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Wings Over Scotland

Return of the classics

Posted on November 27, 2017 by

God bless ’em, they just never lose the faith, do they?

(Resigned four weeks later.)

(Resigned eight days later.)

Some of them are just kinda sad, though.

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    337 to “Return of the classics”

    1. blackhack says:

      What planet do these people live on ??
      It’s certainly not the same one as me…..

    2. John Dickson says:

      R.O.F.L. Talk about hitting your head against a brick wall, although it their cas it is probably hitting a brick wall against your head.

    3. winifred mccartney says:

      Labour is still fighting the wrong enemy both in WM and Scotland and unfortunately they never learn from their mistakes.

      Some start off well intentioned but before long they are corrupted into the lying, cheating, party first mentality and lose their connection with real people. How many labour lords are there – this is a complete anachronism to everything they ever believed, as is all their expenses cheating, house flipping etc.

    4. Walter Scott says:

      They’re a funny bunch those crazy labour folk. Is that all of them now who have been touted as next FM? Do they try to be this hilarious on purpose?

    5. nodrog says:

      Len has conveniently forgotten that Keir Hardie was a Nationalist.

    6. heedtracker says:

      Ah the red tories in their Scotland region…if Hubris isnt around, that’s the best laugh on a chilly Monday morn for a while:D

    7. Clan rossy says:

      There’s more chance the second coming of Christ
      Materialising .
      Than labour ever coming to power in Scotland ever again
      Bastards the whole lot of them no words can describe
      How much I hate them for what they have done to

    8. Chas Clark says:

      So who is going to be the next ‘next First Minister’ and how long do we have to wait for that one?

    9. call me dave says:

      Such a long list and in such a relatively short time. 🙂

      Leonard’s ‘Scottish’ labour commissions to discuss…etc etc etc.

      Meanwhile events move on a pace. What are they like?

    10. Maurice Taylor says:

      And don’t forget Ruth, with her fingers crossed and tank gun barrel primed.

    11. Ken500 says:

      ‘Who owns the Scottish economy’ ‘External shocks etc’. Who caused illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. £Trns of debt. Took all the Oil revenues, illegally and secretly. Stupid, fecking Labour – unionists. Westminster abstainers, Now Brexit tanking the UK economy. What planet are they on Zog. Cheek. Totally selfish unawareness. Sanctioning and starving vulnerable people. Causing mental problems. Cutting funds for essential services. Spending and wasting money on groteque products of no value. Supporting Trident. They are just malicious liars.

      Scotland could have had total employment. Westminster illegal, unfair tax. 40% since Jan 2016. Losing £Billions in Scotland and 120,000 jobs. The Vow. Stopped every legitimate power coming to Scotland.

      The list is endless.

    12. Snode1965 says:

      From the same platform this morning…
      Corbyn states that his reformed Education policy, the National Education Service, originally planned for England only,may also be introduced in Scotland.
      Rewriting the Act of Union Jeremy?

    13. Welsh Sion says:

      An adaptation of Einstein’s quote springs to mind:

      “Insanity: saying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”

    14. Ken500 says:

      Anyone who opposes Scottish Independence lasts two years. The Unionist poison chalice. Except for the 3rd rate rejects elected on the unionist manipulated electoral system. Without consent or knowledge in Scotland. Some democracy! FPTP would get rid of the lot of them.

    15. Brian says:

      Aw bless their misguided optimism.
      So blinkered and clueless. Making the same mistakes and blaming the SNP for it.

      One day it’ll click but by then they’ll be lower than a Lib Dem Snake.

    16. stonefree says:

      I find nothing remotely funny about this , Leonard promoting rUK along with Muddle and the Tank Commander reaming Scotland erse ……..coupled to the “Return of Wee Wendy”

    17. HandandShrimp says:

      They have to say something like that because to do otherwise is to admit defeat before they start.

      It is a fair back catalogue though 🙂

    18. heedtracker says:

      That Murdoch goon’s, “Dugdale’s the next FM” is HI larious! Professional liars are unwitting comedians though, especially Murdoch’s. Ligger Neil’s up there with the great Murdoch clowns, to be fair to his pet bootboy in Scotland.

    19. Sandy says:

      It is a bit sad, isn’t it.

    20. Clarinda says:

      Hitting your head against a brick wall – for the seventh time – is the continuous and fruitless effort of attempting to achieve something ultimately hopeless.

    21. Robert Peffers says:

      That’s the thing about dogma – it doesn’t need a shred of evidence.

      Here is how an on-line dictionary defines “dogma”.


      noun: dogma; plural noun: dogmas.

      a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.

      Example – “the dogmas of faith”

      synonyms: teaching, belief, conviction, tenet, principle, ethic, precept, maxim, article of faith, canon, law, rule; More
      creed, credo, code of belief, set of beliefs, set of principles, doctrine, ideology, orthodoxy

      Example – “a dogma of the Sikh religion”

      •blind faith, unquestioning belief, certainty, invincible conviction, unchallengeable conviction, arrogant conviction

      Example – “they were urged to emancipate their minds from the fetters of dogma”

      antonyms: doubt, open-mindedness

      It is an easy step for a religion to preach their own particular dogma and for their followers to then stigmatise everyone who does not believe their particular version.

      Even a different sect of their main dogmatic faith may have a dogma and thus sectarianism will result and can then become the overriding drive of a particular sect.

      Some political parties seem rather prone to dogma and these parties attract people who are prone to accepting dogma. Like, for example, Murdo Fraser MSP, Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party and a supporter of a Scottish football club with long standing Christian sectarian connections.

      Christians killing Christians in the name of both sects shared God.

      Muslims killing Muslims in the name of both sects shared prophet.


      The Prophet Muhammad was chosen to tell the people there was only one God. This happened when Muhammad was 40 years old, when an angel appeared and revealed the first verses of the Koran to him.

      So just why are Christians and Muslims killing each other if they both worship the same, “One God”?

      The answer is, of course, dogma.

    22. heedtracker says:

      Whatever happened to Kenfarq’s next Scottish FM anyway?

      STV news this morn…

      Smoothie: Kezia wasn’t a big fan of pig anus. ITV Studios
      Kezia Dugdale has gone from the loftyish heights of leading Scottish Labour to struggling to down a foaming smoothie made of bull’s penis and another of ostrich and pig’s anus on live TV.

      We’ve all been there. Dugdale officially arrived on I’m A Celebrity… Get Me Out Of Here! on Thursday and has already been through the jungle mill.”

      Towering SLab politico indeed, kenfarq.

    23. gus1940 says:

      It’s time to start speculation as to who will succeed Leonard.

      I give you The Branch Office’s Political Fireball – James Kelly who entrances the Chamber with his scintillating knockout oratory.

    24. ClanDonald says:

      Ha ha ha 😀

    25. geeo says:

      This is brilliant, up there with Rev’s post about “Peak SNP” and it going back to 2008…!!

    26. gus1940 says:

      Robert Peffers @12.43

      Mohammed didn’t appear on the scene until around the 6th century – what religious beliefs were held by the Arabian peoples before that?

      I’ve never heard anybody mention that matter.

      Is it possible that their beliefs were not a million miles from Judaism which had been on the go for a couple of millenia before he came along?

    27. David Caledonia says:

      What do you get when you cross a scottish labour leader with a meal from a chip shop. a yorkshire puddin lol

    28. Ken500 says:

      Act of a Union. Scotland would have a separate Church. Led on to education. Church education. One of the first countries to introduce tertiary education for all. Labour imposed Uni education fees. Increased loans. Now £9000 in England. Does Corbyn want to impose that on Scotland. Just as well education is devolved. Bexit no reciprocal education exchanges with the EU. Travel broadens the mind. Science agencies are already moving.

    29. SandyW says:

      We need the wisdom of the Oracle! The sage McTernan must speak!

    30. Proud Cybernat says:

      So–these SLabour politicians are using democracy to try and try and try to win their political objectives? When they lose, they simply dust themselves down and try again, and again, and again.

      But heaven forfend if your political objective is an independent Scotland – oh no, no, no, no,no, no. THAT political objective is only allowed ONCE ever, according to the definition of democracy in the 3rd volume of Yoonipedia:

      1. the fact or state of being independent which is very good thing except for people who live in Scotland.
      2. When you lose an IndyRef you’re no’ allowed to try again. Not EVER.

      SNP Bad, Vile Cybernat

      To keep fighting for indy is a democratic outrage, I tell you!

    31. Lanarkist says:

      Richard Leonard is not the next First Minister of Scotland he is just an awfully naughty boy!

    32. Richard MacKinnon says:

      Our 2014 referendum has made the Scottish parliament an irrelevance. It has been fossilised by the result. All members, all parties know they are frauds. Like eunuchs in a harem they might look important but when it comes down to it they are bit players in a vanity project, and they know it.
      Up until 2014 it was a dynamic young institution, with the possibiltiy of greater things, but the referendum result stopped that in its tracks.
      For Labour and Conservatives MSPs the best place to be is in opposition. It is a poisoned crock to be ‘in power’ at Holyrood. The SNP government look ever more ridiculous. Running a devolved government is in reality, doing the dirty work for which ever party is in power at Westminster. That is what devolution is. It was ok up until September 2014, it is an embarassment now.
      Look at it, watch Nicola Sturgeon, Ruth Davidson and now Richard Leonard go through the motions on Thursdays. My advice is to try and see the funny side.
      Getting back to the subject, of course Scottish Labour leaders say they will be Scotland’s next FM, but they say it because that is what is expected of them.
      This article is exactly the same as last weeks on Ruth Davidson. The Reverend writes another hissy pointless article about how black affronted he is at Scotland’s unionist leaders, why? for staing the bloody obvious.

    33. ronnie anderson says:

      Slab an the greatest expectations show lol .

    34. Capella says:

      The McTernan Seer has channeled this message:

      There’ll come a time
      However long it be
      When a pale-faced GUMBY from Yorkshire
      Will rise to lead the People’s Party
      After which time the Scottish people
      Will take peaceful possession of their land
      And live in peace and prosperity for ever more.

      Further updates available.

    35. None of these candidates is fit even to tie the laces of Nicola Sturgeon

    36. Auld Rock says:

      Yawn – waken me up when something happens – now let me go back to working for Independence.

    37. galamcennalath says:

      For me Labour’s downfall came from the Feeble Fifty of the 80s. I didn’t vote for them but a great many Scots did and with FPTP they dominated Scotland’s presence at WM. We rejected the Tories and Thatcher’s move to the right and rampant neo liberalism. Those Labour MPs were put there to protect Scotland from Tory ravages.

      What did Labour do with this overwhelming mandate? Sweet fck all!

      Already they had begun to look over their shoulders at the SNP who took a knock back in the 80s, and they chose Union and UKOK over their voters’ interests.

      Hell mend them! Labour deserves oblivion. Their only hope of salvation is to put their voters and Scotland first, always. I won’t hold my breath waiting.

    38. Artyhetty says:

      Oh for the power of suggestion eh. What they really want is for the voters to ‘keep the faith’.

      They still can’t believe that their followers are not so open at all, to being conned anymore. Ohhh, Corbyyynn. The people of Scotland have had their eyes opened to just how close the branch, taking their orders from London Labour are, to their Tory pals.

      The so called Labour First Minister of Scotland, back in 2006, was so close to his Tory pals that he sent £1.3 or so milllion to the London treasury, because Labour couldn’t find ‘anything to spend it on in Scotland’. No, not on housing, health, infrastructure, education, culture, sports, nothing to spend it on. They have been quite happy for Westminster to take Scotland’s revenues and chuck a few crumbs back via a ‘grant’ Imagine that, in any other country, your next door neighbour takes your revenues and sends a few crumbs back expecting you to be grateful and compliant. It’s totally insane.

      If Labour were at the helm in Holyrood now we would be like Wales.

      Labour kept Scotland poor, and would lay waste to this country if ever they were to secure any kind of power at the Scottish parliament, and we must not let them even have a snifter of power. Lying, scheming, troughing toads.

    39. Around Christmastime. ‘Great Expectations’.

    40. Tinto Chiel says:

      Most amusing, Rev. That lot are like a cast from a Carry On film.

      Still mystified as to why Sarwar didn’t win the contest: I mean, he had a big red Socialist door and everything…

    41. Clydebuilt says:

      Lenny the Liar has started as he means to continue . . . According to Him Scottish Water needs to be taken back into public ownership.

      As broadcast on BBC Shortbread 1pm news

    42. Vestas says:

      Amusing but where are they now?

      My suspicion is that most of them still have some form of establishment sinecure….

    43. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Richard MacKinnon –

      Well, that’s certainly an interesting take on things.

      Regardless of how you feel about individual politicians, their parties and performances, that parliament belongs to the Scottish people. If you want to find out how *they* feel about it I suggest you pay attention when WM tries to shut it down.


    44. heedtracker says:

      Richard MacKinnon says:

      Nice tantrum Richard. Yes Holyrood is a mere regional assembly, in this farce union. But that aside, SNP Scots gov is doing everything humanly possible to be good government, within the massive constraints of what was certainly NOT delivered in The Vow.

      The Vow, Richard must be one the greatest and most successful frauds on any nation anywhere, by our chums in the south and ofcourse, SLabour

    45. HandandShrimp says:


      I think Arabia had a real mix of religions. Traditional Pagan beliefs, a Judaic community, Christian community and a Zarathustrian community.

    46. Richard MacKinnon says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      27 November, 2017 at 1:53 pm

      Westminster will never shut down the devolved assemblies. Its the perfect tool to govern in the provinces.

    47. Macart says:

      Wait now… I’m seeing a pattern forming! 🙂

    48. brewsed says:

      From The Economist, ‘Attacking the SNP from the left, with promises of higher taxes and better public services, leaves the centre open to a resurgent Conservative Party, argues John McTernan, a former Labour adviser who now works for PSB, a pollster. “The winner of the Scottish leadership election was not Richard Leonard,” he says. “It was Ruth Davidson” ‘.
      Mr McTernan’s previous predictions include: ‘It will be President Clinton’, ‘Remain will win’,’ Will Jeremy win? [the labour leadership], I don’t think so’, ‘edballsmp is the secret weapon who will win the General Election’
      From The Economist, ‘Attacking the SNP from the left, with promises of higher taxes and better public services, leaves the centre open to a resurgent Conservative Party, argues John McTernan, a former Labour adviser who now works for PSB, a pollster. “The winner of the Scottish leadership election was not Richard Leonard,” he says. “It was Ruth Davidson” ‘.

      Mr McTernan’s previous predictions include: ‘It will be President Clinton’, ‘Remain will win’,’ Will Jeremy win? [the labour leadership], I don’t think so’, ‘edballsmp is the secret weapon who will win the General Election’

    49. James Barr Gardner says:

      O/T Waddins, wains, wifes an’ widin owercoats ther’re no gonnae run oot o’ feckin’ squirrels ony time soon, wa’ tae wa’ feckin bluidy butcher’s aprons, try an’ walk intae Edinburgh Castle waving a Saltire, guid luck wi’ that!

      Aye and guess who is paying for this foreign 3 ring circus, remember folks about the 1 in 4 scottish wains in poverty!

      Aye an’ anither chance tae dip intae yon muckle trough tae dae up winsor castle, meantime Bothwell Castle left tae rot an’ ruin!

      Rant ower, I’ll go an’ git ma boonie blue bunnet!

    50. heedtracker says:

      SLabour owned Scotland like a fiefdom for 70 years, even so, the new new guy is the saviour?

      Richard Leonard?
      16h16 hours ago

      “Our politics are about ending poverty, solving the housing crisis, investing in public services and bringing real change to Scotland.”

    51. heedtracker says:

      Westminster will never shut down the devolved assemblies. Its the perfect tool to govern in the provinces.

      Only a yoon calls the nation of Scotland a province:D

    52. heedtracker says:

      Richard MacKinnon says:

      To be fair NI is a province, governed by a nutcase loyal like this, who cant tell who’s who, in the royals groveling stakes

      Arlene Foster ? @DUPleader Congratulations to HRH Prince Harry and Megan Markle on their engagement. Wonderful news this morning! 10:21 AM – Nov 27, 2017

      She’s deleted it now, to be fair

    53. Ken500 says:

      Scottish water is still in public hands. How ignorant are these people. Scotland has a separate education system. Broader based. Colleges and apprenticeship.

      Where is the list all the good things the SNP Gov has done.

      No student fees, lower loan debt, extended broadband, social care, nursery care, OAP plus passes, built essential roads, railways and bridges. Mitigated Westminster cuts, no bedroom tax. Invested in renewables, ship building and BiFab.

      Scotland will a different place, going in the right direction. Independence.

      The lying Vow. The Labour Party stopped all legitimate powers for Scotland.

    54. schrodingers cat says:

      looks like oor dick’s dogma is about to be run down by his kharma.

    55. Capella says:

      The only guaranteed way to bring lasting change and social justice to Scotland is to be Independent and manage our own affairs.
      Does Richard Leonard understand that? Not likely.

      His Wikipedia entry informs us that he co-founded the Keir Hardie Society in 2010, along with Cathy Jamieson. Maybe he plans to promote Keir’s long cherished ambition to deliver Home Rule for Scotland. Or maybe not. Maybe he just plans to be the umpteenth Labour politician to betray the legacy of Keir Hardie for Westminster’s gain.

    56. Ken500 says:

      Labour’s policies are about colluding with the Tories and abstaining. They could have voted the Tories down by now. Down and out. All they are interested in is keeping their cushy seats and their privileges. The only way they will change is if there is a threat to lose their seats. Westminster fiddles while the economy burns. Thatcher scorch and burn policy in Scotland. Only prevented now by the SNP Gov and the threat of Independence.

