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Wings Over Scotland

Priorities ordered

Posted on November 25, 2014 by

Scottish Labour-style.


Good stuff. We’re just not sure that’s, y’know, the main reason for doing it.

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  1. 25 11 14 23:01

    Priorities ordered | FreeScotland

  2. 25 11 14 23:40

    Priorities ordered - Speymouth

  3. 02 11 15 06:17

    All The Things They Said | A Wilderness of Peace

208 to “Priorities ordered”

  1. Paula Rose says:

    How incredibly sad can things get?

  2. Big Al says:

    Labour…say anything do nothing…

  3. Natasha says:

    They seriously don’t get it, do they? Those whom the gods would destroy . . .

  4. Jim Mitchell says:

    I can just see Jim Murphy going for that idea!

  5. Albaman says:

    Over Ed’s dead body Katy?.

  6. Cadogan Enright says:

    Murphy saying Milliband could read his tax proposals and yer one above talking about getting rid of Trident even though we know head office wont let her – sounds part of a Strategy

    IE branch office telling London what to do – determined, tough speaking up for Scotland – in sure knowledge that the media will not expose the fraud.

    So – get writing letters to media used by NO voters

  7. jimnarlene says:

    Big Al says:
    25 November, 2014 at 10:07 pm
    Labour…say anything do nothing.


    Labour…say anything, do anything in the pursuit of power and deliver nothing but, misery for the masses and riches for themselves.

  8. Nana Smith says:

    Empty vessels make the most noise.

    Truly I am sick and tired of these pathetic liars.

  9. jules says:

    This is horrendous.

  10. mogabee says:

    Labour in earnest mode…boak.

  11. kennysmith1873 says:

    It does not surprise me 1 bit. Labour continuing to fudge the lines of what they stand for and who they are. Scottish Labour even with a Holyrood majority government they could not get rid of trident and it would take far more than that to claw back 20% of the SNP vote. I should be a Labour supporter because of my trade union links but behaviour like this repulses me. Strange thing is if we got Indy I would have voted for the labour for indepence strain but I think even they would distance themselves from this shower and rebranded the party. SNP are far from perfect and their tartan Tory history puts a lot of historical Labour voters off but for me they are the only part that chimes a chord and getting rid of trident chimes loud. I love that so many people on this blog will not be blinded by this sort of nonsense.

  12. Cadogan Enright says:

    @Nana Smith 10:29 pm BUT MSM makes it sound real – it is a real threat, even if contemptable

  13. Lollysmum says:

    SLAB expects…. voters to do their duty yet again.

    Saw this earlier on twitter & couldn’t believe they could stoop so low. Silly me

  14. Democracy Reborn says:

    “Increasing Council Tax could lose us another 20% of the vote to the SNP”

    “Charging tuition fees could lose us another 20% of the vote to the SNP”

    “Jim Murphy wants to retain Trident”

    “Scottish Labour CANNOT abolish Trident. Only UK Labour can. And they WON’T”

    “I’m Katy Clark and I believe in the tooth fairy. Vote for me”

  15. Sinky says:

    Sarah Smith and Jim Murphy love in on BBC2.

    Meanwhile interesting George Kerevan article on yes alliance

  16. mumsyhugs says:

    Thats a belter of an idea – so remind me why we havnae already got shot of Trident? Oh that’s right – that’s nae devolved to the SG. Maybe somebody should tell her since she has aspirations of holding high office! In the meantime we’ll just hang on to that 20% of voters thanks.

  17. Kenny says:

    Is this for real? Or a satirical mock-up?

    This is a genuine question.

    If it is real, it is the most pathetic thing I have ever seen.

  18. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Gutted to see this. Truly desperate stuff.

  19. Donald says:

    Sarah Boyack on Scotland Tonight with a Freudian slip when asked about devolving income tax she stated “I have reservations, I want to ensure that Scotland is not BETTER off”.

  20. Morag says:

    I presume Stu checked that she actually said it before he used the graphic. Opportunistic bitch, wouldn’t know a point of principle if it bit her on the bahookie.

  21. Cadogan Enright says:

    My home town of Derry has the word ‘Slabberer’ as a way of describing people who talk shite or worse – IE ‘He/shes talking slabber’ or is ‘slabbering’.

    How appropriate !!

    Pity the media represent this slabbering as mainstream thought – a lot of people are very influenced by MSM

  22. Simon Chadwick says:

    Kenny, click on the pic and it goes to an official-looking Twit, which I assumed was real?

  23. dougiekdy says:

    I’m stuck for words – this has to be a piss take, right? Right?

    Naw, it’s Labour…

  24. JayR says:

    Vile, but not that much of a surprise. It’s Labour in Scotland after all.

    Party motto : “Votes before principles…or lives”

  25. Cadogan Enright says:

    @Sinky 10:39 pm

    George Kerevan is totally right on yes alliance

  26. gillie says:

    Labour will say absolutely anything to get elected.

  27. fred blogger says:

    playing on SNP red line issues now, does them no credit @ all.
    luckily it is not the SNP et al’s only policy.
    what next slabs gonna become the party of indyscot?
    takes more than salad to make a BBQ.

  28. BrianW says:

    FACE PALM… (The whole party are clearly on the same hallucinogenic drugs.. )

    I can’t wait for the next poster…

    Abolishing welfare for the vulnerable would win back more Tories to Labour.

    Abolishing F.O.I would mean a 30% increase in my expenses claim..

  29. OMG the skelator talking about education and student fees the mans a fruit cake and as for the rest of them boyak and findlay trying to revive the deed carcus that party has became oh my heart bleeds now their in favour of not renewing trident and eliminating poverty and food banks boyak has done this job and that job ….a right wee local off to read my 2nd edition of The National..grrrrrrr murf accusing the Snp of duplicity ..they cannot hackit that the snp are doing so so well …too little…too late the lot of you bye bye labour ….labour goodbyeeeeeee

  30. Lollysmum says:

    The Yes movement are used to working without boundaries. Their approach is naive if they think they can stand as an MP without observing rules governing candidates. Not SNP rules but electoral rules.

    SNP has established boundaries & for good reason-its the party of Scot gov & anything which brings it into disrepute can affect Sottish parliament ability to govern.

    Not saying either is right or wrong but you have to be serious to give up a career to go to WM. Not my idea of fun.

    I’ll be surprised if they can achieve an agreement.

  31. BrianW says:

    How about a poster showing Jackie Baillie crying when Labour were cutting funding to the Vale of Leven Hospital when they were last in power.

    Or could she not bring herself to cry when it was her parties funding cuts that were once threatening services at the hospital.

    She can bring on the crocodile tears no bother, but her memory seems to have trouble now and then.

  32. JayR says:

    C’mon, we should all email the Smith Commission to point out all this press speculation on leaks and ask the Commission’s position on whether this undermines the integrity and spirit of the negotiations.

    The more of us that do that, the more chance we have to show up Labour…and that’s one of my main hobbies these days 😀

    Get emailing, I’m already fking sick of living in a Murphyocracy!

    if they’ve shut down that email address, just use their media enquiries email

    They listen to us, not the other way around

  33. heedtracker says:

    But Chairchoob Davidson said it would cost tens o thoosans o jobs wi seperashun, in that weird phoney jockenese accent that fools noone but proud Scot buts. Wish they’d make their minds up etc

    Hard core Herald Project Fear memorabilia here too.

  34. Lesley-Anne says:

    dougiekdy says:

    I’m stuck for words – this has to be a piss take, right? Right?

    Naw, it’s Labour…

    Well to be honest Dougie Labour ARE a piss take!

    If you actually want a party with REAL ideas look at any party, yes even the Lib Dems, and you have a party with ideas and principles. Look at Labour and you have, after you have composed yourself and picked yourself up off the floor, well you have the next great comedy show to hit London’s theatre district. 😛

  35. stonefree says:

    I’m truly sick of Katy Clark’s rubbish ,this is the great Left of Labour ,or so some say probably quoting Katy Clark..She’s is a Westminster MP,with her immediate agenda South of the Border like the rest 40 odd Labour chancers.
    She has done nothing for this area, I hope she get shown the door at the earliest opportunity
    And that on Scotland Tonight , cringe making. Findlay being the only one against Trident , Murphy’s reply? WTF was that

  36. De Valera says:

    Want to win over SNP voters Katy? Support Scottish independence! Run that one past Jim, if he thinks it will save his skin who knows? (Sorry couldn’t resist).

  37. Her next poster:

    “Supporting independence could win back 50% of SNP voters.”

    (I don’t think it would, but it could.)

  38. wee_monsieur says:

    Katy who?

  39. Lollysmum says:

    Thought we had some awful Labour MP’s in England but Scotland’s seem much worse somehow.

  40. JayR says:

    Labour Party in Scotland…”You twist and turn like a … twisty-turny thing.”

