Pies Of The Day
Posted on
September 03, 2018 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
It’s been a tough few days for the Daily Record. So maybe we should forgive this:
Let’s just enjoy those pie charts for a moment.
Magnificent work.
The Pie Of The Day runner-up was this guy, btw:
If you weren’t sure, yes that IS a “Rangers” supporter using the USA, Australia, India and Canada of examples of why Scotland SHOULDN’T gain its independence from the UK, and berating someone ELSE for harking back to ancient battles in the past.
Monday’s off to a cracking start, readers.
Sociopaths are always, always lacking self-awareness.
YES
You can smell the fear.
Some Rangers supporters are an embarrassment to the human race.
And when it all goes wrong they’ll blame the refereee or the fourth official or the umpire or the rules or the plastic pitch
But in the case of politics it’s all the fault of the Essenpee
Sos for the early O/T Rev .
Ye sat on yer Erses
Feeling quite Safe
But The numbers are up
And yer losing yer Faith
You stuck by the Union
Ye Spouted their Shite
But we the Grassroots
Knew we were Right
We did the Rallies
The Protests anaw
We stuck to our Belief
Kept wur eye oan the baw
We won the War
on the Online News
We kept it Simple
With our Factual views
You stuck tae yer lies
Yer manipulating Cheating
And Noo were in Front
We still hear ye Bleating
People saw through you
And the Change is on
Soon you and yer Union
Will be dead and Gone
Bill Glen
Well looks like the SNP civil war is over and both sides now just need to focus on the real enemy.
We are, as have just come from a YES/SNP strategy meeting for our next joint venture in Perthshire at Luncarty on 28th September.
Scotland where Now event with Aileen Campbell and William Duguid as speakers.
Let war commence.
Ms Davidson’s timing is impeccable as usual. 😀
‘Rule out referendum’ just as poll reckons folks might just be wanting one after all. You can see what’s got both politicians and the meeja into a bit of a lather though. That thing they’re so afraid of? It’s happening despite their worst efforts to date.
Tick tock.
Oh, for god’s sake!
So according to DR pie-chart Maths 43 + 47 = 100.
“Eh meh, thut’s micthy fleh we-thu peh-chart thingy-meh-boab”, as they would say in Dundee.
His sense of history seems to have stopped at 1690.
Loved the DouGERRARD touch: classy.
And he calls other people zoomers…
Oh I like you Stu!!
What are the chances of No Brexit?
I recently moved back up from London.
It is palpably bad down there now, emptying of EU nationals and ‘smart’ people who are sorting out their right to stay in the EU as former Brits of whatever kind.
Roll on October. No deal is now (in the City) 80% quids in.
Et viola!
The sooner the UK dies the better for all, we could offer a swap on a 1 to 1 basis after indy: 1 sensible English remainer for 1 unionist Scot
Davidson: Rule out Referendum at the bottom of the page will always be at the bottom,I see that she will be doing a book signing I wonder if BBC will take this chance get some answers about where she has been hiding all summer and tory money.
Did Scotland disappear down the rabbit hole into Wonderland after 2014,
“But I don’t want to go among mad people,” Alice remarked.
“Oh, you can’t help that,” said the Cat: “we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad.”
“How do you know I’m mad?” said Alice.
“You must be,” said the Cat, “or you wouldn’t have come here.”
Carroll/Disney honestly couldnae make up the britnat yooneraty,
Mundell,Colonel Ruth,the dog food salesman,Murdo,Tomkins,Clegg,the cluncking fist,the cast of BBC,
Nicola,`get us out of here`.
Brexit will happen @Ruby
Boris and Jacob and all the little rascals will make sure of it and they’ll care not a jot for anybody or anything, their will must be done, this has nothing to do with what voters of any country want or need this is all about them
[…] Wings Over Scotland Pies Of The Day It’s been a tough few days for the Daily Record. So maybe we should forgive this: […]
Interesting to note how the pie chart removes chunks of the YES vote for the *Don’t knows* instead of equal portions of YES and NO
I thought that’s what *Don’t know* meant
Its been very interesting watching and reading over the last few months the ludicrous arguments the British nationalists are putting forward in their opposition to a second indy ref and Scottish independence.
If that rangers fan truly believes the tripe he’s spouting, about the most successful places in the World are unions of peoples like the Germany,USA, Australia, China, India etc.
Then why is the UK leaving the EU, isn’t that also a union of peoples too?
@ronnie anderson 10:20am
Hope you don’t mind, but re-posted your entire comment on MeWe, as I think the poem was richt brawl.
BREXIT looks inevitble otherwise there will be sn English civil war and these are never pretty.
The English press has Boris Johnston making his pitch for leadership and chsllenging May over her Chequers deal.
link to archive.fo
Independence it is then.
When does 43% look like 50%?
On a BritNat Pie, of course. 🙂
The Daily Record makes another Union JackAss of itself.
Must be Monday. 🙂
Stan Wilson Wire in Stan share it , i take it you meant its richt braw lol.
It is remarkable how one poll can send them into such a tailspin. They are nervous and Ruth “no surrender” Davidson’s keek out from under her pile of dark money to demand that we take off the table what the poll suggests people want speaks volumes.
These are turbulent times. Boris is making another play for control over Brexit and in-fighting at this juncture makes a no deal scenario even more likely. They have 8 weeks to agree something if they are going to meet the March 2019 deadline.
Scotland and a united Ireland together in the EU is an attractive proposition. We have Grangemouth container port and if they were to build that bridge we would be hub that would benefit Ireland and Scotland.
I can see why our Yoonish choooms are agitated. Ideas can fly and as ideas go that is not the worst by a long chalk. Boris as PM that on the other hand is a scary thought.
Macart says:
3 September, 2018 at 10:34 am
Ms Davidson’s timing is impeccable as usual. ?
‘Rule out referendum’ just as poll reckons folks might just be wanting one after all. You can see what’s got both politicians and the meeja into a bit of a lather though. That thing they’re so afraid of? It’s happening despite their worst efforts to date.
Tick tock.
BritNat desperadoes, trying to be clever but they just can’t quite seem to get their nasty little act together. . They are trying so hard to help us. We owe them so much. 🙂
I am not inconsiderably happy.
Get it right and we have a 60%+ Yes vote there for the taking
That is all.
What is it with British Nationalists and their dodgy graphs.
Ruth Davidson tried the same dishonest tactics on a recent ‘Beat the SNP’ campaign leaflet.
I have to agree that Daisy Walker’s “Yes we can. Now we must” on the previous thread is a great slogan.
Johnson as PM? Oh yes please – the best recruiting sergeant the Yes movement will ever have. Can we get him coronated and bussed up to Jocko land to address the tartan oiks before March 2019?
Can we Ruthie, please?
Are we approaching yet another ‘once in a thousand years’ opportunity?
😉
Poor Daily Record – should have got a primary 2 child to draw their pies – the ones they have are built on quick sands just like the paper – disappearing down the rabbit hole and good riddance.
On one level, I agree with DouGerrard. Countries achieving independence, and from then on making their own decisions, often doesn’t have much to do with nationalism. I don’t believe the current Scottish quest for self determination has anything to do with nationalism.
Well, not nationalism in the British/English Nationalism style.
However therein lies a typical lack of self awareness. BrItNats don’t see themselves are hard core nationalists. Also, they conveniently forget how many countries have become independent from the UK.
Their pie chart is a completely skewed. The 43% ‘no’ side seems to take up 50% of the chart.
The 47% ‘yes’ plus the 10 % don’t know i.e 57% also take up half of the chart.
Do they really think that their readers are this thick!!
The Trunchbull must have a stock of “No Indyref2” press releases for email to all the usual Yoon meeja outlets at regular auto-send intervals.
Same old shi*e, different day…
Does anyone really think the redcoat and all the other outlets would print an honest vote on their so called polls if it , is for Scottish freedom ??? Of course they won’t they just adjust the numbers to suit their agenda they do not,do honesty and,truth that has to be avoided at all costs even if it means their demise that sums up their bitterness and thei intelligence
Cubby @ 10.28am
You wrote: “Some Rangers supporters are an embarrassment to the human race.”
Back some 40-years ago, my old Sports Editor, the late and much-lamented Ian “Dan” Archer wrote: “Rangers supporters are a permanent embarrassment and an occasional disgrace.”
I think today, we can safely leave out the words “an occasional” and not be accused of character assassination.
I’m wary to drawing parallels between Scotland and Ireland gaining independence. There are many differences in the way things played out in Ireland and the way we hope they will occur here.
But one thing always comes into my mind and it’s worth Wingers considering it with regard to this latest poll and support for independence.
The last democratic test of opinion in Ireland prior to (part of) it achieving dominion status in 1922 as the Irish Free State was the 1918 general election.
Here, the pro independence party Sinn Féin received just 46.9% of votes cast. FPTP and being unopposed in some constituencies gave them 73 of 105 seats.
Because they were unopposed in some seats, the percentage for independence is actually unknown, however across the whole of Ireland it probably wasn’t much above 50%.
I always think it is worth remembering that independence was not the overwhelming will of the people. It was a majority, just. And certainly a majority in the zone which became the Free State.
We live in different times and Scotland will achieve independence through a referendum rather than FPTP WM.
Imagine these pie-chart people trying to divi-up a restaurant bill !
Re;galamcennalath@11.38
Of course those many countries didn’t just ‘become’ independent, they had to fight for it, many were violently opposed by the Britnat trash who had trashed their countries.
I read that had the Britnats known that Australia had had lots and lots of gold, they would never have just handed the country independence without violence. Lucky escape for Australia!
Scotland has oil, and lots more that the Britnats desperately want to hang onto, along with their very dodgy pals around the globe. Thing is, the world is watching so Scotland is to a certain extent protected.
Take nothing for granted though, as has been said many times, a cornered, rabid wild animal like the Britnat state could get vicious.
Yoons would have to Grant that the SNP civil war is General Lee over.
See what I did there? Listening to too many yoons illogical arguments can make your humour deteriorate.
Speaking of illogical arguments. If Scotland is merely a “human construct” whose independence lacks validity then the same must apply to the United Kingdom.
But of course Britnats think the union jack is a magical thing which renders the bearer free of the rules of logical argument.
Everything’s a human construct
It’s a stupid expression, the very flag they shout about is a pretty new human construct, the borders they want to take back control of are a human construct except when Scotland would like to have control of something then the very thing that makes them what they are they accuse us of being
Yoons have problems co operating with rules except the ones they invent for themselves
I blame the referees
Had to look twice, but this image is better than a typical election leaflet from the FibDems or a Leaver handout from the EURef showing Turkey about to join the EU and (godsakes!) Syria waiting in the wings. A Union-Jack-plastered pie chart showing 43% for “no” as visibly bigger than 47% for “yes”? Caramba!
The IPCC must be told ASAP. =cough=
Someone at the DR evidently needs new specs or (more likely) a significant re-calibration of perspective. As the true EU facts begin to register with more and more people, it surely won’t be the last.
Tsk! tsk! I thought you all knew basic unionist maths. The “Don’t knows” are always included in the unionist numbers…along with the dead, the non voting, etc
Simple unionist maths – hence the pie chart.
In the EU, England and Germany live in peace and are fully reconciled.
This is what the DUP, the Loyalists and the Orange Orders fear – peace and reconciliation after war.
So they choose to live in the past and keep the war going, fuelled by songs like ‘We all hate Roman Catholics’ and ‘The Billy Boys’.
I see the short lived #SNPCivilWar was won by the Scotland for Independence faction or was it the Independence for Scotland faction. It was hard to know who was the most civil. I see Ruthies been writing books in between all those surgeries and drawing up policies and comes away with the only policy she has “no to a second referendum”
Oh I am so glad I wasn’t sitting next to that highly numerate individual in my maths class!
My desperate grasp of the subject could have been even worse 🙂
Oooh and STV online ‘news’ has relegated that there pesky poll completely out of sight now.
Just a wee titch panicky mibee?
Germany to be fair is made up of former countries like Bavaria and Italy former countries like Naples and Venice and India of the former Maharajah Kingdoms, even China claims the Kingdom of Tibet
link to heraldscotland.com
More promises .
Any reason the Daily Record was advertising holidays on the Algarve, Portugal in the EU in their dodgy pie chart articles?
Has No surrender Clegg and T Crighton got some time shares there?
I think they should go.
Indeed they do. What they lack in self-awareness they certainly make up for with self-righteousness and self-belief.
There is widespread acceptance of the myth that somehow UKOK is ‘better’ than others. Which for me seems astonishing whether you consider our abysmally low state pensions now, or the evil antics of the Empire in the past, or the worst slums in the 19thC world for its workers.
In a 2016 poll, it was found that ….
44% were proud of the UK’s history of colonialism
… and …
43% said the British Empire was a good thing
BritNat behaviour as to be judged against these underlying attitudes.
Stu, I wish you would tone down the anti-Rangers rhetoric. There are YES supporters who are also Rangers fans, and we need to get them/keep them onside – not antagonise them.
Was the Jackie Bailey calculator used for these “stats”?
We must be told.
SNP now has the 2nd biggest political party membership…but we will still not be invited onto any political programmes…the BBC states that it doesn’t count because they say so!
Pie charts? I’m sure someone could do something with this tune and its lyrics.
link to youtube.com
By the way for those of you too young to know what the tune, “American Pie was all about then watch this:-
link to youtube.com
Some good news!
“Membership boost sees SNP overtake Tories to become second biggest party in UK …. The combined data from the House of Commons Library showed that the SNP has around 125,500 members, over a thousand more than the Conservative Party.”
link to archive.is
That will be volunteers signing up to fight in the #SNPCivilWar? I think not!
‘Human construct’ is just a pretendy phrase used here to appear intelligent. As Dr.Jim points out, it’s a stupid expression, it applies to all human activity.
Scotland has been kept poor and begging for hundreds of years by the Britnats, while they have siphoned away Scotland’s resources and revenues, that is a ‘human construct’ for sure.
I wonder what the SNP membership would have been had we not suffered the terrible losses during the Civil War :-p
I get antagonised when football is used for a 1690 history lesson over a Orange King who murdered Scots in their own country and subdued the pesky Irish to which 2 football clubs in Glasgow wave 2 foreign flags.
If a rangers or celtic fan wishes to discuss football no hassle.
If they want to spout their sectarian Irish stuff, get lost– in my humble opinion
Kevin! Kevin! Someone is trying to steal your thunder. There is another graph generator out there who seems to be procuring your trademark.
It’s the English sense of exceptionalism and entitlement, rather like our chums across the Atlantic.
Stu, I think you should mention Rangers less. That’s hundreds of thousands of voters you may be annoying.
galamcennalath @ 12:59,
Which all goes to show that trying to convince more people over to indy by deriding our imperial past is a complete waste of effort.
If you depend on people going through two paradigm shifts to support “yes”, it’s too big an ask. Too much of an uphill struggle.
Ordinary people in general aren’t that bothered by past global history, they are much more concerned about making ends meet in the present day, and rightly so.
Hence the importance of convincing people that their personal economic interest lies in the better management and ultimate greater prosperity that would come from having full control over our own affairs.
I don’t know which is bigger embarrassment to Scotland thick DR journalists (I use the word journalists loosely) or dense Rangers supporters.
NB not all Rangers fans are anti-independence and dense, nor are all journalists.
These are not pie charts, they‘re cakes. We‘re to eat one and have the other. It‘s the best of both worlds. Simples.
Quite apart from the obvious slewing of the pie chart, that page, or double page is an example of a ‘high on magic mushrooms let’s try a bit of LSD’ graphic artist’s head exploding nightmare.
It’s a bloody mess, and that was before it became juxtapositioned with the lurid ad on the lhs.
Is anyone really taken in by this drivel?
This is just the way my wife works. When she gives me a bit of rhubarb round it always appears to me to be smaller than the bit she gives herself. She assures me however that I am mistaken.
Maybe get her a job in creating charts?
Some history is worth remembering.
At the Calton Gate entrance to Glesga Green, there’s this inscription, ” *On the 3 of September 1787 the famous Weavers’ Strike was brutally put down. 6 were killed and others wounded but the strike was to have a permanent legacy as the start of Scotland’s organised labour movement* .”
Their demands were simple, better wages. Because of the East India’s importation of cheaper Indian muslin, traders had cut weavers’ wages and threatened that more cuts would follow. On 30 June 1787, *thousands of weavers* from the West of Scotland *met on Glasgow. Green and agreed not to accept starvation wages*. They organised a strike and held out for months. Some, starved into submission took the lower rate. The strikers took their webs and paraded them through the streets.
They were shot by the “British” Army.
The UK has never been an equal Union. It was colonisation by stealth and corruption. This is not a Union but a bloody occupation.
This is from The Herald, commemorating the 200 year anniversary of the killings. It fails to mention that after this let down by the establishment, the weavers would later be fighting for not only “a fair pay”, but also political representation, a vote for all (only the gentry had a vote at this time) and an independent Scotland. In 1820 they would later be hanged drawn and quartered.
link to archive.is
Or here for another view:
link to radicalglasgowblog.blogspot.com
Just saying.
Some respect to DouGERRARD please.
Do you have any idea how difficult it is to type with White Gauntlets on while carry a banner of King Billy?
Not only that but attempting to think while hitting the Key Board
with one set of knuckles dragging across the floor is something quite special.
No Contender!
Never will these people think for themselves while a bunch of filthy rich guys in London will do it for them!
We demand that the country next door takes all our money and anything they like for our borders while keeping us free from all accurate information relating to our economy and discussions on our future!
“God save the Obscene”
Previous post was supposed to be rhs not lhs.
On the Rangers/ Celtic stuff: good to see both sides represented on the Dunfermline Forward As One rally on Saturday. Well done guys!
I wouldn’t want the Daily record journalist to be cutting the cakes in my house – given how he can’t get the angles right of the slices fair 😉
Aldo_macb says:
3 September, 2018 at 1:25 pm
Stu, I think you should mention Rangers less. That’s hundreds of thousands of voters you may be annoying.
I’m sure that those Rangers fans that support independence have a great sense of humour. The other lot are just miserable gits and bigots that get seriously offended if you even mention “Scotland”. 🙂
Isn’t it interesting that the BBC has yet to cover this poll?
We can probably gauge the response of Westminster better from the BBC’s coverage than any other media outlet.
Stunned silence! he,he,he!
Funny how they NEVER mention how much the NO vote has reduced since 2014.
@Sandy Thomson says: 3 September, 2018 at 1:00 pm:
” … Stu, I wish you would tone down the anti-Rangers rhetoric. There are YES supporters who are also Rangers fans, and we need to get them/keep them onside – not antagonise them.”
Well no, Sandy we do not need to tone down anything in regards to Rangers FC and their fans.
It is the Rangers fans who support that team for their football who need to do something about how they perceive the Football club and its relationship with the Loyal Orange Order. By sitting in the same ground with these people and not speaking out about the evil of sectarianism they condone it.
The team is not the problem for the problem begins with the ownership, continues through the management and is reflected by the fan base.
If Rangers FC PLC was only about football these fans would have a point – but Rangers FC PLC is not just about football and one look at the directors box on match day at Ibrox tells the story of what Rangers FC PLC is really all about and it sure as hell isn’t about football.
Like the other lot that waves the Irish Tricolour, and who also hanker after places in the English/British leagues, their basic loyalties lie well outside Scotland and both would head off to England at the drop of a ball by a referee after a stoppage for injury.
OK. I am a rangers supporter. I contribute annually to Wings. I have my Wings tammy my Scotland and Yes bracelets. I am a signed up customer to I-,Scot. Managed Glasgow, Dumfries and Bannockburn. Missed Inverness but getting ready for Edinburgh. As stated in a previous post there are thousands of independence supporting Rangers fans. Forget the knuckle draggers.
@Hamish100 says: 3 September, 2018 at 1:08 pm:
” … If a rangers or celtic fan wishes to discuss football no hassle.
If they want to spout their sectarian Irish stuff, get lost– in my humble opinion.”
Bang on the money there Hamish100. If they keep their football loyalty to the football that’s fine. When the football loyalty involves political motivation then it has strayed away from football and they can have no complaints when the non-football stuff they get involved with fights back.
All they need to do is to get their noses out of the non-football activities their clubs or their clubs fans are involved it and discourage the club and its fans from non-football activities and people outside football will act accordingly.
Robert J Sutherland @1.26pm
I refer to the last paragraph in your post.
That’s why it is important that independence supporters do not give any credence to the ridiculous GERS figures. The Scotland in union site uses these figures to mislead the Scottish public. As does the Britnat media.
Some time ago read a book called “”France: A Nation on the Verge of a Nervous Breakdown” by an Englishman living in France and, to be fair, contributing actively to local politics as an elected representative. I thought his book an interesting view from a “critical friend”, with positive as well as critical comment. But I had a few wry smiles when he criticised what he saw as French “exceptionalism”. Seen that term used of any other nations lately ? No ? Really ?
On a slightly different note, Keith Lowe’s highly (and generally justifiably) acclaimed “ The Fear and the Freedom” draws a distinction between nationalism and regional separatism – Scotland being an example of the latter. If he has noticed the initials SNP, it seems that he hasn’t quite sussed out what the N stands for. Or, is it the case that English commentators and historians can comment with balance and insight on the multifarious issues of national identity everywhere except in their own backyard ?
A further thought is that, if Scotland, and presumably Wales and NI, are regions of the U.K., is England then not merely a region rather than a country ? Let’s hope FIFA don’t read Mr Lowe’s work.
May I respectfully point out that this sectarian nonsense is of no interest outside of the West Coast it simply does not figure. We have greater battles on our hands I am sure there are yessers and indeed nos on both sides.
Ruth the Mooth
Rule out killing disabled people,
Rule out taking Dark Money,
Rule out the Rape Clause,
Rule out being a liar
and a host of others and maybe,just maybe, someone would listen to you.
Aye, according to britnat daily record pie charts a britnat 47% or even 43% will always have 50% of the pie. Bloated britnats cannae see past their fat bigoted gut.
One other wee point on Ms Davidson’s statement. Which is basically the only statement she makes on the only policy she’s allowed to have.
No First Minister of ANY party, could or should EVER be allowed to rule out self government. Just to go over the basics? Scotland is in a partnership (YES! I know!). A deeply uneven one to be sure, but still a partnership. If the actions of the significant other threatens the well being of the former, then it is the duty of the First Minister to consider ALL options to maintain the economic, political and societal safety of ALL of the population in their care.
What NO First Minister can do is effectively bin an option because it doesn’t suit their party or personal agenda. Especially if that option has the potential to avert a great deal of hardship for the population. They may not want to use it, but they cannot bin it out of hand with the reasoning…. squirrels.
Kinda why Ms Davidson isn’t fit for the day job tbh.
Ach, as we often say, zoomers gonna zoom.
I’m just quite sad that we aren’t looking at 60% by now in support of independence.
But when we see the regular contortions and nonsense to defend the Britnat establishment, any logic is sacrificed.
I’m very sure the various parties private polling is in favour of independence, I’m also cynical enough to surmise it’s why Davidson is on her book tour on our dime, to up her profile south of the Border.
If only we could be lucky enough to get rid of her, to a place where media constructs are appreciated, her tank riding would go down big style in England.
Cairnallochy@2.25pm
“Is England then not merely a region rather than a country”
A good point I have made many times to Britnats when they say Scotland is not a country. I usaually say – try telling the English in England that England is not a country and see how you get on with that ”
Britnats perpetually confused over what is a country and what is a Union.
@IZZIE
I guess perhaps where you live IZZIE you may not see or hear much about sectarianism I don’t know but I can assure you it pervades Scottish society in all corners of our country, Ruth Davidson has based her entire party and campaigning approach on it, you don’t believe that all people in the North east of Scotland who vote Tory for example do it because they believe in Tory policies
Half the Tory councillors in the North east are on the offenders list for their sectarian or racist Tweets and blogs, all supporters of Ruth Davidson or Murdo Fraser who is a prime instigator of it
I’m afraid this badness is widespread they just used to keep it more secret but it’s getting louder
That’s a really gorgeous “with brexit” pie chart. 47% smaller than 43%, weird lines all over the place, inconsistency of colour. A real triumph.
Macart says:
I agree. However British Nationalists will see the role differently.
The Secretary of State for Scotland historical was supposed to be Scotland’s representative in the WM cabinet. Some did take that role seriously, however more recently they simply became the agent in Scotland for the WM government.
With the advent of devolution, I think Labour (who assumed they would be in charge for ever) saw the First Minister and Executive’s job to be ensure Scotland pretty much followed the London line. Some latitude, but Scotland wasn’t to get too deviant or assertive.
No one nor nothing was ever supposed to put Scotland’s interests above the UK’s. Thinking like that is verboten in the BritNat mind.
If the Unionists win Holyrood 2021 they will undoubtedly ensure future First Ministers are again London’s representatives in Scotland.
I certainly hope we are out of the UK before then anyway.
Re Piechart graphic : Indeed if you were to measure the surface area the 47% would be smaller than the 43%..odd thing advanced maths innit..
Fmqs is Thursday and most likely Ruth Davidson will demand no second independence refurendum and Leonard will likely go on about NHS Tayside to dodge the hole Davidson will fall into on the independence question.
@ IZZIE
Have to echo what Dr Jim says, it’s all of our business in Scotland, ignore the tenor of this debate at your peril.
Do we ignore what is going on down south? Ramping up of right wing, xenophobia, islamophobia? It’s all shit, and it spreads, if decent people don’t condemn it.
Slab and Tories have deliberately courted the OO vote, in defence of the Union, for the first time in my memory, an OO Member holds a Tory Councillor position.
