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Wings Over Scotland

Replacement cartoon service

Posted on April 02, 2016 by


Chris Cairns is on holiday. Yes, again.

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    228 to “Replacement cartoon service”

    1. Stoker says:

      It’s no quite Cairnstoon standard but it’ll fill a hole, thanks!

    2. Peter Mirtitsch says:

      Love it. I still have some of my Calvin and Hobbes books.

    3. Bob Mack says:

      Please Miss, Please Miss, I know the answer!!

      The answer is 3rd.

    4. Osprey MacIntyre says:

      Can we get advance warning when he’s going to be away? We could have a fun art contest!

    5. heedtracker says:

      Rancid The Graun certainly keen to help Kez out. What a pack of spin docs for the red, blue, yellow yoons that lot are. No amount of UKOK bullshit will do

      “Kezia Dugdale: ‘My private life is my private life. That’s the thing I just have to have that nobody gets to touch”

      “Kezia Dugdale reveals she is in a relationship with a woman”

      “Dugdale was also forced to clarify her stance on Scottish independence after saying in the same interview that “it’s not inconceivable” she could support a future yes vote if the UK leaves the EU. She said she would very much like Scotland to remain part of both the UK and the EU.”

      “Dugdale was asked where her loyalty would be if there was an overall vote to leave in the EU referendum but the majority of Scots wanted to remain. She said: “I’ve never contemplated that. I really wouldn’t like to choose, because what I want to do is the best possible thing for Scotland.”

      All clear children?

    6. Famous15 says:

      LibDems whining here?

      Cryptic Saturday competition:

      Jill Stephenson and Jack an Nory. History woman is Alabama bound or is just constipated?

    7. Proud Cybernat says:

      Should’ve tried the Malky button.

    8. gordoz says:

      Latest leak from 290 Bath St is that Kez is oan the way oot !

      Labour don’t see her as FM material so after May she is to be replaced by Tom Gallagher .. to bring the faithful back on board.

    9. heedtracker says:

      Self outed, Pro/Anti independence Kez certainly freaked out ultra yoons like my Slovene girlfriend.

      Adam Tomkins ?@ProfTomkins 17h17 hours ago
      Adam Tomkins Retweeted Nicola Sturgeon
      Ouch ouch ouch. Poor Kezia. Very poor–and far too weak to lead the opposition to the Nationalists Adam Tomkins added,

      Nicola Sturgeon @NicolaSturgeon
      .@kezdugdale was right to say indy should be option in event of #Brexit against our will. Shame she seems to be u-turning again already.
      3 retweets 17 likes

    10. yesindyref2 says:

      20 fluid ounces in the UK of course.

      35 to the litre. I used to do photography!

    11. jimnarlene says:


    12. Davy says:

      For god’s sake Kezia use the “APD” magic re-appearing/dis-appearing beams, then finish them off with “super inflated baillie buster bombs”, job done.

    13. handclapping says:

      Give the man a break! When you have all these posibilities for cartoon characters like tankette Ruth, Wily E Antacid and Alistair C you need time off to get your head straight so you can cut through the crap and give us the biting art that comes up each Saturday from Chris.

      Nice try Stu but no coconut 🙂

    14. Macart says:

      Fergruddsake! Nyooze the powwerrzz of the farce!

    15. stonefree says:

      Who’s Tom Gallagher ?
      My cat could do the gig from May to say December if they’re stuck, I mean really really stuck
      Anything would be better than lurking Sarwar

    16. Dr Jim says:

      Indeed the word is Kezia’s gone after the election even if she manages to beat Patrick Harvie into second last place which will give the opportunity to Kim Jong Ruth to claim a momentous victory over everybody despite the worst polling record in human history because as we know she could promise to kill even Tory children and eat them raw and the Tories would still vote for her in defiance of the hated SNP

      This could turn out to be the stupidest election of all time where Labour and Lib opposition MSPs on the list get into Holyrood with no votes whatsoever ( Only slightly exaggerated)

      All we need now is Willie Rennie to call for “A complete and total shutdown of all Lesbicans and Hormone sexuals entering Holyrood” because it’s not representative of the electorate and David Cameron will have his excuse to invade Scotland and put us all to the sword for being a one party democracy

      A donation has been given to fund this by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation and administered by Alistair Carmichael who has been awarded The Order of the Orkney (Toto) and Rear Admiral for his services to Liberal Arse licking

      Meanwhile good witch of the North, Nicola Sturgeon floats like a butterfly and stings like a bee kept aloft by the hot air her pathetic opponents keep pumping into the SNP balloon

      The only hope left for the Yoons is to secretly change the voting day ( Ach, they’d probably still lose)

    17. katherine hamilton says:

      Heedtracker, loved the deconstruction.

      As in
      I want to be UK, I want to be EU.
      “If the vote meant UK leave, Scotland stays, I wouldn’t want to choose”
      Too late, you dipstick. It’s over. Whatyagonnado?

      And she wants to be in charge.

      Why, Kezia, why?

      It all smells of “ah want mah mammy”. She’s lost.

    18. Proud Cybernat says:

      R2D2: Seeee seeee sweeeooooo.

      CP3-0: Oh yes, R2. Been registered to vote for months now.

      R2D2: Sweeeeooooo – goo — foooo— sweeeeee-oooooo.

      CP3-0: Not sure, R2.

      R2D2: Sweeoooaaa – ceeeeee.

      CP3-0: I know, R2. It’s just so difficult.

      R2D2: Sweeeeee – noooo – ceesweeee.

      CP3-0: I think maybe SLabour.

      R2D2: SLABOUR!? FUCK OFF an grow a brain ya gold-plated nugget!

    19. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Arbroath1320 posted this late last night and it’s just too good to languish in an old thread – very nearly gave myself a hernia laughing.

      What’s it about? The clue is in the link text…

    20. bobajock says:

      Hardyharr harr. It’s Dugdale: “I’ve never contemplated that”

      A leader that has yet to ask herself about it by now. Jebus, Labour are ultra crap.

    21. Jimmy says:

      Should have selected the yo-yo policies button.

    22. jdman says:

      Ian Brotherhood @ 4.11
      What really cracked me up was that not one person cliped,
      Just goes to show how many people (none) were interested in what he had to say.

    23. mogabee says:

      It’s perfectly obvious that lifting coloured pencils is tiring work.

      The politics is the easy bit. 🙂

    24. Proud Cybernat says:

      Who will they have after Tom Gallagher?

    25. schrodingerscat says:

      An awful lot of Lib dem and Labour no voters (about 20%) will no longer have the choice of being both pro UK and pro EU

      that was from a post yesterday
      today Kezia was posed this very question, the reply was garbled nonsense but as soon as this election is over, it will be the only question people will be asking themselves.

      all unionists need to be asked this question especially wullie rennie

      if scotland votes to stay in the eu but is pulled out against its wishes by a brexit vote in the rUK,

      “will you support the call for indyref2 and how will you vote?

      YES2 needs to relaunch immediately after the Holyrood election under the banner of “YES 2 an independent Scotland in Europe”
      this will be the only public demonstration in scotland. none of the unionist parties have any activists left.

      im still not convinced that the rUK will vote leave but if they do we must be ready and take our chance.

      the 1st saturday after the euref should be targeted for a mass demonstration, in front of holyrood, and billed as “the people of Scotland demand indyref 2” immediately. In answer to the SNP manifesto pledge.
      A brexit would cause all of the unionist parties to crack down the middle and a YES2 victory would be assured.

    26. Valerie says:

      @Ian B

      The Coburn thing was posted on the night of the debate by g4jeepers, and followed up by the cat telling us it was organised by a group.

      Nice that Scotland gets recognition as the world’s best pisstakers! Seems to be a hotly contested title right now.

      The best bit in that clip, was the kipper aide in the stage whisper, telling him the sound was fine. Coburn eyes just show a kind of bovine incomprehension.

    27. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Valerie –

      ‘bovine incomprehension’ !!


    28. Croompenstein says:

      I thought it said Spacegirl ‘Spliff’, I think Kez has been on the spliffs as her memory has more holes than Slabs tax plans. She’s all mibbees aye mibbees naw total total heid the baw…

    29. Clydebuilt says:

      The Chinese have implemented a tariff of 46% on a Hi-tech steel made at Port Talbot

    30. galamcennalath says:

      schrodingerscat says:

      “YES 2 an independent Scotland in Europe”

      Yes, though a simpler “YES 2 Scotland in Europe” might be simpler. Everyone knows that IndyRef2 will follow if EngExit occurs. Should it not occur they we aren’t off to a false start to Indy.

      However, the significant thing is using the YES … it alone imparts a strong message.

      Either way, yes, we need to start people thinking Indy again soon. When enough have thought and are backing yes, we go.

    31. schrodingerscat says:

      the snp are on 55%
      yes support is about 50%
      if there is no brexit, we will not be ready for indyref2. agreed
      if there is a brexit, we should go for it immediately

      almost half of no voters support staying in the EU

      with brexit, being pro-UK and pro-EU will no longer be an option

    32. Orri says:

      The revelation from Dugdale might be a deliberate attempt at generating more support. It might also be an attempt at somehow provoking a genuine trolling or setting the scene for a manufactured one. It might also indicate a failed attempt at blackmail. If true then who knows where that might lead and who the culprits might be. Hopefully no independence voters were involved. Would be amused if it were true and turned out to be someone in Labour.

    33. heedtracker says:

      katherine hamilton says:
      2 April, 2016 at 4:06 pm
      Heedtracker, loved the deconstruction.

      I dont know what they’re trying to do with that Graun thing, although it’s

      Danny Lawson/PA
      Staff and agencies

      so its probably just the great mystery UK media grinder that says in every way possible, Scottish democracy is a v v v bad thing, you must vote anyone that opposes it.

    34. Thomas Valentine says:

      Dugdale can say pretty much what she pleases as the media will twist around in their skins to find ways of making her every word sound like gold.

      Don’t see how they’ll dress up nearly every person of importance at the head of the unionist being gay. It does make any difference to the younger voters. Neither does it help them with the young, it’s irrelevant.
      But with the predominanyly elderly unionist voters it can’t be playing well. The UKIP types will be busy hinting at Labour and the Tories in a lust filled lesbian embrace. With UKIP of course now potrayed as the only true manly unionist.

    35. Iain More says:

      So Kez came out. I guess she didn’t want a private life after all then. I couldn’t care less and I am sure that 90% plus of voters couldn’t care less about certain preferences or orientations she has.

      I couldn’t care less about what politicians watch on TV or what books they read or what hobbies they have, it is all irrelevant.

      Can she do a job as FM? Well no and that is the bottom line. Making her FM would be an utter disaster for Scotland. I am beginning to think that even making her the Leader of the Opposition in Holyrood wouldn’t be much better.

      No amount of soft sell by the Brit Nat Press and Media will make her any more electable as FM. She is just plain incompetent and her party is incompetent and utterly unfit for governing Scotland. She cant overcome one basic fact and that is the electorate as a whole doesn’t like her or her Party.

      The Brit Nat Press and Media continues to demonstrate not just its bias but its Reality Bypass!

    36. heedtracker says:

      Pretty much everyone SNP or YES gets it again from rancid Graun tonight.


      There is some normal nice people in your scotland region Graun reader but

      “That said, like every other political party, the SNP has its collection of grotesques and visigoths who spend their time anonymously making themselves out to be hard and intimidating when, in real life, they couldn’t fight sleep. ”


      “As yet another year of government by the SNP in this country passes, you begin to wonder again about your dream of an independent Scotland. And you begin to worry; not what it might cost but whether anything would ever really change.”

      Kezia led SLab will save us all, from Scottish democracy.

    37. Chic McGregor says:

      Sneaky wee poll suggestion:


      Please number the five professionals you generally dislike the most from the list below, where number one is the one you dislike the most.

      Elected Parliamentary Politicians
      Members of the Peerage
      Spin Doctors
      Members of Royalty funded by the public purse
      TV and Radio Broadcasters
      Newspaper Journalists
      On line Bloggers
      Tax Collectors
      Estate Agents
      Police Officers
      Secret Service Operatives
      Arms Manufacturers
      Insurance Salespersons
      Double Glazing Salespersons
      Pharmaceuticals Manufacturers
      Football Administrators
      Advertising Executives

      Note, On Line Bloggers is there in the interest of balance.

    38. Skooshcase says:

      That Kezi’s a lezzy is no big deal whatsoever; Christ, who isn’t, these days?! But, I’ll still say, outwith all the politics, good on her for ‘coming out’: it’s a really difficult choice for some to make, especially for those in the public eye.

      It’s the bastard paedophiles that need to be outed (those of a Conservative bent seem especially prone – allegedly), though the Establishment and Westminster are doing their damned hardest to ensure they aren’t. Fucking scum.

