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Praying for skinheads

Posted on July 31, 2021 by

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313 to “Praying for skinheads”

  1. Athanasius says:

    Don’t get I.

  2. Captain Yossarian says:

    Are we allowed in Scotland to pray for an honest lawyer? Is that allowed these days? Or do they come looking for you to lock you up.

  3. Morgatron says:

    Brilliant Chris.

  4. Hugh Jarse says:

    Early que for the garden party?

  5. 100%Yes says:

    If Scotland was Independent today it would be as if we where still living under the Westminster sytem but only worse. Stinks to high heaven.

  6. stuart mctavish says:

    Motto for the new passports: dieu veut mon (bras) droit

  7. Shocked says:

    So is this wings buying into La Sturgeon’s excuse for her heartless slaughter of drug users in Scotland?

    Drug users are dying in Scotland because Nicola Sturgeon cut the budget for rehab beds (despite clear warnings not to) in order to pick a constitutional fight. With the same laws she is killing over 3.5 x as many people as are dying in England and Wales. Rehab centres in Scotland are actually selling beds to foreign patients because Sturgeon has cut the budget so much. A budget that in the grand scheme of things is tiny and was cut for political rather than financial reasons.

    This sums up the whole problem with Sturgeon, rather than trying to prove independence could work by showing a better way, her tactic is to use people like drug users as cannon fodder to pick a constitutional fight. But this is what happens when you are a heartless psychopath like Sturgeon who as a new Puritan thinks people who drink and take drugs are beneath contempt.

    Well done wings for buying into her lies.

  8. Robert Hughes says:

    Shocked @ 8.51

    Yes , the socio/psychopath cutting back on funding for drug related issues – rehab , prevention etc , whilst awarding her RCS attack dogs the best part of £5m .

    Not to say RCS don’t provide necessary services for the victims of sexual and other abuse , but , like so much in our country now , it has lost much credibility by it’s compliant willingness to serve the interests of the Cabal

    Are the male and female casualties of drug and drug-related problems not as worthy of care and compassion as anyone else ?

  9. Hatuey says:

    This is the funniest thing any of you will see today.

    (if the YouTube link doesn’t work, well… figure it out)

  10. Shocked says:

    @ Robert

    In sturgeon’s mind you are either there to be used or discarded.

    All the whinging about consumption rooms is absolute rubbish, people are not dying from injecting heroin it is heroin substitutes like methadone and various tablet form opiates that are doing the killing. A lot of them prescribed by sturgeon as she tries to euthanise drug users as cannon fodder in a constitutional fight. Her reaction to this scandal shows exactly how cold hearted and calculating she is. The slide rule will have been applied to how many dead are required to get drug laws devolved. Even though the “ incompetent and heartless” English tories seem to be doing a far better job with exactly the same laws, the difference? Actual proper rehab treatment centres.

    She is 100% responsible for this yet the fake empathy is turned in and the compliant and bent media lap it up and some fringes of the Indy movement applaud as their dream of drug decriminalisation edges nearer.

    I know if 2 people who have died of drug overdoses, both of them were put on the path by family tragedies that they struggled with and both died from heroin substitute overdoses. Neither of them got rehab treatment. In one case all that was done was to move him to another town to supposedly get away from drugs, as if drugs don’t exist in every town in Scotland. He was dead with 2 months of the move.

  11. Republicofscotland says:

    Nice one Chris the lack of consumptions rooms in Scotland is the fault of Sturgeon, she’s not willing to stand up to Westminster and save the lives of young Scots dying from drug addiction.

    Since she became FM the drug deaths toll has risen year on year, Sturgeon as with just about everything else, promised to do something to save the lives of these young folk but she and her government have failed miserably.

    It shows you how much Sturgeon cares for young Scots addicted to drugs, when she won’t dare consider defying Westminster to open drug consumption rooms to save the lives of these vulnerable young Scots. The simple fact is that Scotland’s colonial government just don’t care, the party and its agenda comes first, whilst our graveyards fill up with young Scots who could not find safety in a drug consumption room because Sturgeon doesn’t care about Scots.

  12. Republicofscotland says:

    Meanwhile Mike Russell has along winded page in the National, on why we mustn’t really argue about Scotland having a constitution until we’re independent, and this is the guy that’s supposed come up with an indy plan and present it in September, which begins tomorrow.

    Simply put we’re f*cked.

  13. Captain Yossarian says:

    @Shocked – your posts this morning demonstrate why Nicola Sturgeon desperately wants rid of the bloggers, WoS especially. They are what the vapid folk at Holyrood would call a ‘truth bomb’. (I’m thinking of Ross Greer, but there are others)

  14. Republicofscotland says:

    Joanna Cherry has thanked her Twitter followers for their support after a man was found guilty of sending her threatening Twitter messages. Cherry however is disappointed that not one person from the SNP’s hierarchy condemned the vile threats by this man on Ms Cherry.

    Nothing surprising there the SNP/Scottish government didn’t condemn the outrageous sentencing of Craig Murray either.

  15. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Shocked –

    A lot of us are ignorant when it comes to this subject, especially if we’ve been fortunate enough not to have had our loved ones affected directly.

    Did you hear the ex-cop who called in to the Steven Jardine show? not sure if it was yesterday or Thursday. He sounded like he knew his stuff too, but time ran out when he was in full flow. Wish I could remember his name.

    The idea that Sturgeon could be using this issue to buy cheap political points is truly sickening, but, given what we now know about her, isn’t really a surprise.

  16. Mist001 says:

    @ Republicofscotland says:

    “Meanwhile Mike Russell has along winded page in the National, on why we mustn’t really argue about Scotland having a constitution until we’re independent”

    See? This is what I’m saying, there’s absolutely NO plan for independence whatsoever. Everything is ‘We’ll sort that out after independence’.

    Anyone serious about independence would say ‘Right. Here’s the plan, this is what we’re going for and this is what we’re going to do.’

  17. Ruby says:

    Mist001 says:

    Anyone serious about independence would say ‘Right. Here’s the plan, this is what we’re going for and this is what we’re going to do.’


    Can you give some examples of the sort of thing you think they should say?

  18. Breastplate says:

    It’s not about what we do but WHO decides what we do.

    You’ve just celebrated Bastille Day a couple of weeks ago which wouldn’t have happened if everybody was concerned that it would create a shortage of foie gras and pains au chocolat.

    Again, pretty much everything can only be sorted after independence, anything else is just wind and pish.
    Obviously, there will be a lot of talking the talk about walking the walk which is just prevarication.
    Procrastination is the name of the game for Mike Russel and the SNP, wind and pish.

  19. Gary45% says:

    Striking heavy “toon” Chris.
    Ian B@10.19
    I was talking to a member of the plod last week, ( I’ve known them since they were a kid). I was asking them how life/work was in the central belt. They mentioned the drug death situation without going into any details, I could see the pain in their face, they were heartbroken at the situation. Dealing with avoidable death on a regular basis is not easy for anyone.
    If any of you have children or grandchildren advise them to leave the UK at the first opportunity, this pebble in the puddle is FKD on so many levels that it can never be repaired.

  20. Pixywine says:

    Hatuey. That video is hilarious. Good one.

  21. Mist001 says:

    @ Ruby

    Yes I can. I would start by saying ‘yes, we want an independent Scotland and here’s the plan…’

    Nobody has a plan.

    Start with the currency. ‘We WILL be using the pound, the groat, the euro, the Dogecoin’ whatever.

    Make a decision and stick to that and put it before the people in a multiple choice question. You can do that with every matter AND it can be done before any independence referendum.

    As you know, most of the population behave like sheep, so tell them what’s going to happen, give them a choice and when the majority is in favour of Dogecoin as a currency, then nobody can argue because it’s what they wanted.

    Once you have the results of these votes/questionaires, then you can press ahead with a referendum or whatever way independence is going to be delivered and you will succeed because you can tell the people that you will deliver exactly what they asked for.

    At the moment, nobody knows what’s going on. All people are getting is a basic binary question, do you want Scotland to be independent, yes or no?

    Nobody knows what’s going to happen if Scotland becomes independent but you can stack the odds in your favour by asking people what they want to see beforehand.

  22. Luigi says:

    Absolutely nothing about Craig Murray on the BBC during the past 48 hours. Not a peep. Did I blink and miss something?

  23. Shocked says:

    @Republicof Scotland

    Consumption rooms are a red herring, with the same laws the rest of the UK have drug death levels at least 3.5x lower than Scotland and lower than countries that operate consumption rooms and lower than almost all of the Scandinavian countries we are meant to aspire to. Why? Because they have proper a rehab system where people are sent for treatment to get off drugs. We had a rehab system, Nicola Sturgeon as health minister almost shut it down to start a political fight and then when she became First Minister she basically finished the job. If you look at the deaths figures they have exploded exponentially since 2014, all thanks to Nicola Sturgeon who sees other human beings as cannon fodder to be used.

    In Scotland if you have a drug problem all they do is prescribe methadone or some other heroin substitute and leave you to it, rehab is not even an option. The end result is many of them eventually die, in fact more drug users die from prescribed heroin substitutes than actual heroin. Sturgeon is actually spending our money to deliberately kill people. I bet if they didn’t even bother with heroin substitutes and did nothing less people would die. It is also arguable that minimum alcohol pricing has contributed as street fixes are cheaper than a few cans of cider so why drink when you can get even more off your head in a couple of pills…. That unfortunately may kill you.

    I have friend who has a pharmacy, every methadone prescription day her prescription counter is virtually queued out the door. She says you get to know some of the people fairly well and then one week they don’t come because they have OD’d and died. There is no thought given to how to treat these people beyond keeping them out of sight and mind and then exploiting their deaths. Many in the supposed Scottish charity sector have sold out so badly to the New SNP and saint Nicola that they try or support policies that are actually killing the people these charities are meant to protect. I actually got banned from Twitter for calling out a fake drug counsellor account that was clearly run by a New SNP activist. Also the fact that Sturgeon has appointed Constance, a certified imbecile and moron who has been sacked twice for incompetence, to supposedly deal with the drug deaths crisis tells you everything.

    As for people talking about a constitution, would you want a constitution written by the New SNP and a right wing moon howler like Mike Russell? Russell is so far to the right I doubt the tories would even have him. He’s the only mainstream politician I’ve ever seen try to argue for the NHS and social welfare to be abolished, the man is a complete idiot with it. So once Indy comes the problems cannot not be “sorted out after” because if the New SNP and idiots like Russell are anywhere near the decision making we are going to end up with a complete disaster. A one party state that gives the New SNP absolute power. The New SNP needs eradicated from Scottish political life and we need to start again,

  24. Dan says:

    25 years on since the Trainspotting film and new meaning brought to…

    …we know you’re getting a hard time off Lizzy but there’s really no need to take it out on us.

    1 min clip of It’s shite being Scottish.

  25. Doug says:

    Mike Russell gets it right. I’m going for a wee lie down.

  26. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Hatuey (9.19) –


    😉 🙂 🙂

  27. Mia says:

    “Meanwhile Mike Russell has along winded page in the National, on why we mustn’t really argue about Scotland having a constitution until we’re independent”

    Well of course he does! I wouldn’t expect anything less from an useful idiot who is helping the current political fraud in control of the tetraplegic SNP to delay if not derail Scotland’s independence while keeping yes supporters on a leash.

    A constitution is the first step to define what being a Scot is. It is the first step to define the procedure for nationality, for naturalisation, to define Scotland’s citizenship and who has the right to vote. It gives the opportunity to give ancestry the weight it rightly deserves in ensuring Scots, and only Scots or naturalised Scots who have sworn allegiance to Scotland, vote in its referendums and elections.

    Every country that functions as a country, even colonies like Gibraltar and Maldives, that are serious about autonomy, have one and put ancestry at the core of the definition of what a citizen is and who can or cannot vote. Scotland must be the only world exception.

    If we aspire to ever have a fair franchise that gives Scotland’s natives the right to self determination and to control their own country, we need that constitution. We need defined boundaries of what constitutes Scottish citizenship.

    It is the lack of that constitution in my view what led us to have instead of a decent franchise in 2014 that would have secured the will of the natives, an aberration specifically designed to open the vote to individuals from outwith Scotland, purposely to balance out the vote of natives depriving them of their right to self determination.

    Russell, the same as Sturgeon, clearly do not want a referendum. If they did they would have never made a mockery of democracy, they would never deny Scotland its right to self determination by embarrassingly handing vetos to Westminster and would have never let our mandate from 2016 and the ones they got after that to expire as they did.

    But if a referendum they must have as their last gatekeeper to stop Scotland becoming independent, they want one where the right of self determination of the natives can be frustrated again, just as it was in 2014.

    That is why in 6.5 years both, the political fraud and Russell, allegedly the constitution main person in Scotland’s government for 5 years, did absolutely nothing to progress a constitution or to improve a franchise that was proven flawed against the native Scots frustrating their right to self determination.

    Russell does not want to see a constitution, particularly one where the minions of the British state in control of the SNP do not have all their fingers in the pie, because if we have a decent constitution, they will no longer have an excuse/justification to force on us more “civic nationalism” bollocks or whatever other bullshit name they come up with for the active process of undermining Scots ancestry, with a franchise that deliberately denies Scotland its self determination.

    The Maldives and Gibraltar, openly British controlled territories like Scotland is, have a constitution. They define naturalisation and citizenship, who can vote and who cannot.

    So why don’t we?

    What is the difference between Maldives/Gibraltar and Scotland when the three are territories controlled by the British state?

    Two things:

    1. the predominant ancestry of the native population (British in origin rather than natural from the place itself in both the maldives and Gibraltar, and Scottish in Scotland)

    2. geographic location

    If The Maldives and Gibraltar where to have open franchises like Scotland is being forced to have, it would not be people from the rUK who would be likely to join in to vote to balance out the natives’ vote. It would be people from Argentina or Spain, respectively, which, self evidently, would vote actively against the interests of the British state.

    If Maldives and Gibraltar had open franchises like Scotland and had the level of influx of incomers from outwith their territories at the rate Scotland does per year, Maldives and Gibraltar would have ceased to be British controlled territories an awful long time ago.

    It is that strict control of the franchise and giving huge importance to the ancestry of the geographic area what Brits are relying upon to stop them becoming independent while keeping the appearance of democracy.

    In Scotland we have the exact opposite situation. It is by denying the rightful importance to ancestry in our referendums and elections that we continue welded to England.

    An open franchise in Scotland is leaving the door wide open for individuals from the rUK without Scots ancestry to balance out the vote of natives, which, given the abysmal political differences between Scotland and England, is wonderfully convenient for the British state. That is why we have an open franchise.

    THAT external continuous interference of the British state is why Scotland needs desperately a constitution with a clear definition of Scots naturalisation and citizenship. Just like Maldives and Gibraltar have to apply the handbreak to external interference. And no, we don’t have to wait to become independent to have a constitution. Neither Maldives nor Gibraltar are independent and yet they have had one for several years. Certainly longer than Sturgeon has been in control of the SNP.

    Under the political fraud in control of the SNP and her useful idiots like Russell, Scotland will never have a fair franchise until we have a constitution drafted by somebody else within the yes movement. Somebody else who has the interests of the native Scots, and not those of the British state, at heart.

    But frankly, seeing how determined the political fraud and her useful idiots like Russell are to deny us a constitution, to deny us the right to Scotland’s citizenship, to deny us the importance of ancestry, to deny us self determination and to deny us a fair franchise, I am not sure we want people like these two anywhere near our Scots constitution.

  28. Fred says:

    I’ve spent most of my adult life working with drug users in the west of Scotland, so this particular issue is close to my heart and I’ve lost count of people who i’ve known and are no longer here due to drug use.
    If anybody thinks there is a one-stop solution they’re wrong. The problem is hugely complex and continues to grow in its complexity.
    I’d tend to agree with Shocked in that consumption rooms, although well meaning and may have some small positive impact, are small-fry when trying to tackle the overall issue of drug deaths.
    For people like you and I, it seems an obvious solution but drug users tend to live extremely chaotic lives. They’re spontaneous and wholly opportunistic and the idea that someone who scores a tenner bag will then pause, travel to and, possibly, wait for a consumption room to open in order to ensure they don’t overdose is so unrealistic as to be farcical.
    One of the saddest thing in dealing with people in the drug using community(particularly heroin users) is that they themselves have usually got to stage where they have such low regard for their own lives that they’ll easily prefer to play Russian roulette by injecting in the nearest flat, close or back alley, and accept the hit of an overdose or death, rather than stopping and taking the ‘sensible’ option.

    It runs completely counter-intuitive to most people but In the mind of many heroin users – whatever the result, either a momentary numbness from injecting heroin or dying from an overdose- it doesn’t actually matter.
    Both take away the pain.

  29. Jon Drummond says:

    Aye, the state we’re in.

    And even this very day Angela Constance, Minister for Drug Policy continues to post pictures of her Doc Marten boot collection.

    Continuing lack of self awareness defies belief.

    Think she gives a fuck?

    Me neither

  30. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Brilliant piece, by Jonathan Cook.

    ‘In fact, the legal basis of “jigsaw identification” – one could argue the whole point of it – is that it accrues dangerous powers to the state. It gives permission for the legal establishment to arbitrarily decide which piece of the supposed jigsaw is to be counted as identification. If the BBC’s Kirsty Wark includes a piece of the jigsaw, it does not count as identification in the eyes of the court. If Murray or another independent journalist offers a different piece of the jigsaw, it does count. The obvious ease with which this principle can be abused by the establishment to oppress and silence dissident journalists should not need underscoring.’

  31. James Che. says:

    It only takes a few to believe or not to believe.

    And his book OBEDIENCE TO AUTHORITY in 1974.

  32. Ron Maclean says:

    @Mia 12:25pm

    ‘A constitution is the first step to define what being a Scot is.’

    Of course it is, and until one is recognised and acted upon we’ll continue to be ruled by a gang of pseudo toffs too busy filling their handbags to do anything worthwhile.

  33. Annie 621 says:

    Well said Fred.

  34. Ruby says:

    Mist001 says:
    31 July, 2021 at 11:49 am
    @ Ruby

    Yes I can. I would start by saying ‘yes, we want an independent Scotland and here’s the plan…’

    Nobody has a plan.

    Start with the currency.


    Currency! Is that all you’ve got?
    Any other suggestions?

    The only time you can ask people what they want in an independent Scotland is when Scotland is independent.

    Do you think the Unionist side should outline what is going to happen in the future should Scotland decide to remain in the Union or is that a crazy suggestion?

  35. James Che. says:

    When you read the speeches held before Westminster set up devolved Scottish government, and the bill that followed, it can be nothing other than a method to prevent independence in Scotland, the speeches refer to independence many times,
    Basicly it sets apart any direct relationship between our representatives we vote for in Scottish government,
    and [ their ] ability to move in either direction to pursue independence for Scotland through that particular government or laws.

    However, speech after speech and discussion after discussion in the parliament down south prior to the devolved set up still worried, what the sovereign Scot would do, if they pushed for it,

    The Scottish government is not sovereign,
    The people are, it is up to us.

  36. Cath says:

    Are we allowed in Scotland to pray for an honest lawyer?

    This reminds me of an old joke (no, not Lady Dorrian, a shaggy dog story joke), and since it’s a boring Saturday morning…

    There was once a couple, call them Billy and Jemma, who were madly in love. Jemma had her heart set on the most romantic wedding possible, so had planned the marriage vows in a romantic wee church, high up in the Alps. Billy would have been happy with the local church and a pint in the social club, but he loved Jemma and wanted her to be happy. But tragically, on the day of the wedding, the weather was awful and, as the cars were snaking their way up the mountain pass, a landslip pushed Billy and Jemma’s car off the road and both were killed.

    They arrived, a little confused and still in their wedding finery, at the gates of Heaven where they were greeted by St Peter holding a clip board.

    ‘We’ve been expecting you,’ he said.
    ‘Look,’ Jemma asked, ‘We were on our way to get married and the idea of entering heaven still single is just…I mean, is there any way we could get married in heaven?’
    ‘I don’t know,’ St Peter said. ‘No one’s ever asked that before. Wait a moment, I’ll go and find out.’

    He disappeared and he was away for ages and ages. Hours stretched into days and Jemma and Billy started arguing. He blamed her and her stupid romantic ideas. They could have been married locally, had a few pints and be living life. Jemma saw the man she was marrying had no sense of romance at all and was more interested in the beer and party than the wedding. Billy saw Jemma as a right nag.

    Days stretched into a week, then two before eventully St Peter returned. ‘I’ve done it!’ he said with a smile. ‘I’ve arranged it so you can get married in heaven.’

    ‘That’s great,’ Jemma and Billy said. ‘But, well, if we change our minds later, can we get divorced in heaven as well?’

    St Peter threw down the clip board and said, “For fuck sake! It’s taken me two weeks to find a priest in here. Now you want me to find two lawyers and a judge?’

  37. Ruby says:

    The whole of the 2014 IndyRef campaign got bogged down with discussion about EU membership and look at where we are now!

  38. Shocked says:

    Agree 100% Fred.

    Consumption rooms for the New SNP are just about creating an argument to salami slice reserved powers.

    If you are so desperate for a fix you don’t care where you do it then why go there and if you are still capable of thinking where you are going to take your fix would will do it in a private residence where you don’t get disturbed by random people and can effectively mong out in peace. Not some place with uncomfy chairs that designed so you don’t hang around too long after taking your drugs…. And in any case it’s not injecting drugs that is killing people so in reality it’s nothing but a distraction.

  39. panda paws says:

    And the new SNP complaints officer is a man who has a history of online abuse of Joanna Cherry.

    I don’t know how she finds the courage to go on. Her Westminster seat is one of the 3 Scotland is losing so she won’t get selected next time even if she wants to. Just go to Alba, Joanna, don’t put yourself through this.

  40. James Che. says:

    We have to organise us, not the devolved government
    We have to abolish the British devolved government in Scotland and replace it with a Scottish convocation with the purpose of creating a new government for Scotland where sovereignty remains with the individual people of Scotland as a nation and country.

