Put in our place
Posted on
December 09, 2015 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
So now Scotland knows where it stands. Alistair Carmichael is innocent.
There’s officially nothing wrong with a minister of the UK government deliberately lying in an attempt to undermine the democratically-elected First Minister of Scotland before a general election, smearing foreign ambassadors in the process, then openly admitting his wrongdoing but refusing to stand down, flicking two fingers at his own constituents and the whole country.
Right you are, then. Duly noted. On we go.
Disgusted does not cover it, absolutely mortified by this.
Horrific. Not unexpected but still horrific.
Where is the justice in this?
Tugs forlock.
Tugs forelock.
Disgusted, but not surprised.
How it works. UKOK
http://news.channel4.com/election2015/04/05/update-931/
UK’s rules and UK rules.
The next test for Carmichael is if he chooses to stand again at a general election, and if so, how many vote for him. Or indeed, if he stays the course until another general election. His honesty stock is at rock bottom.
P: So much for the Unionist smear that one judge is an SNP-voter. Then again, Unionists follow the example of those they elect.
In the short term we must support the petitioners. They must not be punished financially for standing up to political corruption.
They did what they did for all of us.
He’s finished regardless. Doubt if many islanders were happy at his votoing for air strikes either. No matter.
The only thing left for any decent minded person up here, is to ensure that the constituents are not out of pocket. I’ve not yet seen the outcome re costs, so this may be a moot point. Rev???
Carmichael, the man who told lies. He has openly admitted that is the case. That is what he will always be known for. So it should be.
Another nail in the coffin of this unwanted tawdry ‘union’ with England. If this makes you angry (and it should), then get revenge by voting SNP/SNP in May 2016. Nothing would scare the BritNAT establishment (and especially George Osborne and his red tory accolytes) more than an increased SNP presence at Holyrood.
Full summary here
A petition challenging the election of Alistair Carmichael as Liberal Democrat MP for Orkney and Shetland has been refused after judges ruled it had not been proved beyond reasonable doubt that he had committed an “illegal practice”.
Following an evidential hearing in proceedings brought by a number of constituents, the Election Court held that Mr Carmichael was duly elected and that his election was not void in terms of section 106 of the Representation of the People Act 1983.
Lady Paton and Lord Matthews had previously ruled that “a false statement by a candidate about his own personal character or conduct made before or during an election for the purpose of affecting his return at the election has the effect of engaging section 106” of the 1983 Act, but ordered that evidence be led to assist in the resolution of the two remaining issues, namely: did the words complained of in the petition amount to “false statements of fact…in relation to the personal character or conduct” of the first respondent?; and were the words complained of uttered “for the purpose of affecting the return of any candidate at the election”?
On the first issue, the court observed that the first respondent [Mr Carmichael] had told a “blatant lie” when, in the course of a Channel 4 interview on Sunday 5 April 2015, he claimed that he had only become aware when contacted by a journalist of a memo leaked to the press by his special adviser Euan Roddin, which stated that First Minister and leader of the SNP Nicola Sturgeon had told the French ambassador that “she’d rather see David Cameron remain as PM”.
Lady Paton said: “There is no dispute that the words ‘I told you the first I became aware of this, and this is already on public record, was when I received a phone call on Friday afternoon [i.e. Friday 3 April 2015] from a journalist making me aware of it’ constituted a false statement of fact, in other words, a lie. Obviously the first respondent had been aware of the existence of the memo and its contents as described to him by Mr Roddin since the flight to the Faroe Islands in March 2015. Moreover he had authorised Mr Roddin to release the memo to the Daily Telegraph.”
However, on the matter of whether the lie could properly be characterised as a false statement of fact “in relation to [his] personal character or conduct”, the judges were left with a reasonable doubt.
“It is of the essence of section 106 that it does not apply to lies in general: it applies only to lies in relation to the personal character or conduct of a candidate made before or during an election for the purpose of affecting that candidate’s return,” Lady Paton said.
The judges gave some examples of what might be regarded as false statements of fact in relation to personal character or conduct.
They explained that if a candidate made a false statement that he would never leak an internal confidential memo, no matter how helpful that might be to his party, as he regarded the practice of leaking confidential information as dishonest and morally reprehensible, and he would not stoop to such tactics, when in fact that candidate had leaked an internal confidential memo containing material which was inaccurate and highly damaging to an opponent, they would be likely to conclude that the candidate had given a false statement “’in relation to [his] personal character or conduct” because he would be falsely holding himself out as being of such a standard of honesty, honour, trustworthiness and integrity that, in contrast with what others in Westminster might do, he would never be involved in such a leaking exercise.
“In the present case, when speaking to the Channel 4 interviewer, the first respondent did not make such an express statement about his personal character or conduct,” Lady Paton continued. “We are not persuaded that the false statement proved to have been made was in relation to anything other than the first respondent’s awareness (or lack of awareness) of a political machination. Accordingly we are not satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that the words used by the first respondent amounted to a ‘false statement of fact in relation to [his] personal character or conduct’. It follows that we are not satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that an essential element of section 106 has been proved. Even if we were to apply a lesser standard of proof (i.e. the civil standard of ‘on a balance of probabilities’), we would not be satisfied that the first respondent has been proved to have made a ‘false statement of fact in relation to [his] personal character or conduct’ in the course of the Channel 4 news interview…”
That conclusion was sufficient for the resolution of the case, but for completeness the court gave its views on other matters.
On the second issue, the judges were satisfied that it had been proved beyond reasonable doubt that the first respondent made the false statement of fact “for the purpose of affecting (positively) his own return at the election”.
Lady Paton said: “As the first respondent said in evidence, he wanted public attention to remain focused on that important political message, rather than becoming side-tracked by revelations that it had been he and his special adviser Mr Roddin who had leaked the memo to the Daily Telegraph. In his view, if public attention remained focused on that political message, voters who had anxieties about Scottish independence might find voting for the SNP a less attractive prospect…The inescapable inference, in our opinion, is that if the SNP became a less attractive prospect, the first respondent’s chances of a comfortable majority in what had become a ‘two-horse race’ in Orkney and Shetland would be enhanced.”
Furthermore, the judges considered that the evidence established that there was another purpose underlying the false statement, namely a desire not to be identified as being involved in the leak.
“Thus on the basis of all the evidence led before us we are satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that another purpose underlying the false statement was self-protection (a self-protection extending to Mr Roddin, provided that neither of them could be identified). Such self-protection would avoid attracting critical comment, losing esteem in the public eye, and being the subject of any disciplinary consequences, all at a very inconvenient time during the lead-up to the election. Such self-protection would avoid his presenting as a less attractive electoral candidate for the voters in Orkney and Shetland.”
Quelle Surprise!
I cannot say I am surprised at all by this. I expected this to happen sadly.
Well done to the establishment, only those outside can be guilty of lying, cheating, deception…….
Merry Christmas Michael
With lots of love from the British establishment x
Absolutely shocking, but unfortunately, not very surprising.
Democracy in action or is that inaction?
He may be “innocent” in law, but in the public eye he is finished. He will be rewarded with ermine why, because he has proved that any politician can say anything they like they are safe. Once the snout is in the trough the morals are chucked.
I think the Northern Ilse Liberals should just arrange their goodbyes now.
Only one thing for it, Wingers. Let’s do what we do best – let’s get that Orkney 4 campaign fund up as fast as we can.
For one thing we can’t leave these brave souls out of pocket.
And for another, we need to show the corrupt, self-serving Establishment that we mean business.
Even if you’ve already contributed, please, please take the time to throw in another £1 or £2, if you can. It all adds up – and we need to show “movement” and determination.
This is a scandal of enormous proportions.
The Election Court had their say today.
Orkney and Shetland voters can have their say at the Holyrood elections next May.
The people of Orkney and Shetland should take a stand on honesty and probity in their elected representatives, and refuse to recognise Carmichael as their MP.
The petitioners should refuse to pay his excessive and onerous costs. What can the Law do? Put them all on trial and jail the lot?
Here’s the link:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-people-versus-carmichael#/
In May at the ballot…
… ROOT AND BRANCH.
stunned at the verdict but not surprised – we get the message lying is ok so long as you keep it up and your friends back you with their lies and you can lie with a straight face – oh and you are part of the establishment
If they still think we will eventually give up and get back in the box, they are in for a big shock. Keep the pressure on folks, the establishment is weakening. Their grip on Scotland lessens by the day. The panicked errors of judgement grow in seriousness and frequency. It’s only a matter of time before they screw up really badly. In the short term, let’s make this awful ruling work to our advantage.
Thrown out or not guilty? Interesting spin from these con artists
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/dec/09/alistair-carmichael-lib-dem-election-court-throws-out-attempt-to-unseat-mp
Disappointed but reading the judgement does Carmichael no favours at all.
OK….find out the Bill and we will all pay it fast. Wings can organise it.
I knew he was innocent all along, after all we do live in a democracy! Grrrrr
Just donated to the crowdfunder.
Words seem utterly useless.
Roll on May.
???
#Carmichael did lie in a bid to affect his return in election, judges rule; but because it wasn’t about “personal conduct”, petition falls.
“… Accordingly we are not satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that the words used by the first respondent amounted to a ‘false statement of fact in relation to [his] personal character or conduct’…”
In my book this is a “not proven verdict” which still means he is probably guilty in law.
In the court of public opinion and political debate he is undoubtedly guilty and now one of the walking dead.
An embarrassment to Scotland and his constituents. A man with no shame.
Another example of the law being written in such a way that the justice delivered does not meet the needs & expectations of the general population
A parable:
A man was caught stealing. He lied that he was guilty. When proven to be the thief the judge decreed he was a free man and could leave the court, because it could not be ascertained whether he had stolen for his own benefit or as a gift to give other parties.
Black Joan,
Thanks for posting that. Their website is having problems loading the page!
So, he is officially a “blatant” liar, but because he didn’t actually claim that he wasn’t a blatant liar, that’s ok?
Absolutely foul and disgusting.
Obviously I wanted the Orkney4 to win, but I can’t help but take some joy that this liar gets to keep his privileged position to highlight, on a daily basis, what no voters stand for.
I make the link to No voters deliberately.
This will only help turn our target audience (the tricked, conned and I’ll informed) to join our Movement.
The joy.
It’s an utter sham. I’m beginning to believe we will NEVER ever reach a point where we can run this country in a fair, transparent manner for the people and not the judges, military, corporations and bankers.
Fed up with it all, frankly.
In reality I suspect a number of SNP politicians are breathing a sigh of relief today. There but for the grace of God and all that.
What a useless law. Lying for self-protection to directly influence the election outcome is not enough on its own.
The Liberal Democrats in Scotland will not be thanking Carmichael come next May. In particular, the five LibDem MSP’s at Holyrood will be cursing him when they are ejected from the Gravy Train in May 2016.
Peat Worrier has just posted this link to a pdf. version.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_ihJC6heTP3d2daV1RuWjkzcFk/view?pli=1
The Judiciary website has never been so overwhelmed!
Just made another donation to the fighting fund, c’mon folks let’s get it up over £200k in the next few days. And vote SNP/SNP. And join the SNP if you haven’t already. And do some campaigning, deliver leaflets, anything. Everybody is needed now and until we get out of this shitty union.
Quotes “On the second issue, the judges were satisfied that it had been proved beyond reasonable doubt that the first respondent made the false statement of fact “for the purpose of affecting (positively) his own return at the election”.
Charmichael’s position is pretty much untenable, despite the verdict.
I hope the Church of Scotland are proud of their church ELDER!
Lies through his teeth, then votes to bomb innocent children in Syria. Begs the question ” Does the Church of Scotland have any credibility left”??
Support the 4!!
No surprise there as someone said the four should refuse to pay for his lies and see what the court will do to them.
Disgusting, but entirely predictable.
And clearly a precedent that compromises the neutrality of civil servants has been set.
Oh wait, they did that already by handing out awards to the Treasury Team post-referendum..
..and by saying that if the ‘territorial integrity of the state is impugned’ then neutrality was a no-no.
End this corrupt union, and do it right soon.
Presumably we have to wait for detailed judgement at noon before decision as to costs is clear.
Carmichael is cleared on the strict letter of the law but the additional comments that Lord Matthews and Lady Paton chose to make should have him squirming.
Please Mr Carmichael, please please please DO NOT resign!
I beg you Sir, stay in post, please.
I’m amazed at the Kafkaesque language in the BBC News article on this:
“His lawyers argued his actions were political, and did not affect his re-election.”
I can’t wrap my head around that one.
Can they appeal this judgement? The investigation has revealed some useful information which might be of use in another action if a different question was asked.
So, guilty of lying to affect the course of the election, but escaping on a technicality.
A sad day for democracy.
STV News ?@STVNews 6m6 minutes ago
Carmichael: ‘The case was politically motivated. It is a mark of the unhealthy polarisation of Scottish politics’
You can lie with impunity but its Scottish politics thats to blame.
beyond reasonable doubt
it was a high hurdle,political,personal
but the petitioners did get him to admit he’s a LIAR,in court
I will contribute to fund once I know total costs of case
Sadly it was always more likely he’d get off, and it is too much to expect him to “do the right thing” despite the fact his reputation is now worth nothing.
Given the success of crowd funding, perhaps we should crowd-fund some unemployed actor to follow him everywhere with a sandwich board saying “Liar Carmichael Must Go” until he does stand down? 😉
Cleared on a technicality is not the same as innocent. Now the LIAR mark must follow Alistair everywhere online & in person, & law must change to allow recall of politicians who bring their office into disrepute
I never really expected any other outcome…The status Quo always rally round their own…..The fact that the judges freely admit he was “Economical with the truth” should make voters in the islands sit up and re-evaluate their opinions of this lowlife.
They can only take for granted the electorate up to a point, and that point has been reached..SNP/SNP next time round.
Alistair Carmichael MP is a proven liar. Yet, the court has decided that openly lying about his own conduct, isn’t actually an action that can be considered personal.
However, I have more confidence in the wisdom of the constituents of Orkney & Shetland who will have the opportunity in 5 years time to remind Alistair Carmichael that lying to his constituents is dishonourable & unacceptable.
Meanwhile, observers might question if Alistair Carmichael’s brazen lying while serving as a British Member of Parliament satisfies the criteria of “British values”.
Not surprised. Carmichael doesn’t come out of it well though.
It is now on record that he is a proven liar.
Irene says:
9 December, 2015 at 10:59 am
#Carmichael did lie in a bid to affect his return in election, judges rule; but because it wasn’t about “personal conduct”, petition falls.
How on earth can it not be about personal conduct, if he duped the voters that he was an honest person before the election?
The whole thing stinks.
I feel worse about this than I did about losing the referendum. Well, now at least the world will know what a heap of shit Britannia is, and at last their disregard for truth and justice is shown to the world. SNP times 2. I contributed last week to the Orkney 4 and will again later today. What a shitty mess this UK is!
Politically, probably the best result for the SNP, IMO. The LDs are left with a lame duck MP, Westminster made to look bad and they don’t need to fight what would have been a difficult by-election.
However, there is the matter of the petitioners costs, so I’m off to indiegogo now to help them out.
If you tolerate this, your children will be next.
We are the children. Scotland has been lied to for decades, and the Scottish Courts say that’s business as usual.
What a grubby little country we live in.
He got off on a technicality by the looks of it. The rest of the statement is pretty damning for him.
The fact is that it has been proven that he lied to boost his own chances of election. Yes, that he won on a technicality is frustrating, but if he had any ounce of honour left, he’d know he had to go now.
Arrrggggh!
100 quid sent to the fund raiser. They should not be a penny out of pocket due to this miscarriage of justice.
I hope the LibDems pay a heavy price in 2016.
“Having heard all the evidence, I find the accused, Dr Shipman, is innocent.”
It stings like a bastard now.
But wait and see their coupons come May month.
This is the best result we could have hoped for.
So a self-confessed liar gets away with it. Why are we not surprised? I take solace in the thought that the whole rancid business and verdict has moved us immeasurably closer to independence. Carmichaeliar is finished; the LiebDims are finished and the Union is finished.
Just donated to the Orkney Four’s fund. Please chip in, folks.
Carmichael’s irony-bypass is such that he has issued a victim statement protesting that “this case was politically motivated”.