    57. Richard MacKinnon says:

      27 November, 2017 at 2:02 pm

      You say the “SNP Scots gov is doing everything humanly possible to be good government…….”. Maybe you are right. Maybe the SNP government are doing as well as can be expected in a devolved assembly. But you are missing my point, which is, that devolution is a unionist tool to govern in areas of the country where governance is difficult and made more difficult where there is long term recession, which in turn leads to poverty which in turn leads to nationalist aspirations.
      The solution (to unionism) is devolution. Made even easier if you can get the nationalists to do the governing for you. So, ‘Dont blame us, you have your own government’. Sound familiar?
      The SNP is now in a trap and it cant get out. They are running Scotland, which means in practice, no more than, the arbiters of the share out of the block grant. By putting a gloss on the relevance of Holyrood and their self importance as its government, the SNP are only making themselves appear, gradually more and more ridiculous.
      I know you cant accept this Heedtracker but, forget The Vow. I know it was a desperate lie. But what is the point in looking back. It is never going to change anything.

    58. Arthur thomson says:

      They are malicious liars as Ken500 states above. Leonard is Corbyn’s Britnat man in Scotland. They are a pair of malicious liars backed up by a collection of clowns.

      What will it take for the Scottish working class to see Corbyn and Leonard for the frauds they actually are? What will it take for the left in Scotland to disown them?

      Truth is that the left in Scotland have the same slave mentality as the people they corral into voting for them.

    59. heedtracker says:

      Does Richard Leonard understand that? Not likely.

      Red tory unionism in Scotland is no different from Colonel Ruth’s, the BBC, meeja moguls etc.

      They just will not allow a booming Scottish economy, independent of England, if only because a lot of the English will start acting up too.

      If the UK is about anything, its about keeping London and south east of England very very rich.

      You cant fool the children of the revolution. Sorry T Rex came on the radio just there:D

    60. brewsed says:

      Ooops. Must have pasted twice above.

      Meanwhile, are we being squirreled? Is the announcement of the intended nuptials between an American actress and a retired soldier intended to distract us from something? Has the Maybot been rebooted after a software upgrade, it never was millennium compliant, including new maps database with a lot less pink bits and the Republic of Ireland a separate country?

    61. While we can all laugh at Leonard and Labour here in Scotland.
      My real concern is, even if we accept that Leonard has
      no chance of becoming first minister.

      Labour may persuade enough people with help from its Tory and Libdem friends will do whatever it can to damage the SNP electorally here in Scotland.

      As for Leonard and Corbyn’s attempts distance themselves from the policies of Blair/Brown with and their promise to reverse these policies.

      Leonard as party member will have been quite happy to have donated money as well as campaigned to have a Blair/Brown Government elected.

      Just as Corbyn didn’t appear to have any problems standing for election on a Labour manifesto which included those policies he now condemn.

    62. galamcennalath says:

      Here’s a suggestion, prompted by some Twitter chat.

      All prospective political candidates in Scotland, at every level from council to EU, should sit the same exam testing their knowledge of devolution, which policies are devolved/reserved, what responsibilities each level has, who is accountable to them, what financial powers each level has, etc.. The resulting scores should be made public.

      Any who refuse to participate would be treated with due suspicion.

      Margaret Curran comes to mind, when she was in politics. She more than any other politician at the time, clearly did not have a scooby about what was devolved or reserved. The problem continues among many others, with Labour being the worst.

      How can they do their jobs when they don’t actually know what someone in their position is supposed to have influence on?

    63. Famous15 says:

      Leonard does not know that Scottish Water is already under public ownership.WOW! How can he lead Scottish Labour if he does not know something ss basic as that.

      While I am here could I say that the SNP government are correct to keep the governance pf the police at arms length. The Scottish Police Authority and HM Inspectorate of Constabulary have first dibs on oversight. Why? Because in a democracy operational control of police must be distant from politicians.

    64. Dan Huil says:

      He’s not the messiah, he’s just another britnat boy wonder!

      Holy britnat balls-up, batman!

      Alfred, the brexit mobile!

      Sir, might I suggest more snake-oil on the bat-pole?

      Fangs ain’t what they used to be, Alfred!

      Sir, in that case might I suggest we pray for Empire2.0?

      Eh? Don’t we still have Empire 1.0hhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

    65. CapnAndy says:

      I see the Herald has Leonard ‘Breathing new life’ into SLab.
      I suggest that if he wants to do that he also needs to reach for a defibrillator.

    66. heedtracker says:

      Just as Corbyn didn’t appear to have any problems standing for election on a Labour manifesto which included those policies he now condemn.”

      England’s the only place that counts in this farce union and the English, bless, are majority centre right.

      Even if JC is the messiah of SLabour, the English wont vote for him. All he can do is flip flop like a FibDem. Look at him on scrapping English studento fees, past and present? Chaos.

      Look at him on Trident nukes, JC’s at the top of CND, but he wants to buy Trident 2.0, dump them in his Scotland region but just never launch an actual nuclear strike on anyone, maybe…

      Scots know this.

      SLab’s a wasted leftie vote in Scotland, not just a waste of space.

    67. Mik Johnstone says:

      Man, you gotta give em Points for Lying … Sorry, i meant Trying …. ahem…

    68. Bob Mack says:

      In our hour of need he cometh. Accept the fact that he obviously knows nothing about Scotland as being a minor blip.

      Here is a man who will lead us to the land of milk and honey, but will enter it himself whilst we wait outside.

      Whilst Scotland drowns under the dictates of Westminster ,he will aid your buoyancy by handing you an anvil.

      Scotlab ,you have excelled yourself yet again

    69. Dr Jim says:

      I’m going to be fair here and say much though I despise what Kezia Dugdale did with her lying and her total incompetence
      she’s ten times the politician Ricky Leonard is or will ever be because she could do it with an almost straight face and she actually believed some of the nonsense she spouted
      yet they still knifed her in the back because she couldn’t do what none of them could do, so they’ve gone ahead and (elected) sorry, imposed a Corbynite loser on an about to be totally and completely divided party because this guy will be seen through quicker than a jist washed windae

      Have a good look at him every time he’s asked a question he can’t answer, the man turns bright red and gets angry at the questioner

      Another fake just like Corbyn who’ll probably last about five minutes before even Neil Findlay’s plotting against the very guy he plotted WITH to get rid of Kezia Dugdale
      If they threw out Neil Findlay at least they could keep losing in peace without being bullied about it

      Honeymoon’s over for the SNP,,, again and again and…dear oh deary me

    70. galamcennalath says:

      heedtracker says:

      JC … wants to buy Trident 2.0, dump them in his Scotland region but just never launch an actual nuclear strike on anyone

      Aye, he might not, but his successor might! Having them at all is an affront to human decency. Having them but insisting your neighbour houses them and takes greater risk is astonishing brass neck. That is unless you deem your neighbour to be expendable.

      Our lads were first over the top at the Somme. Our lads were left behind at St Valery. And all of us are placed on the front line of the UKOK’s WMDs.

      Wake the fck up, Scotland.

    71. CameronB Brodie says:

      A seasonal celebration of this glorious announcement? How’s about a choral classic?

      “Ringing of the Bells” seems apropriate.

    72. Capella says:

      He is committed to keeping Scottish public utilities in public hands, even when they already are in public hands. Patronising idiot.
      He reminds me of that other professional anti-Scot, Samuel Johnston, and his definition of a patron:

      Is not a patron, my lord, one who looks with unconcern on a man struggling for life in the water, and when he has reached ground encumbers him with help?

    73. Bob Mack says:

      “A wise man talks because he has something to say. A fool talks because he has to say something” Apt I think.

    74. Liz g says:

      Richard McKinnon @
      Trying to follow yer comments but I am not sure what it is you think is to be done?
      So could you clarify for me please?

      Are you sayin never vote SNP and have Holyrood shut down and this is the circumstance which will bring about independence,
      Faster Safer and in a Stronger way than….
      The current Holyrood mandate?
      Or even at all?
      If so…
      In that instance who is it that you imagine will stand on a manifesto for an independence referendum ?
      Who could myself and all the others possibly vote for?
      And if there is once again only Westminster are you really sayin that, that Parliament will vote for and enable another Indy ref?

    75. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Once more proof that NorthBritLab exists in a permanent state of self-induced delusion, now hoping that the Islington Saviour (who is clearly a know-nothing as far as Scotland is concerned) will deliver up enough idealistic and unsuspecting young voters – cheered on by political useful idiots like Cat Boyd – to land their branch manager the long-coveted top job in Jockland.

      Seeing the litany presented by Stu here just makes me weep. Mostly from laughter, but with a wee tear for the aforementioned young idealists if they let themselves be conned into having to endure their own miserable cycle of hope followed by betrayal and despair.

      What puzzles me most of all though is how the ever-faithful press can keep on mindlessly recycling this loyalist garbage with an apparent straight face, yet don’t seem to grasp that no-one (especially their dwindling readership) can take them seriously any more.

    76. Lenny Hartley says:

      Re Harry’s burd, Manx Radio at Lunchtime were discussing her ahem (sorry Lesley Anne 🙂 ) colourful acting past, according to them it was all over American and Irish news channels when he started going out with her.
      Can’t remember anything here saying she appeared in a few low budget Porno movies, reminds me of the Time that I was in Italy in the 90’s and papers were full of Fergies Porno star boyfriend.
      Surely with all the tittle tattle in the broadsheets never mind the tabloids there would be something !
      Wonder what his Dad thinks? Is he still in the Army ?

    77. Petra says:

      Sometimes I think that the best thing that could happen is for our SNP MPs at Westminster and those at Holyrood to down tools and walk out. Set the cat amongst the pigeons. See Tory and Labour faces when they have to take over the reins and of course witness the ensuing fiasco if Labour was in charge. If the Tories were still in power in London, Davidson would be propped up of course and given a few extra crumbs to keep the Scots ‘happy’. In oblivion.

      On the other hand that’s exactly what Westminster wants and it goes without saying that the Scots would never forgive the SNP.

      All we’re left with is trying to get the word out there against all odds, such as the biased MSM and an increasing volume of people moving from England to Scotland.

      We’re also up against pure ignorance. I was talking to a teacher in her 30’s recently. She’s considered to be a bright spark, is compassionate and so on, but has no interest or knowledge of politics. She said to me she quite liked “that Ruth Davidson person. Liked her attitude.” Now with 10 minutes to spare and trying to refrain from going into a political rant where would you start other than mentioning a couple of videos to watch. And would she?

      We have to continue, every last one of us, to attempt to convert at least one person each. Get data / facts on to this site, buy the National and the Sunday Herald and support the SNP. Join and donate. Or just donate.

      More than anything I’m hoping that Stu has been working on something, up to date, for us to fire through letterboxes. Sorry for putting the onus / burden on you Stu X. We shouldn’t be waiting for a referendum to be announced. We should be getting information out now, or as soon as, right across Scotland whether it be in the form of a book or a vast number of ‘do you know’ leaflets (SIC could also think of producing leaflets). People need time to internalise information, do their own checks and so on.

      We’d need a load of money of course. The Unionists have millionaire / billionaire backers, access to dark money and propaganda companies working online. If it wasn’t for the Weir backers handing out the odd million here and there, sometimes in the form of a loan, we’d be up sh*t creak without a paddle, as the SNP raised a paltry £95,000 last year.

      If Stu is planning to produce something for us to use he should tell us how much it will cost and we should start fundraising continuously, say with the aim of raising £1 million over the next few months. More or less depending on what he reckons he’ll need. £2 million?

      Between one thing and another, Tories / and Brexit, I doubt we’ll ever experience a more advantageous time to win this battle. The Tories (or Labour) and Brexit are going to totally destroy Scotland (and the UK) and those who remain ignorant, like the teacher mentioned previously, are going to blame the SNP. Following that our Parliament could be dissolved with the help of the DUP. Imo this could be our last chance, so let’s get the finger out and get moving with the key aim of enlightening the Scots, sooner than later.

    78. Brian Powell says:

      Looking at the dependence on tactics and lack of substance from Leonard it is clear he would not be up to protecting Scotland’s interests.

    79. heraldnomore says:

      I see the fragrant Arlene has congratulated Prince William on his forthcoming nuptials. Probably couldn’t even name the Queen’s XI, or their last manager.

    80. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Dan Huil @ 16:27,

      More phooey from Hoey.

      Glory be, a Trump mini-me!

      Seems she has a NornIrn background. Why am I not surprised? (What is there about that place…?)

    81. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Scottish Labour have done terrible damage to Scotland and the people of Scotland.

      The Labour party relies on the less politically aware and the poor and less well educated to support them they then hammer them.

      On a happier note who is up for a party to celebrate the royal engagement?……..

      Listen you can get back to me on that.

    82. dandy dons 1903 says:

      This Leonard fella is just another britnat/englishman on the make in Scotland pissing all over Scotlands right to be a independent country free of the shackles of a “union” that mostly benefits England. Just another conman like that other uber british nationalist Corbyn.

    83. velofello says:

      Commenting on proceedings at Holyrood Richard McKinnon advises..”try to see the funny side…”.

      I do indeed increasingly see the funny side at FMQs, a trend actually, of Tory behaviour.The Tories seem to have a strategy of banging desks, shouting, guffawing, led by the ever smirking Ruth Davidson and sidekick Carlaw. Murdo Is Fraser a serious politician or been given the role of playing CoCo? A Tory strategy to lower the tone, the gravitas of our parliament? Observe the behaviour of the other opposition parties, they listen, they behave in a sober, serious manner. Well maybe not Kez.

      The SNP have to play the hand they have been dealt. They must stay within the budget decided by their opponents at Westminster. Refused the power to borrow for infrastructure development, and yet – rescued the Edinburgh trams; new Forth bridge; Aberdeen by-pass; duelling the A9; Prestwick airport; NHS performance; childcare; renewables energy.

      Compare the above with the shuddering financial incompetence of Westminster.Have you any idea just how horrendous Brexit is going to be for the wage/salary earning classes, manual and of the professions?

      And so to the dyed-in-the wool persons who auto-vote for the Tory candidate, you may well not appreciate what you have at Holyrood under the SNP until you have lost it. A few hundred shares here and there won’t cut it with the Westminster Tory barbarians. You too will be expendable victims to greed.

    84. Morgatron says:

      Now we dont really expect them to be honest when Slabour are heralding in their new leaders , because if they did the headline would be ‘SLab We Are Pure Shite’ top to bottom and at the next election we may just scrape home in front of the Lib Dumbs.

    85. Muscleguy says:

      When Leonard was employed by his union did he not have members who were employed by Scottish Water?

      I was all of six when we emigrated to NZ. I didn’t come back to live here until the end of ’98. Yet if memory serves I knew SW was still in public hands before we moved. Because I paid attention to water privatisation as I was opposed to it in London.

    86. Sinky says:

      The would be next First Minister campaigned against Scottish self government proving that he prefers Tory rule to Home Rule.

      Despite all constituencies voting to Remain, not one Scottish Labour MP supported Ian Murray’s recent amendment to remain the customs union and Labour whipped their MPs and Labour front bench voted WITH the hardcore Brexiteer Tories to drag the UK out of the customs union.

      Labour voters should read the manifesto next time. It was for Brexit, no freedom of movement (which automatically rules out the Single market) and avoided any commitment to the Customs Union.

    87. galamcennalath says:

      Secret Brexit papers have allegedly been released …

      … what will they reveal? That we’re all stuffed? No news there then!

    88. schrodingers cat says:


      re- mps walking out of westminster.

      i’m not against this but it is a use once nuclear option. it will happen, i believe, but only when the time is right, perhaps during the indyref2 campaign etc.
      for the moment tho’ we should keep our cards close to our chest, we will only win our independence if we play our trump cards at the right moment. Choosing the right moment will be nicola’s perogative and largely guess work. unfortunately, hindsight is the only exact science

    89. Les Wilson says:

      Since Leonard is apparently help in high esteem in the Labour party, and is now leader of the Scottish branch.

      My first question to him is, what will he do to ensure an enquiry
      into the apparent illegal PFI scheme Slab brought in to North Lanarkshire?

    90. Az says:

      that was brilliant and had me chortling all the way down 🙂

    91. heedtracker says:

      galamcennalath says:
      27 November, 2017 at 3:48 pm
      heedtracker says

      With Brexit already diminishing the UK in world affairs stuff, they’re going to want Trident 2 all the more. Its a giant ticket to the captain’s table that our imperial master baiters will never give up, red or blue tory.

      Only problem for them will be where to stash Trident 2, if/when they do lose control of Scotland as a region.

      France’s Trident nuke base in Brest is not that different geographically or geologically from the English south west coast along to Plymouth. No doubt that the good folks of Devon will embrace the 19,000 jobs SLabour goons say Trident brings to Argyl.

      That was likes of SLabour greats Ian Davidson and Jackie Baillie, who never lie:D

    92. winifred mccartney says:

      The amazing Mr Leonard – Mr Fix it – last week at FMQ’s it was pensioners eating or heating – but pensions are a reserved matter.

      Today its Scottish Water – he does not know it has always been in public ownership in Scotland.

      Where has he been? How can you lead a party in Scotland and be so ignorant.

    93. The fact is that – maybe, just maybe – some time in the far future it may well happen that the then current leader of Scottish Labour becomes the First Prime Minister of Scotland.

      But not before Scotland becomes an independent country, the SNP dominates for a decade, Labour detoxifies from the closet Tories infesting it now, politics normalise and the SNP, achieved its core objective, slowly fades in the sunset.

      Only when Scottish Labour returns to be what it’s ought to be they may get to have one chance in hell.

    94. Gary45% says:

      “DICK” Lennon, the name says it all.

    95. Clootie says:

      To follow the Spartacus theme…”I’m the next First Minister”

    96. geeo says:

      Dont be stupid, Clootie…”I am the next First Minister…”

    97. Meg merrilees says:

      My cat is the next First Minister

    98. auld highlander says:

      That lot are living in cloud cuckoo land.