    39. Skooshcase says:

      @heedtracker at 7:21 pm

      Aye, that’s yer Kevin McKenna for ye. A fucking hypocrite. To me, he is nothing more than a journalistic whore – someone who will sell themselves to any bidder, and then go ahead and write whatever agenda-led piece his buyers wish to see in print.

      The Guardian? SNPBAD pish. The Mail? SNPBAD shite. And then up he pops in the National with an SNPGOOD article!

      Just another shyster Scottish unionist ‘journalist’.

      Don’t fall for his Damascene conversion to SNP/INDEPENDENCEGOOD, he’s still hardcore Glasgow Labour, even though he pretends to have seen the light and reformed his ways/views. Not to be trusted.

    40. call me dave says:

      I posted this earlier. 🙁

      Then along comes this: Same location 🙂
      South Korean firm acquires Wind Towers Scotland

      Seems Sturgeon is expanding our horizons.

      Something for the weekend Sport.

    41. Valerie says:

      So, Mr McKenna jumps on the creaking NP, SNP cult, bandwagon?

      Joining the opportunist Ruth, the deluded, U turning Kez, and the hateful 88.

      Well done, Kev, that article, which is completely misleading shite, confirms your place in Scotland’s trash can of journos, unable, unwilling to write anything balanced.

    42. heedtracker says:

      Skooshcase says:
      2 April, 2016 at 7:49 pm
      @heedtracker at 7:21 pm

      Who pays the UKOK piper…

      He is just one more bullshit artist but what really makes me angry is the hard fact that only devo-max or full independence, is going to enable Scotland to develop a economic future that can end chronic social problems.

      But who’s still in control of their Scotland region?

      Who’s raging away at us for our worst deficit in the west?

      Who’s cooked up a The Vow shyst designed to fcuk Scotland up completely?

      Nothing’s even mentioned in the grand olde UKOK press, red and blue tory. All they have do now is, go get the gimp. McKenna this week.

    43. JLT says:

      You must wonder what Kezia is like when she goes shopping.

      Walking around the aisles and …stops…

      I’m no buyin’! Look at the price! That far too dear …however …I will buy that because it looks awfy nice, but wait, that thing that was too dear is actually oan offer. So, if I buy two …even three …then I’ll save money …or will ah? Hawd oan …let me think this wan oot. Naw wait, ah ken …ah’ll phone Jackie …she’ll ken. Jackie! Jackie! It’s me, Kezia. See if ah buy something that’s dear, but is actually on sale, will ah save money if ah buy three …or even four. You’re sayin’ naw? How? Aw right …didnae think o that. Might be oaf. Aye OK…see you the morra. Right, ignore that …but wait! There’s an alternative item that is the same but is dearer than the wan that was on sale even though it wiz dearer tae begin wae. Right …so dae I buy that? ….Or dae ah no? Ehh…. whit wid Nicola dae? Right Kezia …think outside o’ the box; think independently ….Wait! Whit!!!! Whit am a sayin’??? Independently …where did that come fae? That was Nicola’s fault. She pit that in ma heid. Thoughts o’ independence! Aye …SNP baaaad! Makin’ me choose between the dear item that is gawin’ cheap, or the cheap item that is dearer that the cheapy-dear item? Aye …SNP baaaaaad. Naw …ah ken whit tae dae? Ah’ll abstain. Ah’m no votin’ on it. That’s it!!! Sorted. Ah’m no choosin’ either! Right …seems like its cheese on toast fir tea tonight then. Jeez …shoappin’s awfy hard….

      You can just picture it with all the hot-footing that she does.

    44. There is no such thing as “Devo Max”. The words are meaningless. There is the “status quo” which includes various degrees of ever more complicated devolved concessions but which retains all power and there is independence.

    45. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @All –

      Need to pick the collective big brain that is WOS btl…

      Remember when Gordon Brown was coming out with all that shite about his favourite sporting moment being Gazza scoring against Scotland?

      Does anyone remember whether or not anyone challenged him over that, or brought it up ever again?

      (And yes, I know I can just google it, but I’m more interested in whether anyone actually ‘remembers’ stuff like this for real…)

    46. Stoker says:

      A man walks into a bar, orders a drink then takes a stool.
      Ten minutes later he sees the bartender going through some sign language with a crowd of people at a table at the other end of the pub. Minutes later he sees the bartender taking a load of drinks over to the table full of deaf people. When the bartender returns the man asks; “that’s amazing that, where did you learn to do that sign language”? “Och,” replies the barman, “they’ve been coming in here for years and they’ve been teaching me”. The man nods his head in approval, orders another drink and think’s no more of it. Half- an-hour later the man notices the full group all waving their arms in the air very frantically. Then he notices the bartender rushing round the bar and, one by one, proceeds to throw them all out. When the bartender returns, feeling all chuffed with himself, the man ask’s; “what the hell was that all about”? The bartender replies: “They’ve been coming in here for years and If I’ve told them once I’ve told them a million times; NO FUCKIN SINGING IN THE BAR.”

    47. Clootie says:

      “…the farce” must be the winner!!!

    48. Bob Mack says:


      Reminds me of an old joke;

      A dyslexic man walks into a bra_____

    49. Chic McGregor says:

      Aye IanB, Ah mind it.

      It wis on a par wi Blair mindin Jackie Millburn playin fur Newcastle afore yon wis possible or Cameron gettin confufflet ower West Ham an Aston Villa.

      Broon claimed he liked the Arctic Monkeys tae, bit Ah think it mair likely he jist thocht that wis a furrint tax haven.

    50. Tam Jardine says:


      “As yet another year of government by the SNP in this country passes, you begin to wonder again about your dream of an independent Scotland.”

      Kevin’s concerned… I see the same concern on here now again.

      He has a lovely way about himself: I suppose I am one of those “howling at the moon in support of the SNP’s named persons scheme for every child under 18.” Fucking egomaniac- anyone who disagrees with him is a nutter it seems. Trump plays that game as well. Kevin is not mocking a disabled person but it is essentially the same game.

      As for his opposition to the NP scheme (which is purely on the surface the subject matter of his article) he conveniently destroys his entire position by recognising that all of this ‘sinister’ intrusion already happens.

      From the time we bring infants into the world there are health professionals attending, and not to have a cup of tea and a blether. They are ticking boxes, making assessments and ensuring the health and wellbeing of the child is monitored by someone outwith the family.

      To suggest, particularly in the context of the care of children that the government has some sinister motivation without any evidence to back it up is wholly irresponsible. And this active campaign against the scheme may be a fun wee political game for Kevin and others but they risk doing real damage to the professionals involved in feeding into the fears of vulnerable groups.

      What is so offensive about his article to those in teaching and healthcare is the suggestion that they will somehow become sensitive or less aware of the needs of the families of vulnerable children.

      Why are the SG going down this route? Well, I guess it might be to try and avoid any more of the awful cases of neglect we have seen over the years. His point about the SNP gathering information on a big central database just makes me think he hasn’t thought this through. Many of the most vulnerable children from school to school, sometimes from one educational authority to another and so you need a robust system to deal with this.

      The impact for your average loving family will, from what I can tell, be the sum total of fuck all.

    51. yesindyref2 says:

      Re Kevin McKenna, that same article he says this: “Yet even a cursory glance at social media will show that much of the most delinquent behaviour is manifest in the witterings of elected Scottish Labour figures who really ought to know better.

      He also has an article in the Herald:

      There’s a lot of Indy supporters and campaigners didn’t like the SNP, after all supposedly 4% of Conservatives and 30% or so of LibDems voted YES. Kevin practically hated the SNP, that was a feature of his Sunday column in the Observer (Guardian). But in time he came to hate even more what had happened to his party, Labour (plus his church RC). I think he read the comments, even quoted bits some of the posters used in comments (which shows the value of persisting btl).

      Well, he’s not alone there, same happened to many other ex-Labour members and supporters.

    52. Iain says:

      Just got to thinking, that the yoons are fucked fighting over second place. Yoonery has never been so low they are in despair, their empire is ending and all they try fails. Their ace card the bbc is reviled and ignored by most sensible people in Scotland. They face the prospect of an independent Scotland and there is nothing they can do. They are currently obsessed by brexit and their eye is off the ball. If we were stupid enough to let them, they would pull us out from the European human rights act, sign us to some act where the USA shafts us over trade. We have the chance to prevent that.
      Vote Snp,Snp in May and remain in June

    53. Dr Jim says:

      Remember when they said we needed 50 billion to have a our own Bank and lender of last resort

      The Clydesdale Bank is all Scottish now and guess who they’re talking to, (merge merge) coz that’s just a drop in the Yellow river to some folk

      If it wasn’t too racist sounding I’d be going Ying Tong Tiddle aye Po , just as a new bullet train speeds past

      And I bow to Chairwoman Sturgeon

      Now admit it, that’s not beyond the bounds is it, or is it?

    54. Valerie says:

      @Dr Jim

      Was thinking along the same lines after reading call me Dave’s links posted above.

      A SG behaving like we are independent.

      May you live in interesting times….. oh, we do!

    55. Thepnr says:


      Loved that wee post, had the imagination going.

      I reckon you got it spot on 🙂

    56. Valerie says:

      In keeping with the space theme, Film 4 has persuaded me aboard the Nostrodamus – for the umpteenth time.

      The alien is going to burst from John Hurts chest shortly.

    57. Iain says:

      All this fuss over a named person looking after the interests of kids in Scotland. Does anyone give a fuck that people in my city have the lowest life expectancy in Europe. We need to focus on the fact that we have been subsidizing a neighboring country for 309 years and it will have to stop.

    58. Croompenstein says:

      @Valerie –

      Film 4 has persuaded me aboard the Nostrodamus

      I hate to be a pedant Valerie but the ship is the USCSS Nostromo. 🙂

    59. Thepnr says:


      Totally agree, there are issues and then there are ISSUES.

      The media tend to focus on the issues while completely ignoring the ISSUES affecting real people who are literally dying through lack of provision of decent welfare. The original safety net that we all bought into and believed in until, it would seem when Blair took over.

      Even Thatcher did not try to dismantle the welfare state, there were no food banks in her day, no tuition fees, in fact most students got grants. It was Labour that started making us all poorer.

      Just look at the statistics for the East End of Glasgow and parts of Dundee they are fucking deplorable in comparison to the UK average and absolutely despicable compared to London and the SE of England.

      Named person in my view will prove to be a good decision but it is NOT the most important topic that politicians and journalists should be raising.

      This is the real problem, no one other than the SG wants to talk about the real problems, hence we get shite in our newspapers purposely to distract the weaker minded and their sole purpose is to try to put a dent in support for Independence and the SNP.

      Don’t bend, don’t waver, we only need another 5%.

    60. Valerie says:


      You would think I would know! I must know the whole script!

      I’m obviously blaming it on that Nostronawbag, McTernan!

    61. Cadogan Enright says:

      An issue I fear the Rev will fail to emphatise with as he does not ‘get it’

      He was equating Gaelic speakers with Ramgers Supporters yesterday when the (well deserved) £87k tally finally came through.

      He’s a bit like the over 65’s without the internet and believing they have a ‘free press’ feeding them the truth, being reviewed by a truthful BBC. Except his is a cultural vacuum, not a political one – but they are closely related

      Maybe we could offer to send him on a course for basic human rights? I keep expecting the light to go off in his head and the apology to follow

    62. Orri says:

      Even should sLab become another independence supporting part I would not vote for them if that meant the SNP would need their support to call a referendum. Even voting for the Greens is something I’d only consider if I had absolute faith the SNP had a secured majority and/or they (Greens) could be relied upon to vote for said referendum. I’d also need to be assured that the SNP not getting as high a vote as possible in the list vote could not be used to argue there was no mandate for another referendum. Labour, no chance.

    63. Bittie Glakit says:

      The thing is, when we achieve independence, should we reclaim the oilfields that now are on the English side of the re-drawn sea border, or do we ask for Berwick upon Tweed instead? I wonder how the folk there would vote if they got the chance. Are they Scots with English ties or English with Scottish leanings?

      Here are a few pictures for your amusement.

    64. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Chic McG (9.20) –

      Cheers mister.

    65. schrodingerscat says:

      the despair of sept 14 is disappearing
      snp on 55% in the polls


      labour on 20% and their leader says, she will campaign with us, yes folks, you heard right, with US, for a yes vote in indyref2 after a brexit.

      i hoped for a yes result in indyref1, in indyref2 it will be a forgone conclusion


    66. Iain says:

      It needs to be said. Why in my city some of the people live to 53 and the United kingdom of Britain thinks it’s ok to spend£170+ billion pounds on a white elephant called trident. Maybe it’s more about politicians bragging their balls are the size of aircraft tyres. We need to move on. Trident v drones= sunk subs.