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153708695423670
How to UKOK spin STV style.
Carmichael is a liar and a cheat and a Libdem MP.
“because he would be falsely holding himself out as being of such a standard of honesty, honour, trustworthiness and integrity”
That’s exactly what someone who’s addressed as the Right Honourable is doing.
MPs are quite well protected. Thats the system.
No wonder he is afraid to go back to his constituents.
I only hope that voters take it all into consideration in future elections when looking at any Lib Dem candidate.
Well his statement has just made me even angrier if that is possible. Smearing away with his lies.
The lib dems have really been shown for what they are liars, child abusers & war mongering scum.
I don’t quite understand though. I thought the argument that the Orkney Four’s counsel was advancing was that in lying to Channel 4 that he had not sanctioned the leak and knew nothing about it he was in effect telling a lie about himself during an election campaign in order to influence the return of a candidate (himself). So surely Lady Paton’s findings that he lied for self-protection proves exactky that? And therefore fulfills the criteria for the election law?
I suspect a Unionist plot for him to win, then stand down and claim hounded out of Scotland by those nasty nationalists, plastered all over the press in a desperate attempt to turn the tide here in Scotland. Family targeted, mobs in streets, vilecybernats, etc etc, scripts probably already written.
So don’t be surprised to see him in front of a massive press pack in the very near future.
He needs to STAY as their MP.
Carmichael the true face of perfidious pro Brit anti Scottish unionism in Scotland along with Mundell and Murray-no friends of Scotland these three. Parcel of Rogues whose time is nearly up along with the farce they call the “union”. Remember to vote…..
1 SNP
2 SNP
Once again the Britstate Establishment are highly visible.
Their visibility is our weapon against them.
They work best in the darkness.
It was to be expected: the lie was not directly about an individual electoral opponent in his constituency, which is what the law requires. It couldn’t be shown to have been likely to decrease support for an individual electoral opponent, but it is significant that the judgement found that it was a lie which was intended to protect and boost his own vote. It’s just a particularly, extremely unscrupulous example of what some politicians have always resorted to.
So I don’t think we should be too disappointed. The important thing is that the challenge was made, that he wasn’t allowed to get away with it, that the lie was exposed, examined, and publicised, and that the wretched pompous, blundering, untrustworthy buffoon is finished as a politician. And what are his prospects of a return to legal practice?
We should be crowdfunding to take this further.
“The Nationalists failed to remove me as last LD voice in parliament.”
A man happy to continue lying.
@Sassenach
‘Does the Church have any credibility left?’
Did they ever have any credibility?
I sincerely hope that the SNP use this in the elections next year.
Lying for self protection has been the basis of every criminal trial I can remember. Even serial killers lie to protect self.
How can this be a defence?
It is utterly illogical for the court to summise that he indeed did tell a lie,but not to acknowledge the potential that lie had to affect not only Ms Sturgeon,but thd whole of the SNP movement,and every candidate who stood for them.
It was deliberate.intended falsehood.
Wait till we see how the BUM treat this result, hopefully they will continue digging their own graves by attempting to defend this ludicrous outcome.
Sure as hell this will push more people to the Yes side, as the UK and it’s establishment stranglehold becomes even more visible (did somebody mention N. Korea??).
Fuck this Westminster “democracy.”
Q Who wrote the laws regarding electoral probity?
A The bastards who duck and weave around its deliberate vagueness to serve their masters and their personal bank balance.
I am done with lot.
The gloves have to come off?
Eh Nicola?
Carbuncle will be elevated and introduced into the house of liars and gangsters. After all he is a splendid example of the establishment. Wonder if carbuncle has maybe some high flying co conspiriters who will show their appreciation with a fur coat and bags of loot. That’s what you get if you are a lying dishonest politian. The rest of us would get ten years and a criminal record.
Westminster is a sewer jammed with the rejects of normal society. The disreputable law has had the searchlight of truth and honesty shone on it and found to be a mirage.
WESTMINSTER HAS BEEN SHOWN FOR WHAT IT IS. A FARCE.
Thank the people of Scotland for exposing this joke, and especially the Orkney four. Thank you for allowing us to help you.
OK, the O4 shouldn’t pay the legal fees.
The argument being: You assumed we would pay the LEGAL fees because you believed we were honourable people, but we didn’t actually say to anyone out loud “WE WILL PAY THE LEGAL FEES. So we don’t have to pay, and we have two Law Court judges who agree with us”
Merry Christmas Alistair
Lots of love from the British establishment xx
(I was so angry I wrote “Michael” accidentally in my original post above!)
Just donated again to Orkney fund for 4th time this week and will do so again every week.
At least the public know the real truth.
Did he anywhere in his election refer to his being an elder of the Church? If so his Channel 4 lie was personal conduct as to have been truthful would have been at variance with the personal probity implied by his standing and position as an elder.
The answer is easy, just vote
1.SNP
2. SNP
next May
For the people of Orkney and Shetland in particular to kick out the Lib Dem MSP’s standing
What we want is ZERO Libdems returned in May
If you tolerate this, your children will be next.
We are the children. Scotland has been lied to for decades, and the Scottish Courts say that’s business as usual.
What a grubby little country we live in.
Sorry if this double posts… Doesn’t seem to want to post.
In a lot of ways this verdict is the best possible result for a free Scotland. For four more years the discredited liar has to represent westminster in the face of overwhelming public disgust and support for independence will grow after this verdict.
Not surprised and not happy about it.
However if I read it correctly on the “second issue” it seems to me that Lady Paton and Lord Matthews are saying “under section 106 we can’t find against him, but I would never vote for the fat fu£krater”
Just remember that Willie Rennie backed Carmichael to the hilt. That speaks volumes about the entire LibDem party. I just wonder how secure Tavish and Liam feel right now.
The focus in Orkney and Shetland in the run up to the Holyrood election must, surely, be on the ability of the electorate to trust such a sham of a party.
SNP/SNP must be the message up there. It has to be supported with a rational argument as to why that is the only way to vote. Simply relying on “Carmichael lies through his teeth” might not be a sound enough message.
It might be the only way to shame him into stepping down if he is made aware (because he won’t “see” it) that his conduct has damaged his beloved party.
The loss of LibDem representation for Orkney & Shetland is the next step. A “two for one” sort of thing.
Carmichael LLB… Lousy Lying B*****d.
The law is universal, justice is unique and should not be constrained within the boundaries of the law. This is not a just ruling but there will be an opportunity next year for electoral justice and beyond that keep voting for our party of independence until the democratic message is finally understood.
@ Sassenach
The Church of “Scotland” is a unionist establishment stalking horse, always has been always will be! Long may they continue to dwindle.
Am i surprised no, was this expected yes!
However the message this sends is that it is clear it is ok to lie to the electorate as after all who do politicians serve and swear allegiance to when they enter the house of commons…They swear allegiance to the Queen.
Yet another example of democracy being contorted to suit needs of the few and how politics is well and truly defunct!
Just donated to the campaigners for the third time – the only way I can express my outrage at the moment.
SNP/SNP 2016
He lied at work, in his job, at work, there is fuck all personal about this, he was at work.
He also represented the UK Government so by extension it was the UK Government who also smeared NS.
If I lied and smeared folk at my work I’d be fired right oot the door and he should be no different.
Disgusting disgraceful decision.
Aliarstair Carmichael.
A proven liar.
Predictable, UK justice for Scotland. We deserve better!
Interesting to see all the joyous tweets of support flooding in from BTUKOK high-heid yins…
@squarego, 11am
“So, he is officially a “blatant” liar, but because he didn’t actually claim that he wasn’t a blatant liar, that’s ok?”
Good summary.
Carmichael statement ”it was politically motivated”
http://www.scotlibdems.org.uk/alistair_carmichael_statement_following_election_court_decision
Should political interview programmes now have a warning at the beginning,
“This programme may contain Political lies”
Same as the warning for flashing images.
O/T If Libdems haven’t paid £800,000 to Police Scotland, what chances their paying anything to this farce.
Islanders are stuck with a proven liar as their MP. The Church of Scotland may forgive one of their own but I doubt the voters will. Carmichael is a lame duck politician. Would you trust this man with your concerns?
Surprised by how angry this has made me. Can’t get indigogo to work on this browser at work (too old). Will send some money tonight.
Chris
What about a petition calling on him to resign and resubmit himself to the electorate?
Every time I see Carbuncle now, I am going to imagine him thinking about this court case, Scotland and us Yessers.
And it will manifest itself in my mind as Marlon Brando’s character in Apocalypse Now.
‘ the horror………..the horror’
Now that the judges have finished scrutinising one small legal fragment of this leaked memo business through the wrong end of a carefully aligned legal telescope, we can get back to considering the other interesting questions it raises. Such as when and by whom were the rather oddly uncharacteristic final sentences added to the memo, those which claimed that Sturgeon would like Cameron to win, and then rather carefully doubted itself to provide a plausible defence in case of being found out. Such as why did the Telegraph print the leak without even bothering to lift a telephone to check its accuracy with any of the three public figures who were at the meeting, and whom subsequent journalists found were easily contactable and willing to testify? Surely not because they already knew what answers they would have got? As several prominent unionists pointed out at the time, it hardly mattered whether in actual fact Sturgeon did say it, because “everybody knew” it was what she thought anyway. So when a huge trawl of Sturgeon’s published sayings failed to find evidence of what “everyone knew she thought” the next step was to fabricate a “plausible” unpublished but documented one at the last minute so the allegation could do its dirty work before the truth managed to get its boots on.
Tamson says:
9 December, 2015 at 11:10 am
Politically, probably the best result for the SNP, IMO. The LDs are left with a lame duck MP, Westminster made to look bad and they don’t need to fight what would have been a difficult by-election.
Yes, it would have been a very difficult by-election where the SNP would have been underdogs. Not great politically in the run up to the Holyrood elections.
That’s exactly why all the accusations of the case being politically driven was nonsense. This was all people expecting better standards from the MP’s
Carmichael survives due to a technicality, but with a nasty stain on his character, and his party now have a huge black cloud over them.
Thank you Joan for posting that detail.
In case anyone seeks to study the source, at 12 noon 9 December 2015, it should appear on the official website…
http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-judgments/judgment?id=9452fba6-8980-69d2-b500-ff0000d74aa7
Tim Farron, the Liar and the Liar’s cohort Tavish Scott say what a great job he has has done for his constituents and how he has their support.
Ok, resign your seat and stand again……let’s see if you have their support.
It’s a pity the judges hadn’t added “and if you attempt to misrepresent what we’ve ruled, you will be held in contempt of court”.
Aliarstair Carmichael.
Proven liar.
This decision is firmly in the interests of the establishment.
Found guilty of lying to further his chances of being elected, liar Carmichael has now probably doomed his party to short term oblivion.
Who wins?
In a Scotland that the yooniun is loosing anyway, it makes not a whit of difference. This ruling will have little effect on the outcome of the May elections as far as the Tories are concerned and it might even strengthen their position if Libdem voters jump ship to the Tory cause (all UKOK anyway).
In England, however, the ruling could mean an end of a party that can form an alliance with or against the Tories. Something that removes the necessity to dampen down Tory policies.
With Labour in disarray and now the Fibdems unelectable, the Tories have what they want. Free reign to govern the UKOK how they want and unopposed.
When the Tories loose Scotland, they have just insured that they can rule rUK unopposed for the forseeable future.
Our good old legal system… Judges selected by political parties to protect those party’s interests in court.
https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/674550495734800384
The Orkney4 should refuse to pay Carmichael’s costs, a blatant liar who has already cost the taxpayers for an enquiry.
Just visited the Campaign site and made another payment :>) Probably the best and easiest way of giving the effing Tories and UKOK a kick.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-people-versus-carmichael/
Dont MPs take an oath to act witbout making false statements of fact.
Alastair can smile but hes just tapped in another nail in the Union coffin.
Lets await Wullie Rennie saying lets move on and then see if he is smiling come 2016.
Alistair Carmichael is a sorry excuse for a human being, a parasite kept alive by a corrupt British State happy to feed him.
If only things had been different September 2014. Unfortunately the only power or right of reply we now have against him and the system is to vote SNP x2 come next May.
Re JamesCaithness
In the LibDem statement on the outcome;
Willie Rennie states that it is over.
Willie….No it’s not!
Kevin Schofield
?@PolhomeEditor
Alistair Carmichael is going to pursue his accusers to cover his legal costs, I’m told. “It’ll be ballpark £150,000,” says a Lib Dem source
Not just a liar but a BLATANT LIAR – official
So now that the case has been concluded, and has been confirmed as a liar, we can expect the Liberal Democrats to discipline him?
Aye right!
May the bastard rot in hell. Just feel sorry for all those poor people whose food banks will go without. I hope he’s proud of himself.
Also let’s push to get the ‘Recall of MP’s’ into Law ASAP, After all it was the Lib/Dems that pushed for its introduction in the first instance.
Auld Rock
So much for Lady Paton and Lord Matthews, the Scottish Legal System and the United Kingdom Parliament.
I’m certain, in the minds of the majority of the Sovereign People of Scotland, they stand as found guilty as charged and will, in due course, be rewarded for their guilt by the London Establishment and reviled by most of the people of Scotland.
May God forgive them for they know not what they have done, (to themselves).
We must not allow the Orkney Four to suffer in any way and to that end I’m about to donate a decent sum to the fund. No matter how the costs are awarded the funds will be used for the benefit of Scotland and her people.
I was stuck for access to my own bank funds for some weeks due to a mucked up on-line banking account leaving me stuck with only my state pension to live on. I had left this to be drawn from the Post Office for just such things happening.
So I didn’t starve but that was about all I could manage to avoid. I did not enjoy joining the ranks of State Pensioner’s in Scotland’s with only the state pension to live on.
Another Unionist cover up which breaks Scottish Law. A dangerous precedent for the future, because people voted NO. An affront to democracy and Scottish Law. A lying politician can lie and abuse others. Vote every Unionists politician out in Scotland and their sycophants Greens who support the status quo.
The Scottish judiciary are wasting £Millions/Billions of Scottish taxpayers money not supporting Scottish sovereignty under the Law. Breaking Human rights Laws, that Scotland should be treated equal under the Union. That has not happen. Westminster Ministers have repeatedly broken the ministerial code and the Terms of the Act of Union. They have used the Official Secrets Act to cover their criminality. Westminster have lied and taken Scotland into illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion.
Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence.
Meanwhile, back at the Ranch – sorry Trough – only this week Brown and Darling gleefully and unashmedly joined Blair by leaping on the Capitalist bandwagon.
And there was naive old me LABOURING under the impression that they were socialists.
What’s the word I’m looking for? Ah Yes – HYPOCRISY.
What a cesspit of scoundrels at WM.
Rev – is there enough money in the kitty to pay someone to follow him around all day every day holding up a big sign saying “PROVEN LIAR”?
Also, I dare every single SNP MP to call him a liar in Parliament. And in every interview they ever give where the Lib Dems are mentioned. Preface it, if need be, to “political liar.” But to hell with ever using the words “Honourable Member” about him again, or indeed to ever saying his name without the words “The Liar” before them.
“Well, the Liar representing Orkney and Shetland might say that, but we have no way of being sure he’s not lying about that too…”
The fund is going up continuously now.
As is the number of contributors, Now over 8.5K.
That is also important.
1 Gutted, like September 2014.
2 Onwards, like May 2015.
Ruth Davidson who broke the law by publishing electoral results before the end of polling,
Not Guilty
John McTernan who broke the law by publishing electoral results before the end of polling,
Not Guilty
Andy Coulson proven to have committed perjury in the trial against Tommy Sheridan,
Not Guilty
Alistair Carmichael “proven beyond reasonable doubt that the first respondent made the false statement of fact “for the purpose of affecting (positively) his own return at the election”.
Not Guilty
Tommy Sheridan dragged to court but proven not guilty by a jury of his peers,
dragged back to court charged with perjury by a Lord Judge and given three years,
The Scottish Law Lords are not interested in Justice they are their to protect the Establishment.
Nicola needs to have a sweeping review of the Scottish legal system,they have been proven beyond doubt that they are are not fit for purpose.
Looks like rancid old Graun hits that UKOK nail on the head.
