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Odd spin out

Posted on May 11, 2014 by

The Sunday Mail has a surprisingly low-key piece today about a new opinion poll commissioned by the paper through the little-known pollster Progressive Partnership (who aren’t a member of the British Polling Council) and conducted by YouGov.

Oddly, it seems to have produced two very different sets of results.

The Mail itself says the poll shows the gap narrowing:

“The gap is closing between the Yes and No vote but Better Together retain a big lead, a Sunday Mail opinion poll suggests today.

Asked if Scotland should become an independent country, 34 per cent of those polled said Yes, compared with 54 per cent for No.

A similar Progressive Partnership poll last November showed support for Yes at 27 per cent and for No at 56 per cent.”

And over at What Scotland Thinks, psephologist Professor John Curtice, who readers may not previously have heard of but is apparently well-known in the field, concurs:

“The poll shows a six point swing to Yes compared with last November. Since then, of course, every other pollster has recorded a narrowing of the No lead. To that extent today’s poll is simply further evidence of that narrowing.”

Compared to the last figures from the same polling company, the Yes vote is up seven points and the No vote is down two points. So that’s good news for Yes, right?

btpolllie

Um, what?

Curiously, since the figures emerged other media have reported the findings, with at least four publications running almost-identical stories with no bylines on them, all spinning the results in favour of the No camp, with barely a mention of the fact that the numbers show a major swing to Yes compared to the pollster’s last findings.

“More than half of voters could reject independence” (STV)

“More than half of voters could reject independence” (Courier)

“More than half of voters could reject independence” (Herald)

“More than half of voters could reject independence” (Scotsman)

Curiously, then, the only people who are out of step in the reporting of the poll are the people who commissioned and paid for it, and the man universally presented by the Scottish media as an impartial professional analyst. Everyone else is running the same piece of spin, far more favourable to the No camp, presumably sourced from an agency somewhere, and whose author is unknown.

We’ll leave readers to draw whatever conclusions they wish to.

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    274 to “Odd spin out”

    1. gordoz says:

      “And over at What Scotland Thinks, psephologist Professor John Curtice, who readers may not previously have heard of but is apparently well-known in the field, concurs”

      You are a cheeky b’stard Stu .. but we love it.

    2. naebd says:

      +++ More than half of voters could reject independence +++ +++ More than half of voters could reject independence +++ +++ More than half of voters could reject independence +++ +++ More than half of voters could reject independence +++ +++ More than half of independence reject voTTT TTT PRESS RELEASE BOT MALFUNCTION

    3. Robert Bryce says:

      Better Together are now the political equivalent of a child who sticks his fingers in his ears and shouts “LA LA LA I’M NOT LISTENING!”

    4. Gordon Hay says:

      A commenter on the Herald story posted this –

      “I took part in that poll and at no time were we asked about independence. It asked about voting intentions at the next Westminster elections, this is at worst disingenuous, but possibly something much more sinister”

      If this is true, is it possible that only those who gave the “right” response to the WM voting intentions question were then asked the (reworded) referendum question?

    5. naebd says:

      Gordon – it could be that the person who wasn’t asked about independence is mistaken and was answering a different survey than the one above?

    6. gordoz says:

      Were BBC youth animation productions responsible for this incorrect, misleading BT graphic ?

      Lie Klaxon ???

    7. But these comic figures in this graphic from Better Together are from polls commissioned by two different organisations, Channel 4 News and Progressive Partnerships (whatever that is) – what were the questions, samples, etc?

      There’s no more information in this pic than taking a photo of two coloured cocktail sticks dropped on a pub table.

    8. gordoz says:

      @Noel Chidwick

      The cocktail sticks graphic was Plan B 🙂

    9. Stewart says:

      There could be a good reason for the almost identical headings and no byline: the story is PA copy, and PA copy comes with a suggested headline that tired sub will tend to use rather than have to think up one for themselves.

    10. cearc says:

      ‘More than half of voters could reject independence,’ is a rather good line really.

      At least it is true. In fact, all voters COULD reject independence, it just not very likely.

    11. scottish_skier says:

      and conducted by YouGov.

      Where has this bit come from? It’s why BT seem to think they can compare with Yougov.

      I’ve not seen Yougov mentioned in previous PSO polls. Prof C doesn’t say that and neither does the Sunday Mail article. Only BT?

      I’m sure Prof. C would have been keen to compare with Yougov if it was essentially a Yougov poll just commissioned by PSO.

      It may actually be the case that PSO used the Yougov panel, but that’s not the same as a Yougov poll. For example, PSO may just have asked Yougov to ask the questions, then PSO do their own weighting to the results.

    12. HandandShrimp says:

      It certainly gives lie to BT’s nonsense about “it is only a poll” when they don’t like a result that they have to cobble together two disparate polls, one with no tables to boot, to create an impression of doing well.

      May it feed into the existing apathy of their voters 😉

    13. Flooplepoop says:

      It appears to be a coordinated media attack using a spurious poll which was incorrectly compared to another poll to get results that they could report.

      Reporting saying that since the last time that company had done a poll,the No lead had closed by 9 percantage points wouldn’t do as that would be too factual.

    14. heedtracker says:

      No idea who Professor Curtice is but my conclusion, Scotland will soon be an independent nation state running its own affairs. Is Prof Curtice on Eastenders?

    15. galamcennalath says:

      They’ve lied about everything else! Twisting poll results to hide the truth was inevitable.

      One of these days one of the other companies, whose methods have been showing a smaller difference, will declare a Yes lead. As readers may be aware, there are rumours about a new one being suppressed.

      A lead for Yes will start to emerge, I’m sure, and they can’t hide the truth indefinitely.

      It will just be another BT & MSM lie debunked. More deceit to add to the already stinking midden that is the No campaign.

    16. I’ll stick to the straw polls , & the wings poll ( due out when ? )
      in any case the Westminster govt will probably be banning polls as we approach sept

    17. a2 says:

      Regardless of the spin or the direction of travel, that’s still very depressing. I just can’t for the life of me get into the no voter’s way of thinking to see what’s going on.

      Perhaps Scots really are too stupid?

    18. Democracy Reborn says:

      @scottish_skier

      Any idea when the next ICM poll might be due?

    19. The Man in the Jar says:

      Better Together can delude themselves all they like about the polls as far as I am concerned. Their complacency has already damaged them severely. More of the same please!

    20. scottish_skier says:

      Any idea when the next ICM poll might be due?

      One could appear at any time.

      The Scotsman/SoS is doing one once a month with them. Last was 20th April, so possibly as early as next weekend.

    21. caz-m says:

      I noticed Councillor Terry Kelly (Spit) mouthing it off in the Herald comments (link above), I don’t have access to the comments on the Herald.

      If anyone can get into the comments page at the Herald, ask Terry Kelly if his “Bookie” mate is still offering such generous odds on a NO victory and a YES defeat.

      http://councillorterrykelly.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/separation-71-against-union-19-on.html

    22. Mike says:

      The NEW PRO INDY Herald has spun this story in favour of the No campaign. I did warn people not to trust this phoney announcement of support.

    23. BuckieBraes says:

      @a2
      I know, it is depressing when you view these polls in a certain way.

      However, away from the referendum-geekery of those of us here in Wingsland, most people still aren’t thinking about September to any great extent. That, in itself, is a bit depressing; but at some point it will dawn on folk that the question to be asked concerns Scotland’s sovereignty, not whether or not they like Alex Salmond.

    24. Thepnr says:

      @a2

      “Perhaps Scots really are too stupid?”

      Perhaps not!

      We’ll see how “stupid” they are on 19th September. I have faith.

    25. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Ignorance is strength, war is peace, black is white, up is down, left is right, in is out, JoLa is Debater of the Year, JaBa’s a total babe etc etc…

    26. Mathie says:

      I know some people who are undecided.
      I know some people who have always been No voters.
      I know a lot of people who have always been Yes voters.
      I know some people who have changed to Yes voters.
      I do not know anybody who has been a Yes voter or undecided, who read the evidence and decided to vote No.

    27. caz-m says:

      scottish_skier

      I think maybe the Yougov poll query has been mistakenly taken from the Channel 4 Yougov poll.

      In the middle of all the bullshit that has been printed about the two polls, people have genuinely thought that Yougov carried out the two polls.

    28. auldacquaintance says:

      @ Mike… The Herald has stated that it is staying neutral at present, although you can take that with a pinch of salt with Gardham as political editor.
      Its sister paper the Sunday Herald is the one that has come decisively out for YES…

    29. George Bowie says:

      Yougov is owned and run by a Tory MP. They have been very selective on who can vote and have allowed people residing in England to participate. I joined with my email address that includes SNP and never got a chance to be part of any Indy pole only product opinion ones. Suspect they are conducting it to suit the nos.

    30. Democracy Reborn says:

      @scottish_skier

      Thanks.

      Can I ask your opinion on something else? What effect, if any, do you think polls such as the latest Sunday Mail one have on voting intentions? For example, despite being flawed, would the headline results motivate the ‘don’t knows’ either way? If the polls still showed a lead, albeit narrow, for the No side up until polling day, would there be an element of complacency amongst some No voters (particularly soft No’s) to think ‘the result is a foregone conclusion’ & therefore & ‘I can’t be bothered voting?

    31. Red Squirrel says:

      So, if this is spun so wildly, goodness only knows what outrageous fibs will appear yet about our indyref. Looks like it’s making BT feel good about themselves – can’t wait for the next round of freeze/thaw don’t leave us/you can’t leave us drama. Who needs soaps with this much crap dialogue and rubbish acting?

    32. Free Scotland says:

      A few weeks ago, I took part in a telephone poll. The guy said the survey related to health and safety at work. But among the first few questions he asked my nationality. I said Scottish, and there was a slight pause in the survey and a few buttons being clicked in the background. I wonder, if I had said British, if the next question would have related in some way to September 18th.

    33. Taysideterrier says:

      This is why they will do everything they can to suppress, spin and contrive to stop any polls showing any more movement to yes,
      From the uk parliament quebec referendum paper to be found in the repository.
      http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.com/repository/TheQuebecReferendums.pdf

      “As the referendum approached, financial markets began to react negatively to the uncertainty. From 1994 onwards, interest rates paid by Canada to borrow on the financial markets began to go up relative to US government borrowing. Quebec’s budget deficit was one of the concerns in the markets. A London-based fund manager commented in 1995 that lending money to a sovereign Quebec was not attractive:
      [Quebec’s debt is] of doubtful value – uncertain government, uncertain direction, not a member of international organisations, it’s got a lot of debt, it’s arguing about how much to assume of Federal Government debt. Why should I want to get in a credit like that? It would be absolute nonsense for our kind of fund

    34. mato21 says:

      If the poll had had any merit would it not have been a front page spread? The fact it was not tells you all you need to know

    35. Taysideterrier says:

      Sorry forgot to take out the http!