    This is the only way to independence, spoken about and agreed upon, recognised by both England and Scotland’s political leaders speeches prior to devolved government,who had the intent to stop independence,
    The British/Scottish devolved government is a hollow sham for the Scots
    But could they not deny the sovereignty of the Scots in any of those speeches. NO.

    We the people of Scotland must pull our selfs together,

  41. panda paws says:

    Ps the new complaints officer also thinks if you have ever written for or even shared WOS, you should be kicked out the SNP!

  42. Willie says:

    There’s no votes in the drug deaths in Sturgeon’s fascist colony come statelet.

    By and large those who die will be in Sturgeon’s mind scummers of no importance. Detritus by the roadside. And 10,000 of them too over the last ten years. Just like the 7,600 who died of COVID the vast majority of whom were the old and infirm in care homes.

    She let them die too following the Dominic Cummings – Boris Johnson policy of letting the virus spread to develop herd immunity, protect the economy, and unfortunate if a few elderly die. They too were detritus.

    COVID elderly or drug scammers, who cares. Certainly not Nicola Sturgeon albeit that should would tell you otherwise.

  43. James Che. says:

    Do you really think that the SNP, labour or Tories in devolved government in Scotland are listening to any of us,
    The purpose to bring down AS, CM, and all the others, to stop marches, to divide Scottish people was to stop the momentum that was gathering in the Scottish sovereign people.

  44. Cath says:

    Do you really think that the SNP, labour or Tories in devolved government in Scotland are listening to any of us,

    No. I think they’re all laughing at us from their tables at the poshest restaurants in Scotland, where they’re wining and dining with the usual suspects in Scottish “journalism”. Toasting their success in protecting the old Scottish establishment, with its yellow rebranding.

  45. Ron Maclean says:

    “In this book, following the conventional usage of almost all democracies outside the United Kingdom, the word ‘Constitution’ refers always to a supreme law that, as a minimum: (i) defines the state; (ii) regulates its major political institutions and processes; (iii) protects civil liberties and fundamental human rights; (iv) is binding on all institutions of the state, including Parliament itself; and (v) can be amended only by a special process, usually requiring a broader consensus than that required for the enactment of ordinary legislation. The UK, in this sense of the word, has no ‘constitution’ at all and the idea of an ‘unwritten, unentrenched, unenforceable constitution’ is oxymoronic.”

    From: The Introduction to ‘A Constitution for the Common Good’ by W Elliot Bulmer

  46. Ron Maclean says:

    @Cath 1:48pm

    Aye, that’s about it.

  47. James Che. says:

    Ron Maclean.
    I agree that we have to set up a method or way to distinguish indigenous Scots and naturalised Scots,
    for even NS, Russel are acting as if they were not born here, as did Gordon brown who seemed to have an intense dislike for his own countrymen in exchange for British honours and financial benifits,
    There are Scots in the snp whom think short term financial rewards and political status are more important to them and their immediate families than independence for their families long term,

    It is going to become an important issue wether you believe you are Scottish or British first,

  48. Mist001 says:

    @ Ruby

    So your idea is ‘Right. We have independence. What do we do now?’

    Nobody knows what money they’re going to use, nobody knows what imports and exports they have, nobody even knows where their next meal is coming from.

    Your idea sounds great.

  49. Meg merrilees says:

    Luigi @ 12.01

    this is the ONLY article I have seen/read about Craig Murray and I found it by accident tucked away on the BBC website. Couldn’t find without going back into my history – so it is not exactly being displayed openly!

  50. Captain Yossarian says:

    @Ian Brotherhood, 12.43pm – I can only agree. No legal precedent, all done just to accord with Lady Dorrian’s view of the world.

    It seems to be one humiliating legal farce after another and that’s been the case for the past few years.

    Lord Keanne (I don’t know if you remember him). He resigned from Boris Johnson’s gov. over the proroguing of parliament scandal and he’s now one of Sturgeon’s stable of £500/hour legal stooges in Edinburgh.

    Should have stayed where he was. We would all be better off if he had stayed where he was.

  51. Ron Maclean says:

    @James Che. 2:11pm

    I’m not sure that I suggested we have to distinguish between indigenous Scots and naturalised Scots. I think fairness, justice and equality should be at the heart of an independent Scotland.

  52. Scott says:

    Shocked says:
    31 July, 2021 at 12:02 pm

    I have friend who has a pharmacy, every methadone prescription day her prescription counter is virtually queued out the door.

    Methadone is dispensed daily, not weekly. Say hello to your imaginary pharmacist pal for us.

  53. Saffron Robe says:

    Britishness is not an ethnicity, it is a political ideology. One cannot be ethnically British, only ideologically British. When used to denote ethnicity it is used incorrectly to mean English i.e. Anglo-Saxon.

  54. Scott says:

    Captain Yossarian says:
    31 July, 2021 at 2:35 pm

    Lord Keanne (I don’t know if you remember him). He resigned from Boris Johnson’s gov. over the proroguing of parliament scandal and he’s now one of Sturgeon’s stable of £500/hour legal stooges in Edinburgh.

    Lord Keen of Elie resigned as Advocate General for Scotland because of the Internal Market Bill, not the unlawful proroguing of WM.

    AS he’s a member of the Tory party, I doubt he’s working on behalf of Nictating Sturgeon.

  55. Captain Yossarian says:

    “PROFILE: Lord Keen of Elie QC, the tenacious lawyer who quit as Advocate General in row over Boris Johnson’s Brexit plans”

    From the P&J. Are you ever right about anything, Scott?

  56. Scott says:

    Captain Yossarian says:
    31 July, 2021 at 3:11 pm

    “PROFILE: Lord Keen of Elie QC, the tenacious lawyer who quit as Advocate General in row over Boris Johnson’s Brexit plans”

    From the P&J. Are you ever right about anything, Scott?

    Nearly always, thanks for asking.

  57. Saffron Robe says:

    Fred says:

    “…but in the mind of many heroin users – whatever the result, either a momentary numbness from injecting heroin or dying from an overdose – it doesn’t actually matter.
    Both take away the pain.”

    Very sad, but also very true Fred. When death and oblivion become preferable to life. My heart bleeds for our people and for the future.

  58. Captain Yossarian says:

    …..and I think you’ll find that’s why Parliament was prorogued.

  59. Robert Louis says:

    Excellent cartoon. The Queen can have an old thing she wants from the SNP Scottish government, including exemption from laws, but oh, no they cannot do anything about drug consumption, cos London ‘won’t let them’. PATHETIC.

    The whiny pathetic SNP says ‘oh we can’t do anything about the drug deaths, because it is reserved to Westminster’. How utterly, utterly pathetic.

    Here is what should happen; Westminster says it controls drug policy, SNP Scottish government says well, regardless their is a problem, and we will do something, and if London wants to stop us, then they will need to physically get on a train to Edinburgh to come and close the facilities down.

    You stand up to bullying thuggish tories in England, you do not bend the knee. FFS, SNP, stand up to these utter, lying, racist, corrupt, thieving Tory sh*ts from England.

    Force their hand. MAKE them close facilities or drug consumption rooms. Make them be the ones doing the damage, because right now, all I can see is a lot of handwringing and pathetic whining from the Scotgov. Quite rightly the people of Scotland are sick of it. Stop being so utterly, utterly servile.

    Catalan freedom fighter Dolores Ibarruri (La passionara), had a well known slogan ‘better to die on your feet, than live forever on your knees’. The SNP could do with some of that fighting passion – either that or a rocket up their collective lardy a*ses. Judging by their recent pathetic behaviour, the latter option might be the most effective.

  60. Scott says:

    Captain Yossarian says:
    31 July, 2021 at 3:21 pm

    …..and I think you’ll find that’s why Parliament was prorogued.

    The unlawful proroguing of WM happened in 2019.

    Lord Keen resigned in 2020 due to the Internal Market Bill.

    Happy to help.

  61. Captain Yossarian says:

    “As Advocate General, he has represented the UK Government last year when faced with legal challenges on Mr Johnson’s bid to prorogue parliament while opposition MPs hoped to debate Brexit.

    Now it is the latest controversial staging post in the Brexit process which has led to him resigning, a move which is deeply embarrassing for the prime minister.”

  62. Scott says:

    Captain Yossarian says:
    31 July, 2021 at 3:35 pm

    “Now it is the latest controversial staging post in the Brexit process which has led to him resigning, a move which is deeply embarrassing for the prime minister.”

    The latest controversial staging post being the Internal Market Bill.

  63. ScottieDog says:

    Well, the SNP has done much for domestic environmentalism, given that it’s full of British plants.

  64. Captain Yossarian says:

    @Scott – You’re an embarrassment.

  65. Scott says:

    Captain Yossarian says:
    31 July, 2021 at 3:54 pm

    @Scott – You’re an embarrassment.

    Is that you Mum?

    From his resignation letter to BJ…

    Lord Keen saying he ”cannot reconcile the #InternalMarketBill with his obligations as a law officer”

  66. James Che. says:

    Ron Maclean.
    Saffron robe.
    I will clarify that a bit more,
    It will very difficult to define a persons linked psychologically to wether they are Scottish in mind and heart even if they from another country.
    And wether only having indigenous Scots leaves a vote on independence in a sorry position if we have so many Scots such as those mentioned earlier holding a opinion that they are British and a unionist first and foremost if they think of financial rewards first.

    For me, I can see this was how the treaty of the union came about originally.
    If it was not for greed and self centredness from men living in Scotland, and deviousness in trade from the other side.
    This is where we are now with our politicians, it is not for the people they have chosen their path, but for themselves.
    A parcel of rogues still exists today,
    So how do you define loyalty of the heart and mind to your birthplace if it can be bought.and sold.
    While some from other countries outside of Scotland are proud to call themselves Scottish because of the way Scots have treated them long term. They feel Scotland is their home and have marched alongside us for independence,
    More than the snp have.

  67. James Che. says:

    Perhaps the best way to do this is by having a long time residency period for living in Scotland,
    Along with a questionnaire of some sort beforehand of any vote,

    I listen and watch “Bruce Fummey, Scotland’s history tours” who is not fully descendent Scottish on both sides of his family, but in his mind and heart he is Scottish.
    These are people we eliminate, while hanging on to the Scottish National Party who do nothing for us, and more against us.

    It does not make any sense to keep financial ("Tractor" - Ed)s voting Scotland while we have people wanting to be Scottish, enough to march along side us. And to raise their voices for an independent Scotland. Willing to put up with the rain and the abuse for a free Scotland.

  68. Breeks says:

    Ruby says:
    31 July, 2021 at 1:23 pm
    The whole of the 2014 IndyRef campaign got bogged down with discussion about EU membership and look at where we are now!

    There were two massive open goals for the SNP presented by Brexit.

    Open goal 1 was one sovereign element of the UK voting for Brexit, and the second sovereign element of the UK voting against Brexit. Thus the United Kingdom was in existential Constitutional crisis, and couldn’t survive unless one sovereign entity capitulated to the will of the other, and that in itself breaking the Union through one “equal” partner subjugating the will of the other. Independence was ours for the taking, right there, in the palm of our hand, but the dithering SNP bottled it, or more likely actively betrayed Scotland’s interests.

    The second open goal was Joanna Cherry’s challenge of Article 50, where she established that Article 50 could be revoked by a sovereign prerogative. That in my opinion was another opportunity for Scotland to drive home a Constitutional wedge, and that we should have unilaterally revoked Scotland’s Article 50 as a sovereign prerogative of Scotland, then dug our heels in.

    That second open goal might have faltered, because the UK was the recognised EU member state, not Scotland, but nevertheless, I firmly believe there could have been enough wriggle room to see Brexit bogged down and close to breaking point in a very similar Constitutional crisis as above.

    You’re correct the debate about Europe was endless and stale, and ten times worse, because Brexit was Scotland’s golden ticket to freedom, and Sturgeon threw it away. I put that down to gross incompetence and constitutional illiteracy on her part at the time, but now I am of the opinion she was quite deliberately selling Scotland out. It wasn’t craven incompetence, it was a deliberate dereliction of responsibility running away from Constitutional battle which I passionately believe Scotland would have won hands down.

  69. Republicofscotland says:

    “Consumption rooms are a red herring,”

    Shocked @ 12.02pm.

    Shocked drug consumption rooms have been in use for thirty-years in Europe, and are now, in most part, integrated into the the system surrounding the taking of, and, the leading to treatment to reduce the individuals use of drugs.,space%20where%20drug%20users%20can%20remain%20under%20observation

  70. Dan says:

    James Che. says: at 4:17 pm

    Perhaps the best way to do this is by having a long time residency period for living in Scotland.

    Best switch on your force field defences for incoming “Natavist” / “Blood & Soil” flack… 😉

    The past few articles on Wings have highlighted the multifaceted complexity inherent in Scottish politics.
    Without our own proper broadcasting services it is extremely difficult to educate and inform folk that have lived here a decent length of time, to a level they will begin to comprehend what they are actually voting for.
    Even basic shit like what powers are Reserved to Westminster, or Devolved to Holyrood go over the heads of many Scots.
    There’s even less chance of most folk who have only been here a short period of time having any clue at all about anything political.

  71. Republicofscotland says:

    “The Queen can have an old thing she wants from the SNP Scottish government, including exemption from laws”

    Robert Louis @3.23pm.

    Not only that Robert, the SNP government point blankly refuses to publish any of the things that the queen wanted to be exempt from in Scotland so we don’t actually know all the concession Sturgeon gave to the queen and on what.

    The actions of a colonial government, led by a treacherous b*stard.

  72. Dan says:

    ROS’s Guardian link archived.

  73. Ron Maclean says:

    @James Che

    I’m a coward so I’ll just say these are questions which should be open for consultation until a reasonable compromise acceptable to the majority is reached. Custom and practice in other democracies could be a good place to start. I hope we’re agreed that such matters are too important to be left to the current Scottish regime who, for example, won’t need a constitution because they’re incapable, by choice or by competence, of taking us to independence.

  74. JGedd says:

    Fred @12.25pm

    That’s a sad post. An indictment of what has happened to Scotland that it has produced generational misery resulting in our time in people so broken by life that all they can think of doing is to kill the pain. Our present Government is just as guilty in its neglect of people who grow up with no expectation of achieving anything better from life than they have already been given.

  75. Republicofscotland says:

    David Cameron ex-PM has been a busy boy, lobbying for Greensill, now its been revealed that Cameron also lobbied ministers for a pharmaceutical company that “won” large contracts.

    It pays handsomely to keep the old pals act going once you’re out of office.

  76. Dan says:

    ROS’s other Guardian link archived. Article is from April this year.

  77. Republicofscotland says:

    Panda Paws @1.30pm.

    I’m sure I read somewhere that the SNP’s new “Complaints” officer had a go at Joanna Cherry before he took this position. Cherry is very deflated that the SNP hierarchy didn’t stand up for her when she was, and probably still is taking online abuse.

    The so called “Complaints” officer, will in my view be very selective of who receives any help or rebukes.

    The SNP are finished in my book its all down hill for them, May’s elections will be their last big win I think, I’ll certainly never vote for them again, and I’m sure many other folk feel the same way, and come 2026 and we’ve still had no indyref (Sturgeon will blame Johnson, or whoever is PM) many indy minded folk will dump them like a hot potato for the alba party.

    But we can speed that process up a wee bit by voting for the Alba party in next years council elections.

  78. Republicofscotland says:

    Craig Murray will and himself over to Police Scotland tomorrow.

    “The world doesn’t work the way we were taught in school. The very worst bad guys are not locked away by the good guys who run things because the very worst bad guys are the ones who run things.”

  79. Mist001 says:

    Hard thing for Craig Murray to do BTW, voluntarily giving up ones liberty and freedom by surrendering himself to the police. It might be the most sickening thing that he’s ever had to do.

  80. Tannadice Boy says:

    I have been trying so hard to cap my frustration with the SG and the SNP. They will take it to the very end. Meanwhile I have been cheering myself up by watching Scottish contributors to the Olympic effort Duncan Scott et al. Real Scotsmen and Scotswomen. Made me wonder in journalistic terms is Stu worthy of a Gold Medal?. Definitely for me.

  81. Ruby says:

    Mist001 says:
    31 July, 2021 at 2:23 pm
    @ Ruby

    So your idea is ‘Right. We have independence. What do we do now?’

    Nobody knows what money they’re going to use, nobody knows what imports and exports they have, nobody even knows where their next meal is coming from.

    Your idea sounds great.


    This debate you want about currency will it be a debate about what currency an iScotland will use long term or just during a transition period?

    Does anyone know what imports & exports Scotland currently has?

    What kind of discussion would you want regarding where the next meal is coming from. Would this involve talk of supermarkets leaving Scotland?

    Could it be you would like the debate bogged down with all of the above because you don’t have a good enough argument for remaining in the Union.

    Talking about currency, EU membership, borders, imports/exports just gives Unionist a means to bog down the debate.

    NB The last IndyRef debate involved a hell of a lot of talk about EU membership and look at where we are now.

    I think the debate should be kept simple.

    The only thing that needs to be explained is what being an independent country means for those who don’t understand the term.

    Do you understand the term Mist001?

  82. Mist001 says:

    @ Ruby

    There won’t be any debate about EU membership because it’s meaningless now. Certainly, a debate could be held after independence about whether Scotland should or shouldn’t join the EU but before independence, it’s meaningless.

    To boil it down to basics for you, imagine the situation in the following terms. One day, Scotland is part of the UK and all it’s mechanisms and whatnot, 24 hours later, Scotland is independent and is unable to rely on the rUK and it’s mechanisms and whatnot.

    In order to operate, an independent Scotland HAS to know what they’re starting with and there’s no getting away from the fact that that entails making plans beforehand of which as I have pointed out numerous times, there are none. Zero.

    So one day, Scotland is part of the UK and the next day, it’s independent and they don’t know what currency they’re going to be using?

    Stop making me laugh because this seriously isn’t funny.

    The closest that Scotland has ever come to having a plan post independence was the Growth Commission Report and look how well that went down.

    In fact, that might be why there have been no plans made since then because it scared them shitless as in ‘Oh! We can’t sell THAT to the voters!’

    Well, a pre-independent Scotland DOES need a plan to sell to the voters however many excuses you want to make for there not being one.

  83. Ruby says:

    Has ‘Sinister Dave’ been banned?

  84. robertknight says:


    Surely to vote in Scotland you should be one of those individuals who have an ‘S’ prefix on your tax code.

    If not, jog on…

    Where you were born doesn’t/shouldn’t come into it.

  85. Ruby says:

    Mist001 says:
    31 July, 2021 at 5:54 pm
    @ Ruby

    To boil it down to basics for you, imagine the situation in the following terms. One day, Scotland is part of the UK and all it’s mechanisms and whatnot, 24 hours later, Scotland is independent and is unable to rely on the rUK and it’s mechanisms and whatnot.

    Can you give some examples of what you mean by mechanisms and whatnot?

    You keep avoiding my questions. I asked if you wanted the currency debate to involve what currency iScotland would use long term or just during a transition period.

  86. Ruby says:

    Mist001 says:
    31 July, 2021 at 5:54 pm
    @ Ruby

    There won’t be any debate about EU membership because it’s meaningless now.


    You are a hoot!

  87. Mia says:

    “Where you were born doesn’t/shouldn’t come into it”

    I couldn’t disagree more. For every single other country in the world where you were born, where your parents were born and how longer you have lived in the country “does come into it” as a fundamental part of your citizenship as “it does come into it” for every other colony of the British state that is not Scotland.

    Why should Scotland be the exception?

    Just because it has the misfortune of being one of the two colonies that share an island with England and if you set the ancestry at the root of nationhood would leave England powerless to gerrymander to its own advantage and to the detriment of the people of Scotland every election and every referendum that the people of Scotland chooses to have?

    Ancestry is a very important part of a nation. Pretending that it does not not only is nonsense. It is a way of undermining nationhood and sense of belonging.

    You can get an S code after working for a week in Scotland. Sorry that should never be enough to get you a vote in a referendum for the self determination of a country. Vote should be given only to those who have Scots ancestry or have naturalised as Scots and sworn allegiance and commitment to Scotland.

    What kind of commitment to Scotland have those working in the MoD or in the oil rigs that come from the rUK? What kind of commitment to Scotland did all those who had a holiday home in Scotland in 2014 and that voted no because they thought that independence of Scotland might have meant for them to have to show a passport to come to their holiday homes? What kind of commitment have those foreign students that come to university for a few years with no intention to remain in Scotland after that? What kind of commitment to Scotland have those people coming from down south that see Scotland as the backyard of England and that therefore should be run by England’s politicians they choose?

    Why should those who have no ancestry links, no commitment and no real attachment to Scotland as a nation be given a vote?

    For as long as the political fraud persists in leaving the franchise wide open to abuse and to direct interference by the British state, the term “referendum on Scottish independence” is an oxymoron, because such franchise will ensure independence will always be the losing option.

    I encourage you to take a close look at the census and look at how the population of native Scots, the natural yes voters, is being proportionally reduced year after year after year. To give you an example, from 2001 to 2011 over the total population in Scotland increased by well over 200,000 people. Of those, only 1,484 were born in Scotland. How long this trend has been going on goodness knows.

    The main reason to have a referendum on independence is so the native Scots can exercise their self determination. If you use a franchise to frustrate that self determination, then the referendum itself becomes a tool to frustrate independence rather than to give a chance to choose it.

  88. Saffron Robe says:

    James Che, I’m not sure I want to get bogged down in a discussion regarding the franchise because there is no easy answer, but my suggestion would be, and it is only a suggestion, is that anyone born in Scotland and currently residing here should be able to vote in national elections and referenda.

