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Off The Buses

Posted on August 22, 2018 by

So Jeremy Corbyn’s four-day crusade to win back Scotland is going swimmingly. In the rare moments when his MSPs and Lords aren’t undermining him by attacking him over Brexit and anti-Semitism or making embarrassing gaffes about arms companies, he’s giving speeches like this one yesterday at bus-maker Alexander Dennis:

Presumably by promoting and supporting Britain’s manufacturing industry he means companies just like Dennis, and presumably supporting them would include, say, giving them grants to help develop new low-carbon technologies.

Which is a bit odd, because it’s not even two years since the Scottish Government did exactly that, and got sourly pilloried by the Scottish media and opposition – including Scottish Labour, who said there were “serious questions to be asked” about the award – for it being a “ridiculous” “cronyism” “outrage”.

In September 2016 a storm of protest was whipped up over a £7m grant to Dennis on the grounds that it was (indirectly) part-owned by Brian Souter, who’d been an SNP donor in the past.

But by that time Souter hadn’t donated any money to the SNP in years, and as far as anyone knows his most recent political contribution was to the Lib Dems, who were one of the parties whining about “cronyism” in the Daily Mail piece – even though by that point Souter was THEIR crony, not the SNP’s.

Of course, we all know that in Scotland any money that comes from the SNP is bad, so presumably Corbyn will be demanding that Alexander Dennis hands the £7m back, so that Labour can give it to them again, having first made it magically clean. We’ll keep you posted on that just as soon as they get back into power.

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    1. 22 08 18 10:56

      Off The Buses | speymouth

    222 to “Off The Buses”

    1. Ken500 says:

      Labour shambles.

      Corbyn what a joke

    2. Ken500 says:

      Three day weeks. Candles. Rubbish in the streets. The dead not being buried. Labour winter of discontent.

      Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. The McCrone Report kept hidden for years. Iraq, Dunblane and Lockerbie kept secret for 100 years.

    3. Macart says:

      This really very simple.

      If the SNP propose ANYTHING, anything at all. It’s bad and is to be opposed, because badgers, tsunamis, frog storms and squirrels. (Unless of course Labour rehash the concept sometime later when no one is looking and then it’s a good thing.)

      Mr Corbyn really doesn’t get out much, does he?

    4. ScottieDog says:

      It’s just the lack of awareness about events and mood up here I find hilarious – esp for a guy who has been in politics for such a long long time. There’s no excuse for that lack of knowledge and so instead he has to rely on the numpties in SLAB (most of whom can’t stand him) for his brief. Of course that is always going to end in tears!

    5. Capella says:

      Heard him mention BiFab in there. He should have stopped listening to Neil Findlay and Co long ago. We have.

      From previous thread via Nana – brilliant list of economic basket case UK policies which the last Labour Government did nothing about when they had the chance.

      https://twitter.com/tfoale/status/1025630498431926272

    6. Sharny Dubs says:

      One wonders how any one time Labour supporter can still support such screaming hypocrisy.
      During the dying days of the 2014 ref many good hard working Labour colleagues were hanging their heads in shame back then.

    7. Helpmaboab says:

      Och.”We’ll boost industry” is just one of the many hollow promises that Westminster politicians make intermittently.

      It sounds great but, once in power, nothing is done. That’s because industry requires a skilled workforce, first-rate public infrastructure and, alas, lots of hard work. It’s so much easier to make a living through financial speculation and the sale of public assets: The British Way.

      Scotland could do things differently…

    8. Ian McCubbin says:

      This guy is a spiv as bad as May. He in my opinion only represents himself.
      So glad you attack his hypocrisy.
      I am and will also continue to attack his disingenuous campaigning.
      I am still waiting on an answer to my question which said I commend his support for many countries which seek and gain independence and asked him why he does not offer the same support to Scotland.

    9. G H Graham says:

      Incredulous as it may seem to wishful thinkers, Corbyn will never be the next Prime Minister of the UK.

      When he should stroll into office, in poll after poll, he simply cannot supersede the worst British Government in living memory.

      He’s simply rubbish because he …

      lacks courage of conviction
      waffles
      contradicts himself & his parties policies
      is at odds with his own party members
      dresses like a tramp
      wears stupid hats

      People won’t vote for a PM who does not express the basic tenets of leadership; courage, conviction, strong will all wrapped up in a decent suit.

    10. Ian McCubbin says:

      This guy, Corbyn is a charlatan and only represents himself.
      I am glad to see you calling him out on his hypocrisy Stu.

      I am actively calling him out on twitter .
      recently asked him why he does not support Scottish Independence given he celebrates the achievement of independence of many states around the world.
      I have not had a reply sad to say. However I did not expect one from such a hypocrite.

    11. mr thms says:

      O/T

      Re Scotland’s finances as part of the UK.

      GERS just published

      https://www.gov.scot/Publications/2018/08/3419

      “Net Fiscal Balance 2017-18

      This is the difference between total revenue and total public sector expenditure including capital investment. The net fiscal balance:

      Excluding North Sea revenue, was a deficit of £14.8 billion (9.5% of GDP).

      Including an illustrative geographic share of North Sea revenue, was a deficit of £13.4 billion (7.9% of GDP).”

    12. Ian McCubbin says:

      This guy Corbyn is such a hypocrite and hopefully the more calling him out like you Stu more will see he is no friend of Scotland

    13. Doug Bryce says:

      re : GERS

      Looks like we are about to be love-bombed with the annual GERs figures telling us we cant afford independence.

      A few things to remember

      – GERs only consider 60% of UK spending
      – Scotland gets billed for things, such as civil service in London, for which we get no direct economic return. The wages (and taxes) are paid outside of Scotland. This breaks basic rules of accounting.
      – No account is made of previous years where oil and gas meant Scotlands deficit was less than UKs.
      – UK government themselves admit GERs can only consider Scotlands fiscal position within the UK.

      These figures need to be appreciated for what they are rather than used as the hypothetical balance sheet for independent Scotland.

    14. Marcia says:

      Corbyn makes the late Geoffrey Howe a dynamic personality, very underwhelming indeed.

      mr thms

      The GERS cooked up figures annual outing. It is time for a forensic accountant to examine what is being debited to Scotland from the UK. How can Scotland run up a large deficit without knowing what exactly is being charged to the Scotland account by the UK Government?

    15. gus1940 says:

      Further to Liam Fox’s ludicrous Exporting Superpower speech I read that Exports form 35% of the UK’s GDP.

      Can anybody provide a breakdown into categories of UK Exports so that we can isolate exports originating in Scotland and those from soon to depart companies such as Nissan, Toyota, Honda, Mini, Rolls Royce, Bentley, Vauxhall, Ford and Airbus.

      These could then be subtracted from the current UK export figure to reflect what the BOP Deficit would be once Scotland wins Independence and The UK leaves The EU.

      Of course we must also allow for the fact that Oil & Gas from Scottish waters (not forgetting the taxes currently raised from them) would then become RumpUk Imports.

      The resultant BOP Deficit figure would suggest that it cannot be long till Liam Fox receives a visit from the Men in White Coats and their funny jacket with long sleeves which tie round the back.

    16. Breeks says:


      Ian McCubbin says:
      22 August, 2018 at 9:56 am

      This guy Corbyn is such a hypocrite and hopefully the more calling him out like you Stu more will see he is no friend of Scotland…

      Hit the nail on the head there Ian, and it saddens me to say it, but SNP excluded, Scotland has no friends in Westminster.

      Jeremy Corbyn could fail the Political Turing Test… After a time communicating with Corbyn, the evaluator couldn’t be sure if he was speaking to a politician or not.

    17. jfngw says:

      His role is not to gain power, if it was he would be trying to take seats from the Tories. The role of Labour and the Conservatives in Scotland is to keep the SNP out, that is why they so happily work together here.

      The Westminster merry-go-round is to keep these two parties where they are, the challenge for power is in England, the only narrative here is keep the Scots in check.

    18. jfngw says:

      Forgot it was GERS day, where will they go once they have managed to allocate more spending to Scotland than the total Scottish budget.

      What you can depend on is this number will be bigger every year until the SNP have been removed from power in Scotland, then it will become a minor news item no matter what the figure is, probably relegated to eighth or ninth item on Rep Scot and a 20 sec slot.

    19. boris says:

      British establishment celebrates arms industry at London bash

      MARGARET Curran, Labour’s shadow secretary of state for Scotland and MP for the Glasgow East constituency, accepted the invitation from arms company Raytheon, which provided laser-guidance systems for the bombing of Palestine last August, in which 1903 Palestinians were killed, including 450 children. campaigners and politicians criticized Curran for accepting the Raytheon offer.

      The Campaign Against the Arms Trade said:

      “Raytheon is a company that we know has been connected to the destruction of Gaza last summer. It’s a war that people in Scotland and across the UK found abhorrent. Margaret Curran should definitely not be accepting a £246 dinner at their expense. These companies do not host MPs because they are nice. They do it so that can sell as many weapons as they can.”

      The Scottish Palestine Solidarity Campaign, added:

      “Labour’s colleague Ann McKechin MP sits on the arms export control committee and has fobbed off many requests for a full arms embargo for Israel. In this case, Margaret Curran should have stood up publicly and repudiated any link to Raytheon who were linked to the dropping of 500lb bombs on Gaza last summer.”

      Also present at the dinner were Scottish Labour MP, Gemma Doyle, the shadow defence minister, who sat with BAE Systems:

      Brian Donohoe MP for Ayrshire, a guest of Airbus Group:

      Michael Moore, Liberal Democrat, MP, for Berwickshire who was a guest of drone manufacturer Selex ES.

      The dinner, included the UK’s biggest arms companies across 84 tables at the London Hilton.

      Guests, including 40 members of parliament and Lib/Dem minister, Vince Cable, enjoyed tomato and basil tart followed by beef fillet and chocolate and praline spheres for desert. (Michael Gray, Common Space)

      All this obscene largess whilst women and children were being murdered by the weapons supplied to Israel and Saudi Arabia very companies forking out large amounts of financial support to the representatives of the political parties in attendance at the freebie. Shame on Labour and the Lib/Dems.

    20. Dr Jim says:

      He fooled some youngsters at first with the Obi Wan Knobi act because they have no memory of what Labour is but they seem to have caught up now and don’t look likely to repeat their recent mistake, and in Scotland all Labour have left are just anti Independence hangers on who are not really FOR Labour they’re just against the SNP and can’t bring themselves to be Tories and are too scared to vote for a country of their own

      As to Corbyns beliefs they seem no different to those of Theresa May and as far as Scotland’s concerened I’m surprised he doesn’t get a nosebleed being this far up north Britain beyond the wall having to mingle with us Wildlings

      Kezia Dugdale did well (although she didn’t mean to) when she exposed what Jeremy Corbyn is and this weeks current leader out of his very own big uneducated lying mouth confirms it daily

      Come on over to the SNP Labour supporters we’re the good guys, and I know it’s hard to hear but it really is you that’s the baddies now

    21. Davosa says:

      Corbyn is a complete numpty – viz.his inter view (1 question only allowed and he coldly even answers it) on Ch 4 news last night. What a tool !

    22. Doug_Bryce says:

      > allocate more spending to Scotland than the total Scottish budget.

      Exactly.

      Scottish spending is set by Barnett formula (as a fixed % of spending in England).

      In addition Holyrood only has limited control of the taxes it raises. Basically small tweaks to income tax / stamp duty which allow it play around the edges.

      Using GERs as political tool is like tieing someone to chair, punching them repeatedly in the face, then ask what they are going to do about….

    23. TD says:

      The trouble with Corbyn is that he is fixated by the old Labour arguments about capitalism versus socialism, wages versus profits, taxation versus personal consumption, monetarism versus Keynesianism etc. When he first got elected to parliament in 1983, these were the issues that dominated political discourse. Thatcher had just been re-elected and was embarking on phase 2 of her “restructuring” of the economy (financing it with Scottish oil money – but that’s another matter).

      These are all valid matters to have a view on, but they are not the big issues of today. There are two elephants in the room – Scottish independence and Brexit. When did we last hear Corbyn say anything meaningful about either of these two major topics of the day? What does a “jobs first” Brexit actually mean?

      Corbyn wants to stay in his comfort zone, fighting the fight that he is used to. Brexit and Scottish independence are mere irritations to him, getting in the way of his campaign to create a socialist UK. As a candidate for the office of prime minister, he is completely hopeless – as prime minister you have to deal with the issues that arise, not just those that are on your agenda.

      Given the incompetence and division within the current UK government, the opposition should be 20 to 30 points ahead in the opinion polls. Actually, it’s pretty well level pegging between Labour and the Tories with the Tories perhaps just ahead.

      I just hope that Scottish voters will increasingly see what most of us here see – that the UK is knackered and is a sinking ship crewed at present by some fairly unsavoury characters. Thank goodness we have the Scottish lifeboat – if we can just cut the ropes attaching us to the doomed vessel.

    24. galamcennalath says:

      If there is an early general election, Labour should walk it, but with their own very serious problems, they probably won’t!

      For there to be an election, Labour plus some Tories need to unite to make it happen. At the moment I don’t see that unfolding.

      Corbyn and Labour could win, if they tried! If they adopted a commitment to a Norway style solution then, IMO, they could win in the face of the hard right Tories trying to push a hard Brexit. FPTP makes it much easier to win because no winner has needed 50% in living memory.

      However, hard right Tories pushing a hard Brexit would probably win against an indecisive Labour with no clear plan.

    25. fillofficer says:

      Dr Jim

      r u stu’s da

      nail on head

      every time

      keep it up 😉

    26. Andy-B says:

      It’s disgusting the way the press in Scotland are willing to push any old bollocks that portrays the SNP in a bad light.

    27. donnywho says:

      I think that the latest Weeze re OIL and Gas is to simply not tax them. Then the profits from extraction are relocated onto the companies balance sheet, where it is taxed.

      This is preferable to taxing at source or extraction point as it conveniently transfers the place where taxation is levied.

      So in short the tax is levied at the “National” HQ, which fortuitously is, in most cases London, better still the Scottish contribution conveniently gets lost in the mix.

      It is the only way you can reasonably compare the Norwegian tax take from oil to the UK version as the disparity is so huge!

      To put this in perspective 2016/7 Scotland produced 74.7 Million tons of oil/gas that is equivalent to 7.147 barrels per ton…. So 74.7tons x 7.147 Barrels per ton = 521.73 Million Barrels.

      Now Today’s price is $73 per barrel Brent crude but this year it has a high of $80 and a low of $50 so lets assume an average of $65 per barrel.

      Back to the math Extraction costs are reputedly $12 a barrel so Profit is $53 a barrel.

      Now multiply the production by the retained profit…521.73 Barrels x $53 per barrel profit comes out at $27,651 million profit.

      £1,400 of that was allocated to GERS as tax take. Note that the tax take on Profits resulting from oil extraction in the North sea is 30% as opposed to the more general 19%.

      So if you take the profit from the extraction in the North Sea as corporate profit and therefor paid in London the take is 30% of the $27,651 million profit $8,295 Million.