  41. keaton says:

    Why’s she even wasting her time? Illiterate street urchins in Mumbai know Kezia’s got this.

  42. grahamlive says:

    Surely even Labour folk can see how pathetic this is. I was speechless when I saw that.

  43. Taranaich says:

    The thing is, sentiments like this are perfectly natural when you consider your opponents to be racist, nationalist xenophobes. The SNP having less votes is a humanitarian effort in itself to them.

  44. Morag says:

    My God Simon, you’re right. It looks as if Katy is so pleased with herself she actually made and tweeted the graphic itself.


  45. caz-m says:

    Katy Clark is becoming a bit of regular on Wings.

    Remember her on STV Scotland Tonight a couple of weeks ago trying to blame Scotland if Labour lost the next election.

    “it could be Scotland that lets us down”.

    The only thing that “NO VOTIN” Katy Clark can see through her Red Tory spectacles is her Westminster salary going down the drain.

    Always remember that this woman walked into the voting booth on 18th Sept and put her Party and her salary before her Country.

  46. Cuilean says:

    She’s my MP but as only ‘over 60s retireland Largs voted NO’, I sincerely hope Ms Clark, (who clearly puts the labour Party before anything else), will be history on 7 May ’15. Ms Clark could not tell me how many members are in Labour’s Scotland branch, so she clearly does not have her finger on the pulse. Of course, Ms Clark’s been told by Ed not to disclose that kind of info. Ms Clark told me to write to the Labour party and ask THEM for membership numbers! Sorry, Katy, I thought you WERE the Labour party. My mistake.

  47. caz-m says:


    “The National” 3rd edition front page.

  48. Kenny says:

    You can tell the photo has been airbrushed. Is there anything about the Red Tory Party which is not false?

    She looks as if she is trying to be Cathy out of Wuthering Heights… maybe she sees Murphy as some sort of Heathcliff?!?

  49. stonefree says:

    She is my MP as well , trawl through what she has voted for ,and supported Hardly Anything Scottish , and serial user of the phrase “Socialism doesn’t stop at the Border”
    Check out how much she claim on expenses for her office!

  50. Alex Clark says:

    Oh my! How things can change in the blink of an eye.

    Michael Foot Labour leader 1980 – 1983

    Advocates of nuclear disarmament including Michael Foot argued that if Britain got rid of its arsenal, others would follow suit, and that this was a basis on which to build peace and co-operation.

    Neil Kinnock Labour leader 1983 – 1992

    Although Kinnock welcomed the recent treaty to scrap intermediate nuclear weapons, he repeated his call for full disarmament.

  51. Capella says:

    It’s probably true. Just not Labour policy. Clever sleight of hand.

    Heard tonight that Nicola Sturgeon supports TTIP. A 38 degrees petition says so. I had my name removed from their mail list because I believe they are a Labour front. This sort of move confirms it for me. I suggest everyone boycotts 38 degrees in future.

  52. Fireproofjim says:

    Moral bankruptcy for all to see.
    Say anything to get back into power.
    Won’t work this time – the people have woken up!

  53. keaton says:

    By the way, is Katy Clark Neil Findlay’s quasi-running mate? Her stuff keeps advertising him and vice versa.

  54. Alex Clark says:


    I suggest everyone boycotts 38 degrees in future.

    Agreed and already done. Let’s stop being taken for fools. Nothing wrong with being paranoid when they really are after you 🙂

  55. Proud Cybernat says:

    SNP bad…

  56. Neil Comfort says:

    The Facebook summary of this post had me on the floor:

    “SNP BAD! Oh yeah, and also world peace, I guess.”

  57. keaton says:

    Gah. Not Tasmina.

  58. msean says:

    Saw this earlier online,thought it was a fake,surely has to be.

  59. Famous15 says:

    Did I hear correctly Jim Murphy saying with a frog in his throat.” Iv’e been listening to mummies who only want to put food in their children’s tummies”

    Tell me he did not say this,please!

  60. Valerie says:

    It would be funny if we weren’t paying through the nose to support these cretinous brain farts.

    Not one original utterance to be had from this disparate group of losers.

  61. Tackety Beets says:

    Beware of 38 Deg
    I too had the NS stuff .
    I also had a tweet from John Finnie ( Former SNP ) which inc copy of letter from AS to DC , dated 17 Nov , basically asking to remove Scotland and Scottish NHS from TTIP
    I’m on I pad so techno useless .
    It should be viewable .
    If needed tweet Tackety Beets an Ill fire it over to you later .

  62. Valerie says:

    Just saw this graphic on Guy McV,he says it came from her Twitter account!!!

  63. Morag says:

    Not Tasmina? I’m as naturally distrustful of Tasmina’s antecedents as anyone, but having said that she spoke extremely well in Perth and has done on other occasions when I’ve heard her.

    Maybe it actually doesn’t matter what her motivation is so long as she does the job and does it well. She’s likely to get a winnable seat next year so we’ll see.

  64. Morag says:

    Valerie, as Simon pointed out, click on the graphic and it takes you to the tweet.

  65. Morag says:

    I don’t know why people use 38 degrees or for political petitions. That’s what the Holyrood (and Westminster) petition facilities are for. If you get a lot of signatures on an official petition they have to pay attention. Justice for Megrahi has been milking huge advantage from a Holyrood petition it set up in 2010. It’s regularly discussed in the Justice Committee.

    I wouldn’t blame them in the slightest if they ignored petitions set up on commercial sites when the facility provided for the purpose by the parliament itself is being ignored.

  66. Chic McGregor says:

    Putting the most charitable interpretation on it, she may have meant: “IF Labour supported removal of Trident then we would gain 20%”.

    But even if so, sadly, the premise will never be true and the conclusion wildly over optimistic.

  67. tombee says:

    You know, the more I hear about the politicians of the Labour Party, the more I become convinced that they are completely devoid of any semblance of decency.
    For Katy Clark to even contemplate trading a policy change, on something like weapons of mass destruction, to enhance a selfish ambition to win votes, is indicative of someone completely bereft of morality, dignity, or any sense of respect for the people she claims to want to represent.
    It demonstrates the worst kind of hypocrisy imaginable. Especially when she had the opportunity to rid our country of nuclear weapons on moral grounds. All this woman had to do was vote YES and persuade her ‘followers’ to do the same.
    Independence would have provided that result.
    How on earth could such a woman achieve the office of Deputy First Minister in the Scottish Parliament?.

  68. yesindyref2 says:

    She goes with just a 2.2% overall SNP lead, about 10th on the list of Labour seats to go, so she knows she’s vulnerable.

    But to be so blatant about a policy being all about trying to take back votes from the SNP is sordid, and shouldn’t be what politics should be about, it should be about principles.

    I now won’t be sad to see the back of her as my MP.

  69. Tackety Beets says:

    @ tombee

    Agreed , well said .

    I have said before JoLa looked very uncomfortable pre Sept 18 th , so much so , I often felt she wanted to Vote Yes but was stuck between a rock and a hard place .
    Nae guts ! Nae principles etc etc

  70. Macart says:

    FFS they’re insane, completely Tonto.

    The very fact this poster had to be created, cleared and approved before use speaks volumes as to group mindset.

    Career first, party next and party before people always. Utterly and hopelessly lost. They so need to be shown the door.

  71. caz-m says:

    keaton 12.18am
    “Gah. Not Tasmina.”

    Is Tasmina not your cup of tea? I understand where you are coming from but I have to agree with Morag, I think she will get the offer of a seat for the 2015 GE.

  72. Morag says:

    She was expected to get the third Euro seat so it’s hard to see how she won’t be standing in a very winnable constituency next year.

    I do feel very ambivalent about her political background. It’s very easy to portray her as a complete opportunist trading on her box-ticking potential to secure a political career, and coming belatedly to the SNP once she realised it was the party that was going places.

    On the other hand maybe that doesn’t actually matter, even if it’s true. If she does the job and does it well, her motivation can be between her and her conscience. As I said, she’s very personable and she speaks extremely well or certainly has done when I’ve heard her.

  73. Alex Clark says:

    Suggestion to Ms Clark.

    Maybe if you adopt ALL the SNP policies you might, just might, mind win ALL the SNP vote?

    Don’t think so though, most who will vote SNP at the GE next year, especially Ex-Labour voters know you are liars and will say anything to get a vote or two.

    Yer teas oot! Start looking for a new job now and take Jim Murphy with you.

  74. Chic McGregor says:

    OT Interesting link from a commenter over on NNS.

  75. Fat boab says:

    @Capella, @Alex Clark, @Morag

    On the subject of 38degrees and their latest slander of the FM.