      This too page 23.

      http://www.worldofstuart.excellentcontent.com/repository/TheQuebecReferendums.pdf

      “On 20th October, just before the poll, an opinion survey showed the Yes side marginally ahead. Afterwards, the Canadian dollar lost 1.6% of its value in less than a week.”

    36. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Mike at 4.13

      The pro-indy Herald is the Sunday Herald.
      It has a different editor and a completely different policy from the Herald.
      If you haven’t read the Sunday Herald it’s a bit daft making remarks about it.
      Good idea to go and buy one before they all run out.

    37. Mike says:

      auldacquaintance

      Today is Sunday and its the Sunday Herald which is running with the No campaign version of the poll.

    38. Adrian B says:

      New buttons to play with ….bottom right of screen 😀

    39. scottish_skier says:

      Anthony Wells of Yougov on BT’s ahem ‘Yougov’ poll.

      “Progressive Polling polls are NOT YouGov polls. In the past I think YouGov have done some of their fieldwork, but that doesn’t mean they are weighted the same way as YG polls so you should compare them to the last PP poll, not to YG polls (as far as I’m aware this last one was nothing at all to do with YG and had fieldwork done elsewhere, but I couldn’t vouch for that 100%, it may be something done without my knowledge)”

      http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/8776#comment-904090

    40. Mike says:

      Dave McEwan Hill

      Today is Sunday and its the Sunday Herald which is running with the No campaign version of the poll.

    41. Les Wilson says:

      Sunday Herald, we do need to watch them carefully, despite their grand coming out. Does a leopard change it’s spots?
      I am still out on it, until there is plenty positive proof.
      Remember, labour are the most deceitful party, always close to the “Scottish” media!

      The Sunday Herald, if a ploy, will be judged by history.

    42. Lesley-Anne says:

      Think I’ll stick with the results that come from all the debates around the country that Better Together are too feart to attend. At least the results I’ve seen show that you get almost exclusively YES winning every post debate poll. 🙂

    43. Liquid Lenny says:

      Mike

      Today is Sunday and I have just read the Sunday Herald cover to cover and cant find any mention of the statement you have made regarding the poll, I have just had a quick look through the paper again and cant find it, perhaps you could tell us which page its on so I can check again.

      What I did see in the Sunday Herald was a paper which whilst being on the Yes side, gave the other side the last word in a couple of articles, which I think is fair, pity the other newspapers don’t give the YES side an opportunity to comment (First would do never mind last)

    44. Abaron Nomore says:

      As far as I’m aware, there is no distinction on the website between Sunday Herald and daily Herald stories. I’ve no idea who the online editor is but the poll story arrived online long after the Sunday Herald was published and I very much doubt would have had anything to do with the Sunday’s editorial staff.

      One reason I now buy the Sunday Herald but would not register for online access as there is no distinction – you register for both papers.

    45. gordoz says:

      The Scottish Secular Society is supporting a YES vote in the Scottish independence referendum.

      The decision was taken after extensive consultations with its members, who support this stance by more than 90% of votes cast in an online poll.

      Now that is a pretty clear result !!

      http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-opinion/9165-scottish-secular-society-announces-backing-for-yes

    46. Jim Marshall says:

      These polls have no credibility. How can a ” random ” ( prove that they”re random ) poll of 1,000 or so people be extrapolated to reflect accurately an electorate of 4.100,000 voters.

    47. magicpants says:

      Sorry o/t but how can I find out where my nearest Yes group is? Tried Startpage search for local yes groups Glasgow but couldn’t find anything except Facespook pages for Cathcart and some others. I don’t have a FB account and won’t be getting one.

      I’m in Glasgow NW (G20).

    48. X_Sticks says:

      @magicpants

      Good list on Clydeside Yes – might help 🙂

      http://yesclydesdale.org/yeslinks/yes_groups.html

    49. Andy-B says:

      Conducted by YouGov, and backed up by the unionist press and tv,they must think we’re stupid. Now if the unionist surveys and polls put it at 50/50 then, I would tend to agree with them on it, because that would be closer to the truth.

    50. G H Graham says:

      Don’t be fooled. The Sunday Herald announcement last week is an editorial ploy to prop up the falling sales of The Herald. Any money earned on a Sunday immediately supports printing 6 editions of the pro-unionist Herald.

      But if a few lines of pro independence copy makes your day, go ahead and buy one. Just expect to be pissed off when the Sunday editions print just as much bullshit as the daily version.

      You could save yourself the money & the headache of course by not bothering reading any of the shite they print. I gave them both up 2 years ago and have never once regretted it. Neither are consistent or reliable so I explore exclusively on line at website just like this for the truth.

    51. Robert Kerr says:

      @magic pants,

      Why not phone YesScotland in Hope Street.

      Try Ria Robertson on 07585730270

    52. Andy-B says:

      O/T Rev I do apologise, Boris Johnson calls Scottish independence, an act of mutilation, Johnson said he hadn’t been called on yet to deliver the “coup de grace” to the SNP and Scottish independence,but he would if so asked.

      http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/johnson-calls-yes-vote-act-of-mutilation.24179667

    53. Morag Graham Kerr says:

      Magicpants, that list X-Sticks linked to is only another list of links to Facebook pages. If you go here

      http://yesscotland.nationbuilder.com/join_an_event

      this shows details of all the events people have put into the system as happening in the coming weeks.

      Some of them haven’t entered dates which is daft, but the Kelvin ones do. You might be able to link up with someone if you can find a local event to show up at.

    54. proudscot says:

      I too have read and re-read my tSunday Herald and can see no mention of it “spinning a YouGov poll in favour of a NO vote.” Maybe I’m developing a blind spot for the continual negative assertions from the NO side. Which page is this poll spin on?

    55. Andy-B says:

      This is scary stuff, Nigel Farage claiming UKIP will definitely win at least one seat in Scotland maybe two. Farage goes on to say (and this is the scary bit) “We’ll definitely have legitimate voice in Scottish politics, in two weeks time”.

      http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/05/09/nigel-farage-could-snatch-two-seats-in-scotland-_n_5297995.html?ir=UK+Politics

    56. Morag Graham Kerr says:

      Talk is cheap.

    57. caz-m says:

      proudscot

      Here is the Herald showing the latest poll with YES on 34%.

      It is on the Herald website but is dated Sunday 11th May.

      So that would make the Sunday Herald. I think.

      All a bit confusing.

      http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/latest-poll-yes-34-no-54-undecided-12.1399808292

    58. call me dave says:

      @proudscot

      I can confirm No YouGov poll in my copy of Sunday Herald either.

      But there is online (story time stamp 5hrs ago)

    59. call me dave says:

      Your right it’s 11th May story been updated

    60. Justin Kenrick says:

      Andy-B

      That’s why it’s vital that enough people vote Green, meaning a pro-Independence Party picks up the 6th seat not UKIP. I declare an interest here as a passionate independence supporting Green.

      If Green wins then Scotland is saying the independence movement is much more than the SNP.

      If UKIP win then they can say there is really no difference between politics here and south of the border.

      I believe the result if the referendum hangs on whether a Green picks up the 6th seat, or UKIP or the LibDems do.

      Be interested to know what scottish_skier thinks.

    61. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Mike at 4.46
      No, it is not. I have the Sunday Herald in front of me.
      You are obviously reading the online Herald site which doesn’t distinguish

      Sunday Herald

      front page; Revealed: the secret oil report exclusive

      pages1/2 : Kevin Bridges gives his take on independence Church service to bring Yes and No together

      pages 3/4/5 no political issues; some contentious stuff about police

      pages 8/9 Westminster reports by Gavin McCrone about Scottish oil which were buried and kept secret; YES emails WERE hacked

      page 10 Weirs donate £2.5 million to YES cause

      page 12 Scary Orange suggestion it will put on huge pro Union march

      page 13; Kenyon Wright “Why I believe Yes vote is the only way”

      pages14/15 Feature on finding a YES balloon; Good article by Ian Bell

      page 16 Story on Douglas Alexander and the spirit of John Smith

      page 17 Scottish Tory Youth Conference cancelled due to only 12 take-ups; article about MSPs in general and business links

      pages 18/19 interesting feature on the great successes of Glasgow School of Art

      pages 20/21 Hutcheon and Gordon put the boot into Farage. Iain Macwhirter does similar

      pages 22/23 Feature on Zero Hours working

      pages 24/29/30 Essay of the week. Osborne The man who disunited the kingdom (from Iain Macwhirter)

      up to page 35 Features on Commonwealth Games

      36/37/38/39 World stuff; Boko Haram in Nigeria

      page 40 Editorial in support of oil fund/Letters in support of Sunday Herald declaration and letters against

      page 42 “Selfie Sunday” – photgraphs of YES supporters and families holding up last week’s front page declaration

      plus
      Pull out section large poster of last week’s front page declaration for YEs backed by last week’s editorial in support of it.

      No sign whatsoever of the rogue poll done by a marketing company not an approved polling company published in the Sunday Mail. It may be carried in tomorrow’s Herald. The Herald newspaper is an arse.

      The Sunday Herald on the other hand has been supporting independence for quite some time and merely declared last
      week what most of us had already registered

      Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth!

      I am ***ing fed up with silly uninformed comments about it

      Les Wilson
      The Sunday Herald supported the SNP in 2007 and 2011 and has not been at any point in any way a unionist newspaper

    62. Mike says:

      The following was directly cut and pasted from the SUNDAY Herald Headline TODAY It shows the polling results in big bold figures. I don’t subscribe to their propaganda so I couldn’t get the full article.

      Latest poll: Yes 34%, No 54%, Undecided 12%

      Sunday 11 May 2014

      More than half of voters could reject independence for Scotland in the referendum, a new poll suggests.

      “The survey, published in the Sunday Mail, found 54% plan to vote No in the independence referendum on September 18.

      Just over a third (34%) of those questioned said they will vote Yes, while 12% are undecided.”

    63. Mike says:

      Yes Dave I am highlighting the ONLINE Sunday Herald. I certainly wouldn’t buy a printed copy.
      Why pay to be misinformed when you can download Ebook fiction for free?

    64. jon esquierdo says:

      MarkAitken the political editor of the S

    65. jon esquierdo says:

      Mark Aitken the political editor of the Sunday Mail is a fuckwit. Hey guys if we do not match like for like we are going to lose

    66. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Mike at 6.15
      Indeed, Mike. You are not reading the Sunday Herald. You are reading the online Herald site.
      You are the one who is chosing to be uninformed.

