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Return of the boat people

Posted on January 05, 2019 by

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    1. 05 01 19 07:56

      Return of the boat people | speymouth

    545 to “Return of the boat people”

    1. jimnarlene says:

      “I see no ferries…”

    2. Street Andrew says:

      Oh, dear.

      I’m not paying attention apparently.

      No idea what this is about.

    3. Dorothy Devine says:

      Street Andrew ,the twit on the right has handed a company sans boats 14 million quid to provide extra ferries to ship in goods and services after the big B.

      He was never very bright and has made a pig’s ear of Transport without being hounded from office by the media – which the Scottish media took great delight in doing to the SNP Transport minister when it snowed a few years ago with shouts of ,’Resign!” during interviews.

      The wee follicly challenged chap wants gun boats to patrol La Manche to prevent desperate people from landing on our glorious shores

      neither chap is any use and needless to say both are Tories.

    4. sassenach says:

      Nicely linked, Chris.

      What a pair of balloons.

    5. Capella says:

      @ street andrew – it’s about two feckless suits trying to run a piss up in a brewery and failing.

      They stand on the beaches, at the white cliffs of Dover. One is summoning up visions of the plucky little boats ferrying troops back from Dunkirk while the other yearns for the day when the British navy ruled the waves.

      I can almost hear Vera Lynn in the soundtrack.

    6. Josef Ó Luain says:


      A masterly interpretation of a masterly cartoon.

    7. Puzzled Puss says:

      I always look forward to Saturdays and the Cairns cartoon, and today’s is another which hits the nail squarely on the head. Is it just me,though, or does anyone else see an extraordinary resemblance between the chap on the left and the Mekon, the arch-adversary of Dan Dare, who featured in the Eagle comic in the sixties?

    8. Auld Rock says:

      Puzzled Puss, You know you’re right I didn’t notice resemblance until you mentioned it. But as a boy I was a dedicated ‘Eagle’ reader and the ‘Mekon’ was an evil wee b*^%*+d!!!!

    9. Sinky says:

      I note press reports say P & O have dismissed reinstating a ferry link between Scandinavia and Scotland. Surely than have a better claim for UK funds than non existent ferry companies.

      Brian Wilson excels himself in Hootsman as he claims Holywood will never reach its full potential until it ditches moves towards independence. The strange logic of Unionists

    10. Davy S says:

      Another great cartoon Chris. It must be challenging deciding on a topic for ridicule with the levels of incompetence we see from our overlords on a daily basis

    11. Morgatron says:

      Dont panic!, Dont panic Capt Grayling!,the BBC shall cover our tracks & whip up public fear and anger by claiming the invasion has started and the channel is awash with lilos and whilst we are at it, lets give these discarded lilos to a real dodgy company that could utilise these as north sea ferries, no need to dredge and we will throw in £13 million to ensure they stay inflated!

    12. yesindyref2 says:

      I saw three ferries come sailing in
      On April Fools Day in the morning.

    13. mumsyhugs says:

      So there’s nae chance of being able to catch a boat on the return trip back to the continent as the good ship UK slips below the waves?

    14. winifred mccartney says:

      Is’nt shameful how one immigrant is so ready to blame immigrants for our present woes just to please his masters and ramp up the UKIP narrative. It is so shameful it is criminal.

    15. Scowley says:

      If you live on the Scottish islands, be afraid, be very afraid.
      The ferries that company will use will be YOUR ferries.

    16. yesindyref2 says:

      There be Cuckoos under
      The white cliffs of Dover

    17. Les Wilson says:

      Some goings on with the National this morning,especially
      with the comments section.only very early posts are appearing,other posts across the sections are telling you the numbers posted but none appearing.
      A glitch with their system or something else?

    18. Capella says:

      @ Josef O Luain – thx 🙂

    19. wull2 says:

      How can you not see the squirrels on surf boards, just tell the public they are now coming over on surf boards,

    20. Colin Alexander says:


      Above is the SNP manifesto from 1997. It is interesting to see how SNP policy has evolved over the years.

      It says on p9:

      “New Labour’s scheme for a Scottish assembly is fatally flawed, and will deliver
      no real power…”


      “A vote for the SNP is a vote for Independence…Scotland can regain its independence at any General Election”.


      The manifesto goes on:

      “After the election of a majority of SNP MPs,the SNP will immediately initiate negotiations for independence with the UK government. In parallel with these negotiations, we will initiate talks with the European Union in order to facilitate the right conditions for independent representation.”.

      “At the conclusion of this period (which is likely to take between six and twelve
      months) the people of Scotland will be asked to approve the “independence
      settlement” in a simple one question referendum. On achieving the assent of the people of Scotland, independence will be declared and, after the formal establishment of an independent country within Europe, a fresh General Election will be held to elect a new government”.

      Draw your own conclusions, as I don’t think “we are all daft” on Wings.

    21. orri says:

      I blame Ben Kingsley. Probably Ghandi
      Nothing to do with their obvious loathing of all forms of international aid or even rescue.

    22. Jon Drummond says:

      Dumb and Dumber…

    23. Ghillie says:

      Too early for OT.

    24. starlaw says:

      Great cartoon Chris. . . A couple of dome heids right enough.

    25. Ghillie says:

      Dorothy Devine @ 7.48 am and Cappela @ 7.51 am , both brilliant synopsisesss (sp?)(synopses apparently) of an almost unbelievable situation.

      How much are the rest of the World laughing?

      (mind you, as usual Master Trump is doing his damndest to be crowned king clown)

      But imho our marvelous and glorious UKtorie government takes the biscuit every time!

    26. Clootie says:

      The ferry contract award demonstrates what Brexit is really about….some people will make money, the “friends” of some people will make money, the City Slickers will make money. As for the rest of us…I think that result is self evident.

      Labour just wants “power” and they love a nation suffering hardship and pain that they can blame on the Tories in the hope that the anger will sweep them into office.The anger should in reality be directed at them for doing nothing to prevent the suffering in the first place.

    27. Capella says:

      OT is OK now IMO.
      I’ve been meaning to post this link for a few days. If anyone wonders why our oligarchs are desperate to attack Russian oligarchs, this RT article provides a handy checklist of the natural assets being managed by those Russian oligarchs for their own benefit. How dare they!

      Since our navy is currently on manoeuvres in Norway “protecting” us from a Russian invasion there are no boats left to defeat the invading armies and navies of refugees.
      So not OT after all!

    28. Ken500 says:

      They were borrowing French navy vessels. The Ministry of ‘Defence’ had none and no helicopters but were spending £Billions on worthless Trident in Scottish waters. Ruining the Scottish economy for jobs in the South. Brexit will ruin it further. The Westminster unionists muck up the world. Utter useless sychophants. Promoted about their capabilities. People who can do. People who can’t join unionists political parties, especially in Scotland. Lying useless articles supported by the useless unlawful sychophant Press. Disgraceful.

      Dacre was phone hacking, illegally surveilling people and lying. Knowingly lied to Parliament for years and destroyed the economy. Most of them should be in jail. Let off with impunity

      The migrants illegally throwing out migrants. Their families, associates and acquaintances. To line their pockets. Pathetic and illegal. Clueless.

    29. Ghillie says:

      The wee lad on the left looks a little sad.

      I wonder if somewhere deep down he has managed to find a shred of humanity and sanity.

      The English Channel in January… how horribly desperate are these poor folk seeking a safe shore?

      How can an ‘island nation’, that has just been remembering the unbearable loss of life by the shores of Lewis and our many many maritime disasters all around the coasts of the British Isles, passively and, now it looks likes actively, allow anyone from anywhere at all to perish in the sea?

    30. Ken500 says:

      Some people are daft on Wings. The incessant trolling. Repeatedly distorted. Stands out like a sore thumb. Mucking up the treads. Compulsive liars. Cutting off their nose to spite their face. Pinnichio.

    31. Abulhaq says:

      @Colin Alexander
      The SNP has ‘evolved’…and how!
      It is now no longer a nationalist party, Madame Sturgeon, a pastmaster at virtue signalling, has indicated her distaste for the word, so what you see is what you get. A party content to work within the Westminster devolved structure but not averse to occasionally dangling the independence carrot ie indyref#2 to keep the faithful old groupies on side.
      As long as the Sturgeonites are in control the independence prospects for the future are mere occasions for motivational rhetoric and fantasy. A no deal Brexit, increasingly likely, is a solid gold once in a millennium opportunity for serious strategic initiative. Does the SNP have the political will or skill to seize that opportunity? On the basis of past performance the answer must be no.

    32. John Alexander Ferguson says:

      And here’s me thinking it wad Graylings fairies

    33. John Alexander Ferguson says:

      And here’s me thinking it was Graylings fairies

    34. orri says:

      The oligarchs generally avoid attacking each other. They get the poor sods in the lower classes to do it for them.

      Thatcher was sadly misquoted or taken out of context as far as her no society speech went. The classic problem of a soundbite that doesn’t stand by itself. She tried to explain that there isn’t a society distinct from the individuals making it up.

      Where she lost her audience was in going on to say society owes nothing to individuals. Given major religions at big on charity that’s missing even a moral imperative.

      But as far as war goes. There’s a reason the publicity moved away from the sheer horror of the 1st World War and focussed on the patriotism post 2016.

      There’s a reason the Mail don’t like a reminder of serial number tatoos from children of those who survived the Holocaust.

      Extremist aren’t big on people learning their own lessons from history. Even your own personal experiences. Certainly not teaching others or drawing unfavourable parallels.

    35. Muscleguy says:

      There are no ferries available, worldwide. There is a lifeline ferry link between the two main islands in NZ, Wellington to Picton. A ferry developed a fault recently and the company sought a replacement internationally and could not find one.

      Putting trucks on ferries is stupid unless you have no other choice. The other choice is containers sent by container ships. Back in the day there were limits on how far trucks could drive, any further and the goods had to go by rail or shipping. Same in NZ, then the road and trucking industries complained and long distance trucking happened and rail declined as goods volumes dropped and local shipping took a nosedive. CO2 production per unit mile of goods transport climbed.

    36. Legerwood says:

      Actually, Mr Grayling may have been quite clever in a way by awarding a contract to a company with no ships. All the attention has been on that and little, if anything, said about the £90million of taxpayers’ money given to two European companies to provide ferries to bring supplies to the UK which we would not be necessary if we stayed in the EU.

      Ace deflection/distraction. Temporary red face – in the case of the BBC very temporary since they have spared Mr Grayling’s blushes by virtually ignoring the story.

      Possible upside – the money, or some of it, finds it’s way into Tory party coffers in time for next GE.

      As for the Home Secretary and his ‘crisis’ due to invasion of our shores by asylum seekers – 200 or so since November. This is straight out of the Trump playbook. Remember in the lead up to the mid-terms and Trump’s talk of ‘invasion’ and mobilisation of troops along the border?

      The HS seems to be trying the same thing.

      Neither ridicule nor criticism bothers them because the whole charade is about deflecting attention from things they do not want us to notice.

    37. Proud Cybernat says:

      Nailed it, Chris. Just wish there was a wee Scottish Lifeboat being launched though!

      “…the Scots no longer think it’s worthwhile belonging to England…”

    38. Breeks says:

      Ghillie says:
      5 January, 2019 at 10:11 am

      How can an ‘island nation’, that has just been remembering the unbearable loss of life by the shores of Lewis and our many many maritime disasters all around the coasts of the British Isles, passively and, now it looks likes actively, allow anyone from anywhere at all to perish in the sea?

      I think the BBC was hinting it’s apparently alright to let them die if they come from Eurasia. We’d naturally save them all if they came from Oceania or Eastasia, but not those pesky Eurasians. We have always been at war with them.

    39. Grouse Beater says:

      Love this week’s likenesses, Chris, great illustration, and the simplicity of the cartoon is a winner too. Thank you.

      Your essential weekend reading:

      No more talk of nationalism:
      A fine film of 1707’s Queen:

    40. Republicofscotland says:

      Ha, ha Chris, a belter and oh so true.

    41. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @crazycat –

      Thanks for reply on previous thread. Hopefully it’ll be picked up again, by RJS and others, in due course.

      (Always love anything involving the Remembrancer, he’s like some weird Ian Flemng character.)

    42. Hamish100 says:

      Alison Rowat on BBC Shereen doesn’t believe it appears that Scotland is any more welcoming to immigrants than England. Is this just a middle class unionist view?

      In fairness Sergio Casci was more welcoming. I will now stop buying Rowat Pickles!!

    43. Sharny Dubs says:

      Nice one Chris as usual.

      Mibbi they could recommission all those old subs, that is after they stop “glowing”. No wait! After exiting the EU there will be nothing holding WM back!!

    44. Gary45% says:

      A great start to another year Chris.
      Nice one.
      A wee rumour Seaborne are calling the three boats.
      Titanic 2, 3, and 4.

    45. Legerwood says:

      Muscleguy @ 10.29am

      Much the same was said last night on CH4 news about the lack of available ferries with the added twist that Ramsgate can only take ferries of a particular size which narrows their leasing options even further.

      Apparently DFDS may have some of the right size!

    46. Ken500 says:

      The UK contribute to the EU is €15Billion is cost nothing but brings benefits. Costs Scotland nothing but brings benefit. EU grants, renewables, shared Defence costs saving £Billions. ECB investment in Scotland on approved projects, The nearest biggest markets,

      Germany (82million pop) €25Billion.

      France (67million pop) €20Billion

      Italy (60million pop) €20Billion

      Spain (46Million pop). ?

      UK (65Million pop) €15Billion (rebate)

      Where are the Tories getting £37Billion from. Labour are useless. Why is there never any break down? Are they comparing apples and oranges – ie adding on extra irrelevant costs. They can’t count or read a balance sheet obviously. Where are they getting the other £20Billion from. Why is there never any breakdown (accounts of the funds)? Why aren’t the books being opened and published on a UK official website. They are known for secrecy and lies around UK Gov accounting systems. They have been caught out many times of illegal manipulation. Most of them should be in jail. They are guilty of fraud but use Parliamentary privilege to evade the Law, repeatedly. .

      The DUP want to be part of the UK so they can evade UK Law and get away with murder. They evade and illegally do not enforce UK Law. They want to be part of the UK to break UK Law. A Law unto themselves. Their criminality going non apprehended and unpunished while they abuse others. It would be laughable but it is not funny. They are embezzling, wasting public money and receiving bribes. All criminal activities but getting away with it because of Parliamentary privilege. A misognist, racist bigoted criminal association. Breaking UK with unionist politicans support. They are breaking the Law with impunity too.

    47. Dan Huil says:

      Spot on, Chris. Britnat brexit all at sea – or not.

      Don’t worry, chaps, the Dam Busters is on britnat telly this afternoon – again.

    48. Ken500 says:

      Pickles sour, bitter taste. Just like the stinking, sinking BBC. On speed dial to oblivion. The viewing/listening figures are so bad they illegally will not publish them. That’s what floats their boat. Multimillionaire ‘presenters’ sailing their yachts around the Scottish isles. Slagging off Scotland. On extortionate secret salaries of public money for the privilege. Criminal tax evaders. £3.7Billion for that nonsense. A criminal activity. Kept secret under the Official Secrets Act. For which they sign up. Just like civil servants and government workers. To deceive the public. A non consenting manipulation of supposed openness and honesty.

    49. Ken500 says:

      Scotland should be building ferries instead of battle ships and Trident. A total waste of Scottish tax payers money. Doing something useful. Trawlers, supply boats and liners. That’s where the production should be. Westminster unionist losers. They can’t count or read a balance sheet or do anything useful.

    50. David Gray says:

      Ken500 at 1010am says MOD have no navy boats to repel seaborne migrants.Indeed they have many ships tied up at Portsmouth and other bases along the south coast. The problem is that they have no sailors to man these ships.
      There is a solution. Anyone who safely negotiates the Channel should be deemed a sailor and Press-ganged into serving on one of HM Ships (the navy has experience in this method of recruitment).They can’t claim asylum if they don’t touch land and they won’t jump ship because they would have to clain asylum in whichever country they land.

    51. David Gray – they should ask for volunteers to help run the navy – just like they have asked for volunteers to help run the NHS

      No experience necessary.

      We have ferries with no ships, aircraft carriers with no planes and a government with no brains.

      Legerwood – I think you may be right about the diversion tactics!!

      Brilliant cartoon Chris – just wondering if the Tory party has been infiltrated by Aliens from Outer Space – Grayling, Javid, Hague – they all have the same ‘ET’ look or are they characters from Charles Munch’s sketch book for ‘The Scream’.

    52. Capella says:

      @ Meg merrilees – Edvard. 🙂

    53. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Colin Alexander at 9.26

      Yes, Colin We know all that .
      But they changed that. You know, that happens. They adopted the more senible referendum route to independence which is assurdly the more honest and straightforward way to gain independence as it deals exclusively with the independence question.

      Unless a General Election is fought on the single issue of independence it does not provide complete legitimacy on the constitutional question as all sorts of other factors are involved in how people vote on them – party allegiance etc.

      A General Election fought exclusively on the issue of independence,delivering a majority of the actual vote is a possiblity but our opponents would have many reasons to refuse to accept the result of such.

      A referendum is the best route and will remain the favoured option unless we are forced to consider some other option by anti democratic unionist intransigence.

    54. Colin Alexander says:


      Stu’s guidance says wait until at least half a dozen posts before going OT. I respected that.

      Back in 97 the SNP manifesto recognised:

      1. Labour’s devolution was only a pretence of power – a pretence of Scottish sovereignty within the Union.

      2. General Elections were a legitimate means to establish a mandate for independece.

      3. The SNP saw the need, as Breeks has repeatedly suggested, for legitimate direct Scottish negotiatons with the EU, based on an electoral mandate that they represented the sovereign people of Scotland. Admittedly, the FM has had negotiations with the EU but, as the FM of the UK Govt’s subordinate devolution administration.

      The SNP now have an indyref independence plan with it’s foundations built on the weak shifting sands of the (Continuity Bill) devolution parliament, when more than ever before, the UK state knows, that if the UK fails to prevent a fair campaign and fair vote, YES will have a very good chance of winning.

    55. Not up to speed on the brexit ferries gibberish,


      why does the UK need more ferries?

      and if it is to move goods why not use the channel railway tunnel?

    56. Dan Huil says:

      Desperate britnats new argument against Scotland’s independence? Look how much we incompetent britnats have messed things up over our britnat brexit negotiations! They genuinely believe that because they are incompetent then everyone else must be. Sheer sickening britnat arrogance.

    57. carjamtic says:

      But Britannia promised us the Great Metamorphis and

      the Royal Swans would transform into Beautiful Ocean Going Liners.

      I can’t see them,although I can hear the geese honking,grunting and hissing at us,least I think it’s the geese.

      Have we been had ?


    58. Dr Jim says:

      Post Independence I have always been concerned with the idea of an immediate election to vote in a new government for Scotland because who would that be given that the other parties at Holyrood are *British* parties registered in England so how could they stand as candidates for a new Scottish government when they aren’t actually registered as political parties in Scotland

      All current opposition politicians would have to decide whether to register themselves as Scottish parties or they couldn’t stand for election and here’s the thing quite a few of them don’t want to be Scottish they prefer to be anti Scottish

      What would Murdo and his clan do? daft question I suppose, he’d register himself as anything if he thought it would keep him in a seat in Holyrood but who’d vote for anybody who’d change their fundamental views? what am I saying, the same idiots who voted Conservative before, although it’d be funny to hear Richard *bobbin* Leonard’s excuses as to why he was running away back to England on a principle of *solidarity* with whoever would give him a job

    59. geeo says:

      Coco dribbling pish again.

      “But but….in the 1997 manifesto….the ESSENPEE said ..”

      Unless such a policy was in the LATEST manifesto, and voted on by the public, then what was policy in 1997 is completely irrelevent.

      It’s like wee wullie wankie at FMQ’s banging on about council tax reform.

      That was SNP Policy ONCE and voted down in Holyrood by the unionists, so dropped as policy for future election, SNP could not reform CT today if they wanted, as it was not in the manifesto.

      But hey, such technical details never deter British Nationalists like coco the clown.

      His ilk actually help the indy cause, by highlighting the utter contempt him and his fellow British Nationalists, hold Scotland in.

      People reading his dribbling pish would take one read at it and assert that he is an anti Scottish windbag, and question everything he scribbles.

      If those people are swithering which way to vote, his anti SNP/Scottish rants may swing it for a Yes vote.

      That is the unintended effects these windbags and trolls have by their dull neverending verbal skitters.

    60. Daisy Walker says:

      @ Scott Finlayson

      ‘Not up to speed on the brexit ferries gibberish,


      why does the UK need more ferries?

      and if it is to move goods why not use the channel railway tunnel?’

      Scott has some comprehensive information on most things Brexit, including in the last few days the info about the ferries, etc. (He’s a leaver, but to be fair he doesn’t try and spin any of the bad news about Brexit, and he’s done some comprehensive impact assessments for all the industries affected.)

      However, in short, 16 thousand lorries enter the UK by the Dover ferries every day. The Channel Tunnel also operates to capacity.

      An increase of 2 minutes per lorry at customs, will lead to a 20 mile tail back… hence the reason Kent is about to become the biggest lorry car park in the world and roadworks on the M20?/M25? are already underway to accommodate this, under the name Operation Stack. A nearby arifield is also being appropriated for lorry stacking.

      The Gov have provided almost £14 million to a company called Seaborne, to provide extra ferries to assist and deal with the problem.

      Alas Seaborne does not have an office, has only one phone line, has no staff, no ferries (and since they are quite big things, research shows all the possible available ones to buy or rent are already spoken for – worldwide). Oh and there is the slightly small problem that their directors don’t appear to have any experience (or existing running companies) in this line of work.

      Fear not however, the Govt have declared proper procurement/tenure procedures were followed. So that’s good isn’t it.

      One of the other companies hired for the same job, has insisted in being paid in Euros (today’s rate). Strong and Stable, strong and stable.

      Hope the above is of help. Cheerie.

    61. Capella

      Mea culpa – I didn’t think it looked right! Thanks. – but you get my point?

    62. call me dave says:

      @Dr Jim
      That is a point well made about political parties in an independent Scotland having to re-register as properly ‘Scottish’

      It’s a dilemma and no mistake. I’d pay money (not a lot) to see how it turns out for those currently ‘proud Scots’ incumbents. 🙂

      Another good cartoon Mr Cairns.

    63. call me dave says:

      Jings! Forgot to mention

      The National X-word. 2: Down. Designer clown (4)

    64. Valerie says:

      Good toon by Chris, but it’s the saddest thing ever that we need to listen to this disgusting sabre rattling, over a few bedraggled, half drowned migrants.

      International Law insists you save the people in your waters, not run them down. Yes, it is the Trump playbook.

      I see good old Auntie is describing the Seaborne fiasco as a “gaff”. The Tories can sleep easy at night, the Beeb always have their back.

    65. Tom Busza says:

      Scot Finlayson 12.17 pm

      …why not use the channel railway tunnel

      I think I may have the answer Scot. I was down south last week visiting and took this picture at the mouth of the Eurotunnel in Folkestone. I assume the same is happening at Ashford on the Eurostar line.

    66. handclapping says:

      You should get your eggs from Aldi Chris, they’re prettier

      These are the sort of “migrants”* that we need Thye’ve got the seamanship to take on the Channel in winter, they’ve the seamanship to man the ferries we’ll need

      * asylum seekers

    67. Breeks says:

      Scot Finlayson says:
      5 January, 2019 at 12:17 pm
      Not up to speed on the brexit ferries gibberish,


      why does the UK need more ferries?

      and if it is to move goods why not use the channel railway tunnel?

      Got me confused too Scot. It would seem self evident there are already enough ferries and container ships to cope with UK trade already.
      The problem isn’t the number of ships, or the number of lorries, but stringent new customs arrangements which will extensively slow down the processing and turnaround of vessels. It’s a shortage of Customs and Excise Officers and “park you vehicle over there please and come into the office” facilities. It’s not the number of vehicles, it’s the fact they’re not free to move anywhere.

      Surely it isn’t more ship they need, but more Customs Officers and port facilities with cargo handling AND customs verification capacity. More ships by themselves will just make the queues longer at whatever customs points there are to handle the new protocols of European trade without a Customs Union.

      Considering these are Tories however, maybe these additional ships envisioned don’t appear to exist because theyare Somali Registered Blockade Running Pirate Ships, being assembled covertly for Operation Moonfleet… If anybody knows sanction busting gun runners and smugglers, I think it’s a safe bet it will be your UK arms industry.

    68. Capella says:

      @ Meg merrilees – I do indeed get your point.
      As Edvard Munch happens to be a favourite artist of mine his name jumped out at me. If you ever visit Norway then a visit to the Munch Museum is a must.

      He did suffer from depression which we all now share in this BREXIT shambles Britain.

      Great biopic by Peter Watkins here (can’t guarantee quality as I have the DVD version):

    69. Capella says:

      Oops – that film version doesn’t have English subtitles for the Norwegian dialogue. So, unless you speak Norwegian, you’ll have to get the DVD. Peter Watkins’ comments are in English though!

    70. Daisy Walker says:

      Welsh Sion, this one’s for you

      To the tune of ‘If I had a boat, I would sail it on the ocean’ by Lyle Lovatt

      If I had a boat, I would sell it to the tories
      And if I had a Ferry, I’d sell that to them too,
      We could all be waving
      As we sail off to tax havens
      Just me upon my brexit laden boat

      14 Million pounds tae a company with no office
      14 million smackers to a company with no staff
      Not even any sailors and they’ve only got one phone in
      and as for boats they don’t even have a raft

      If I had a boat, I would sell it to the tories
      And if I had a ferry I’d sell that to them too
      We could all be waving
      As we sail off to tax havens
      Just me upon my Brexit laden boat

      And if I was a Boris, a Nigel or Theresa
      If I was a Davis, a Corbyn or a Mogg
      I’d stash the family silver on an Island called the Caymans
      And move the family businesses abroad

      Chorus If I had a boat…

      When I get my vote, I’m voting Caledonia
      When I get my vote, Scotland will be free,
      Goodbye Little England, God bless all who sail you,
      But Scotland will be free from your Union yoke.

      And if I had a boat I would sell it to the tories
      And if I had a ferry I’d sell that to them too
      We could all be waving
      As we sail off to tax havens
      just me upon my Brexit laden boat.

    71. geeo says:

      @Dr Jim.

      Been saying it for ages now, as currently constituted, every unionist politician is out of office with a Yes to indy vote.

      Technically they could claim to suddenly be ‘independent’ MSP’s/Councillors, (MEP’s/MP’s would be out automatically) but in reality, would that be acceptable under the circumstances as they would continue to work against Scotland during transition to the first Scottish GE post Yes vote ?

      A stated belief in an independent Scotland should really be a pre-requisite for election to office in an indy Scotland, after all, how can you look Scots in the eye and declare yourself as defending and promoting the Scottish interests, if you fought tooth and nail to deny Scots independence all your political life ?

      A pledge to take office including a line about recognising Scots independent status forever, under threat of removal from office if not doing so would be interesting.

      Then there is the future campaign funding issues for these unionists turned independents.

      With no party machine backing them, could they afford to risk an election campaign when their opponent can simply stand up and remind people their opponent fought tooth and nail to deny Scots access to democratic choice, yet here they are, wanting people to vote for them in Scotland’s new future.

      No party machine, historically on record as anti Indy for Scotland, a self funding of (and expensive) what would be a pretty dismal campaign riddled with breath taking hypocracy, presents a pretty grim picture for the current unionists in Scotland.

      Not convinced many would bother trying.

      More likely, is the option of them forming new parties based on current ideology, and hoping to raise funds from current sources within Scotland.

      Which begs the obvious question, if they would best be advised to form new Scottish parties, based on current models post indy to survive, then why not do it NOW and by being part of the movement towards independence, they would maintain a better share of the vote ?

      I can understand why unionist WM MP’s are so anti indy, but current unionist councillors and MSP’s face a very uncertain future (wipeout even) when indy happens, their position makes zero sense.

      If Labour or Tories in Scotland were to announce they are splitting from their party and forming a newly constituted independent Scottish Party, which is pro independence, they would immediately be able to claim to being the deciding factor which provided an independent Scotland, when the Yes vote is delivered.

      This puts that party in a much better position in the first Scottish GE post indy.

      The chance to be part of a parliament shaping the future of a wealthy independent Scotland, or political evisceration.

      Maybe its for the best if they are eviscerated if they have no ambition for themselves, never mind an indy Scotland.

