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Wings Over Scotland

Over and over and over again

Posted on November 22, 2013 by

78 to “Over and over and over again”

  1. sneddon says:

    I see it as another reason to vote YES.  Status quo my arse, a NO vote winning would be a disaster for all of us in Scotland

  2. Kenny Campbell says:

    How very dare you Scotland…..

  3. Luigi says:

    7 billion black hole after a NO vote.  Now that’s the sort of honest headline the MSM should be running with.

  4. Ken500 says:

    The UK gov is spending £720Billion. £120Billion more is spent in the rest of the UK. What happened to Scotland’s £12Billion share.

    Scotland raises £60Billion in revenues gets £48Billion back.(Including £17Billion pensions/benefits) Exactly how is Scotland subsidised.

    Total revenues raised in the UK £610Billion (including £40Bilion Royal Mail theft?) Total spending by UK gov £720Billion.

    Why doesn’t the UK gov publish website accounts to see exactly where the monies go.

    Barnett Formula nonsense

  5. David McCann says:

    I see that the Legatum Prosperity index for 2013 is out!/?aspxerrorpath=%2F2012Findings.aspx and the Uk has dropped three places from thirteenth to sixteenth, having been overtaken by Iceland.  Norway has top place for the fifth consecutive year. Of the top ten countries seven have populations below ten million and of that seven, five have populations similar to Scotland. I wonder of Brewer/Fraser and co will be analysing the data?

  6. Atypical_Scot says:

    Goodbye NHS. Fair well free prescriptions.

  7. Andy-B says:

    I couldn’t agree more Rev.
    According to the BT camp if we leave the rUK we’ll be in financial dire straits, yet here’s the truth of the matter staring us right in the face.
    If indeed we are stupid or ignorant enough to vote no, our financial position won’t only be precarious and outwith our control,but a whole raft of cuts are already on the chopping board, just waiting to be implimented.
    Surely Scots can see this for themselves? if not, why not,  must be the most pressing question for Scots since 1707.

  8. Another London Dividend says:

    Brent Crude Oil up to to $110 to-day whereas in 2010 OBR forecast $86 for 2013 .
    IFS based its worst case forecasts on OBR projections.
    Alex Salmond / SNP projections  based on $100 a barrel and Lamont has the nerve to accuse our First Minister of fiddling the books and much worse at FMQs.
    Ironic that on the same day Miliband was complaining about Tory smears over Paul Flowers. 

  9. Robert Louis says:

    I am soooo bored with what the anti independence UK Government and truly laughable ‘better together’ unionist cabal are spouting these days.
    One the one hand, they won’t say a definitive NO to a currency union (because their economy would be in trouble without it), then spend days hinting that maybe it might not happen, so Scotland can’t use Sterling. Let’s hear Osborne say a clear NO. Then they tell us England subsidises Scotland via the Barnett formula (wholly untrue), yet the UK Prime Minister feartie Cameron tells people he will fight tooth and nail to keep Scotland.  
    Then, they talk about Scotland having a financial ‘black hole’, despite ALL credible factual figures showing Scotland contributes more to the UK than it gets back.  Then they talk about how Scotland could stand on its own two feet and be a successful independent nation, but that within the UK it is somehow magically ‘better’.  Then they talk about how an independent Scotland might not be allowed into the EU, whilst almost simultaneously telling everyone that they will have a referendum to leave the EU in 2017…  and so on blah de blah de blah.
    And on and on it goes, contradiction after contradiction, scare story after scare story, all demonstrable rubbish, yet it continues.  Day after day, I see the same silly scare stories repeated like old version of freaking jackanory, minus the fun.
    Honestly, I’m really, really getting bored with it all.  I wonder which rubbish nonsense scare story we’ll get tomorrow.  Maybe they’ll re-run the ‘forced repatriation of the pandas’ story, just to break the monotony.

  10. magnus barelegs says:

    It all comes down to this
    Swim with independence
    Sink with the union
    Better Together/Vote no is a non option…..simple when you boil it down.

  11. Peter A Bell says:

    It may be worth stressing that, whatever the benefit of the Barnett Formula is to Scotland, that money does not disappear with independence. It simply goes direct to the Scottish exchequer rather than being diverted to London to be disbursed as Westminster sees fit.
    It is only by voting No that those resources will be lost to Scotland as the British parties strive to undo the gains that we have made with devolution because they provide such an embarrassing contrast with what they are doing in England.

