Not you, Scotland
Posted on
January 31, 2017 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
The Tories yesterday:
And Labour today:
And the Lib Dems last week:
But Scotland? Scotland is another country. They do things differently there.
Does it matter to anyone anywhere now what Labour say on anything?
Is that what they mean when they say things like The UK and Scotland or We’ve done a UK wide survey from Portsmouth to Leeds
But still, today we’re another country, bet we’ll not be tomorrow or even this afternoon
I do know what a referendum is though it’s one of those things everybody else can get but we can’t have no matter if we want one or not
I think we should re brand ourselves as Scotlandshire. Apparently Scotland was extinguished by the Treaty of Union. For over 300 years we have been falsely claiming to be a different nation, and using various devices like having a football team, a rugby team, and military regiments bearing the name of a defunct nation.
We even have a pretend Parliament called the Scottish Parliament.
When oh when will people get it through their heads that England and many Of her people do not envisage us as a country at all. We are seen as a region and nothing more.
If journalists did their jobs properly, they’d be forcing Labour and the Lib Dems to explain the inconsistency any time they demand the SNP rules out a second referendum. And when they fail to explain it, they should state that in their articles or on their broadcast pieces or whatever.
And when we do have that second referendum, journalists should say “why is Scotland different to Ireland?” every time a unionist tries to say there will be border guards at Gretna and we’ll lose rUK trade. And again, when they refuse to answer, they should state that was the case.
But neither of those things will happen. Today, we had Kieran Andrews from The Courier dutifully reporting a Spanish MEP saying Scotland would be behind Turkey in the queue to join the EU. I told him he should have pointed out in the article that 16 members have joined since Turkey first applied, as that would allow readers to make up their own mind as to whether or not the MEP in question is speaking utter pish. Kieran’s since admitted it was a “good point”, but will that change how these things are reported in future? Nae likely.
Journalists need to start doing their jobs. “Holding politicians to account” does not mean “dutifully regurgitating whatever they say without providing any context or verification.” If they’re not going to do that, then why bother having a media? Just replace the Six O’Clock News with “The Six O’Clock Update From Downing Street” and have the government spokespeople tell us what they want us to think without bothering with a middleman.
Labour are funny. The man who defied his party whips 500 times is demanding labour mp’s follow the whip on article 50! very funny indeed. Corbyn is a spineless simpleton & his demoralized party are heading for the abyss. Trouble with that is a Tory future & a jagged english nationalism that’s now out in the open. We wanted an inclusive civic independence, they offer fascism’s wee brother.
They really make flagging the hypocrisy easy these days.
UK political parties create a constitutional and economic crisis within the UK and attempt to walk away from the consequences of their own actions. From their perspective, it simply wouldn’t do to draw too much attention to failed pledges and assurances, reneged upon outcomes and such. So where Scotland is concerned?
Everything fine and nothing to see here.
I’d imagine a lot of resident continental EU citizens and new Scots who possibly voted no, or indeed didn’t vote last time round may want to take issue with this change of material circumstance. Maybe disagree with the current darker societal turn of the UK and the politics of central government.
Ignoring the galactofeck doesn’t make it go away and ignoring the plea and argument of a valued and preciousssss partner? Mibbies not such a great plan either.
MP on Daily Politic today talking on Brexit referendum, complained, “point about Trust is important…we were told things were possible…we are now told not going to happen”
Not an SNP MP, our old friend, and Liar for Britain, Alistair Carmichael
Scotland, in perpetual steerage, relax enjoy the ride
I’m a bit confused.
Should the first quote not be along the lines of “Labour says no to indyref2”, “Once in a generation”, “Kezia says (insert head office text here)..” “Willie Rennie looks in the mirror”
maybe i need more coffee.
Ah, a seamless border for the grand island of Ireland.. the things that dreams are made of eh?
But not you, Scotland.
Don’t you just hate being told what you can’t and can’t do, ALL of the time.
Tis Scotlands time and turn to dance, SO let’s do the can-can.
Doug Daniels
Those journalists and politicians have the same agenda, to preserve Scotland’s ‘status’ as a useful resource.
Labour politicians grew fat and rose to high office on the back of the solid Labour vote in Scotland. It took the Ind ref to realise the ‘we only have one Tory MP’ was fairly meaningless when the UK governing force was Tory, and the 41 Slab and 11 LibDem MPs brought nothing to Scotland. There was never a solid united demand for resources to be allocated. It was always a gift, not a right.
I think we must conclude from the three quotations that the South British do not consider Northern Ireland to be an integral part of their Greater England, but Scotland definitely is.
David Davies delivers a threat today to Scotland in less than subtle language. He echoes Mrs Windsor in saying Scotland must be careful[!] in its reaction to brexit.
@Brian Powell
@Doug Daniels
An independent and critical media is an essential part of a fully functioning democracy.
When Scotland becomes a fully functioning democracy we will undoubtedly grow an independent and critical media!
I just heard Sir Keir Starmer stating that Labour had to abide by the result of the referendum as they were democrats. My question to that is, “Where was Labour’s democracy in 1979 when they refused to accept a majority vote in the Scottish Referendum”?
If Scotland must be careful in its reaction to Brexit the implication is that Scotland can actually do anything in response to Brexit. The Panelbase poll by changing the timescale, in a sense, from 2 to 3 years doesn’t give an option for no new referendum. Seems that there’s an underlying assumption that it’s going to happen again and simply can’t be prevented. The arguments from the unionists are simply about when rather than if.
Obviously if a referendum is called then the EU, or any other country, might want to know just who any proposed trade deal with be and whether it’s the current UK or a rUK without Scotland. In that light pressure might be brought internationally should Westminster try to prevent it taking place.
@Dan Huil
Shame no one thought to offer similar advice to Mr Davies.
HMG should have been ‘careful’ before attempting to alter the unwritten constitution of the UK on the back of newly legislated constitutional outcomes with Scotland?
Mind you, Conservative government and careful consideration of others…. 🙄
Why has EFTA not been pushed as a possible alternative to the EU before.
I think EFTA is the answer to all our prayers.
I am positive that EFTA will deliver Scottish Independence.
You’ll need to disinfect after reading this …
“‘We need to get on with this’ Tory Brexiteer blasts Sturgeon and tells her to stop moaning
A TORY MP has insisted Theresa May is listening to Nicola Sturgeon but the priority is to secure the best Brexit deal for the UK.”
Listening, my erse!
They should be honest and just say, “Scots need tae jist dae as they’re telt” …. sorry, Tory … “Scots should just do as they are told”.
link to archive.is
@Greannach says: 31 January, 2017 at 12:44 pm:
“Does it matter to anyone anywhere now what Labour say on anything?”
Yes! Of course it does.
It matters to Labour.
Everyone else says –
Eh! Labour? Who he?”
Unpredictable work commitments,means I don’t know where I will be next week,never mind,next month.
On that basis,I have made the best decision of this year so far….
50 smackaroonies donated to WoS.
😉
#IFeelGood
More disinfect needed …..
“Theresa May chaired talks … in Cardiff where SNP First Minister Nicola Sturgeon was again humiliated as her demands for a separate deal for Scotland were dismissed.”
Shrugs and sighs.
“Not you, Scotland”
link to archive.is
i agree
What is the point of this post? Are you saying in fact you agree with Labour and Lib dems that a second brexit referendum should be held…one that if it rejected Brexit would make the rationale for indyref2 redundant. Or do you agree with the Conservative position that the will of the British people has been expressed and that there is no need for a second referendum…a point equally valid for indyref2.
I’m sure it is very fun (and easy) highlighting the hypocrisy of others when you don’t have to address your own…
@Bob MACK says: 31 January, 2017 at 12:51 pm:
” … When oh when will people get it through their heads that England and many Of her people do not envisage us as a country at all.”
I’ve always found the most effective way to leave anyone who thinks that way was to ask them a simple question and then walk away.
What’s that Bob?
Oh! I see!
You want to know what the simple question is?
It is, “Where in this devolved United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland do the.MEPs (Members of the English Parliament), sit to run the devolved country of England?
Thrawn’s a pawn, who clearly wants a second referendum.
[…] Empty description […]
[…] Wings Over Scotland Not you, Scotland The Tories yesterday: And Labour today: And the Lib Dems last week: But Scotland? […]
…the Labour Party dream is a return to the “turns each” approach at Westminstet. It may take 10 years but eventually they will get back to the trough. Even when not in power they will get their allocation to the Lords.
That is the dream – a gentle swing between right of centre and more right of centre. The gap between rich and poor grows at varying rates as they take turns but it grows.
Labour will only get “their shot” if they appease the middle Engladers by being nearly Tories.
This is Scotland’s future and Scottish Labour have even less ambition for their nation.
The Westminster majority is determined by the values of middle England swing seats which will therefore ensure that we will always follow the Imperial path. Corbyn cannot win a majority until he toes that line. Hence a New Blair will be found.
….only Independence can change our future.