      Or £6430 million pounds vanished from our Balance sheet and conveniently added to theirs.

      One wonders where else this trick is used?

      I would suppose where possible!

    28. Phil says:

      Seems ironic that Corbyn is in pontificating at the staff of Alexander Dennis – who could have had a contract to locally build a load of Zero emmission Hydrogen / Electric buses to improve transport Edinburgh rather than the horrendously overpriced, underwhelming and disruptive tram system by… you guessed it, Labour.

    29. Greannach says:

      You have to marvel at the skill of the Labour Party in managing almost always to score own goals. It’s even more surprising when you remember that not all that long ago this crowd had Scotland in their death grip. To go from that level of control to being an annoying but amusing irrelevance is remarkable. Keep it up!

    30. Doug_Bryce says:

      @donnywho

      Good post that highlights another obvious flaw in GERs.
      The low oil tax is an extension of this weeze…

      We need to be shouting from roof tops about this.
      If Scotlands tax revenue from oil is more lower than Norway for identical barrels then where is the money going ?

      Another GERs scam is that we get taxed fixed 8.4% pop share of debt despite our deficit being historically lower over last 30 years due to oil.

      http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017/08/25/gers-is-this-why-it-always-says-the-scottish-deficit-is-so-large/

    31. Gillian yesterday scored own goal own goal own goal! She couldn’t stop. Fell down exhausted.

    32. Valerie says:

      TD at 11.03

      Exactly. Corbyn is a tragic version of Benn, another rabid anti EU voter, Corbyn has voted against anything EU since he was elected.

      If it’s got some notion of “market” in the concept, then he’s agin it.

      The Corbyn cultists out in force since last night’s shocking performance on Channel 4. Corbyn’s media advisor told the channel, you have one question only, so the interviewer asked the same EU question, 6 times, and no answer.

      It’s truly astounding stuff. There is NO way to defend the man, but they are out there anyway, digging away.

    33. Derek Henry says:

      GERS day….

      Scottish fiscal gap narrows to 8% of GDP.

      Narrative = framing, language and propaganda.

      What if the fiscal deficit fell from 2 per cent of GDP to 1 per cent of GDP as government austerity impacted poorly on economic growth and unemployment rose from 5 per cent to 6 per cent?

      Would we consider that an improvement that made any sense?

      What if the fiscal deficit was 1 per cent of GDP and rose to 2 per cent of GDP as new large-scale public works programs stimulated employment and unemployment fell from 6 per cent to 5 per cent?

      Would we consider that a deterioration that made any sense?

      Nicola thinks she’s running something other than a glorified county council. The difference is that the bank account the Scottish government uses will bounce cheques when they reach their overdraft limit. Payment authorisation would be refused without HM Treasury permission. Just like any other local county council area in the UK.

      The UK does the tax collection across the UK. Scotland is nothing more than a glorified county council. If you did the accounts for North Yorks County Council you would find it too has a ‘deficit’ that is filled by the block grant and whatever ‘borrowing’ HM Treasury permits.

      Here’s the gory details:

      So the leakage out of the arbitrary line of the Scottish border within the Sterling currency zone is to anywhere else in the world (including the rest of the UK) – and the rest of the UK saves a lot of Sterling. That leakage, plus any net savings within Scotland, is what causes the Scottish government sector deficit.

      Ultimately in the same way that Greece needs to tax German savers, Scotland needs to tax UK savers. To have the power to do that you need UK savers saving in Scotland’s currency which the Scottish government can control and if need be tax. Otherwise Scotland will run out of money as it all drains to the rest of the UK.

      Foreigners save your currency if they want to sell you more things than they want to buy from you. The floating rate would make sure that export+foreign savings = imports in terms of the Scottish currency.

      You can tax it because it is the Scottish currency, and therefore to transfer it to anywhere where it is anything other than inert it would have to go through banks that are licensed by the Scottish authorities to deal in that currency. They will do as they are told if they want to retain their licence.

      Oil is a hug red herring. An enormous canard. It becomes important because although all the dealings are essentially in US dollars and most of the balance sheet is in US dollars, when it is reported in the national accounts it is declared in the reporting currency – which is the Scottish currency. So it’s an accounting trick mostly to make the figures look ‘good’ superficially. The actual Scottish effect is just the fraction of the oil income that has to be physically exchanged for the Scottish currency – to pay staff, suppliers and of course the licence fee and other taxation for the resource.

      Spending only comes back if you have your own currency. If you use somebody else’s then it leaks into a different banking system. Greece spending ends up under the control of the Bundesbank. Similarly Scottish spending ends up under the control of the Bank of England, which is owned and directed by the UK government. As long as that arrangement stays in place, Scotland is owned and directed by the UK government – like any other county council.

      That is the key issue with fixed exchange rates. You end up with control of the money under some other entity which you have to follow the directions of.

      If Scotland became independent then what happens depends upon whether it floats its own currency or not. That is the only way to ensure that Scottish money doesn’t leak anywhere. What the size of the government deficit is will still depend upon how many people want to net save in that currency.

      Mercantalism works because what you are doing is stealing demand from other parts of the world instead of creating your own. And that’s only because creating demand within your own country makes the numbers look bad on the national balance sheet in Mercantilist terms.

      If Scotland sells its oil for US dollars, it can stick those US dollars on the ‘asset’ side of the national balance sheet (in a sovereign wealth fund or whatever). Then the central bank can issue its own money against it by ‘discounting’ the asset.

      All the bankers are happy because you have ‘hard currency’ on the balance sheet and the numbers look good. There is no material difference between that and the central bank just discounting the ‘other assets’ as it pops into being as required and creating money out of nothing.

      You put the same amount of your own money into circulation, but this time you have spare capacity because you are not using your productive mechanisms to chase surplus ‘hard currency’ from abroad.

      Your export sector is materially smaller and you have space to produce more for the domestic market in a non-inflationary manner. The result is a materially higher standard of living and one that is sustainable as well.

      But nobody has done that yet because bankers get spooked discounting ‘Other Assets’ rather than ‘Hard Assets’. The first country to break the taboo will become astonishingly wealthy practically overnight and everybody else will be falling over themselves to emulate them.

      When independent you tax the oil where it hits land.

    34. John Dickson says:

      Are Labour ever getting back into power anywhere, especially Scotland? I doubt it.

    35. donnywho says:

      Doug… obvious, OBVIOUS; I sweated blood for that LOL.

      More to the point so did HMRC.

    36. ScottishPsyche says:

      I gave Jeremy Corbyn the benefit of the doubt when he was elected but he has shown himself to be wilfully ignorant of both Labour in Scotland and the differing legal and education systems and even the fact that the SNHS is different. This has to be malicious as no one is that stupid, are they? OK, all the Scottish Tories and Neil Findlay and James Kelly.

      GERS day, yaay! The day we get told how lucky we are and it could never be any better because what is ours is theirs to give as a gift when and how it suits them. Also what is ours is theirs to spend as they see fit on our behalf.

      And finally, what really is ours will never actually be known under the present system.

    37. Robert Louis says:

      What a sad pathetic joke Jeremy Corbyn and Labour have become.

      Asked (repeatedly) if the UK would be better off out of the EU, he simply waffled. If brexit was such a good idea, his answer would have been..’ of course, and here’s why….’. The fact that his response to that specific question was not a straightforward clear YES, should tell everybody just how bad brexit will be.

      I must say, I’d like to see ALL political leaders asked that same question. Only one, NS, will say a straightforward NO, in reply. All the rest will waffle, as they know it is nuts, but have no backbone to stand up for what in the olden days was called ‘common sense’.

      So now we know, Labour are pursuing brexit together with the Tories, a policy they KNOW will damage the UK, and make people poorer. How utterly absurd. Utterly, utterly absurd.

    38. Corbyn must know that the ordinary people of Scotland are the best looked after in the UK and it is all thanks to the SNP who have only recently come into power compared to labour who were in power almost forever in Scotland the BBC also must know it but try to vilifie the SNP instead of congratulating them it is all sour grapes Corbynshould be asked when labour will give the rest of the U.K. The same standard of living the SNP have given to Scotland and why by opposing Scottish independence he is stopping the ordinary people of Scotland,having an even higher standard of living after all they call theirselves the people’s party but it seems it is only certain people

    39. mountain shadow says:

      Norway’s oil revenue in 2017 was approximately GBP6 BILLION, according to GERS Scotland’s was only 1.3 BILLION.

      So either the UK government is grossly mis managing North Sea oil or the GERS figures are nothing more than a crock of s**t.

    40. Valerie says:

      Off topic

      Sky news just now

      “A “sophisticated” illegal gun factory has been discovered on the edge of a Sussex market town.

      The “large-scale” operation was uncovered at a site describing itself as a gearbox repair business on an industrial estate in Hailsham, East Sussex.

      Police arrested three men found leaving the building and had to use a Taser on one of them, a National Crime Agency spokesperson said.

      Two hand guns and some ammunition were found at the site, which has been cordoned off while investigations continue.

      Greg Akehurst, 29, of no fixed address, and Mark Kinman, 63, of Bramwell Mews, Hailsham, were both charged with possessing a firearm.

      Kyle Wood, 30, of Gratwicke Drive, Littlehampton, was charged with the same offence as well as possessing ammunition.”

      I think this significant, given the rise of the Right, their open praise of all things racist, Trump, Robinson etc.

      The media has continually poured petrol on these embers.

      We need out, and fast, please.

    41. Confused says:

      I hate Corbyn.

      I suppose it’s because he and his supporters remind me of my own youthful follies when I was still a vague-Labour supporter

      – “when KINNOCK gets in, he will fix everything with SOCIALISM”

      – this is dark humour on so many level it should have its own show at the Fringe

      Nah, the last labour leader worth a damn was WILSON – consider his achievements
      – he defeats the extreme left of his party
      – he defeats the extreme right of his party
      – he defeats the tories, over and over
      – he gets in 3 times
      – he actually does stuff when he gets in
      – he has a vision of the UK which is not simply the City and a few Toffs
      – he outmanoeuvres the Americans
      – he successfully foils an all-too-serious deep state plot to do a coup – something all but forgotten in the modern era (“a government of national unity” is the standard fascist dog-whistle)
      – he does all this, simultaneously, using the factions against each other
      – he is constantly surrounded by enemies and yet he prevails or holds his own
      – his time in office was full of drama – Vietnam, the “Troubles” (what a stupid name, I hate it), Rhodesia – it wasn’t easy

      Consider – Corbyn
      – he will be lucky to survive his own party’s knives
      – he will be luckier to get in to no 10
      – even if he gets in, who will enact his policies – he is surrounded by blairite wreckers – does he take all the offices of state himself?
      – has he got what it takes in the old noggin to deal with the Americans, Europe etc?
      – the guy is a 3 legged donkey entered into the Grand National – but all the Guardian twats and identity politics fuckwits would advise us to put independence on hold for a bit – just to see what this “champion” will do for us … ha!
      (- and there’s a bridge I can sell you – or rather a nazi u boat full of gold … crypto coin … collectible star wars figurines … pristine boba fett in the box … timeshare … equity release … )

      The basic fact is Wilson (spectacular student career) probably had an IQ 50 points higher than Corbyn – the guy just hasn’t got the grey matter (unlike our Nikki or Big Eck) – he may actually be a decent fella, with the best intentions – but he hasn’t got the smarts to deal with the sharks he is trying to swim with.

      – case in point, this week, he has been savaged from ONE, admittedly highly organised and dedicated lobby – he is reeling so badly from their attack it looks like his no10 chances are gone forever …

      – if you cannot deal with attack from one direction, how will you deal with being attacked from EVERY direction

      He is not the messiah, he is not even a very a naughty boy – he should be a store greeter at ASDA. That’s his level.

    42. Ken500 says:

      Scotland has lost £4Billion+ a year from the Oil & Gas sector because of illegal high taxes. 40% since Jan 2016. Higher before. 62% when the price has fallen 75%. Losing 120,000 jobs in Scotland. Scotland has to pay £Billions on UK debt repayment on money not borrowed or spent in Scotland. Scotland loses £3Billion a year on tax evasion. UK tax Laws not being enforced by Westminster.

      Scotland pays a higher cost for fuel and energy because it is colder. Despite being in surplus and nearer the source. A 10% tax on Scotland. Scotland pays it’s own (UK) gov pensions and benefits It comes from current taxes raised. Scotland pays £Billion more for Defence. Scotland can only borrow very little. Compared to the rest of the UK which borrows £Billions more pro rata. Scotland has to make repayments on the debt, without the benefit.

      Scotland gets the lowest CAP payments, in the EU, as part of the UK Union. Westminster took the additional payments awarded to Scotland and gave it to wealthier farmers in the south. Scotland loses out in EU renewable grants and investment because of Westminster indecision. The fishing industry has been mismanaged. They have been throwing back dead fish for years. Instead of using bigger nets like Norway. UK policies.

      Adds up to £Billions. The so called deficit.

      Scotland exports more (pro rata) and raises more in taxes (pro rata) but ends up poorer In the UK. Now Brexit when Scotland voted to Remain. Westminster could not make a bigger mess.

    43. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Corbyn is a tragic version of Benn, another rabid anti EU voter, Corbyn has voted against anything EU since he was elected.”

      Just so, Valerie. Mike Russell described Corbyn in a recent speech as “essentially Bennite” in his beliefs. Those young ‘uns at Glastonbury last year who seemed to think groovy old Uncle Jeremy was a counterblast to Brexit obviously hadn’t been paying attention.

      His panacea of nationalisation makes EU membership rather difficult and one of the reasons why he is an EU “7 out of 10”, in his own words.

      I worried he might pull the wool over the eyes of former Labour voters in Scotland and damage the SNP but his “bounce” has been nothing more than a dead cat splat.

    44. Marcia says:

      Mountain Shadow

      The latter rather than the former.

    45. British Labour had one chance of sneaking a GE win in 2017,basically by being dismissed by MSM the Torys and the usual idiot political experts,

      but up pops Dugdale and Murray to tell the deluded British Labour faithfull in Scotland to vote for any party that will keep out the hated SNP,

      Colonel Ruth and the Conservative and Unionists get 13 seats in Scotland thereby denying the one chance British Labour will ever have of forming a Gov for the next 20 years.

    46. Stravaiger says:

      Corbyn will never be PM for a similar reason to Milliband. In Corbyn’s case it’s because when interviewed he always looks totally disinterested, like he doesn’t give a shit, like he’s bored and just going through the motions.

      When people see that they just think ‘nah’.

    47. Abulhaq says:

      Blaah, blaah freedom for oppressed Palestine blaah, blaah Scotland is forever our historic territory blaah, blaah….
      Jeremy Corbyn on the ‘National Question’.

    48. Dr Jim says:

      The money Scotland doesn’t borrow: Or think of a number:

      It’s figures conflation day in Scotland, the day when all British Nationalists tell Scotland we’re to poor and all that other stuff they waffle on about so here’s the quick and easy guide to understanding what GERS actually means without using a single statistic or big silly numbers

      No 1: Would Scotland as an Independent country spend it’s money on what the UK does……well no because why would we……Money saved!