  12. Luigi says:

    One the one hand, they won’t say a definitive NO to a currency union (because their economy would be in trouble without it), then spend days hinting that maybe it might not happen, so Scotland can’t use Sterling.
    Bluff is an extremely risky tactic to play, and should not be tried too often.  BT, however have no choice but to play this game, courtesy of an incredibly weak hand.  Eventually, a majority of people in Scotland will know their game, and when that happens, it’s all over.

  13. fairiefromtheearth says:

    Ken500 thats it mate weres the monies open up all the accounts,oh i forgot the creation of monies is done by bankers through loans,thus their is never enough monies to pay back the princable,because if i create all the monies in the world through loans how can you pay the loan and the intreast back?

  14. tigertiger says:

    Slightly off-topic question: in the event of a loss on the independence vote, can anyone envision the UK gov punishing Scotland with loss of power or benefits or anything like that, just to make the point that they shouldn’t try anything like it again?

    Seems the anti-ind chaps have no qualms about fighting dirty, or just outright lying, if it gets them what they want. I’m very curious to see how the Tories will respond next year. Regardless of how the vote goes they’re going to kick up a real stink, no?

  15. Macart says:

    Vote no, get less.
    Catchy, but I don’t think BT will run with it. 🙂

  16. HandandShrimp says:

    Anyone in the No camp that pretends a No vote is going to be anything other than a slasher movie needs their bumps felt. The proposed budget for 15/16 is the worst yet.
    As to Devo Max, anyone else notice how quiet Better Together have gone on more powers? Barely gets a mention these days.  

  17. MajorBloodnok says:

    New BT slogan should be “Stay in the Union for the worst of both worlds.”
    The whole BT and HMG approach really is Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD).  Hence the lies, contradictions and distortions to confuse the public, whilst at the same time using a willing MSM to try to make sure that the positive YES message doesn’t get out there.

  18. Les Wilson says:

    The Welsh First Minister on the first tv interview up here was asked about Barnet, he said that will be addressed anyway. Clearly there is a consensus down south that is gathering pace. So, yes, we will be made poorer still, if we stay with the Union. There is no valid option BUT TO vote YES.

  19. Alastair Naughton says:

    Interesting, the Telegraph says this should all be debated BEFORE the referendum, but nowhere, at any time, ever, will anyone from BT ever commit to one SINGLE post referendum promise in the event of a No vote, and they certainly won’t debate this because they know it would expose their true agenda.

  20. Melissa Murray says:

    Thanks for this. I posted that Telegraph article on my FB today (much of my husband’s family still seem set in the NO camp) Ironically my hubby & I are probably the only one’s in his family that could actually financially survive a NO vote.
    I just don’t get people who vote against their own best interests. I thought this only really happened in the USA. (Tea Partiers)

  21. Seventy one says:

    The worrying thing is that there are so many still prepared to believe BT and that we couldn’t go it alone. I have two fairly intelligent guys on my FB who believe it all and refuse to even read or look at the Yes side. I’ve even had the Nationalist loony card played at me and the “it’s because I’m patriotic and love Scotland that I’m voting No” cards played at me. It’s so frustrating! 
    There is only one option and it’s Yes!

  22. Murray McCallum says:

    If people vote no to Scotland being an independent country, then as a region of greater England / united kingdom they must take the consequences.

    Either use our own skills and resources or accept what someone else bothers to share with us.

  23. Jingly Jangly says:

    Luigi 1.49
    Double the size of that Black hole to 14 billion per annum if we Vote NO, we already have a deficit of 7 billion under the union paying for uk debts, overspend on defence,  for English courts and prison and so on.

  24. tartanfever says:

    The whole unionist camp are absolutely deluded. Maybe it’s about time the media, the OBR and the IFS started looking at Westminster.
    Still borrowing £9bn a month and the total national debt sky rockets toward £1.5 Trillion, or in simple terms, roughly £20k of debt for every man, woman and child in the entire country.
    So just to stop borrowing Westminster will have to cut another £9bn a month from services before it can deal with the national debt, and with no natural resources and much hinging on the finance sector the outlook for the UK is bleak to say the least. Staying in the UK will see an entire generation brought up in utter poverty.