All but 3 Scottish MPs support Independence and Scottish Questions at Westminster reveal the contempt of that chamber towards Scotland. Red Tory asking Blue Tories questions about Scotland when they have ONE MP each.
As for the so called hypocrisy over borders…of course May wants a frictionless border with NI (and with Independent in EU Scotland)…thats because she wants zero tariffs between UK and EU but without giving up anything in return. Something Europe are (understandably) unwilling to do…so she will use (cynically) the threat of resumption of NI violance caused by a hard border to get it (her aim will be to convince/threaten Ireland to veto any deal that would result in a hard border requirement). That doesn’t mean she will get it of course…meaning ultimately hard border at NI and Scotland if necessary.
A comment in the Times today:-
@Roger Knight. “Yes. Especially because we want to insulate ourselves from fools who think that “elite”, “wealthy” and “clever” are terms of denigration. They are not.
We are in a global world and the elite and wealthy and clever are the only chance you have of this country making any form of a success of it.
Never forget that a small number of elite, wealthy and (for the most part) clever people support the rest of us.”
And I wonder how many of them are foreign nationals who moved here because of financial deregulation, and whose businesses are registered offshore in Tax havens, and who have no hesitation about money laundering the proceeds of organised crime, drugs, human trafficking and prostitution, not to mention the London based paedophile gangs which allegedly include members of the Houses of Lords and Commons.
Isn’t it comforting to know that we, who are so many, are being supported by so few, the elite and extremely wealthy 1%.
We must be the luckiest people on earth.
“Hey Scotland – we conned you into staying with the UK. Made you promises with the VOW and that the UK was the best way to secure your EU membership.
You FELL for our lies, Scotland. Not our fault you’re all so dumb up there. So – suck it up. You have no rights now that our lies convinced you to vote to stay in the UK. You gave up any rights you had in the UK when you voted NO in 2014. You were sovereign for that single day – hope it felt good. Ha ha ha!!
Deal with it, Scotland.”
I think the above pretty much sums up the Yoon attitude.
I’m watching live Parliament TV. Absolutely disgusting treatment by the speaker Bercow to the SNP MPs.
The rest of the other parties are allowed to jeer, heckle, sneer, but when the SNP backed up Stephen Gethins speech they were told off for heckling.
Why can’t folk see how badly Scotland,s wishes are laughed at and ignored? I blame the media, they encourage this behaviour.
If we had any MSM that supported Scottish Independence or were ALLOWED Scottish radio and TV stations, we would have Independence by now.
See how MSM managed to get thousands out on the street in Scotland demonstrating against Trump. However they do not support Scotland’s wishes and actively work against them.
‘That isn’t just a phrase. Actually it symbolises the sort of seamless, frictionless border that we want to see in the future’
The rUK threatening anything different from Ireland’s ‘seamless frictionless border’ to Scotland would be nothing more than colonial muscle flexing, and be seen for what it really would be, any empty intimidation threat purely to scare people into voting No.
Not sure even Westminster would want to embarrass themselves trying to use this one.
I can hardly wait for Mayhem to start constructing her wall along the border between her xenophobic country and my all welcoming country. It would be doubly pleasing if her wall was followed by her threat to stop trading with an independent Scotland. I say this all on the back of a tweet from Scruffy Fluffy’s office a couple of days ago where they confirmed that Scotland sells £6Billion (actually £5.8 Billion) of electricity to rUK.
I am no expert here but £6 Billion of electricity sounds an awful lot of leccy to be selling darn surf to me. This leads me to make the one unmissable conclusion… after indy with her wall in place and no trade with Scotland her xenophobic country is going to end up using one hell of a lot of candles in the long clod dark nights! 😀
There is of course raises one wee question about the electricity sold darn surf … where does this figure appear in the infamous GERS? (a question asked by a few on Twitter at the time.)
Personally I have come to the conclusion that the sale of leccy appears under WM heading of “unknown expenditure.” 😀
@orri and @Macart 1:28pm
Good points, both. Aye, I think the EU will definitely take Scotland’s side throughout this brexit mess. They will also hear Westminster’s threats towards Scotland.
“Independent Scotland would have to join back ‘of queue’ for EU membership” – reads the headline in RT today. Most of the piece is just regurgitated Scotsman. Very disappointed in RT.
Just checked an item on RT news website with the same old Spanish claim that we’d be at the back of the queue to join.
I thought that if we split from UK and opted to Remain we’d be classed as the “successor state” for EU membership purposes.
I tried to find a reference but couldn’t.
Any help anyone?
I believe Ms May regarding the Irish border. I think UK is preparing to dump NI in the very near future. Whether the republic want the place is another matter?.
Given that Mr Tusk and Guy Ver ( something) have today stated that the USA is becoming a danger to the EU, then what is to prevent the EU insisting Ireland has a hard border with the North? Just curious.
I wonder what’s happened to Dunc Hothersall’s ‘It’s democracy’ stance when it comes to May’s Brexit and May’s acceptance of Trump’s edicts?
He used to say if we get a Tory Government then that’s democracy, and’ you’ just bend over and take it, whatever that Gov hands out. Or rather everybody else should take it, as in, if they cause austerity then we just put up taxes in Scotland to pay for it.
So, ban immigration, OK? It’s democracy.
@Robert Knight,
The guy who said this is a right wing member of Spanish politics. He actually campaigned albeit in the background during indy ref 14.
Doug Daniel: “Journalists need to start doing their jobs.”
It’s best not to hope for too much. As Orwell wrote in 1941: “Is the English press honest or dishonest? At normal times it is deeply dishonest. All the papers that matter live off their advertisements, and the advertisers exercise an indirect censorship over the news.”
And Chomsky’s view of the bulk of western journalism being mere propaganda as a default might further dent any optimism.
There are of course little crepuscular rays that poke through every now and then, but we don’t need them. We can turn our back on them for now. Leave them to wither.
manandboy says:
Scotsman scraping the barrel, again. I would have thought RT knew better than just copy.
The EU will make the situation absolutely clear long before we vote in IndyRef2.
@ Bob Mack
Ireland vetoing any deal or EU action that results in hard border…if they are so inclined naturally
A Sinn Fein govt in the south might want a hard border…make moderate prostestants have to choose between UK + hard border (+ voilence) and reunification in EU
Watching the debate on A50 trigger.
Salmond and Gethins brilliant. AND good old Ken Clarke delivered a roasting to his party, even mentioning Enoch Powell, and the fantasy Wonderland everyone invited to in Brexit.
Keir Starmer asked for quiet whilst he delivered the eulogy at his party’s funeral. Disgusting, supine Opposition, who will be remembered for voting for this ruin.
Note the first paragraph of the first item,
” Meanwhile the PM reiterated the NEED for no ” return to the borders of the past”
There is pestiferous Albion at it’s best, “the need for no”, does not say there definitely won’t be. Another “normally” issue perhaps?
@ manandboy
RT can be quite refreshing at times, but the quality of much of its content is at Express level. Comments are sometimes good for a laugh, though. No holds barred lunacy.
It’s almost as if these britnat politicians actually want to see the break up of their precious so-called united kingdom. How else can you explain their attitude?
There’s no fucking queue to join the EU. It’s more like a waiting room. Plenty of countries have applied and joined since Turkey did. Entry to the EU is based on qualification.
With Donald Trump’s State Visit invitation, Theresa May continues to show that she lacks sound judgement in matters of political management. This is the CEO of GB Ltd who is charged with ‘getting the best deal’ in the forthcoming Brexit negotiations.
Sooner or later, the English electorate and the parliamentary Tory Party, are going to lose confidence in Mrs May and will then drop her, like they did Mrs Thatcher. Theresa will then be able to comfort herself with the thought that she followed Mrs Thatcher to the same end, even if the journey was much shorter and punctuated with errors of judgement.
Even now, those who see themselves inheriting No 10 Downing St from Mrs May, will be circling like vultures, watching her every stumble with growing interest and declining loyalty.
@Thrawn,
Yes I agree. Theresa May makes it all sound so easy. I have no doubt that there will be complications especially as you say that Sinn Feinn may see a potential for unification without the need for violence.
It is especially auspicious that the N Ireland exec at Stormont is in such disarray at this time. I think this is another serious potential banana skin for May.
Glad Gethins is up there. He’s one of the reasons I have any faith in the SNP. Nobody at our school was anywhere near as politicized as he was from such a young age, and he was always SNP – never flitted. Nice lad, too.
Galamcennalath
The EU will make the situation absolutely clear long before we vote in IndyRef2.
indeed, salmond pointed out that the eu has already stuck its neck out far further for scotland since the 23rd june than ever it did during indy ref 1
once indyref2 kicks of I await confirmation that an indy scotland would be welcome by the 4 efta countries, a simple yes or no would be sufficient
if we apply for eea membership under the a50 arrangements, scotland would only require a majority of the 27 eu members to say yes, and all uncertainty, wrt to scotlands position in the eu, immediately after a yes vote, will be immediately be removed
I suppose we’ll have to wait until after Article 50 is triggered before we find out how willing the EU are to help us out. We can expect more Spanish veto threats etc until then from the usual suspects. I hope it’ll be much more difficult for the Unionist press to find anti-Scotland EU sources to misquote after that.