    99. Andrew says:

      Agree with most above, Leonard as far as I am concerned is an ignorant busted flush, but look over there everybody, the country is back on track, another royal wedding in the offing, BBC can’t contain themselves, new underwear required, is it just me but the country is totally f****d (UK) but it’s alright now cause prince harry is getting hitched wtf!!!!

    100. heedtracker says:

      Corrado Mella says:
      27 November, 2017 at 5:58 pm
      The fact is that – maybe, just maybe – some time in the far future it may well happen that the then current leader of Scottish Labour becomes the First Prime Minister of Scotland.

      It could happen but keep in mind, you cannot have political parties of one sovereign nation operating in another.

      After Scotland does become a nation state again, there is going to have to be a great deal of political changes made across the board.

      Its probably one the greatest anti Scots democracy incentives for Scottish mp’s, msp’s and the activists across the red, blue, yellow tory spectrum, self interest. Because lets face it, most of them really want to be in Westminster. where real stardom/power still lies.

    101. Skip_NC says:

      You know, Douglas Alexander may well turn out to be right. In twenty or thirty years time, it will be Iain Gray’s turn to be Twig Office manager again. By then, the SNP might, possibly, be running out of steam. If Iain Gray can avoid sandwich shops during that campaign, he may well pull of a historic victory and become Labour’s next FM.

    102. Cuilean says:

      Meanwhile, Paul Masterton, one of the 13 Scots Tory MPs elected this year, gushed on The Daily Politics Show to Jo Coburn and Labour’s Kate Hoey, when asked, “What effect with the engagement of Harrymmegan have on ‘the mood of the nation”:

      “I think it’ll be a really nice positive mood for everyone to look forward to and you think, when you look back to when Willnkate got married, my wife and I actually made the trip down from Scotland and stood on the side of The Mall, when they got married, and it was just a really nice, happy occasion, and I think there’s a lot of doom and gloom in the news at the minute, so I think the nation could do with a little happy lift.”

      That’s it, word for word.

      Masterton went to £12K per annum George Watson public school, in Edinburgh. It’s a registered charity which avoids paying tax. He ousted Kirsten Oswald from east Renfrewshire, who had in turn ousted Labour’s Jim Murphy. Jings, the folks o East Refrewshire are gey fickle. Mind, the Labour candidate in 2017 was Blair McDougall… The thing is; Masterton was working for London lawyers, Pinsent Mason, at the time, in London, when he said he travelled down specially….

      Masterton then waffled on about ‘Industrial Strategy’, without actually saying anything. Lawyers are good at this. Apparently, ‘we need to decide what kind of country we want to be. Do we want to be dynamic and at the forefront of technologies or rest on our laurels and just meander through.’ He actually states, “Yes, Brexit changes things but the Govt is going to utilise what opportunities come from that.” WTF? It’s the same old political Brexit waffle, waffle waffle sans facts or detail.

      Masterton also lies to Coburn that during the Indyref, commercial activity in Scotland was hindered, when commercial data, since then, proves that commercial activity actually increased, during Indyref1. So much for uncertainty.

      Coburn then introduced an Irish Senator (Neil Richmond) and Masterton took a back seat while rabid royalist, Kate Hoey from Norn Ireland ranted at the senator. She’s the lovely labour MP who said in the Mail recently, that the Irish Taosaich “should shut his gob, Brexit’s none of his business”. Charmant.

      Eventually Masterton was asked by Coburn his thoughts about the Irish Border and he answered, verbatim:

      “I think at the moment when it comes to Northern Ireland, we’re still dealing in a lot of empty platitudes about ‘no hard border’, treating Northern Ireland the same as rest of UK but no-one’s actually saying, what that means. And I think we’re seeing very clearly why Northern Ireland wasn’t a big part of the Leave campaign because they had no idea how to deal with it if they won. But what I do actually agree with Kate & others on, is this is one area where the solution, if there is one, is intrinsically linked with future trading relationships and this is one area where the EU’s insistence on splitting it into 2 parts simply doesn’t work.

      Coburn: Do you accept the idea that there could be a separate arrangement for Northern Ireland?

      Masterton: I’m not particularly comfortable with that. Aaah… I think that that gets a little bit messy in and on itself..

      Coburn: It would solve the problem? Wouldn’t it?

      Masterton: Well, I think it depends exactly what that differentiation..

      Hoey (Labour) frantically intercedes to save her unitary state supporter: It would cause lots of other problems!

      Masterton, saved by and echoing Labour Loyalist Hoey: It would cause lots of other problems.

      That’s when Coburn quickly realises they have strayed onto dangerous territory and she swiftly heads back to the safe arms of the Southern Irish senator with a question instead of asking Masterton and Hoey, What other problems’. The answer of course is the Scottish issue and our upcoming 2nd (last) indyref!

      A special deal for Northern Ireland is going to mean that unitarian state adherents can no longer shout us down by saying ‘We voted as one country, the UK, and we leave as one country, the UK’.

      That’s why the both the tories and labour are desperately hoping to put off the Irish Border question right to the end of the Brexit process.

      Hoey then rants again to Irish senator that the Irish want a border only so they can pay for it! She ends by saying that Eire will choose to leave the EU with UK!!!!

      The senator calls her out on this as delusional as the last Irish poll showed 88% of Irish want to remain in EU!

      So neither Labour nor Tory want a border with Eire when we leave EU. How different from the project fear campaign during Indyref1 when Ed Milliband insisted there would be guards on the Scots English border! Chickens coming home to roost, I think.

    103. TheWasp says:

      Disreporting have just shown the labour in Scotland shindig from earlier. What an embarrassment of mediocrity on the that stage, Dick, Monica and Red Leader himself, all spouting Jackie Baillie

    104. galamcennalath says:

      ” It was always there for all to see, the great Celtic stone cross barring the way to Brexit. Finally, as crunch day nears, the government and its Brextremists have to confront what was always a roadblock to their fantasies. They pretended it was nothing. Reviving that deep-dyed, centuries-old contempt for the Irish, they have dismissed it with an imperial fly-whisk as a minor irritation. No longer. “

      … nicely put!

    105. jfngw says:

      King Jeremy the first intends to introduce his common policy prayer book to Scotland unite the UK into a single philosophy with no deviants.

    106. Artyhetty says:

      Have I just read that right, that the ‘Scottish cooperative party’ have MSP’s and MP’s and councillors in SCotland and Labour Leonard has them on his twitter page. Never heard of such a party or am I completely missing something?

    107. Fred says:

      Come back Kezia, all is forgiven!

    108. Liz g says:

      Meg Merrilee’s @ 6.19
      Well I don’t know where you get that notion from

      My Dug is the next first Minister…

      He’s been tae aw the marches and only ever drinks Scottish Water.

    109. Iain mhor says:

      I suppose @Richard McKinnon echoes the feeling of many and the meme of the “Pretendy Parliament” Not so much the view of most ‘Yessers’ here, though, there are a few posters who seem, shall we say “Tired and disillusioned” with the whole affair.
      The only question is “What is the alternative?” To go quietly into that good night? Surely not? Is it really that Scotland would be best served dismantling itself and folding into the brave new Nation of “Great Britain” or somesuch.
      Perhaps in a few generations it will all be bred out and assimilation will be complete. It’s not impossible. I think it’s a fair debate. Why can’t we all just be one nation.

      Well, I’m not sure there is a diamond rebuttal to that. Of course, let us not stop there. One Pangaea, one world nation and Utopia living in peace and harmony. Who wouldn’t vote for that? Not me.

      That’s not where we are though. Not even close. There is another view; which is that the world and it’s nations fragmenting and creating federations and coalitions, gradually leads to the isolation of “rogue states” They become easier to identify and villify. The more readily to be seen as the aberration and not the norm.

      Is that working? I like to think so. So that’s my stance. Cut loose, do it better. Or damn well try to.
      A crappy failed nation or a bright new one, or just another mirror of the system we tried to escape. Independence is going to end up one of those scenarios. I don’t know which.
      But I do know which one it will be by not trying.

      I’m not too tired and disillusioned yet to fall back into that! All empires collapse to their centre, that is what history shows us. We’re in it watching it.
      As for the “Pretendy Parliament” it’s a start, it is not yet a failure, it is not perfect, it is barely a decade into fighting for a better future for Scotland. Something which was never done in my lifetime.

      “There is a tide in the affairs of men, Which taken at the flood, leads on to fortune. Omitted, all the voyage of their life is bound in shallows and in miseries. On such a full sea are we now afloat. And we must take the current when it serves, or lose our ventures”

    110. Street Andrew says:

      After the Kinnock coronation disco you’d think this ‘next first minister’ thing would be an opposition line.

      But no, they just keep on being embarrassing.

    111. cirsium says:

      well said, Iain moor, 7.05

      Definitely let’s cut loose and do it better.

    112. Artyhetty says:


      Yep and these private schools with their charity status can also be funded by the lottery, as one near us had a state of the art science centre built with lottery money. Likely other have also funded projects via the lotto. Nice eh.

    113. Dan Huil says:

      @Iain mhor 7:05pm

      Timing is everything. We should enjoy the current spectacle of britnats systematically destroying their own “precious” so-called united kingdom – god knows we deserve a laugh or two – then, when the situation in Ireland really gets serious, and it will, after a no-deal or extremely hard deal, Holyrood must vote against the brexit deal, and then, when we are ignored, call indyref2 and, if necessary, recall all SNP MPs from Westminster.

      We’re not going down [to britnats’ level] without a fight.

    114. crazycat says:

      @ Artyhetty at 6.58

      We’ve discussed this on here before, I’m sure, but always as an o/t aside, so not surprising if you didn’t spot it.

    115. CameronB Brodie says:

      Re. Mr Leonard’s confusion over reserved matter, e.g. Scottish Water.

      1. Who is briefing him?

      2. Will he correct himself?

      3. Should the BBC not have highlighted this error of fact?

    116. jfngw says:

      The next Scottish First Minister, he’s seems even less informed about what is devolved, what is already in public ownership than the Brexiteers understanding of the EU.

      Heard a Brexiteer on the radio today basically saying that Ireland is not an issue and the Irish government should basically just do what they are told. They are inferior obviously and don’t understand the Irish issues, the arrogance of the Brit Nat.

      I’m now in royal wedding overload, the BBC in full BritNat propaganda mode, just off to throw up.

    117. Petra says:

      We’ve got 20 extremely lackadaisical Scottish Tory and Labour dumb clucks at Westminster supporting a hard Brexit against the wishes of a majority of their constituents, who additionally don’t seem to know what’s reserved and what’s devolved, Corbyn who doesn’t know that we have our own unique legal system in Scotland and now Leonard who doesn’t have a clue about Scottish water. A cabal of Unionist ignoramuses wanting to run the show along the lines of their thicko English bosses with every decision made favouring England to the detriment of Scotland.

      Part of the Corbyn / Leonard speeches were shown on STV news earlier tonight which included the water faux pas (with no correction). I also picked up on him mentioning that energy should be in public hands? Is Corbyn, if he gets to rule the roost, going to hand over control of our oil and gas sector to Holyrood?

      It’s high time that someone in Scotland put Leonard to the test. Ask him what he’s going to do about the Labour PFI botchup, if he’s even aware of it, and more than anything his views on Trident, fracking and Brexit, as examples.

      And if anyone can get their hands on video footage of the Corbyn / Leonard speeches made today I reckon they’ll be interesting to take a look at. Dissect.

    118. bjsalba says:

      Just listened to some presenter on R4 encouraging the person they are interviewing to whine about being kicked out of the City if Culture Competition.

      After all the crap that the little Englanders have thrown at the EU it makes me sick to my stomach to listen to this unadulterated drivel.

      By 2023 the UK including Scotland is going to be out of the EU. The only reason that the competition was not stopped before now is that there was the possibility of a Trade Deal and some kind of relationship.

      Liam, Boris and David have opened their gobs and put paid to that.

      When are these stupid dingbat mugs in England going to understand that Brexit means Brexit. Out in the cold and dragging us with them unless we jump ship.


    119. Arthur thomson says:

      The whole point of making Leonard FM is to re-take control of Scotland. It has zero to do with introducing better policies, which is why they have zero policies. Labour is what it has been for at least half a century, a mafia operating a protection racket on behalf of the British state. It’s operatives are well rewarded if they succeed in whipping the suckers into subservience.

      Unlike Murphy and Dugdale, Leonard presents just the paternalistic 1970’s image that could sway the gullible like his boss is apparently doing. He will also be acceptable to Tories as the tame Labour type they know they can make a deal aith .

      Focusing on his ignorance and deliberate misrepresentations is not going to stop him. These will be covered up and twisted into positive characteristics.

    120. Glamaig says:

      winifred mccartney says:
      27 November, 2017 at 5:58 pm

      ‘Today its Scottish Water – he does not know it has always been in public ownership in Scotland.

      Where has he been? How can you lead a party in Scotland and be so ignorant.’

      Maybe he does know, but it suits him fine if a few low information voters think Scottish Water is not publically owned. Labour do this a lot, calling on the SNP to do things they know have already been done, or arent possible because they are not devolved. Have we heard anyone from the BBC challenge him on this yet?

    121. CameronB Brodie says:

      Iain mhor

      Perhaps in a few generations it will all be bred out and assimilation will be complete. It’s not impossible. I think it’s a fair debate. Why can’t we all just be one nation.

      Well, I’m not sure there is a diamond rebuttal to that….

      Our shared moral duty to protect the integrity of living (national) cultures?

    122. heedtracker says:

      3. Should the BBC not have highlighted this error of fact?

      They cant. Their task now is to make the new guy electable and the next Scots FM. Pacific Quay liggers only have to win one Scottish GE for SLabour and that’s it, all over for a Scottish generation, if there’s anyone left, after he wins.

    123. Richard MacKinnon says:

      Liz g,
      27 November, 2017 at 3:59 pm

      I do not comment to give advice. I comment to tell an unspeakable truth to Scotland’s nationalists..
      First. I voted Yes. I have campaigned actively for an independent Scotland since the early 80s. That changed on 18/09/14. The referendum result was No. Had it been Yes Scotland would now be an independent country. I believe the No vote is as life changing as a Yes vote would have been. I believe the No vote has secured The Union, for ever. I do not believe there will be another independence referendum in Scotland. No won. The unionists both in Scotland and down south know the significance of the result.
      I believe the SNP at MSP, MP level also know this. . They are perpetuating a myth. They talk up Holyrood as a serious entity (they all do. Tories and Labour included), but it is now no more than a relic of our referendum result: a vanity project, it gives the allusion of self government but it is an unnecessary tier of expensive government. I therefore think the SNP are frauds.
      Down south, the SNP talk about ‘looking after Scotland’s interests’ at Westminster, but thats a con too. They are playing the Westminster game. They are playing the unionist game by participating. They love it down there. Its a bloody good job.
      Liz g, the best advice I can give to you is, none at all. Dont be persuaded by any side. Dont be partizan. Look at politics with cynicism. (ok this is advice but you know what I mean).
      There are events in history that change things. Our referendum was one of them.

    124. heedtracker says:

      Maybe he does know, but it suits him fine if a few low information voters think Scottish Water is not publically owned.

      You bet he knows. Everyone knows. This is all part of it, yoon culture has to be seen to piss all over Scottish democracy.

    125. Richard MacKinnon says:

      27 November, 2017 at 4:17 pm
      “I think that the best thing that could happen is for our SNP MPs at Westminster and those at Holyrood to down tools and walk out”.
      Well done.

    126. heedtracker says:

      Liz g, the best advice I can give to you is, none at all. Dont be persuaded by any side. Dont be partizan. Look at politics with cynicism. (ok this is advice but you know what I mean).”

      Do nothing, is advice now Richard? Christ yoons are odd bunch of etc etc

    127. CameronB Brodie says:

      Richard MacKinnon

      They are perpetuating a myth. They talk up Holyrood as a serious entity (they all do. Tories and Labour included), but it is now no more than a relic of our referendum result: a vanity project, it gives the allusion of self government but it is an unnecessary tier of expensive government. I therefore think the SNP are frauds.

      On what do you base that assertion? Have you any experience in strategic planning or national government? Are you a reactionary?

    128. K1 says:

      No Heed, he argues ‘as the battle was lost the war is over’

      He’s hurting is all.

    129. Andy-B says:

      Ah Johann Lamont, it could be she wanted “something for nothing” or maybe she thought that Scots “were too stupid to run their country.”

      The London Labour branch office, should introduce the managers as the next back to the future FM of Scotland.

    130. Phil says:

      Glamaig says:
      27 November, 2017 at 7:43 pm

      ” … Have we heard anyone from the BBC challenge him on that yet.”
      Challenge Leonard that is – Oh Wait! Challenge anybody?

      Sunday 26 Nov Radio 4 22:00 news, a 4-handed interview straying onto Irish Border issues, I waited yet again and here it came ” Frictionless / undefended borders between neighbours are common round the world.” Asked where. “Well so many places, like USA and Canada.”

      Yesss! I have crossed and re-crossed this border countless times over several decades. Never once was I waived through. Always an armed security forces person asks who, where and why. Each passenger treated separately. That is the entry, often the exit, procedure one expects. It is not frictionless. Crossing is granted upon suspicion being allayed. NOT FRICTIONLESS.

      And not contested by the BBC woman in charge. Listeners round the world have been treated to this “Lots of places … ” lie. Again and again. How much longer?

    131. Richard MacKinnon says:

      Iain mhor,
      27 November, 2017 at 7:05 pm

      You ask ” Why can’t we all just be one nation”. I say, we are. We should realise it and get on with it.

    132. Artyhetty says:


      Thanks, I have missed this and will read the link.