    72. Stravaiger says:

      Sorry to carry a post over from the previous thread, but I wanted to respond to this because I think it’s important-

      Robert J. Sutherland says:
      4 January, 2019 at 10:06 pm
      Stravaiger @ 19:43,

      You can’t simultaneously believe that there is confusion in the leadership of the Tory Party and also that no-deal “has been planned all along”. The two are mutually incompatible, for obvious reasons.

      I can, because the planning is not being done by the leadership, it’s being done by the ERG and other influential and wealthy individuals.

      Planned by whom, FGS? This idiotic UKGov couldn’t organise a drink of water by the shore of Loch Lomond, so who is doing this supposed “planning”? They haven’t even got everything ready for this “planned” no-deal exit. Not even close! Contractors with virtual ships. Duh.

      As I say, it’s the ERG and others. As for a lack of planning for the consequences, they don’t care. In fact, they probably stand to make money out of it. Read ‘The Sovereign Individual’ by James Dale Davidson and Sir William Rees-Mogg and you’ll understand why I say that.

      This airy-fairy cloud-cuckooland denial of reality is what is particularly scary and damning about the whole farrago. In trying – and objectively failing – to even reach any kind of consensus within its own party, the Tory UKGov is staggering from one abject failure of management to another. Aided and abetted by an official opposition that has no more clue or answer, trapped in its very own “better” fantasyland.

      Why is this the case? Why the constant kicking of the can down the road? Why the apparent lack of concern and planning? Why the lack of meaningful opposition? Why the obvious lies and platitudes? Follow the money and ask ‘cui bono?’.

      Organised? Planned? Directed? =laugh= This utterly incompetent shamblethon isn’t government as we know it, it’s farce.

      With very serious and unfarcical consequences for many real people. alas. Almost of all of us, in fact.

      In some degree, smoke and mirrors. A pantomime for our benefit. Ably abetted I’ll grant you by genuine confusion and chaos amongst those not in on the game.

      I knew this was all going to unfold just as it has on the day the Brexiteers managed to engineer ‘no deal’ as the default outcome of a failure to agree a deal, and the ‘meaningful vote’ being basically toothless. Reading Pater Mogg’s book merely confirmed my fears. And added to them, I must say.

      A caveat- there is (obviously) a battle going on within the Tory party and no outcome is 100% certain, however I believe that the ERG and others (the ERG are really just the tip of the iceberg) have decidedly got the upper hand at the moment.

      We are all being led a merry dance, and you know the thing about all good dances? The moves are all carefully pre-planned.

    73. Stravaiger says:

      And again (sorry!)

      Ian Brotherhood says:
      4 January, 2019 at 11:38 pm
      @crazycat (11.16) –

      When you speak of ‘The Establishment’ favouring a ‘No Deal’ Brexit, is that for simple tax-evasion reasons, or something else?

      Both. It’s all about tax evasion, but it goes much, much further than you think. Or at least what they are hoping for does. Whether it actually all comes to pass is anyone’s guess. Read ‘The Sovereign Individual’.

      The thrust of the book is as follows-

      1. Governments are a form of protection racket that take money from rich people to pay for services that they don’t use.

      2. The rise of the digital age has led to a situation whereby rich people can easily become effectively stateless and pay tax havens to hide their money from nation states.

      3. This change is so profound it will be as big as the industrial revolution. It will lead to nation states becoming uncompetitive and eventually breaking up in to a series of city states and semi-lawless areas run by violent mafia. The city states will compete for the business of the rich, who will pay relatively small flat rates for the privilege, and the poor will- well, who cares?

      Now, am not saying that I agree with every prediction that the book makes, but for a book predicting technology written about 20 years ago, it’s remarkably prescient.

    74. Capella says:

      Stewart Lee’s comedy routine on the UKIPS anti-foreigner rant is still the best IMO. Why we are in this mess. Thx to whoever first posted the link.
      Here it is for any newcomers hoping to brighten up the last holiday weekend.

    75. defo says:

      Well drawn CC
      SJ’s eyes have an apt, almost shamefaced ‘Don’t look at me like that,I know’ look about them.

      Englands got the post-Empire blues, with an entirely incompetent crew at the helm.
      Seaborne is the glace, on the cherry, on the cake of reaction.

    76. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Stravaiger (2.05) –

      Thanks. Looks interesting and I will certainly check it out.


    77. @Daisy Walker,

      thanks for reply,

      but as `Breeks` says,

      why does/do more ferries help in reducing the lorry stacking problem,

      @Tom Busza,

      i`m sure some of the Brutish Conservative and Unionist/Labour Party would like to brick up the channel tunnel.

    78. Daisy Walker says:

      @ Stravaiger says:

      I agree with your reasoning.

      Nothing about the stated aims of Brexit actually stand up to even the smallest scrutiny.

      Initially they wanted and thought they could keep SM CU membership – until they realised it meant keeping ECJ jurisdiction, and that meant the new Tax Haven Legislation would still hit them.

      The DUP – a minority party in a minor bit of the UK working against the interests of the majority of the public in NI…. and they can hold WM to ransom. Please. A proper enquiry into the cash for Ashes scandal would have seen a fair few of them out of office and likely Bnbing it c/o hmp.

      What does make sense is the shear volume of wealth at stake here, and the families/people who control it. And this mountain of wealth is threatened with being identified, quantified and traced back to its owners by the new EU tax laws.

      This is the wealth accumulated over 300 – 400 years.

      First the Spice Wars, then the Slave Trade, the Opium Trade, the accumulated wealth stolen from all the colonies, African gold, silver, diamonds, timber, tea, coffee, India’s wealth, the rubber from Polynesia, not to mention Australia, Canada, and the oil from the Middle East (up until Seuz). Oh, and if we’re being realistic about it, there was quite a lot of fortunes to be made from the first and second world wars.

      All that wealth was and is controlled by a few families. Old, aristocratic money. They own the banks, they own the press, they own and they place their own in positions of power at every level. And lets face it, the godfather of these families is royal, with an army at their command.

      And they certainly don’t want an audit trail to their wealth identified.

      By contrast Scotland’s substantial wealth is but a building full, compared to a mountain. And it will fund Brexit.

      Labour was a busted flush a very long time ago. Right from the first burkie ca’d a laird. They sent out orders not to support the volunteers who went to fight Fascism in Spain.

      Currently in England its about 50/50 leave:remain. For a 2 party political system, for the Labour party not to embrace and advocate with every breath for Remain just does not stand any scrutiny at all. And I know some will say that a lot of their MP’s are in the areas of highest deprivation and vote leave, but I would suggest that just strengthens the argument, they should be fighting for economic stability, trade, jobs, workers rights, not enabling the tories brexit. They serve their masters well, and they truly are the left cheek of the same skelpit arse.

      It is a well choreographied westminster dance – to keep us all occupied and amused – stealth drones anyone, buy one get a free barking dog.

      There is no managed Brexit (and we’ve seen no attempt or effort at any form of managed Brexit) that does not do catastrophic damage to the UK economy which will take decades to recover from. What kind of ‘business friendly’ tory member imposes this – logically speaking. As I said, it bears no scrutiny.

      No deal = food chaos = riots somewhere in UK = state of emergency = holyrood closed = Scottish Indy shut down for a long long time.

      From the establishments point of view – what’s not to like about that plan.

      The current WM gov couldn’t make a cup of tea competently. That’s a given, but 5000 civil servants have been quietly moved into the new building in Edinburgh to take the reigns as soon as they get the call.

      We are running out of time.

    79. galamcennalath says:

      Breeks says:

      Surely it isn’t more ship they need

      Indeed. I’m having difficulty getting my head round the ‘more ferries’ idea.

      If the trucks which normally cross are all banged up in massive parks awaiting customs handling, surely the through traffic will drop, not increase? The existing ferries, therefore, either won’t be full or will run less often, no?

      Since the bottleneck is on shore, rather than at sea, might it not make more sense to operate existing ferries through different little used ports?

      The whole fiasco so become so deranged I don’t know what anyone’s objective really is now!

    80. Daisy Walker says:

      ‘Scot Finlayson says:
      5 January, 2019 at 2:25 pm
      @Daisy Walker,

      thanks for reply,

      but as `Breeks` says,

      why does/do more ferries help in reducing the lorry stacking problem’

      The Seaborne contract for Ferries were to operate out of Ramsgate harbour (which is needing to be dredged, as currently it is not suitable for ships), in this way, it would by-pass the congestion at Dover.

      Hope this helps.

    81. Dr Jim says:

      *British* political parties being forced to VOW allegiance to Scotland’s people and parliament

      I’d pay to watch the wriggling discomfort of the lot of them vowing to reverse their entire political belief system while trying to keep straight faces, and every one of their voters sitting at home trying to think up some ridiculous semi plausable excuse for their behaviour so they can post invented mitigating *reasons* for them on the internet

      Oh God there’s lots of laughs to be had from that, I cannot wait

    82. Cubby says:

      Colin Alexander@9.26am

      “Draw your own conclusions as I don’t think we are not all daft on Wings”

      My conclusion is that we are not all Independence supporters on a Wings. Britnat Coco.

    83. jfngw says:

      I see the latest trope by BritNat KH is that being in a union with 3 other countries is better than being in a union with 27 other countries, something about shared endeavour.

      Voting against something, having it imposed anyway then having your parliaments powers removed is not shared endeavour, it is ‘might is right’. I don’t think there is any indignity that these BritNats would find unacceptable.

    84. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Daisy Walker (2.46) –

      Great stuff.

      A couple of decades ago, what you wrote there would be dismissed by many as paranoid nonsense, but we have access to a lot of info previous generations could never have dreamed of ever seeing, and we’ve had time enough to make sense of at least some of it, join a few of the many dots.


    85. cirsium says:

      @Daisy Walker, 2.46pm

      Thanks for that comment- bang on target.

      We are running out of time.

    86. jfngw says:

      I see the Times believes we are all under the control of Russia and China, how long before it becomes a Scottish MSM stories (excluding the Herld which has been in the vanguard of this for some time, and already believes they are everywhere).

      This could almost be from a Herald story, as a leading Herald journalist stands in Buchanan Street shouting at the passing shoppers:

      ‘Look, you fools, you’re in danger! Can’t you see?! They’re after you!
      They’re after all of us! Our wives, our children, everyone! THEY’RE HERE, ALREADY! YOU’RE NEXT!’

    87. Hamish100 says:


      I suspect the truth is even worse than you described but the simple issue of the greed of the establishment to protect their wealth is at the core. These guy’s don’t care about anything else other than power.

    88. jfngw says:

      Brian Wilson believes we can only see the full potential of the Scottish Parliament when the SNP are removed (not his exact words but it is what he means).

      Of course his ‘full potential’ is being subservient to WM and having similar powers to an English council. That’s how Holyrood was designed when he was active in Labour, now of course he is just a jumped up nobody that attends SIU events.

    89. mumsyhugs says:

      Call me Dave

      Coco – as in Coco Chanel and Coco the Clown? 🙂

    90. call me dave says:


      Aye! If the big shoes fit gotta wear them.

      Ooh! Goal! Dundee Utd: 1-1 Pen Quiet day on the footie front 🙂

      Only thing radio shortbread does reasonably well.

    91. Capella says:

      @ Daisy Walker 2.46 pm – great summary of the nonsense of BREXIT.

      The DUP are also complicit in funelling £450,000 from that obscure Scottish company to the LEAVE campaign so that they could flood London with pamphlets advocating LEAVE. Illegal. But who is going to take them to court?

    92. galamcennalath says:

      Capella says:

      Illegal. But who is going to take them to court?

      Someone needs to get put in the pokey! I won’t hold my breath.

      The far right BritNats have learnt a lesson …. they know they can overspend and use dodgy online techniques and get away with it! For sure they will try it again in defence of their realm in IndyRef2.

      What we must do is call them out during the campaign, not months/years after. Ordinary punters wouldn’t like the idea they are being manipulated and steered by dodgy money from even dodgier people.

      The Chan4 docu-drama on Monday might open some eyes.

    93. Ken500 says:

      The UK Union and the EU are completely different. Some fools do not even know the difference. Appalling ignorance fostered by the appalling ignorant low life Press. The facts can be generated in five minutes on the internet. Ignorant incompetents.

      The UK Union is a historical lying clutterfast. Led by appalling incompetents. Of criminality like no other. Lying, cheating, embezzling. Illegal activity. Most of the should be in jail. A force for evil. A total waste of space, time and money. Stuck up unionist slaverers. The sight of them is enough. Milking Scotland dry.

      The EU union is a democratic institution trying to make people happier and more prosperous. Stopping wars and starvation after 11WW. In that they have succeeded. The nearest, biggest market, good social conditions and equality Laws etc. A force for good. Worth every penny.

      The Brian Wilson doing any good in the world. A fine musician. The other a sychophant nincompoop. Dirty jobber.

    94. robertknight says:

      The Demented Ulster Puritans would sell their own grannies for glue if needed.

      They’re shortly to go from being inside the Tory tent, pissing out, to stepping outside the tent and pissing in.

      Someone best tell TM to put her wellies on.

    95. galamcennalath says:

      robertknight says:

      Demented Ulster Puritans

      Very good 🙂

      Dangerous people!

    96. Ken500 says:

      The problem that will need more administration to check and search every lorry and documentation. That is why the quenes will form. They will not just flow through as they did before. There will be more checking going in and out because of lack of agreement. Mutual agreement. The UK status conforms to EU regulations ar present. If they is no agreement they will not in the future. It will be virtually more difficult to operate a business. What rules and documentation to comform. Domthe business just make them up. They will not conform.

      The Gov of a country decides the rules/Laws business abides or adhere – measurement standards etc. If the Gov does not lay down the ground rules. It is a free for all. An impossible situation. Complete and utter madness. Pandemonium.

      That is why May is still trying to maintain EU regulation. To remove it – what replaces it. Where are the rules on a website to comply. To add communication and regulation. It is not taking back control. It is losing control, A free for all. Unless EU Law/Rules /rules still apply. The goods wil just be rejected at the borders and returned. More expense, waste of time and money. A recipe for disaster. Goods will be coming back. Perishable goods will perish. Fish, meat etc will perish. They can only be refrigerated for a certain time.

      Flowers, fruit and vegetables will perish in the queues. Firms will go bankrupt. Foreign firms will not do business. Or trade because of the difficulties. There will be no profit. Unless prices rises to cover the time and administration. Prices will go up and less customers will be able to afford the goods. A complete recession and depression.

      Most of these Tory lunatics have never had a proper job in their life or business knowledge. They are out of touch with reality. They haven’t got a clue. Cameron has never had a proper job in his life. That is why he risked it. Absolutely no experience of proper, normal life. Completely ignorant and Incompetent. A complete dangerous chancer.

      Another thing totally overlooked is cost of transport. Having to transport goods further or fly goods about, makes it more expensive. Flying is only possible for small, light goods goods, Otherwise there is an extra cost for the freight charges,. Making goods dearer. It is far cheaper to use sea vessels than aircraft by comparison.

    97. Capella says:

      @ galamcennalath – I doubt many people watch Ch4. I will certainly watch on catch up as we don’t need a licence for Ch4 player.

      I’ve been listening to Noam Chomsky “Necessary Illusions” on how people are manipulated by the media on behalf of the oligarchs who mostly own it (talking book). So I don’t hold out much hope of enlightenment dawning from that direction.

      Still, would be interesting to hear what Ch4 has to say.

    98. Stravaiger

      I agree – this is why WM was so anxious to stop the Scottish Article 50 Court case.

      The ERG/DUP are pushing for a No deal. T May wants her deal accepted. They can dismiss a second EU ref as undemocratic and disregarding the ‘will of the people” so they definitely didn’t want another option to confuse things especially when it was something as attractive and sensible as cancelling Brexit…oh no, they definitely don’t want that.

      It is hard to accept ‘no deal’ as the only solution when you can cancel Brexit.

      However, being able to cancel Brexit is what makes it so difficult for Nicola.
      I guess we shall have to sit back and watch January slip away without any decision being reached.

      Crazy situation, but think how many more people will be spooked by ‘Leave’ by then.

    99. Merkin Scot says:

      Mrs. May will be able to say, by the end of January, that she has achieved a deal that takes all the ‘bad bits’ of leaving the EU away. So, really, no material change for Scotland.
      That means no need for a new ref for Scotland as the Vow re the EU has been fulfilled. A rejuvenated UK will be stronger and more stable.
      I do know that she will be lying about that but that is how it will be spun.

    100. Maria F says:


    101. Essexexile says:

      geeo @1.43pm.
      I have to strongly disagree with this post.
      I can only assume you aren’t particularly familiar with world history, more specifically the behaviour of despots once they achieve power.
      Have a read up about Hitler and Stalin’s purges in the 1930s, Saddam Hussein’s violent restructuring of the Ba’ath party in 1979 and Robert Mugabe’s manipulation of the eligible electorate in recent decades.
      All of these awful abuses of power were borne of the desire to extinguish the dissenting voice.
      Thankfully, the SNP (and the wider political establishment in Scotland) are not remotely likely to start forcing people to swear allegiance to an indefinitely independent Scotland. Far more likely (and this has been obvious for some time), NS and the SNP will actively move to distance themselves from the small group of fruitcakes and loonies that helped them get over the line on the first day after independence.
      Be quite sure, anybody with daft ideas about purging the political system of anybody likely to question the regime will be nowhere near power.

    102. Maria F says:

      Stravaiger says:
      5 January, 2019 at 1:49 pm

      I agree with your interpretation. Since day one I was convinced the tories were after a “no deal” scenario and a few things over these 2 years have helped to confirm this for me and this is my interpretation:

      1. The tax evasion regulations the EU is about to implement. When you look at the timings for how these regulations have evolved, who vetoed them in the past and the timings for Cameron announcing for first time that he would include the ref in the manifesto, the announcing of the date of the ref and of course the impeccable timing of the release of the Panama and Paradise papers with those taxdodgers’ names mentioned on them, I had no doubts that this regulation was somehow the drop that filled up the tory glass. Remaining in the single market and customs union will require the UK to abide by EU regulations, therefore it has to be a no deal to rid completely of that tax avoidance regulation. The participation in the brexit campaign of some well known taxdodgers linked to tax havens hints to this. It is those timings what makes me suspicious of Cameron’s real intentions. I think brexit was always in the cards for the tories. I don’t think Cameron was the remainer he claimed to be.

      2. Tax evasion may have been a reason, but not the only one. Brexit was a door to several opportunities for the tories. One of those opportunities is to neuter Holyrood to push away the threat of independence. I firmly believe the excuse of brexit has been used by the tories as a trial to see if they could succeed in taking back from HOlyrood powers that are devolved. Sadly, as we have seen, they succeeded on that confirming that the supreme court is a mickey mouse court that will not lift a finger to protect Holyrood. The timing of all this smelled fishy. The tories already started to talk about stealing our powers well before the deal agreement was even drafted. Why the rush? A deal with the EU may have stipulated for those powers to remain under their custody, so why the rush? The only plausible explanation I can find is that they already, at that point, knew that there would not be a deal with the EU. They knew that the theft of the powers from Holyrood was going to be contested in the courts so they needed plenty of time to have control of those powers before the end of March 2019. Having stolen those 24 powers before knowing how that deal would look like told me that May deal is bogus and will never be accepted. If we were bound by a deal that included those powers, why going through the hassle of alienating the people of Scotland and increase support for independence? Because the tories are aiming for something much bigger.

      3. Absolute control over many rules, regulations and our rights. With the excuse of brexit, the tories can now rewrite the whole thing, including our devolution settlement, to drop standards for the sake of corporations, ditch our rights and ditch the health and safety regulations that are protecting us.

      4. A dodgy USA-UK deal is in the cards. Very early on after the EU referendum, some individuals from the tory party started to work hard like little ants for such a deal. This deal will of course be a stepping stone in the tories ultimate goal: neoliberalism on steroids with totally free trade no matter the real cost.

      This deal is however unpalatable for most in the UK, because it will involve dropping UK food and drink standards to a level that will be low enough for USA to sell us all their crap food, such as the chlorinated chickens and the hormone fed beef, besides GM modified food and other disgusting “delicacies”.

      You can read about this:
      “Exposed: The Tory-Trump Plan to Kill Food Safety with Brexit Chicken” by Guest, February 2018,
      Accessed on online on DESMOGUK

      “Tory MP says chlorine-washing chicken means ‘clean chicken'”
      (October 2018)
      Accessed online on FarmingUK

      But it is not food only what USA wants to sell us. No, American health companies want a stake on our NHS, which no doubt will be privatised and the money of UK taxpayers will be channeled directly into USA’s coffers. Sounds like a nice way to prop up the dollar.
      You can read about this:

      “Let American firms run hospitals, urges free trade group”
      by Oliver Wright (September 2018)
      Accessed online on The Times.

      I doubt this was concocted overnight. I wonder how long the tories have been planning for this and I am wondering if the privatisation of the NHS in England was in preparation for this.

      This “deal” with the USA is by no means at early stages. Here is a “white paper” where Hannan is one of the authors from some thinktank:

      “The Ideal U.S.-U.K. Free Trade Agreement: A Free Trader’s Perspective”, By Daniel J. Ikenson, Simon Lester, and Daniel Hannan (September 2018)
      Accessed online on CATO Institute

      Hannah has been in USA TV promoting this deal (you can see him in youtube. Just search by “What could a trade deal between the US and UK look like?”) and one of the things he said was that the aim of the trade deal aims for “whatever is legal in the USA, is legal in the UK. And this should apply to services, professional qualifications, if a drug is approved by the FDA that should be enough for it to be accepted by the UK, etc”.

      the man has written quite a bit:

      “Daniel Hannan: We no longer need to imagine a free trade deal with the USA – we’ve written one” By D. Hannnan (September 2018)
      Accessed online on ConservativeHome

      “Dan Hannan: A US-UK deal will revolutionize world trade”
      By Dan Hannan (September 2018)
      Accessed online on Washington Examiner

      We don’t hear much of it here, do we? My guess is that the common MSM does not talk about this because they don’t want to the people to see what is going on. But this “USA-UK” deal is quite advanced and there have been tories like Hannan very busy at work:

      “There’s now a US-UK trade deal ready to be signed”
      By Ted Bromund (September 2018)
      Accessed online on Brexitcentral

      The tories keep saying that this deal with USA will not affect the food standards of the UK. But that is a lie of cosmic proportions. It is a lie because our food industry will never be able to compete with the cheap food coming from elsewhere and if our shelves are infested with low quality food, how on earth are we going to be able to guarantee our standards and sell our quality food to EU? So it looks to me that the tories are willing to sacrifice our food industry and our health service for their ideology. I think it should be investigated exactly what the vested interests of each and every single one of the tories MPs, MSPs and MEPs on this.

      Now, the average citizen does not want crap food in the supermarket shelves and I suspect farmers are going to put up a fight over this. The deal is unpalatable for the UK other than the tories. So how are they going to convince us?

      My opinion is that they have already started, by the fearmongering of food and medicine shortages, customs backlogs and the lot. Here of course we have May’s useful idiots in the form of Mundell and Tomkins demanding everybody to back the “deal”, a deal that is bogus. But what matter is the word “deal”. That is what need to stick to the citizens minds.

      I would not have a doubt that these corrupt tories would let it go to the point of leaving our supermarket shelves empty for a few days/weeks to make us beg for that USA-UK deal. A deal that I am certain is ready to go and just waiting for the precise moment to kick in.

      I have not doubts that Theresa May’s deal has always been a bogus. A deal that is rejected pretty much by everyone. I think It was designed to be impossible to deliver so it was never accepted. In my view its aim was to make the option of “no deal” more palatable. But this dirty game only works if the public and the MPs believe that there are only 2 options: a no deal and May’s deal. Their sordid little game got busted when the Scottish politicians went to the ECJ and this ruled that A50 can be unilaterally revoked. Ruling that the tories fought tooth and nail for it not to see the light because that would be the game changer.

      I don’t bite for a second that May suspended the vote on her deal for lack of support. I think she suspended the vote on the deal because should the deal be trashed on that day, there would be plenty of time for revoking A50 even for having a people’s vote and their beloved brexit and neoliberal paradise would be in tatters. These crooks will run down the clock to the wire to take away from the MPs the possibility of revoking A50 and sending all their grand plans down the tubes. It was immediately after that ruling from the ECJ that “weird” things started to happen, like drones invading airports, ferry companies without ferries being hired, the threat of deployment of 3500 military personal for brexit, the movement of Scotland’s police onto NI’s border, more fearmongering about shortages of medicines and food, the increase in brexit budgets (for England, because Scotland, Wales and NI are seeing peanuts of it), etc. This tells me that the ruling of the ECJ sent these corrupt tories into overdrive and melt down.

      The tory crooks started by stealing 24 powers of our powers. Now that they know they can steal those, they will try with everything else. I can immediately think in the control of our NHS to sell it to USA too, of course trashing our ban in GM produce, trashing our moratorium in fracking and everything else that is an obstacle for their beloved neoliberalism.

      Scotland really, really needs to get out of this rotten union. This is looking very grim for us. Their greed will siphon everything Scotland has of value and will make this beautiful country a barren land.

    103. Hamish100 says:


      Interesting that the Labour Party in Wales ( sub office) still peddle their lies that they have the best public services. Of course while making comparisons they miss out Scotland. Still I suppose we are far enough away for them not to care!

    104. Stravaiger says:

      Maria F, I agree with every word.

    105. geeo says:

      @essexmissile…(intended spelling)

      Piss poor attempt at completely and deliberatly trying to misrepresent my post.

      Your desperation shines though in every post.

    106. Essexexile says:

      Just reread your post and it’s clear what you propose.
      Every totalitarian state in history evolved from a small group of individuals relentlessly agreeing with each other and being unable to tolerate any form of criticism.
      An indy Scotland run according to the ideological lines of some of the more ‘excitable’ Wingers would be a pretty scary place.

    107. geeo says:

      @essexmissile. (Again, intended spelling).

      I said this..

      “A pledge to take office including a line about recognising Scots independent status forever, under threat of removal from office if not doing so would be interesting”

      Note: a)”a line about” and b) “interesting”

      a) A vague suggestion about the permanance of an independent Scotland written into the swearing in process.

      b) how current unionists would react to such a thing as mentioned in a).


      Are you calling the American Pledge of Allegiance, a despotic fascist action, yada yada etc, akin to Hitler, Stalin etc…?

      Or how about WM requirements to even take your seat AFTER the people have elected you ?

      I am pleased you do not agree with my post, as i would hate to share your gibbering nonsense views.

    108. Maria F says:

      Essexexile says:
      5 January, 2019 at 6:55 pm

      “An indy Scotland run according to the ideological lines of some of the more ‘excitable’ Wingers would be a pretty scary place”

      Not as scary and lethal as the neoliberalism hell the tories have in mind for Scotland if we do not head for the emergency exit door and soon.

      So you see, everything is relative. You always need to provide a reference. A post brexit UK run by neoliberalism ideology obsessed tories is my idea of scary place, a nightmare actually.

      As a reflection, I find incredibly ironic and laughable to a point that “independence supporters” and corbynistas such as Cat Boyd keep parroting about the “horrible” neoliberalism of the EU and why we need brexit without paying attention to the tory neoliberal tsunami that is entering the UK by the back door those corbynistas are leaving open with brexit and that is about to engulf the lot of them.

    109. Proud Cybernat says:

      Dangerous people!

      Dangerous Unhinged People.

    110. Iain says:

      I hope Nicola is reading Wings and I trust you are,Scotland is counting on you to step in and save us from the impending oblivion.
      The potential end of the Scottish independence movement is close unless we can say that the act of union has been abused and call indy referendum 2 about the 17th of January.
      That should stop Brexit in its tracks.
      The resulting anti Scottish backlash should see us free.
      I don’t envy you Nicola, you will earn your money if you see us free.
      It’s your chance to live in Scots hearts for ever or die in obscurity.
      We know you will do the right thing.

    111. Dr Jim says:

      The swearing in of politicians and their allegiances would have to be changed in an Independent Scotland as there would be a new constitution designed for Scotland, it could not possibly follow any previous arrangements made for any other country, Union or organisation and if any prospective candidate for office in Scotland were not prepared to do that they would not be accepted as candidates for that office in exactly the same way as every other country has the same process for its own parliaments and legislatures

      Swearing an oath of allegiance to the country parliament and people you intend to serve is a reqirement of every country in the world, Yoons won’t like it but they’ll either do it or walk, but knowing Yoons they’ll do it wae their lip trembling and their backbones melted out of shape to fit their principles

      And you know who’ll be first in the queue to bend her unprincipled knee, Ruth Davidson because she’s already been told by the Moggster and Co there’s no place for her in the Conservative party at Westminster, followed right behind by the Dugdale

    112. Capella says:

      Interesting On Contact discussion about the forgiveness of debt in ancient cultures and Rome because they knew what a social disaster debt slavery is.