    67. Liquid Lenny says:

      G H Graham
      That’s your opinion, mine is different, if the Sunday Herald shows a growing circulation, then the other papers may become more neutral in a hope of getting some more readers.

      The papers are still the general public’s main source of information after TV.

      Yesterday at a YES street stall I assisted at, all the undecideds, who we managed to engage had never heard of Wings, or Newsnet Scotland or Bella Caledonia etc. They
      got there (mis)information from the MSM.

      That is why its important that we support the Sunday Herald

      Im confident the Scottish Sun will follow in due course.
      And not for circulation reasons but Murdoch’s hatred of the British Establishment.

    68. Mike says:

      I know its exciting to believe a mainstream publication announced its new support for Independence but we’ve been down this road before with the Sun.
      There is nothing in todays Sunday Herald ONLINE that shows me they’ve changed their spots.
      Or is the “Daily Herald” now free to print ONLINE 7 days of unionist propaganda because it can tone it down on its paper printed Sunday versions and have it accepted as impartial?
      Come on.

    69. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      …and the Sunday Herald also covered the Labour regional co-ordinator who has joined Labour for Indy

    70. Andy-B says:

      I don’t like the tone of this, when UDA commanders and hard men start speaking up for the union, it opens up a whole new level of scaremongering, will it lead to loyalist violence in Scotland, over the referendum?.

      http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/11/scottish-independence-uda-ulster-loyalists-campaign

    71. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Mike at 6.21

      FFS!

    72. Mike says:

      Dave

      The Herald has always thrown in the odd titbit of pro Indy because its still trying to maintain a pretence to impartiality so does the BBC.

    73. Liquid Lenny says:

      Dave McEwan Hill at 6.24

      Agree with you.

    74. Mike says:

      Dave at 6:24

      FFS!

    75. Mike says:

      Wake up!

      The “HERALD” is running its USUAL Pro Unionist bias 7 DAYS A WEEK ONLINE. For those confused about the implications 7 days is INCLUSIVE of SUNDAYS. For the “SUNDAY HERALD” to run in a different direction they would have to contradict each other. A publication which shoots its own self down.
      Give me a break.

    76. Flower of Scotland says:

      Wey Hey! Just noticed the blue arrows on the RHS of web page! Could always go back quickly but difficult going forward. Don’t anyone say it’s been there for ages! I won’t believe you!!

      I bought my first newspaper in a year or so today! The Sunday Herald was ok. Will continue with it and make up my mind at a later date. It was certainly nice to see YES stuff for a change!

      I’m hoping the polls are like the ones before Devolution! My husband and I went on holiday to Ibiza thinking it would be No! Half of the village went mad after the vote with saltires hanging off balconies. We had such a party! Can you imagine what it will be like if we get Independence! Getting in the champers already!

    77. Andrew Morton says:

      The Scot goes Pop crowdfunding appeal has now reached £1,678. Let’s show the Wings effect by getting him over the finish line by this time tomorrow!

      https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/scot-goes-pop-fundraiser-for-accurate-reporting-of-indyref-polls

    78. Liquid Lenny says:

      Mike

      Read the fkin paper

    79. gardennat says:

      I can’t understand why anyone on here would argue that we shouldn’t buy the Sunday Herald.I started purchasing it around 3 months ago because of comments made here, and haven’t seen any reason to stop doing so.

      As someone outlined above,the paper is full of pro independence stuff which won’t be printed in any other paper.I am actually surprised at just how much coverage they give to the Independence campaign as it must have lost them some readers(whilst hopefully attracting many more). Even if that was their only reason for supporting YES what difference does it make? They would lose all credibility if they changed their mind before September and if they did it after a NO vote,so what?

    80. john king says:

      When we came out of the parly after fmq’s he was sitting on the wall outside, having been on camera and he stared me out all the way back to my car, I think her had a feeling he knew me but couldnt think from where, he was freaking me out.

    81. john king says:

      her? he 🙂

    82. jon esquierdo says:

      We must insist by letter to the S

    83. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      I have just checked online. It is the “Herald online”. It says so at the top of the page. It does not say Sunday Herald online. It is not the Sunday Herald online. If you want to read the Sunday Herald you have to buy one. It costs less than the Sunday Post or the Sunday Mail
      The Herald online on Monday always covers pieces from the Sunday Herald.

    84. Marcia says:

      BT will look foolish when the next poll shows the contest to be far closer than what they are spinning today.

      If you can spare a few bob to get accurate poll news, James Kelly has an ongoing fundraiser that started today.

      https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/scot-goes-pop-fundraiser-for-accurate-reporting-of-indyref-polls#pledges

    85. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      @ John King 6:38

      ?

    86. jon esquierdo says:

      Sory about that I meant to say Scottish cabionet

    87. HandandShrimp says:

      Mike

      The Sunday Herald and the Herald have different writers and editors.

      The on-line Herald is, by and large, just the Herald with a nod towards the Sunday edition main story. I do not expect the on-line version to change its stance unless something dramatic happens in the Herald.

      The print version of the Sunday Herald on the other hand is worth reading and has been for a while.

    88. Paula Rose says:

      For the second week running the Sunday Herald had sold out in Brechin by lunch time, none of the other titles had.

    89. Andrew Mott says:

      Magicpants – best bet is to search for local events on the YesScotland website. I’ll use this opportunity to shamelessly plug my own event next Saturday in Hyndland. Would be great to see you there!

      http://yesscotland.nationbuilder.com/mottan/yes_kelvin_leafleting_17th_may?recruiter_id=39172

    90. Hood says:

      My take on the Sunday Herald argument above.

      People who will read the paper will be the group most likely to [b]not[/b] go online for news. So a paper carrying unbiased or even biassed towards Yes can only be a good thing.

      People who look at the Herald Online, are obviously online and will be more likely to look at other sites (Wings, Newsnet, Bella etc etc) Thus they are more likely to recognise the MSM spin.

    91. Andrew Morton says:

      Well, I have a Herald subscription, so I always read it online. However, today, as it was offering a copy of last week’s front page, I thought I’d buy the print version.

      Having read it, I thought it was almost embarrassingly pro Yes in its reporting.

      I think Dave McEwan Hill is spot on in his assessment and I’d have to disagree with Mike.

      Reading Herald online as I do every day (and commenting pretty much every day too) it’s obviously reflecting the weekday Herald with some Sunday Herald stuff pasted in.

    92. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Mike says

      “The “HERALD” is running its USUAL Pro Unionist bias 7 DAYS A WEEK ONLINE.”

      Indeed it is. The Sunday Herald is not. Are you deliberately missing the point?

    93. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      My daughter bought me the last Sunday Herald, from the local newsagen, in Freuchie, and will send it to me this week.

      There will be a little hoose in rural France with the Sunday Post for Yes poster in the windae.

    94. scottish_skier says:

      That’s why it’s vital that enough people vote Green, meaning a pro-Independence Party picks up the 6th seat not UKIP.

      It’s not quite like that. If e.g. lots of SNP voters vote Green, that won’t stop UKIP taking the Tory seat; UKIP are fighting with the Tories here just as they are in the rUK.

      The best way to stop UKIP taking the Tory seat is for everyone to go out to vote and not vote for UKIP. The more people that vote, the more the UKIP vote is diluted, the lower the chance they have of a seat.

      I do not advise tactical voting. The counting method is PR-type after all. all I advise is vote for who you want to represent you and hopefully that’s a pro-indy party vote!

      I’d love to see the greens take a seat BTW.

    95. TJenny says:

      BtP – Viva La Veille Alliance. 🙂

    96. scottish_skier says:

      If the Sunday Herald / Herald stopped reporting polls which favoured the No campaign and only reported Yes favourable ones, then it/they would be entering a mirror image of the self delusional world that BT currently exists in.

    97. HandandShrimp says:

      Scottish Skier

      I was advocating that the other day. We mustn’t be apathetic over the EU vote. I know it is a bit of a yawn and most are not entirely sure who our MEP is but if we all go out and vote, SNP, Green, SSP etc then that will block UKIP. However numbers not tactical voting is the answer. It was the low turnout that let UKIP and the BNP tale seats in England.

    98. Croompenstein says:

      Aw for f*ck sake Disreporting Scotland still running with the GQ Putin non-story. Honestly I am sitting with my head in my hands..

    99. manandboy says:

      How to spot a No voter.

      It’s the one wearing the blindfold.

    100. Morag Graham Kerr says:

      SS, I think it’s the pro-No spin they’re complaining about. However, the article isn’t in the Sunday Herald. It seems to have appeared on the web site today, well after the Sunday Herald papers were on our breakfast tables. It may feature in Monday’s Herald.

      The only actual thing which is the Sunday Herald is the dead-tree paper. Some of its articles are also featured on the Herald online, but that’s not the same thing at all.

      There’s no point anyone going off on one against the dead-tree Sunday Herald without actually reading the dead-tree Sunday Herald, or at least knowing what is and isn’t in it.

    101. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      TJ

      Wee kinky can-can boots.

    102. Papadox says:

      @Andy-B says:
      11 May, 2014 at 5:38 pm

      O/T Rev I do apologise, Boris Johnson calls Scottish independence, an act of mutilation, Johnson said he hadn’t been called on yet to deliver the “coup de grace” to the SNP and Scottish independence,but he would if so asked.

      This shit is what the NO/BT are proud of and want us to vote for. Aye turkey’s voting for Christmas and there are normal decent Scots who are prepared to walk into the slaughter house with their eyes wide open.

      Boris the new duke of Cumberland. Then he can plunder wee Scotland and cart all the loot down to LONDINIUM and leave the Sots to rot in their own poverty.

    103. Mike says:

      “Indeed it is. The Sunday Herald is not. Are you deliberately missing the point?”

      Whats the difference between the “Sunday Herald” and the “Herald on Sunday”?

    104. Morag Graham Kerr says:

      There’s no such paper as the Herald on Sunday?

    105. TJenny says:

      BtP – Eek, is my webcam on!

    106. Morag Graham Kerr says:

      Look, If you don’t like what they put on the web site, don’t go to the bloody web site. However, don’t criticise an actual physical newspaper on account of an article it DIDN’T publish.

    107. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      TJ

      Just look into my eyes.

    108. caz-m says:

      Andy-B

      Henry Dunbar of the Orange Order came out with the classic unionist quote,

      “proud to be Scottish but…”

      No wonder the YES campaign cancelled a September Rally.

      Too close to the Referendum, and could have attracted a lot of nutcases.