  25. Brian Powell says:

    However this is not being widely reported in the wide circulation Scottish papers, or what it means.

    A local paper set up an Independence page for letters but so far, apart from the first time they announced it, not much. I sent in a mail on what Devolution is and what it is not, but no sign of it in the paper.
    Interesting story, I was at a local Yes campaign meeting, first one I’ve been to, and heard that a student from the college in that town had arranged to do an interview with Gordon Brown, specifically on Independence. At the interview Gordon Brown then refused to answer any questions on Independence!

  26. James Morton says:

    Once again with the dreary old bromide of the English paying for everything. Once again the thinly veiled threat that action will be taken to ensure we never challenge the status quo again.  We just cannot remain a part of such a dysfunctional system any longer.

  27. Papadocx says:

    To the NO VOTERS: 




  28. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    Crivvens, the caps were quite enough without it all being in bold too.

  29. Papadocx says:

    Sorry rev. Bit angry and frustrated. Must be my age.

  30. GP Walrus says:

    If we go independent, “losing” Barnett actually means we keep ALL our income.
    Staying in the UK and losing Barnett will mean “losing” £7Bn, i.e. contributing £7Bn more to rUK. £7Bn down on £48Bn block grant plus Pensions is a reduction of more than £1 in every £7 we currently get back out. 
    Talk about being generous to a fault!

  31. Linda's Back says:

    NO are really upping the anti as they spin furiously prior to the White Paper.
    First we have Carmicael telling us he won’t allow us to use Sterling.
    Then the Tories Darling is at it again
    Peviously the chairman of the Better Together campaign against Scottish independence said that it would be “desirable” and “logical” for an independent Scotland to keep the pound.

    In an interview with Gordon Brewer on January 10th 2013 , on  Newsnight Scotland programme, Alastair Darling said that a currency union between Scotland and the rest of the UK would be the best available option for both parties.

  32. gillie says:

    Tax and spend, tax and spend.
    Vote NO and even less of the revenues generated in Scotland will be spent here. 
    Under the union Scotland a revenue rich country is destined to end up with third world public services.

  33. Davy says:

    Jinks, crivens, help ma boab, ther na gang tae tack ma “Barnett” are thay ???
    If you are daft enough to think that after a NO vote the unionist parties are not going to rip everything they can out of Scotland and try to put us back to the stoneage you certainly need your bumps felt, (with a fucking mallet).
    You must understand that the London controlled parties will not want to risk any chance of Scotland being able to put them in the same position again if they can help it. They will systematically strip every power Scotland has under some pretence or another and will be willingly aided by our own home grown crawlers and back-stabbers.
    Folks, we must always remember our opposition are all LONDON CONTROLLED and they will only do the best for themselves first and foremost. Scotland must get control for Scotland, back in Scotland ONLY.

  34. faolie says:

    Two sides to the story…
    Barnet formula? Switched off already. Oh ok, go on then. So our taxes go into the pot but we end up getting more than the English and the Welsh. Well, no, that doesn’t seem fair. But after we vote no, the pot’s going to be divvied up on the basis of need in the future? Sure, that seems a lot fairer.
    Barnet formula? Switched off already. Oh ok, go on then. So our taxes go into the pot but we end up getting less than we put in, and what’s left pays for Trident and big projects in England. Well, no, that definitely isn’t fair. And when we vote no, the pot’s going to be divvied up so that we get even less of our own money? And how long has this been going on? Really? I’d no idea. Fuckin robbing bastards.

  35. Churm Rincewind says:

    But surely the point is that if Scotland votes to stay in the Union the Barnett formula needs revision? As far as I can work out, everyone agrees on that.

    But that doesn’t mean to say that Scotland will necessarily be disadvantaged.  Who knows what might replace Barnett?  The Calman Commission’s recommendations provide an interesting starting point for discussion.  

  36. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “But that doesn’t mean to say that Scotland will necessarily be disadvantaged.”

    It really, really does.

  37. Ken500 says:

    @ Churm Rincewind 5.9pm

    Good luck with that!

  38. ronnie anderson says:

    If  any body watched Daily Politics yesterday ( barnett formula )  Simond Cockerill  LGA wants money from the barnett for English local authorities, making their case to Westminster gov for the past year, so Scotlands share will be dire

  39. magnus barelegs says:

    Churm Rincewind……..Wishful thinking to put it mildly on your part.