@soutron
catalonia will have its indyref in sept so it could well be independent by the time scotland goes to the polls in indyref2
this will leave spain free to blackmail westminster over gibralta
we are now through the looking glass
Mc Whirter on Livestream now
OT Breaking News. Thousands of gay and bisexual men convicted of now-abolished sexual offences have been posthumously pardoned.
Is this SNP MP John Nicolson’s bill? I see no mention in the media of him getting credit.
Once article 50 is triggered and the member state (England UK) is on course for leaving the EU the other member states are then free to express their opinions as the negotiating team takes over as I understand it
I’m expecting a wee parade of EU leaders turning up at Bute House for Irn Bru and a McVities digestive, and if I’m correct let’s see the medias approach to that
Do they report on it, rubbish it, or do they bury it under car parked outside school and nearly hit a mother and pram featuring an ordinary Labour mother spotting a rat that’ll be filmed later that day in Govanhill the FMs constituency which is entirely all her responsibility
As well as the rat
Re Spain will veto blah blah blah
Link to newsnet article
link to twitter.com
link to twitter.com
I saw another tweet from an mp [I think] saying there is no queue
@Walter Scott says: 31 January, 2017 at 12:59 pm:
” … Trouble with that is a Tory future & a jagged english nationalism that’s now out in the open. We wanted an inclusive civic independence, they offer fascism’s wee brother.”
The thing is, Walter, that the Westminster Establishment is nothing more than a sham and it basically has been in place since the Romans arrived and set up Londinium and became the southern ruling elite that treated the aboriginal south Britons as slaves.
The Roman Empire made no pretence to actually running each of the Roman Empire’s member states. Instead they Romanised the former member state’s leaders and had them run it for Rome under a Roman General governor. They set up a customs & Excise System, had a census, and taxed the natives. In effect they took the benefits of each state for the good of Rome. The Romans left after several hundred years and the south Britain leaders were left to get on with running south Britain but note that even then North Britain remained free.
The South Britons now had little knowledge by way of defence for Romans had done that for centuries so the South Briton leaders, who were already being raided by the Germanic Tribes, mainly from the Scandinavian regions of Europe, invited these Angles, Jutes, Saxons and a few other Germanic Tribes to come and protect them from attacks. The same thing was going on in what became France and there the invited Norsemen were offered their own area and it became known as Norseman Land, (Normandy).
Yet still the North Britons remained free and the Anglo Saxons not only were the defenders of south Britain but saw their chance and took over as the new elite rulers and the South Britains remained the slaves, or serfs and Villains. Feudal Law had arrived in South Britain. They are still there today as the English royals and aristocracy with some hereditary Peers still sitting in the HOL.
The Westminster Establishment remains a front but the truth is it doesn’t matter which Political party is in power for they are all, fully paid up, card carrying members, of the current, “Westminster Establishment”.
Westminster`s view of Scotland is that of a colony with a mere 5 million population and never to be taken seriously but rather indulged as you would a child. It is not considered a“ real“ country. But suppose we removed the name Scotland and substituted it for Norway, Finland, Denmark or New Zealand. Lets say Denmark was attached to England, how would the MSM, Westminster and the English population view this country in the north, very differently I would assert. They would regard their nearest neighbour as a legitimate country and treat it with dignity and respect. And it is precisely because Scotland is not seen as a Denmark or Norway or indeed as a legitimate country that it is ignored and treated as a pathetic little possession, and that attitude will persist until the majority of Scots get off their knees and vote for independence.
mr peffers
South Briton leaders, who were already being raided by the Germanic Tribes, mainly from the Scandinavian regions of Europe, invited these Angles, Jutes,
what precipitated vortigern’s invite to the anglo saxons to come help defend them was a huge sea born Pictish attack on london via the thames
Steven Gethins is on fire in Westminster today! Brandishing the 600 page White Paper published a year before the Independence Referendum and comparing it to the vacuous slogans produced by the Tory government more than 6 months after the EU Referendum. Cant wait to watch it all on Reporting Scotland tonight.
@BBC Scotland Tells Lies says: 31 January, 2017 at 1:30 pm:
“Why has EFTA not been pushed as a possible alternative to the EU before.”
Good Question but …
” … I think EFTA is the answer to all our prayers.
I am positive that EFTA will deliver Scottish Independence.”
I’ll give you a couple, or three, good reasons why joining it won’t be the answer to anything very much.
The first reason is that EFTA almost instantly said they did not want Scotland as a member state but mainly because Nicola was saying we would be in EFTA but still part of the United Kingdom, (of Greater England).
The second is that to be an EFTA Member and still trade with Europe means paying the same membership fees but NOT getting a say in the EU.
The third is that Nicola actually wants Scotland to be independent and free to choose what Scotland wants – not what other states wants Scotland to want.
It is all part of the long-game of being able to truthfully say, “We tried to find ways to be in both the EU and UK but they both made it impossible to do so”.
@Shrodingers cat We certainly are. Many cats amongst many pigeons. Wishing the Catalans every success.
And yes, WM are set for one hell of a kicking from the Spanish Gov re Gibraltar, especially if they no longer have/look likely to not have Scotland’s fishing waters as a bargaining chip. The EU look like they’ll back Spain after referring to Gibraltar as Europe’s last colony (or words to that effect) yesterday.
I’m putting my money on no deal, UK out of the EU unilaterally in a huff before the two year art 50 maximum period is up. So we need to be organised and ready for that possibility.
Anyway, there’s a bit of a shit storm on the horizon and there’s only so much spinning and negative-coverage-avoiding UK gov and the media can do at once. They’re going to be fighting on far too many fronts to achieve the type of unified anti-indy campaign we saw last time, if our timing’s right (I hope).
@galamcennalath says: 31 January, 2017 at 1:33 pm:
” … A TORY MP has insisted Theresa May is listening to Nicola Sturgeon but the priority is to secure the best Brexit deal for the UK.””
Would that be the same, “UK”, that just had it’s, “UK”, a.k.a. parliament of the country of England, rule that Scotland ceased to exist and that the Westminster Parliament, a.k.a. the only existent Parliament of the country of England, is, “attempting to secure the best Brexit deal for the UK, a.k.a the country of England Parliament?
Robert Peffers says:
” … I think EFTA is the answer to all our prayers.
I am positive that EFTA will deliver Scottish Independence.”
I’ll give you a couple, or three, good reasons why joining it won’t be the answer to anything very much.
The first reason is that EFTA almost instantly said they did not want Scotland as a member state but mainly because Nicola was saying we would be in EFTA but still part of the United Kingdom, (of Greater England).
true, but they said we couldnt be part of efta UNLESS scotland was independence
The second is that to be an EFTA Member and still trade with Europe means paying the same membership fees but NOT getting a say in the EU.
efta/eea is a temporary holding position to win indyref2. not having 6 meps being able to vote in the eu parlaiment until we are independent and hold an euref on further eu integration, seems a small price to pay to ensure a victory for yes in indyref2?
The third is that Nicola actually wants Scotland to be independent and free to choose what Scotland wants – not what other states wants Scotland to want.
presently the efta/eea option is nicola’s compromise to remain in the uk, which will no doubt be rejected
It is being mooted that the efta/eea option should be the initial destination of an independent scotland, ie, the option we will be defending during indyref2
It is all part of the long-game of being able to truthfully say, “We tried to find ways to be in both the EU and UK but they both made it impossible to do so”.
I agree with that, I dont know anyone who believes that treeza will take scotlands wishes into consideration and that indyref2 is not now an absolute certainty, I think the announcement of indyref2 is very close now
link to youtube.com
@soutron
I’m putting my money on no deal, UK out of the EU unilaterally in a huff before the two year art 50 maximum period is up. So we need to be organised and ready for that possibility.
even with the best will in the world, 2 years wont be enough time to negotiate a trade deal, indeed, i was under the impression that this was a brexit negotiation, the uk can only negotiate a trade deal after it has left
also, saying that the uk is out of the single market is a binary option, out is out, it leaves little to negotiate. we might not have 2 years to hold indyref2
we really do need to be prepared for this possibility
also, the default position of voting No will be staying in a uk with wto tariffs, which in the event of yes would definately mean a hard border at berwick
Posted also on last thread few minutes ago, more relevant here now I think.
I have expressed no desire for EU or EFTA membership because right where we are now I would accept either scenario rather than none at all.
Losing Indy2 will mean none at all and the SG and their panel of experts who have looked at this are obviously taking seriously the idea of EFTA membership.
Why might this be? Well for a start our biggest trading partner the rUK will not be in Europe and with full EU membership for an Independent Scotland we would have to abide with any trade agreements that the EU makes with rUK. This will likely mean tariffs between Scotland/rUK.