  89. stonefree says:

    @ panda paws at 1:30 pm

    “Ps the new complaints officer also thinks if you have ever written for or even shared WOS, you should be kicked out the SNP!”
    I have said this about a dozen times the local convener said that posting in the Guardian/Times and Wos was NOT allowed and that was in 2015

  90. Robert Graham says:


    And just for a Laugh

    I had to read it again just to make sure I wasn’t seeing things anyway word for word

    Now that Nicola Sturgeon is only months away from pulling the trigger on a Independence referendum , the Wings over Alba party and their unionist mates have joined forces .

    FFS and that was posted apparently by a Adult on the Doging Site or the Rainbow Alliance as it’s often referred to amongst others PayPal is another one .

    Well Dr Jim the perpetrator of this lord of absolute biodegradable shite here is a prediction you and all the other arse wipes on that perverted site will be dead before Sturgeon fires anything she follows Bawjaws orders to the fkn letter because she works for the English Establishment .

  91. Gary45% says:

    Makes total sense, if you live here, work, pay taxes, claim benefits in Scotland you get to vote in an Indy Ref.
    As you say, “if not, jog on.”
    As for the English moaning about not getting to vote as the UK will be changing, the rest of the EU never got a say in Brexit, which changed the EU.

  92. Andy Ellis says:

    @ Mia 6.51 pm

    I see your disingenuous nativist narrative has leaked on to this thread too now? It was comprehensively demonstrated to you on previous threads that most recent independence referendums have used residence rather than birth criteria to decide the franchise. You and other regressive nationalists don’t feel we can convince enough “native born” Scots (and more “new Scots”) to change their minds and support independence. You therefore advocate abandoning one of the central and most positive aspects of the civic nationalism the vast majority of voters support because of a fit of pique that we lost in 2014.

    Rather than “do the work” and convince the 80% of Scots who were born here to deliver independence, you and other ethnic nationalists want to either restrict the franchise to native born Scots (but usually to exclude born Scots who now live abroad…), or impose residence criteria which are unprecedented in virtually ANY other recent independence referendum. Most of those supporting the nativist narrative appear to favour 10 years or more as a qualifying period.

    There is zero evidence that your proposed policy has any high level support in the SNP, Greens or Alba. It obviously has some resonance for a small group of assorted cranks and fringe folk who are vocal here, but again you’ve shown no evidence whatsoever that it commands significant support in the wider movement.

    The facts don’t change: you’re advocating a regressive, politically damaging policy change which is unprecedented in any other recent independence referendums and which you can show no real demand for. Nobody is trying to shit you or the other nativists down, or say this can’t be discussed: we are however pointing out that it’s still the case that the cat majority aren’t buying the covert ( and sadly sometimes overt) blood and soil schtick, anymore than most buy the politically brain dead “we wuz robbed by the furriners” or “Scotland is a colony” mantra.

  93. Tannadice Boy says:

    robertknight 6:08pm
    I would agree with that, the S prefix is everything. I haven’t got rid of that yet, although I believe my taxes are being misappropriated. I will get there soon.

  94. Ruby says:

    Way back before the 2014 IndyRef there was a debate at Westminster re the franchise etc for the IndyRef.

    Does anyone remember that?

    I thought it would be interesting to watch that debate again.

    Trying to find it on Parliament TV. Can anyone help?

    Mark Lazarowicz spoke in the debate.

  95. Andy Ellis says:

    @Ruby 8.26 pm

    As Rev Stu said in his Twitter thread responding to the nativist clapping seals, what is it that’s supposed to have changed though, and why is it an issue now? Apart from a few on the fringe punting the “Scotland as colony” narrative are we really saying we want to throw the baby of civic nationalism out with the nativist bath water?

    The reason the debate was had and settled before 2014 was that it was the pragmatic, progressive solution which offended fewest and had the advantage of wrong footing the British nationalists. They’d have loved to label the Scottish movement as just the same old nasty nationalism as we saw / see elsewhere in Europe, whether in the Front National in France, Law & Justice in Poland or Jobbik in Hungary. Having a broad residence based franchise allowed us to claim the moral and political high ground.

    Now we have a small cadre of fringe figures who want us to do a volte face because they’ve convinced themselves that #indyref1 was somehow “stolen” by non native Scots who for the most part voted “No”. They conveniently ignore the fact that native born Scots could easily swamp any “incomer” vote, the votes it could lose the movement and the truly appalling political and social optics of making the case for and enacting a restriction of the franchise which none of them can show commands any real support.

    This is just an argument for the movement shooting itself in the right foot to match the fact the SNP already blew the left foot off in its steadfast determination to drive the vibrant, joyous, multifarious civic nationalist jamboree up a political cul de sac of neo liberal gradualism and misogynistic, sophomoric Woko Haram extremism.

  96. Captain Yossarian says:

    “When I communicate, and I apologise if this is an error, I kind of communicate at a level where I assume a certain level of intelligence on the part of people listening to me”…..from Guido Fawkes. I call-in there from time to time and this was one of his favorites last week. It was one of mine too.

  97. Andy Ellis says:

    @Captain Yossarian 8.49 pm

    The same level of intelligence that was evident in many of Guido’s most ardent supporters when they pandered to the Tory brexiteer moon howlers over decades and voted for BoJo to become PM? 😉

  98. Hatuey says:

    See if you’re a “sir” and you do the gender switcheroo thing, do you automatically become a “lady”?

    This Hearts-Celtic game is dire. How can people watch games like this? Celtic look really crap. No offence intended, I’d prefer to see Celtic win the league than Rangers, they just look very amateurish. What the hell happened to Celtic?

    Back to Black Summer and the zombies…

  99. Tannadice Boy says:

    Captain Yossarian 8:49pm
    It’s never been a question of intelligence NS has a limited life experience. So we are gaming with the future of the Scottish people. She would have a fight in an empty house. I knew she was a wrong un in 2015. It was there for all to see. Unfortunately the Scottish people will need to endure hardship before they understand.

  100. Captain Yossarian says:

    @Andy – Bloggers in general are the media outlet that many politicians fear the most because they are the least predictable. They cannot be managed and that’s what we are finding here too. Folk like to look in to see what is going-on as you won’t find that commentry in the press. WoS is overtly a pro-independence blogger and he should find life quite straightforward in SNP Scotland, shouldn’t he?

  101. Dan says:

    @ Breeks (if you’re reading and not busy searching for long range comms…)

    It’s probably best you sit down and not have anything throwable near you before clicking. 😉

  102. vlad (not that one) says:

    @Ruby 20:26

    Way back before the 2014 IndyRef there was a debate at Westminster re the franchise etc for the IndyRef.

    This, perhaps?

    h t t p s ://

  103. Ruby says:

    Andy Ellis says:
    Now we have a small cadre of fringe figures who want us to do a volte face because they’ve convinced themselves that #indyref1 was somehow “stolen” by non native Scots who for the most part voted “No”

    There seem to be a few fringe groups popping up! Could it be it’s because people are bored?

    I remember watching the debate about the franchise and in the end I thought they came to a good decision.

    Should we end up having a discussion about the franchise I would have to go back and refresh my memory hence the reason I was trying to track down the Westminster debate.

    If the choice is between discussing 1. Covid vaccines, 2. Sinking schools 3. The Indy Ref franchise I would choose option 3

  104. Scott says:

    Ruby says:
    31 July, 2021 at 8:26 pm

    Way back before the 2014 IndyRef there was a debate at Westminster re the franchise etc for the IndyRef.

    Does anyone remember that?

    Constitutional Law debate, 15th January 2013

    Hansard version –

    Parliament TV doesn’t seem to have the debate available to watch

  105. Dan says:

    @ Ruby at 9.30pm

    We could add in discussion about using an election as a plebiscite…

    Oh, scrub that, the system seems stuck in a perpetual carrot dangling loop.
    Has anyone tried switching the SNP off and on again?

  106. crazycat says:

    @ Andy Ellis at 8.54

    If you haven’t read the Guido Fawkes article to which Captain Yossarian was referring, it’s this one:

    It’s very short, so won’t take you long.

  107. Ruby says:

    Thanks Scott & Vlad. That is exactly what I was looking for.

  108. Ruby says:

    Some late night Saturday entertainment:

    Starts at 12:46:00


  109. Pixywine says:

    The baby of “civic nationalism” has drowned. Very careless.

  110. Pixywine says:

    The Guardian is being funded by Bill Gates. Gates is openly bribing everyone who matters to his business interests.
    I keep saying follow the money.

  111. Scott says:

    Ruby says:
    31 July, 2021 at 10:34 pm

    Some late night Saturday entertainment:

    Thank you for the video link.

  112. shug says:

    when are we going to start seeing people “out her” and her weakness

    if you dont call indyref 2 soon the whatsapp messages hit the screens

    I am sure there are a few PC plodds have a tail or two about the “get Salmond” investigation

    Or what about Murrell and his wee taste

  113. And Spouse says:

    I don’t want Indy with this leadership. But I do want Indy. I want free from the empire old boy. Can history tell us how to get set free

  114. wull says:

    If it is true, as someone says above, that Mike Russell, the SNP’s erstwhile Minister for the Constitution (or something like that), is now arguing that we have to get independence and only then start thinking about what the content of the constitution will, what does it mean?

    In the first place, it means he did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING when he was Minister and/or Spokesperson for the Constitution, during the last Holyrood Parliament.

    Or, if he did do some work on his brief (for instance, initiate some research on the subject, or prepare some proposals for further discussion), he is now saying all that work should be binned. Presumably, that means he has been ordered from on high (you know who) to ditch it. And, with all the backbone of a jellyfish, he has meekly acquiesced and obeyed.

    If my memory serves me right, he is fully aware of the key notion of the sovereignty of the people, and at one time wrote and spoke quite eloquently on the subject. I can only presume that he has been told to forget it. If so, his compliance, with full knowledge and consent, is a complete disgrace.

    It indicates something else as well. The SNP claims to be the only possible vehicle for gaining independence (and deliberately attacks, undermines and sets out to liquidate any other organisation that has the same objective, seeing it as a competitor rather than a friend). If the SNP ever were to get a referendum, its campaign would include the following: ‘this is not the time to think about a future constitution: we’ll talk about that afterwards, once the referendum is won.’

    And that means only one thing: if ‘we, the SNP’ initiate and win the referendum then ‘we, the SNP’ will get to write the new Scottish Constitution. And ‘we, the SNP’ will put into that constitution whatever we want to put into it. While you – the people or whatever you call yourselves – will just have to suck it up.

    Poor Scotland! Attacked from without and ripped apart from within, torn to shreds by marauding lions from below and vultures from on high. What does this show? Partly that it was ever thus. But, above all, it shows what a dangerous idea the sovereignty of the people actually is. It is a huge threat to all the chancers who ever were, who generation after generation seize power under false pretences. It doesn’t make any difference if they are of the right or of the left, and it doesn’t matter however much they mouth the words ‘sovereignty of the people’ and pay it lip service. The truth is that these are words, this is a concept that they absolutely cannot stand. They hate it with all their guts.

    That is the hate crime they all commit. And, you know what? It is a specifically Scottish idea. It came to birth right here, and was articulated not just as a clear political concept but as the foundation of all governmental authority, by Scots, in and for Scotland. It is what brought Robert Bruce legitimately to the throne, his rule being justified on those specific grounds in a way that had never before been so clearly formulated and, indeed, acted upon.

    This is the key Scottish doctrine that, even by itself, makes the Scottish difference. And Nicola Sturgeon knows nothing of it, except that she hates it with all her soul. As do all those who roll over in front of her, in abject submission and lapdog adoration.

    When is someone in the SNP going finally to stand up?

  115. Gary45% says:

    The moon is made of cheese.

  116. Gary45% says:

    oops Pixywhine

  117. Captain Yossarian says:

    @Wull – very well written.

  118. Meg merrilees says:

    Looks like there is an article about Craic Murray in the Sunday Times today. Can’t access it though owing to pay wall.

  119. Mia says:

    “the baby of civic nationalism”

    Right. So now because the lead balloon of “civic nationalism”, a posh name to polish the turd of deliberately denying the Scots the importance of ancestry in the matter of citizenship and nationhood, refuses to go up on its own, along comes the word “baby” to make the massive block of lead look innocent.

    Gaslighting where there ever was one.

    So, if not even the word “baby” manages to put the lead turd on the air, what will be next? calling us racists for demanding a fair franchise?
    Civic terrorists?
    Extremist nationalists seeking radical independence?

    So, what is exactly “civic” about telling the people of Scotland that you are “giving” them a chance to exercise their right to self determination when in reality what you are doing is deliberately denying them one by frustrating the chances of independence ever win?

    Isn’t that more akin to fraud than to civicism?

  120. crazycat says:

    @ Meg merrilees at 1.16

  121. crazycat says:

    @ Meg merrilees


    I got round the paywall as follows:
    I googled “sunday times 01 August 2021 craig murray”

    The first answer looked likely to be the right article; I right-clicked the title and chose “copy link address”.

    I pasted that into and the article had been archived an hour previously. I was then able to copy the archive link here.

    All that took about 2 minutes.

  122. Scott says:

    Mia says:
    1 August, 2021 at 1:38 am

    “the baby of civic nationalism”

    So, if not even the word “baby” manages to put the lead turd on the air, what will be next? calling us racists for demanding a fair franchise?

    A fair franchise is allowing those legally on the electoral register the right to vote.

    The idea that only Scots, no matter where they are in the world, should get a vote is absurd.

  123. Pixywine says:

    Gary45. You should have some Moon on toast for your breakfast you ignorant dick head.

  124. Shocked says:

    Aye Scott, maybe it is but she disposed it one day a week, curiously the same as the pharmacy round the corner from my old office in the west end of Edinburgh that was queued out the door on a Thursday.

  125. Dorothy Devine says:

    Dan , the SNP have a COMPLIANT officer not a COMPLAINTS officer – that’s the mistake we all made.

  126. Andy Ellis says:

    @Mia 1.38 am

    The more you post, the less rational about this matter you become and the more you expose yourself as an ethnic nationalist with what are essentially blood and soil views, however much you try to disown the epithet. All through this debate you have singularly failed to make a convincing case.

    First you and your nativist claque insisted Scots were mad to have an open, residence based franchise and asserted that nobody else did so. When evidence was produced that in fact virtually every recent independence referendum used such a franchise, you tried to move the goal posts and argue that voting in an independence referendum should be subject to naturalisation criteria used for voting in already independent countries.

    When it was pointed out that was a false comparison (and again that virtually none of the recent referendums used naturalisation criteria or any hurdle more than 24 months residence) you again changed tack to bolster what passes for your argument to concentrate on the demographic tidal wave you insist will deny us independence. If that isn’t the antithesis of civic nationalism I don’t know what is. Aligning yourself with regressive opponents of immigration (which most of us can see is a necessity in a country with a low birth rate and ageing population: who is it you think is going to pay the taxes and provide services in future exactly?) is an even worse look than abandoning a residence based franchise.

    It’s instructive that there is a strong correlation between nativist franchise change proponents, anti vaxxers and (it is now pretty obvious) opponents of immigration in the name of keeping Scotland for “real” Scots. If the movement as a whole were to support your regressive policies it would be committing electoral suicide. More importantly it’s morally and socially repugnant. Good luck constructing a pro independence majority on that basis!

  127. Dan says:

    Indeed Dorothy.

    He seems to tick all the boxes complying with current SNP doctrine, as the screenshot in Grousebeater’s tweet captures.

    Have there been any studies to prove if this year’s scorchio temperatures are actually caused by global warming, or are they solely down to the amount of skipfires the SNP has lit and continues to stoke.

  128. Andy Ellis says:

    @Scott 3.00 am

    Interesting isn’t it that all these nativists who are so keen to keep Scotland for the pure bloods and exclude all the muggles aren’t so keen on including Scots born, or their children (or grandchildren) in the diaspora are they? Of course it’s nothing to do with the fact that they’d probably be overwhelmingly unionist. It’s almost as if their argument was logically and politically flawed? 🙂

  129. Breeks says:

    Listen to this clown Pete Wishart.

    “Blocked for the 5th time from the ‘all’. Their new leadership has badly let down what was an essential part of the movement. They have now become an embarrassment. They threw their lot behind the 1.7% that voted for Alba. They will have to be replaced.

    Replaced eh? The cheek of the man. You want a subservient puppet leadership cast in your own image don’t you Wishart? To grovel at your feet the way you grovel in Westminster before your superiors and demean Scotland in the process?

    “They’ve” now become an embarrassment??? Self awareness clearly not the SNP’s strong suit.

    “We ask not your counsels or your arms.
    Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
    May your chains set lightly upon you,
    and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”

  130. Dorothy Devine says:

    Dan , that’s the kind of cretin that should not be in a position of power or any position for that matter.

    So glad I have left the SNP so sorry I voted SNP and ALBA in line with Alex Salmond’s idea of indy super majority.

    I regret that , I would rather have just voted ALBA on the list and spoilt the other.

  131. Breeks says:

    Andy Ellis says:
    1 August, 2021 at 8:51 am
    @Scott 3.00 am

    Interesting isn’t it that all these nativists who are so keen to keep Scotland for the pure bloods and exclude all the muggles aren’t so keen on including Scots born, or their children (or grandchildren) in the diaspora are they?

    Sorry Andy, you’re sounding like an idiot. The issue of voter franchise is complex, important with international ramifications and needs mature debate. If you want to be taken seriously, drop puerile name calling and ridicule. This isn’t the SNP.

  132. Andy Ellis says:

    @ Breeks and Dorothy

    Wishart and his ilk forget that Alba has several years to establish itself, at a time when the SNP is mired in corruption allegations, making appalling politically tin eared appointments like their new Complaints Officer and apparently seeing its membership and activist base hollowed out.

    Come the next election, Alba should be much more firmly bedded in. That will be the time to wipe the smirk of the faces of the gradualists and troughers in the SNP. Selective political decapitation of some of the worst SNP offenders by standing candidates against them should be a priority next time. After all, if the Greens can justify standing in Holyrood constituencies so can Alba.

    It’s down to Alba and new members to make the case and ensure they can attract enough support to hold the balance of power. That’s eminently achievable given the SNPs direction of travel. In so many cases it isn’t even that hard in policy terms: we just have to point at what a bourach the SNP have made of so many issues and highlight a more rational alternative, whether in drugs policy, land reform, education, pandemic response, transport and infrastructure, environment and energy policy. The list is a long one. It’s not difficult to point out the manifest failures of the gradualists and Growth Commission grey suits to propose let alone convince the broader population of a new way of doing things.

    The best response to cultists like Wishart is to ignore than and look forward to his Portillo moment in future elections.

  133. Andy Ellis says:

    @ Breeks

    If people don’t want to be called out for being regressive nativists, perhaps they shouldn’t advance regressive nativist policies? Just a thought…

    Like Mia you’re coming up short actually addressing the point made. Stun us with another.

  134. Ruby says:

    I totally disagree with Alex Neil.

    This guy is the perfect choice for the New SNP.

  135. Mia says:

    “Interesting isn’t it that all these nativists who are so keen to keep Scotland for the pure bloods and exclude all the muggles aren’t so keen on including Scots born, or their children (or grandchildren) in the diaspora are they?”

    I am not quite sure what you mean with the word “nativists” and I wonder if it is yet another or your made up, deflecting “terminologies” such as your “civic nationalism”.

    But coming back to the matter about the franchise, evidently the issue is complex enough to deserves thorough study and discussion.

    For instance, if you look at the UK rules for citizenship, the same that for most countries around the world, ancestry is at the center of it, as it should be. In line with this, citizenship is normally passed down one generation, from parent to children born outside the UK, but not automatically passed down when it is two generations, from grandparent to grandchildren.

    But you have to request that citizenship, it is not assumed.

    Personally I would have no problem whatsoever if Scotland’s citizenship followed the same rules as the UK in that respect. The rest of the people interested in debating this matter can express their own valid views.

    Evidently, to apply such rule Scotland needs official representation in the form of something like consulates around the world. In my opinion, these consulates should also be the places where the diaspora that is elegible for Scottish citizenship would go to formally request that citizenship, and swear allegiance to Scotland, and also is where they would go to request participation in Scotland’s referendum if they are eligible and to cast their vote. Just like other countries around the world do with their own diaspora.

    Needless to say that, while I acknowledge it is more stringent than the rules for other countries around the world, I have no problem either with Scotland’s citizenship adopting the UK franchise rule whereby citizens who have lived outwith the UK for 15 years or more lose their right to vote in UK elections/referendums. I think Scotland’s franchise should have the same rule as I think it is fair.

    Like with other countries around the world, I think if you are born outwith Scotland and your parent has Scottish citizenship, you have to request the citizenship and swear allegiance to Scotland, you should not get it automatically.

    As you can see, differently to you, who appears to be desperate for shutting down the debate on this matter, I do think this is an issue of great importance, that is at the core of the preservation of nationhood and that therefore that deserves far more discussion, study and attention than the political fraud and her minions, in their desperate quest to derail Scotland’s independence to get a pat in the back from the British establishment grandees, are willing to offer.

  136. Pixywine says:

    I am sickened by the Tyranny on the loose in Holyrood. Abolishing juries in sex case trials will mean Alec Salmond may have to face trial again. Watch out for that one. Sturgeon and her crew are not interested in justice. Their aims are political.In the past five years this country Scotland has been turned into a dark little shit hole dictatorship. Sturgeon is the most illiberal little Fascist in sheep’s clothing since Harold Shipman. We experience History being repeated by idiots in Office. Stone cold fucking fool politicians have sold freedom down the river. March 2020 was the final screw in the coffin of Liberty. Now it only gets worse. I don’t want to believe we have slid into Dictatorship but we have. Most politicians will go along with the insane “wokery” of political witch trials. Remember “go woke go broke” if Dr Who is anything to go by.

  137. Pixywine says:

    Mia. For Nativist read Fascist. It’s political slander.

  138. Robert Graham says:

    A bit o/t

    Best wishes to Craig who is presenting himself for incarceration round about now.