  40. Papadocx says:

    Churm rincewind  5:25
    yes it needs give and take: We give- They take (sounds fair to them)

  41. JLT says:

    It is my belief, that if the people of Scotland, are made to understand what the Barnett Formula is (and believe me, the vast majority of the people …on a huge scale …don’t!), then once explained to them, and of the impending threat to it, then the ‘Yes’ vote will go screaming through the roof.
    Independence …will be for certain, if we do that.

  42. Bunch Paraka says:

    O/T – heard both Alistair Darling and Nicola Sturgeon speak at ICAS conference today.  Usual fear, I mean fare, from Alistair, while Nicola did well (not least as a woman in a male-dominated, Edinburgh establishment environment).  Strangest moment was when Alistair said that the circumstances surrounding the Union in 1707 were as valid today as they were back then.  What could he possibly mean??

  43. ronnie anderson says:

    I woke up yesterday  no shakes no wobblies  thoughts clearer for the past six months ( I think the fluid in my cerebelum has moved releaving the pressure in my brain) any way I remembered about that BT meeting in Cumbernaul last night I asked my son to bring my car over I went up there on my own turns outit wasent a public meeting as I had thought, they we ,re all sitting around a conference table about 30 of them I asked where the public were, a w ee lassy said it was a meeting for people to join the BT camp I told her to send the rite info  , but I would,nt be joining BT if the could nt get  their informating strait.  Any public B T meeting over the Weekend / next week near me Glas / livy I min Airdrie post up gays gals am champin at the bit noo 

  44. Ian Grant says:

    I think Yes must now be much more robust in getting our message across. IFS should have been much more aggressively taken apart, and the threatened withdrawal of Barnett formula much more strongly got across. Canvassing over the last 6 months, I am convinced that when BT and MSM get more aggressive and negative, the voters get more cautious about independence. Last week has been bad for negative stories. Somehow we have to get in first and set the agenda, putting them on the back foot. We have not managed that yet in 18 months. We have got to do it soon.

  45. chris says:

    I agree that if there is a no vote the Barnett Formula will be scrapped. This is not necessarily a bad thing!
    The rank and file Conservatives want it scrapped because the believe the subsidy myth whilst supporters of Scottish independence want it abolished because they know that Scotland subsidises the rest of the UK. I can see a compromise being put in place following a no vote; the UK government will retain control of NI, VAT and customs duties to fund state pensions, employment benefit, paternity benefit, foreign affairs and defence whilst the Scottish Government will be free to devise its own tax system (inc oil revenue) to fund the present responsibilities plus welfare. I also believe that following a no vote welfare provision will be devolved to Scotland as there will be a drive to rationalise the devolution settlement and currently welfare is devolved to NI. (It should be remembered that it is only the the UK policy of funding parity that means that welfare is run on the same lines as the rest of the UK in NI- without Barnett welfare would diverge in the four nations.)

    Such Fiscal autonomy will enable future independence leaning Scottish Governments to show exactly the real “balance sheet”, and as Scotland will already be in charge of its own taxation support, for independence will rise. The mythical black hole will not be found! Why, you may ask,  would a UK government give Scotland Fiscal Autonomy? The answer I believe is quite simple; to do otherwise, whilst removing Barnett, would be the quickest way to end the Union after a no vote.

  46. wee folding bike says:

    ronnie anderson,
    BT Airdrie are planning to hand out newspapers at the station on Tuesday from 0700 hrs. I usually head out on my bike around 0730 so if I get my ducks  in a row and leave a wee bit earlier I might have time to swing by the station for a keek at them. It’s a half mile the wrong way but probably do-able. They’re not allowed inside the station so I guess they will be under the railway bridge or across from where Aldi used to be before it moved up the road.

  47. Alastair wright says:

    I’ve just worked out what I want for Christmas – a ‘fearbomb’ disposal app for my phone with all these rebuttle facts on them! Any time one of the ‘Proud Scot brigade’ start denigrating I’ll be able to present  the reality, even send them the info there and then.

  48. Thepnr says:

    If you haven’t clicked the link and read the whole article here are two quotes that take the biscuit.
    “True, Scotland contributes more per head in taxes because of North Sea oil and gas revenues; but these have dropped off and are projected to continue falling.”
    But the best and most ridiculous is this.
    “This newspaper is a strong supporter of the Union – but we also believe that the independence debate should be conducted as honestly as possible.”