      No 2: Would we want Scotland to be a world military power with a big war machine and keep funding Trident…..don’t be silly a defence force is enough the same as every other country our size and even bigger…..More money saved!

      No 3 Would Scotland be subsidising (which we do at the moment) Wales and Northern Ireland and Gibralter and da da da da and….well you get the point….More money saved!

      No 3: Would Scotland have total control of all taxes and revenues, well yes so things like oil revenues would belong to Scotland totally, and given that oil revenues have supported the entirety of UK for the last 40 odd years that’s a heck of a lot of money to share amongst 5.4 million people as opposed to around 65 million people…..so lots and lots of money saved!

      So by now you’ve probably worked out that without even talking about all the other stuff we already have Scotland’s loaded to the gunnels with money as long as we get rid of that big giant parasite south of the border England that’s sucking up all our beer money and then distributing it to London which is very very rich because the English government is sucking up all the beer money from the rest of England too but the difference is ….

      They cannae run away, Scotland can!……. Use the noodle it’s not difficult to work out Scotland doesn’t need billion pound Typhoo tea jets and Aircraft big boaty platforms flying about the world bombing folk to death wae bombs that cost a squillion each to blow up a van wae a baddie in it then tell us it was worth every penny to keep us safe when it was really all about a bunch of rich war machine mongerers getting richer by selling the stuff to other folk so they could steal some oil or make sure somebody else doesn’t get it

      But we pay them to do it and they take us for mugs for doing it and don’t get me started on paying for things like the House of Lords it’s refurbishment or fixing their clock or Buck House or a big train that’s no even coming here

      Don’t do me any more favours England I cannae afford whit ye charge fur them

      These comments are free from statistics because I know nothing about statistics but I’m an expert on knowing when I’m being ripped off by con men, so just like your shady electricity supplier *Switch to YES* and you could save ££££££££££££££s
      switch to YES

    49. Fred says:

      Anent gaslighting! what Ur grannie called a “Penny Mantle!” now costs £6.50. Just sayin.

    50. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Nice big letter by oor ain Robert J. Sutherland in The National today.

      😉

    51. Martin says:

      So the man himself is currently in the Church across the road from my work in Possil giving a speech to literally several people and at least 25 journalists and cameramen. I counted about 40 people all in and a further 8 on the street watching (though in fairness as I walked out to go to lidl one did ask me if there was a funeral for “someone famous” on- which I had to reply “in a way, yes” to). Stay tuned for BBC suggesting hundreds of thousands turned out to hear him speak.

      It struck me that in reality there’s very little difference between him coming to Possil to make a speech and Baroness Mone Jr going to Bridgeton for a TV documentary. Both are on poverty safari to generate good PR.

    52. Arbroath1320 says:

      As the “infamous” GERS comic is released today I thought I’d leave a few pointers from people who might not be regular readers of this illustrious site. 😉

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwaMk0hk0Fg

      http://archive.is/WhwlU

      http://archive.is/JC6pX

      http://archive.is/jojRT

    53. jfngw says:

      GERS reveals one of two things.

      Either it is true and UK governance is skewed to the benefit of England, how could 16% of the UK population be responsible for 58% of the deficit without this being the case.

      Or it is a lie to fool the three other nations of the UK they are dependent on England.

      Whichever it is, it just proves the only sensible option is independence, since either the system is weighted against us or we are being lied to.

    54. call me dave says:

      Gaslighting is a form of manipulation that seeks to sow seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or members of a group.

      eg: MSM V Scotland.

      probably from the good old scary film: Gaslight.

      Ingrid Bergman. Charles Boyer. Joseph Cotton.

      The gas lights went dim and brighter all by themselves driving her mad + other things. Worth a watch.

      My Mother said “I went off Boyer after that film” 🙂

      PS:
      Douglas Fraser gas-lighting there tiptoeing round GERS again waffle and confusion. We’re all doomed. FGS!

    55. Fred says:

      So “Fanny by Gaslight!” could be Colin Alexander?

    56. starlaw says:

      Had Jeremy been a street entertainer in Wishaw today, he would have been lucky to get his bus fare home.
      Wonder what the MSM will make of this excuse for a crowd as it would have been almost entirely made up of them and local councillors.

    57. Robert Roddick says:

      See British Nationalist institutions. See satire, it’s deid.

    58. Bob Mack says:

      Just mentioned to my neighbour that the GERS would probably be as dismal as usual.

      “Don’t think so “says he “Gerrard has bought a lot of fair players”

      We are on different wavelengths.

    59. Iain says:

      Soutar’s religious views chiming with those of ex LibDem leader Farron? Meantime, Lab being indignant about Monklands Hospital – is there not some history there too that Lab would prefer we have forgotten about?

    60. call me dave says:

      @Bob Mack

      Aye same thing this morning in the cafe.

      Old dear ‘Daily Mail’ reader, regular at the next table most mornings, sits down opens up the paper.

      I’m just leaving and says
      “Don’t get depressed with the GERS figures.

      She returns with a smile and “I never read the back pages” 🙂

      “But …but…never mind” says I as I walked off. Tories eh!

    61. Thepnr says:

      Even if Jeremy Corbyn became Prime Minister(unlikely) and intended to keep his promise of “boosting industry in Scotland” he would be unable to do so.

      Scotland’s economic prosperity would be so far down the bottom end of a very long list that once in power it would never cross his mind again. No one would pull him up about just another broken British Nationalist promise to Scotland.

      The reality is that England has too many issues to deal with themselves and that demand immediate attention. The prisons, probation service, railways, crime levels and the NHS in England are all at crisis points.

      The welfare state is at the point of collapse and people are literally starving to death, homelessness figures dramatically increased and all that with Brexit as the cherry on top!

      So no matter which British Nationalist party wins the next election Scotland will never appear on their radar This reality is what we must point out to Scottish voters. Only by taking charge of our own Parliament and making all the decisions on spending the revenues raised can a difference be made here.

      The solution is obvious, support Independence for Scotland and make Scottish issues the top priority for EVERY government in Scotland or find your countries issues once more at the end of a VERY long list of English problems, that will forever take priority over ours.

      The decision is ours, Scottish choices made by a Scottish government.

    62. Nana says:

      BBC lies [again]

      This is disgraceful @BBCNews – Your presenter clearly states that GERS says “…the Scottish Government last year spent nearly £13.5Bn more than it raised…”. This is a really serious factual error & I expect to see a equally prominent/high profile apology to

      https://twitter.com/PaulWheelhouse/status/1032243662028255233

    63. fletch49er says:

      I’m beginning to think that a prerequisite to being a member of the Labour party is that you have the memory retention of a Goldfish

    64. Dan Huil says:

      Once again the Rev soundly rebuts Labour/britnat hypocrisy. Hopefully the Scottish government will copy and relay the Rev’s latest piece of proper journalism.

    65. HandandShrimp says:

      Corbyn’s knowledge of the hinterlands north of the wall are limited to say the least. He relies on people like Findlay for briefings in order to sound half way sensible in the pre-organised photo opportunities and faux “meet the people” sound bite speeches. Therein lies hios problem. Relying on people like Findlay whose only driving force is an irrational hatred of the SNP is not a sound foundation on which to build anything. He would be better consulting Murphy…well maybe not.

    66. Macart says:

      @Nana

      You know? I don’t know what is more depressing. My lack of shock, or the action itself. (shrugs)

      They are what they are Nana.

    67. Breeks says:


      Bob Mack says:
      22 August, 2018 at 2:41 pm

      Just mentioned to my neighbour that the GERS would probably be as dismal as usual.

      “Don’t think so “says he “Gerrard has bought a lot of fair players”

      We are on different wavelengths…

      You might be Bob, but on the other hand, the BritNat Establishment has your neighbour’s mind tuned to the exact wavelength where it wants it to be focussed.

    68. galamcennalath says:

      Tom Harris writes in the Telegraph an article behind the paywall which is titled …

      “Backing Brexit could be the only way that Scottish Labour can save itself”

      Doh! I can think of a simpler and far more effective way to save Labour in Scotland ….. back Indy!

    69. Cubby says:

      Sadly still reading comments on twitter and elsewhere that the BBC is not fit for purpose ( in response to their lies re GERS figures ).

      The BBC is fit for purpose because it is the British state propaganda broadcaster and it is only doing the job expected of it. It has in my opinion been very successful at its job for a long long time.

      I repeat BBC = British state propaganda broadcaster.

      Expect lies, deceit, omission, part truths, misrepresentations. All attached to Scots are rubbish, Scotland is rubbish, SNP are rubbish and Most important of all Scotgov is rubbish stories.

      Only total dummys in the BBC will not be aware that this is its role in Scotland.

    70. yesindyref2 says:

      GERS figures are fine, to set us going into Indy Ref 2 in March 2019.

      They show a steady reduction in notional “deficit”, which screws the Unionists over something rotten, though I daresay the odd squiggly line lie sheet will appear if it hasn’t already.

      Thing is that Unionists take about the deficit NOW, whereas at a 1% drop a year, the notional deficit would be down from the 2017-18 7.9% to 4.9% in 2020-21, the last year Scotland would be in the UK, and to 3.9% in 2021-22, the first year of Indy, even without all spending on behalf of Scotland being able to be IN Scotland with its economic benefit, or without changes of policy and indeed such as contributions to Trident.

      Or even the debt, details of which depend completely on the negotiations and settlement. And the other thing is that a quick look at the figures (I think off the top of my head) shows that as activity in oil declines, the onshore “deficit” decreaes faster, whereas if oil increaes, then the overall deficit decreases. Which makes sense, as the companies and workers who do less in oil because of a decline in oil price or activity, change over and do better in onshore activities.

      Scotland will be perfectly set up to become Independent in 2021, and now we’ll see the Unionists getting even more desperate and wild!

    71. gus1940 says:

      Re GERS – Scotland is charged a % of the cost of civil servants in London plus the building and other costs thereof.

      The tax and NI of these people will be credited to England but charged to Scotland – Win Win for England.

      That is just one example of the fact that GERS is nonsense.

    72. yesindyref2 says:

      @Nana
      It’s good to see Tam being effective, see him around on twitter feeds doing good stuff. Nice guy, met him at Glasgow Green in 2014. Or was that 2015? Memory eh!

    73. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      galamcennalath at 3.53

      Exactly! That’s the pressure that should be put on them.

    74. galamcennalath says:

      Cubby says:

      BBC = British state propaganda broadcaster.

      Expect lies, deceit, omission, part truths, misrepresentations.

      Yup, spot on. They are doing their job – opposing all existential threats to the UK.

      Thing is, thankfully, they are not very good at it! Ham fisted interviews, fake news, obvious bias – they are now getting eviscerated on social media on a daily basis. It has reached the stage where almost every ‘Scottish’ current affairs programme results on an online backlash.

      Not everyone will see the online response, but their absurdly poor journalism must be obvious to an ever increasing percentage of even these folks.

      It reeks of desperation and panic, which must be a good sign!

    75. Cubby says:

      Yesindyref2 @ 4.21pm

      The GERS figures are not fine. Britnat propaganda. If you are a supporter of independence why are you promoting BRITNAT PROPAGANDA. GERS = MINCE. And I’m not talking about the football team.

    76. galamcennalath says:

      yesindyref2 says:

      … Indy Ref 2 in March 2019 … become Independent in 2021

      I think that would be my ideal timetable too.

      Have the vote just before Brexit day while Scotland is still in the EU. Which has the bonus that EU citizens here will vote on what is their future too. The weather then might not be a perfect choice but we can’t have everything our way.

      If Independence coincided with the end of the Transition Period we can spend the 21 months negotiating with England and with the EU. England then moves into whatever future realionship it agrees, and Scotland stays in the European single market on becoming Independent. Our future long term EU relationship being sorted out when we are a fully independent country.

    77. ronnie anderson says:

      Rev could U no hiv put ah bit of Masking Tape er Corbyn’s mouth instead of a play arrow .

    78. Andy Anderson says:

      I am getting annoyed now with the antics of the lot of them. I must give myself a break from the media just to stay sane.

    79. jfngw says:

      The normal argument to demonstrate that the BBC is not biased is that both sides complain so they naturally they must be unbiased. This of course breaks down in Scotland as rarely is there any complaints by unionists of the BBC being pro-independence, in fact the only complaints I see about the BBC in Scotland is their unionist bias. The only conclusion I can make from this is that in Scotland the BBC is biased, I conclude this by using the same criteria used to measure their lack of bias.

      Hope that makes sense, it did in my head, not sure I’ve written it that well.

    80. TD says:

      “It reeks of desperation and panic, which must be a good sign!”

      Or it could be that we have moved into a new phase of the propaganda war where the Britnats stop caring about being caught out with their bias. They just keep trotting out the mantra about being impartial while doing the exact opposite. Oppressive regimes around the world don’t really make any significant effort to conceal their corruption and many people in those countries just accept that. I’m not sure we are there yet, but I do worry that the UK is going that way. What is clear is that the BBC are no longer being very subtle about their biased coverage. To me that suggests they don’t really care about it.

    81. Clydebuilt says:

      National front page . . . Campaign For New Scottish Currency

      Isn’t this simply boxing in the Scottish Government, putting pressure on them to adopt a position that obviously they haven’t been keen to adopt. How policies will play politically during an Indy Ref has to be the signigficant driver in deciding the prospectus.

      Indy first, everything up for grabs thereafter

    82. Moonlight says:

      I wonder if there is mileage in spreading the word of this alleged deficit in England. Might just prompt some to come out and say “Why are we paying all this extra money to the uppity Scots who are not at all grateful and are doing all they can to scupper our Brexit ?”

      Just a thought.

    83. wull2 says:

      Independence first.
      Then we will the rest later.
      Until then tell everyone you know to vote YES next time.

    84. jfngw says:

      Dear England,

      In order to be a good neighbour I am willing to forgo your generous GERS subsidy and set you free of the burden of Scotland. By these figures the rest of the UK will be a land of milk and honey without you having to support people like me. I find it hard to understand why you wish to hold onto a country that is obviously pulling down your economy.

      Unless of course it is all a lie and the figures are not 100% accurate.

    85. ronnie anderson says:

      Wings Stall Dundee !8/8 .

      Income from stall —————— £307
      Taught by Muhammad
      ( foodbank donation ) ————-£100

      Ayemail .com
      crowdfunder ————————£300
      ( bacs transfer)
      Cash in Hand ———————–£312

    86. Craig P says:

      On GERS, I’ll make this observation.

      Just prior to the American War of Independence, the British government spent more money on the American colonies than it received in tax.

      Loyalists used this fact to scoff at the financial viability of American independence.

      Yes… thanks to the British government’s figures there were people who believed that the USA would be an economic failure.

      Not Adam Smith, who wrote:

      the effects of the monopoly of the colonial trade are more loss than profit.

      And

      They are very weak who flatter themselves that, in the state to which things have come, our colonies will be easily conquered by force alone. The persons who now govern the resolutions of what they call the Continental Congress, feel in themselves at this moment a degree of importance which, perhaps, the greatest subjects in Europe scarce feel. From shopkeepers, tradesmen, and attornies, they are become statesmen and legislators, and are employed in conceiving a new form of government for an extensive empire, which, they flatter themselves, will become, and which, indeed, seems very likely to become, one of the greatest and most formidable that ever was in the world.