Law that’s subjective? Judge’s decide what a political lie actually, who was being lied to and why.
Carmichael wasn’t lying to his voters in Orkney, How they reach that reach conclusion, is just one more teamGB mystery, probably of the year.
“In a summary of the decision, which is being released in full later on Wednesday, Paton referred to the precise words used by Carmichael in the Channel 4 News interview two days after the Telegraph published the memo.
She said: “There is no dispute that the words ‘I told you the first I became aware of this, and this is already on public record, was when I received a phone call on Friday afternoon [i.e. Friday 3 April 2015] from a journalist making me aware of it’ constituted a false statement of fact, in other words, a lie.
“Obviously [Carmichael] had been aware of the existence of the memo and its contents as described to him by Mr Roddin since the flight to the Faroe Islands in March 2015. Moreover, he had authorised Mr Roddin to release the memo to the Daily Telegraph.”
But Mitchell had not proved that that deception was designed to deceive voters in Carmichael’s seat. The judges had reasonable doubt that this lie was about Carmichael’s personal character and conduct.
“It is of the essence of section 106 that it does not apply to lies in general: it applies only to lies in relation to the personal character or conduct of a candidate made before or during an election for the purpose of affecting that candidate’s return,” Paton said.
But Mitchell had not proved that that deception was designed to deceive voters in Carmichael’s seat.
This court was never going to find against Carmichael. There are too many “other participants” he is sheilding. Cameron,his boss at the time in the coalition cabinet, Mundell, his deputy, and Clegg, his party superior. No UK court is going to open that can of worms.
A day of embarrassment for Lib Dem voters and politicians, the media and the UK judiciary.
Still he lies “this was brought against me by nationalists”
Obviously he has a great difficulty telling the truth You would at least hope that he had learned something over the last few months
I hope they appeal, if necessary to European Court of Human Rights.
Seek a second opinion!
I heard him say on R Scotland that he had been pursued by “the Nationalists”. Another lie.
Off to donate again. It might be helpful if Stu made a separate post to help the fundraiser?
The Orkney Four can contest any awards of costs to Liar Carmichael. That should compromise him. The Costs
Why do they keep banging on about “its politically motivated”? Its about an election! Of course its politically motivated.
Disgusted, we got to get out of this union. Another £50 in the kitty from me as a Christmas present to the truth.
He won’t be off to any small-scale financial institution when he’s tossed out.
He’s a proven liar.
The big boys at HSBC, Goldman and Barclays will be bidding for him.
He’ll probably get a seat on the Board of News Corp.
Bill Clinton has released a statement.
“Aliarstair Carmichael did not have sexual relations with that woman, Lady Paton”.
@Breeks says:
9 December, 2015 at 11:29 am
If you tolerate this, your children will be next.
The Country is not Grubby and little.
Our politicians and the Westminster is though.
Will the Orkney Four just put up a sort code/a/c Name. They will get twice as much from people without Internet access, secure and with no fees. Or will a benefactor come forward?
If the law won’t clean up our politics then we, The People, will do it in May 2016 (SNP x2).
This is not the kind of country anyone (and I include Unionists in this) should want or remotely endorse; a country where you can lie through your teeth to undermine democracy and find that the law is on your side.
Hey NO voter – is this the kind of country you want? Your MP can lie to you and the law will support them? Is that REALLY the kind of country you want to live in? REALLY?
It simply is not good enough a country for me.
Orkney Four – right behind you. You brave people will get the funds needed so don’t worry yourselves. This action must be a reality check for the Establishment who now can see that we have the means and the will to take them on – something we were never able to do before.
Come on people, I know Christmas is coming but we need to chuck money into the fund:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-people-versus-carmichael#/
Any excess fund will go to foodbanks so no need to hold back. Dig deep.
IndyRef#2 coming sooner to a ballot box near you.
SNP x 2 SE2016.
… its hard to understand how this judgement could have come about. Clearly the man lied and was complicit in deceit.
Understandably, there is much frustration and anger above, and much of it aimed at the Judicial system. On that point, and because I genuinely do not know, was the process and verdict conducted under laws that are set at Holyrood or Westminster?
From the official judgement it appears the case fell because the standard of proof was to a criminal beyond reasonable doubt as opposed to the civil balance of probability. In VERY raw terms, one requires approximately 90%+ proof, the other 51% proof.
Given this fact, if Carmichael conducts himself in anything other than a fair and impeccable manner he WILL find himself in court again. This time on CIVIL action. The reason? It is clear that the judges already found Carmichael to be a liar and FAIL in credibility.
Carmichael only got off because of the standard of proof element for this particular court action.
I REPEAT, IF CARMICHAEL CHANCES HIS LUCK FROM NOW ON – HE WILL BE BACK IN COURT – AND WE HAVE LEARNT’T A LOT FROM THIS CASE SO AS NOT TO LOOSE THE NEXT.
For the record, here is the official verdict of the judges on Carmichael’s failure in regards to credibility…
Credibility and reliability
[8] We had no concerns about the credibility and reliability of the witnesses, with one exception: that related to the first respondent’s evidence (Carmichael) that, in the context of questions about the source of the leak, he was not concerned about his reputation or his standing in the constituency. In our opinion the evidence generally, and in particular the evidence about the furious reaction to the leak, the immediate investigation into its source, and the first respondent’s (Carmichael) disingenuous approach when responding to the Cabinet Office inquiry, taken with the first respondent’s (Carmichael) own evidence in court, proved beyond reasonable doubt that the first respondent (Carmichael) hoped not to be identified as being involved with the leak, all as further discussed in paragraphs [65] and [68] to [70] below. We accordingly did not accept the first respondent’s (Carmichael) evidence on that matter.
Official Source: https://archive.is/5T5vF#selection-1745.0-1751.870
We wish to live in a democracy where there is next to no secrecy, and most certainly none that protects an elected representative sufficiently that that MP can lie to the administration, the press, and the public no matter what it is that he or she hopes to enhance or degrade.
The judgement said “Evasive and self-serving.”
Carmichael’s presence next to you is toxic.
Looking at the judgement ,Carmichael was found guilty on 2 of the 3 charges,and only escaped the third because of a technicality ,that concluded the QC for the Orkney 4 did not prove that he had affected the result in his own (Carmichaels) constituency.
Had he done so, the verdict would have gone the other way.
Carmichael is more guilty than innocent, but we sensible people knew that much already.
“But Mitchell had not proved that that deception was designed to deceive voters in Carmichael’s seat. The judges had reasonable doubt that this lie was about Carmichael’s personal character and conduct”
So in effect, the shyster would have been found guilty if he had said in the C4 news, he was lying to voters in his seat?
Unlikely.
You can lie through your UKOK teeth on telly, just don’t mention anyone in particular that you’re actually lying specifically to them.
You live and UKOK learn
Not surprised.
Contributed to the fund (again) – hope others do too…
Rev – would it be possible to have a very visible link for a few days?
Hustings for Scottish Parliament Election 2016, Shetland and Orkney Constituencies
Question 1 Mr Tavish Scott, given that your Lib Dem Colleague Mr Carmichael admitted lying in a political capacity and judges summation in the case noted that he did this to enhance his own electoral propects, are you speaking here tonight in a personal, or a political capacity?
Same to Liam McArthur
Dippy Dave: was the process and verdict conducted under laws that are set at Holyrood or Westminster
Please fuck off.
Your point as an aggressive troll was made ages ago.
Do not be too downhearted. We have in writing what we knew all along, he is proven liar. It’s a matter of public record. He can be held up as an example of what an independent Scotland does not want. And in other news Alistair Darling joins the board of Morgan Stanley. Two Alistairs in one day is more than a body can take. Clear them out in May. Vote SNP one two!
On the second issue, the judges were satisfied that it had been proved beyond reasonable doubt that the first respondent (Carmichael) made the false statement of fact “for the purpose of affecting (positively) his own return at the election”.
Lady Paton said: “As the first respondent said in evidence, he wanted public attention to remain focused on that important political message, rather than becoming side-tracked by revelations that it had been he and his special adviser Mr Roddin who had leaked the memo to the Daily Telegraph. In his view, if public attention remained focused on that political message, voters who had anxieties about Scottish independence might find voting for the SNP a less attractive prospect…The inescapable inference, in our opinion, is that if the SNP became a less attractive prospect, the first respondent’s chances of a comfortable majority in what had become a ‘two-horse race’ in Orkney and Shetland would be enhanced.”
Carmichael claiming the last few months were stressful for him.
If he has any conscience he should be wracked with guilt at the damage he has caused to the chances of his colleagues retaining seats in May.
It is his wife and children I feel sorry for.
Carmichael is tainted. He has been branded by the courts as a liar. No MP will want associated with him.
Well I’ve just been through the full summary and I’m b*ggered if I get it.
“He told a lie but we’re not fully convinced he’s a liar.” Does that about sum it up?
Angry and disgusted – yes. The least bit surprised – no.
The lie was designed to deceive all voters in Scotland INCLUDING in Carmichael’s seat.
Therefore, the lie was certainly designed to deceive voters in Orkney and Shetland.
This is basic logic.
Carmichael is a liar, that is now a legally recognised fact. So it will be permissible for him to be dishonest, be untruthful, bear false witness, belie, commit perjury, concoct, counterfeit, delude, deviate from the truth, dissimulate, fable, fabricate, falsify, fib, fool, forswear, invent, misguide, misinform, mislead, misrepresent, misstate, palter, perjure oneself, pervert, pretend, prevaricate, represent falsely, swear falsely, tell a falsehood, tell an untruth,? these are legal definitions of Liar.
And this is not in relation to his character as a Man????, Just because he is an MP, so it doesn’t matter, is that semantic argument one which can stand unchallenged?
So there we have the basis for our democracy, for our laws and essentially the society we live in is predicated on the grounds that all laws passed by parliament were made by those that are now, may have been and could be in future the new term legal liars.
“However, on the matter of whether the lie could properly be characterised as a false statement of fact “in relation to [his] personal character or conduct”, the judges were left with a reasonable doubt.”
St. Augustine said “lying is both illegal and immoral; it undermines relationships and the will of God”. The foundation of all law is a moral code, before we had written Law all law was religious, the fundamental law or common law is based on that. To take liar out of personal context is not possible, it goes to the heart of what character means.
The ruling mixes up a political belief with a simple question, if I say I believe that a redistribution of wealth by raising taxes is good for the economy that is a political belief, the opposite point of view can also be held, this cannot mean that either side is lying. However if a policeman says did you steal that car, and I did, and I say I did not, I am a liar, if I am asked did I send a note and I did and I say I didn’t, I am a liar, both are justifiable statements that impinge my character political expediency is irrelevant , my occupation is irrelevant.
“In his view, if public attention remained focused on that political message, voters who had anxieties about Scottish independence might find voting for the SNP a less attractive prospect…”
The election was not about a referendum on independence, but Mr Carmichael and his integrity as a man representing the electorate. To bring up the referendum is a shocking lack of awareness. And a fudge!
Good people of Orkney and Shetland your MP now stands before you, a convicted Liar. But it’s ok because he is political, you ok with that because I am absolutely not!
https://www.scottishgreens.org.uk/news/carmichael-case-finnie-urges-mp-to-face-electorate-with-facts/
“I believe Mr Carmichael should seriously consider his position following this hairsplit decision by the court. Perhaps he wants to consider resigning and go into a by-election to allow him to face his constituents with the full facts and the opportunity to regain their support.”
SPOT ON !
At one time the likes of Carmichael would be locked in a hotel room with a revolver and expected to do the decent thing. O Tempora O Mores.
Time now to get shot of that odious lairdling Tavish Scott.
Strangely, I find myself not giving a shit how the judges seek to defend their judgement. Finding him guilty would have required no explanation whatsoever.
Grouse Beater 12:19 pm
“Please fuck off. Your point as an aggressive troll was made ages ago.”
Hmmm, so, to agree with most commenters above is to be an “aggressive troll”???
As you know Grousey, I am not one to resort to profanity, but could I invite you, in the nicest possible way – to shove it? You pompous ass.
Confirming what until now we could only suspect – politicians are legally entitled to be shitebag liars!
Understandably, there is much frustration and anger above, and much of it aimed at the Judicial system.
You probably shouldn’t be gloating sensibledave. Is this a good day for the blessed UKOK union?
Anger and frustration is putting it mildly too but no doubt this will be very quickly buried by the BBC in Scotland creep show, like how they buried EVEL, or the Scotland bill shyste.
Its how you red/blue tory rule Britannia.
The Law Society of Scotland
Rule B1.2: Trust and personal integrity
1.2 You must be trustworthy and act honestly at all times so that your personal integrity is beyond question. In particular, you must not behave, whether in a professional capacity or otherwise, in a way which is fraudulent or deceitful.
Carmichael is a solicitor, is he not? Will we see any action from The Law Society?
They will not win in the long run, as long as there is breath in my body i will fight them.
Another twenty quid gladly contributed,
Well done to the Orkney 4 for giving it a go for all of us.
Please give what you can folks, however small, it all adds up.
Dippy Dave: As you know Grousey
Thanks for confirming your aggressive nature.
Your presence here is the equivalent of a man appearing at a funeral to ask for money owed to him by the diseased.
Take a hike.
I have supported the campaign financially from the beginning. I am completely disgusted at this bizarre verdict. Incidentally I am English and supported it because barefaced lying for political gain is wrong. For me it doesn’t matter if it is the orkneys or Tunbridge Wells.
Who has the ears of the courts? The normal folk who brought this LIAR to court to call him out for what he was, or the Establishment?
It was as obvious an outcome as Carmichael is odious.
Can’t wait to see the final outcome in 2020 GE though!
Carmichael is a solicitor, is he not? Will we see any action from The Law Society?
Carmichael is a man most honest people won’t want to be seen associating.
Put another £20 in the kitty last night.
Dig deep folks…
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-people-versus-carmichael#/
Cheer up, we have the best of both worlds.
A lame duck representative of a party that is despised. A sore wound that will be there until the next general election to remind everybody what he did, ,his party and the political unionism creed he represents.
The real problem that this matter presented to the Establishment is that a by-election could have upset the notion that O&S are materially different from the Scottish mainland. By keeping AC in post, a by-election is averted, and the Establishment can continue to make out that O&S can remain in the UK, even if the mainland heads for indy.
They might still try to partition Scotland. They did it in Ireland and are doing it in Syria.
Just saying.
Folks :
One day Scotland will evolve and be a free Independent Nation State in its own right, further we will have achieved that without guns, bombs, lies and intimidation.
Alistair Carmichael will always be Alistair Carmichael – his family and friends will also have to live with the outfall of his premeditated lies & deception. (All relief and pride in the result is now only a hollow show for the cameras)
Regardless of the UK states judgement this man is now a ‘general public’ pariah for all but the most rabid unionists.
Alistair Carmichael is a proven liar and charlatan; further he will from here on be held up as an example of the sleazier side of public office and lying in general.
What this confirms is that there is no rule of law.
Maybe it’s time we made or own laws, held out own courts, exacted out own penalties.
As “Mark” pointed out on the previous thread, there have been two recent convictions under sec. 106 of the “Representation of the People Act 1983”.
Miranda Grell
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_Grell
and Phil Woolas:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Woolas#Re-election_2010_and_election_court_case
Having read over the detail, I fail to see what difference there is between those cases and the Carmichael case.
Also why are we told that this act hasn’t been used for 50 years when these two cases are 2007 and 2010?
I don’t suppose that there is any chance of a private prosecution on behalf of the British taxpayers for the humongous cost of the investigation which was set in motion and would have been obviated by not lying?
The Dumb Brothers Heedy and Grousey
Heedy, you wrote: “You probably shouldn’t be gloating sensibledave. Is this a good day for the blessed UKOK union?
I know you don’t actually read Heedy, so I shouldn’t be surprised, but I keep thinking that you can’t be as stupid as you appear to be.
I was doing the opposite of gloating Heedy, I was agreeing with most of the sentiments expressed above.
Grousey, you wrote: “Thanks for confirming your aggressive nature”.
… I write agreeing with comments above, you write “F**k off” and I am the one with the aggressive nature? No Grousey, it just so happens that I am not Scottish – which appears to be my crime. Grow up.