      It is clear as day that London Labour are hoping that the people of Scotland are going to fall for their lies, again.

      Re;Arthur Thompson@7.42pm

      Absolutely, again, clear as day that Labour have kept Scotland poor, and begging with juuust (typo intended) enough crumbs to quell any major doubts about their actual intentions. We now know that Labour are another English establishment party, and it stinks to high heaven of the colonil mindset. Still after 300+ years it’s a hard one to throw off that’s for sure, but inevitable.

      Things have to change, it just can’t stay the same, otherwise things stagnate and fester and that is no good for anyone quite frankly.

    133. heedtracker says:

      K1 says:
      27 November, 2017 at 8:02 pm
      No Heed, he argues ‘as the battle was lost the war is over’

      He’s hurting is all.”

      He’s never voted SNP and did not vote YES. But if it makes him feel better, Rock will be clocking on soon, to tell us how we’re all screwed under FM Sturgeon, the great failure of the age.

    134. Glamaig says:

      Prince Harry’s next mission is to time the arrival of a baby for the end of March 2019 to distract from the chaos of the Brexit cliff-edge and provide plenty of UJ-waving opportunities.

    135. heedtracker says:

      You ask ” Why can’t we all just be one nation”. I say, we are. We should realise it and get on with it.

      “We” have never been one nation. Its always England, England first.

    136. Lenny Hartley says:

      O/T and I’m not starting a conspiracy thread, remember the crash between a helicopter and light aircraft in Surrey a couple of weeks ago, I have been checking out of curiosity the identity of the victims in the helicopter , apart from one from Northern Ireland who was a friend of Prince Chuck. No names have been released. There was a thing on Facebook a couple of days after the crash that speculated one was a senior Rothschild. What purpose would it serve for the establishment to keep secret names of people killed in an air crash? Anybody any idea?

    137. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Richard MacKinnon –

      Seems safe to assume you’re a ‘glass half-empty’ kind of a dude, eh?


    138. Petra says:

      @ Richard at 7:56pm …. “Petra says …. down tools and walk out.”

      Cherrypicking going on there Richard. A bit of a propagandist, lol?

      You’re also coming across as being a bit of a wimp IF you voted Yes in 2014. Just three years on and now we’re being swallowed whole with Brexit. Surely you can see that another referendum is on the way? Why would we give up now? Because you want Scotland to be part of the Union?


      Jeezo I’ve been watching a programme about sinkholes in England. Hundreds of them thought to be caused by old mines collapsing. God only knows how much fracking will exacerbate this major problem. Sometimes my heart goes right out to the ordinary English people and then I think FGS grow a spine folks and get out there and do something about it.

    139. Richard MacKinnon says:

      CameronB Brodie
      27 November, 2017 at 8:01 pm

      You ask “On what do you base that assertion? Have you any experience in strategic planning or national government? Are you a reactionary”?
      Question 1) See my comments above.
      Question 2) Yes.
      Question 3) Yes. I study history. I try and put events into a historical framework. When things happen I keep my mind open to the change such events may cause. My mind reacts. Therefore, I am proud to call myself a reactionary.
      Thank you.

    140. Richard MacKinnon says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      27 November, 2017 at 8:23 pm

      “Seems safe to assume you’re a ‘glass half-empty’ kind of a dude”.
      No. Im a realist. Do not venture into the desert.


    141. Richard MacKinnon says:

      Petra says:
      27 November, 2017 at 8:26 pm
      One womans wimp is another womans sensible pragmatic realist.

    142. Effijy says:

      Yes Labour only get away with repeating such ludicrous statements as the UK media refuse to show them for what they are.

      They did assure us though that Scotland’s oil would run out in the 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s, the 20 teens.

      I dare say that they can keep this going right up until 2050, with a little help from their friends.

      A red flag has always been a warning sign.
      Keep waving it.

    143. ronnie anderson says:

      I binned a Richard MacKinnon from months ago, seems he’s had a good airing today courtesy of Wingers .

    144. Gordon Forrest says:

      Many years ago there was a play /film on tv where Scotland was governed by a nationalist party. At one point one of the nationalist Ministers turned to his opposition counterpart who was waxing lyrical about when they were once again in charge and said “thats what I love about you lot. you are son Fu****g Gullible sort of sums up the present day does it not?

    145. dakk says:

      ‘No. Im a realist.’

      Your ‘reality’ is just a Britnat’s wet dream.

      Dream on.

    146. BBC.
      Aberdeen Labour councillors to remain suspended. “Labour’s Scottish Executive Committee said the councillors would be given the chance to show a commitment to challenging austerity during the budget process next year.”

    147. Liz g says:

      Richard McKinnon @ 7.49
      Thanks for your reply.
      I wasn’t actually askin for advice Richard.
      Just for clarification on what you were sayin.

      And it won’t come as any surprise (if I am reading you right)
      that I don’t agree with you.
      It wasn’t the referendum IMHO that changed things it was the Vow.
      The Union was over the day they made it.
      When there is nothing left but a promise to do something that is unachievable,when the offer is in the realm of a fantasy and that’s how far they had to go.
      This thing can only go one way.

      We can’t become what we are not and that is One Country.
      We could only ever be a Union, and if after 300 and odd year’s the Union canny be made to work properly, then it’s a Was a pretty fair statement to say it never will, and to explore something different in the way we organized ourselves with a view to making something better.
      And this Union has never worked for Scotland, there has always been an undercurrent of Scot’s wanting it ended.
      Just as there has always been a level of suppression in one form or another to preserve it!

      But when in 2014 the only thing left to try to keep the Treaty from ending was an Undeliverable Promise!
      Then it’s all over ….it’s unrecoverable.
      Everything else is just details.
      There’s nothing left to offer and half the Country isnay too happy with the Union..non too happy at all.
      We Don’t need to stay and we never have,and everybody knows this,the ability to leave the Union has never been in question, ergo ….Independence is never off the table!

      So if I were to be giving advice… When its dead the Best thing to do is bury it…..seems aboot right.

    148. Rock says:


      “He’s never voted SNP and did not vote YES. But if it makes him feel better, Rock will be clocking on soon, to tell us how we’re all screwed under FM Sturgeon, the great failure of the age.”

      Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex-)girlfriend, if reading the lying, warmongering British Nationalist The Guardian helps you keep sane, then I have no problem with it.

      But I fear it is making you insane.

    149. Petra says:

      @ Richard at 8:27pm …..”When things happen I keep my mind open to the change such events may cause. My mind reacts. Therefore, I am proud to call myself a reactionary.”

      Cmon Richard. Call yourself a reactionary? You supported Independence for over 30 years through thick and thin, voted Yes on the 18th September 2014 and then on the 19th September 2014 changed your mind. Since then we’ve had broken Vows, EVEL, Brexit, as mentioned already, DUP involvement and the EU Withdrawal Bill with all that entails, to name but a few. Does that not constitute a ‘change’?

      You come across as not so much a reactionary, as someone lying in a supine position semi-comatose.

    150. Graeme says:

      That was quite funny to read – but to be honest, Leonard is more likely than any of the others to increase their vote.

    151. Rock says:


      “Anyone who opposes Scottish Independence lasts two years.”

      Westminster rule over Scotland has lasted a little bit more than two years, something like 310 years, and unfortunately I don’t see it ending anytime soon.

      If only Nicola had struck while the iron was hot and not spectacularly squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen, Scotland would have been on the verge of independence now.

      Clueless pompous armchair pundits, reserve your foul language against me until I have been proven wrong.

    152. Pacman says:

      Corbyn was unsullied by New Labour and was a constant critic of it. There was a genuine optimism when he took charge of Labour that there could be a change in Westminster politics and it could work at least better than it does now.

      However, Corbyn changing from being on the outside of mainstream politics to the heart of of it has shown that the optimism was misplaced as seen with Trident, amongst others.

      This is will be as well with their branch in Scotland as Labour Scottish branch will have to sing the same tune as Labour at Westminster if they want a credible change of winning at Westminster. That is the reality of Westminster politics where a unified and disciplined voice at all levels is required in order to avoid being attacked from it’s Westminster level opposition. This will result in the same useless Labour time-servers parroting the Westminster line and having no idea or caring about Scottish politics.

      As I had mentioned in a past post, Labour will gain Westminster MP’s at the expense of SNP in the near future but it is hard to see them gaining any tract at Holyrood. I think that assertion can be justified by the publicity stunt highlighted in this article.

    153. Liz g says:

      Ronnie Anderson @ 8.43
      Noo ye tell me!
      But I hear ye.

      Anyhoo it could be worse we could be discussing weddings..

    154. Petra says:

      @ Ronnie at 8:23pm. ….”Binned from Scot2 months ago.”

      Thanks for the heads up Ronnie. Probably the same one. I see ‘another’ has joined him. I’m off before the thread descends into the same boring old chaos. Night, night folks.

    155. Rock says:

      Richard MacKinnon,

      “Running a devolved government is in reality, doing the dirty work for which ever party is in power at Westminster. That is what devolution is.”

      As I have posted before, the SNP government should have resigned after the No vote.

      By protecting selfish No voters from the worst effects of Tory austerity, it is giving them the best of both worlds and making them even less likely to vote No if and when another referendum happens, which I don’t think is going to be anytime soon.

      Nicola can hardly utter the “i” word these days after being forced to abandon legislation for an independence referendum.

    156. CameronB Brodie says:

      Richard MacKinnon
      1. Your comment above is subjective assertion, not objective analysis.
      2. You hide it well.
      3. Glibness is not a virtue.

    157. Bobp says:

      Slab,the scum of Scotland.

    158. heedtracker says:

      But I fear it is making you insane.

      If only. Problem is Rock, for creepy old dingdongs like you and that other chap up there, is that all you want is for Scottish democracy to just stop, stop now and go away. And that Scots like me should be quiet now and accept UKOK rule.

      Not going to happen:D

      I’m not saying that anti democratic forces do not exist in Scotland Rock. Ofcourse they do, you for example nor that these forces can be seen at their fullest in Spain right now, as Catalonians are jailed and assaulted by riot cops in sexy black body armour, as the EU simply watches and ignores it all. It is entirely possible for Westminster to at least try and close down Holyrood, you can bet its being debate down there right now, a little Brexiteer bonus if you like.

      That’s the trouble with democracy Rock, its only been in Scotland for 20 years and we’ve nearly broken free of tory UK rule. You cant stop democracy, its always progressive, and in trying to block it, its you that’s insane Rock.

    159. Liz g says:

      Heedtracker @ 9.11
      You find Black (is there another colour) Riot geer Sexy?
      Do tell!!

    160. @Richie Makinnon

      you sound like Marvin the robot from `Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy`

      Marvin: I’ve calculated your chance of survival, but I don’t think you’ll like it.

      Marvin: [depressed] I’d make a suggestion, but you wouldn’t listen.
      [even more depressed]
      Marvin: No one ever does.

      Marvin: I have a million ideas, but, they all point to certain death.

      Marvin: Life. Loathe it or ignore it. You can’t like it.

      Zaphod Beeblebrox: There’s a whole new life stretching out in front of you.
      Marvin: Oh, not another one.

      cheer up Richie, Indy`s a commin !

    161. Rock says:


      “making them even less likely to vote No”

      I meant making them even less likely to vote Yes.

    162. Bob Mack says:

      “Why can’take we all be just one nation ?”

      Perhaps the best people to address that would be the Native Americans or perhaps the Aborigines. They too had their own lands ,till taken over by Empire or other conquest. Now they live mourning for a culture and a way of life surpressed and eradicated because it did not suit the incomers.

      Conquest by military or even political means seldom ends well for those who are conquered. We still have a chance.

    163. Rock says:


      “If only. Problem is Rock, for creepy old dingdongs like you and that other chap up there, is that all you want is for Scottish democracy to just stop, stop now and go away. And that Scots like me should be quiet now and accept UKOK rule.”

      Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex-)girlfriend, do you believe that there will be an independence referendum before Brexit has been completed and the UK is out of the EU?

      In my view, there is a 1% chance of it happening.

    164. heedtracker says:

      Liz g says:
      27 November, 2017 at 9:18 pm
      Heedtracker @ 9.11
      You find Black (is there another colour) Riot geer Sexy?
      Do tell!!

      Men in Black? no its not me but there is massive human psychology going on behind uniforms, almost since the beginning of time. But the nazi’s in particular loved black, fascists do tend to love dressing up in black, that’s why the Spanish riots cops are in black, not pink.

      Its even in fiction, Darth Vader style and it didn’t end very well for him, or the nazis.

    165. ben madigan says:

      Petra mentioned “DUP involvement” – presumably with reference to PM May’s government and brexit.

      read all about the great humiliation of the UK PM,her government, Westminster MPs (except the SNP)and the voting public!

    166. Liz g says:

      Heedtracker @ 9.27
      Nicely answered….LOL
      Mibbi Riot geer is also something Scotland can do differently.

      Although I must admit, I have often wondered, while we are on the subject!
      Do police Scotland dress like the Met escorting students on a walk when it’s an Old Firm game?
      Anybody know?

    167. Brian Powell says:


      “Corbyn was unsullied by New Labour and was a constant critic of it.” Corbyn got his ‘career’ in Westminster saying, I don’t agree with …….

      He is in CND but supports the renewal of the nuclear arsenal, he seemed to offer all those new Lab voters and No Brexit, then supported it through Parliament.

      Instead of coming out with a clear policy from the start Labour turned and weaved with the wind of where they thought public opinion was going. Still nothing clear.

      He supported re-unification of Ireland but Labour has no policy on NI with Brexit.

      Easy to say he doesn’t agree with x or y when he doesn’t need to do anything about it.

    168. ronnie anderson says:

      @ ben madigan You’ve over payed the DUP by £9billion they were over payed at £1 billion ( monies still in the treasury LoL ) .

    169. ronnie anderson says:

      @ liz g As you’ve seen with our Yes rallies Police Scotland wear their usual uniforms Stab Vests are normal , but where trouble is expected no doubt they will have Riot police suited & booted on close standby .

    170. heedtracker says:

      Liz g says:
      27 November, 2017 at 9:49 pm
      Heedtracker @ 9.27
      Nicely answered….LOL
      Mibbi Riot geer is also something Scotland can do differently.

      You can get an idea of what a country is like by how their cops are dressed, and armed.

      Cops have to be tough, its a tough job ofcourse. I mind in the US, a lot of states like their cops in jackboots and very tight gear, enforcing the Law. But then so do nazi’s, gay porn art icons, Spanish riot cops, to batter the living shit out of seps, in style.

    171. ben madigan says:

      @ronnie anderson – you’re undoubtedly right. It’s still far too much.
      In my defence I can only say Maths was never my strong point. I’m a sorta word and picture person!

      Corrected now!

      I hope you enjoyed all the other words and pics in the post!
      I understand westminster is voting to sanction the £1 billion in January 2018.
      Ochone!Ochone! A further sign of Westminster’s humiliation if it comes to pass!

    172. Graeme says:

      I think R McKinnons rationale is a bit strange (fucked up would be a better description) so he loses a battle gives up the fight and joins the enemy

      Thank god there’s not more of him around

    173. galamcennalath says:

      Some Brexiteers saying NI can’t have customs between itself and the rest of the UK because most of its trade is with mainland Britain. And this is a hurdle to a completely open border within Ireland.

      That same style argument gets used about iScotland. UK internal market bullshit. They say Scotland can’t be independent after Brexit because if it were in the EU or EEA it would mean customs between Scotland its biggest trading partner, England.

      This argument revolves around the Tory obsession with commerce, trade, making profit. However more fundamental things, more important even, are at stake. Peace, in the case of Ireland. Democratic self determination for Scotland. Quality of life for both.

      Ok, so a hardish border between NI and England, and between iScotland and England, will have a short term negative economic effect. However, in the long term accepting a border with isolationist England will bring far greater dividends for its neighbours who will be linked to a much bigger market, the EU.

    174. ronnie anderson says:

      @ ben madigan The DUP are oan tae hee haw as there is no Stormont assembly & they cant give £1 billion to James Brokenshire NI secretary , they’re between ah rock an ah hard place . Nth Irish people have been taking Sth Irish citizenship for a while now & more will be applying nearer to Brexit date .

    175. Sinky says:

      heedtracker says: @ 27 November, 2017 at 7:52 pm

      BBC / STV failing in their duty not to mention or seek clarification from other sources on Scottish Water being a public sector body.

      Are they protecting Richard Leonard as well as Ruth and her Tory MPs when they mislead public such as over broadband roll out.

      Bias by omission is the unionist press’s game plan but our national broadcasters should have higher standards.

    176. Thepnr says:

      Well so far Richard Leonard just 9 days into the job has showing himself to be well somewhat confused.

      First off he tries to claim the credit for a successful Scottish government intervention to help rescue Bifan from administration. Next up he makes a speech insisting that Scottish Water should be in public hands when it already is in public hands.

      Can’t say I’m impressed so far, new boss same as the old boss. Pretty useless as far as I can see, still shame we never got Sarwar as the new boss. These poor Labour voters that elected Leonard as leader probably went for the best of a bad bunch.

      Doesn’t seem to have made much difference since both are useless.

    177. heedtracker says:

      Are they protecting Richard Leonard as well as Ruth and her Tory MPs when they mislead public such as over broadband roll out.

      BBC as corrupt as its gets now. They’ll be getting more and more desperate as the Brexit abyss gets closer. But tory liars are tory liars, red and blue, STV, BBC, you name it.

      This one cropped up on Rev’s twitter timeline today. Holy UKOK crap.

      Kirstene Hair MP?
      Follow Follow @Kirstene4Angus

      Great news from Digital Minister @MattHancock – as the UK government step in to ensure that Scotland is not left behind after @theSNP fail to deliver the broadband speeds we require.