Do you have any idea what has gone on in Northern Ireland in the recent past? You think that can’t happen here?
What you point out isn’t respectful. It’s dismissive as not figuring, or of import. I can assure you it is. I get the impression from that comment, you either haven’t been reading WoS very long, or you have missed quite a few articles that touch on the subject.
I’m interested in all parts of Scotland, not just where I live.
WGD ….
” 52 and rising …. That’s where we are without any formal campaign, when those who don’t live and breath politics have yet to engage with the issues. And it’s the independence movement which has the grassroots organisation, the enthusiasm, and the positive case to make. “
I completely agree with this. After years of relentless anti Scottish/SNP/SG propaganda we are sitting ~50:50.
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
Personally, I think it’s time to fire up Yes2.
@Returnofthemac says: 3 September, 2018 at 2:13 pm:
” … OK. I am a rangers supporter.”
Yes, Returnofthemac, and no disrespect to what is probably the vast majority of Rangers FC PLC fans who are there to support ONLY a football club. Thing is if Wingers ignore the Knuckle Draggers, or anyone else does so, including Police Scotland, The SNP or any other Scottish political party or organisation, it plays right into their raison d’être.
The club owners and management have proven to not be interested in eradicating the sectarianism that has always dogged the club. They only pay lip service as the sectarianism fraws in customers.
There is only one section of Scottish society that can make the club owners and management sit up and take notice and that is the fans who support the club as football fans and for football only.
They, if they act together can make it abundantly clear to the owners and management that it is in their best interests to eradicate sectarianism or lose the decent football supporters of the club. The decent supporters are the ones who can cure the problem but they will not do so by ignoring the problem.
If the decent support ignores the problem then the decent support have become part of the problem.
You know the old Scots saying, “Gin ye flee wi the craws ye micht bi shot iz a craw”.
@galamcennalath
That’s pretty much their remit right enough. It’s also why they got canned by the majority of the electorate over the past decade.
Labour’s only interest is what is good for Labour? And, of course, VERY selective demographics. They don’t defend the interests of ALL the population without fear or favour. Mainly just those who suit. Much like Ms Davidson and her party? It’s why they’re currently deemed unfit for government in Scotland. They put party and personal interests before the needs of the population.
What really grinds their gears is that in this instance, one of the options available with the potential to erase a whole slew of problems and hardships facing the population, is a main objective of the current sitting party of government. That’s got to nip and mainly because they didn’t and indeed couldn’t think of it at all.
It also doesn’t help that this same Scottish government has been seen to honour and put first, their end of a pledge and settlement from four years ago. Again, mainly whilst Labour and their Conservative buds have gone out of their way to prove just how self centred, demographically selective and insular they truly are.
The Scottish government have in the past four years proposed both full fiscal autonomy and defended Westminster’s own devolution settlement through the Brexit crisis. It is the establishment parties that have done their utmost to trash devolution and the idea of partnership in favour of party political pissing contests.
No one forced the Conservative government to take the actions they have and no one forced Labour to jump into bed with their idiocy. These two consenting grown ups did it all by themselves.
Their choice.
No essenpee baderry involved. Not at Westminster or Holyrood over the entire omnishambles. They were left in no doubt in vote after vote that their, (and by extension our), input was not required throughout the whole sorry mess.
Fair enough. So long as they’re aware that they’ve simply owned responsibility for the entirety of the current constitutional screw up, then I’m fine with that. 😉
What the Scottish public has to say though? That will be heard and I’m not entirely sure either Labour or Conservative will be thrilled at what they get told.
robertknight says:
3 September, 2018 at 11:48 am
The Trunchbull
Ruby replies
LOL.
Colonel Trunchbull
The Trunchbull has gone!
link to tinyurl.com
Of course this poll result (release) could be a sneaky attempt to manipulate hard NOs into supporting another EuroRef. Many as we know voted leave, but if they thought their precious union was at risk, some of them may well be persuaded to change their minds on Brexit.
It’s a wee bit stinky, coming so soon after the much publicized warning that a hard Brexit would lead to Scottish independence.
Quite convenient timing, again. Something smells a bit fishy. Is the public being softened up for an absolutely awful (neither in nor out) deal that May hopes to secure?
Just saying. 🙂
Robert Peffers@3.50 Yes Robert I agree . My point was in trying to persuade our card carrying loyalist friends over to the Independence side . I think that is a bridge too far.
IMHO, the British establishment does not want a hard brexit. However, it has a real problem with the hard brexiteers digging their heals in, and HMG may be cynically trying to soften them up a little, by playing the Scottish Indy card. Sure, some hardliners would rather see Scotland go, but many will waver if they think the will loose Scotland.
I guess I just don’t trust opinion polls any more. 🙂
I have to second IZZIE
Having spent 34 years of my life in Shetland, I had never come across Sectarianism until I came to work in Glasgow and Lanarkshire in my mid 30s. As in literally never heard of it, apart from maybe on the TV Wur aa Doomed News. “Scotland’s shame” it is not. Difficult as it may seem, it doesn’t exist in large swathes of the nation.
Was completely nonplussed by it. It’s just WEIRD. Doing leaflets you can’t use green, or blue, or gold (wtf!) or purple (O…..K….). Just totally weird
Never mind the first Orange March I saw. Weird AND noisy!
“May I respectfully point out that this sectarian nonsense is of no interest outside of the West Coast it simply does not figure.”
Sadly, IZZIE, this is not the case: count the number of coaches heading out of Aberdeen to support either of the two big Glasgow clubs on a matchday. I hardly think it’s just for the quality of the football.
They won’t be happy with this…….
link to inews.co.uk
British Nationalists extraordinarily angry today at people changing their minds and deciding to vote for Independence after the realisation they’ve made a mistake and decided to correct it
I find that very strange that folk should be so angry about changing your mind because those same people said they were the silent majority in 2014 so does this mean the silent majority are all moving to YES and a warm welcome to you if you are one of those people
If you are a NO to YES why not share your reasons with us here on Wings we’d love to hear from you and what it was that made you realise it was the right thing for our country to do
C’mon join in the company’s great and maybe we can learn something from you that’ll help others change their minds too
FAO Daft Kevin:
You need to react to this my friend,
I’m not trying to start a ‘Civil War’ within the Unionist Movement, but if you let them steal your thunder like this they’ll know they can get away with it, and before long they will start selling ‘Daily Record Dog Food’
I suggest a graph with lots of coloured squiggly lines (this is my favourite type kev ) showing the catastrophic drop in Daily Record sales over the past five years.
Failing that, you can always try phoning your friends at the BBC, who are always keen to get economic experts with successful business backgrounds like yourself (chortle) to come on their shows, to talk about the breaking political events that Scots want to hear about, like what Nigel Farage thinks of Kate Hopkins latest tweet. I’m sure they’d be delighted to hear your expert analysis of the latest polling data, as long as you throw in a few SNP bad references.
@ Luigi,
I share your caution about polling results being used to manipulate rather than inform the voter, but if memory serves me right, I’m sure there has been polls done in the past that showed soft No voters in Scotland saying that they would reevaluate their vote if Scotland looked like it may be taken out of Europe.
I’m sure this poll was commissioned because the group (can’t remember their names) knew that this result was likely.
Just received the monthly reminder from Westminster’s State debt collector, aka ‘TV Licensing’, that there is no TV Licence at this address.
Nor is there a shotgun licence, a pilot’s licence, an HGV Licence, a PSV licence, a licence to drill for oil, or any of the hundreds of other licences required for a huge range of activities in the UK, at this address.
None of the agencies which issue these licences ever send me letters, far less on a monthly basis. Nor would any of them even dream of beginning the letter with the words ‘You know. We know.’, or further on say,
‘So you can expect a visit from our Enforcement Officers’, or,
‘Ignore this letter and an officer may visit soon’.
And this is before Brexit begins and European human rights legislation ceases to apply in the UK.
At a guess, I’d say Westminster will be enforcing a helluva lot more after Brexit.
I’ve decided to get into the cryptocurreny market, not really fixed on a name yet but jimbos is currently the working name I’m using. You will be investing in and receiving cryptocurrency in the form of precious gems, be aware these gems may look like cheap plastic pap but that is the magic of this investment, no one will steal them because of their apparent low value.
Please note that during the issuing period nobody will be allowed to take these to any experts as this would be outside the terms of the agreement and would effectively be undermining the issue and talking down the product. And be aware these gems have trackers and our lawyers are watching you.
Even without Brexit, the No vote suffers a drop of 8%, down from 55% to 47% !
With Brexit the drop is 12%
Whatever way you look at it, you can now see clearly why the Unionist Cabal, have been so rabid recently.
Their internal polling would have been picking up this drop in their own support.
While I do respect Tinto Cheils point I spent 30 years teaching in Dundee I can’t remember one pupil expressing sectarian views young people are not asked when they meet socially what school they went to. This I am afraid is a west coast problem an a distraction.
Righty, the issue of sterlingisation is coming up as it will, and there’s actually a lack of understading “out there”, so there’s an article by Antonelli of Glasgow Uni in the FT from April 2014, you’ll have to search for “A currency union would be best for all of Britain” probably first link up, as it won’t archive. But here’s an important part of it:
“Of course there are alternatives to a currency union. However, we should not pretend these are without costs. An informal monetary union whereby Scotland adopted sterling should be concerning to the UK. Scotland is not to the remainder of the UK as Panama (which informally uses the dollar) is to the US: would the UK really wish 10 per cent of its money supply used informally on its doorstep? A separate Scottish currency would be viable, but we know countries linked by flexible exchange rates are not insulated from each others macroeconomic risks, especially where there are close trade and capital flow links.”
There’s quite a lot needs adding even to that, but it’s a bit personal opinion, like:
1. This means Scotland being sterlingised i.e. an informal currency union can affect the Bank of England, currency, interest rates, even rUK economy – without the BoE having any input into Scotland’s macroeconomic decisions.
2. Money supply of the BoE and the rUK can be affected (would take a long time to explain). Even if Scitland ran our own currency in parallel and issued currency notes etc. (my favourite option to start with – effectively a dual currency).
3. Generally speaking I’d say Scotland would be BETTER insulated than the rUK, which is I accept counter-intuitive. A reason being Scotland would be setting its macroeconomic policies to suit Scotland’s ideals and economy, but the rUK would have set its and might, even in fairly small ways, have to modify its to suit, which could disrupt its own “plan”. If it ever finds one.
And as a general observation as a poster initials AG would say, put 5 economists in a room and you get 6 different opinions. And there’s a reason for this which I’d say is that economics is both a science and an art, a reason perhaps why both science and arts faculties in some Unis give a degree and masters in economics.
So when an economist says “it won’t work” – that’s often an opinion, an artists impression, not a scientific observation.
manandboy I received my monthly letter looking through the envelope there a big red patch so I can ignore it as usual , the other letter I received today bloody annoyed me 13 days late in paying NLC council tax and I get a Lawyers letter for last month 13/8 the feking tax was payed on the 13th Labour council costing us more money .
I see the Record did eventually fix the poll numbers. 🙂
Wings makes you fly
“May not be too scale”
Sorry it’s the BBC. 🙁
Can we get confirmation from the Party?
“We are many. They are few.”
link to bbc.co.uk
@IZZIE: I agree it’s a distraction but sadly it is not exclusively a West of Scotland problem: examine the origins of Dundee FC and Dundee United (originally Dundee Hibs) and Heart of Midlothian and Hibernian in Edinburgh, for example.
Sectarianism in its Orange form has a high incidence in former mining areas, one reason Arlene Foster appeared in Cowdenbeath in the Kingdom of Fife.
Okey-doke, I suggested in The National people go for 2 x £25 so they get two flags.
link to indiegogo.com
” £10,670 GBP raised by 368 backers
85% of £12,500 flexible goal
3 days left”
YES We Can!
Better …
link to commonslibrary.parliament.uk
First thing in his feed is a retweet of the odious Brian Spanner, no need to read any further to understand this one.
Also, why is that Unionists like him (so not all Unionists) on’t understand that 1) they are the form of Nationalism they despise, all Empire tinged rose coloured glasses and anti-foreigner xenophobia and 2) only a percentage of Yes voters (and No voters for that matter) are Old Firm supporters. Difficult to see past your on biases I suppose.
Who was the obtuse mind that designed the first pie chart? Does this individual have any sense of proportion? That 43% appears to be like the miracle of the fish and the bread, it multiplies. The 47% plus the 10% don’t even make a 50% of the chart, looking at the lines of the flag.
Bizarrely, a whole section of the NI cross seems to have vanished too. Could this be a subtle admission that NI is not going to remain in the UK for very long? Looking at the completely different blue used for the UJ pie chart and the color of the saltire, one would be forgiven for thinking that Scotland is no longer represented in the flag…
I have never understood what is the real advantage of dumbing down the readers by getting them to think that everything is tickety boo and that the support for independence is not as high as it really is. Is it that the owner of the newspaper has vested interests in brexit and is concerned that the naked truth may actually stop brexit?
with no brexit
yes vote is down to 43%, 2% less than the actual result in 2014
no vote is down to 47%, 7% less than the actual result in 2014
we are still behind but we have definitely narrowed the margin
this is also the 1st indication that many here have been predicting, brexit will cause voters to switch from no to yes.
caution
1. i’d like to see the actual tables indicating what the exact movement from no to dk and yes
2. I dont know this polling company or its methodology. it doesnt have a track record to compare against or indeed other polling companies results.
3. I’m unsure of the questions wording and format of questioning
4. this poll is for a future event, brexit, it has not happened yet. certainty will only happen after the GE in nov
however, it is a fill up and very welcome after the recent deluge of snp bad, and I for one am a happy bunny today 🙂
I’ve just been reading all the dummy spitting tweets about momentum winning 8 seats of 9 at the NEC elections.
From what I can see members voted for the people they wanted in BIG numbers. Why are so many of the Blairites getting so upset with a democratic vote.
I must be missing something?
As always:
link to scotgoespop.blogspot.com
Things are moving along nicely I would predict much more outrageous conduct from the Regime.
Time for another allegation against a leading pro independence type.
Anyway can someone on here help I’m making a list of countries who became independent from England and then asked to return to English control just a rough figure needed.
Valerie @ 349 ‘do you have any idea about what has gone on in NI in the recent past?’ Well my brother in law was a Royal Marine Commando who took part in the breaking up of the dirty protest in the ‘Kesh’ He said they were cheered by the Protestant prisoners the one and only time. My closest friend’s husband was interned there and his take on how the protestant para military forces were used by the British government as agent provocetuers was an eye opener. He moved to Scotland and could not believe how he was able to befriend an member of the IRA because it did not matter. Hence my statement that sectarianism is a distraction. However heart felt the belief we cannot let this hinder our quest for a free Scotland
Deltapoll Scotland tables available here, click on page for pdf
link to deltapoll.co.uk
@Jason Smoothpiece
Just for clarification. Is that countries that want to to return to being controlled by another country, or countries that Brit Nats believe would be better places if control returned to Westminster.
I ask because these Brit Nats seem to believe Scotland would become some third world country without Westminster control. It would be like the opening scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail (bring out your dead), if I were to believe their predictions.
Just saw a Walkers crisp advert on Tele – the Scottish region prefers pickled onion , the welsh region beef, of course we then go on about the South West (England), Midlands of (England) etcetera.
Almost racist- we don’t exist
link to walkers.co.uk
Spot your region of England!!
For all you ‘wingers’ who do twitter:
Go onto revs twitter feed and there’s a thread that shows Richard Leonard and a few other Labour types (including Freddy Parrot Face ) and see if you think the tall guy standing at the back with ginger’ish hair, is the very same guy who is in the picture Leonard is holding showing a crowded Scottish Train (supposedly)
It even looks like he is wearing the same shirt!
Might just be witnessing another Slab own goal.
Sectarianism
Why ?
Divide, and Rule!
End of.
It’s always been encouraged. That’s what tabloids are for.
So, in summary…
British Nationalism = Patriotic & Commendable
Scottish Nationalism = Jingoistic & Reprehensible
Any questions? No? Good! Glad that’s sorted.
@yesindyref2
Thanks for the tables.
Very interesting that they did not survey people who were under under 18 years old.
That means Yes will be even higher.
@yesindyref2 says: 3 September, 2018 at 5:26 pm:
” … Righty, the issue of sterlingisation is coming up as it will, and there’s actually a lack of understading “out there”, so there’s an article by Antonelli of Glasgow Uni in the FT from April 2014″
Aye! There sure is, “a lack of understading out there”, Yesindyref2. Most of it fostered by people like. Antonelli of Glasgow Uni in the FT. There’s big dollops of Westminster propaganda in that bit you so kindly quoted for us.
So let’s have a wee look at some of the misleading pish and lies.
” … An informal monetary union whereby Scotland adopted sterling should be concerning to the UK.”
What UK would that be after the UK has just split up?
Scotland is a kingdom – as is the Kingdom of England. They are legally the only two equally sovereign kingdom in the bipartite United Kingdom.
A bipartite United Kingdom which legally ends in the, “Status Quo Ante”, of a return to the situation as was their legal positions before the Treaty of Union came into force on 1 May 1707.
That is a return to BOTH kingdoms of the United Kingdom being independent kingdoms and the end of the United Kingdom that the Treaty of Union formed on 1 May 1707.
Then it goes on to quote this utter pish, ” … Scotland is not to the remainder of the UK as Panama (which informally uses the dollar) is to the US:”
Your tooting it isn’t because the only two kingdoms that formed the United Kingdom have just split up and the United Kingdom has legally ended.
So it then goes on, ” … would the UK really wish 10 per cent of its money supply used informally on its doorstep?”
More pish – In the first place there cannot be a United Kingdom when the only two partner kingdoms that it was composed of have just split up.
In the second place the Pound Sterling is as much the currency of The Kingdom of Scotland as it is the currency of The Kingdom of England.
It says so in the Treaty of Union that created the United Kingdom. Furthermore, the, so called, Bank of England was Nationalised in 1946 by the parliament of the two partner United Kingdom and it is thus not exclusively the property of the Kingdom of England, (which Kingdom of England Parliament has not existed since the 30 April 1707.
There will be no legally elected Parliament of England on the day the United Kingdom Parliament ends. Westminster is the joint United Kingdom Parliament and that will have just ended.
Show me just one Member of the existing Parliament of England?
However, Let’s continue with this idiotic farce:-
Next this, (cough!), Expert continues, ” … A separate Scottish currency would be viable, but we know countries linked by flexible exchange rates are not insulated from each others macroeconomic risks, especially where there are close trade and capital flow links.”
This is total mince and depends upon people being stupid enough to have believed the pish the numptie has attempted to claim as the legal situation – thing is it is NOT the legal situation.
And YOU claim. ” … There’s quite a lot needs adding even to that, but it’s a bit personal opinion, … “.
It is pointless continuing to attempt further analysis for this person’s take on the matter is totally wishful thinking.
Quite simply the United Kingdom is exactly what its title says it is A United Kingdom that resulted from The Treaty of Union of 1706/7 and there are only two kingdoms with their representatives signatures on the Treaty.
If that were not enough legal proof then consider this – There are two royal seals on that document One is the seal of the Monarch of the Kingdom of England and the other is that of the Monarch of Scots – that is the monarch of Scots – not of Scotland: Go Figure.
Now, here’s a thing – just why are you attempting to push this pack of sheer Westminster Establishment propaganda here on an Scottish independence blog?
Just whose side is it you really support? Your false flag is showing again, yesindyref2
Hamish100 @ 7.12 pm
Spot your region of England!!
_____
That’s coz Walker’s are “Celebrating 70 years of the Nation’s Favourite”, complete with added Butcher’s Apron.(More from Hamish’s initial link.)
Which ‘nation’ would that be, I wonder?
And of course it comes as no surprise to remember that Walker’s ‘front man’ for a good (?) many tear’s was a Captain of the Ingerlund football team.
No further comment necessary.
@Robert Peffers
Very sorry, got the wrong name (mushed his first name and end of surname), it’s Anton Muscatelli who served on Calman but was and is probably an Indy supporter. In any case he’s been good for the economics case:
link to businessforscotland.com
jfngw @ 7 pm
I think they want to keep us to protect us from ourselves.
The result of the count is now in countries which become independent from England and want to return to English control is…..nil. Amazing.
The Walkers thing doesnt seem to include Northern Ireland either.So is it not part of “the nation”? That’ll upset a few knuckle-draggers.
Even stranger, according to the FAQ on their website:
“This promotion is open to UK/ ROI legal residents aged 18+. ”
Odd beast this “union”…
@rp
harsh
unnecessarily so
the currency question will come up, no question
a discussion on here wouldnt do any harm. i am not an economist but there are many very qualified to inform and educate the many readers WOS has about this subject
your beef seems to be about the correct terms that should be used when referring to Westminster and Holyrood, ie rUK and Scotland and not UK.
fair enough robert, but with respect, it’s possible to make yer point without becoming insulting and spoiling the thread.
The following was on WOS twitter :
“LBC Poll: 70% of Brexiteers are happy to leave the EU even if it means longer queues at ports and airports border control. And more than half want to leave even if it means the cost of food rising significantly (54%) and the UK goes into recession (51%)”
—————————————————————–
It does make you question whether chaos is the ultimate objective of some of those ‘ordinary people’ who are so determined to leave irrespective of predicted negative consequences. If that is not a rational conclusion then the alternatives are extreme stupidity , extreme xenophobia or some extremely delusional obsessive belief in the possibility of returning to the former glory (not) days of the British Empire……minus the Empire .
Problem is why must the rest of us have to suffer when we are not infected with these same symptoms being displayed in those who are clearly showing signs of having been contaminated with this extreme Brexit madness.
It seems that , for some, the notion that one’s betters know best is being embraced and somehow just accepted minus any challenge to the potential catastrophic consequences. Just as Trump supporters are buying into his American ‘dream’ so too are the brexiteers buying into the Tory / UKIP Brexit ‘dream’.
If this is democracy in action, where the blind, dumb and selfish are being grabbed by the balls into a pit of shit by those assumed ‘betters’, who are clearly complicit in some form of combined self serving questionable ulterior motive in so vehemently trying to engineer such an extreme cliff edge Brexit, then I say screw democracy because it is clearly only serving those who should have their democratic rights withheld in the form of being denied a vote. …for both their and our safety.
Because if you are told that potentially both your life and that of your family’s plus your country will be affected very much to your and their detriment , solely as a consequence of your voting to leave the EU and you STILL want to leave, then there should be a serious question mark as to your mental ability to make any informed judgement now or in the future….especially one that affects other people’s lives.
The #NotInMyName is even more relevant now because this shit is getting real …..of course we do know there is an alternative to this do we not……..at least for us living in Scotland…………though Britnat Ruth Davidson would prefer we go down with the good old HMS Rule Brittania cause that was we voted for in 2014 …..was it not ??
Glad some other Scots have now concluded that tis perhaps more beneficial for Scotland to be Better Apart than Better Together from it’s dominant neighbour.
A dominant neighbour who are currently happy to be ruled and controlled by both charlatans and clowns , and who seem intent on precipitating not only their own self destruction , but are also intent on destroying the future hope and prosperity of those of us who are fortunate enough to be somewhat more wary and less inclined to be beguiled by those chancers advocating dubious false Brexit promises.
#IndyRef 2……..Yes ?…..has to be a YES now.
James Westland says:
3 September, 2018 at 8:10 pm
The Walkers thing doesnt seem to include Northern Ireland either.So is it not part of “the nation”? That’ll upset a few knuckle-draggers.
Even stranger, according to the FAQ on their website:
“This promotion is open to UK/ ROI legal residents aged 18+. ”
Odd beast this “union”…
Yip– do you blame their geography teachers or the SNP?
@Patrick Roden
I think they did include 16-17 year olds, their demographic tables for the age groups give it as 16-24.
@Tinto Chiel says: 3 September, 2018 at 5:52 pm:
” … examine the origins of Dundee FC and Dundee United (originally Dundee Hibs) and Heart of Midlothian and Hibernian in Edinburgh, for example.”
You are wrong, Tinto, and I’ve posted the real history here on Wings several times.
Let’s do it again, shall we?
The History of Hibernian FC is began in St Patrick’s RC Church in the Canongate of Edinburgh. The whole idea sprang from the efforts of an RC Lay Brother in Edinburgh in an effort to help prevent the sectarian troubles in Edinburgh and Leith due to the many Irish immigrants in the two, (then still separate), towns. The idea was to involve the local mainly unemployed young men in a football club and thus keep them out of trouble as there was much local sectarianism mainly due to employers cutting wages by hiring the Irish who would accept lower wages through sheer starvation.
So Hibernian FC was the result. Now far from there being a Hearts & Hibs problem history shows that it was Heart of Midlothian that were instrumental in Hibs gaining membership into the Scottish Football Association.
Hibs went on to then sponsor other Scottish teams to form Football clubs, as you not with the Dundee clubs who played their first match in the league in a donated Hibs strip.
It was also Hibs who influenced the formation of Celtic FC who were originally intended to be named Glasgow Hibernian but the name was changed to Glasgow Celtic as things were getting confusing.
As to the sectarianism, and it was never in the same, (pardon the pun), league as that between Rangers & Celtic, was actually a later development that aped the Glasgow sectarianism.
I went to secondary school in Leith quite close to Hib ground but I lived further west where many lads were hearts supporters. There wasn’t lots of away support in those days, travel was not easy, and our local group of friends went together week about to Easter Road and Tynecastle supporting both teams. When we were short of cash we went to support either Leith Athletic or Edinburgh City who shared a ground just by Ferranti’s Factory and these too were rival teams.
