mr Salmond’s ideas to help people in an independent Scotland.

    49. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry, I meant the Scotland Office’s ‘union dividend’ was cynical.

      I object most strongly to being taxed to help campaign against my own democratic self-interests.

    50. Oneironaut says:

      Seems like we have more in common with the Welsh than the English.

      I like the Welsh! 😀

    51. desimond says:

      Johann Lamont inspired Football Fun Fact of the day..

      Benin National team nickname: The Squirrels

    52. Arel says:

      Surely as a way to focus minds we should have the ballot paper reworded to ask.

      Vote Yes and go for it.

      Vote No and bottle it.

      Mark you given the sheep like mentality of some people and the apologists for anything UK it probably wouldn’t matter.

    53. Betty Boop says:

      @ Joe Kane, 2.18pm

      a pretty excellent report was published today by the Scottish Government’s Expert Working Group on Welfare. The humanity and common decency it displays towards the poorest and most vulnerable people in society is the polar opposite of that of the Westminster Government with its vast campaign of human rights abuses being carried out against them, orchestrated and organised by the kafkaesque-orwellian DWP

      I would like to say that such humanity is reflected in most of Scottish society and certainly comes across when speaking to most Yes voters.

      I find the opposite, however, when speaking to many No voters. I have been told by more than a few whilst canvassing, quite frankly, that they couldn’t care less and others couch their disregard for the poorer in society in mealy mouthed phrases picked up from the media.

      Jack is alive and well and he’s all right.

      This is one of the major differences between the vision and political will of Yes supporters and those who would continue to support the horrendously unequal, unfair society created and exacerbated by successive UK governments, Labour or Conservative and now, of course, joined by the Libdems and UKIP, etc., etc.

    54. Papadox says:

      NI IS Excluded from you guvs pseudo poll due to the fact that they are on the road to independence and unity with the ROI. That’s ROI and HMGs long term plan. In my humble opinion.

      Unless NI discovers oil. Then it will be all change

    55. ronnie anderson says:

      Wings Over Scotland in Strathclyde Park Sat 7th June 11.30am

      to 4.30pm.

      Many thanks to Airdrie & Shotts Yes Group Betty & Stuart

      Gamble for contributing Yes Window Posters + Car Bumper &

      Windscreen Stickers.

      Meeting Kininvie tommorow for more material Badges ect, so

      Many thanks to Him for taking the time to travel to Airdrie.

    56. K1 says:

      O/T, I found this little indiegogo campaign with 6 days to go: The Post Collective was set up in 2013 as an alternative voice in Scottish politics and publishing. Its aim is to provide a voice of Scotland’s younger generation on issues of environment, technology, politics and the internet not covered by the mainstream press.

      Apologies if ths has been posted before.

      Thought it would be quite nice to help them reach their very modest goal of £1000, they are up to £625 at present.

      Everytime I read about the obsfucation, lies, and downright treachery of our opponents, most especially enabled by the msm, I try to find something that counteracts my anger…and it’s just a bonus if I find something like this which is positive and inspiring and happening right now in Scotland.

      https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/scotland-44-ideas-for-a-new-nation

    57. HandandShrimp says:

      deewal

      Cos numbers are fun 🙂

    58. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

      O/T – Another tinfoil hat job.

      This is what we are up against.

      http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/06/03/revealed_beyond_top_secret_british_intelligence_middleeast_internet_spy_base/

    59. Andy-B says:

      O/T Rev,sorry.

      The Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt has come out and said, that independence for Scotland will lead to the Balkanisation of the British Isles. I’m wondering if Mr Bildt is really George Robertson in disguise.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27696769

    60. O/T just heard Mike Small from ‘Bella Caledonia’on Radio scotland drive time news,well just about heard as it seems YES supporters are only allowed crap phone lines today!

      As he pointed out the Queens speech does not mention any further devolution,or even seems to think Scotland even matters.
      I guess Cameron and his minion thinks Scotland will not vote for independence in september,let them think that and we’ll show them!

    61. Nana Smith says:

      Sorry to butt in but I had some good news this afternoon.
      Out at the groomers with my wee dug and last time I was there[December]I brought up the referendum.The poor woman knew absolutely nothing so I got stuck in and lo and behold today she tells me her whole family including her English dad is voting Yes and between them all have converted a good few more. Fair cheered me up.

      I told her to take a peek at the bbc demo last Sunday so she is going to push that.

    62. Sinky says:

      Re BBC, how is it they refer to the No campaign as pro UK but never the Yes campaign as pro Scotland?