      The difference with Scotland is that the American patriots had self belief (and OK, some crucial assistance from the French) whereas the Scots cower before our opened cage door like a pack of whipped dogs.

      Andrew Carneigie had it right on a visit to his homeland when he said:

      The greatest error in your country is that things are just upside down. You look to your officials to govern you instead of you governing them.

    87. Hamish100 says:

      Tom Harris resigned from the Labour Party . Why, cause he has no chance of being reelected. He is a Tory supported by BBC scotchland and ?dark funded unionism.

    88. stewartb says:

      jfngw @ 5:17 pm

      You wrote: “Dear England, In order to be a good neighbour I am willing to forgo your generous GERS subsidy and set you free of the burden of Scotland”.

      This is such an appropriate expression of concern coming as it does BTL following an article about Mr Corbyn and Labour. You are to be commended! What you are saying is really about ‘solidarity’ isn’t it? A selfless concern for – an expression of common cause with – improving the welfare of working people in (where is it usually again …) Liverpool! And after all, is Labour in Scotland not into occupying the moral high ground on ‘solidarity’?

    89. yesindyref2 says:

      @Cubby
      GERS, as gus1940 says, does not include revenues on spending “on behalf of Scotland” that doesn’t occur IN Scotlnd, and that will inevitably include large sums of spending devolved to the Scottish Government, as well as on reserved matters.

      There are two ways of tackling GERS. One way is yours which will perhaps have some currency with the NOes and undecideds, the other is to tackle the unionists head on. The unionists call those who pooh pooh GERS “GERS deniers” and that will have some influence on some NOes and undecideds.

      From the latter point of view the GERS figures are indeed fine, as they show the notional deficit coming down year after year, with an estimate of around 5% of GDP the day of Indy in 2021.

      Incidentally, that spending on behalf of Scotland but outside of Scotland also affects our GDP, which should be higher, hence reducing the percentage of GDP any figure represents.

      GERS figures need to be tackled BOTH ways, to reach and presuade NO voters and the undecided.

    90. Nana says:

      I’d like to see England’s Gers, perhaps the SNP could ask for them and while they are at it demand the treasury shows the books after all what have got to hide. What’s the big secret eh? Maybe the fact they have robbed us blind, could that be it?

      Mundell says Scotland too poor, much panic methinks
      https://twitter.com/BBCScotlandNews/status/1032297041635041285

      http://www.businessforscotland.com/gers-oil-revenues-rise-scotlands-illustrative-deficit-as-part-of-the-uk-falls/

      From last year
      http://www.businessforscotland.com/research-briefing-resource-governance-taxation-track-record-uk-government-uks-oil-gas-sector/

      The Secret Figures Behind North Sea Oil
      http://platformlondon.org/scotland/

      Nicola says
      https://twitter.com/BBCScotlandNews/status/1032296236118880256

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/16592238.snp-msp-demands-apology-from-bbc-over-disgraceful-report-on-gers-figures/

    91. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Great post @donnywho says at 11:14 am

      “I think that the latest Weeze re OIL and Gas is to simply not tax them…..”

      Worse than not taxing extraction at source the UK Government also gives the E&P Majors tax rebates.

      http://www.businessforscotland.com/research-briefing-resource-governance-taxation-track-record-uk-government-uks-oil-gas-sector/

      “UK taxpayers paid BP £340 million in tax rebates in 2015 and 2016. Other countries such as Azerbaijan received up to £10,048 million in taxes..”

    92. Calum McKay says:

      Corbyn will never be pm, he is an obstacle to almost everything positive that is and could happen in Scotland. In that respect, he has more in common the tories than with progressive and radical Scots.

      Corbyn lives in a bubble, a 1970s bubble focusing on injustices that have moved on with out him. This is coupled with a staggering inability to see increasing injustices like the governance of Scotland or his own party’s treatment of Jewish people!

      I am surprised Corbyn is not campaigning on the benefits of increased tractor production that labour would bring to Scotland.

      But most of all I detest the way Corbyn tricked young people in England into supporting him by pretending to want to remain in EU, basically, he lied through his teeth.

    93. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Confused @ 12:35,

      Well analysed. You don’t seem to be living up (down?) to your moniker in the least! =laugh=

      The thing is, 1970’s man Corbyn could still have been as cool as the Glastonburyites once saw him, but over time he has revealed himself to be painfully unable to lead, being visibly self-conflicted about virtually anything of any importance, despite all his supposed principles. The C4 “one question” interview was only the latest example.

      (And that’s without even considering his Scottish dimensional bypass. Corbyn is Unionism writ small.)

      The contrast with our own First Minister could not be greater.

    94. yesindyref2 says:

      The problem with GERS is that nobody really tackles it, with respect to the epending on behalf of Scotland but spent in the ruK. So here goes an illustrative example.

      Say £15 billion attributed to Scotland is spent in the rUK, and in addition £1.5 billion spent by ScotGov is also spent in the rUK, All because of being part of the Union.

      That’s £16.5 billion total and adds to the GDP which is, asy, at £165 billion, that’s a 10% increase. So, mathematically slightly inaccurate, a deficit of £13.4 billion at 7.9% of GDP becomes £13.4 billion at 7.1% of GDP.

      But there’s the £16.5 billion spent in the rUK and its economic multiplier which is, say (from elsewhere) 0.6, meaning in easy terms, £10 billion more revenue.

      Which makes the actual deficit £3.4 billion for about 2% of GDP (calculator broke).

      Which is, coincidentally, the same as the UK.

    95. Andy-B says:

      O/T apologies.

      But is anyone aware of this, and does the S&G know about it.

      https://mobile.twitter.com/ullamuddle/status/1032249315383803904

    96. Colin Alexander says:

      Stu, how about addressing the story in today’s Scottish editions of the Daily Mail regarding the alleged continued deliberate breaching of Article 8 of the Human Rights Act by schools in Scotland and so ultimately by the Scottish Govt.

      What they call “big brother is watching you” unlawful data collection that breaches the human right to a private family life.

      Is it another false “SNP-bad” story or what?

    97. Abulhaq says:

      We need a new mentality in Scotland, one that is ‘detached’ and does not care what UK promoting politicians think. We’ve had our stomach turning fill of them. Time to be truly ‘selfish’.

    98. Footsoldier says:

      I do hope Keith Brown’s Rebuttal Unit is up and running. Looking forward to hearing the SNP hierarchy forceably making it clear that GERS is a pile of estimates that would not apply to an independent Scotland.

    99. yesindyref2 says:

      Come on hurry up, I want my flag so get this funded.

      https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/indy-kits-for-yes-groups/x/12092114#/

      Yes We Can!

    100. Ken500 says:

      Scotland raises £60Billion in tax revenues. An increase of £6Billion.

      Scotland has on average £30Billion block grant. £16Billion on (UK) OAP and benefits.
      £4Billion on Defence. £3Billion paying UK debt. Money borrowed and spent in the rest of the UK.

      Scotland has lost £4Billion+ a year in Oil & Gas revenues because of Tory illegal taxes. 40% since Jan 2016. More before that. 62% when the price had fallen 75%. Losing 120,000 jobs. Loses £Billions in EU grants and investment because of Westminster indecision.

      Scotland has to pay £Billions on debt repayments of money not borrowed or spent in Scotland. Scotland loses £3Billion in tax evasion. UK tax Laws not enforced by Westminster. The fishing industry has thrown dead fish back for years. Westminster policies. The Scottish Gov can borrow very little for growth.

      Total £Billions. More than the so called deficit.

      Scotland raises more in tax revenues pro rata. Exports more pro rata and ends up poorer by comparison. Is in surplus in fuel and energy and nearer the source but pays 10% on average more because it is colder. A burden in the Scottish economy.

      The unionists lies. Why do they hang on so long? Pathetic liars.

    101. yesindyref2 says:

      Note by the way that my figures were totally illustrative in my 6.18pm posting, you’d have to do them for £10 billion, £5 billion, or some reasonable guesstimate. So don;t go quoting them as fact, juast as an illustration of the effect of the distortion that GERS introduces by its very basic design fault. I.e., that while spending is estimated for the UK on behalf of Scotland, revenues generated are NOT.

    102. stewartb says:

      On the day that ‘deficit’ is a key word in the news, its worth remembering this on the significance of deficits for independent states that have their own currency.

      Who worries about deficits? Not John Redwood, doyen of the Tory right wing. This from his own blog in March this year:

      “I have not been worried about the state deficit for sometime, ever since Mr Brown found out that the UK state can literally print money to pay its bills. Mr Osborne, originally a critic of this in opposition, then discovered its charms in office as well.”

      Source: http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2018/03/05/the-twin-deficits/

      And this is Prof Richard Murphy’s comment on Redwood’s view:

      “… what he (Redwood) has done is let an enormous cat out of the bag. He has admitted there is no need for a government to balance its books. He has admitted QE cancels debt.

      He has then admitted the whole ‘passing debt to the next generation’ phobia is wrong. And he has admitted as a result that there was no reason for austerity, the imposition of which served no economic purpose.

      As a result he has, in two paragraphs, shredded the whole economic rationale on which he has been elected to Parliament.”

      Source: http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2018/03/06/john-redwood-admits-it-there-never-was-a-reason-for-austerity/

    103. Croompenstein says:

      Stu, how about addressing the story in today’s Scottish editions of the Daily Mail

      You could use it to wipe your arse when you get caught short in Largs you ragin fud

    104. donnywho says:

      The challenges with GERS are all fairly well documented. What is impossible to figure out is the extent that it hits our wealth.

      For instance if you guesstimate our costs, tax, income, expenditure and many other variables that feed into them then you are likely to get Garbage.

      So let us take Income… what is our share of car making within the UK… little i expect, but how do you allocate our share? Is it 8.7% of the whole as some costs and income are allocated or do they have a more concrete figure? It gives them so much leeway and no oversight whatsoever.

      So does a civil servant round up or down, after all they were presented with Medals for producing negative spin during the Referendum! And remember subversives were not to be promoted… communists, union leaders and worst of all nationalists were not to be allowed to see sensitive documents.

      Now let a Civil servant discover that Scotland produces 70% of that quintessentially English product gin, does he allocate our 8.7% pro rata share or does he tell his supervisor the bad news?

      Then when the figures are collated they seem a little high… growth in the UK hasn’t been 4% so do you adjust the figures to something more reasonable?

      You have to remember these figures are mostly guesses and collated by politicized civil servants, the scope for fudge is legendary on both sides of the balance sheet!

    105. Cubby says:

      Yesindyref2 @6.18pm

      The problem with GERS is not that nobody tackles it as you stated but the problem is people like you who give it credibility by your “analyses”.

      GERS is Britnat propaganda full stop. You are promoting it – leaves you open to being thought of as misguided or a sneaky Britnat troll.

    106. Shinty says:

      The question the MSM should be asking is why do the SG not have access to the raw data.

      Silly me, would be like the McCrone report all over again.

      Remember the chart from 1900 to 1921 showing Scotland’s revenue & expenditure and the vast sums being retained by the Treasury for ‘imperial services’.

      eg. 1920 – 1921

      Revenue contributed by Scotland £119,753,000
      Expediture on Scottish Services £33,096,000
      ______________

      Balance retained in London £86,657,000
      for ‘ imperial services’
      (dispersed in England)

      Sorry don’t know how to link to a picture of the report.
      The treasury stopped producing this report (as they were clearly robbing us blind)

    107. Cubby says:

      Yesindyref2

      Your posts on GERS are really pissing me off. Are you Colin Alexander????

      “Revenues generated are not” you seem to believe these figs for revenues for Scotland are accurate. Why would they be? The Britnats lie about everything so why should we trust THEIR figures for revenues. You expect me to believe that these figures will not be managed down? Get a grip.

      I repeat GERS is classic Britnat propaganda. By carrying out your analyses you give credence to this propaganda and therefore are supporting the Britnats.

    108. Dan Huil says:

      Britnat GERS is 100% political; nothing to do with economics.

    109. Hamish100 says:

      Colin Alexander reads the Daily Mail. No surprise

    110. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      The British Nationalist Government at Westminster has been robbing Scotland and it’s people blind for many years aided by Scottish non patriot politicians helped sadly by the political ignorance of the Scottish people.

      Unfortunately for HM Government the Scots are slowly but surely realising the truth despite the constant but poorly presented lies and propaganda.

      One of the problems for the British Nationalist regime darn sarf is the dammed internet these uppity Scots have learned to read and now they are doing this internet thing.

      The Scots are doing it deliberately.

    111. PacMan says:

      re: GERS

      From the Scottish Goverments webpage on GERS:

      Frequently Asked Questions

      Q: Do you use company headquarters to assign corporation tax or taxes like VAT?

      A: Corporation tax on trading profits is estimated on a company-by-company basis, depending on the economic activity each company has in Scotland, not location of company headquarters. VAT is a consumption tax, and is therefore estimated based on purchases that are made in Scotland, rather than the location of a company’s head office.

      Here is a link to find information from companies, including where they are resgistered which I assume is where they VAT and Corporation tax is collected from:

      Get information about a company

      This is obtained by a simple web search. If somebody could clarify that these taxes are accurately reflected in the GERS figures then I will accept that Scotland is dependent on the United Kingdom to run a functioning society and that we couldn’t exist as an independent country.

      P.S. I’m not holding my breath LOL.

    112. HandandShrimp says:

      Is it another false “SNP-bad” story or what?

      Colin, the story is in the Waily Heil. It is another contortion and distortion. Teachers share information on pupils. So what? Do they sit in silence in the staff room?

      Something happens to a pupil and Waily will be the first to scream “if a teacher knew why did they not tell someone?” It is two faced gobshite and not worth bothering about.

    113. Capella says:

      Someone has preserved that twitter thread about the truly abysmal state of the UK economy compared to just about every other country.
      Unless, of course, you are fabulously wealthy in which case everything is just fine.

      https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1025630498431926272.html

    114. Robert Peffers says:

      @Colin Alexander says: 22 August, 2018 at 6:38 pm:

      ” … Is it another false “SNP-bad” story or what?”

      How about you tell us, Colin? The seeking out of SNP BAAAD! stories is your forte not ours. Another thing is why don’t you tell us who it is you anticipate will lead Scotland out of the union if not the SNP?

      Strikes me that anyone who seeks to do down the SNP cannot really be a seeker of Scottish independence unless they can postulate a reasonable alternative way out of the Treaty of Union because, and I’ve been looking since primary school over 70 years ago for a way out of the union and I cannot find another way. So, Colin, straight question – <b<Who, if not the SNP, will lead Scotland back to independence?

    115. Danny says:

      Cubby 7.27pm

      “GERS is Britnat propaganda full stop. You are promoting it – leaves you open to being thought of as misguided or a sneaky Britnat troll.”

      Myself and Mr Peffers have already singled out this particular individual as an “English Plant”.