      The Roman oligarchs managed to assassinate any consul who represented the plebs and wanted debt cancelled regularly. This hastened the fall of the republic.

      Looks like modern times.

    113. Maria – I don’t doubt your reasons and they are well laid out. This semblance of chaos is too disconcerting.

      Ken Clarke was on the radio this morning. He said that Leaving with no deal was barmy and made no sense. He also pointed out that this is just the Withdrawal Agreement, not the actual trade deals which will take years to sort out. We should have been voting on this 6 months after Article 50 was triggered to allow for months of negotiating the trade deals.
      To him, the obvious thing to do at this stage is revoke Article 50 and cancel Brexit and possibly look again at exiting some years down the road once we know what we want.

      Scotland will get out of this mess – that is exactly why this group exists.
      We will get another chance and we shall have to try harder, convert one person each and tell everyone we know what we know.

      The time is coming for everyone to have to make a decision – not just the MPs at WM.

      We are the lucky ones because we have another option.

    114. Cubby says:


      “Small group of fruitcakes and loonies” – this is a description of independence supporters that a Britnat would choose to write on a public forum.

      Essexexile @6.55pm

      “Excitable wingers …..pretty scary place” who are these excitable wingers that are going to create a scary independent Scotland? Another Britnat comment.

    115. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Maria F.

      RE: your comments in the past hour…

      Apologies if this has been posted already but I saw, firstly, a screengrab of a tweet, then later, a link to the original source.

      I’ll only quote the original screengrab. I’ll provide the link to the original source so yooz can explore the 1300+ comments.
      “Jason R Wyndham says:
      March 04, 2018 at 12:40 PM
      The Scottish and UK parliaments do not work well together. For example, when the UK leaves the EU and we begin negotiating our trade agreement with the USA it will be necessary to include the UK as a whole, undivided market in these negotiations.

      These trade deals will not work if there are different sets of standards and rules in Scotland and England, the standards must be the same.

      There are two ways of achieving this, either we come to an agreement between the Scottish and UK parliaments or the UK parliament takes control of the powers needed to agree the trade deals and makes the decisions on behalf of everyone.

      If we ask Scotland to negotiate they will demand higher standards of food, pesticide use, environmental protections, employee protections, state ownership of healthcare etc. Given that we must lower these standards to the same level of the US if we want to trade with them, any say by the Scottish Parliament will scupper our chances of a US trade deal.

      This is why the powers currently held in Europe must come to Westminster after brexit. Otherwise if the Jocks have a say they will ruin it for all of us. Can you imagine if we have to ask their permission to include their NHS in our trade deal with America? They would never agree, this is why we need to neuter the devolved parliaments and return control to London.”

    116. crazycat says:

      OT – less than 2 days to go on our crowdfunder (so I’ll shut up about it soon!) :

      I really do appreciate that people have other far more important expenses, so I’m just asking people to publicize it if they can, in case there are others out there with a bit to spare. We’re clearly not going to receive as much as last year when it was a new exciting venture, but 25% would be nice 🙂 . (There are perks too.)

    117. Proud Cybernat says:

      It must be hard for the 77th on here as it must truly be an education to them as to how unequal the UK is, how atrociously Scotland is treated within this so-called ‘Union’ and how, ultimately, the UK establishment won’t give a shit about them or their efforts here on WoS. The present crop of 77th only have to look at how many of their previous comrades have vanished from this site – they couldn’t stand the truth of what this site shows them about how the UK operates. And the UK doesn’t give a shit about any of the 77th or the security forces in general. Anyone can see that by looking at the number of armed forces personnel living on our streets with zero support from HMG.

      Keep up the good work 77th – you won’t be rewarded for it. That’s a definite.

    118. Essexexile says:

      I fully agree that a new (or at least heavily revised) constitution will be required when we achieve independence.
      But, let’s be very honest here about some Winger’s motivations. A deliberate attempt to marginalise internal opposition to the newly indy Scotland out of petulant spite would be reckless thing to do and very out of character for the SNP.
      One of the many moments in recent years, the summation of which was my gradual conversion to yes, was Mhairi Black’s fantastically eloquent speech immediately after becoming an MP in 2015. Despite being the epitome of ‘hard line indy’ she straight away sought to reassure those who voted against her that their interests were as important to her as those of her backer’s.
      Nobody should pushing for such inclusive politicians to start purging the political classes post indy.

    119. Dr. Jim

      In the words of the song, in our brand new Independent Scotland we will need –
      ‘a body else that can haud up a ploo for the mucking’ o Geordie’s byre’

      If Ruth Davidson and Kezia have been discarded by their current parties, then perhaps they will finally see what we already know, that the only way ahead is an Independent Scotland.

      We shall certainly need a Caretaker Committee to get us up and running, over the initial hurdles and to the point where we can hold genuine elections to begin to form a new Government from new parties.
      Think of the talent we have – Nicola, Alex, John Sweeney, Mhairi Black, Ian Blackford, Angus mcNeill, Jeanne Freeman, Dennis Canavan, our Advocates, economists, surgeons, education experts, and a whole host of brilliant people who are waiting to lead us out into the world.

      We shall have to create a new government of opinions that ALL have the well-being of an I-Scotland and her people; ordinary people who are prepared to do extra-ordinary things to get this beautiful country strongly running on her own steam.

      It won’t be a walk in the park and we shall all have to be patient but we will be free and walking that extra mile will be easy when we are doing it for SCOTLAND.

      We have to be ready to take the biggest jumps of our lives when Nicola shouts ‘Now!’ so be prepared peeps because ‘it’s coming for a’ that’.

    120. Rock says:

      Cubby says:
      5 January, 2019 at 2:59 pm

      “My conclusion is that we are not all Independence supporters on a Wings. Britnat Coco.”

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says: (By hook or by Cook)
      25 January, 2018 at 12:03 pm

      “Not everyone who disagrees with you on something is a troll or an MI5 agent.”

    121. Proud Cybernat says:

      Hey Rock – HMGov doesn’t give a shit about your efforts here. They really don’t. You’re working foe the dark side of the Evil Empire, mate. Time you told them to eff off.

      Go on – you can do it. Many 77th on here already have when they saw the light.

    122. Ian @ 7.13

      What a mixed bunch of thoughts you write…. sorry but I have to take you up on couple of them.

      Why call Indy on 17th January? T May can then cancel Brexit anytime between Jan 18th and March 29th net result Scotland stays in the SM and CU and previous no voters would vote No again.

      Also, I’m not quite sure how an Anti-Scottish backlash would set us free – I would have thought it would possibly mean extreme measures taken to ensure we cannot sever the Union.

      Nicola is not currently sitting on her posterior waiting till she thinks there is something to do, she is fighting this with every breath she takes – so she is currently earning her money now and even if we don’t achieve Indy this time, she will most certainly NOT die in obscurity. At least you realise that she will do the right thing and that might mean NOT calling an Indy ref on Jan 17th……

      but the main statement I disagree with you is your notion that the end of the Scottish Independence movement is nigh. Nope, no way Hosé

      The Scottish Independence movement will NEVER die.
      Our Ancestors fought for it in 1314, they explained why poetically and beautifully in 1320 at Arbroath and down the ages, time and again, people have stood up when Scotland has needed them to defend her.
      It is our turn to carry the torch and the Dream will never die.

    123. dakk says:

      Stravaiger said

      ‘The city states will compete for the business of the rich, who will pay relatively small flat rates for the privilege, and the poor will- well, who cares?1.

      Governments are a form of protection racket that take money from rich people to pay for services that they don’t use.’

      Too true.

      We don’t need Rees Mogg’s da’ to tell us that.

      The ubiquitous ‘Turkish’ barbers and Chinese nailbars money washing right under the noses of the ‘authorities’ tells anyone with half a brain what’s afoot.

    124. wull2 says:

      Other Social Media sites have a limit on the number of caricatures you can use, I think we should use something like this, only limit the amount of words in a post, to stop some people clogging up the site.

    125. Proud Cybernat says:

      Not sure if anyone else has noticed this? During IndyRef1 whenever an Indy poll was conducted on Soc Media, the result was always YES (in favour of Indy) by around 80-85%. NOW whenever such a poll is conducted on SocMed the result is usually between 90-95% YES. Anecdotal but, well, y’know. . .

    126. Dr Jim says:

      No not heavily revised constitution, a *new* constitution and nobody not one single soul has suggested *purging* anybody from anything, Scotland will require and demand the same respect every other country does from its elected members of parliament

      If any prospective member feels they owe any allegiance elsewhere to some other country then they will not be invited to take up any political position within Scotland just as it is in every other country in the world without deviation

      These rules are the same everywhere and are not a disbarment indeed they are an incentive to work for the people and country to which you aspire to serve

      The SNP MPs had to swear an oath to the UK parliament and HM the Queen in order to take their seats at Westminster, that was a requirement of that parliament and they did it because Scotland, the country they represent was part of that Union, in a new Independent Scotland there will be no Union so it naturally follows that no one will be swearing an oath to a non existent entity within an Independent Scotland

      It’s over for England, suck it up and get used to it, the world has moved on

    127. Dr Jim @ 7.14

      Jim I honestly believe that those who have actively stood against Scotland those who we can call ” non patriots” as strong as is allowed on here, must not be permitted to stand for office in an independent Scotland.

      They should be called to account, permitted to leave if they wish but if they remain there can be no more anti Scottish business from them.

      I know there is a need for reconciliation as we have after say a war, but those who have actively attacked the country must be called to answer.

      There must be consequences for the liars.

    128. Cubby says:

      It is always funny when a phoney Independence supporter Britnat on Wings defends another phoney independence supporter Britnat. Yes that’s you Rockshit defending Britnat coco.

      Similarly when a Britnat proves his point by linking to a Daily Mail article – laughable – clowns.

    129. Dr Jim says:

      @Proud Cybernat

      There’s less of us with damaged knuckles to work the complicated internet buttons

      I couldn’t help myself hee hee!

    130. Dr Jim says:

      @Jason Smoothpiece 8.32pm

      You have to have a care with that outlook because where do you draw the line and who do you demonise, there are people who genuinely believe what they believe so without the facility of a 100% lie detector or an infallible personality checker, who can be assured of what anybody thinks or has or hasn’t changed their minds about anything, and the danger of that is you start down the wrong road of mistrusting everybody till proven innocent instead of the other way round

    131. Essexexile says:

      Dr Jim.
      It’s a big shame that your perfectly reasonable point was undermined by the very next post.
      I’m very glad that you and I are much closer in our politics to those who will be deciding EVERYONE’S future in a newly indy Scotland.
      Worrying traits of embryonic fascism in some who post on these pages.

    132. Cubby says:

      Essexexile @7.44pm

      “Heavily revised constitution” what does the current one say that you want to keep and where is it written?

      I too remember being converted to unionism one day after hearing a Ross Thomson speech. Despite being the epitome of a hard line Tory arsehole his fantastically eloquent speech touched a cord in my heart. Aye right. Britnats what a load of chancers.

    133. You are right we must not go pointing at people who only exercised their rights to support a system which they were fully entitled to support.

      But there are those who went beyond voting a particular way or even campaigning for a system which they supported.

      There are those who actively lied and accepted dark money and other forms of support knowingly to damage the Scottish nation.

      It would not fall to a mere prole like me to decide on whether an individual or a group had acted intentionally or illegally against the interest of the country.

      We have many learned judges who would be capable of carrying out an enquiry into the years leading to indy 1&2.

      I believe it would be right to call those anti Scottish individuals or groups to account.

    134. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @ Essexexile –

      Would you mind explaining who you are referring to?

    135. Essexexile says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      Scan back the last few hours of posts. It’s blindingly obvious to anyone who shows even a modicum of maturity about their politics, or has a knowledge of the early history of despotic regimes in the 20th century.

    136. geeo says:

      Essexmissile (still deliberate spelling)

      See that post where you are trying to sook Dr Jim’s ass juices ?

      He does not appear to agree with your earlier verbal skitters, so why do you think he does ?

      Asking for a friend …

    137. Rock says:

      Cubby says:
      5 January, 2019 at 8:32 pm

      “Similarly when a Britnat proves his point by linking to a Daily Mail article – laughable – clowns.”

      Why do you read the Daily Mail if you are not a Britnat?

    138. ronnie anderson says:

      Grayling should take note in the words of Admiral Nelson [ I see no ships )

    139. You know what Meg independence will never die, I have not been a member of the Snp since I was 15, 45 years ago.
      We are never ever going to give up

    140. Rock says:

      Jason Smoothpiece says:
      5 January, 2019 at 8:57 pm

      “We have many learned judges who would be capable of carrying out an enquiry into the years leading to indy 1&2.”

      The “independent” Scottish justice system is rotten to the core and the vast majority of lawyers, especially judges, are the lowest of the low.

      So called “human rights lawyers” included. They trouser hundreds of thousands while people starve in Scotland.

      The Scottish judges who jailed the innocent Libyan for the Lockerbie bombing should have been jailed for life – in the absence of the death penalty.

    141. Ken500 says:

      Corbyn Labour 1979.

      Three day weeks. Candles Electricity rationed in rotation. Like a third world state. Continual strikes. Rubbish piled in the streets. The dead not getting buried. Thatcher/Tories got in. To further ruin the economy. Unemployment 18%+ interest rates 15%+ inflation up to 25%. Starving the people. Social unrest, riots and violence. Then after that crowd got kowtowed. In comes Blair to great aplomb and hysteria. To bomb the world to bits and maim and murder millions. Then in comes LibDems. Voted in to protect NHS and Education. They cut both by £Billions. Then back comes the Tories again to muck up and ruin the economy. Brexit they had planned and contrived for forty years.

      Add in illegal wars, financial fraud, tax evasion and the rest. The UK the biggest wealth inequality in the world, with the highest debt. Now the Brexit catastrophe.

      Scotland never voted for any of this. Fleeced by lying, scheming Unionists.

    142. Essexexile says:

      As I said, ‘..anyone who shows even a modicum of maturity’.

    143. CameronB Brodie says:

      England has a perceived immigration problem while Scotland has an actual immigration requirement. England’s perception requires that Scotland’s need goes unheeded, again. Without a visible legal identity it is impossible to claim rights.

      Do Scots really trust the English New Right to respect their rights? That’s British rights not universal rights.

      Migration Crisis and “Brexit”

      Migration and Brexit

      ….It was free movement within the EU, however, which became, and has remained, the key issue in relation to Brexit. The refugee crisis had already created the image of a Union unable to handle the situation, and Leave campaigners raised the spectre of up to eighty million Turks joining the EU and enjoying the right of free movement. As Gurminder K. Bhambra (2017) has suggested, the campaign blurred the distinction between recent movement from Eastern Europe into the UK, the (very small) number of refugees also allowed to enter, and the earlier migrations from the Caribbean and South Asia.5

      In the UK, as elsewhere in Europe, those who opposed migration generally did not distinguish between different categories of migrants, making no exception for refugees.6 It was common to hear prospective Leave voters justifying their preference by claiming that there were too many people in Britain from Pakistan and Afghanistan; I suspect there was a spillover in which this hostility extended to Eastern Europeans. “Migration” in this context tended to be understood as relatively permanent immigration, rather than shorter-term or seasonal mobility from elsewhere in the EU or from elsewhere; the often deliberate failure by the UK political establishment to draw this distinction was politically very significant.

    144. Ken500 says:

      The Blair Labour/unionists. imposed , appointed Judges. Manipulated by Westminster unionists before Devolution. Nothing to do with Scotland. Imposed by Westminster lunatics.

    145. geeo says:

      It appears to be the usual loonies Rock and coco, plus one more per topic, this week.

      Talking of which, notice it dodged the question of the American pledge of allegiance also being an example of hitler/Saddam/Stalin type behaviour…according to a previous post.

      As Dr Jim says, as i also alluded to, having a pledge of allegiance type swearing into political office is NORMAL all over the world.

    146. Ken500 says:

      Robert Black Labour unionist?

    147. David P says:

      Feeling badly under the weather, with a nasty cough and a splitting headache. Tried to make things better by writing some pro-Indy haiku. I was very pleased with this one.

      Brexit shambles… Or
      Independence in Europe?
      Simple choice really.

    148. twathater says:

      Maria F @ 6.31pm Maria I have read many of your comments here and elsewhere and I always agree with your assertions and views , and this time no different .

      Your breakdown and exposure of the planning and duplicity needed by these parasitical tory carpetbaggers requires widespread coverage , with that in mind I would ask that the next time you are putting comments in the MSM that you replicate and reproduce your comment to give it a wider audience.

      It inevitably will lead to accusations of conspiracy theorist from your friends in the brutish cringe brigade, which has never bothered you in the past , but it will cause other people to think which can only be good for indy

    149. Jockmcx says:

      Seem to remember that Gordon brown was being acclaimed
      As the saviour of the free world shortly after the banking crash.

      Until he mentioned doing something about those”tax havens”
      Whithin days he became persona non grata.

      Until the Scot ref that is,where he was allowed every opportunity
      To shit all over his own country.

    150. Maria F says:

      Brian Doonthetoon says:
      5 January, 2019

      Thank you for that, Brian. I am paralised with fear now, to be honest. What that guy is saying in that comment seems chillingly similar to what I interpret from what I am seeing. This is scary. It feels too real. They really are after all our useful powers, assets and our NHS, aren’t they?

      My question is are we going to stand a chance at independence at all once this gang of tory rogues ties our assets in a deal with the USA? Because one thing is fighting the English establishment machine, but a different beast entirely is fighting a united front between the English establishment and the USA big corporations’ interests.

      Do you know who Jason R Wyndham is? Is somebody linked to the tories?

      I wonder for how long the tories have been cooking up this. This was not made up overnight. This must have been in the pipeline at least since soon after the tories got to power. The Health and Social Care Act 2012 unlocked the back door to this privatisation, but the bill was introduced for first time to the HoC in January 2011. However some “papers” started to appear well before that, in July 2010 in the Telegraph, so very soon after the tories got to power.

      Coincidentally too, according to Wikipedia, Yougov started to conduct polls on brexit since at least 2010. So I really wonder how long have these tory crooks really been planning this? I wonder if our indyref1 was a hiccup in their plans and that is why now they chose to stole our powers and neuter our parliament to stop that happening again. I wonder if we would have had an earlier EU ref if it wasn’t because of indyref1.

      We need to get out of this union and soon. We need to get out before that deal with the USA is signed and passed by the UK Parliament otherwise we are really doomed. Because from where I am standing it looks like the tories are using brexit and that USA deal as the ultimate chain and padlock to neuter our Parliament and keep Scotland’s assets forever to the mercy of England.

    151. CameronB Brodie says:

      Poor show eh? We certainly won’t convince the undecided with that sort of discriminatory pish. 😉

    152. Ken500 says:

      Go and play with Rock next door. Or in the same room. Unionist HQ.

    153. Ken500 says:

      Not Cameron

    154. Essexexile says:

      Not when it’s a deliberate attempt to deny political representation to half of the electorate. Which is what you’re proposing and why your proposing it.
      Thank goodness your ilk will be officially dismissed as embarrassing bampots by NS on indy day +1.
      The only reason she’s been unable to say it already is that we’ll need every bampot we can get to make that 50%+1.

    155. Ken500 says:

      Just wait until the unionists collapse. Step over them and out the door. The rabble left will be in no fit state to protest.

    156. cirsium says:

      @MariaF, 9.37pm
      Because from where I am standing it looks like the tories are using brexit and that USA deal as the ultimate chain and padlock to neuter our Parliament and keep Scotland’s assets forever to the mercy of England.

      It looks like that to me as well

    157. Ken500 says:

      l,Daniel Blake. Go and have a look of that. Or ‘Cathy come Home’. 1966.

      The state of the unionist state.

      Nothing has changed in 60 years.

    158. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Essexexile –

      I’ve scrolled back through the comments on this post and it’s plain that you are referring to geeo.

      Why can’t you say so? And who are the other ‘excitable’ commenters who worry you?

    159. 83 days till brexit,

      everyone got their poker face on,

      UK Gov,
      UK Parliament,

      who will blink first,

      who holds the winning hand,

      83 days till the last breath of the Great Brutish Empire,

      mourned by none.

    160. CameronB Brodie says:

      I was actually looking at Jason Smoothpiece.

    161. Essexexile says:

      @CameronB Brodie
      Yes, quite.
      It’s hardly a strong campaigning tactic is it?
      ‘We promise that when we have achieved indy we’ll commence a round of finger pointing that’ll start with various newspaper editors and (once we’ve inevitably got a taste for it) will lead to the demonisation of anyone who’s ever purchased the Daily Record, voted Labour or cheered a Gavin Hastings try.’

    162. Anyone who really hates Scotland can choose to live elsewhere after Independence.

      Wonder how many will stay though – free prescriptions, free University tuition, baby boxes, more just tax rates, better standard of living…

      It won’t be easy to choose to live south of the border with its xenophobia, knife crime, crumbling NHS, poor trains, tuition fees, tory government and lots of other depressing facts of life.

    163. Maria there was a group called Atlantic Bridge which supposedly folded recently.
      Liam Fox was an active go-between until ‘outed’ and held WM Government positions at that time so I guess that was all part of it.

      Trump is on a shoogly peg now so that might give us some breathing space.

      Perhaps T May is actually a goodie ( can’t believe I’m writing this) and has agreed to a deal that Trump has called a bad deal for him and that is why she is so adamant at pushing it through time and again until it is voted in.

      What a bizarre situation all this is. Certainly a poker game with very high stakes.

    164. geeo says:

      Wipe your chin essexmissile.

      You slavered:

      “Not when it’s a deliberate attempt to deny political representation to half of the electorate”.

      No, the flat refusal of current uk unionist parties to embrace independence shall do that all by themselves. As currently constituted, they legally cannot operate post indy, that is a legal reality, or are you suggesting politicians from a foregn country can still operate in an indy Scotland ?

      Perhaps you think the 35 SNP MP’s (and 24 unionists) will still sit and vote at WM post indy?

      If you actual read my post, you would have read the bit where i clearly offer the solution where the 3 unionist parties form ENTIRELY NEW political parties to function in an indy Scotland.

      Here it is here in fact.

      geeo says:

      “If Labour or Tories in Scotland were to announce they are splitting from their party and forming a newly constituted independent Scottish Party, which is pro independence, they would immediately be able to claim to being the deciding factor which provided an independent Scotland, when the Yes vote is delivered.

      This puts that party in a much better position in the first Scottish GE post indy.

      The chance to be part of a parliament shaping the future of a wealthy independent Scotland, or political evisceration”.

      You can try misquote/misrepresent my posts all day long, but anyone with a brain cell and eyes can easily discover you are talking out your arse.

      You are fooling nobody.

      For the 3rd time, do you think the American pledge of allegiance is equatable to hitler/stalin etc of not ?

    165. Cubby says:

      Rock = Rockshit = Colinshit = Essexexileshit = Britnatshit.

    166. Sinky says:

      Westminster voting intention:

      CON: 40% (-1)
      LAB: 34% (-5)
      LDEM: 10% (+3)
      GRN: 4% (-)
      UKIP: 4% (+1)

      via @YouGov, 21 Dec – 04 Jan
      Chgs. w/ 17 Dec

      Explains why British Establishment via The Times newspaper is tuning its guns on Scotland as only the SNP are offering an alternative to Tory austerity and Brit Nat xenophobic politics.

    167. Fairliered says:

      Sinky, that is is net -2. Is the balancing +2 a 20% increase in the SNP vote? Looking forward to seeing the regional (Scottish) breakdown. Will be checking Scot Goes Pop for further details.

    168. Capella says:

      @ David P – haiku is a great idea. Here’s mine

      Waiting for the starting gun to fire
      In these
      Pre Independence

    169. CameronB Brodie says:

      Back on topic, here’s some Critical Migration Studies and stuff.

      Morals and the Right to Free Movement
      Insiders, outsiders and Europe’s migration crisis


      This article examines the right to free movement in the European Union (EU) and discusses the moral questions related to refugees in light of the current migration context. More specifically, in this article, I discuss the right to free movement in terms of its development into an EU citizenship right and assess the grounds for its validity. I argue that free movement was developed in a manner that puts too much emphasis on external threats coming from outside the EU borders. I also claim that the right to free movement is an exclusive concept that adds to the alienation between EU-citizens and the rest, which is also visible in the ongoing so-called migration crisis.

      Keywords: right to free movement; European Union integration; moral theories; migration; fundamental rights

      Free Movement of Persons and Migration—Free-Movement-of-Persons-%26-Migration-REPORT.pdf

      Free movement of persons, asylum and immigration

    170. Fairliered says:

      Rock. Thank fuck for scissors and paper – especially paper!

    171. Tatu3 says:

      I don’t see how Brexit being cancelled means Indy2 being cancelled. Ms Sturgeon said “if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU”
      So if independence is the “preferred option” or “such as” being taken out of the EU, so it could actually be some other reason, some other change in circumstance?

    172. yesindyref2 says:

      @Meg merrilees
      That’s the problem, it is possible May is on the side of the angels, fightng a rearguard action against a renamed or even unnamed Atlantic Bridge. We may never know.

    173. mac says:

      Anybody saw my fellow Glaswegian big Cactus about.

      Last seen on these pages until two nights ago when he was stuck in by two evil stuck up bastards on here.

      Evil Petra and evil Hamish 100, hang your heads in shame you two.

    174. yesindyref2 says:

      @CameronB Brodie
      Here’s one for you.
      In any society that’s beyond the elemental need to barely survive, you get some conspiracy theorists and normal people. But then some normal people evolve their own conspiracy theory (CT). Which they / we present with varying degrees of belief and assertion. So here’s the question:

      Is it normal and indeed essential, for a healthy democratic society to have CTists, and would it be healthier if they weren’t instantly dismissed, but generated a healthy debate, and perhaps a reluctance to dismiss out of hand any new CT?

    175. Luigi says:

      Meg merrilees @10:16 pm

      Meg, Trump and May are big players, but there are even bigger players behind them. There is a civil war going on within the global elites right now, to decide, no less who runs the world. Banking, drugs, human/child trafficking, elite satanist/peado rings, illegal wars, false-flag terrorists, assasinations in the middle east, Illuminate, Rothschilds, British royal family etc etc. IT IS ALL CONNECTED. Evil corrpution on an incredible scale. I thought this was all conspirency madness, but the more that is surfacing, the more the dots are being connected. There have been so many reports, so many whistle-blowers knocked off there must be some truth to this, no matter how incredible it seems to us lesser mortals. 2018 was chaotic. You ain’t seen nothing yet.

    176. Ken500 says:

      Daniel Blake died.

      Fact truer than fiction. The Westminster unionists have killed and mained million of people.

      Duncan Smith should be put in jail forever. Along with the rest of them.

      Westmibster surrounded by high iron rails. To keep them safe. Reminiscent of a prison. Guarded by the Police. They should be arrested for crimes against humanity.

      They should be voted out and end up in the Dock. If there was any justice.

    177. yesindyref2 says:

      Your post follows straight on mine. What I’ve learnt is not to instantly dismiss conspiracy theories out of hand as being wacky, but to at least give them a few moments thought, maybe even a small amout of research into the background and known (actual) facts.

      Yeah, and that’s it basically from me 😎

    178. Ken500 says:

      Petra is a darling and Hamish stuck up for her Along with several others.

      Some insults too near the bone and quite unnecessary.

      Don’t let an argument get in the way of the good facts. Printed in black and white.

      Kettle black.

    179. Hamish100 says:

      mac says:
      5 January, 2019 at 11:38 pm
      Anybody saw my fellow Glaswegian big Cactus about.
      Last seen on these pages until two nights ago when he was stuck in by two evil stuck up bastards on here.
      Evil Petra and evil Hamish 100, hang your heads in shame you two

      Aye evil empire us two right enough– Try growing up big mac.

    180. CameronB Brodie says:

      Conspiracy theories are bad, mk. They are especially prevalent in fake news environments. They can undermine social cohesion and public accountability.