    63. Les Wilson says:

      Andy-B says:

      Andy,
      Brown is an utter creep, he is now trying to save the Union rather than the world, where he well, failed!
      He is loving the sudden cough! “repect” is feels he has from his “friends”. The same friends who push him now for their gain, will be the same ones who will doubt and scorn
      if a No vote comes in. Whatever result, he will have to accept going back to the dog, he is.

      Back in the day my nickname for him was “The Pickpocket ”
      which reflected my view of the non stop stealth taxes he brought in.

    64. heedtracker says:

      @ Andy-B, thanks for the Guardian link, old Severin really has the hots for Crash

      “Then Gordon Brown is on. And he really is on: greeted by whoops and cheers, smiling as naturally as he ever does, striding across the stage, the Kirkcaldy colossus. He even manages to make the dread phrase “pool and share resources” sound emotionally resonant.”

      Holy shit but at least with Salmond we wont have to endure that guff from any ukok journos. See they even had to use that dude in his union jack draped mobility scooter to block out Glasgow, and he’s always in George Square.

    65. Betty Boop says:

      @Nana Smith, 4.50pm

      That’s the way to do it! Well done, Nana.

      Sometimes it seems we have to do this one at a time, but, it is always heartening when someone takes notice and takes the message forward.

      Canvassing in all its forms is really important folks and it is down to us to get out there and do it. I’ve had numerous people thank me for knocking on their door, even if they are of a different opinion, because there is so much confusion out there. If not on the net, lots of folk are at the mercy of MSM.

    66. heedtracker says:

      Re BBC, how is it they refer to the No campaign as pro UK but never the Yes campaign as pro Scotland?

      because the BBC is trying to annihilate Scottish democracy and SNP Scots.gov

    67. Kevan Cooper says:

      Papadox:

      Could also be that NI have self control over “Welfare and Social Security Policy”

    68. manandboy says:

      http://tinypic.com/r/w8oto9/8

      Clarifier Flyer

    69. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Calgacus MacAndrews 4.24, Timpani Guitar Claranet. Ah know a man wie a big TUBA kin he join the club, underwater deeper
      the better.

    70. heedtracker says:

      Sorry the Guardian thing wasn’t Severin Carrell in Glasgow although it probably is Carrell, in a nice summer dress, undercover and he says WoS got her all wrong and she really didn’t know Crash has made loads of “major re re reinterventions,” or, just one more liar of the great British press

      Morning all. Just had a tweet from @WingsOverScotland asking ” ‘First major speech of his referendum campaign’? Jesus, do you think we’re MORONS?”

      Obviously I don’t think you are Reverend but all the rest of you other sweaties are so who cares. So, for confusion, I mean the first major speech of the regulated campaign period, which started last Friday, all the other Crash major speeches were wiped from my memory you see.
      Wings adds: “The “campaign” has been going on for two years. The regulated period is an contextually-irrelevant technicality.” or as technically called by UK media, meaningless.

      I’m happy to stand corrected, but I’m fairly sure that this is the first big speech Brown has done on Scottish independence in two years too and if this is bare faced lie No.1957 of the day, again who cares.

      The pensions one was to a much smaller audience but still got blasted across Scotland, like what every other Brown speech does in this first major speech of this campaign, so vote NO, its a really lovely powerful sexy thing.

      Steve Bell says Scotland votes to go ____ itself too!

    71. Grouse Beater says:

      When you have power elite in the Lords declare a Yes vote can be delayed indefinitely if “it is not in the UK’s interest” – for ‘UK’ read England – who in their right mind will believe half-baked extra powers offered now will remain on the table after a No vote?

    72. desimond says:

      @ronnie

      Best of luck to all involved, take your wings umbrella if you have one, seems a storms a coming over the weekend!

    73. ronnie anderson says:

      @ desimond 6 of us canny fit under a umbrella, we’ve goat a

      Gizebo 6ft thanks.

    74. heedtracker says:

      Thanks for your link too Nana Smith and bettertogether does seem to be getting all riled up.

      So Alistair Darling attacks Alex Salmond for stating what the BBC actually did, give Farage etc at least 4 times as much airtime as everyone else put together, which to be honest has felt like a lot more over the last 2 years of rancid old beeb time and future Deputy PM Farage.

      And cut to Flipper blinking like mad
      “He said on the BBC that people voted UKIP in Scotland because English TV was being beamed in to Scotland. This was a North Korean response. This is something that Kim Jong-il would say. And this is the same BBC for which we all pay our licence fee, and we all enjoy the national output as well as the Scottish output.”

    75. Andy-B says:

      @Les Wilson.

      @heedtracker.

      Couldn’t agree with you guys more, with regards to Gordon brown and Co.