    67. Almannysbunnet says:

      Spot the plonker.

    68. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Iain and Thepnr –

      Cheers both.

      It’s so refreshing, every now and then, to see folk bringing it all back to basics.

      Blame it on whatever you like – the class system, capitalism, general ignorance, fear, whatever. The hairy-arsed fact is that hundreds of thousands of our own friends, relatives and neighbours have gone to their graves early – in many cases two decades or more early – because we’re governed by a cabal of self-seeking parasites who don’t give a fuck about us. We would do well to realise that there’s not a solitary reason why they should.

      So long as we stay quiescent they will continue to exploit and humiliate us, and our dying early is, to them, nothing more than the natural wastage of weaklings and runts.

      If we don’t do anything about it, we ARE weaklings and runts.

    69. Thepnr says:

      My family were all born in the East end of Glasgow. I’m the eldest, my younger brother passed away last year. Age 53.

    70. Lenny Hartley says:

      O/T don’t know where Marcia has gone but this is Sunday Herald front page.

      Not good, hope Mr Aamer Anwar is safe, he is a good guy.

    71. Orri says:

      Just a question about “Scottish Resistance” shirts been known opponents of independence. Is that a reference to “Disease Resistance” in plants?

    72. It’s no surprise to me that fat slob McKenna is jumping on the named person SNP BAD tagteam.

      EX-Editor of the Daily Mail in Scotland told me all I needed to know about that fucking rat.

      This is obviously the chosen subject on the attack agenda for the unionist scum sucking dogs.

      Ruthie Wank Commander was also involved in their co-ordinated media spewings.They’ve smelt a smear trick that can be used to damage SNP,the welfare and safety of the children is the least of their concerns.

      And we’ve had wee Willie Winkie rattling on about Police Scotland- hypocrite-the same bastards who never paid their police bill of £800,000

      We are entering the end game and they were peein their pants before so now it’s desperation alley for the Establishment.

      Their precious Rule Brittannia is crumbling around them and they’re fighting each other like ferrets in a sack.

      Hell mend them,they deserve everything that’s coming to them.

      Hold together a wee bitty longer and they are finished.

      Live as if we’re in the early days of a better nation for it’s on the way.

    73. Rock says:

      Ian Brotherhood,

      “So long as we stay quiescent they will continue to exploit and humiliate us, and our dying early is, to them, nothing more than the natural wastage of weaklings and runts.”

      If the likes of “Business for Scotland” and “Lawyers for Yes” become part of the new establishment in an independent Scotland, we will continue to be exploited and humiliated.

      A small rich minority inevitably means a big poor majority.

      Someone should do some research on the individuals behind “Business for Scotland” and “Lawyers for Yes” and find out about their wealth.

    74. Dr Jim says:


      Have you not see the Scottish Defence Force shirts yet

    75. Dr Jim says:

      Saturday cartoon day’s great

    76. Rock says:

      Lenny Hartley,

      “Not good, hope Mr Aamer Anwar is safe, he is a good guy.”

      Do you know that these “human rights” lawyers make a killing while hundreds of thousands starve in Scotland?

      The vast majority of lawyers, especially judges, are the lowest of the low.

      Nevertheless, I am strongly opposed to death threats on anyone.

    77. Rock says:


      “Even voting for the Greens is something I’d only consider if I had absolute faith the SNP had a secured majority and/or they (Greens) could be relied upon to vote for said referendum.”

      The Greens could most certainly not be relied upon.

      They would hold an SNP government to ransom on every issue, let alone on referendum.

    78. Tam Jardine says:


      Now why did you have to post something so nasty? Jesus wept- get a fucking grip man. You think that’s appropriate? Don’t reply- please read your last post and sleep on it.

      Christ- thats the last thing I’m going to read today? Cheers

    79. Thepnr says:


      There can be no doubting that you are an absolute Star!

      First stick the heed on Ian Brotherhood. Yah Belter!

      Kick Lenny Hartley in the balls. Offt!

      Then a straight left to Orri that hurts but he’s still on his feet.

      Why are you here?

    80. ArtyHetty says:


      Disgusting comment regards death threats.

      A. Anwar has more integrity and humanity than most, he doesn’t deserve nasty comments at this time.

    81. Thepnr says:


      Forgot to ask, are you bringing your pals to your party again.

      Looking forward to seeing them soon xx

    82. ArtyHetty says:


      Just in case anyone feels the need to watch a short film, (sometimes it takes away from the stresses of the day) I have been getting hooked on the films at National Library Scotland archive. I watched one last night, it’s really quite funny, called, ‘The Great Mill Race’, based on an Alasdair Gray story.

      Been watching some about the ‘Oil Bonanza’ (worth millions’ apparently, employing mainly ‘locals’ though it’s hard to catch a Scottish accent) and others, mostly all about Scotland, from the late 1800s(!) to the 2000s. Fascinating on so many levels, historically, politically, culturally, industrially etc. It’s all there, both good, and bad!
      Just search for,

    83. cctxt says:

      Bittie Glakit says @10.48pm

      “The thing is, when we achieve independence, should we reclaim the oilfields that now are on the English side of the re-drawn sea border, or do we ask for Berwick upon Tweed instead? I wonder how the folk there would vote if they got the chance. Are they Scots with English ties or English with Scottish leanings?”

      Berwick had a locally organised vote (referendum) quite recently :

    84. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Oh dear…

      Poor old Rock isn’t even really trying any more, eh?

      Reminds me of the final days of the infamous ‘Norsewarrior’ – Rev snuffed our flaming cybernat torches just as we were preparing to send him to Valhalla…


    85. schrodingerscat says:

      Cadogan Enright

      saw some of the presentations on indylive at the last wos meeting, but the mike was switched off for 3 of them.

      any chance you could run an guest article on wos, wgd or anywhere really so we can see this movement and understand it better?
      would appreciate and like to see the comments from those here on wos

    86. call me dave says:

      SNP smell blood…a bit strong. Poor Kez!

      Also Rennie gave money to the Carmichael legal fund: Guess how much!

      Plus another probe!

      I wondered if this story might have moved up the agenda but no 🙁

    87. heedtracker says:

      First stick the heed on Ian Brotherhood. Yah Belter!

      You rang.

      Normally I only do UKOK yoons, toryboys, rancid the Graun gits, BBC Scotland reprobates, drive-by’s, weddings, bar mitzvahs, children birthday parties, but on this occasion, given his usual Cif time of night, it looks a lot like erectile dysfunction, thus the moniker, The Rock.

      Try Viagra,, The Rock.

    88. call me dave says:

      Trying to get a peek at Catriona Matthews playing in the ANA golf competition in Yankee land but no joy. Not even a verbal mention. She’s well up the leaderboard at -6 three behind.
      Hmm! Just finished 3rd round.

      What’s really annoying is that the Saltire against her name the last two days on the Sky stream is good but the Golf Channel tonight has her with a union jack. 🙁

      That’s me green tea and off to bed.

    89. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Rock.

      You typed,

      “Someone should do some research on the individuals behind “Business for Scotland” and “Lawyers for Yes” and find out about their wealth.”

      Excuse me but you’re not on here for hours at a time. You have no windows in your hectic itinerary? You don’t have the capability of doing some research yourself, or are you just a lazy keyboard warrior?

      I’ve known a member of ‘Business For Scotland’ for decades. He runs his own business. He supplied the YES Bus for ‘Team YES Bus’ and also supplied the battlebus for ‘Business For Scotland’.

      His workshop restored and converted Chris Law’s ‘Spirit of Independence’ Green Goddess. He personally covered the loss made by the pro-indy rally in Dundee in October last year.

      Team YES Bus has been organising monthly foodbank collections, in support of the ‘Taught By Muhammad’ foodbank since just after the referendum.

      He will be taking the YES Bus up Dundee Law on Wednesday, for the ‘Hands Round The Law’ pro-indy event.

      Rock, stop tarring people with your own prejudices. Bob is worth a hundred of you – and actually gets up off his @r$€ and does something. What do you do, if you can’t even be @r$€d to do your own research?

    90. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @BDTT –


      Right now, Rock’s wee ears must be burning.

      Aw bless…

      Before he returns on the next stage of his mission he might benefit from watching this very wee clip featuring Michael Caine…

    91. Thepnr says:

      Poor Rock, LOL will you guys please just leave him alone?

      He want’s to be alone, right.

    92. Thepnr says:


      Your nuttiest yet! Or is it 🙂

    93. yesindyref2 says:

      Ah Rock, doesn’t like The National, now it’s BfS and LfY, probably WfI, who’s next?

      I knew Gordon Macintyre-Kemp of BfS a few years ago and would happily give him a reference, not that he needs it from me. He’s a trier, and a nice guy too. Put a lot of hard work into First Tuesday for Glasgow. I’d trust him and there’s not a lot of people I’d say that about.

    94. Grouse Beater says:

      Some weekend reading

      Fun politics:
      Fun cartoon:

    95. NeoconNat says:

      Ian brotherhood: “hundreds of thousands of our own friends, relatives and neighbours have gone to their graves early – in many cases two decades or more early – because we’re governed by a cabal of self-seeking parasites who don’t give a fuck about us.”

      A bit on the simplistic side.

    96. Ken500 says:

      Thatcher starved and attacked the Miners. Thatcher brought in student loans (abolishing the Grants). Everyone got one. Not means tested. The loans were interest free. Now interest is added. Making it more difficult to pay back. Thatcher did move unemployed (3 million) to sick benefit. Many miners got compensation payments (pensions?) but no jobs. Interest rates were at 15% many people lost their homes or ended up in negative equity.

      The Tories have stopped coal/steel production in the UK. It is now imported. Putting up the balance of payment deficit and the debt. They damaged the Oil sector losing thousands of jobs in Scotland. Taxing the Oil sector at 60/80% when the price of Oil had fallen 75%. The Oil producers stopped exploration in 2011 whenOsbourne/Alexander increased the Oil tax 11% to 81%. Danny Alexander laughed and cost Scotland £20Billion++.

      Thatcher secretly, and illegally took the Oil revenues and spent them on London S/E. Canary Wharf
      Tilbury Docks. Unemployment rates in London S/E are 4%. The lowest in Britain.

      The Tories are building Hinkley Point £25Billion (double it) and HS2 £70Billion (double it) = £95Billion – the deficit. A tidal power station at the Humber (£9Billion) would produce more safe power but was cut as too expensive. HS2 is a complete waste of money, with no business case which will make journeys throughout the UK longer. Connection will take longer and will lose the 20mins time saved. More time consuming and delays. More expensive and more traffic on the roads.

      The Tories have banned wind turbines in England and stopped investment in solar but plan to export nuclear waste. They are starving people to death and spending £170Billon on Trident.

      Rock makes some valid points.

    97. Sinky says:

      o/t Poor Kezia. No wonder she’s gone AWOL.

      Scotland on Sunday reports that a poster in her Constituency Office states

      “I live in (sic) locally in Lochend” and to think she had school teachers for parents.

    98. Breeks says:

      Maybe it already exists, I don’t know, but I would like to think that our Lawyers for Independence have some rudimentary battle plan to challenge the instruments of our subjugation.
      What grounds do we have to formally contest all this Unionist propaganda, not just as propaganda but for having a virtual monopoly on propaganda?
      I really want to know precisely what can be challenged. How big a stick can we jam into the spokes of the BBC propaganda machine? Is there EU legislation which can help us? Are there instruments in the UN which can be recruited to help? I have so many questions…

      To take a step back a moment; throughout the YES campaign and referendum, I am filled with remorse and sadness that such an opportunity was missed, and the dubious manner in which it was confounded. But if I was highlight one single incidence of Scottish defiance which wasn’t undone by propaganda and skullduggery, but actually won, I keep coming back to AXA’s unsuccessful challenge to the Scottish Parliaments right to make laws. I’m not a lawyer, nor do I fare well reading legal jargon, but the upshot of the case was very important because the UK’s Supreme Court ultimately recognised aspects of Scottish sovereignty which could not legally be set aside, ever. It seems to me we have a benchmark here; a permanent datum point where UK sovereignty and Scottish sovereignty are distinct and separate, and recognised as such by the UK’s Supreme Court.

      It strikes me, that as far as understated issues which back or struggle for independence, this judgement is a second McCrone Report; a damning indictment of the UK’s regard for Scottish interests kept quiet and outside public awareness.

      Scotland has already been defended by this legal principle and the distinction it enshrines in law.

      So why don’t we have a battery of legal challenges charging towards this obvious breach in the ramparts of UK sovereignty?

    99. Grouse Beater says:

      Keep Calm, and Wear a Nappy:

    100. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I see this morning, the Mail has gone big on Dippity Dug coming out.