As I said the sectarianism in Edinburgh that occasionally sprang up was never encouraged or tolerated by the clubs and never really became too much of a problem. Yes it did exist but only sporadically and never anything like that in Glasgow.
Sectarianism in its Orange form has a high incidence in former mining areas, one reason Arlene Foster appeared in Cowdenbeath in the Kingdom of Fife.
Hamish100 says:
3 September, 2018 at 7:12 pm
link to walkers.co.uk
I have taken the liberty to respond to Walkers.
Regards,
Ian
Spot your region of England
Now that the SNP civil war is over, how long will it take Ken Burns to release a box-set on it ?
Hi Tinto Chiel at 5:52 pm.
You typed,
“@IZZIE: I agree it’s a distraction but sadly it is not exclusively a West of Scotland problem: examine the origins of Dundee FC and Dundee United (originally Dundee Hibs) and Heart of Midlothian and Hibernian in Edinburgh, for example.
I’ve typed this in the past…
There’s a long-established pub in Dundee called Frews (originally called “The Plough” until Willie Frew became ‘mine host’ – see link below).
It’s around a three minute walk from Dens and a five minute walk from Tannadice. On alternate Saturdays, it is a “United pub” or a “Dundee pub”. The annual Hogmanay party has a supporters of both clubs in the pub simultaneously. I’ve been to a few. No trouble; no raising of sectarian issues.
When, at primary school age, I went to Dens every week, my cousins were going the Tannadice. We were a’ proddies. The religious/football divide just doesn’t exist in Dundee.
Onnyhoo, to let you see the regard that Willie Frew held in Dundee, this link takes you to a video of the closing night party for the original Frews in Hawkhill.
link to youtube.com
BTW…
If you take part, remember to vote for Hardeep tonight!
@yesindyref2 says: 3 September, 2018 at 8:07 pm:
” … In any case he’s been good for the economics case:”
There is no way that claptrap is good for the economics’ case.
It is total Westminster propaganda and in no way are the assumptions made, as if they were truth, a help with anything.
The Westminster propaganda has been, since 1707, that Westminster is the actual continuing old Parliament of the Kingdom of England and it is a union of four countries with England the masters and everyone else their dominions.
Their problem is that they cannot make those assumptions legally stick. As we plainly saw be the recent Supreme Court rulings. Not even their specially created court can back their case. It has been pushed to the limit by Westminster – both
Civil Service and unionist parties – but they cannot make it legally stick.
I’ve quoted the claims made by the Westminster funded experts and hen by Mundell many times here on Wings, (and elsewhere), and they simple are not either legal or credible.
“The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom”
It is not so and they know it. The truth isn’t complicated or hard to understand – The United Kingdom is a two partner union of kingdoms that results in a United Kingdom. It is NOT a country nor is it a union of countries and when, (not if), either kingdom decides it is over the United Kingdom ends.
So even if the Kingdom of England decided the union was over there would not be a continued union of kingdoms i.e. no UK – no United Kingdom – no rUK – just a return to being two independent kingdoms and the shared assets split by negotiation and not by the Westminster assumptions that they own everything – BECAUSE THERE IS NO EGAL PARLIAMENT OF ENGLAND.
Believe it or not the actual legal situation will be that the Queen of England is legally sovereign and, due to English law, it is Her Majesty’s Prime Minister and Her Majesty’s Civil Service that will legally be in control for the elected MPs are elected as United Kingdom MPs and if that were to be the case then the Scots MPs would have a say as United Kingdom MPs.
Just like when an election is called – the Civil Service will run the Kingdom of England and their probable first job will be to run an election.
After which, according to English law, Her Majesty, The Queen of England, will choose who to summons to her presence and appoint them as Her Majesty’s Prime Minister and command him/her to form Her Majesty’s Government of her Kingdom of England.
That’s how Westminster has, (apparently), always worked.
Hamish 100
I know,
I was forced into Marks and Spencers in Stirling to buy something for my mother. While there I noticed tins of Walkers shortbread. There was a red bus and a telephone box which had views of London on each side.
We are a step away from British bagpipes and British tartan.
@IZZIE says:
3 September, 2018 at 5:03 pm
While I do respect Tinto Cheils point I spent 30 years teaching in Dundee I can’t remember one pupil expressing sectarian views young people are not asked when they meet socially what school they went to. This I am afraid is a west coast problem an a distraction.
=================
Is it likely school pupils would do so to their teacher? I knew a guy at college years ago who said he supported Dundee (not the other Tayside team) because they were the proddy team. Now he said this tongue and cheek but it was obvious he really thought of Dundee as the proddies and United as the “tims” even though he expressed no animosity. Until recent years you often heard the “Billy Boys” song being belted out by Dundee supporters.
The thing is sectarian was to some extent found in a lot of clubs as well as the old firm: Dundee/D. Utd; Hearts/Hibs and others though never as bad as with the Old Firm. Down the years though it has mostly died out except with the Old Firm. However at one time it was found all over Scotland, although the biggest concentration was in the West of Scotland, particularly Ayrshire and Lanarkshire.
As sectarianism has declined in the country it has retained strength in a few areas – e.g. Orange Order, Old Firm. But pockets of still exist all over the country: when the Orange Lodge has their big marches in Glasgow, it is kept big despite declining support by smaller lodges from all over the country sending down groups of marchers to swell the numbers.
I should add regarding the Old Firm and bigotry that Rangers are worst. That is partly because of associating themselves with Orange-ism and partly as a deliberate policy by the folk who bought the dead clubs assets and formed a new Rangers. Afraid that the old fans might not attach to the new club they used every means to link to it including, indeed especially the sectarian baggage. The results can be seen in the behaviour of their fans (and club) recently. This might seem by the way but Rangers (and Celtic) have fans throughout Scotland including the far north and Western Isles and if they’re not sectarian why don’t they do something about the fans who are?
re: Walkers Crisps and their 70th Union Flag celebrations. This must be a strictly English affair.
50 years ago, Scotland had Golden Wonder or Smiths (with the wee blue bag of salt) Have no idea when Walkers Crisps came to Scotland, but do remember the stooshie about blue bagged cheese & onion & green bag for vinegar.
@yesindyref2 says:
3 September, 2018 at 8:07 pm
it’s Anton Muscatelli who served on Calman but was and is probably an Indy supporter. In any case he’s been good for the economics case:
=========================
I believe he was anti-Indy but was very much pro-EU (many academics are, it will damage many unis) and may have become pro-Indy as a result of Brexit.
@cat
I woudn’t worry about it, he thinks anyone who uses the term “rUK” is a unionist and is SNPBaaad, which unfortunately for him, includes BfS, Nicola Sturgeon and just about every Indy supporter under the sun.
As you say, it gets in the way of a good discussion and is a reason I can’t be bothered with Wings – it’s a one-man and his obsession forum.
This new poll is vaguely entertaining because it winds up the Britnats. The very fact of its results being published breaches the credibility gap that they are desperately trying to maintain.
With regard to all/any sympathetic references to Labour, may they sink in a sea of anti-Semitism. They are no better in any respect than their Tory chums, just more dishonest.
@stu mac
I don’t think he was that active in Indy Ref 1, apart from that FT article which set the cat amongst the pigeons. I guess as principal of Glasgow Uni he stood back a bit. Yes, he doesn’t like Brexit.
@McDuff,
Lidle seem to be bucking the trend of all other Stores by not covering everything and anything in the the word British and the UJ,
someone somewhere has the power to influence/force all the big Stores to promote the ghastly brutish empire,
who is that someone and what else are they doing to rename Scotland into North Britain.
@Robert Peffers “There is no way that claptrap is good for the economics’ case.”
I know I should resist as I’m just passing through, but sterlingisation is the policy of the SNP Growth Commission which Sturgeon has welcomed (though not adopted), so by calling it “claptrap” are you just doing your SNPBAAAAAD routine again?
Why are folk surprised at Englands choices over Brexit these are people whose most popular program on the telly is Gogglebox for goodness sake, they think these people are average people and they laugh at this stuff, I agree it is an entertainment but I’m not sure it’s in the way they think it is, but they get to vote us down 10 to 1
I watched these people crying at the Royal wedding when the best part was the American Pastor with everybody cringing because he was going full on brothers and sisters hallelujah while I was under the table howling at the disaster at the full royal embarrassment of it all
These people voted for Nigel Farage, what’s to be surprised about them wanting to do it all over again, the country’s gone full tilt bonkers
They’re only missing a big tent we really must not be part of that circus repeat performance
And peoples vote? peoples vote! have you seen Gogglebox? what people?
I’ll lie down now
Mariana Mazzucato’s recent publication ‘The Entrepreneurial State’ is a brilliant read. The State creates and shapes markets ,it encourages change and innovation. The smart money is on green technology and a green economy – Finland ,France, Norway,Denmark leading the way with visionary and legacy politics. The UK lagging woefully behind- no vision,no future .
‘While the State should not expect a financial return for its spending on public goods like education and healthcare ,the State’s high- risk investments should be thought of differently, and allowed to reap a direct return precisely because the failure rate is so high ‘ p212
‘The Don’t forget that most of the big technological changes—the internet, the Global Positioning System, or GPS, everything in the iPhone—were actually spillovers from the moon mission or wartime scenarios. I could tell the same story about lots of different sectors, including the pharmaceutical industry or the digital economy, which have received benefits like deregulation, tax reduction, or free riding on the back of massive government investments. All this was enabled by their monopoly on the discourse and discussion of where value came from’
link to barrons.com
@yesindyref2 says:3 September, 2018 at 9:36 pm:
” … As you say, it gets in the way of a good discussion and is a reason I can’t be bothered with Wings – it’s a one-man and his obsession
Nah! If that were the case you would debate and negate my arguments – but you don’t and you can’t because I’m the one telling the truth and you are the one spreading the bullshit.
Straight questions- so give straight answers.
Q1 – Is the United Kingdom a united kingdom or a United country?
Please state proofs for your answer?
Q2 – Which parliament governs the country of England?
Q3 – Which parliament governs the Kingdom of England?
Q4 – Which country and/or kingdom country owns the Bank of England?
Q5 – Which country and/or kingdom owns the Pound Sterling?
Q6 – When any two partnership of equals ends what is the legal result?
Sectarianism in Scotland.
A little story to add. Some years ago, in the 70s, when, in Easter Ross, there was quite a bit of development taking place, the smelter, potential oil related work, etc., resulted in quite a lot of people arriving taking up employment. I was an incomer myself having come from farther north but had quite extensive knowledge of the area.
Anyway, one night in the a local pub I was asked by a pleasant guy who explained he was one of those who had moved from the central belt, as to where the nearest Catholic school was. I had no idea, Aberdeen, Stirling, Perth. I explained that schools here are non-denominational. I did explain that there was a private Catholic boys’ school at Fort Augustus but this seemed very popular with the higher heid yins of the Catholic church who often went there on holiday. I advised him to avoid that if I were he. He did. The rest is history.
Sectarianism, sport, Rangers, Celtic they just dont make for a happy environment. But Tomkins seeks Tory votes at any cost.
link to caltonjock.com
Hamish 100.
Walkers contact on promotions allows you to choose “others” in country and you can enter Scotland. Wonder how many will tell them where to stick there products.
@Robert Peffers
I don’t know about you, but the only thing I’m interested in spending time on is heloing to get Scotland to where there is only one government that counts, and that’s the one that sits in Holyrood and will make ALL the decisions for Scotland and the Peoples of Scotland.
And if I don’t like those decisions, it’s close enough I can walk there in two days and tell them what I think of the lot of them. Or use a bus pass.
@ Robert Peffers and BDDT: I referred to sectarian elements in the origins of clubs in Dundee and Edinburgh. As far as Hearts and Hibs are concerned, paragraph four of this source is of interest:
link to historicalkits.co.uk
You are quite right, Brian, that any sectarianism between the Dundee teams is weak today but see stu mac’s comments @ 9.19. I believe, however, that old religious division still plays a part in the enmity between the two Edinburgh teams.
Bigotry in the WoS is in its rawest and most overt form but sadly it is not confined to that part of Scotland, as stu mac pointed out. The number of fans and coaches travelling to Glasgow to Old Firm games from many other towns and cities around Scotland is testament to that. I refuse to believe they are all merely travelling to watch the football. There are plenty of local teams available to them for that.
Walker’s regions of Greater England ….
link to youtube.com
Almost certainly not malicious, just crass and unthinking.
Thanks to all who responded about Walkers crisps.
I emailed a complaint.
My parents generation would grumble about such issues but not want to upset anyone by keeping quiet. I think we should complain about all such issues. We do exist, we are a Nation.
Ot – ruth Davidson – should tell May to get on with the day job and stop talking all about brexit. lol
OT I hope this only refers to England i.e. people being fined £100 for getting dental treatment and not filling in forms correctly. I’ve never heard of it here:
Dentists say fines deterring poor patients – link to bbc.co.uk
@yesindyref2 says: 3 September, 2018 at 9:49 pm:
” … I know I should resist as I’m just passing through, but sterlingisation is the policy of the SNP Growth Commission which Sturgeon has welcomed (though not adopted), so by calling it “claptrap” are you just doing your SNPBAAAAAD routine again?”
More utter pish! I never mentioned, “Sterlinisation”, which, BTW: Makes my point for me.
You see I use an app that checks spelling against the Oxford Dictionary. It has just placed a long red wiggly line under the word and that means the Oxford Dictionary doesn’t recognize the term.
It is thus probably a use of one of the greatest tools of the propagandist. i.e. it is jargon. Which, like the macroeconomics you are so fond of spouting, only serves to fog a very simple, and none too technical, matter.
The point being that the concept you sought to complicate is no more complicated than the simple question, “What currency will an independent Scotland use”?
The SNP, and Nicola Sturgeon, have stated they favour continuing to use the currency that belongs as much to Scotland as it does to the three country Kingdom of England.
Personally I would answer that simple question with the following simple answer, “Any bloody currency the independent Kingdom of Scotland government chooses to use”.
In any case, as the Pound Sterling is an International Trading Currency then no one can prevent anyone from its use. It is thus a commodity that is bought and sold and traded against every other International Trading Currency.
Which all, in the end, means that the question of. “Which currency an independent Scotland chooses to use? is of little importance but what is of great importance is, “Whatever currency Scotland chooses will they choose to tie it to whatever currency the Kingdom of England chooses to use”?
Then there is your bland assumption that not only will Scotland, that is a part owner in the, (nationalised by the United Kingdom), Bank of England, be the kingdom from the former United Kingdom that must need follow the Kingdom of England in any agreed currency union.
The truth being more likely that which was stated in the McCrone Report which frightened the shit out of the United Kingdom Governments that they marked it top secret and hid it away for decades.
That report stated that the Scottish economy would be so strong in an independent Scotland that it would embarrass and dominate the Kingdom of England. That fact is even more true today than when McCrone wrote it.
It isn’t a complex matter of macroeconomics as you would have Wingers believe it is both a simple and easy to answer question and most certainly not a problem.
Which is why the Westminster flanneland jargon and their use of it as propaganda tool to cloud a very simple, (and long ago answered by Gavin McCrone), problem – For the Kingdom of England.
@Phronesis
“Mariana Mazzucato’s recent publication ‘The Entrepreneurial State’ is a brilliant read.”
I have her previous book – “reinventing capitalism”, with multiple progressive economic contributiors. Very good read.
@Robert
Seriously, you even quoted me spelling it “sterlingisation”, it’s you spelt it wrong! It has the letter “g” in it. Check it out in the dictionary, try clicking on the word in my posting and copying it into the search line, with the word “meaning” afterwards.
You got it wrong, yet again.
As for currency personally I’m with the MMT crew, and want our own fully convertible currency shared with nobody, from day 1. I don’t want iScotland to be held back by the rUK in its Brexit shambles.
Sterlingisation can run in parallel for a time to make things easier for everyone, in fact we already have a formal currency union, and our own banknotes, effectively our own currency backed 100% at the Bank of England with giants (£1 million notes) and titans (£100 million notes). They can be moved into the Scottish Central Bank immediately on Independence. Currently the figure is around £4 billion, to back the notes most of us have in our pockets, purses, wallets or stuffed under the mattress.
It would seem like a good idea to me to have our own currency from the day Scotland becomes Independent. I’d also think it a good idea to keep everything pretty much the same as it is now for a while until we got used to the idea.
So that means changing nothing at all regarding the Scottish notes we currently use and we could mint our own coins that are (for now) exactly the same shape etc as UK coins but with their own designs. I mean even the Isle of Man has it’s own coins.
One thing though we should definitely peg the new currency to the pound sterling for as long as it takes to allow all the electronic money to flow freely between borders such as pensions, investments etc.
You could even call it a transition period and after that we could free float the currency if we wanted. Maybe we also need to consider the future of an Independent Scotland in Europe that might want to join the Euro. I know such an idea is not popular now but hey we should all agree that moods change.
Remember when the UK joined the Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM) in 1990 only to crash out 2 years later. The ERM was set up in 1979 to ease the path to forming a single currency, the Euro. That took until 1998 so nearly 20 years to bring all those that did use the Euro into line.
For me it really is all just academic, as what we “might” do in the future is totally dependent on gaining our Independence first.
Even after we have voted to become Independent it will likely take some time before we actually are Independent, all the cords cut and then might be the best time to get serious about these issues.
@Thepnr
I haven’t explored how the IoM does its currency, DDM a (pro-Indy) poster on the Herald uses that as an example. Yes, we’d have to peg our own currency to start with, and yes, even the euro could be an option after a few years – as you say, that’s a question for after Indy, getting there is the priority. For us everything else is a distraction, but some of us might have to explore it for the sake of the undecideds to whom it matters.
I think these polls show there’s enough don’t knows to win over to make a YES a substantial majority. And there’s also current NOes who could come over, maybe even suddenly, it just needs a trigger. The famous Osborne flying visit hacked off a lot and there was a surge in support, what’s the equivalent?
Carney is due to go but is rumoured to be going to stay on, wonder if that’s Brexit to steer the UK through – or whether he fancies starting up a new Central Bank from scratch 🙂
Peffers is right, by the way, about the use of language to influence, to get people to do what they might not want to do, or to change people’s minds. Some politicians have a natural ability, some learn it, some don’t really have it. The trick is to recognise the tricks and avoid being influenced – unles we want to be. It is a part of propaganda to use words that aren’t the exactly right ones, and can sway people to another point of view.
Immunity is understanding of what’s being done to us, and one of the ways is to find out more about it. I’d like to see this taight from an early age, probably primary. Then we’d be able to see all the tricks for what they are from an early age. A truly excellent book is this:
link to amazon.co.uk
It’s hard going, and the problem is once you get into it, it makes you think and remember the things that were done to us against our will – just by words.
Problem is though that we also have to communicate with others, and sometimes we have to use “their” language to do so.
‘Brexit is another Tory Poll Tax’. A Tory.
‘As you say, it gets in the way of a good discussion, the reason l can’t be bothered with Wings – it’s a one – man and his obsession forum’. Que? Kettle black. That brought a smile. (9.36pm).
Some folk seen to be arguing with themselves. Like the Herald website. Groundhog Day. Why do people bother with it? Putting up the traffic.. Just leave the unionists to it. Irrational.
Dugdale costs getting paid by the Labour Party. Imagine if Alex Salmobd’s costs were being paid by the SNP. (They should be). He has been treated appallingly. Despicable. No one, with any sense, believes a word of it.
Aidan O’Neil QC. Mr NO. ‘There shoukd never be a Independence Ref. Until the Brexut verdict which could affect the lucrative EU legal business. Suckered,
The 17 year old would not have been included in the latest Poll. Putting it up a couple of points.
The SNP wanted to privatise the rail services. Westminster refused permission. What are Labour going on about. Usual waste of time and space. The Tories have had to bail out private companies. Fleecing the public.
@Thepnr
We should definitely have our own sovereign fiat currency.
But we should not join the euro, doing so puts us in thrall, to another countries central bank and loses the benefits of having our own currency.
link to taxresearch.org.uk
https://modernmoney.wordpress.com
link to bilbo.economicoutlook.net
Links
link to news.gov.scot
link to snp.org
link to businessforscotland.com
link to centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk
link to indyref2.scot
link to theorkneynews.scot
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
link to itisintruthnotforglory.wordpress.com
link to businessforscotland.com
link to stirlingsnp.com
link to itisintruthnotforglory.wordpress.com
link to joansjigsaw.wordpress.com
link to theferret.scot
Carlaw tells SNP: don’t vote with the Tories on Brexit
link to twitter.com
link to sluggerotoole.com
The 20th century showed how vulnerable humans are to tyrannical leaders. Today, at 65, the ECHR is as vital as ever
link to archive.is
link to zelo-street.blogspot.com
link to easterneye.biz
link to prospectmagazine.co.uk
link to politico.eu
Will not archive
link to buzzfeed.com
Hearings at the Hague begin today on horrendous UK depopulation of Chagos Islands, using @wikileaks cables as key exhibits (link to bit.ly ). For UK declassified files on constant lying and violations of int’l law on Chagos, see also
link to twitter.com
European Parliament has just had an update on #Brexit from @danutahuebner who chairs the @EPInstitutional committee and is on the Brexit Steering Group
link to twitter.com
Brexit: the no deal miasma
link to eureferendum.com
Will not archive
link to buzzfeed.com
Hearings at the Hague begin today on horrendous UK depopulation of Chagos Islands
link to twitter.com
European Parliament has just had an update on #Brexit from @danutahuebner who chairs the @EPInstitutional committee and is on the Brexit Steering Group
link to twitter.com
Brexit: the no deal miasma
link to eureferendum.com
Welcome back to Autumn ’18, looking forward to your governmental programme announcement for later today Nicola.
“Order me up another slice of your pie”:
link to youtube.com
ayeMail… empowering Scotland’s Yes groups:
link to indiegogo.com
£1,455 to get and twa days remaining to go…
60 flags’ll do it.
Yes We Can.
@Nana
Cheers Nana. How’s the throat today?
@yesindyref2
“Yes, we’d have to peg our own currency to start with, and yes, even the euro could be an option after a few years – as you say, that’s a question for after Indy, getting there is the priority. For us everything else is a distraction, but some of us might have to explore it for the sake of the undecideds to whom it matters.”
The question is, who do you want to have the ability to control the quantity of money in Scotland’s economy? For more than 40 years UK governments have abdicated that responsibility to commercial banks. Not only the quantity, but where that money goes (mostly to inflate house and asset prices).
So should London/Brussels be the main influence of the amount of money entering our economy or the Scottish government?
As for a peg, the pound was attacked in 1992 precisely because it had a loose peg to the German DM. The U.K. government via the BOE spent billions in foreign reserves defending the peg – until it saw sense and abandoned it.
link to snp.org
link to randompublicjournal.com
No mates Slab
link to twitter.com
link to politico.eu
Morning Macart
Sounding good today Sam, practising for the Mod 🙂
How about forming a Wings Gaelic choir? Now that really would have the unionists foaming at the mouth.
My goodness Nana, you’re on form today. Thanks for all the Links, they’re going down well with my morning coffee.
Hope you’re starting to feel better. 🙂
@Nana
From Satchmo to Mod soloist in a day. Whatever you’re taking? Keep some for me. 😀
@andy says:
3 September, 2018 at 10:25 pm
Anyway, one night in the a local pub I was asked by a pleasant guy who explained he was one of those who had moved from the central belt, as to where the nearest Catholic school was. I had no idea, Aberdeen, Stirling, Perth. I explained that schools here are non-denominational.
=========================
I only bothered a 3 second check of one town:
link to stmaryscathedralaberdeen.org
Thanks for the links Nana and I hope you’re feeling much better today X
The Chagossian situation should be interesting, especially when Westminster’s (Labour and Tory) decades of dirty dealings are exposed via an International platform. Then let’s hope that they win their case, the US base is sent packing and the people, at long last, return to their homeland.
Margaret Hodge, imo, is one sinister woman and with a daughter working for BBC news is highly “influential.” Hand in hand, Hodge, some in the Jewish community (backed by Israel) and the BBC, are keeping the anti-semitism story going. In other words Corbyn and followers are getting a wee taste of of the propaganda “treatment” that the SNP / Yes movement have had to / continue to deal with.
…………………….
BBC news: Nicola Sturgeon sets out her programme for Government. The opposition says it’s “pie in the sky and that they are running out of ideas.” A laugh, eh, especially when you take Brexit, the Chequers “plan”, the overall state of England and the imploding Westminster parties into account. Davidson’s contribution to Scotland is no more than telling people to vote NO to Independence. What a job. With a going rate of £62,000 plus a year, I’m actually thinking of applying to cover her maternity leave.
The stats are rising folks. All we need now is for a General Election to be called with Boris Johnston winning. Jacob Rees Mogg will do the trick too.
Some good articles and information on Talking up Scotland. Prof Robertson site.
Scotland already deposits £Billions in BoE reserves. Just gets back accrued debts. Not borrowed or spent in Scotland.The £300Billion Oil money squandered and wasted by Westminster. Scotland could have had an Oil fund, Been on par with Norway. Without the interference of Westminster. The UK would have been better off. Westminster Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Lies and deceit.
£100Billion a year borrowed and spent in the rest of the UK. Including excessive borrowing and spending classed as foreign investment. Chinese over costly projects. £10Billion+ pro rata, while Scotland pays off the debt. Scotland can borrow very little. Has to manage on the £60Billion it raises, (more pro rata). False accounting from Westminster Treasury.
@ Nana – glad you’re back and on form. Enjoed reading that Orkney News article. Well written and captures the mood perfectly:
link to theorkneynews.scot
@Baldeagle Thanks, I’m much better today.