      He just tries too hard and that is what gives him away.

    116. Danny says:

      If anyone mentions GERS to you, just tell them that after Independence, Scotland will be charging England £15 Billion Pounds a year for the lease of Faslane for their Nuke Subs.

      It wipes out this false Deficit in an instance.

      End of conversation.

    117. stewartb says:

      “By carrying out your analyses (of GERS) you give credence to this propaganda ….”

      Head in sand stuff here in my view. GERS exists and will be used by opponents of independence, regardless of what we think of its status and limitations. We do need to fully understand and be able to articulate (and re-frame) the GERS’ issues on the doorstep and street stall around what it does and does not tell us.

      MSPs have recently assessed GERS. See: ‘How to make data count: ….’ report of the Economy, Jobs and Fair Work Committee of the Scottish Parliament, 2018. (http://www.parliament.scot/S5_EconomyJobsFairWork/Reports/EJFWS052018R03.pdf )

      This cross-party report states:

      “54. The debates on the merits and de-merits of GERS are well rehearsed. GERS estimates the contribution of the people and businesses in Scotland (i.e. Scottish taxpayers) toward the level of public spending for Scotland (i.e. people both inside and outside of Scotland). It takes the current constitutional settlement as a given.

      55. In recent months there has been a focus on the robustness of GERS. Setting aside any political or constitutional questions about what GERS says (or does not say), areas of methodological focus include: the use of estimates for some UK- wide revenues and the apportionment of certain expenditures to Scotland (but which take place outside Scotland). These debates are not new; many of them having been discussed in 2007 by the Scottish Parliament’s Finance Committee. Professor Murphy in his written submission to this inquiry argued that GERS does not follow proper accruals accounting practices, compromising (in his view) the use of such figures as Scotland’s estimated fiscal balance and deficit.”

      And elsewhere the report states:

      “Scottish Fiscal Commission (SFC):

      173. SFC drew on economic statistics from a range of sources – ONS, Scottish Government’s Quarterly National Accounts Scotland (QNAS) and GERS, and local government finance data – for their forecasting.”

      So GERS is accorded ‘status’ and it does our case no good to simply dismiss all of it as propaganda. We need an evidence base for rebuttal. The latter has advanced significantly in the last year or two: some contributions BTL today have sought to develop such arguments further. Good!

    118. ScottieDog says:

      Well I avoided social media for much of today having tried early doors to highlight misunderstandings about macro v microeconomics. The best retort I heard was that the UK would pay down all its debt in a few years!

      The profound effects that would have are too many to mention. Anyway it will never happen!

      So GERS. What does it tell us?
      If we assume there is a deficit then it tells us that there istoo little demand in the Scottish economy.

      The yoons will hark on about big cuts to ‘get rid of the deficit’. Actually this would have the opposite effect. Their problem is that they are looking at the economy from the point of view of their own finances. (If I cut my spending I will save money and pay down my debts).

      The best think to ask them is where does their income come from?. If they are confused, simply inform them that it is wholly dependent on other people’s spending. For example if you sell dog food, your business is dependent on folk getting dogs and spending money on your product.

      If people decide to cut their expenditure on dog food, your income decreases. You’ll probably have to lay some staff off to save money and they will qualify for welfare payments. Oh dear, that ADDS to the govt deficit.

      What the yoons and their economists miss is that AGGREGATE INCOME IS THE SAME AS AGGREGATE SPENDING. A cut in spending will result in reduced income and will have the opposite effect of that intended. It’s what economists call a paradox of thrift.

      So you want to reduce the deficit, your best chance is to increase spending (and yes the deficit) until there is sufficient demand in the economy to create sufficient jobs. The income and other taxes returning to the treasury will close the gap between govt spending and tax revenue and the deficit will narrow.

      A great example is the 10pc defects run by U.K. gov in 2009. Sadly the bulk of govt assistance was provided for the banks and the city of London. Some of the money spent in the bailouts of the finance sector of course has found its way back to the treasury. Of course these ridiculous salaries Yeild high tax revenue and so the narratIve is that these guys fund the economy. It is however the other way around.

      The main thing to remember is that spending funds tax, not the other way around. Money has to enter the economy before it can be taxed back out.

    119. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 22 August, 2018 at 4:21 pm:

      ” … GERS figures are fine, to set us going into Indy Ref 2 in March 2019.”

      Absolute pish! Come on, yesindyref2, why are you reinforcing the Westminster Establishment’s false figures?

      There are hardly any figures in the GERS Reports that are other than Westminster guesstimates and/or Westminster deliberate lies.

      Not the least of which is that the North Sea and West of Shetland oil & Gas Revenues are, “United Kingdom Extra Regio revenues”.

      Here is the actual definition of what, “extra regio”, means. It is taken from the actual GERS paper itself:-

      “a (notional) separate region of the UK (the extra-regio territory) and not to allocate this to specific geographic regions within the UK mainland.

      That, without a shadow of doubt is most certainly a, probably, illegal term when factually up to 98% of the oil & Gas revenue comes from minerals extracted from beneath what are internationally recognised under the International Law of the Seas as territory directly under the jurisdiction of the Independent Law of the Kingdom of Scotland as agreed in the Treaty of Union.

      Must I go to the Oxford Dictionary and quote you the meaning of, “notional”? Must I also explain that no part of the Kingdom of Scotland is region of the Kingdom of England? Scotland is the ONLY Equally Sovereign Kingdom with the Kingdom of England in the Union and there is no Kingdom of England Parliament.

      It is plainly daylight robbery. That particular GERS Figure alone would, if correctly accounted would show Scotland in surplus but there are many more such accountancy practices that would see even a corner shop charged with fraud.

    120. Robert Peffers says:

      @jfngw says: 22 August, 2018 at 4:56 pm:

      ” … I conclude this by using the same criteria used to measure their lack of bias.
      Hope that makes sense, it did in my head, not sure I’ve written it that well.”

      The logic is impeccable, jfngw, as is the explanation.

      You could have added that as Kingdom of Scotland people are outnumbered by around 10 to 1 by kingdom of England persons that figure would need to be taken into account.

    121. yesindyref2 says:

      @cubby
      If you want to put your fingers in your ears singing la-la-la and bury your head in the sands two things happen. One, the unionists ream your backside and two, you get sand in your mouth. But hey, it’s a free world, whatever floats your boat.

    122. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      On economic analyses in general, I notice that recently there was a revision of some of the figures, giving the Scottish economy a paper “boost” recently and slightly earlier a “write-down” (mostly due to significantly-inflated construction figures, apparently).

      Leaving aside the thorny question of the original political motivation behind GERS, it struck me that even when civil service economists are honestly striving to get some kind of grip on reality, it’s by no means an easy job. (As Prof. Murphy has previously observed.)

      Hence I’m another who doesn’t believe it’s a good strategy to get enmeshed in detailed arguments about numbers, because it befuddles rather than enlightens, and thus wins no converts.

      Re-framing is absolutely key here.*

      Which surely however can include examples that convincingly reveal holes or skews in the GERS reckoning that disadvantage Scotland, whether inadvertent or otherwise.

      *(Rental of Coulport/Faslane being one good example, if people don’t foolishly pre-empt it.)

    123. Sarah says:

      @Andy-B at 6.34 p.m. I emailed Marine Licensing, a Scot gov dept. about it – I think there’s a consultation deadline looming. The email address is MS [dot] MarineLicensing [at] gov [dot] scot.

      You are right – dredging kelp is as bad for marine life as all the other trawling and dredging. Kelp beds are nursery areas for fish and a whole eco-system so should be protected, in my view.

    124. yesindyref2 says:

      @stewartb
      What Murphy said wayback “First, my criticism was that GERS did not apply the accruals principle correctly.

      http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017/09/04/my-thanks-to-the-fraser-of-allander-for-agreeing-i-am-right-on-gers-now-lets-have-the-debate-on-what-to-do-about-it/

      which was in reply to a FoAI article written about his previous article, the one that caused unionist graphs to go totally squiggle-eyed. This is the FoAI article:

      https://fraserofallander.org/scottish-economy/gers/gers-location-location-location/#more-2820

      which has, amongs other things

      For illustrative purposes, let’s boost the Scottish Exchequer by the full tax and economic multipliers as if the remaining 10% (i.e. £7.1 billion) had been injected into the Scottish economy.
      . . .
      We add the £7.1 billion to government demand for the output of either (1) the “Public administration & defence” sector, or (2) the “Education” sector, in the Scottish Input-Output table. This boosts Scottish GDP by (1) 5.5%, or (2) 7.5%, once all the multiplier effects are included (the difference reflects the higher multipliers associated with Education spending than with spending on Public administration & defence). If tax revenues also grew by the same amount, the combination would reduce the GERS deficit from 8.3% currently to (1) 6.0%, or (2) 5.2%, of Scottish GDP.

      That was Sep 1 2017 after last year’s GERS, so reduce that by 1% and that’s their equivalent figure – 5.2%$ minus 1% = 4.2%.

      But the thing is that the actually dismissive article was off the cuff, and estimates, and the author was against the whole idea, so the real position is quite likely to be nearer my off the cuff figures.

      Problem is as I say, too many people just dismissing GERS, no effort to actually try to put a figure on the omission of a proper accruals based system.

      And yeah, also as ScottieDog says. Basically Austerity is a busted flush, and reduces and weakens the economy.

    125. yesindyref2 says:

      @RJS
      The problem is this, you’re talking to an undecided who says:

      “The media and unionists say that Independent Scotland will have a deficit 4 times that of the UK” (as is already being said by the unionists).

      Do you answer

      “Yeah, but GERS is crap” to which the reply is:

      “But the figures are produced by the Scottish Government, the SNP have commented on them, the media are commenting, and so ar respected financial insitutions”.

      “Yeah, but GERS is crap”. (undecided does not move to YES)

      Or do you patiently explain the following:

      1), The deficit, which is a notional one from estimates, has been steadily reducing since 2009. Like the UK as a whole it shot up after the bank disasters. And Scotland is NOT Independent this year, in 3 years time it will have reduced another 3%, from 7.9% to 4.9% at worst, and in the first year of Independence will be less than 4% and probably a lot less because of policies more suited to Scotland than the UK as a whole.

      2). Why should we care about the UK’s deficit or surplus? Do we care that Germany currently runs a surplus whereas the UK runs a deficit? Scotland’s deficit or surplus will be our own to look after.

    126. stewartb says:

      yesindyref2 @ 10:07 pm

      You wrote: “Basically Austerity is a busted flush, and reduces and weakens the economy.”

      Yes. And as I noted here @ 7.15pm, considered also to have been UNNECESSARY by even a Tory right winger like John Redwood MP! But what a cost to vulnerable individuals and to society – what a cost to the economy – what an opportunity cost to Scotland!!

    127. Ian Foulds says:

      How do we know the UK figures are not inflated, their allocation is anywhere near accurate (16% of population holds 58% of the debt, apparently) and, how many deals are done by UK to receive extra income e.g. Trident possibly being partly paid by Europe, NATO or whoever?

    128. dakk says:

      What an insincere and vacuuous piece of political rhetoric that was from Labour british nationalist Corbyn.

      Very poor and uninspiring stuff.

      Anyone who believes Corbyn would probably believe in Michelle Mone’s crypto scam.

      Britnats.Wha’s like them?

    129. Jock McDonnell says:

      Fatty Toodle-oo the noo there displaying the objectivity of which the BBC is famed – ‘do you think there will be a cry for a referendum soon – no, me neither’

      Aye, right.

    130. Robert Peffers says:

      @Shinty says: 22 August, 2018 at 7:28 pm:

      ” … Remember the chart from 1900 to 1921 showing Scotland’s revenue & expenditure and the vast sums being retained by the Treasury for ‘imperial services’.
      eg. 1920 – 1921
      Revenue contributed by Scotland £119,753,000
      Expediture on Scottish Services £33,096,000
      ______________
      Balance retained in London £86,657,000
      for ‘ imperial services’
      (dispersed in England)
      Sorry don’t know how to link to a picture of the report.
      The treasury stopped producing this report (as they were clearly robbing us blind)”

      —————–
      Ah! Shinty, you do not need to search too far for those figures as the Rev Stu has the article archived.

      If you look at the very top on any Wings page there is a thick black bar running right across each page. It has links in white lettering and under, “Reference”, you will find the information you want to reference.

      Now, if you click on “Reference”, and find the article you can go to the top of whatever browser you are using and there will be the address of the page you are reading in the browser’s address bar – in this case it will be:-

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-historical-debt/

      And all the references Rev Stu has save there for, Err! reference will do the same for whatever the reference is.

      Just to make thing crystal clear, if you want to give a link to any browser page you find, not just the Rev Stu’s references, that you want to quote on Wings then go to the browser address bar – draw your cursor along the address and that will highlight it – now press the “ctrl” key and the “C” key together on your keyboard and that will copy the address to your clipboard – now place your cursor where you want the link to appear and press the “ctrl” key and the “V” key together and the address will be pasted from your clipboard into your comment. Note that the clipboard is not seen but it is there in the background all the time.

      However, also bear in mind that if the link is a YouTube address there is a glitch in Wings that will not let you link to a full YouTube address.

      So for YouTube addresses ONLY – you first paste it where you want it in your comment. Then you highlight the beginning of the address from BEFORE the WWW. bit to the left.

      Now you press your “delete” key to remove the leftmost bit of the address.

      Your YouTube address link will be restored correctly when the comment appears on Wings.

      Yes I know it is complicated to explain, but after doing it once or twice, you will find it very easy to actually do.

      Hope I’ve explained it clearly enough and it helps.

    131. Clootie says:

      I’m stunned…it turns out we are too poor!
      I never seen that coming.

      It also appears our NHS is shit.
      Education is failing.
      Etc etc

      OR…it could be manipulated data pushed by a biased media!

      I suspect the latter case to be true.

    132. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 22:07,

      Well, one thing’s for sure, the GERS thing is not going to go away come IR2 just because some people in the yes movement (rightly or wrongly) claim it’s pish.

      And the SG apparently believes in it, whatever its flaws.

      However, it seems to me that ordinary people won’t be converted by bandying figures about. The BBC just love to get on that tack, and no wonder.

      Fair enough to have the kind of in-depth discussions that happen on forums such as this. They have their place. However, come a referendum, I suggest that what would be far more digestible for the ordinary person would be a group of trustworthy neutral (non-UK) economists – and not the hidden-agenda promoters the BBC love to trot out – declaring after careful analysis that the Scottish economy is basically sound and could sustain independence.

      Come the day, reassurance is what ordinary people will need most, not indigestible fine detail.

    133. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 22:25,

      (This current delay in the appearance of postings is a bit of a pain at times. It’s rather like trying to have a radio conversation with someone on Mars!)

      We seem to agree that some kind of coherent and convincing response to the question of economic sufficiency will be required, and GERS can’t simply be summarily dismissed.

      But our eventual response has to be digestible, and like all big issues, needs reframing to suit, however it’s best done.

    134. yesindyref2 says:

      @RJS
      “And the SG apparently believes in it, whatever its flaws.”