    178. CameronB Brodie says:

      “Men in Black? no its not me but there is massive human psychology going on behind uniforms, almost since the beginning of time.”

      I’ll not look for it now but there was a paper that I didn’t post, when it was kicking off in Catalonia. Anyhoo, Pierre Bourdieu reckons para-military police uniforms are a direct form of symbolic violence. I don’t think you need to be a genius to figure that one out though, IMHO.

    179. Marker Post says:

      Pete Wishart ready to for contempt of parliament proceedings against David Davis, for heavily redacted analysis papers on impact of Brexit, according to the Guardian.

    180. heedtracker says:

      Anyhoo, Pierre Bourdieu reckons para-military police uniforms are a direct form of symbolic violence. I don’t think you need to be a genius to figure that one out though, IMHO.

      A reflection of symbolic state violence, against its own people, that it fears.

      The Gestapo wore black, the SS black, they were all created by the nazis to attack German citizens.

    181. ben madigan says:

      @heedtracker – just to add to the list. The now disbanded RUC in NI wore black.

      @marker Post – sincerely hope MWishart manages to press ahead

    182. ben madigan says:

      @heedtracker – just to add to the list. The now disbanded RUC in NI wore black.

      @marker Post – sincerely hope Mr Wishart manages to press ahead

    183. Arthur thomson says:

      Generations of subjugation are not reversed in a whole population overnight. All we can do is to determine NEVER to give up and to support the SNP in their considerable efforts to improve the quality of life in Scotland. We are engaged in a mammoth task and have achieved a great deal by purely peaceable means. I have no doubt we will achieve much more.

      In a few short years, with a minimum of power the SNP have made Scotland significantly better than it ever was, better than the unionists ever grudgingly allowed it to be and increasingly more civilised than other parts of the UK.

      We know from personal experience, and can read here in some comments, that there are people who can’t help but shit in the nest – for reasons of their inadequacy I can only guess at. But that is the case in any community. In any struggle there are always people who would rather accept their status as inferiors and try to gain some miserable advantage by selling out their peers than struggle to throw off the yoke. That is true of all struggles throughout the world. It is not a Scottish trait.

      Are there yet enough Scots who have the self-belief to reject the lies they are being fed by those who want to exploit them? That really is the only thing that ultimately matters. All the historical stuff, the strategy and tactics are interesting but it is only when enough people develop a backbone that independence will happen.

      Imagine the pain Mandela must have felt to know that many of his own were supporting the South African regime. Imagine if he had given up in the face of that. He didn’t and nor will we. We have to go on informing and educating in the face of the barrage of lies until we are the established majority and take back our independence.

    184. Calum McKay says:

      My next door neighbour’s wee Westie has more chance of being Scotland’s next First Minister than Richard Leonard!

    185. Shug says:

      See the bbc is keeping the Scottish water comments off the news

    186. Sandy says:

      Just listened to ITV news at 10. 20 mins of an english royal engagement. Step-father delighted. Rest of world put on stop.
      Fewer myths reported, tho’.

    187. heedtracker says:

      Sandy says:
      27 November, 2017 at 11:23 pm
      Just listened to ITV news at 10. 20 mins of an english royal engagement. Step-father delighted. Rest of world put on stop.
      Fewer myths reported, tho’.

      As Brexit goes to rat shit. You have to hand it to our imperial masters, they are fcuking desperate.

    188. ronnie anderson says:

      What is it with the SNP interviewees Michelle Thomson had a chance to spike Richard Leonards Scottish Water diatribe .

    189. jfngw says:

      The subtle (or not) arrogance of the HIGNFY BBC types. Comment regarding Hammond cough sweety joke at budget, quite clever they think.

      Same joke a few weeks ago by Sturgeon at conference was risible and pathetic. My impression is that good old Hislop, although trying to give the open minded liberal demeanour, is in fact a died in the wool public school boy Brit Nat.

    190. Liz g says:

      Ronnie, Heedtracker and Ben.
      Thanks for the information.
      Having been at our Marches and seen footage of the OO marches,I did wonder about the football especially the Old Firm.
      Because I suspect that the Met are ” at it” by regularly dressing like extras from Star Wars.
      There is no real need and they are just doing it for intimidation.

    191. Iain mhor says:

      Just to clarify, the debate I mentioned and “Why can’t we all be one nation” thing (should really have been inverted commas originally) That was was not my personal question per-se. Rhetorical and one I’ve heard in many places, not just in reference to Scottish independence.

      There are many, people who are not remotely interested in, or even understand the minutiae.
      Thought provoking was my intention.
      How would any of us respond to it? Think of a simple justification. It will make you re-evaluate your approach I’m sure. It can’t all be hardcore politics for yer maw or granny.

      As for the ‘breeding out’ that was merely facetious.
      But, it can be observed anywhere in history. I give you Australia, Canada, the USA ad-infinitum.
      The comment didn’t come from some personal, hardcore belief in eugenics.

      So anyway, 1% for an Indyref eh? – So yer saying there’s a chance hen? Get in ya dancer! ?

    192. Thepnr says:

      Yaaawwnnn. Bedtime I think.

    193. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m lost for answers as to why British Labour have not spotted this is the time to support Scottish independence, in the run-up to Brexit. This approach would deal the Tories a near-fatal blow, IMHO. The door would then be open to consolidate, re-evaluate and re-form England, where their support lives.

      Perhaps they are introverted English nationalists before they’re egalitarian international socialists, after all?

      P.S. All for one and one for all. We all drown together comrade…pooling and sharing…Better Together!

    194. CameronB Brodie says:

      Iain mhor
      I hope I didn’t come over as abrupt, that was an honest and thought-out reply.

      Protecting cultural diversity might be a bit of an abstract concept but it helps to ensure bio-diversity, knowledge-diversity and diversity of practice. Probably other vital stuff I’ve forgotten, as well. These are all, pretty much, considered essential and beneficial to practicing an inclusive and sustainable approach to living.

    195. Dan Huil says:

      From Fintan O’Toole [Irish Times]

      “When people are screwing up, they tend to take their rage and frustration out on their nearest and dearest. If, as seems increasingly likely, the European Union summit on 15 December does not give the go-ahead for talks on a post-Brexit trade deal, we already know who’s going to get the blame.

      It will be all Ireland’s fault. The Sun this month gave the taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, fair warning, advising him to “shut your gob and grow up” and stop “disrespecting 17.4 million voters of a country whose billions stopped Ireland going bust as recently as 2010”. Boris Johnson, in Dublin, delivered a slightly more diplomatic version of the same message. The Irish should stop worrying about a hard border being reimposed on their island, trust all the lovely reassurances they have received from the British government and make the necessary declaration that “sufficient progress” has been made on the issue for substantive talks to go ahead.

      This is probably not going to happen. Ireland may well be plunged into calling a snap general election this week, which in itself will make any major shift in its approach to the Brexit talks before 15 December even less likely. No possible outcome of that election will weaken Irish insistence on the imperative of avoiding a hard frontier and the need for the British to come up with actual proposals about how this is to be done.

      As things stand, the December summit seems likely to say that enough progress has been made on two of the key preliminary questions, the divorce bill and the mutual recognition of the rights of expat citizens.

      But Ireland will be the spoke in the wheel. The verbal missiles that have already been tested will then be launched across the Irish Sea. A whole country will join the ranks of saboteurs and renegades, without whom the Brexit project would be proceeding triumphantly.

      To grasp the full stupidity of this situation, remember that Ireland is actually Britain’s best friend on the other side of the negotiating table. This is partly because, before the Brexit referendum, Anglo-Irish relations were warmer than at any time in the long and often bitter history of mutual entanglement. The two governments worked hand in glove on the Northern Ireland peace process and developed a genuine trust. They also co-operated very closely within the European Union. But even leaving friendship aside, Ireland has an overwhelming interest in making Brexit as painless as it possibly can be. A bad Brexit will destabilise Northern Ireland and damage the Republic’s economy, in which most small and medium-size companies depend heavily on the British market.

      It is thus quite a feat for the Brexiters to turn their most sympathetic ally into the scapegoat for their own most egregious failures. They’ve pulled it off by utilising their most remarkable skill: sheer incompetence. They have known since 29 April, when the European commission issued its negotiating guidelines, that credible proposals on the Irish border were a basic condition that had to be satisfied before trade talks could start. This could not have been more explicit.

      Time after time, the lead EU negotiator, Michel Barnier, has made it clear that “the unique situation on the island of Ireland requires specific solutions”. But in any case, one would expect Britain to be just as insistent. It has grave responsibilities to its own citizens in Northern Ireland and to the Belfast agreement, by which it is legally and morally bound.

      Yet the British have done essentially nothing. Johnson’s referendum stump speech boasted of selling French knickers to France and boomerangs to Australia, but even he did not anticipate one of the biggest export successes of Brexit: selling blarney to Ireland. In six months, Britain has produced one flimsy paper on the border question, published in August to almost universal derision.

      It claims there will be no hard border – indeed, no physical border infrastructure whatsoever – because the EU is going to agree a lovely free trade agreement with Britain that will be just as good as the single market and the customs union. Asked about this document by the public accounts committee at Westminster last week, the best the head of Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, Jon Thompson, could manage in its defence was that “opinions vary” as to its merits.

      At that same hearing, the woman charged with planning for Britain’s post-Brexit borders, Karen Wheeler, was asked an apparently soft question: “Obviously, we have the situation of Northern Ireland and the land border there; we have 300 crossing points where people and goods can freely move. From your point of view, in your team’s planning, what are the specific challenges associated with planning for these changes between the UK and southern Ireland?”

      Her reply was breathtaking: “I am not really able to say. That area is not within the scope that we in the border planning group have been working on. The arrangements on Ireland are still subject to negotiations and ministerial discussion, so that has not come within our scope at this stage.”

      What Wheeler was saying is that not only does Britain not have specific plans for the Irish border – it has not even begun to consider what those plans might be. When the PAC’s chair, Meg Hillier, suggested that this was “pretty poor”, Thompson jumped in: “We need the political process to go a bit further before we can fully get into understanding it.”

      The “political process” is the Brexit negotiations, in which Britain was supposed to table “specific solutions” on Ireland by October. That deadline had to be extended to mid-December. Yet here, a month before a decision has to be made, we have the most senior British officials stating openly that they still don’t understand the problem, let alone envisage a concrete solution.

      So what is the Irish government supposed to do? What happens with the border is a vital national interest. Ireland is desperate to hear what Britain has in mind. Instead, it has been told not to worry its pretty little head about it, but trust in the reassurances of its betters. It is being placed in the position of a 1950s wife, whose husband is betting the house on a horse race while he tells her, with increasingly irritation, to stop worrying because the nag is sure to romp home.

      Behind this reckless arrogance, there is an assumption that Ireland is an eccentric little offshoot of Britain that must shut its gob and stop asking awkward questions. It is, in fact, a sovereign country with the full backing of 26 other EU member states – and how strange it is that we have reached a point where this comes as an unpleasant surprise to so many people in London.”

      How, when witnessing Westminster’s arrogance and ignorance towards Ireland, past and present, can any Scot not wish the Republic well in its fight with British nationalist scum, and not hope that Scotland takes heart from the Republic’s stance? If there are such gutless Scots then truly they are “tractors”.

    196. Dr Jim says:

      Those of us who cared about Scotlands future as a country went out in 2014 and voted YES
      We weren’t at the pictures and saw a rubbish film and decided we wouldn’t go again because the cinema was rubbish
      we went back to see the next film that we were interested in because the idea of going to the pictures was good

      The nutters who scamper around the internet claiming they voted YES and when they didn’t win decided that the English parliament rule suited them down to the ground are an absolute shower of scumbag liars touting the most infantile propaganda claptrap Iv’e ever heard in my life and totally worthy of the Labour party, but probably in truth they are the pretendy socialist RISE who’s aim is to ruin the system so nobody wins giving them in their deluded minds a chance at power

      They have no interest in Independence whatsoever unless Colin Fox says so and they hate the SNP *just because* exactly the same as the Labour party and most of you will have noticed whitsherface who writes in the National who’s decided Jeremy Corbyn is the one for her now until Independence just happens all by itself magically

      Yer disrupters on WOS are these people, they’re useless to all of us and detrimental to the country but these people exist in every country, hateful little nasties that civilised societies must tolerate because if we don’t, we become like them
      Although I have to say given that I’m not perfect I’d be happy to slip up every now and again and lose a few of them

      By accident you understand

    197. Dan Huil says:

      @Dr Jim 12:35pm

      Well said, Jim.

    198. Still Positive says:

      Dr Jim @ 12.35

      Totally agree. Well said sir. Respect.

    199. Dr Jim says:

      Thanks Dan

      The internet provides a great place for people to talk to each other about all sorts of stuff and to be fair most folk deal with that pretty well and try to control rushes of blood to the head every now and then, we’re not perfect but we try our best to be reasonable and tolerant of most points of view

      The nasties are just that, nasty for no other reason and they use the internet as a cover for their own inadequacies and cowardice as human beings, who would never dare to talk to anyone in person in the way they do online for fear of that normal human emotion of a sudden rush of blood to the head of someone who’s tolerance of nasties might have been enough for one day

    200. ben madigan says:

      @ Dan Huil who wrote “How, when witnessing Westminster’s arrogance and ignorance towards Ireland, past and present, can any Scot not wish the Republic well in its fight with British nationalist scum, and not hope that Scotland takes heart from the Republic’s stance?”

      Today, as in the past, Ireland is to the forefront in the struggle to throw off England’s suffocating rule.

      We hope and expect Scotland will be the rearguard action that finally ends the UK set-up together with its faux “Britishness”.

      Scotland’s time will come shortly – May her people not be found wanting as they vote for freedom in IndyRef2.

    201. Liz g says:

      Iain mhor @ 11.46
      Well Iain…
      My position on the question of why can’t we all just be one Country ?
      Would be… How could we? & Why Should we?

      Firstly we are and have always been two separate Nations,it’s what we are.
      We have seen in both the Middle East & Spain that to encourage / enforce an Identity on to a people doesn’t work.
      I don’t know if it’s just human nature or not, but even the descendants of immigrants self identity with the “mother” country, EG Scot’s Americans!

      To the best of my knowledge most artificially constructed countries are only put together for political convenience.
      I don’t know of anywhere that it happed naturally!

      This question is usually put to Scot’s who don’t want to stay in the Union.
      I do note that “why don’t you want to be European,we are all on the one Continent” didn’t figure in the EU referendum much if at all!

      I have never heard anyone in Canada demand that Washington take all the revenue and power because they are all on the same landmass.. or vice versa….ditto Mexico to Argentina.
      Can you see how farcical it sounds when you transfer the proposal elsewhere, and these are much younger Countries!

      And the English never get asked do they want to give up being English…. Only when that’s a serious proposal and we are talking about “absolute” British identity could you get a true answer….but I’ll wager it will be no.

      Of what benefit would that be anyway?
      I presume that the English people like being English just as much a us Scot’s like being Scottish.
      Neither could, or should be made to give that up.
      What’s the actual point in doing so?
      And the fact that two very old Kingdom’s cooked up a trade treaty that’s lasted for a while… is no reason at all!

      Nobody would claim that if the UK/EU Treaties got old enough everyone should give up and become only European.
      And if anyone can’t see the flaw in that thinking, no amount of debate can help them.

      As to why!!
      Why Scotland should not go along with this “all one country” argument (legal stuff aside)?

      Well I would call it 300 year’s of experience.
      Given how this Union has turned out for Scotland,and how far back do you want me to?
      This is not a good arrangement for most of the people of Scotland and its just a Treaty agreement.
      So where is the evidence that “more” than a Treaty would be any better?
      When anyone who looks closely at it can see how bad this one actually is.
      We can never even trust that we could get sight of enough true information to make that choice.
      Under the current Treaty our contributions and resources are hidden from us.

      And I have never heard any mention of who exactly is to be giving up their sovereignty here…for this Britain of which you speak.
      Again ask an American to give up their “self evident truths” and hand them ALL to the Windsor’s and you would have some idea at least what you ask from the Scot’s.
      Will the English then be willing to remove their Queen’s sovereignty ?….because I have seen no sign of them entertaining that thought.
      They seen to support their current arrangements!
      Even in 2014 when they apparently wanted us to stay that wasn’t on the table.

      So what is on the table then…would be my question and I and many Yessers start with a very high bar.
      Starting with equality… Are the English willing? and even if they were actually that daft,from a Democratic standpoint there is no fair arrangement.
      So there really is only one solution to it all!
      Can you see what it is yet ?

      That’s what I would argue Iain.

    202. Iain mhor says:

      @Cameron B Brodie

      No problem at all. I caught the reference – familiar with your posts.
      It caused me to reread mine anyway though and decided there were elements which could perhaps be misconstrued.
      Always a difficulty knocking out a quick opinion piece in this format – it’s not a conversation.

      Far be it for me to not look in and post a link (I always like to see a wee link or two here)
      Not, philisophical humanities or Gustav le Bon 😉
      But one from the ‘Intercept’

      ‘The New Information Warfare’

      “Propaganda and information warfare was once the purview of nation-states, militaries, and intelligence services. Today, even ordinary people have become important players in these campaigns”

    203. CameronB Brodie says:

      Liz g
      The English identify as English, a good bit less than Scots identify as Scots.

      Choosing National Identity

      Survey Data and National Identity

      2.5 In broad terms, looking at the range of survey data, we can say that in England there has been a slow but significant shift towards people describing themselves as English, with a sharp jump in the mid-2000s. In Scotland, on the other hand, there has been no significant recent increase in people saying they are Scottish, but this is because such a shift had already taken place during the 1980s (Bechhofer and McCrone, 2008). In 2006, if we look at ‘natives'[5] – those both born and living in England or Scotland – 37 per cent of the English said they are only or mainly English, 46 per cent equally English and British, and 13 per cent only or mainly British. The comparable figures for Scots are 73 per cent, 21 per cent and 3 per cent.