@Capella 9 December, 2015 at 12:45 pm
“Also why are we told that this act hasn’t been used for 50 years when these two cases are 2007 and 2010?”
England as opposed to Scotland?
Procrustes sought to fit his’visitors’ onto a bed by either chopping off their head and feet or by stretching them on a rack. Procrustes effort to conform with the parameters and constraints of the bed resulted in the visitor either dying or being fatally injured.
Mr Carmichael also appears to have been subjected to this Procrustean Solution by the parameters and constraints of the law as it seems to currently stand.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-35049150
What made the Carmichael case fascinating was the extent to which it lifted back the curtain and let the public peer into the murky detail of life on the political front line.
The crucial thing in the case hasn’t been whether or not Mr Carmichael lied – he admitted as much.
The important thing was whether this lie was just politics, or a matter “in relation to personal character or conduct”.
As in every case, the judges are largely constrained by the exact wording and letter of the law – and Lady Paton and Lord Matthews decided they couldn’t prove beyond reasonable doubt that Mr Carmichael’s lie fitted the very specific box drawn by the law.”
BBC explains the “crucial thing” but why did the liar wait, watch a million quid investigation and then confess to being a fraudster, after he was elected, is the “crucial thing”
He wins May 7 2015, confesses 22 May 2015. But BBC propagandist say law could not prove personal character or political misconduct
https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/588068/nikileaks-alistair-carmichael-sends-letter-nicola-sturgeon-apologising/
Another dark day for good old british democracy. My 20 year old son reckoned he would get off with ‘a small fine’, sweet of him to think the british justice system would be that fair. He was never going to be found guilty and lose his seat, but everyone knows he is a proven liar. How embarassing for british politics.
Re; R. Peffers@11.56.
O/T
Robert glad to hear you managed to survive that glitch to your bank account, not sure if it applies to pensions but ukok gov are removing post office card accounts for people on benefits, they have to have a bank account, it’s imminent. Really scary for anyone with learning disabilities and no support or those who cannot access a bank account at all, they will literally starve. But then, that’s what westmonster unionists want.
That verdict was rightly pretty damning of Aliarstair’s character.
The law may have let the people of Orkney and Shetland down on a technical wording, and certainly it looks as if to get rid of “lying sacks of shit” that will need amending to remove that flaw, but what of the LibDem organisation themselves. It’s disgraceful that none among that party leadership have mentioned sanctions against him.
Do they champion blatant liars as their representatives?
Not surprised, but Carbunckle is finished!
Vote SNP x 2 May 2016 show these worm tongues that we are no longer listening.
Well done Orkney Four you are true Scottish Heroes, unlike the lying puddock who is looking around for stone to crawl underneath.
Regarding the outcome, I strongly suspect that those making the judgement bottled it.
It is a brave man or woman who makes such a judgement against the wishes of the London Establishment and in this case, those making the judgement simply did not want to rock the Establishment boat.
Carmichael is a liar. Beyond doubt. But for the Judiciary to effectively set down a judgement that demonstrates that power can lay outside of Westminster…well, that was never going to happen.
We, the ordinary people, can look on exasperated, with understandable confusion at legal speak designed to obfuscate and bamboozle the average punter. It doesn’t make sense to most of us; it’s not meant to.
Carmichael got off the hook because he is a Member of the House of Commons.
He’s one of “Them”.
On of “Us” as seen from the perspective of London and the inner sanctum of UK power.
Along with the obvious decision that Carmichael stays in post, Jocks!….there is another message delivered today.
And that message is that no matter what an MP does to wrong Scotland, to wrong the Scottish electorate, to behave in a corrupt manner; it is Westminster that calls the shots, pulls the strings and has the final say.
Those strings were pulled very tightly by the London Establishment and Lady Paton and Lord Matthews danced to the tune of the Puppet Master.
He wants us he needs us but isn’t now way he’s ever going to love us,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5hWWe-ts2s&index=1&list=RDk5hWWe-ts2s
I bet Clinton wishes he was Scottish, a political blow job,
sums up Carmichael well,
So what else can we put political in front off to make it ok, murder, oh that’s been done Tony Blair.
@sensibledave says: 9 December, 2015 at 12:15 pm:
“… I genuinely do not know, was the process and verdict conducted under , are you?
laws that are set at Holyrood or Westminster?”
If you had read the thread there are several references to the facts of that matter, but then you are not really interested in the facts, are you?
The law in this matter is electoral law and that is a reserved matter. The court is not Scottish but the judiciary on the bench are.
So if Carmichael had said that he “would not” leak a memo but had, the judges would be likely to conclude that the candidate had given a false statement “’in relation to [his] personal character or conduct”
But because he said that he “did not” leak the memo, but did, he is found not guilty.
Glad that’s cleared up.
The Orkney 4 say they won 2 out of 3 points
Gutted.
Threw in some more to the fund, and shared to Indy pages.
🙁
Re; Julian@12.37
It would be great to think that the people in Tunbridge Wells would have been as motivated to bring this kind of case to court, it has been a diffcult road for the Orkney 4, and is not over yet.
I just donated another small amount, I hope they are not too stressed, but I am sure the good people of Scotland will donwhat they can to ensure they are not out of pocket.
FROM THE GUARDIAN – FOR INFO:
A senior Lib Dem source said Carmichael was considering whether to seek damages against the petitioners but had not made a final decision. He had had to fund his legal costs largely out of his own pocket and with some party support, while the petitioners had raised £165,000 for their costs from crowdsourcing. They are now seeking £208,000.
Carmichael’s attempt to raise funds through crowdsourcing, launched in September, five months later than his opponents, had been far less successful, raising only £8,340 so far.
“He’s being encouraged by other people to consider seeking costs,” the source said. “He has been personally left with a pretty hefty bill. [I] don’t think he seeks any vindictive redress from the petitioners but they’re costs were crowdfunded. If the boot was on the other foot, they would be seeking their costs from him.”
Its all not here.
http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-judgments/judgment?id=9452fba6-8980-69d2-b500-ff0000d74aa7
He acknowledged that he had answered the questionnaire “less than fully truthfully” (transcript 9 November 2015 page 68). We are satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that it was only after Mr Roddin was identified by means of telephone records as the person who leaked the memo to the Daily Telegraph, and only when the first respondent was interviewed face-to-face on Tuesday 12 May 2015 (some five days after the election), that the first respondent admitted his involvement in the leak.
The fact is, if Roddin had simply gone outside into the street and used a phone box to call torygraph shysters, they’d have got away with the whole fraud.
Carmichael, torygraph, Roddin, unionists in Scotland, use a phone box!
O/T In the article titled “Running On Empty” Stu highlighted the Tory claim that they are running a whole host of exciting new young candidates.Is it not the case that the Tories recently had to cancel a Young Tory conference through lack of interest?
OK, Carmichael won on a technicality, but it was made pretty clear that his conduct was far from what is expected from a person in public office. Meanwhile, the costs have risen to £208,000 – the fund is presently £38,000 short of that. Please help – these people have put their homes on the line for this. If you supported them in the beginning, support them now – it’s needed more than ever! Please contribute and SHARE!!! If you don’t, these good people are in dire trouble – all for trying to hold a lying politician to account.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-people-versus-carmichael#/
@ Bugger (the Panda) says:
9 December, 2015 at 12:14 pm
@Breeks says:
9 December, 2015 at 11:29 am
If you tolerate this, your children will be next.
The Country is not Grubby and little.
Our politicians and the Westminster is though.
I have first hand experience being shat on by the Financial Ombudsman Service, treated like dirt by three thieving and dishonest banks, I have been shat on by an Employment tribunal which couldn’t even articulate what I had done wrong, (in fact nothing), my business routinely suffers the effects of collusion, nepotism and corruption at the hands of my local Council and Scottish Enterprise, and the Ministers responsible, yes, SNP Ministers subject my grievances to all manner of sophistry and avoidance. They do not give a shit. I have had my business further destroyed by HMRC who’s utterly ridiculous assessment of my tax liability some 700% above what was actually due was nevertheless accepted as proof and used against me.
I have no grievance against Scotland’s police or our NHS, but I have been lucky to avoid close contact with either.
Our News media and any pro Scottish narrative is commanded by forces hostile to Scotland’s self determination, and our natural resources are plundered with abandon by Westminster which stabs Scotland’s industrial redevelopment at every opportunity. We are dragged into wars we don’t have anything to do with by a “Government” in Westminster who would supplant our Bannockburn commemoration with their grotesque Armed Forces recruitment day. That is taking the piss, and I am so overjoyed the AFD embarrassed them.
We, the people of Scotland, tolerate it all. Many of us, and I can’t say them because they are all around us in hateful majority, would stand up to defy logic and defend the status quo. This country, and I mean Scotland, is diseased, corruption ruins every strata of our society, and we tolerate it all. Our law courts supplant justice with expediency, and use our poverty against us.
Forgive me if I find this country grubby. My hopes for Scotland are positive and constructive. For now I just speak as I find.
Where is Roddin now?
The fine print of the full judgment makes very interesting reading.
My impression, and I don’t claim a legal mind, is that the judges would very much have liked to rule against him but were hamstrung by the narrow definitions of this particular law.
Statements had to be defamatory on a personal level rather than a public one.
And, by including the report into Westminster’s culture of leaking info for political gain, the judiciary seems to be explaining that they have been constrained into regarding the fact that politicians lie as entirely commonplace.
Thus rendering the public’s outrage over discovering a politician is a liar, impotent in law. We can have no reasonable expectation that a politician would do otherwise.
And because of that – because being a proven liar is therefore not defamatory if you are a politician – there is no impact on his personal character and conduct.
Hence them not being able to uphold the petitioner’s claim under this ancient law.
But what they go on to say about Carmichael’s conduct generally and within the scope of the Cabinet Inquiry leaves you with zero doubt that they are disgusted with him.
If nothing else, the highlighting of the inner workings of standard Westminster practice just makes me even more wishful for Independence.
Can you imagine if we had the chance to create a society and a judicial framework which would ensure transparency and fair dealing? Real democracy? Wow.
Slightly OT, but I had some brand of BBC radio inflicted on me this morning – not sure which station – and they were talking about Vladimir Putin – and how his extended period in office makes him much stronger than our democratically elected leaders, who are seen as weak in comparison because of their need to remain popular with their electorate. ‘Democracy doesn’t work’ was the message I got.
I take the point that a politician who needs to be popular isn’t always going to make the best decisions for his country long term, but perhaps if we could have some faith in the integrity and principles of our politicians, we might, as an electorate, be more willing to listen to why unpopular policy might be necessary and accept longer terms in office for our governments.
Right now, the only party I have any faith in whatsoever is the SNP. Not a single other Scottish MP has ever done what was best for Scotland against the interests of his London party HQ. Ever.
So we continue to build from here. And, yes keep donating to the Orkney 4. Although I can see no mention of an award of costs in the Judgment. If Carmichael pursues the matter privately, hell mend him.
I’d imagine he’d be spat on walking down the street in Lerwick if he did that. Least I’d spit.
And I never spit, I’m a lady!
Carmichael seeking costs? Having been found culpable on 2 out of 3 points and only dismissed on a technicality, he should be so lucky.
He may be awarded partial costs,but he has been found culpable himself, and by his own admission. He has contributed to the need for the case having to be raised.
God, I absolutely LOVE Wings and all who sail in her. Rev Stu is an absolute Godsend. Not for nothing is he the Rev!
Why?
Because in the never-ending battle with No-voting bawbags on Facebook, they have – predictably – come up with the old “But Alex Salmond lied to the electorate too, about EU advice, remember?”
Luckily I was able to search the Wings search tool, and find this. Another forensic analysis of the truth by the Cybernat General.
Keep it handy folks – you’ll be needing it today. And tomorrow. And the next day.
http://wingsoverscotland.com/playing-tricks-on-memory/#more-71643
http://theorkneyvole.com/2015/12/09/initial-statement-from-the-4-orkney-petitioners/
Reports seem to indicate that the blatant liar Carmichael is considering whether to seek damages against the Orkney petitioners. Does anybody out there know if there is a method by which we, the tax payers, may seek to recover the £1.4 million pounds spent on the enquiry into the leaked memo, an enquiry that would have been unnecessary had the blatant liar Carmichael owned up to being responsible in the first place.
How amusing….
All the wee Nats are upset because a politician lied, as if it had never happened before!
So they 4 of their number take him to court.
Then are shocked and stunned when the case is thrown out.
However none of the Nats are at all bothered by the lies SNP politicians tell, much less crowd funding actions against them.
I suspect more than a few SNP politicians will be sleeping more easily in their beds tonight, not having to worry about unionists crowd funding legal actions against them, for the lies they have told.
As it is the Orkney 4 deserve everything they get.
For mounting a politically motivated prosecution which saw SNP branches advertising for funding for the Orkney 4.
Maybe now some of the ‘Bravehearts’ will have learned an important lesson, never commence litigation unless you can afford to lose it.
No doubt another crowd funder will be on the way, to rescue the Orkney 4 from the consequences of their own folly.
As for the Rev’s comments re the Justice system in Scotland, and his diatribe against it.
Funny how he was not saying this when he won a court action against the Johnstone Press, the court’s were not part of the establishment back then!
What a colossal waste of money. This was the obvious result that will only further entrench the divisions in Scottish politics.
So grateful to the Orkney 4 for their actions. Just made another wee contribution – only decent thing to do at this stage. Thinking of them this afternoon
He, apparently, never actually lied about his conduct. He never said it wasn’t him that authorised the leak. He lied about his knowledge of the leak. He also never claimed that he personally would never undertake the actions that he himself acknowledges would have been a resignation issue from his post as SoS for Scotland.
So it was a lie but not the kind of lie relevant to the particular law he was tried under. His personal character is such that had it been known would have given his electorate pause when considering whether they should vote for him.
This just stokes up the inner rage that is building within every fair minded Scot. This silent rage gets worse by the day.
We need an outlet for all this anger.
C’mon Nicola, get that Referendum date announced ASAP.
Big deep breathes, count to ten slowly,
1…2…3…4…
Carmichael should think twice about pursuing the petitioners for costs having just got off by the skin of his teeth on 1 of 3 points in what, by any standards, is a damning judgment.
@ Jenni
last post disappeared so I’ll try again.
The two previous cases Miranda Grell and Phil Woolas I linked to earlier do not seem to bear out the point that the “politcal” smear doesn’t count. The Phil Woolas case seems to be solely political IMO.
Also, the “candidate” is not Nicola Sturgeon but Carmichael himself. By lying he presented himself as an honest broker to the electorate to enhance his chances of success in the run up to an election.
None of the Orkney 4 are members of the SNP—-YET
@Stuart,
You are just a sad tit. Sevco man perhaps?
Please do not respond to trolls. They are malicious easily led fools, not worth bothering with.
@ArtyHetty says: 9 December, 2015 at 12:51 pm:
” … Robert glad to hear you managed to survive that glitch to your bank account, not sure if it applies to pensions but ukok gov are removing post office card accounts for people on benefits, they have to have a bank account, it’s imminent.”
Thanks for that, ArtyHetty, As it happened I was rather unwell too, so not spending as much as usual, such as not running my adapted campervan. This was also why I couldn’t get to the bank to sort out my accounts.
As to the Post Office thing I believe the Post Office does an account that you can have your pension paid into and thus still draw your pension at the PO counter.
The down side being that the UK Gov can than add your state pension payments in that account to any other accounts you have and total your whole income for tax purposes.
Being disabled I fell foul of that little scam after I had my Disability money paid into my then current account.
They ruled that a current account constituted your savings for tax purposes. Even although you used it to pay all your bills on-line and for the extra road-fuel you obviously needed for mobility.
That’s the way they work, crack down on the old, sick, disabled and poor for every last penny but give tax relief to the already rich.
BTW I’ve twice not been able to post because “the site is unavailable for scheduled maintenance”.
Since this is the first time I’ve ever been told that there is scheduled maintenance at 13.15, I am wondering if it is the gremlins back again. Lunchtime is maybe not the best time to schedule maintenance?
Stuart says:
9 December, 2015 at 1:16 pm
How amusing….
All the wee Nats are upset because a politician lied, as if it had never happened before!