    A message to Sturgeon I hope you choke on your breakfast this morning dear because we all know you would be dancing in the street if it had been your intended target Alex Salmond it’s just too bad a jury with a majority of honest Women spoiled your plan .

    A message to Alex no more Mr Nice Guy go for the fkrs throats both of them in Bute House ( for the time being ) Aye it will come to a end Dear and we will remember .

  139. Pixywine says:

    Andy. This will probably be news to you but ALL nationalism is essentially “blood and soil”. If it wasn’t there would be no countries. Get real. You’ll talk round the houses all day and all night but get nowhere. You’re another twopenny ha penny midwit leftist who fancies himself as an intellectual. You are endlessly fascinated by race beyond what is good for any of us.

  140. Ruby says:

    Sorry to say this crazycat after you have gone to the effort of archiving the Times article.

    The article is not worth reading.

    Mike Russell has absolutely nothing of interest to say. He’s just being a good little boy doing what she/her wants him to do.

    Tom’s link on the other hand definitely is.

  141. Breeks says:

    Dorothy Devine says:
    1 August, 2021 at 8:57 am

    So glad I have left the SNP so sorry I voted SNP and ALBA in line with Alex Salmond’s idea of indy super majority.

    I regret that , I would rather have just voted ALBA on the list and spoilt the other.

    I know the feeling Dorothy, but the weakness in strategy was the stupidity of Sturgeon’s SNP, not the the strategy of a List Party supporting an Independence Party front runner. If Independence isn’t achieved meantime, the whole List Party debate is already counting down to resurrect itself for the next Holyrood elections.

    And so it should. It is a sound strategy. We are suffering another Parliament of political stalemate and atrophy because we didn’t embrace the strategy. When it comes to it, (if it comes to it), next Holyrood Elections might see the SNP having come to its senses and purged itself of charlatans and feckless leadership, and be ready to embrace and encourage the tactical principle of a List Party. Or, maybe we’ll see ALBA as the main Independence Party and whatever’s left of the rump SNP competing for list seats… and the same List Party strategy will still be sound.

    I hope it won’t come to that. I hope we are much more inventive than that, and find a better way to secure Scottish Independence, and achieve it much sooner.

    I hope in fact we adopt a Constitutional Approach which short circuits domestic politics and raises the stakes to International status and International Laws where Scotland’s Legal Constitutional status will I think be properly respected and legal distinctions will actually matter, unlike UK domestic legislation where Scotland’s Constitutional status is completely ignored.

    If Holyrood is thus so absolutely determined to sacrifice Scotland’s Constitutional rights as a Nation upon the altar of domestic UK legislation where Scotland is regarded as little more than a parish, then Holyrood to my mind is writing it’s own ticket to obscurity and irrelevance, and the Office of First Minister is reduced to the mere mouthpiece of a Vichy Style puppet government.

    It is my conclusion that ALBA is by far the smarter Party with much greater strategic acumen. ALBA understands the domesticated subservient nature of Holyrood much better than Sturgeon does.

    Unlike the SNP which has embraced it’s roll as Vichy Parish Council, I firmly believe should ALBA ever secure a roll for itself in Holyrood, it would be the proverbial wolf in sheep’s clothing, using / abusing Devolution to win Independence. But ALBA has much greater ambitions to resurrect Scotland’s Constitutional Rights amongst Nations internationally. That’s a whole higher plane of political activity.

    Scotland’s Independence will ultimately be established when there is International Recognition for Scotland’s Sovereignty and Sovereign Constitution. This interminable cycle of playing “UK” games, following their rules to plot a terminal crisis for the UK under domestic UK legislation the UK can rewrite at random… is going to take forever and will never lead Scotland to the door marked Exit.

    I think the big risk facing ALBA, their biggest temptation, will be pressure and expectation that it fashions itself as an “alternative” party that is content to fight for representation on the Vichy Parish Council. ALBA has to stay “Big” if you follow me.

    ALBA must not get bogged down fighting both Unionist Party and SNP issues in the sandbox of Holyrood. ALBA must embrace Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty and defend it’s principles to the death, not just in the UK but internationally, at the UN and Council of Europe.

    Back at the beginning, do you remember Alex Salmond talking about the Declaration of Arbroath and making special emphasis of the “Community of the Realm”? The Community of the Realm IS the community of sovereign Scottish people as defined by the 1320 Declaration of Arbroath.. the rudimentary Constitution of our Nation that was recognised in its day.

    The irony that is lost on some, is that we are arguing about a voters franchise for a token referendum held under oppressive domestic UK constraints and interference, when the argument is essentially our Sovereign Nation’s prerogative to determine who actually populates this “Community of the Realm”.

    In terms of legal pedantry, we might actually find the detail of a modern voters franchise in 21st Century Scotland NOT being determined either by Westminster legislation OR International Law, but instead being determined by a 14th Century definition of national citizenship, and what was meant back in 1320 by the “Community of the Realm” and who qualified for membership of it.

  142. Ruby says:

    The only reason the franchise is an issue if because current support for independence is too low.

    The franchise/the question seems to be an even bigger issue amongst Unionists.

    Increase support for independence and the issue of the franchise will disappear.

    However it will then increase on the Unionist side.

  143. Footsoldier says:

    As a member of the SNP for over 50 years, I am reluctant to leave and still hope for change. Reading today’s Sunday National, I am pushed to the limit with references to the “independence unit” within the SNP and the appointment of Ricky Taylor as Complaints Officer.

    An independence party reduced to an independence unit? The party has been completely destroyed. Perhaps George Robertson was right “Devolution will kill Nationalism stone dead”.

  144. Hatuey says:

    There’s a pretty straightforward reason for smart people not wanting anything to do with nationalism. And the reason is that nation states are essentially abstract ideas, accidents of human stupidity and historical forces.

    In theory it should be difficult to muster support under nationalist banners, after all it doesn’t take much intelligence to see the gaping flaws in the idea, but here again history dealt us another of its cruel hands…

    Nationalism replaced sovereign monarchism as a basis for organising people and geographical areas. It’s only slightly less stupid.

    Both systems have caused untold carnage, wars, and injustices. Across the world of stupid people today you will find many that bow to both of these silly ideas at the same time — they go hand in hand, along with other stupid ideas like race, religion, and culture. That tells you a lot.

    In science there’s no such thing as a race. Actually, in scientific terms, there’s really no such thing as a even species. None of it makes sense because we, as well as the animals and plants, are all hybrid mongrels in genetic terms.

    Yes, nation states exist and we are forced to live in them and grapple with the problems they cause, the arguments on this blog lately serving as good examples. But let’s not pretend any of us chose to be Scottish, or white, or speak English, or that others chose not to be. It’s all crap.

  145. Captain Yossarian says:

    Craig Murray: “Astonishingly, over 13,000 individuals from over 120 countries have contributed to the legal defence fund. People all over the world value freedom and realise the terrible precedents established by this case must be overturned.”

    I don’t know about others, but this makes me ashamed to be Scottish and live under this rancid Holyrood fandango.

  146. Gary45% says:

    What happened to your liberty in March2020?
    Did you lose the keys to your spaceship, or did you lose your hemp sandals and kaftan?

  147. @Captain Yossarian,

    ` this makes me ashamed to be Scottish`,

    no offence but i assumed you wern`t Scottish but either English or identified as British.

  148. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Craig Murray’s final blog, until at least the end of this year.

    Just watched a stuttery live feed of him outside the police station, with his wife and children. Sounds like a smallish crowd present.

    What a shameful episode this continues to be.

  149. Captain Yossarian says:

    Scot – you are one of those on this site that is somehow attracted to personal attack on anyone that you think doesn’t share your views. I was born in a Glasgow tenement to Scottish parents. Not that that matters much.

  150. Effigy says:

    Wonderful Chris!

    If SNP had one pair of balls between them, we would declare
    Drugs policies to be devolved and whatever the hell we need to
    reduce the overdose deaths dramatically.

    You might know that drink and drug related deaths are high in countries
    that have had their lands and lives stolen by others
    The native Americans, Australians and New Zealander’s stand out just like Scotland.

    There it is. Independence, one pair of balls and a drugs policy fully controlled by Scotland.

    The length of time SNP have been in office, their lack of transparency, their corruption in the Salmond stitch up, corruption of the police and legal system, failure in eduction and drug enforcement guarantees they are out on their arses at the next election.

  151. Republicofscotland says:

    Dan @9.35pm.

    Thanks Dan for that link, I think its a milestone, a milestone that should open the eyes of those who still think Sturgeon/SNP will deliver an indyref, its not going to happen.

  152. Andy Ellis says:

    @ Pixywine 9.56 am

    Don’t be ridiculous. From memory you’re one of the zoomers on previous threads who wasn’t averse to dropping the “c” bomb on those who disagreed with you. I’m far from obsessed with race, but then I’m not the one advocating blood and soil nationalism. If you lack the wit to distinguish between civic nationalism and blood and soil nationalism like that being touted by the nativist fringe nutters soiling this site, I can’t really help you. The same goes for controversialists like Mia who purport not to understand what “nativist” means in this context.

    We are rightly suspicious of those with an unhealthy interest in whether you’re a real Scot or not. In its own way it’s no different to sectarian bigots who are keen to know what school you went to or what football club you support.

    We’re all still waiting on you and the other nativists to justify your stance, and to rebut the basic points made by Rev Stu at the very beginning of these exchanges in his Twitter thread which comprehensively rubbished the idea. One might almost suspect it’s because it isn’t possible and it’s just not possible to kill a bad idea.

  153. Jack Murphy says:

    At noon TODAY:

    “At Noon this Sunday Through A Scottish Prism returns with your host Roddy MacLeod joined by Iain Lawson and Mark Hirst to discuss the jailing of Craig Murray”

  154. Breeks says:

    Is Scottish Prism playing? I’m just getting a minute or so intro… then ends.

  155. Breeks says:

    Hello hello. Anybody seeing this? Or am I in the Bermuda Triangle of Internet yet again?

  156. Dan says:

    @ Hatuey at 10.42pm

    Well, as a mere coagulation of atomic space dust communicating to another in this current time dimension and local area of what is the the universal petri dish.
    I put it to you that there is no point getting bogged down arguing and being triggered over certain words.

    “The System” is crude and rudimentary and uses terms such as continents, countries, regions, trading blocks, which all have borders to define and designate certain areas on the planet.
    Most of these were developed by the interactions of previous generations of coagulations of atomic space dust, whose needs and wonts are now out of date as they are not aligned with ours as we move through this current passage of time. And importantly, many of these archaic constraints that hold us like rats in a cage are no longer required as the entities that once created them have degraded and returned to being space compost.

    All we are ultimately endeavouring to do is have more local autonomy, empowering us to better serve our own unique astral location’s needs and wonts in this time.
    Those specific needs and wonts take time to learn, and especially as telly broadcasting which is still unfortunately watched by many less aware lifeforms here, is generated from another astral location so far from optimised for us.

    For this reason some suggest a duration of lived time in the area is required so that NewCoASD that recently move here acclimatise and have time to begin to comprehend the complex practices and realities of this community’s strife to maintain a satisfactory existence, afore they get a vote on determining certain aspects of the area’s future.

    Right, that said I better get back to the minging job of de-coking the inlet ports of this cylinder head which are un-uniquley choked up with recirculated exhaust gas particles. 🙁

  157. Mist001 says:

    I thought that health was a devolved matter to Scotland. If that IS the case, then the Scottish government would have had full control over the closure of borders in Scotland last year during the first Covid wave, under the auspicies of health.

    Further, if health is truly devolved, then they can act now and take full control over ALL drug policies in Scotland, including the prevention of drug deaths.

    The fact that they’re not doing so tells me that either they’re unwilling to take control for whatever reason OR health isn’t actually a devolved matter at all and their hands are tied.

  158. Robert Graham says:

    OH Dear things must be getting pretty grim .

    The machine is getting a bit jittery

    Utube has banned SKY News Australia from its platform for its coverage of The Plague ,
    The next move will be the parent company Google will forget to process any search for information reguarding anything to do with the plague ,

    Aye a free press and free speech remember that ? We used to have both ,

    Patel in the UK is intent in jailing journalists , and Google will stop you reading anything that the journalists write before they are arrested and only approved information is allowed and people don’t believe anything is going on , Aye everything is fkn normal isn’t it ,

    Meanwhile the BBC haven’t noticed riots in various continents because they are refusing to report them I must be mistaken because I have seen disturbances all over and The police are getting pretty worried by the looks of their reaction how long before live ammunition is used by some scared Cop .

    ALL TO PROTECT THE PUBLIC while they are kicking fk out of the public for their own good , must be pretty confusing , protect and beat up in one move .Yeh very confusing eh .

  159. Jack Murphy says:

    From Twitter re their YouTube discussion programme:

    “Due to a technical issue Through A Scottish Prism will be airing slightly after noon today.”

  160. crazycat says:

    @ Ruby at 10.10

    Oh, I absolutely agree that Mike Russell’s views are not worth reading (I’ve never been impressed by him; he was one of several reasons why I didn’t vote SNP on the list in South [of] Scotland in 2003 – I wanted him to lose his seat, which he did).

    I posted because Meg seemed to want to be able to read it, and also to show how easy it is to archive things without even having to open them first – ie the paywall is not a hindrance.

    I also agree with your post at 10.22 – all the people getting exercised about restricting the franchise would, in my opinion, be far better employed convincing so many “real Scots” to support independence that the votes of incomers don’t matter.

  161. James Che. says:

    There is some wisdom in what you say to our original sovereignty.
    Although you speak as if it is not recognised.
    It has not disappeared, it is still with us, and is still recognised by politicians,
    It can be read in Margaret thatchers book, it was discussed by many politicians on the lead up devolution, it was said even by NS in the early days, and by liberal leader David Steel, and of course in in a court case, Cooper v )
    It is wrote about throughout the ages and recognised.
    That England’s Westminster have discussed it and feared it as a move on it, from the sovereign Scots,
    The fact that in Hansard in many direct and in direct speeches.

    What we have not seen is the devolved Scottish government or the SNP talking about sovereignty of the Scots as a people, a country and a nation,
    Nor have we seen many Scots being aware or using their sovereignty,
    As Scots, we seem to be the only ones who think it is a pile of shite, and not worth the parchment paper it was wrote on,

    I join in other conversations here that may effect Scotland in a half hearted way, as over the years since first reading Robert Pheffers commentary and a few other original bloggers with deep and meaningful thoughtful contributions at that time.
    I realise that the creation of the devolved government. The referendum, the section 30, the dodgy election, the Brexit issue, and Yes even covid rules and the hate crime bill . The genders issues , melt down to nothing. And mean nothing to the sovereign Scots.

    At the end of the day it all amounts to wordsmithing from all politicians.
    Even if other people were not so lucky as the Scots [whereby they have it wrote down] Sovereignty still lies with people

    Politicians, police etc only hold their positions because we vote or consent.
    And in Scotland we can back that sovereignty up in documents and history.

    I pull my hair out, grate my teeth, and scream into the night about how slow and how far behind mentally (we) the Scots are to use that recognised sovereignty,
    Many here go on about trying to convince to slow NOs into YES,.

    That is the wrong direction and the wrong heading.
    Recognising Scots sovereignty is first and foremost for the Scots as people,
    When this is done, everything else in politics has a reduction in political power.

  162. Shocked says:

    What absolute bullshit. You sound the sort of idiot that has allowed the New SNP to get away with euthanising thousands of drug users just because they are Scottish.

    The quickest most effective way of reducing drug deaths is Scotland would be to hand control of policy back to the UK gov and keep the New SNP as far away from decision making as possible.

    Same laws, larger population to deal with and death rates more than 3.5 x lower and lower even than most Scandinavian countries that we are meant to aspire to.

  163. Ron Maclean says:

    @Mist001 12:22

    Health is Scotland is devolved but bear in mind that Westminster is sovereign. It’s an obvious place for a challenge.

  164. Ron Maclean says:

    @Shocked 1:30pm

    If the UK government wanted to do something about drug deaths in Scotland there’s nothing stopping them.

  165. Shocked says:

    @captain yossarian

    I have great sympathy for Craig Murray but I wonder how many of those who are giving him their hard earned cash know that Craig actively campaigned for the people who jailed him?

    Even worse that he now seems intent on claiming that the British state is behind his imprisonment rather than the power crazed psychopath Nicola Sturgeon who used the mechanisms of the Scottish state to try and set up and jail Alex Salmond. It would seem to me that Murray is desperate to be seen in the same light as Julian Assange, in reality he isn’t in the same league, so the tale has to be modified to bring in the British state, MI5, CIA, Iraq war and such other buzz words to appeal more to the lucrative lecture circuit and book deals that Murray will be eyeing when he is released from prison.

    Murray may find to his detriment that when you start embellishing and modifying the story to suit your agenda, the people who have supported you the whole way through the saga will turn their back on you and the new fair weather friends you’ve made with abandon you when they realise they have been duped. He’d be far better off just telling it as it is because to start embellishing the tale the way he is does him no favours and diminishes the crimes of Nicola Sturgeon and the danger she presents to freedom in Scotland.

  166. Shocked says:

    @ron Maclean

    Just the small matter of a fully devolved health service and social care on Scotland…

    And in fact the UK government has written to sturgeon multiple times offering to help and sturgeon hasn’t even given them the courtesy of a response.

    Now I hope you aren’t a New SNP apologist who thinks these people should be used as cannon fodder to start a fight?

  167. Ron Maclean says:

    @Shocked 2:05pm


    Westminster is sovereign.

  168. Scott says:

    Shocked says:
    1 August, 2021 at 7:54 am

    Aye Scott, maybe it is but she disposed it one day a week, curiously the same as the pharmacy round the corner from my old office in the west end of Edinburgh that was queued out the door on a Thursday.

    There’s no maybe about it.

    It is dispensed daily.

    Did your imaginary pal only work one day a week?

  169. Shocked says:

    Oh here comes Scott the New SNP apologist, mind these people are just cannon fodder to the party leader clinging to a document they haven’t even read properly.

  170. Captain Yossarian says:

    @Shocked – I think that most folk that see this will see this from a purely Scottish perspective. “Craig Murray was jailed for jigsaw identification”. There is no legal precedent for it anywhere in the world and it was done to accord with the world view of a particular Scottish judge. Can you isolate parts of a jigsaw and jail one and not the others? So, one man is guilty and the others are not? Apparently so.

    That’s where we are at. As for the rest of your response, we’ll see what happens next.

  171. Andy Ellis says:

    @ James Che 1.25 pm

    Surely the majority of Scots do recognise popular sovereignty though? Even the more thoughtful unionists (granted that Mayo be a minority but I’m sure they do exist?) will admit that ultimately it is for Scots to decide their future. After all the fact that a supermajority in polling consistently agrees that when and how often we have referendums should be solely a matter for Holyrood means that a good 15-20 % of unionist voters disagree with bloviating British nationalists like Willie Ronnie, Alex Cole-Hamilton and the rest.

    You say that the policy of trying to convert “soft No” voters to “Yes” is misguided but I can’t figure out what your alternative is? It’s often been said, including if I remember rightly by Alex Salmond, that when you laid out what the Yes movement was trying to do, i.e. what Scotland could do and become with full powers, there was a majority in favour, it was just the “I” word they balked at. Such people aren’t ideologically opposed to independence under all circumstances, they just don’t realise yet that the kind of policies they want to see enacted and society they want to see realised, are only really available outside of the UK project.

    When all is said and done, when a majority could be conjured by assuring people they would be £500 a year better off than if we stayed in the union, the surprising thing is that the movement failed to make a case convincing enough that it would happen. We were pushing on an open door but got sidelined mounting a unidimensional, relentlessly positive happy-clappy campaign that never really laid a glove on Project Fear. We may have squandered the best chance in a generation to deliver independence, since even post brexshit and Covid the SNP has contrived to stall the Yes movement and make zero progress for 7 years.

    I’d suggest it’s not sovereignty that is the issue, it’s lack of political smarts on the part of the leadership and lack of balls on the part of the voters.

  172. Breeks says:

    Scottish Prism is having abnormal difficulties uploading.

    Seems it’s not just me who lives in the Internet Bermuda Triangle…

    Anybody who’s a subscriber should get a notification when it’s up. I don’t have YouTube Account to subscribe or I would, so I suppose it’s just a waiting game…

  173. @Captain Yosarian,

    i said `i assumed you were either English or identified as British`

    how is that a personal attack,

    you have never (as far as i know) identified as being Scottish and you have often admitted to being a unionist,

    you cannot be both a unionist and Scottish,

    so i was surpprised by your statement of being embarrassed to be Scottish when you are generally seen as being either English or identifying as British,

    nowt wrong with either,it`s your choice, but a bit hypocritical to be `Scottish` when it suits you to disparage Scotland.

  174. Scott says:

    Shocked says:
    1 August, 2021 at 2:18 pm

    Oh here comes Scott the New SNP apologist

    Me pointing out your obvious inaccuracies makes me a “New SNP apologist” how exactly?

  175. Captain Yossarian says:

    Scot – Try and add something to these pages. Give folk something to think about for a change. It’s attack, attack, attack. Give it a rest. Try your ‘Scottishness’ test on Stuart Campbell and see where it gets you.

  176. Fred says:

    “ guarantees they are out on their arses at the next election.”

    Effigy, absolutely nothing will change at the next election. That’s the hopeless situation we’re in.
    The reality is that we’re decades off seeing any credible opposition rise to prominence- if indeed that ever happens. Labour will eat itself to death, as its doing just now with all its factional infighting, and will likely break up into a number of unelectable fringe parties with varying agendas. ALBA will never gain the kind of traction or funding it requires to make any serious impact. LibDems will still be trying to figure out exactly which part of the populace they should represent – and there’s just nothing else worth voting for – if votes will even matter in the near future.
    Short of a revolution or military coup, we’re stuck with what we’ve got for many years to come.