    204. Meg merrilees says:

      Marker Post

      I heard an interview with Steven? Kinnock tonight. He said that the Brexit committee is meeting tomorrow ( today) and Hilary been, the chair is pretty p-eed of at David Davis and the redaction of the documents.

      He can appreciate that there are economically sensitive details and other important, confidential studies BUT this is the Brexit committee and the whole point of Brexit is to ‘take back control’ for the WM Parliament. I think the feeling is pretty unanimous that the Government is in contempt of parliament by failing to comply with an instruction from Parliament which came about as a vote recently in which the Government was defeated… I think they actually abstained from the vote because there wasn’t a Tory whip on it, BUT under the WM rules, that counts as a defeat.

    205. CameronB Brodie says:

      Iain mhor 😉

    206. Meg merrilees says:

      Sinky and Thepnr@ 10.31

      At the recent GE my sister ( a Daily Heil reader) got all excited by Corbyn’s policies and proudly informed me that at long last she had decided who she was going to vote for…

      Who’s that then?
      Jeremy Corbyn
      Oh, because of his policies..
      What policies?
      Well, I think his idea to nationalise the water supply and remove prescription charges for starters…
      Have you not heard of Scottish Water? Our water IS ‘nationalised’ In England it’s privatised and regarding prescription charges, we haven’t paid them for years.
      Oh, I thought that was only because I’m a pensioner!!!!!!!!
      Those are all SNP policies and you already benefit from them in Scotland…
      Oh well, I guess I’ll be voting SNP then…

      There must be loads like her and the silence of the media is a deliberate attempt to keep them ignorant, as ignorant as Leonard is about Scottish Water and T May/ Kirsten Hair( coincidentally,my sister’s MP now) are about who controls the roll out of Broadband.

    207. Meg merrilees says:

      Re Leonard’s gaffes!

      Don’t forget he rattled on about Pensions at FMQ’s last week. Nicola slowly let him in to the secret that actually pensions are not devolved BUT if he wanted to stand with the SNP about this matter against WM she’d be glad to welcome him on board.

      So that’s 3 major gaffes in 9 days – a record so far.

    208. Thepnr says:

      @Meg merrilees

      Kirstene Hair unfortunately is also my MP, she replaced Mike Weir and Angus had had an SNP MP since the constituency was formed in 1997.

      I’m fairly confident though that will be her first and last term, so far she has failed to show any signs of ability to represent those that voted and didn’t vote for her.

      After Brexit hurts the farmers I’d guess she’ll be toast.

    209. Liz g says:

      Cameron B Brodie @ 2.04
      Thanks Cameron..
      It would be interesting though to see how the numbers changed for England if their Englishness was under discussion with a view to being British only…..
      Would it no?

      I think they are only so relaxed about it because the two terms mean the same thing for them.
      That’s what I think the ” proud Scots but” mostly don’t get.
      Imitate English culture and you can be a ” Lesser Brit” but never a real one…. that’s for the English only.

      And not even in a nasty way….go to England open yer mouth and they identify a Scot,not a Brit.
      And I certainly do it the opposite way, I always think English first and never Brit.
      Then funnily enough I then find myself trying to identify their accent… don’t know if everyone does this I’ve never thought to ask,and the Glasgow accent is so distinctive I’m pegged right away..sooo nae clue there then!
      This I what I mean by its probably part of the human condition when assessing who is in front of us.
      And why forced or artificial assimilation of whole people’s fail.

    210. Iain mhor says:


      Good succinct answers, it is, as ever, not my question, no need to convince me. I hope it sways others.
      On another note:
      It’s a shame we’ve all got less cheery seeming here lately.
      C’mon people- one shot at Independence, really?
      That was it was it? A bit of a jolly for a couple of years and the ball’s up on the slates?
      That is not how you gain independence. You never stop. Go ask the world..

    211. Liz g says:

      Meg Merrilees & Thepnr
      Are they gaffs though?
      My mum repeats things from the telly as fact.
      This is where her knowledge in a conversation mostly comes from.
      And sometimes I can see her thinking, who would know better?? you
      or the leader of Labour,who is in a position to know these things.
      Why would he say it if it wasn’t true…..and the best one….
      They are not allowed to lie on TV they would get into trouble!

    212. Liz g says:

      Iain Mhor @ 3.03
      Thanks Iain I did realise that you were just posing the question.
      I was writing for anyone who read it and was mibbi interested in a couple of potential answers.
      As you say no harm in exploring the what ifs while we are waiting for the actual date to be set.
      As for less cheery well tis a bit of a slog waiting on Westminster to finish messing up.
      Probably worse for those of us who keep such a close eye on them…..
      But communication is being kept up and friendships made so I guess we can have a bit of a moan and throw out some snark.
      I am sure a date will change all that and then we will all be focused.

    213. William Wallace says:

      Silly O’clock crew holler!!! 🙂

    214. Liz g says:

      Hiya William

    215. William Wallace says:

      Hi Liz 😉

    216. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Sock socky sock-sock.

    217. Al Dossary says:

      Re the verbatim repeating of the Daily Heil, Express and BBC propoganda.

      To the best of my knowledge my mother is an independance supporting pensioner, and a very intelligent one at that (former school dux etc).

      Two things stick in my mind from the last year about politics.

      When I broached the subject of Brexit she stated that she had voted to leave because “we can’t get rid of all the rapists and criminals from over there”. Gobsmacked by this statement i asked – Do you know of any? Have you ever heard of any? So basically you are repeating the headlines of the newspapers, all of which are lies. – “I don’t want to talk about it” was the retort.

      More recently “I see Nicola has put up the price of drink”. So I then spent the next few minutes explaining exactly what was going to rise in price, and what was not.

      So for the Lanarkshire boys, Buckfast will not change in price as it already is above minimum pricing, but the cheap gut-rot white ciders, Whisky and vodka will rise.

      This is an intelligent, independance supporting pensioner yet she has succumbed to the non stop propoganda machine.

    218. Dorothy Devine says:

      Liz – most excellent!

    219. starlaw says:

      Lots of people are posting about low moral etc. Well look at the calendar its the SAD season but in about three weeks we cross the Nadir and is back up the hill to summer. Keep you
      r peckers up peeps.

    220. galamcennalath says:

      CameronB Brodie says:

      The comparable figures for Scots are 73 per cent, 21 per cent and 3 per cent.

      That’s 73% say they are Scottish, 21% say Scottish and British (proud-Scots-buts), and 3% British (OO etc).

      That ~25% / quarter of Scots who consider themselves British is a recurring figure.

      To my mind, that is the kernel who will never vote YES, and the three quarters are open to persuasion.

    221. Breeks says:

      With regards to “sexy” black riot gear, quaint fact, the archetypal fascists, the Nazi’s in WW2 had their uniforms designed by Hugo Boss.

      But to me, modern police riot gear is fundamentally different and looks like an amalgamation of matt black spray paint and army surplus kit.

      When you see Western soldiers in the Middle East, with their high tech comms and weaponry, body armour, ballistic goggles, a keep your distance trigger-happy paranoia concerning the locals, and very little command of pigeon Arabic language, you’d have to wonder whether the locals could spot the difference between a soldier and a real life Robocop.

      The point I’m making, but not very well, is that the “sexy” uniforms were designed to intimidate and manipulate perceptions long before reaching the point of actual conflict, where “riot” control was handed over to the guys with machine guns, An intimidating presence of all-black riot police is quite a modern phenomenon which is actually quite menacing. These days, we seem to have “specialists” to control civil disorder.

      I suppose you could trace it back to Thatcher and the miners strike. Thatcher started re-equipping the police with army surplus kit, – actual soldiers in police uniforms.

    222. Legerwood says:

      Meg merrilees says:
      28 November, 2017 at 2:23 am
      Re Leonard’s gaffes

      I think the total is a bit higher if you include Saturday when the result of the leadership announcement was made.

      He tried to insinuate himself into the Bifarb outcome only to have the rug pulled out from under him when the GMB union released a statement praising Nicola Sturgeon and the SG.

      Then he talked about suspension of Kezia only to have his boss counter and him by stating there would be no suspension.

      Not a great start and he seems to be continuing as he began.

    223. galamcennalath says:

      Nana says:

      The now oft repeated tale of the impact of Brexit on Ireland. Very well put in this case.

      ” standard operating procedure for Brexit: Ignorance, followed by ineptitude, followed by nationalism “

      … that perhaps should have been “arrogance, ignorance ,,, “.

      The fanatical English Nationalist Brexiteers wouldn’t have got into this mess if they hadn’t begun with such an arrogant attitude. It was never going to be simply about ‘themselves’, it was bound to impact hugely on others (I include Scotland here). Their unilateral self centred approach is a disgrace,

    224. Ottomanboi says:

      RT is a tool of the Russian state according to Today presenter Nick Robinson employee of the British state broadcaster. Congrats to Harry & Meghan for providing more opportunities for fake news, gossip, tittle tattle, hearsay and speculation.

    225. Ken500 says:

      Barney crooked is still swanning about with the Provost regalia, in coalition with the Tories, despite being suspended from the Labour Party. Changing council meeting to suit the two jobs Tory to keep them in office. How can people vote for them.

    226. MJT says:

      @Al Dossary

      Your case, what you speak of, is not so strange. Propaganda is information. I work in care homes across Glasgow. So i get to meet a lot of older folks. They watch a lot of telly, on big screens. Some of em read papers. I’ve never seen a copy of the National. Express, Mail, Record, Sun…sure.

      I hear a lot of conversations about the world, the news, stuff in the papers. I don’t have a telly but i get to watch the news on TV whilst i work. I put myself in their shoes, i see with their eyes and listen with their ears. And i reckon if i followed their path to be where most of em are as they are. I’d be, without knowing, pretty damn susceptible to the propaganda myself.

      I know you didn’t mention care homes in respect to your mum, i just mention it as it’s how I get to meet older people. I know there are loads and loads of older folks who are totally switched on Peffers like, I’m not saying all old people by any stretch…i’m just trying to relate to your post. I’m just talking about day to day exposure to information for a lot of people…of all ages, is skewed towards the mainstream voice. Which we know is sympathetic to the status quo.

      We have to challenge that voice in our one to ones. Gently, with love and respect. We have time to do it. Nudge forwards slowly, let people do much of the work themselves, but be a guide of sorts. Be nice. Offer other information for their perusal…in a nice way.

      Know that folks can be defensive. My mum sometimes comes at me with questions about Brexit and Indy and her inquiries are shaped by what she’s got from the MSM. It don’t take much to upset my mum. I’m nice as pie, but i nudge her in what i think is the right direction. It’s working…so far so good.

    227. Les Wilson says:

      Is it just me or has the Alex Salmond show disappeared from RT.
      On Sky I cannot find it listed on the system.
      Any answers?

    228. Abulhaq says:

      Nicola Sturgeon has sent congratulations on the H&M engagement. On whose behalf? Hers or the SNP? Why say anything? We need an unashamedly republican party.

    229. jfngw says:

      How can the Irish refuse, the UK government has given a vow, they would never just say things then not implement them, would they?

      Fortunately I don’t think the Irish are as gullible as some Scots, if it’s not in writing and already passed through parliament, don’t believe a word of the promises, they have a track record on this.

    230. Highland Wifie says:

      A very interesting post MJT and a very wise one.

      You have explained very well the mindset of the older person who has been tuned to the MSM for so long with no access to a different voice. You sound like a very kind and caring person who tries to understand what it is like to walk a little in the shoes of the people you are caring for. Always a good place to start when you want to help people see life differently. It is often necessary to gain respect before people are prepared to listen to what you have to say. Parents sometimes find it hard to listen to their children when they have a different point of view.

      Softly softly etc. Far more effective than telling people they must be stupid/ignorant/out of touch.
      Small victories win the war. Just one person each is all it will take.

    231. Breeks says:

      galamcennalath says:
      28 November, 2017 at 8:23 am
      CameronB Brodie says:

      “….To my mind, that is the kernel who will never vote YES, and the three quarters are open to persuasion…”

      I don’t think it’s a matter of persuasion. Hard core unionism is a form of denial and mind control which would find it very difficult to sustain itself if it wasn’t endlessly propped up by the rancid BBC and UK media. The media in turn relies upon the UK “political placebo” parties like “Scottish” Labour, and the “Scottish” Conservatives to produce and maintain a steady supply of broadcastible domestic “Scottish” output to remind us all we are still all British and hope to persuade us that Westminster isn’t irrelevant to us. Broadcast what the SNP Scottish Government is doing??? You’re havin’ a larff mate!

      It is a very sophisticated mechanism which keeps Scotland in its place. If you shake off the ether and trouble yourselves to look, a brand new Scottish Labour Leader can be just as ill informed and unfit for purpose as Elmer Gray, Joanne Lamont, Murphy, Dugdale, Sarwar, Rowley, or whatever the new one is called… and it won’t matter a damn. They aren’t here to “run” Scotland’s Government, they are here to run interception for Westminster “governance” of Scotland. They are the distraction which diverts our attention from the conjuror’s hand on our wallet.

      For Labour or the Tory’s to join forces to oust the SNP government ought really to be seen for what it is; the removal of Scotland’s democratically elected government to be replaced with a puppet government loyal to Westminster, and kept in place by Westminster’s monopoly on broadcast news and propaganda. We will fare much better as a nation when we recognise “Scottish” Labour and the Tories for what they actually are. Democracy in Scotland? F__k orf! You’re havin’ another larf mate.

      I recall some comment about putting up a monkey in a red rosette for Labour and there would be Scottish constituencies who would vote it to office. How scary that is to the truth, but not for any allegiance to Labour. – it is widely understated how expedient and thoroughly useful that monkey remains to the Union.

      Even way back then, with the benefit of hindsight I now harbour doubts it was even about Labour. I think the media was already trolling us all way back then.

      The Union doesn’t need a Better Together campaign, it needs a Better Together Shopfront to stick a saltire on their Westminster vacuum packed produce that is then sold on to the unwary as “Scottish”.

      Leonard isn’t the new hope for Scotland. Leonard, or Dugdale, Davison or whoever, is just the wee saltire sticker stuck onto your UK political food parcel sent from Westminster. Don’t be fooled Scotland. The only food parcel that warrants a saltire is your home grown, organic, SNP governance.

      A hardcore Unionist in Scotland is not the enemy. They are just like Theodin, King of Rohan in the Lord of the Rings, buckled and grey, bitter and angry, given to darkness while under a malignant spell which steals his living essence and vitality.

    232. Davosa says:

      “No doubt that the good folks of Devon will embrace the 19,000 jobs SLabour goons say Trident brings to Argyl.

      That was likes of SLabour greats Ian Davidson and Jackie Baillie, who never lie:D”

      Think maybe Jackie Baillie was confusing jobs with her daily calorie intake ?

    233. Robert Graham says:

      The only way this labour clown is going to be First Minister is if

      The 45% collectively say f/k this give up and jump ship .

    234. John H. says:

      Thanks for the links Nana. I see from one of the sections in your James O’brien link that the “I’m a Celeb” producers are far from happy with Kezia Dugdale. They gave her a six figure sum (take note Rev.) for appearing on the show and she’s not delivering.Standing apart from the others, and not letting her personality show through.

      They don’t know her like we do. Ever been had.

    235. galamcennalath says:

      @Al Dossary
      @Highland Wifie

      My late mother was a long term SNP member and supporter of Indy. However she remained highly susceptible to ‘news’ based propaganda, not always seeing it for what it was.

      We’d be having a discussion and suddenly she’d come out with something she thought was a fact. I’d challenge it, where she hear/read that? The answer was always “in/on the news” ie radio, TV, newspapers.

      One area was immigration. She’d accept some of the tabloid fake news pieces as being representative of the real situation. And it wasn’t always easy to dissuade her from some of the false notions she was being indoctrinated with.

      I knew on most subjects she was informed and enquiring, but the power of the media to spread propaganda lingered.

      I think in the past folks did put more faith in the media. I guess that in the 60s, say, very few people would have doubted the accuracy of BBC news reporting of events. Many of us now know for sure some of it is bullshit and therefore treat all of it with suspicion. However not everyone has made the shift. And the shift is rarely absolute but is often partial and selective.

      The older you are, the longer you trusted the media. Once the trust has gone, it never comes back.

    236. heedtracker says:

      Great coffee time linksmanship Nana! used to be, open the Graun, look for The Graun says Scottish weather’s chilly news, now its look for Nana, btl WoS.

      SNP bad, but why wont they save us?!

      I’m also a, “if your opponent’s screwing up big time, let them get on with it,” kind of street fighter too:D

      “But, in the end, Brexit will damage the Scottish economy, whether Scotland is independent or not. And independence would be much simpler to manage if both the UK and Scotland remained in the EU.”

      To think we were so close to not having any to do with England’s glorious Brexit triumph. There would have been a huge spike in Brexit refugees from England, with Scots ancestry.

    237. MJT says:

      @highland Wifie

      Thanks. I’m very interested in people, and information and how we accumulate bias in our attitudes and opinions without even knowing.

      I really believe that most people, more than enough, can be led towards seeing that Indy is best for Scotland. But it has to be done with love, patience and understanding. And I mean all the demographics. Young old, English, Euros, all faiths, races, genders. We can totally do this.

      But we have to see what they see, hear what they hear…and be wise and lay our anger and frustration and contempt to the side. My mum used to buy the daily mail cos it had a good TV section. My dad buys the courier cos it has loads of local news.

      But, he is now gonna pay for an online sub to The National cos i bought the paper every day when i was visiting him last week, and i showed him storied and articles and columns that covered issues that he hadn’t thought too much about, that were not being covered in the Courier or on telly. And now he is more knowing and he likes that.