Wee nat here Stuart. Sensibledave’s had his rule Britannia so shut it fun and then scarpered, so maybe you can answer a very simple question.
IS this a good day for the UKOK union Stuart?
Alistair, forget that judgement that you heard today.
The Scottish people are the judge and jury.
And we have found you guilty as charged.
None of the Orkney 4 are members of the SNP
Yet Carmichael implied that they are members, and so it was all a conspiracy – the very happening Unionists say is separatist paranoia.
Carmichael is a small, petty, shallow individual, utterly unreliable.
“O/T If Libdems haven’t paid £800,000 to Police Scotland, what chances their paying anything to this farce.”
as to the £800,000
officially from a Police Scotland response to an FOI request
“Finally, subsequent communication resulted in the Home Office agreeing to contribute £15,000 to cover the costs of accreditation associated with the event and the remainder of the costs were absorbed by Police Scotland.”
therefore –
whilst Wee Wullie Rennie runs through the toon,
upstairs and doonstairs, in his night goon,
chappin at the windaes and cryin through the lock –
(aboot police Scotland being underfunded and wrecked by the SNPBAAAAD)
he’s more than comfortable with police Scotland absorbing the remaining £785,000 for costs incurred by his party….
about par for the course for the Lib-Dems
Can you hear that? It’s the sound of many many more people joining the SNP.
O/T
The planes which bombed the Syrian Army post may have been British, and certainly will be NATO. Perhaps the Dishonourable Lying LibDem MP Carmichael might regret voting for this.
https://www.rt.com/news/325179-coalition-jets-syrian-army-attack/
Take a deep breath and calm down folks.
This is a very, very bad day for the establishment and the union because this judgment will sit and fester and fester and fester for decades to come.
They are winning battles but are losing the war.
And they know it!
He failed on one and three of the issues and passed by the skin of his teeth on the second one. Had he said at any time “Vote for me, I’m honest”, he would be gone.
Having looked at key parts of the judgement, it must be said, this is NO victory for Carmichael. The judgement makes it clear his behaviour was not good at all. Indeed, in many ways, whilst he escapes on a technicality (and by virtue of poorly written law) he has been condemned, in every other way. Their is no exoneration for him to be found within the judgement, and he should resign today. He is a disgrace.
Based upon his previous actions, I fully expect him NOT to resign. This is what has become of the (and give some thought about the name) Liberal democrats. A tawdry wee party if ever there was one.
Nothing, and I do mean nothing, will show what Scots think about the corrupt and corruptible Westminster unionists any better than an increase in support for the SNP in May 2016. The only option is to vote SNP twice.
A wee reminder, for those who wish to donate to the legal fund for the Orkney four, it is located here,
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-people-versus-carmichael#/
http://www.scotlibdems.org.uk/alistair_carmichael_statement_following_election_court_decision
Leader of the Liberal Democrats Tim Farron said:
This was the right outcome and Alistair’s focus will remain on delivering for the people of Orkney and Shetland in Parliament.
Since the election, despite the distraction of the case, Alistair has continued to be an incredibly strong voice for Orkney and Shetland.
He has done a huge amount for the Northern Isles over his time in Parliament and will continue to work to the best of his abilities.
http://new.spectator.co.uk/2015/07/i-fear-for-tim-farron-now-the-lefty-inquisitors-are-on-to-him/
LibDem Farron is an evangelist Christian, yet here we are.
Dearly beloved, the sermon today is, What would Jesus do?
So, don’t get caught, dont use work phones, keep lying for as long as possible, then confess, and above all else, don’t get caught.
As Jesus Christ never says, all’s fair in UKOK politics, vile separatists are asking for it. God loves a sinner, if he’s a LibDem.
We’re not a pack of repelent liars and hypocrites at all.
Alex Salmond lied about EU entry.
Heaven’s British.
@ Stuart
“…However none of the Nats are at all bothered by the lies SNP politicians tell…”
Which SNP politicians have been found in a court of law as a proven liar? None – thought so.
If you have a problem with SNP politicians lying then here’s a wee suggestion for you – follow the example of the Orkney Four and take them to the Court of Session. Put your money where your motor mouth is.
In short, you vile sabernat, put up or shut up.
If you were more of a bawbag as opposed to a nawbag, you’d have the balls to do it. But you don’t.
SNP x 2 SE2016
If people spend the day arguing back & forward with sensible dave & stuart they are turning Wings into just another forum like The Scotsman.
I would suggest if people want to spend their time arguing with posters like ‘sensible dave’ & ‘stuart’ they really should be posting on The Scotsman.
@ Martin Woods
Thanks for that Martin, but why would the Home Office contribute penny one and who gets to write off the remaining £785,000.
The best possible result. He damages his side far more by staying on, compromised, reminding everyone what a duplicitous lot the Lib Dems are, than if he quit or was forced out.
Gutted. Absolutely gutted.
Stuart @ 1.16pm
Hahahaha – Braveheart! Is that the best you got. Fatsos a liar and you are clown. Lets see who laughs last , as I am sure it aint gonna be your tribe.
What Nana just said.
We want to put this right, we do it at the ballot. People have a right to be angry and feel cheated. A proven liar and manipulator has effectively been let off in the eyes of the law, but in the eyes of the public taht needn’t be the case. He, his party, those other parties who sought to benefit from his nasty little conspiracy of defamation, the system they support are exposed for all to see.
A system that supports and encourages lies and public manipulation as viable tools in the politicians arsenal. Its as old as time and everyone and their dug knows politicians are a dodgy lot. We’ve all been prepared to wear it over the years so long as it was kept well leashed yeah? Except where has this tolerance got us?
Look at who is in charge and what they were and are prepared to do. Rip us off for decades as a free all expenses paid ride to a career topped off with a clonker of a golden (ermine) handshake. Assault the poor, and victimise the disabled? Not a problem for them. Demonise half the nation of a partner to keep a hold of essential real estate, tax take and natural resources? Done! Go to war for resources and geo political advantage? Ditto! That’s where our politics is at and that is where our apathy over the years has allowed it to be.
It’ll continue in that vein too until we decide to put a stop to it. Those pricks have given the establishment parties carte blanche to carry on as usual today. Its going to require the votes of the public to set them straight on that. We have the power at the ballot to remove those who have abused our trust.
Have fun gloating/baiting, leggit, does seem to be the way of it today with toryboy unionists
So from blue toryboy
Kevin Hague ?@kevverage 3h3 hours ago Gifford, Scotland
This is going to be Twitter for the next 12 hours isn’t it?
Fuck that, I’m offski
To red tory superunionist man, merely
Scott Arthur ?@DrScottThinks 1h1 hour ago Edinburgh, Scotland
Alistair Carmichael statement following election court decision.
And back to full on, evil and cruel Nic Sturgeon caused the great Forth road Bridge disaster, monstering.
A great day for the UKOK red and blue tory unionists all round. It must be a bit weird having so much UKOK fun at what amounts to awful stuff
I suspect the press reaction and analysis of the verdict is going to keep you busy for the foreseeable future Stu….
Ruby says:
If people spend the day arguing back & forward with sensible dave & stuart they are turning Wings into just another forum like The Scotsman.
Take note people. Stuart is just shit stirring, even he does not believe the crap he comes out with.
Any word on the costs?
How much to we have to raise?
Anyone know the actual facts?
Not only a sleazebag, he looks the part admirably.
Ruby, that is the purpose of Stuart and Sensibledave. To disrupt. Folks just don’t learn.
“Not proven” – Judges were feart to take any side.
Bob Mack says:
9 December, 2015 at 1:23 pm
None of the Orkney 4 are members of the SNP—-YET
@Stuart,
You are just a sad tit. Sevco man perhaps?
# Hahaha wrong Bob Mack!
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13412146.Carmichael_says_he__misstated_his_awareness__of_leaked_memo_as_fund_to_unseat_him_tops___60_000/
“driven by Tim Morrison, an SNP member from Orkney”
There you go Bob Mack, whose the ‘sad tit’ now?…
This bit is interesting:
“We had no concerns about the credibility and reliability of the witnesses, with one exception: that related to the first respondent’s [Carmichael’s] evidence that, in the context of questions about the source of the leak, he was not concerned about his reputation or his standing in the constituency. In our opinion the evidence generally, and in particular the evidence about the furious reaction to the leak, the immediate investigation into its source, and the first respondent’s disingenuous approach when responding to the Cabinet Office inquiry, taken with the first respondent’s own evidence in court, proved beyond reasonable doubt that the first respondent hoped not to be identified as being involved with the leak, all as further discussed in paragraphs [65] and [68] to [70] below. We accordingly did not accept the first respondent’s evidence on that matter.”
It must be very nice to have the court only regard you as unreliable in one small very specific area, despite pointing out your proven lies and “disingenuous approach” in many other areas. Would the court give Joe Bloggs the benefit of such huge doubt? No, it wouldn’t.
Verdict fails the reasonable man test.
Humility ? Appropriate time to make political statement ?
If a shit stirs shit then when the shit hits the fan the said shit might consider it better to clean up the shit they stirred by stopping stirring shit.
Shit sticks and the smell lingers.
I rest my case.
In the excerpts of the judgement below, the ‘first respondent’ is Carmichael. It is clear, that Carmichael has behaved in a truly atrocious way throughout. Read what the judges say:
“In our opinion however, the first respondent’s approach to the inquiry was at best disingenuous, at worst evasive and self-serving. We consider that he could and should have been straightforward and candid in his response to the inquiry. That would have been likely to reveal his involvement in the leak at some time prior to the election, so that his constituents, when voting, would have been “in full possession of the facts during the election” (in the third petitioner’s words, transcript 9 November 2015 page 20). It is our opinion that his failure to be straightforward and candid with the inquiry resulted from his hope that he would not be identified as being involved in the leak – preferably not identified at all, but at least not identified until after the election on 7 May 2015, as otherwise his chances of electoral success might be prejudicially affected.”
“…The relevant evidence demonstrated, in our view, that the first respondent’s role in and response to the inquiry were unimpressive. The first respondent stated in evidence that he had agreed at the outset of the inquiry that “ministers and special advisers would co-operate with the inquiry” (transcript 10 November 2015 page 21). Yet in our opinion his evidence relating to the questionnaire issued by the inquiry demonstrated a lack of candour and co-operation on his part. As he explained, he received the questionnaire on or about 12 April 2015. There were four fairly general questions. Two questions which he could recall were along the lines of whether he had received the memo, and if so, what had he done with it. The first respondent said that he felt entitled to answer the first question in the negative, as he had never physically received or seen the memo. As a result, he considered that the second question became “largely redundant” (transcript 9 November 2015 page 75). He commented that answers depended on the questions asked, and that the choice of question was for those conducting the inquiry. By adopting this approach, he “thought that it might have been possible to avoid the whole truth”. He acknowledged that he had answered the questionnaire “less than fully truthfully” ”
Source http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-judgments/judgment?id=9452fba6-8980-69d2-b500-ff0000d74aa7
The para breaks are from the actual text. My bolding.
OT
…needs another 500 signatures to hit 100k
http://www.snp.org/dont-bomb-syria
Fat cunt gets off Scottish free..
Let’s not forget, The Liar has still the Common’s Standards enquiry to get through. But then, they will probably agree that lying is in line with House of Commons Standards no doubt.
Robert Peffers 12:56 pm
“If you had read the thread there are several references to the facts of that matter, but then you are not really interested in the facts, are you?”
…. I really am.
“The law in this matter is electoral law and that is a reserved matter. The court is not Scottish but the judiciary on the bench are.”
So, how does the law get changed so that we get an outcome that we think we should have?
It’s a sad day, heart goes out to the four.
Internationally this is going to be the end for UK politics. I hope.
@ Ruby
“I would suggest if people want to spend their time arguing with posters like ‘sensible dave’ & ‘stuart’ they really should be posting on The Scotsman.”
I hear what you say. But the Unionist trolls come on here and spread lies. You and I can spot their lies, can see their trash a mile off. But what of the newbies, the lurkers who are not so well informed? Some of them might be conned (for that is what the vile sabernats do) into believing their nonsense.
Hence why the sabernats MUST be challenged at every step. Not engaged, just challenged. Either that or Rev just kicks them out permanently.
@sensibledave “So, how does the law get changed so that we get an outcome that we think we should have?”
Either a Government Bill, an opposition Bill, or a private member’s Bill. I.e. same way as law is always made in the UK.
Folks, try to ignore the obvious trolls. They want, especially today, to divert the discussion here from Carmichael on to absurd technicalities. That is what the trolls want, and by arguing repeatedly with them, YOU help achieve THEIR goal, making the thread of comments unreadable.
Please ignore the provocation. Without answers, they run out of steam.
@sensibledave
And yes, I do think one of those will happen real soon now. My bet would be on a Private Member’s Bill.
You’re really quite a useful unionist, giving me the chance to post that.
Anagach says:
9 December, 2015 at 1:52 pm
Ruby says:
If people spend the day arguing back & forward with sensible dave & stuart they are turning Wings into just another forum like The Scotsman.
Take note people. Stuart is just shit stirring, even he does not believe the crap he comes out with.
#No I’m merely pointing out the stupidity of the Orkney 4 in thinking that they would win, and not preparing for the fact that they might lose.
The people who are really to blame are those who egged them on, and who encouraged them to think they could win.
I see now that Nationalists are suggesting that Carmicheal should split the costs of the court case.
Why?
He won!
If the boot had been on the other foot, you would have expected him to pay up, the estimated £1.4 million in costs, and gloated about it.
Oh and Ruby, why are you so afraid of opinions contrary to your own?
As if you are, I suggest you go and live in an echo chamber…
From Rev
Wings is down at the moment as someone is attacking it with a brute force password-hacking bot
@Quinie frae Angus says: 9 December, 2015 at 1:06 pm:
” … in the never-ending battle with No-voting bawbags on Facebook, they have – predictably – come up with the old “But Alex Salmond lied to the electorate too, about EU advice, remember?”
All you need to, “remember”, on that score, Quinie frae Angus, is that particular claim was based upon the Andrew Neil/Alex Salmond TV interview. The BBC transcription of which shows the question Neil asked was, (and I paraphrase), ” … and have you sought the advice from your own Scottish Government Legal Officers”.
So just how does seeking the advice of the SG Law officers translate into seeking advice from the EU in the minds of the Unionists? That’s one of the mysteries of the modern World.
If you challenge a unionist to quote you exactly were and when Salmond made the claim you will not get any answers. Other than, in some cases, the Neil interview and that is total rubbish.
One unionist who really knows how to have fun. To be fair his RT of Carmichael’s Xmas card photo and teddy is very funny.
https://twitter.com/BrianSpanner1
We are getting our noses rubbed in it hard now.
Yesterday UKOK unionists shut down Andy Murray’s sport centre, Green party “buzzing”
Mark Ruskell ?@markruskell Dec 8
Buzzing after huge Park of Keir hearing this morning. We won 5-3. A case of a good idea in completely the wrong location
Murray sport center was a few fields down the side of M9. Drive along M9, housing estates for Sterling and Glasgow everywhere, Bridge of Allan, new housing estates, Andy Murray gets told to fcuk off, by unionists.
Scotland will be kept down and in its place by UKOK unionists, until the day finally comes…
To the trolls that have invited themselves onto this website.
Alistair Carmichael has NOT won anything…
From his own mouth as admitted to HM Court…
http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-judgments/judgment?id=9452fba6-8980-69d2-b500-ff0000d74aa7
As to Alistair Carmichael’s current position relating to his legal costs.
It is up to the court to decide on this. It is entirely competent for HM Court to require each party to pay their own legal costs.
But to the trolls currently making with their excremental comments here, know this. Alistair Carmichael may have escaped justice in CRIMINAL Court. However there is the option to pursue this man in CIVIL Court.
The reason Carmichael got away this time was the burden of proof issue. Today’s judgement required 90%+ evidential standard…
https://archive.is/5T5vF#selection-1703.0-1725.19
The prospective CIVIL ACTION AGAINST ALISTAIR CARMICHAEL will require 50% “balance of probability” burden of proof. Were that the requirement in the current case, Carmichael would most likely have lost.