  49. Andy-B says:

    @Churm Rincewind.
    Can’t work out whether, you’re an eternal optimist, or just plain naive, a no vote WILL be very bad for Scots.

  50. muttley79 says:

    @Churm Rincewind
    But surely the point is that if Scotland votes to stay in the Union the Barnett formula needs revision? As far as I can work out, everyone agrees on that.
    But that doesn’t mean to say that Scotland will necessarily be disadvantaged.  Who knows what might replace Barnett?  The Calman Commission’s recommendations provide an interesting starting point for discussion
    If Scotland votes No there will be no better deal on the table.  Instead, Westminster will rightly take it as a declaration of support for the Union.  They will then scrap the Barnett Formula, and put Scotland on the ultimate ‘austerity’ programmme.  The Welsh FM summed it up this week.  The British establishment think we get a good deal at the moment.  Put it this way, if you are employed in the public sector in Scotland, and we vote No then be afraid, be very afraid. 

  51. muttley79 says:

    I agree that if there is a no vote the Barnett Formula will be scrapped. This is not necessarily a bad thing!
    Yes, it would be!!  The Barnett formula would be scrapped in the event of a No vote because the British state think we get a good deal from it.  Are you seriously arguing that if we vote No, we are going to get a better offer from Westminster, or more powers?  If we vote No then the British establishment will want to inflict punishment on us for holding a referendum on independence in the first place.  We will have left ourselves as politically exposed as you could possibly get if we vote No.
    Chris, there is absolutely no chance of Scotland getting Welfare powers or Fiscal Autonomy in the event of a No vote.  You say there will be a compromise?  Westminster will have no need to compromise.  They will not give more power to Scotland, or break up Whitehall departments.  As for Scotland getting access to North Sea Oil short of independence: it simply is not going to happen!  Why would it happen under the Union?  Why would Westminster purposely choose to receive less revenue from North Sea Oil, at a time of acute economic turbluence and an era of austerity?  In short, if you want Scotland to have Welfare powers and Fiscal Autonomy vote Yes.  If you want to see Scotland get hammered by the British state vote No (because that is on the cards).

  52. Jingly Jangly says:

    Chris suggest you join the real world, they had the chance to offer devo max and would not allow it on the ballet paper. There is no chance of any further devolution, all the talk coming out of Labour are that they are going to bypass Holyrood and give funds directly to local councils, this means that at best Holyrood will wither on the vine, if its not abolished sooner. Labour are also talking about equalizing the NHS across the UK which for Scotland means privatising like England.

    Meanwhile the Tories have not said a peep so you can work out what there intentions are.

    Only way for Scotland to prosper is with a YES Vote.

    Ronnie Great to hear your feeling better.

  53. chris, you seem to have a high regard for the integrity of the Establishment!

  54. Sandy Milne says:

    A NO vote next year is the worst possible scenario not only for Scotland but the rest of the UK as well.
    It will send out a message to the markets, who have no respect for countries and borders btw, that the economy of these islands is completely and utterly incapable of reform and in a complete state of denial of our respective debts and liabilities. It will mean an end to any prospect of growth and the markets will respond to that message.
    Expect to see a run on the pound that will see it devalued to unprecedented levels and rampant inflation will kick in as the markets force these measures on the economy to devalue the UK debt burden.
    Now all this could be true or it could be a reversal of Project Fear. Just bear in mind history tells us that this is more credible than anything than has been spewed forward by the BT mob and the NO camp that’s for sure. 

  55. Alastair wright says:

    reading this while listening to Led Zeps ‘the song remains the same’ – seems apt for all BT fearbombs – I think it’s time WE moved the independence debate on to what really matters – a sociable society

  56. Paula Rose says:

    The Barnett formula – is that good for a bad hair day?
    oops just been handed my coat!