      I don’t think they have any choice. There is continual work to improve it year by year, but if the detailed data isn’t there – like perhaps where exactly all that “spending on behalf of Scotland” is geographically located, then there’s little they can do.

      See that David Comerford blog where he claims large amounts of defence spengding IN Scotland. It might be allocated to companies IN Scotland, but where for instance do they actually sub-contract the work to, where for a company with mutliple locations is the work done, how many of the Vanguard crews and their families actually live in Scotland, considering a boat is kept out on patrol for 3 months, and there’s a standby one, plus I’ve seen on marinetraffic AIS, one down at Devonpoprt?

      In fact Comerford of FoAI making such a guesstimate, is as bad as my one above, it’s based on off the top of the head figures, NOT detailed analysis of the economic benefit of spending. Why? because it just ain’t done at all “region” by “region”. Even the HMRC disaggregated tables don’t do that.

      As far as numerical answers to punters go though, one set of mind-numbing statistics has an equal and opposite effect to the other side’s mind-numbing statistics. They cancel out. Whereas “it’s crap”, leaves the other side’s figures unopposed and their conclusion therefore stands “Scotland is crap”.

    135. Dr Jim says:

      Grandmaster Davie Clegg of the Daily Record says because of the GERS figures the case for Independence is weaker now than it was in 2014 but the Unionists shouldn’t be so smug about Scotland being broke

      That’s as clever as the worshipful Davie Clegg could get about the yearly invented set of numbers that Scotland gets thrown at it in order to keep us compliantly obedient to the English government who created a situation that no other part of the English region is counted by

      If every block of 5 million people throughout the UK was measured in this way it would be rather noticable that Scotland would come out as the second most prosperous *region* of the UK, London being first by virtue of all of the UKs finances being directed towards London for that very purpose

      If you accept (I don’t) the English premise that Scotland is only a region then you would still have to admit given that geographically scotland being 32.000 square miles of a *region* it’s in fact held back enormously by being constrained within a fiscal system where Scotland cannot have access to all of its finances and assets and recources so rather than Scotland being a burden on England, England are deliberately holding Scotland back from progression given that they admit that oil revenues have supported the entire UK for decades and if those oil revenues were Scotlands alone Scotland would and could be in exactly the same position as Norway was when they discovered oil and since have gone on to have a Trillion dollars in the bank and still run their economy without using it all

      That’s why billionaire oil tycoon Sir Ian Wood appears on our Telly screens to tell us the oil’s running out a week on Tuesday whenever there’s talk of Independence for Scotland and if you’re not sensible enough to have worked that out by now you should be checking yourself into care and denying yourself the right to vote because you’re either seriously dense or have a psychiatric disorder and require medical intervention

      Or you’re a British Nationalist for which I’m sorry there’s no medicine for what you’ve got, but the Tories might give you a barcode on the back of your head

    136. Cubby says:

      Stewartb@8.55

      “It does our case no good to simply dismiss all of it as propaganda”

      Obviously, I have been spending too much time with my head in sand. Care to enlighten me as to what is propaganda and what is not propaganda in GERS and what percentage of GERS being propaganda is allowable for the whole not to be deemed propaganda.

      How does the Scottish government have a deficit? Silly old me used to think that only independent countries could have a deficit but some people seem to think that it is ok for the UK to borrow and spend the money on its own choices but allocate the spend to Scotland and then claim a deficit for Scotland.

      GERS is mince. GERS is Britnat propaganda. If you accept that Scotland has a deficit you accept a colonial status for Scotland. You accept an imposed deficit. You accept a scam. Accept GERS and you are playing their game.

    137. Cubby says:

      Yesindyref2 @9.45

      Offensive post.

    138. Thepnr says:

      O/T Tomorrow will see the release of 20 of the planned 84 “technical notices” at will tell us all how to deal with a No Deal.

      This should be good as there is no way to properely deal with a No deal if you don’t live up to what that means in reality.

      This seems to be the approach that Brexit Secretary Dominic Raab is taking with his planned speech on the release of these papers tomorrow.

      Summary is that it’s all the EU’s fault and nothing to do with me.

      http://archive.fo/rD0UF

    139. Cubby says:

      R J SUTHERLAND 10.50pm

      “Some people in the yes movement (rightly or wrongly) claim it’s pish.

      Rightly or wrongly??????????who are these people in the yes movement who think it is correct to say that Scotland or the Scottish gov has run up an annual deficit of £13.5 Billion. I’m beginning to think there are more sly Britnat trolls on this site than is immediately apparent.

      I have never said you should just say to someone it is mince and that is the end of the matter. GERS is easily debunked and in simple non economic terms. It does not need any acceptance of the basic premise in GERS that Scotland has a deficit. I am astonished that some independence supporters are being taken in by the propaganda – that is of course assuming they are genuine independence supporters.

    140. yesindyref2 says:

      @Cubby @7.39pm
      Offensive post

      You can dish it out, but you can’t take it.

    141. yesindyref2 says:

      @RJS
      The irony is that this GERS isn’t just fine, it’s excellent in one way at least. And that’s the SGC report. Unionists have been claiming the figures are optimistic, however this GERS proves that they’re actually pessimisitic already, as they had the deficit for 2017-18 at either 8.5% or 8.3%, not the 7.9% which the deficit actually is:

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/16591717.first-minister-says-scotland-has-more-than-paid-its-way-as-gers-figures-released/

      I hope I’m not stealing Andrew Wilson’s thunder, but it’s already gone some way to discrediting the likes of the dogfood salesman who should stick to what he knows best. It could be that the GCR is a bit of a trap, part-sprung already.

    142. Danny says:

      Repeat after me:

      GERS deficit will be paid for by leasing Faslane to the English after we become an Independent Nation for the grand sum of £15 Billion pounds a year, sorted.

      And if they accuse you of talking pish then simply reply “Well you fucking started it”.

      End conversation with bitter BritNat.

    143. Cubby says:

      Yesindyref2 @11.10pm

      One set of mind numbing stats or crap is your own opinion of the choice open to anyone when debunking GERS. Is that it ? Is that the best you are saying we can do. A score draw or an assumption Scotland is crap.

      It’s your analyses that are crap. It’s your talk about all these details that will lose people. Assuming of course you actually want to debunk GERS in the first place. GERS Can be debunked in straightforward easy to understand terms. I just think that you do not want to go down that road.

      I have noticed that you are regularly offensive to people on Wings. If you are a sly Britnat troll just pissoff. If you are not try showing some basic manners.

    144. yesindyref2 says:

      @Cubby
      Sorry, I meant your 7.27pm one:

      GERS is Britnat propaganda full stop. You are promoting it – leaves you open to being thought of as misguided or a sneaky Britnat troll.

      The same to you with bells on, sweetie pops.

    145. Liz g says:

      Cubby @ 12.08
      I’d be one of those people Cubby, the minute someone ( even Nicola) starts quoting numbers at me I switch off.
      I want the conclusion, the explanation,the allegory!!
      EG. I don’t need the graphs that show all the year’s we got Tories when we didn’t vote for them… I just ask why we got Thatcher running Scotland while voting Labour all those year’s??
      But that’s me Cubby and mibbi even you.
      Nevertheless, some people need the numbers,and,if we are to believe auld & kiddin oan hes no bald Andra Neil its apparently important.
      I don’t see it myself but I don’t want the Indy movement/ Wingers caught out by lookin like we don’t understand those figures, never mind being able to debunk them.
      So in that respect… all respect… to those who take the time and trouble to post the information..
      Give us the one liners,the quick response by all means,but leave those who can!!! To do their bit too..
      IMHO It would be fair to say “there’s no such thing as an unhelpful truth and only an untrue post need be criticised” don’t ye think?

    146. Cubby says:

      Yesindyref2 12.25am

      I thought you were an adult independence supporter. I think I was mistaken. Childish comments.

    147. Breeks says:

      OT

      Whereabouts do I access the SNP’s Rebuttal Service announced by Keith Brown last week?

      The National said it was launched, but it’s profile is pretty dismal if that’s true..

    148. yesindyref2 says:

      LOL 🙂

      That’s funny Danny.

    149. Cubby says:

      Yesindyref2 @12.16am

      “GERS isn’t just fine its excellent in one way at least”

      ” not the 7.9% which the deficit actually is”

      Your comments are promoting the GERS report and the propaganda that there is a deficit. Seems to me to be sly Britnat promotion of GERS and the fact that there is a deficit.

      When and where did the Scottish government borrow this £13.5 b and on what did they spend it?

    150. yesindyref2 says:

      @Breeks
      https://twitter.com/theSNPMedia

      There’s still just the one tweet there, maybe they’re taking suggestions and will provide links to more info in later tweets.

      ——-

      Apart from that “notional” deficit.

    151. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Cubby @ 00:08,

      Well, you can bluster all you like on here, but an intemperate dismissal is not going to cut much ice with a financially-nervous public when the subject is brought up for debate in IR2 by the opposition. As it will.

      You also seem to have missed the fact that the SG stand by GERS, for all its evident difficulties. Maybe it’s the best they have, and a poor best, but still.

      (Or maybe they’re all BritNat stooges too?)

      I made one suggestion of how to counter GERS, for good reason, but that, and my own mentioned reservations, seem to have entirely escaped you in your haste to “exterminate, exterminate“…

      And for a relative unknown you’re also very handy with personal insinuations all over the place. Something which we don’t do lightly. Which might give regulars cause to wonder what you’re really about…

    152. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2 @ 1.26
      Is it only going to be a Twitter thing..dae ye know?

    153. yesindyref2 says:

      @Liz g
      Don’t know. In the article in the National it was launched in, several below the line posters suggested it would need links to backing material, otherwise it’s just a tweet saying “this is wrong”. I agree, it needs to be supported otherwise it’s just an assertion, same as the original misinformation.

      @RJS
      Same MO as Danny, RN, and several previous alter egos. Not very good at its job!

      Attacks on me increased after I started posting extracts from this:

      https://web.archive.org/web/20140115000332/http://cryptome.org/2012/07/gent-forum-spies.htm

      I wonder why?

      Still, I’m highly flattered to be so singled out, and so should you 🙂

      Ultimately the answer is that everyone reads the guide in the link, adapts it, and pays attention. The first step is for everyone to remember at least a little what the “names” posted previously.

    154. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2 @1.51
      That’s where I fall down… it’s no alcohol that’s ma problem (a la Danny boy.. lol ) it’s ma memory fur names!!
      I always try to post genuinely then they get me..
      But I must admit… the insults.. I struggle tae care..
      I know everyone says that but I’m sure you’ll agree, they are fecken amitures.. we’re no in High School here… which, if we were,I’m sure you’ll agree
      I’d be able to be sure I’d spelled amitures right… LOL
      Anyhoo… stay the course Yesindyref2 …

    155. yesindyref2 says:

      @Liz g
      It’s all good practice, happens to me in other forums too. It’s also good practice in keep the heid, and I need that as I’ve been getting a bit wild.

      Ah well, time to drink my tea and eat my unionist Tunnock’s teacake 🙂 No UJ on it thank goodness. Then back to work.

    156. Cactus says:

      Good discussion on this thread and a big cheers also to Juan & Liz g x for your latest comments on “The Cereal Offenders”. Yee’s are daein’ a grand job, sock it to em! 🙂

      *****
      Wouldn’t you at least like to hear both sides of the story?

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/
      https://wildernessofpeace.wordpress.com/
      http://www.thenational.scot/

      What’s on?:
      https://united4yes.org/event/edinburgh-auob-march-for-independence/
      *****

      Choose yer channels…

    157. Shinty says:

      Robert Peffers – thanks, I’d forgotten about the Wings archives.

      (I had the info stored as a picture, think I picked it up from Munguin’s Republic some years back)

    158. ScottieDog says:

      @yesindyref2
      I believe we need to be probing undecideds and no voters with questions like
      “So that tax money that supposedly funds the economy, where do you think it comes from?”

      It has to be issued and spent into the economy before it can become tax money.

      We need to be looking at the U.K. balance sheet. You can’t look at GERS in isolation. It’s an absolute travesty.

      Look,at the balance sheet in 2006, then look again in 2009. The finance establishment is funded its not funding anything.

      That’s not too difficult to explain when the graphics are available.

    159. Jim Morris says:

      Few. Many. Everyone.
      Tory blue. Tory red. SNP.
      Take your pick.

    160. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      @ Yesindyref2

      If Stu can’t back up your shitslinging paranoia with IP address proof, don’t drop my username again when I haven’t rattled your cage. Unless you’d like a knitting needle through your tear duct.

    161. Breeks says:


      yesindyref2 says:
      23 August, 2018 at 1:51 am
      @Liz g
      Don’t know. In the article in the National it was launched in, several below the line posters suggested it would need links to backing material, otherwise it’s just a tweet saying “this is wrong”. I agree, it needs to be supported otherwise it’s just an assertion, same as the original misinformation.

      For perspective… It’s GERS day, the last GERS day before Scotland must fight the Constitutional battle for its life and defeat our subjugation over Europe. The Rebuttal Service was only launched last week, and it should be buzzing!!!

      Let me guess… it’s on hold until we know the full details of Brexit. Sigh…

      Meanwhile the real rebuttal service goes on as it always has, with LizG on fine form last thread, Robert Peffers and of course Rev Stu fighting Scotland’s corner across the whole spectrum from the Constitution to the lies and propaganda, then there is Wee Ginger Dug … a thankless daily chore by honest to God patriots that is rarely even acknowledged by the sleeping SNP giant which is scheduled to wake up in October, swear fire and brimstone and sweep us all to victory. Aye. I’ll believe it when I see it.

      October is just around the corner, finally, but far from enthused and impatient, champin’ at the bit to get on with this and get it done, I’m actually lying awake at night heart sick and disillusioned that all we can expect from October is yet another limp and timid excuse for doing nothing, yet another bout of wait-and-see procrastination with our dormant “leadership” still afraid to even borrow some initiative…

      I can count the hours and days to October. I can count the hours and days to Brexit. Independence? I don’t even know where we begin.

      Independence? I don’t even know if the path is still via Referendum, (Referenda for Indy, Europe, or both), Constitutional Test Case, breached Treaty of Union dissolved, or the simple toss of a coin of Scottish currency. I don’t even know if we’re fighting to prevent our expulsion from Europe or already fighting a rearguard campaign that is only due to begin after Europe has been lost.

      Can somebody from SNP HQ confirm or deny whether we’re taking strategic advice from anybody in white robes and answering to the name “Saruman”?

      Time? What time do you think we have?

    162. Robert Peffers says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says: 22 August, 2018 at 10:50 pm:

      ” … Well, one thing’s for sure, the GERS thing is not going to go away come IR2 just because some people in the yes movement (rightly or wrongly) claim it’s pish.”

      Strange that you have doubts that it is anything other than pish, Robert. After all it doesn’t take too much effort to see the great big flaws in even the concept of GERS Figures. It is, without the slightest doubt, a set of estimated figures. Virtually no hard figures are included anywhere in the entire document.

      ” … And the SG apparently believes in it, whatever its flaws.”

      From where did you obtain that particular bit of fake evidence?