      Now this might work for the Inependence movement, given they point-out that four of the top politicians are now openly gay – Coburn apparently doesn’t count – not important, if not self-important enough.

      So, the Mail is probably subliminally telling the English: These Jocks are all kilt-wearing poofters who are coming down here to ravage you all.

      Just might help persuade them to let us go. Nice one Mail.

    101. Macart says:

      The diversity of the YES vote was its greatest success IMO. It doesn’t and shouldn’t see political or societal barriers. The only thing that should matter is that the peoples of Scotland wish to live in a truly representative democracy where we all have a voice who will speak for us and a parliament and government that reflects our needs, our aspirations and responds to our concerns.

      I talked to and stood beside folk from backgrounds and party affiliations across the spectrum throughout that whole period. We all did and it felt good that we were all pulling in the same direction. We made friends we never thought we would and we achieved more than some ever thought we could.

      In short, we made friends. Worth remembering through this party political election period. Let’s stay that way. 🙂

    102. cearc says:


      Well they couldnae go big on her ‘policies’ could they?

    103. Ken500 says:

      Joanna Cherry recently gave Westminster an accurate lecture on Scottish Law/Sovereignty. Bill Cash visage (or coupon) was a picture.

      The London ‘Supreme’ Court of Appeal (Blair) denies the right of Scottish (EU) citizens to appeal to the EU court. The London ‘Supreme’ (Blair) Court always have to defer to the findings of the Scottish Court verdict because of Scottish Law (sovereignty) being upheld under UK Union Law.

      The costs of the legal system deny people an average earnings justice.

      No mention of the Scottish Gov steel deal.

    104. Bob Costello says:

      Rock , your writing gives me the impression that you for some reason, have a natural down on people who have worked all their lives and have something to show for it. You comment on the members of Business For Scotland as though there is something wrong with success. I have been a member of BFS from the early days of its inception and have met many good and committed people. Committed to an independent scotland and willing to put their money where their mouth is. There may very well be some of them that are wealthy (and I do not include myself in that category)but what actually is your problem with that. I am sure they have worked very hard for that.
      Your unwarranted attack on people you obviously don’t know smacks of the politics of envy. Business for Scotland worked very well during the referendum campaign putting out the fiscal arguments along with the reindustrialisation case for an independent Scotland. You condemn yourself with your own words when you ask other people to research on your behalf, so therefore you are making unfounded allegations about people you know absolutely nothing off.
      I remember when I and other members of the Yes Bus team were demonstrating against Jim Murphy when he came to Dundee with his shadow Cabinet and we followed him around Dundee including right into the Chamber of Commerce offices where we rather upset his lunch appointment ( you were probably having a long lie that day) At one point when I was spoiling his pre arranged visits to supposed Yes supporters he said to me ” OK Bob ,so do you call yourself a socialist” “no Jim” I said ” I am a capitalist, but a capitalist with a social conscience, whereas , you Jim are simply a capitalist”
      So Rock please think before you open your mouth because comments like yours do nothing to add to the quality of constructive debate.

    105. Bill says:


      Even Countryfile carries an SNP Bad story: “Because of elections in May the SG won’t be making decisions soon on Beaver controls”

      *whacks face into desk*

    106. Ken500 says:

      Sajid Javid failed banker. The Tories are lying.

    107. FairFerfochen says:

      Scotlands talk in Northsound Rennie will be on

      0333 20 20 401

    108. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Bob Costello Did,nt take you long to find out our resident Troll , not worthy of your time Bob.

    109. mealer says:

      Bob Costello 9.46,
      Exactly that.Rock has a problem with the fact that our national movement for independence draws support from all sections of society.He views people who live in a bungalow as his enemies and doesn’t want them to be allowed to support independence.

      Bob,your work for our ongoing campaign is much respected and greatly appreciated by those who have Scotlands best interests at heart.Thanks.

    110. ronnie anderson says:

      Marr on Sunday.

      Thank fek ah dont pay the TV licence fee, three people tae play ah Grand Piano,ah wunner whit the fee fur the page turner wiz lol.

      Bringing culture tae the masses at three times the costs weil done Bbc.

    111. Bob Mack says:

      @Bob Costello,

      Accurate ,factual, correct. I need say no more.

    112. Robert Peffers says:

      @gordoz says: 2 April, 2016 at 3:12 pm:

      “Labour don’t see her as FM material so after May she is to be replaced by Tom Gallagher .. to bring the faithful back on board.”

      Assuming, of course, that after May there will still be any faithful left to bring back. Besides, that is except for those who are party officials, or their relatives, or who the aforementioned party officials have the dirt on to force them to comply.

    113. NeoconNat says:

      The most interesting thing in the Sunday papers; there are more obese people in the world than underweight people. The luvvies on here and elsewhere will no doubt find that hard to square with their Leninist dogma, nevertheless it can only be construed as a triumph for capitalism.

    114. Flower of Scotland says:

      @Robert Peffers

      Good to see you back again.

    115. HandandShrimp says:

      nevertheless it can only be construed as a triumph for capitalism.

      or a poor basic diet

    116. Stoker says:

      Bob Mack wrote:
      “Reminds me of an old joke; A dyslexic man walks into a bra_____”

      🙂 An ah bet ye he hud ah guid auld *Moan* aboot it, eh!

      (PS, looks like our attempts failed to lighten the thread mood, Bob)

    117. Croompenstein says:

      @NeoconNat – a bit simplistic…

    118. Dr Jim says:

      Sajid Javid

      Used every bad trick in every bad book on how to avoid bad questions and then answered them badly

      Wee Eck spelled out what I’ve been saying over the last few days Cameron Osborne and the Tory machine won’t be content until there’s a big Glass Jaggy Skyscraper sticking up in the middle of Londinium with Welcome to China printed on it and underneath in much smaller letters will be This building was made possible because the Chinese greased our Fat Tory Palms

      Our FMs got it right, we’ll do business but you don’t own us, you can invest as much as you like but no favours, except maybe a wee game of golf with Eck
      “If”? there’s a merger with the Clydesdale bank to create the circumstances we all might want to see it’ll still be the Clydesdale bank, If not, you can take your pointy hat and go home Kwai Chang

      The one thing we can be sure of is, the SNP won’t do the Tory Bung system on Chinese Cash Investment

      Chairwoman Sturgeon? Hmm…Naah!! Nikkaay!!

    119. thomaspotter2014 says:

      ronnie anderson@10.17

      ronnie -the Grand Piano players on the Andrew Marr Show are like the band playing on the deck of the Establishment Titanic.

      Not long now.It’s all coming apart at the seams.

    120. Stoker says:

      Message to that tube posting at 11.08am.
      That word should have read *Mone* (as in Mammary Mone the bra lady).

    121. NeoconNat says:

      Handandshrimp, you can hardly blame capitalism for over-indulgence. Same goes for Scottish people dying young which someone earlier put down to the government not caring. If people choose to pickle their livers or eat too much, you can’t argue that they’re deprived.

    122. Bill says:

      The Scottish Labour leadership fight after May is going to be epic. I’d order popcorn now as I’m predicting a shortage.

      Watching SLAB pull itself apart due to its ideological hatred of the SNP is entertaining.

      No Mercy!

      SNP x2

    123. Clootie says:

      I find it interesting that the trolls go for two basic attacks;
      a) Only the poor can argue for a fairer society.
      b) The wealthy reject Independence and support capitalism.

      The YES movement demonstrated that a very wide cross section of support for Independence exists in our nation. The main reason is that it will be our choice and we will accept MSPs and parties from the full spectrum of politics.
      It probably will not be as left as some would like but it certainly will not be as capitalist and neoliberal as the present UK.

      …the trolls seek to divide as always. We are long past that marker.
      The trolls are still convinced that Scotland will be a mini UK. Almost everyone I know puts future generations first in the argument….that is what makes the difference.

    124. cctxt says:

      Well said Clootie

    125. Valerie says:


      You are just oozing empathy for those less fortunate who might seek refuge in eating crap and drinking, eh? You must know that stats show much of it is about life chances and education.

      There are lots of reasons that folk self medicate with drink or drugs – watch Trainspotting! However, alcohol does cross the classes, just done in posher houses for some.

      Having worked in various types of social services, it’s best not to judge or feel superior – it can happen to anyone.

      I do think, however, that big business selling sugary shit at cheap prices, will get a wake up call in the not too distant future, very similar to the tobacco companies.

      The science is already showing sugar is linked to a myriad of diseases, not just diabetes and obesity.

      Anyone concerned with their health, really try and cut sugar.

    126. harry mcaye says:

      Bill, Ruthie and Kez are probably the experts on beavers, to be fair.

    127. Valerie says:

      Watching the Parliament channel, showing a Select Committee from 1 March, talking about Russia.

      Without a hint of irony, they berate Russia for

      being pragmatic with the truth
      Not being transparent
      Using trolls on social media
      Controlling the narrative of the media.

      It’s a scream, all said with straight faces, whilst saying how different the UK is.

    128. Bill says:

      Harry, I never considered the link between Beavers and Kez, honestly. ?

    129. NeoconNat says:

      The only alternative to the death of Scottish Labour is for them to embrace independence as an idea. The extent to which they do that is interesting and is being debated right now. They may leave the issue to the prerogative of individuals, a cowardly approach which tends to be ineffective and divisive, or they might go all in and make it party policy.

      The Scottish Tories have won the fight to represent diehard unionists. That means they’ll pick up votes from Orange Order types and pensioners who still believe that Britishness stands for something. Both dying breeds, I might add, and literally too.

      The fight to shape post-independent Scotland has officially started and it’s premised on the assumption that independence is inevitable. It’s about ten years away at most, if we take the slow road.

      And all of that is why I am here. The leftist luvvies have systematically failed us over the last 50 years. They have proved to be completely dishonest and self-serving.

      Beware the refugees from Scottish Labour who after abandoning the sinking ship will move to hijack everything and feather their nests to the detriment of us all. They’re on their way and we should be ready with a response.

    130. FairFerfochen says:

      Rennie on now, usual guff, best ever cuntry in the wurrild

      I’m a wee bit biased says he

      0333 20 20 401

    131. NeoconNat says:

      Valerie, without questioning anything you said, where would you draw the line in terms of your interventionism? Ban paper clips because 1 in 4 million might stick one in his eye?

    132. Ruby says:

      ‘Carry On Kezia’ being a lesbian is pretty boring!

      What is interesting is why she decided to come out at this point in time.

      Did she want to steal some of the gay vote from Ruth?

      Was someone going to spill the beans and did she decided to go to the press first?

      I wonder what the headlines would have been if her ‘secret life’ had been leaked to the press? Any suggestions?

      Why was she masquerading as a hetrosexual women? That seems a bit dishonest! If I were Ruth Davidson I would have resented that and would have been tempted to out her.

      I understand she is a feminist is that correct?
      I don’t know if I as a hetrosexual woman am convinced that a gay woman can represent me when it comes to women’s issues!

    133. galamcennalath says:

      Clootie says:

      “…. the trolls go for …”

      They seem a tad more sophisticated these days.

      Very few now try to go head to head. Regurgitating the colonial media’s line here never got very far!

      The tactics seem to be – attempting to put a wedges between the left, centre, and mild right of the the Indy movement (as you say), also deflection onto topics which are contentious, or sowing subtle seeds of doubt on SNP policies.

      Most folks here have their eye on the big prize and can see through the chaff.

    134. Valerie says:

      That’s a comical but pathetic comparison, Neocon.

      We intervene to save money to the NHS, to educate, to try and keep children out of care.

      Ultimately, a society is judged by how we treat our vulnerable, and that means every type of vulnerability. It makes no financial or social sense to ignore those intent on self harm. The impacts are wide reaching.

      Can’t save everyone, but we have to try.

    135. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @NeoconNat –

      If you are what your name suggests, and you are here to give ‘pale, male, stale’ left-leaning luvvies like meself a stern talking-to, fair enough. Now that you’ve introduced yourself, perhaps you might like to put some flesh on the bones?

      Where’s the neoconservative vision for an independent Scotland? What does it involve?

      We’re all ears…

    136. Ruby says:

      Ian Brotherhood says:
      3 April, 2016 at 12:18 pm

      @NeoconNat –

      Where’s the neoconservative vision for an independent Scotland? What does it involve?

      We’re all ears…

      Ruby replies

      Oh no we’re not!

    137. louis.b.argyll says:

      Take Health & Safety,
      Much of the reasoning is based on the hierarchical nature of responsibility.
      The fact that extreme H&S exists is because profit-seeking companies have side-stepped (the Government/unions/the peoples’)common sense.