      Better Together really do have some fruitcakes in amongst their ranks, if you include the Orange Order, UKIP, BNP, SDL, EDL, fanatical Rangers fans, Rnagers FC directors, Celtic FC directors, Glasgow City Council, Aberdeen City Council, North Lanarkshire Council, etc…

    109. TJenny says:

      caz-m – and let’s not forget Willie Young, oh and the Loony Lords too.

    110. Andrew Miller says:

      OT- sorry first post and instantly off topic, I have not seen any publicity regarding the herald and BBC story on 120% of ballots being printed for the referendum due to possible damage or spoilt ballots papers, I have already tried to pass this to WOS but not sure if it actually got there, it appears to be an article that is getting buried with only 17 comments over the last 4 days. link: http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/bumper-order-of-ballot-papers-as-high-referendum-turnout-forecast.24170065

    111. Liquid Lenny says:

      Morag Graham Kerr 7.05

      Hear Hear

    112. Croompenstein says:

      Just contributed to Scot Goes Pop and a recommended crowdfund was for the autoblow2 ooh matron! and the Malaga keeper is called Willy

    113. Mike says:

      Scottish skier

      The fact that the Sunday Herald felt the need to declare itself in favour of a point of view is disturbing and reflects the fact that it felt it had to do so in order to “balance” the fact that the rest of the “Herald” comes down in favour of a different point of view.
      Now as far as MSM publications go that is a self condemnation as these publications promote the fact that they provide NEWS at a price. Theyre supposed to be selling NEWS not making it or creating different versions of it.
      It doesn’t matter if they are privately owned or not if they are legally allowed to reflect the views of their owners the fact is they are advertising a PRODUCT FOR SALE and failing to deliver that product after payment.
      People want NEWS real NEWS not somebodies deliberately distorted version of it.
      How are folk supposed to make informed decisions and choices under these conditions?

    114. Liquid Lenny says:

      I should have added that Mike is concerned that we are being duped into believing that the Sunday Herald is pro-indy when in fact it is conning us due to what the website posts.

      The point is Mike, I don’t care who is conning who, as long as the Sunday Herald prints pro-yes stuff which is read by people who don’t go online.

      I don’t care where the money is going. If it brings 10 people a week onto YES its worth my £1.30 a week. In fact if it brings 1 person on a week its worth more than my £1.30 a week.

    115. Robert Louis says:

      Well, last week I bought my very first newspaper for oh, maybe ten years. It was of course the Sunday Herald. I did the same today. This pattern will repeat for the foreseeable future, since they have a clear declared pro Scotland editorial position.

      I’d rather pay for the Sunday Herald, than contribute a license fee to pay for the blatantly biased, anti Scottish, lying, deceptive, British Nationalist BBC.

    116. TJenny says:

      Liquid Lenny – agreed. 🙂

    117. Flower of Scotland says:

      I fancy going to watch this Orange parade, in Sept, with my YES SALTIRE!! Although the last one I saw in West Calder in the 80,s was policed by horrible thugs with batons! Hope that they have improved!!

    118. Flower of Scotland says:

      I wasn’t talking about the Police either,

    119. Murray McCallum says:

      Given families and friends are split around a Yes / No vote, I don’t see the issue with papers and editors within the same overall holding company having a different view that much of a surprise.

      The most remarkable thing about the Scottish press is that it is overwhelmingly ‘No’ and therefore does not reflect Scotland. This is odd.

    120. Heather McLean says:

      “These polls have no credibility. How can a ” random ” ( prove that they”re random ) poll of 1,000 or so people be extrapolated to reflect accurately an electorate of 4.100,000 voters.”

      I would tend to agree with this statement Jim Marshall!
      A group of Dundee activists go out canvassing every Tuesday and Thursday and the word on the doorstep (ie THE PEOPLE WHO WILL ACTUALLY PUT THEIR CROSS ON THE BOX) is very positive and puts YES well in the lead!

      While there are obviously a lot of people still undecided, when asked to put themselves on a scale of 1-10 ( 1 being NO and 10 being YES)the majority of people put themselves above 5!

      Over 40 of us were out campaigning today and out of all the people I personally canvassed, which was well over 100 people, only 2 were voting NO. All the others were either 10’s or 6 and above.
      People want to vote yes and only looking to have their minds put at rest over a few things they have been misinformed about, thanks to the media.

      As soon as they are reassured, things are explained clearly and they have been directed to this site or other alternative sources of informtion, then I am confident they will be firm YES votes.

      In all my adult life I have NEVER been asked to take part in a poll.
      So my question is, WHO takes part in these polls? Who are they asking?
      The evidence we are getting out on the streets totally contradicts the poll results!

    121. Heather McLean says:

      Morag Graham Kerr says:
      “Look, If you don’t like what they put on the web site, don’t go to the bloody web site. However, don’t criticise an actual physical newspaper on account of an article it DIDN’T publish.”

      AMEN to that!

    122. Mike says:

      Lenny I believe the Sunday Herald made the declaration because the owners of the Herald Group are finally starting to feel the pinch economically because we in protest to the garbage they print decided to stop buying it. Now suddenly folk are talking about re-subscribing in spite of the fact that it looks like nothing has changed.
      That’s what Im concerned about. The subscribers are funding the No campaigns propaganda arm.

    123. caz-m says:

      Could the problem regarding the Herald not be solved if their website on a Sunday carried only news and reports that were in the Sunday Herald printed copies.

      Or is this crossing of stories common practice on websites amongst other papers like the Daily Mail/ Mail on Sunday, The Sun/Sunday Sun, Daily Express/Sunday Express, Daily Record/Sunday Mail.

    124. JLT says:

      galamcennalath

      A lead for Yes will start to emerge, I’m sure, and they can’t hide the truth indefinitely.

      Totally agree, mate …totally agree. When that first poll does get published, I think it will send seismic shockwaves not only through Better Together, but the whole of the UK. When it happens, then the whole game really changes.

    125. Mike says:

      Morag Graham Kerr says:
      “Look, If you don’t like what they put on the web site, don’t go to the bloody web site. However, don’t criticise an actual physical newspaper on account of an article it DIDN’T publish.”

      BUT IT DID! ONLINE!

    126. Croompenstein says:

      Lots of the events coming up by Yes are for undecided only, was thinking of going along but how do you act so f*cking stupid to blend in as an undecided?

    127. handclapping says:

      @Heather McLean

      Trouble is that the Yes / No vote seems to be splitting on money grounds. Those that haven’t Yes, those that have No. Dundee is one of the poorer areas of Scotland so you should expect a higher Yes. The question is can you get your Yes high enough to counteract the monied folk in Aberdeen or East Renfrew who will be Nos?

    128. Paula Rose says:

      @ Croompenstein (7:35) – wear a barbour jacket.

    129. Croompenstein says:

      Atletico Madrid have a player called Wan Fran, it would be great if they had another called Wan Anna. (*Wan being Juan)

    130. Grouse Beater says:

      Wee Dougie Alexander “calls on the spirit of John Smith for the No vote.”

      It is rumoured he added: I see dead people.

    131. Liquid Lenny says:

      Mike
      I don’t know anybody who has subscribed to the Sunday Herald due to its editorial change on Indy.

      People are reserving copies at their newsagent which is a completely different thing.

      The Sunday Herald is not going to make a massive difference, it only had about 25k circulation anyway but it will get to several thousand undecided, and you know what most of the undecided I know that have converted are almost evangelical in there conversion, they become activists and get thousands of other people over.

      Not one thing is going to win this for us, but lots of little steps and the Sunday Herald’s stance should be encouraged because its a little step but by its actions lots of more little steps will ensue.

    132. Morag Graham Kerr says:

      Mike, do you not read what you yourself quoted? “An actual physical newspaper” is what we’re talking about. NOT the Herald Online. Which publishes things with Sunday dates on them which are nevertheless not part of the Sunday Herald.

      The article you’re talking about didn’t appear until the Sunday Herald had been printed and distributed.

      You’re taking things on the Herald Online with Sunday dates on them, and (dis)crediting them to the Sunday Herald. This is a gross misunderstanding of what the Sunday Herald is. It is a physical newspaper with a different editorial team from the daily paper. Some of its articles are featured in the Herald Online, but the Herald Online is not the Sunday Herald, not even when it dates its articles for a Sunday.

    133. @Heather McLean

      I have been ignoring the polls, since I started canvassing two months ago in Musselburgh.

      I am finding a lot more dont knows and yes voters,and as you say most of the dont knows are above 5(so leaning YES)

      I dont know anyone who has been polled by these companies and I honestly DONT believe them!

    134. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      @
      Croompenstein

      Depending on whether you believe the week ends or begins on a Sunday, that must the worst joke of this week past or the worst the incoming one or, even both.

      Do they have a Kerr as well to complete the line up. perchance?

      I’ll get my fur coat.

    135. Abaron Nomore says:

      While I am aware that money spent on supporting Sunday Herald will indirectly benefit the unionist daily Herald, I regard it as more important to show that a pro-Indy line leads to sustained higher circulation.

      Their circulation levels will be keenly watched by other newspapers and if it helps to encourage even a little more even-handedness from any other publication, who surely would like a few more readers too, that would be well worth my £1.30.

      If we sit back surly and suspicious and refuse to buy it, Magnus Gardham for one will be cock-a-hoop.

    136. Croompenstein says:

      @BtP – 🙂

    137. Grouse Beater says:

      Panda

      Many thanks for your intervention. Troll now removed.

    138. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      @ Croompenstein

      I have been banned for less on Newsnet, the old Herald and the BBC.

    139. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Campaign medals, with pride.

    140. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Croompenstein –

      I don’t really follow football, but someone told me Athletico have signed a new goalkeeper as well. He’s Korean, I think – Wan Floo Bi.

    141. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      and I forgot the Telegraph, ffs!

    142. cynicalHighlander says:

      Mike seems to want to only hear one side of a debate as long as it is his view thankfully a true democracy doesn’t work like that and regarding the poll non of any paper employs a phesolygist

    143. Dan Huil says:

      Interesting letter in today’s Sunday Herald [the inky edition] from a correspondent who works for Ipsos Mori which says their recent opinion poll has been binned by the Cabinet Office [who commissioned it] because it shows a good return for Yes.

    144. call me dave says:

      Mr Bateman asks labour to come clean after YES.

    145. JLT says:

      Grouse Beater says:

      Wee Dougie Alexander “calls on the spirit of John Smith for the No vote.”

      It is rumoured he added: I see dead people.

      He probably does. Every morning when he looks in the mirror.

    146. cynicalHighlander says:

      Shit pressed send instead of looking how to spell a polling number analyst, bring back the edit button.

    147. Croompenstein says:

      @Ian – the corny wans are the best 🙂 btw one of the undecided only meetings is in your neck of the woods at the Ardeer centre on the 29th. Guess you won’t be going?