Of course this wasn’t the case in 2014 where everyone assumed that the rUK would be remaining as a member of the EU therefore if Scotland too was in the EU trade would carry on pretty much as before between Scotland and England.
This is far from the case now and is one of the reasons that you are hearing of the mythical UK “Single Market”. UK trade is worth 4 times more than EU blah blah blah. I don’t want tariffs between us post Independence as I think this will harm both economies and we have no idea at this stage what any final agreement between the EU and rUK will look like.
Most importantly though is that we have to win Independence first, does anyone really believe that before we have this referendum and assuming it is before Brexit has happened that the EU will have guaranteed Scotland would continue as the partner in place of the UK?
During negotiations between UK and EU on exit, the EU will turn around and announce Scotland can continue. Personally I see that as far fetched. So if I’m right we will be fighting Indy2 with the same lies that we got in Sept 14.
You will be out of the EU and have to reapply.
You will be at the back of the queue behind Turkey, Bosnia ect.
Spain will veto you and you won’t be able to join.
Now a statement from the leaders of the 4 EFTA countries saying of course Scotland would be welcome as member of EFTA I would think would be much easier to achieve. If it’s not then it’s not.
Once again the next Independence Referendum will be all about propaganda and public perception. If we had an open door to free movement and the single market in place BEFORE the referendum through EFTA, that would wipe out much of the propaganda at a stroke.
I honestly cannot believe we would get any kind of commitment from the 27 EU member states BEFORE we have a referendum or Brexit. It would kill any negotiations between the UK and EU stone dead.
As I said I’m not arguing nor supporting EFTA over the EU or vice-versa. Just what could bring the greatest number of votes over to the Yes side. The SG is right to consider all options
Well, now we know. A considerable element of the Indyref 2 campaign must be to form a Scottish Republican Army, which will immediately trigger Torrance’s predicted Scottish Loyal Defence Regiment, who will start killing each other and blowing up statues of Queen Victoria.
We will of course extend our fight for freedom to England and blow up shopping malls, and ‘assassinate’ prominent Unionist politicians.
Then pehaps May and the Mad Dogs who are determined to isolate England from the rest of the world, wil be forced by psychopathic violenece to ‘grant’ Scotland its independence but maintain a ‘seamless frictionless border’, just like they have on the island of Ireland.
Before MI6 come to take me away, I am of course talking nonsense.
When the 27 become embroiled with May and her puppets in April, there will be no EU support for Project Fear as we begin campaigning for Indyref 2. Quite the opposite, in fact.
Much of what the EU values from the UK’s membership actually resides in Scotland, and therefore it serves our European cousins well to back our campaign for an Independent Scotland to remain in Europe.
Our North Atlantic strategic position, our timber, fish, agriculture, beef, Universities, oil, gas, wind and wave technology, our thriving Finance Sector, and so on, will be more than welcomed by our European partners.
Japanese and German car manufacturers will be busting a gut to move North back into Europe.
I favour a hard border with England personally, if they dig their heels in and restrict freedom of movement and opt out of the Single Market. When England morphs into the 51st US State, I don’t want Scotland flooded with unregulated American beef, or 6 months’ old New Zealand Lamb.
I border on the teasing here, but my argument contains a kernel of logic and good sense.
It always seems to be a one way argument; that we’re all bursting a gut to be able to travel trade and work in Merrie Old England, even after Brexit, which seems rather strange.
If England develops a ‘light touch’ to trading rules and standards, I would demand a hard border at Gretna and North Berwick, tvm.
I’ve not watched the Brexit debate as yet; I may or may not catch up with it later. It sounds like the usual same old same old.
England is leaving, and considers Scotland to be part of, no strike that, a helpless occupied colony of, the English Empire.
We don’t matter. We are serfs, and will do as we are told, or else.
The ‘or else’ is the laughable bit.
Ruth Davidson and David Mundell are merely English agents provocateurs. They don’t give a damn about Scotland, or the citizens of this remarkable nation of ours.
It’s all going as predicted.
Where’s Blair ‘Farage’ McDougall? Emigration will be a big issue in Indyref 2 , McDougall?
Project Fear 2. Vote Yes and we’ll be flooded with Roamnians and dusky faced refugees?
Aye right. Bring it on.
I suspect that in this context Westminster listening is more in lines of this,
link to everything2.com
Mongol General: We have won again. That is good! But what is best in life?
Mongol Warrior: The open steppe, fleet horse, falcon on your wrist, wind in your hair!
Mongol General: Wrong! Conan, what is best in life?
Conan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women!
Mongol General: That is good.
The more I see and hear from Westminster, the more I want to break away. No voters need to see and hear the contempt for Scots.
The Unionist Case in a sentence from MP Sammy Wilson – “We don’t care how you [Scotland] voted
link to twitter.com
Bercow is a good friend of greasy Vaz
Bu this is what we needed Stuart. Possibly, we may have taken the Yes message as far it could go. Maybe we now need Westminster in their arrogance, to highlight to the soft No’s (and hard ‘No’s) that no matter what, that Scotland will never be an equal with England, that it’s opinions matters not one jot, and that the Scots had better just keep quiet while the Unionists do the ‘big boy’ decisions.
At the end of the day, and no matter if even Unionist die-hards witter now and again that independence is inevitable, those same people will never accept that day …no matter what. Ever. We would need to drag them to Independence kicking and screaming.
So, instead, we need this. We need to be told with a smiling sneer that Scotland just has to put up, and shut up.
And it’s just like that young lad on the morning of the 2014 result when he said, let them vote Tory, let them hammer us, let them punish us, let them give us everything, let Scotland suffer under the worst of Tory rule …and then watch them realise that we were right.
That’s where we are right now. I wonder how many thousands-upon-thousands of ‘No’ voters (along with many EU nationals who also voted ‘No’) now regret that day …and are ready to take a new path.
We’re almost there. Patience is the key. We just let Westminster do our work for us now. And if someone asks …then we have a quiet word and explain it all to them. We’re almost there.
Looking at the Brexit timetable, it looks like May wants everything in place so she can trigger Article 50 at an EU summit in Brussels on the 9th and 10th of March.
Just noticed too that the SNP spring conference this year is on the 17th and 18th of March.
I don’t know, I might watch the coverage, you never know, something quite interesting might be announced.
Nana:
Yes, I feel the same. In addition to all the hopeful “touchy-feely” messages we high-mindedly produce, I feel somehow that a lot more of that London “we’re in charge, Scotch plebs, so knuckle under, bend over, and take it” attitude needs to get around to burst the self-denigrating bubble that too many PSB’s still obviously suffer from.
This “equal partners” guff needs to be shattered once and for all. Maybe the indy movement should be doing far more to propagate all these more accurate expressions of how our “masters” really feel about us.
Maybe then far more Scots would re-discover their missing backbone.
Today in Parliament there as a lively debate on the Brexit Bill.
Tory PM Theresa May: “Brexit means Brexit”
Tory MP Sir Nicholas Soames “woof, woof”
Tory MP Jacob Rees-Mogg: “blew a large raspberry”
SNP MP Stephen Gethins “Scotland …”
Tory Speaker John Bercow “Ordure, ordure, the dishonourable members for S******d should know language like that is not allowed in this House of disrepute”
After a division much like the UK itself, the motion was passed by 320 to 66 with Labour abstaining.
Ushers then brought in the laxatives and took out the filled
chantieschamber pots.@One_Scot says: 31 January, 2017 at 2:13 pm:
“‘That isn’t just a phrase. Actually it symbolises the sort of seamless, frictionless border that we want to see in the future’”.
I really can’t see why the reasonably intelligent persons living in Scotland cannot see past the end of their noses.
There is absolutely no chance in this old World that the de facto parliament of the Country of England is going to be able to get an open border in either the EU or the Schengen member states. Both these organisations believe in open borders between them but exclude the rest of the World.
Having one would mean neither organisation had a reason to exist. The Schengen members are :-
•Austria; •Belgium; •Czech Republic; •Denmark; •Estonia; •Finland; •France; •Germany;
•Greece; •Hungary; •Iceland; •Italy; •Latvia; •Lithuania; •Luxembourg; •Malta; •Netherlands; •Norway; •Poland; •Portugal; •Slovakia; •Slovenia; •Spain; •Sweden; •Switzerland; •Liechtenstein.
Any open border allowing non-members to walk in and out as and when are never going to get past either the EU or Schengen areas without at least one of the members vetoing the de facto English Parliament’s request.