    I am in full agreement as to their duplicity and untrustworthiness (I got my name removed from their list a while back over the G Brown hijack fiasco). Anyway, just had a thought (which might even be described as a “cunning plan”):
    What do you say we start up a “Boycott 38degrees” petition on 38degrees? That could be a runner, surely. Any takers?
    (P.S. Morag, not sure I agree with you about “”: I think they’re still doing a not bad job, but I’m open to being persuaded otherwise.)

  76. K1 says:

    Chic, So that’s what a real news report looks like; factual reporting about what took place in reality after the vote and the consequences that are underway because of the total lying hypocrites who procured a ‘false’ outcome.

    You’d never get that straightforward analysis from our MSM, ever!

    Thanks for the link, will spread far and wide. 🙂

  77. Michael McCabe says:

    Let’s just abolish labour and set Scotland free. Aye till I die

  78. Piemonteis says:

    @ Sinky & Cadogan

    Thanks for the link to the Kerevan article.

    This part was particularly interesting:
    [Sturgeon & Robertson] have been busy on the phone trying to reassure potential independent Yes candidates they can identify themselves as non-members on the ballot paper.”

    That takes away much of the barrier I perceived at first with the SNP’s proposal. It means you could have:
    Elaine C. Smith: Women 4 Indy – SNP

    The SNP seem much more open about it than I thought at first. In that case, how about double candidatures? Why not have, for example:
    Lesley Riddoch: SNP – Green

    That kind of arrangement is much more likely to benefit both the candidate him/herself (less shoehorned in to SNP policy), the SNP (better candidate, hence better chance of taking the seat, and SNP still on ballot paper). The fact that it benefits the Greens would almost be a by-product, as they play the role of quasi-negotiator, obviously benefitting through parliamentary representation in the end.

    Surely such an approach would encourage more “independent” figures to stand.

  79. Kenny says:

    To be fair to poor Katy, it does seem to be the way of the Branch Office in this round of appointments. Murphy said earlier “I don’t care if you’re “left or right, Old Labour or New Labour. The only thing I won’t tolerate is losing Labour.” Policy is a secondary concern for these people and they’re not even ashamed to admit it. The ONLY thing that matters is power. Isn’t there someone, ANYONE, in the MSM who will push the evil soulless lying scumbag on this kind of thing? Or question Neil Findlay on what the Branch Office policy actually IS on Trident? Or ask why if they believe in solidarity across borders, why they won’t support it within workplaces and make it illegal to sack someone for crossing a picket line? Or ask why, if it’s so bad that the SNP has never used the tax-raising powers of the Scottish Parliament, why did none of the Labour FMs ever try it either?

    Personally, I’d like someone to take Murphy to task on his dog-whistle “you know what team I support” football chat too, but then what’s the point of a dog-whistle if the Orangemen can hear it too.

  80. Chitterinlicht says:

    Its like when a 4 year old kid has done wrong and will say absolutely anything not to get a row. Pathetic.

  81. ScottieDog says:

    Labour in its desperate love if power have turned into a political GOLLUM.

  82. Davy says:

    Their are no depths a labour MP will not crawl down to for a vote, and if anyone believe’s that display by Jackie Ballie yesterday yer a numpty.

  83. caz-m says:

    The Evening Times:

    Glasgow is ‘crucial’ to Labour revival,

    WINNING back voters in Glasgow is vital if the Labour Party is to be successful in the Scottish Parliament, says leadership contender Jim Murphy.

  84. RMAC says:

    O/T sort of. Looking at the whole 38 Degrees/Gordo thing I think this might actually have been his petition from the word go. He must have been aware that his “Vow” was impossible to deliver so had this started by one of the parties publicity arms. No one ever came forward to complain after he hijacked it, possibly because he didn’t. Whatever else he is he isn’t completely stupid and the fallout from the vow could easily be anticipated so its not that much of a stretch to consider the possibility that this was his petition and that 38 Degrees are nothing more than a spin department for Labour’s policies.

  85. Haggis Hunter says:

    Well, she winnae be deputy now, London and the BBC will deselect her

  86. SquareHaggis says:


  87. Haggis Hunter says:

    It seems obvious she does not realise the seriousness of her statement. Will the CIA or MFI send in a cleaner to sort this out?
    Only Independence will get these weapons of non selective mass murder off Scotland’s soil

  88. caz-m says:

    Just think of the lies that the Scottish Labour Party have
    told to the people of Scotland in the past and the majority of voters were taken in by them.

    Suddenly, within a very short period of time, the penny has dropped and Scottish Labour are now an irrelevance in Scotland.

    People like Jim Murphy and Katy Clark are seen as self serving, career politicians who only have eyes for their “Holy Grail”, the House of Lords. From union rep, to Lord Hee Haw, that is the ideal career path of your typical Labour lackey.

    We have the power to bin these Unionist MPs in the May 2015 GE.

    Followed up by the 2016 Holyrood elections, then an all out attack in 2017 on Labour led councils all over Scotland.

  89. galamcennalath says:

    The problem is, they are right.

    It is an established and indisputable fact that if you make promises to the Scottish people, which you know you can’t or won’t fulfil, a good chunk of voters will be duped by it.

    SLab can promise everything and anything, yet have the authority to deliver very little. If Miiliband made it an election promise, then it might genuine. If a powerless local branch official says it policy, then they are acting well beyond their pay grade!

  90. Desimond says:

    I thought her name was Katy Ford in that hashtag.

    As for Tasmina talk…no no no. The personification of a ‘be anything’ wannabe. From Tory to Labour to SNP..what next SSP if they promise her 1st on the list?

  91. AuldA says:

    Judging from the comments to the tweet, this was an epitome of how to shoot yourself in the foot. Well deserved.

    Please Katy Clark tweet again so that Labour lose another 20% votes to the SNP! 🙂

  92. HandandShrimp says:

    I would agree with Morag on Tasmina. She is far more coherent and lucid than many that Labour put forward for TV discussions. Yes, she has had a political journey and she may move on in the future but then so may many Tory MPs in England. Politics is fluid, Churchill crossed the House a couple of times. I think parties can be too precious about this sort of thing. She put a good shift in for the Euro elections and came within a whisker of the seat. Instead we have a comic cuts loon representing Scotland which I hope even those who ticked that box see as a mistake now.

    On the National, I bought mine in Central Station this morning, the four people in front of me all buying it too.

    I sometimes wonder how we lost this vote. I don’t meet many people owning up to voting No.

  93. Luigi says:

    Supporting independence could win back 40% of the SNP vote.


  94. Naina Tal says:

    Re Katy…….
    Ocht She wis just saying………

  95. Will Podmore says:

    HandandShrimp still doesn’t get it. Separatists lost because most Scots voted for unity and progress, rather than separation and reaction. And the support for Wings itself seems to be diminishing – there are far fewer responses to all the articles than there were just a month or so ago. In the 1960s, SNP membership soared, then disappeared. The same is happening now.

  96. Davy says:

    Regarding “38 degree’s” their was no mention of gordon brown when I signed their bloody petition, or I would not have touched it, fooled once not again.

    I was lucky enough to meet Tasmina in Keith and took her picture with our local SNP counciller Gary Coull for the EU elections, I was very impressed with her and reckon she is a valuable asset to Scotland, her and Gary would both make excellent MP/MSP’s for our country and are talent that should not be wasted.

  97. HandandShrimp says:

    If that makes you feel more complacent Will I can’t say I am too troubled by you believing it.

  98. gerry parker says:

    To create a Holyrood petition, go here.

    Getting a National easily enough in Whifflet.
    Lots of Daily Records remaining unsold though.


  99. Ken500 says:

    Baillie ‘greeting’ about Labour/Unionist hospital failure.
    Another 1/2Billion spent on nuclear weapons in Scotland.

    What respect?

  100. Stoker says:

    HandandShrimp says:
    “I sometimes wonder how we lost this vote. I don’t meet many people owning up to voting No.”

    And you probably will not.
    I often wonder if the Unionist portrayal of us as “nasty nazi'” was so overwhelming it really did scare the utter cr@p out of enough people to make a difference.

    I also believe there were many of these people going around claiming to be voting Yes when they had no intention of doing so – anything for an easy life type of thinking.

    Either that or it was out of fear and/or cowardice, possibly a mixture of both. Think about it, how many people like admitting to being frightened.

    Anyway, i still have very strong reservations about the result.
    I also feel that at some point in the future some form of evidence or revelation will come to light, but of course it will be far too late.

    I find it very strange that the electoral commission has been warning for years that there are MILLIONS of errors on the electoral registers but it is decided to wait until AFTER the referendum before changes are introduced to the Scottish registers.

    I must confess to not knowing enough about the electoral register situation but the electoral commission were warning of something in the region of 13 MILLION errors on the registers by the time our referendum came around.

    Add to that the fact our referendum produced an unprecedented astronomical record number of postal votes and things start to look very iffy – well they do to me.

    Who knows?

  101. Dan Huil says:

    Daily Record believes her.