    148. Tam Jardine says:

      JLT

      Agreed – when the polls start coming out with narrow Yes leads (and the buried poll is a hint that we may not be far away) then the central pillar of the No campaign crumbles.

      They have banged on interminably that No would win and that the majority of the public were no ie they SHOULD win because they WILL win. It was a fairly weak argument before and they are going to have to come up with something better when the polls go against them.

      Maybe even find that elusive ‘positive case for the union’. Its a rare bird- heard of but never seen or heard. Whatever they come up with, it will be a desperate rearguard action.

      Re ongoing SH non-debate: if the Sun comes out endorsing Yes I will be giving passers by in the street high fives- regardless of the fact I detest everything Murdoch stands for and would never buy a copy. My enemies enemy and aw that.

      Sunday Herald is the best we have in the mainstream press and should be cherished.

    149. Dcanmore says:

      Better Together are now in delusional land, in the distance, far off, never to come back. The reason the pro-Union Labour-supporting Sunday Mail has reported this in a low-key fashion is because they smell something fishy. They are quite happy to print guff from BT as long as the information can be backed up with legit sources however much spin they decide to put on it (sans rants from freelance columnists and commentators which are personal opinions). On this occasion the newspaper has went WTF at this rubbish while glancing at the non-British Polling Council source with a laughable YouGov tag on it to try a claim some legitimacy.

      The Rev might as well use some of the donated monies to start up his own non-British Polling Council company and then just make it up as he goes along because that is all we have here from ‘Progressive Polling’ and the Sunday Mail/DR team know it. Better Together are sailing into dangerous waters here with their pals in the Scottish MSM which can only signal more desperate times ahead for the non-grassroots Union campaigners.

    150. Chic McGregor says:

      @gordoz
      “The Scottish Secular Society is supporting a YES vote in the Scottish independence referendum.”

      Thank God for that!

      Sorry,… sorry.

    151. Croompenstein says:

      I think the Sunday Herald gave us all a boost and it sent it a GIRUY to Better Together. It only does well because we all went and bought it and if that helps Gardham so be it but don’t knock it, at the moment they are all we have in MSM.

    152. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      @ Chic, I think they are secular and not humanist unless etc

      Anyway I agree with both sentiments.

    153. G H Graham says:

      The Herald group of papers is hemorrhaging print readers while its online readership has soared.

      But most of the money it makes still comes from printing & distributing hard copies from which it attracts decent advertising rates. The online readership is many times higher but ad rates on line are comparably very low so it makes very little money despite addicted posters such as the infamous John MacIntyre making an arse of himself daily.

      Thus, accountants have had a stab at reversing the print sales decline by puffing last week that the Sunday edition is officially pro independence.

      Either way, whatever they print, is invariably, bar from a few rare experts, poor quality journalism. And any money generated from the Sunday editions, props up the weekly edition from which the editors will continue to publish more puerile rubbish.

      If reading a Sunday edition makes you happy, carry on. But know that you are also supporting the continuation of viciously skewed propaganda.

    154. Granpa Broon says:

      More than half of voters could reject independence. Well I think it means that No is on 51% and Yes at 49%. To be honest I think that Yes is already ahead but if it gets out there will be a flood of people switching to Yes to be on the winning side.

    155. galamcennalath says:


      Tam Jardine says:
      They have banged on interminably that No would win and that the majority of the public were no ie they SHOULD win because they WILL win.

      There have only been two real arguments BT have used to support their case …. The one above. That they are the representatives of the majority. That argument dies when the polls suggest differently.

      The other is all the nonsense about striding the world stage with a big stick. Most Scots don’t care much for that imperialist stuff anymore.

      That leaves BT with no arguments left!

    156. castle hills chavie says:

      Magicpants.

      If the Rev can give you my e-mail address, contact me. I’m with the YES Springburn and Maryhill campaign.

    157. gordoz says:

      @Croompenstein

      “Lots of the events coming up by Yes are for undecided only, was thinking of going along but how do you act so f*cking stupid to blend in as an undecided?”

      Just ask for more information .. from both sides 🙂

    158. Mike says:

      Morag

      You don’t think the Herald online is physical?

      “There’s no such paper as the Herald on Sunday?”

      Im not the one suggesting there is.

    159. Chic McGregor says:

      Agree the Herald, Sunday v Weak Day, online thing is confusing. Clearly the SH should have its own on line presence but I suspect internal accounting would make that problematic.

    160. Croompenstein says:

      The question is if we didn’t all buy it would they still have had that great front page? I like to think they would have but I may be wrong and it’s all down to the establishment conning us, but while they aren’t demonising our FM and ergo our people I will buy it.

    161. Breastplate says:

      Did I have my post deleted or have I posted it somewhere else? Hmm.

    162. Morag Graham Kerr says:

      I’ve heard the arguments, and I’m still buying it. It makes me happy.

      I was quite startled by the strength of my own reaction this morning, when I pulled the paper out of the letter-box and eschewed Wings for newsprint to read over breakfast. There at last was some of the coverage I had hoped for and longed for when the referendum debate began.

      I was reading the Herald at the time of the 1979 and the 1997 referendums, and there were inspiring articles both times. There were probably dire warning ones as well, but I read it for the inspiring stuff. This time, till now, there’s been none of that. I don’t count occasional opinion pieces from Bell and MacWhirter.

      I was looking forward to similar this time, as part of balanced coverage. It didn’t happen, and I cancelled my Herald 18 months ago. Finally, the pro-indy articles and editorial pieces are here. All in one handy package delivered once a week.

      I am definitely up for it.

    163. Morag Graham Kerr says:

      Mike, you know perfectly well what I mean. The Sunday Herald is the dead-tree paper and no more than that.

      The Sunday Herald is the paper which supports independence. Not the Herald Online. Some SH articles are included in the Herald Online, that’s all.

      If you don’t like the Herald Online, don’t read it. But don’t criticise the Sunday Herald, the thing that actually supports independence, on the basis of an article it didn’t publish.

    164. Democracy Reborn says:

      Re newspapers & on a more positive note…. according to the Guardian, the Daily Record suffered the biggest drop (11.76%) in year-on-year sales to April.

    165. Hugh Wallace says:

      On the subject of voting Green to keep UKIP out, have a read of this article before doing so. Take particular note of the last sentence of the last paragraph:

      http://lallandspeatworrier.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/vote-green-or-ukip-gets-it.html

      His latest post relates to the same issues.

    166. Chic McGregor says:

      PS As I suspected from the context, the above letter highlighted on FB is in the SH page 40.

    167. Chic McGregor says:

      @JLT, Grousebeater
      “Wee Dougie Alexander “calls on the spirit of John Smith for the No vote.”

      It is rumoured he added: I see dead people.

      He probably does. Every morning when he looks in the mirror.”

      At least it proves he’s not a Tory, they don’t see anything:

      http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f390/chicmac/VampsWee.jpg

      OK its an old toon.

    168. caz-m says:

      The BBC keep reminding us of the separatist movement in the Ukraine.

      Would the Bitter Together campaign not become the separatist movement in Scotland when we become an Independent Nation.

      It would be led by Blair(Rambo)McDougall, who vows to fight on until North Britain is returned to it’s rightful place as slaves to their Masters in the South.

    169. RichardG says:

      Hello folks, I’ve noticed a few comments on how we should vote to keep UKIP from winning a seat in the Euro election, and there is an indication hidden in one of the polls that came out today. On the UKpolling website I came across the data from the Survation Poll:

      Survation – Mail on Sunday; How do you think you would be most likely to vote in the European election, excluding don’t knows, Scotland only:

      Liberal Democrat 2.2%
      UKIP 9.2%
      BNP 1.7%
      Labour 28.3%
      Conservative 7.9%
      SNP 45.4%
      Green 5.3%

      This has been taken from a small number of respondents, and it would be great to get a larger Scotland-only poll, however I read this as an easy 3 seats for SNP, 2 Seats for Labour, and the last one is a toss up between UKIP, Tory and Green. If these sort of numbers are true on the day then I could even see 4/2 split between SNP and Labour? The difficulty I have with voting Green, is that you would have a larger vote than both the Conservatives and UKIP, maybe safer to go for SNP?

    170. magicpants says:

      Thanks to all who gave info about Yes stuff that can be accessed without needing a FB account. All links bookmarked.

    171. Croompenstein says:

      Watching a film called ‘The Bruce’ fair stirring the blood!

      Ollie Reed playing a Scotsman rather well and Brian Blessed playing Edward 1st

    172. ronnie anderson says:

      Could somebody bring a vidio from Yes Airdrie & Shotts &

      transfer it on to Wings, at Annan yesterday , man on

      horseback with union jack flag.

    173. Croompenstein says:

      @ronnie – man on horseback with union jack flag

      Oor Arb was at it and she said he was quite offensive, would be great if there is a video of the div

    174. ronnie anderson says:

      @Chic McGregor, Chic could you transfer the vidio from Yes

      Airdrie Shotts site on to here. give the people a laugh.

    175. ronnie anderson says:

      @Croompenstein, Stuart Gamble put it up on Yes Airdrie &

      Shotts but cant load it on here, come on Wings techo dept.

    176. Chic McGregor says:

      caz-m

      I think Ukraine is more analogous to the Northern (largely native American) semi-autonomous regions of Quebec who wanted to stay with Canada or even more so the South Ossetian referendum for leaving Georgia and rejoining the Russian Federation. Both were a no no as far as the UN were concerned. Straight independence is one thing and a difficult enough case to make to the electorate in a manner which serves democracy in terms of people being made aware of all the issues. It also invites accusation of interference by the outside agency involved.

      They, and Crimea, I’m pretty sure would have a much less contentious path, if they voted only for independence, then after a discretionary period, had a second plebiscite for joining the country of their choice.

      Incidentally, I think similar problems would apply if, say, an attempt was made to claim that Shetland or any other region should remain in the UK should they vote no.

      I think you are right, that the BritNats may well become a movement to pursue a new union with the rUK, not a movement with much chance of success, but it could only be described ‘separatist’ if they advocated that part of Scotland do so.

      And, to avoid the problems above, they would have to advocate independence from Scotland and then after a suitable time period had elapsed, join the rUK.

    177. Croompenstein says:

      topper – wee line from the film – Edward 2nd mither tells him to fall on Bruce with the full might of England and crush him once and for all..aye that turned oot weel.. 🙂

    178. RogueCoder says:

      Evening folks,

      Have read with interest the debate on here regarding Sunday Herald. We need to be careful not to lose sight of the goal here.

      All warfare is based on deception. And be under no illusions here – this is a war alright. Westminster has been waging a propaganda war against Scots for decades telling us we’re all too poor, too wee etc etc, because they want to continue stealing our resources.