      Conspiracy theories

      The conspiratorial worldview
      Recent research from PBS
      Conspiracy theorist and how they see the world

      Conspiracy Theory and Political Discourse

    181. CameronB Brodie says:

      P.S. Obviously, some ‘conspiracy theories’ are actually intuitions and suspicions of actual criminal activity.

    182. Gary45% says:

      Add Jimmy’s Hall /Rocket Post to the film list.
      There are many others that I have listed on previous posts.
      The whole UK empire stands in front of the Devil when it comes to jumping into the cesspit of depravity.

      Outwith the UK

      “The Occupation of the American Mind” is the main film I urge people to see, this is evil at its worst.
      And the world does NOTHING.

    183. Terence callachan says:

      Is there anyone here that has a reasonable comment
      That does not simply criticise another comment here
      Surely ideas and opinions are required and revered
      Sitting back and criticising other people’s opinions is worthless
      We are on the front line now
      What we need are ideas and opinions
      Criticising those on your side because they differ slightly from you is a waste of time
      If someone is in favour of Scottish independence
      Support what you agree with
      Ignore and make no comment on what you don’t agree with
      Surely you see that this is the joint front we must pursue

    184. yesindyref2 says:

      Thanks, currently reading the LSE one, always one of my favourite sources on, anything basically. I consider their research and papers to be pretty genuine and honest.

      Yeah fake news is one side, like the apparent footage of counts in Indy Ref 1 which turned out to be footage of counts in the USA, a totally different system. Likely put about to discredit Indy supporters in denial and looking for evidence of a “fix”, and prepared to accept anything that supported that view “we really won, honest guv”.

      But the other side I th ink is a healthy distrust of “the establishment” which undoubtedly does in some of its many aspects, get up to dirty tricks.

      It’s getting the balance is interesting – and personal 🙂

    185. Cubby says:

      Terence Callachan@12.36am

      Good try Terry old boy. You have been BUSTED. Britnat Terry.

      Still waiting for you to say where and when I threatened and swore at you. Just another example of a lying Britnat are you Terry old boy.

    186. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, that’s funny. First there’s this “This understanding of CTs also includes an idea called “monologicality”, which means that belief in one conspiracy theory predicts beliefs in many others.” which is interesting but uses the word “belief”, rather than being open-minded.

      But then it says this: “and shows that CT believers do not conform to the popular stereotype of being paranoid, cynical, asocial and politically disengaged” which in most if not all cases I agree with.

      Just because you’re paranoid, doesn’t mean “they’re” not out to get you 🙂

    187. yesindyref2 says:

      Regards the Kremlin thing, of course, there are some tweets, posts that are quite blatant, not very good quality. That opens up looking at the likes of, which clearly slants articles to a Russian point of view and anti-west, but at the same time viewed with that in mind can give info not easily found elsewhere which can be checked “officially”.

      And then perhaps with that awareness gets people to look at other sources – like the BBC and CNN – with a similar healthy scepticism. Realisation of that with the BBC when pointed out was a major reason for my own swift change from never having thought about Indy, to supporting it back in the early 70s. I’d noticed the inherent bias, but not really clocked it.

      It’s something the likes of Leask is curiously close-minded about. For him, RT is pure evil full stop. But it ain’t so, it’s another point of view and source of info and opinion used carefully – and suspiciously of course.

    188. yesindyref2 says:

      Anyways, I’m off air again, where’s Cactus, the nightwatchman? Who went a little too far the other night but is usually sound and wards off the night-time trolls. allowing the rest of us to sleep like babies 🙂

    189. Tatu 3

      I’m not necessarily saying that revoking Article 50 would by itself cancel a call for Indy ref 2. There is currently a group of previous No voters who may change to vote YES because they want to stay in the EU. Their votes are crucial to helping us get over the line.

      If Article 50 is revoked and the UK stays in Europe, these votes may stay as No and could harm our chances of success – hence I believe Nicola has to weave a narrow path here.

      Yes there are many other situations recently that have breached the Union, most notably taking the SG to court over the Continuity Bill and subsequently declaring it illegal and contesting the Article 50 case legally.

      The mere existence of a backstop border on the Irish sea will also breach the Union ( Clause 4 about free trade between each and every port within the UK)

      It is a very complicated matter but I trust Nicola and her advisors to lead us to safety.

    190. CameronB Brodie says:

      Looking for evidence of a “fix” and someone to blame, are common preoccupations of the marginalised and those who lack agency. It’s also a symptomatic behaviour of those attacked with symbolic violence, who tend to be those who are marginalised and lacking agency. It’s an everyday hazard for residents of Scotland. You don’t even need to be politically attuned to be afflicted, as the One Nation ideology pervades the Scottish lived experience. Just look at our street names and street architecture to see it’s impossible to escape the memory of events that some Scots find oppressive. That’s bad for the sole and can ultimately undermine social cohesion and individual creativity.

      The LSE is a source trusted by HMG, that’s why I always check it myself. I’d never rely on it as sole font of knowledge though. 😉

    191. Mac, Indy ref 2

      let’s hope Cactus is catching up on some much-needed sleep. We have a big fight coming up and we need all hands on deck when the time comes.

    192. CameronB Brodie says:

      Leask? You don’t get to where he is without having the correct world view.

    193. mac says:

      Regarding these asylum seekers,,,the English Government actually put their Army, Navy and Air Force on standby.

      All because of six asylum seekers in a rubber dingy.

      And going by the nick the English Armed Forces are in , six asylum seekers in a rubber dingy is probably all these English cowards are fit to attack anyway

    194. mac says:

      Evil Hamish

      Evil Petra

      It wiz them two wot dun it Cactus

      And a couple of other dirty cowards that stuck you in mate.

    195. CameronB Brodie says:

      Hostile prejudice isn’t really a qualities to be proud of, Mac.

    196. yesindyref2 says:

      The return of Danny I think.

    197. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2 @ 3.21
      Looks like it!

    198. Petra says:

      @ mac says at 11:38 pm ….”Anybody saw my fellow Glaswegian big Cactus about. Last seen on these pages until two nights ago when he was stuck in by two evil stuck up bastards on here. Evil Petra and evil Hamish 100, hang your heads in shame you two.”


      Anybody know this guy? Another BritNat newbie on here?

      Whatever the case it ain’t working Mac (k) the Knife. Aye right choose a Scottish name for a pseudonym on here and all will be well says you, Dafty.

      Hamish 100 and I are fervent supporters (and mean workers) of Independence. What say you? What are you doing for the Independence cause other than bumping your gums?

      And eh Mac the last thing that Cactus needs right now is someone like YOU supporting him. You ain’t doing him any favours. And of course at the end of the day you don’t actually give a sh*t for Cactus at all do you? You’re actually just using him to promote your BritNat divide and rule agenda on here Mr (or Mrs). Ain’t that the case?!

    199. mac says:

      Evil Petra strikes again!!!

    200. Breeks says:

      Is there anywhere I can anonymously volunteer to pay somebody’s Settled Status Fee? It’s £65 but I really don’t like how much it feels like our European Friends are having their pockets picked by the UK Government.

      How about we set up crowd fund a kitty to help towards paying everybody’s?

      I know it’s paying gold to the Empire, but the money grasping shites will take it from our friends anyway. It’s a solidarity thing. I’d rather they thieved from all of us rather than some of us.

    201. Dr Jim says:


      I don’t really believe I was agreeing with anything you said but if it gives you comfort in some way that I did then that’s lovely and we’re all happy

    202. Dr Jim says:

      When the poor or disabled get help with their lives every penny of the benefit they receive is spent straight back into the economy so the taxpayer really never loses anything but actually gains from saving our fellow man from destitution in the hope that those of us who are not in trouble would ourselves benefit from the same help should we ever need it

      When the rich and wealthy like for example Jacob Reese Mogg receive taxpayers money in remuneration form chaps like Jacob send their money to arranged destinations abroad in order not to be spent in the economy so are the real burden on the taxpayer, not the poor or disabled, yet it’s always the wealthy who pretend to the uninformed electorate that it’s everybody else and not them and they’re only trying to save us all from Foreign folk,people of colour,sick folk,disabled folk and the list goes on and on

      When the people begin to realise what the rich and wealthy are up to those people immediately change the rules and the agenda and frighten everybody with talk of invading bad foreigners who are out to get us or have a royal something take place to take the electorates attention away from the original complaint, until time passes and it goes away, then they do the same thing all over again

      It’s all worked very well for many years but the internets infinitely long memory has buggered them up so what to do they think to themselves, well the only option left to them is another rule change so they have Brexit which they hope will lead to modern day dictatorship by removing themselves from the rule of international law under which the comman man/woman could bring redress, the EU, but the EU saw that one coming and made it difficult for the good old UK of England to get away with that, so blame anger and recriminations will have to be heaped on somebody by the UK

      What’s the betting it’s us up here in our dear green place of Scotland because let’s face it they despise us but can’t afford to lose us because we’ve got what they need to flavour their gravy but they’re having trouble selling the notion that we’re poor now because they’ve had to admit we’re not, so crossing their fingers the UK will do what they always do, threaten promise threaten promise in the hope of exhausting Scotland into submission once again and you know what

      It’s not going to work this year

    203. Robert Peffers says:

      @mac says: 6 January, 2019 at 3:49 am:

      ” … Evil Petra strikes again!!!”

      There’s a scientific name for people like you, mac.

      For the life of me I just cannot remember what it is ATM:

      Ablins Ah micht speir CB aboot whit it micht be.

      Div Ah mibbies need til owerset yon intil the Inglis leid fir ye. Mac?

    204. Nana says:

      Say goodbye to tea and carrots

      Labour started it all
      1 It’s not a documentary. But to see how closely #Idanielblake matches reality, let’s have a look at some details from the UN report on poverty in the UK:

      Absolutely BOMBSHELL stuff in the latest #IntegrityInitiative document dump on #Skripal. @InitIntegrity has some SERIOUS questions to answer about their role in the ‘affair’.

    205. Nana says:

      The prime minister does have a strategy to prevent what she sees as the chaos of a no-deal Brexit.
      The flaw in it is that the strategy probably has a shelf life of just over one week.
      Read on

      NEW: Extraordinary Kent County Council No Deal Brexit document detailing “Operation Fennel” next month to hold 10,000 HGVs “on a routine basis”

    206. jockmcx says:

      How many lightbulbs does it take to change a scotsman?

      There are no excuses any more.


      Independant Scotland or tory slave.

    207. Nana says:

      This after it’s been rolled out in Scotland, another poll tax moment
      Threat of revolt forces rethink of ‘catastrophic’ universal credit

      Updated UK gov publication below – post-#Brexit regulation of medicines & medical devices means duplication of new drug applications. In cases where UK accepts EU certification it will no longer have any input into decisions.

      Show starts at noon

      This week, the Full Scottish is presented by Carol McNamara and she is joined by guests, Professor Alison Phipps, UNESCO Chair in Refugee Integration through Languages & Arts at Glasgow University and by Christopher McEleny, SNP Leader on Inverclyde Council.

    208. Ken500 says:

      Just join or donate to the SNP. They will do the necessary. Settled status fees will be paid retrospectively. Not up front but later. They will still be paid.

      Just join or donate or canvass or vote SNP/SNP

      Social care, more for the SNHS, MUP, uni fees, universal uni loans,support for education. £100Million+ funding a year mitigating the Westminster welfare cuts, projects improving the economy (amazing management) no bedroom tax,renewables, innovative research. A more, equal fair society. No support for Trident. Standing up for Scotland. Just join or donate or vote for the SNP. Continued membership of the EU or as near as possible, Independence for Scotland to finally remove the yoke. Of the unionist joke. Damaging the economy.

      Wasting public time and money. The unionists parties are utter incompetent, ignorant liars. They haven’t got a clue. Not charging politicans breaking the Law electoral rules. Parliamentary privilege. Cover up for them.

      Alex Salmond is one of the greatest Statemen in the world. The civil servants sworn loyalty to the illegal Westminster Gov and their unelected duplicity. The head civil service pen pusher. Swans about like a replicate FM trying to do one. On a bigger salary and unelected. There is one FM. There is no need for a second one. Trying to create a duplicate. They are supposed to be the servant of the people. Not the other way around. They certainly fancy their chances. Full of themselves.

      Alex Salmond will prevail. The Cops putting people in cells overnight on charges that can never come to court. They should sort themselves out. Appalling inefficiency They might get a weekend off. Cutting off their nose to spite their face. Building a criminal empire.

      Mundell trying to build an empire. A civil service expansion and Scootish Office fiasco wasting Scottish taxpayers money like there is no tomorrow. It is the unionist politicaian way. Parasites. Borrowing and spending like there is no tomorrow up to their eyes in debt. Wasting taxpayers money total incompetence. Losing members faster than a sieve loses water. The unionists parties united in a bankrupt state. Fleecing the public. The state of it.

      Let’s see the Tories brought down. Gie’s some peace. Sychophant lying bastards. Leopards never change their spots.

    209. Ken500 says:

      Amber Rudd has lied to Parliament. Responsible for the EU numbers game catastrophe. Lies and spin, A failed banker implicit with her criminal fathers financial – banking crimes. Javid is a failed banker. Now deporting people after the unionist politicans causing the crash and the illegal wars. They caused the mess. A total shambles.

    210. Golfnut says:


      Brilliant idea, I don’t know how much we would need to raise, but what a message to send to our EU citizens and the EU.

    211. Essexexile says:

      Good morning geeo.
      It’s a telltale sign that when you know your point has been disproven you get abusive. That’s always the moment when I sit back, light a cigar and know I’ve won that particular argument.
      Every time.
      As for Cubby, can anybody remember the last time he posted without saying ‘Britnat’? I’m way beyond taking anything he says seriously and now have genuine concerns for his welfare. We have a duty of care for our fellow Wingers I believe.
      Last from me, busy with family for the foreseeable.

    212. Ghillie says:

      Well, thank goodness for that at least.

    213. Ian Mackay says:

      According to the Scottish Government, 223 000 EU citizens that stay in Scotland will be affected by the £65 Westminster charge.

      Westminster has blocked the Scottish Government’s attempt to pay the Settled Status fee for Scotland’s EU citizens stating they would not allow third party payments.

      If Westminster aren’t allowing third party payments any crowdfunder would need to be creative and properly managed so as to somehow give the £65 needed first to the Scottish EU citizen applying for Settled Status so it can then be paid by them directly.

      223 000 x £65 = £14 495 000

      Including management of that you would probably be thinking of £15 million pounds needed in total.

      That is a huge amount of money for a crowdfunder to collect.

    214. Ken500 says:

      They are going to get the £65 retrospectively not up front. They are still going to get it. They are getting other help through the taxation system. Paying less tax pro rata. For higher remuneration.

    215. galamcennalath says:

      Nana says

      The guy at the centre of this scandal was a senior office bearer in the ‘Scottish’ Conservatives and stood as a WM candidate.

      This, and other revelations, show the ‘calibre’ of those at the core of the Tory party, particularly in Scotland perhaps even. The word dodgy doesn’t even come close. That party is clearly rotten at its core.

      What gets to me most about this is most Tory voters I know seem completely unaware, or are blinkered, to the reality. I put a lot down to nostalgia – most older Tory voters think of the one nation party of their youth. Some do hold right wing views I disagree with and that makes them silly Thatcher worshippers. However, the individuals I know aren’t actually typical of the thugs, deviants, bigots, and spivs at the heart of the modern Conservative party.

      I genuinely believe a lot of ordinary Tory voters would be turned off if only the msm didn’t continue to protect the dodgy elements.

    216. geeo says:

      You won nothing, as you have no coherent argument, so do what all clueless muppets do, you try hide behind an old saying which has no basis in reality.

      If i present an argument for Scottish independence, but swear a lot and call my opponents arsehats etc, have i ‘lost’ the argument compared to making the EXACT SAME points without swearing ?

      Of course not, the underlying message is correct, so how it is delivered, ie: politely or aggressively, is absolutely irrelevent.

      Saying someone lost the argument because they swore is an utter cop out by people who know they are talking mince and are looking for an escape route.

      Still waiting on you to answer the simple question which destroyed your entire steaming pile of keech.

      Do you consider the American Pledge of Allegience to be equatable to Hitler/Stalin and Saddam-esque totalitarianism/despotic histories ?

      A simple Yes or No will do.

      4th time of asking now.

      The reason you will not answer is because you know you are talking utter sh**e about what i posted about a Scottish style pledge of allegiance post indy, a practice which is almost universal in every country on earth.

      C’mon missile, Yes or No to the question you keep dodging.

      Then you can feck off and give us peace for as long as you like.

    217. geeo says:

      10.02 post aimed at essexmissile (intentional spelling).

    218. Terence callachan says:

      I think there is still every likelihood that the Labour Party to be in the news a lot more than usual this next ten days because there will now be a concerted effort to stop Brexit and that can only come from the Labour Party.
      Corbyn continues to support Brexit but I’m pretty sure someone will try and depose him or make him an offer he can’t refuse , to change his stance .
      If Brexit goes ahead I reckon Scottish independence will come closer.
      The wingsoverscotland site will be a place to behold if independence becomes a certainty.
      Roll on ….
      Westminster and the House of Lords will start to shrink as will their global influence

    219. Terence callachan says:

      I think there is still every likelihood that the Labour Party will be in the news a lot more than usual this next ten days because there will now be a concerted effort to stop Brexit and that can only come from the Labour Party.
      Corbyn continues to support Brexit but I’m pretty sure someone will try and depose him or make him an offer he can’t refuse , to change his stance .
      If Brexit goes ahead I reckon Scottish independence will come closer.
      The wingsoverscotland site will be a place to behold if independence becomes a certainty.
      Roll on ….
      Westminster and the House of Lords will start to shrink as will their global influence

    220. orri says:

      I’d rather the Holyrood oaths stay as they are given they commit people to represent the people even if via their elected head.

      Perhaps making that clear might be an improvement.

      Regardless of how I personally feel about independence a requirement to continue it is just as bad as the Westminster Oath is to non Scots or a religious oath to those with no belief in its words.

      As the 800th anniversary of the Declaration of Arbroath approaches remember who a Scot is really pledging to when swearing to their monarch. Remember why some of our Kings objected to the T&Cs of being King of Scots some preferring England where the Divine Right was a thing. Also why our Unicorn has a collar and chain.

      The proper path for elected representatives is to all of those that elected them. Anything else just plays into Parliamentary Sovereignty and so of till next time we need you to elect us attitude.

    221. geeo says:

      There is ZERO evidence Labour want to stop brexit.

      Scots politicians have laid the means out on a plate for them yet they have totally ignored it.

      Too scared of around 15 million English voters reactions.

    222. Ken500 says:

      The Condems elected to protect the NHS and Education. Cut them both. The Tories cut NHS £4Billion a year and Education £6Billion a year from 2015 to 2020 Welfare cut £3Billion a year for 6 years. £18Billion. The Tories are total liars. The £20Billion is only replacing the money that was cut. They are malicious liars and cannot be trusted. Lie after lie, after lie. A bunch of dangerous amateurs. A conning PR campaign. They are a bunch of useless, ignorant incompetents. Killing off people. Killing off their own voters. Tory psycho bastards.

    223. Maria F says:

      Ian Mackay:
      6 January, 2019 at 9:51 am

      “223 000 x £65 = £14 495 000”

      And the fleecing of the people of Scotland to subsidise the south continues.

      Because, where exactly do all those millions that the EU citizens living in Scotland are expected to pay go? To some UKgov account down south, of course, because I doubt the EU citizens will be allowed to pay that money here in Scotland so the money is recycled here where those EU citizens live.

      Where are all the Home Office jobs of the people who will be processing all those applications for EU citizens living in Scotland? Down south of course, or are there some grand plans to open offices up here in Scotland generating jobs here in Scotland to process the forms of the EU citizens living here? If there were such plans, the offices would be up and running by now.

      So here we have it, another nice excuse for the Westminster cabal to siphon yet more money from Scotland and to add more wealth to England at the expense of Scotland in the form of more jobs to serve the needs of Scotland and the indirect revenue those jobs generate. Jobs that should be here to serve the people living here so the salaries for those jobs and the taxes from those jobs are recycled in Scotland’s economy rather than taken down south.

      In this case the total payment by the EU citizens is more than enough to cover for the fiasco of Grayling and the investment in that company with the virtual ferries. Quite convenient, isn’t it?

      Over 100 million were “invested” by this UKgov in “ferry companies” to operate in England. What was the share that Scotland paid in that “investment” for ferries in England? How much of the profit and revenues generated by such investment in England is coming back to Scotland? So, is the UKgov going to invest the equivalent amount here in Scotland, or this is one of the instances when the UKgov chooses that the Barnett formula does not apply?

      And then they claim Scotland is poor. They make it poor by investing all the money and centralising all the jobs down south.

      The thing of the ferries is ridiculous. Scotland has a bigger coastline than England and we have much less ports. Why? Wouldn’t it make much more sense to upgrade Scotland’s ports or generated new ones to avoid the customs backlog that, allegedly, will be created in England after brexit? Wouldn’t this be a fantastic opportunity to develop Scotland’s and Wales’ ports?

      But lets face it, if this UK-USA trade deal, that allegedly will be a paradise of free trade and suddenly USA laws and regulations will be okay here too according to Dan Hannah, then of course there will not be need for customs checks at all, there will not be backlog and there will not be a need for extra capacity in ports and ferries in England to receive products from the EU because those products will be coming from USA. So, is the investment in all those “ferry companies” another tory scam to deflect attention from their real intentions? Or is just a nice excuse to give some tory donors a bribe in expectation of support in the next GE?

    224. Colin Alexander says:

      The latest story from the Herald: about anti-semitism across Europe.

      Nothing to do with the SNP but, a big SNP poster of Nicola Sturgeon with a swastika added on, possibly photoshopped onto it, is put with the story. I’m not some Britnat or 77th Brigade or Integrity Initiative, but if I were, I’d be very chuffed at an excellent piece of smear propaganda by use of that SNP picture on that story.

      1. It links the SNP with anti-semitism. Now, as people here know, I’m not slow to criticise the SNP’s many faults and failures but, I can honestly say, I’ve NEVER heard or seen a single instance of anti-semitism from any SNP activist or political professional.

      2. The photo of Nicola Sturgeon, reminds us pro-independence supporters how absolute garbage the SNP 2017 GE campaign was. They were lucky they never lost ALL their MP seats and should have lost their leader for that shambles.

      The words speak for themselves:

      Nicola Sturgeon: “My vow is to make Scotland Stronger at Westminster”. I suppose that happened in a weird way. The SNP lost half their seats to the Tories, so Tory MPs in Scottish seats kept the Tories in Govt.

      Or has she abandoned that vow? Just like she and the SNP abandoned: All four countries of the UK’s vote must be respected; they must all agree for Brexit to happen. Scotland’s vote to Remain must be respected.

      If there is No-Deal Brexit, I’m certain the deluded ones will trumpet that the FM’s master plan worked, it was all to prove a point about the futility of WM politics.

      Mince. The truth would be: the FM went down the WM route as she vowed to do. She was sucked in as Labour was, into belief in the British Establishment and the Westminster way of politics. If there’s No Deal Brexit, her attempts to play WM politics and by doing so, keep Scotland in the EU, have been a total failure and three years wasted.

      I only hope the lessons have been learned but doubt it.

    225. Breeks says:

      Ian Mackay says:
      6 January, 2019 at 9:51 am
      According to the Scottish Government, 223 000 EU citizens that stay in Scotland will be affected by the £65 Westminster charge.

      Westminster has blocked the Scottish Government’s attempt to pay the Settled Status fee for Scotland’s EU citizens stating they would not allow third party payments.

      I would like to tell Westminster to go and ram it, since I can give my money to whoever the fk I like, and if we can’t pay all of it, we can surely pay some of it. If we can’t pay the lot, then we can pay a share, or better yet have a hardship fund to help those in greatest need.

      But what I’d really like to do is tell every EU citizen living here that in addition to our respect for Freedom of Movement, my Country does not endorse or condone their segregation from the rest of us, their cruel and unnecessary exploitation, and the financial extortion suffered upon them by the despicable UK regime. Scotland elected to uphold the European Principle of Free Movement. What Westminster is proposing is unlawful.

      It’s not a case of them joining us, or us joining them. That “them and us” narrative is the poisoned pill the British propagandists are trying to embed in your psyche, while also telling you what to think. What they fear is the powerful phenomenon of United European Citizens standing firm together.

      The SNP Government can of course say or do what it pleases, and do what it’s told by Westminster if it think’s that’s probably best. That will be the shy and retiring SNP Government which increasingly doesn’t speak for me anyway. Perhaps we Scots need to articulate ourselves through a different vessel, one that actually respects our sovereign principle and has the courage to act, in order to affect our Constitutionally Sovereign rejection of Brexit in the 82 days we have left.

    226. Ken500 says:

      Carlaw now lying about people of faith. Trying to make political capital out of stuff and nonsense. The Tory con. Beyond useless. No one will fall for it. Down and down they go.

    227. orri says:

      Think the powers that be missed a trick by not allowing Holyrood/SNP to pay the £65 and then spring electoral law in them afterwards.

      The game would be to show that by paying a financial incentive to stay, arguably, they hoped those benefiting would subsequently vote AND in any future election they were entitled to.

      The remedy would be a crippling fine on the SNP. Potentially criminal charges for misappropriated public monies. Not forgetting an outright ban on all and any EU citizen influenced either directly or not by said generosity from any future vote.

      Keep in mind that if you’ve chosen to exercise your right to an Irish Passport and retain your EU citizenship then that ban might “inadvertently” apply to you. Even more galling if you were forced to stump up £65 for the formality of staying in a country you were born and raised in.

    228. Maria F says:

      Breeks says:
      6 January, 2019 at 10:52 am

      “I would like to tell Westminster to go and ram it, since I can give my money to whoever the fk I like”

      Well, I think a better strategy would be that of DEMANDING Westminster to ram it by DEMANDING from Westminster our fair share in EVERY single investment they do in England. How do we do this? But making noise, lots of noise and complain and complaint some more for example throughout each and every one of their mouthpieces and rags and “blow” their comment sections every time.

      Their “investment” in the ghost ferries is an example. But not the only one. The disproportion between the money that will be given to England and the money given to Scotland and Wales from that 2 bn brexit grant is another example. The centralisation of jobs in England, particularly the Home office jobs is another example.

      A case should be built not only in moral and social grounds, but also in economic grounds as to why exactly Scotland should be in control of its own immigration and then make it public. For instance, why on earth should Scotland just give away to England 14 million pounds in the form of permanent residence cards for Scotland’s own EU citizens? Why on earth should England profit from Scotland’s EU citizens? Why on earth should be England workers who process Scotland’s EU citizens applications and earn jobs for that instead of people living in Scotland and recycling their money in Scotland? And by extension, the exact same applies to every no EU, non UK citizen living in Scotland. Why should England profit from Scotland’s immigrants?

      We should put together some figures as to how much exactly England is siphoning from Scotland thanks to Scotland’s immigration activities. I am sure it is not insignificant. Becoming a UK citizen is, well over £1000. Well, that is another earner for England’s Home Office because your payments go there, they do not remain in Scotland and the processing of your application is done down south not here.

      The whole think the UKgov is doing now with brexit stinks. They are pouncing on EU citizens because they do not intend to have any deal with the EU at all. By the look of it these crooks have been planning for long and hard this deal with the USA, which by the way, listening to Dan Hannah, advocates for free movement between UK and USA. People wondered for the last two years why nothing was happening with regards to provisions about ports, about customs checks etc, etc. Perhaps the reason is because they never intended/they knew that big checks were not going to take place with that deal. The only thing that would change is the origin of the products. We thought the EU citizens were being used as pawns in this game, and I am sure they are, but the bigger stick the UK is using to hit the EU with is that USA-UK deal, hence their arrogance and apparent lack of fear.

      “That will be the shy and retiring SNP Government which increasingly doesn’t speak for me anyway”

      May I kindly and politely ask what political party actually speaks for you in the current situation? Tories bulldozing our devolution settlement and stealing our powers and wealth? Labour talking about a post neoliberal utopia while they are wedging the back door wide open for a giant wave of neoliberalism on steroids? or the LibDems that put the tories in a position to offer that EU ref, opening the door for such a disadvantageous deal with USA and to pass the Health and Social Care Act 2012 opening the door to privatisation of our NHS?

      Please do not interpret my question as if I am attacking you. I am not. You are fully entitled to your own opinion and political preferences like everybody else. I am just interested in your views. I am interested in understanding and appreciating what sort of realistic and credible political alternative to the SNP is there in the current chaos, as to be frank, I see none.