    138. Ruby says:

      Typing out the phrase ‘secret life’ made me think of the Leonard Cohen song ‘In My Secret Life’ Here are a couple of verses for you to enjoy.

      ‘Looked through the paper.
      Makes you want to cry.
      Nobody cares if the people
      Live or die.
      And the dealer wants you thinking
      That it’s either black or white.
      Thank God it’s not that simple
      In My Secret Life.

      I bite my lip.
      I buy what I’m told:
      From the latest hit,
      To the wisdom of old.
      But I’m always alone.
      And my heart is like ice.
      And it’s crowded and cold
      In My Secret Life.’

    139. FairFerfochen says:

      Rennie had to go to ninewells to get his back done!

      Must’ve been after lifting coal bags up Kelty hill.


      Anyone calling in is “just wrong”.

    140. gus1940 says:

      re Ken500 @ 7.10am

      What is seldom mentioned is what was possibly the biggest Asset Stripping exercise ever inflicted on Scotland:-

      When Thatcher introduced her Right to Buy policy instead of the proceeds being used by the relevant councils to build new housing for rental 100% of the Billions received from the sale of 10s of thousands of council houses in Scotland went straight to the WM treasury to be spent on Thatcher’s evil divisive policies.

      If that wasn’t an example of Asset Stripping I would like to know what is.

    141. Skooshcase says:

      @Bill at 9:50 am

      “Even Countryfile carries an SNP Bad story”

      It’s par for the course on that programme, Bill. When they deign to grudgingly do a Scotland item, often as not, it’s in the mould of, ‘Paaah! What a shit hole this place is! Let’s get back to our Green and Pleasant Land ASAP!’. The programme should, of course, be called ‘CountryofEnglandfile (with occasional forays into dark, dank and dangerous other-lands)’.

    142. FairFerfochen says:

      Well done George from fife for beautifully, elaborately and succinctly nailing Rennie bang smack in the middle of untrustworthy LibDems wall, preceded immedately, funnily enough by what could only have been Wullies mum imploring she was undecided but after listening taday “you’ll definitely be getting my vote.” ROFLMFAO!

      Not a car crash but damn as near it, watch yersel passin ninewells wullie coz as ye say The Scottish NHS is sh1te.

      Next week, SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon.

    143. Skooshcase says:

      Yon NeoconNat’s modus operandi is going to be an interesting watch. Is he/she, or isn’t he/she? Time will tell, no doubt. Stay tuned!

    144. Valerie says:


      Totally agree. Part of Thatchers RTB philosophy was also to persuade working class to own, and become Tory supporters.

      RTB has decimated this country and made everyone obsessed with owning good, renting bad, made Councils the landlord of last resort, and left Councils with huge unpaid debt on sold housing. There is an obsession with fencing, boundaries and looking down on renters. That witch knew what she was doing, and Blair carried it on.

      SNP promised to withdraw RTB as soon as they could, and I was slightly cynical if they would, but they did. I’m now a member of that political party.

    145. heedtracker says:

      If people choose to pickle their livers or eat too much, you can’t argue that they’re deprived.

      So why does this pickling of livers and eating too much only really affect the unemployed and the poorest in society?

      Its just another toryboy UKOK trope.

      No different from hard core yoon tories, red or blue bludgeoning the YES out of Scotland with biggest deficit in the west nightmare. All of it caused by a Scotland run by its neighbour and never ever mentioned is a awful example of slim, svelte like even unionist conservatives hammering away at his debt destroyed Scotland region, too small, poor, stupid and too fat.

    146. ArtyHetty says:


      Neoconnat is away for his/her lunch, they will clock off about 5pm, it’s Sunday.

    147. JGedd says:

      @Ruby 12.15pm

      ‘I don’t know if I as a heterosexual woman am convinced that a gay woman can represent me when it comes to women’s issues!’

      I am surprised that you say this. It’s surely down to the individual, as always. I don’t see why being gay should preclude anyone from representing women on feminist issues. I can think of plenty of heterosexual women who would not be representative of most women on feminist issues – one famously being Margaret Thatcher who had no sympathy for other women.

      Politicians should be judged on their actions, not sexual orientation. Just like everyone else.

      Unfortunately, it is just on those grounds, her political performance, that Kezia is failing.

    148. Muscleguy says:

      It’s happened! A SLAB guy just chapped my door and whilst restraining the dog* I was able to say “you’re off reservation aren’t you? Embra South’s thataway’. He thought it was ‘cruel’. But it was accurate.

      I then told him he had no chance in hell in the constituency or this house. My No voting wife doesn’t like them any more either.

      Just waiting for some SNP people so I can explain why I’m not voting for them in the constituency (She killed Margo’s assisted dying bill).

      *Can’t have him being friendly to SLABBers.

    149. heedtracker says:

      Just waiting for some SNP people so I can explain why I’m not voting for them in the constituency (She killed Margo’s assisted dying bill).

      So that’s why you’re not a SNP vote?

      One issue, makes little sense or maybe it does.

    150. Muscleguy says:

      Well firstly, just because I’m Yes doesn’t mean I have to be an SNP voter. I did most of my campaigning with RIC, I’m to the left of the SNP. Also actions like that need to have consequences. She may well have done it as an act of conscience (instead of representing her constituents) in which case I cannot voter for her in all good conscience.

      I don’t imagine the loss of my potential vote will have any actual cost of course. But I still cannot bring myself to vote for her.

      I have not seen a full list of those standing in the constituency yet so I cannot quiz others I might consider voting for on the issue, yet.

    151. heedtracker says:

      End is nye for Kez

      “The party’s Scottish leader was described by senior colleagues as “badly damaged” and accused of causing “an almighty clusterf**k” as she moved to clarify her stance on independence yesterday. It came after she made comments in an interview that internal critics believe could help the Tories overtake Labour to become the official opposition in the Scottish parliament in May.”

      You can just see blue tory carpet baggers in their Scotland region trying on their ermine right the now. Monster everything Scottish PR democracy, feed off the UKOK spoils. How frightfully tory.

    152. ArtyHetty says:

      Regards obesity, it is not as simple as saying people are so prosperous that they eat tons!

      Most people live sedentary lives unfortunately. Whether sitting in an office chair, on the settee watching the ebc, and then, sitting in a car seat to get around. Then, the cakes, chocolate, ice cream, sugar laden bread, ready meals, basically crao food, all adds hugely to the problem. Quite often it’s the crap food that the supermarkets have ‘on special’. Your frozen stuff, sweet laden anything. Vegetables are very often ridiculously over priced!

      We need a huge campaign to get people growing their own vegetables, instead of paving over every piece of garden, and letting so much land sit there empty, sometimes derelict. It’s criminal.

      If you look at some old film footage from the last century, people were dangerously thin, but you see the affluent are actually as overweight as people are today. It’s just that things have changed, the affluent can afford good food, they can afford gym, tennis, squash membership and are generally more confident in themselves, and more keen to live longer, as life is so good.

      The poor have fewer options, and feel defeated, disenfranchised and despondent. No holiday to look forward to, very little buying power, no gym nearby, no car to get anywhere. No incentive to keep healthy, so it’s a vicious circle of self destruct. With Iceland their local shop, it’s not a good outlook. Add to that the fact that many live in flats, (built on liebours watch) with limited access to green spaces, if any.

      The affluent tend to have gardens, live nearer to parks and green spaces. I often see very slim people jogging! Great, but it’s a fashion. It is like California without the sunshine, with the rich and their fancy expensive gear, armbands telling them how fit they already are, jogging along.

      It suits governments like UKok to have people generally living sedentary, inescapable, limited choices lives, otherwise a fit population might be in a less guilt ridden state, and they might stop buying all the crap, available at knock down prices.

      Ok, end of rant, must get out for a walk, but will turn the other way when passing the gravelled over, plastic grass, pocket handkerchief gardens round about. Even inspired myself to go sow some more seeds at the allotment. We need more allotments, but Scotland is ‘owned’ by the rich, not the ordinary people living in it.

    153. Famous15 says:

      There are times I know I cannot add clarity to a discussion. I only like canvassing in pairs because I know my interpersonal skills would not win votes.Moving on.

      Passing a live tv I saw a bit of a programme called “Homes under the Hammer” and the little bit I heard made Michele Thomson MP sound morally superior to Sister Theresa. It is a BBC programme and they smeared Thomson terribly on scant evidence.Oh the BBC hypocricy!

    154. JGedd says:

      Lallands Peat Worrier today on how Scottish Labour insiders have got the knives out for Kezia and are busily sticking them in her back by briefing against her.

      It is a particularly nasty propensity of Labour to do this, as he reminds us. It doesn’t make for a cohesive party but something else – doesn’t everybody usually avoid the kind of person who talks behind others’ backs? Not only is it an ignoble trait but it means you can’t be trusted.

      Old habits indeed.

    155. heedtracker says:

      Muscleguy says:
      3 April, 2016 at 1:48 pm
      Well firstly, just because I’m Yes doesn’t mean I have to be an SNP voter.

      It is interesting to see your reasoning though. Margo’s assisted dying bill was and is relatively important in this voyage to independence but try talking to medics about assisted dying. Its an eye opener and I’d vote nae too.

    156. Andrew Mclean says:

      I am confused, obesity is a medical condition brought on by a poor diet and lifestyle, eventually It will kill those who succumb, so it only can be considered an abomination, and if capitalism is the cause then capitalism surely is the root of all evil and should be cast down to the Pitts of Hell Fire.

    157. bookie from hell says:

      I’m uncomfortable with named person

      what if named person is pedo
      its state intervention

      scot gov needs to drop it

    158. Andrew Mclean says:

      Ruby 12:15,

      Your last sentence was out of order, the I realised you were being obtuse,
      So in that spirit, I think you would probably prefer a good strong man to do the hard political stuff, so you can consecrate on the cooking and kids?

    159. louis.b.argyll says:

      Bookie, surely you know about risk.

      If named person is ‘pedo’, as you say, then that’s criminal.

      Remember…most dangers come from close family, fact.

    160. Macart says:


      Pretty much spot on. 🙂

      Seems to be a popular tactic to use the SNPs own success against them.

      Division, planting seeds of doubt about the various strata of support enjoyed by the YES movement. A second indyref is almost inevitable and what better way to disrupt or delay its arrival than by using the natural rivalries of a party political election campaign to foment envy and dissention amongst partnerships.

      People need to be able to separate the two events, an election and a referendum, be able to vote their conscience without being made to feel guilty or antagonised/hounded about their choice.

      The importance of this? So folk can continue to work together from consensus both now and in the future. If someone in the YES camp wants to vote green or SSP, I’d not harangue them for it. As far as Labour and the other establishment parties are concerned, much of their own vote has already abandoned ship as Scottish politics reforms around parties which actually give a crap about the people and their governance.

      People will vote (quite rightly) in this election for those who provide policy they either agree with or at very least can live with. Folk are ALL different, with different priorities, different ideas for progress and different voices. Worth celebrating that difference I’d say.

      Leave the othering of folk over difference to old politics, a disgraced system and its devalued political support.

    161. galamcennalath says:

      heedtracker says:

      “End is nye for Kez”

      Kezia has been rather quiet since the ‘maybe indy’ story broke.

      I’m starting to feel sorry for her. Certainly SLab’s fundimental problems shouldn’t be laid at her feet. Their current state has its roots dating back to when she probably wasn’t even interested in politics!

      Murphy certainly made things worse for them. He drilled more holes in the hull than most. Corbyn has only recently heard that there is such a place as Scotland, it sometimes seems. Dugdale is little more than an observer!

    162. Andrew Mclean says:

      That is the reason I didn’t go to school, now I can’t even spell concantrate!

    163. Dan Huil says:

      Labour in Scotland are disintegrating. They’ve brought it on themselves. Many former labour supporters have come to the SNP; many more will do the same in future.

    164. Robert Kerr says:

      @Andrew McLean.

      Is “consecrate” correct or are you being obtuse?

      We are all vile Nat sis so perhaps “Kinder, Küche, Kirche” is appropriate.

      SNP SNP EU

    165. louis.b.argyll says:

      Many named and famed pillars of
      our communities HAVE ALREADY been convicted of evil manipulation
      of trust.
      Look at all the Shipman types over last 50 years.
      Jammy Saville, Rolf, Gary, Lords n Ladies,
      Church and sports.

    166. heedtracker says:

      galamcennalath says:
      3 April, 2016 at 2:29 pm
      heedtracker says:

      “End is nye for Kez”

      Kezia has been rather quiet since the ‘maybe indy’ story broke.

      I’m starting to feel sorry for her.

      No mercy, I say.

      Next 5 years are incredibly vital to Scotland and self rule. Polls look good but if red and blue yoon culture can claw back in to Holyrood and we are still governed by viceroy Fluffie Mundell, it doesn’t bear thinking about.