      The No camp are digging out out every scare story they can get their hands on regardless of how ludicrous it is, paying hundreds of thousands of pounds to PR agencies to produce astroturf, and hundreds of HM Gov civil servants to prepare economic “papers” designed to frighten people into voting no so that they can continue to be bled dry by the troughers in Westminster and the City. There is no democracy in this country, only a thin veneer designed to protect the guilty few whom have profited at the nation’s expense.

      I picked up Better Together’s latest economic paper today that reiterated the lie that we can’t use the pound. They selectively picked quotes from 50 different economic sources to prop up their assertion that Scotland won’t get a currency union. You know what that tells me? They’re scared. If they had any actual arguments then they wouldn’t need to produce a piece of propaganda like that. They are desperately seeking to intimidate enough people to secure a No vote.

      They have the BBC, every national newspaper, and Whitehall behind them – but we’re still here, and the Yes vote is increasing. We just need to keep the message positive and remind people that the same lies got trotted out in 79 and 97; Scots have nothing to fear from being independent. Only Westminster fears that.

      So we need to take advantage of every opportunity given us. Maybe the Sunday Herald declaring for Yes is a cynical ploy to arrest plummeting sales – I don’t think so myself – but who cares either way? We should use every resource at our disposal to reach every single voter in Scotland.

      Even MSM newspapers occasionally print the truth. Even if we only get one positive article in there among the hundred bashing Salmond and calling him a dictator, that one article might be enough to sway an undecided’s mind. That’s worth a heck of a lot more than £1.30. And eventually the publishers will cotton onto the fact that the only newspapers selling are the ones giving Yes an even hand. Johnstone Press (Scotsman owners) have just refinanced their debt for £360m. How long do you think they’ll continue to chuck good money after bad in defending a losing position? The press will start switching as soon as they see Yes overtaking No in the polls. And the Rev has got a fine war chest for many, many polls – so we don’t need to take YouGov’s word for it.

      We need to be relentlessly positive in every medium we can access. That’s how we will win this vote, and it’s how we’ll get our long deserved freedom and an opportunity to restore democracy and equality to Scotland.

    179. Davie Hay says:

      Mike is at it.

    180. Chic McGregor says:

      Ronnie
      Whit video?

      This yin?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tZ3jvTkmmc

    181. haud on the noo says:

      Scottish Canine Society advocates YES.

      Thank Dog fur that..

    182. Albert Herring says:

      @Croompenstein

      There’s only wan Juan.

      (sorry everywan)

    183. Morag Graham Kerr says:

      That is a beautiful horse. And beautifully trained (and dare I say it ridden) to carry a banner. (My own normally placid pony would have freaked out if he’d been asked to tolerate that.)

      Just a pity the rider is such a nasty piece of work.

    184. Morag Graham Kerr says:

      There was actually a pro-indy poster some years ago who called himself Juan Kerr. He spun some silly line about a Spanish mother which some people actually believed, although they wouldn’t have if they’d done a “sounds like” on the alleged brothers he was claiming.

      There really are guys saddled with the name “Ewan Kerr” though, including a well-known rugby player I think. I googled it at the time, while stuffing a hanky into my mouth to stifle the lols.

    185. Liquid Lenny says:

      Chic McGregor

      Re the Shetlands, there not a separate people, its a myth their all descended from Vikings, mainly Ayrshire and Galloway according to the DNA Evidence!!! Anyway the Orkneys and Shetlands are owned by the Scottish Crown. The Land was given to the Scottish Crown in lieu of Marriage duties the King of Norway pawned it to the Scottish Crown. However it was Scottish before the Vikings got their hands on it.
      Additionally even if the Shetlands/Orkneys voted to be separate from Scotland, they would become like a Crown Dependency like the Isle of Man, that means a 12 mile territorial limit meaning all the oil would remain in Scottish Waters.

    186. ronnie anderson says:

      @Chic Mc Gregor yupt thats the wan, he appeared 1st in a

      4×4 then went home & got his horse, hes a member of the

      common riders.

    187. Liquid Lenny says:

      Morag

      Juan Kerr is a sort of colloquialism for “Wanker”

    188. fergie35 says:

      Denial, or something more sinister from Team better together (which includes Mi5)

    189. Croompenstein says:

      @Chic – a bonny horse but whit a f*cknut riding it!

    190. YESGUY says:

      Mike and Morag . Enough please …… Agree to disagree etc etc

      No in fighting over trivial matters.

      We are united for the sake of our country.

      kiss n makeup now

    191. Chic McGregor says:

      I sense it is time to replay some of the gags only Scots would understand.

      1.
      Women walks into a butchers.
      Woman:”Is that yir Ayrshire bacon?”
      Butcher, standing with back to the fire:”Naw, Ah’m jist warmin mah hauns.”

      2.
      Q: Hoo dae ye mak a Ouija Board?
      A: Stert talkin aboot Embra.

      3.
      Tam: “Mah wife went tae yin o the lesser visited Carribean Islands oan her holiday last year”
      Shug: “Haiti?”
      Tam: “Naw, she cuild hae goan tae yin o the mair popular yins if she wantit.”

      4.
      Tam: “Me and the wife went tae a wee coastal toon in Yorkshire last week.”
      Shug: “Whitby?”
      Tam: “Coach trip.”

      5.
      Tam: “A bus Ah wis oan yince in the Balkans hid a bomb that went aff.”
      Shug: “Bosnia?”
      Tam: “Naw, it wis in the ower-heid luggage rack.”

    192. call me dave says:

      Blushing!… Just worked that out after some puzzlement. I don’t get out and about enough.

    193. Croompenstein says:

      @Chic – How do you become a great poet? – Stand in front of the fire till your Rabbie Burns!

      How do you become a great actress? – Stand in front of the fire till your Googie Withers!

      How do you become a lying git? – Stand in front of the fire till your Blair McDougall!

    194. ronnie anderson says:

      @Chic Mc Gregor, Ur you on the swally noo Chic PMSL.thanks for that vid.

    195. caz-m says:

      Chic

      Totally agree with everything you said there. lol

      But we still need to fit Blair McDougall into our outcome.

      I would just love Blair McD to be known as a separatist.

    196. ronnie anderson says:

      Has anybody made contact with Conan yet.

    197. Lesley-Anne says:

      Sorry if this has been reported earlier but just seen this from Stewart Hosie.

      The full results from today’s @RIDundee @YesDundee #indyref #MassCanvass were Yes 245, Undec 182, No 81 NV 26.

      Better Together might want to rethink their *ahem* claims here I think. 😛

    198. Tam Jardine says:

      Rogue coder

      You nailed it. Relentlessly positive is hard under heavy fire but I see, after the dam busters assault in February and constant attacks throughout March, after all the personal attacks of April the Yes side are stronger for it. The Yes vote is hard, it’s entrenched and it is reaching out all over the country.

      We have weathered a storm and the opposition are by now wondering what hellish tactics they need to deploy to stem the tide. That is there weakness though tactics in place of conviction, ideas and a positive vision. Christ, they have not come up with anything.

      I agree it is a war, and am waiting for the worst they can chuck at us. Just waiting for the real dark arts to emerge.

      But I like your plan to project relentless positivity. It’s a winner.

      Great post- appreciate it.

    199. Democracy Reborn says:

      @RogueCoder

      Great post, agree with everything you say.

    200. Croompenstein says:

      @Ian – Athletico have signed a new goalkeeper as well. He’s Korean, I think – Wan Floo Bi

      I think Aberdeen have just signed him.. 🙂

    201. Lesley-Anne says:

      Sorry I’m O/T here but just a wee update about our *ahem* interaction with the local businessman who is the Standard Bearer for Annan Riding of the Marches this year in Annan High Street yesterday.

      http://tinyurl.com/mfay7et

      If I were a unionist, and thankfully I’m not 🙂 , then I would be seriously wanting to ask serious questions of the Annan Riding of the Marches Committee. I’m not a unionist but thought a wee question or two should be asked so a wee e-mail has been sent off to the organising committee. I just wonder if anyone on this *ahem* committee will have the guts to actually do anything about him. 😉

    202. Chic McGregor says:

      RogueCoder

      Good post.

      My one concern is that Scots women ‘seem’ to be possibly responding to U-scaremongering in the way they hope.

      We, shall we say, ‘less complicated’, males must hope that that is not actually the case and that it is more that our womenfolk are simply taking longer to avail themselves of and appraise the evidence.

      So my question is, if, however, it does eventually seem the case that scaremongering is a primary motivating factor in particular for the lassies, should there be at some point an effort made to point out the very negative effects of remaining in the Union?

      I do instinctively understand the unattractiveness of such a ploy, but since in this case, the end is so very important, for once, it might actually justify such means.

      I’m undecided on this myself.

    203. caz-m says:

      Anyway, not long until the World Cup starts.

      http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Fans+Gather+England+Opening+Game+2010+World+w2KgmjOeVpel.jpg

      Worth another few thousand YES votes.

    204. Chic McGregor says:

      PS I did put in a ‘(duck, help me Rhona)’ but I used the wrong kind of brackets so it dodn’t show.

    205. Liquid Lenny says:

      Chic McGregor
      I understand that pointing out what happens if we vote no is planned for later in the campaign.

    206. Paula Rose says:

      @ Chic McGregor – have you not worked it out? All you boys out leafletting, going to meetings, knocking on doors – gives the lassies a bit of peace.

    207. Morag Graham Kerr says:

      The more I see that video, the greater my adminstion of the way that horse doesn’t react to the flag. There are police horses who are worse than that.

    208. Morag Graham Kerr says:

      “My wife just left for the West Indies.”

      “Jamaica?”

      “No, she went of her own accord.”

      I’ll be here all week….

    209. Free at 63! says:

      I’m female and definitely voting Yes. My 27-year-old daughter-in-law is voting yes but probably because my youngest son has bombarded her and her Grandfather is a Yes too. She is going to turn up at the Yes Clydebank stall next Saturday with my grandson who will be a vote Yes winner – such a happy boy and a redhead too!

      Agree with you Rogue Trader. We have to win this.

    210. caz-m says:

      Lesley=Anne

      Are you from Annan???

    211. ronnie anderson says:

      Following on from the 10.000 Saltire,s

      with the Commonwealth Games coming up hows about another

      crowdfund to give people small Saltires with Wings logo at

      every venue.

      Rev whats the possibility.

    212. Chic McGregor says:

      Paula
      You might say that but I couldn’t possibly comment. 🙂

      Thing is, all the women I know, my wife, her sister, my neighbour all the women in Kirrie of whom I actually know their view, are decidedly Yes supporters so I’m only going by the reported, and to me surprising, poll reports. Especially the young women result which indicates 68% are NO.