There simply will not be anything other than a total ban on the de facto Parliament of England getting to leave a great big hole in the borders. There would be a steady stream of illegals, terrorists and smuggled goods including weapons, pouring both ways through the hole in the defences.
england imports from scotland, oil, water, gas, fish, petrol, whisky, electricity, seed potatoes and stud beef, these commodities mae up 90% of all scotlands trade with the ruk
none of these can be sourced in england, a wto tariff between us would mean they would be 10% more expensive to buy in england, they dont have the choice but to buy them.
on the other hand, englands import into scotland, cars, electrical goods, foodstuffs, crisps, cola etc, can and will be sourced elsewhere in the eu at 10% cheaper than from england
westminsters hand is very weak here
Always thought Ken Clarke was a bit bombastic and uppity but boy did he stick the knife in today, in a friendly way.
Nobody telling him how to vote.
pnr
I honestly cannot believe we would get any kind of commitment from the 27 EU member states BEFORE we have a referendum or Brexit. It would kill any negotiations between the UK and EU stone dead.
possibly, but im not sure who that will disadvantage more, the eu or the uk, also catalonia has already secured support from 11 eu countries
if we apply for eea membership via article 50, as succeding member to the uk, we would only require a majority of 27, not unanonymity
ronnie anderson says:
A wee break from all the heavy stuff here. Watched the you tube Hitler and Indy2, good fun.
I do not know if you watched the one after that, it is an interview with the guy who played Hitler, not so happy at first with what people have to his serious part. The funniest part for me he was moaning that his wife now gives him a seig Hail, and addresses him as Hitler!
@schrodingers cat
That’s my point, we can’t claim we will be staying in the EU after Brexit and before the referendum without the commitment of all the other 27 member states.
We could though claim that we will be staying in the free market, have freedom of movement ect. With a commitment from just the 4 EFTA states and a simple majority of the EU states.
@ one Scot
I think that’s the speculation now. Yesterday’s meeting in Cardiff produced nothing, Mike Russell said there are 60 days for the gov’t to show they listen to Scotland.
There is speculation that an announcement could be made at the Spring SNP conference, certainly that will be the issue front and centre.
I agree with what others have posted, the EFTA option has to be explored, and ruled out. My first preference has always been to be independent within the EU for the market, and for the full role we could play as a member.
At this point, I just want out!!
One_Scot says:
Maybe, but I don’t think we will be quite at IndRef2 time.
By then we will know Scotland gets no special deal. Also, all our MPs amendments to the Article 50 Bill will have been ignored.
However, it may not be absolutely clear that the UK as a whole will be out of the single market. May et al certainly appear to be saying it will be a hard Brexit but we really need that to be definite policy.
If, by mid March, May has declared they will definitely not be seeking single market access, and the EU say it’s not on offer without free movement of people, then it could be all systems go.
Up until now everyone’s thinking seems to have been we need to wait until the final stages of negotiations and the outcome clear. However, if May et al aren’t even contemplating an outcome acceptable to Scotland, then it may all happen sooner than previously thought.
One side of my brain champing at the bit, the other side anxious not to go too soon!
Alberto Costa, whadda madda you?
All he does in wm is complain about how his a mamma and a pappa wanna keepa leevin in a breetan, a farkin lawyer anaw, jeezuz whadda wastea taxa paya mannie.
Oh, anda nevva foggeddaa, ESSENPEEA BADDA!
@G4jeepers
Is there some purpose for you mocking people’s accents?
@robertknight says: 31 January, 2017 at 2:30 pm:
“Just checked an item on RT news website with the same old Spanish claim that we’d be at the back of the queue to join.”
In the first place read who is being quoted as the source.
The truth is that the official Spanish Government line is that Spain will not object to Scotland being accepted as a member state of the EU. They stated that the Scotland/UK situation has no similarities to the Spanish situation.
If you know your Spanish Geography you would know Spain has 17 autonomous Regions and each one, including Catalonia, has far more autonomy that Scotland has ever had from the de facto parliament of England at Westminster.
The main guy quoted as claiming Spain would object was always actually Barroso and he is Portuguese – not Spanish.
Hi Robert Peffers
In my opinion EFTA is the safe route to Independence. It would bring the farmers and fishing industry with us. it would also satisfy the business and financial sectors.
We are trying to win over frightened NO Voters and I think EFTA would do that.
If you listen to what Nicola and Alex Salmond say, they use the phrase “membership of the Single Market”. Hopefully they go down the EFTA route and sort out full EU membership on the other side.
And wouldn’t it be great if Nicola announces the date for IndyRef2 at the Spring Conference in Aberdeen in March.
@Bob MACK says: 31 January, 2017 at 2:36 pm:
“Given that Mr Tusk and Guy Ver ( something) have today stated that the USA is becoming a danger to the EU, then what is to prevent the EU insisting Ireland has a hard border with the North? Just curious.”
I believe that the EU has already done so and remember TM was talking about soft Brexit until she spoke with the EU. Then she changed her tune. There is no way that the EU would accept an open border between the EU and anywhere.
I think Her Nabs cam awa frae the EU wi a muckle flech ben her lug.
galamcennalath @ 17:24:
Actually, this touches a very sensitive spot for me. I’ve always wondered if the Tory “hard Brexit” story is just a bluff and that it will be a softie exit instead, dressed up in some way to divert the great Leaver unwashed.
Unlikely still, but the English do have a great genius for compromise, and business is the Tories’ main interest. It would also be a coup for perfidious Albion to short-circuit the SG’s careful attempts at compromise.
Which is why for me all this EEA/EFTA promo stuff has definite dangers. It could backfire and stall indyref2 completely.
“SNP MPs attempt to block Brexit bill…..Stephen Gethins …. Scotland had voted to Remain and was now being taken out of the EU by a Conservative Party that just posted its worst general election result since 1865 in Scotland.”
link to archive.is
So far with regards to Brexit the Scottish Government, Nicola Sturgeon and her Ministers have played a blinder and in my view embarrassed the UK Government aided of course by the 56 SNP MP’s at Westminster and their MEP’s in Brussels.
Don’t forget either right after the vote to leave the EU a panel of experts from law, finance, academics, business and European matters was set up to advise the SG. They were the “Standing Council on Europe”.
I doubt they have been sitting on their backsides these past 7-8 months and much of our strategy going into these final weeks will be based on discussion between these advisers and the Scottish Cabinet. I’ll trust them to chose the best path but wouldn’t be at all surprised if the only thing open to us at voting time in another Independence referendum regarding the EU was the EFTA option.
That’s not to say of course that full EU membership AFTER securing Independence would not be an option. The main question is what would be available to us BEFORE any referendum? If anything at all.
Another reason EFTA would suit us is that it would cancel out the Spanish scare stories and also the Euro scare stories. because in EFTA Spain has NO say in who becomes a member, it is up to the existing four members and they also don’t use the Euro in EFTA.
In seems to me that EFTA is a win win for the Indy movement.
If it helps us win our Independence then why not at least get it out there so we can debate it.
@yesindyref2
You kiddin?
That ‘person’ mocks an entire country every time he opens his wee gabshite mooth.
Just gettin a wee bit o light relief.
Robert J. Sutherland
thats why we should wait until the negotiations start, i think we will have a clear idea of the direction of travel very quickly
nothing which has been said so far by the eu is official and cant be taking as fact
we just need to bide our time
WOS archive links now over on O/T.
I am having some problems locating the web page that existed before, showing a graphed, up to date historical data of Electricity export from Scotland to England.
I did however find a pdf highlighting the generating capacities of the 4 home countries in 2015. Key points to me are:
link to gov.uk
1. In 2015, a record 29% of all electricity generated in Scotland was exported to England.
2. 25% of Scottish generation in 2014 was coal. this dropped to 16% in 2015, and will drop to around 4% in 2016 due to Longannet going offline in March 16th of this year.
3. England is a huge net importer of electricity, importing from France, Holland and Scotland. In 2015 England imported 34,500 GW of electricity overall, with 14,500 GW coming from Scotland and the rest from Europe.
Some of the future high voltage DC projects to come on stream will be :
link to en.wikipedia.org
2017: Hunterston to Flintshire, Wales – 2.2 GW DC link, 600KV subsea.
2019: France to UK – 1 GW link
2019: Belgium to UK – 1 GW link
2020: France to UK – 1 GW link
2020: Norway to UK – 1.4 GW link
2024: Peterhead England – 2 GW link.
The Scottish Power (aka Iberdrola) spat with National grid that resulted in the closure of Longannet to me looks like a crazy decision. Typical, short sighted and not in the National interest. It means that electricity that could have been sourced from Scotland now may need to be sourced from abroad. As if the balance of payments is not bad enough already. Probably National Grid reasoned that either Iberdrola would not go ahead with the closure, or they had already pre-agreed prices at a cheaper rate from Europe.
In fact, the Dutch and the French already will be rubbing their hands with glee at the future profits to come from Brexit.
BBC Scotland Tells Lies @ 17:44:
This is another gross Leaver canard that needs to be whacked. If we remain in the EU, Spain can’t make us leave. Period. End of.
And what are these “Euro scare stories”, pray? Do you mean the “straight bananas” and “cubical tomatoes” beloved of the right-wing media? Play by their rules, eh…?