  57. muttley79 says:

    The choice next year for Scotland and the voters is clear:
    Vote No:  The Barnett Formula will be scapped.  The British state think we get to good a deal at the moment.  This was confirmed by the Welsh FM this week.  The scrapping of the Barnett Formula will mean our block grant will be substantially reduced.  This means the NHS here would have to be privatised (see Andy Burnham’s comment on wanting health care to be the same across the UK).  Tuition fees will be introduced, with costs of between £6000 and £9,000 a year.  Free subscritions will have to go.  Weapons of Mass Destruction will still be less than 30 miles from our largest city.
    Vote Yes:  Scotland will receive around 90% of North Sea Oil and gas.  We will have the full powers of independence, including Fiscal and Welfare powers.  There will be challenges of course, and change will take time, especially because of the global economic situation, and the period required to set up new institutions.  However, we will have given ourselves the powers to affect the economic and social performance of our nation, which we lack at the moment.   

  58. Smudger says:

    Just watched FMQ’s why does Lamont keep standing up and opening her mouth just to get her arse handed back to her on a plate.
    the gift that just keeps on giving

  59. Early Ball says:

    It does not matter she gets gubbed every week. The sound bite that she reads out is all the Red Tories are interested in. It gets repeated on the BBC. Come on give the “debater of the year” some respect.

  60. Chris says:

    I thought my comment might raise a few replies!

    I hope and think there will be a yes vote next year. I think opinion is changing especially in the conversations I have been having.

    However getting back to events if there is a no vote. The Barnett Formula is not logical and fair-if you have a centralised state distribution of funds should be by need- not 10% of English spending! However, we are no longer in a centralised state following devolution and, as most people have been saying (on this website), the requirements in Scotland are very different from England. Removal of Barnett will require fiscal autonomy otherwise a swift breakup of the UK will ensue for the reasons identified in the replies to my comment. Any solution needs to respect devolution. I think wiser heads than the typical unionist know this. The UK government will hand over the oil revenue for getting rid of the Barnet Formula as it only accounts for 1-2% of total UK revenue- as they have been saving to us for the last year.

    The independence referendum is the vehicle in which we must push for greater powers for Scotland. Hopefully full independence but we must not let them get off the hook about what a no vote means. If it will be as bad as some of you think we need to drive hard on that point. But if the accede to greater powers it is a win-draw situation rather than a win-lose!

  61. muttley79 says:

    I do not see where you are coming from in regards to a No vote.  Scotland is not going to get possession of North Sea oil revenue in the Union.  Devolution has reached its limits.  Your faith in the British state is unwise given the history of devolution.  Why would Westminster enable Scotland to have access to North Sea oil, when there is austerity and massive spending cuts in the rest of the UK?  More to the point, a No vote means Scotland has literally no leverage left on the British state.  As Iain McWhirter has said No means No!  The British government will not hand us over North Sea oil revenue in exhange for the scrapping of the Barnett Formula.  They will scrap the Barnett Formula and severely reduce the block grant.  Only a Yes vote means we will get more powers.    

  62. Franariod says:

    @ Churm & Chris
    We will end up paying more tax to stay in union and to compensate the revised financial settlement from London. Not good news or will it be fair. Everything the No campaign has been saying all week about tax rises and cuts in an independent Scotland will happen with the status quo, just that they wont admit to it.   

  63. ronnie anderson says:

    Thanks Weefolding Bike, I  ll see  if I can get some Snp papers  from the Yes group Airdrie or leaflets & go down there

  64. Mary Bruce says:

    Just found this delightful piece by a scary UKIPper and what they would have in store for us in the event of a no vote. God help us if they ever achieve any real power. (apologies if this has been posted on here previously, I’m still a newbie to this site):

  65. ronnie anderson says:

    Jingly  janglie, many thanks pal ,a couple of days now I hope I can keep going untill I get operated on but meanwhile Im  going to play catch up, leafleting paper delivery Bastered  T public meetings between Emburh Glas Hamiton  Denny I ll go anywhere to fuk them up just feed me info as to time place & anybody needs picking up more the merrier jist let me know thanks lads / lasses. Hi Ho Hi Ho its of work I go

  66. Capn Andy. says:

    ‘Moving to a Needs Based System’.
    Aye. Their needs, our money.

  67. Chris says:

    If we do not get control of oil in a revised settlement under a no vote will will pay more if we want to keep the spending as it is in Scotland at present. That would be a driver towards a further referendum and a yes vote. I think once the illusion of of the benefit of the union is removed Scotland would opt for independence a second time, if not the first time- the genie will be well and truly out of the bottle.  The only hope the unionists have of keeping the union together if there is a no vote in 2014 is to give Scotland full fiscal autonomy including oil revenues. The unionists will not like it but if they do anything else that independence is inevitable. BT have private polling, they know what the people of Scotland want (and expect) and it is not the status quo. Politicians want to get elected and will change their policies to suit the will of the people.