@Macart Th old remedies are still the best, gargling with salt water and a wee toddy or two or three or……….
O/T. link to breakingnews.ie
With new legislation effective only since July 2017, the naming of political donors to the DUP during the EU Referendum never happened. The dark money was kept in the dark.
Whichever way you look at it, the DUP can only continue with it’s secrets intact and closely guarded, with the help of this Tory Government.
The Electoral Commission said disclosure was essential for public trust in the democratic process. Then the Tories cynically put a time limit on the legislation to protect the identity of dark money donors.
Let’s face it – there is no democracy under the Tories. Literally, they can’t live with it.
Petra & Capella,
I blame the snpcivilwar for my sore throat from laughed so much. For anyone who missed it here you go but a wee warning,reading can make your eyes water, your throat burn and leave you with aching sides.
link to twitter.com
Last links for now
link to thoughtcontrolscotland.com
link to ruthwishart.scot
@ Nana at 8:09am ….. “No mates, SLabs.”
If the party wasn’t so despicable I’d be feeling, in watching that, heart sorry for Leonard et al and then I remember that they had 13 years to, as an example, renationalise the railways but chose instead to decimate a country, killing, maiming and displacing millions, and of course totally destroying the Iraqi infrastructure … their trains / lines. And all in the name of robbing them of their oil.
You can take it that if Scotland had no oil they’d have removed the chain from the unicorn years ago with the proviso that they kept control of Argyll and Bute.
@Capella
A well reasoned article and not too far from what I reckon to be the next chapter.
Mail says …. “May gathers Cabinet amid signs her Chequers Brexit plan could collapse “
… ‘could’ …. who’s trying to kid who here? Who actually thinks the Chequers Plan survived more than a few days?
Well, May and the loyal establishment media have been keeping it on life support for weeks even though it’s clearly clinically dead!
Why though? What game is being played?
The choice is something like ‘Canada’ or something like ‘Norway’. This framework is dictated by red lines. Everything (bar cancelling) is destructive, and ‘Canada’ is still at the hard more destructive end of the spectrum. Most business would want something closer than that. However May’s red lines exclude ‘Norway’.
So what does she propose as a solution … cherry picked advantages of one without the related responsibilities. That was always a non started so why does May persist with the charade?
@ Nana
A work of art this:
No mates slab
link to twitter.com
@Nana @Capella
That’s a very good point there. We accuse the msm of ignoring the independist half of Scotland, but that’s not quite right. With the fake news they often now publish, they ignore and offend anyone who wants real reporting, investigation, and information. And that’s regardless of personal political stance.
Scottish waters have produced 42,000,000,000 barrels of oil since first drilled,
the average price of a barrel of brent crude (our type and also the finest) has been $54.25 between 1976 and 2018,
link to tinyurl.com
54.25 X 42,000,000,000 = in dollars
$2,278,500,000,000 almost $2.3 trillion
the biggest theft in history since the Spanish plundered the Americas.
Walkers crisps may be made in Leicester but it is a division of Frito-Lay inc. owned by Pepsi Cola. Geography has never been an American strongpoint.
I do not get leftist British Nationalist Unionism which the DR symbolises any more than the Irish Nat song singing, tricolour wrapped Celtic fan who disses Scottish independence.
Some Scottish heads are as logically flakey as a squashed bag of crisps
Q. Why does Ruth Davidson never shut up about an Independence Referendum.
A. Because Independence for Scotland is what Tory voters fear most and keeps them voting ‘No’, as is required for the continuation of the Tory government and the British Establishment.
Without relentless reminding by Ruthie, Tory voters in Scotland might just start to think for themselves occasionally and conclude that Independence makes eminent good sense.
In a nutshell, Ruthie’s primary purpose as a politician is to instill fear into as many people as possible. It’s what she would call ‘her day job’.
@Petra
I’ve zero sympathy for a party who deliberately set out to do Scotland down at every turn.
A party stuffed full of wicked people who turn a blind eye to the monsters within. Google operation ore for two videos and blogs, google Melanie Shaw, Cathy Fox, Lord Cullen Dunblane, labour25.com and the list goes on and on and prepare to be thoroughly sickened.
I highlighted quite a few websites before indyref.
Slab have a brass neck to have a go at Alex Salmond when their stable is a rank midden.
As for the cons and dems, there’s plenty of information on their nasties out there as well.
@paul mccormack
It sure is Paul. Sarah has a lot of videos on youtube, here’s the link
link to youtube.com
@yesindyref2 says: 4 September, 2018 at 12:19 am:
” … Seriously, you even quoted me spelling it “sterlingisation”, it’s you spelt it wrong!”</i?
Oh! For God's sake! I didn't spell it wrong – you did.
You just don't get the point I'm making – yet again.
Not only did I copy YOUR error but I did so deliberately. Let’s just, (pun intended), explain why in greater detail. It is a totally unnecessary use of a term but it is being used to confuse the issue.
You cannot change a Scottish system to Sterling that is already using Sterling. You are thus following the usual Westminster propaganda line by over complicating everything and anything you can find to confuse the Scottish electorate.
” … personally I’m with the MMT crew, and want our own fully convertible currency shared with nobody, from day 1. I don’t want iScotland to be held back by the rUK in its Brexit shambles.”
Every word of that statement is not only using terms that are designed to confuse but are obviously untrue. First of all there cannot be an rUnited Kingdom. There are only two Kingdoms in the union so they are either in union or out of union. The situation of one being in and the other out means there is no union. Secondly, as there is as yet, no actual exit of the United Kingdom or of either one of the two parts of it, it is pure speculation. Which usage of the term rUK has been the Westminster chosen tactic all along. a.k.a. Propaganda & brainwashing.
There you go again – first of all there cannot be a British exit from the EU because Britain isn’t in the EU. The United Kingdom is the EU Member state and the United Kingdom government at Westminster does not govern all of Britain.
We do not even know if there will be a
BRUKexit from the EU as there isn’t even a prima facie case, …(Oops! I will, of course, NOT make use of such legal jargon without explanation).
I hope you realise what I did there, Yesindyref2
I am deliberately using jargon to illustrate the propaganda use of such unnecessary jargon to complicate an otherwise simple matter.
” …Sterlingisation can run in parallel for a time to make things easier for everyone, in fact we already have a formal currency union, and our own banknotes, effectively our own currency backed 100% at the Bank of England with giants (£1 million notes) and titans (£100 million notes). They can be moved into the Scottish Central Bank immediately on Independence. Currently the figure is around £4 billion, to back the notes most of us have in our pockets, purses, wallets or stuffed under the mattress.”
And there is the proof that you do actually know the simple truth. So why all the silly, and unnecessary complications?
The Truth being that Scotland is at present in the EU as one partner of a two partner United Kingdom and if the EU so wishes to acknowledge that the United Kingdom is a two partner member of the EU and one of those members of the United Kingdom has voted to remain in the EU they have the power to stand by their Scottish EU citizens and IF there is a Westminster exit could simply allow the Kingdom of Scotland to remain while the Kingdom of England exits. This wise decision would see everyone get the result they voted for.
The EU membership numbers remain the same, The Kingdom of Scotland get what they voted for, the Kingdom of England gets what they voted for. What’s not to like?
Scotland is already using Scotland’s own currency that it has used since 1 May 1707 just as the Kingdom of England has used their own currency since 1 May1707 and the Scottish banknotes were distinctly Scottish since 1 May 1707. The two currencies have been tied since 1 May 1707 and if the two kingdoms split up the then only then can the two independent kingdoms individually decide how to continue.
So let’s just do a What if – What if The Kingdom of Scotland independently decided to tie the Scottish pound to the Euro but the independent Kingdom of England tied the Pound England to the USA Dollar?
There is, of course, an immediate problem. At present the Pound Sterling is an international trading currency a.k.a. a commodity – bought and sold on the currency market. As are the Euro and the USA Dollar and market forces, not the states concerned, will dictate their currency values.
The name, or pictures on the bank notes, are not going to make any difference in the currency values.
What will is the World Market perception of the economies of the states involved. It is generally accepted on that international currency market that Scotland is an exceptionally rich economy with great natural resources. They have even long had a table with Scotland’s place on that table way higher than the current United Kingdom.
So why are we now debating this subject here on Wings?
I think it is due to the Westminster propaganda and attempted brainwashing that there are big problems for Scotland but not for the “rUK”, (sic).
Goodness sake. @ 7.02am
The SNP wanted to take back the rail services into public ownership. Westminster refused permission.
The SNP said the Royal Mail in Scotland would be take back into public ownership. On Independence.
OT
Just to say I missed this, and wonder if others did. You will remember the controversy though over bombing Syria in April this year. The bombing was on the basis of chemical weapons in Dhouma, a vid of a child allegedly involved, the White Helmets verifying, supposedly.
This report came out in July, 2018, by OPCW. UK is a member, and this is the global weapons inspectorate.
NO CHEMICAL WEAPONS.
link to opcw.org
Ruth Davidson is just going through the motions. She has nothing to say regarding running Scotland because she knows that any policies she would like to see would get short shrift from the electorate.
Jackson’s plea that we don’t vote with the evil Tories is a gem though.
As for Neil Findlay … I think the Chewing the Fat science teacher is needed for him. “You can speak when you learn to dress yourself”
Whatever the currency is called, tying it to a plummeting pound, for a while, suits Scotland’s economy just fine.
Sure imports will go up but Scotland is better positioned to restructure to a more normal, sustainable economy. Lower relative wages and cost of raw materials produced here, along with our intrinsic natural resources, will make Scottish produce more competitive in the international market. Industries which rely more on imported raw materials and components will see less of a volumetric fillip but over all a more normal balance in manufacturing to services can be attained here very quickly.
But once that has been achieved we should split from the pound with hopefully a joined up, adult industrial relations understanding and a national economic strategy control infrastructure to maintain normal European levels of competitiveness, innovation and development.
It will be far tougher for England to do so, not just because of the lower intrinsic resources to population ratio but also because of an ingrained mind set of Ludditism and anti-manufacturing in the ruling elite there.
Their alternative GDP engine of choice, financial services, is also innately vulnerable especially post Brexit. Tariffs will hit the manufacturing base they have and even the lucrative but unethical arms sales are increasingly under threat from growing awareness and opposition on the internet.
“…why does May persist with the charade?”
Playing for time. Running down the clock. Keeping everything as muddied as she possibly can to thwart Nicola’s moment of “clarity on Brexit”. May (with the compliant BritNat Media) are bigging up (read ‘pretending’) that she has a viable ‘deal’ on the table (when she simply doesn’t). Staving off the moment when the whole of the UK really sees that they have been played by May (and the BritNat media) and that May really has no clothes, that Brexit is an unmitigated economic iceberg we’re about to crash into.
Stave it off, stave it off, stave it off. Play for time. Maybe something will come out of the blue and solve all her Brexit problems. Wishful thinking (unless she considers the Rev’s proposal, of course: link to wingsoverscotland.com )
The moment will come – it is enshrined in UK law: 29th March, 2019. Brexit WILL happen. Soft, hard, blind and utterly disastrous every single way – it WILL happen. Unless Article 50 is somehow magically revoked (doubtful in the extreme lest there be near civil war in England), Scotland WILL be taken out of the EU against the expressed sovereign will of its people.
The point of no return has come and gone. England’s leaving the UK and dragging the rest of the UK out with it. So I don;t see what Nicola is actually waiting for now? Perhaps she fears if she calls IndyRef2 then WM will thwart that by calling a GE? But what will that solve for WM? Nothing! A GE will NOT change the Brexit referendum vote. If the Tories win we will STILL be leaving the EU. If Corbyn wins we would STILL be leaving the EU. If Corbyn wins but needs SNP support then that may be a different ball-game. Would Corbyn rule out a pre-GE supply-deal with the SNP as Milliband stupidly did? Or is it only the tail wagging the dog when it’s the SNP propping up a UKGov but it’s perfectly okay if it’s the DUP propping them up?
In short, it is extremely unlikely that a UK GE would change the Brexit decision so we’ll still be leaving the EU. But it would be seriously stupid for May to call a GE just to thwart IndyRef2.
If May tried that then Nicola simply points out to the people of Scotland that after the GE we’ll STILL be getting dragged out of the EU – all that may change is that it might be Labour dragging us out rather than the Tories. As such, Nicola simply suspends IndyRef2 and, instead, makes May’s GE a defacto vote on Indy – the GE becomes Scotland’s vote on independence. Thatcher said that if the SNP sent a majority of MPs from Scotland on an independence manifesto, then that would be respected by WM. It would also be respected by the wider world as many other countries have become independent in this way. No need for 50% of the popular vote – just 50%+1 of the Scottish WM seats. (It’s UKOK democracy – playing by THEIR rules). Put that to May and let’s see just how keen she is to try and thwart Nicola’s IndyRef2 where 50%+1 of the popular vote WOULD be necessary (a harder proposition).
Take your pick Treeza.
So, at the end of all this, I’m not quite sure what it is Nicola is waiting to ‘see’? As I said – we’re beyond the point of no return. We need our EU citizens that have made Scotland their home to have a vote in their future too. After 29th March they won’t have that right.
Call it, Nicola.
It’s all over folks, not to worry says Kate Hoey to Adam Boulton we’re going to have a Canada plus plus plus deal and nobody in Northern Ireland’s bothered about a border that’s all a lie put about by the Republic because everybody wants to stay British and she knows because she’s from Northern Ireland says Kate Hoey Unionist politician
Phew what a relief, thanks Kate Hoey Unionist politician for clearing that whole thing up
@Valerie
The self styled ‘White Helmets’ were founded by a right wing English mercenary. They are not neutral and have been complicite in video fakery on the ground. Showing children ‘in distress’ is there angle. They are as worthy of trust as anything in military style headgear.
I suddenly have a new etymological theory for the origin of the Americanism, ‘hooey’.
Proud Cybernat says:
Aye, that’s what I think too.
They are trying to keep everyone’s eyes on Brexit, fake plans, and the squabbling. The real game it to try to thwart the existential threat to the UK. They know that Brexit and their Union are inextricable intertwined. They can’t have a hard Brexit and retain the UK.
Abulhaq says:
4 September, 2018 at 10:27 am
@Valerie
The self styled ‘White Helmets’ were founded by a right wing English mercenary. They are not neutral and have been complicite in video fakery on the ground. Showing children ‘in distress’ is there angle. They are as worthy of trust as anything in military style headgear…
Where did I see it yesterday??? Nana’s links maybe?
It was Syria warning the UN that Al-Nusra militants, and he mentioned the White Helmets too, were planning another chemical gas “outrage” which would be blamed on Assad and used as justification for another round of bombing, carnage and condemnation heaped upon Syria. He had intelligence the chemicals were already delivered… Deja vu or what?
Double bluff? There might be a possibility, but my intuition screams not. That would take a brass neck superior to Ruth Davidson’s. No, I fear Syria is going to be punched in the head yet again, and everybody and their dog can see who is really responsible, and it isn’t Syria.
Yes, it was Nana. Thanks as always Nana.
Nana says:
3 September, 2018 at 12:01 pm
Will not archive..
Video here
link to syriana-analysis.com
HandandShrimp says:
4 September, 2018 at 10:08 am
Ruth Davidson is just going through the motions….
Ruth Davidson is a fkn charlatan. She is a member of a democratically elected parliament explicitly advocating the curtailment of that very democracy, in lieu of direct subjugation by Westminster.
All these gobshites preaching “no more referenda” should be flung out of Holyrood for their contempt for democracy, bringing Scottish politics into disrepute, and demeaning Holyrood itself.
Ruth Davidson is a narcissist. I know it’s just a Wiki definition, but read the following and see if it reminds you of anybody…
“A 2012 book on power-hungry narcissists suggests that narcissists typically display most, and sometimes all, of the following traits:
An obvious self-focus in interpersonal exchanges.
Problems in sustaining satisfying relationships.
A lack of psychological awareness (see insight in psychology and psychiatry, egosyntonic).
Difficulty with empathy.
Problems distinguishing the self from others (see personal boundaries).
Hypersensitivity to any insults or imagined insults (see criticism psychopathology, narcissistic rage and narcissistic injury).
Vulnerability to shame rather than guilt.
Haughty body language.
Flattery towards people who admire and affirm them (narcissistic supply).
Detesting those who do not admire them (narcissistic abuse).
Using other people without considering the cost of doing so.
Pretending to be more important than they actually are.
Bragging (subtly but persistently) and exaggerating their achievements.
Claiming to be an “expert” at many things.
Inability to view the world from the perspective of other people.
Denial of remorse and gratitude.”
Davidson loves herself, hates her country, and would have us all convinced she is the Tory Messiah who won the 2016 Scottish Election Single handedly. When you’ve had enough of Ruth Davidson’s self adoration, all you need to do is pull the chain and flush.
Every time an example of nasty and barefaced Anti-Catholic sectarianism such as this below appears, it damages the cause of an inclusive Scottish Independence. History shows it is no coincidence that Sevco were beaten yesterday by their city rivals.
sandy says:
3 September, 2018 at 10:25 pm
Sectarianism in Scotland.
A little story to add. Some years ago, in the 70s, when, in Easter Ross, there was quite a bit of development taking place, the smelter, potential oil related work, etc., resulted in quite a lot of people arriving taking up employment. I was an incomer myself having come from farther north but had quite extensive knowledge of the area.
Anyway, one night in the a local pub I was asked by a pleasant guy who explained he was one of those who had moved from the central belt, as to where the nearest Catholic school was. I had no idea, Aberdeen, Stirling, Perth. I explained that schools here are non-denominational. I did explain that there was a private Catholic boys’ school at Fort Augustus but this seemed very popular with the higher heid yins of the Catholic church who often went there on holiday. I advised him to avoid that if I were he. He did. The rest is history.
I thought that WMD was the biggest lie we had even been told – and then along came Syria. Syria is without doubt the biggest lie we have even been told and the White Helmets are just a small part of it. The US and the UK have been funding and arming islamic militant murderers in Syria for a decade in an attempt to unseat Assad. Russia called their bluff.
@ Breeks – I’ve been researching Narcissism recently and it is indeed a rich source of insight into traits of some politicians and Unionist apologists. Grandiosity, lying, cheating, lack of empathy, selfishness and entitlement etc.
Alan Clark’s diaries are a rich source of examples of a political psychopath at large, safe in the company of his like minded colleagues.
For those who are interested, Youtube has many videos on these topics. Just search for MedCircle or Inner Integration (for the Gaslighting video I linked to on a previous thread).
Besides definitions of such traits there is advice on how to deal with it e.g. don’t engage.
One example 12 mins:
link to youtube.com
Breeks @ 11:04
Just watched the video. What are “our” journalists doing!
Stu, how about a “Wee EU book” which busts EU-bad myths to nudge those Pro-Indy-but-wavering-Brexiteers in the right direction?
Proud Cybernat at 10:22
I agree with much of what you say. May is just continuing her tactic of taking it one day at a time. Given her unpopularity and the chaos in her party and her government, each day that she clings onto office is, from her perspective, a great success. So tomorrow and the day after, she’ll just do the same again. The problem with kicking the can down the road is that eventually she will run out of road and then she will have to change direction – i.e. make a decision.
From a Scottish perspective, Nicola has to judge the timing of her announcement very carefully. If I were advising her (as if!) I would say wait. Perhaps not very long, but wait. When Treeza does reach the end of the road, things could come to a head very quickly and that could be the moment for Nicola to make her move. Political opinion will crystallise rapidly and that will provide opportunity. As long as the Tories are able to obfuscate, muddy the water and perpetuate their delusion vision of the UK living the life of Riley in a post Brexit world, some people will be taken in and will believe what they want to believe. Harsh reality will cure that, but harsh reality has not bitten – yet.
The recent opinion poll showing a small majority for independence if Brexit happens is very encouraging, but is it enough? It could be an outlier. Up until now, most polls have shown a small lead for “No” and even this one shows a lead for “No” if Brexit does not happen. So the polling evidence seems to be moving in our direction, but is not yet convincing. And the one thing that must not be allowed to happen is that we hold another independence referendum and lose it. That is the nightmare scenario that would mean that my generation (60 +) would never see Scottish independence.
I agree that calling a UK general election – as proposed by Labour – is just an irrelevance. Unless Labour were to campaign on a ticket of cancelling Brexit, which would be suicidal for them in their heartlands, the election would not resolve the issue. At a UK level, Brexit can only be closed down as an issue in one of three ways:
1. We just get on with it and take the consequences, deal or no deal
2. The UK parliament exerts its authority and overrules the EU referendum result (although that would raise different issues about the operation of democracy)
3. A second EU referendum is held and we do whatever that referendum decides.
However, I disagree with you when you say that in the event of a UK general election being called, a majority of independence supporting MPs from Scotland would be a basis for declaring independence. I don’t care if Thatcher said she would accept it – I don’t regard Thatcher as the arbiter of what is fair. The precedent of a referendum deciding this was set in 2014 and I think that in practical terms, only a referendum can change the decision made in 2014. Only a majority in a referendum will stand any chance of independence being accepted by those who opposed it. I do not want the newly independent Scotland to be a divided nation that proceeds to tear itself apart.
The challenge facing Nicola is to time the announcement of indyref2 just right. Just before she does announce it, there will be a clamour for her to do so. But she will not have done so and some people will criticise her for that. She needs to resist the pressure until the moment is right. I do not envy her having to carry such a weighty responsibility, but I am absolutely convinced that she is the right person for the job and I trust her judgement.
Surely we have reached a new low (even for BBC).
The comments below are unreal-not 1 single positive comment at the two top pages?
link to bbc.co.uk
Breeks says:
She suits the party she’s in. The one nation Tories have long gone, only the oldest Tory voters remember them. Today’s need to be con artists to be electable – they need to pretend to be something they aren’t and hide their true objects. They latch on to a few populist policies and garner enough gullible votes to gain power. Populist right wing policies can appear beguilingly simple.
Davidson hides who she is and what she stands for to such excess that they appear to have only one policy – maintain the UK.
All that takes utter ruthlessness and a callous attitude to the rest of society. A narcissist is perfect for the job.
We all, quite justifiably IMO, have a poor view of her, her Scottish branch, and her London masters.
I will say one thing positive about Tories. They have become focused, organised, and effective. They are more scheming and manipulative than we credit them, perhaps because the hide behind a veil which includes looking like edjits.
For example … their success in 2017 in Scotland came down to them being much better at getting their potential voters out than the SNP were. That, more so than anything.
Ok, hiding policies with the collusion of the media helps, but getting supporters out is their big success. I suppose what I’m saying is the SNP needs to be as effective in that area.
Breeks 5 of those narcissistic traits you listed seem to apply to all britnats of the die hard kind 1 hypersensitivity to insults or imagined insults 2 detesting those who don’t admire them 3 bragging and exaggerating their achievements 4 pretending to be more than they are and 5 inability to view the world in the perspective of others should probably do video on it titled 5 narcissistic traits all die hard britnats posses.
Presumably Aidan O’Neil QC. Mr NO, considers the Northern Irish, who voted in the recent poll 52% for a united Ireland 38% against, should be ignored if they demand a Referendum on that.
@ Nana says at 9:49 am … Petra – ”I’ve zero sympathy for a party who deliberately set out to do Scotland down at every turn. A party stuffed full of wicked people who turn a blind eye to the monsters within…. Slab have a brass neck to have a go at Alex Salmond when their stable is a rank midden.”
I’ve zero sympathy for them too Nana, as you’ll know, and have an archive chockful of what they’ve been up to: And what we do know will just be the tip of the iceberg. Dame Margaret Hodge alone has a lot to answer for – covered up by her own party and their ilk the Tories and Libdems – and then made Minister of Children ”her dream job”, by Tony Blair. Now she’s a main player in bringing her own disgusting party down. Commonly known as the chickens coming home to roost, for the whole horrendous kit and caboodle of them.
link to standard.co.uk
……………………………
@ Valerie says at 10:07 am … ”Just to say I missed this, and wonder if others did. You will remember the controversy though over bombing Syria in April this year. The bombing was on the basis of chemical weapons in Dhouma, a vid of a child allegedly involved, the White Helmets verifying, supposedly. This report came out in July, 2018, by OPCW. UK is a member, and this is the global weapons inspectorate.
NO CHEMICAL WEAPONS.
link to opcw.org
Good find Valerie. Will it now deter the US, UK and France from taking further ”action”?
Described by Dr Bashar al-Jaafari as being, ”The black flag, white helmet and red line (warmongers).”
@TD
Ms May does indeed need time and she does need to keep the waters muddy on final outcomes for as long as she can. All for the obvious reasons nationally and internationally.
There is no good Brexit, only varying degrees of economic, political and societal calamity.
How and ever, the FM also needs time. Time to build popular consensus. The FM has our votes on the constitutional question and can count on a pretty fair majority of them for more day to day politics. But those aren’t the votes that either the FM or we need.
What the Scottish government requires is the vote of those who voted NO last time out and even then, those who voted no in very specific areas. The indy, but not yet vote. The financially invested vote. The soft no, who voted because they didn’t like the risk or had some lingering idea of loyalty. The ‘this is your last chance’ devo vote. Any number of reasons really, but they voted no on the day and those are votes that need to become YES now.
Whilst fighting through the shitpile of day to day politics and the UKs media, that was always going to take time. Time and events. Indy minded folk want to know, why the delay in calling anything? My guess is convincing enough people to vote for hope just takes as long as it takes.