BBC Scotland Tells Lies
Im not sure if efta alone guarantees access to the single market, i think eea membership is also required for that
@G4jeepers
Alberto Costa is Scottish, born in Scotland, studied in Scotland, trained in Scots law.
He’s a dick but not because he has a Spanish name.
Robert J. Sutherland
scare stories worked in indyref1, no pensions, cant use pound etc
jim sillers pointed out that, although he had no doubt at all that on the morning after a yes vote, westminster would undoubtably be looing to negotiate a currency union, it was after all the most sensible option, we let outselves be cornered by the unionist scare story of not even being able to use the pound
we are better prepared this time but we need to tighten up against the argument about scotlands trade with england, the unionists have already invented the idea of a single uk market to throw at us, it is a rubbish idea but that doesnt mean it wont win indyref2 for the
@Soutron says: 31 January, 2017 at 2:56 pm:
“We can expect more Spanish veto threats etc until then from the usual suspects. “
I get very tired of having to correct those on this forum who repeat unsubstantiated claims from the MSM.
Go read this from the Wee Ginger Dug :-
link to thenational.scot
I watched what Rayjoy actually said and it certainly was not what the lying MSM claimed he had said. I afterwards read The Wee Ginger Dug and it only confirmed what I had watched.
Rayjoy has never said Spain would veto a Scots bid to remain, or join, the EU.
schrodingers cat,
Yes, timing is all. But we can’t stall for ever. We’re getting fractious enough as it is, and there’s always the risk of Brexit normalisation.
The EU can’t give any formal support for Scotland as a diplomatic necessity. The SG may have gleaned a far better idea than any of us from their informal chats, and that will no doubt have a strong influence on its plans and actions. But it seems to me that the positive signals are all there for anyone who cares to read them. It’s in the EU interest to retain Scotland if it can. We’re a future major energy supplier, for one thing.
My own guess is that Nicola and Co. will see all SNP amendments to the Brexit Bill trashed, just as with the Scotland Bill of late, will wait until TM invokes Art.50, then calls indyref2. Campaigning to run currently with the dawning reality of what Brexit will really mean.
@cat
EFTA has its own trade agreements, but is not in the single market. It needs the EEA – or bilateral agreements. All EU members on the other hand are in the EEA.
EFTA is the way to go, it will make life easier for the people of Scotland. We can, when we want, then have a referendum to fully apply for EU membership.
Some people are unsure about the EFTA route, and yes we will pay into EU coffers, and yes we may not have a say at the top table.
However, consider where we are at this time, are we happy with all the abuse we receive in this thankless “union”,one that steals all our assets, makes us help fund infrastructure in London and all the rest.
Are we happy with UK austerity,are we happy with poverty of all kinds and the exponential growth of food banks, are we happy hosting the nuclear toys of a loony right wing government and their proxies. I could go on.
No, we should not be accepting any of that. EFTA would work for Scotland as it does for others. We need to grab it and set to ending this farce of a “Union”.
@Robert J. Sutherland
Can you tell me exactly how it would be possible to convince people we will remain in the EU before we have a second referendum unless we get an absolute commitment from the other 27 EU states?
I ask simply because if we can’t convince those that voted No and Remain that we will remain in the EU after Independence before a vote then they are likely not to believe us. We will have the same lies and scaremongering as we did first time around. why would they change their mind that we will have to go to the back of the queue or that Spain could veto us?
Just as they chose to do in the first referendum, they are more likely to believe the propaganda without a cast iron guarantee.
A cast iron guarantee of EFTA/EEA membership is better than nothing at all if it brings us extra votes for Yes.
schrodingers cat @ 18:02:
Granted. It’s about the only string the Unionists have left in their bow.
But actually, remaining in the EU is by far our best defence against that ploy. To have the biggest trading block in the world at our back, and not be out all on our own. Against a paper tiger of an rUK that’s having to slavishly pander to Trump as its only friend.
Thepnr @ 18:11:
I can only re-state the obvious: if we haven’t left, we don’t have to join any queue or be subject to any Spanish veto! It’s only if we let ourselves get dragged out by England that we make ourselves vulnerable to such scares. Duh.
We don’t know what will happen from the EU side once Art.50 gets sprung by TM. They may offer Scotland “holding status” until the talks are resolved, as has already been intimated.
Why on earth would be throw away all that powerful support for an option that falls between two stools?
O/T
New blog from the constitution unit
What might parliament do with the Article 50 bill
link to constitution-unit.com
Al Dossary
excellent find, can we compile a table indicating exactly what our trade with england is?
eg, if 80% of of scotlands trade is with england(a very common lie being bandied about by the unionists at the moment) what is the exact amount of our trade which is in commodities the ruk cant source locally? eg electricity,, petrol etc, we need to know these figures
one of the reasons the fishermen supporter brexit was to rid u waters of eu fishermen, they didnt care about the possibility of a 10% wto tariff increase in price to their clients in europe, simply because their fish is sold before it is caught, the fish of spains shores are gone, they have collared the market etc
@Robert J. Sutherland
Nice side step.
Can you tell me exactly how it would be possible to convince people we will remain in the EU before we have a second referendum unless we get an absolute commitment from the other 27 EU states?
Robert J. Sutherland says:
Granted. It’s about the only string the Unionists have left in their bow.
But actually, remaining in the EU is by far our best defence against that ploy.
correct, it will be difficult for bt2 to argue for staying with the uk for financial security when it is crashing and burning
eg, I see brexiteers arguing that a 20% drop in the value of the £ is a good thing?? clever economics??
a mixture of delusion and dishonesty
we need to go on the offensive and highlight every company which is leaving the uk, every job loss due to brexit etc. time the gloves came off
Robert J. Sutherland & pnr
to remain inside the eu and hold indyref2 before the 2 year period would be preferable, but that 2 year period is only a maximum, the u could leave the eu within 2 weeks of the start of negotiations should it wish
still being inside the eu, along with the uk, when we hold indyref2 is not something we have complete control
a holding pen might be considered but only if we have announced we are having indyref2
I wouldnt put it past westminster to try a stunt like this, just to head of scottish indy
i see where you are going with this
remaining in the EU is by far our best defence against that ploy. To have the biggest trading block in the world at our back, and not be out all on our own.
remaining as an efta/eea accomplishes the same thing robert
@Thepnr
I think indyref2 will not be called unless there is a rock solid commitment from the EU leaders how Scotland will transition into the EU in place of the UK.
I know what I would do if I were a EU negotiator on Brexit.
However, the SNP will have been working on this since brexit was announced after GE2015 so I think they will have a plan – unlike the tory and UKip Brexiteers.
If there are solid guarantees from the EU, then it will be game over for the Union.
So if Nicola goes for indyref2 then she will not be doing it without some serious backing from the EU leaders.
Article 50 – tick tock…
Roberts, what are you not getting here? I’ve said several times that WE know that the unionist arguments re the Euro, Spanish vetos etc are rubbish but we aren’t the ones who need to be convinced. The Spain thing has reared its head in the press again today. The people we need to convince are those who didn’t buy it last time. Do you really want to go to the people again with no cast iron EEA etc?
@Thepnr says: 31 January, 2017 at 5:20 pm:
“That’s my point, we can’t claim we will be staying in the EU after Brexit and before the referendum without the commitment of all the other 27 member states.”
Rather a large and nebulous assumption there, Thepnr.
You assume that in the first place Scotland would be out of the EU on England’s coat tails. Yet there is nothing to back up that bland assumption. Except the MSM and UK government spin.
On the other hand there is much evidence to support the claim that Scotland will not be on the outside looking in but still on the inside looking out.
There are no EU rules, laws or other legal mechanisms to take away any EU citizens citizenship from them against that citizens will.
Now the whole point of the EU is to guarantee EU citizenship to its citizens and each and every one of them holds at least dual citizenship. How then is the EU to remove their citizenship from them?
It would require the EU parliament to pass new laws and that may require unanimous vote of all 28 Member states but would probably exempt the UK, a.k.a. English parliament. It would also mean they would lose all credibility by expelling citizens against their will.
It would also risk Scotland becoming independent and NOT applying to re-join a union that had rejected them. We might swan off and join some other trade area where we were better appreciated. Japan, China, Russia – who knows?
Furthermore, the reason that May got short shrift with her tentative early approach to the EU was because of the importance of EU citizenship.
She was first of all pushed to the back of the queue and made to wait for the parliament to deal with the more important EU parliamentary business. Then only seen after many EU Members had left. Then she got the flea in her lug that no negotiations were going to take place until the rules were followed to the letter. Those rules included that she tendered a formal Article 50 Request for the UK Government to leave the EU.
Now the EU has no rules, laws or other legal mechanisms for member states to leave the EU against their democratic will. The EU people are not daft and they know that all they need do is rule that as the UK is officially actually not a country but obviously a bipartite Kingdom then there is no difference between the two kingdoms as to which could claim to be the legacy member state and Scotland voted to stay while England voted to leave.