  68. X_Sticks says:

    “I think once the illusion of of the benefit of the union is removed”
    I kinda think we’re there already, just some people haven’t recognised it…yet.

  69. JRH says:

    There is no chance of a no vote bringing any additional powers for Scotland. The Barnett formula will be removed, the NHS will be taken into central (London) control and Education given direct to councils. Holyrood powers will be severely reduced whilst they will be given responsibility for raising more of there own income through taxation.

    Future Scottish Goverments will be left with no choice other than to reduce services or raise taxation above UK levels. Neither option will lead to a fairer or more prosperous Scotland.

    Thoughts of a second referendum can be forgoten as the London Goverment will use the no vote as an excuse to refuse to accept the Scottish Goverments right to call for a second vote. They will simply refuse to allow it and will use the full powers of the state to ensure it does not happen.

    Sept 2014 is our one and only chance to take control of our country and we all need to get out there and get the message accross to the no’s and don’t knows.

    It’s now or never.

  70. Ken500 says:

    The Barnett Formula is just a red herring.

    Any divisions/allocation based on equality should be based on what’s being spent (£720Billion) not what’s being raised. (£560Billion)

    It’s a Total CON trick and alway has been.

    Austerity for Scotland while the rest of the UK can borrow and spend what it likes, using Scottish assets. The Scottish gov should be going to the Court of Human Rights. No wonder they don’t want Scotland in Europe and want to abolish membership.

    Anyone who doesn’t vote YES must be off their head.

  71. john king says:

    Mary Bruce says
    ” I’m still a newbie to this site”
    Newbie or not,
     exposing this sort of nonsense Mary propels you into the serious poster status immediately, as hard as rubbish like that is to read MORE PLEASE 
    oh and welcome 
    ps since 29aug that idiot has managed 182 likes,
    you (if likes were an option) would have acquired that in an hour on this site! 

  72. john king says:

    Ronnie Anderson says
    ” Any public B T meeting over the Weekend / next week near me Glas / livy I min Airdrie post up gays gals am champin at the bit noo ”
    You take it easy Ronnie, you should volunteer to do back room work for the yes campaign instead of going out in the cold nights to stand up for the yes campaign, 
    its people like you Ronnie that put those better together (non campaigners) to shame 

  73. sneddon says:

    Mary Bruce – thanks for the link and welcome to Wings.  I forgot about that guy.  His site gave me a good laugh this morning. The absolute bonkers stuff he produces  is seen for what it is by the majority of people but the overall effect it has to me, is of a room full of zoomers all shouting the same thing at each other in a room.  No dissent allowed so you can’t even engage with them.  But ask yourself what national party has always lost their deposit in scottish elections? easy UKIP.  But you’re right if these people got power in UK parliament they may be in a position to get thro’ their extreme ideas.

  74. Ken500 says:

    The 1707 Union Agreement gave Scotland the right for a separate Legal and Education system for ever. Lord Cooper judgement in 1953 upheld that ‘right’. To try and abolish that ‘right’ would abolish the Union. That is why Scotland legally, had a right for a ‘Referendum’.

  75. X_Sticks says:

    Mary, my apologies, I reposted your link over to the current (Northumberland Times) thread, but I couldn’t remember where I got the link from last night (too many pages open and losing track!):
    “Can’t remember who posted about the UKIP aforceforgood site:” 
    but it’s a scary read. The thought of a tory-ukip alliance in Westminster is truly chilling.
    Thanks for the link and welcome to Wings!
    I have used to snapshot the site – it means others don’t have to generate any traffic on a UKIP site but can see the page. I think there are instructions on how to use on Rev Stu’s quarantine page, but it is easy to use. Just copy the URL of the site you want and then paste it into and it will generate a new URL that shows a picture of the page. Others can then see the page without actually having to visit a UKIP (or any other) site that we don’t want to support by visiting.

  76. Kipper says:

    This is one of the most important things that far too many have not realised. No matter the outcome of the vote, things will still change for better or worse. People need to know that they cannot and are not voting for the status quo if they vote “No”.

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