      Thank you.

    229. Legerwood says:

      Re The Scottish Government being blocked from paying the £65 fee for EU citizens.

      The reason given for this block was that ‘third party’payment of the charge was banned.

      Yet at the time this was announced there were numerous posts on Facebook from people from the EU working in NHS England saying the Trusts they worked for had sent them emails saying they, the Trusts, would pay the charge for them.

      So what is going on? Are NHS Trusts in NHS England not considered ‘third party’ payers?

      Other employers of EU nationals have also said they would pay the charge for their EU employees and nothing has been said by UK Gov.

    230. geeo says:

      Coco on full British Nationalist, anti SNP/Scotland, hate mode.

      Tomorrow, when he sobers up, will be back to being pretendy pro indy.

      What an absolute wally.

    231. orri says:

      NHS trusts in England are not run by a government headed by a party that has already allowed those faced with expulsion a vote in an independence referendum and might be of a mind to do so again where voting in favour would make their remaining in Scotland more secure.

      That’s the essential problem. It may very well be classed as treating, a form of electoral bribe. Both to bar them from voting and paint the SNP as underhand rather than acting in the national interest by reducing the potential loss of Scotland’s NHE staff.

      It’d be interesting to see statistics on which EU nationals are allowed to stay and see if there’s a bias against those in Scotland in general and working for our NHS in particular.

    232. Dr Jim says:

      English NHS to be as good as Scottish NHS in ten years

      They said that this morning while managing to avoid saying the actual word “Scotland”

      Today Nicola Sturgeon and all of us in the SNP are anti semitic say the same people who have been smearing Labour with the same thing yet it’s the Tories who set up internment camps to detain people indefinitely without charge and even deport them under cover of night to places they’ve never even been to and these same people never seem to accuse them of anything like that

      It’s amazing how in a short space of time you can go from Tartan Tories to lefty Blood and soil Nationalists to immigrant Muslim lovers to ultras and all the names in between but nobody ever reports the people who say these things as *Anti SNP* because they’re beyond reproach *impartial journalists* for respectable publications like the Daily Mail the Scotsman the Herald the Telegraph

      You’ll notice all newspapers in Scotland that more are given away than actually sold to anybody and one of them the Scotsman is actually bust

    233. Breeks says:

      orri says:
      6 January, 2019 at 12:17 pm

      It’d be interesting to see statistics on which EU nationals are allowed to stay and see if there’s a bias against those in Scotland in general and working for our NHS in particular.

      No it won’t. I’m sorry Orri, I still have faith the Sovereign Nation of Scotland will stand up for itself and it’s European Citizenship BEFORE we know which EU Nationals are allowed to stay. We fight for all of them, we fight to win, and all of them will still have a home in Scotland when we do win.

      Can we have a poll please?

      How many Independence Supporters are gearing up to win this fight in less than 82 days before Brexit happens, and how many of us are are already reconciled to defeat over Brexit so long as they can glean some self righteous moral irrelevance from the ashes of a brave but forlorn defeat?

    234. K1 says:

      If there and I say ‘if’ cause very unlikely, where to be another GE who would Labour voters in Scotland vote for given that many are Remain in EU voters?

    235. Hamish100 says:

      Colin Alexander– please count yirsel.
      At Westminster, Scotland is represented by 35 MPs from the Scottish National Party,
      7 MPs from the Labour Party,
      13 from the Conservative Party and 4 from the Liberal Democrats.

      The SNP is the dominant party in Scotland. The First Minister is still Nicola Sturgeon and the polls are showing extra seats will head the SNP way.

      Labour and tories support Brexit that will harm Scotland and will pay the price at the polls and at the next independence referendum.

    236. K1 says:

      In essence how could a Labour voter vote Tory in any GE going forward? Irrespective of SNP bad campaign this time?

    237. Golfnut says:

      @ Breeks & Ian MacKay.

      Nothing to stop the crowd funding going viral, particularly amongst the other 27 EU Countries, perhaps even world wide.
      What a message that would send, the difference between the people of Scotland and a xenophobic and corrupt Westminster for all to see.

    238. galamcennalath says:

      Picked up via WoS twitter …

      A very fair and well laid out appraisal. I would suggest anyone reads it.

      It draws attention to the essential point about where we are. It is the Withdrawal Agreement all the current hooha is about. We really know absolutely nothing about the future relationship other than NI must stay in customs union and the option is open for the rest of the UK to stay within as well.

      This is a blindfold Brexit.

      That option for the rest of the UK to stay in customs union is however available and would result is a middling (not too hard or soft) final deal. Too hard for Scotland IMO.

      The alternative really does look like crash and burn Brexit, or as May pointedly referred to it on Marr as a clean break Brexit.

      Nicola, can you beam us up now?

    239. wull2 says:

      He has to be sober tomorrow, he has School.

    240. Graeme says:

      Priti Patel
      “without a confident Britain, rooted in history & philosophy, we cannot lead. Patriotism, pride in our past & future, should be the clarion call of 2019 & beyond.” ?Absolutely right.


      All I can say is thank god good old Britannia is going to take back her place in the world and lead the way, we haven’t had a decent world war for 73 years what

    241. INDEPENDENT says:

      Ref Stu’s heads up to Spinning Hugo

      My Response to BTL comments

      Usual Britnat scaremongering.

      (1) What deficit?? Scotland would no longer be paying for the UK empire based ego trips, i. e. 2 Aircraft (sitting duck) Flag Waving Carriers with no Airplanes. Trident renewal anyone???
      Our defence budget reduction alone would wipe our your claimed deficit. Then add in the fact that Scotland exports are 3 x per head more than the rest of the UK and that that revenue would go direct to the Scottish Treasury and not be counted as English exports as at present because of the point of exit. The biggest commercial revenue export earner for Heathrow Airport is Smoked Scottish Salmon. Very valuable / light in weight and could just as easily be exported from Prestwick, The Chinese and our many other markets won’t care where it is flown from. Similarly Scotch Whisky and now Gin will also be classed as solely Scottish Exports to the markets. Add in Electricity via the Grid connection South, which Scotland has also been a net exporter since it was set up.

      (2) All the other countries that have achieved Independence in the last 200 years have managed to set up and manage their own currencies whether pegged, linked or just floated. So why do you think Scotland would be the only one incapable of doing this.
      P.S. Being tied to the G B Pound might not be the best thing after No Deal Brexit, if as expected it collapses on the trading exchanges!

      (3) I’m sure the RUK will, with the help of Scottish goodwill and combined expertise, be able to come up with a solution similar to the Norway / Sweden Border. With all the High Tech as was quoted by the current government as being eezy-peezy ref the Northern Ireland border. Also ref our biggest market, Scotland with its small population is far more self sufficient than the RUK and exports considerable foodstuffs in surplus to what we receive over the same border.

      (4) Your argument appears to be stuck in 2014 (55%).
      The Euro Referendum showed we canny Scots, new what folly it would be to leave the EU 62% Remain.
      The largest margin in the UK. (Along with the clever guys in the City).
      After the last shambolic 2 years of unbelievable in fighting and I’ll be alright-jackery, emanating from the off shore Tax evaders and the House of Comics at Westminster.
      The numbers for an Independent Scotland staying in the EU are much higher than reported.

      What is also unreported by the British Press, is that all the (illegal) undisclosed off shore accounts are about to be laid bare by the new EU legislation passed, despite an attempted UK objection, due to commence in April 2019.

      Methinks this was the real reason for the Brexit referendum!!!!!!!!!
      Hence all the PANIC IN THE Real establishment?

    242. Republicofscotland says:

      Interesting article here on HES, in which the owner claims the British government did all it could to undermine the company whose headquarters are in Scotland.

      Whilst giving HES’s competitors an unfair advantage.

      He claims his competitors were allowed to use unlicenced vehicles, some possibly used in the delivery of food stuffs, and allowed to burn human waste at municipal sites, again very unusual.

    243. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Someone help me out here…

      Has any unionist party in Scotland stated, at any time, that they intend to puruse reunification when Scotland does become independent?

      Sorry if there’s a glaringly obvious reason why they wouldn’t but I can’t see it, or recall it being aired by anyone. If they’re that serious about their ‘precious union’, why haven’t they sought to reassure the unionist constituency?

    244. Ian Brotherhood says:

      ‘pursue’, obvs…


    245. mac says:

      Evil Ken500 was another one of the stuck up bastards who went greetin’ to the Rev about my big Glasgow buddy Cactus.

      Hang your head in shame evil Ken 500.

      I would have rather read the ramblings of big Cactus than the meaningless shite that Ken500 posts on these pages.

      Evil Ken is a grass.

    246. frogesque says:


      Flashmob being planned to support Scottish Parly.

      Thursday 17th January. 11.00 am to 3.00 pm.

      People, flags, shields, kilts, noise and dogs etc all welcome. Time to kick the year off and show support for our Parliament at Holyrood.

    247. Gary45% says:

      Define “A grass”. I never thought I would see that comment on WoS.
      I am taking NO SIDES. I thought we all sang from the same hymn sheet on here.

    248. Lochside says:

      Ian Blackford, SNP Westminster Leader: ‘Ultimately, if we are to protect the economic interests of the people of Scotland, we are going to have to have a CONVERSATION (my capitals) as to the attractions of Independence’

      Really Ian??…how many f*cking conversations do we need?…how about action and leadership? It would easy to believe that the SNP are nothing but a bunch of time serving frauds when you look at the completely wrong trajectory they have followed since 2015.

      We had all the MPs bar two and 50% of the vote. Yet no attempt to dissolve the Union was made. What followed was ‘managerial’ political assimiliation into the shitepot called Westminster. Like all the ‘Red Clydeside’ Mps of the past they became patsys to be patronised an finally ignored by their betters in the HOC.
      One walkout, a singsong with AS, and a ‘keepie uppie’ routine…yeah very powerful and meaningful!

      Since then, half a million votes lost like snow off a dyke. Unregenerate vicious tory bastards elected and led by an ex BBC announcer fraudulently protected by a corrupt media. And one retreat after another from the real argument of the theft of our sovereign status in remaining in the EU.

      The pathetic assertions of protection for EU citizens and others trampled on daily. The increasing corpulent ‘shadow’ government being surreptitiously created under the Mundell degenerate.

      How much more are we expected to take? The usual suspects will tell me to speak to my branch or form my own party blah blah blah. But that is bullshit. I have voted for the SNP my whole adult life and joined it in 2014 like a 100,000 others with the full expectation that we would be fighting for one thing: INDEPENDENCE. Now on the cusp of catastrophe all we’re getting is an ex merchant banker feebly bleating about a people’s vote within the timeframe left. The article linked by the REV on twitter demonstrates that is an illusion…a goddam lie.

      Why should we accept this from the only party that has told us for decades that it one aim was to re-establish our freedom?

    249. Breeks says:

      INDEPENDENT says:
      6 January, 2019 at 1:58 pm
      Ref Stu’s heads up to Spinning Hugo

      I’m not sure who Spinning Hugo actually is, Hugo Rifkind maybe, but the gist of what he is saying is that time has run out for a Remain option. Even assuming there was a will to pull such levers, which there isn’t, the irony of Gina Millar winning the case compelling the Government to respect the will of Parliament now means the Remain option, that is revoking Article 50 would require the same respect for Parliament and require legislation approved through the Commons – a process there is insufficient time or will to complete. Hence the conclusion Remain is dead.

      An extension of Article 50 might be possible, if the planets somehow align, which they won’t, but even if they did, extension is merely a stay of execution until May, because there is the added complication of European Elections. It’s not inconceivable the process of securing an extension would take longer than the extension itself. Hence the conclusion than an Article 50 extension is not really the stay of execution it appears.

      There is a potential for a General Election to change everything, but not really… the monkey and organ grinder might exchange hats, but the organ itself is bound to play the same tune regardless of who cranks the wheel, and neither of the options above are altered either.

      So the conclusion runs we should brace ourselves for a Cliff Edge No Deal Brexit, or Theresa May’s Deal, which hasn’t a chance of getting through Parliament: Cannons to the right of them, loose Cannons to the far right of them, into the valley of death rides Theresa May’s Great misadventure.

      Soooo… if that’s all correct, then Scotland faces the stark choice of a No Deal Cliff Edge Brexit, or a timely, let me stress TIMELY, Constitutional Checkmate Masterstroke which allows Scotland to redefine how Article 50 can be revoked unilaterally and against the will of Westminster, whether that’s the whole Article 50 Notification discredited as ultra vires and unlawful, or disputed insofar as Article 50 runs contrary to the sovereign will of the Scottish people and is unconstitutional … which largely amounts to the same thing.

      The implication which I draw from Spinning Hugo is that Brexit has it’s clear trajectory, Westminster has crossed the Rubicon, it’s too late for Theresa May of Westminster to turn back and save itself, and Nicola too loses her capacity to stall for time while haunted by the winds of uncertainty.

      So it’s a No Deal Brexit, or we have 82 days for Scotland’s timely Constitutional Checkmate Masterstroke…

      So let’s get a wee Court Case fired off to the ECJ, dig out the Saltires and bunting, stick Peters and Lee on the old gramophone, and get yourselves ready to Welcome back Home our long absent friend, our Sovereignty.

      Altogether now…

      I’m so alone, my Sovereignty without you
      You’re part of everything I do
      When you come back, and you’re beside me
      These are the words I’ll say to you…

      Welcome home, welcome
      Come on in, and close the door
      You’ve been gone, too long
      Welcome, you’re home once more.

      I thought of all the things I’d say to you
      When you come back to me someday
      When you are here and we’re together
      With all my heart you’ll hear me say…

      Welcome home, Freeeeedom… You’re home once more.

    250. Dan Huil says:

      I hope Mr Blackford is being deliberately coy because he and the SNP don’t want to give May’s supporters a chance to use the no-deal-will-mean-Scotland-will-push-for-indyref2-and- put-our-precious-union-in-danger card.

      However the britnats cock things up in the coming weeks now is absolutely the time for radical action from the SNP and all pro-indy supporters.

    251. Dave McEwan Hill says:


      Why am I watching live middle grade English football on BBC Scotland at the moment?

    252. Cubby says:

      Colin Alexander @10.43am

      “I’m not some Britnat…….” oh yes you are Coco.

      Colin Alexander known as the Britnat coco the clown provides the best laugh of the day.

    253. Albert Herring says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill


      Why am I watching live middle grade English football on BBC Scotland at the moment all?

    254. Cubby says:

      Dave McEwan Hill 4.46pm

      That’s an easy question to answer. You are watching English television that calls itself BBC.

    255. cearc says:

      Try switching it off and never switching it back on again. That should help.

    256. geeo says:


      Good post as ever, and who is to say that is not the Scotsgov plan ?

      Not like they are going to show such a devastating hand before the can is unable to be kicked further.

      Always said that things will move quickly, and have said for a while that an immediate indyref is not the prime option being sought.

      Thats not to say no indyref, as it is required to satisfy the People’s Sovereignty issue.

      Treeza will have her deal voted down next week, present some minor vague ‘give’ from the EU, which the EU will deny, then send it back for another vote in WM to be this or a cliff edge brexit.

      That is when we will make our move, probably.

    257. Cubby says:

      Terence Callachan @10.10 and 10.11am

      1. Posting your Britnat crap twice does not mean anyone will be taken in by your phoney independence supporting.

      2. Still waiting for you to tell me where and when I threatened you as you claimed. Just another Britnat liar Terry old boy.

    258. crazycat says:

      @ Breeks at 4.41

      Around 5 years ago when I frequented CiF on The Guardian website, Spinnning Hugo was a regular commenter.

      It is presumably the same person, because his avatar there is/was the Mondrian-esque image that is also on the blog.

      I have a vague memory that he once explained the user-name – it might have been a fictional character, but unfortunately I can’t remember and it doesn’t come up in the searches I have done. What does come up is that there is “no further information” in his Guardian user profile.

      I don’t read CiF these days – or any other Guardian comments – so I don’t know if he’s changed, but he certainly wasn’t on our side back in the day.

    259. Cubby says:

      Essexexile @9.22am

      “Last from me, busy with family for the foreseeable.”

      Always glad to see the back of a PHONEY independence supporting BRITNAT on Wings. Bye bye and don’t hurry back.

    260. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Re my post at 4.46 just to add insult to injury we have Kaye “Fanny” Adams on the Chase on STV a the moment.

    261. Lochside says:

      Breeks…’Constitutional Checkmate Masterstroke which allows Scotland to redefine how Article 50 can be revoked unilaterally and against the will of Westminster, whether that’s the whole Article 50 Notification discredited as ultra vires and unlawful, or disputed insofar as Article 50 runs contrary to the sovereign will of the Scottish people and is unconstitutional … which largely amounts to the same thing.’

      And how is she going to do that Breeks in the time frame? Remember, She leads the party , but Blackford is the Parliamentary Leader. He alone has the legitimacy to legally challenge Article 50 in Westminster. And unless there is some wonderful Hollywood (not Holyrood) grandstand flourish by Mr ‘B’ evaporating the whole squalid might of Westminster’s wholly controlled ‘unwritten’ constitution backed up by its puppet Supreme Court…THEN HOW?

      I hope you and all the true believers are right. I remember the same blind faith at the REF and how the SNP would wipe out the BBC lies…it never happened. We were cheated by Breach of Purdah and the whole shitstorm of Project Fear. Nothing has changed.

    262. shug says:

      I see the Herald is running a picture of Nicola on a poster with a swastika on it and a neighboring headline that Jews and planning to leave Scotland.

      I am sure the alignment of all these symbols and words is a coincidence and not the work of the Integrity Initiative

      Who has Paul Hutcheon been lunching with these days??

      They have marked it an exclusive – aye nobody else was daft enough to run it.

      When Indy comes I guess PH will be facing a court of inquiry

    263. Thepnr says:


      You’ve pushed the sovereignty issue for years and as interesting and educational as it is don’t you think that such as Alex Salmond many others from way before his time also at least considered this as one possible means to Independence?

      If anyone did then they obviously chose not to attempt it and decided that Independence was best achieved by going down the referendum route where the sovereign people actually tell you what they want before you impose something on them without asking.

      Anyhow that’s by the by, but since the ECJ ruled that the UK could unilaterally revoke Article 50 you’ve convinced yourself and attempted to convince everyone else reading Wings that Scotland can do this themselves. Not only can they do that but they do it in less than 82 days.

      Wishful thinking writ large there it seems to me, I find it amusing that you read one article by “Spinning Hugo” and conclude that because there no time left Remain is not an option and the alternative is the cliff edge unless Scotland unilaterally revokes Article 50.

      The bad news is Scotland cannot revoke anything that it did not invoke in the first place. Scotland is not a member state of the EU. Article 50 applies to the leaving of the member state, yes the UK.

      You know as well as I do that absolutely NOTHING will come of your fantasy for Scotland to unilaterally do something it cannot possibly do like revoke Article 50.

      What then? I guess you’ll still blame the SNP who have brought us closer to gaining Independence that has ever been the case in 312 years. You think it should have been easier or that in the last 10 years the SNP “really, really, really should have done better”?

      My feet will stay firmly on the ground, we will win Independence despite the Unionists media against us only when we get off our arses and offer people the REAL alternative visions and persuade them that Scotland will better serve the whole population as an Independent country.

      In my opinion then, there are no shortcuts as desirable as they might appear to be. Hard work and patience though will win.

    264. galamcennalath says:

      May thinks she can bring her legislation several times to WM until it passes.

      “Parliamentary rules will prevent Theresa May bulldozing her Brexit deal through by staging multiple repeat votes until the Commons surrenders …. if Ms May tries to evade the rules by changing a few words of the motion put before MPs, it would be ruled out of order if it is “the same, in substance, as a question that has been decided”, the rules say. “

      Looks like Theresa will get one chance and one chance only!

    265. Simon Curran says:

      Shut says @5.20
      All very reminiscent of the Scotland on Sunday cover from five or six years ago when they superimposed a Swastika on the saltire. It’s no coincidence that they choose that picture. That was certainly an eye opener for me and have never bought a copy since. Hopefully this will backfire and add to the Heralds declining sales.

    266. Cubby says:

      Shug@5.20 pm

      There is no depth too low for the foreign controlled media in Scotland to plunge down to. Integrity morals they have none. All standards go out the window to save their precious precious Union. A bunch of gollums from Lord of the Rings. Hutcheon – the little weasel.

      Rename Glasgow airport Connolly airport – aye right – big banana feets cup already overflows with the cringe and British empire honours.

    267. Thepnr says:

      You would never be able to tell whether those who’s attitudes towards Independence and by definition the SNP are the greater or lesser positive at any point in time just by reading the posts on Wings btl.

      I always think there are far more negative posts especially about the SNP, Nicola Surgeon and their tactics or even governance than there are positives.

      I also can’t understand those that even without saying it, imply “see if the SNP don’t get this done by next week then I’ve had enough and they’ll no be getting meh vote.

      Hahaha, I really can’t understand such attitudes. There can be no other description for such people other than losers.

      The type that won’t get up off the canvas after a knockdown, leaving it to the coach to throw the towel in the ring or to be counted OUT. Why get in the ring in the first place if you weren’t prepared for a battle? You’d think that they might have never heard of the spider trying again.

      I’ll be sticking in there for the long haul and well past Brexit if that’s what it takes, I can say that much. See any poster when you can’t really stick it any more, can you please let us know just the once and then feel free to fuck off.

      Do your own thing by all means but if you have given up then stop wasting our time telling us why as I really wouldn’t care.

      So please keep your negativity to yourself, rather than continue moaning on Wings and depressing those that intend to fight on for Scotland’s Independence no matter the obstacles put in the way, nor the setbacks. That’s what someone who truly wanted Independence would do, as always IMO.

    268. Ken500 says:

      Liar Hutcheon has obviously been lunching with liar Carlaw. The article and photo should be reported to the Police for threatening behaviour and misogyny, Ot alternatively just viewed to show the complete ignorance and arrogance of the lying Tories and the sychophant Press. They are complete ignorant, arrogance and liars. Most of them should be in jail. No wonder the Press is struggling and going bankrupt. Just wait till Brexit. They will all be out of a job.

    269. Liz g says:

      Thepnr @ 6.10
      We’ll said…. Count me in too.

    270. Ken500 says:

      Why don’t they just let Connolly reside in peace in New Yok. Instead of hassling people pass their best. Deteriorating.

      Film ‘Mary Queen of Scots’. She would have spoken with a French accent. She spent her upbringing in France betrothed to the Dauphin. Until he died. 19? She spent years in
      London in the Tower but did not speak cockney. Unlikely. Hollywood fantasies.

    271. Proud Cybernat says:

      “So please keep your negativity to yourself, rather than continue moaning on Wings and depressing those that intend to fight on for Scotland’s Independence no matter the obstacles put in the way, nor the setbacks. That’s what someone who truly wanted Independence would do, as always IMO.”

      ‘kin well said, Thepnr. Losers get lost and leave the rest of us to do the hard lifting. The Indy movement doesn’t need your constant whinging.

    272. sassenach says:

      thepnr @6-10pm

      Agree with every word!

    273. Ken500 says:

      Keep right on till the end of the road. Keep right on to the end. Though the way be long just keep journeying on. Keep right on round the bend’. Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Margo – just get one other to vote YES. Independence is won.

      May -Thatcher Mark two – is driving people around the bend. Straight to Independence.

      A person in the South said in pubic. ‘Johnston for PM. Gove for something. Farague for Foreign secretary’. Not sure they were joking.

      A Fisherman saying it was EU policy to throw back dead fish. When the EU are trying to put in conservation measures. To protect the industry. It is UK Gov policy to allow ignorant people to throw back dead fish for years. Multimillionaires destroying their own industry and claiming poverty. Duplicitous liars.

    274. Ken500 says:

      Not getting a reply to two e-Mails certainly seems to prolongly upset some folk.

      They cut off their nose to spite their face. Harbouring grievances. Let it go. Let it go.

      Scotland goes YES to Independence.

    275. Shug says:

      Just watching may on tv
      I thing she is going for no deal and cancelling article 50 stopping brexit and blaming corbyn and some conservatives

    276. Ken500 says:

      Mack the arse

    277. ben madigan says:

      @Thepnr who said “Do your own thing by all means”

      Here’s a warning to the Scottish Independent Movement about what happens when people do their own thing due to ideological hair-splitting, egoism, personality differences and so forth

      This post is a summary of the present state of the Irish Republican movement, as taken from some New Year Statements.

    278. Terence callachan says:

      I was speaking to a friend I met at the last two SNP conferences who assures me the person here on wings called “cubby” is actually a Labour Party activist who often pretends to be a Scottish independence supporter but in reality votes Labour every time.
      I have disagreed with some of cubby,s posts on here and called him out for his threatening rude behaviour a few times and his response each time was to call me a Britnat, in fact he calls everyone a britnat if they disagree with his view.
      Not the full shilling
      Sandwich short of a picnic is how he was described
      I have never met him but
      It doesn’t surprise me that he is a Labour activist.

    279. galamcennalath says:

      @me @ 5:25pm

      Looks like May might be in for a hard time. First her Bill will fail and then Amendemnts to other legislation may make No Deal so undesirable that something has to be done to stop it.

    280. yesindyref2 says:

      Everybody, it’s not Mack or Mac with a capital “M”, they exist and are genuine. It’s “mac” with a small “m” and small brain and other small parts as well I expect.

    281. Thepnr says:

      @Terence callachan 6:51 pm

      Do you have a link for that? LOL

      You win a gold star and get 10/10 though for the most seriously deluded made up piece of crap ever posted on Wings.

      One that I predict will never be beaten 🙂

    282. Terence callachan says:

      cubby and geeo …the same person
      Everyone that disagrees with them is called a britnat
      And them ,a Labour activist for years and years

    283. Terence callachan says:

      Ben madigan…post at 6.48 on 6th January

      Spot on ,well said
      It’s what is happening here on wings

    284. galamcennalath says:

      Marr’s show is now just another outlet for pro Tory government propaganda!

      ” Andrew Marr lets Theresa May sell her Brexit border paradox to millions “

    285. geeo says:

      Callachan should be on Jackanory.

      Who was 2nd speaker on day 2 of this SNP Conference you were allegedly attending, and what did they talk about ?

      I’m not Cubby, I’m Spartacus…!!

      Desperate stuff from the resident bigot.

    286. mac says:


      And you will be Wanker , with a capital W.???

      And Prick with a capital P ???

    287. Angus Gother says:

      This might be the time to share something I have been mulling over for quite a while.
      Back in December 2007 I was at the rally at the Music Hall where Nicola gave a great speech and took questions afterwards.
      I remember one answer vividly, although have forgotten the question. She said that action for Indy needs to come from the grassroots, and we may have to think outside the box.

      In the current situation, the box is the system under which politics is conducted in the UK and in Scotland.
      The question of reclaiming our sovereignty is not a matter for the courts – that requires a political action. The problem is that the legal and political systems are designed to prevent our politicians from doings so without some form of consent from Westminster.

      All is not lost though. I think there is a way for the People of Scotland to exercise our sovereignty without taking it away from Westminster, and in a way that all the people of Scotland could agree to.

      This would be for enough people (say 55%) of the electorate to sign a suitable document that would then be delivered to the Queen to give to Parliament.
      Let’s set aside the mechanics of getting signatures, and exactly how the document would be given to the Queen in a way that means that it is not ignored as a stunt. Those details can be figured out if this document is considered to be a good idea.

      Document would be titled “Statement from the People of Scotland”.
      It would cover the following points:
      1. Welcome clarity given on legal establishment view of the constitution by Supreme Court ruling on continuity bill.
      2. Note error in ruling where it refers to the sovereignty of Parliament of the ‘unqualified sovereignty’ of parliament.
      3. Pre-Union English crown and parliament sovereignty was not qualified as they never had the power to take away the rights of the Citizens of London which were acknowledged by the then Duke of Normandy as a condition for London accepting him as King of England.
      4. Pre-Union Scots crown and parliament were not sovereign as they exercised sovereign powers for and on behalf of the People of Scotland who were sovereign.
      5. Treaty of Union 1706 that took effect on 1May 1707 was silent on sovereignty but original text of Union with England act made it clear that several articles gave the future parliament of uk powers in particular areas with article XVIII giving overall power to change public law. Several articles neglected to give uk parliament powers to amend those articles so that all Uk parliaments don’t have the power to repeal the Union with England Act, or abolish the monarchy as long as certain conditions are met, or abolish the Scottish legal system, and probably a few other things that I don’t know about.
      6. Therefore sovereignty of crown in parliament is not unqualified or unlimited.
      7. People of Scotland are still Sovereign in the jurisdiction of Scots Law.