Even the judge in the current case have labelled Carmichael an unreliable witness…
https://archive.is/5T5vF#selection-1745.0-1749.870
Trolls on here, and Twitter/Facebook social media may gloat, but Scottish democracy and justice is stronger than they understand. A CIVIL action against Carmichael is already under consideration by those with the requisite legal qualifications.
Read the next post. Seems that Carmichael has dropped himself right in ‘it’
http://wingsoverscotland.com/an-abuse-of-trust/
So, Carmichael survives the Election Court but has he broken the Law.
Has the Crown Prosecution Service taken interest in the case. Has anyone reported him to the police.
Stuart says: 1:16 How amusing….
“Then are shocked and stunned when the case is thrown out.”
Oh Stewart again you are wrong, please keep up, the original petition by the blatant liars counsel was to have the case thrown out as you say, but it was rejected, he did have a case to answer was the ruling.
Regarding funding “unless you can afford to lose it” don’t you get it, we can! The only way he can claim damages is to petition the court, if I was giving the liar advice I would say don’t try it, he lost two out of the three points against him.
His reputation is in tatters, he is disgraced, and he by legal ruling is a blatant Liar,How many Lawyers will complain to the law society to remove this liars name?
He shamed his self his family and his profession, he shames political discourse and the body politic.
Tell me Stewart what benefits a man to lose so much, Is a good name not more desired than great wealth, better than silver and gold.
Last reply to you Stewart another silly ill thought out and arrogant post and its hammer time
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O01knIMTEpY
Proud Cybernat says:
9 December, 2015 at 2:01 pm
@ Ruby
“I would suggest if people want to spend their time arguing with posters like ‘sensible dave’ & ‘stuart’ they really should be posting on The Scotsman.”
I hear what you say. But the Unionist trolls come on here and spread lies. You and I can spot their lies, can see their trash a mile off. But what of the newbies, the lurkers who are not so well informed? Some of them might be conned (for that is what the vile sabernats do) into believing their nonsense.
Hence why the sabernats MUST be challenged at every step. Not engaged, just challenged. Either that or Rev just kicks them out permanently.
Ruby replies
The newbies & the lurkers could be like me and find the arguing back and forward off putting.
Why do you think so few people read The Scotsman’s forum?
The UniTrolls are probably posting on here because they get no attention on The Scotsman anymore?
Actually when you see the Rev’s next thread Mr Carmichael may not yet be off any hook.He may have bitten into an even bigger one!!!!
Hate to say it, but I called the decision spot on yesterday.
My next prediction… Any attempt by Carmichael to recover costs will, on the back of the damning judgement, be refused.
The man will now realise that despite being technically innocent of the specific legislation, there is a cost to being a liar in pulic office.
What a good day. Carmichael slips through the net, but huge damage done to the Lib Dems.
Now I’m a wee bit frightened that there’s a bug going around. Stuart and Sensible both off school on one day.
How’s the pre-pubescent acne chaps?
As a point on the news at lunchtime
It was said that the Westminster Standards inquiry will now start, having been halted while the case was in progress.
Giving the damning findings over Carmichaels lies, as confirmed in the final judgements.
I think the SNP must push for his head at Westminster
The Rev might know more or Lallands Peatling Warrior
Heads up let’s get him.
Nice summary Stuart.
Carmichael is finished and he knows it. However, the public ramifications have still to work through for him (and his family). I suspect the opprobrium on the island will be too much and he’ll eventually have to leave.
Perhaps his Lib Dem colleagues can fix a position for him where he’ll be low profile, as it were, BUT as I understand it, he mislead them too…..so, maybe not.
Meantime, for the Orkney 4, thank you for having the courage to tackle this and attempting to flush the blighter out.
@Camz says: 9 December, 2015 at 1:56 pm:
““Not proven” – Judges were feart to take any side.”
However they did pick a side to take. For them, the Scottish Judicial System and the Union it is the wrong side to have chosen.
They will, no doubt, realise that in the fairly near future.
@sensibledave says: 9 December, 2015 at 2:00 pm:
” … So, how does the law get changed so that we get an outcome that we think we should have?”
INDEPENDENCE for the Kingdom of England will get you the outcome you want.
Question: Are you a Libdem supporter?
Answer: Are you calling me a liar?
The cynic in me has unfortunately been proved right yet again. I said so last night. I hate it when my internal cynic is proven right.
This judgement smacks of know your place peasants!
The Law is an ass! The establishment protects it’s own. The people of Scotland are slapped down once again. Man the barricades!
Well I learned a new word today, opprobrium
Definition public disgrace arising from shameful conduct.
common usage “the opprobrium of being closely associated with Carmichael”
synonyms: disgrace, shame, dishonour, discredit, stigma, humiliation, loss of face, ignominy, odium, obloquy, disfavour, disrepute, ill repute, infamy, notoriety, scandal, stain;
Excellent
I can’t say I am surprised, though really disappointed at the judgement in the Carmichael case.
It would have been a very good day for the democratic system if he had been found guilty and had had to resign his seat.
It would have sent a powerful message that lying and smearing your opponents is not acceptable in a democratic society
However his reputation is damaged beyond repair and hopefully the people of the Shetland Islands will see sense and ensure that if he does stand for re-election in 2020 they make sure they vote him out.
To the Orkney 4
Many many thanks for getting the lying toad into Court.
As regards any expense, I have decided I can live without my special bottle of malt for the New Year and the price will be ‘winging’ your way come next pension day.
Slante, and thanks again.
“So, he is officially a “blatant” liar, but because he didn’t actually claim that he wasn’t a blatant liar, that’s ok?”
And this is the outcome: Carmichael’s lying continues. He claims the court case was politically motived (by SNP supporters, undoubtedly). He can now get away with such misleading statements so long as he does not also state he is as honest as the day as long. And how many TV reporters and newspapers are going to give an accurate run-down of the petitioners in this case? Damn few, I reckon.
Funding might be a different matter, but what the hell, if Wings and other supporters of Independence can’t put their spare cash to good use, who can? Personally, though I doubted a really positive outcome I hoped my donations would go to support foodbanks. Perhaps they might do so yet as I have not read anything about whether the petitioners have to pay costs.
Bill Hume at 2:27 pm
You wrote “Stuart and Sensible both off school on one day.”
er, from what I have read that has come from Stuart, I would like Independence from him please.
Plus, slow day today. It seems that the prospect of a few national holidays at the end of the month means that my clients need to stop work at the beginning of December to prepare. As a result, I find myself free to educate and inform.
As an aside, I was late to the “The Scottish Media Dictionary” thread so my incisive thoughts and information was missed by most, sadly.
@ Ruby
“The newbies & the lurkers could be like me and find the arguing back and forward off putting.”
Or they might not be like you.
What then?
As I said challenge them, don’t engage them. This means we debunk their rubbish without directly engaging them in discourse. They present their ‘facts’. We challenge their ‘facts’ by presenting better, more reliable facts – the actual informed facts.
Please think kindly of this man, he cannot help being a two faced liar as he is a member of the Liberal Party and as such he has got to hold up the traditions of this party from Jeremy Thorpe to ” power sharing” with the Tories.
May I suggest that if voting next May and you should not tick Liberal or Labour as an alternative and tick the Tory box for at least you know where you stand with them, but most of all tick SNP.
Sensibledave AKA Donald Trump. Big head.
I wonder how many of the following questions he will be asked by MSM ‘journalists’?
Do you regret having lied to the people?
Would you do it again in the same circumstances?
Will you be resigning?
Will you stand in Orkney again?
As for our champions of justice there is only one question:
Why are you?
The verdict is damning not only for Carmichael but also the legal system itself.Its so expensive that for most of us its just not possible to pursue a long drawn out and complex case(i have had a bitter experience myself with Delotte and was warned that although i had a good case i would probably be ruined by the costs before i even got to court,never mind the stress).I’m afraid the legal system is designed to keep us plebs in our place and until its affordable for all there will be many more like Carmichael whose wrongdoings will never see the light of day.
Bob Mack 3.25
It is harder to think of a worse insult that being equated to Donald Chump. There are limits to what even a nice guy like me can take.
it’s going to be interesting to see how many Lib/Dem candidates invite Mr Carmichael to help out on the campaign trail during the elections for Holyrood, I mean would you, if you were one of them?
Strangely enough Sensible Dave, though as you know we rarely agree my memory serves me that you were horrified at this man Carmichael’s behaviour. So I expect that you are here commiserating with us, that a we are now to expect less than decent behaviour by our politicians. That Carmichael also allowed an inquiry to go ahead costing the country a considerable sum all the time knowing who was responsible, himself.
I wonder if the said Mr Carmichael has considered that in pursuing for costs he is pushing himself further and further into the mire. Perhaps he should be handing the money to Foodbanks, he certainly needs a diet of bread and water and be pilloried in Church for lying.
So, will the proven liar (66% liar acording the the court) do as Alistair Darling did and resign the bar before his lawyer friends do it for him ?
I actually feel sorry for O&S electorate because they will now have no opportunity to elect and actual Liberal. Although since I gather that Carmichael only got back in due to the Orkney vote and not the Shetland vote.
I am perhaps more sympathetic to Shetland right the now as the majority of Orkney voters if what I previously heard is right voted for a liar and a charlatan.
This reminds me of Andy Wightman’s book “The Poor Had No Lawyers” which describes how the rich gained the land of Scotland. In theory nowadays the poor do have Lawyers but only if you can afford them to take on a case like this. In other words the 5% who own 95% still rule – OK/UK. Time for a change methinks.
Politicians make the law, so politicians protect themselves. Why be surprised? The judges were limited in what action they could take. Nevertheless, they condemned him as a liar. We now have something to work with
Fifty quid towards the pot.
@sensibledave.
You signed the keep him out petition yet?
heedtracker says:
9 December, 2015 at 1:28 pm
Stuart says:
9 December, 2015 at 1:16 pm
How amusing….
All the wee Nats are upset because a politician lied, as if it had never happened before!
Wee nat here Stuart. Sensibledave’s had his rule Britannia so shut it fun and then scarpered, so maybe you can answer a very simple question.
IS this a good day for the UKOK union Stuart?
To answer that Heedtracker;
It’s been a marvellous day, a politically motivated, campaign of mob justice has not prevailed.
Nicola Sturgeon is under pressure to do something about tax avoiding Phil Boswell!
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/624673/SMP-SNP-MP-Phil-Boswell-tax-probe
&
To cap it off this!
https://twitter.com/heraldscotland/status/674574336175423488
So yes all in all I’d say it’s been a pretty good day all round, as the SNP get hit left, right and centre!
Carmichael has ‘won’? I don’t think so! He’s now known as an out and out liar and a truly untrustworthy, despicable man. Not in politics to serve his constituents but to serve himself. Will this have an impact on his already hauf-deid Pairtie? Will the Islanders welcome him home with open arms? Fit to be an Elder in the Church? Let’s see how it all pans out for him over the next few weeks / months.
The outcome of this Case highlights that many, if not most, Laws are totally archaic and are in dire need of being dumped or ‘upgraded’. I spent years and a great deal of money trudging from one Court to another and eventually lost due to a ‘technicality’ in the House of Lords. Technically these ‘technicalities’ can be brought into play, or not, to ensure the desired outcome. For most ordinary people …. Justice. NOT.
However, IMO, at the end of the day the O4 (we) haven’t lost their Case at all. Carmichael has been outed and it’s on record forevermore. Many disgruntled no voters will be in the process of changing their tune. The corrupt Establishment can clearly see that the power dynamic is shifting …. more power to the people …. as a collective we have fired a warning shot across their bow and they now know what we are capable of doing.
Someone has mentioned that the O4 could go ahead with a Civil Case against Carmichael. I don’t know if that would be possible in relation to this type of case, but more than anything I reckon that they’ve probably had enough of it all: The stress. If so they should pay their bills, as agreed, and settle down at home for a much needed rest. You can’t get out of paying legal fees and to try to do so would drag them down to his (Carmichael’s) level.
Once again my thanks to the four ordinary people, Scots, who were brave enough to take on the high and mighty nefarious Establishment: More than anything never really knowing how this could / would affect them financially. Well done to you.
Only in your tiny mind stuart.
IS this a good day for the UKOK union Stuart?
To answer that Heedtracker;
It’s been a marvellous day, a politically motivated, campaign of mob justice has not prevailed.
Are you really certain of that Stuart? Sane minds will probably be reflecting on a democratic setup like the UK’s and wondering how on earth future Lord carmincheal got away with it.
As a wee nat, I have no idea how he off with it really.
It looks like he got off on this mob justice thing, a court in Edinburgh because, yes he’s a bare faced liar, but he was a UK.gov sec of state, so because he is a shyster, he didnt shyste a specific electorate, his own in Orkney and Shetland?
But he’ll bumble onwards and downwards, knowing that the UKOK media will protect him and boost him, BBC Scotland will cover up and monster opposition, these horrifying liars and hypocrites this afternoon already provide a neat example of how UKOK hacks are completely shameless.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/dec/09/alistair-carmichael-lib-dem-election-court-throws-out-attempt-to-unseat-mp
Rule Britannia Stuart but for how much longer?
Breaking News
BBC broadcast Alistair Carmichael bragging, and I quote…
“I am and I shall continue to be the member of parliament for Orkney & Shetland”
Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-35049150
So that’s that then. Only it isn’t the end of this process. Sorry to burst your bubble Alistair, but your dishonourable lying conduct has NOT saved your job. Far from it.
The Insolvency Act 1986 (Section 427) states:-
(4) Where a member of the House of Commons who is disqualified under this section continues to be so disqualified until the end of the period of 6 months beginning with the day of the adjudication or award, his seat shall be vacated at the end of that period.
Source: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1986/45/section/427
https://archive.is/kiFzF#selection-2015.0-2019.255
As of today, legal advice is being studied regarding a fresh CIVIL action whereby the level of proof is “in the balance of probability” that Carmichael lied rather than the “beyond reasonable doubt” as in the Representation of the People Act 1983 case that was thwarted today.
The CIVIL court action would be for recovery of monies and pecuniary advantage that Alistair Carmichael’s lies and dishonesty brought for him. If it can be proven to a 51% “balance of probability” that Alistair Carmichael lied and his lies secured him money he would not otherwise have obtained had he told the truth, then he may have an awful lot to repay should HM Court be so minded to rule accordingly. If he can’t pay, then action will be taken to see Alistair Carmichael sequestrated.
There already appears to be a valid case to recover ill-gotten gains from this proven liar.
Alistair Carmichael is far from safe in his seat. Methinks he doth croweth too much to misquote Shakespeare.
Where is the Cutty Stool when you need it?
Failing to find a Cutty Stool is there any chance we could drag that lying toad Carmichael down to Abernethy Church in Perthshire and put him in the Jougs? There is a lovely set of these implements fastened to the wall in Abernethy Round Tower. A few days locked in them might convince him and others of his like to reconsider their ways.
@Stuart,
You are amusing because you are dim.
The faults on the bridge that you refer to were under FETA Look it up.All labour councils.
Express story. Still laughing.The guardians of the truth eh?
Clutching at straws won’t stop you drowning mate.You are a joke who can only quote whatever uneducated rubbish you read. I was right about Sevco wasn’t I ?
So I take it Sturgeon will be resigning for lying about not wanting a Tory majority. She might never have said it but Im sorry you all know it is what she and you wanted…it is what every nationalist has wet dreams about..fighting the good fight on behalf of noble Scottish yeomen against dastardly English toffs. Also tactically the Tories were the only party who would give a realistic opening for an indyref2 with the possibility of a brexit vote.
So please…im begging you…even if you cant be honest with the rest of us at least try and be honest with yourselves…
Thank you Orkney 4 – the job has been done. He is a lying bastard and two judges say so. Will donate again if current donations don’t take you to the target.
Of course never believe the Beeb but Brian Taylor says: “It is believed those expenses are in the realm of £150,000.
Two scenarios are possible. Either there is an agreement between the parties as to expenses. Or it goes back to court for a ruling.”
Make the bastard go back and grovel for his expenses.
The Courts may no award his expenses, as he lied and admitted lying. Another way to skin the cat. A cat with no cream. Or even roast the hog. An example to them all. A bunch of criminals. Hold their feet to the fire.