      I don’t know if the fear factor theory, as posited by some, including some women themselves, is correct. I hope and think, it may well be wrong and that the ladies are just taking their time.

      But if it turns out it is correct, in your opinion, would we be justified in fighting fire with fire?

    213. lumilumi says:

      (Sorry, haven read all the above comments, so apologies if this has been pointed out already)

      The thing about polls…

      It’s starting to look dodgy and like the NO camp is resorting to use polls conducted by some marketing company which is not a member of the British polling association or whatever it’s called (Scottish_Skier would know, he bangs on about this.)

      Basically, this market research company does not have to apply stringent, scientific methodology in their sampling or weighting/analysis of the raw data or publish their questions and tables and methodology for public scrutiny. So their results are pretty worthless.

      The YES/NO gap has been narrowing for months though even in the most YES-friendly polling company polls YES is behind – but rising.

      I just don’t see the point of BT spinning polls. They’re selectively comparing apples with oranges when they selectively compare polls from different polling companies.

      Maybe the aim is to project an idea (with the help of the compliant MSM and the BBC) that indy won’t happen, thus maintain their “default” position.

      But this could backfire spectacularly.

      On the one hand, if soft NOs think it’s all in the bag, they won’t bother going to the polls on 18 Sept. The complacency factor.

      On the other hand, yessers see that there’s still work to be done, no room for complacency, and redouble their efforts in the grass roots campaign.

      I’ve only done basic statistics and polling at uni (unrelated to my degree but I was a bit of an anorak even back then) but it seems clear to me that this is not a party political thing. The indy referendum is so unprecedented, so unique, that all polling companies are grappling in the dark to get their methodology (weighting) right.

      Serious polling companies (members of that body S_S keeps mentioning) have no political interest either way but they have a business interest to be able to predict the result as closely as possible.

      Holyrood 2011 elections left a lot of egg in the face for the polling companies so maybe they’ve been honing their methodologies. Or maybe not. Maybe they still live in the London bubble and have no idea of what is going on in Scotland.

    214. Lesley-Anne says:

      I admit I was more impressed with the traffic that built up as he held them up at the traffic lights so he could shout his abuse at us. I half expected at least one vehicle to blow their horn, I don’t normally condone such action but on Saturday well all I’m saying is I was surprised… 😛

      I don’t what you’re there Morag but keep taking the meds they seem to be working. 🙂

      I don’t live in Annan caz just outside it in Eastriggs, safe enough away for the people of Annan to live in safety without fear of bumping into me. 😛

    215. Chic McGregor says:

      Morag
      “The more I see that video, the greater my adminstion of the way that horse doesn’t react to the flag. There are police horses who are worse than that.”

      I think if I were that horse, with an owner like that, I would be scared to blink.

    216. Morag Graham Kerr says:

      That horse isn’t scared. That’s a pro act.

    217. Ken500 says:

      Or

      More than half of voters could welcome Independence.
      More than half of voters could welcome Independence.
      More than half of voters could welcome Independence.
      More than half of voters could welcome Independence.

      More than half of voters will vote for Independence.
      More than half of voters will vote for Independence.
      More than half of voters will vote for Independence.
      More than half of voters will vote for Independence.

      The Polls are skewed.

    218. Chic McGregor says:

      @Liquid Lenny
      Yeah, well if we are going to do it, that would make sense.
      But if we are, it had better not be too late.

    219. Chic McGregor says:

      Morag
      “That horse isn’t scared. That’s a pro act.”

      I bow to you superior equine knowledge (mine is nil).

    220. Lesley-Anne says:

      Morag Graham Kerr says:

      That horse isn’t scared. That’s a pro act.

      Thanks for that Morag that explains everything mow. We were all seriously concerned about the horse, we wondered if it had a chiropractor booked for later in the day. Still think it would have been funny to see him get thrown and then try and get back on, I have my doubts he’d manage it on his own. He would not have received any help from us Yessers of course because understandably we would all be too busy doing other things…like laughing at him. 😛

    221. Croompenstein says:

      @lumilumi – I just don’t see the point of BT spinning polls

      Lumi the game would change 360 degrees if a respected poll puts yes in front, they have to maintain the charade that No will win. Their campaign will crumble if MSM have to report that Yes are in the lead. I hope the polls don’t put us in front as their complacency will be their undoing.

    222. ronnie anderson says:

      @Lesley-Anne, he should have been reported to the Police

      if not to the RSPCA, his Equestrian Insurance should be

      withdrawn, as a rider in my younger days I never behaved

      like that clown, also I was told a young Cop asked for any

      NO badges & asked about his pension, if there witnesses to

      that, he should be reported.

    223. NickR says:

      I find the stream of polls confusing and they don’t accord with my circle of friends and acquaintances. My own take is that:

      1) A majority of males I know will vote yes
      2) The female vote is far less certain and in my circles there is a slight majority for no which I interpret as fear of the unknown/don’t upset the applecart
      3) I am an accountant and find generally, in the professions there is still a majority for No. Whether thats down to the lack of certainty, I don’t know.

      Overall though, I tend to believe that in my circles Yes probably leads so every time I see one of these polls I scratch my head and wonder who is being asked what?

    224. liz says:

      @Chic Murray – I know this video is a ‘pick’ of different views but what comes across is the women speaking are talking about family, friends, allies etc and this might give a clue into the mind set of the way in which a lot of women think.

      https://t.co/wCeQHhlMtV

    225. Ken500 says:

      Interesting video of a bigot from Biggar? : – )

      Caught in the act.

      The horse with the Mister Angry rider. SSPCA should be consulted. The Borderers made of sterner stuff.

    226. Morag Graham Kerr says:

      Ronnie, for the tenth time, the RSPCA doesn’t operate in Scotland. Not even in Annan. The SPCA get really narked about this.

      Anyway they’d chase anyone who complained about that, for wasting their time. If he was riding recklessly then the police might be interested, but I didn’t see anything like that.

    227. Morag Graham Kerr says:

      The SSPCA, even.

    228. Ken500 says:

      Women keep their intentions close to their chest. Can be very surprising. A major upset might arise for the No campaign.

    229. Lesley-Anne says:

      ronnie anderson says:

      @Lesley-Anne, he should have been reported to the Police

      if not to the RSPCA, his Equestrian Insurance should be

      withdrawn, as a rider in my younger days I never behaved

      like that clown, also I was told a young Cop asked for any

      NO badges & asked about his pension, if there witnesses to

      that, he should be reported.

      Thanks for that ronnie. There’s a YES South Annandale meeting on Wednesday night I’ll mention it to then. As Henry mentioned earlier today on another thread we had around 60 people at our Super Satuday event yesterday. Not everyone was present when the Muppet shouted out his “Nationalist Scumbag” abuse and “you should go back home North if you’re voting YES” racist remarks.

      The video shows him the second time he appeared. The first time he was in his Land rover, and the third time was when he re-appeared on his horse coming down the side road to the left of where he is in the video.

    230. Morag Graham Kerr says:

      Why is everyone going on about the RSPCA or the SSPCA anyway? They’ve got more to do than look at videos of a beautifully trained and perfectly happy horse.

      Just because we don’t like the rider doesn’t mean he’s causing unnecessary suffering to his horse!

    231. caz-m says:

      Lesley-Anne
      Is there anyone from Annan that is on Wings??

      I used to work in Annan and was wanting a wee update on what was happening down there.

      Had a great time in Annan.

      wink.

    232. Morag Graham Kerr says:

      And for goodness sake, don’t bother the police either. So he was rude and shouty. Can’t we take a bit of rude and shouty without running to the cops?

    233. Lesley-Anne says:

      Morag Graham Kerr says:

      Why is everyone going on about the RSPCA or the SSPCA anyway? They’ve got more to do than look at videos of a beautifully trained and perfectly happy horse.

      Just because we don’t like the rider doesn’t mean he’s causing unnecessary suffering to his horse!

      You didn’t see the look on the horse’s face Morag. 🙂

      I’m certain that if there was a Horses for Independence Facebook page that horse would be a member. 😛

    234. Molly says:

      Evening, playing catch up again and I know this is OT but wondered if anyone on Wings could tell me?

      Reading about Trident and ‘defence experts’ questioning how quickly it could be removed but can anyone explain to me because I don’t understand this?

      The argument is, Trident is too difficult to be removed quickly but will need renewed. If we vote No and the plan is to renew the system, has Westminster published where it intends to dispose of the Trident system?

      Did anyone else hear the ex soldier talking on Call Kaye, where less than 10 years after the war, Wick was the chosen place for MOD ‘tests’. Which bit of Better Together does that fit into?

      Sorry if you’ve covered this as I say just trying to catch up

    235. Lesley-Anne says:

      Sorry for going O/T but it appears that we might be in a wee spot of bother here. The Scots Tory Youth Conference was due to be held in Edinburgh yesterday apparently. Here’s the report of the massively attended event.

      http://tinyurl.com/loa4wbs

      TWELVE tickets sold. WOW! How on earth do we stand a chance of fighting these high numbers of up and coming unionists. 😛

    236. Liquid Lenny says:

      Im sure the poor horse has been nagged to vote neigh, however its not a shoe in, he is not going to tip his forelock to anybody.

      The horses had a show of hands and asked their neighbours and they all agreed that they were not going to have long faces and be saddled with the UK’s debt. They all agreed if it wasn’t a YES they were going to emigrate to Maine

    237. Lesley-Anne says:

      LOL Nice one Liquid. 😛

    238. Ken500 says:

      Trident

      Hammond keeps on giving different versions of the basic lies. One time it it was 3 years and £27Billion to remove Trient – evidence to the Westminster Committee, or alternative shit stirring waste of pathetic time. A Labour MP Flynn? walked out of the Committee, complaining it was just an exercise to try to embarrass the Scottish government. The first time any Labour/Unionist spokesman has got something right.

      Then the next version. 2026 removal or whatever version. Just pass it along the line. Basically Hammond and the rest of the useless goons don’t known. Await the next version with interest.

      A

    239. Paula Rose says:

      @ Molly 11:38 – yes I’d like to know as well.

    240. Ken500 says:

      The BT UKOK video is surprising. How can anyone believe that garbage?

    241. ronnie anderson says:

      @Morag G K, ok my mistook SPCA, anyhow if a driver were to

      take exception to that clown the situation could have been

      serious a bolting horse has no brakes no matter how good a

      rider he thinks he is.

    242. Liquid Lenny says:

      Molly
      Wasn’t only Wick, remote parts of England were considered as well so we were better together, but in the end they decided that the Australians were expendable, thank god for the Empire eh?