Right now it’s a question of who needs more time and who has enough time? When will the event overtake the time each requires and action will NEED to be taken? As I said right from the start, the window of opportunity will be tight and it required/s certain things to happen. Or should that be happen when we need it to? 😉
Ms May’s greatest problem however, is that she is fully aware there are many roads for Scotland to move away from the madness of Westminster and UK politics. Referendum, GE, SE, courts. Doesn’t matter. All have the potential to legally enact and finalise dissolving the treaty of political union.
For anyone interested in studying narcissism – ‘Malignant Self Love: Narcissism Revisited”, by Sam Vaknin is a great place to start. Vaknin a self-confessed ”malignant narcissist.”
Just been into a supermarket in Yorkshire and Walkers have a sign saying pickled onion crisps are the most loved in Scotland.
That’s crap so why are they saying that.
@ haudonthenoo says at 12:19 pm …. ”Surely we have reached a new low (even for BBC). The comments below are unreal- not 1 single positive comment at the two top pages?” link to bbc.co.uk
That’s your ”independent, impartial and honest” broadcaster, haudonthenoo. No doubt ”moderating” the site in an unbiased way. More than anything affording people a platform to say all of the things that they would like to say, without being sued. Using them to do their dirty work in other words.
This is one of the latest comments:
”I was born in England and have lived in Scotland most of my life
Its like being a jew in Nazi Germany
The SNP propagates division and hatred
Most Scots are not hatefilled and violent but some are
This woman encourages it
She encourages the rewriting of history and funds propaganda movies which dress fiction as fact
Celtic v Rangers is changed to Scots v English, books are burned.”
@yesindyref2 says: 4 September, 2018 at 1:47 am:
” … Problem is though that we also have to communicate with others, and sometimes we have to use “their” language to do so.
Nah! The only time we need to use, “their Language”, is when it is neither Scots or English and the speaker doesn’t understand either Scots or English, (I include Scots Gaelic and Lowland Scots under Scots language).
What that means is this thing you are calling, “Their Language”, is the erroneous use of standard English and, in most cases, that misuse is a deliberate misuse of non-Standard English for the purpose of misleading and confusing the listener.
It is simple the deliberate misuse of the English Language in order to enforce their propaganda down our throats. For us to thus use it is to condone it and help them to misinform us or to subliminally get us to think what they want us to think.
The whole point being that it is a very simple matter to turn on its head and use, “Their Language”, as you call it to make them look the idiots they are.
Think on this – If Theresa May is making a speech, (which you may have noted she rarely does in an actual open to the public meeting), and every time she says, “Brexit”, someone calls out, “Britain isn’t an EU Member state so Britain cannot exit the EU”. Imagine the confusion that would cause for the Westminster Establishment’s cause.
Now extend that to include every time she said, “The country” someone said, “which one”? When she then said, “Britain”, or, “The UK”, someone said, “Britain is not a country”, or, “The UK is a Kingdom, not a country”.
Now amplify that effect to include objection to any of the Westminster propaganda misuse by anyone of the English language and think of the effect it would have.
For a start it would cause absolute chaos for Broadcasters and publishers. Just think how I destroyed your whole dialogue by pointing out that you cannot, “Sterlingise”, a currency that is already using Sterling.
So just what is the correct term? There simply isn’t a correct term because it is the concept being considered that is wrong.
What you, and many, many, others were attempting to debate, inform or confuse is the concept of how two different states, each already, “Sterlingised”, should individually deal with each others independent use of the Pound Sterling.
Now I can only speculate on this as I am not party to the Westminster intentions and thus do not know if this is a deliberate ploy or just the Westminster mentality.
That mentality seems to be that Westminster is the actual parliament of England and Scotland is actually a dominion country as is the rest of the British countries, (all eight of them), under the Westminster, a.k.a. the country of England’s rule.
It progresses that as the Country of England thus owns the other seven countries in the British Isles and the Bank of England, Sterling belongs to the Country of England as does the Bank of England and all who sail in her.
Oh! And of course, Westminster a.k.a The country of ngland de facto parliament is sovereign and everyone must do as Westminster says.
Except not a bit of that entire concept is legally true.
There is indeed two different United Kingdoms.
A personal one of Her Majesty Elizabeth Regina that includes the three Crown Protectorates and was inherited by the sitting monarch in 1603 and known as, “The Union of the Crowns”. It was, and is, only a personal United Kingdom for the sitting monarch.
That is why there was a Treaty of Union in 1706/7 that united ONLY the then extant Kingdoms of Scotland and England and does not include the three Crown Dependencies. So Britain cannot exit from the EU because Britain isn’t in the EU.
Sterling and the Bank of England do not belong to England alone and the United Kingdom is neither England nor Britain it is a two partner United Kingdom. It really is as simple as that.
haudonthenoo
I agree the comments are just relentlessly negative –
probably organised by the same BBC ‘churnalists’ organiser… alert goes out…
Maybe the BBC, in fact all the media, should take a moral stance and quit allowing comments on any news article. It would be fairer than the current criteria for selection which seems slanted towards allowing comments on Scottish stories that will invite negative comments – or am I just being a conspiracy theorist???
Anybody hear Derek McKay on R4 Today prog. this morning,. Cool, calm and collected and gave concise answers. Totally dismissed the £13bn deficit accusation and explained it away efficiently and charmingly, despite the increasing desperation of the BBC interviewer trying to trip him up. He wouldn’t let her interrupt him, finished his sentences and then issued a blithe ‘ cheerio’ at the end as though he’d just stopped by for a chat over a cup of tea. Sheer brilliant it was! ( sorry didn’t clock what time it was on but in last 45 minutes I think)
I don’t think I’ve ever eaten a Pickled onion crisp and I’ve eaten a LOT of crisps.
@ Albuhaq
Yup, I know all about the White Helmets, been following that story for a long time now. Two female journalists, Eva Bartlett and Vanessa Beeley in particular, have fought tooth and nail, against horrendous abuse, to reveal the truth.
Many of us on Twitter have politely tried to correct senior SNP names, over their support of White Helmets.
@ Proud Cybernat
Great post. My thinking exactly. We need to correct people that say – it’s ok, we will be in transition, after March, 2019.
NO WE WON’T. Without a Withdrawal Agreement, there is no transition. You have to know WHAT you are transitioning into.
So, yes, I think now the Tory “running down the clock” approach is twofold. A charade of bravery to EU over withholding the £39Billion, and thwarting Scotland over clarity.
We know the polls for indy change against us, if we Remain in EU, so confusion suits Treeza.
@TD
You make a lot of good points. It is Theresa May who is stuck between a rock and a hard place. She knows her Chequers plan is dead and buried, she knows that even if she caves in on NI and gives the EU the backstop it want’s the she will still be unable to get the deal through parliament.
She is unable to make any kind of decision because all roads lead to failure, what she is trying to do is minimise the degree of failure that will do least damage to the Tory party in the long run.
Corbyn too has his problems over Brexit mostly as he doesn’t know what to de either. Backbenchers in his party are lining up against him and there is talk of a breakaway using not his antipathy towards remaining in the EU but using the excuse of his “anti-Semitism”.
There are Machiavellian moves in play all over the place and there is no possible way of even second guessing where this will all lead.
The only one that knows what they will do next is Nicola Sturgeon, she has her plan and has made her decision and that is that the people of Scotland will be given the chance to have their say on the mess that is the UK.
There will be another referendum and the timing will become, I think obvious. There is a slow but steady movement towards greater support for Yes all brought about by the chaos that is Westminster and Brexit. There will be more to come and it can’t be put off for very much longer.
The days ahead will be stormy indeed, chaos likely and that’s why Nichola Sutgeon will remain calm. We absolutely never ever will have a better chance of gaining our Independence than now. I wouldn’t gamble with that chance.
We will have our say, it might just come even sooner than we think.
TD/Proud Cybernat
There is a lot going on behind the UK Constitution/Brexit/N.Ireland border scenes, undoubtedly, but you can bet Willie Rennie will stand up tomorrow and ask a question about testing for primary one school pupils.
Treeza is muddying the waters and stalling in the hope that she can put off decision time for Nicola ( as Rock keeps reminding us…) she may well then have to crash out of the EU without apparently leaving Nicola enough time to organise things, or so she might think, ensuring her preciousss union continues.
She has just lost a lot of ground with this week’s rejection and hardening of attitude towards the ‘Chequers’ proposals.
She may well be ousted very soon – party Conference time is fast approaching- get rid of one leader and crown another, but who? Johnson, Rees-mogg, Gove.. will they be so busy fighting like futrets in a sack that they will miss their chance? Treeza is stuck – much as she might personally want a second referendum, if she allows one then there is no way she can ‘deny’ a Section 30 if Nicola were to ‘ask’ for one.
Heard on Woman’s Hour ( of all places) this morning, an interview with Gina Miller who , it has been proposed, may become the next leader of the Lib Dem Party and lead the call for a second referendum. – interesting idea! She got a grilling from the BBC interviewer who harped on about upholding democracy and how it would betray the people to have a second vote, but Gina Miller argued that one away.
Have they smeared Alex because there is a GE in the offing and they want to make sure he can’t stand. Could he stand as an Independent ( NOT independence) candidate.
Will (t)Ruthless have her baby and head to a peerage and try to steer things from London?
The Anti-semitism ‘scandal’ has all but scuppered any chance of Labour making a come back and winning at an upcoming GE and we’re to believe that disgruntled UKIP voters are rejoining the tory party to try and swing any vote for a second referendum towards Leave.
I think I’ll leave it to the Wizard of Bath to correctly predict the outcome of the next few months. Over to you Rev.
Thx Petra – it’s on the Kindle. 🙂
I’ve the strongest feeling the msm in general in Scotland hates Wings so much because Wings is the ‘breaking news’ in Scotland on all things political and they have to play catch up time and time again…would go as far as to say that even UK wide, like the Times picking up on Mone’s cryptofarce?
Wings reports the new where we are. And Nana is the btl editor in chief.
@ScottieDog
“The question is, who do you want to have the ability to control the quantity of money in Scotland’s economy?”
Glad you asked 🙂
Okay, day 1 of Indy, dual currency, sterlingised but also our own currency which is already in circulation backed 100% by giants and titans. But that circulation is just £4 billion and exists in notes only, little electronic or overseas funds based on or including it – if any, not holdings of any significance outside our borders.
When we go down to England, or on holiday to Spain, most of us already convert our local currency into “foreign” currency as so few outside Scotland accept it, and if they do it’s 19 shillings on the pound.
So the exposure for speculators is non-existents, short of then chapping on every door in Scotland asking to buy the notes under our mattresses.
Scotland is likely to carry through most UK legislation and then tackle it bit by bit. The 1858 Banking Act and its 2010 equivalent are repealed, but the Scottish Regulatory Board (SRB) and the Scottish Central Bank (SCB) keep the peg at 1 to 1, AND the reserves of foreign currency at 1 to 1 also, on the sterling pound.
The Scots pound is properly launched, but very little if any goes beyond our borders, and hence it is protected from speculation simply by its non-availability.
Year 2 of Indy, Scotland issues £1 billion of extra currency, and keeps the 1 to 1 peg AND puts in an extra £1 billion of foreign reserves. Some starts to cross the border, maybe central banks buy some.
Year 3 of Indy, keeps the cap but no extra rerwserves, OR drops the peg.
Ilustrative time-scale only 🙂
@Valerie
Challenging the probity of the WHs is the equivalent of taking on the entire western, Nato propaganda machine. Nothing about Syria, or anything in the ME, is ever black/white, good/bad.
Western powers self-interest is, however, always paramount and there are plenty ‘on the ground’ to make sure it remains so. Divide and rule, yet again.
@Robert Peffers
Afternoon Robert, sun splitting the skies here in the West, hope you have a lovely day.
Macart at 12:32
“Referendum, GE, SE, courts. Doesn’t matter. All have the potential to legally enact and finalise dissolving the treaty of political union.”
Hmm – I’m not sure about that. I would agree that all may have a part to play. But I’m not sure that any one of them – even a referendum – could resolve the matter on its own.
A referendum would give political authority, but probably not legal authority. Of course, if we accept that the Scottish people are sovereign, then it can be argued that a referendum is all that is needed – it is after all an expression of the sovereign will of the Scottish people. But that would then beg the question of the terms under which Scotland went independent. I cannot see how the terms could be on the referendum ballot paper.
So it would need an act of parliament. But which parliament? The Scottish parliament is the representative parliament of the sovereign Scottish people. But the terms would need to be agreed with England Wales and Northern Ireland (for which, at the risk of incurring the wrath of Mr Peffers, I will use the abbreviation rUK.) So the Westminster parliament would need to enact legislation as well. A UK general election or a Scottish general election are only relevant in that they determine the constitution of the two parliaments. Of themselves they cannot “legally enact” anything.
The courts could well have an important part to play. We only need to look at the Brexit fiasco for examples of how the courts play a part in resolving disagreements about constitutional procedures. But I cannot conceive of circumstances where the courts would “legally enact” anything on their own. The courts might refer a matter back to parliament (either one) as we saw with the Gina Miller case in the UK Supreme Court.
I am as sure as I can be of anything in these chaotic times that Scottish independence will be achieved through a referendum followed by legislation in both parliaments with the courts intervening to resolve any disputes which arise in the process.
43% imagine sticking with the rogue colonial power is the best option. The lab monkeys have been well programmed.
Petra / Meg et al,
Yes I get it but even the BBC would/should have at least a smattering of Pro-Scotland comments. To have none at all is just so preposterously biased and so obviously fixed as to be laughable.
The BeebBots are on fire …
@ScottiDog
I said “Year 3 of Indy, keeps the cap but no extra rerwserves, OR drops the peg”
I didn’t explain that very well. The SRB removes the requirement to have all new currency backed 100% by reserves. So Scotland could issue £5 billion but only top up the SCB by £2 billion in reserves, entral banks buying some of the £5 billion would add more to the SCB anyway. Confidence in the Scottish Pound is starting to build up internationally – and the notes are used to paper Australian bar walls, meanign Scotland’s already making a profit on our currency.
A few idle thoughts as I am wont from time to time.
This comes about after the civil (actually very civil) ‘war’ within the SNP and wider Indy movement.
First, we are starting to see some disquiet within the Conservative and Unionist ranks and the launch (relaunch?) Of Conservatives for Yes.
That is, Conservatives who having viewed the galactic explosion of fuckwittery down south are beginning to see the personal, business and educational opportunities envisaged by independence. In essence they are Conservatives, not Unionists.
Now, a basic tenet of conservatism is self reliance, standing on your own feet, making the most of your own resources and helping others achieve their full potential. Old school conservative philosophy that used to be valued in Scottish society.
So, engage with conservatives, establish whether they are in fact conservative and open to the idea of independence as a way forward or whether they are just British Nationalists blind to all the faults of our current Union.
Exploit the rift, encourage conservatives to come on board. We need a Scottish based right wing balance to some of the more extreme left wing, free unicorns and popsicles nonsense and should welcome their input into the debate. They should be encouraged not castigated.
There probably won’t be that many but they do exist. Their voices will count and will also be heard where it matters, at the very heart of their party.
A free and independent Scotland will make Her own choices and there is a place and voice for everyone that puts Scotland first
@TD
Pretty much any vote that carries the popular will or specific mandate can set the ball in motion.
The preferred route is S30 agreement and referendum followed by negotiation etc. No question and for all the obvious reasons.
How and ever, even a refusal to grant an S30 would not prevent a political party standing at any GE or SE on a ticket of independence and acting on the specific mandate of a popular vote. Should Westminster claim ‘advisory only’? Well, they did set their own precedent on acting on advisory only referendums, now didn’t they? They’d find it nigh on impossible to deny any popular vote.
Ms May has a problem. 🙂
The FM introduces the SG programme.
link to scottishparliament.tv
Here’s a thought, if Northern Ireland were to vote to be part of a new Independent United Ireland it would have a combined population of 6.6 million in comparison to Scotland’s 5.4 million.
The Republic of Ireland’s population has increased from 2,978,248 in 1971 to 4,792,500 in 2017 a 61% increase in less than 50 years.
Scotland 5,229,000 in 1971 to 5,424,800 in 2017 a 3.7% increase and in fact as recently as 2001 Scotland’s population was less than 1971 at 5,062,011.
Just to put that into perspective England’s has grown 28% Northern Ireland’s 22% and Wales 14%.
I’m sure there’s a lesson to be learned somewhere in there.
Yeah, like others, comment lost, hit the back arrow and looked at it carefully, can’t see anything wrong, no r*pe, no s*or *lb*, must be some pretty weird filter 🙁 🙁 🙁
call me dave said at 2:29 pm:
“The FM introduces the SG programme.
link to scottishparliament.tv ”
Thanks for that,
‘Broadcasting Scotland’ is also currently streaming from the Chamber and will probably Archive later. 🙂
link to tinyurl.com
@Thepnr,
Just to illustrate better how “good” the Union has been for Scotland.
1700 – Population of Scotland estimated at 1.2Million, England was around 5 Million
1900 – Scottish population around 4 Million, vs 30 Million in England and 10 Million in Holland
2018 – Population of Scotland is 5.4M, vs 55M in England and 35 Million in Holland.
300% & 30% increase in Scotland vs 500% & 200% in England (1700 to 1900 & 1900 to 2018 respectively). Take away the 400k+ non-native Scots and our population is in decline even now !
Truth be told it is disgusting what has happened (or rather not happened) to Scotland since that fateful day when so many of our gentry were Bought and Sold for English Gold. Those bastards in London have basically scammed our country from the moment the 1707 Treaty of Union was signed, and continue to do so anabated.
@Thepnr,
Just to illustrate better how “good” the Union has been for Scotland.
1700 – Population of Scotland estimated at 1.2Million, England was around 5 Million
1900 – Scottish population around 4 Million, vs 30 Million in England and 10 Million in Holland
2018 – Population of Scotland is 5.4M, vs 55M in England and 35 Million in Holland.
300% & 30% increase in Scotland vs 500% & 200% in England (1700 to 1900 & 1900 to 2018 respectively). Take away the 400k+ non-native Scots and our population is in decline even now !
Truth be told it is disgusting what has happened (or rather not happened) to Scotland since that fateful day when so many of our gentry were Bought and Sold for English Gold. Those bastards in London have basically scammed our country from the moment the 1707 Treaty of Union was signed, and continue to do so unabated.
frogesque @ 13:44,
They are rarely sighted, but they do exist. I happened to be sitting beside one in the visitor’s gallery at Holyrood for the historic vote in the spring of last year, and (as one does) we chatted before proceedings began. He was obviously supportive enough to be there just like the rest of us.
They have a harder hurdle to jump though, because unlike Labour, they can’t remain members of the “Conservative and Unionist Party” and outwardly support indy, according to ex-insider Ashley Graczyk. So they will either have to split from the party as she did or come to it from the outside, eg. business people who see their future imploding under Brexit.
But there could well be more taking the plunge if they come to believe that indy has a sporting chance of actually happening. Getting in on the ground floor.
The greater the spread of political opinion for indy the better, because it convinces others to consider indy as being something tolerable politically. (We all have our own good reasons, but “one wo/man’s meat being another’s wo/man’s poison” is sometimes hard for politically-engaged enthusiasts to recognise and accept.)
I am reminded of Ian B’s not entirely tongue-in-cheek previous suggestion that we should start a “Conservatives for Indy” group ourselves. Just to get the ball rolling. Heh, heh.
Testing GBP SCP SCG KPMG Treaty of Union Forsyth brand ceases to exist
Being reported by the Telegraph and quoting eurosceptic MPs (so some scepticism needed) ….
“The EU has warned that Theresa May’s Chequers plan is “dead” and is urging her to adopt a Canada-style deal favoured by Boris Johnson, according to Eurosceptic Tory MPs.”
Allegedly based on what Barnier said, so perhaps some substance.
Canada plus security plus agreement on standards plus other wee bits. If true, I am not surprised.
So, suppose TMay adopts a Canada+ plan already given the nod by the EU, where does that lead?
Firstly, I think WM would pass it if the only alternative on offer is no deal.
What does it mean for Indy? Well, IMO, it isn’t close enough to the EU for Scotland. We need IndyRef2 to ‘test’ that ‘deal’.
Macart @ 14:08,
Yes, the “advisory” referendum notion is a total bust now. A rod for the back, one of the Tories very own making. “The people have spoken” has somehow become imperative and immutable.
The UKGov can’t backtrack on that now, so S30 has become purely optional. As others have pointed out before, it gives London some measure of influence over the process, so it’s their call to get involved or not.
In countries used to referendums, it is normal for one to be called on an issue after the call is underwritten by a sufficient number of verified signatures. At roughly 50:50, we have been well into that situation for some considerable time, and after 2016 there is eminent justification, as we all know.
Yesindyref2
I thought you were just passing through yesterday?
After others identified you as the English Establishment spy in the camp,,I would have thought that it would have been better for all concerned if you had kept to your word.
No one reads a word you post, so why don’t you just die off with a bit of dignity,,,instead of waiting to be pushed.
FGS! I put up with Ruthie as expected she ranted and even Leonard who nearly made me nod off but Rennie’s gone too far punting the Union as the way to go. 🙁
First day back and RD shouting at the FM ‘how dare she stand there and say …..’ anyone can see the unionists know the game is up and RD is losing the plot. I don’t know how she gets away with it -her behaviour in parliament is a disgrace – her whole demeanor reaks ‘frightened to death’. Her own health will not be improved by her hysterics. The yoons are obviously very frightened – can only think what is their own secret polling telling them.
@call me dave
Mr Rennie is an irrelevance. The problem being… I’m guessing he knows it.
@Jack Murphy
Thanks for that link.
O/T
Scotland women footie live on Alba. Just started. 0-0
After a YES vote Scotland is going to need some hard negotiators. One of the things they do is appoint one of the big 5 or 4, KPMG have some splendid offices in Glasgow. One of their duties is to value the brand “UK”, and the brand “Pound Sterling” – GBP.
We have a name, Scotland, we don’t want to be called “Scotland half of the fUK”, just Scotland will do fine. But as Forsyth said, “when Scotland leaves the UK the UK ceases to exist. I don’t know what it will call itself.”.
Well the rUK can call itself what it wants – the UK. We’re called plain simple Scotland. But at a price, we own half that brand, not 8.4% according to population, it’s 50% because of the Treaty of Union. KPMG value UK the brand at £100 billion, the rUK Gov (or UK Gov acting on its behalf) in its usual last minute panic go for £5 billion, it’s settled at £50 billion. That’s £25 billion for Scotland.
Similarly for Pound Sterling and GBP, we will have our own currency SCP or SCG. But our share of the £50 billion valuation is half – £25 billion. Take it off our share of the debts, oh no, not a population share, a historical share which comes to around £50 billion NOT £150 billion. So it’s all square, Scotland has NO debt.
But we still want our share of the assets, including the £120 billion of BoE reserves. Our population share £12 billion.
(trimmed down, if this don’t work I give up).
George Osborne (remember him) the former Chancellor and now Editor of the London Standard tweets:
“Today’s editorial @EveningStandard on why the Chequers plan is dead”
I think for once he may have gotten something right, shame about the mess he made as Chancellor alongside his buddy Cameron as PM.
link to twitter.com
Robert J. Sutherland says:
4 September, 2018 at 3:42 pm
As others have pointed out before, it gives London some measure of influence over the process, so it’s their call to get involved or not.
Don’t know about others, but UK government involvement is the bit of most concern for me. Leaves the door wide open for (more) establishment dirty tricks during IndyRef 2. IMO, Nicola should inform Theresa May that she either grants an S30 on Scottish terms (ie. no strings attached), and if not, “Thank You and Goodbye”, we are going to go ahead and have our referendum anyway.
The worst possible outcome would be to obtain an S30 order, with WM effectively in control. Way too risky IMO.
Another IndyRef concern is the number of councils in BritNat control at the time – I just don’t trust them.
Ceasar….. Don’t know what happened.
The Scottish TV channel beginning with A. 🙂
@galamcennalath 3:39pm
Canadian Leah McLaren said [2016]:
“So Team Brexit, here is my advice: before you start making vast, sweeping comparisons between Canada and the UK regarding trade deals with the EU, consider the following. The EU likes Canada. We share certain cherished values, like socialised medicine, hot chocolate and ice hockey. Our relationship is a happy, long and stable one. And it still took over 20 agonising years to negotiate a deal. How long do you think it’s going to take if the EU is an angry ex-spouse who is still fuming at you for walking out?”
Scotland mustn’t waste time waiting to find out. Neither can the north of Ireland for that matter.
Macart at 2:08
I think there are many ways to start the ball rolling, but delivery of an independent Scotland is a different matter. The EU referendum started the Brexit ball rolling, but two years later it has not been delivered. To actually achieve independence for Scotland will, as I said, almost certainly involve legislation in both parliaments, a referendum, further legislation and guidance and dispute resolution from the courts.
Re winifred mccartney
I wonder how apoplectic with rage the Yoons will allow themselves to become before someone e.g. Ruth Davidson, makes a demand for London to make a direct intervention in Scotland. It could actually come from a more junior BritNat, e.g. W Rennie, to try and provide it with some sort of cross party “gloss”.
These people work together and the multi party appearance is a fiction. They have one objective and that is to prevent Scottish Independence.
That intervention could be an emergency act to “temporarily” close down Holyrood and put in place direct London rule, similar to that currently ongoing in N Ireland. All sorts of justifications and excuses could be made for this to happen.
The closer a Brexit cliff edge looms, the more nervous the BritNat establishment will become and it is at that point that we could see prominent BritNats becoming extremely vocal about closing down the Independence routes.