It doesn’t take a Solomon to decide to let those who voted to go should be allowed to go and those who voted to stay be retained as, subject to renegotiated terms, the legacy member state. By doing so the EU retains its core values. The Scots get what they voted for and the English get what they wanted and the EU gains an ally and loses a thorn in its flesh.
@Robert Peffers
Your missing the point! If UK is out then we’re out, we will have seceded our EU citizenship courtesy of UK negotiation. We MUST win the next referendum how best to do that?
Go down the same road with all the usual EU/Euro/Currency scare/propaganda stories? Or find another way?
Last attempt from a different approach. We need to persuade more to vote Yes if we are to win. Agreed?
Who are we targeting?
Well those that voted No obviously first time around.
Who are the softest targets?
Likely those that voted No but to remain in the EU.
How could that best be achieved?
By obtaining a guarantee from the other 27 member states that they would inherit the UK’s place in the EU BEFORE we have a vote in another referendum.
Is this likely?
No, not in my view. Negotiations with the UK exit would make this very difficult and highly unlikely.
What are you left with?
Obtaining an agreement from the 4 EFTA states and 14 of the EU states that Scotland could become a member of both EFTA and EEA. This is clearly easier to obtain than agreement NOW with all 27 member states of the EU. Catalonia already has agreement with 11 EU member states of their acceptance into the EU if they become Independent.
Why take this route, this is clearly not full membership of the EU.
Correct, it is not but it could be thought of as transitional with a view to application for full member status at a time in the future of our choosing. Meantime we guarantee citizens of Scotlnd that they would remain in the Single Market, continue to have free movement within the EU countries and the predicted 80,000 job losses wouldn’t happen. In fact I believe a net gain of jobs would occur if rUK was out of the single market and Scotland stayed in.
schrodingers cat @ 18:45 & 18:47:
That’s an interesting hypothetical, and not entirely impossible. A hard and fast exit! Extremely unlikely, I would say though, given the complexities, since it would put trade between the UK and the EU at serious risk. But if it were to happen, that’s when the EU’s intentions might become clearer, since they could then choose to invoke the “holding pen” they themselves freely offered. That’s all pure speculation at the moment, of course, but why discount it so readily out of hand?
No, with respect, it does not. Nowhere near. How can it? A bloc of 4 (or so?) whose actual existence hangs off the EU anyway, as compared to a bloc of 27?
———-
As for raising the spectre, as some are doing, about EU scare stories such as this “Spanish veto” nonsense, you don’t have to be at all clued-up to see that’s an obvious bust. While we’re in, we stay in. Judge further by the EU reaction when Art.50 kicks in.
Turning to this EEA/EFTA thing out of fears like these is conceding unnecessary ground. It’s “running from the sound of imaginary gunfire” before any shooting has actually started.
Let’s see how things develop over the next few weeks before we give an inch (or mm!) from where we are now.
Look at it another way. The people of Scotland have spoken, and spoken clearly. To seriously consider reneging on that now, before anything has even begun, what does such weakness tell our opponents..?
@schrodingers cat
==================
References for all that please (and not to mythology either as Vortigern is).
@Robert J. Sutherland
What do you mean by ” While we’re in, we stay in.”
That’s stating the blooming obvious but the only way NOW we can possibly remain IN is by voting YES to Independence. We need to convince No/Remain voters over to our side and put their fears at ease about Scotland’s membership of the EU BEFORE a referendum.
So I’ll ask you again and won’t be surprised if you ignore the question a third time.
Can you tell me exactly how it would be possible to convince people we will remain in the EU before we have a second referendum unless we get an absolute commitment from the other 27 EU states?
@Thepnr says: 31 January, 2017 at 7:24 pm
“Your missing the point! If UK is out then we’re out, we will have seceded our EU citizenship courtesy of UK negotiation. We MUST win the next referendum how best to do that?”
I’m not the one missing the point, Thepnr.
I gave you good reasons why the EU cannot just take away our individual citizenship. They would have to change, or break, many EU rules. laws and avowed aims that are the EU’s status quo and there is no clear EU way to do that.
Furthermore, it is obvious that we can quote the Treaty of Union as out evidence that the United Kingdom is not a country. It is a bipartite Kingdom and, as such, only one partner is attempting to say it is not. Not to mention that Westminster has set itself up as the de facto parliament of England but is still calling itself the United Kingdom. Yet there is no other Parliament of England.
Can you quote me a single bit of United Kingdom legislation where it states that a Kingdom is the same thing as a country? There isn’t any. Can you quote any UK legislation that a State is other than a political organ?
A state may act as a single unit but it is not, without legislation, a country. I’ll even quote you an example. The United States of America was just that in the beginning. In fact there were two political states The Union and the Confederation.
Not until the South surrendered did the United States of American legally become one federated country. The USSR is another example of a state composed of many countries but that split up into individual countries and some of the countries also split themselves up too.
Furthermore the EU’s stated aims include standing up for any distinct group of identifiable people’s inalienable right to self determination. It’s all there in EU law. There is more EU things that they are sworn to uphold, like Human & worker and individual person’s rights.
If they simply allow Scotland to be shafted by England they may as well hang up the Closed for Business signs on their front door for their whole reason for being will have ended at a stroke. They have, with Article 50, shown a willingness to stand by their own rules and laws.
Deary me Robert, the EU aren’t removing our EU citizenship. The UK will be negotiating it away. We’re still part of the UK and they are the member state or hadn’t you noticed yet?
Hitler on Indy ref2 someone posted earlier about this, here is the link superb.,
//m.youtube.com/watch?v=0dzWoHpk1UA
Thepnr @ 20:08:
I don’t know which of us is being more obtuse! =laugh=
I believe you have this exactly in reverse. The whole point is to have indyref2 before we are dragged out kicking by the UK. If we vote for independence, we will necessarily remain in the EU, and they don’t need to give us any guarantee. They can’t kick us out if we don’t want to go.
The only question that arises then is timing. If the SG decide to delay too long, or if the UK leave early, what happens?
If the SG funk it, that will be a huge strategic error, in my opinion. I’ve said this before: I don’t believe we can afford to wait much longer. Too many things can come along to upset matters, and we won’t have a better chance ever again. You have to take a wave on the crest, not on the afterflow.
If the UK go early, which I believe is very unlikely, that’s something else.
In either case, though, we need to wait for the EU reaction, which until now has necessarily been entirely muted, as it must be. That will not remain so. It’s the sleeping giant, but Art.50 will wake it up. I believe the “holding pen” option will be offered to us.
Robert You are missing the point again. I’m talking of how to persuade those that voted No but want to remain that we can guarantee they will at the very least remain in the single market BEFORE a referendum.
Your not getting it, we need to gain their votes NOW.
So to guarantee we remain in the Single Market we need to be in either the EU or EEA and this be ACCEPTED by the public to avoid all the usual lies/propaganda. This is my point. getting any guarantee would be much simpler if we focused on the EEA.
Now think hard about the consequences of your vote in a referendum!
You would be kicked out of the EU.
The Banks and Finance Institutions will leave your country.
The NHS would be finished.
There will be no old age pension- work until you drop.
Thousands of jobs will be lost.
Your currency values will plummet.
We are better together.
I’m actually lost now!
Can you confirm that all of the above was shite that the Westminster parties threw at Scotland in Indy Ref 1, and that everything is coming to fruition in Brexit.
You would need to be an immoral millionaire, a Tory, a Labour career politician, a half wit, or Willie Rennie
to even contemplate staying in the UK.
@Thepnr says: 31 January, 2017 at 8:16 pm:
“Deary me Robert, the EU aren’t removing our EU citizenship. The UK will be negotiating it away. We’re still part of the UK and they are the member state or hadn’t you noticed yet?”
Oh! I noticed, Thepnr, but if you have not noticed by this time that I’m a great one for checking every small detail before putting fingers to keyboard then perhaps I’m just wasting my time on this particular topic with you.
You speak of missing the point but I made the point that the EU are not so stupid as to not know the term United Kingdom refers to a bipartite Kingdom.
Just as I took the trouble to research Spanish history and geographic makeup when checking up their attitudes in regard to their own internal political problems with their autonomous regions.
I was also surprised there were 17 autonomous Spanish regions and, like Scotland, 6 of then had their own languages.
It also surprised me that even those regions with the least autonomy were far more autonomous than what Westminster claims to be a Scotland with the most autonomous powers in the entire universe.
The point of all that is I also took the trouble to actually check up what the Westminster Propaganda wing claims as the Spanish saying they would vote against Scotland becoming an EU member. It never happened and My Rayjoy actually said that the Spanish problem with their most recalcitrant autonomous region, Catalonia, was entirely different from that of the UK and Scotland.
Now if you do not realise that the EU member states can clearly see that there are anomalies in the case of the United Kingdom vs Scotland case, (that seem to have flown well over your own head), I realise they do indeed see the anomalies.