    238. heedtracker says:

      Abulhaq says:
      28 November, 2017 at 9:21 am
      Nicola Sturgeon has sent congratulations on the H&M engagement. On whose behalf? Hers or the SNP? Why say anything? We need an unashamedly republican party.

      One ridiculous problem at a time please.

      Harry Hewitt’s wedding will be costing us all about £100 Brexit millions, in a Brexiteer land of council’s, that cant be arsed to fund sprinkler systems in their blocks of flats, that go up in flames like roman candles.

      Rejoice. The royal yacht in Embro is stunning right enough.

    239. heedtracker says:

      Totally not reported anywhere in teamGB, from the beeb Scotland gimp network, to all the rest of planet toryboy’s meeja.

      Or how it works in our democracy.

    240. Ken500 says:

      What’s the problem but embittered unionist control by a bunch of lunatics who want to ruin the world’s economy,

      If Scotland doesn’t want Trident take it away. If Scotland doesn’t want to pay loan repayments on debts not borrowed and spent in Scotland. It should not have to. Hinkley Point, HS2, Trident and Heathrow just a total waste of public with feasible, cheaper alternatives. Etc etc. Scotland could have more money to spend on essential services and investment.

      The Oil & Gas sector being ruined with high Tory taxes. Fracking in the rest of the UK pays no taxes. Entirely tax free. Scotland paying more for fuel and energy because it is colder. Despite being in surplus and nearer the sources, The unit price should be lower. Investment should be made in the north of England and Scottish rail services to make journeys throughout Britain quicker. These journey take twice as long for the same, comparable distances.

      Why is there no cooperation with the Scottish Gov instead of the ignorant Westminster intransigence.

      Why are some people so negative. Is it the weather? The darkness of the winter. Support is still increasing. The SNP are still at 40%. Last council? vote up 6.9%. Brexit could bring Independence. Everything being put in place. Central bank, currency, talks with EU officials. The EU financed German reunitfication and other Independence movements in Europe. They could help Scotland and the world economy. Supporting Scotland Independent in the EU.

    241. heedtracker says:

      Every morn, I scoop up the “free” bundle of this Daily Heil production on the bus and chuck them in the recycle bin but this is funny. Poor Kez, she’s not earning her trash telly dosh now, cant she get anything right?

      Its actually quite funny that the telly people thought that a red tory might wind a blue tory, live on tv. Should have read WoS!

    242. David Caledonia says:

      Its interesting, just before the referendum i watched a little film on youtube, it was filmed around ibrox park, home of rangers, it was leading up to the football match that day, and everyone that was interviewed was against independence, a few even said if scotland became independent they would move to england, these guys where about 20 years old and as thick as shit on a barn door, they just spoke filth with vocabularies of 5 year olds, my impression of all the people interviewed that day was this, it came across that they seemed to think that the snp was some sort of catholic party, these where the same kind of people that appeared out the pubs in Rangers colours to attack the snp supporters at George Square the day after the referendum, a well organised show of anti catholic bile

    243. heedtracker says:

      David Caledonia says:

      I know a lot of Rangers fans in Glasgow who are 100% YES voters. There are thugs and goons everywhere in the UK. Keep in mind Glasgow voted YES, 2014.

    244. Bobp says:

      Les Wilson 9.20am. Alex is listed on RT on freeview.

    245. Mike d says:

      Exactly heedtracker,there are celtic and rangers fans who put Scotland first. And then there are the bigoted type with an IQ lower than room temperature.

    246. heedtracker says:

      Mike d says:
      28 November, 2017 at 10:42 am
      Exactly heedtracker,there are celtic and rangers fans who put Scotland first. And then there are the bigoted type with an IQ lower than room temperature.

      Aye but who gets the gimp media coverage?

    247. Robert Peffers says:

      @gus1940 says: 27 November, 2017 at 12:57 pm:

      “Mohammed didn’t appear on the scene until around the 6th century – what religious beliefs were held by the Arabian peoples before that?”

      I really wouldn’t know, gus1940. The point I was making was that Mohammed was only a prophet – not a God. Which means, even if you believe in Gods, that he was a man and he is thus dead and gone.

      Also I was making the point that his main claim was there was only one God. Now, far as I know, that God is claimed to be the same one the Christians believe in.

      So that means his followers believe in the same God as the Catholic Christians and the several shades of Protestant Christians and the several sects of Muslim One God believers.

      So the many followers of this one God, who all believe this one God is a benevolent God who created us in his own image and likeness, have for centuries been killing each other in the name of the same One God they all claim says murder is a sin against their own particular One God .

      All sectarianism, to my mind, is a form of madness and is totally illogical. Even the computer’s AI, (Artificial Intelligence), says in a strange computerised manner, “Does not compute”, and as its computerised voice gets faster and higher pitched, goes into complete meltdown and blows apart.

      That bit must be true ‘cos I saw it on Dr Who, Star Trek and several Hollywood movies on the BBC years ago.

    248. Fred says:

      Gary Robertson lightly grilled the right-wing & double-thick head of Moray District Council this morning, the budget looms & he wants more cash & threatens to declare his district bankrupt. He cites the revenues from the whisky distilleries to boost his case & actually made a good case for independence. This inept administration should be suspended & civil-servants sent in to run the council. Simples!

    249. Mike d says:

      Dr jim 12.35am. Excellent post.

    250. Highland Wifie says:

      Well done. Often my frustration gets the better of me and I get shrill.
      I will try to keep in mind your wise words!

    251. Joemcg says:

      Yet another lickspittle column in the proud scotchman by Mcgarvey or Loki praising the branch office. He’s purporting to be “in” the yes movement too today. It’s cringeworthy reading. I just wish him and Boyd would dissociate themselves with us toot suite. Fifth columnists. Boom boom.

    252. Bobp says:

      ‘re. N Ireland, when the time comes for a reunification referendum, Dublin should do what madrid and westminster done, and bus loads of voter’s up across the border. That’ll teach the barstewards.

    253. Dr Jim says:

      Some folk are suggesting that the SNP should be a pro republican party, well they are
      After independence Scotland will be a republic, it goes without qualification which also includes non payment of subsidy to the Royal family but that doesn’t mean anyone’s saying the Royals can’t come and go more or less as they did before or are less deserving of the respect that some people will always have for that institution

      The Queen or whomever replaces her will still be the English monarch and be welcomed as a visiting dignitary

      But she/he won’t be the Scottish monarch

      Fight the battles that are important to the country, the Royals isn’t one of them

      Prince Harry and his mixed race Roman Catholic fiance must be causing the Orange Lodge nightmares as to how to spin this as being OK with them, probably by saying he’s a minor Royal so Shhh! close your eyes and think of England at least the Queen’s still a Proddy which of course is embarrasingly untrue she’s Anglican which in effect is an English Catholic without the same rules because as everyone should know Brittania Waves the rules when it suits them which makes the whole sectarian argument just as stupid as the folk who believe in this shit

      The knuckle dragging sectarianists would support a monkey if they were told it was one of them
      Religion is only important to the people who use it to manipulate the hard of thinking into doing being slavishly devoted to the hand that weilds its use (especially if there’s votes in it)

    254. galamcennalath says:


      Re Pre Islamic religions. And well off the topic of Scottish politics!

      From what I have read there were and are a great many Abrahamic Cults in the Middle East. More than the three main Judaism, Islam and Christianity which evolved. And of course these themselves have umpteen flavours. In the Syrian conflict we occasionally hear about some others which still exist and have minority following.

      My understanding is that Muhammad himself was a Hanif which was yet another Abrahamic monotheistic cult.

      Historically it looks like there were a great many! Becoming successful appears to be dictated by becoming the official religion of a successful empire. Others remain the believe system of smaller isolated communities.

      Then, there also was polytheism, more prevalent away from Levant. The big black stone in the centre of the Grand Mosque in Mecca, the Kaaba, apparently has it’s roots in early pre Islamic pre Abrahamic polytheism.

      The uniting feature in all this, as Robert above says, is each sect assumes superiority over the others!

    255. Fireproofjim says:

      Some on here are urging that the SNP should declare itself to be an out and out Republican Party.
      Why? This will only scare off the many Yes supporters who like the monarchy. My wife for example has always voted SNP but is a monarchist. We need every vote we can get.
      This has been discussed many times on Wings and the sensible consensus always seems to be that it is question for after Independence.
      Anyway, many of the countries who we look up to are monarchies and are also the most democratic. Norway, Sweden, Denmark, New Zealand, Canada, and Australia seem to have no problem with being monarchies.
      When asked they mostly say that it keeps the head of state out of the hands of divisive politicians.

    256. galamcennalath says:

      Fireproofjim says:

      Republican Party … will only scare off the many Yes supporters who like the monarchy

      Very true. And the same could be said of many other divisive policies including nailing the banner to a position on the far left, or far right, or ultra green.

      There is one overriding goal / policy / aspiration / focus, and that is achieving full self determination for Scotland. We cannot afford to become fixated on areas which detract from that. Already the whole Brexit EU thing has caused potential problems with those who see iScotland in the EU and those who see it outside.

      We need to make the one big decision first. Then we will have the power and freedom to tackle the myriad of secondary big-ish decisions in our own time and in our own way. They have to be set aside meantime.

      I am always very suspicion of the motives of people who say … I support independence but only is iScotland is …. a republic, religious, socialist, green, etc etc.

      Support for independence should be unconditional IMHO. You either trust the Scottish people to decide what’s best for Scotland, or you don’t. And if you don’t, you must believe someone else should be making decisions for us.

    257. schrodingers cat says:

      for a summary of pre islamic religions, this is a good starting place

      Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy: Jesus the Myth

    258. Brian McHugh says:

      Google have bumped RT way down the search lists. If you search “Alex Salmond Show RT” you will find it.
      …alternatively, use a different search engine.

    259. admiral says:

      heedtracker says:
      28 November, 2017 at 10:14 am
      Every morn, I scoop up the “free” bundle of this Daily Heil production on the bus and chuck them in the recycle bin but this is funny. Poor Kez, she’s not earning her trash telly dosh now, cant she get anything right?
      Its actually quite funny that the telly people thought that a red tory might wind a blue tory, live on tv. Should have read WoS!

      The producers are obviously all Graun readers and have swallowed the Sev and Libby line of “Kez the political genius” whole. Well, ye ken noo, as we say in these parts! 🙂 LOL

    260. McBoxheid says:

      I see they are still using that “For the Many” slogan. Thing is they say it means for the many, but forget to add millionaires in politics and out. The ‘other’ many can gtf. The can’t actually do anything for the Tories, red or blue and are therefore irrelevant.

    261. heedtracker says:

      The producers are obviously all Graun readers and have swallowed the Sev and Libby line of “Kez the political genius” whole. Well, ye ken noo, as we say in these parts! ? LOL

      If its true, it is interesting that Dugdale is not opening to the audience. But this is hilarious,

      “The 36-year-old has hinted that her fee ‘is in no sense small’ for appearing on the show – said to be a six-figure sum – yet it seems bosses aren’t convinced she’s earning her dough.

      It had been hoped she’d stir up controversy, particularly with former politician Stanley Johnson, yet she’s remained somewhat held back, has been acting ‘superior’, and also hasn’t been performing well in the trials, leaving bosses frustrated.”

      Seems bosses actually thought a top SLabour politico might actually have a lot of political tension, between a very tory blue tory like Boris senior.

      As we all know, its really not like that, red and blue tory wise and its cost them £150k with low view figures. People learn about Scottish democracy today in all kinds of odd ways:D

      I mean what would Kez and Boris have to argue about, making a mockery of nascent Scottish democracy and Holyrood, tuition fees, Trident, lords reform, wars, tax havens, SNP hate?

    262. gus1940 says:

      RE Leonard’s Scottish Water gaff – given that he has been active in Trade Union/Labour Party business in Scotland for years is the gaff not evidence that he was reading from a speech produced by his masters in London without checking it for accuracy prior to opening his gob and inserting his foot.

    263. Petra says:

      Kez the ‘failure.’ Surely they were well aware of that, her track record, before they tried to induce her on to their programme?

      Keep it up Kez and get your message out to millions of youngsters and that message is that Labour are a bunch of losers.

    264. heedtracker says:

      Another Lab legacy. What will they do when Crash Gordo’s white elephants of rule Britannia all float off to Portsmouth is it. I remember them all booing FM Alex Salmond, on the beeb Scotland gimp network, 2014. Wonder if the laid off booed too.

      “Unfortunately, given the one-off nature of this large-scale programme, as the ships begin to be handed over to our customer we must inevitably reshape our business to remain competitive and take on new challenges, which we firmly believe exist for Rosyth.

    265. Abulhaq says:

      The religious history of the Arabian peninsula before Islam is rather patchy. It does seem that most Arabs were pagan. In the north forms of Christianity were prevalent and to the south Judaism. There were Jewish and Christian tribes of various shades of religious ‘orthodoxy’ and frequent conflict between them especially in Yemen where there were pockets of Ethiopian Coptic Christian influence.
      Arabia, particulary the west, was crossed by trading routes the ‘taxation’ of which by raids on caravans was lucrative for local tribes and clans.
      Muhammad belonged to the clan of the Quraysh who were expanding their territorial control into the western province of Hejaz where Medina and Makkah are located.
      In his formative years the Prophet of Islam would have been exposed to Jewish and Christian religious practice and scripture, possibly by today’s standards heretical, as well as paganism. The Hajj and its ceremonies are pre-Islamic as is the sacred nature of the Ka3aba or cube which Muhammad cleansed by throwing out all the pagan images except, according to tradition, an icon of Maryam the mother of Jesus.
      The Hajj and the Ka3aba may have represented neutral ie non-aggression spaces for the tribes of the peninsula.

    266. Ken500 says:

      Moray will get what they voted for cuts. The unionists will not put the Council tax up for the wealthier. Many people would pay £5 a month more for essential services. After 9 years of restraint.

      Aberdeenshire unionists would have done the same. Cut the education funding allocation. Using the statuary limitation (30 pupil per class) as the norm. It’s a wonder the Teachers Unions do not sue them. The SNP group managed to prevail but the unionists are now in control. The millionaire fiefdom of greedy, subsidised unionists back.

      The ‘celebrity’ programme is one of the worst. Another programme with the inherited tax evaders millionaires. Ecclestone? It is just disgusting. Why people watch such nonsense is a mystery. A sham.

    267. Petra says:

      Talking up Scotland update:

      ”…This looks like one more example of the reasons underlying Scotland unique in the UK trade surplus. See:

      Scotland’s 2017 trade surplus grows as England’s deficit soars saddling the UK with ever more debt

      Is Scotland being dragged under by London and the South’s massive trade deficit as the consequent debt mountain frustrates the Chancellor?.”


      ”…Scottish stillbirth and early infant death rates lowest in the UK and approaching lowest in the world. At the beginning of this, I described the Guardian piece as disturbing. I meant that in two senses. First, clearly, the whole notion of stillbirth is deeply disturbing but secondly, this implied conflation of Scotland with the UK is all too common and all too ignorant….”


      ”…This is another example in a growing list of Scottish research teams working to improve conditions in disadvantaged areas across the globe. See:…”


      ”…According to the latest UCAS 2017 figures, only Scotland saw an increase in the number of its students accepted for entry to UK universities. The figures are:..”

    268. How long has Leonard lived and been a trade union member here in Scotland that he is completely unaware that Scottish water has not been privatised?

    269. Chick McGregor says:

      Dr Jim

      While I know where you are coming from (having had occasion to rue the machinations of lefty leadership myself) I would just like to point out that the rank and file foot soldier of the left is generally motivated by the best intentions. They see the unfairness in society and want to do something about it.

      They are poorly served, however, by a leadership which, by and large, has Adulation! Adulation! Adulation!, the holier than thou variety, as their main motivation. Most of that leadership is intellectually lite and would run a mile if a threat of actually winning governance ever became a reality. IMO.

      And, of course, perpetually vying with each other on that ticket means the higher ground can never be left even very temporarily or for the most obviously expedient or pragmatic of reasons.

      I’m sure we can all think of an exception or two but that is the way I see things.

    270. Ken500 says:

      The Royal family are a mixed race migrant family. German, Greek, Scottish English.

      Johnstone was a EU diplomat. Boris Johnstone owes his privileges to EU money. Like Farague who has illegally funding a Political Party with public money for 19 years. Offshoring it. Bank’s hedge fund.

    271. Chick McGregor says:

      Very OT
      The Queen said she would stand down when she gets to 95 in a few months. That would require legislation to introduce an effective ‘retirement age’ for the monarch.

      It strikes me that those who would rather not see a Charles III could be tempted at that stage to achieve that by simply setting the retirement age to the current national level.

      Thus ‘justifiably’ going straight to William.

      Slightly OT

      I wonder which is the more likely to impinge on indyref2, a Charles coronation or a William coronation?
      Probably the latter I suspect.

    272. Chick McGregor says:

      Following on.

      With a royal wedding, another royal sprog, a coronation and possibly a funeral or two we are likely, in the next 18 months or so, to be in what you might call a ‘Peak Royal’ period.

      My question to Wingers is, would such a backdrop have a positive or negative effect on gaining independence?

    273. Chick McGregor says:

      Oops! just had a check, the Queen is only 91. Someone on the telly the other day said she was 94.

      Well at least I found it myself.

    274. Proud Cybernat says:

      Just a couple of days into it and I’m sorely pissed off with it already.

      I’m sure I need not elaborate.

      Someone needs to start a ‘Royal-Free’ pub, restaurant, TV channel or whatever. I need to get away from this fecking insanity!