      The SG is constrained in its usage of the figures, if for no other reason that the Westminster Treasury releases no other figures. Why not provide your hard evidence for your insinuation? Furthermore, why not explain for everyone your propensity to blame the SG/SNP for the sins of Westminster?

      What is even more is that the next part of your comment is laughable for although there are those on Wings who do dive in at the deep end and quote reams of useless estimated figures to rival the treasury pish they are of the exact same type – estimates of estimates of imagined figures.

      What makes the GERS figures utter pish is the way Westminster does the United Kingdoms accounts for in fact there is no actual United Kingdom as described in the Treaty of Union. That is a United Kingdom composed of two, equally Sovereign, partner kingdoms.

      Westminster treats the Kingdom of Scotland as just another of its British dominions that England, (the country – not the kingdom), treats as its British Dominions.

      Thus we have a whole catalogue of figures that do not reflect the truth. For example the much published claptrap that Scotland’s economy is dependent upon North Sea revenues.

      It matters not a jot what the price of oil & gas happens to be at any time not what the rate of extraction from both the North Sea and the West of Shetland happens to be at any particular moment. The truth being that not one penny of the revenues comes to the Scottish economy – it is falsely accounted as being extracted from United Kingdom, “Extra Regio”, territory and is thus accounted as United Kingdom (a.k.a. English), earned revenue and then made even more idiotic by Westminster allocating, (but only for estimated accountancy figures), that 1n 8.4% of it is Scotland’s share – except no actual share is given to Scotland even as up to 98% of the revenues come out of Scottish territorial waters.

      GERS was invented by a Tory Government with the express uel intention to defraud Scotland and to convince Scottish voters that Scotland was too wee, too poor and too bloody stupid and it worked on people like you. BTW: the communications proving the intentions of the Tories is in the public domain.

      Your SNP BAAAAD! slip is showing again, Robert. Tell us all who, if not the SNP will ever gain a return to Scottish independence. Straight question there – what is your answer?

    163. Phronesis says:

      Hard cheese- a concise and easy to follow summary of Brexit consequences for an industry and associated difficulties for supply chains. The principles apply to all commerce that relies on frictionless trade.

      ‘Overall, we find that in the absence of frictionless trade and appropriate government policy to address skill shortages, Brexit is likely to have a negative effect on consumers through higher prices for dairy products. This pinch will be exacerbated by the fact that Brexit-related inflationary pressures and uncertainty have already cost the average household approximately £1,270 – and projections suggest that post-Brexit, increasing trade costs could result in further losses’

      http://thedairytimes.com/hard-cheese-dairy-products-will-expensive-uk-brexit/

      ‘The government’s proposal not to maintain the fundamental rights charter means that after Brexit it will not be possible for a UK judge to use article 35 or other charter rights when interpreting UK laws that have derived from the EU…

      These include laws to protect public health such as on pesticide residues in food, health and safety at work, management and disposal of hazardous substances, regulation of medicinal products, and air and water quality’

      http://www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/brexits-great-repeal-bill-will-axe-the-right-to-health-warn-experts/

      No food, no health care, no rights- not what Scotland voted for.

    164. Ken500 says:

      Clegg is a total liar. Another one who will need a unionist post as the DR sinks even further.

      The Scottish economy is being totally mismanaged by Westminster unionists. Thatcher, BlairGriwn etc.

      Scotland maintains it’s public services. They are appalling in the rest of the UK. Private companies running them into the ground. Kept off the public books but twice as costly. Carillion etc. ‘A ponzi scheme’. The NHS/education in the rest of the UK falling to bits. They are borrowing £Billions from the Chinese. Hinkley Point and HS2. A total waste of money with much better cheaper, cleaner alternatives. PPI schemes which damage the Scottish economy but Scotland has to pay off the debt. They are spending £10Billion pro rata more in the rest of the UK. There is no surplus. They are just increasing the debt.

      Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Cost Scotland dear. The Tories have ruined the Oil & Gas sector. Ruined the fishing industry. Illegally and secretly taken £Billions from Scotland over the years. Wetminster is a total disgrace.

      The GERS figures are just a pack of lies. At least they give some indication of what Scotland raises. Kept hidden before. £60Billion. (and the rest) A £6Billion increase. Yet Scotland is supposed to have a deficit.

      Scotland spends £30Billion block grant. Pays all (UK) Gov pensions & benefits. Pays £Billions in loan repayments no borrowed or spent in Scotland. Trident. Defence. Loses money on tax evasion. Gets the lowest CAP in the EU as part of the UK. Loses EU grants and investment.

      A total con. Scotland should be one of the wealthiest, equal, fair and prosperous countries in the planet. Without Westminster grotesque interference. Why do they keep on hanging on? The Brexit shambles. An absolute disgrace,

    165. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      All looking for the provision in The Scotland Act 1998 which states that Scotland must balance its accounts ever year and cannot have a deficit.

    166. Ken500 says:

      Go on the Scottish Gov website for the GERS figures. It is all there in a table.

      The UK Gov website. Has Oil taxes. Tax Revenues raised in a table.

      They can be found in five minutes. The information.

    167. Cubby says:

      R J Sutherland @1.36 am

      I repeat what I have said in previous posts I am not advocating JUST saying GERS is pish even though it is. My point is you do not need to accept that Scotland has a deficit to debunk GERS. How can Scotland which is not independent have a deficit. Scotland does not control the monies allocated to it as having been spent on behalf of Scotland. It is just rubbish to say Scotland has a deficit.

      Only an independent Scotland can have a deficit or surplus because it will be a Scottish government that makes all the income and expenditure decisions.

      By agreeing there is a deficit it is accepting the Britnat propaganda that we are to poor to be independent.

    168. Ken500 says:

      It was the SNP/ Alex Salmond who exposed the McCrone Report fraud. Hidden by Westminster. The SNP and others have been exposing the figures and mismanagement for years. UK civil servants are sworn to secrecy. They have to sign the Official Secrets Act. Iraq, Dunblane, Lockerbie kept secret for 100 years.

    169. yesindyref2 says:

      @Rev
      Posting at 6:59
      Will I report it to Police Scotland, or will you?

      Remember: If it’s illegal offline it is illegal online.

      This includes posting anything that promotes crime, violence or drug misuse. This also includes threats made against you, . . .

      http://www.scotland.police.uk/keep-safe/keep-secure-online/

    170. Macart says:

      @Nana

      Never been so glad to see your links Nana.

      I’m happily going to spend my breakfast, then my break and probably my lunchtime reading through them. 🙂

    171. admiral says:

      GERS – the simple answer to this is that, if true, it is a shocking indictment of Westminster’s criminal fiscal and economic mismanagement and political negligence of Scotland. There is absolutely no reason in the fundamentals of economic resources, education, creativity, inventiveness, skill and talent for Scotland to be other than an extremely successful country.

      Equally, the simple answer to the “can’t afford to be independent” nonsensical argument is that GERS proves conclusively that we can’t afford to NOT be independent, given the utter mess that Westminster is manifestly making of Scotland’s economy.

    172. Cubby says:

      R J Sutherland@1.36 am

      What am I all about?

      Well I pointed out that by accepting the GERS deficit you are implicitly accepting the Britnat propaganda that we are too poor to be independent. That does not seem to be a good thing if you support independence. You also stated that some independence supporters do not think GERS is pish. I asked you who. You seemed to reply that the SNP/ Scotgov agree that Scotland has a £13.5B deficit. Really? Yesindyref2 says it is a good thing that it is down from previous higher figs. This all supports the Britnat propaganda. My comments do not support the Britnat propaganda.

      In summary, if you do not want people like me wondering why you make statements that support Britnat propaganda just don’t make such statements.

    173. Ken500 says:

      The UK Gov accounting system is fraudulent. If it was a private or public company employing these methods. They would be put in jail. Leaving out borrowings. Classed as investment. Leaving Defence spending off the balance sheet. Putting in cover for any deficit as growth? which never happens. A dogs mess of incompetence. Sanctioning and starving people. Tax evasion. Maiming and killing people the world over. Supporting apartheid States and absolute despot monarchies. Johnston going on about burkas. Yet supporting Saudi Arabia. They are going to behead an activist woman. What an absolute disgrace.

      The Westminster Gov is incompetent and corrupt.

    174. Ken500 says:

      Scotland VAT revenues are also under accounted. Have been for years. Estimated.

      Thank goodness for the SNP Gov standing up for Scotland. Doing a good job.

      Pity about the unionist councils borrowing, spending and wasting. Not protecting essential services. Typical.

    175. Nana says:

      @Macart 🙂

      Never mind Sam lots of reading material from the government being released at 11.30, Brexit papers covering nuclear safeguards, charities, state aid etc.
      I’m sure they’ll be riveting 🙁

      In the meantime

      Always good to repeat this
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rp2XS1nbvA

      The Secret Figures Behind North Sea Oil
      http://platformlondon.org/scotland/

      and a couple of articles on Trump

      https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-manaforts-conviction-is-first-step-to-strengthening-the-rule-of-law/

      https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/08/22/trump-was-winning-until-tuesday-219377

    176. Congrats to Susan Aitkin this morning on GMS. She didn’t cave in to the nagging interviewer who ignored her answers. Not quite as slavering mad as Gillian M.

    177. call me dave says:

      Jings! Did you hear Susan Aitken being harangued on GMS radio shortbread about the settlement for the women’s pension dispute.

      Hardly got a word in without being constantly interupted with demands for costs and what assets the Glasgow Council will have to sell off.

      It was actually worse than the Raytheon debacle. 🙁

      PS:
      Jeremy wants a tax on tech companies to fund the failing local newspaper organisations.

    178. Robert Louis says:

      O/T

      Today in The National, Lesley Riddoch makes some good points, but THIS is most important. Why is the SNP leadership so freaking reluctant to even mention independence?? It just will not do anymore. It is time to start speaking up.

      From Lesley’s piece;

      “..Since BBC balance relies so heavily on political parties, the SNP’s unwillingness to even mention the “I” word is doubly problematic. Right now, the chaos of Brexit has disillusioned and disorientated many previous supporters of the Union. Yet without a chink of light showing through the gloom, they have nothing to walk towards. No alternative future to embrace or consider.

      That’s a miss by the SNP. The recent history of our neighbours shows that moments of disruption can be very productive for small nations. Finland became independent 100 years ago in the wake of the Russian Revolution. Iceland declared independence in 1944 when “motherland” Denmark was occupied by the Germans. Of course, Scotland will take its own path. But we cannot have a good crisis unless the present period of uncertainty also contains clear visions of a better future along a different path.

      Part of the reason Aunty fails to keep independence as a constant strand in its thinking is that the party created to achieve that goal rarely mentions it.”

      Thank heavens more people on the indy side are starting to point this out.

      Source : http://www.thenational.scot/comment/columnists/16592770.snp-arent-helping-with-the-bbcs-problem-of-properly-representing-scotland/

    179. Colin Alexander says:

      @Robert Peffers

      If there is no indyref announced within the term of this parliament; or one is announced and the UK Govt says No, and the Scot Govt accept that,

      And if there is no SNP return to the straight electoral manifesto to declare independence with the election of a majority of SNP MPs in Scotland, at the next general election,

      I expect an AUOB or YES movement to lead Scotland to independence. A movement who would be non-political in all other respects and will have one policy only: independence for Scotland.

      They would not attend Westminster or Westminster’s devolution parliament, if elected – except to declare Scotland is no longer a signatory to the Union, effectively dissolving the political Union.

      When asked about policies (apart from indy) the answer would always be the same: That would be a democratic decision for the sovereign people of Scotland when we have decided on independence.

    180. winifred mccartney says:

      Another harrying interview/inquisition on GMS this morning with Susan Aitken, leader of GCC. Snp doing the right thing and trying to redress the disgraceful treatment of Women by Labour when they ran GCC for years and refused to pay women equal pay and took them through every court in the land to avoid paying it.

      Now we have snp’s Susan Aitken being harried, interrupted – the usual bbc snp attitude while in the meantime the tories have still not been questioned about the ‘dark money’ or RD’s lies about tory councillors apologies, which she said he made, and he said he did not, the courses which they were ‘doing as we speak’ which was not true. One rule for snp and another for the tories and this becomes more obvious every day – the bbc is the voice of WM – it is their job to misrepresent scotland at every turn and make sure the airwaves are filled with their anti-snp bile and lies every day of the week and if they can’t find anything just resurrect an old story and run with it. Must be due for another baby box outing or labour telling SG to ban mesh implants which they know the SG cannot do but no one from the bbc informs us this is the case.

    181. Robert Peffers says:

      @Breeks says: 23 August, 2018 at 7:21 am:

      ” … Meanwhile the real rebuttal service goes on as it always has, with LizG on fine form last thread, Robert Peffers and of course Rev Stu fighting Scotland’s corner across the whole spectrum from the Constitution to the lies and propaganda, then there is Wee Ginger Dug … a thankless daily chore by honest to God patriots that is rarely even acknowledged by the sleeping SNP giant which is scheduled to wake up in October, swear fire and brimstone and sweep us all to victory.”

      Oh! Here we go again with yet another SNP/SG BAAAD! rant from Breeks. This thread is full of such rants but none of them can come close to the truth. I’ve posted it often enough but these anti-SNP/SG people don’t want to believe the truth they want to believe the SNP/SG are BAAAAD!

      Ask yourselves why that might be.

      The truth is that the SNP is not the SG but the SG is the SNP.

      Yeah! Sounds daft, doesn’t it? But it isn’t.

      The SNP is a political party like no other, (at least in the United Kingdom). The SNP is not led from the top down and most certainly not by the elected to the parliament or council people in government.

      The SNP is led from the bottom up. Policy can only be made by the rank & file memberships delegates they send to National conference. Not even Nicola Sturgeon, (or her cabinet), can make or change the party policies.

      Nicola Sturgeon knows this and will not make moves without having a mandate from the party rank & file but that is not just how far it goes. Nicola has shown that on matters that legally rest in the hands of the legally sovereign people of Scotland she will only act if she has a mandate from a majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland. The fact being she has been given that mandate and shows every sign of respecting it.

      And that is more than these commenters on Wings do when they post their anti-Nicola, anti-SNP, anti-Scottish Government attacks here on Wings and on any other medium they have access to. Just what is their objective? No other political party has shown any signs of effectively gaining Scottish independence. Thus anti-SNP comments are a hindrance to the ultimate goal – Scottish independence.

      Now I have from time to time allowed my party membership to lapse but that doesn’t mean I let my whole hearted support lapse. I also know many other indy supporters who have never been an SNP member but whole heatedly support the SG/SNP.

      The constant Drip! Drip! Drip! of these detractors of the SG/SNP are always counter productive and I say, to any one of them who claims otherwise, If you want to influence the way the SNP/SG is doing things then the way to do so is not on open forums where the unionists will be so very glad to see your constant work on their behalf.

      The way to exert the influence you claim you sincerely say you wish to assert is to join an SNP branch and use your influence there to change party policies. You will achieve nothing but derision for your views, and perhaps a loss of actual support for independence by readers of your anti-independence views on such as Wings. Unless, of course, that is your real hidden agenda.