    OT Just got an unasked-for copy of Daily Mail through my letter box. Are they desperately trying to up their circulation as well?

  102. allan thomson says:

    What does HQ say?

  103. ClanDonald says:

    “In the 1960s SNP membership soared then disappeared. The same is happening now.”

    Nah, this is how it goes “In the 1980s Tory support plummeted then disappeared forever. The same is happening to Labour now.”

    There, fixed that for you.

    Doesn’t matter who it is, Labour or Tory, if you betray Scotland you will never be forgiven. Even if Labour came out in support of independence I still wouldn’t go back.

  104. Haggis Hunter says:

    Well said Clan Donald.
    I was wondering what Will Podmore was on about. Yes the SNP has its ups and downs, but the trend is always on the up towards Independence. With the LabServative arrogance, espcially over Trident and Oil revenues, is it any wonder they have dug their hole

  105. TD says:

    Will Podmore

    “…the support for Wings itself seems to be diminishing – there are far fewer responses to all the articles than there were just a month or so ago.”

    Does your ignorance know no bounds? Of course the level of activity on sites like Wings could not be maintained at the levels found around the time of the referendum. People have lives to live and don’t all have the time to comment as much as they might like. But you cannot rationally conclude from that that the level of support is diminishing. I for one do not comment as much as I used to, but my committment to independence is just as strong as it ever was and I read Wings and other pro-independence sites every day.

    During the campaign, people were meeting, marching, demonstrating, tweeting, flying flags all in a very visible way. That level of activity has reduced, but the polls show that support for independence has increased since the referendum.

    Why don’t you try thinking before making such ill-informed comments?

  106. Luigi says:

    Will Podmore says:

    26 November, 2014 at 9:21 am

    HandandShrimp still doesn’t get it. Separatists lost because most Scots voted for unity and progress, rather than separation and reaction. And the support for Wings itself seems to be diminishing – there are far fewer responses to all the articles than there were just a month or so ago. In the 1960s, SNP membership soared, then disappeared. The same is happening now.

    You wish!

  107. Luigi says:

    Dan Huil says:

    26 November, 2014 at 10:12 am

    Daily Record believes her.

    OT Just got an unasked-for copy of Daily Mail through my letter box. Are they desperately trying to up their circulation as well?

    Send it back to the Daily Mail in an unstamped envelope.

  108. galamcennalath says:

    Luigi says:
    “Supporting independence could win back 40% of the SNP vote. Interested?”

    Don’t tempt them! No lie would be too big for them! 🙂

  109. Valerie says:

    How odd Will Podmore, you are stuck in a time warp. You haven’t heard about our new FMs tour, and how it sold out in 24 hours?
    Unprecedented scenes for a party in this land, and membership still growing.

  110. gillie says:

    “Adopting SNP policies will win back 100% of the SNP vote.”

    Someone should send Katy Clark a SNP membership form.

  111. Valerie says:

    And yes, we are told of the ‘progress’ we are making on a daily basis, @Will. It’s shit being us just now, but we are preparing.

  112. Marcia says:

    The SNP membership in the late 60’s was large but at the same time chaotic. Membership was done at the local level and maintained locally with branches expected to remit monies to HQ for branch dues. Many branches did not pay their dues on time and if the membership secretary left or was useless then the income to the branch and HQ suffered. Many branches were either hyper-active or moribund depending on the personalities in that local branch.

    Thankfully that nice Mr Swinney when he was leader swept all that away and we have the present system that actually works. When the present system commenced SNP membership was about 8,000 and has been increasing since 2004.

  113. chalks says:

    Will Podmore, nearly 95,000 members, yes the SNP is clearly diminishing.


  114. Lenny Hartley says:


    Lesley Riddoch ruled out standing as MP on Saturday at Ric.

    Podmore, cmon folk stop feeding the troll.

  115. Luigi says:

    Unfortunately, the one and only true conviction that these Red Tories seem to have is the defence of the union. Oh Boy, did they put their reputations and their party’s future on the line for that one in 2014?

    For Queen and “Country”, Eh Katy?

  116. Ananurhing says:

    Podmore. Far fewer comments, but we’re still here.

    Make no mistake, this movement is a juggernaut, and from what I see on the Beeb’s nightly Slab PPBs, there’s barely an obstacle in our way.

  117. desimond says:


    tasmina…I for one just cant find it in me to trust anyone who has so many epiphany moments. Most if not all of us here believe in core values and have always held those core values. Tasmina’s core values seem to easily change depending on the political wind.

    Just seems to be another Westminster style drone\clone to me but Im happy to be proved wrong but for now my sceptic wall remains high.

  118. Luigi says:

    Marcia says:

    Thankfully that nice Mr Swinney when he was leader swept all that away and we have the present system that actually works. When the present system commenced SNP membership was about 8,000 and has been increasing since 2004.

    John Swinney is, and should be remembered as, one of the truly great, unsung heroes of the Scottish independence movement. I’m not even a member, but I can see that this guy has made everything achieved to date possible. As Alex Salmond said recently on Swinney’s financial management from 2007 onwards (paraphrased): “Merlin did his magic”.

  119. Oneironaut says:

    And it’s things like this that have utterly destroyed any respect I may once have had for Katy Clark.

    Can’t really say I’ll be sad to watch her sink with the Labour ship she chose to stay on when other Labour MPs chose to stick to their principles and abandoned this party that’s now well and truly corrupted beyond all hope of redemption.

  120. Papadox says:

    Not only is SLAB a fraudulent misnomer, an awful lot of their MPs and MSP’s are fifth columnists. They have decieved SOTLANDS people for the past 30/40 years for 30 pieces of silver to their own selfish ends.

    They should be disbanded, obviously they suite the establishments requirements hence the EBC MSM are encouraged to give them false credence and the appearance of respectability.

    A total confidence trick to give the appearance of democracy.

  121. joe kane says:

    Blood boiling time.
    Make sure to take your blood pressure pills before reading any of the case studies. They’re examples of state barbarism in action.

    Fairness, Equality, Responsiveness
    Citizens Advice Scotland Submission to The Smith Commission

    Don’t forget that the bleeding heart liberals of last Labour Government sanctioned over 100,000 victims the year before leaving office. It was they who introduced sanctions for single parent families and disabled people. It was bleeding heart liberals in the Labour Government who off the whole phoney neoliberal propaganda attack on poor people that there was a huge element of fraud involved in people claiming benefits (remember Labour’s “Benefit Thieves” campaign anyone?)

  122. Nana Smith says:

    Huge police investigation launched into House of Lords expenses ‘fraud’ scandal

    I’m hoping the abuse scandal enquiry starts soon. Is there anything worthy in the HOL, anything at all??

  123. gerry parker says:


    And don’t forget Dundee YES event on Sunday.

    Looking forward to that.


  124. Luigi says:

    I’m prepared to give Tasmina the benefit of the doubt. She does seem to be a bit if a wannabe politician (hopefully not in the Jim Murphy category!), but is obviously very intelligent, eloquent and seems to tick other useful boxes (to reach those parts of the electorate…).

    I’d rather have an ex-tory than a red tory.

  125. Luigi says:

    Nana Smith says:

    26 November, 2014 at 10:55 am

    Huge police investigation launched into House of Lords expenses ‘fraud’ scandal

    Apparently, some of the buggers have been caught clocking in, staying a few minutes and then disappearing, just to collect the 300 quid.

  126. galamcennalath says:

    Will Podmore says:
    “HandandShrimp still doesn’t get it. Separatists lost because most Scots voted for unity and progress, rather than separation and reaction. And the support for Wings itself seems to be diminishing – there are far fewer responses to all the articles than there were just a month or so ago. In the 1960s, SNP membership soared, then disappeared. The same is happening now.”

    … translating into the reality of Scotland, Planet Earth, 21stC …

    “HandandShrimp has a clear grasp of the facts. The pro democracy faction lost because most Scots voted through fear or for improbable promises, rather than self determination and progress. And the support for Wings itself seems to be stable at June/July levels – there are obviously fewer responses to all the articles than at the peak of campaigning. SNP membership has fluctated over its 80 year history, but is currently at an astonishly high level.”

    Took the troll bait, like 8 others before me. Damn, but hey, it’s a wet Wednesday and quiet on the news front!

  127. Stoker says:

    Dan Huil says:
    26 November, 2014 at 10:12 am
    “OT Just got an unasked-for copy of Daily Mail through my letter box. Are they desperately trying to up their circulation as well?”


    (1)-Have you been putting pro Independence material through doors,
    Dan? If so, i think this may be one of your neighbours hitting back.

    (2)-If not, it could be that some Unionists have picked up on this buy, read and pass it on tactic.

    (3)-Or sales are that bad and the appearance of The National has given them a severe dose of the skitters they are having to give it away to try and promote it. And since nobody in their right mind would be seen dead buying one they have to resort to putting them through doors.