    275. Robert Graham says:

      Urgent Question by that Labour wiz kid on financial matters Ballie , listen dummy your Labour Party left us a millstone round the governments neck of one billion pounds re your only game in town PFI contracts, that’s where the bloody money you keep screaming about is going thanks to Labour.

      Tory mob keep pushing this increase from Westminster that turns out to be a cut , it should be a requirement of any and all MSPs to tell the truth at all times, I know that this will be a real problem for the Unionist parties, but let’s give it a go . Just Once .

      Patrick well done , keep it up your support is appreciated, but just remember the next time you ask for a loan of our vote, we have long memories, just like we remember RISE , the party that sank without a trace after the Holyrood election, and their usefulness was over, the factions that promoted them are still in the YES movement most of us know who they are, don’t we Robin .

    276. Petra says:

      What does Mr Leonard, the Scottish Labour Party, have to say about that following Labour ruling the roost in Glasgow for nigh on the best part of 70 years? Westminster Labour in cahoots with the Tories (again) hiding the McCrone Report from the Scots and of course still lying about our wealth.

      ‘Glasgow has the highest mortality rate of anywhere in the UK.’

    277. Petra says:

      ‘Richard Leonard mocked after gaffe-filled speech on Scottish politics alongside Jeremy Corbyn.’

    278. Fred says:

      Petra, the Glasgow figures don’t illustrate anything, many of the better-off decamped to the ring of suburbs outwith the city boundary but work in Glasgow, hence Bearsden & Milngavie folk live longer than Maryhill folks!

      PS. The Greek royal family are about as Greek as sauerkraut!

    279. Robert Graham says:

      Drifting o/t – Scottish councils screaming for financial support we are being bled dry by this nasty SNP government ,
      Who has being given a massive increase from the benevolent Tory government in Westminster, why don’t they pass on their good fortune they ask ,

      On a lighter note Scottish council reserve funds have increased by £ 100.000.000 that’s one hundred million since their last settlement , and now stand at one point eight five billion , f/me I bet a lot over folks here wished they had that problem, Christ almost Two Billion Quid , how draconian can this SNP government get, child labour will be compulsory next .

      I give up ,this is a bleeding fantasy land we are in , with Councils probably Labour controlled blaming the SNP for this miserable surplus, we want more, more is never enough for this lot .

    280. Petra says:

      @ Fred says at 3:08 pm …. ”Petra, the Glasgow figures don’t illustrate anything, many of the better-off decamped to the ring of suburbs outwith the city boundary but work in Glasgow, hence Bearsden & Milngavie folk live longer than Maryhill folks!”

      I would say that, that argument could / would apply to many cities across the UK Fred, such as Liverpool and Birmingham. The point being that there should never have been such levels of poverty in Scotland at all taking into account Scotland’s manifold natural resources and assets. You’ll notice that the figures for London and the south east of England don’t compare. I wonder why that is? Bolstered by Scotland’s oil revenue for one?

      There was also research carried out a couple of years ago that showed that a concerted effort was made by Westminster to decimate Glasgow, however I can’t get my hands on it right now. I’ll post it later if I do come across it.

    281. Valerie says:

      Dr Jim 11.13am

      Well said. Yes, we have peak Royal which will serve to strengthen Brexiteer, Britnat resolve to take back control.

      But, it’s a sideshow we have no need to be involved in. It will just dissipate Indy energies, and we have enough of that going on already, much to unionist delight.

      For those that missed the Yes EK debacle, check out today’s WGD post.

      It’s a disgusting episode, imo. Massive, narcissistic egos at work.

    282. Petra says:

      @ Robert Graham says at 3:19 pm …. ”Scottish councils screaming for financial support we are being bled dry by this nasty SNP government, Who has being given a massive increase from the benevolent Tory government in Westminster, why don’t they pass on their good fortune they ask. On a lighter note Scottish council reserve funds have increased by £ 100.000.000 that’s one hundred million since their last settlement , and now stand at one point eight five billion , f/me I bet a lot over folks here wished they had that problem, Christ almost Two Billion Quid , how draconian can this SNP government get, child labour will be compulsory next . I give up ,this is a bleeding fantasy land we are in , with Councils probably Labour controlled blaming the SNP for this miserable surplus, we want more, more is never enough for this lot.”

      I heard something on the news earlier about the results of independent research being carried out which will no doubt support the yelping. I also wonder if some of the councils making the most noise are those who have decided not to raise the Council Tax?

    283. Dr Jim says:

      Scottish Labour to drink more water under Richard Leonard
      Presumably so they can talk more (….)

      Even John McTernan wont make a prediction on this guys chances of reviving the Labour party
      I bet even Jackie Baillie gets a red neck listening to Richard Leonards porkies

      So where’s Hothersall and McDougal to hail and praise their new well informed Leader and tell us he’ll be the next FM

      Strangely silent, they must not have been told what to say yet

    284. uno mas says:

      @ Chick McGregor

      According Prince Charles Wiki entry they are are thinking of changing his title on accesion to the throne to George vii as he doesn´t want to be associated with his ancestor Chick the Second on account of him being a fornicator.


    285. Macandroid says:

      The above shenanigans have ruled out the prospect of a Spring Indyref2.

      I do hope all the major and minor royals make their own cocoa of an evening come the Autumn. We don’t want anything being slipped unnoticed into their bedtime beverage which might cause a major media incident to sideline an Autumn effort!

    286. Greannach says:

      Is this prince that’s getting married related to the royal family? Any know?

    287. Nana says:

      A few links for the afternoon

      Babcock cuts 250 jobs at Rosyth Dockyard

      Exclusive: Leaked notes reveal Labour figures’ thoughts about Aberdeen coalition

      Ooh dear are they falling out
      Opposition leaders call for Tories to look at coalition deal after Labour comments

    288. call me dave says:

      @uno mas

      I said he would never take the name King Charles III a couple of years back when I referred (on WOS) to there already having been a Charles III. Also a reference to a burial in St Peters.

      Used to find it on Wiki but I don’t now see a clear reference to it now and many changes have taken place on the pages since last I read it. 🙂

      Lots of interesting and knowledgeable comments. Great stuff!

      Councils short of money, reserves low some didn’t use the opportunity to raise Council tax up a wee bit by 3%.
      £1.8m overall reserves Scotland wide which has gone up.

      National Audit Office admit they gave the wrong number on many Scots pay more income tax under the SNP. Took the paper back in for a recheck of the figures after the bad SNP questioned the numbers. SNP figures were correct. Now SNP very bad in the papers.

      Leonard! He will have to water down his SNP bad speech doesn’t know Scottish Water is a public company.

      Are you YES yet lurkers?

    289. ronnie anderson says:

      One’s grannies the heid of both institutions so’s no problemo .

    290. Nana says:


      Go Nicola

      The FM accuses UK govt of ‘talking so much nonsense it borders on dishonesty.’

    291. Proud Cybernat says:


      FM: “The media should stop enabling them [the UK Gov] to do so [telling porkies].”

    292. Highland Wifie says:

      Well said. Thanks Petra for posting the link to WGD.
      I cannot for the life of me work out what is to be gained from such attacks from within the movement which are a complete distraction from the fight for Independence.

      Gender politics has, in some instances, completely lost the plot imo. When it results in a situation where some people think an event should be cancelled if there is no female representation available, then serious questions need to asked of these people. Such as, how committed are you in fact to pursuing Scottish Independence?

      No doubt some would suggest that the excellent event with Prof Tom Devine and Alex Salmond last Saturday should not have taken place as they are both men. Oh but the MC was a woman so that’s ok then. Ridiculous.
      I hope the people concerned in this debacle have gained a sense of perspective over the last few days.

    293. velofello says:

      @ heedtracker: Hopefully the National have read the article on Natural Capital you posted here, and print it in their newspaper.

      Another action would be for the SNP to leaflet a precis of the article and encourage the SNP branches to letterbox distribute.

    294. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      I’ve just realised that the BritLab slogan “For the many” in the background of the main pic is actually telling the truth, for once.

      No, seriously! It means they really do intend that the many in England will permanently overrule the small bunch of restless natives up here in their northern empire.

      As they are proving in their assiduous support for Engexit, with us in their preferred role as “tagalongs”.

      (PS: Nice one, Nicola. We need a lot more of that active resistance now.)

    295. From an article in the Graun, regarding the new French Consolate in Edinburgh.
      “Julian Goodare, a reader in Scottish history at the University of Edinburgh, said the Auld Alliance was “a political and military alliance. It wasn’t about the Scots liking French orchestras or French wine. The reason the Scots and the French cooperated is they both hated the English, and the English hated them.”

    296. Dan Huil says:

      @Joe of the Coutts 5:17pm

      Remember the Battle of Bauge!

    297. Fran says:

      @ uno mas

      They just don’t want to be associated with the Stewarts

    298. Ken500 says:

      More men than women join political parties. 10 to 1?

      More women should join.

    299. Petra says:

      Why is it that the Union Jack badge is not worn on Police uniforms south of the border, but it’s being introduced to the Scottish Police Force by people such as Assistant Chief Constable Bernard Higgins?

      There was rammy not so long ago, south of the border, when officers wanting to commemorate the death of their colleague, PC Phillips, were told it was not on, because it was not part of the official uniform set out in the Uniform and Appearance Standards policy. This decision was eventually overturned in relation to that instance only, as far as I know. Maybe someone living south of the border could keep us right on that one?

    300. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Nana good link on the Aberdeen Chameleon Party .

    301. twathater says:

      Lizg@ 1.32am wow wow what a beautiful disection of the current situation , thoughtful and provoking now we only have to get it out there

    302. Robert Graham says:

      o/t – This is for the spineless , gutless , arse wipes , that earn their corn in the media by mis-reporting Scotland .

      The amount of barefaced lies peddled by this Tory government, and Unionist parties in Scotland recently could keep a good journalist busy for weeks , it’s one thing pushing your own perspective of events , your own party view that’s expected, but down right lies now that’s another thing entirely.

      Starting with this BBC crowd ,every time a SNP rep is questioned on this propaganda channel they must be confronted, they are not ,and never will be friendly to the thought of independence , so stop being bloody nice to them, they are the enemy , treat them like the Barstuards they are .

    303. galamcennalath says:

      Online vibes suggest the EU and UK have agreed the divorce bill.

      The pound has just jumped suggesting it is true.

    304. schrodingers cat says:

      Macandroid says:
      The above shenanigans have ruled out the prospect of a Spring Indyref2.

      I dunno, maybe theresa can encourage some yoons to hold another wedding party in kelvingrove 🙂

    305. galamcennalath says:

      Me @ 17:59

      The agreed divorce bill is between €45bn and €55bn, it is believed.

    306. Ken500 says:

      Why do these idiot Tories stand for election if they are so useless. They can’t even count or read a balance sheet. Moray could put the Council tax for wealthiest. After 9 years restraint.

      No money? Aberdeen City Council sold the City on the Stock exchange. Borrowed and spent like there is no tomorrow. £1.2Billion in debt. Wasted £200Million in a non mandated grotesque project. No one wanted. Closed essential access roads causing more traffic chaos. The Art Gallery will be shut for years. £30Million project. Spent £300Million on a Conference Centre with no business case. A total waste of money. A waste of £1/2Billion. Cutting funding for essential services. They are a disgrace.

    307. Ken500 says:

      €15Billion a year. 4 years contribution is €60Billion. €5Billion rebate. More comes back than goes out. The Tories will end up paying more for less rights and decisions making.

    308. ronnie anderson says: It appears I am not alone in my thinking .

    309. geeo says:

      Is that the Morgan Stanley who got $107 BILLION in emergency loans from the Federal Reserve ?

      The LARGEST emergency loan for any bank ?

    310. North chiel says:

      Noted and well said “ Heedracker@ 1036am” we should remember that some of the SNP’s most historic election victories has been in Govan. The unionists and their media “ lackies” have recently attempted to reintroduce “ sectarianism “into west of Scotland politics and they intend to use this strategy to undermine the SNP in these areas.
      Posters should remember that “ divide& rule” is the “ Unionist mantra” . It is truly heartening that the SNP has in the main replaced Labour in Glasgow& the West of Scotland , however the unionists ( working in collusion) , will use every trick in the book to regain what was lost. There is obviously many SNP & “ Yes” supporters in the West and all parts of Scotland from ALL FAITHS ( both religious& sporting”). That should give us all hope for a future fair and inclusive Independent country. Dont provide them with any opportunity to “ drag us back” to
      “ the old days and ways” as this is exactly what their objective is .

    311. galamcennalath says:

      Chick McGregor says

      Charles III

      Remember, George VI was called Albert (Bertie to his mates), and Edward VII was also an Albert.

      The rest appear to have used their given names as monarch.

      So Chas Windsor could call himself what he like, I guess. HRH Zebedee I?

    312. Legerwood says:

      galamcennalath says:
      28 November, 2017 at 7:27 pm
      Chick McGregor says

      “”Charles III

      “”Remember, George VI was called Albert (Bertie to his mates), and Edward VII was also an Albert.

      The rest appear to have used their given names as monarch.

      So Chas Windsor could call himself what he like, I guess.””

      Edward the VIII, later Duke of Windsor, was called David within the family. His brother who succeeded him was Bertie in the family but chose George (VI) as his regnal name.

      I have long suspected that Charles will also chose George as his regnal name possibly because he made some sort of promise to his grandmother, the late Queen Mother and widow of George VI.

    313. starlaw says:

      ONCE AND FOR ALL. When Crowned Prince Charles will assume the title King George V11 . Cos every body knows that King Charles is a Spaniel. So there.

    314. galamcennalath says:

      George VII of the United Kingdom of England and Wales. 😉

    315. galamcennalath says:

      ” According to several diplomats familiar with the talks, the UK would assume EU liabilities worth up to €100bn although net payments, discharged over many decades, could fall to less than half that amount. “

      Sounds like spinning it to sound like a good deal!

    316. Chick McGregor says:

      “They just don’t want to be associated with the Stewarts”

      Then why would the Queen name her two eldest Charles and Anne?

      Maybe she was being contrary?

    317. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Starlaw I asked bookie’s for odds on prince charlie not ascending to the throne ( no takers ) he’ll decline in favour of william ie OO wouldn’t except queen camilla .

    318. call me dave says:

      Charlie maybe no. on another tack.


      In case we forget. I saw that James I was a correct answer on eggheads tonight.

      Not James the I and VI. Och well that’s that then!

      (and I know about the introduced rule for Queenie E I and II too)


      Nice to see and hear N.Sturgeon call out WM about the ‘broadband’

    319. Cadogan Enright says:

      really enjoying the consternation of the BritNats on discovering that after 18 months –

      “shit, no-one told me the Paddies had a veto”


      “we have patted them on the head and talked down to them on at least 10 occasions over the last 18 months – what else could they possibly want?”

    320. Thepnr says:

      “UK would assume EU liabilities worth up to €100bn”

      I doubt the Brexiteers will be jumping for joy at this news. The Tories don’t appear to be very good at this negotiating malarkey.

      I notice though that the plan is to pay back this debt to the EU over a good many years, I can’t see them being any more successful at paying this debt as they have been in reducing the current UK debt of £1 Trillion.

      To be honest the UK is screwed, where is the money to be found from to pay the EU? Scotland’s budget, the NHS or welfare and pensions?

      Yep totally screwed.

    321. starlaw says:

      Ronnie Anderson …. Interesting, I thought about this years ago But heard Charles pass a remark a few weeks ago which seemed to be a confirmation that he would take the throne. Something about one having to take ones position . suppose its wait and see time.

    322. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Thepnr future history books written on Brexit will be redacted LoL .

    323. Liz g says:

      Ronnie Anderson @ 8.45
      Aye Ronnie lol… but hopefully the first thing to be Redacted is Scotland’s contribution tae payin fur it.

    324. ronnie anderson says:

      @ liz g cant come soon enough for me Liz

    325. Fred says:

      @Petra, Strathclyde was an excellent attempt to solve Glasgow’s financial problems but was scrapped & we have the present dogs-breakfast. The surrounding counties wouldn’t give Glasgow any more land & so private builders moved across the boundary & have had a housing bonanza creating suburbs which completely ring the city & pay their taxes to the counties. The creation of the New Towns & the Glasgow Overspill scheme further reduced the city’s population by nearly a half & the least well off were left behind, hence the phoney stats.

    326. Liz g says:

      Fred @ 10.13
      I heard an interesting take on Strathclyde many year’s ago!
      Don’t know how much truth is in it though?
      But it might explain Charlie Gray’s (the convener of the region at the time) a Labour “name” coming out for Indy!

      Anyhoo the story goes ……
      Strathclyde, the biggest regional council in Europe.
      And probably the most powerful body in Scotland at the time.
      Had been working on a massive investment deal from the EU.
      This would have gone quite some way to mitigating Thatcher’s decimation of the heavy industries in the central belt.

      Thacher/Westminster got wind of it and intervened to destroy it.
      Then the next thing they know is Westminster decides to break up the Council into smaller area’s.
      The inference being that Westminster didn’t ever want to risk having such a powerful body to have to deal with again.

      Apparently Charlie Gray fought this tooth and nail,because the people in the region would have had some protection from the big industry break up….but as we know Westminster got it’s way.
      And the rest as they say is History!

    327. Fred says:

      Interesting Liz, plus the fact that Labour in George Square didn’t put up much of a fight to expand the city’s boundaries (as has always happened in the past!) they had created a Labour fiefdom & didn’t want potential Tory voters! The result was that Glasgow had more fiddlers than Shetland!

    328. Greannach says:

      Has this new guy signed up for Strictly Great British Celebrity Incontinence on Ice yet?

    329. Gary45% says:

      O/T Just read Engerlands group of death in 2018.
      Do Panama really have a football team? At least Engerland will lay off Russian fake news scandals until after the games
      mmm. 1966 Russian linesman comes to mind.

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