  177. Shocked says:

    @captain Y

    Domestically most of us will see it for what it is, but internationally Craig may end up muddying the waters so much that the actual reason for his imprisonment will get lost in the fog of MI5, CIA, Iraq war conspiracies and the real crimes that have taken place in Scotland won’t even be remembered

  178. Shocked says:


    By trying to pretend the problem either doesn’t exist or has nothing to with your heroine.

    And a wee tip for you in the last comment I will direct to you, try actually reading documents if you are going to post them otherwise you end up making a fool of yourself. I’ll leave you to read it yourself to work out why.

  179. Andy Ellis says:

    @ Shocked 2.02 pm

    I have no particular axe to grind for Craig Murray but what has happened to him is a travesty of justice. Few people who are even minimally aware about Scottish politics will be unaware of his SNP membership or his defence of the party, even his views on GRA, so I doubt many supporting him will have any illusions.

    Like Assange, Murray certainly contributed to his own downfall. He was well warned of the dangers of what he was doing but carried on regardless. He certainly doesn’t deserve to be serving time and in the end the fact that he has been singled out and made an example of will probably blow up in the faces of those who contrived to make it happen, and those crowing about it. It makes little difference whether they are British nationalists (of whom little better can be expected) or SNP cultists and the Woko Haram cadres infesting parts of the independence movement: the optics of jailing a journalist and activist is not just morally wrong, it is deeply stupid from a domestic political point of view and in the eyes of international opinion.

    If you want to discern the difference between those who are on the side of the angels in the independence movement, and those with something of the night about them, just check out where they stand on the jailing of Craig Murray. Anyone supporting his incarceration or who says it is defensible is no friend of the independence movement.

  180. Hatuey says:

    Dan: “ some suggest a duration of lived time in the area is required so that NewCoASD that recently move here acclimatise and have time to begin to comprehend the complex practices and realities of this community’s strife to maintain a satisfactory existence, afore they get a vote on determining certain aspects of the area’s future…”

    Exactly what I think. Actually I say most of that just by the way I stand.

    Try explaining it to the yahoos on here.

  181. John Main says:


    “In scientific terms, there’s no such thing as species”

    Ground breaking stuff there Hatuey.

    Tell me, did you ever work as a farmer, butcher, vet, big game hunter, zookeeper, or even as a curator of museum fossils? How did you get on?

  182. Captain Yossarian says:

    @Shocked – I made it clear in my post earlier, who I blame for this: “I don’t know about others, but this makes me ashamed to be Scottish and live under this rancid Holyrood fandango.”

    MI5, MI6, the CIA, the English, or anyone else are not involved in this. That’s what I think and my guess is that that’s the way it will be seen overseas as well.

    By the way, 120 countries is just about the whole rest of the world. So, while we vex away on this site about MI5, MI6, the CIA and the English, it is the whole world that are judging us.

  183. Scott says:

    Shocked says:
    1 August, 2021 at 2:43 pm


    By trying to pretend the problem either doesn’t exist or has nothing to with your heroine.

    Stop making an arse of yourself.

    You were the one who breenged in to the discussion with your ‘methadone prescription day’ nonsense, acting as a voice of authority on the subject.

    Nictating Sturgeon is my heroine? You’re wrong again, as usual.

  184. Shocked says:

    @captain Y

    My concern about Craig muddying the waters is it may allow sturgeon to avoid being shamed internationally as a criminally corrupt wannabe despot and enemy of freedom of speech and human rights. As we all know the narcissistic psychopath Nicola Sturgeon loves to play the part of the woke progressive world leader, if the very people she seeks validation from see her for what she is it may hasten her demise.

  185. James Che. says:

    See Micheal Gove in the daily paper now saying that we can have an indyref, since popularity has declined for independence, what a man.
    Sovereignty of the Scots is wrote down and acknowledged by the British government, and has a recorded history that has been maintained.
    Popular sovereignty on the other hand is a generalisation of the idea.
    Nice try Andy to try merge the two. I call that wordsmithing.

  186. John Main says:

    Scott Finlayson

    “You cannot be both a Unionist and Scottish”

    God help me, I am so far through the looking glass now that I actually understand Scott’s logic.

    Funny really. Only last week I was going to reply to one of Mia’s posts by saying that the way to settle the argument over who gets to vote at the next Indy referendum is to legislate that only Yes voters get to vote. 100 per cent Yes therefore guaranteed.

    I thought that was daft, but now here comes Scott saying the same thing.

    Unionist = not Scottish. Only Scots get to vote. 100% Yes guaranteed.

    Why has this idea taken so long to gain traction?

  187. Breeks says:

    James Che. says:
    1 August, 2021 at 1:25 pm
    There is some wisdom in what you say to our original sovereignty.
    Although you speak as if it is not recognised.
    It has not disappeared, it is still with us, and is still recognised by politicians…

    I agree with you, but it is not recognised internationally. Everybody respects the “bogus” convention of UK Parliamentary sovereignty, the fairy story if you will, and not the awkward constitutional truth that the Union is a contrived fudge that is maintained solely by sophistry and bluster.

    I don’t believe Independence is a matter for ANY referendum or electoral mandate. It is asking a people whether they have a say, when it is already implicit they do have a say, by simple virtue of the fact you’re asking them.

    It is, as you say, a matter of clarification of the Constitutional Absolute condition that Scotland IS sovereign, and having the fallacy of Westminster’s unwritten “Convention” on Parliamentary Sovereignty exposed and demolished, and have the International community cease it’s “misplaced” recognition of the UK Parliamentary sovereignty in lieu of a more correct understanding of Scottish Sovereignty and presumably English Sovereignty too, because the UK will cease to exist in any lawfully Constitutional sense.

    The only merit in a referendum is that it’s a sop to democracy, would establish the will of the sovereign Scottish people unequivocally in “democratic” terms, but even that becomes a paradox if you accept the Treaty of Union never did, and never could remove their sovereignty in the first place. A “democratic” NO vote is every inch the equally sovereign edict as a “democratic” YES vote, so what is your referendum actually achieving? Nothing constitutional.

    All you can achieve from a Constitutional Referendum is a choice whether Scotland’s sovereign people will stay with the 1707 Trade Agreement, or leave it. Thus the NO vote of 2014 was a constitutionally sovereign as a YES vote would have been because 2014 was NOT a constitutional referendum on Sovereignty, nor abdication of sovereignty.

    A referendum, especially one which embraces the Section 30 bullshit from the Scotland Act is a mechanism of the Domestic UK Legislation which has Westminster as it’s superior. The Scotland Act which set up Devolution is thus an instrument of domestic UK legislation, NOT International Law. Scotland is NOT seceding from the UK. Scotland will not be, and cannot ever be a seceding state “leaving” the UK mothership, just as there cannot be, will not be, a Continuer UK state.

    I repeat, the Devolution settlement of the Scotland Act is NOT International Law but purely domestic UK Law. In contrast however, the 1707 Treaty of Union was not domestic legislation, but an International Treaty between two sovereign Nations, and it remains extant today, without one single word of text altered from 1707.

    Scotland can thus resile the Treaty of Union without ANY permission or acquiescence being sought from London, because the issue will NOT be a an issue of domestic legislation but international legislation, where Scotland is free to exercise it’s sovereign prerogative.

  188. Shocked says:


    Last comment to you.

    By Christ you are a thick , you post a document that points out that most patients in the Lothians receive drug treatment prescriptions on an instalment basis, ie weekly or longer. It also contains an agreement for setting a time for patients to collect prescriptions at a certain time as as not to disturb other patients, a specific day.

    You didn’t even read it, mind it would be too much for your tiny mind to comprehend.

    Now away and whack off to your bedside portrait of Queen Nicola.

  189. Ron Maclean says:

    Interesting post – ‘Even Mike Russell Backs Murray’ – on

  190. Andy Ellis says:

    @ John Main 3.05 pm

    It’s not a new idea. The appellation of “90 minute patriots” or “plastic Scots” triggers most Scottish unionists because like most such attacks it contains an element of truth. I’ve made no bones in the past (and often been criticised for it) for agreeing with Derek Bateman’s words used in the foreword of the Wee Blue Book I think that nobody who opposes Scottish independence can really claim to be Scottish because they don’t really believe in Scotland as a country: Great Britain is their country. They are the equivalent of people insisting they saw no compromise being supporters of the Ottoman state although they weren’t Turkish, or of supporting the continuation of the Habsburg Dual Monarchy although they were neither Austrian nor Magyar.

    There is of course a hard core of “bitter einder” Scots unionists who will never be reconciled to Scottish independence. What they do in the event of Scottish independence happening will be interesting. Some may leave, others will accept the will of the majority and participate fully in building a new state, while others may campaign to rejoin the union (assuming the rest of the UK would consent to have them back of course?). I don’t think there was much of a move in Ireland amongst Irish unionists to rejoin after 2021, but those were different times and different circumstances of course.

    In the end however surely Derek Bateman’s assessment is right, it’s only in Scotland that we dance on the head of a pin and accept that there isn’t something very odd about people in country voting not to become independent and then complaining when those who oppose their unionism refuse to accept them as Scottish in any conventional sense.
    Scotland isn’t their country, Britain is.

  191. Ron Maclean says:

    From; ‘Questions of Sovereignty: Redefining Politics in Scotland?
    David McCrone, Michael Keating
    First published: 04 January 2021/

    ‘The sovereignty conundrum

    The question of sovereignty has never been resolved in Scotland. On the one hand, there is the Westminster doctrine, that the Crown-in-Parliament is sovereign and subject to no higher or lower authority. On the other is the view that the United Kingdom is a union of nations created by successive instruments, which did not extinguish their historic rights. In a famous obiter dicta of 1953, Lord Cooper declared in the Court of Session that, as the old Scottish Parliament had never exercised untrammelled sovereignty, it could not have passed it onto the Parliament of Great Britain created by the Union of 1707.

    The Scotland Act (1998), creating the new Scottish Parliament, affirmed the Westminster doctrine in clear terms. The courts have upheld this view, including the Supreme Court, called on to adjudicate in Miller v Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union (2017) and on the Scottish Continuity Bill (2018). Yet the basis of this is merely an assertion by Parliament of its own prerogatives. …’

  192. Breeks says:

    It would benefit the whole nation of Scotland IMMENSELY to have all the fetid, rotten flesh boiled off Scotland’s true Constitutional status, because the bare bones of Scotland’s lawful Constitution and Sovereignty are NOT difficult to understand, but they are mired in layer upon layer of fallacies introduced by the Treaty of Union and innumerable unwritten conventions thereafter, unsubstantiated assertions and unfounded presumptions which have been designed to muddy the constitutional waters and deny clarity of the fundamental truths.

    Boil this interminable Independence “merry-go-round” down to it’s insoluble critically essential components, and once the basic issues are thus UNDERSTOOD, the essential A,B,C of the reality, then the decisions we need to make as a Scottish Nation will be clear and unequivocal.

    We do not need a referendum to be an Independent Nation. We might want one, but you know what? Here’s the funny twist. That confirmatory referendum or ratification plebiscite would be held under Domestic Law, but Domestic Scottish Law, not International Law, nor domestic UK Law.

    Before you shut up shop permanently Rev Stu, how about one last wee Book that establishes the critical path Scotland should follow to assert it’s Constitutional Sovereignty and Rights under International Law, and slice away all these layers of bogus convention and sophistry.

    A bit like the Commonweal’s steps how to create an Independent Nation, let us instead have the essential steps identified which are needed to bring to an end 300+ years of ultra virus fallacy, bogus convention, and sophistry.

  193. Scott says:

    Shocked says:
    1 August, 2021 at 3:17 pm


    Last comment to you.

    You said that earlier. Are you ever truthful?

    I’ll state again, for the record, I’m no fan of Nictating Sturgeon.

  194. Mia says:

    “all the people getting exercised about restricting the franchise would, in my opinion, be far better employed convincing so many “real Scots” to support independence that the votes of incomers don’t matter”

    I am sorry but this section of your comment has the distinctive tinge of the deflective bullshit that Sturgeon’s tetraplegic SNP propaganda-pumping machine has been force-feeding us with for the last 6.5 years and counting.

    Bullshit of course that was intended to justify her deliberate inaction to progress Scotland’s autonomy, deliberate undermining of our popular sovereignty, deliberate undermining of our democracy and her submissive handing of our rights and control of main assets to England MPs while she kept the yes movement on a hamster wheel and going nowhere.

    How very new Labour of her, don’t you agree?

    The thing is as soon as you lay your eyes on the last published census from 2001 to 2022 (I am avidly waiting for the publication of the census from 2011 to 2021) and start using a calculator, you realise immediately that, if the political fraud is determined to maintain the flawed franchise used in 2014 for the new referendum, such excuse is such an astronomic level of bullshit that breaks the scale of any trustworthy measuring device.

    If you look in detail at the Scottish census from 2001 to 2011 you can clearly see there that the population of Scotland increased in that time by 233,392 people.

    Yet, of those, only 1,484 or so were born in Scotland, and not necessarily from Scottish parents, in other words, not necessarily of Scottish ancestry and not necessarily having allegiance to Scotland. In fact, quite a few of those were born from parents of different ancestry.

    You must know that the UK itself does not automatically grant you citizenship if you are born in the UK. One of your parents at least must be a UK citizen or naturalised UK citizen. Because the Scottish census very carefully leaves that information out, you don’t know how many of those 1484 are really Scots or just children of other nationality who just happened to be born here because their parent/s was/were living here at the time of their birth. UK controlled territories like Gibraltar and Maldives follow the same rule, so why ?should Scotland operate under different parameters?

    If the political fraud gets away with continuing to push indyref back, another 5 years, we will find ourselves in 2026 in next to no time.

    By 2026 time, not only those who remain in Scotland from the 231,908 who arrived from 2001 to 2011, and that were not born in nor have allegiance to Scotland, will be allowed to vote in Scotland’s referendum. Also the 1484 born in Scotland from 2001 to 2011 will be able to cast their vote.

    The thing is if you follow your “doctrine” of “converting real scots” as you call them as the road to independence, you may succeed in convincing a 60% or more of those 1484 newly born Scots from 2001 to 2011, but you will find that such success is a grain in the sand compared with the 231,908 individuals with a different ancestry, with no allegiance to Scotland and with many of them holding vested interests in Scotland remaining in the UK, that you still need to convince in order to get a yes vote in the referendum.

    And this is just with the incomers from 2001 to 2011. There is nothing to suggest that the flow of incomers to Scotland (and sadly the flow of Scotland’s natives emigrating somewhere else) was different from 1991 to 2001 or will be any different from 2011 to 2021 or from 2021 to whenever the political fraud chooses to call the referendum.

    In other words, for every 10 years the political fraud delays the referendum, for each person born in Scotland (that not necessarily of Scots ancestry) that we convert to yes, we will have still another 157 not born in Scotland, with different ancestry, with allegiance to a different nation and with their own vested interests to convert.

    Unless the majority of all those incomers, with far less incentive to vote yes than the Scots by ancestry who live in Scotland, vote yes, they will block out the yes vote of the 60% new natives you have managed to “convert”.

    Let me illustrate this a bit more clearly:

    The total increase in population from 2001 to 2011 was: 233,392
    Of those, the number born in Scotland was: 1,484
    The number of those who were not born in Scotland was: 231,908

    If you manage to “convert” 60% of the 1484, this is what you would get (assuming 100% participation in the referendum):

    890 would vote yes
    594 would vote no

    But you now have the remaining 231,908 incomers that have no allegiance to Scotland, have different ancestry and many of them, particularly those living in the rest of the UK, would have a vested interest in blocking independence. So if you campaign and campaign and campaign and you succeed to get a 49% of those 231,908, this is what you get (again, assuming 100% participation in the referendum):

    118,273 will vote no (51%)
    113,635 will vote yes (49%)

    Now if you add the yesses and the noes together this is what you get:

    Yes: 113,635 + 890 = 114,525
    No: 118,273 + 594 = 118,867.

    Even if you managed to convert 100% of those who were born in Scotland from 2001 to 2011 to yes, the overall figures for yes and no you would get among that population of 233,392 joining Scotland from 2001, this is what you would get:

    Yes:113,635 + 1484 = 115,119
    No: 118,273

    Do you see the wee problem here?

    Can you see now how that bit of your comment and what Sturgeon and her praetorian guard have been feeding us for the last 6.5 years and counting has the distinctive aroma of manure?

    Can you see now how, for each new year that passes us by, the present franchise is in even better position to deny the Scottish nation its right to self determination?

    It is a ruse. The only ones that are benefitting for the delay that the political fraud is imposing on the referendum is the British state and those in Scotland who are desperate for Scotland to remain in the union.

    Still think this woman and her praetorian guard are really seeking Scotland’s independence?

  195. Mia says:

    @ Mia

    Apologies for the typo. Where it says “as soon as you lay your eyes on the last published census from 2001 to 2022”, I was meant to write “as soon as you lay your eyes on the last published census from 2001 to 2011”

  196. Republicofscotland says:

    This is very sad, but it also makes my blood boil, a tearful farewell from Craig Murray to his family and a supportive crowd.

  197. Scott says:

    Mia says:
    1 August, 2021 at 3:44 pm

    (I am avidly waiting for the publication of the census from 2011 to 2021)

    You’ll be waiting a while for that. The 2021 Census in Scotland was postponed until 2022.

  198. chas says:


    You can write as much as you want about Scotland’s Constitutional Status but 95% of the population really do not care. A referendum for Independence, at this time. would fail miserably. The SNP can rely on the braindead sheep to vote for it but anyone with any sense at all would be voting NO if Mrs Murrell and her acolytes were to form an Independent Government and correctly so.
    Independence is dead until the SNP hierarchy is weeded out and destroyed. The future for ALBA is uncertain but if I was near the head of the Party I would be very reluctant to accept on board ANY of the current ‘troughers’ that are rife within the SNP.

  199. Mia says:

    “You’ll be waiting a while for that. The 2021 Census in Scotland was postponed until 2022”

    What was the excuse?

    Let me guess… COVID-19?

  200. Breeks says:

    Ron Maclean says:
    1 August, 2021 at 3:35 pm

    The question of sovereignty has never been resolved in Scotland….

    Oh but it has. Sovereignty was established beyond doubt internationally in 1320 and recognised in 1328, was very much resolved and undisputed for nearly 400 years. There is nothing about Scotland’s sovereignty which needs to be better established, and there is no ambiguous feature of it needing ‘resolved’.

    Scotland’s lawful and recognised sovereignty is the lawful benchmark of Scotland’s Constitutional legitimacy and the awkward starting point for Unionists to begin when clarifying how Scotland apparently “lost” these constitutional rights and legitimacies.

    The Treaty of Union defenders should be denied the blank page “clean start” which the Union wants to rely on. There was no blank page. Before their contrived Union is free to wield sovereignty they never wielded before, , it must first prove itself to be sovereign and clarify how that said sovereignty was legitimately removed from the Scottish people, and how that alleged abdication of popular sovereignty became manifest.

    What “mechanism” for example, suddenly made the Scottish people cease to be be sovereign? Show me how, where, when it happened, and how it was recognised, because until and unless to present that evidence in irrefutable form, then it is Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty which remains irrefutable, not your Unionist fairy story attempting to legitimise unlawful and illegitimate colonial encroachment.

  201. Scott says:

    Mia says:
    1 August, 2021 at 3:56 pm

    “You’ll be waiting a while for that. The 2021 Census in Scotland was postponed until 2022”

    What was the excuse?

    Let me guess… COVID-19?


  202. Breeks says:

    chas says:
    1 August, 2021 at 3:51 pm

    You can write as much as you want about Scotland’s Constitutional Status but 95% of the population really do not care. A referendum for Independence, at this time. would fail miserably.

    Well they should care, because they have the power and authority to expel the greedy lodger making himself at home in their Nation. Maybe if they cared a little more he’d have gotten his marching orders sooner and they’d now be living in a rich and prosperous Scotland.

    Maybe if you cared chas, you’d actually have read what I wrote about when I wasn’t even talking about a referendum, but circumventing that wholly unnecessary time wasting process.

  203. John Main says:

    Andy Ellis

    So it really is true – every day IS a school day. Thanks for your explanation.

    OK, let’s just say that what you write is true in every respect and also universally accepted to be true.

    WTF is wanting an independent Scotland to be in the EU all about then? Is that not failing to believe in Scotland as a country?

    You know, all those fundamental laws and policies passed in Brussels by majority votes? A currency pegged to favour German manufactured export goods? A farming policy structured to favour French agriculture? Ever closer union? Mass, unrestricted population movements?

    I thought you favoured all of the above for Scotland?

  204. James Che. says:

    Although once again you show wisdom in your knowledge of the status quo, and as can be seen when you read Reseachbreifings.Files.Parliament.Uk. And the discussion on how to avoid, stall, and divert the wishes of the sovereign Scots through a devolved government to Scotland.
    That the treaty of the union is recognised as an international treaty is in actual fact a limited international treaty in itself,
    Whereby it did not capture sovereign Scots in 1707. It avoided the sovereign Scots in its deliberations by selective choice.
    The acknowledgment by Westminster Parliament alone that Scots are sovereign and have a right to choose their own government, or form of government. [ WHICH by the way does not dictate that, should Scotland take that route, it should be a British union government one ] should be more than enough evidence.
    What is not acknowledged by the Scottish people and seldom has been throughout history, is their sovereignty, if they chose to use it would change the face of politics in Scotland away from The SNP, and the devolved British goverment as overseer of Scotland into the hands of the people, with pretty much immediate effect.
    Let Westminster and the house of lords take up the defensive position on the 1707 treaty of the union on the international stage, with the position of sovereign Scots or sovereignty of Westminster parliament over sovereign Scots for a change.

    We are so busy accepting our Westminster’s version of our fate through referendums and dictatorship that we do not see the legal armoury we hold,
    Through our weakened mentality and devolved British government we are always held deliberately on the back foot, in defensive position.
    Acknowledging our sovereignty and choosing to make the changes with that sovereignty puts Westminster in position of the back foot,
    Or we can go down Micheal Goves new route to independence whereby he sets the rules for us, the hurdles to jump over, and dictates the question and outcome on orders from uk government.