    You must live in a tory seat!

  128. Morag says:

    Fat Boab, I wasn’t particularly criticising or even 38 degrees. I was pointing out that the Scottish parliament has set up its own dedicated online petition facility for people to petition it directly.

    If people choose to ignore that facility, the “proper channel” if you like, and use a third-party site instead, why would the parliament pay any attention? I honestly don’t know why people do this. I’d sign a proper Holyrood petition in a heartbeat but I’m not faffing around with toothless third-party sites.

  129. Lollysmum says:

    Don’t feed the troll 🙂

  130. galamcennalath says:

    Lollysmum says:
    “Don’t feed the troll”

    Lugs weel beltit 🙂

  131. Graeme Doig says:

    Has Wull got a day off or is he at it work again? (no food, Just asking) 🙂

  132. ronnie anderson says:

    @ gerry parker I managed to get hold of a Airdrie Coatbride Advertizer at the weekend ,read your letter as I said before I would be suprised if they print Anti Lab letters,but what do I know,more power to your pen.

  133. Morag says:

    Where’s the pile-on against the people expressing reasonable doubts about Tasmina’s suitability to be an SNP candidate? Just asking….

    *whistles nonchalantly*

  134. chalks says:

    Tasmina is a partner at a law firm, has 4 kids as well….so I don’t think she is undertaking a career in politics for ££££ nor for power….doing quite well without the hassle, if she wants to get involved then fair play, doesn’t strike me as a career politician, not like some others I can think of….

    She may well have been at other parties, I assume we also cast doubt on the many new ex labour members now in the SNP?

    Thought not.

  135. Morag says:

    She did stand as a Conservative candidate in 1999 so I can understand why some people feel uncomfortable about that. Her former colleagues have also put the boot in about opportunism and personal ambition and lack of independent thought, but then they would say that wouldn’t they.

    Her cupboard seems clear of other skeletons and she seems to be doing a good job so I’m becoming inclined to cut her a bit of slack.

  136. gerry parker says:

    @ Ronnie.
    Aye, it was a lucky break Ronnie. That’s two I’ve had published recently.
    After the Smith commission reports I’ll get another one on the go.

    Need to educate the Airdrie and Coatbridge Labour voters a wee bit at a time till May.

  137. Valerie says:

    @Luigi & Marcia, I totally agree about John Swinney, I have a bit of a crush!

    As Alex said, the only man in Europe to bring a budget in, in the black. The guy is a Scottish hero for his budgetary skills alone.

    I suspect the council tax freeze was his idea. It’s something constantly attacked, and SNP ignore the jibes, because it works on a number of levels.

  138. cearc says:

    Morag @11.20,

    Glad to see you’re feeling better!

  139. Jim Mitchell says:

    Katy Clark: principle, what’s a principle? We don’t do them in the Labour party!

  140. HandandShrimp says:

    Not feeding the troll but I wonder how Will views the Labour Party membership. Perhaps, as some have argued on the Guardian, Will views falling membership as a good thing and that the rise of the SNP, Green and SSP membership a bad thing…perhaps taking the Oscar Wilde view that “hell is other people”.


  141. chalks says:

    Well, she is on our side now.

    I can think of a few career politicians in the SNP, unfortunately every party has them, but they don’t have 4 kids and nor have they worked their arse off to attain partner status in a law firm….they tend to have degrees in politics, or don’t bother finishing uni and instead go straight into working as a Parliamentary Assistant/Office Manager with an MSP/MP or become Councillors.

    I’d also add that the fact Tasmina has for instance, batted for the other side, may make her ideal to stand in certain constituencies, where there is a strong middle income population…they see ‘partner in a law firm’ and start cooing

    Having children can change peoples thoughts, as you are, I am prepared to give her the benefit of the doubt.

  142. Clootie says:

    Labour have a cunning plan in true blackadder style.

    The are going to “promise change that they can’t deliver”, “Adopt any policy that seems popular” – All in words only i.e. Vow format. Why not it worked last time.

    They will then sit back and shout “SNP bad” for 16 weeks and then celebrate the return of all the current Scottish Labour MP’s to Westminster.

    …what could possibly go wrong? 😛

  143. Roll_On_2014 says:

    Will Podmore:

    I think you are on the wrong site you should be here.

    The front page has the following articles:


    David Gow……………. 0
    Sarah Boyack………… 0
    Jim Murphy…………… 1
    Katy Clark…………….. 1
    Gordon Matheson……. 2
    Neil Findlay…………… 0
    Mike Robb…………….. 0

    Disclaimer: Please be careful with the tumbleweed blowing across the site.

    As you leave this site please would you take my old grannies advice:

    Dinnae let the door skelp yir erse on yir wey oot!”

  144. Andrew Morton says:

    What’s next?

    “If we adopt a right wing, anti immigrant stance we can win back 50% of the UKIP vote.”

  145. HandandShrimp says:

    Does anybody know when the Smith Commssion draft is coming out. I take it they aren’t posting it on the 30th, it being a Sunday.

    Is it this Friday?

  146. Jack Murphy says:

    TODAY:FM Nicola Sturgeon will outline her government’s policies for 2014-15 at 2.40pm approximately in the Scottish Parliament Chamber.
    Scottish Parliament link.

  147. jackie g says:

    Neil Findlay’s pledge to Scotland this morning.

    Scottish Labour leadership candidate Neil Findlay aims to build 50,000 new social houses and end youth unemployment.

    Bloody genius is he no.
    why did we no think of that, oh wait a minute we did and if he along with his Slab partners had voted for independance then we might have been able to do just that eh Neil.

  148. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Stoker at 10.10

    I agree. If anybody here can explain how in five local government areas of Scotland the Postal Ballot achieved 97% take up I’ll believe the result.

    I’m pretty pissed off by the attacks on Tasmina. Virtually every SNP supporter has come from somewhere else politically. We are a conversion operation (and since when were Tories not allowed to support independence. If more of them had we’d have certainly won and the one major criticism of the YES campaign I will make is that we didn’t pay any attention to this factor during the campaign)

  149. Macart says:

    @Jack Murphy

    And by 3pm they will all have been attacked by Labour as pure dead bad ideas or adopted as long standing Labour policy by tomorrow’s first press.

    Spooky, but true.

  150. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Far be it for me to suggest mischief but the Labour Hame site has a particularly interesting offer. It states

    “Join Labour for as little as £5 before the 1st December and you can vote in the leadership contest”

    Desperation or what?
    I think Sarah gets my vote and that of my hamster Sammy.

  151. Kevin Evans says:

    Am much rather of heard them saying they’ll scrap trident because it’s morally wrong and a waste of money. But it’s interesting to notice that labour policy is not designed for the benefit of the people of Scotland but only to attack the snp.


  152. Helena Brown says:

    I would say that nobody who wanted a career in politics made a bee line for the SNP at any time. I used to say to those who spoke in a derogatory manner about our previous First Minister that if he had been as they loved to describe him, wanting to be a Dictator etc, he might as well have joined the Labour Party or indeed the Tories, he certainly would have made Prime Minister. So yes we welcome all of those who have had a “Paul of Tarsus moment” Tasmina should be given a chance, I voted for her in the selection for the European Election, she did not win, but hey why not.

  153. Stoker says:

    Nana Smith says:
    26 November, 2014 at 10:55 am
    Huge police investigation launched into House of Lords expenses ‘fraud’ scandal

    I’m hoping the abuse scandal enquiry starts soon. Is there anything worthy in the HOL, anything at all??

    Thanks for that, Nana Smith.

    Bit bloody rich Labour & LieDems playing the Holy Willie card. They’re just as guilty.

    Had we voted for Independence that festering medieval parasitical cesspit would now be irrelevant and consigned to the history books.

    Never mind revamping the HoL, demolish it with all of them in it.

  154. Mac an sealgair says:

    By getting rid of Trident they can take 20% of the SNP vote???
    If the SNP cant get rid of Trident how do Scottish Labour propose to do it? The only ones who could do that would be their Westminster masters, providing they were to win the GE in May, who have absolutely no intention of doing any such thing.
    Given that, then they are offering nothing new, or realistic, as the SNP have already made it abundantly clear how they stand on the issue and demonstrated their resolve to see it through, unlike the Tridend worshipping prospective leader Murphy. So why would anyone be tempted to change their vote based on another worthless piece of spon.
    Does this not sound like the empty Labour leadership in London who have, in absence of any policies of their own, adopted the very same policies of the Tory party!
    A look at the current popularity and trust levels of SL and any of their hopeful new leaders compared to Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP, who in their right mind would propose to steal SNP policies in the hope of stealing their votes along with them.

  155. Valerie says:

    Disgusting as it is, the HoL scandal just made me shrug, it is such a long festering sore.

    The world’s most expensive old people’s day care centre. The ones that do sit just fall asleep, a quick sweep of the camera reveals.