      She’s out of her depth or she really is a now not so secret YESer.

      You cant be both and lead SLab right now.

    167. NeoconNat says:

      Ian brotherhood, and all else, I am under no obligation to outline my vision for Scotland. It’s sufficient to point out that the so called left have been ripping us all off for decades. When you boil it right down, would you rather be governed by a phoney pretending he wants to help you as we have under Scottish Labour or someone who squarely and honestly encourages you to help yourself.

      Scotland has a huge amount going for it in terms of resources, and that includes natural, economic, human, cultural, and much else. I’m all for helping the real needy but people are at their happiest and most productive when they are engaged in the task of taking care of themselves.

      Those who have turned to drugs and alcohol and oblivion, aren’t on my priority list. I will concede that they are unfortunate victims of a system that either discouraged them to take part or made it impossible, though. Again, blame for that rests squarely on the left.

      Labour always depended on support from the impoverished, so it stands to reason that they wanted to protect their support-base by keeping people poor. It’s no coincidence that the poorest areas in Scotland are the areas that traditionally always voted Labour by huge majorities.

      As for those who have fallen between the cracks in the pavement over the years, I won’t pretend my heart bleeds. I’ve watched foreigners come over here with nothing but the clothes on their backs and set up businesses etc. — compared to where they came from, our streets are paved with opportunity and gold.

      The only difference between those groups of people are the ideas they carry in their minds. On one hand you have the belief that we are hard done by and victims, on the other you have people eager to take part, enthused with energy and the spirit of capitalism. Salmond put it best when he said we need to work as if we are in the early days of a better nation. We are.

    168. Andrew Mclean says:

      No Robert my £1:99 glasses from Aldi broke, gutted!

    169. NeoconNat says:

      Anyone who can afford to eat themselves to obesity, can afford to eat healthily.

    170. Andrew Mclean says:

      Neocon I wasn’t going to read your post as your last post had the sentence “the tories won the fight for the oo types”
      What planet do you live on? Such ignorance is unusual here!
      You certainly aren’t careing conservative are you a follower of Mr Leo Strauss per chance? If so you sick and need help!

    171. Dr Jim says:

      I’m not voting for the SNP this time because they won’t ban the sale of knives a young woman said to me this morning at the newspaper stand in Morrisons I think she only spoke to me because I was looking at the right newspaper Nudge Nudge

      I took out my pen and poked a hole in my paper and said “They’ll need to ban Biro’s as well then or the nail file in your bag or pointy umbrellas or the bread knife out of the kitchen, where do you stop?”
      If somebody wants to stab somebody else it’s not difficult to find or make an implement to do it with

      People vote for political parties for all kinds of reasons or vote against them for the same reasons and it makes you think maybe if folk wrote down say ten things, or an amount of their own choosing, that they want from their politicians and then count up how many of those things fit their own desires they could make their choice

      I’m still amazed in Scotland since the referendum their are still folk (Not counting Yoons) who, if the party they favoured yesterday became imperfect in their minds the next day, they would deny that party their vote on the basis of one issue, because if perfection is sought in a political party they should know that’s impossible

      If GOD can’t please all of the people all of the time, and in truth GOD doesn’t please hardly any of us any of the time

      How does anyone seriously expect a politician to work the miracles that GOD can’t

      I’m a SNP member so I hold my hands up to bias for that organisation, but I ask this question “Does any Independence seeking person think the SNP DON’T do the best job they can for Scotland in the circumstances they’re in”

      Not having a go at anybody here, it’s just sometimes Scotland reminds me of our Football where we’re incredibly successful at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory in the 90th minute because we took our foot off the gas or we thought it was all over

    172. Thepnr says:


      “I am under no obligation to outline my vision for Scotland.”

      Like the handle by the way, seems to suit you.

      To get to my point are you fucking joking? The rip off merchants are the right wing Tory/Banker/CEO/Lord/Lady and sundry. They have ripped Scotland and it’s people off for centuries.

      You won’t tell us “your vision” because your a coward.

      “Those who have turned to drugs and alcohol and oblivion, aren’t on my priority list.”

      Would appreciate a glimpse at your priority list, bet I can guess who is at the top.


    173. Ken500 says:

      Most of Westminster are alcoholics and drug abusers (Cameron/Osbourne). Psychopaths They abuse others. Child molesters, fraudsters and killers. Most of them should be in jail. The most vulnerable who need help are entitled to it, including alcoholics and drug abusers who can’t afford private treatment. ‘One chance’ total abstinence, to recover. Including counselling and programmes for obesity.

      Governments should have programmes and policies to ofset obesity. Control by taxes additional sugars in food and ‘loss leading’ alcohol sold at less than production costs. Everyone pays for it in higher taxes.

    174. call me dave says:

      GMS on radio shortbread this morning had the usual newspaper review featuring the basic SNP bad.

      Start 06:00mins in for a few minutes setting the scene using the new clusterf@@k word followed by Kez is not well, she caught the cold.
      Manna from heaven for Ruthie etc etc. Wee Rennie, mental health issues (not his).

      Paper review just after 1hr: 5mins in

      Dog micro-chipping and the NP legislation all rolled into one big bad government interfering scare. Thumb sucking alert!

      Newspapers in deep trouble… Shady deal with China… £10bn …ssh! Why were we not told, must be SNP bad and China toxic.

      Prof Curtis is a turnip fancier… or maybe tunnocks had to listen hard. 🙁

      Later on at 1hr:30mins the new J Hassan’s election diary a summary followed immediately at 1hr: 37mins by a bit of a discussion politics panel with the return of Mags Curran.

      Hinting that Kez was kinda new and fresh faced not a ‘machine politician’ so cut her a bit of rope. 🙂

      SNP cant lose unless Sturgeon learns to drive the popemobile over the Dalai Lama ( or similar words) 🙂

    175. galamcennalath says:

      heedtracker says:

      “… if red and blue yoon culture can claw back in to Holyrood … it doesn’t bear thinking about.”

      Yes, that is my big worry. No SNP majority, no Indy. Simple as that.

      IMO we need to achieve Indy in the next Holyrood parliament or there is a very real risk we never will.

      It worries me that ‘gradualists’ believe we can drift slowly but surely towards Indy by gathering more and more powers. Nae chance. WM will stop any further devo now.

      As for Kezia, she is the face of SLab, And Slab must be hammered into the dirt! However I still think she is just driftwood being carried towards the sink hole.

    176. K1 says:

      Bullshit torynat, the obesity causing diet IS the cheap crap full of shit. Poorer people have been kept poor by people wi your outlook, the very fact that you describe people from less off backgrounds as lacking in motivation and compare them to immigrant workers shows the limits of your own narrow outlook.

      Not everyone views themselves as ‘less than’ just because they’re poor, and not everyone who have been raised in so called better off backgrounds views themselves as ‘better than’.

      You frame your arguments in those terms, subtly. You’ve succumbed to the koolaid, ergo your Tory bent. But what was your background?

      Are you the ‘poor’ made good by ‘getting ahead’, or the ‘comfortable’ never ‘had tae think about it’?

      You’re like most Tories, class snobbery writ obvious in all yer comments. Nice of you to ‘select’ whose worthy of yer ‘pity’and who’s not.

      Dis it get dizzy looking down on everyone from your elevated status, coming on tae Wings tae preach from yer wee Tory Bible?

      Away ye go ya daft wee snob.

    177. K1 says:

      Why does it never occur to fuckwits that the mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters of those with alcohol or drug problems aren’t going to condemn those who have ‘fallen through the pavement cracks’ as not worthy of compassion?

      Only heartless bastards who’ve never lived with any kind of human failings/illnesses and who think they’re above human suffering think like this.

      That’ll be why we don’t vote Tory in Scotland, cause we give a fuck about All people.

    178. Thepnr says:


      There is no such sentiment as compassion in the heart of a true blue Tory.

      Me me me is all you can hear. What exactly is a Neo-Con?

    179. JGedd says:


      Agree entirely with your post. Simplistic ideas of what causes these health problems are all too prevalent and are reinforced by the media, in its worst forms, by rags like the Daily Mail and the disgustingly gloating ” poverty porn ” programmes on TV.

      As for NeoconNat, he/she seems to represent those voters who prefer the narrative which promotes the idea of misfortune being entirely the fault of the impoverished and thus feeds the self-righteousness of the more fortunate. People like that are not receptive to any argument which would present a more complex case for endemic disadvantage, so I would not even attempt to engage with him/her. ( I spotted several of the same old justifications in NeoconNat’s lengthy post after belligerently stating he/she would not enlarge on their previous post.)

      No one could predict what an independent Scotland would be like, so it’s perfectly acceptable that there should be those who are right wing voting for independence, hoping to influence outcomes, since that is their democratic right in what would be a new political landscape.

      While out canvassing in the recent referendum I was able to promote this point to those who were obviously right-wing in outlook. Those who were more open-minded than others acknowledged that this had not occurred to them and I was able to direct them to some helpful articles on Business For Scotland.

      If a genuine Yes voter then that’s fine, I don’t care why someone votes for independence since they don’t have to share my perspectives. A new Scotland is there to be shaped by all of us.

      Having said that, I find NeoconNat’s attitude less than convincing. He/she seemed more interested in stating their prejudices than any interest in what that new Scotland would look like. Seeking to promote more heat than light, Neocon?

    180. NeoconNat says:

      K1, I said they were not on my priority list, I didn’t say I didn’t have compassion. I sincerely wish those people made different choices like the immigrants who come here and go on to succeed in work, business, and society.

      As Salmond said, we need to work as if we are in the early days of a better nation. That’s the answer. He didn’t say we need to claim disability benefits and booze like we are in the early days of a better nation.

    181. Proud Cybernat says:

      LPW talking about Kez’s latest clusterf@#k:

      “One even described it as her “Subway moment”, recalling the moment when Iain Gray sought refuge behind a meatball marinara…”

      Seems appropriate somehow given that Kez has gone underground. (Note: ‘meatball marinara’ is NOT an allegory for Jackie Bailie. Just wanted to clear that up).

    182. Jack Murphy says:

      call me dave said at 3:01pm:”…………..bit of a discussion politics panel with the return of Mags Curran.”
      She’s back,a “return”?
      Save us—-pleeeze!

      I immediately thought of another “return” to the movies—a certain Norma Desmond.

      “Mr De-Mill,I’m ready for my Closeup”.

      FILM CLIP—–

    183. NeoconNat says:

      JGedd, you start by saying my views are irrelevant and that you don’t want to engage, then you finish by asking me questions? I eat well-meaning lefties like you for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

      Your viewpoint is essentially totalitarian and you refuse to accept that anything other than the evil capitalist system could possibly be responsible for the plight of losers.

      Yet, within the same system, you can’t explain why one disadvantaged man does well and goes on to thrive whilst another dies young with an addiction. I can, and the answer lies in taking responsibility and getting away from this philosophy of poverty that fills heads with the idea that they’re victims.

      If you’re obese and want to be slim, stop eating so much. If you’re a drug addict and want to take part in society, stop taking drugs. If you’re an alcoholic and you want a functioning liver, stop boozing. You don’t need to, though, that’s your choice and you are responsible if you choose badly, not capitalism.

      Existence precedes essence and each of us is 100% responsible for defining ourselves. As individuals and, come independence, as a country, we should celebrate the responsibility and stop blaming others. Existential nausea only hurts when you make bad choices.

    184. K1 says:

      Torynat, look at JGedds post above, you perpetuate a false ‘stereotype’ of those who have found themselves addicted, whether to drugs, alcohol, gambling and any other assortment of problems. You use the word ‘choice’, as if people ‘choose’ to become afflicted?

      What is your response then to those who walk in the corridors of power who are afflicted by these same ‘choices’. Is it their poverty and ‘lack of motivation’, that sits at the core of said problems?

      Your argument flounders because you reveal a dearth of understanding, you conflate poverty with ‘choice’ in the same way. You are ‘selecting” one part of the population and saying they created their own poverty or addiction, and for you they are not ‘priority’.

      Because you believe in a ‘narrative’ that has been widely disseminated by those who have vested interests in promoting social division:those who work, those who skive. Those who are on ‘benefits’ those who aren’t etc. etc.

      Does it never occur to you that these ‘artificial’ and ‘superficial’ constructs are what causes the ‘true’ divisions?

      Can you not see the human being beneath the ‘label’, that sectioning off and defining ‘others’ in this way creates a distorted view?

      How we become a better ‘nation’ can be defined by how we treat the ‘least fortunate’. To prioritise those who are in the most need of assistance is compassion.

      Now the ‘ideas’ surrounding how we set about ‘that’, is a different discussion and is debatable.

      But the premise has to start from compassion.