The real message that has been sent out here is that the less wealthy have no access to justice when it comes to MPs unless they are wiling to put it all on the line. This case has illustrated just how untouchable our politicians are in reality.
The brave 4 people who stood up on behalf of us all have put themselves through hell here. Was there any progress on getting a sort code and acc number to donate to their cause?
I heard the lying rat being interviewed on the radio on the way home tonight. I couldn’t listen.
Disgusted.
@Dunderheid,
Appropriate Avatar.
Haven’t time to read all the post, but I’d just like to put this out there for consideration.
We should be prepared for some VERY strange voting patterns come May. The polls may turn out to be liars, if you know what I mean.
Just sayin’ like…
It’s his childrens future he has harmed. It is not difficult to imagine an interview going like;
“Well, I can’t think of anything else. You’ve ticked all the boxed. From the Orkney’s are you. Any relation to the famous MP?”
“He’s my father actually.”
“Ahh, ahh, we’ll let you know in the next few days…”
@Bob Mack
That is literally the most original and funniest thing anyone has ever said on this blog or its comments….I will retire in shame and humiliation
I also notice a few Yoonejits attempting to rub salt in the wound.
Don’t rise to them. Just not worth any of your time and effort. They’re just plain stoopid.
Folk like them will try to pretend they were yessers all along the minute indy comes along. Turncoats.
I had predicted this a long time ago:
yesindyref2,
“News from the Carmichael case: “Judges call for further evidence in Alistair Carmichael election court case”.
So it’s past the first hurdle, where the defence attempted to get it thrown out as not being applicable to S106.”
All this means is that the judge has decided that enough funds have not yet poured down into the legal sewer and this farce should go on a bit more.
The lying defaming Carmichael has already been cleared in secret by the free masons that run the justice system.
The Scottish justice system is rotten to the core and the vast majority of lawyers, expecially judges, are the lowest of the low.
Well there is law by statute, and there is moral law.My view is that statute law has failed us, the people of Scotland, and has failed to protect our First Minister from whatever next rascal determines to bear false witness against the office of First Minister.
Statute law is written up in language that most will find difficult to fully comprehend, and requires study to qualify to practise. Moral law derived from your upbringing and your conscience. Carmichael may have secured a victory by statute, but he has failed miserably in moral law. What now Church of Scotland, do you run with statute or moral law over Carmichael’s suitability as a church elder?
Carmichael, a Scot, sought to damage the reputation of a young woman of impeccable character, our First Minister of Scotland, the highest political position in our country. I suppose i must not apply the appropriate description of him.
Step 1 is to protect the Orkney 4, step 2, an appeal?
Fancy taking a lead on this Rev? This is history in the making, be in no doubt.
Cannot believe he is playing sympathy card.
If he had not lied.
None of this would have happened.
Take responsibility for your actions.
That is how is was brought up.
Some leader!
grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
I think if anyone is lying to themselves it is you dunderheid.
Are you a human lie detector or something? Or is it your incredibly stupid imagination.
I assume the later.
Here you go stuart. Knock yourself out.
https://archive.is/FhHdl
https://archive.is/F81R2
https://archive.is/nDaWv
https://archive.is/B6RCT
https://archive.is/TO0zP
I could go on and on.
dunderheid says: 4:49 pm
“So I take it Sturgeon will be resigning for lying about not wanting a Tory majority. She might never have said it”
What? you need to give us something to go on! What else did she not say she should apologise for not saying. As rest is insane ramblings I take it you don’t know what you chosen name means or is this an attempt at irony?
Cannot believe he is playing sympathy card.
If he had not lied.
None of this would have happened.
Take responsibility for your actions.
That is how i was brought up.
Some leader!
grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
I have said this many times.
We are cowards who don’t have the guts for a Ghandi style independence campaign.
We cannot ever get independence as long as we accept the verdicts of the rotten to the core British establishment and play according to their rules.
Anyone still banging on about the Scots being “sovereign”?
“Sovereign” my foot.
Right my little Wangers!
In the interests of political balance, when are you starting a crowd funder to take Derek McKay to court?
http://labourhame.com/derek-mackay-admits-key-repair-work-was-cancelled
“The case for a full parliamentary inquiry into the Forth Road Bridge closure was strengthened today after the SNP Transport Minister admitted key repair work was cancelled in 2010.
Speaking on BBC Radio Scotland’s Good Morning Scotland programme, Derek Mackay admitted that key repair work cancelled in 2010 would have replaced the damaged section that forced the closure of the Forth Road Bridge last week.
This directly contradicts Mr Mackay’s claim in Parliament yesterday that the works identified in 2010 did not cover the fault area.”
Seems like wee Derek has some questions to answer about whether he told porkies at Holyrood yesterday.
As well as Nicola Sturgeon.
I’ll start the ball rolling with a fiver…
This is just pissing into the wind, but this is the message I have sent via the Limp Dums web site:
“I can understand that you were unable to consider his case whilst the court case was pending.
However, now it has now been concluded that, on a narrow point of law, he has not infringed the relevant legislation, I now want to ask you what action you are going to take.
He has admitted lying to the public, his constituents and Parliament over the issue in question.
This conclusion was endorsed by the election court—they ruled that under the legislation it was acceptable to lie.
Are you going to accept the continuation as an MP in your party of a proven and self-confessed liar?
If so, on what grounds can you justify this, except that clinging on to power is the duty of every MP.
In that case you have exposed your party as one with no principals, beliefs, and one that can no longer make any claim to the noble title of Liberal.
I await your response with interest.”
Let’s bomard them.
Mark Austin
http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/analysis/1335353-stephen-daisley-on-alistair-carmichael-and-the-nicola-sturgeon-memo/
This is fun too, if insulting. Just what exactly is SO wrong about being able to take your elected representative to court for pretty spectacular fraud.
Britnats poopoo it all but its worth bearing in mind that Carmicheal farted his memo into the UKOK media ferment, the day after Sturgeon did well in a national tv debate with Milliband. He clearly held on to his memo and released it to directly monster Sturgeon as hard as possible with impeccable timing.
More importantly, he kicked off blue toryboy’s whole Salmond is Scotch thief pickpocketing hard working English taxpayers GE election campaign, slotting it neatly into the plea to English voters to keep Scots out of British politics, Scots being SNP and you dont want Scotland anywhere near your democracy do you.
So Carmichael is a lot more than a simple soul lying by accident, he was a cornerstone in a deeply racist English election campaign, which has ofcourse now been buried by our fraudster UKOK media.
O judgment! thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason….
How can it stand if you vote for a man and he lied to get the job, but that’s ok, you have to suck it up?
Once again the law is an ass, written by donkeys for fools to ride!
Can you ever imagine a liberal being trusted with the truth again?, this oaf has destroyed his own party, and he hasn’t the wit to see that.
Scottish Liberal democrats, we will say anything in the pursuit of power, all politicians lie our new motto omnes nostri politici mentior?
“Our only MP is a proven liar, you cant trust a single word we say”, and this is their declared policy.
How it works. Victorious Carmichael off the UKOK front page with in hours
http://www.theguardian.com/uk
To be fair, these shysters said vote Nick Clegg’s LibDem 6 years ago
Proud Cybernat says:
9 December, 2015 at 3:00 pm
@ Ruby
“The newbies & the lurkers could be like me and find the arguing back and forward off putting.”
Or they might not be like you.
What then?
Ruby replies
We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. 😀
I reckon if the UniTrolls were ignored there wouldn’t be a problem because they would disappear back to The Scotsman and anyone who wanted to ‘challenge’ the UniTrolls they could spend the 24/7 on The Scotsman challenging them.
I’m sure there are a lot of newbies & lurkers reading The Scotsman. Why do the Scotsman’s UniTrolls go unchallenged.
Sure I know it is easy to get wound up by the likes of sensible dave & Stuart especially when you see comments like ‘Right my little wangers’ but I reckon the secret is not to read their flame-baiting abusive posts or to realise that the best thing to do is ignore them they really hate that!
Ruby
Done!
Both Sensible and Stuart are dead to me!
I see Stuart the Troll, who sometimes calls himself sensibledave, who sometimes calls himself dunderheid, who sometimes calls himself grahamski falkirk is wasting everybody’s time again.
C’mon, Wingers, we can do better. Don’t feed a troll: starve the son-of-a-bitch to death.
3 things were proven/concluded
Prove that Carmichael intentianally lied and followed this up with more.
Proved that he also lied to improve his chances of re-election:
“the judges were satisfied that it had been proved beyond reasonable doubt that the first respondent made the false statement of fact “for the purpose of affecting (positively) his own return at the election”. ”
The last finding is that neither of these facts are against the law within representation of the people act.
Carmichael should step down as it is proved he intentionally tried to falsely influence the election even if it was not unlawful is it certainly unethical. He is not a victim the other candidates are.
Secondly, the law is obviously flawed but is reserved. The Scottish government should pass a vote/law that people who are proven of unethical behaviour in a public office in Scotland can be dismissed and banned from any public office eg. by majority vote in parliament . In other words to get around election law reserved to westminster.
Dunderheid
Blue Tories or Red Tories….
What do they have in common?
Answer….they are both Tories!
@stuart,
Playing with words mate.
The fault they refer to was on the cross joints on the carriageway ,not on the anchors, which was only recently discovered. The Kingston Bridge in Glasgow had exactly the same issue.Was it closed? No, because it is still safe to use.
The latest fault rendered it unsafe.
Try research buffoon.Especially when you have no knowledge of the subject
Ruby says:
9 December, 2015 at 5:49 pm
Proud Cybernat says:
9 December, 2015 at 3:00 pm
@ Ruby
Ruby, I’d like to wade in here, with my enormous pomposity at full bloom. But everyone has an absolute to their opinion, no matter how much you might disagree with it.
Once you accept that fundamental thingee about democracy, you don’t get mad, you don’t get try to get even, you respect their opinions and you debate with them, mostly!
So what if our friend Stuart there calls YES voters wee nats. I like that. I’m 6′ 2.
That is all:D
Shy Unionist @11.03,
Oh piss off you useless twat. Away and iron your sash. I bet you have sighed relief plenty of times when the local mason, sorry sheriff, gave you a slap on the wrist yet again for putting a brick through someone’s window for being a Catholic.
Better together my arse. Away and bang your drum you worthless butcher apron loving ("Tractor" - Ed). You probably get a hard on thinking about Hitler. Your head needs reshaving. Were you the one in Monkton holding up that blood spangled banner?
Stephen.
Do you think that sensible dave, Stuart or any of the other UniTrolls are making a contribution to Wings when Wings have a fund raiser?
No they are not everyone contributing financially to Wings is paying for UniTrolls to post here.
Quite frankly the idea that I’m paying for Sensible Dave & Stuart to post here puts me off donating!
@ Bob Mack 5.57
Well said. Took the words from my mouth.
@Stuart – A little knowledge is a dangerous thing indeed.
I think this is one of those cases where there’s a grey area that shades from “That action is entirely legal” to “That action is entirely illegal”, and hence why he wasn’t found in breach of the relevant act. :-/ So whilst the judges didn’t give us the answer we might have expected they did act properly.
That said, and as has been mentioned above, this isn’t exactly the dream result if you’re either Carmichael or the LibDems. “He’s a liar” is now just a quote from a court case, so hardly something he can complain about! *If* he stays in post and then attempts to get re-elected, his (potential) constituents should find some way of asking him for an on-the-record statement as to honesty in future. i.e. Something that, if the Orkney 4 had been able to produce, would have damned him totally in this court case. And if he refuses to give such a statement, they should then publish his reticence along the lines of “When asked, the known liar Mr Carmichael refused to state that in future he would only act honestly if re-elected”. (It’s a trap! He could be damned if he does, and certainly damned if he didn’t!)
However I do suspect that there might be a by-election in the new year … Yes, at the moment he’s saying “I intend to remain as the MP for Orkney & Shetland” but if he attempts to recover his costs from the Orkney 4 then this is likely to generate something of a backlash which he can then use to resign saying “He’s being forced out” and thus help continue the “SNP BAD!” meme. (And just in time for the 2016 Holyrood elections too.)
I think the best approaches for those who feel hard done by over this are to :-
[1] Write to their MP asking about having the Representation of the People Act amended so that “Smearing an opponent” is not in any way a protected activity. (Be sure to mention that devolution probably requires some changes to it anyway.) This probably won’t achieve anything much, but it’s worth a try!
[2] Bide your time. Sooner or later the opportunity to use this case against the LibDems will arise, Holyrood 2016 if nothing else. “Hello, I’m the LibDem candidate for …”. “Hello. Are you an honest person, or are you a liar like Carmichael?”. 😀
heedtracker
I think you just like a good argument! Pity I’m 1. in a good mood 2. got better things to do otherwise we could have a good old ding-dong re ‘feeding the trolls’
Just out of interest do you post on The Scotsman? Do you challenge the many UniTrolls who post there?
The depressing/boring thing about UniTroll arguments is that they have all been done to death it’s all the SSDD.
Giving Goose@5.57.
I think you mean lying wankers.
All Unionists LIE. Red, Blue, YELLOW (with a hint of shite)
Had a feeling last night it was going this way.
The best thing to do is,
dust ourselves down, help the troops and get ready for the next battle.
We will say when the fight is over.
Carbunc-lie better practice at disappearing up his own arsehole.
His tea is oot.
Helena Brown at 3:51 pm
You wrote: Strangely enough Sensible Dave, though as you know we rarely agree my memory serves me that you were horrified at this man Carmichael’s behaviour.”
Ah Helen, Thank you!
You may find it interesting to read the comments addressed to me following my comment earlier today: “… its hard to understand how this judgement could have come about. Clearly the man lied and was complicit in deceit.
Such is the mentality of some of the less intelligent Wingers – that comment was translated as me “gloating”!
It gives you a wee insight into the bunker mentality of the tin foil hat brigade that sometimes congregate here. They require every non-SNP voter to disagree with them on everything – or the world will end or something! Hey Ho!
Hey Stu!
If you see this, don’t know whether it’s because of the jiggery-pokery going on at your host and the maintenance intervention, but the link to your newest post ‘An Abuse of Trust’, doesn’t show up when I click on the Home Button at top of page.
I have to get to it from the link on your twitter feed.
(Could perhaps be a fault my end, not sure)
Cheers.
Carmichael lied , he admitted he lied, yet the memo details are still treated by the media as true. Sadly that is the message that the headline readers(there are more than you think) will absorb into their subconscious.
O/T HMRC sending out letters about Scottish rate of Income Tax coming into effect in 2016. “…some of your Income Tax will be paid to the Scottish Government”?
Swami Backverandah says:
9 December, 2015 at 6:19 pm
Hey Stu!
If you see this, don’t know whether it’s because of the jiggery-pokery going on at your host and the maintenance intervention, but the link to your newest post ‘An Abuse of Trust’, doesn’t show up when I click on the Home Button at top of page.
Ruby replies
http://wingsoverscotland.com/an-abuse-of-trust/
How ungracious in victory, if it can be called that.
The depressing/boring thing about UniTroll arguments is that they have all been done to death it’s all the SSDD.
Ruby are they making a good unionist case though? It may not be easy but let them do their stuff. We all still have to get along. They’re the minority, Red tory Scotland was awful, blue Tory England is seriously harming Scotland and we all can see it. Don’t buy UKOK media, keep stating your case, SNP X 2 next May.
Look how far Scotland’s come and look how hard unionists have had to work to stop Scotland.
Off topic, but the Robert Gordon University have announced that they have withdrawn Trump’s honorary degree.
By denying he knew about the existence of the “document” before it appeared in the Telegraph, when in fact he was instrumental in it being “leaked”, he clearly told a lie. He admitted it after being elected. Beyond the fine points of electoral law, (aka Westminster fudge), he did lie to the electorate. He is a lame duck MP.
Just watched Scotland tonight and to be fair I thought they covered it fairly.
@ Ruby
“Why do the Scotsman’s UniTrolls go unchallenged.”
Because most of us here won’t give that rag the click-bait. We want to see that rag in such dire straits financially that it has to shut up shop for good, taking their sabernats with them.
Well I watched the Britannia TV Aberdeen version and I wouldn’t agree with any statement that they covered it fairly. I am though fine for several reasons with what I see as pro UKOK bias on their part as it will only disgust even more people.