  156. Mac an sealgair says:

    By getting rid of Trident they can take 20% of the SNP vote???
    If the SNP cant get rid of Trident how do Scottish Labour propose to do it? The only ones who could do that thanks to their Lab/Tory coalition No vote, would be their Westminster masters, providing they were to win the GE in May, who have absolutely no intention of doing any such thing.
    Given that, then they are offering nothing new, or realistic, as the SNP have already made it abundantly clear how they stand on the issue and demonstrated their resolve to see it through, unlike the Tridend worshipping prospective leader Murphy and not forgetting their very recent attitude towards it, Jackie Baillie et al, during the referendum campaign. So why would anyone be tempted to change their vote based on another worthless piece of spin.
    Does this not sound like the empty Labour leadership in London who have, in absence of any policies of their own, adopted the very same policies of the Tory party!
    A look at the current popularity and trust levels of SL and any of their hopeful new leaders compared to Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP, who in their right mind would propose to steal SNP policies in the hope of stealing their votes along with them.
    A party of brain dead dinosaurs heading for extinction.

  157. ronnie anderson says:

    Neil Findlay,s gonna build 50,000 Social Houses,hows he gonna fit that in wie his parliamentary duties,sorted,he,s not elected. I’ll buy yer trowel Neil.

  158. HandandShrimp says:

    To be fair to Katy I think she would have ditched Trident ages ago. The message she is sending maybe more aimed at the Labour leadership than us or the SNP membership.

    Katy is very much to the left of the current Labour MPs and Jim to the right. It will be interesting if the Labour membership put the two together. I’m guessing that Jim will want Kezia but who knows.

  159. Karmanaut says:

    @Stoker 10:10 am says:

    “I often wonder if the Unionist portrayal of us as “nasty nazi’” was so overwhelming it really did scare the utter cr@p out of enough people to make a difference.”

    I think you’re spot on. I know someone who voted No because they thought Yes voters were hard right extremists. Only found out afterwards. It still boggles my mind that someone could come to that conclusion, when you had *everyone* on the left in favour of independence and people like the BNP and National Front in favour of the union.

    Crazy. But that’s the power of the press.

    I hate the title of “The National” newspaper because it’s going to be too easy for the anti-democracy Britnat MSM to twist the word “National” in their propaganda, as they do with the SNP. They should have called the paper “The Caledonian” or something like that.

  160. Ali says:

    In fife We had a local councillor elected on the ticket “I think we should have more Labour councillors”. That was his ENTIRE election ‘pledge’ versus a contender who had a list of reasonable local issues she wished to address as a councillor. It’s no wonder they think getting Labour elected is the one and only priority. It’s been reinforced for decades

  161. Jack Murphy says:

    HandandShrimp @12:45pm:
    “Katy is very much to the left of the current Labour MPs and Jim to the right.”
    In Labour Party terms yes Katy is,but in today’s British Labour Party Bubble that’s not by any stretch of the imagination ‘left wing’.
    Murphy is where most of the British Labour Party is–centre right.
    He’s a Blairite and always has been.

  162. stonefree says:

    HandandShrimp @12:45pm:
    “Katy is very much to the left of the current Labour MPs and Jim to the right.”

    I disagree with Clark being anything like Left Wing, and Murphy is purely Right , Just my opinion

  163. Stoker says:

    @ Karmanaut,

    Thanks for that, but i slightly disagree with you on the naming of the paper.

    As soon as i seen it i thought along similar lines to you but then soon realised it could be a very clever marketing ploy.

    Think about it, Scotland has a huge affinity with horses and especially horse racing.

    What’s one of the biggest dates on the Scottish horse racing calendar? – the Scottish National. I know the paper doesn’t, as yet, have a racing section, but i’m sure, given time, they will have. If they want to be successful they will have to, IMO.

    Yes, i agree, they could have picked a better name but i’m trying to keep upbeat and positive about it.

  164. Robert Peffers says:

    Ali says: 26 November, 2014 at 12:57 pm:

    “In fife We had a local councillor elected on the ticket “I think we should have more Labour councillors”. That was his ENTIRE election ‘pledge’ …”

    Aye!Ali, but in Fife it’s really a wee bit different from the rest of Scotland. Which is why the Fife electorate voted to send a total numptie like Alex Rowley to Holyrood as their MSP. A more totally obnoxious and unprincipled person it would be hard to find. His first term as leader of Fife Council saw his very first set of actions being to close down Council Retirement & Nursing Homes. This along with cutting the few bob the council gave to the mentally handicapped adults at Woodlands. These young adults used to make slabs and garden furniture for sale to the public.

    The real idea behind this was to give their carers a break and keep the young adults off the streets and out of trouble. Rowley’s next action was to spend several thousand pounds on a pink leather suite for his own Fife House Office, (That was a lot of money back then). That was before he then got promoted to a high (paid), Executive position in The Labour Party in Scotland. Only to disgrace himself by being unable to keep his trousers on and thus be pushed into obscurity. Seems Scottish Labour has learned nothing as to people’s character since then.

  165. Muscleguy says:

    As a former Labour voter and an member of SCND this would be nowhere near enough to get me to vote for them again.

  166. Lollysmum says:

    Stoker & Karmanaut

    Perhaps the long term aim is to be THE National paper i.e. see off the DR & any other competition.

    Admirable aim I’d say!

  167. Jack Murphy says:

    Sorree—here’s the correct link for FM Nicola Sturgeon’s government Policy Statement 2014-2015.
    Begins at 2:40pm approx Wed 26th Nov.

  168. Stoker says:

    @ Lollysmum,

    Yes, that very well could be their thinking, here’s hoping.

  169. Truth says:

    I almost hope she gets the job over Dugdale now.

    Didn’t realise what a liability she could be.

  170. David Stevenson says:

    I have an image of Will Podmore linked arm-in-arm with his fellow Unionists, marching forward together in “unity and progress”: the BNP, Britain First, the LOL, the NF, UKIP, the Tories, Lib Dems and last but not least, rump right-wing Labour. The Communist Party of Britain should really have known better than to associate themselves with that shower. Shameful.

  171. fletch49er says:

    How far are SLAB willing to go to garner votes?? I have images of them selling themselves down at the warf for votes on an evening!

  172. Will Podmore says:

    David, I am united with the miners, steelworkers, railwaymen, shopworkers, post office workers and GMB members, all of whose unions spurned reactionary separatism. I guess you would not be linked arm-in-arm with Brian Souter? You don’t prove anything by smear-type associations. I am no more responsible for the BNP’s actions than you are for Brian Souter’s. But I note that the Scottish government does just what Mr Souter wants about bus franchises. But then we always knew that the SNP was bought and sold by capitalists.

  173. Will Podmore says:

    HandandShrimp asks how I view the Labour party’s falling membership. I’m not a member so it doesn’t affect me directly, but it’s no surprise to me given how unpopular their policies are. They are trying to sell themselves as the natural party of business, of the EU, of TTIP, and of NATO – remind you of any other parties? The SNP, for instance?
    The late great Jean-Paul Sartre, not the late great Oscar Wilde wrote (in a play, that is, in a fiction) that “hell is other people”.

  174. Will Podmore says:

    HandandShrimp asks how I view the Labour Party’s falling membership. I’m not too surprised, given that they embrace capitalism, privatisation, the EU, TTIP and NATO – remind you of anybody? The SNP, for example?
    It was the late great Jean-Paul Sartre, not the late great Oscar Wilde, who wrote “hell is other people”. And that was in a play, a fiction. It was not ‘his view’.

  175. David Stevenson says:

    Will Podmore: You are clueless as to Scottish politics. Reactionaries won the vote: Unionist reactionaries. As to the list of Unions who supported the No campaign, did even one of them actually ballot their members? Labour apparatchiks calling the shots with no democratic input. Dinosaurs: nothing more or less. Have a look at the voting patterns: Working class areas were more likely to vote Yes. Wealthier areas voted No. National question, class response with Labour on the wrong side yet again. They are ringing their own death knell. There was no “unity and progress” driving the No campaign, quite the reverse. For the CPB to support the option which as good as guaranteed renewal of Trident is a disgrace. I bought my first Morning Star on the CND demo of October 1983 and my last on 20th of September 2014.

  176. Will Podmore says:

    The two million plus who voted against separation are wealthier than the minority who voted Yes? That much wealth, under your grievous oppression? The SNP is reactionary across the board. Under the SNP, teacher numbers, college places, and NHS bed numbers are all down. They promised that they would raise economic growth to the UK level, but the performance has worsened. They promised that they would match the GDP growth rates of small EU countries, but the performance has worsened. They promised that they would improve productivity, but the performance has worsened. They promised that they would improve healthy life expectancy, but the performance has worsened.