    Perhaps the question should not even be, Do you want Scotland to be independent?

    Maybe the question should be,
    Are the Scots still legally sovereign in their country Scotland,?

    That would encompass everything we need to know for changing our future.

  205. Republicofscotland says:

    Hugh Kerr, a former vice chair of Scottish Executive Council of the National Union of Journalists, has called Craig Murray’s sentence a disgrace and a real threat to civil liberties.

  206. Ron Maclean says:

    @Breeks 4:02pm

    “The Scottish Parliament is a democratically elected legislature with a mandate to make laws for people in Scotland. It has plenary powers within the limits of its legislative competence. It is not akin to a local authority, and it is not subject to the same legal constraints. But it does not enjoy the sovereignty of the Crown in Parliament: rules delimiting its legislative competence are found in section 29 of the Scotland Act, to which the courts must give effect. And the UK Parliament also has power to make laws for Scotland, a power which the legislation of the Scottish Parliament cannot diminish: section 28(7) of the Scotland Act.”
    From The Inaugural Dover House Lecture, 27 February 2019, delivered by Lord Reed, Deputy President of the Supreme Court.

    The Scottish people elect the Scottish Parliament. We have to face facts.

  207. Hatuey says:

    John Main, the fossil record proves that the classification of the species is quite inappropriate. The father of natural history, Darwin, agrees;

    “I have just been comparing the definitions of species […] It is really laughable to see what different ideas are prominent in various naturalists’ minds, when they speak of ‘species’; in some, resemblance is everything and descent of little weight – in some, resemblance seems to go for nothing, and Creation the reigning idea – in some, descent is the key — in some, sterility an unfailing test, with others it is not worth a farthing. It all comes, I believe, from trying to define the undefinable.” Charles Darwin

    Genetics and genome sequencing settled that debate once and for all.

    Of course, nobody could rightly expect a minion like you to understand these things and I will not criticise your ignorance here.

  208. James Che. says:

    Apologies to you. that was meant to read “breeks”

  209. Robert Louis says:

    Breeks at 136pm,

    A trule excellent post. Scotland does NOT need ‘permission’ to hold a referendum, and it doesn’t even need a referendum to become independent. Scotland had the necessary sovereignty to pass the Scottish act of union in 1707, and NOTHING in the treaty removed that sovereignty. Nothing.

    As Scotland joined the union so it can leave. It requires only the ‘permission’ of the people of Scotland. Not England. not Westminster, not the lying, thuggish English prime minister in Downing street, not Michael ‘I am a liar’ Gove. Nope, none of those just the sovereign people of Scotland.

    Everything else, including the utter unionist p*sh from our current First Minister, is simply not true.

    Or, as you yourself, put it more succinctly,

    Quote “We do not need a referendum to be an Independent Nation. We might want one, but you know what? Here’s the funny twist. That confirmatory referendum or ratification plebiscite would be held under Domestic Law, but Domestic Scottish Law, not International Law, nor domestic UK Law. “

    We now all know for sure what Sturgeon is. She is a fraud, no friend of Scotland, working for London, while playing the pro-indy charade to string the gullible along. She only ever has excuses to NOT push for indy. She will never lead Scotland to independence, and despite all her bluster, will NEVER actually call a referendum. Her desctruction of the SNP is NOT an accident – gender nonsense being her weapon of choice.

  210. Robert Louis says:

    Ron MacLean at 424pm,

    I think you miss the point, what you cite are England’s rules. They can say whatsoever they wish about Scotland, and what it can or cannot do, but that is irrelevant. The very second Scotland decides to become independent and unilaterally end the undemocratic, unwanted union with England, then Westminster ceases to have ANY say in the matter. They become just another foreign government.

    Too many folk think along the lines of how somehow magically England would still have a say, once Scotland re-asserts its independence. It wouldn’t. Of course, they would pretend they have special powers to interfere, they would state that they have some ‘crown in parliament’ authority or whatever hubris they could come up with, but actually, in reality they wouldn’t. Just like Scotland does not need their permission to become independent.

    Of course England will always pretend to have authority, that is exactly what they have done with every single one of their former colonies, right up to the point when those colonies showed them the door. Scotland is effectively England’s last colony. As with all their other former colonies, it is up to us (not them) to show England the door.

  211. Mist001 says:

    That Twitter video of Craig Murray surrendering himself to the police today encapsulates precisely the problem that Scotland has.

    Edinburgh isn’t a small joint out in the sticks somewhere and St. Leonards police station is within easy walking distance of Waverley Train Station and yet, there are only around 40 people there, including photographers from the press.

    Where are all these supporters of freedom of speech? Where are all these supporters of Craig Murray? Where are all the independence supporters? Where are AUOB who always loved do exaggerate about the turn out to their social gatherings?

    The answer is of course, nobody actually gives a fuck unless it’s all about them.

    And there is Scotlands problem right there.

  212. robbo says:

    Alex Salmond talking to the 6000 th .More like this dear auld lady is what we need and less of the zoomers that come on here with their , too wee , too stupid, too poor mantra.

    The unionist apologist’s know who they are- don’t you!

    Let Westminster do this , let Westminster do that for us- Independence supporters my arse!

  213. chas says:


    ‘Maybe if you cared chas, you’d actually have read what I wrote about when I wasn’t even talking about a referendum, but circumventing that wholly unnecessary time wasting process’.

    And who would form the Scottish Government should we circumvent the time wasting process? Do the current incumbents carry on as they are doing with even greater powers?

  214. Ron Maclean says:

    @Robert Louis 5:01pm

    ‘I think you miss the point, …’

    Scotland is not independent. These are not England’s rules. The Scottish people elect the Scottish parliament and in so doing accept the Scotland Act, and at best, a significant loss of their sovereignty.

    We have to face facts and perhaps consider how we can address our weaknesses.

  215. Captain Yossarian says:

    “and less of the zoomers that come on here with their , too wee , too stupid, too poor mantra.”

    I remember the days before Holyrood. We were top country in the UK for education, law and order and the judiciary and health. Holyrood changed all that and we are now at the bottom, or approaching the bottom.

    On outliers like drugs deaths we are bottom in the whole world.

    The vainglorious Lady Dorian has drawn comment from John Pilger no-less and made us appear like a global shit-house. So, we’re not too wee, too stupid or too poor – we’re just bent; untrustworthy; fundamentally dishonest.

    Don’t insult our intelligence by calling us ‘unionist appologists’. Clear-out Sturgeon, Evans, Dorian and a few dozen other tools of the junta and then you might just have the makings of a plan.

    I understand that even Dani Garavelli now has a well-paid gig at Holyrood. Happy with that, are you Robbo?

  216. Ron Maclean says:

    Finally, if the Scottish people are sovereign, explain Brexit.

  217. Dan says:

    @ Mist001

    It is a travesty what Craig Murray has, and unfortunately continues to endure.
    It is a symptom of the struggle Scotland as a country faces that the “YES movement” is so divided with all its myriad big and little factions striving to do it “their way”, and utterly failing to unify for the greater cause.

    Admittedly I didn’t travel to support and attend the protest in Edinburgh today as it would mean a whole day out plus expenses.
    But I’ve torn the arse out of traveling to and helping at nearly all the AUOB events in the past, plus work with YES groups, but for the fruits of all that effort and cost, we still at the recent Scottish Parliament election had 1.1 million folk prepared to piss their 2nd votes away for the SNP, who are ultimately responsible for the predicament Craig and various other high profile Pro-Indy folk have found themselves in. 🙁

    Maybe taking some lessons from Catalonia would help.

    A 5 min choreographed vid filmed in one take!

  218. Andy Ellis says:

    @John Main 4.12 pm

    Nobody sane buys the “EU membership is pretendy independence!” schtick John. 500 million EU citizens in their independent nation states think it’s hilarious.Of course it’s possible – even probable – that a post indy Scotland will take the Norwegian option and/or join EFTA even if only temporarily. The plain fact is the overwhelming majority of Scots are pro EU: that’s unlikely to change and the little Englander brexit madness will only have made it stronger IMHO.

    Anyone who can’t see the difference between limited pooling and sharing of sovereignty in an essentially confederal model like the EU, and a union like the UK is either ill informed or just ill intentioned. Neither is a particularly good look. FWIW given the EUs shameful treatment of Greece during the financial crisis and of Catalonia during their abortive independence referendum, I had something of a crisis of conscience about the EU after decades of being very pro EU as a project and ultimately as a destination, however many decades or centuries it may have taken.

    Now, I’d say the dreams of Euro federalists are dead. We need a new model and new thinking, which is unlikely to emerge from the current EU establishment in Brussels, any more than the answers to Scotland’s future lie in Westminster.

  219. twathater says:

    Mia I will say again you are wasting your time with nativist Andy the well known progressive civic nationalist who abhors anyone and anything contrary to his views, since he returned home in 2018 nativist Andy has enshrined progressive civic nationalism in his every middle class thought

  220. robbo says:


    Aye. No shocks you would comment. The vast majority on this forum don’t want Sturgeon to lead us or her little scumbags woke brigade. That’s the whole point on us voting and supporting Alba. What are you doing but complaining and sitting on yir arse talking about a school that’s been sinking for years. Where is this fucking school? Do you have photo’s of it sinking? It must be a hunner feet under the grun by noo eh! Has it been closed? Who’s dealing with it Swinney- well, see we don’t like Swinney either.

    Now piss off !

  221. Andy Ellis says:


    For the love of God think about editing your posts before posting. Learn to précis.
    Less is more. Don’t repeat the same tired old guff you keep repeat it not justifying and expect people to take it seriously.

    You have no clue what the voting intentions or backgrounds of the “incomers” or their descendants will be. You have no back up, no polling, no evidence, just your couthy assurances that we’re being ethnically cleansed by a tidal wave of furriners, despite the fact native born Scots still make up the overwhelming majority of the population.

    Citizenship and naturalisation in independent countries =/= deciding the franchise for independence referendums. No other country holding a referendum for independence makes that linkage, but like a dog returning to its vomit you keep just lapping that failed logic up.

    Your obsession with the arithmetic of immigration all sounds a bit well….Faragist for most reasonable folk’s tastes?

  222. Robert Louis says:

    Ron MacLean at 536pm,

    Brexit? It happened because the elected government of Scotland decided to capitulate, rather than stand up for Scotland’s consitutional rights. It really is that simple. It did not have to happen. Call it cowardice, call it inept, call it what you like, but that IS what happened.

    As regards your earlier point, you logic is suspect. A Scot voting in Scottish elections does not necessarily accept the Scotland act. I certainly vote, and I don’t.

    You need to think beyond the current status quo.

  223. Grouse Beater says:

    Craig Murray and the monarchy – your essential weekend reading:

    ‘SNP and People Power’:

  224. Robert Louis says:

    I see that Grouse beater has a simply excellent piece up about the unelected head of state and Craig Murray. It is a very useful piece.

    I hope he doesn’t mind, if I cite his closing parapgraph;

    QUOTE “The British state and its apparartus is not an abstraction. It exists and it is malignant. We must not allow the British state to dictate the course of Scotland’s freedoms for the next 100 years! Our objective is to conquer liberty and independence, to create a people’s power, to construct a new society without exploitation for the benefit of all those who feel themselves to be Scots.”


  225. Captain Yossarian says:

    robbo – You sound like a Scottish lawyer.

  226. Robert Louis says:

    oops, you beat me to it!

  227. Breeks says:

    chas says:
    1 August, 2021 at 5:11 pm

    And who would form the Scottish Government should we circumvent the time wasting process? Do the current incumbents carry on as they are doing with even greater powers?

    There are a variety of options, maybe the incumbents if they were to step outside of Westminster and Holyrood and pledge allegiance to Scotland’s sovereign people, maybe a new Scottish Senate could function as a Constitutional Chamber, The Claim of Right has words to the effect of choosing the type of government best suited to our needs.

    But even before such things ever became a reality, the mere change of direction and emphasis would change the political landscape completely. For example, say there was a Constitutional Senate proposed to stand outside of Holyrood, do you suppose Westminster and Holyrood would do nothing about it? Do you suppose Sturgeon would agree to a Scottish Senate taking over as Constitutional Guardian and threatening her with impeachment for her unconstitutional blunders? I’d like to think she’d be long gone.

    You can bet they would set about strengthening Holyrood’s constitutional validity and undermining the Senate so as to keep a degree of control over Constitutional matters.

    Suppose the Senate set itself upon a path which didn’t involve a referendum. You can bet both Holyrood and Westminster would suddenly rediscover their enthusiasm for an IndyRef under their control rather than deal with Constitutional problems from a Senate altogether outside their control.

    Scotland has the Constitutional strength to take the initiative right across the Constitutional spectrum and life very awkward for Westminster, so why aren’t they? We Scots should be hammering on every door and taking the initiative on all fronts to put Westminster on the defensive and failing to answer our questions.

    Ian Blackford prompted a surge in support just by walking out of Westminster. Then walked right back in again and handed back the initiative as if he’d stolen it.

  228. Robert Louis says:

    Breeks at 611pm,

    A three line summary of everything wrong in the current SNP;

    QUOTE “Ian Blackford prompted a surge in support just by walking out of Westminster. Then walked right back in again and handed back the initiative as if he’d stolen it.”

  229. Gary45% says:

    Aye, but we’re only one part of the global shit-house that is the UK. As I’ve said to you before, WM is a billion times more corrupt than Holyrood, it’s just a pity the media outlets you’ve championed in previous debate didn’t have Craig on the front pages. Todays Sunday Heil had a story about some ersehole getting someone preggers again, nothing about Craig or the continuing billions being stolen by Tories from the UK taxpayers. (Although thanks to the Good Law Project there will be justice brought on them.)

    If there was “real journalism” in this country, every single one of them, TV, newspapers, internet etc. would be screaming at the injustice witnessed in the last few days, and continue until Craig is freed.
    Yet again, stony silence from the Churnalists, and when “they” come for those said Churnalists in the future, we can sit back and watch in silence.

  230. James Che. says:

    Ron Maclean.
    The thing about sovereignty!
    We can change our mind and kick them out if they no longer are representing the Scottish electorate.
    Brexit was a very sound case of not representing the Scottish electorate that voted to stay in the EU,
    As for the devolved government that we elected in, we can just as easily elect it out.
    After all the Scots have the right (to choose )that as a way forward.

    That’s what happens when Scots wake up to the value of their sovereignty, it stops listening to the naysayers.

  231. sarah says:

    O/T re giving some cheer to Craig Murray.

    Out of fellow human sympathy I suggest writing to Craig whilst he is in prison. I don’t know which prison he is in yet but no doubt we will be told by the Craig Murray Justice campaign.

  232. chas says:


    ‘There are a variety of options, maybe the incumbents if they were to step outside of Westminster and Holyrood and pledge allegiance to Scotland’s sovereign people, maybe a new Scottish Senate could function as a Constitutional Chamber, The Claim of Right has words to the effect of choosing the type of government best suited to our needs’.

    Dear oh dear. Mrs Murrell and her chums pledging allegiance-I am sure that will work! Who monitors the process when they fail, as they have done in everything in the last 14 years? Lady Dorian? What would the ‘punishment be?
    A new Scottish Senate!! Who decides who constitutes it? An election? The current Government?

    I am sorry but that is all airy fairy nonsense. Nothing will change in Scotland until the Murrell’s and their acolytes are gone. 30% of the electorate think they are doing a great job. That is what we need to change.

  233. ronald anderson says:

    Sarah Craig will be in Saughton prison

  234. Mia says:

    “I think that most folk that see this will see this from a purely Scottish perspective.”

    To see the incarceration of Mr Murray as an exclusive Scottish thing and independently from that case in Spain about Assange being spied in the Ecuador Embassy by a Spanish company linked to the CIA is, in my view, incredibly naive.

    It is much more likely that the fingerprints of the British state are all over this.

    The made up ruling of “jigsaw identification” comes across as a rushed through, made up smokescreen to cover the real reason.

    There is a few things in this case that stink:

    1. This judge has set up a world-wide, embarrassing and utterly ridiculous precedent. Her name will now go down in history as the unjust Scottish judge who used Scots law to gag journalists – hardly the epitaph a democratic judge would wish to be remembered by.

    2. The sentence Mr Murray was subjected to was exceptionally harsh, particularly when you compare it with the sentence given to the person who actually revealed the names of the perjurers or when you compare it with the sentence given to the individual who sent threats to Ms Cherry.

    3. The ridiculous delays in Mr Murray’s ruling and the point blank denial by the British Supreme Court of a hearing. It would be interesting to compare the timeline of those in parallel with the timeline of the progress of the investigation in Spain. It was only on the 7th July 2021 or so that it was published in the Spanish press that the Spanish police certified the existence of signs of espionage of Assange in the Ecuatorian Embassy.

    4. The novelty of this ruling and its nastiness brings a familiar whiff of dejavu. Scotland used yet again as England’s testing ground, a live lab to deploy and test nasty policies before implementing them in England. Or worse, Scotland’s law and pretend government being used as the convenient shield the British establishment can use on demand to hide behind when it wants something done quickly but it does not have the balls to be seen in public as being associated with it.

    It is my personal opinion that what we have here is another massive scale smokescreen. Why letting the world all over wonder in shock if Mr Murray is sent to prison to stop him attending that court case in Spain that could be uncomfortable for both the UK and USA when you can simply move the strings of your obliging spineless puppets in Scotland’s government, COPFS and judges, make up a new ruling that is even more outrageous to takes the focus of journalists all over the world away from the British state and CIA and and puts it right on its useful idiots in Scotland and a bunch of nobodies selected as cannon fodder to act as complainers in a previous botched job that did not pan out as hoped?

    Such move has of course the additional bonus of portraying Scotland’s law and judges as being as dirty and corrupt as the English ones and of course to make independence under somebody like Sturgeon incredibly dangerous.

    A win win.

    This has the appearance of yet another example where the gatekeepers of Scotland, instead of protecting her as it was their duty, proceeded to hand it over to the British state so it can soil on her and wash its hands after.

  235. Andy Ellis says:

    @twatbrain 5.51 pm

    Ah the return of the snivelling anonymous plays the man not the ball correspondent. Still coming up empty on any actual argument I see? So much easier for the hard of thinking Scottish Faragists to write of those they disagree with as not Scottish enough or *clutches pearls* middle class! What worse insult can there be in the minds of the nativist lumpen proletariat I wonder?

    If you and your mates are the best the proponents of regressive franchise restrictions can come up with, the policy is a non starter irrespective of its deeply regressive political roots and lack of any appreciable support base outside the nutter fringe.

    Perhaps if some of the words are too long for you TLDR Mia can explain them to you after she’s wiped the spittle from your eyes?

  236. John Main says:

    Andy Ellis

    “The overwhelming majority of Scots are pro-EU”

    Hmmm. The majority of Scots are Yoons.

    I think this is where the downside of abandoning logic and reality starts to bite. We have already determined here that we solve the 2014 Indy referendum problem by defining No voters as not Scots at all.

    What if somebody was to convincingly define EU Remain voters as also not Scots?

    Ah, you say, but nobody wants to do that.

    Why not? Works for me.

  237. @Captain Yossarian,

    do you identify as Scottish or British,

    if you admit to identifying as Scottish you can`t also identify as British ,

    if you identify as British you can`t also identify as Scottish,

    it`s a catch 22 scenario.

  238. James Che. says:

    Perhaps Micheal Gove is aware that the Scots are waking up to their sovereignty, after all he was put in charge of the light brigade to attack and stop Scottish independence according to the guardian paper.
    And now he realises that to allow an indyref under British electorial terms would enable Westminster to subdue and keep control of the Scots and the devolved parliament.

    Do you sense panic in the ranks of opposition?
    If the independence shout from the snp has quitened down to zilch. Which it has, Why now?
    Is Boris Jonson government feel weak? And may be in a precarious position in the future due to some other calamity we are as yet unaware of.

    Can’t have the sovereign Scots dictating the terms or times, going rogue on the Scottish branch office. Weakening the British Empire.

    One has to wonder what he is up to with a suspicious mind, as he has never been a friend to independence movement in Scotland.

  239. James Che. says:

    Lady Dorian, just as infamous as the hanging them up judge, she will be known as the banging, them up judge.
    Just as well priti patel didn’t get her own way, she wanted to reintroduce hanging into Britain.

  240. Mia says:

    “Do you sense panic in the ranks of opposition?”

    Nope. What I sense is the British state, once again, coming to the rescue of the political fraud to wash her face and restore her lost credibility.

    Her position is untenable if the voters are convinced they cannot have another referendum – they will not wait for her. They will seek another option and they will vote the SNP out and Alba in in the next GE. You can already taste the impatience and sense the tide changing if you read the comments in “the National”.

    That the yes voters may swap the political fraud for Mr Salmond as a leader of the Yes movement and the want of indyref for a plebiscite election instead that could happen as early as at the next GE is Gove’s fear.

    For the political fraud to function efficiently as the British state last gatekeeper of independence, the yes movement must trust her and do as she says, otherwise they will bypass her and leave her and her forever procrastination, her GRA obsession, he never ending arrogance and self-importance, behind.

    The only thing Gove is doing is giving the political fraud a much needed whitewash of credibility, so hopefully, some of the sheep that are beginning to think indyref is not the way to reach independence, come back to the fore to continue idolising the leader and stay put for the next 5 years.

    I think this is just one of the thousand interventions Mr Gove is planning to make in order to maintain the illusion among the yes voters that the flawed route of an independence referendum under this franchise and the political fraud is still a viable option.

    But that of course is just my opinion.

  241. Andy Ellis says:

    @ John Main 7.14 pm

    It’s not that difficult even for unionists to grasp John. A supermajority of Scots support EU membership: all the polls consistently show this. That supermajority consists of both pro and anti indy folk. Similarly the minority who oppose EU membership contains people from both sides. From memory around 30% of SNP voters are also anti EU.