    182. Fred says:

      Wee Ginger Dug, good on Gers!

    183. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      admiral at 8.24

      Very excellent post. The case in a nutshell.

      GERS are a mostly estimated illustration of a Scotland, without the powers and the choices of how to run its economy, trapped in a failing and almost bankrupt UK.

    184. yesindyref2 says:

      @Rev
      I’ve thought about it, and made a report, sorry for the possible inconvenience it might cause you.

    185. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      I am not hugely concerned about GERS

      Anybody who believes in an independent Scotland does so as they understand completely we would run things differently which is why we have to be independent. This as a growing factor and GERS reinforces this.

      This is the “Scotland trapped in a failing UK” position.
      Hit them with the UK’s £2,000,000,000,000 national debt.

    186. Les Wilson says:

      Gers and the reported debts of Scotland are a fabrication by the British state in order to keep Scotland poor. They like us that way, indeed need us that way, for being poor keeps us controllable.
      In my mind it criminal and the Westminster government alone is responsible for it. They work for their own ends, and without a thought of Scotland.

      Indeed the whole idea of pooling and sharing, is one of the biggest con tricks of our time,the manipulation of all this has a direct effect on Gers. The whole thing is constructed to enable manipulation of these constructs to enhance the needs and wants of England.
      The Celtic nation can eat gruel, and still pay a huge price when having it.

      The UK is a dead man walking, there is no way back for them. Scotland can and will prosper as an Independent state. They are so deep in the swamp they cannot extract themselves.
      Fortunately we can, if we act soon.

    187. Cubby says:

      Indyref2 @ 9.31am @8.21

      Looks like you are the one who likes to dish out offensive comments but cannot take it. Not me as you said in another post. I’m not the one running off complaining to the authorities.

      You have a regular pattern of abusing people when they point out something you disagree with. Then complaining if you get robust comments back.

    188. Ken500 says:

      The Greens will muck up Independence. The most unpopular Party with the most unpopular policies. A pressure group. Doing the unionists work for them. Going on about currency etc. Just another diversion. It can’t be changed for a while. The Scottish public want to keep it for a while. The Irish Republic did with high growth. Pegged the punt to the pound. They do not have Scotland’s resources. IR joined the Euro zone in 1998.

      The Greens against the Oil & Gas industry. It would have to be imported on a balanced economy for a while. Yet going on about Norway. The sovereign fund makes money from less wealthy counties.

      A land tax would help the landowners who mortgage the land to the bank for income. The price of land would go up and affect house building etc. Scotland has a ‘right to roam’. Anyone can buy land £5000 a acre (mortgage) and put a hut on it. They don’t need to. For a small outlay they can roam where they want, within reason. The Crown estate are already being transferred to local communities. More land has been brought back into public use than was taken. With buy outs.

      The Greens wasting money blocking roads, airport expansion and development. Wasting £Billions. In the landowner’s pockets. Funded by them.

    189. galamcennalath says:

      GERS highlights something else – UK and England finances are merged. The devolved nations get budgets to cover some of their expenditure, but England gets no such budget, it just dips into the UK pot.

      Same with collection of taxes. Some are identifiable as ‘from Scotland’ but others are just UK/England.

      This book keeping opens the door to a mass of subterfuge and misappropriation.

      Scotland is allocated expenditure of £3,666 million debt interest. Proper historical accounts would have shown the debt isn’t ours!

      And allocated £1,536 million expenditure for ‘Public and common services’. What is that supposed to be?

    190. Breeks says:


      Robert Peffers says:
      23 August, 2018 at 9:11 am
      @Breeks says: 23 August, 2018 at 7:21 am:

      Oh! Here we go again with yet another SNP/SG BAAAD! rant from Breeks. This thread is full of such rants but none of them can come close to the truth. I’ve posted it often enough but these anti-SNP/SG people don’t want to believe the truth they want to believe the SNP/SG are BAAAAD!

      Ask yourselves why that might be…

      Yes Robert. I wish you actually would ask yourself why that might be.

      The SNP has obviously given you much greater cause to believe in them than they have ever given me. Let’s just see what October brings eh?

    191. Danny says:

      yesindyref2 1.51am

      Can you explain this sentence you posted please:

      “Same MO as Danny, RN, and several previous alter egos…”

      What does “MO ” stand for?

      I hope it means something nice.

      yesindyref2, you seem to be at the centre of every stooshie that takes place on Wings.

      I suppose being an “English Plant” you have to disrupt as much as possible.

    192. galamcennalath says:

      Brexit. Just considering the whole idea of a No Deal Brexit.

      The UK has given notice of leaving the EU. Part of that process is to fulfil outstanding commitments. The ‘Deal’ on everyone’s lips is the Withdrawal Agreement – a binding treaty settling those obligations.

      Choosing to renege on responsibilities and walk away is a gross dereliction of duty, immoral and underhand.

      It’s a case of signing up to what must be signed up to. It may be unpalatable to some of the über English Nationalists, however even they have to accept they are an integral part of the fabric of international affairs, relationships, and rules.

      How could any government contemplate such a move? Living up to the perfidious Albion label!

      No Deal is not a BrEXIT at all, it’s a midnight flit.

    193. 713 years ago William Wallace was brutally executed/murdered by the English,

      tortured,hung till near death,cut open disemboweled,bones broken,beheaded,then his arms and legs were chopped off,

      his head was set on a spike as a warning to those Scots that wanted rid of the English,

      he was betrayed by John Stewart/Menteith a fellow Scot for land/titles and a cash reward.

      713 years later and still we get f#cked over by English State/Gov and betrayed by fellow Scots for cash and titles.

    194. Colin Alexander says:

      HandandShrimp asked: “Teachers share information on pupils. So what?”

      So what?? Processing of personal data is subject to the law. I anticipate a number of legal actions against the Scottish Govt on this matter, since the UK Supreme Court’s judgement on the Named Person scheme. The rulings in that case has potentially raised doubts about the legality of the data processing which the Scot Govt has been doing for YEARS under their GIRFEC policy – and continues to do, despite repeated warnings that their actions may be unlawful.

      That’s why the Daily Mail and other newspapers will run and run with this.

      That’s why I suggested Stu address this sooner rather than later.

    195. Ian Brotherhood says:

      No fingering, no blame, and I don’t speak for anyone else but the bickering in here is becoming really really off-putting.

      And if I feel that way, what about the 99+% who never ever comment?

      🙁

    196. Capella says:

      @ yesindyref2 – if you want Stu to deal with a comment then you must email him at the contact address above. He can’t possibly read all the comments as they come in.

    197. Danny says:

      On 29th March next year we ALL lose out=r European Citizenship.

      That is both, frightening and depressing.

      And i bet a huge number of Scots who don’t bother their arse with politics, don’t even realise this fact.

    198. Robert Peffers says:

      @Breeks says: 23 August, 2018 at 10:17 am:

      ” … Ask yourselves why that might be…
      Yes Robert. I wish you actually would ask yourself why that might be.”

      Oh! Breeks I do – I do – constantly.

      ” … The SNP has obviously given you much greater cause to believe in them than they have ever given me. Let’s just see what October brings eh?”

      And there is your problem – it is you.

      Read what I have just explained, in detail, to Colin Alexander.

      The SNP Party leadership cannot dictate party policy – only National Conference delegates, (delegated by the grass roots membership), can change, make or end the SNP party policies. They can only do so at National Conference and only if there are no amendments and no opposition proposals. If there are then the whole matter must be debated and voted upon by delegates – not by party officials or by those elected to government. Every party member has only one vote.

      So, like Colin Alexander, you are all for democracy – as long as the democratic decisions agree with your own personal wishes.

    199. Shinty says:

      Scot Finlayson – you been borrowin’ Jackie Baillie’s calculator?
      613 years since Wallace’s murder.

    200. Macart says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      Well said.

    201. Dan Huil says:

      Still think it’ll be a no-deal brexit. But britnats will say a no deal is a deal in itself. I believe the people of Scotland will consider the britnat stance as BS.

      SNP conference coming up. SNP should say Scotland will remain in customs union and single market regardless of the “deal” Westminster makes. SNP should say they will treat any future trade deals with foreign companies as they would if still in the EU.

      Doesn’t matter about reserved matters. Doesn’t matter if proposals are impractical. Just say it! Chuck as many spanners into Westminster’s works as possible. Don’t play by Westminster’s rules.

    202. Shinty says:

      Scot Findlayson – my sincere apologies 713 years it is indeed -looks like I was using JB’s calculator. Truly sorry.

    203. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Indeed, Shinty. Was just about to correct you. I should know. It’s my birthday.

    204. Shinty says:

      Many happy returns DMH.

      PS. I’ll be sending of a cheque to your Forward shop shortly for a saltire and a couple of scarves. (Loch Lomond Live coming up next month)

    205. Thepnr says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill

      Have a good one 🙂

    206. HandandShrimp says:

      Colin

      You are incorrect. Professional bodies can and do gather and share data within a specific organisation. The issue with the Named Person legislation was the sharing of data between professional bodies without sufficient safeguard. The Scottish Government is currently working up sufficient safeguards to ensure that the guidelines are met.

      The Wail shrieks about the data showing how wealthy the parents are. That is just fourth rate journalism aspiring to be third rate. A key KPI is the exam results of children from socio-economic groups. In order to meet that KPI schools need to know what their social mix is. The teachers do not have access to the parents bank accounts via their laptop they simply know if a pupil is from a particular group. This is not an issue. It would only be a data breach if the school shared un-redacted details with another body. The school can still share redacted details such as overall percentage of passes as long as names are removed.

      Can you imagine the outrage in the Wail if the Scottish Government turned around said we can’t tell you how pupils from different socio-economic backgrounds are performing because we no longer gather that data because you threw your toys out of the pram over teachers knowing who came from which background?

      Data gathering is allowable it is how it is shared that is controlled. Teachers with a professional interest in the sane child in the same school can share. DWP staff dealing with the same client can share. Sending un-redacted databases to other bodies is not allowed, sending the database to the press is right out. This is not rocket science.

    207. Fred says:

      @ Dave, Happy Birthday auld yin! 🙂

    208. Kennedy says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:
      23 August, 2018 at 11:24 am
      Indeed, Shinty. Was just about to correct you. I should know. It’s my birthday.

      Wow you are old! How’s yer prostate?

    209. Nana says:

      Happy birthday Dave 🙂

      Sorry no card, will this do ?

      Just published

      https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-governments-preparations-for-a-no-deal-scenario

    210. K1 says:

      Seriously? Misrepresenting the NP scheme again CA?

      We’ve cooked this shit more times than I care to remember Colin, do you think we’ve all forgotten the last time you attempted this insinuation on here?

      You literally circle round the same petty shit over and over again.

      I thought you had ‘more interesting’ things to be getting on wi rather than posting on this site?

      No matter how many times you state/insinuate the lie about the NP scheme, the facts fly in the face of your outright twisting of the reality:

      ‘The rulings in that case has potentially raised doubts about the legality of the data processing which the Scot Govt has been doing for YEARS under their GIRFEC policy – and continues to do, despite repeated warnings that their actions may be unlawful.’

      Seriously…you are the DM reader who believes this shit even when you have had it stripped back to the bare facts of what the ‘ruling’ was and I told you exactly the last time that the ruling raised no such doubts as you insinuate above? It’s you that is planting the seed of doubt on this issue, it’s you that is promoting this ‘spin’…even when ‘you’ know it to be an utter fabrication?

      Now let’s all ask ourselves…why?

      Then you get all huffy and stroppy when we point out what an absolute roasting zoomerang you are?

      That’s why ‘Fuck off’ is the only simple and direct response to all of your haverings on here…because you don’t do ‘debate’, you are literally coming on now and citing the Daily Mail as ‘something we should be afraid of’…I mean…come on, I know it’s a bit early in the day but that’s just comedy gold…now please do go back to just…fucking off!

    211. Breeks says:


      Robert Peffers says:
      23 August, 2018 at 10:50 am
      @Breeks says: 23 August, 2018 at 10:17am

      ” … The SNP has obviously given you much greater cause to believe in them than they have ever given me. Let’s just see what October brings eh?”

      And there is your problem – it is you.

      Read what I have just explained, in detail, to Colin Alexander….

      So, like Colin Alexander, you are all for democracy – as long as the democratic decisions agree with your own personal wishes.

      I could rest easy if I thought the SNP were in some kind of strategic command, say for example, the announcement about the launch of a Rebuttal Service actually delivered a much needed Rebuttal Service, and didn’t just reveal itself to be one single Tweet after a whole week of BritNat misrepresentation, media bias and distortion. Instead we find a damp squib which even Better Together would disown.

      I am left profoundly disturbed and unsettled that any political organisation can choose to strategically isolate itself from its grassroots support when there is less than 7 short months to suddenly affect a change in opinion which has barely budged in two years, and leave the support it actually has got, undernourished and stumbling in the dark trying to anticipate what the collective pro-Independence strategy might actually be by intuition and guesswork. These fine people deserve much better than that frankly.

      Whenever any well-meant disquiet or frustration tries to make its presence felt, (and why wouldn’t it?) it is met with the tiresome and fundamentally undemocratic “SNPbad” trope, routinely wheeled out to silence dissent amongst its supporters, whilst week in, week out, the media’s orchestrated, systemic and willfull distortion of Scotland’s political landscape is allowed to pedal its propaganda with near absolute impunity and yet the travesty is met with supine indifference.

      “We can’t attack Broadcasting. It’s reserved!” cries Holyrood, … as the BritNats and their media once again slaughter the SNP for it’s murderous Export Licences, oil dependency, Immigration failures and aging population, disfunctional rail network, discriminatory employment Law, weak Defence Strategy and Foreign Policy, and shabby mobile broadband provision.

      Because essentially where I’m concerned Robert, you are simply wrong. I do not hate the SNP, I don’t seek to undermine the SNP. I want Scottish Independence and an end to this despicable Union with every breath I draw in, but I simply find the SNP timid beyond belief and a thoroughly ineffective and uninspiring disappointment, and what’s worse, they are unforgivably complacent about it. The wouldn’t know a Constitutional open goal if they saw one, because they had one in 2016 and promptly turned the other cheek. If they are up to the task of leading my country to freedom, then FFS it is five minutes to midnight, and high time they started to prove it.

    212. Nana says:

      For anyone who wants the details of the No deal Brexit papers so far, follow Lewis Goodall

      THREAD: No deal papers- we’ve looked through so you don’t have to. This is what a no-Deal Britain might look like (caution this might take a while):

      https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1032576458642915328

      and/or
      https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1032592507941675009

    213. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      @ yesindyref2

      Good. Your continual unprovoked attempt to defame me without evidence on this ‘forum’ as some sort of spy/union troll and multiple username poster should go down well, too. Seeing as that is what precisely drove me to see red. And it’s clearly what you wanted.

    214. Foonurt says:

      Aye, bit ah knitting-needle through a tear-duct, isnae thurr weiy tae go..

      Mibbae, oan yoan Loard Ah Thae Flees isle.



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