      8. Careful reading of Union with England Act shows that the Treat intended the following effects:
      a. Crowns of England and Scotland united into single crown
      b. Both signatory kingdoms to be abolished
      9. However sovereign entities who signed the treaty were not abolished, so the expanded Crown in Parliament of England and the People of Scotland were to be equal partners in the UK of Great Britain, not affected by other unions, disunion and other changes since then.
      10. The People of Scotland being a sovereign entity implies that they are ultimate authority under Scots Law and are collectively above the law while all individuals remain subject to the law.
      11. There is no authority under Scots Law with authority to over rule the People of Scotland.
      12. Legal theories on the relationship between the People of Scotland and Parliament have developed from the presumptuous view of all constitutional law through the prism of English Law.
      13. People of Scotland have delegated sovereign powers to the crown and parliament, not lent as withdrawing such a loan requires consent of the borrower under international relations conventions.
      14. Note all the key events since 2014 where government or parliament have acted in contempt of the People of Scotland.
      15. Censure uk government and parliament for the sleekit and underhanded manner in which devolution settlement undermined by eu withdrawal act.
      16. People of Scotland exercise our Sovereign Prerogative and decree that various sanctions would be applied to the government and parliament.
      17. Dismiss SoSS and bar him from standing for any future election in Scotland or to any future appointment to public office including elevation to the lords. also dismiss him from the Privy Council.
      18. The Scottish Grand Committee to be revived.
      19. PM shall not have any say in appointment of any future Sec of State for Scotland. Queen shall appoint person recommended by Scottish Grand Committee. That person must be a member of the committed, and may be from a different party to that in government without requiring any coalition agreement between the chosen persons party and the party of government.
      20. Any use of Royal Prerogative shall not be effective in Scotland unless the Scottish Grand Committee has given consent.
      30. All acts of Parliament that relate the the eu withdrawal process that have been passed since the Eu ref are null and void in Scots Law.
      31. People of Scotland do not recognise validity of the Art. 50 notification because the decision to leave has not been taken in line with the constitutional requirements of the UK.
      32. All provisions in the Scotland Act that limit the powers of the Scottish Parliament or the Scottish Goverment are null and void.
      33. While the Scotland Act is in force, any provision or legal measure approved by the uk parliament shall not take effect in Scotland without the explicit consent of the Scottish Parliament.
      34. The Queen may not give Royal Assent to any bill unless she has received formal certificatoin that any provisions intended to be effective in Scotland have received the consent of the Scottish Parliament.
      35. Scottish Parliament to consult on and pass a Delegated Powers bill which shall repeal and replace the Scotland Act and come into affect after approval by referendum. That act would define and limit the powers delegated to uk parliament and crown and procedures to hold them accountable to People of Scotland.
      36. We suspend article XVIII of treaty of Union until further notice as parliament has demonstrated that it is not capable of legislating in the best interests of all parts of the uk.
      37. Crown in Parliament must acknowledge and accept this Statement within 14 days of receipt. If such acknowledgement has not been received by 1 Mar 2019, Scotland shall withdraw from treaty of Union at the same time as the UK withdraws from the eu. Ref to confirm that decision to be held as soon as possible.

      Sorry for the long list. I know it is not complete, and more detail will be needed, but I think that something like this will help Scotland to remain in the EU by whatever means necessary.
      It should also make it a lot easier for our representatives to be effective.

      P.s. am rather busy so haven’t proof read this properly. iPad may have done something to parts of the text!

    288. mac says:

      The sooner we dump Engurland the sooner we get on with the job of rebuilding Scotland and turning ger into one of the most prosperous Nations in Europe.

      Then we can watch the bastards south of our border shrivel up and die.

    289. Dorothy Devine says:

      OT Can anyone tell me if there are any more ancient war movies yet to be dug up by the TV companies?

      What the hell is this all about ? nothing joyful available or going cheap?

      I’m sure there are a number of us who can recite The Eagle has Landed.

    290. Colin Alexander says:

      If people want the SNP to sweeten the poison pill of colonial devolution for Scotland, that’s up to them.

      Have we forgotten already that UK Parliament didn’t even have the decency to get elected UK MPs to piss on Scotland’s sovereignty. After Mundell’s false promises, Scotland wasn’t even given a minute of Commons time with the EU Withdrawal Bill.

      To rub Scotland’s nose further in it, it was left to the Lords to show that Scotland’s devolution Parliamentary democracy is a sham.

      That SNP politicians went to these unelected ermine-robed insults to democracy asking for favours said it all.

      Under Ms Sturgeon it’s been SNP, bended knee.

      I will vote for independence, for a sovereign Scotland. I won’t vote for Labour’s devolution Mickey Mouse pretence of democracy at Holyrood and I won’t vote for the SNP to run the scam for them either.

    291. Hamish100 says:

      i WONT i WONT i WONT i WILL

      Thanks for clearing that up. No more posts necessary!!

    292. stewartb says:

      Thepnr @ 6:10 pm

      Many thanks for this post. Needs to be said. Well done!

    293. wull2 says:

      If wingers ae desperate to watch something on TV, watch live darts on Quest C37, its more to the point.

    294. K1 says:

      Hear hear Thpnr

    295. stewartb says:


      The writing at the indyref2 blog on Scotland’s media is always enlightening but the article today really hits home about not only how badly we are served by the mainstream media but how awful (even ‘evil’?) it has become:

    296. Cubby says:

      Terence Callachan@6.51pm

      1. Still waiting for you to say where and when I threatened you. A lie?

      2. Did you ever prove your 800k English living in Scotland figure? A lie?

      2. Terry old boy proving that Britnats lie and lie all the time about nearly everything.

      3. Terry the phoney independence supporter who wants my son (born In England) who lives in Scotland never to be able to vote on Scottish independence.

      4. Terry the great advocate of free speech other than when he is asked to prove his wild assertions.

      5. I am not a labour activist or Geeo or Spartacus but Richard Leonard. LOL

      6. I have a lot of contempt for the media in Scotland but that is only surpassed by my contempt for phoney independence supporters on Wings like you Terry old boy. Try following your pal Essexexile and pissoff for a long time – next century will do fine.

    297. Liam says:

      Here’s a thing:

      There are two weekly comic books for kids left in the UK. The Beano and The Phoenix. This week’s issue of The Phoenix contains an advert for a forthcoming strip called ‘No Country’ set in the year 2023. Helpfully, to orientate readers and do a bit of world building, they include a map:

    298. Rock says:

      mac says:
      6 January, 2019 at 3:49 am

      “Evil Petra strikes again!!!”

      She quietly sneaked in through the backdoor after her attempts at blackmailing the owner of this blog backfired:

      Petra (24th February 2018 – “The makings of a deal”):

      “My last post didn’t appear on here. Maybe it was considered to be absolute rubbish?

      Meanwhile the last few posts since 11:26pm other than KOF, Robert Peffers, Brian, yesindyref2 and Hamish have basically made me decide that it’s time to move on. Made me realise that I’m wasting my precious time on here.

      If this is the calibre of posts that’s supposed to attract people to supporting Independence, I give up.”

    299. geeo says:

      If you want to say bye bye to mac, best do it soon…!

      Hammer time is upon him shortly i suspect…

    300. Rock says:

      Colin Alexander says:
      6 January, 2019 at 10:34 am

      “The latest story from the Herald: about anti-semitism across Europe.

      Nothing to do with the SNP but, a big SNP poster of Nicola Sturgeon with a swastika added on, possibly photoshopped onto it, is put with the story.”

      Just hope Davey didn’t buy The Herald again, “by mistake” of course.

      Dave McEwan Hill says:
      1 January, 2019 at 12:08 pm (The one we’ve waited for)

      “With no National to enjoy this merning I made the mistake of buying a Herald.”

      And they accuse others of being Britnats.

    301. Rock says:

      K1 says:
      6 January, 2019 at 1:27 pm

      “If there and I say ‘if’ cause very unlikely, where to be another GE who would Labour voters in Scotland vote for given that many are Remain in EU voters?”

      K1 says:
      6 January, 2019 at 1:29 pm

      “In essence how could a Labour voter vote Tory in any GE going forward? Irrespective of SNP bad campaign this time?”

      So it is possible to post a comment without using the “f” word FOR THE SAKE OF IT to exhibit your personal ego?

    302. Hamish100 says:

      rock — do you buy the Sunday National and National every day or stick with the Express or Guardian?

      There is no doubt DMcEH is a Independence and SNP supporter through and through and since time began (well as long as tele was 2 channels and black and white).

    303. Rock says:

      Ian Brotherhood says:
      6 January, 2019 at 3:33 pm

      “Someone help me out here…

      Has any unionist party in Scotland stated, at any time, that they intend to puruse reunification when Scotland does become independent?”

      Some things go without stating Ian, but there will definitely be an attempt:

      Rock (1st January – “The broken telescope”):

      “Only 621 years before Scotland becomes independent in 2640 AD.

      My only fear is a “people’s referendum” in 2642 AD which might reverse the Yes vote in 2640 AD.”

    304. yesindyref2 says:

      Then we can watch the bastards south of our border shrivel up and die.

      You are Bojo and I claim my £5.

    305. Rock says:

      Hamish100 says:
      6 January, 2019 at 9:04 pm

      “rock — do you buy the Sunday National and National every day or stick with the Express or Guardian?”

      Nick Robinson, better stock up on your meds while they are still available.

    306. Robert Peffers says:

      @mac says: 6 January, 2019 at 7:38 pm:

      ” … Then we can watch the bastards south of our border shrivel up and die.”

      And there you show your true colours, mac.

      Wingers don’t want to see Her Majesty Queen of England’s subjects suffer. We only want rid of Her Majesty the Queen of the Kingdom of England’s government at Westminster having anything to do with ruling over the Kingdom of Scotland. Which incidentally is NOT her Kingdom of Scotland as she is only Queen of Scots.

      Her function under Scots law is to protect the sovereignty of the people of Scotland. A job she has signally miserably failed to do. Under Scots law we, the legally sovereign people of Scotland have the legal right to drive her out for neglecting her sworn duty under Scots law.

      Such bigotry as you exhibit is not welcome here on Wings – but, however, you are free to express such vile beliefs here. Thing is they only serve to tie the label bigot round your neck.

    307. Proud Cybernat says:

      A wee experiment I’d like to conduct, so, please oblige my indulgence here. If you have been to a WoS gathering and have introduced your WoS handle to other Wingers (who you know can verify this), please add your name to the list:

      Proud Cybernat

    308. Thepnr says:

      @Proud Cybernat

      I’ll add to the list, one I’m pleased to be on 🙂

      Proud Cybernat

    309. yesindyref2 says:

      Proud Cybernat
      yesindyref2 (tent thingy at Glasgow Green)

      Stage 2 could be interesting …

    310. Liz g says:

      Proud Cybernat @9.43
      Add me to the list too.
      I’ve been to a few gatherings.
      Don’t have a fancy handle, Liz is my real name .

    311. Capella says:

      @ Proud Cybernat – you can add Capella too.

    312. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Wings get-togethers?

      Been there, done that! And I must follow Rev’s rules – “DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan.”


    313. Sarah says:

      Proud Cybernat – I know cearc who has been to a Wings get together, and cearc knows me. Does that help your cunning plan?

    314. Nana says:

      Proud Cybernat, add me to your list.

      Met a lovely bunch of Wingers at a George Sq rally [too many to list] and have hosted a few Wings stalwarts as stopover guests [they know who they are]

      All those I’ve met know me by my name.

    315. Bill Hume says:

      I met Smallaxe……and have the photographic evidence to prove it.

    316. Lenny Hartley says:

      Proud cypernat ex Jingly Jangly

    317. Liz g says:

      Oh have we to name others…
      Betty Boop
      Jock Scot
      This could take a while

    318. Liz g says:

      Cameron B Brodie
      Ronnie Anderson

    319. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Despite numerous invites over the past four years or so, Rock has never introduced her/himself at a Wings get-together, or Wings stall at a march/rally.

      We can only be left to assume that “Rock” is the fabrication of someone’s active imagination, and this fabrication does not regard itself as “one of us”, ie actual real, living Wingers.

      Therefore, she/he must be “one of them”, whosoever “them” may be.

      Discuss. I’ll collect your papers in 30 minutes.


    320. Liz g says:

      Robert J Sutherland
      Ian Brotherhood

    321. Macart says:


      Been away for a few days doing the family thing and just scanning the thread. Clocked your 6.10pm post.

      Pretty much that.

      If enough people want it? It will happen and a sympathetic Scottish government WILL carry out the wishes of Scotland’s population. The people are the sovereign power in Scotland, not the state. And only a majority of Scotland’s electorate can instruct the Scottish parliament to end said political treaty.

      Popular sovereignty isn’t a serving suggestion. You either believe in the will of the people, or you don’t. You either support the premise that the government is your servant, or you don’t. You either want an administration that believes in your rights, (and that one in particular), or you don’t.

      Folk need to remember who and what they are up against. The real source of their woes. It’s not the Scottish government. They’re holding the door open against pretty hefty odds and looking for that opportunity to offer our population a chance to make a decision that ONLY they can make.

      How much longer they can hold that door open for? That’s up to the electorate.

    322. K1 says:

      Aye me too, ta Liz

    323. Still Positive says:

      I met Ronnie Anderson and a few others in George Square a few years ago.

    324. K1 says:

      I’ve posted many comments in the last few days Craig where I did not use the word Fuck to get right up the noses of wanksockets like you…you stupid fuckin prick 😉

    325. Liz g says:


    326. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Dorothy Devine (7.26) –

      ‘Can anyone tell me if there are any more ancient war movies yet to be dug up by the TV companies?’

      Someone told me ‘The Guns Of Michelle Mone’ is on sometime next week.

    327. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Cameron B Brodie
      Bob Costello
      Craig Murray
      have all been at get-togethers or rallies…

    328. K1 says:

      Highland Wifie


    329. K1 says:


    330. Thepnr says:

      Does anyone remember the troll we had posting on Wings for years using the name “will podmore”?

      I say that name yesterday when reading a news article on Brexit and it turns out to be a real person right enough. He used to tell anyone here that would listen that he wasn’t a socialist he was a communist. So it was a bit of a surprise to me to find out that he’s had articles in that most right wing of online BrexitCentral.

      Also turns out he’s written a whole book about Brexit called “The Road to Freedom” which is pretty rich coming from a Communist LOL.

      This though is the point of my wee trip back down memory lane, the Communists are just as likely to support Brexit as Jeremy Corbyn is. Corbyn has always believed that it is some sort of Capitalist state that we need to be out of.

      He hasn’t seemed yet to have thought that it is now all the UK Capitalists that want out of the EU where workers rights are protected, money laundering is stamped upon and unfettered Capitalism seeking the likes of no protection for consumers over safe food production are given short shrift.

      Corbyn is an idiot living a world that has moved on, he want’s to leave one group of Capitalists for a truly more abhorrent group led by Trump and the US.

      Just like our old Communist friend on Wings from days gone by. He’s a old balloon that needs pricking, POP! That’s coming for Corbyn no matter what happens next, he is as likely to lose his position as Labour leader as May is as Tory leader. Even Westminster will only put up with complete and utter fools in charge for so long.

      No doubt we’ll know soon enough.

    331. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      And the next Wings get-together is in the Counting House at George Square Glasgow, on Saturday, 2nd March, mid-afternoon onwards.

    332. Cubby says:

      I am Richard Leonard and have it on my current to do list to attend a Wings get together. Perhaps on the same day I am attending the Scotland in Union dinner if I can fit it in. Will there be room for my trampoline at the Wings function.

    333. K1 says:


    334. Liz g says:

      Still Positive @ 10.26
      I think I met you at a BBC Demo and mibbi the HOOP ?

    335. yesindyref2 says:

      I’ve met Paula Rose, Tom Jardine and of couse Lucia Daines 🙂 Just missed Lenny Hartley a couple of times on Arran.

    336. ronnie anderson says:

      Dorothy Devine the guns of Mascarponei ye canny lick it lol.

    337. Macart says:

      Ayup. Been to one or two git thigithers. 🙂

      Hoping to get time to see some folks in March if I can.

    338. Liz g says:

      Tam Jardine

    339. yesindyref2 says:


    340. Sarah says:

      Anthony Trollope wrote a book “Phineas Finn” about an MP who was thought useful by his party because he could stand up and spout for hours without saying anything specific.

      That is Chris Grayling’s job. I watched him hold the floor in the Commons where his task was to defend EVEL. Nothing anybody said made any difference to him. He just carries on without expression or emotion talking empty words for as long as it is thought necessary by his party.

      He has no principles, apparently, and is totally unengaged in the meaning or matter of the subject. Hence he could talk utter drivel about it being a good thing to hand over £13.9 million to a “start-up” company which is suddenly meant to be able to supply ferry services. Any normal person would be embarrassed and ashamed to argue that. But not Grayling.

      It is terrifying that people like him are in charge of our destiny.

    341. schrodingers cat says:



    342. mac says:

      Does anyone really care what happens in England after Brexit???

      Scotland is our number one priority, not some second rate country who thinks it will never happen to them.

      Well have I got news for them,,,it is about to happen to you,,,you are about to go right down the fuckin drain England,,,GIRFUY England

    343. schrodingers cat says:

      I miss heedtracker 🙁

      happy new year if you are still reading

      rev, if you see this comment, please unblock him. he’s been on the naughty step long enough

    344. Hamish100 says:

      rock still cannot answer the question put to him over many months as to what paper he reads. Is it too embarrassing? Is he a pretendy journalist like Gordon, Hutcheon, Crichton , Clegg? I suppose they are hoping for new work.

    345. schrodingers cat says:

      I miss heidtracker ?

      happy new year if you are still reading

      rev, if you see this comment, please unblock him. he’s been on the naughty step long enough

    346. yesindyref2 says:

      Never met Heed, Ken500, Robert Peffers – or cat. Seen them often enough on Guardian, Newsnet, Herald even, or other places.

    347. schrodingers cat says:

      this mac poster reminds me of a recently blocked poster who ended up threatening physical violence on everyone

      i think his last outbusts is worthy of a sanction, if he continues, as im sure he will, anyone emailing the rev to complain is free to include my name in the email

    348. mac says:

      No Deal Brexit will mean the birth of Scotland and the death of the detested English.

    349. yesindyref2 says:

      Heed was put on moderation for a time and clearly took the huff. I guess I’d be the same.

    350. ronnie anderson says:

      gerry parker
      Jim & Jan Brown
      John & Irene King
      Paul Kavanagh
      Kevin Gibney
      Dr Morag
      Lyn Middleton

    351. Liz g says:

      Shrodingers Cat @ 11.20
      I’ve already drawn it to the Revs attention earlier this afternoon

    352. Davie Oga says:

      I am a Scottish European who lives 10 miles from the British border in Ireland. I didn’t “abandon” Scotland as some are want to say. My wife is currently unable to enter the United Kingdom as a non EEA national due to the Home Office. To be together we had to choose between Nigeria and an EU country. There are no statistics for how many Scots are living in other EU countries but it is anywhere between 50-100000. Not once have I heard any so called nationalist politician speak up for our rights and EU citizenship that is about to be taken away by England’s muppet political class. Not once!
      When the second referendum bill went through the Scottish parliament we had hope. That hope is diminishing daily as Scotland’s political representatives support a non-existent peoples vote.
      We are told to be patient, that there is some kind of strategy, to trust in politicians of all people.

      People are criticizing Breeks but at least
      he/she proposes something other than watching like impotent poseurs as May takes the ball to the corner flag.

      Incidentally, I may not agree with everything written by the likes of Colin, Terence or Rock for that matter, but they are a hell of a lot more interesting to read than the repetitive accusatory gibberish of the Britnat Finder General’s.

    353. schrodingers cat says:

      this is true dads, but i have met ronnie, paula, pnr, small ax and others.

      we should make a point of meeting up this year, its about 5 years now we have been playing tag in cyberspace,

      tag me on twitter the next time you are in deepest darkest nefife, feel free to drop in for a quick fly past. always welcome mon ami

    354. yesindyref2 says:

      woah, still time to say

      Little Women’s Christmas!

      I hope the guys did all the messages and the women got a night out 🙂

    355. Thepnr says:

      @Davie Oga

      You feeling grumpy or what. Why are you aiming your anger at “nationalist politicians” who are not responsible for YOUR predicament?

      No that would surely be the Tories and the Labour party.

      “Not once have I heard any so called nationalist politician speak up for our rights and EU citizenship that is about to be taken away by England’s muppet political class. Not once!”

      Try this for starters, the day after the EU referendum result.

      Here’s another.

      Davie Oga, I don’t think you pay any attention at all or you would already have known all this. Open your eyes man.

    356. robertknight says:

      Can’t say I’ve been to any WoS gigs I’m afraid.

      A couple of marches through Glasgow leading up to the referendum in 2014.

      Anti-BBC at St Enoch’s Square and Factory of Lies HQ at PC; sporting my “Blatantly Biased Coverage” poster on the end of a pole.

      Edinburgh mega-march last year.

      But I’ll catch up with you all sometime… 🙂

    357. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @SC & yesindyref2 –


      Heedy must surely have been the topmost commenter on here (numbers wise) when he was bagged.


    358. Ken500 says:

      Worldwide religious support is falling. More people get the vote and want to run the affairs of their country. Not be blown to bits.

      Yet some exposed journalists suggest that uniquely in the world if more people went to Church in Scotland that would increase unionists support. Scotland outvoted 10 to 1. Never gets Democracy. Except through the limited powered Holyrood. Denied a more powerful administration. Thatcher et al unionist Parties spoilt that outcome. Never out of the Church, sanctionig and starving others. Not very Christian.

      Going backwards.

      France wants to rule itself. Germany wants to rule itself. Italy wants to control it’s own affairs. Including Church goers. All have religion in decline but increased in population (migration). From other religions, Religion is in decline worldwide but people want to run their own countries.

      Conception practices and choice limit the population. Less increas in population in places (without migration) worldwide. It will,peak and Likely go down.

      Next they will be claimig people should have more children, and go to Church to diminish Democracy. Brexit could stop the number of priest and ministers coming to Britain because they don’t earn enough. There is a shortage of religious administrators. No travelling or integration. .

      13% identify as Catholic. 34% of Protestant. 1.5% identify as Moslem. Not all church goers?

      50/50. Yes/No So according to this (ridiculous?) theory. 50% (electoral) Church goers support the Union 50% of the electorate non Church goers do not. They support Independence. The Ballot is secret. So how can that be confirmed.

      Independence supporters are less godly, moral or good? All immoral ‘B’? That is the theory being promoted. Simply ridiculous. More likely the psycho unionists bastards are Party to Killing and maiming millions worldwide. Never out of the Church.

      Many people want Independence to stop the illegal killing.

      The Commandments. ‘Thou shall not kill’ ignored. Ignored by unionists Parties. Illegal,killings.

    359. yesindyref2 says:

      Happy unChristmas!

    360. Ken500 says:

      People can’t take their wives spouses to Scotland because the UK Gov prevents it. People voted NO in the IndyRef.

      People (migrant) families are supporting Brexit. Under the present proposals their relatives (migrant) families could bevdeported. Chucked out but they are voting and supporting it. Brexit.

      There are ways of getting family reunions. Stay in another EU country for a time. Then come to Britain. That loop could be changed with Brexit. If the Tories are not gone.

      Johnston etc in government power is a migrant. Born in New York, brought up in Brussels on EU monies. Migrants in the Gov would be deporting other migrants. For making a mistake in their tax or a minor conviction. Not earning over £30,000 or getting sick. It would break up families.

      A judge in Dcotland recently stopped two people being deported for making a small mistake in their tax declaration. Really easy to do. Goodness knows how much it is costing. In legal fees etc.

    361. Lanarkist says:

      HNY SC, I agree, miss Heedie too and hope he is keeping well.

      Term starts tomorrow for many, it’s going to be one hell of a term!

    362. mr thms says:

      #Davie Oga @ 11:25 pm

      You said

      “Not once have I heard any so called nationalist politician speak up for our rights and EU citizenship that is about to be taken away by England’s muppet political class. Not once!”

      On Wednesday 28th November 2018, the Leader of the Scottish National Party in the House of Commons said, during Prime Minister’s Question Time told Theresa May..

      “People in Scotland voted overwhelming to Remain, we voted for our rights to be respected and we are not prepared to give up those rights.

      The Prime Minister must explain to the people of Scotland why her deal will rob them of their rights as EU citizens.”

    363. Ken500 says:

      Delightful though family reunions can be. Many people are glad when relatives depart after Christmas/New Year. Relieved the ‘B’s are gone. Peace and quiet returns. Until they reappear at some point and return.

    364. @Sarah,

      Grayling,like Ruthie,is ex BBC,

      just an establishment mouthpiece spouting inane meaningless brexit gibberish,

      the UK Government/cabinet is full of similar specimens such as Leadsom,Hancock,Lidington,Fox and Gove.

    365. crazycat says:

      @ Liz g

      Thanks for adding me to the list

      I’ve also met (apologies if they’ve been mentioned already):

      Flower of Scotland
      Call Me Dave
      Quinie frae Angus
      James Barr Gardiner
      Michael McCabe
      Tinto Chiel
      Pete the Camera
      Jim T
      Clandestiny (maybe not how they are known here)
      Alex McArthur

      Plus a few who’ve vanished, like Oneironaut, the one who used to be YesGuy, and maybe more.

      I also know that there are others I’ve missed in the passing, finding out when I get home that they were where I’ve just come from, but I never knowingly saw them.

      Tartan Tory was at a few things I missed.

    366. Davie Oga says:


      Fair dos.

      Seriously angry and frustrated waiting for our fate to be decided for us. I don’t blame SNP politicians but I dont’t have any confidence in their ability to deliver
      an independence referendum or any another method that will preserve my European citizenship and my wife’s EUFAM treaty rights before the 29th of March.

    367. Thepnr says:

      The only party to have spoken up wholeheartedly for Freedom of Movement in the UK is the SNP.

      They’re the party that want the powers over immigration devolved in order to encourage others to move to Scotland and increase the ratio of the working population to those that have retired or are still at school.

      Why someone would chose to put any blame at all on the SNP for not sticking up for Scottish citizens rights to remain EU members and for EU citizens already here is beyond me.

      The fact that such people remain ignorant of the fact that it is only the SNP who are fighting for citizens rights and for immigrants to remain in the UK is beyond me. Yet here they are posting on Wings. Ignorance it seems knows no bounds.

    368. Still Positive says:

      liz G @10.36

      I have been at neither so you cannot have met me.

    369. Thepnr says:

      The SNP will only EVER have “the power to deliver” after the people of Scotland grant them the rights to govern all aspects of our lives and that means fist gaining Independence.

      It might have escaped your notice but we’re not there. Put that to the top of the list because until then? Everything else is meaningless waffle, simply put Scotland doesn’t have the power yet to do many things that everyone seemingly want’s then to do.

      Guess we’ll have to join the SNP or another Indy party, get out there posting leaflets, speaking at rallies and taking part in marches. That stuff that EVERY supporter of Independence does. They do don’t they?

    370. Liz g says:

      Crazy Cat @ 12.12
      OMG how could I forget Quinie Fae Angus….
      We bunked together in the Air B&B after the Edinburgh march… she even brought us all soup..
      Just as well she’s so lovely otherwise I’d be in big trouble… LOL.
      Wonder who else I’ve forgotten!!!!

    371. crazycat says:

      @ Proud Cybernat

      I’ve met Daisy Walker too – on a march and at the Wings stall later; does that count?

    372. yesindyref2 says:

      Rogue Coder …

    373. yesindyref2 says:

      Ken err, iScot

    374. Daisy Walker says:

      Does tae me 😉

    375. crazycat says:

      @ Liz g

      Whom have we forgotten? TJenny!
      And many more no doubt.

    376. Thepnr says:

      I’ve met at a Wings night out and this is without a word of a lie.

      A Brain Surgeon and an Archaeologist (Prof.) and at the next table there was a lorry driver, a retired railway worker and a musician.

      Every word is true, Wings is as diverse as the richness of all of the diversity of Scotland’s people. Just a fact.