  177. CameronB Brodie says:

    @ Will Podmore
    I never got an answer from you. Are you a Communist, English Socialist, or simply a common-or-garden troll? Or are you actually Willie Bain?

    Re. Jean-Paul Sartre. Might I suggest you take a look at Heidegger’s Being and Time. Sartre doesn’t appear to have understood it and I doubt you will either. And just in case you take this reference as evidence of my Nazi sympathies;

    “What is the meaning of being?” This is the central question of Martin Heidegger’s profoundly important work, in which the great philosopher seeks to explain the basic problems of existence. A central influence on later philosophy, literature, art, and criticism—as well as existentialism and much of postmodern thought—Being and Time forever changed the intellectual map of the modern world. As Richard Rorty wrote in the New York Times Book Review, “You cannot read most of the important thinkers of recent times without taking Heidegger’s thought into account.”

  178. CameronB Brodie says:

    @ Will Podmore
    Just to get you started.

    Heidegger Speaks

  179. Will Podmore says:

    Cameron, sorry if I failed to reply to your question. I am a British Marxist-Leninist. I prepared a paper on Heidegger for presentation to the European Society for the Philosophy of Medicine and Healthcare, and concluded that his commitment to Nazism polluted his entire philosophy, a case more eloquently put by Victor Farias in his book ‘Heidegger and Nazism’, Temple UP, 1989.
    Heidegger republished in 1953 his Introduction to metaphysics praising ‘the inner truth and greatness of National Socialism’.
    In his last interview, with Der Spiegel in 1976, Heidegger said, “The French assure of this truth again today: when they begin to think they speak German.” They realise, “despite their rationalism they are unable to face the present world when it is a question of understanding it in the origin of its essence.” He said, “within its proper limits thought ought to help man establish a satisfying relationship with technology. National Socialism certainly took that road.”
    As Rockmore and Margolis concluded in their introduction to Farias’ book, “Heidegger was a lifelong Nazi.”

  180. Will Podmore says:

    David Stevenson, we note that you resort to the stock reactionary insult when you are describing trade unions – that they don’t consult their members, that they are apparatchiks, that they are dinosaurs. You don’t defeat reaction by echoing it.
    Do you really claim that no trade unions validly decided to dare to disagree with separatism?

  181. CameronB Brodie says:

    @ Will Podmore
    Thank you for the reply. Now, at last we know that you follow Lenin, an agent of the capitalist west. Or are you going to argue against Antony Sutton now?

    In his book Between Two Ages: America’s Role in the Technetronic Era (New York: Viking Press;1970), Zbigniew Brzezinski wrote:

    For impressive evidence of Western participation in the early phase of Soviet economic growth, see Antony C. Sutton’s Western Technology and Soviet Economic Development: 1917–1930, which argues that ‘Soviet economic development for 1917–1930 was essentially dependent on Western technological aid’ (p.283), and that ‘at least 95 per cent of the industrial structure received this assistance.’ (p. 348)

    Are they all nutters Will? I suppose you reject Phenomenology, as well, preferring instead to rely on your Communist faith and that of the Communist International (1919–43)?

  182. CameronB Brodie says:

    P.S. I’m sure I heard ‘Eggs’ Murphy attack the SNP, in Dundee I think, suggesting they were in bed with the Communists. How do you feel about that? Changing tak slightly, do you also addopt a friendly stance towards Israel’s ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. I suppose genocide isn’t really a problem for Marxist-Leninist, is it?

  183. Will Podmore says:

    More reactionary red-baiting from the supposedly progressive nationalists.
    Your ideological allies Zbigniew Brzezinski and Antony Sutton seem to have forgotten the small detail that the Western nations blockaded Soviet Russia from 1917 onwards. Still, don’t let facts hinder your prejudices.
    The CPGB did seem to be divided into those who backed separatism, those who didn’t, and those who sat on the fence so long that the iron entered into their soul.
    We support the two-state solution for Palestine, and oppose ethnic cleansing.
    Your sneers about genocide are misplaced.
    Leading scholars of Russian history have refuted the claim that the famine in the Ukraine was an act of genocide. Terry Martin concluded, “The famine was not an intentional act of genocide specifically targeting the Ukrainian nation.” David Shearer noted, “Although the famine hit Ukraine hard, it was not, as some historians argue, a purposefully genocidal policy against Ukrainians. … no evidence has surfaced to suggest that the famine was planned, and it affected broad segments of the Russian and other non-Ukrainian populations both in Ukraine and in Russia.” Diane Koenker and Ronald Bachman agreed, “the documents included here or published elsewhere do not yet support the claim that the famine was deliberately produced by confiscating the harvest, or that it was directed especially against the peasants of Ukraine.” Barbara Green also agreed, “Unlike the Holocaust, the Great Famine was not an intentional act of genocide.” Steven Katz commented, “What makes the Ukrainian case non-genocidal, and what makes it different from the Holocaust, is the fact that the majority of Ukrainian children survived and, still more, that they were permitted to survive.” Adam Ulam agreed too, writing, “Stalin and his closest collaborators had not willed the famine.” Hans Blumenfeld noted that famine also struck the Russian regions of Lower Volga and North Caucasus: “This disproves the ‘fact’ of anti-Ukrainian genocide parallel to Hitler’s anti-semitic holocaust. To anyone familiar with the Soviet Union’s desperate manpower shortage in those years, the notion that its rulers would deliberately reduce that scarce resource is absurd … Up to the 1950s the most frequently quoted figure was two million [famine victims]. Only after it had been established that Hitler’s holocaust had claimed six million victims, did anti-Soviet propaganda feel it necessary to top that figure by substituting the fantastic figure of seven to ten million …”
    But unsurprisingly, you align yourself with the nationalists of the Ukrainian extreme right.

  184. CameronB Brodie says:

    Your ideological allies Zbigniew Brzezinski and Antony Sutton seem to have forgotten the small detail that the Western nations blockaded Soviet Russia from 1917 onwards. Still, don’t let facts hinder your prejudices.

    Please do not make false assertions as to what I have said or believe. I have made no declination of my ideological position, so you are flat out making things up.

    My understanding of the period is as follows.

    1917 – The Bolsheviks, led by Vladimir Lenin take power in Russia. (Where did they get their money from and how did Lenin travel to St. Petersburg across war-torn Europe, from exile in Switzerland, through Germany and Sweden, and finally to Russia, where his arrival triggered the Bolshevik revolution?)

    1922 – The Soviet Union is formed, annexing the Ukraine.

    1924 – Joseph Stalin grabs power following Lenin’s death.

    1928 – Stalin imposes forced agricultural collectivization, which he expects to provide surpluses to sell on the international markets. One of his few potential sources of foreign exchange.

    1929 – Ukranian farmers object and are branded kurkuls (class enemies).

    1930 – A pogrom is launched against the kurkuls, with forced confiscation of land, livestock and property, and entire families deported to Siberian Katorga established under imperialist Russia.

    1932-1933 – Increased production quotas are introduced and enforced through military occupation. Mass starvation comences. Did Stalin not state that the national question is in essence a rural question and did he not state that he aimed to deal a crushing blow to the Ukrainian farmers through famine? Was this not added to by mass execution? Was foreign assistance not rejected, as this would indicate Soviet failure? Were those who made allegations of famine not persecuted as spreading anti-Soviet propaganda?

    Finally, Franklin D. Roosevelt formally recognises the Soviet Union, and western investment enables the first 5 year plan to commence. All contract awarded to western corporations.

    2006 – The Ukrainian Parliament defines the Holodomor as a deliberate Act of Genocide.

    As to your references, at least you didn’t include Walter Duranty, for example. Are you really trying to defend Stalinist brutality towards the kolkhozs? Do you also dismiss Phenomenology as easily as you do Heidegger?

    Your faith appears strong brother.