    For the most part Yes/Leave voters were/are always assumed to be unlikely to prioritise their desire not to be in the EU over their desire to vote Yes. Much the same would probably go for issues like the monarchy and NATO membership. The SNP shifted to the centre in an attempt not to scare the soft No and No/Remain type voters (the ones our nativist friends up thread are intent on driving away).

    I’m happy with a definition of Scots which includes all of those born here and those who have done us the compliment of moving here, even if they are anti EU. An immigrant who believes in independence but is anti EU is still more of a Scot in my eyes than someone whose family have lived here for millennia who is a British nationalist.

  242. John Main says:


    Perhaps I understand these things all too well.

    You don’t like where some people take the concept of race, so your solution is to deny its existence. Having unravelled that thread, your logic now compels you to go after the concept of species.

    Meantime, others are denying the concept of gender because it suits them, and yet more others have their sights on nationality. If the desired ends are advanced, then any contortion or inversion of reality is justified.

    Yup, I think I have a handle on it.

    Anyways, you didn’t answer my question. Please don’t tell me you work with live animals in any capacity!

  243. Scott says:

    Scot Finlayson says:
    1 August, 2021 at 7:21 pm

    @Captain Yossarian,

    it`s a catch 22 scenario.

    I see what you did there. Haha.

  244. JimuckMac says:

    I feel dirty today. Stay strong, stay brave Craig.

  245. John Main says:

    Andy Ellis

    So you believe that pro-Indy trumps anti-EU.

    The inescapable logic of your belief therefore is that the pro-Indy movement should be EU-neutral. It would therefore get the votes of both pro-EU and anti-EU voters.

    Suits me. Indy first. If Scots then want to re-run 1707, at least give us a few years to see if the “too wee, too poor” jibe is false before throwing in the towel and handing the entire shambles over to Brussels to sort.

  246. Confused says:

    When you think about it, Murray could have SO MUCH FUN with this – first up IDENTIFYING AS A WOMAN, which means he avoids male jail.

    Then – claim to be a MUSLIM; supposedly the halal prison food is better than the usual.

    Demand to be addressed by his PRONOUNS – which is the name of one of the alphabet women.

    Change his name by deed poll to Craig -[the names of all the alphabet women]- Murray.

    Spend his time in jail learning IT skills, like use of Photoshop or the 3D tool Blender – making pornographic animations with the faces of “various public figures”. Learn the use of the dark web, VPN, TOR and how to – upload stuff anonymously, without getting huckled.

    He should make numerous COMPLAINTS against prison officers, claiming – violence, mishandling, rough treatment, disrespect, dead-naming, mis-gendering – make all these complaints HATE CRIMES, which the police will be keen to investigate. He should cultivate the other inmates, getting them to cause trouble as well – help them, work on their behalf.

    If he discovers some ashkenazi ancestry, he could go after the lot of them for – ANTISEMITISM.

    Hang them all, with their own rainbow-coloured rope.

    – they will be desperate to be rid of him.

    A lot of guys inside use the time to get very fit – he should think of it as a very austere high-end health farm.

  247. Andy Ellis says:

    @ John Main 8.01 pm

    I don’t personally support EU membership having finally had my faith in the European project finally destroyed by their moral cowardice over Spanish actions in Catalonia. The EU needs root and branch reform IMHO. That being said however I realise that the overwhelming majority of Scots are pro EU as the referendum showed. I don’t think that’s changed significantly since. I certainly wouldn’t vote against independence if it looked likely the majority would take us in to the EU afterwards.

    I suppose everyone will have their own red lines won’t they? Recent events have shown at least some people suggesting they couldn’t in all conscience support an SNP government which imposed its current policies. I’d certainly find it impossible to campaign shoulder to shoulder with the SNP, even if I share the same ultimate goal. Similarly I’d find it very hard to support a campaign that was based on denying or limiting the franchise to “non natives” as some of the moon howlers infesting BTL comments here are proposing.

    Given brexit and the likelihood that indy isn’t happening any time soon, there is likely to be a gap of some years before EU membership would be possible or desirable anyway? Sadly for all the frothing brexiteers the EU are highly likely to fast track an independent Scotland that was keen to join. Don’t forget that Finland joined in 2 years from ground zero: it’s most unlikely Scotland would require

    Who knows perhaps if and when the decision has to be made, Scots will opt for a different course. I’d certainly be happy to see us stay outside like Norway, but an independent Scotland inside the EU is still immeasurably better than being party of the UK as far as I’m concerned.

  248. Muscleguy says:

    People on Methaodone rarely die of Methadone overdose. They die because they stack the methadone with heroin or another strong opiate.

  249. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Confused at 8:01 pm.

    You suggested,
    “When you think about it, Murray could have SO MUCH FUN with this – first up IDENTIFYING AS A WOMAN, which means he avoids male jail.

    Then – claim to be a MUSLIM; supposedly the halal prison food is better than the usual.

    Demand to be addressed by his PRONOUNS – which is the name of one of the alphabet women.

    Change his name by deed poll to Craig -[the names of all the alphabet women]- Murray.”

    Your comment gave me a laugh. Could be interesting if he went with your suggestions!

  250. Hatuey says:

    Hats off to Scottish PEN, a rare example of a small organisation with big integrity. We can guess they aren’t on the SNP payroll and never will be as long as those that tried to use State power to imprison an innocent man are in office.

    Scottish PEN

    “Scottish PEN expresses grave concern over the imprisonment of Craig Murray and calls for his release. The writer is the first person to be imprisoned in Scotland for media contempt for over 70 years. We fear this ruling will have a chilling effect on reporting and free expression”

    The attack on Salmond was pure and simply political and involved the use and abuse of Government powers. It follows that anyone who goes to prison for opposing that or throwing light on the facts of that matter are indeed political prisoners.

    Beware the shills who want to frame and discuss Murray’s imprisonment in exclusively legal terms, forgetting the Salmond scandal that lies at the heart of everything.

    Salmond was found innocent. Two courts agreed. If anyone wants to focus on legalities, they should focus on that.

  251. Andy Ellis says:

    @ Hatuey 8.47pm

    I saw that being quoted and discussed on Twitter as “Integrity Initiative” Leask was owned by David Jamieson for his totally unsurprising attack on Scottish PEN.

    As Hamish Rasputin observed if you want to know what side you shouldn’t be on, it is only necessary to look at those following Leask on Twitter or those agreeing with him and others in their assessment of the organisation’s statement and Craig Murray’s incarceration.

    I have my doubts if Voltaire was somehow resurrected that he would be looking to Scotland in 2021 for ideas on civilisation.

  252. Hatuey says:

    Yes, Andy, they don’t want anyone to side with Salmond or Murray. That’s how authoritarianism and bullying works, of course.

    It’s a crime to be impartial or objective when the bullies round on their victim in the playground, totally intolerable. Anything less than cheering the bullies on is considered treachery.

    PEN is an international organisation that doesn’t depend on hand-outs from ScotGov, though. They can’t threaten or bribe it, so naturally they will resort to trashing it.

    Similarly, Salmond’s real crime, when you boil it all down, and the real reason he was attacked in the first place, was to stand up for Scottish people and to try to protect us from Brexit. He believed securing us a referendum would achieve that.

    If you’re a vindictive self-serving tyrant on a power trip, you simply can’t have people standing up for your victims.

    I hope you are all getting that. Learn to turn a blind eye when they’re pummeling some poor soul. Otherwise they’ll be after you.

  253. Liz g says:

    Andy Ellis @ 8.22 & John Main @ 8.01
    Andy – you make some good points and I agree with almost everything you said , except the Franchise part . (and name call if ye must but I’ll stick to the Revs rules of playing the ball and not the man )
    The 2014 Franchise was IMHO as close to the best we could ever get, espically with a view to no taxation without representation being the lynch pin of democratic fairness, and it is my hope that it is one that can be repeated and right soon.

    But , and it’s a big BUT….. should we not be able to go to the polls within, say, the next 5+ years this would enable Westminister to “seed ” the population as they did in Ireland.
    Therefore to remove the possibility of adjusting the Franchise accordingly is just as dum as sticking to a section 30 only referendum .

    We should at the very least keep the notion on the table and have the conversation.
    If , as you intimated about Europe the evidence suggests that the Scottish people want to go with the 2014 model then that’s fine, but surely if the people feel ( as may have been the case in England with Brexit ) that such a wide franchise is unacceptable and there needs to be a change then that’s democracy too ?
    In the mean time those who want to make the case for change should be able to do so and not be simply told the 2014 model is the only righteous one available.

    If the Westminister establishment are indeed nudging a population shift then firstly there will be evidence of this and secondly keeping the notion that it would be addressed and neutered through the Franchise may just stay their hand…
    It is worth while to note that ….
    Westminister is the only Goverment with the power and the ability to pull off such a stunt in Scotland no other Country can do such a thing and that’s not a thing to do with blood,soil or welcoming new Scots, but rather, everything to do with that bloody Treaty Scotland is caught up in, the very same one that’s the subject of the Franchise.
    To get a fair result Scotland must be able and willing to ensure where we can the other party to the Treaty of Union can not load the population in their favour, they needed time to do this and it looks very much like they are going to get it … so we must look at how to counter their efforts if need be.

    John Main @ 8.01
    Like Andy, the shine very much came of of the EU because of Catiliona, but I do believe that Scotland would do better to become a member of that market.
    Although like yourself I’m no a fan of handing over control to anyone or anything other than the Scots.
    But , it doesn’t have to work that way for an independent Scotland.
    We get to negotiate our own arrangements with the EU/EFTA and our Goverment would be obliged to do so according to our own Constitution …. Therefore , and given our national experience of the last union we signed up to , it would be reasonable that our Constitution contain within it a Sunset Clause.

    E.G. Any and ALL Unions that Holyrood sign the Scottish people into must be approved by referendum every 25/30 years and failure to hold a vote and gain the consent of the people to continue with said Treaty will automatically end it.

    This would mean no generation of Scots are ever again held in any Union/Treaty that they haven’t voted on and can’t easily get out of.
    It would also mean that we and whomever we have a Union with must always demonstrate its benefits or it simply won’t continue .
    This also mitigates any need for a movement like Farage and his nutters forming as we will always have our options open anyway.
    We are no exactly beggars at the gate of Europe and we can be up front about this clause before our politicians even enter the room, and more to the point OUR Politicians hands will be tied too , and their ability to sell us out again stymied.
    In this way we hand control to nobody John we join a club that benefits us …. till it doesn’t …

  254. sarah says:

    @ ronnie anderson at 7.00: thanks for the info that Craig will be in Saughton.

    Address to write to Craig:

    Mr C J Murray MA,
    c/o HMP Edinburgh,
    33, Stenhouse Road,
    Edinburgh EH11 3LN

  255. sarah says:

    Re letters to Craig, apparently the letter address needs his prison number and location in the prison.

    If anyone knows these could you please let us know?

  256. John Main says:

    Liz G

    Thanks for your reply.

    The argument just goes around and around, but you have the gist of my objections.

    Independence and EU membership are different questions and require different referenda.

    It would be an absolute travesty if Scotland ended over 300 years of unwanted union by immediately entering into another union.

    Will an independent Scottish be a wealthy country or not? If it is wealthy, EU membership will cost us. Them’s the rules – the rich countries sub the poor ones. Let’s hope an informed electorate gets the chance to decide if they want to do that in return for the feel-good factor of being Good Europeans with Scottish politicians getting a seat at the top table.

    Of course if we are too wee, too poor, etc. let’s get in there ASAP and hold out our hands. Plenty of votes for that no doubt.

  257. Liz g says:

    Sarah @ 10.10 Thanks for the address Sarah .
    And can I also ask if any kind Winger knows how to get the proper details of how to write to Craig.
    I know it’s only a crumb of comfort for him, but as I understand it that’s how Amnesty started and it did make a difference.
    So any who can should take a trip to the past and get the pen and paper out… we’ve amused ourselves for years with how inventive the creative side of the Yes movement is let’s see if we can cheer him up a bit too …

  258. sarah says:

    @ Liz g: well said. I think Craig receiving sackloads of mail will help the authorities realise that he isn’t alone, and perhaps help speed his release on health grounds. After all Megrahi was released early – why not Craig?

  259. Hatuey says:

    “It would be an absolute travesty if Scotland ended over 300 years of unwanted union by immediately entering into another union.”

    Everything’s dead simple when you’re a genius, right? Black and white.

    Just one problem. Being an EU member and being a UK member are two very different things.

    Why does that matter? Well, duh, being in the UK a means you have zero control over tax, foreign policy, industrial policy, transport, trade policy, nuclear weapons policy, defence, immigration, etc. Do I need to go on?

    An independent country in the EU would have control over nearly all of those things and more.

    No need to respond. That’s the debate over.

  260. Hatuey says:

    I see Sky News Australia has been kicked off of YouTube for a week.

    Don’t agree with that but lol anyway.

  261. Liz g says:

    John Main @ 10.17
    I agree that voting Yes is not an automatic approval to entering the EU .
    They should absolutely be separate votes and the EU one never take place before we have our own Constitution in place.
    In a glass half full kind of way the SNPs current actions have eased that situation somewhat for us now.
    Had we voted Yes while still members, I absolutely believe there would have been some sort of holding pen for Scotland and we’d have been ushered in amongst everything else that was going on.
    My only comfort there was that the EU have the article 50 process in place.
    But I was concerned we’d get signed up and signed in without the kind of deal we could otherwise have.
    This is also why I’m happy there’s a second Scottish Party now ( and potentially a third ) it scared me that in the event of a Yes vote in 2014 we had only one party to vote for and they would consider my vote as approval for the EU.
    I voted remain John, but that’s not the same thing as looking at what’s on offer in a Scotland only membership…. and as you say that needs some consideration .

  262. sarah says:

    Re Craig Murray’s contact details in HMP Edinburgh: I have just emailed to ask for his prisoner number and location on the prison site. When/if they reply I will post on here.

  263. Effigy says:

    Shocked says-

    Bull shit?
    You suggestion. Is to ask Westminster to rule over us
    as we are too wee and too stupid.

    Try sticking your fingers to see if it helps your brain.

    Dear Boris,we are all daft and don’t know what to do about drugs
    so you better take all our powers away and lock us up? FFS

  264. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    I picked up this link this morning, either from here or Twitter.

    It’s a decent read, about the status of “journalism’ in the British Isles, currently.

  265. Liz g says:

    Sarah @ 10.45
    Thanks Sarah x

  266. J.o.e says:

    The one thing that is missing, constantly, from being mentioned when it comes to access to voting rights is the scale of the movements of people now.

    1 – shift millions of people into other countries regardless of the effects on jobs, services, prices, crime and the opinion of the locals
    2 – whine about how unfair it is that anybody could dream of keeping strict access to voting, and argue about how by keeping it tight would disenfanchise the newcomers
    3 – use the media to compare actual nationalism to supremacism (and ultimately muh nazis) and spread fear of nationalism among the newcomers

    Voila. Country is in the process of being handed over to undemocratic international institutions that have their roots in the banking establishment.

    Questions for civic nationalists:
    1 – is there an ethnic group of people we can call ‘Norwegian’?
    2 – do they have a place on earth we could describe as a home for those ‘Norwegians’?
    3 – if you went and spent the rest of your life in Norway would you ever be Norwegian?
    4 – do those Norwegians have the right to continue the existence of the Norwegian people, decided by the Norwegian people and to be the power wielding majority in their own home country?

    Replace the country and people in question with any in the world. Be it Nepal, Ghana, India, Taiwan, Colombia or even Scotland and the Scots.

    Are there different ethnic groups in the world? Do they have the right to choose the future of their countries and their people for the benefit of their people? Is it evil for them to want to do so? Do we not have the same right?

    When peoples mix and collaborate and, ultimately in the fullness of time, blur the distinctions between ethnicities and cultures then it is a truly evolutionary process and can only be healthy.

    Lowering borders, denying a choice to the native people, demonising and even prosecuting those who speak up while giving voter rights to all who have been inserted en masse into the country isn’t beautiful. It isn’t evolutionary. It is the societal equivalent of rape.

  267. Pixywine says: This should provide some background on our political “leaders”.

  268. Pixywine says:

    I think Craig will find that most prisoners are more reasonable and nicer than the average SNP wanker.

  269. Hatuey says:

    Joe, Joe, Joe… you poor tortured beggar.

    Those immigrants are a blessing. They’ll enrich us in a thousand ways, they’ll build infrastructure, work, and pay taxes.

    Everything you say about immigrants was said about the Irish not so long ago. That’s the same Irish immigrants that went on to build bridges, roads, and canals for the country, without much thanks.

    Today the children and grandchildren of those Irish immigrants are lawyers, teachers, scientists, and entrepreneurs.

    You’re such a rudimentary fellow.

    I’d much rather have an immigrant for a neighbour than you.

  270. J.o.e says:


    I notice among their previous shows they have ‘the cult of Saturn’ and ‘Bolshevik Britain’. Going to have to take a listen at these guys as they don’t seem to use the usual conspiracy buzzwords (bullshit).

    Thank you

  271. J.o.e says:

    ‘Those immigrants are a blessing. They’ll enrich us in a thousand ways, they’ll build infrastructure, work, and pay taxes.’

    Many immigrants coming to Europe are from countries whose average IQ is below the level to be considered a responsible adult. Sorry if that is brutal but it is a fact.

    For the rest they will compete and displace the poorer native people in terms of work and welfare (not the middle class progressives) which will be good for big business.

    As for English folk coming to Scotland – well there are others who have better explained the situation than myself.

    Besides – you might notice that my issue isn’t with migration per se. My wife is a fucking immigrant.

    The problem is with the volume of people, the opening of the democratic franchise, the effect on locals and the lowering standards of living – done on a massive scale, to the same tune over the European and European descended world without anyone asking us.

    So fuck off with your twisting, bullshitting false compassionate garbage you lying state tool cnt.

  272. wee monkey says:

    Drugs you say, well, fuck that, try fucking dentists!! local (shit) one is now saying 3 yr waiting list for routine NHS work.
    Of course if you go private….

  273. twathater says:

    @ Nativist Andy 7.12pm the middle class progressive libertarian civic nationalist , your views and Sturgeon’s are spookily aligned and you and her are the reason Scotland and Scots are in the position we are at present where ANYBODY from ANYWHERE can determine the future of our nation without knowing the history, customs or culture of Scotland

    You and your ilk are outright hypocrites where you decry people as nativist to imply they are some kind of racist or bigot , your friend Sturgeon even wanted to change the name of her party because she felt it had the wrong connotation

    Yet you watery progressive hypocrites get so outraged when people talk about Eskimos or Red Indians inferring it is some kind of derogatory term and insist it is insulting to Inuits and Native Americans who are fiercely nativist but that’s okay because they are NOT Scottish and theirs is a different nativist

    When all the incomers buy up all the properties in the Highlands , Islands and Borders perhaps you could tell all our young folk that it is nativist to stop those people coming here and if they want to be able to afford housing maybe they had better think about moving out of Scotland and come back in 25 years and lecture people on how the country should be ran

  274. Hatuey says:

    Joe, my troubled friend, I’m running rings around you without trying. What’s to be done?

    If you look closely, you will see that there was almost zero compassion in my last comment, fake or otherwise. The comment made an entirely cold and economically rational argument for immigration.

    We are waiting for you to provide a response to the point I made about Irish immigrants. You seem to be avoiding the issue…

    It’s possible you’re too dim to even know you’re being a racist. But that point you made about the average IQ of immigrants, well, that didn’t seem very accidental. It’s the sort of thing they (people like you) said about the Irish too, of course.

  275. Liz g says:

    Can I also just point out that Jersey ( as one example ) has some pretty strict laws about who can buy property there and no one absolute no one questions that it’s a racist thing.
    So,with that in mind I agree with Twatthater that it’s reasonable to expect our Goverment to protect our land and resources in similar ways.
    In fact to do so is what we pay them for.

    But we all better start accepting that Scotland needs people and it would be atrocious and not a Scotland I’d fight for if we were to say these people are not of us.
    It seems very much like deflection by the powers that be to be being led into such a debate, and as Auld as methuselah too.

    We don’t need seeded by Westminister ( but that’s a political manoeuvre and not the same thing at all ) that’s for sure and we don’t need to be land banked to be “rewilded ” for the money men either.
    We can comfortably double our population and prosper from it…. It doesn’t matter from where all that matters is that there’s a balance.

    E.G. We absolutely do not need to double the Billionair land owners there is surely nae argument that we don’t have enough land and resources for them…. just about everyone else is good.

    From where? I pretty much don’t care, and those barely literate ones are good too, because I’d take bets their children won’t be, and our only job is to create the conditions that make those kids want to stay, not run off to London as too many have had to do.

    Is that not why we are doing this ?
    A better more prosperus Scotland ?
    Because that’s how it’s done people..
    If the USA had decided that the Native Americans were the only people that could stay or vote on that land then ( their terrible treatment excepted of course ) the USA would not have prospered .
    We need people and people are in the main a good thing …. While England may have issues because they are overcrowded they are not Scotland’s issues.
    Can we no be educated enough to recognise when the politicians are deflecting their lack of management and corruption onto the immigrant population ?
    Have we learned nothing here on Wings ?
    New people are good and necessary for Scotland …. Westminister Power to spoil our immigration will need watching till it’s curbed.
    It really is that simple !

  276. Breeks says:

    I finally caught up with today’s Through a Scottish Prism, and recommend it to all.

    I like to think I have a good grasp of events, so I maybe didn’t learn anything new as such, but still worth watching.

    There was a point however where I noticed a change in my own beliefs. Many months ago, as I recall it was around the time Sturgeon capitulated over Brexit, and people were talking about Civil disobedience and perhaps even a General Strike.