It also seems to me that they are already softening us up for the Standards so called Commissioner taking absolutely no action against him at all. The narrative is already there.
There was no graciousness from Carmichael in his victory either as far as I am concerned. It was nauseating and stomach churning to watch and listen to.
Oh and to Stuart, I am proud to call myself a wee Nat, all 6ft 3 inches and 200lbs of me. I will wear it as a badge of honour.
AC is far from off the hook. Outwith the narrow confines of the RotPA, the argument against him can be made more generally.
eg You could argue that if this were a senior police officer who, as a matter of court record, had lied to the public in this way, the officer’s position would be untenable.
Will be interesting to see the timescale of the westminster inquiry. It’s not like they need to take any statements, so they should be acting quickly.
@Stuart 1.16
The case was not thrown out. He was guilty not only by what the Judges said but also from his own substantial mouth. He kept his job on a legal technicality, only.
You like the Law are asses.
BTW the creep and his lib dem supporters (all tarnished by the liar) did try to crowd fund, but failed miserably.
Up in the Northern Isles, it seems that quite a few of the:
“Proud scot but….”
types, are now:
“He is a liar, but…”
And so the unionist blinkers go up again in flash. Fingers in the ears. Such is their stubborn belief in the union and their hatred of the SNP, they seem to be willing to accept being represented in parliament by such a despicable character and proven liar as Carmichael. How pathetic is that?
And so the unionist blinkers go up again in flash. Fingers in the ears. Such is their stubborn belief in the union and their hatred of the SNP, they seem to be willing to accept being represented in parliament by such a despicable character and proven liar as Carmichael. How pathetic is that?
STV news here in Aberdeen had vox pop with four people in Kirkwall, three English, one Orcadian, only the Orcadian couldn’t criticise Carmichael.
Proud Cybernat says:
9 December, 2015 at 6:52 pm
@ Ruby
“Why do the Scotsman’s UniTrolls go unchallenged.”
Because most of us here won’t give that rag the click-bait. We want to see that rag in such dire straits financially that it has to shut up shop for good, taking their sabernats with them.
Ruby replies
Tut! That’s a pathetic excuse! All that will happen is The Scotsman’s UniTrolls will start posting on Wings effectively turning Wings into another version of The Scotsman.
Look at what’s happened on ‘The Herald’!
What about the lurkers & newbies who read The Scotsman?
I’ve tried but now I give up with both you and Heedy!
Just tried twice to post on Libdem voice site to suggest those who are hailing this as a vindication of Carmichael actually read the judgement. Both posts vetoed by Carol Lindsay, prominent libdem voice.Liberal? Democratic? Pathetic. No wonder they face political oblivion. Roll on May next year.
On television tonight he was still lying – he said the action was politically motivated and that it was the SNP who were the moving force behind the whole thing. The report immediately cut to Stuart Hosie’s trenchant rebuttal of that.
Two out of the three judgements went against him and the third was not by any measure an exoneration.
The fall out from this will continue for some time and will not do the LibDems any favour.
Is it ok to say the UK is a failed state now?
Party politics in Scotland is dead.
Carmichael blew the “it’s a Nationalist plot” dog whistle and they all backed off. No mauling, not a whimper.
Now if it was SNP leaking the reaction would be???
Only SNP vs the unionistas now. The ConLibLab pact.
To me the real issue is and always has been, not the lying by Carmichael, or the ‘leak’, but who concocted the ‘memo’?
The memo looks like it was specially written for the purpose of leaking, in order to damage the SNP, right after the TV debate when Sturgeons popularity soared. It clearly bears no resemblance to reality.
I remember watching Camerons face while Nicola was speaking, and I thought, he is thinking, I have to do something about this.
Dippy Dave tells us we are beneath contempt: Such is the mentality of some of the less intelligent Wingers
Surely we should now ask every Unionist candidate before every election from now on to state in writing whether they will tell any lies in this campaign.
If they say no, then tell any lies at all, they will be taken to court and lose.
If they say yes or dont answer, thats not going to look too good either.
Grousey 7.56
No Grousey, – you and Heedy! The two Dumb Brothers that can’t read!
Sorry everyone for the o/t , but is Willie Rennie a glove puppet? Git.
sensibledave says:
9 December, 2015 at 8:17 pm
Grousey 7.56
No Grousey, – you and Heedy! The two Dumb Brothers that can’t read!
Watch it. I am considerably dumber that Grousebeater sensibledave, yet never nearly dumb enough to be a toryboy, like you.
Go figure.
bugsbunny @6.00pm
Dry your eyes, ya numpty.
The ruling today will probably benefit the SNP in the long run.
Glamaig. 8.13 pm.
”Surely we should now ask every Unionist candidate whether they will tell any lies in this campaign.”
”If they say No….”
That must surely count as the first lie.
Shy Unionist@8.48,
So you are really a cybernat is disguise?
Stephen.
You can’t pigeonhole me, Stephen.
“That must surely count as the first lie.”
Yes, Carmichael reaffirms the classic logical illogicality.
A piece of paper – on one side is written “The statement on the reverse is true.
One the other side is written: The statement on the reverse is a lie.
Carmichael cannot, will not, ever be trusted again.
How long before we are made aware in big headlines that the Honourable Liar has been subject to cyber abuse ?
Frankly I would have been surprised if they had forced an election. That would rattle too many cages. However, the words of the judgement are pretty damning and far from being clearing Carmichael they have in effect handed down a not proven verdict.
The judgement in its full detail is no succour to the Liberals at all and in the end they will run away from the words in the judgement.
Carmichael lied and he did so with ill intent.
There is no harm in reminding people of that.
Carmichael is nothing more than a big fat lying useless cunt of an individual. A church elder ffs. Probably a fucking mason too. My old Grandpa was both in his youth. Mind you, that was a very long time ago. He’d probably think he was bringing both into disrepute today.
Me? I think they sum up both organisations perfectly. Wouldn’t piss on either of them if they were in fire.
Stephen.
BTW. I was both brought up in the Kirk and a Rangers supporting family. Me? Let’s say my favourite graffiti I like to see on the wall is FTQ.
Stephen.
Carmichael couldn’t go. Remember he does great bawdy and filthy after dinner speeches for the pissed up Britnat meeja.
Here’s the crowd funder for anyone wishing to support the Orkney 4 with their legal expenses. Money in the pocket of the already rich but a real need to save these good folk form bankruptcy.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-people-versus-carmichael#/
I just heard they’ve found definite proof Carmichael had sex with his dog
Now I don’t know if that’s true but he’s denied it so I reckon it must be true
But then again I don’t know only he will
Wonder what else he’s prepared to deny or at least get round to admitting he’s prepared to deny when questioned on the dog sex scandal
Reminds me, must email The Torygraph or The Guardian
WTF Daily Record will print anything especially if it’s pro OO or Anti which I’m reliably told Carmichael is (both)
Sneaky smear from far UKOK right henchman in Scotland. None of the people involved were SNP in any way, or maybe they were. Hard core unionist henchmen are not idiots though, so they must know something, or maybe not. We’ll never UKOK know. Or maybe we will. You cant trust any freakin unionist now. You know when you’ve been UKOK Carmichaeled.
Kevin Hague Retweeted
euan mccolm ?@euanmccolm 8h8 hours ago
people in the snp who are not idiots have never been in favour of the carmichael thing.
Bugsbunney: “Away and iron your sash.”
Excellent! Top marks for scathing humour. 🙂
There is something quite perverse about Alistair Carmichael and his highly paid defence team pigging out on funds raised by many people who could ill afford to give it, which could have been used to help a great deal of struggling families, especially at this time of year.
How these people sleep at night is beyond belief.
Grousebeater,
I aim to please.
Stephen.
Alistair Carmichael, his honour and dignity are the true face of unionism.
The mans nae worth the sweat oot the crack of my earse and the absolute cheek of the git to try and blame everything on nationalist’s, just shows his mancky character.
How these people sleep at night is beyond belief.
He could be a socio/psychopath. Watch him as he very calmly lies on C4 national tv news, no stress shows whatsoever.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy#Measurement
Psychopathy (/sa??k?p??i/), also known as—though sometimes distinguished from—sociopathy (/so?si??p??i/), is traditionally defined as a personality disorder characterized by enduring antisocial behavior, diminished empathy and remorse, and disinhibited or bold behavior.
Otto Kernberg, from a particular psychoanalytic perspective, believed psychopathy should be considered as part of a spectrum of pathological narcissism, that would range from narcissistic personality on the low end, malignant narcissism in the middle, and psychopathy at the high end.[14] However, narcissism is generally seen as only one possible aspect of psychopathy as broadly defined.
Facet 1: Interpersonal
Glibness/superficial charm
Grandiose sense of self-worth
Pathological lying
Cunning/manipulative
Facet 2: Affective
Lack of remorse or guilt
Emotionally shallow
Callous/lack of empathy
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
Dont have nightmares. Westminster’s probably the best place for him, protected by highly paid shills of the awful beeb.
@Morgatron Is Willie Rennie a glove puppet?
No but he sounds like hes got a hand up his arse!
Davy,
The sweat out your arse cheeks will taste better and be easier to swallow that any promises they can dream up to fool old biddies in the next indyref. That Andrew Neil lookalike Archie McPherson had a fucking cheek spreading his lies last year.
Can I start a crowd fund to have Alistair Carmichael chained to a metal pole alongside Gordon Brown and burnt alive at the fucking stake?
Stephen.
Peter,
Wee Willie Winkie used to have Cyril Smith’s hand up his arse when he was 12, while getting his wee baldy 3 incher played with. That’s why he’s so fucked in the head.
Stephen.
They were never going to win this case, no matter how obviously and glaringly guilty he was. The contortions the judges put themselves through to indicate that he was a proven and admitted liar, and yet find him technically not guilty, was revealing.
If the complainants had won their case it would have set a hugely dangerous precedent. It might have led to civil bolshieness on a grand scale, with half the British electorate taking their MPs and councillors to court for all manner of transgressions such as theft, fraud, corruption and gross mendacity (political lying being conveniently exempted), even gross indecency in some cases.
Can’t be having that, can we?
Quinie frae Angus says:
9 December, 2015 at 1:06 pm
God, I absolutely LOVE Wings and all who sail in her. Rev Stu is an absolute Godsend. Not for nothing is he the Rev!
Why?
Because in the never-ending battle with No-voting bawbags on Facebook, they have – predictably – come up with the old “But Alex Salmond lied to the electorate too, about EU advice, remember?”
Luckily I was able to search the Wings search tool, and find this. Another forensic analysis of the truth by the Cybernat General.
Keep it handy folks – you’ll be needing it today. And tomorrow. And the next day.
http://wingsoverscotland.com/playing-tricks-on-memory/#more-71643
———————————————————-
Here is the thing that is annoying me the most
“[56] In our opinion it is a crucial part of the offence in terms of section 106 that the false statement must be “in relation to … personal character or conduct”. The restriction was no doubt imposed by Parliament for the reasons referred to by Thomas LJ in Woolas quoted above. Thus an example of what was perceived to be a lie was given in evidence by Tavish Scott MSP (namely the statement given by Alex Salmond that Scotland had legal advice about an independent Scotland’s membership of the European Union). In our view, that would not be caught by section 106, as it was not a statement in relation to personal character or conduct. It is of the essence of section 106 that it does not apply to lies in general: it applies only to lies in relation to the personal character or conduct of a candidate made before or during an election for the purpose of affecting that candidate’s return.”
http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-judgments/judgment?id=9452fba6-8980-69d2-b500-ff0000d74aa7
Why didn’t the QC for the petitioners counteract the evidence provided by Tavish Scott in regards to the “EU legal advice”?
Surely Tavish Scott lied as well or am I missing something here?
In other news I see Alistair Darling (Lord) is to join the board of the bank Morgan Stanley.
:/
Probably quite a few just got this email too. They did so well.
Hello
The ‘The People Versus Carmichael’ team just posted:
1 new Announcement:
The ‘The People Versus Carmichael’ team just posted:
1 new Announcement:
As you can imagine today Wednesday 9th, has been very hectic.
The case has been lost. It is a Pyrrhic victory for Alistair Carmichael without honour. It is the view of the petitioners that judicial review will not happen. At this stage further costs are not known.
We thank you all from the bottom of our hearts for trusting us and caring about truth and democracy.
We feel a bond of true people’s solidarity and support with all of you who have stood by us and are continuing to do so. Together we have all done something inspiring and unique.
Please keep sharing the fund link and telling everyone about this important story.
In other news I see Alistair Darling (Lord) is to join the board of the bank Morgan Stanley.
To be fair, he really earned it. Socialists for the rich.
Bet when Lord Darling of SLabour and Crash Gordon take their seats on the bank boards, they’ll all join these two horrific characters in a stirring rendition of
The people’s flag is deepest red,
It shrouded oft our martyred dead
And ere their limbs grew stiff and cold,
Their hearts’ blood dyed its every fold.
So raise the scarlet standard high,
Beneath its shade we’ll live and die,
Though cowards flinch and ("Tractor" - Ed)s sneer,
We’ll keep the red flag flying here
Then they’ll all have really good laugh, on expenses.
1 2 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDIuApfVxBg
@heedtracker
I predict ‘Brown and Darling’ will replace ‘Burke and Hare’ as the archetypal villainous duo of Scottish History.
Carmichael has in the past extolled on how proud he is that the Scottish justice system complies with the European Convention on Human Rights. I wonder what past rulings the ECHR have made on politicians lying during election campaigns to protect their character and secure election?
Chic McGregor says:
10 December, 2015 at 12:04 am
@heedtracker
I predict ‘Brown and Darling’ will replace ‘Burke and Hare’ as the archetypal villainous duo of Scottish History.
They have a lot of competition Chic. Also just depressed the shit out of myself listening to that youtube Red Flag. Darling, Brown etc did their worst to Scotland but its up to the people of Scotland from now on.
I have been a supporter of the independence campaign for 45 years. In that time I have experienced the highs and lows of the struggle to enlighten our fellow Scots. In recent years I have dared to hope that, despite the continued manipulation and corruption of the UK establishment including the press and broadcasters, the subjugation of my nation would ultimately end. I foolishly believed that, when a majority of Scots were exposed to the truth, independence would be inevitable. I realise that the battle with the gutter press and the disgusting BBC et al continues unabated but there are now enough alternative sources and word of mouth comment to make any thinking man or woman at least question the diet they are being fed. This presupposes that my fellow countrymen and women are able to distinguish fact from fiction.
When the cream of the Scottish judicial fraternity fail to act morally and responsibly on an issue of blatant lying for personal and political gain what hope is there that the rest of the population can discern right from wrong? A quite disgusting decision that will not be examined by the media and will simply submerge from sight in the cesspit that they frequent.
I despair for my country. What does it take for people to say ENOUGH! If I were younger I must confess I would leave. No doubt many of our youth feel the same and will go which is a tragedy. The rest of us have no alternative but to carry on the fight in the hope that we can convert enough of the inert and brainwashed to achieve our goal.
I still hope to see independence but the anger I feel also demands retribution from the liars, paedophiles, frauds and crooks who have blighted our life. Many are dead and gone but others including Gordon the Barbarian and Flipper still walk this earth and should pay for what they have done. The judiciary must also be held to account for today’s nonsense.
Elmac: I still hope to see independence
Eloquent, Elmac.
Hope this inspires: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-1o2
Carmichael says that he is not standing in 2020 election.
Believe that, if you like.
“Carmichael says that he is not standing in 2020 election.”
I surmised that in an earlier post – his reputation is tainted. His colleagues will have told him their support has its limits.
No voter gave him a mandate to plot against the First Minister. And his claim of an SNP plot is bollocks. Most voters in Orkney are No voters.
I don’t think he will stand in 2020. Plenty of time to ensure he is financially secure for the future, and little chance he would win if he did stand. Which he obviously knows.
But he has 5 years on good money and expenses. And to use the revolving door. Might even get a seat in HoL once the dust settles, maybe even before 2020. That might give his party a chance to retain the seat in that election, which would presumably interest them
I had the feeling it would come to this.The UK legal system is totally biased in favor of the elite’ and this man is threatening to sue for his legal costs.I ask you!