  185. CameronB Brodie says:

    declination = declaration

  186. Will Podmore says:

    Your (mis)understanding of Soviet history seems to be the same as Brzezinski’s.
    For some facts (not faith) – Isaac Mazepa, leader of the Ukrainian Nationalist movement, admitted, “At first there were mass disturbances in the kolkhosi or else the Communist officials and their agents were killed, but later a system of passive resistance was favoured which aimed at the systematic frustration of the Bolsheviks’ plans for the sowing and gathering of the harvest. … The opposition of the Ukrainian population caused the failure of the grain-storing plan of 1931, and still more so, that of 1932. … The autumn and spring sowing campaigns both failed. Whole tracts were left unsown. In addition, when the crop was being gathered last year, it happened that, in many areas, especially in the south, 20, 40 and even 50 per cent was left in the fields, and was either not collected at all or was ruined in the threshing.”
    Stalin wrote in his May 1933 letter to the novelist Mikhail Sholokhov, “the esteemed grain growers of your region (and not only your region) carried out a sitdown strike (sabotage!) and would not have minded leaving the workers and the Red Army without bread. The fact that the sabotage was quiet and apparently harmless (bloodless) does not alter the fact that the esteemed grain growers were basically waging a ‘quiet’ war against Soviet power. A war by starvation (voina na izmor), dear com. Sholokhov …”
    Michael Ellman recently commented “Stalin’s idea that he had faced a peasant strike was not an absurd notion indicating paranoia. It seems that there really were numerous collective refusals by collective farmers to work for the collective farms in 1932.”
    Wolf Ladejinsky pointed out at the time, “On February 17, 1932, almost six months before the harvesting of the new crop the Council of People’s Commissars of the USSR and the Central Committee of the Communist Party, directed that the collective farms in the eastern part of the country, which had suffered from the drought, be loaned over six million quintals of grain for the establishment of both seed and food funds. … Certain areas, such as the Ukraine and North Caucasus which … had to consume all the available grain, remained with little or no seed funds. In this case the Soviet Government loaned to the collectives of the Ukraine almost 3.1 million quintals of seed, and to those of the North Caucasus, over 2 million quintals.”
    Historian Mark Tauger explained, “The evidence that I have published and other evidence, including recent Ukrainian document collections, show that the famine developed out of a shortage and pervaded the Soviet Union, and that the regime organized a massive program of rationing and relief in towns and in villages, including in Ukraine, but simply did not have enough food. This is why the Soviet famine, an immense crisis and tragedy of the Soviet economy, was not in the same category as the Nazis’ mass murders, which had no agricultural or other economic basis.” He noted, “Ukraine received more in food supplies during the famine crisis than it exported to other republics. … Soviet authorities made substantial concessions to Ukraine in response to an undeniable natural disaster and transferred resources from Russia to Ukraine for food relief and agricultural recovery.”

  187. CameronB Brodie says:

    You still appear desperate to paint me as a right-wing naz…nast…nationalist, which could not be further from the truth. According to Political Compass, my outlook is almost exactly the same as Gandhi’s, with a little added libertarianism. I doubt we will agree on the history of the Soviet, as you are a Communist and I am not.

    Do you live in the real world? How likely is it that your idealism will play any part of Britain’s future? Do you reject Phenomenology?

  188. Will Podmore says:

    Yes, I reject the idealist phenomenological approach, just as I reject all varieties of idealism.
    You should read Lenin’s book ‘Materialism and empirio-criticism’, which refutes idealism in philosophy.

  189. CameronB Brodie says:

    Will Podmore
    Twisting and turning like a turnie twisty thing. Where did I mention the idealist phenomenological approach?

    Yet more self-confirming argument from our resident Stalinist. Oh how we laugh.

  190. Paula Rose says:

    Oh how sweet – our favourite stalinist appears – plodding into the mire, Willie dear are you serious? Gosh you are a gem – you really are, so silly.

  191. CameronB Brodie says:

    Will Podmore

    Tran Duc Thao, a brilliant student of philosophy at the Ecole Normale Superieure within the post-1935 decade of political disaster, born in Vietnam shortly after the First World War, recipient of a scholarship in Paris in 1935 37, was early noted for his independent and originaI mind_ While the 1930s twisted down to the defeat of the Spanish Republic, the compromise with German Fascism at Munich, and the start of the Second World War, and while the 1940s began with hypocritical stability at the Western Front fol lowed by the defeat of France, and the occupation of Paris by the German power together with French collaborators, and then ended with liberation and a search for a new understanding of human situations, the young Thao was deeply immersed in the classical works of European philosophy. He was also the attentive but critical student of a quite special generation of French metaphysicians and social philosophers: Gaston Berger, Maurice Merleau Ponty, Emile Brehier, Henri Lefebvre, Rene le Senne, Jean-Paul Sartre, perhaps the young Louis Althusser. They, in their several modes of response, had been meditating for more than a decade on the philosophy of Edmund Husserl, which came to France in the thirties as a new metaphysical enlightenment – phenomenology.

    Why, I’d horse-whip you if I had a horse.

  192. CameronB Brodie says:

    @ Will Podmore

    Karl Marx. The German Ideology. 1845
    Part I: Feuerbach.
    Opposition of the Materialist and Idealist Outlook
    A. Idealism and Materialism

    Empirically, communism is only possible as the act of the dominant peoples “all at once” and simultaneously, which presupposes the universal development of productive forces and the world intercourse bound up with communism.

    No lack of ambition there then? That’s where the totalitarianism comes into play, eh? That’s OK though, because you have the correct (sic) ideology.

    Ideology is a system of concepts and views which serves to make sense of the world while obscuring the social interests that are expressed therein, and by its completeness and relative internal consistency tends to form a closed system and maintain itself in the face of contradictory or inconsistent experience.

  193. CameronB Brofie says:

    @ Will Podmore

    Better Together UKOK?

    “capitalism generates a conflict-ridden foreign policy”

  194. CameronB Brodie says:

    @ Will Podmore
    Perhaps my argument isn’t clear.

    As a Marxist-Leninist, I assume you interpret society as reflecting, and being defined by, the ‘class struggle’ between a bourgeoisie and the proletariat.

    IMO, this sort of determinism is an over-simplistic viewpoint, which ignores the impracticality of attempting to codify modern society as ‘black hats and white hats’. It also leaves no room for free-will. In other words, I think you are trying to force 21st century reality into an early-20th century conceptual cul-de-sac.

    I also fail to spot the logical consistency in your position. Did you not consider the Yes movement as a form of ‘vanguard’, which sought to bring about an improvement of Scotland’s circumstance? Was the Yes movement simply too broad-based for you, thereby contradicting the elitist Bolshevik viewpoint? Is it simply a case of SNP BAD and they will be in government for ever and ever? Are you in reality an English Socialist?

    Please explain, as I would love to understand how you are able to be so critical of the British state, yet reject the one and only practical avenue for real change (i.e. the dissolution of Britain).

  195. Will Podmore says:

    No Cameron, I agree you did not mention the idealist phenomenological approach. I called phenomenology idealist, because that is what it is. Husserl was an idealist. As John Passmore wrote in his superb history, A hundred years of philosophy, Husserl “is more than ready to admit his allegiance to the tradition of German Objective idealism – his work, he says, puts idealism on a scientific basis for the first time.” (page 194.)
    No, I do not consider the Yes campaign to be positive. The No campaign proved to be more broad-based, by winning more votes.
    The one and only practical avenue for real change is not to divide and split the one and only agent of real change, the British working class.

  196. CameronB Brodie says:

    @ Will Podmore

    Drugs are bad… mky. Stop taking the ACID.

  197. Will Podmore says:

    Cameron, you have, even though you don’t know it, just thrown in the towel.
    Abuse is the last refuge of the loser.

  198. CameronB Brodie says:

    @ Will Podmore
    No Will, I think you chucked it in before me, with the highly selective and weak nature of your replies. You are a dissembler and not a very good one at that.

    Now, please away and annoy someone else. Preferably somewhere where you have a vote.

  199. Will Podmore says:

    Cameron, sorry but your response only confirms that you have run out of arguments, and can only resort to insult. I have a vote in our country Britain. So do you. Perhaps you should consider what to do with it, for the good of our whole country. And if I were in Scotland, and could vote against the SNP, I certainly would, because it not only social-democratic, like Labour and the LibDems but it is the most pro-division, pro-EU, and pro-TTIP.
    Did you see Sturgeon’s recent praise of the City of London? “London has a centrifugal pull on talent, investment and business from the rest of Europe and the world. That brings benefits to the broader UK economy.” So she is backing the City of London, backing finance capital! Are you happy with that? Representing you, is she?

  200. CameronB Brodie says:

    @ Will Podmore
    Sorry Will, I missed your reply.

    Are you not aware that Britain is a political union of two countries, Scotland and England. Exactly as the former Soviet was a political union of nations (forced). There is no such country as Britain.

    Do you accept free will and self-determination are human rights?

  201. Will Podmore says:

    Yes, Britain is a union, a united country, created over the centuries by the efforts of the British working class to create national bodies, like our trade unions, our NHS, the BBC, an integrated energy industry, etc. Read Michael Fry’s books for the detail.

  202. CameronB Brodie says:

    @ Will Podmore
    Make up your own disillusion interpretations if you wish.

    Your are an English Socialist, as in 1984, and I claim my £5 gift voucher.

  203. CameronB Brodie says:

    @ Will Podmore
    P.S. Do you consider free will and self-determination to be human rights?

  204. Will Podmore says:

    I answered your questions in the area on the Conservative and Labour party. Nations do have the right to self-determination. Colonies have every right to oust their colonial oppressor. But Scotland is not a colony.
    Free will is arguably a necessary condition for the exercise of moral responsibility.

  205. CameronB Brodie says:

    @ Will Podmore
    Yep, we’re crossing threads. See you on t’other.

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