      Yours was about ‘pity’, you’re looking down torynat, you’re use of stereotypes is staggering. Try thinking things through, independently, put that mail doon.

    185. North chiel says:

      Anyone looking for the “illusive” Kezia today? She was ” canvassing” outside Buchanan st.
      subway around lunchtime today with her ” political partner” Jackie B ( Baillie not Bird).
      Perhaps she went ” underground” or possibly to the nearest ” subway” when JB became ” peckish”?

    186. Valerie says:


      Its hard for the child growing up with poor role models,limited choices money, to make a go of it.

      Look at George Osborne. Knowing his biography, his meteoric rise defies belief. His family money put him there, probably to avoid him bankrupting a lucrative business.

      Children grow up in misery, crime etc, it’s hard for them to lift their eyes. The path of least resistance is the well trodden one, as guided by those you know and trust, your family.

      Have a bit of understanding, or do some voluntary work, so you aren’t talking out of your arse.

      No one would dispute that we want a bright, vibrant and growing society, but you don’t leave folk behind.

      Salmond would be the first to say we offer a hand to help others up when they fall.

    187. Thepnr says:


      What’re you having for tea? Fried liver maybe?

    188. K1 says:

      ‘Existence precedes essence and each of us is 100% responsible for defining ourselves.’

      Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit.

      You don’t *know* what precedes what. Just guessing now Torynat?

      Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit.

      Are you 7 years old? The entire edifice of identity is predicated upon our conditioning. Our background defines our outlook, education shapes our aspirations, I could go on and on.

      We are defined by millions of influences, every single day, that’s why people can change their minds. And it’s why people can’t change their minds.

      You’re addicted to Tory propaganda, change your mind Torynat. Go on, it’s simple…just do it…nae probs eh?

    189. JGedd says:


      My question (singular) was rhetorical. Anyway, Neocon’s aggression proves my point. (Yawn).

    190. NeoconNat says:

      If I knew you were all going to prove to be so wrong and misguided I’d never have taken part in this stupid exchange.

      First of all, to label the line “existence precedes essence” as bullshit, reveals nothing but ignorance and disregard for one of the foremost thinkers of our age, Sartre, who in actual fact was a leftist.

      Secondly, nobody here has ever questioned the idea that our behaviour is constrained and affected by environmental factors. To do so would be stupid. But if you are suggesting that the opportunities or lack of them offered to working class people are so regressive as to make drug addiction and what not inevitable, then you are a fool.

      Many people from the lowest echelons of society go on to become successful and your dogma can’t explain that.

      If you look at what is offered to even the poorest here, in terms of health care, education, jobs, everything, from the point of view of most human beings on this planet, we are amongst the most pampered people in human history. Yet, according to you, life is so bad here that becoming a junkie would be an understandable choice to make.

      Capitalism is by no means perfect. I wouldn’t let it near health, defence, education, law and order, and other important stuff. And, as with any system, you will always get cheats. But the alternatives are all much worse and less conducive to freedom, creativity, and happiness.

      Before you all start hammering away at your keyboards and iPads, consider for a second where they and so much else you take for granted derived from.

      One other thing, those childish values you all wear on your sleeves like badges of superiority and honour, they are Christian values. You are replacing lost sheep with junkies and fat people, and that’s fine if it’s what you want to do, but the sheep you are chasing chose to be lost.

      Grow up.

    191. Ruby says:

      JGedd says:
      3 April, 2016 at 1:26 pm

      @Ruby 12.15pm

      ‘I don’t know if I as a heterosexual woman am convinced that a gay woman can represent me when it comes to women’s issues!’

      I am surprised that you say this. It’s surely down to the individual, as always. I don’t see why being gay should preclude anyone from representing women on feminist issues. I can think of plenty of heterosexual women who would not be representative of most women on feminist issues – one famously being Margaret Thatcher who had no sympathy for other women.

      Politicians should be judged on their actions, not sexual orientation. Just like everyone else.

      Unfortunately, it is just on those grounds, her political performance, that Kezia is failing.

      Ruby replies

      Maggie Thatcher was not a feminist as far as I know.

      Do you think being male should preclude anyone from representing women on women’s issues?

    192. Valerie says:


      Nasty piece, you are.

      With that kind of arrogant, nasty self regard, it’s a waste of time debating with you. Plenty like you out there on social media – me first types. Childish values? Caring? Having compassion?

      Away back to pulling wings off flies, or counting your money, or trolling Facebook pages.

    193. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Valerie & (JGedd over on O/T) –

      Yeah, youse are right.

    194. JGedd says:

      Ruby @6.03pm

      Do you think being male should preclude anyone from representing women on women’s issues?

      Was that a question to me, Ruby? If so, I don’t see that Kezia Dugdale’s sexual orientation stops her from being a feminist. She is a woman after all. Surely you don’t mean to be so prescriptive as to mean that only heterosexual women can understand women’s issues?

    195. call me dave says:

      Aye Margaret Patricia Curran V Gloria Swanson

      Here is her demise in 2015.

      Later unrepentent “Labour will be back” Aye right.

    196. K1 says:


      You ‘started’ this ‘stupid’ exchange.

      Just because you read Satre and he is of the ‘left’ doesn’t mean we all go…oooh…did he say that…oh well he must be correct.

      There has been much written since Satre on many of these philosophical questions, he isn’t the only ‘bible’ on these matters. You really should update your reading Torynat, and not assume that when someone questions something you state it as fact…it somehow imbues the questioner with ‘ignorance’. You just reveal what a snob you are with this patter.

      ‘But if you are suggesting that the opportunities or lack of them offered to working class people are so regressive as to make drug addiction and what not inevitable, then you are a fool.’

      Didn’t say any such thing, no one did, again you’re interpreting and revealing your own thinking Torynat. No one suggested that drug/alcohol addiction is a ‘choice’ only you persist in ‘defining’ these afflictions as if they are ‘choices’ and that you can ‘swap’ those choices for others when you feel like it. Nonsense.

      ‘Many people from the lowest echelons of society go on to become successful and your dogma can’t explain that.’

      No one has expressed ‘dogma’. Your definition of ‘successful’ again reveals your own thinking Torynat. You keep dealing in this same old tropes within the same old narrative, what or who creates these ‘echelons’? What or who ‘defines’ who’s in the upper and lower, the top, the bottom? What’s the criteria? Having money, property, a ‘good’ job.

      People are working like bastards for a pittance, and have to subsidised by the state Torynat, what or who causes that? Was that the ‘choice’ of the working classes? You mean work hard to become ‘middle class’? Is that ‘success’ then, when you arrive to believing that ‘you’ve made it’, cause you own a hoose wi some savings, is that it, is that what we have to ‘strive’ for to become succesful?

      ‘If you look at what is offered to even the poorest here, in terms of health care, education, jobs, everything, from the point of view of most human beings on this planet, we are amongst the most pampered people in human history. Yet, according to you, life is so bad here that becoming a junkie would be an understandable choice to make.’

      That old ‘comparison’ chestnut, you really need to put that Daily Mail doon Torynat. You don’t do ‘relative’ do you? That’s some mind that can make out that those who are suffering are doing it deliberately to avoid ‘getting ahead in life’. Yer no the nuanced thinker ur ye? I’ve already stated that it is not ‘choice’ and others have outlined many factors that are at the root.

      I note here, that you don’t comment on those walking the corridors of power wi their addictions, how do you ‘square’ this? They fit your worldview of ‘success’ but are some of the most ‘damaged’ people you could ever come across? Should we aw strive to become an MP Torynat…of the Tory variety, cause of course they too have had the ‘best’ education and the ‘best’ healthcare’ and so on…and yet they too have ‘junkies’ and worse within their establishment and their families, life’s that ‘bad’ for them that they ‘chose’ to snort the stuff and procure some of the worst practises known to humanity for the leisure activities.

      But of course I ‘know’ what you mean. They’re who we’ve to ‘look up tae’ as measures of ‘success’.

      ‘Capitalism is by no means perfect. I wouldn’t let it near health, defence, education, law and order, and other important stuff. And, as with any system, you will always get cheats. But the alternatives are all much worse and less conducive to freedom, creativity, and happiness.’

      Oh right? Cause it’s not as if it is near any of those ‘precious’ areas. There’s mair cheats within the entire upper echelons of Westminster including the Lairds than there is within the general population per capita. That last sentence is just a fucking joke. Yeah?

      ‘Before you all start hammering away at your keyboards and iPads, consider for a second where they and so much else you take for granted derived from.’

      Freedom, creativity and happiness are not borne of any ‘system’ of government and no one here suggested they were. They are intrinsic ‘states’ that can be enhanced or destroyed depending on internal and external factors, we here discuss the merits of having our own governance within our own polity.

      We think there is a better ‘means’ of bringing about a lessening of the deliberate ‘hardships’ economically imposed on us from the Westminster ‘system’ of governance.

      Not because we ‘think’ it will make us more ‘free’ or more ‘creative’ or more ‘happy’, but because it will free us ‘from’ the dictates of a system that ensures one part of society, ‘the upper echelon’, is the sole recipient of the wealth that millions of others who are deliberately placed in ‘the lower echelon’ have created. Inequality, inequity has a huge influence of whether people are free to live creative and ‘happier’ life’s.

      ‘One other thing, those childish values you all wear on your sleeves like badges of superiority and honour, they are Christian values. You are replacing lost sheep with junkies and fat people, and that’s fine if it’s what you want to do, but the sheep you are chasing chose to be lost.

      Grow up.’

      Really, so you just can’t move away from your own narrow ‘choice’ as the reason’ for all the ‘bad’ things people do and this justifies your heartless snobbery Torynat.

      And yer a bad loser tae boot.

      Be ye as little children afore’ ye enter the gate’s o’ heaven.

    197. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @K1 (7.11) –

      Hear hear.

    198. Ruby says:

      JGedd says:
      3 April, 2016 at 7:03 pm

      Ruby @6.03pm

      Do you think being male should preclude anyone from representing women on women’s issues?

      Was that a question to me, Ruby? If so, I don’t see that Kezia Dugdale’s sexual orientation stops her from being a feminist. She is a woman after all. Surely you don’t mean to be so prescriptive as to mean that only heterosexual women can understand women’s issues?

      Ruby replies

      Sure it was a question to you JGedd!

      It depends on the women’s issues!

      I have no idea what it means to be a gay woman and therefore I would not be qualified to to represent gay women nor would I be qualified to represent men with regard to men’s issues.

      Are you saying that all women no matter their sexual orientation encounter the same problems?

      I would think a lot of heterosexual women’s problems would be about sexual attraction/lack of which is a whole different ballgame if you are gay.

      For example if you are gay you would be less likely to be sexual harrassed by your dominant male boss or you wouldn’t have the problem of being sexually attracted to your male boss.

      Perhaps if you are a gay woman you would be more aggressive and perhaps find it easier to succeed in a male dominated world.

    199. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ K1

      Oooft! Dinnae hawd back, maun! Much applause.

    200. Andrew Mclean says:

      Do you honestly think a old pervert boss would hesitate for a second just because the woman was gay you are seriously deluded. And last I heard no one has went to their MP or MSP to discuss their attractiveness or lack off!

      I take my hat off to you for even replying to that political novice new con, actually I think he’s quite young so I refrained from obscenitys he richly deserved.

    201. Ruby says:

      Andrew Mclean says:
      3 April, 2016 at 8:03 pm

      Do you honestly think a old pervert boss would hesitate for a second just because the woman was gay you are seriously deluded. And last I heard no one has went to their MP or MSP to discuss their attractiveness or lack off!

      Ruby replies

      I have absolutely no idea! I haven’t a clue how the male brain works vis a vis gay women nor do I know what it’s like to be a gay woman.

      Perhaps the best solution would be if there were two separate movements one for lesbians and one for straight women. I can’t say I’m all that happy with the radical feminist movement so if lesbians wanted to claim that movement for themselves that would be fine with me perhaps they already have.

      “Lavender menace.” That’s what National Organization for Women (NOW) president Betty Friedan called the “threat” from lesbians to the newly formed second-wave feminist movement in 1969. Friedan, bolstered by other straight feminist leaders, believed that butch lesbians would damage the image of radical feminism with their “mannish” looks and “man-hating” behavior.

    202. JGedd says:

      Hi, Ruby

      Some of your quibbles surprise me. Not being a gay woman either I would still think that some of those instances you mention would be the same whether the individual is heterosexual or gay. I could certainly imagine a gay woman being subjected to harrassment at work by a male, or female, boss. Surely the situation would be the same.

      “Perhaps if you are a gay woman you would be more aggressive and perhaps find it easier to succeed in a male dominated world.”

      Really, Ruby, do you want to think that one out again? ‘A gay woman would be more aggressive’? This is getting dangerously near to an old-fashioned stereotype.