      Re Trident. they don’t have anywhere for it to go, probably the only place is on the US Eastern seaboard.
      Its where the Yanks base their Trident subs and since they are effectively under Yankee control anyway if they want to strut the World Stage that is an option for them

      They probably will depose of them as close to Scotland as possible, probably Barrow in Furness where they were built.

    243. Ken500 says:

      The Cops are not paid to be loud and shouty. Especially as the loud and shouty general public can be detained by the loud and shouty Cops. Double standards.

    244. Ken500 says:

      Why did Mr Angry go and get a horse? To try and intimidate the lawful campaigners or use the horse as an offensive weapon. Aka Trident. The horse’s nickname. Or was it a cowardly act of aggression using an innocent animal (the horse) as a barrier.

    245. Lesley-Anne says:

      I’m thinking it was so he could show the world just how big a coward he really is. Typical unionist thinking he must be on high to look down on the minions. Unfortunately for him his actions brought more people over to YES thanks to his arrogance and abuse.

      It’s Annan harbour festival this Saturday and I’m thinking of booking him, if he is free, to come down to the harbour and give a repeat performance. 😛

    246. Chic McGregor says:

      Liquid
      Nice one, but would the Queen still reign? Arguably, more stable, according to Gallop anyway. I know, easy to trot out alternative tacks, but, here’s the bit, many in Clydesdale and further a field, think she harnesses a lot of support and whips up foreign interest, whether Argentinian, Persian or Arab. No Trojan’s attached to this post.

    247. lumilumi says:

      @ Croomperstein 11.18pm

      I hope the polls don’t put us in front as their complacency will be their undoing.

      Well, that was rather my point.

      If BT want to lull themselves into false complacency, with the help of the compliant media, fine.

      YES is behind in the polls, it makes all the dedicated volunteers work the harder.

      I’m just not so sure the UK polling companies understand the intricacies of the indy referendum and have the methodologies to cope with it. They weigh by WM or Holyrood party political vote and don’t capture the fact that indy isn’t party political.

    248. lumilumi says:

      Oh, and might I add my voice to recommend RogueCoder’s comment above @ 9.39pm yesterday.

      Very good and measured and down to the point.

    249. Chic McGregor says:

      @Liz
      ‘Chic Murray’

      Suitably admonished.

    250. Lesley-Anne says:

      Just found out on Twitter that Douglas Alexander is to speak at the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland. I wonder who will be speaking for the YES side. Oh wait a minute there will not be any one from YES because they have not been invited, this is the only way they could get Alexander up to Scotland to speak. 😛

    251. Molly says:

      Thanks, I just don’t understand if the system is decrepit they are going to have to remove it soon so why are they saying it’ll take years ( barring the obvious politicking) for it to be removed if /we vote Yes?

      Can’t seem to get past , he said , she said stuff and find any quotes about Westminsters published plans for the dismantling of it, just a lot of treacle to wade through from Labour/ Libdems about renewal.

    252. Training Day says:

      @NickR

      Your experience of intentions at this stage mirrors that of mine. To a tee. Males yes, women no/dunno, professions fearful of change.

    253. Lesley-Anne says:

      Well it looks like all the newspapers in Scotland are doing FANTASTIC in the sales department.

      http://tinyurl.com/ksd6fe2

      Oh wait a minute they’re NOT doing so great after all they have all suffered a drop in their sales…Oops! 😛

      I’m not sure why the Scotsman isn’t included in the figures nor is the Herald/Sunday Herald. 😉

    254. All these Better Together polls remind me of the USA presidential election polls. Pollsters were adamant that the republicans where ahead or neck and neck, even though the word on the ground was very different. it didn’t matter to them though and the media kept peddling the polls as accurate signs of public opinion, then BAM! The republicans were humiliated.

    255. and to add to that. I expect the same to happen to Better Together come referendum time. They’ve devoted themselves entirely to the medias interpretation of the polls.

    256. lumilumi says:

      @ Molly, 11.38pm

      I’d take any UK “expert’s” view with a pinch (or a bucket) of salt.

      They’re working the state propaganda against Scottish independence.

      Anyway, when Scotland votes for independence, the international community will have more of a say than tantrummy Westminster politicos about nuclear weapons in a newly independent Scotland.

      There’s this thing called nuclear non-proliferation treaty
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Non-Proliferation_of_Nuclear_Weapons

      When the USSR disintegrated, their nuclear weapons were moved pretty damn quickly away from the new independent states back to mother Russia. “The West” insisted on it. (Health and safety might not have been a primary concern, and Russia has hell of a lot more sparsely populated space than rUK.)

      Scottish independence is internationally important because it could quite conceivably lead to the UK (or whatever rUK call themselves after Scotland goes indy) losing its “nuclear deterrent” and maybe their permanent seat in the UN security council. (BTW, the UN security council has more non-permanent members than permanent. Normal countries take turns, only WWII winners have parmanent seats.)

      This is one of the big reasons the Westminster gang really, really don’t want Scottish independence. Because they might not be able to “punch above their weight” and posture on the international scene as if they still had an empire.

    257. liz says:

      @Chic Murray – sorry that’s not what I meant as I am also trying to understand why there is an apparent reluctance by a lot of women to support indy.

      It was just an observation from this video which might give an insight into the way a lot of women think – the ‘nurturing’ aspect.

    258. liz says:

      Sorry rev – ignore that post – wrong email address.

      @Chic Murray – sorry that’s not what I meant as I am also trying to understand why there is an apparent reluctance by a lot of women to support indy.

      It was just an observation from this video which might give an insight into the way a lot of women think – the ‘nurturing’ aspect

    259. Morag Graham Kerr says:

      But Ronnie, the horse didn’t bolt, and didn’t show any sign of bolting. By that token, nobody could ever ride a horse on a public road, just in case.

      Now maybe he did something against the law, but I certainly didn’t see it on that video so any accusation would need witnesses and would turn into a he-said-she-said argument. Just being obnoxious isn’t criminal. Nor is getting a horse and riding past a criminal offence.

      It doesn’t do any good to shout “report him to the police” every time an opponent does something obnoxious, whether it’s shouting at a street stall or writing a slimy article in the Telegraph.

      Shrug it off and walk away, until a real crime is committed and there is real evidence.

    260. liz says:

      Apologies again – it’s late – @ Chic McGregor

    261. Chic McGregor says:

      Its not nuclear deterrent we need, its nuclear detergent to clean out that pile of corrupta in Westminster and their Lackeys (with the emphasis on ‘lack’) in Scotland.

    262. Morag Graham Kerr says:

      And if we have anything left over, we can use it to clean out the Scottish legal establishment.

    263. Chic McGregor says:

      @liz
      Absolutely no apology required, I have a wife and two daughters who would tear me limb from limb even for mentioning the poll results. Even if they have themselves berated their gender over them. 🙂

    264. Chic McGregor says:

      Not that I was, berating the gender I mean, err [duck, help me Rhona].

    265. Ronnie says:

      @ Liquid & Chic,

      I think you two are just trying to stirrup trouble.

    266. Lesley-Anne says:

      Don’t know if you know anything about this Stu but I’ve just seen a couple of tweets indicating that only 25% of Scots are voting NO. They say it is a hidden Ipsos Mopi poll.

      http://tinyurl.com/kqqouem

      I’m still waiting to see if anyone can come up with a link to the alleged poll. 😉

    267. Col says:

      I actually bought a Sunday Herald today, first paper in a while but can`t seem to bring myself to read it. Think i`ve lost all trust if i`m honest and I don`t want to be let down by some garbage written to mislead instead of inform. Trust takes time to rebuild so i`ll be watching to see what comments are being generated from others who read the paper.

    268. john king says:

      BtP
      @ME 6.38
      “I think her had a feeling he knew”

    269. ian foulds says:

      ‘Andy-B says:

      11 May, 2014 at 6:22 pm

      I don’t like the tone of this, when UDA commanders and hard men start speaking up for the union, it opens up a whole new level of scaremongering, will it lead to loyalist violence in Scotland, over the referendum?.’

      Sorry I haven’t read any response comments but would like to say that if such a march does happen – this is a golden opportunity for all sane, right-thinking people, of all persuasions who are seeking a new Scotland, to stay away and let the ‘event’ be ‘celebrated’ as one would with a damp squib.

    270. Tamson says:

      @Lesley Anne 12:41,

      last year the Herald and Scotsman reclassified themselves as ‘regional’ papers, so they only report circulation figures on a 6-monthly basis. Think their next reporting date is August.

    271. Ken500 says:

      The Scotsman is virtually bankrupt. It is just a matter of time. Sky News?division (supposed to be separate from Murdoch) has just invested £5million but with debts of £360million (just restructured) it is a drop in the ocean. It’s just a matter of time. That is why they are so anti-Independence their debt structure, financed by London banks. That is why the No campaign is being financed by basically, indirectly London banks/Wedtminster political elites. Tax evasion. They will have to pay their fair rate of tax in an Independent Scotland.

      The Scotsman is in a dilemma if it’s own making and bad management. It is totally over extended and basically has falling markets. No one what’s to buy into it for obvious reasons – it is a bad loss making product. Unless it changes it’s editorial in Scotland and supports Independence, it’s sales will continue to fall. Based in Yorkshire it has always been Labour supporting. A true dilemma for bad management. Limping along withm the other publications south of the border (also loss making?) continue to support a loss making Scotsman. Basically bad business structure and bad management. The debts will be set against any property assets. Buildings or plant etc.

      The Herald Group (US owned?) gave the editors editorial freedom. The Sunday Herald editor based in Scotland decided for obvious reasons – local knowledge and conviction – to support Ibdependence. They supported Independence and Independence supporters should support the Editor who bravely, and with conviction, went out on a limb to support their cause. Other considerations are minimal. ‘Supporting the Group? etc. The Editor has stood up to be counted on behalf of his fellow citizens. Do not let him down, especially because of his honesty.

    272. Ken500 says:

      It is only in Glasgow under the corrupt GCC that these Marches are freely allowed and supported. A tiny minority of a bigoted Organisation. It is a public scandal for the whole of Scotland whose taxes have to support the corrupt GCC. No other Council is Scotland allows these bigoted Organisation to behave in such a way. Citizens in Glasgow are starving while GCC squanders taxes on bigoted Organisations. GCC corruption supports bigotry, which increases poverty and economic decline.

      Hopefully Edinburgh CC will make the right decision. A ban. . Political impartially.

    273. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “The difficulty I have with voting Green, is that you would have a larger vote than both the Conservatives and UKIP, maybe safer to go for SNP?”

      In short, yes:

      http://lallandspeatworrier.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/europe-through-looking-glass.html



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