    377. Liz g says:

      Still Positive @ 12.25
      We’ll now I’m in even more trouble cause I cannot think who I’m mixing you up with..
      Anyhoo… it was nice to have imagined I did,”you” ( or the person I thought was you were very nice) !!! LOL
      Hopefully we will actually meet for real soon,I’m sure we will now both remember it?

    378. crazycat says:

      @ Daisy Walker

      It absolutely counts for me too, but I don’t know why PC is making his list and how he defines a “gathering”. If he means a get-together in a pub, then a march is not that.

    379. crazycat says:

      There are also several people who post here (occasionally) whom I’ve never met at a Wings gathering, but whom I know for other reasons,and at least one whom I think I know, but am not quite sure.

    380. Liz g says:

      Thepnr @ 12.39
      There seems to be an awful lot of us too…
      We’re not even counting partners, adult kids and kid kids!

    381. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Ian Brotherhood at 10.29

      Did you not mean “The Buns of Michelle Mone?”

    382. Why are we all talking about who we’ve met?

    383. Ken500 says:

      There are 6,000 Jewish folk in Scotland. 1000 in Edinburgh and 5,000 in Glasgow.

      How many vote SNP 50/50 unionists. Take away the non voters. 400 Unionist 400 SNP Edinburgh

      1,500 Unionist 1,500 SNP? Edinburgh.

      Out of an electorate of 4,000,000. 2,500,000 voters?

      Carlaw started this to cause trouble. He briefed Hutcheon. For a backhander To make a mountain out of a mole hill. Extraordinary exaggeration. The Press never to fail to go lower. How low can they go. Trying to make political capital out of a extreme minority religion in Scotland. Trying to make trouble for money. Ignorance personified. To try and attack the SNP government. Despicable.

    384. Liz g says:

      Meh Merrilees @ 12.52
      Proud Cybernat asked us too,for some sort of experiment?

    385. mr thms says:

      If Parliament votes to reject the PM’s deal, apart from the possibility of there being a GE, or Peoples Vote, it would also have the effect of postponing Brexit by a couple of months.

      Should that happen, it would result in the UK taking part in elections to the European Parliament in May!

      If that scenario becomes a reality, It makes me wonder if that was always the intention.

      I have always thought it makes more sense to see Article 50 as facilitating the dissolution of a country and for its successor states to then “rejoin” the EU, rather than leave.

      (Which part 5, of Article 50 allows, under Article 49)

      Theresa May’s ‘transitional arrangement’ after Brexit would make it a possibility.

    386. Tackety Beets says:

      Thepnr @ 10.30

      Oor Will Podmore ……

      Back then I found him on FB & amused myself for 10 mins on his FB TL , he was based then in England, can’t recall exactly, but it amused me he spent so much time on WoS, very odd.

      Altho’ I/we never agreed with him on very much, I would have him down as a respectful poster. PMSL most of the time tho’

      Thinking about the many who we grew to know yet have slide away. Im sure many are lurking but are more active on twitter these days.

      Sadly I have always been otherwise engaged on Wings days but have attempted visits to the stalls on Indy march days. Found them crowded out, hopefully one day Alex.

      I met a fellow winger wearing a Wings badge way back 2013/14, sadly his name escapes me, but I remember exactly what he looked like.

      I am friendly with Mr & Mrs Gary45% who had Wings & Indy Livery on his work van.

    387. Aha!

      In that case….

      I’ve met Smallaxe and a couple of others at the Wings stall at the Bannockburn March but I can’t remember their names – how pathetic is that! – and I have a vile cybernate badge to prove it.

    388. geeo says:

      Liz g says:

      6 January, 2019 at 11:24 pm

      Shrodingers Cat @ 11.20
      I’ve already drawn it to the Revs attention earlier this afternoon

      As did I.

      Same with that Mike on previous thread (not seen since).

      Best way to stop them, send them to the boss.

    389. Ken500 says:

      More people used to file for divorced after Christmas/New Year ‘celebrations’. Not overeating on chocolates, but pissed up fighting. Less folk do now because less folk marry. Marriage figures has peaked and fallen. A lot of people were getting divorced in their sixties for a while. Sick of each other.

      More folk are now marrying later more chance of the survival. Or remarrying. People mature and get older at the same pace/rate. More double barrelled names like the Spanish. They take their mothers and fathers name. If they know who they are.

      Many European countries are predominately Catholic. France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Poland etc. There has been a revival in Scotland because of the migrants. They have beautiful churches. People can visit.

      Eastern/Russia orthodox Christians. The Ukranians orthodoxy have just claimed a split from the Russian Church. A bit of a rammy. Putin supports the Church in Russia. After it was banned for years.

      In Scotland the Churches have privileges above the Law. The employment and equal opportunity Laws.

    390. Thepnr says:

      @Tackety Beets

      Agree about will podmore always being respectful, same for others we’ve had like Sensible Dave at least both were upfront of where they were from and what they were about.

      We still have posters now with their own agenda’s and I’m not talking just of names that might jump instantly to mind. Let’s just say that in some cases it’s plain to me at least that Independence is not their first priority for posting here even though it may be political in purpose.

      Anyway, been happening since I first found Wings and will be happening right up until I write my final post. I’m sure we’ll manage, and I hope we do have that drink eventually 🙂

    391. Cubby says:

      If Robert Peffers and other( fine) vintage independence supporters who have wanted independence all their life can show some patience then we can all make an effort to do so. If frustrated and annoyed take it out on the Britnats and their media (it works for me) not the SNP the only vehicle that can gain independence for Scotland. The only Party that has ever held a referendum for independence.

    392. Ken500 says:

      Will Podmore was a college lecturer? or activist with close ties to the Labour Party. An activist. Getting paid for propaganda duties? He did not hide who he was. It could be googled. A socialist. He wrote books or pamphlets influenced by Labour.

    393. Tackety Beets says:


      Ref Ken @ iScot, his handle Kendomacaroon bar & his avatar was like a Simpsons character.

      Jeezo , my minds dropped back in time Scottish Skier, Folding Bike, John King , Brotyboy , Lesley Anne cough cough aheem.Handclapping, Alexicon whose avitar was Willie fae Simpsons to name but a few from yesteryear.

    394. mr thms says:

      “Protestors demand Abellio is stripped of rail contract”

      The ‘Protestors’ are Scottish Labour and the TSSA union.

      I wonder why they are not ‘protesting’ for the devolution of publically owned Network Rail?

    395. Ken500 says:

      Some folk like to keep in disguise. Less hassle.

      Sometimes when internet folk meet up. The person imagined is nothing like the original. Sometime it is interesting to see photos etc of the people, but they do not appear as imagined.

      Like a book version apposed to a movie. Reading a book imagining a character appearance. Then cast in a film looking far different than imagined. . Sonetimes it is better to read the book first.

    396. manandboy says:

      The stated objective of the Electoral Board in Scotland on Indy2014 was to produce a result that everyone could trust.

      Since then, as the EU referendum revealed, there are people in PR, IT, Social Media, political communications and finance, who know how to change Remain to Leave. And no one seems able or willing to stop them.

      That being so, a ‘trusted result’ is now virtually impossible.

      If this state of affairs continues, the electorate will start to wonder ‘what’s the point of voting’?

      A serious breakdown of The System is coming down the road to meet us.

      Meanwhile, the irresistible force of Leave and the immovable object of Remain are shortly to meet head on.

      Can anyone seriously say that the UK will soon ‘settle down’, as David Cameron famously requested after Indy2014.

    397. Thepnr says:


      I see NO prospect of a “settling down” over either Brexit or Independence for Scotland or N. Ireland for at least the next 5 years.

      I’m not saying any or all of these things will happen but if even that they do there will be no chance of just “settling down”.

      It’s been a bumpy road all the way up this hill and it’s going to be a bumpy road all the way back down before we eventually come to a halt. All we need to do is stay in the cart and not fall off before we reach the bottom. I mean that literally.

    398. Liz g says:

      geeo @ 1.14
      Well that’s what he asked us to do and he is the only one who can really real with it!

    399. Sarah says:

      @Liz g and SC at 11.20 or so – I too reported the problem to the Rev this evening.

    400. Liz g says:

      Sarah @ 1.58
      Poor Rev,he must be sick to the back teeth of these clowns.
      But this one was trying to make out that Petra,Hamish 100 and then Ken 500 reported Cactus.
      As you will know Sarah he would have no way of actually knowing that for sure because any contact is private,so he has to be just trying to cause trouble.
      The only way to know IF Cactus had been reported to the Rev was if mac had done it himself…. And the bit he forgets is that the Rev will actually know who did or didn’t contact him.

    401. Sarah says:

      Oh dear, Liz, that is a horrible thing for the person in question to do. I hadn’t realised. I just noticed what he was saying about England and the English which was bad enough.

    402. yesindyref2 says:

      @Tackety Beets
      You still see some on other forums – or on twitter timelines.

      A couple of other occasional posters here, Tony Little and Alasdair Galloway, both you see on the Herald, sound as a bell.

      A lot of unsung heroes whose only reward will be Indy 🙂

      And then you get that soor-faced numpty Leask making comments about us all and the sad thing is I think he supports Indy.

    403. mac says:

      Hello rerr Cactus,,,,hope you are well big man.

    404. mac says:

      Teresa’s Brexit Plan is about to hit the buffers and will probably lead to Nicola announcing the date for IndyRef2.

      My fellow Wingers, our day of destiny is approaching.

    405. Liz g says:

      Sarah @ 2.45
      Yes Sarah … A nasty piece of work right enough.
      Just do what I’m doing and blank the fool till the Rev catches up with him.
      We’re only on an online forum with him,my pity is saved for those who actually have to suffer him.
      Ah mean,imagine that coming hame tae ye!

    406. mac says:

      Wings Over Scotland will be one of our biggest assets once the date for IndyRef2 is announced and we are so privileged to have Rev Stu on board.

      My fellow Wingers prepare foe a Unionist onslaught against this site.

    407. William Wallace says:

      With regards to wingers met. I have only really met a handful at the marches as I have not yet made any of the wings gatherings. Cactus, Mr & Mrs Smallaxe, Hackalumpoff (Dundee and Dumfries march) and I think I said hi to BDTT at Dumfries if I mind right (I think he was moving stuff around in the wings tent).

      I’ve introduced myself a couple of times at the wings tent at the various marches and people have said oh I’m so and so but, I’ve a head like a sieve and promptly forgot.

      I also tried to meet some of you at the Glasgow march but you were all hiding in the Counting House and I couldn’t find your tables although I did come across a couple of wings lurkers and shared a few pints with them instead.

      There are a few of you I would really like to meet and hopefully I’ll see you fairly soon at the upcoming meets. That’s if you are not too busy avoiding me 😉 🙂

    408. mac says:

      William Wallace look forward to meeting you at the next Wings get together,,,Cactus and the other usual gang will probably be there.

    409. Liz g says:

      William Wallace @ 6.03am
      Hi William,hope you are keeping well!
      It happens to me all the time at marches too.
      I meet one or two and then find out I’ve missed about a dozen or so by minutes.
      Met Smallaxe at Glasgow Green (the time with the lightning) for about 2 minutes and every time after that it became a bit of a joke how often we just missed each other.
      But hopefully you’ll make it to one of the night outs?

    410. mac says:

      Sky News as per usual telling viewers of increased funding for the U.K. NHS. There is of course no such entity. They are again taking England as being the whole UK.

      Thus happens on a regular basis, especially Sky News, where England only stories are reported as being UK wide stories.

      Lazy arrogant journalism from our English neighbours.

    411. Breeks says:

      Thepnr says:
      6 January, 2019 at 5:22 pm

      “If anyone did then they obviously chose not to attempt it and decided that Independence was best achieved by going down the referendum route where the sovereign people actually tell you what they want before you impose something on them without asking.”

      Not only is that a lame excuse for doing nothing, it’s a lame admission you can’t even be bothered to find out why they’re doing nothing. You’re happy to wear doing nothing like a security blanket because somebody else is taking responsibility…. Keeps the sheep in the field right enough…

      “You know as well as I do that absolutely NOTHING will come of your fantasy for Scotland to unilaterally do something it cannot possibly do like revoke Article 50.”

      Don’t ever group my opinion in beside with your defeatist whining. A cross party group of Scottish MP’s took an emerging Constitutional ambiguity to the ECJ and established Scots Law had Legal Personality, and adequate competence to rebuff a lobby from the UK Supreme Court, thus pulling the wheels of the UK Parliamentary Sovereignty bullshit, and subsequently giving the Scottish Parliamentarians a binding edict over the UK Parliament. Three cheers!.. Now what? Another helping of enigmatic silence.

      When a cross party group of MP’s with no mandate or electoral majority asking or compelling them to take the case to the ECJ in the first place, I am left deeply perplexed why the SNP, who are meant to be advocates of Scottish Independence remember, can be led by the nose and shown how to secure a Constitutional victory in an International Court of Law by a cross party initiative with no mandate, yet STILL sit on their hands as the clock runs down.

      You might be satisfied that the enigmatic SNP does nothing, but I’m not. Not only do I struggle to understand why the SNP hasn’t used a similar strategy to secure Legal Personality for Scotland in Brexit Negotiations, but I want to know why the SNP has not secured a Constitutional Scottish Backstop where Scotland’s popular sovereignty is as obdurate and unsinkable as Ireland’s Backstop which is recognised and backed to the hilt by the EU.

      What I see emerging is same insipid weakness and procrastination and singular lack of initiative as the sands of time run out on Brexit. If that misreads the situation, then the alternative is even less palatable, because it tends to suggest the SNP is pro Brexit and their rhetoric is disingenuous froth of opportunity.

      The SNP might enjoy basking in the roll of Champions for Independence, and yes, I am entirely satisfied with their competence and philosophy in Devolved Government, but for better or worse, I seem to be immune to the blind faith of SNP footsoldiers who march with their eyes closed in just the same way I also, thank God, seem to be immune to the failed indoctrination of the BritNat Propagandists.

      So in short, I increasingly don’t give a flying fk what the SNP is going to say or do, because the opportunity to say or do it has been an open window of opportunity ever since the Brexit result emerged, but that window of opportunity is soon closing. The SNP can spin that however it likes, hopefully I’ll be immune to that bullshit too, but unfortunately that leaves my country with the material dilemma that if the elected Government will ply every excuse in the book to avoid defending Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty, then how do we fill that critical void in this time of emergency with a delegation similar in form to the 6 Parliamentarians who brought a successful case before the ECJ and established immediate precedence for Scots Law and Constitutional hierarchy?

      Maybe instead of YES evolving into a pro-Indy running mate political Party, maybe we can be less ambitious, and hope instead that YES can come together and sponsor a group of Constitutionally savvy representatives who can follow the trail already blazed to the ECJ by the Super 6, and secure for Scotland a legally binding judgement which creates the Constitutional Backstop whereby any Brexit which is contrary to declared will of the Sovereign Scottish people is ultra vires.

      No longer are we paralysed by the SNP bemoaning the fact they don’t have a majority to do anything when they do, but instead to derail the Westminster Express Train which purports to have a majority and mandate which it actually doesn’t. The sovereign people of Scotland rejected Brexit.

      That democratic edict is sovereign. Westminster’s Brexit, and Westminster’s Article 50 are thus ultra vires and not competent in law.

    412. Luigi says:

      Folks, some of you may not be aware of a long-tested intel dark arts technique, frequently used on sites like WoS, in order to crush real opinions, demonise the site, and discourage new visitors. It’s known in the trade as “Consensus Cracking” and usually involves 2-3 trolls working together to create the impression of negative consensus. They only target specific threads considered to be threatening enough to the Brtish Establishment. Here is how is usually goes:

      1. Troll 1 posts a highly disagreeable comment, challenging (or ignoring) the current topic.

      2. Troll 2 responds with bad-tempered, foul-mouthed response.

      3. Troll 3 contributes in a slightly nicer way, but still disagrees with the view.

      4. 4. Rinse and repeat.

      The technique may be varied from time t time, but essentially boils down to a covert attempt to rubbish real arguments and observations, lower the tone of the debate to a schoolboy swearing match and (most importantly) to scare away new visitors who may otherwise engage and gradually challenge their own belief systems.

      Some of the veteran wingers wised up to these dirty little tricks long ago, but new people are visiting the WoS site all the time and are easily turned off. It is important therefore that we don’t get sucked into tit-for-tat arguments and verbal abuse, which is exactly the dark intention. Of course, even some real posters occasionally take the bait and do the bots heavy lifting for them. They can be reverse-trolled affectively (some genuine posters are brilliant at it), as long as the conversation stays civil.

      Bottom line – look for evidence of collusion. Useful idiots often post in isolation, but the real ops rarely do.

    413. Stravaiger says:

      I’ve not knowingly met any other Wingers but I was at on the Bannockburn and Edinburgh marches in 2018. If you noticed a bloke in a kilt with two wee black dugs wearing Saltires, that was me.

    414. Shinty says:

      Luigi – well said.

    415. Ken500 says:

      It is actually true. NHS. They are restoring the cuts that were being implemented in the English NHS. It is not increased funding they are just not implementing the cuts. A cut of £20Billion (so called saving – a Clegg/Cameron joke) from 2015 to 2020. They have already had to put in £2Billion to try and sort out the mess. The money is now going back in till 2022. It is not an increase but a restoration of the money which was being cut. More propaganda as SKY does not report accurately. The only thing they get right is the time.

      The Scottish SNP Gov has already made these changes in their budget, mitigating these cuts, increased SNHS spending,funded social care, more integrated services. MUP Although the unionists Councils are not committing as much as they should be to social care, proper drink/drug facilities. Instead borrowing and spending on groteque projects of no value. Same as the unionist Westminster Gov (getting into debt) The unionist Parties are pathetic managers. They can’t count or real a balance sheet.

      These so called changes have already been implemented in Scotland. The Scottish Gov had to take money from other sources/budget because Westminster cut the NHS budget (UK) These increases should increase the SNHS budget Scotland should get proportionately more. Barnett Formula. The Scottish Gov will be watching them like a hawk. It could be just a ploy to increase SNHS funding but cutting somewhere else.

      Westminster policy is making Scotland pay for things it does not need in the rest of the UK. With the result Scotland does not have the funds to pay for things needed in Scotland, ie lack of investment in Scotland but borrowing to invest in grutesque orihects in the rest of the UK. Scotland has to pay debt repayments on borrowings not borrowed or spent in Scotland milking Scottish resources to fund London S/E. Scotland has to pay off a proportion of these loans. Not borrowed or spent in Scotland. The Barnett Formula is a crooked way to deprive Scotland of it’s rightful funds. Tax revenues raised in Scotland go to pay for grotesque monstrosities of no value in thevret of the UK. While the Scottish Budget is cut. Austerity – totally unnecessary – it costs more, Hss cut the Scottish budget block grant,

      Not only has the Scottish Gov already implemented these SNHS changes and incressed the SNHS budget but MUP will help pay for it. Improving the Scottish budget and healthcare. The unionist Councils are letting down the Scottish economy by borrowing and spending on groteque projects of no value – with no mandate. Aided by the Greens. ( Westminster unionists do the same) .Instead of spending the money allocated on proper essential services.

      Unionist Parties can’t count or read a balance sheet. They borrow and spend like there is no tomorrow. Getting into debt and ruining the UK economy. Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Sanctioning and killing people at home and away. They have ruined the world economy consistently. Brexit will do the same. An expensive catastrophe. It will cause a world recession and hardship. The total Unionist imbeciles at Westminster. Unbelievable.

    416. Ken500 says:

      Rev Stu is extremely busy but keeps the trolls at bay. That is why the site is so successful. They have not ruined it (yet). They have ruined nearly all other sites with the management collusion. Unionist paper editors. BBC etc, controlled by Westminster. The Press illegally owned by non Dom tax evaders because of Westminster unionist illegality and criminal activities.

      Without a free and fair Press there is no democracy.

    417. Colin Alexander says:

      Devolution: UK Parliament rule, where the colonials administer some public services on behalf of the British Empire and the colonials take the blame when UK Parliament imposes cuts to funding. The political class colonials get jobs for life, generous perks and pensions and they suppress the colonials’ ability for real democracy and real sovereignty.

      So, we have the SNP pretending we have a Scottish Govt so that the Scottish NHS is safe from privatisation by voting SNP. The truth is that, the Continuity Bill / EU Withdrawal Bill power grab of devolved powers by the unelected House of Lords demonstrates devolution is nothing more than a means to suppress real democracy.

      The unelected Lords could privatise the Scottish NHS any time they wanted to because UK Parliament – including unelected Lords- rule over the democratically elected MSPs.

      Devolution = No real democracy for Scotland; we are treated as a colony.

    418. Graeme says:

      “So, we have the SNP pretending we have a Scottish Govt so that the Scottish NHS is safe from privatisation by voting SNP.”

      —————————————————————So who do you suggest we vote for Colin ?

    419. Ken500 says:

      Some trolls on the Herald constantly quote a heap of rubbish Groundhog Day have ruined the website. Boring repetitive nonsense. People gave in on it long ago. The Herald going down the tubes, No one bothers with it anymore. Allowing trolls to ruin their website for clickbait. To try and push up advertising revenues. The exact opposite happens. Declining readership. They can’t count or read a balance sheet, Poor management.

      Ie Education claiming other students are taking Scottish places. They pay fees £9000 (not total cost but contribution. Overseas foreign students pay the full whack. EU students are reciprocated. It helps maintain high standards in Scittish Education system. The envy of the world. They just do not get the point at all. How ignorant can they be. Blinkered. They can’t see the woods for the trees. Absolutely stupid. Ignorant as can be. The Herald trolls. More utter rubbish. Multiply it to all unionist publications. Trying to keep control. Ruinig their industry. No one will buy the rubbish any more.

    420. Nana says:

      Serious stuff here
      How an alleged British spy, Simon Bracey-Lane, a fellow of the Institute for Statecraft’s “Integrity Initiative”, infiltrated Bernie Sanders’s 2016 presidential campaign.

      Erin Gallagher says
      I spent the past 2 days reading this 40 page request for funding for “Phase 2” of the Integrity Initiative. This is the most dystopian thing I’ve ever heard of. Journalists need to read this whole document closely because y’all are being targeted.

    421. Petra says:

      @ Luigi at 7:22am …… “Collusion.”….

      Spot on Luigi. Clear to see on here on a daily basis.


      @ Breeks at 7:13am ….. “SNP Baaad.”….

      All we need, more so what Nicola Sturgeon needs, is a majority of sovereign Scots to show signs of supporting them / Independence. What you’re doing, constantly on here Breeks, is putting people off of supporting the SNP. How is that helping the Independence cause? And do you really think that Nicola Sturgeon, with her many experts, hasn’t looked at all credible options over time? That she hasn’t discussed the Independence issues with key UN and EU personnel who are “constitutionally savvy?” Discussed the fact that 62% of Scots voted to remain in the EU with the dilemma being that a percentage of them want to remain in the Union? At the end of the day Breeks you are NOT a Constitutional expert nor do you have any idea of what she knows and what she’s been / is doing. If you really want Scotland to become Independent it’s high time that you stopped slagging her / the SNP off and showed some sign of having faith in her. You know actually doing everything in your power to get the stats up instead of vice versa.

    422. Nana says:

      A Scottish Gov consultation

      140+ factual, fully-sourced examples of the impact Brexit is already having on the UK. Jobs going, investment drying up, companies moving assets to the EU, or redomiciling. And all happening as Government burns through £billions chasing a no deal Brexit.

    423. Nana says:

      Adonis says
      My civil service friends are telling me alarming stories about other contracts as bad as Grayling’s ferries. Large amounts of the £4bn for ‘no deal’ preparations are going on ‘dodgy, panicky & frankly disgraceful’ expenditures, according to an official. Watch this space

    424. Robert Kerr says:

      For what its worth I was at the first Counting House meet (with the dodgy fire alarm!) Pictured and interviewed on stream with Gavin Barrie from Troon. Met I B ,T Jenny and more.

      Met up at the Caesar!nach but missed the Rev there. Marched to Calton Hill and met him there along with Dr Morag Kerr and Major Bloodnok. Photographed holding the Wings Banner . Lull in my activities till Edinburgh AUOB march.

      Time to start again. The Call to Arms shall be soon.

    425. Robert Kerr says:

      Caesar!nach is a public house in Edinburgh of course.

      You all know it

    426. Ken500 says:

      The EU was formed after the 11WW to stop wars and starvation in Europe. Saving money. In that it has been spectacularly successful.

      The UK union has been a disaster. Since 1928 and before. Illegal wars, financial fraud tax evasion. Breaking International Law with impunity wasting money, public funding like there is no tomotrow. Consistently badly, poorly managed by unionists. Telling lies and committing fraud. Keeping it secret under the Official Secrets Act. Illegally. A collosal abuse of power. In order to line their own pockets. Impoverishing everyone else. Breaking the ministerial code with impunity. Not being held to account. Most of them should be in jail.

      Brexit is nothing to do with migration, or population numbers or control. These Tories have been at it since the UK voted to join. For forty years. ie When the population was lower. De Gaulle NON.

      The usual suspects Tories – Cash, Farague, Redwood, Duncan Smith, Hague etc. They have been trying to get the UK out of the EU Union for over thirty years as soon as people voted to join it. While lining their pockets with taxpayers money. A force for evil. Self harming.

      The EU a force for good. Stopping wars and starvation. Compassionate. Saving money. The UK a force for complete, time wasting money of poor management. Wasting money, impoverishing and killing people.

    427. Abulhaq says:

      Faith in Sturgeon ie blind faith is a step too far for many. She’s considered good at the fancy political foot work but poor on long term strategic thinking. Her ‘court’ or clique is effectively stiffling the imaginative life out of the SNP, it has become her thing which she models in her own particular socio-political image. Her ‘image’ needs to be challenged. The SNP is showing signs of old Labour, quasi stalinism regarding power and influence who has the right to it. Frankly, it has become a pedestrian party of dull and boring apparatchiks.
      The following makes some valid observations on her style.

    428. Breeks says:

      “What you’re doing, constantly on here Breeks, is putting people off of supporting the SNP.”

      You flatter me Petra, but I think you’ll find it’s the SNP putting people off supporting the SNP.

      But hey, keep it up for 81 more days and what the fk will it matter?

    429. Colin Alexander says:

      Graeme asked:

      “So who do you suggest we vote for Colin ?” I hope it won’t come to that.

      The next vote should be independence in indyref2, either via the devolution parliament or (if blocked under the UK Parliament) following a declaration that UK Parliament no longer represents Scotland’s sovereignty, as the Scottish Parliament now represents Scottish sovereignty.

      So, the Scottish Parliament can then hold an indyref on full independence as it’s no longer subject to the “UK Parliament is sovereign” UK Supreme Court ruling. Whether full independence is chosen or not, the current Union / devolution sham would have been rejected by the sovereign people.

      If the FM fails to call and win an indyref2 she and her Sturgeon acolytes will be out of power and the on-bended-knee-devolution-first, possible-indyref-later policy, will be binned.

      But hopefully we won’t have to vote again for an SNP party that aspires to administer colonialism on behalf of UK Parliament. Hopefully, the SNP will finally lead Scotland to democratic freedom.

    430. Dorothy Devine says:

      Nana thanks for the links , I look forward to Lord Adonis telling us how much this fiasco has cost so far and how much he predicts it will cost when it actually reaches fruition. Not to mention how much oil money will be used to dig the UK out of a hole again – not the ordinary folk obviously just those and such as those.

      Ian B, Ronnie A and Dave McEH, I look forward to viewing those erudite titles!

      Proud Cybernat , I was at the first Counting House meet , the one with the fire alarm where I met WGD , Ronnie , Ian B but I’m sure he doesn’t remember , a lad form Dundee who wasn’t BDTT! and Kinnivie – questionable spelling!

      Since then I have met Smallaxe and Sybil , Sam ,BDTT, Cactus and many others at Ronnie’s Wings Stall but like someone else has mentioned my brain leaks information nowadays – names being number one !

    431. Gary45% says:

      Just had the misfortune to listening to Good Morning Shortbread. Flicking through channels I heard the start of Nicola’s interrogation.
      A new year, Radio Shortbread “GROUNDHOG DAY” same old, same old.

    432. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Breeks at 9.35

      Rarely read your over long posts but this short one caught my eye.

      “You flatter me Petra, but I think you’ll find it’s the SNP putting people off supporting the SNP.”

      That’ll be why the SNP membership is at 125,000 then and why it is pulling further and further away from its pathetic rivals in all polls.