      The Queen travelled in a brand new coach today, (Probably taxpayer funded), and according to the media,a new addition added,to it, are sections of the Scotland’s “Stone of Destiny”.

      http://www.theguardian.com/politics/scottish-independence-blog/2014/jun/04/gordon-brown-scottish-independence-referendum-no

    76. TickTock says:

      Sinky @ 4.54

      “Re BBC, how is it they refer to the No campaign as pro UK but never the Yes campaign as pro Scotland?”

      Excellent point, something that the Yes campaign should think about using/developing.

    77. goldenayr says:

      Just heard Ja Ba on Newsdrive with her summation of the calls to raise the min wage by £1.

      She basically said..

      “Shut it ye sponging gits.Y’re no worth it.”

      She’s a real socialist that one.

    78. I stopped doing those polls when I twigged what they were up to with their ambiguous and leading questioning.

    79. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Andy B & that is a question to be answered,who authorised

      the Stone of Destiny to have pieces chipped off it.

    80. Andy-B says:

      Alistair Darling admitting for once, that the independence vote will be a close call, Mr Darling says its all down to who turns out on the day of the vote. Alistair Darling added we (The naesayers) need to win and then we can put independence to bed, for at least a generation.

      Mr Darling continued with,I’m angry at the abuse levelled at those voicing an opinion about independence, opponents of independence are staying away from debating due to possible abuse.

      http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/06/04/uk-scotland-independence-darling-idUKKBN0EF1PW20140604

    81. Jim Marshall says:

      Andy Murray on court, well in command.

    82. manandboy says:

      From the Guardian

      pandapaws
      04 June 2014 9:38am

      “Johann Lamont speaks first, talking passionately about social justice”
      Johann “no to free prescriptions and free tuition and something for nothing culture”

      Lamont?

      She’s to social justice what Herod was to childcare.
      __________________________________________________

      A brammer !

    83. goldenayr says:

      Re The Stone of Destiny.

      Then one they have is a fake.

      That’s twice they’ve been duped.

      First time was with Longshanks.And the second time was when they got it “returned”.

      Kaye told me where it is.

    84. Andy-B says:

      Forgot to add link to Queen Lizzie new fancy coach, which contains parts of the Stone of Scone.

      http://www.itv.com/news/2014-06-03/queens-new-state-coach-celebrates-years-of-british-history/

    85. desimond says:

      @Ronnie

      Talk of the Sharon Stone of Destiny with missing chips and pieces…..cheers, noo ahm Hank Marvin!

    86. Jim Marshall says:

      Ronnie Anderson

      My Mrs and I will stop by on Sat for a wee blether.

    87. heedtracker says:

      @ Andy-B, its all hands to the ukok avalanche of vote no pressure exploding out of every uk hole now. So instead of Scotland’s future as a nation state getting crapped on every few days for the last decade eg Severin Carrell, Gordon Brewer etc, its now every minute of every day.

      It makes sense though,if you’re Bliar MscDougal projectfearing it, if only because its all they can do, frighten, lie, massive vote no pressure and all for Scots oil, Trident nukes and a hell of a lot of their territory.

    88. Andy-B says:

      @ronnie anderson.

      Thats correct Ronnie who indeed? on a more possibly positive note, was the real stone ever recovered or is it still hidden in Scotland somewhere,maybe it will surface after a YES vote, that would be inspiring.

    89. crazycat says:

      Re the article in the Guardian – are tellen1(there) and duggie(here) the same person? If not, someone else is writing both their scripts (or one of them is plagiarizing the other).

    90. muttley79 says:

      Somebody should have a calm word with Darling (I deliberately choose the word calm because you know what the No campaign are like on cybernats). Darling is like a man possessed. Does he fear that his flipping and troughing days down in Westminster are coming to an end?

    91. CameronB Brodie says:

      “He said on the BBC that people voted UKIP in Scotland because English TV was being beamed in to Scotland. This was a North Korean response. This is something that Kim Jong-il would say. And this is the same BBC for which we all pay our licence fee, and we all enjoy the national output as well as the Scottish output.”

      Enough said? He is a self-confessed British nationalist.

    92. goldenayr says:

      crazycat

      Don’t know about “Duggie” here but the troll Tellen1 is still prolific on The Scotsman.Usually referred to as Indy Now or some such by the newer posters.It has various writing styles so is hard to pin down.I just call them “fodder”.

    93. heedtracker says:

      Tellen1, Riderooo, Alsebabas are getting off with any old betterTogther garbage so what on earth’s happened to YES CiF in said Guardian? If you haven’t been blocked by phoney progressive/liberal Guardian. get in there.