    I don’t think I was ready for that notion at that time. It seemed discordant. I’m not really a “strikey trade unionist type” if you follow me. I’m not right wing either, but say when you see a 1970{s Carry On film giggling about “one out – all out brothers”, as comedy goes, it’s about as unfunny as it gets.

    But during podcast, Mark Hirst touches very briefly on “what we do next”, and suddenly, and unexpectedly, the notions of protest, civil disobedience and national strike have jumped into my head, and are beginning to feel as inevitable as the next stops on the Underground.

  277. Al-Stuart says:

    Chris, Thankyou for quite a difficult polemic ‘toon this week.

    It brings into stark focus the neglect with which gerrymandered Sturgeon runs her club.

    She is about to abolish jury trials to remedy the horrendously low rape conviction levels.
    I wonder exactly what caused her to leave her job as a lawyer under that cloud?

    For sure, now, it is evident that if Sturgeon cannot get decent laws with moral purpose and forensic capability onto the statute books to increase the rape conviction rate, then she simply CHEATS the system. In this case, the Sturgeon-fix-it is to bring about JURY-LESS trials.

    It might be politically incorrect for me to write this, but I do so as a member of one of the following proscribed groups and in self-deprecation…

    I can’t help wondering that if it were a one legged, disabled, trans-gender, lesbian, mixed-race skinhead that was dying of a drug overdose, Sturgeon would be quick enough to gerrymander the laws to weight them in favour of her own partisan pet projects and bring about an instant reduction in drug related overdose deaths.

    If you are a male drug addict and need urgent medical attention, simply self-declare as a transgender woman and Sturgeon will get humane help for you.

    As for Scottish Independence, I think the cat is out of the bag.

    In order to never, ever risk another IndyRef1, Westminster have pressed the big red KERBOOM THE JOCKS button on Boris Johnson’s desk.

    The final solution to Sweaty Jockland?

    Willfully destroy public confidence in the Scottish government, the Scottish Legal system and the Scottish civil service. It’s a very clever thing to do and pretty much check-mate in the effort to kill off the YES movement.

    Alex Salmond warned about the triumvirate of Scottish institution heads being unfit for purpose. Alex was a wee bit wrong there. The current heads ARE fit for their purpose as that purpose is to destroy the Scottish institutions of which they are in charge.

    If you have a scintilla of doubt about the destruction of these once, well respected Scottish institutions, and the end result being to kill of Scottish Independence for 50 years, maybe take a few minutes to read Craig Murray’s final post before his life is put in harm’s way by Nicola and pals sending him to HMP Covid.

    Craig is a brave man.

    These words are genuinely distressing.

    How did we get to this?

  278. Grey Gull says:

    Sarah @10.45 pm
    Thanks. I would like to write to Craig and give my support.

  279. J.o.e says:

    ‘Sturgeon would be quick enough to gerrymander the laws to weight them in favour of her own partisan pet projects and bring about an instant reduction in drug related overdose deaths.’

    Its not Sturgeon’s pet projects. She is following the same playbook as the other liberal politicians in the world. Its as clear as day.

    That’s not to say that the mainstream ‘conservative’ parties are not also playing their part.

  280. Andy Ellis says:

    @twatbrain 1.31 pm

    You’re all over the place here. Nobody with any sense or experience could ever describe me as a friend of Sturgeon or aligned with her party. Your desperate attempts to do so just show how divorced from reality you are. People call you a bigot and a racist because that’s how you come across and the concomitant of your desired outcomes. Happy to help!

  281. Where else? says:

    Don’t trust Michael Gove, deep down himself, the rest of the government and the Crown will never allow Scotland to go independent by making Scottish Westminster MPs redundant.

    There’s absolutely no way Scotland will become an independent country, we lost our chances in 2014 and we will never get one again. The SNP’s policy on ‘Indyref2’ is nothing more than words to help them win their re-election. If the SNP are very serious about making Scotland an independent country, they would have followed Sinn Fein’s tactic which is to become abstentionists and refuse to swear the oath to the Crown.

    Westminster can abolish Holyrood by repealing Scotland acts, no doubt this is hidden within the Tory party’s agenda.

    The whole concept of politics is nothing more than a show, equivalent to sports and soap operas such as Eastenders. Political parties are no different to sports teams and elections are popularity contests. We all get screwed either way because all major parties follow the same agenda.

  282. Pixywine says: a reminder that we are all human.

  283. Graf Midgehunter says:

    Immigration isn’t new Joe.

    All those tribes of ancient Briton must have been really pissed off with the Romans, coming over here with all their funny rituals like washing an’ bathing, roads and that civilisation stuff.

    As for the Saxons, Angles and Jutes, who invited them? Angleland will never catch on.

    The Danes were very naughty, coming over the North Sea and chopping a big chunk out of Angleland. Didn’t last long though, only a couple of hundred years,beginners..!

    Their pals, the Vikings or Norsmen were only passing through. Looking for rich pickings and the odd slave or two. Angleland didn’t have enough so they buggered off to Russland, Byzantine and to Vinland.

    Some Norsmen went south looking for the Riviera and landed up in the northern part of the land of the Franks.

    After a couple hundred years of good wine and cheese they decided to expand their power base and went off to where half of Europe already was, Angelland. The mongrel land.

    They never left, which is why Angelland now speaks angelised French with some germanic bits added on..! Cept they call it English now. 🙂

    As for Scotland, we have our own long and wonderful history which needs to be told. 🙂 🙂

  284. Robert Hughes says:

    pixywine @ 9.11

    Thanks for that video .

    I don’t want to start in on the Covid issue , personally , I feel I’ve said enough on the subject here , but I highly recommend watching that video and defy anyone who does to deny the parallels with what’s happening at an alarming rate all around us .

  285. Judge Quartus de Wet sentenced Nelson Mandela to life imprisonment for `the crime of conspiracy`,

    Judge Leeona June Dorrian sentenced Craig Murray to imprisonment for the crime of `contempt of court`,

    Judge C.N. Broomfield sentenced Ghandi to 6 years imprisonment for the crime of `sedition`,

    Judge Pontius Pilate sentenced Jusus Christ to crucifixtion for the crime of `blasphemy`,

    all made up charges to eliminate political rivals.

  286. Ruby says:

    Re Drugs

    Is the reason why people turn to drugs reserved or devolved?
    Do people turn to drugs due to mental health issues?

  287. Republicofscotland says:

    The National newspaper writes today in a column on Craig Murray’s incarceration, “It was found that the 62 year old’s blog posts contained details, which, if pieced together could lead readers to identify women.”

    I don’t know how the National came up with this conclusion, for it was never pointed out to Craig Murray exactly where his blog posts could’ve led to jigsaw identification of any of the women.

  288. Ruby says:

    Brian Doonthetoon

    Thanks for the link to the Jonathan Cook blog. That is a very interesting read.

    I was wondering if any Scottish MSM journalist had written anything similar?

    If any of them have I will take them off my list of ‘propaganda merchants’.

  289. Republicofscotland says:

    Meanwhile the weasel faced hierarchy of the once independence party the SNP, are at it again, this time they’re blaming the UK Policing minister Kit Malthouse for the deaths of thousands of Scots from drug abuse.

    If Sturgeon et al had acted sooner by just bloody opening consumption rooms and linking treatments to them like they’ve done in the EU for the past thirty-years, we wouldn’t be in this position now.

    But no Sturgeon loves a good finger pointing exercise, even if it cost the lives of thousands of young Scots.

  290. Ruby says:

    I have no interest in the names of the ‘Alphabetties’ because I don’t believe I would recognise any of the names.

    I don’t know the names of civil servants, snp employees or even SNP politicians.

    I can’t see any newspaper outside the UK being interested in printing a list of names that almost nobody recognises. Those who do recognise the names already know their names.

    My interest is in who persuaded these women to make complaints and why they did it.

  291. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @pixywine (9.11) –

    OMG, that is brutal viewing. But vital.


  292. James Che. says:

    Now you see why encouraging and recognising Scots sovereignty, its legal position for the Scots is important,
    As you can go rogue and it NOT be civil disobedience. It’s about Scots having the right to choose whom governs them.
    We may chose to govern ourselves, instead of a devolved government, who knows.
    But we have that right,
    And under those circumstances it cannot be civil disobedience.

  293. Hatuey says:

    Robert Hughes, if you don’t want to start on the covid issue, why start on the covid issue?

    Anyway, I do want to start on the covid issue.

    The idea that the plight of unvaccinated people resembles the plight of those that died at the hands of the nazis is nothing short of astonishing.

    I’m confused by both sides in this debate though.

    If more or less all adults are vaccinated and the vaccine gives the sort of protection they say, why the urgent requirement to vaccinate kids?

    The data suggests statistically negligible numbers of people under the age of 21 will have problems fighting covid without a vaccine. They simply don’t need it.

    As for others, including those I affectionately refer to as anti-vax crackpots, I really don’t care what they do. Why should we? Again, if the vaccine works as well as the data suggests, what’s the problem?

    In terms of spreading the disease, the data tells us you are much more likely to catch it from a vaccinated person in the U.K. today than an unvaccinated person. Trust me on that, I used to be a statistician. (Actually this is a pretty straightforward calculation based on one or two very reasonable assumptions, with everything pivoting on the fact that around 75% of adults have already been vaccinated…)

    Vaccine uptake levels are such that you’re really unlikely to come into contact with an unvaccinated person who has covid. Even if you do, providing you’re vaccinated, you really aren’t putting yourself at great risk.

    As I said, you’re much more likely to catch covid from vaccinated people. There’s 2 primary reasons for that; 1) there’s a lot more of them and they carry and spread the disease just as unvaccinated people do, and 2) because the vaccine works quite well in terms of reducing symptoms, vaccinated people are more likely to catch covid and spread it unwittingly.

    There’s no need for vaccine passports. And there’s no need for kids to be vaccinated.

    There is however a need for more data and transparency on the side effects of the vaccine. At clinical stage 4, the collection of that data is usually live and ongoing. Where is it? (I could say more about this but without data it would only be based on personal and anecdotal experience and that isn’t a good basis for causing alarm…)

  294. John McNab says:

    Liz G:

    “E.G. Any and ALL Unions that Holyrood sign the Scottish people into must be approved by referendum every 25/30 years and failure to hold a vote and gain the consent of the people to continue with said Treaty will automatically end it.”

    Does that proviso also apply to any and all unions that Holyrood wants to sign the Scottish people out of? It also occurs that 25/30 years could be inferred as a generation…

  295. Robert Hughes says:


    You know fine the parallels I refer to are not the physical actions of the Stalinist and Nazi regimes , but the mindset that permitted and colluded with them : such collusion being the only way they could have occurred .

    FFS man in Germany supposedly serious * intellectuals * are proposing camps for the unvaccinated . GERMANY !

  296. Nally Anders says:

    I will be writing to Craig as soon as we have full address details ,thanks for this.
    Also, on another subject (and apologies if already posted)
    can we please get every MSP a copy of Helen Joyce’s most excellent, comprehensive and respectful book ‘Trans’ -when Ideology meets Reality.
    Scroll down to see who has already been nominated and so far 29 MSP will have the book winging it’s way towards them.
    It’s too much to hope that it may form the basis for any debate on the GRA self ID legislation but there can be no excuse for ignorance.

  297. Meg merrilees says:

    Ruby @ 10.22

    I think the main reason for the anonymity of these women is expressly because to name them would reveal that the entire Salmond affair was a political set up.

    Like you, I doubt if I would recognise any of the names, nor could I at this point in time tell you the names of more than approx 3 or 4 SNP MSPs. I definitely would not know the names of any of the staff who work for our dear Leader other than the woman( Private Secretary?/ civil servant) who was interviewed several times during the Salmond investigation at Holyrood.
    NB I am deliberately NOT writing down any names because, who knows, it might enable jigsaw identification!!!!!

    But I am firmly convince that the only reason to retain their anonymity is to protect the current political system in Scotland as to name them would cause its collapse.

  298. Hatuey says:

    Robert Hughes, nobody is going to put anyone in camps. You’re being crazy.

    The worst examples of collusion can be found on the side of the debate that argued for ‘keeping the beaches open’, regardless of the human costs. In that case the “collusion” did in fact lead to mass graves.

    The herd immunity strategy of Spring 2020 (which Nicola and Leitch subscribed to, by the way), will go down as one of the most reckless public health decisions of the post-1945 period.

    We are where we are though… Going forward, I don’t see the scientific argument for vaccinating kids, I no longer see a scientific case for vaccine passports, and we need to see more data on side effects.

  299. James Che. says:

    The unseen side of covid is not about covid at all.

    It is about the British government struggling in ( their eyes) financially,
    To suppress movement and use of public facilities without doubt is a large motivational money saver.

    During that period public use of public transport was drastically reduced.
    Paying teachers to close schools saved the governments financial purse strings also.
    closing and reducing council services saved goverment finances without a doubt,
    Restricting patients and access to hospitals saved money through the NHS.
    Furlough for those that lost work, comes out of public purse strings, the treasury pull this back through stealing pension pots, increasing the age before retiring, raising taxes on vehicles. Etc

    Locking down the country must have saved Uk governments millions of pounds directly and indirectly.
    Suppressing public use of public services has to be a financial game changer for the uk treasury.

  300. Robert Hughes says:

    Well Hatuey ma auld sometimes sparring-partner ( as it goes , it’s only on this subject we disagree ) I don’t think it’s me who is * crazy * for being alarmed at the suggestion of camps for the unvaccinated , rather , the people suggesting it are .

    Sure , I don’t think there’s any imminent likelihood of that happening , in the UK anyway ( though Sturgeon et al could be persuaded it’s a rational recourse for * Transphobes * n SNP critical bloggers ) but how do bad things begin ? When one group of people are demonised , made pariahs , ostracised , have their rights taken away , all , as the video says , under the bogus * Humanitarian * narrative of the State .

    Anyway amigo , I’m glad you at least agree vaccine passports and the vaccination of children are wrong .

    I’ve said from the beginning of this we need to be really attentive to how this situation could be manipulated : nothing I’ve seen since fills me with confidence the we can relax that attention

  301. twathater says:

    @ Nativist Andy (the plank) 8.21am I notice you didn’t respond to any point other than I’m no friend of Sturgeon , you progressive civic nationalist libertarians should never be trusted all you are good for is attempting to undermine and denigrate people who don’t share your FALSE bonhomie

  302. J.o.e says:

    @Graf Midgehunter

    Interesting how you have just compared immigration with historical invasions and hostile takeovers

  303. Sarissa says:

    For those of ypou who have been following the controversy about the trans athlete weightlifter Laurel Hubbard, this is posted without comment:–plus-87kg-fnl-.htm

  304. Andy Ellis says:

    @twatbrain 1.50 pm

    I was busy elsewhere and hadn’t noticed another episode of you chewing a brick in lieu of formualting any rational response (no change there then, eh pal?). There’s nothing false about my bonhomie twatbrain, I just don’t suffer fools gladly. Perhaps you have other good qualities to boast of to try and offset your regressive nativism and otherwise unpleasant personality? Doubtless yer mammy loves you.

    As to your points:

    1) “the middle class progressive libertarian civic nationalist ,

    Middle class?: I guess so. What of it? I’ll always be a tenement Scot to some of course. I come from generations of working class Scots, with a sprinkling of Irish and English in there. First in my family to go to university after a bog-standard Edinburgh comprehensive, BA in England, PhD in Scotland, working ever since in a range of industries. What I’ve got, I’ve worked for, but I’ve never changed my basic beliefs or outlook. I’m not ashamed of what I’ve achieved, or of acknowledging the help I had getting where I did.

    Progressive?: I sure hope so. Unlike your stated position on the issue at hand? HELL YES. Obviously nothing I can say will convince you how regressive the views of you and your nativists are, but such is life. You just can’t kill bad ideas.

    Libertarian? Are you on crack? What have I ever written that would identify me as a libertarian? It is to laugh. Another failed Hail Mary pass on your part to try and “other” someone you disagree with, using a label you patently don’t understand.

    2) your views and Sturgeon’s are spookily aligned

    Utter nonsense, as anyone following my timeline, posts and online history can easily attest. As I said before, unlike snivelling anonymous keyboard warriors like you, it’s pretty easy to verify my history. The same can hardly be said of you can it? My departure from the SNP was pretty public, as were the reasons. I even posted a copy of my membership card cut in half. It will come as some surprise to Nicola that her views are aligned with mine.

    3) “and you and her are the reason Scotland and Scots are in the position we are at present where ANYBODY from ANYWHERE can determine the future of our nation without knowing the history, customs or culture of Scotland”

    Well no, that’s not really down to Nicola is it? It was agreed by Alex Salmond on behalf of the broader Yes movement as part of the Edinburgh Agreement. The outliers here are (and continue to be) you and your nativist chums, who are trying – and failing abysmally by the way – to make a case for changing the widely accepted and popular 2014 franchise. You’re the ones out of step with Scottish history, customs and culture, not us.

    4) “You and your ilk are outright hypocrites where you decry people as nativist to imply they are some kind of racist or bigot , your friend Sturgeon even wanted to change the name of her party because she felt it had the wrong connotation”

    I’m not implying it, I’m stating it. *Some* of those advancing this flawed policy are indeed some kind of racists and bigots, believers in the sub Siobhol nan Gael Blood and soil nationalism that all reasonable Scots should utterly reject. Others are just hapless shills caught up in the “we wuz robbed” schtick, or the deeply insulting and repulsive “Scotland is a colony” line touted by folk who ought to know better. Whether you are one of the former or the latter I have zero interest in finding out. The way you argue and present yourself and others who agree with you makes it very obvious that we’d have little or nothing in common.

    Sturgeon isn’t my friend, as anyone following my timeline would know. I don’t care what she calls her hapless party.

    5) “Yet you watery progressive hypocrites get so outraged when people talk about Eskimos or Red Indians inferring it is some kind of derogatory term and insist it is insulting to Inuits and Native Americans who are fiercely nativist but that’s okay because they are NOT Scottish and theirs is a different nativist”

    The terms you use are derogatory. Not because I say so, or because of political correctness, but because the Inuit and Native Americans have said so. If you don’t see that, one has to wonder what your world outlook even is.

    Doubtless you think the “n” word is OK too? Like so many others in your strange little cabal, you are totally unable to grasp that it is deeply insulting to try and equate the position of Scots today (whether born here or just residents who weren’t) with people in “actual” colonies, or those subject to violence, war and ethnic cleansing.

    You’re no different from no-marks like Alf Baird who continue to push the false narrative of colonisation, despite being unable to explain how their line differs in any material respect from those criticised by Frederick Douglass in the 19th century for making a false equivalence between chattel slavery and the condition of the poor working class in Europe.

    6) “When all the incomers buy up all the properties in the Highlands , Islands and Borders perhaps you could tell all our young folk that it is nativist to stop those people coming here and if they want to be able to afford housing maybe they had better think about moving out of Scotland and come back in 25 years and lecture people on how the country should be ran”

    If we as people want change, we have to vote for it. Having a Renton-esque moment about how shit everything is here isn’t going to help one young person afford a home. If we want an administrations with power to stop housing inequalities, prevent non-nationals holding property and land, we need to either be an independent state, or force Westminster to give that power to Holyrood.

    I have zero problem telling anyone spouting nativist views that they are a nativist. If they’re not voting for independence, I can’t help them. Neither I, nor the overwhelming majority of the population who support the current franchise, are responsible for the lack of political courage, acumen and foresight of the 80% of the population who are Scots born and who could deliver independence in short order if they were convinced it was the only rational choice.

    Moon howling nativists like you are a far bigger and more present danger to the chances of achieving independence than “mainstream” supporters of the existing franchise. The reason none of you can answer Rev. Stu’s existing queries from a few weeks ago isn’t just that you lack the intellectual wherewithal, it’s also that you know it has negligible support. Still, like dogs returning to their vomit you just keep beating that tired, ripped old drum.

  305. Liz g says:

    John McNab @12.02
    ( sorry for the delay. I’ve only just checked back )
    It makes no sense to apply to Unions Holyrood sign us out of, it’s a safety clause on the Sovereignty of the Scottish people.
    To pool some Sovereignty in a Treaty is the way these arrangements work and to keep control of how long it remains pooled should never be left to a Goverment of any stripe.
    Scotland is the ultimate example of why not to do so.
    Keep the Goverment bound by our Constitution in this and we can participate internationally confident that we will never again struggle to leave a nightmare arrangement that’s long stopped being in Scotland’s interests.
    As to 25/30 years being considered a generation ….
    Well strictly speaking a generation is an arbitrary thing and it depends on the subject and context.
    Nevertheless 25/30 years was simply my own serving suggestion and there’s a good argument to be made for 16 years because that’s when voting age is reached and a new “generation ” of voters may want a say…
    Unfortunately I suspect that there are some Treaty’s that 16 years would be too impractical for and would need a longer commitment hence a suggestion of mibbi 25 or 30 years would be a more realistic time frame.
    If your concern was that Westminister would view this as some sort of proof a generation in Scotland is 25/30 years?
    Rest easy…..If we are putting it into OUR Constitution we will have already ended the 1706/7 Treaty of Union and it is therefore none of their business…. they will probably have enough on their plate by then anyway because they lost their cash cow and even if they did spend some time on it why would we care?

  306. Hatuey says:

    Robert Hughes: “ I’m glad you at least agree vaccine passports and the vaccination of children are wrong…”

    Not exactly, squire, I think they’re unnecessary based on a reading of available data, but let’s not fall out over a technicality.

    To be honest though, I like to stress-test ideas on here, my own ideas and those of other people.

    The people I like most on here are the ones I argue with. Go figure.

  307. Robert Hughes says:

    Hatuey .

    Fair enough . I agree this is an excellent forum for ” stress testing ” ideas : I’ve learned a lot and been obliged to question my own assumptions and perceptions many times by reading comments and exchanges of views on here .

    Let’s hope we can continue to do so , not only for those reasons , also for the invaluable light Stuart has shone on the failures of our – alleged – * leaders *

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