    433. Naina Tal says:

      Daisy Walker: I sang your parody of Lyle Lovett’s song at a session yesterday. Created lots of interest in the subject but also in WOS. Thank you for writing it!!!

    434. Nana says:

      A wee video on the BBC/media/Slab collaboration this morning

      No doubt the burd and sausage fingers will make a drama out of it!

    435. Robert Peffers says:

      @mac says: 6 January, 2019 at 11:21 pm:

      ” … No Deal Brexit will mean the birth of Scotland and the death of the detested English.”

      Oh! Aye! Whit, “detested English”, micht they be, mac?

      The wee wife what, “Walks the Streets o London”, carrying her home it twa carrier bags:-

      or the wee fat lairdie FFoulks in the hoose o Lairds wha sits amang the Inglis lairdies?

      Genuine Wingers do not detest the English, nor any other nationality, creed or colour of skin. Our quarrel is only with the Westminster Establishment and that is far larger than the Westminster Parliamentarians and there are examples of them to be found in every corner of the, so called, United Kingdom.

      BTW: You are a great advert for what Wingers do detest, mac.

    436. Nana says:

      Well I thought I was done but this is worth a look

      Right. First day back after Christmas in this perfectly normal country and I’m off to Ramsgate to sketch a Potemkin traffic jam up the A299 at dawn.

      and for the replies see here

    437. Breeks says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:
      7 January, 2019 at 9:50 am
      Breeks at 9.35

      Rarely read your over long posts but this short one caught my eye.

      “You flatter me Petra, but I think you’ll find it’s the SNP putting people off supporting the SNP.”

      That’ll be why the SNP membership is at 125,000 then and why it is pulling further and further away from its pathetic rivals in all polls.

      Yeah. You’re absolutely right. Silly me. Everything is fine.

    438. Lenny Hartley says:

      Thepnr, a friend who is a member of the SRP posted on fb the other day a copy of a letter in the Times! from a spokesperson of the Communist Party of the UK backing Brexi

    439. Breeks says:

      Interesting priorities there Dave,

      Can I ask all the people who want Scotland to stay in Europe to stand over here please, and all the people who want the SNP to have over 125,000 members stand over there please…

      See I don’t give a fuck if there’s only one of me, because I’m stood in the right place where I belong.

    440. Naina Tal says:

      In case you missed it, I should have said Daisy’s song was posted on this thread on 5th January at 1.28

    441. Ken500 says:

      Paul Hutcheon is an idiot. So stupid he can’t compute a few facts. He just makes them up. Five minutes on the internet can repute the claims. Beyond stupid. Just a liar of complete nonsense. Churning out easily reputed rubbish daily. Groundhog Day. Nicola is a leader but their are many members and supporters, increasing daily. Nicola represents the SNP and the votes but there a many able members in the Party. They are sick if Westminster total butter and compketcomplete incompetence killing people. Hutcheon is not. A useless tool of incompetence. Losing readers quicker than a sieve loses water.

    442. Ken500 says:

      A non reply to two e-mails certainly made a lasting impression. Let it go. Let it go. Let it go. It would feel better. Stop self harming.

    443. Dorothy Devine says:

      Lenny Hartley, can you tell me what kind of idiocy is infecting the Arran ferry ? Something about limiting passengers as they have a problem with lifeboats.

      I am playing early birthday postie on Friday and am a bit anxious as to my chances of boarding the 3.15 on Friday and the 1.50 on Saturday.

    444. manandboy says:

      Some more tired sniping at the SNP, this time from Lesley Riddoch in the Scotsman. Lesley is in danger of ostracising herself from the mainstream Indy movement, for the sake of another cheque from Johnstone Press. Beginning to look like Jim Sillars who has sold his soul to the Unionists just to make a few bob.

    445. Dan Huil says:

      May pleads to the EU to help her brexit plan?!

      She probably thinks the EU is duty bound to help the xenophobic britnats she represents.

      Britnat arrogance and ignorance cries out pitifully from the bottom of the rabbit hole.

    446. Robert Peffers says:

      @mac says: 7 January, 2019 at 5:32 am:

      ” … My fellow Wingers, our day of destiny is approaching.”

      You are no fellow Winger of mine, mac. I believe I have made that abundantly clear.

    447. Capella says:

      @ Liz g, Sarah, SC – If anyone contacts Stu about certain racist posts in WoS then please add my name to the list. Racism is the enemy of civic nationalism.

      The front page of the Sunday Herald is an illustration of the type smear the Unionists are using against the SNP. They’d like to make it stick. How long before they illustrate pictures of Nicola Sturgeon with rats and cockroaches? Despicable.

    448. mac says:

      Robert Puffer

      You are a right little bag of wind today Mr Puffer.

      Love thy fellow man Mr Puffer (Unless he is English of course, lol).

    449. Ghillie says:

      Robert Peffers, but I know you are a fellow Winger of mine =)

    450. Hackalumpoff says:

      Listening to James O’Brien on LBC at 10:25 replying to a Scottish caller on Brexit, James said “ Scotland should RUN FOR THE HILLS”

    451. Dr Jim says:

      “When the terms of Brexit become clear” (Nicola Sturgeon)

      What’s so difficult to understand about that statement that all the troll types and moaners are griping about
      It’s not going to happen by each complainers individual timetable, it’s going to happen when the party of government says it is because they know more than us *simples*

      So 4pm this afternoon or a week on Wenesthursday if it’s not raining is definitely out

      Trolling or moaning won’t make it so and each time anyone does it actually strengthens the very reason for Independence because Scotland is forced to wait on decisions being taken by people in another country we didn’t elect, plus it should be remembered the involvement of the DUP a Northern Irish party who we can’t vote for, or against

      We live in a country subject to the whims of a political party who don’t believe dinosaurs were real and it’s all a big scientific hoax and the Holocaust was a bit over exaggerated and they believe it’s their legitimate right to spit on folk who have a religion that in essence is almost exactly the same as their own

      If that in itself isn’t even one valid reason for Independence from this lunacy then there’s something far wrong with peoples heads

    452. Lenny Hartley says:

      Sorry Dorothy, the incompetance of Cal Mac is beyond any rational understanding. However think there are two boats on whilst the Cally Isles is away for annual refit and if rumours true to get the door appertures enlarged because the idiots at Cal – Mac did not design the new superduper passenger access system to fit the main boat on the run which means that even people of average hight have to stoop to get off the boat without banging their heid at certain tide states. Yes those idiots designed a system but did not take into account that the docked ship went up and down relative to the pier , presumably due to the newly discovered Tides.
      The thought that some people actually have considered that Cal-Mac are fit to run our Railways is unbeleivable.
      Anyways as you say the Isle of Arran ferry is currently only taking limited passengers due to technical issues with the lifeboats, cars and their passengers are getting priority boarding so if lots of cars then limited foot passengers are getting onboard. The Hebridean Isles which I think is doing most of the scheduled runs is ok.
      In my criticism above of Cal-Mac I absolve the staff who do a sterling job , often under extreme pressure due to the incompetance of the Company Management.

    453. Ken500 says:

      Richards Leonard and the unionists should stop telling lies. Liars always get found out.

      The lying unionist journalists should stop telling lies ruining their industry telling lies. No one is buying into it. Then losing their ‘jobs’. Then going working for unionist Parties telling liars. Wasting public money. Self harming. Rather than doing something useful. Liars always get found out.

    454. Ghillie says:

      Breeks, the SNP do not sit on their hands as the clock runs down.

      How daft.

      The SNP have nerves of steel.

      Watch and learn.

    455. Lenny Hartley says:

      Dorothy , just reread my post apart from the typo’s and bad grammer, it reads as if the Isle of Arran ferry is having issues, it should be the ship called the Isle of Arran is having problems the other ship on the Run the Hebridean isles is fine (for the moment, this is frm Cal Mac app,
      Due to continuing adverse weather, the following sailings are cancelled:

      Departing Ardrossan: 08:20, 0945, 1230, 1520, 1640 & 1800.

      Departing Brodick: 07:00, 08:20, 0945, 1105, 1355 & 1640.

      A review will be made at 17:00 regarding further sailings.

      Due to a technical issue with MV Isle of Arran’s lifeboats, we will be operating on a reduced passenger capacity until further notice.

      We will be able to ship booked cars and commercial vehicles, thereafter we will only be able to accommodate customers on a first come first served basis until we have reached our maximum passenger capacity. Unquote
      If your travelling to Ardrossan by train bear in mind engineering works at paisley is causing delays so you might need to get an earlier train than normal.

    456. mac says:

      Rev Stu should have a statue of himself placed in Freedom Sq in Glasgow.

      Take away all those statues of Englishmen and reminders of their Empire.

      You do a fantastic job Mr Campbell,,,,,keep up the good work sir.

    457. Ken500 says:

      The few rail protestors will be being paid by the Labour Party. They have got such few supporters/ members in Scotland they have to pay them. (With public monies). They even employ actors. Ridiculous.

    458. Ken500 says:

      Unelected Lesley Riddoch (Greens) ridiculous. They cut off their nose to spite their face. In collusion with their unionist mates. A vacant coupon for every two face. They talk the talk but do not walk the walk. There arguments are incomprehensible. Telling lies. Liars always get found out. The most unpopular with the most unpopular policies. No wonder. A pressure group with no responsibility. They can spin a yarn. PR. The stuff they come away with. Questionable?

    459. galamcennalath says:

      manandboy says:

      sniping at the SNP, this time from Lesley Riddoch in the Scotsman

      I really don’t have the same bad vibes about Lesley’s piece. It explores different scenarios, as a great many people are doing right now. How things pan out over the next few weeks might lead to totally different responses being needed from the SNP/SG. And I agree with Lesley that the SNP are not pushing the case for Indy sufficiently.

      I have faith that Nicola does have various plans and responses to different WM outcomes. I am a member and activist who has pinned my colours to the SNP. Lesley hasn’t. She, like WGD and others, has kept distance from the SNP.

      Recently I heard Lesley speak and she expressed many views on Scotland and the road to Indy. She made one very valid point which I think explains an awful lot of politics. The UK’s dreadful FPTP system encourages large broad church parties. People have to group together in very large parties covering a wide range of views to achieve that critical mass which can ‘beat’ the FPTP system.

      UK Tories and Labour have a wide range of individuals with many view points and often, as Lesley put it, “hate each other’s guts” … and that’s within parties! We can all see the results of this by the relentless power struggles within Labour which make it unelectable, the Tories have been good at hiding it … until Brexit.

      As Lesley pointed out, the SNP too is, by necessity, a very broad church. The range of views is wide. Ideas on where how to move forward mixed. Compromise and ‘don’t scare the horses’ behaviour is everywhere.

      In a real country with real politics and a real parliament there would be a dozen parties and compromise and consensus should be thrashed out in the correct place, which is Parliament. The UK attempts to have this debate within parties. THAT is one of the many flaws in the UK politics.

      But we are where we are. The SNP is the only mechanism through which Indy will be achieved. However, in this phoney war, everyone’s nerves and patience is being tested.

      And I still think Lesley Riddoch should lead YES2 so that independence is seen to be much more than the SNP.

    460. Proud Cybernat says:

      Thanks to everyone who responded to my wee question last night. Quite a sizeable number of regular posters have been eyeballed by at least one other Winger.

      There is, however, a sizeable list of well known or current posters that have not (as yet) been eye-balled by other Wingers although I am sure some in the list (below) most likely have. So, can you help me cut down this list of well-known/current WoS posters. So, if any of you have eye-balled any WoS posters (below) can you let me know and I will remove them from this ‘non eye-balled’ list. By the end of this I hope to achieve a very short list of current WoS posters who no one has ever eye-balled.


      Abroath1320, Abulhaq, Ahundredthidiot, Albert Herring, Aldo, Alexicon, AndyMcKangry, Ann Forbes, Anne Marie mcnulty, Auld Rock, Barbara Nairn, ben Madigan, Bill McDermott, Bill, Bob Mack, Bobp, Breeks, Brotyboy, carjamtic, cirsium, Clootie, CmonIndy, Cod, Colin Alexander, Cubby, dakk, Dan Huil, Dave McEwan Hill, David Gray, David P, Davie Oga, Davy S, defo, defo, Den Cairns, Dorothy Devine, Doug, Douglas, Dr Jim, Effijy, Elmac, Essexexile, Fairliered, Folding Bike, frogesque, galamcennalath, Gary45%, Geeo, GFaetheblock, Golfnut, Graeme, Hamish 100, Harry mcaye, heidtracker, Helena Brown, Iain, Ian Mackay, Ian McCubbin, INDEPENDENT, James Barr Gardner, Jason Smoothpiece, jfngw, jimnarlene, Jockmcx, John Alexander Ferguson, John King, John Lockhart, Jon Drummond, Josef Ó Luain, Ken500, Kevin Brown, Lanarkist, Legerwood, Les Wilson, Liam, Lochside, Luigi, Mac, manandboy, Maria F, Martin, McBoxheid, Merkin Scot, Morgatron, mr thms, msean, mumsyhugs, Muscleguy, Naina Tal, One_Scot, orri, Petra, Puzzled Puss, Q, Republicofscotland, Richard Smith, Rob Outram, Robert Peffers, robertknight , Rock, Sassenach, Scot Finlayson, Scottish Skier, Sensible Dave, Sharny Dubs, Shinty, shiregirl, Shrodingers Cat, Shug, Simon Curran, Sinky, starlaw , stewartb, Stravaiger, Street Andrew, Tackety Beets, Tam fae somewhere, Tatu3, Terence callachan, The Tree of Liberty, Tinto Chil, Tom Busza, twathater, Valerie, Weechid, winifred mccartney, wull2

    461. Colin Alexander says:

      @ Breeks

      The EU Referendum Bill had its first reading on 28/05/2015.

      The SNP had won 56 of 59 MPs in the GE of 7/05/2015 GE.

      The SNP 2015 manifesto said:

      “Oppose UK withdrawal from the EU and will propose that in any future referendum there should be a double majority requirement. Each of the four constituent nations of the UK would have to vote for withdrawal before the UK as a whole could leave the European Union”.

      That could and should have been an uncrossable red line of Scotland’s sovereignty with almost all Scotland’s MPs being pulled out of UK Parliament if the above conditions were not put in the EU-Ref Bill.

      UK Parliament was allowed to make it one person one vote, treating the UK as a unitary state, where UK means England has 84% of the votes. The SNP accepted Scotland’s EU exit, after Scotland voted Remain.

      Almost FOUR YEARS AGO, the SNP could have asserted Scotland’s sovereignty with 56 out of 59 MPs and a democratic mandate to do so.

      Instead it was the SNP off to the House of Lords to beg that Scottish democracy be respected by the unelected after the Commons didn’t regard Scotland as worthy of a minute of its time. UK Colonialism in operation, with the cooperation of the SNP.

      The SNP could’ve and should’ve prevented Scotland’s exit from the EU years ago by asserting Scotland’s sovereignty via the GE democratic mandate in 2015. They chose not to. They won’t now.

    462. Graeme says:

      @ Proud Cybernat

      Sorry if this is a stupid question but what does “eyeballed” mean I notice I’m on the list

      Is that bad ?

    463. Dorothy Devine says:

      Lenny , thanks for all the information.

      I agree that the new pier leaves much to be desired on many fronts.

      Once upon a day you could shout ‘Haud oan!” as you belted up the short pier and gasped your last but on board. Not something one can do nowadays and anyone with mobility problems but not confined to wheelchairs , is on a hiding to nothing with that tedious tube.

      One would have thought that some sea worthy chap or chapesse could have foreseen tidal difficulties and made appropriate calculations.

      But the staff are great , friendly and helpful.

    464. Dr Jim says:

      @Proud Cybernat 11.12am

      What’s the purpose of this?

    465. DerekM says:

      haha i see the Labour party are doing one of their rent a mob of ordinary mothers and concerned citizens and not affiliated labour members photo shoot protests all backed up by the compliant MSM.

      Hmmm sorry Richard old boy but that one is sooo 2014 you should ask big spud murphy if it worked.

      Whats next Dicky hmmm hit with an egg maybe on an irn bru crate tour wahahaha.

    466. Lenny Hartley says:

      galamcennalath @11:10 very well said, agree totally, althoughhave not read the article in question but your analysis is spot on.

    467. Lenny Hartley says:

      Dorothy, rethe New Pier is not only the Passenger Access Facility thats a problem
      The placement of the Pier is badly designed, now instead of sailings being cancelled due to South Westerly’s , due to the placement of the Pier we have the worst off both worlds and now have cancellations with Easterly breezes. Off course This was raised with Cal-Mac during the design process by Locals but they just ignored us, thry could not run a piss up in a brewery.

    468. manandboy says:

      With a mere 11 weeks to go before the Withdrawal Agreement takes legal effect, the pressure on the 2 main Unionist parties, Labour and Conservative, will become unbearable and then, something will have to give.

      At the moment the self-preservation of the Establishment, the Tory Party and the Government are top of Theresa May’s to-do list. In the next few weeks, one of these will collapse under the weight of Brexit.

      As for Labour, they too are caught in the same Brexit trap, and, like the Tory Government, have no way of escaping. The tide of voter sentiment now flows toward the EU but both May and Corbyn are determined to leave, though for slightly different reasons obviously.

      Soon, the bridge between the electorate and the political establishment will collapse as voter trust crumbles at the realisation that neither Labour nor Tory cares a jot about them, and that the English Establishment cares even less.

      Politics in the UK started out as representing and serving the people, then it became a career and making some money, but now it’s about making a fortune big enough to span generations, the true Establishment way, carefree living with wealth and power guaranteed.

      But this self-preservation society looks very much like it is about to come crashing down.

      Just don’t expect to see it reported honestly by the BBC.

    469. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Proud Cybernat.

      Some I’ve met…
      John King, Lanarkist, Shrodingers Cat. There will be more… I met Scottish Skier’s mum and dad at the Edinburgh get-together at the top of Leith Walk in 2014. He posts regularly at Scot Goes Pop! Terence Callachan’s wife works in the same place as me.

    470. Proud Cybernat says:

      “eye-balled” simply means you have met the individual in person.

      Dr Jim – in my opinion (and others have recently expressed the same) WoS is being attacked by Establishment plants (paid shills, 77th – whatever you wish to call them). These individuals operate in the shadows and are unlikely to ever want to be publicly identified (eye-balled). While not full-proof, I figured if we end up with a very short list of WoS posters that not a single Winger has ever seen, not even once, then we will be able to close in on and hopefully identify the suspect shill accounts posting here.

      I know it’s not full-proof (some people can’t get out for whatever reason to meet others & some simply don’t like to do so). That aside, our instinct often draws us to anti-indy posters, false flaggers, concern trolls and so on – chances are, if you suspect a poster of being such then they will more than likely have never been eye-balled by any Winger and their handle will appear on my final list.

      At least, that’s the idea.

    471. Dr Jim says:

      Richard Leonard is one of the most pathetic excuses for a politician and a man, a throwback to when Labour instigated trouble then complained about the results of that trouble just so they could get elected and keep doing the same things the previous Tory party did in the first place, and he’s still doing it

      A privately educated Pocklington prep scoolboy who then moved to Scotland for a nice wee free Uni education but still retains his Yorkshire accent and wears it as a badge of honour to prove he’s an ordinary guy to the flat cap pigeon fanciers he hopes to appeal to

      He’s not y’now

    472. Gerry says:

      @proud cybernat

      What about a live chatroom with audio and text, Would that not be an idea worth exploring ?

    473. Iain mhor says:

      @Ken500 on religion; I note the Church in England is remarkably silent of late.
      Of course it may have nothing to do with being agin Catholic Europe on point of doctrine and therefore coincidentally aligned with current political anti-eu stances.
      Anglicanism being generally Catholic-Lite, I always found the whole anti-papacy thing odd. Not that I care for organised religion in any form – so much voodoo to me – but ‘whatever gets you through the night’
      The Lords Spiritual appear quite content with the conveyor belt of Political adherents and Prime Ministers preaching their own vision of Christian austerity and feel no need to upbraid them on points of doctrine. Perhaps the Lords view the current ideology of persecution of the poor and needy as some form of flagellate penance to cleanse and purge the nation for its own good. Or perhaps there is some money in it for them…Why not both?

      I also note that there is very little religious presence from Scotland in the House of Lords. The Church of Scotland, if I recall, has no presence and neither does the Catholic church. There may be a few Scots clerics plying their trade down there, but I profess my ignorance on that matter.
      It has to be said even then, I perceive a general political silence around social deprivation from the Kirks in Scotland – possibly to retain an apolitical stance, but it never really stopped them in past history, if anything the Kirk was the seat of politics (Presbytarian Kirk anyone?) I would have thought a good bit of self righteous lectern bashing and fire and brimstone would be totally up their street. A more cynical person may conclude the Kirk in general is still political and currently finds things to be “Just Fine”
      Of course desperation, poverty and the Kirk are synonymous; so in times of declining attendence perhaps a potential increase of millions of new adherents is not such a terribly bad thing after all.
      Ends sniders.

    474. Albert Herring says:

      Huvnae been at any Wings gatherings, but been on loads o marches and BBC protests. A’m the baldy guy wi the Saltire.

    475. Graeme says:

      Proud Cybernat

      So it’s a list of people who post frequently or infrequently whose authenticity can’t be verified ?

    476. Tom Busza says:

      mac 11.00 am

      …Freedom Sq in Glasgow.

      Take away all those statues of Englishmen and reminders of their Empire.

      I presume you mean George Sq.

      12 statues there plus 1 cenotaph.

      Of these, only representations of English people are Queen Victoria and Sir Robert Peel. Prince Albert was, of course German. Gladstone, although born in Liverpool, was of Scottish parents.

      So, where are you going with your anglophobic rhetoric? Sentiments such as yours really do give Scotland and its people a very bad name, fuelling the Unionists’ anti-Scotland hysteria.

    477. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Last month, annoyed at the apparent lack of movement by the SNP on Indyref2, I dropped Nicola Sturgeon a wee note, inviting her to move things along.

      I have now received a reply from Heather Wolfe, “Operations Executive” from the SNP, who wrote:

      “Thank you for taking the time to contact Nicola Sturgeon. I have been asked to respond on her behalf as your enquiry relates to party matters.

      We completely understand your frustration. The SNP is strongly committed to giving Scotland a choice on our future at the end of the Brexit process. The Scottish Government will not introduce legislation for an independence referendum immediately. At the end of Brexit negotiations the Scottish Government will set out its judgment on the best way forward, and on the precise time scale of the people of Scotland having a choice on our future.

      The next referendum must aim to carry a firm majority of voters with us, and not simply those who are already believers. While no one will take the support of independence-minded people for granted, what we certainly can’t take for granted is that the 55% who were not persuaded in 2014 have simply changed their minds. It is up to all of us to build that case of persuasion prior to another referendum taking place.

      Kind regards


      At least, there is a plan. My worry, however, is the manner in which May and the Tories are kicking the can down the road, to the extent we might be dragged out of the EU and need to re-apply. I sincerely hope the SNP is looking at keeping us in a holding pen after 29 March, because, we are running rapidly out of time, if we want to retain EU membership.

    478. Tom Busza says:

      Proud Cybernat 11.14 am

      I must admit that no-one on WoS has ever met me, nor I them. I’ve only been on WoS since the FB suspension.

      Staying in the capital of the Highlands I don’t get the chance to travel to Glasgow or Edinburgh.

    479. Frank Gillougley says:

      Dear Proud Cybernat,

      Yes, I can see where you are going with this fairly hermless exercise, but how would you address the criticism that this manufactured list would be in effect and possibly perceived as a blacklist?

      I am an occasional poster since WoS started, and an SNP member, but have a strong aversion to belonging to any notion of a ‘club’ as anonymity chimes with my relatively ‘anarchistic’ ways.

      I would dread to think that to be thought of as a troll for expressing any non-conforming opinion would deter me and potentially others from posting.

      Is this not a fair point?

    480. Tatu3 says:

      Well nobody will have “eyeballed” me as I don’t live in Scotland, and haven’t done for many years.
      That does NOT make me any less a supporter of Scotland regaining her independence.
      I was born in Scotland and grew up there and started my working life there. My parents, grandparents and great grandparents were all Scottish. My children were born in Scotland.
      I have always been a supporter of Independence and I am a member of the SNP. Just life circumstances mean I don’t actually live there.
      And I think it is very sad that someone on here is thinking along the terms that if you’ve not been eyeballed then you should be considered being “anti-indy posters, false flaggers, concern trolls and so on”

    481. Proud cybernat maybe it would help if all posters were made to use their real names instead of non de plumes before being allowed to post on this site of course that would include you ???

    482. galamcennalath says:

      Proud Cybernat says:

      a very short list of current WoS posters who no one has ever eye-balled

      Well, although I am certain paths have crossed, I have never had the pleasure of openly meeting other Wingers. So, for the moment, I’m still on the not quite so short list.

      Travelling into city centre pubs isn’t really ‘my thing’. And I’ve never made a march yet.

      However, I would be keen to meet other wingers. With the upcoming grand battle, some real world ‘networking’ is needed.

    483. Fairliered says:

      Hi Proud Cybernat
      I was at the first Wings get together at the Counting House, but haven’t been to any since. I remember meeting Ian Brotherhood, Ronnie, Tjenny and JDman, as well as others I have forgotten. Hope to be at the next meeting on 2nd March. Have been on marches and rallies, but with Largs SNP instead of with Wings.

    484. Dorothy Devine says:

      Lenny , incompetency seems to be a growing failing!

      Did no-one else meet Kinivie /Kinnivie? Did I imagine him?

    485. DerekM says:

      mate lists are always a bad idea even if they are backed by good intentions remember who might be watching why do these lazy buggers jobs for them its bad enough we have to pay their damn wages.

    486. Ron Maclean says:

      “As someday it may happen that a victim must be found
      I’ve got a little list, I’ve got a little list
      Of society offenders who might well be underground
      And who never would be missed …”

      The Mikado

    487. Ken500 says:

      The Churches – charities – have been silenced by the unionist Westminster Gov. Non disclosure agreements for funding. The Churches have privileges above the Law.

      The Churches used to speak out. Often massively critical. The ‘Red’ Archbisop. They had more members. More financial support. They have stopped speaking out in order to receive public funding. A double whammy of conformation. They have been neutered by the Westminster unionist government. Deliberately. There is a commitment to separation of the Churches and the State but this goes beyond this discipline. Politicans of faith are starving people. They are hypocrites breaking their own held ‘conviction’. Most of them should be put in jail. Total hypocrites. They bring religion into disrepute.

      The Tories are using faith to try and score political points. Some people of faith should be more careful of being suckered in. Bringing religion into disrepute. No healthy or compassionate. Or upholding their commandments. The arrogance and ignorance is beyond belief. Unbelievers. Do not do as they do. Do what they say. Greedy, arrogant, conceited, lying totally out of touch. Self harming. Harming other people. Totally unecessary and unneeded.

      The silence of the Churches. The silencing of the lambs. Or any principles. They do comfort the elderly who are being killed prematurely? A deliberate UK Gov policy. Killing their own voters. A deliberate act of self harming.

    488. Dr Jim says:

      @Proud Cybernat 11.38am

      What may seem to some a harmless exercise it may seem to others as exceptionalist othering and I’m sure that’s not what you would want or hope for in your efforts to weed out the real from the fake

      I myself post my bits of opinion and nonsense often more than once daily
      as you know and am at all the marches with family and friends but I don’t tend to be someone who introduces myself around because I am just not that sort of guy, so as you see I might not make the good guy list which doesn’t really concern me because being on a list at all I find discomforting

      I hope you see what I’m getting at and that I’m not having some gripey moan just to annoy folk

    489. Proud Cybernat says:

      “And I think it is very sad that someone on here is thinking along the terms that if you’ve not been eyeballed then you should be considered being “anti-indy posters, false flaggers, concern trolls and so on”

      That’s not what is being said. What’s being said is that there are anti-indy, false flaggers & concern trolls regularly here on WoS attempting to cause division, derail things etc. We have all come across them. How many of those posters have ever been eye-balled is what I’m trying to establish. If they’re constantly talking Scotland down, stirring shit and division AND have never been eye-balled by a single Winger then the likelihood is they’re a paid shill.

      If you post supporting indy Scotland but have never been eye-balled by any other Winger then that’s perfectly fine. Carry on doing what you’re doing. But if you are constantly posting negative posts about ScotIndy AND you have never been eyeballed (i.e. your on my list) then that should send a red flag to others about that poster.

      That’s all I’m saying.

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