The current Holyrood Britnat strategy appears to be shouting “No” at every opportunity in the hope that the SNP are going to obey. Fat chance, and it is this lack of BritNat options that may just force their hand to apply a blunt instrument approach.
link to twitter.com
Terry @ 15:47,
Who the f*** are you? Who made you the site moderator all of a sudden? Sprout like a mushroom and start slandering one of the long-time regulars, in flagrant violation of the site rules. Same odious behaviour as that now-exorcised dolt the other day. (Another attempt at the same disruption, maybe?)
Take a hike.
Macart says:
4 September, 2018 at 2:08 pm
“The preferred route is S30 agreement and referendum followed by negotiation etc. No question and for all the obvious reasons”
Sorry Macart, but preferred route exactly for whom? And can you elaborate a bit more what in your opinion are the obvious reasons for wanting a S30 agreement this time round? Because I am afraid I cannot see them. I can clearly see why the Uk government may want a S30 agreement if they are trying to find a way to interfere with the referendum and tamper with the results to ensure a no win so they tie us with the result no matter how it has been achieved, but I am not quite sure I see really why the Scottish Government is going to want to tie themselves to a vote that may be illicit if the interference of the UK government via Civil Service, National brodadcaster, UK electoral commission, UK wide political parties, England MPs, etc, etc is far too great.
Frankly, I am not sure we can talk about self-determination of Scotland if the UK government does not back off completely. And when I say completely, I mean completely. This is a matter for Scotland and Scotland only. Any interference of the UK government in this vote will be undermining our right to self-determination. The demand of such S30 from the UK government can be constructed exactly as that: an attempt to restrict the right of the people of Scotland to exercise their self-determination. Therefore, unless we can ensure that the influence of the UK government in the referendum is zero, I do not see why our Scottish government has to tie its hands behind the back and accept this S30.
As for “the UK government” shouting “advisory only”, well, I have something to say about that. The current “UK government” is formed exclusively by England MPs that do not hold the mandate of a single vote from Scotland. There is not a single MP in the UK government cabinet (ministers with portfolio, I do not consider the role of Secretary of State for Scotland or Wales as a true ministerial role) that holds a seat from Scotland.
Very recently, the UK Parliament upheld Scotland’s Claim of Right and the fact that Scotland’s sovereignty does not lie on England MPs, but on the People of Scotland. Scotland’s independence referendum will be and expression of that sovereignty and an expression of the Claim of Right. Therefore any input, any threat by any England MPs/Broadcaster/UK Civil Servant etc attempting to restrict the freedom or validity of that self-determination process should be rejected point blank as illegitimate and as a direct attack on Scotland’s sovereignty an attack on Scotland’s Claim of right and a blatant attempt by a foreign country to curtail our right to self-determination. It is not for MPs elected by England or Welsh constituents to decide if Scotland’s referendum is advisory or not. That is a matter to be decided exclusively by the people of Scotland and their legitimately democratically elected representatives, which England and Welsh MPs are not.
Robert J Sutherland, think Indy2ref must be onto something with the troll ad hominen attacks on him recently. So little terry the troll , your no very good are you, still serving your apprenticeship? little apprentice boy!
@ Terry
What Robert J Sutherland said.
Away and fcuk yourself. You are not in charge, nor the spokesperson for this forum.
Terry – threatening texts. You have no argunents then?
There are none of the opposition parties in Scotland who seem to understand that the Union really is well and truly finished. They can keep on flogging the dying horse with the belief that the Empire has to survive at any cost.
As said on many WoS “blogs” in an Independent Scotland any one of the parties could run the country, if they have the correct policies for an Indy Scotland competing on the world stage, they will be elected, Simples.
Unfortunately at this present time, there is not ONE opposition politician I can see as being an alternative to the SNP.
Its sad really because in an Indy Scotland we need strong opposition in parliament, but none stand out as being anything other than petty children wishing for the ermine cloak.
Pathetic and sad . Tick Tock.
Latest ladies soccer scores…
Albania 1 ~ 2 Scotland.
Go girls!
Luigi @ 16:18,
Maria F @ 17:13:
We should distinguish between having some influence on the “rules of engagement” on the one hand and being involved in the administration of the ballot on the other.
I meant in the first sense, not the second. The actual administration of the referendum was, and should remain, solely in the hands of the Scottish Government via its local proxies. I’m not sure that the more extreme critics of the process last time truly understand that.
The importance of the former is (eg.) the composition of the electorate, for example the 16-17 year olds and the EU27 residents. The UKGov would love to gerrymander by excluding them if it could, as in the EURef, but the precedent has already been set by us.
Hence the importance, which is too often overlooked I fear, of having a robust registration process already in place, so that only those who are directly influenced by the decision are able to decide the outcome (and only get one vote each). Carpetbaggers and summer swallows not required.
Another significant aspect is the rules setting out information coverage. Purdah and all that. Fact-based arguments, not lies and half-truths as before. This needs to be much more firmly established for next time, and ideally overseen by a team of neutral observers with the power to directly intervene in a timely manner if necessary.
The prime (and fair) advantage of S30 is that both sides agree in advance to respect the result, which can save a lot of legal tussling in the aftermath.
FGS! Raylan Givens…. Cactus! You might have Jinxed it!
Fingers crossed and all that. 🙂
link to craigmurray.org.uk
Well done to the Scotland Women’s Football team in qualifying for the World Cup.
To World Cup France 2019.
Scotland’s innit!
X.
Don’t read this unless you’ve got a strong stomach.
link to club1872.co.uk
Scotland in the world cup !!!!!
Very well done Scotland’s Ladies
Phheew! Cactus that was tense my boy.
The Curse of Scottish Footie did not strike! Well done the women!
Hehe call me dave, ahm like Falkor, ahm a luck dragon, ahm frae the year of the.
Think ah’ll try ma luck on the Euromillions ra night.
6 / 10 / 17 / 18 / 34 (lucky ***’s 4 & 5.)
Congratulations Team Scotland!
Scotland through to World Cup Finals in France 2019.
Fantastic result.
Well done Scotland ladies.
Go Scotland!
Women’s World Cup ~ France 2019.
(7th June to the 7th July 2019)
BRUKexits EU 29/03/19.How’s yer travels…?
@Thepnr says: 4 September, 2018 at 2:50 pm:
” … Here’s a thought, if Northern Ireland were to vote to be part of a new Independent United Ireland it would have a combined population of 6.6 million in comparison to Scotland’s 5.4 million.”
I’ve not stopped laughing since I read that, Thepnr.
The thought immediately popped into my mind, ‘would that be before or after the Loyal Orange Order emigrated out of Ireland’.
@RJS, @Lenny, @Valerie, @Hamish100
Cheers. It’s a wolf pack thing “they” see someone they think is isolated and circle the prey. It might not be “they” it could be one single operator, multiple IDs. If they get rid of one, it’s on to the next, then the next.
I don’t dare try again with that posting – straightforward posting as far as I can see – or the Rev will be on with hammers. Now that IS something to be frightened of 🙂
THIS POST IS MOSTLY ABOUT FITBA
I note from the Rev’s twitter feed, he is suggesting, if Craig Gordon comes out as a girl, we could win the Women’s World Cup.
Naw, naw, Shelley Kerr has to recruit Allan McGregor – I understand he put forward PMT as his reason for kicking Ajer on Sunday.
On politics – that face Nicola pulled while The Mooth was having her rant today was priceless.
Robert Peffers at 6.32
The significance of that statistic is that as Ireland went independent in 1922 the population of the whole island was considerably less than Scotland’s.
Ireland is currently judged the sixth best off nation in the world moving soon into fifth place.
Get these facts to the tight arsed little unionists
TD says:
4 September, 2018 at 1:35 pm
“A referendum would give political authority, but probably not legal authority”
Sorry, I do not understand what do you mean by a referendum will not give legal authority. If the people of Scotland vote for independence, it means they are removing the legitimacy from the UK parliament to govern and to legislate for Scotland. If the people of Scotland vote for independence, at all effects, the people of Scotland is demanding the Treaty of Union to be dissolved and the consequence of this is that the UK parliament must be dissolved too, as it only exists as a consequence of the Treaty of Union. So under what legitimacy would the then dissolved or about to be dissolved UK parliament that has been rejected by the people of Scotland as a form of government could legislate anything to do with Scotland?
I think some of these matters were addressed during indyref in the HoL:
link to publications.parliament.uk
They recognise this in the above link:
“A “yes” vote in the referendum in September would put the UK Government in an unusual position. Scotland would still be in the Union until the date of secession, but its people would have stated their desire to be ruled from Holyrood exclusively rather than, as now, Westminster and Holyrood together”
“If there were to be a yes vote in the referendum […] it would mean that people in Scotland had given a mandate that they no longer wished the United Kingdom Government to act in their interests ”
What those people in the above link seem to be refusing to accept is that upon Scotland dissolving the Treaty of Union, the UK as the United Kingdom of Great Britain ceases to exist. There is no “rest of the UK”. What will be left is the Kingdom of England. They also seem to be under the impression that the “UK parliament” would continue to exist without the Scottish MPs. And that is what truly reveals what the “UK Parliament ” actually is. If it was really the Parliament of the UK of Great Britain, as it should be, that parliament should be dissolved with the treaty. The fact that they are not even mentioning that means to me that all those lords see the “UK Parliament” as the Parliament of the Kingdom of England. It is almost as if the union never existed.
In the above link (discussion at the HoL in 2014), some seemed to think that a Section 30 would be the mechanism by which the UK gov could give the Scottish Gov powers to legislate for the referendum on independence, as dissolving the treaty of union was considered “reserved”.
I have a serious issue with that. Implying that dissolving the treaty is a “reserved matter” is seriously restricting the right of the people of Scotland to exercise their self determination and it is in fact attempting to restrict their claim of Right. The sovereign people of Scotland cannot require the permission of England MPs to exercise their right simply because those Mps do not hold Scotland’s sovereignty and Scotland is not England’s property. The Kingdoms of Scotland and England were united by an international treaty. It is the right of any of the two kingdoms independently to dissolve the treaty if they see fit. The idea that the other kingdom has to give its consent for the treaty to be dissolved is absurd, because if that was the case it would not be a “treaty” it would be like assuming that one partner owns the other. For instance, did the UK needed something like a “section 30” order to be able to legislate for the EU referendum?
Also from the above link:
“There is an issue of whether further legislation would be required. The process of colonies and dominions becoming independent was obviously very different from the separation of part of the United Kingdom into a new state”
Well, thank goodness they at least acknowledged this…
“It might be that an Act of the UK Parliament could simply state the cessation of that Parliament’s ability to legislate for Scotland,[46] make any consequential provision and provide any transfer of powers that was required.[47] This would fit with the Scottish Government’s position that “the key legislative steps towards independence should be taken by the Scottish Parliament”
Frankly, this is what it should be: a yes vote will indicate that the people of Scotland does not longer wish to be governed by Westminster and that removes its legitimacy to do so.
“But that would then beg the question of the terms under which Scotland went independent”
What do you mean exactly by “the terms under which Scotland went independent”? Are you referring to some kind of agreement/treaty after independence? Because if there are “terms” then we are not talking about independence, we are talking about some kind of “devo max”.
From the link:
The ratification of an agreement (following negotiations) between Scotland and the rest of the UK followed by legislation in each Parliament would be a symbolic act, echoing the Treaty of Union in 1706 and the 1706-07 Acts of Union”
It will be a symbolic act and it cannot be any other way because after a YES vote the UK parliament loses legitimacy over Scotland.
If this was truly a union and the UK parliament was truly the parliament of the United Kingdom of Great britain, the biggest problem here for any negotiation post independence that I can see is the fact that the Kingdom of England (which is really what these people call the rest of the UK) does not have a parliament. Once the UK parliament is dissolved by a Yes vote by the people of Scotland, who is the Scottish government going to negotiate with? The parliament of Wales?
However, if you read the information in the link above, you realise that most of those people are not seeing the Uk Parliament for what it is : the Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain. They are seeing it as the Parliament of the “united” Kingdom of England, that is why they don’t even mention the dissolution of the UK Parliament, even when they mention that the 59 Scottish MPs will leave at some point and they keep talking about “the rest of the UK”. There is no “rest of the UK of Great Britain”. The UK of Great Britain was formed because of a treaty. You dissolve the treaty, you dissolve the UK of Great Britain. Yet, not a single one of those involved in the discussions actually acknowledged that.
“So it would need an act of parliament. But which parliament?”
From the above link:
“Any legislation should deal with the Treaty and Acts of Union that created Great Britain in 1707. The Secretary of State for Scotland told us: “The union was constituted by a treaty followed by two Acts. If it is now to be dissolved, it would presumably need that at the very least.”
I think this is is a matter of logic: The Scottish Parliament has been elected 100% by the people of Scotland and represents the people of Scotland and them only. The people of Scotland can only elect 10% of the UK parliament, and it is therefore only that 10% of the parliament of the UK that holds Scotland’s sovereignty. If the sovereignty of Scotland lies on the Scottish people, it is absurd to even think that England Mps that do not hold the mandate of a single vote from Scotland can hold Scotland’s sovereignty.
“The Scottish parliament is the representative parliament of the sovereign Scottish people. But the terms would need to be agreed with England Wales and Northern Ireland”
What terms? Are you having the Mccrone report in mind and thinking about how much of Scotland’s continental shelf is England going to demand to keep or how much of Scotland’s territorial waters is England going to demand to include within their own?
Those are not terms, TD. Those are demands from a foreign country once Scotland has secured a Yes vote. And guess what? once we have voted to become independent we don’t have to listen to those demands anymore.
The actual figues of 1926 are
All of Ireland(including the north) 4.2 million
Scotland 5.2 million
Figures now reversed All Ireland a million more than Scotland.
Another union dividend.
First – Congratulations to Scottish team in qualifying
Reporting Scotland – man (I won’t class him as a reporter) touring Scotland to push the message “Brexit won’t be too bad” – more media manipulation by selecting people to give OPINIONS instead of reporting facts.
@TD says: 4 September, 2018 at 4:28 pm:
” … independence for Scotland will, as I said, almost certainly involve legislation in both parliaments, a referendum, further legislation and guidance and dispute resolution from the courts.”
Oh! Stop talking pish!
It is totally unacceptable to even consider such an idiotic notion. The Westminster government is legally a two partner United Kingdom Government.
Scottish Independence is a matter between the Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Scotland.
Westminster is legally the United Kingdom Parliament it is NOT legally the Parliament of the Kingdom of England – it operates illegally, (via EVEL), as the de facto parliament of the country of England.
Got it now? It would in a court of law be officially representing both Kingdoms of the United Kingdom – totally illegal in any court of law.
When you think about it, the English have definitely got an inferiority complex.
They lie about the size of their economy, they lie about the size of their armed forces, they lie about how they will get Empire2 up and running after Brexit and they even can’t come to terms with just how small their land mass is.
The BBC Weather map was the most recent example of their size complex, where they had the map so tilted that you had to stand on your tip toes to see Scotland.
Tiny, insignificant England.
(2015) Ireland GDP per capita EUR 51,100, Scotland EUR 28,900, with geographical oil EUR 31,843.
We’re Better Together in the UK, Ireland should rejoin. NI EUR 22,600. The UK Union works well for them too. *
link to discourse.scot
* For the benefit of the sarcasm deprived, that’s what it is.
Yes, well done Scotland ladies team.
TD @ 16.28
That is how I expect a big part of a post brexit indyref would be debated. We have seen the clusterfuck that brexit has become, and split of the uk would be even harder as much more institutions and more contentious debates to be had. The do-ability of seperation has been proven to be harder that the assertions made in a campaign.
Whose the clown calling Indyref2 a troll? They just appear from nowhere and call out posters who’ve been here a long time. Oh well, we’ll always get them I suppose, especially now that the polls seem to be putting the fear of death into the Britnats.
Well done Scotland’s ladies wish the men could do as well.
O/T has Indycar Gordon Ross been taken off of youtube or something. He usually has a post most days, but nothing for four days now. Or mibbies the soul is not too well or something, anybody know?
Project Fear 2 will say because brexit was a boorach Scotland’s ending of the union with England will be worse.
Forgetting 1: The obvious incompetence, arrogance and ignorance of British nationalists during the brexit process proves more than ever before that Scotland has to dump Westminster completely. Why tie ourselves to another 300 years of such britnat boorach-crisy?!
2: The britnat lies of Indyref1 have been exposed, and the britnat promises made [the Vow] have been blatantly reneged upon.
3. The britnat media is now even more anti-Scottish, and more people than ever before realize it.
Indyref1 means indyref2 will succeed.
Dan,
IndyRef1 was a trial run for IndyRef2.
“Oh this is ladies night”
“Get ready, tonight”
Hey BBC Radio Scotlandy… Hambilton, Scotland.
Like where dat like?
@Indy kits for Yes groups.
Do we want to seal this tonight or do it tomorrow…?
link to indiegogo.com
Less than one grand remaining to go like.
Yipeeeee!
Well I don’t often disagree with the intentions of Holyrood..
But I have to ask..
Is this Finns law looking like.
The Government is allowing the police to train on a daily basis a powerful animal to attack humans.
Then make it illegal for the human to defend themselves from the dog…?
This is crazy..
How about making it illegal to be using animals in this way in the feckin first place.
I don’t care who it is or what they’ve done… When an animal attacks anyone would do what they could to stop it.
The animals shouldn’t be getting put in that position to “improve” OUR policing …they don’t give a shit who stole what …ever… unless its their dinner..
We have no right to be putting a dog between humans like that,but even less right to ask anyone to allow the attack to “just” happen!!
If a dog is coming at ye it’s a human right to defend yourself that its been trained to do so makes it even worse.
This is not a good law,we should be banning attack animals.
We don’t allow dogs to be trained to attack other dogs and then deploy them to do so,in fact dog fighting quite rightly disgusts us
We need laws that take account of bad governments, not a Government that allow “state sanctioned”animals to attack humans…and then make it illegal to hurt the dog.
Are we to get a comparable law of Police dog excessive force against a suspect?
A suspect,who is, as we have all been sayin, would be at the point of the attack innocent until proven guilty..!!
This is even worse than the idiotic dangerous dog act…
Maria F @ 18:44,
I think you are quite right, though as I see it, it’s actually quite elementary. As soon as the people of Scotland have voted by a majority to become independent, from that very moment onwards the government in London (whatever its name) ceases to be able to speak in our name. (In negotiations with the EU, for example.) Whatever the legal niceties, the government in London lose our consent to be governed by them. In effect they would be sacked.
Our representatives’ unconstrained freedom to decide and act independently becomes an unavoidable political fact of life. How otherwise could they negotiate with London freely?
Third parties, such as the EU for example, will then also be perfectly free to come off the fence and back us up.
The actual process of sorting out mutually-agreed arrangements will take some time and no small effort, no doubt, but our own elected representatives will be the only ones with the power to speak on our behalf, and from the very get-go, and the world will recognise this as a fundamental reality.
frogesque at 1.44
Excellent post
Sorry Liz g, I think that police dogs do a great job. They are trained to restrain people who do not simply obey the wishes of their handlers.
There is no hidden agenda here.
Do YOU want to seal this tonight or do it tomorrow…?
link to indiegogo.com
– Anonymous
– Charles Shaw
– Colin McGeechan
– Roderick Adamson
– Ian Bruce
– Rab Dunn
– Malcolm McMillan
– Alison Matthew
– Daniel Sullivan
– Connie Davidson
Ninety-fucking-four per cent achieved of £12,500 to date Scotland.
Aye will only ever promote what ah’ve already put into. 🙂
Wherever’s ye be from…
Be one of the many.
“As soon as the people of Scotland have voted by a majority to become independent, from that very moment onwards the government in London (whatever its name) ceases to be able to speak in our name…. In effect they would be sacked.” @Robert J. Sutherland says at 9:06 pm
Exactly right.
Independence for Scotland before 23:00hrs on 29th March 2019 = NO BREXIT for Scotland.
or catchier version for the Social Media:
#Independence=NO_BREXIT
Then tandem negotiations:
1. Dissolution of the UK (including argument over % UK Debt & % UK assets retained, probably £0 paid, for zero assets as per Eire precedent)
2. Accession to the EU as 28th Member (Quickest Article 49 negotiation in European Union history)
Robert J Sutherland @ 9.06
I think we are going to have to push to make it completely clear that after the Yes vote only Holyrood speaks for us..
A quick read of Maria Fs link to the Lords in 2014 makes it completely clear that they thought the procedure was Westministers to decide..
They even want to “share” the UK Supreme Court with us!!!
And speak of how they should manage the leaving of Scottish MPs….
I don’t know of anyone in the Yes movement who is up for any of that!
Dear Liz G……police dogs are police dogs, they are trained to restrain people who don’t obey their handlers commands. They are not there to be stabbed by people who don’t obey the requests of our policemen/women.
My daughter and son in law are both serving police officers and I’d much rather some idiot who does not understand the command ‘stop’ had to face a police dog that turn violently on my children.
I’ll try this another quick way as the first still didn’t get therough.
After a YES vote our negotiating team appoint Brand valuers, as the name UK (which we don’t want) is worth money, and so is the Pound, and they’re 50% ours. They’re worth £50 billion each so our share is £50 billion. Then the debt isn’t per capita at £150 billion, it’s £50 billion on a historic basis. So that’s quits.
But we still own share of assets, and for instance £10 billion of the £120 billion BoE reserves.
Maria F at 6:44 p.m.
“Sorry, I do not understand what do you mean by a referendum will not give legal authority.”
I think it is quite clear what I meant. The will of the people will have been expressed and as the Scottish people are sovereign there is an obligation on our political leaders to deliver what the people have voted for. But how will independence be delivered? Take just one simple point – on what date would it happen? First time round we were just asked if we wanted Scotland to be an independent nation. The Scottish government had indicated its target date of March 2016 if I remember correctly, but this would have required legislation. It would not have just happened because the government declared that as its target.
Of course in Indyref2 we could ask something like “Should Scotland become an independent nation on 1 June 20XX”, but why tie the government’s hands in this way? And are we going to pile in to the question all the other points that will need to be agreed? We can see from Brexit that separating a union is a complex business and there will be vast amounts of detail to be agreed both about the “divorce” and the ongoing relationship. I suggest to you that the referendum will record the will of the people but will not of itself deliver independence – it will simply give political authority. That political authority will be used to push through the legislation required to make it happen.
“So under what legitimacy would the then dissolved or about to be dissolved UK parliament that has been rejected by the people of Scotland as a form of government could legislate anything to do with Scotland?”
It is quite in order for the parliament of one country to legislate regarding its relationship with another country. Of course Westminster would need to legislate – if only to end the authority it has exercised over Scottish affairs.
“The people of Scotland can only elect 10% of the UK parliament, and it is therefore only that 10% of the parliament of the UK that holds Scotland’s sovereignty. If the sovereignty of Scotland lies on the Scottish people, it is absurd to even think that England Mps that do not hold the mandate of a single vote from Scotland can hold Scotland’s sovereignty.”
I agree that English MPs have no sovereignty over Scotland. Neither do Scottish MPs. Sovereignty lies with the Scottish people. Scottish MPs have delegated authority from the electorates of Scottish constituencies. It is not clear to me what your point is.
“What terms?”
Really? Are you saying that you don’t think there will be an agreement with rUK (or to avoid upsetting the pedants, that part of the current UK that does not include Scotland) If that is what you are suggesting, then I disagree. There will be agreements typical of those found between any two neighbouring states in the modern world and yes those agreements, or terms, will include ownership of the continental shelf together with mineral rights. But in the same way that we will not tolerate “demands”, neither will our neighbours. We will apply international law and we will negotiate.
Liz g @ 21:43,
Just imagine how hard their dreaming sky will fall in on them when we (most politely) tell them that they are totally surplus to our requirements!
The most obvious example of this kind of force majeure is when a country is invaded. Then all the fine laws it may have at that point in principle become totally redundant. The invader imposes its own law as it sees fit.
An independence referendum works like that – a win for indy is in effect a “negative invasion” (if I can put it like that). But the net effect is exactly the same.
And one happy consequence in that event is that the HoL and their self-satisfied exceptionalism can jolly well lump it, Supreme Court and all.
It is very important to establish that the day after we vote for independence is not formally independence day.
There will be a transition period as the separation from the UK is negotiated. As part of that process our currency choice will be made.
We are facing shouting we should have a new currency the day we become independent without it being made clear what that process will be.
As a consequence of this lack of clarity Mrs McGinty can be easily persuaded to believe the pound in her purse may well be valueless the morning after the vote.
Get this sorted out!
FWIW I believe the chances of the UK leaving the EU at 23:00 on 29th March are less than 50%.
I fail to see how any modified Chequers plan will be accepted by the EU and that even if it did after much redrawing of May’s red lines then I also fail to see how Westminster Tory rebels would allow it to pass.
Both Tories and Labour are having their own Civil War over this and I just cannot see a ceasefire being achieved in time for any kind of deal that would allow the UK to exit the EU in an orderly manner.
So that just leaves No Deal, the thing is about that is that nobody want’s it hahaha. I know they all act and look daft but at the end of the day nobody want’s to cut their own throat so…
This is the funny bit because the only thing they can do is plead for an extension to the Article 50 “deadline” and if they do then I’m sure it will be granted. You know why I think that? It suits all sides and also raises the stakes a bit as this can only be done once.
My guess a 6-9 months extension to article 50 to let everybody get their act together and a bit more realistic when it comes to finally sorting something out.
Funniest bit though is that even that scenario doesn’t mean any deal is actually more likely to be done, it does mean though that both sides can say “we gave it all we could”.
We’re talking of politicians here, they know all their voters will be affected by a no deal Brexit so will do their level best to avoid, not Brexit but just looking bad.