      I don’t think you are old-fashioned or think in stereotypes usually so I am slightly taken aback. Gay women are first of all women and as individuals can be as alike or unlike one another as heterosexual women. As far as I am aware, gay women can suffer sexual abuse, personal abuse and discrimination just like hetero women and they can be mothers, too. They can be disappointed in love and have emotional stress and PMT, the menopause and all the troubles that female flesh is heir to!

      And yes, I know, Margaret Thatcher was not a feminist! The point I was making was that being a heterosexual woman did not make her any more empathetic to those who shared her gender – quite the opposite.


    203. Smithie says:

      Well said

    204. smithie says:

      GRRRR jeezus Ruby well said , sorry

    205. K1 says:


      ‘I would think a lot of heterosexual women’s problems would be about sexual attraction/lack of which is a whole different ballgame if you are gay.’


    206. Ruby says:

      JGedd says:

      Really, Ruby, do you want to think that one out again? ‘A gay woman would be more aggressive’? This is getting dangerously near to an old-fashioned stereotype.

      I don’t think you are old-fashioned or think in stereotypes usually so I am slightly taken aback

      Ruby replies

      Well yes when in comes to lesbians I am probably ‘old fashioned’ if that means I haven’t a clue.

      I really don’t know many lesbians. Do you?

      Ruth Davidson sitting astride a tank and Susan Calman’s ‘comedy’ routines are all the exposure I’ve have had to lesbians.

      I have also read ‘Tipping the Velvet’ but that was a long time ago.

    207. NeoconNat says:

      K1, as it happens, the only thing you say in that long diatribe worth responding to was one of the first things you said. The rest of it is just another big self-aggrandising letter telling the world that you think we should all be nice like you. I’ll address that idea too, for what it’s worth.

      With regards to Sartre, his emphasis on responsibility is the only aspect of his philosophy that I really agree with. I’m not his biggest fan. You described the keystone of his philosophy (in fact, the keystone of existentialism per se) as bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. That makes you the one who has an over-inflated sense of intelligence and importance.

      As for being nice to the poor or those on the lower rungs, I think it is clear that throwing welfare at people and telling them they are victims of capitalism doesn’t work. We know it doesn’t work because we have tried it and it is in those conditions we have watched so many turn to drugs, drink, and unproductive idleness.

      All those people out there who are caught in what they call the poverty trap would be better off, happier, and have greater self respect, if they worked for the money they needed to get by. I’ll be upfront and clear here; if you are on benefits and earning say £180 per week, I think you’d be better off working for £180 week even if on paper it made you no better off. Instead of daytime TV and Atos, they’d have cars and iPhones and — crucially — useful skills.

      Society too would benefit, as would their famillies and the local community. After a year or two, I expect many of this new workforce would win promotion and earn more money, many would go on to start their own businesses, and overall productivity and consumer spending would rise dramatically. Spending on welfare would fall too, allowing us to spend more on those who really do need help and other things. All good.

      It’s my contention that the scenario I have outlined above, crudely put as it may be, is actually more compassionate and caring towards the disadvantaged than your blanket judgement that they are incapable victims of the evil system. I believe you mean well, but when you look at outcomes we need to face the truth and admit that this permanent underclass of welfare queens is good for nobody, especially those on the receiving end.

      I pray that when we win independence people will demand to take part instead of just sitting on the sidelines hoping their benefits will go up.

    208. Andrew Mclean says:

      Neoconservative fool,
      You are either very young or very stupid, either way you appear to have no real life experience, you’re rambling diatribe is taken from UKIP right wing claptrap, when you get some more life experience you will see that life is rather more complicated than you portray.

    209. Rock says:


      “The rip off merchants are the right wing Tory/Banker/CEO/Lord/Lady and sundry. They have ripped Scotland and it’s people off for centuries.”

      The likes of “Business for Scotland” and “Lawyers for Yes” fall within that group.

      They make a killing while others go hungry.

      Hundreds of thousands in Scotland are poor because those ones are rich.

      But it is difficult for ‘socialists’ like yourself and Ian Brotherhood to agree with anything I say.

      Like Scottish Labour can never agree with anything the SNP says or does, never mind if it benefits the people of Scotland.

    210. Paula Rose says:

      Where’s the £180 benefits that allows me to sit and watch TV all day? Sign me up!

    211. Ian Brotherhood says:


      The tag team has appeared…

      ‘NeoconNat & Rock’ – Scotland’s very own Hinge & Brackett.

      Away and sort yersels oot, heid-the-ba’s…

    212. K1 says:


      What Andrew said. There’s just nay talking to your mentality. Yer a wee tory snob whose bloated sense of superiority shines through all you write. Yer very typical of your type in this regard. Guid luck wi that part of living life wherein we are at the mercy of the inevitable suffering that comes to all of us. If ye think money and jobs and all manner of right wing rhetoric shields you from that then you really are a ‘fool’.

      You reveal a deeply disturbing lack of compassion for your fellow human beings and as long as you ‘couch’ that in the simplistic worldview that you espouse some may be taken in with your ‘intellectual’ surface knowledge and yer application of what ye were taught ‘to’ think about.

      But you’ll never be free and spontaneous and kind with whoever is in front of you as you’ll be too caught in your own fragmented and limiting viewpoint to see the human in front of you, blinded as you are by your own snobbish labelling of those you regard as ‘less than’ you.

      There’s mair tae success Torynat that bandying aboot a concept that was a ‘hand me down’ from yer own upbringing. You are as bereft of insight as ye are of kindness. Shame really, just stick to who and what you think you know, that’s clearly comforting tae y…eat yer cereal, there’s a good wee Torynat.

    213. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @NeoconNat –

      There is a ‘Scottish’ voice well-kent globally.

      You represent it perfectly:

      Pink Floyd, ‘Another Brick In The Wall’ –

    214. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @NeoconNat –

      Here’s one for you (and your ‘Rock’) to get nostalgic over.

      It’s only for ‘the upper bracket’, yah?

      Hinge & Bracket ‘Emva Cream’ ads –

    215. NeoconNat says:

      I guess the insults and allusions to my background and upbringing, rather than the substance of what I said, indicates that I won the debate.

      You were correct about one thing; my lack of compassion for strangers who, despite having chances in life that the majority of mankind could only dream of, decided to become drug and alcohol addicts. I won’t patronise you or them by pretending I care.

    216. K1 says:

      And that folks… concludes this evening of: ‘Discussions with a wee snobby tory masquerading as a Independence supporter…’

      A tory walks into a crowd of people, ordinary people and decides just by ‘looking’ at them…who’s worthy, who’s not…just by ‘criteria’ existing in it’s* heid that it’s gleaned from the papers that it reads, no doubt layered with it’s unique and 100% defined by itself ‘rightness’ of view.

      It scans the environment looking for ‘precisely’ what it regards as it’s ‘kind of people’…the rest are just ‘strangers’…if they ‘look’ a certain way or behave in ways that the tory has prejudged as ‘lower than’ itself, it dismisses them as ‘people who made the wrang choices in life’, and of course it should know, cause this tory has made aw the right choices, it’s a good wee tory and believes fully in its own superior position.

      Finally this tory tops it off by declaring the full absurdity of its stance by proclaiming to all who look on that it’s a person with arguments of ‘substance’, and that naebdy unerstauns it’s lack of compassion which it ‘self righteously’ boasts about as it tells everyone who spoke to it…how they’re aw wrang about it and how it won a ‘debate’ that it never even had.

      Thanks Torynat…ye jist declared yersel’ totally bereft of humanity and proud ye are tae o’ that. Whit a shining beacon of shite ye are…

      * it/it’s/its refers throughout this piece to the ‘person’, as we don’t know whether it is he/she

      Nae mair.

    217. Andrew Mclean says:

      No conservative just fascist!
      With that last statement you provide the final evidence that you have never lived, I did take you as the product of a expensive private education, however as your own words condemn, you obviously have no experience at debate, this failure on your part proves you have no understanding of dialectic, therefore not educated in the least.

      I did you the courtesy of reading your thoughts, however repeatedly you made assertions that were so tedious or just stupid they were not deserving of my time.

      As for the core of your philosophy, I will wait till you attempt to start your own company, as I am sure it will fail, who would work for a person like you, and that brings me on nicely to your lack of ethos, and Rock who has nothing but, you two would get on great!

    218. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @meself –

      Correction: ‘Whinge & Bracket’.

    219. NeoconNat says:

      Endeavour to persevere… If I’m simply bereft of humanity and mistaken in my views, then I’m sure you’ll forgive me just as you forgive the morons who over-indulge in drugs and alcohol and expect society to compensate them for doing so.

      Interesting that your compassion doesn’t seem to extend to the lives these people ruin, their families pay the biggest price, not to mention the damage done to innocent bystanders who at the very least will pay for all this through taxation.

      Seems like you are the one deciding who is and is not worthy of compassion. Anyone who succeeds in life in any way is to be hated; their role is to pay up, shut up, and quietly suffer this insanity.

      Tell me something, do you ever wonder where the taxes come from? By extension, do you ever wonder where your next meal will come from? All that health care, law and order, the clothes on your back, the foundations of society, all the trivial stuff, do you ever wonder who pays for it?

    220. Andrew Mclean says:

      neocon nat
      I will make this quick.

      I don’t forgive your ignorance.

      Your proposition of over indulging with drugs and alcohol is morally corrupt as it suggests using drugs is ok.

      You are on the wrong site if you think anyone here would not fell compassion from those families whose lives are affected by the actions of others, it is actually our raison d’être.

      How do you know what we hate, it certainly is not just anyone who succeeds, but those who succeed by tramping on others.

      Your final question where do taxes come from is stupefying in its banality, incompetent in its delivery, and obviously from the mind of one who has just discovered the world. You have the arrogance of youth, without intelligence.

      Finally I urge you to reread what you posted, I am sure you will eventually realise you propose nothing, you formulate no argument, forward no cause, and embarrass us both, you by what you write and I by answering such drivel.

    221. K1 says:

      Aw c’mon Ian B, ‘Whinge ‘n Hatchet’… shurely?

    222. K1 says:

      Ye see how it all came down to: fat, losers and morons? Beware Tories boring us wi their stupidity on stilts. Thinly non veiled hate on show right there folks, a ‘class’ act.

      Well said Andrew.

    223. Fred says:

      Were Hinge & Bracket lesbians afore their time? 🙂

    224. K1 says:

      They were men Fred. That was their ‘stage persona’s’, look it up on wiki. 😉

    225. NeoconNat says:

      Andrew McLean: “Your proposition of over indulging with drugs and alcohol is morally corrupt as it suggests using drugs is ok.”

      Actually, I haven’t once based anything I have said on morality, relied on any moral arguments, or suggested there was anything moral or immoral about the use or over-use of drugs or alcohol.

      You were quite wrong to suggest otherwise. In actual fact, I’m not a very moral person when it comes down to it. I don’t think moral questions arise in regards to over-eating, over-drinking, or over-drugging. Do you?

      One of the points I made earlier was that a lot of what others on here say is couched in Christian morality — I specifically and somewhat scornfully referenced the parable of the lost sheep.

      The point I have tried to make, which has been somewhat bastardised by various people, is that there are too many people who have become dependent on welfare and that they would be better off if they were not. I think they would be better off, their families would be better off, and society would be better off, if they worked and took part in society to a greater extent. I don’t say that from a moral standpoint though.

      That conversation quite predictably ended up going to extremes whereby the issue of people who chose to become drug addicts, alcoholics, and obese were presented as exceptions to the rule who were in some way deserving of a whole distinct set of rules. I disagree.

      I don’t think you wake up one day and discover you are a drug addict or obese. Getting there takes time and effort. Again, I stress, this isn’t a moral argument; it makes little difference to me except perhaps in taxes what shape Billy Bloggs from Barmulloch is or what he injects into his veins.

      I have every right to say that I think Billy Bloggs would be happier and healthier if he didn’t eat so much or if he tried to curtail his consumption of heroin, though. If he ignores that advice, I really don’t think I and other taxpayers along with the rest of society should encourage him by giving him benefits. I’ll go further, I think you’d be doing him a favour if you made him work for the money he needed to get by.

    226. Andrew Mclean says:

      New kid on the block, I will stop you there, again and again you show yourself to be a fool, so as I am not mistaken for one too, I will no longer respond to your nonsense, bygone imbecile!

    227. K1 says:

      Yes drug addicts, alcoholics, obese people, or as you call them: junkies, fat morons and losers, should just be left to die on our streets, cause they deserves no assistance from tax payers. Tally ho!

      Go on…go on…go on…boast some mair about how proud ye are of having no trace of humanity within your fractured and damaged perceptions.


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