I’ve highlighted them enough on Wings but here we go again. The real case is being presented by Westminster as the United Kingdom vs Scotland but any fool can see that is not the case and cannot be the case.
The truth is that during Indyref1 the Westminster Government claimed the United Kingdom was not in fact a United Kingdom.
To that end they commissioned a couple of alleged experts on international law to draw up a paper. In that paper they implausibly claim that The Treaty of Union Extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as, ‘The United Kingdom’.
So, just for the interest let us examine their quite daft analysis.
First of all if indeed the Treaty of Union had done such a thing, (and there is nothing in the treaty that even hints that it did), then the real fact would be that there was no union in 1707 as there was then no kingdom of Scotland to be united with. Much less any other extant kingdom in the entire British Isles.
Yet they do not claim that it is a complete take over as the Kingdom of England. They state that the whole had become the United Kingdom so that means that the Kingdom of England had also ceased to exist yet they claim the whole is still, “The United Kingdom”.
If there isn’t a United Kingdom then how can they then separate the four countries up as individual countries and then NOT have a parliament of England but still claim Westminster is the United Kingdom Government?
Then to make things even more clearly utter madness they introduce EVEL and even although there is no actual Parliament of England they claim that no one can interfere with English Votes for English Laws but there are no elected members of a Parliament of England.
So even to the foreign MEPs it must be quite obvious that the so called United Kingdom does not actually exist any more and that Westminster is the de facto Parliament of England and there isn’t a single member elected to me a Member of the Parliament of England.
It defies common logic for it simply is illogical. They may have fooled themselves, they may have fooled lots of Scots and they even seem to have fooled lots of Wingers.
But they sure as hell have not fooled a great many members of the EU parliament who, standing back a bit further, can see the woods and not be blocked from doing so by the trees in the woods.
The EU has aims and rules and the way that Westminster has conducted itself against both the EU and Scotland, Wales and all Ireland breaks every high aim of the European Parliaments stated aims and rules.
There’s not really a route into the EEA except through the EU where it’s standard, and EDTA where it’s optional. EEA is jointly administered by the EU and EDTA “the two pillars”. Sounds good using buzzwords, but I hardly know what it means in real life.
Through the EU I presume we don’t need the assent of EFTA, though they’d have input. Through EDTA we need the assent of the EU. It’s done by “concensus” – whatever that means in real life.
I agree we’ll be far better off if we have an official nod from the EU. Before Trump I’d have said no chance, but it looks like the UK is diverging even more from the EU than before, so now it wouldn’t surprise me if by 2018 or even this year if Indy Ref 2 is called, the EU will make it plain that our membership of EU and EEA is pretty smooth sailing – and as part of the Brexit agreement. I guess that could include the EFTA route into the EEA.
I hope we do get that accord, it will help a lot.
Thepnr,
Maybe the nub of the difficulty is that we just don’t know yet what the official position of the EU is going to be. So some of us (like yourself) are trying to establish a “fallback position” just in case that is a bust. Which of course it could be, though perhaps others (like myself) have more confidence, and don’t think that’s what is actually going to happen when the chips go down.
It seems to me though that it’s precipitate at this stage to turn the SG’s attempt at an all-UK compromise into a full-blown referendum strategy. (Confusion about means and ends was always one of the risks of this SG approach.)
We need to wait until Art.50 is invoked, then see what the EU says. By all means be prepared for whatever that will be, but please, don’t let’s give up any ground before then.
There is a referendum result to defend. Out of principle. (Don’t usually have enough of that these days, do we?)
thanks for the link to the Hitler video, Lenny
Hope you all enjoy this little post which places it beside another couple of thoughts!!
Best to all
Ben
sorry – post left without link
my computer’s playing up – again!! link to eurofree3.wordpress.com
I’ve got laugh because if anyone complains loudly about stirring up division it is me. It seems though that unintentionally I may have when I had no intent to do so.
Just to be straight, I want to remain in the EU and I want Independence, Independence though has to be my priority because without that nothing else we discuss or argue about means a fig.
So, as a pragmatist, I won’t rock the boat if the SG were to come up with a plan that kept us in the Single market that did not include full EU membership at the time of the vote.
What’s far more important is getting that vote in the first place and that means destroying much of the lies surrounding EU membership. How that will be done will be up to the SG and their advisers. I’m happy with that.
I’m just prepping you guys so that you won’t be surprised if EFTA becomes the argument we go into the next Referendum with and when that happens! We’re all on the same side, I hope and no one will be surprised.
Independence is our goal, how we will get there? Well not so much.
The Hitler video is class – up there with the Hearts and Rangers ones from a few years back!
One question: how come we never hear about the UK’s debt when Scottish independence comes up? Whenever someone’s going on about ‘Aye, but we’re better off in the UK’ I never hear anyone mention the UK’s debt – over a trillion pounds which, honestly, I can’t wrap my brain around. How can anyone be better off saddled wi’ that?
Last night in HoC, Ed Miliband passionately decrying Trump’s ‘lunacy’, conveniently forgetting his ‘Control Immigration’ mugs and threat to establish hard border posts with an independent best friend (!) Tonight in HoC, Liam Byrne bitterly criticising the Leave campaign ‘lies’. The Guardian gushing about falling back in love with Ed and worrying about post-truth politics, conveniently forgetting all those Jim Murphy ‘rallys’ it could only manage to capture in close-up. Been there, done
that Scotlamd. Time to dust ourselves down and coe out fighting in round 2.
The EU will be looking for “a win” after Brexit
Scotland has been functioning under EU rules for 30 years
Scotland have a strong resource sector
Scotland are a beacon (solar powered) to the Greening of the planet.
Politically we represent a win over England for the EU
Business wise we are extremely attractive to the EU
The rest is just small details
Lenny’s link to the Hitler video doesn’t work by clicking on the link on his post. Just out of curiosity how did you guys get it?
Ignore the //m. at the start – copy from youtube on…
There’s also another link at 10.06 with it embedded in a blog.
Cheers H got it now.
Direct link and it is funny.
link to youtube.com
@Thepnr
Perhaps the point of the “senior SNP source” is to help generate debate, as people look up information to support EFTA against EU and vice versa, whichever they prefer.
Knowledge is power, and fear often comes from ignorance.
Good news.
Parliament is going to debate the petition – “Prevent Donald Trump from making a State Visit to the United Kingdom.”.
link to petition.parliament.uk
The debate is scheduled for 20 February 2017.
@yesindyref2
Let’s face it, the majority here are laymen and have only gained what little knowledge we have on these subjects because WE CARE to look at them.
We search on Google, do a bit of reading, in no way does it make us an expert but it very much does make us more knowledgeable. We read the posts of others and gain a little more knowledge everytime.
So we post stats, we might make mistakes then we are corrected. Good, the only stats worth reading are the correct ones.
Look at the links Nana posts, I’d guess I read 50% of them, sometimes more sometimes less. Not the point, for anyone that wants the knowledge the information there if you care to look.
Don’t know if this has been posted before but IScot fundraiser on the go, please support excellent high quality magazine
link to indiegogo.com
So we are getting the hardest of hardest Tory border that is much the same as the one we have just now,except the cash will no longer be a one way system.
Trade with England will drop it is inevitable since the loonies are determined to destroy their business market but trade with other nations like the RoI and Norway will counter that,and for the first time in 300 plus long years it will be Scotland dealing with the world direct.
So tories keep screaming you are doing a grand job just about as thick as the red tories.
Oh look Labour now want another EU ref or do they,who can tell nobody knows,do they know lol
Well well Labour how did you like our little hatchet job on your English branch,you see you like the tories are forgetting the most important players in all this,you should know them well they campaigned for you for many many years they are ex Labour,and with our pals the SNP,SSP,Greens(watching you lot) and anybody else who will wave the indy flag we will free Scotland and then we will crush you red tory scum and take our party back.
Haha how can you oppose A50 from westminster it is EU Parliament legislation,oh look its the fucking magic roundabout and 9 months later to come up with a bit of paper that TRIES and i mean TRIES to make it look like westminster is running the show,how pathetic.
Just sign the fucking Article 50 May you could have done it the week after the referendum.
Oh and all lib dems are fannies or liars sorry but its true or why would you be a lib dem ?
@Hermodr
================
Actually it was just under a Trillion when the Tories got in (due to Labour spend to save the banks) and under the Tories since has gone up to very near 2 Trillion (due to completely brainless austerity policies).
Stu Mac think the bank bailouts are not on the books, same as PFI debt and .public Sector Pension Liabilitys, last figures I saw said it would add another 1.trillion or so if it was .
Crash Gordon was under pressure to move to the same accounting system as the EU which he promised to do but never did, if he had done so the Additional hidden costs and liabilities would be on the books.
Heedtracker 59% wow , I got another Panel Base politics poll again tonight, however that’s two on the trip that have not worked when I tried to connect to it, strange that. Just hope that other polls back that 59% figure for Indy , if you take out the undecided figure of 9% it takes us over Nicola’s 60% 🙂