Just my tuppance worth, all views welcome, alternative or not 🙂
Robert Peffers at 6:52 p.m.
“Oh! Stop talking pish!
Thank you for your intelligent comment. It is gratifying to be the butt of your wrath.
In the real world, my prediction is that when Scottish independence happens, it will involve legislation in both parliaments (the Scottish parliament has already approved another referendum), the referendum itself, a period of continuing to be part of the UK, negotiations between the Scottish and Westminster governments while the terms of separation are negotiated, legislation in both parliaments and probably some important court cases where private citizens (just like Gina Miller with Brexit) will take the Scottish government and possibly the Westminster government to court.
Now of course, you might be right and suddenly the Westminster government and parliament will come to realise that they don’t have the power they thought they had, just like you have been saying. But I doubt it.
The Rev has been looked after.
Alec Salmond has been looked after.
Do you want to go into Indyref2 waving waterpistols and spreading little yellow Post-it notes?
Get this thing sealed up so that Lindsay can get moving with the orders.
link to indiegogo.com
** Hope the men were watching the lessons how to get into a World Cup – The Alba Gals.. 🙂
The latest Scottish Household Survey, according to the Herald, “Parents of school-age children reported far greater levels of satisfaction with local schools than the general population – with 87% saying they are content. ”
So it’s people without kids at school are unhappy with schools – people with no personal and current experience to be able to form an opinion of their own.
I wonder who formed their negative opinions for them?
If analysed properly, this Survey appears to be a condemnation of opposition spokespeople AND the media that rains negativity down on our public services.
Because that’t the only way these poor misguided people without school-age kids could otherwise get their opinions so different from those who do know about it.
Bill Hume @ 9.48
Dear Bill …. I do understand your point of view and I am not disparaging Police officers in any way..
I am sayin that we have no right to put those dogs in the middle of our issues in the first place
You might want the dog between your family and the idiots.
I completely understand, but it doesn’t make it right
Your children choose to become Police officers and they even get a further choice on whether or not to act… the animals don’t.
I would have hoped that we as a society would be moving towards not using animals and,in particular dogs, in this way?
But then to attempt to give them more rights than the handlers have is just plain stupid.
Your daughter and son inlaw are not allowed to bite anyone and use all the force they can to restrain a person… they cannot use excessive force.
If we pass a law that a police dog has the same rights as its handler,,,I ask again where is the legislation for excessive force being used by a police dog,because if there is none the dog by default has more rights!
Its going to be a bad law Bill,and a law that dose nothing for the dog.
At the very least it puts human rights into question…
The State is allowing an animal to attack you and removed your right to defend yourself from that attack.
Where, once again, at that point in time you are guilty of nothing.
It’s very simple if you don’t want police dogs to get hurt…don’t have them attack people..
TD @ 22:04:
Well, absolutely. Of course. But that’s everything! I’m not sure you appreciate the fundamental nature of that point. The London government immediately lose all authority over us as a consequence. We are not their chattels or serfs.
Whit? This is the polar opposite of what you just wrote. The rUK doesn’t own us, and independence isn’t a begging bowl to be pleaded for, which is what that line of reasoning implies.
There will certainly have to be a considerable amount of negotiation required, no-one can dispute that, but it’s all after the fact, not before it. The rUK can’t (say) stop us becoming independent on some legalistic technicality of their own devising.
There was a letter to a similar effect in The National the other day. Another conjuring of multiple obstacles. Even referring to the USA as an example, Lord sakes! As if George Washington and the Continental Army should have waited with great forbearance until every “t” had been crossed and every “i” dotted on their independence prospectus before bothering to take up arms! =laugh=
Well, real life doesn’t work like that. As the American colonists at least were astute enough to realise.
They argued for quite some time after achieving practical independence before deciding how exactly they were going to exercise it. (Some may say they are arguing about it still!)
Good evening Michael Donnelly.
Good evening Anonymous… that’s you that is…
link to indiegogo.com
12 personal new Yes flags to go to get to a quarter of one thou.
1,000,000 leaflets a comin’ your way Scotland.
Sweet cherry like:
link to youtube.com
@yesindyref2
“I wonder who formed their negative opinions for them?”
Wee Johnny: “Miss, Miss, I know, I know.
Miss: OK Johnny why don’t you tell the class.
Wee Johnny: It wis that bird Jackie, ah saw it oan the telly!
Yes We Can now has the magic number. 😉
During a Scottish independence referendum surely it should be debated, discussed, fought over etc ONLY IN SCOTLAND?
The EU didn’t get involved in our EU referendum. Why should anyone – MPs, celebrities, ordinary folk – from England, Wales or N Ireland, have a say or input of any kind?
It is nothing to do with them. It will be OUR referendum.
Robert Sutherland at 10:33
“I suggest [..] that the referendum will […] simply give political authority.
Well, absolutely. Of course. But that’s everything!”
No it isn’t and asserting that it is will not make it true. Political authority is very important – vital even – but it is not everything.
The Scottish government had the political authority to hold a referendum on independence when they were elected in 2011. But they did not have the legal authority until they had passed The Scottish Independence Referendum Act 2013. If it is as you say, why did Alex Salmond and the government push that legislation through the Scottish parliament?
Robert j Sutherland @ 10.33
I reckon that’s going to be a big part of the No campaign..
That it’s all going to be so terribly terribly difficult we best not bother.
And Yes Robert I am very much looking forward to the day Westminster realise that we have got our own government within slapping distance and Holyrood doesn’t have the freedom to make cosy political deal’s that we don’t like.
That’s when they might work out that they have burned their bridges with the Yes movement…..Separation is no an insult it’s a goal…
We want nae part of their Supreme Court …we’ll roll our own
TD @ 10.55
The bit yer missing TD…
Is the section 30 was legislation pre the vote..
Roberts talking after the Yes vote is delivered!
And Salmond was gonnay do it anyway…section 30 was nice but not necessary….but what it did do was demonstrate to the Scottish people that a vote to leave was an actual possibility and not a Holyrood exercise in the what if…
Big mistake Westminster….
@Thepnr
We’re getting near Indy Ref 2 and I’m trying to stay out of the party political stuff, but in fairness to TG in the Herald he did actually write that bit, and I was lucky enough to pick up on it. The article has the usual #Bot-quotes from Annie Wells and Neil Findlay while also quoting Swinney.
But it’s not something the SNP factcheck can take up because it’s normal people in a survey, so it’s up to us – and it can draw attention to the way the media reports the SNP, and of course Indy.
The Prediction:
The sky will blacken with plagues of flies descending upon us, the rivers will stagnate and a deluge of cholera infected frogs and warted toads will emerge ravenous and starving with gums foaming with spittle flecked disease oozing from their pores, dogs and other domestic animals will attack men and women too because there will be no children left alive after the impetigo outbreak has taken their frail and fragile bodies from us
All this will happen and worse if we don’t ask Independent Scotland for help cried the English
Got ye all there eh!
Dr Jim – hee, hee, hee. 🙂 I’m so glad you came back to WOS.
Liz g at 11:17 p.m.
I think you are misunderstanding things. Section 30 refers to Section 30 of the Scotland Act 1988, an Act of the Westminster Parliament. An order made under Section 30 is an Order in Council, technically made by the Queen but in reality by the Westminster government. In our current woeful system of government within the UK, that is the mechanism whereby the Westminster government varies the terms of the Scotland Act 1988. In the case of the first referendum, the variation was to give the Scottish Parliament the power to legislate for a referendum. That is a power which, under the Scotland Act 1988, whether we like it or not, is reserved to Westminster. Section 30 could be used to make other variations, at the whim of Westminster.
The Scottish Independence Referendum Act 2013 was the act passed by the Scottish parliament using the powers temporarily granted under section 30. In simple terms, Section 30 is a Westminster thing, the Scottish Independence Referendum Act was very much a Scottish thing.
So I ask again – if political authority is all we need, why did the Scottish government pass legislation in the Scottish parliament? The answer of course is that to make things happen, a government first needs political authority and then it needs to legislate. I’m surprised that this is controversial.
TD @ 22:55,
I guess we’re just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I only hope that not too many people agree with you, though, or I fear we’ll never achieve independence, since in the end it’s mainly a state of mind. The infernal cringe, y’know.
However, I would claim that history backs me up on this one. The late unlamented GDR, for just one example out of many. The law there didn’t magically change to enable anything, the government collapsed essentially because its citizens in widespread concert simply gave up on it. They didn’t feel in the least need to ask anyone’s permission.
Power often accrues to those who demonstrate sufficient willing to take it.
The Section 30 thing works both ways. There is some credence to the argument that Cameron agreed to a S.30 because he knew that the SG had plans to go ahead with a referendum anyway, and he wanted to have some influence over the nature of the process. In that view it suited both parties equally. It wasn’t mere Scottish subservience to a rigid constitution. (“What rigid constitution?”, one may ask. It’s all made up on the hoof anyway.) The same English bluff may well be called again before too long.
In my view, we should stop busily erecting unnecessary obstacles in our own road. He who dares wins (to coin a phrase).
Re: Finn’s Law – I never knew that a police dog injured or killed whilst ‘on duty’ was something that wasn’t already a separate offence. I always assumed that if you stab the dog then get caught for whateverthefuck you did that you were running away from, you’d get charged for the dog injury, too.
Liz g @ 23:17,
Yes, thanks for clarifying that point. Before a “yes” vote, we’re citizens of the UK who have to work within existing law. After winning a “yes” vote, we’re our own masters, and we are the law.
The rest then is just sorting-out all the consequences with our new neighbours.
(And apologies, I seem to have assimilated your latter point in my own latest response. Credit due!)
@cactus you greedy rogue, not content with being the third contributor, that’s now 2 flags you get! I only get one.
But anyone want a second new design Yes We Can flag, it’ll only cost £25 and you have less than a day to get it:
link to indiegogo.com
TD @ 11.49
Your answer doesn’t relate to the point I was making..
I said that Robert J was talking about after the Yes vote was in and you keep asking about a section 30…
And asking why Alex Salmond signed it.
Now Alex Salmond obviously had his reasons…but “having to” wasn’t one of them… I’d go for the statement that it made..
Are you also forgetting that the Lord’s were pushing the idea that it wasn’t binding anyway as the polls tightened?
I think…
They floated the notion that Parliament hadn’t had a say and this was a Parliamentary issue and not solely for government!
The section 30 this time around would be detail anyway as Westminster has already voted to consider the Scottish People Sovereign… so the legislation is already there for that Parliament and that vote stands till they strike it down..
Tonight’s winning Euromillions Lotto nummers:
5 / 14 / 28 / 30 / 47 (yer lucky ***’s 4 & 11)
Dang, ah didnae win dat.
SO my UK Millionaire Maker code was JFVC 55517.
Ah wonder if it’s a winner like.
Will check in the marnin’.
Pie.
I’ve said this before on here. The EU didn’t front, fund or campaign in any way in the UK’s EU referendum. It should be and must be the exact same for the UK in Scotland’s IndyRef. According to UN articles colonial powers are not allowed to interfere in any colony’s referendum on self determination. They cannot delay such a referendum or vote. While we are on paper an equal partner in a Union, in practice we are an occupied territory. Yet Theresa has stated that “now is not the time” and the walking cartoon JRM we “should have another in 20 years”. It’s NOT FOR THEM TO DECIDE.
The terms of any Section 30 must be dictated by the Scottish government. It must stipulate ZERO interference or input from Westminster and that includes the corrupt Electoral Commission, UK governments civil service and departments. It must also mean that ALL FUNDS be raised in Scotland for and against. All campaigning must be from those living in Scotland. Nobody from the EU was campaigning for or against the UK in or out of the EU. They didn’t fund either side. The EU took no part in the UK’s EU referendum. If Westminster will not agree to these terms then we should hold OUR IndyRef without a Section 30 and legislate to include these terms in OUR referendum. In OUR IndyRef, the UK must be completely out with the referendum. The EU referendum has set a precedent and English law is based on them. We don’t need a Section 30 not should we want one unless it states ZERO INVOLVEMENT FROM THE UK and they agree to abide by that. (They won’t even if they did agree. They’re corrupt to their core). The EU referendum was non binding yet the UK government has accepted the result and have said “Brexit” means leaving the EU. That’s another precedent nail in their coffin.
They should have ZERO involvement in the question, timing, franchise or anything else. They should accept the result and acknowledge the UK is over if/ when it’s a Yes vote. They’ll still have a foot in the referendum through their media being “our” media too. Unfortunately there’s not much we can do about that. What they cannot have is the ability to finance the colonialist camp. To coordinate the colonialist campaign (though through their English parties Scottish branches they’ll have the ability to do that also).
The incompetents, bigots and morons they’ve filled their Scottish branches with are their only people to front the campaign, in the next IndyRef. It will have to be fronted by them as Westminster politician not living in Scotland should be BANNED. They could call on Snackbeard or other MP’s representing Scottish constituencies. We will know they are puppets and should be pointing that out at every turn to every voter.
The question should be something that even the most moronic can understand. “Do you want Scotland to be a normal, self governing country or England’s colony?” After all a no vote last time meant exactly that to Westminster. At least this question is honest and I’d like to see Ruth Dark Money Davidson, campaign with funds she had to raise in Scotland and the hostile media forced to try to convince the stupid, they want to be a colony.
In this up and comming referendum we Scotland have to take ownership and control. No “Vows” or purdah breaking promises this time to be tolerated. We should have ZERO tolerance for anything but ZERO input from Westminster.
I might come and go a wee bit on the question, but no leeway on ANY Westminster interference at all. Like we all know, they’ll still have their BBC and 99% hostile media.
In my post at 11:49, all references to the Scotland Act 1988 should of course have read the Scotland Act 1998.
Robert Sutherland at 11:54
I agree that we should not raise obstacles to independence, but neither should we be naïve about the hurdles we need to clear. I hope that your reference to the GDR does not fit what will happen here. In their case, the state stopped functioning and people took advantage of that to bring about reform and ultimately re-unification. But chaos prevailed for years and the German economy suffered greatly as the prosperous West absorbed the bankrupt East. The cost to Germany as a whole (but in reality West Germany because the East had no money) has been estimated at 2 trillion Euros.
In Scotland, I would like to see an orderly transition out of the UK and into a state of independence. Personally I favour Scottish independence within the EU. To achieve that orderly transition, we will need to pass legislation. I don’t regard that as a barrier, but rather as an opportunity to shape and create the Scotland that we want and to avoid the sort of chaos that engulfed East Germany.
Incidentally to what happens in Scotland, Westminster will also pass legislation, if only to tidy up their new found status, whatever that status might be. As I said in an earlier comment, I really don’t see why that should be controversial.
RobRobert j Sutherland @ 12.01
Nae bother Robert J it’s been hard to follow the conversation because my posts are taking forever to show up…
Reluctant Nationalist @ 11.56
As I understand it,you are charged with damaging property
And the argument is that these dogs are more than just property.
But then it gets ridiculous and they are to be given the same rights as an officer, which in theory actually gives these dogs that people own,,,more rights than officers.
Now if ye can buy and sell something… Its property..
We used to do it to humans and we called it slavery.
We don’t call buying a dog slavery… Do you see what I mean it gets stupid…??
It doesn’t do anything for dog’s it just makes us feel better and gives the State more power..
We should not allow our Government to train animals to attack us…..
And can I just point out they get used in marches and demonstrations as well!
Liz g at 12:13 a.m.
“you keep asking about a section 30…”
I think it was you who raised the Section 30 point. I only responded when you seemed to confuse Section 30 of the 1998 Scotland Act with the Scottish legislation that enabled the referendum to happen. Your exact words were:
“The bit yer missing TD…
Is the section 30 was legislation pre the vote..”
it sometimes happens, guys you thought were total-fannies, once they leave office, start making sense again – talk like human beings, use facts and logic etc
next up
Lord King, ex heid bummer at Bank of England …
– now, for a slot like that NO-ONE gets anywhere near it UNLESS he is totally “reliable”, kosher, or in this case “on the square” at about the 32nd level
check out this interview – its damning – “… left the government without a credible bargaining position.”
link to bbc.co.uk
– given the typical diplomatic, educated murmurings and speaking in riddles that central bankers use, what he is really saying is
YOU GUYS ARE A BUNCH OF STUPID CUNTS AND YOU FUCKEDUP BIGTIME
– this guy was a real insider once, and probably still has many ears to the ground
Note the class cringe of the BBC – this guy is doing WRONGTHINK – but hey … he used to run the Bank of England – so letting the junior hack do a sloppy hitpiece is out of bounds even if he is seriously toe-ing the govt
Not seen it on the Daily Mail, they might do a –
“yeah but … this guys probably senile or something … and might even be a paedo … LOLZ”
– no, the BBC cannot treat “one of our own” like that, the way we treat the colonials
This is good news folks – it is pretty much confirmed this brexit thing WILL be as bad as we need it to be – and so the question becomes does Glorious Nikki, daughter of the Sun, sister of the Moon etc… pull the trigger
– when the thing is in a death spiral, engines on fire, flames visible
– or when it actually hits the ground, survivors engulfed in flames, onlookers traumatised
(someone should do Brexit-Hindenburg memes – oh the humanity …)
– independence can now be sold to all the fearties as the SAFE option – Project Fear 2.0 – will be what WE do to THEM – Ha!
In related news – the DM covered the new poll data the Rev wrote about AND the rise in increased SNP membership – the comment shrieking was glorious
“Oderint, dum metuant”
TD @ 12.41
Again TD…
All the legislation was pre the vote…
Which has no bearing on what the position would be after the Yes vote …
I know you are basing your comments on how things currently are and how things were envisioned to play out on a 2014 yes vote….. And that is fair comment,even informed comment.
But a Yes vote this time around is almost certainly not going to have a similar route.
One of the main reasons being the White Paper,that was almost a manifesto/blue print for leaving..and truth be told I’d have called that Devo Max…
The next big reason is Europe… Nothing is the same anymore and being so accommodating to another member state who’s economy we are giving a shock to and who could smooth our way in to the EU, is no a priority anymore…
So for those and a fair few other reasons I cannot see Holyrood being too fussed about what legislation Westminster thinks it needs!!
I also have a bit of a suspicion that the Continuity Bill was an exercise in just how to bring all Scottish law home.
I don’t think it’s controversial either…but one thing we haven’t mentioned is that Scotland will be writing our Constitution and Holyrood may be limited in what it can do,or be bound by until that process has a shape!
And Westminster will just have to “sit on it” till we’re done!
@ Liz g
Ah, OK, I think I see what you mean. I’ve tried to search for what this law means in reality, but the best I can find is that no-one can claim self-defence against ‘service animals’ anymore. Hmmmmm.
Is it the Tories who want this passed?
Reluctant Nationalist @ 1.27
I think the Tories suggested it and there’s been a campaign!
But it seems to have support across Holyrood..
I don’t think there’s actually been anything written yet but the whole premise seems mad.
I’m pretty sure that they have something like this in Amercia!
Would be nice though if Scotland was the first to say we’ll protect the dog’s by just not putting them in harms way.
As I said the dog’s don’t give a shit who stole what,those are human issues!
Liz g at 1:24 a.m.
“So for those and a fair few other reasons I cannot see Holyrood being too fussed about what legislation Westminster thinks it needs!!”
You seem to be arguing against a point I have not made. I simply stated that legislation would be required following a Yes vote. I did not specify whether that would be legislation in the Scottish parliament or the Westminster parliament. In fact, I think that there would be legislation in both but I agree that as far as delivering on the expressed will of the Scottish people is concerned, Westminster legislation will not be necessary. Scottish legislation would be necessary and Westminster legislation – after a Yes vote – would allow rUK to tidy up its position and would probably smooth the way for us. But I agree that in a strict legal sense, we would not need Westminster to legislate after the vote.
This debate arose because Robert Sutherland stated that political authority was everything. I disagreed and referred to the Scottish Independence Referendum Act 2013 as an example where a government – the Scottish government – had political authority to do something – hold a referendum – but needed legislation to make it happen. You then started going on about Section 30 which is a completely different issue.
I need to turn in now but I hope that has clarified things. It has been a pleasure debating the point with you.
@schrodingers cat says: 3 September, 2018 at 8:15 pm:
“@rp
harsh
unnecessarily so”
Well no it is not harsh – this guy has been pushing misinformation for a very long time and when corrected just continues with the misinformation.
” … the currency question will come up, no question
a discussion on here wouldnt do any harm.”
Yes it will come up – again, and again, and again and it will continue to come up because of the deliberate pushing of false information.
” … i am not an economist but there are many very qualified to inform and educate the many readers WOS has about this subject”
I’m not an economist either but I’m not an idiot either.
” … your beef seems to be about the correct terms that should be used when referring to Westminster and Holyrood, ie rUK and Scotland and not UK.”
Well no! In this instance that is a linked but separate issue. Seems either I’m not explaining it properly or you have the wrong end of the stick.
The whole issue is the real legal standing of the entity that is the United Kingdom. What it actually legally is as opposed to how Westminster is illegally running it.
It really is a very simple concept. There were two independent kingdoms in the British Isles. Due to the old rule of law that prevailed throughout Christendom, (that’s basically Europe) the old rule of law was, “The Divine Right of Kings”.
Christians believed that God chose the monarchs/leaders by planting them in a royal womb and the Monarchs were Gods representatives on Earth and their word was law. That is sovereignty and the Queen, in England, is referred to as the Sovereign.
Except that Scotland bucked the trend. I’ll not bore you with the real reason but it came about by the Declaration of Arbroath in 1320. Previous to that the Kingdom of England had annexed, (under divine right of Kings that ruled God decided the winner of wars between monarchs and the winner annexed the loser’s Kingdom or Princedom.
Furthermore, Royals only married other royals and the male annexed the female’s kingdom if she was already a Queen. Also, if a royal inherited a kingdom he/she annexed it to his/her existing kingdom. The upshot was that kingdoms became fewer but larger and in Britain there were only two Kingdoms left.
However the Kingdom of Scotland monarch was not sovereign under Scottish Law and when he inherited the Kingdom of England the English used the fact he was not sovereign in Scotland and refused to be annexed as part of the Kingdom of Scotland.
However, this was a personal United Kingdom for James VI of Scotland & I of England. (The Union of the Crowns). There were also the three English Crown dependencies which, (even today), are NOT parts of the United Kingdom Parliament but are part of the Queen’s personal United Kingdom.
So there’s the truth The personal United Kingdom of Queen Elizabeth includes the two Channel Island Bailiwicks and Isle of Man but the Westminster Parliament does not rule the Crown dependencies. The United Kingdom parliament does NOT rule Britain.
So, legally, after independence there will remain the Queen’s personal United Kingdom including the Crown dependencies but the, two Kingdom, United Kingdom Parliament ends and returns to two being two independent kingdoms.
There simply cannot be any kind of rUnited Kingdom. That simply means that Scotland is NOT leaving the United Kingdom – Scotland is ending the United Kingdom and that is quite a different matter.
Yet Westminster fosters the idea that Scotland, is just a country that is part of the United Kingdom and Scotland is leaving behind a remainder United Kingdom. That allows them to claim everything that isn’t physically in Scotland or can be removed to England.
So these people who, I believe deliberately because they are continually pulled up for doing so but then refuse to change their misleading claims and instead they blame the likes of myself who tells the truth and right here and now you are doing just that.
Note also they then project these errors onto every other facet of what they want to happen post independence.
This includes continuing to foster the belief that the Pound Sterling belongs only to England, (a.k.a The rUnited Kingdom.
That The Bank of England, (nationalised by the United Kingdom Parliament), also belongs only to England. The Armed Forces, Civil Service, and Security Services are all English – not forgetting the NATIONAL assets such as The British Museum, National Theatre, National Ballet, National Opera and God alone knows what else.
Now note this thread and the insistence that Scotland should not be “Sterlingised”. Thing is the Pound Sterling was adopted equally at the same time by the only two kingdom with signatures and royal seals on the Treaty of Union.
You cannot, “Sterlingise”, Scotland because Scotland has been Sterlingised along with England since 1 May 1707 AND SO HAS THE THREE COUNTRIES OF THE KINGDOM OF ENGLAND.
… fair enough robert, but with respect, it’s possible to make yer point without becoming insulting and spoiling the thread.”
So you deduce that I’m the one spoiling the thread and being insulting? Well perhaps it doesn’t insult you that these people are treating you like an idiot by telling you false information and squealing like stuck pigs with fake indignation when their folly is exposed on the thread and you actually imagine it is me who is the bad guy spoiling the thread?
You might also notice these same people are the ones shouting most loudly for, “The United Kingdom”, to take its Nuclear Submarines out of Scotland and their aircraft from our Scottish territory. Of course they are. The truth, though, is they want , “The United Kingdom”, to have those Nuclear submarines and other military gear but on independence the United Kingdom has ended and it is the Kingdom of England they want to get all that rather expensive gear that we Scots have paid more than our fair share to provide.
If the KINGDOMOF ENGLAND wants the United Kingdom owned gear they will need to buy the Scottish share of them from the Kingdom of Scotland because The Kingdom of Scotland is not leaving the rUnited Kingdom it is separating from the Kingdom of England.
Have I spelled it out clear enough for you this time, schrodingers cat?
TD @ 00:34,
I guess we do fundamentally disagree. You see a bunch of legalistic hoops (or even traps laid by our opponents?), all of which we have to jump through successfully in order to achieve independence even after a vote [I hope I don’t misrepresent you there in simplifying], and any failure in any of them is therefore potentially catastrophic. Whereas I only see one hurdle: a simple majority vote for “yes”. The rest is simply dealing with the irreversible consequences thereafter.