    94. crazycat says:

      Thanks for responses re tellen1 – the wording was so spookily the same I was suspicious (banging on and on and on about the EU and NATO and the SNP not having a mandate, all word for word what was on here, with a few extras and no claim that he is a Yes). I do comment on the Guardian, but am trying to be careful lest I get prevented from continuing.

    95. goldenayr says:

      heedtracker

      Forgot about Rideroo.

      That new,unionit,one from Aus must be him.

    96. gregor says:

      Slightly off subject but Just came across this letter today it says it all really, thanks Arthur Greening
      http://www.publishaletter.com/readletter.jsp?plid=52464Dear Editor:
      I believe, as the late John P Mackintosh MP for East Lothian and Berwickshire did, that we Scots have the brains and the courage to run our own country. We have the sense to welcome the English, and their skills, into our midst too. They know that whilst we will defend their country at every turn, as indeed they will defend us, it is not in the interest of the working class within Scotland to be shackled forever to England.
      I appeal to traditional Labour voters, like myself, not to be deceived by the fibs of Messrs, Blair, Brown, Blunkett, Darling, Hewitt, Mandelsohn, Reid and Prescott. These new Labour millionaires sold the Labour Party’s soul. They, and 23 Tory Cabinet millionaires, now seek to persuade you to sell you country’s soul. They urge you to vote NO to INDEPENDENCE. Will you? I won’t!
      To vote NO is to support pay day loans, pawn shops and abandon manufacturing skills.
      To vote NO is to support wars of intervention in foreign countries.
      To vote NO is to ensure a constant Conservative Government who knows nothing of your life.
      To vote NO is to accept unemployment rates of 50% on parts of the west coast and 30% on average.
      To vote NO means that 60% of Scots will continue to earn less than £25,000 per year.
      To vote NO accepts that 100,000 children in poverty is tolerable.
      To vote NO is to agree that cuts should be imposed on the most vulnerable in society.
      To vote NO agrees to a £375 Bn bailout for the stockmarket and £140 Bn to cover tax evasion
      To vote NO is to demand a flexible workforce that is transferable and disposable.
      To vote NO is to prefer others to rule your country.
      To vote NO is to beg for your fair share and the humiliation that comes with that.
      To vote NO shows a lack of self-belief in ourselves and a lack of faith in our children.
      To vote NO is to be frightened into staying in a relationship and the contempt that that brings.
      To vote NO means agreeing to suffer poverty, degeneration, hopelessness, fear, abdication and to
      giving up democratic government so deeply cherished in Scotland.
      That is why I’m voting YES!
      I urge all the Labour voting electors to think deeply and to act courageously.
      Arthur Greenan
      East Linton
      Saturday, 26 April 2014

    97. gordoz says:

      Its seems we’ll wait for ever to hear the ‘positive case’ for the Union !

      Or is this it by Mr Darling ? ; are people still calling this failed money man respected ? for this sort of personalised crap?

      Sounds like Lazy labour Central mantra – go after Salmond; like the FM is the only driving force of YES.

      Or is it still sour grapes that they are no longer in the driving seat of their former ‘regional northern fiefdom’?

    98. gregor says:

      I don’t know if I am allowed to post this link but it makes very interesting reading
      http://info.moneyweek.com/urgent-bulletins/the-end-of-britain
      My apologies if I have broken any rules

    99. Thepnr says:

      @gregor

      Moneyweek might think Britain is is a sinking ship but they want Scotland to go down with them.

      Their only in it to make money with their own brand of Project Fear. Here’s the Moneyweek view on the referendum from March last year: https://archive.today/ajCm2

    100. gregor says:

      @thepnr
      Yes that is what I thought as well, YES only thing to do.

    101. Footsoldier says:

      Henceforth, across the board let’s call unionists British nationalists as they keep calling us Scottish nationalists.

    102. Greannach says:

      Is that Stickers Murray in the tasteful jacket in the photo?

    103. Croompenstein says:

      @Greannach – I’ll say it for him – check the picture tag

    104. Duggie says:

      Gossiping like wee fish wifies are you?

      I don’t read the Guardian so I’ve no idea who this ‘tellend’ that you’re talking about is, but its good to see that its not just me who is standing up for the democratic rights of the Scottish people and who supports the Scottish Greens standing up against the SNP’s plan to override our democracy and force us into their preferred version of independence without giving us a say and without a mandate.

    105. Meindevon says:

      As the Rev points out the poll asks if you agree or disagree with the following statements, then in the middle of it they ask three questions which, by the nature of them being questions, makes them impossible to answer!

      What is wrong with these people?…..agree or disagree?

    106. Gary says:

      So, nowhere does it mention independence? All the questions are framed within the existing UK. Isn’t this specifically against the rules? They say the result shows something but it is not referenced in the poll..



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