It has to be done, I grant you, and not trivial, but it’s all incidental to the fact that once the UK has lost the argument in the public arena, it’s toast. A humiliating loss-of-face situation from which there is no possible recovery. Which is why the BritNats were so nervous, and increasingly so it would seem now all their false promises and lies have bitten the dust.
That incidentally was my point about the GDR, not the details that followed in their situation, which you latched upon as something of a distraction. It worked out in the end for them, but that’s neither here nor there. Our situation going into independence will be very different, as you likely know. I think everyone except maybe the worst BritNat zoomer will expect that the transition will be perfectly orderly.
It will likely take some considerable time to work through in all its ramifications, but that doesn’t alter the fundamental point: the change in the location of our sovereignity will be immediate, and everyone will know and feel it as soon as it happens.
Goodnight TD
Robert J Sutherland @ 2.08
I think that’s the one big difference as well Robert.
Last time Sovereignty wasn’t front and centre of the debate.
I felt it barely got a mention, this time it will be there.
And thanks to Brexit people have a better understanding of what it actually is.
That’s what will make all the difference we will have voted for Holyrood to take control and expect it’s authority to be immediate.
That’s political and because we are Sovereign also legal
Liz G, Finn and Finns Law have been all over Twitter and basically all over to try and bring about Finns Law.
He is a Police Dog who was left at deaths door after being attacked while he was working. The pictures of him are there and it as serious as it gets.
There’s been a big campaign supported by people from all walks of life,Police Scotland dog section and politicians although Liam Kerr seems to be the one putting his name to it loudly.
There’s the K9 memorial as well who have been fund raising for a memorial for all dogs who have been in the service.
Thing is Liz, the dogs are not used to attack people, they can be used to stop you AFTER you have been warned to stop but Is there a better way to track a missing person ?
If it was left to me, I’d also get the law to cover any animal used in the services such as the horses because I think it speaks volumes about someone’s mindset if they’re prepared to attack an animal, what would they do to a human?
Why on earth wasn’t Finn’s Law in place donkey’s years ago ?
These animals are acting as police officers, WITHOUT the understanding and consent that they are truly in the path of real danger.
So, yes, these trusting creatures SHOULD ABSOLUTELY have whatever protection is possible from the law as a deterrent to would be attackers same as a human police officer.
To boot, the trained dogs and horses have animal skills that no human could offer. It is way past time to recognise and protect these valued officers now.
Sterlingisation, is the term that was used by the Fiscal Commission Working Group in their “Fiscal Commission Working Group – First Report – Macroeconomic Framework”:
“7.26 As an aside, there is the option for Scotland to adopt Sterling through an informal process of ‘sterlingisation’.”
link to gov.scot
and SPICEe:
“INFORMAL USE OF POUND STERLING: ‘STERLINGISATION’
‘Sterlingisation’ refers to the process of continuing to use the pound sterling in an informal currency union.”
link to parliament.scot
There are countless other examples.
If it’s good enough for the SNP Scot Gov’s own Independence FCWG, and the information service of the Holyrood Parliament, plus all economists, credit rating agencies, bankers and the whole wide world and its dug, then it’s good enough for me.
At the point of start of using a currency that is not controlled by the country using it, is not issued by the country using it, and is not bought and sold for currency stabilisation purposes by the country using it, except in normal Central Bank buying and selling of currencies, then unless there is a formal currency union in place, it is called dollarisation, euroisation, or – sterlingisation.
That’s the definitive way it is.
“End of” as they say!
FCWG: “Membership is drawn from the First Minister’s [1] Council of Economic Advisers. The Chair is Crawford Beveridge CBE.
The members were:
Crawford Beveridge
Professor Andrew Hughes Hallett
Professor Sir James Mirrlees
Professor Frances Ruane
Professor Joseph Stiglitz
[1] Alex Salmond
Liz G @ 8.28 pm
Re using animals for attack, I see your point too!
I just do not want animals to suffer at all!
As things stand, and animals are used, in many instances unfairly, then any person hurting an animal put in the way of harm should face the full force of a suitably deterring law.
The German economy is one of the most successful in the world. In surplus. Scotland would be the same. Germany was not allowed to re arm after 11WW and soent the funds on the economy not on redundant weaponry. Building modern factories etc. The reunification was successful.
Many countries are now self governing and with self detertermination are now doing better with EU help. All of them. What is holding Europe back, damaging the economy and costing money is the UK/US illegal wars which have caused untold damage. Causing the worst migration in Europe since the 11WW. Poland was handed back to Russian dominance after the war by the Allies at Yalta.
People in Scitland want to keep the pound for a while. That is why the SNP went for it, There is no reason not to as Scotland has a right to it. They help found the BoE and funded and contributed to it. In reserves etc. The people can decide by a mandate when/if they want to change. Even the unionists admitted it.
The Irish Republic kept it pegged to the pound/punt until they joined the Euro in 1998. Their economy flourished and they had great growth. According to the IMF the fifth economy on the scale. Above Norway and UAE. They do not have Scotland’s resources. Resources which have been misused and mismanaged by Westminster for years with and secrecy. Especially the Oil sector.
It does not matter what tradeable currency is used. A name. It is just a form of exchange. What matters is balancing the books. Scotland would do even better without Westminster gross, incompetent interference. Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion has cost Scotland dear. The illegal and secret taking of Scottish resources. Kept secret illegally under the Official Secrets Act. Iraq, Dunblane and Lockerbie kept secret for 100 years. The McCrone Report kept hidden. Thatcher. Brexit is another Poll Tax, according to a Tory.
The unionists Parties are a shambles. A disgrace. People are sick of it. Westminster policies are damaging the economy. Sanctioning and starving people. The economy and the pound going down. People are having to pay for it.
Scotland will vote for Independence. Then agreements will be worked out.
Links
link to news.gov.scot
link to scotgoespop.blogspot.com
Joanna Cherry on the Windrush scandal
Video here
link to twitter.com
Former miners in Scotland urged to speak out about their strike suffering
link to archive.is
link to news.gov.scot
link to imgonnasayitanyway.wordpress.com
link to thoughtcontrolscotland.com
Quite amazing answer. Raab says ability to consult the Scot gov will be constrained by Article 50 timetable which “is not of our choosing”. Really? Who set the withdrawal date in law despite all the opposition parties arguing it would create inflexibility
Video here
link to twitter.com
Barrhead boy talks with Tommy Sheridan
link to viloud.tv
link to grumpyscottishman.wordpress.com
link to spice-spotlight.scot
link to anotherangryvoice.blogspot.com
Good grief, Who are these people?
link to lbc.co.uk
link to jonworth.eu
link to opendemocracy.net
link to businessinsider.es
link to politico.eu
Brexit: the delusions multiply
link to eureferendum.com
link to bloomberg.com
Britain’s biggest insulin supplier has said it is building up a four-month stockpile to ensure that diabetic patients are not left without vital medications in the event of a no-deal Brexit.
link to archive.is
Brexit could drive up energy bills, say power firms
link to archive.is
link to axios.com
link to edition.cnn.com
link to theconversation.com
BBC Radio Scotlandy interviewing politicians this morning with regards to their thoughts on the Scottish Governments 2018/19 programme.
Oui Willie Rennie was on having a moan earlier and the Jackson 5 Carlaw, tory, is up furra greet just after 07:30.
That should be a laugh anna half!
Aye so it appears The Holyrood 18/19 term BritNat Slogan is “SNP out of ideas, and Scottish Government tired an run it’s natural course and requires a change”
Must be true ‘cos Wee Wullie 1p, Jackson Carlot day so on Radio Shortbreid.
Also the ‘Scottish’ Daily Fail and ‘Scottish’ Daily Express have the same headline:
“SNP Government past it’s sell by date”
Coordinated British Nationalist campaign position Methinks.
Liz g says:
4 September, 2018 at 9:43 pm
“And speak of how they should manage the leaving of Scottish MPs….”
ha, ha, ha,! Did you read the bit “Voters in the [rest of the UK] may well resent being forced to have a second election so soon for no other reason—one foreseeable before the 2015 election—than Scottish independence”
I thought that was
That was a belter, that one! So the dissolution of the United Kingdom of Great Britain may not be not enough reason for a GE, but the Tories can call a snap GE at any point they want if it suits their agenda.
It is quite clear these people do not see the UK parliament as the parliament of the united kingdom of Great Britain at all. They see it as the “united parliament of “the kingdom” of England, wales and NI and that is what I find, frankly, disturbing.
Inverkeithing by-election tomorrow.
Two independent. 8 candidates in total.
STV is a minefield!
Cactus thanks for that I have avoided it like the proverbial plague.
Nana as usual , many thanks.
I love Wings with all these clever folk who pass on relevant information and different thoughts!
@TD
You asked
“So it would need an act of parliament. But which parliament?”
That was my answer: the only parliament that can issue an Act on behalf of Scotland once a yes vote has been achieved is the Parliament of Scotland. And the reason is because it is elected 100% by the Scottish people versus a parliament where only the 10% is elected by the people of Scotland and the 90% is elected by the partner of the union.
TD says:
4 September, 2018 at 10:04 pm
“I think it is quite clear what I meant”
Sorry, but no, it isn’t, particularly in the context of brexit where there are no information whatsoever and yet, it is happening.
“But how will independence be delivered?”
TD, with due respect, I think it is a bit rich to ask “how independence will be delivered” when we don’t even have a yes vote yet while we have the situation where we are being dragged out of the EU against our expressed democratic will and without our consent or mandate by the UK government and UK parliament and we don’t have a clue how brexit is going to be delivered.
“Take just one simple point – on what date would it happen?”
Again, TD, did you demand from the Leave campaign to state the day the UK would leave the EU before the EU ref? so why is for you so fundamental to know even before the campaign for Indyref has started when Scotland will become independent?
“First time round we were just asked if we wanted Scotland to be an independent nation”
Did the question in the ballot for the EU ref stated the day brexit would start? Again, so why are you demanding a difference?
“The Scottish government had indicated its target date of March 2016 if I remember correctly, but this would have required legislation”
Well, TD, does Brexit nor require legislation too?
“It would not have just happened because the government declared that as its target”
The tories have marked end of March 2019 as the target for the UK to leave the EU and, frankly, nothing has happened yet.
Your point is?
@Nana
Cheers Nana. Cuppa sorted and now down to a bit of reading. 🙂
@TD
“It is quite in order for the parliament of one country to legislate regarding its relationship with another country”
Indeed but what that country cannot do is to legislate “on behalf” of the other country. I am sure we at least can agree on that.
link to newsnet.scot
Sign the pledge
link to indynation.scot
Alison Thewliss
I asked about the conflict in Yemen at Foreign Office Questions – with Spain today suspending arms sales to Saudi Arabia, how many more children need to be blown to pieces on their school bus before the UK suspends arms sales
link to youtube.com
The ScotConservatives came pretty close to “dumb of the week” with their jumping on the bandwagon a bit too quickly on the Scottish civil war stories. While the world was hilariously lampooning the media reporting of the “SNP civil war” they chose to announce that the SNP was “consumed by factions and chaos.” With impeccable timing they used those same newspaper stories as proof. 🙂
link to twitter.com
Thepnr says:
4 September, 2018 at 10:10 pm
FWIW I believe the chances of the UK leaving the EU at 23:00 on 29th March are less than 50%.
My guess a 6-9 months extension to article 50 to let everybody get their act together and a bit more realistic when it comes to finally sorting something out.
I agree, Thepnr. TM will try and kick this into the (slightly longer) grass for as long as she can. And yep, this will only work for a few months – but I really hope the Scottish government have factored in this possibility with regard to timing IndyRef 2. TM knows well that IndyRef must be held at the best opportune time for the BritNats and not the other way round.
Regarding May’s cunning plan, however, the big stinking elephant in the room are the hard Brexiteers (and it looks like they are starting maneuvers already). Will the hardliners accept a delayed Brexit? (without creating mayhem and spliting the tories and the country apart? Mmmmmmmm, not too sure about that one, Mrs May. 🙂
Concentrated front page unionist attack on SNP government this morning in the Scottish press, except National. Does not merit a single mention in the London based UK media but nothing new there.
Some of these Scottish editions have simply printed what they have been told to without amendment e.g “past sell by date” is duplicated.
This sort of thing is beginning to work for us I think as the public are getting rather fed up at the constant negativity and especially looking at the demented state of the Tories and Labour.
What a joke the Scottish press now are.
Thoughts on Brexit from folks at the Edinburgh book festival ….
link to youtube.com
Q How will it end?
A (from one) With a free and independent Scotland!
@Maria F
Hi Maria
Was out last night so I’m playing catch up this morning. Well tbh, my preference or yours is neither here nor there. The S30 route is currently preferred by the Scottish government and their obvious route of choice for two reasons. Firstly, because it was a set precedent. Secondly, because it is a purely political preference as opposed to a personal one. It is a public statement of intent by both parties to abide by the result. Preventing legal challenges to the nature of the ballot and the outcome etc. The only caveat being, ‘a material change in circumstance’.
Personally, I’d say the other balloted options are just as viable. Each one committing Westminster to honour the result morally or legally (eventually). The positive to take away from the current approach is that should one option be closed off? There is another, and yet another, and yet another. Each with their own pros and cons and there are none of them without those.
Morning Dorothy, ah just listen in to the bbc radio scotlandy for entertainment value only now. LBC similar thing.
Congratulations are due again… the ‘Indy Kits for Yes groups’ crowdfunder has now been funded in full. 🙂
You still have the rest of today to get your Yes We Can Scotland flag.
link to indiegogo.com
Now.
X.
RE: Theresa Mays stalling,
May is stalling for time, and there will be several reasons for that, but one of the main reasons will be because she understands that the general public are for the most part still unaware of the full impact of Brexit.
As long as the headlines are ‘he said, she said’ the people will skim over these arguments and go to the pages that tell them the latest celebrity gossip.
If she were to be truthful and admit the UK is sleepwalking towards disaster ans she doesn’t have a clue what to do about it, the people would suddenly start paying attention and do what they always do at a time of economic crisis…Stop Spending!
This would start a snowball running downhill, that would in itself cause further headlines, until everyone and their granny would suddenly know what the Tories had just done to the UK.
They want to avoid this at all costs, and to keep the ‘mushrooms in the dark’ so it’s ‘as you were’
She can’t hide the truth much longer and she knows it, but she (and her civil service advisers ) just don’t know what else they can do.
@Jockanese Wind Talker says: 5 September, 2018 at 7:54 am:
” … Also the ‘Scottish’ Daily Fail and ‘Scottish’ Daily Express have the same headline:”
Wee spelling mistake there, Jockanese Wind Talker:-
” … Also the ‘Scottish’ Daily Fail and ‘Scottish’ Daily Depress have the same headline:” There sorted it for you.
I stand corrected @Robert Peffers says at 9:25 am
🙂
Maria F
A new thread has started so this will be my last comment on this topic.
“the only parliament that can issue an Act on behalf of Scotland once a yes vote has been achieved is the Parliament of Scotland”
That is not strictly true. Following a Yes vote in a referendum, Scotland will remain in the UK for a time. During that period, the Westminster parliament will continue to legislate about Scottish affairs. Some of that legislation will be routine such as the Finance Bill which will set budgets including the block grant to Scotland. If they didn’t do that, the Scottish government would run out of money. However, I agree that following a Yes vote, Westminster’s effective power to control Scotland’s destiny will be greatly reduced and the centre of power over Scotland will start to move back to Scotland immediately after a Yes vote.
“I think it is quite clear what I meant”
“Sorry, but no, it isn’t, particularly in the context of brexit where there are no information whatsoever and yet, it is happening”.
I have done my best to explain the difference between political authority and legal authority and I gave the legislation enabling the first indyref as an example. I cannot make it clearer. I’m not sure why you seem to be associating me with Brexit – it is not my doing!
“did you demand from the Leave campaign to state the day the UK would leave the EU before the EU ref? so why is for you so fundamental to know even before the campaign for Indyref has started when Scotland will become independent?”
No. It’s not fundamental to me to know before the campaign the date of independence. Again you seem to associate me with Brexit. I voted remain! However, after the vote and before it happens, we will need to know the date of independence. That date will be determined by the Scottish government and will be legislated for. If the government did not legislate, it would not happen.
“Well, TD, does Brexit nor require legislation too?”
Yes it does – as we have seen. Brexit legislation has been the primary focus of the Westminster parliament for the last year or so. Again you seem to associate me with Brexit, but there are some parallels between Brexit and Scottish Independence. If we use Brexit as an example, then I think my point about legislation being required after the vote is well demonstrated.
“The tories have marked end of March 2019 as the target for the UK to leave the EU and, frankly, nothing has happened yet.
Your point is?”
Eh, I think the reason that nothing has happened yet is that March 2019 is in the future. But seriously, if the Westminster government had not legislated, it would not be about to happen. That was the whole point of the Gina Miller case in the UK Supreme Court.
“…country cannot do is to legislate “on behalf” of the other country. I am sure we at least can agree on that”
Yes we can.
Given the rapidly rising British Nationalist onslaught against Scottish Independence it is high time we get going with some Civil Disobedience.
In the first instance let’s start with actions which will not damage any persons or property:-
Title of FM to be replaced by Prime Minister.
Title of Presiding Officer to be replaced by Speaker.
In 2007 we manged to replace Scottish Executive with Scottish Government and the Bad Guys made no serious attempt to stop that.
If these relatively soft tactics have no effect we need to move on to more serious efforts perhaps taking heed of what the Suffragettes did
Target 1 – the disgusting provocative flag that flies form Edinburgh Castle every day waving 2 fingers at us.
Molly @ 2.35
Dogs are used for various things throughout the Uniformed services,Molly!
As you said their particular set of instincts are very useful, tracking being only one.
But dogs who do “man” work are trained to jump at bite and pull to the ground humans that their handlers direct them to.
This by any definition is an attack ( what would you call it if a human did it to you)
These dogs are also used for crowd control/ intimidation.
(And in the expectation of pelters) the person who put Finn in harms way was his handler, Police Scotland, Holyrood and you and me the tax payers and voters of Scotland.
Finn had nothing to say about it, Finn followed his training, a big part of which was not to stop, even if he is hurt… not to back away and run away.
That’s not a choice to be brave,to perform a duty, to serve!! Or any other Birthday card pish… that’s just training
Dogs don’t think laterally and believe me any memorials and tribute means not a thing to them!
Now while tracking and alerting and leading/guiding are all instincts that belong in the human canine relationship… attack is not, to loose their natural deffrence to humans ( quite a sensible approach as humans can really hurt them) that has to be trained and trained and trained into them.
Their training and work is all over the internet too.. if you go looking pay particular attention to how difficult it is to stop them.. not in training videos but in the real situation footage.
There’s plenty of footage of their handlers kicking and punching and quite violently pulling them off people.
Then look at the crowd control footage…… and imagine Ruth Davison in charge!!
Ghillie @ 3.21
I feel the same way about the animals Ghillie.
And that’s a big part of my problem with this law as I’ve heard it proposed.
Are we to believe that we/society/government have now protected the dogs in some way.
Because we haven’t, we really haven’t.
All we would be doing is making ourselves feel better.
The state would have a deterrent against damaging it’s asset.
What benefits the dog here?
They can bring in Finns law,and they probably will, but they shouldn’t get to pretend it’s for the dogs benefit … the dogs gain nothing, they will still be sent in and people will still do whatever they can to deflect the attack at the time…. the only real way to stop the dog getting hurt is not to order it in…
Macart says:
5 September, 2018 at 9:06 am
Thank you Macart for your answer. This part of it leaves me quite unsettled, to be frank:
“It is a public statement of intent by both parties to abide by the result”
We all have seen what the English establishment did in the last indyref and we can all expect an even worse interference by the English establishment in our business during indyref2 for the obvious reasons. So frankly, compromising themselves to “obey by the result” when the result may be obtained by rather dodgy methods as it was, in my opinion, the last indyref1 is chaining themselves to the wall. I am not sure I am happy with that reason, to be honest.
So frankly, “a public statement of intent by both parties to abide by the result” without a clause that ensures the result is trustworthy and was obtained by fair, balanced between the 2 sides and clean ways, means it is a trap.
TD says:
5 September, 2018 at 10:46 am
“That is not strictly true”
I think you find it is. A yes vote is a rejection of UK parliament and UK government rule. There is no way out of it.
“Following a Yes vote in a referendum, Scotland will remain in the UK for a time”
Did you actually read the link I posted above? Even die hard unionist lords in there admitted in 2014 (when they were sure Independence would not win) that after a Yes vote the UK parliament would be very hard push to have any credibility to issue such Act. Did you read the intervertion of Carmichael, the then Secretary of State for Scotland? Read it again: 2 Acts, one by the Scottish Parliament and another by the UK Parliament.
“During that period, the Westminster parliament will continue to legislate about Scottish affairs”
It cannot legislate about Scottish affairs spanning beyond the independence date. That was also in the link.
“I have done my best to explain the difference between political authority and legal authority”
Sorry, it is still not clear. A yes vote is removing political and legal authority over Scotland from the UK parliament.
“I’m not sure why you seem to be associating me with Brexit”
Because you seem to be demanding things before the YES vote that have already been proved as not required for brexit to progress. Brexit also involves dissolving a treaty and stopping a bigger parliament acting on behalf of the UK.
Brexit is the expression of independence of England from the EU.
“No. It’s not fundamental to me to know before the campaign the date of independence”
Was it fundamental for you too to know before the EU ref vote the date the UK would be leaving the EU?
“I voted remain!”
So allegedly did Ruth Davidson, Corbyn, May and Mundell. Yet, they have all become die hard brexiteers.
“After the vote and before it happens, we will need to know the date of independence”
No we don’t. We will need to know the date after the vote happens, not before. Look at brexit. Sorry, you cannot demand something different for Scotland when the UK government and parliament has walked over the same demand.
“Yes it does – as we have seen”
And it is legislation that is not being passed in the EU parliament, is it? No, it is happening in the UK parliament. The legislation for an Independent Scotland will be passed in the parliament of Scotland.
“If we use Brexit as an example, then I think my point about legislation being required after the vote is well demonstrated”
AFTER the vote, TD, not before. After the vote the UK parliament loses legitimacy to represent Scotland, as the EU parliament has lost legitimacy representing the UK. The only parliament that can credibly pass legislation for Scotland after a yes vote is the Parliament of Scotland.
“I think the reason that nothing has happened yet is that March 2019 is in the future”
I however think that nothing has happened because the tories are after a no deal and want to modify legislation when they are free of EU control.
“But seriously, if the Westminster government had not legislated, it would not be about to happen”
The Scottish parliament can legislate too. The referendum on Scotland’s independence is an expression of Scotland’s sovereignty and Scotland’s right to self-determination. The UK parliament cannot justify any intervention in the process that will not interpreted as an attempt to control the process and restrict Scotland’s sovereignty and right to self-determination.
“Yes we can”
No we don’t. When a yes vote is achieved, England will not be able to legislate ever again “on behalf” of Scotland as it has been doing for the last 300 years.
Maria F @ 7.54
Hi Maria… I thought you had left this thread..
Yes I did read that bit… They really don’t do Irony do they!
I’ve often found that finding out what the Lord’s are sayin tells us much about where Westminster is really going…
RE… Your worries about going with a section 30 order!
I’m minded to say to hell with all that shit too.
But Alex Salmond himself said that he had underestimated the propaganda that took place during Purda…
No one on the Yes side is going to do that again.
I don’t think the Section 30 will be exactly like last time and I don’t think that Yes will feel bound by it either.
What’s Westminster s electoral commission going to do about it after a Yes vote anyway?
I think it will be political window dressing,they can save face and Holyrood and the SNP ( but not Yes) can be seen to be acting within the rules.
There will be,I think, an almost immediate reunification campaign,in that instance a section 30 having been in place works for us…
@Maria F
Heh. It should leave you unsettled, as it should any rational human being. How and ever, one party did abide by the rules and the outcome (also precedent). That should give you some hope over the current process. It’s only saving grace (for me anyway), is the block it it puts on legal challenges of the result.
It’s the harder route to be sure and mainly because they can bring the same governmental and media machinery to bear they did last time out. But! (And it’s a big but) Under such a circumstance they cannot then challenge any failure to win.
A curate’s egg issue. (good in parts)
Still, it’s not come to pass as yet and there may be a few twists and turns in procedure and actuality. Speculation meets reality kinda thing. 🙂
Maria F
I know I said I would not post again on this thread, but your last post has me bewildered. You are arguing against many points that I have not made and you simply ignore points that I do make. Even when I agreed with you when you said:
“Indeed but what that country cannot do is to legislate “on behalf” of the other country. I am sure we at least can agree on that.”
you now disagree with me! In other words you disagree with your own statement where you said you were SURE we could agree. It appears to me that you just want to disagree, but you’re not really fussy what you disagree about.
I’m afraid that if that is the level of debate that you wish to take part in, then I am not the right person. So I think I will just leave it at that.
Bye!
TD says:
“You are arguing against many points that I have not made and you simply ignore points that I do make”
Sometimes it is as important what you leave unsaid than what you actually say. Politicians and the corrupt MSM teach us that every single day.
“In other words you disagree with your own statement where you said you were SURE we could agree”
No I don’t. My position is and will always be the same on this: England (ie England’s representatives in Westminster) cannot longer legislate credibly “on behalf of Scotland” after a yes vote.
“I’m afraid that if that is the level of debate that you wish to take part in, then I am not the right person”
Possibly not.
Bye!
Bye, take care.
Maria F
You: “I am sure we at least can agree on that.”
Me: “Yes we can.”
You: “No we don’t.”
??????